¶The firste Dialogue of the worlde possessed with Deuilles called, the deuill lette Loose.

WHen we laste commoned to­gether Theophrastus, tou­chyng the state of this pre­sent world, thou tookest oc­casion to talke of the age of thesame. And because thou waste then in­terrupted, I would thou wouldest now go foreward with that, that thou haste to saie therein.

Wee spake before of the greate coueteousnesse that raigneth now a daies emong men. Commenta­ries of Origen vpon Iob. There are certain commen­taries vpon the booke of Iob, whiche some saie are Origens, notwithstanding that the stile of the same is nothyng like Origens stile. And therefore, learned men whiche are able to iudge of suche thynges, take not Origen to be the aucthor thereof. But whosoeuer bee aucthor, he bringeth in cer­taine reasons, by whiche he doeth shewe [Page] the cause of that greate coueteousnesse of whiche we spake.

What saieth he?

He firste saieth: The cause of the greate co­ueteousnesse, whiche now raigneth. that this worlde draweth to an ende. And therefore maie be likened to a man that seeketh toward his ende as fast as he can: and this is the cause that he giueth his whole minde and study to dead thynges: that is to saie, to yearthly thynges, whiche are as it were dead in cō ­parison of heauenly thynges. For, as thei neither can deliuer men from corporall or spirituall deathe: So can thei not fol­lowe them after this deathe, but die with them.

Hereby then thou meanest, that the more y ^t men drawe to the yearthward, and the nearer thei are to their graue, the more desirous are thei of yearthly riches, whiche is but yearth as thei are. And so the lesse thei haue of it, the more thei desire it, how saiest thou Ierome.

Thou puttest mee in remem­brance of that that Cicero saieth (touching this matter) of old men. Couetous­nesse in age.

Why, what saieth he.

He compareth them to a warfa­ryng man, Cice. de senect. whiche hath a iourney to goe.

[Page]

The comparison is very proper. The voyage of mans life. For, all this life is nothyng but a voyage, whiche we haue to goe whilest we liue.

Now, thou knowest that thei, whiche haue a iourney to goe, make firste prouision of all suche thinges, as thei must carry with them, and suche thinges as are necessarie for them, whether it be victuals or money.

If thei did not so, thei might seme to want discretion.

But if thei be wise and discrete, thei will burthen thē selues with no more then thei needes must, but will make their preparation and prouision, accordyng to the iourney and waie that thei haue to go.

It is certaine, that thei whiche haue a hundreth or two hundreth miles to goe, haue neede of greater prouision, then thei whiche haue but fiue or sixe miles.

What wouldest thou saie then, if a man whiche hath but a mile or twoo to go, would be more carefull for his charge, make greater preparation for his voiage, then if he had fiue or sixe C. miles to goe.

I would take hym to be a verie fond and vndescrete man: for what nedeth he to trouble hym self more, then that the [Page] necessitie of his voyage requireth.

Yet the moste parte of old men doe so. Care [...]oges of a voyage▪ Cice. de senect. For, the elder that men waxe, the more couetous and niggishe thei are.

Then the lesse tyme thei haue to liue, the more feare thei haue to want.

Therfore Cicero saith, that these old dotards that are so nere and couetous, and are so afraied to want, the lesse waie thei haue to goe on their voiage, the more care thei haue for charges, and make the greater prouision.

In good sooth that is greate fol­lie and madnesse.

Therefore it is not said without good reason, that where as all other vices waxe old as men doe, coueteousnesse wa­xeth yong againe in age.

Then to our former talke, wee maie well saie the like of the worlde, and of his age, euen as Theophrastus did putte vs in mynde: and therefore goe foreward Theophrastus, with that that thou hast fur­ther to saie, as touchyng this matter.

The Author of those commenta­ries vpō Iob, whiche I euen now alledged vseth a comparison, touchyng the richesse that men gather in their age, not vnmeete [Page] for our matter.

Whereto doeth he liken them.

To hiddē starres. The vse of ri­chesse in age. For, as starres serue to no vse when thei are hidden, but when thei shewe light vnto men: so riches being hiddē serueth to no vse, whether thei kepe them locked in their treasures, with­out the vse therof, or els leaue their riches to the wide worlde, when thei them selues are hidden and laied vp in their graues.

Heereby then thou meanest to proue, that the gredie and insasiable desire of riches: whiche now adaies so ragyngly raigneth emong men, is a signe and wit­nesse of the old age & dotage of the world, wherby we maie iudge that the ende ther­of draweth nigh.

So it is. The fowerth booke of Es­dras. Chap. 5. Furthermore although the fourthe booke of Esdras bee holden for Apocripha, yet are there many good sen­tences contained therein, whiche well a­gree with the matter whereof we talke.

I would faine heare them.

He saieth thus: Aske the wombe of a woman and saie vnto her: why muste thou haue time before thou bringest forth? Require her to bryng forth tenne at once. And I saie, surely she can not, but by di­stance [Page] of tynie. Then saied he vnto me: so haue I deuided the nomber of the earth by tymes, when seede is sowne vpon it. For, as a yong child begetteth not that, that be­lōgeth to the aged, so haue I ordeined the time which I haue created. I asked again and saied: seyng thou hast now shewed me the waie, I will proceede to speake before thee: For our mother whom thou hast told me, is yong, draweth she nere vnto age? he answered me and said: aske a woman that traualleth, and she will tell thee. Saie vn­to her: Wherefore are not thei whom thou hast now brought forth, are those that were before thee, The stature of a man d [...] ­minished. but lesse of stature? And she shall answere thee, some were borne in the flower of youth, others were borne in the tyme of age, when the wombe failed. Cō ­sider now thy self, how that ye are lesse of stature, then those that were before you. And so are thei that come after you, lesse then ye, as the Creatures whiche now be­ginne to bee old, and haue passed ouer the strength of youth.

Me thinkes these wordes tende to shewe, that as the woman and the wo­mans wombe waxeth old, so waxeth the yearth old, whiche is the mother of vs all, [Page] and likewise all the worlde, with all thyn­ges therein contained.

We se the experiēce thereof dai­ly. But marke what thesame author saith further of this matter. The worlde (saieth he) hath loste his youth, and the tymes be­gin to waxe old. 4. Esder. 14. The deuision of the ages of the worlde. For the world is deuided into xii. partes, and x. partes of it are gone alreadie, and halfe of the tenth parte. And there remaineth that, whiche is after the halfe of the tenth part. Therefore set thine hous in order, and reforme thy people, and comfort suche of thē as bee in trouble, and now renounce the corruption. Let go frō thee mortall thoughtes, caste awaie from thee the burthens of men, and put of now thy weake nature, and set aside thy moste greeuous thoughtes, and haste thee to de­part from these tymes. For greater euils then those whiche thou hast seen now, shall thei cōmit. For, the weaker that the world is by reason of age, the more shall the euils be encreased vpon them that dwell there­in. The old age of the misera­ble worlde. For, the truthe is fled farre awaie, and lies at hande. And after he saieth: thus the worlde is sett in darkenesse, and thei that dwell therein are without light. For, thy lawe is burnt, therefore no man knoweth [Page] the thynges that are dooen of thee, or the workes that shalbe doen.

These wordes signifie not onely that the older the worlde waxeth, The decrease of vertue and increase of vice. the more the stature and age of man deminisheth, and the naturall strength weakeneth: but also that all vertues decaie in hym, and al vices increase.

If vertue faile, necessarilie vice whiche is the contrary muste raigne, sithe vice is want of vertue, as sicknesse is wāt of health, so that the more that healthe de­creaseth, A prophecie of Iesus Christ and S. Paule touchyng the laste daies. the more sicknesse increaseth. And therefore our sauior Christ, speaking of those laste daies, and of this age of the worlde, saied not without cause. Thinkest thou that whē the sonne of man shall come he shall finde any faithe or vprightnesse on the yearth. Matth. 14. For, Luke. 21. because that the wicked­nesse shall abound, 1. Tim. 4. all charitie shalbe cold. 2. Timo. 4. Heare also what S. Paule writeth: Now the spirite speaketh euidently, that in the latter tymes, some shall departe from the faithe, and shall giue heede vnto spirites of errour, and doctrines of Deuilles, whiche speake lies through hipocrisy, & haue their consciences burned with an hot iron. And againe: This knowe also that in the laste [Page] daies shall come perilous times. For, men shalbe louers of their owne selues, couete­ous, boasters, proude, cursed speakers, dis­obedient to parentes, vnthankfull, vnholy without naturall affectiō, truce breakers, false accusers, intēperate, fierce, dispising of them whiche are good, traitours, heady high minded, louers of pleasure, more thē louers of God, hauyng the shewe of godli­nesse, but haue denied the power thereof.

S. Paule hath iuste occasion to call those daies perilous, in whiche suche men shal liue, and without doubt we euen now are come to that line. For now adaies wee see fewe other but suche as S. Paule hath described vnto vs, after the manner that thou hast rehearsed.

Therefore there are fewe, which maie be compared to our auncient fathers in any thyng at all. For, as we haue alrea­die saied, euē as the force of vertue decrea­seth daie by daie, in this weakenesse and old age of nature, so contrary vice, loue of pleasure, impacience, vnstablenesse, vn­faitfulnesse, ignorance and folly encrease.

When I call to remembraunce what Ierome hath heretofore spoken, con­cernyng the difference of ages, and the de­caie [Page] thereof, I finde that it well agreeth with all that thou haste now spoken. So that if none cōplained, but onely the Pro­phetes and Apostles, and other the true seruauntes of God, of the corruption and disorder, whiche at all tymes hath been in the worlde, and the empairyng thereof, whiche hath alwaies increased, I would lesse maruaile. But we maie wel perceiue that the wickednesse of men hath been of long time marueilous, and that it hath frō tyme to tyme so woonderfully increased, that euen the Gentiles theim selues (who had not the true knowledge of God, nor perfect knowledge of vertue & vice,) haue made moste greeuous complaintes there­of, as Ierome hath often recited vnto vs.

I haue recited vnto you, the dis­criptiō that Ouid hath made of the 4, ages but I haue not yet shewed after what ma­ner Hesiodus describeth it, out of whom as well Ouid as other Poets, haue gathered their writinges. For as I haue before told Hesiodus is one of y ^e moste aūcient Greke Poets that wee haue. And because that whiche he writeth of this matter, agreeth very well with many of the pointes which Theophrastus hath alledged, but chiefly [Page] out of the bookes of Apocripha, whiche beare y ^e name of Esdras, I will recite that whiche he writeth of the 4. ages, speaking first of the goldē age, thus muche in effect.

Now heare what Iuuenall saith tou­ching this Golden age: Iuuenal. sat. 13. In tyme past poore men liued in field without fraude or deceit. And anon after he saieth.

Iuuenall toucheth emong other pointes one, wherein there is greate ouer sight at this daie. For, youth is now so ill manered, so proud, so stout, so ouerwening so shamelesse and so vnbridled, that in stede of honouryng their elders, thei despise thē whiche is worthie of greate blame.

Thei are blame worthie in deed, for thei peruert both the order of God and nature, for God hath giuen expresse com­maundement to honour age, and to reue­rence the horie heared and graie bearded: And though GOD had not so commaun­ded, Lawe to honour elder [...] Leuit. 1 [...]. nature ought herein to be a Schoole­mistres vnto vs, except we will willingly resist her as Monsters.

Wee maie easilie thinke this to be true, for that the Gentiles them selues were constrained to acknowledge it a du­tie. And thei learned not by the holy scrip­ture and lawes of God, The lawe [...] nature. to honour their el­ders, for that it was not giuen and reuei­led to them as to the children of God: but haue learned it by lawe of nature, whiche [Page] is common Schoolemaisters to all.

This Schoolemaisters nature, of whom thou speakest, hath so emprinted this in the hartes of all men, that euen thei whiche will neither heare nor obay it, are neuerthelesse, constrained to confesse it, bothe to be right honest and of duetie as the Ambassadours of the Lacedemonians did wel declare to the Athenians. A taunt of the Lacede­monians to the Atheniās. For on a tyme there were certaine common Pla­yes at Athens with Scaffoldes made, wherevppon these Ambassadors were pla­ced very honorably, there was a poore old man an Athenian, whiche gatt vp as the rest did, but all the seates were taken vp, and because he could finde no seate, but was faine to stande, al the people laughed hym to skorne, sauyng the Lacedemonian Ambassadours, whiche rise from their sea­tes to giue hym place: The Athenians se­yng this courtesie, liked it well and gaue them greate praise. Wherby thei shewed that thei knew what was honestand praise worthie: but none of them desired to haue this praise. Therefore the Ambassadours saied: The Athenians can iudge bothe of courtesie and honestie, but thei vse it not.

Then are thei of the nomber of [Page] those, that knowe muche good maner, but vse none: and surely these Ambassadours bothe shamed and taunted them as thei de­serued. The dispising of fathers and mothers. But to come to our matter, though young men dispise their elders, we neede not meruaile if thei care not for their el­ders, to whom thei owe duetie because of their age, seyng there are so fewe, that ho­nour and reuerence their naturall fathers and mothers as thei ought, neither can a­waie with them.

It is not at this daie alone that Children haue neglected their duetie to­wardes their Fathers and Mothers, but also the one against the other, and cheefly against God. And therfore Hesiodus spea­kyng of the siluer age, toucheth it some­what to this effect.

He speaketh like a heathen of their re­ligon whiche was diuers according to the diuersitie of the Countrey, for thei had di­uers Gods which thei helde as Patrones, as our Papistes helde of their Sainctes. And because they had diuers manners of Seruices and Ceremonies, and diuers v­sing thereof, as our Papistes haue in their religion. Hesiodus condēneth those which follow not the maner of Religion of their owne Countrey. And then anon after he addeth the punishment whiche God laied vpon them, agreeyng to Ouid, whiche had written more at large of the flood, as farre as he knewe, followyng the holie Scrip­tures as other Poets did, Gene. 6. 7. 8. which wrote be­fore hym, whiche is thus muche in effect.

And from thēce he commeth to the bra­son [Page] age, whereof he speaketh thus muche.

When Ouid speaketh of the fo­wer ages, (as farre as I perceiue by that, that thou hast rehearsed of his Metamor­phosis, he maketh no mention of the decay of strength in mans body, but onely of the decrease of vertue and encrease of vice. But Hesiodus, writeth of bothe, and me thinketh he doth not muche disagree from that whiche is written in the holie Scrip­ture, touchyng of auncestors before the flood, & anon after. For euen at that tyme the strength of man beganne to deminishe and decaie. Is it not true Theophrastus?

Iacob beareth witnesse of that be­fore Pharo: Gene. 4.7. saiyng. The whole time of my Pilgrimage is an hundred and thirtie ye­res, Gene. 47. feare and euill haue the daies of my life been, and I haue not attained vnto the yeres of the life of my fathers, in the daies [Page] of their Pilgrimage. Psal. 90. And Dauid after hym, saieth of his tyme: The tyme of our life is threescore yeres and ten: and if thei be of strength, fourescore yeres: yet their strength is but labour and sorrowe, for it is cut of quickly, and we flee awaie.

Yet notwithstanding methinkes Iacob and Dauid, were long before the tyme that is compared to the Iron age, whereof Ierome hath not yet tolde vs the discription that Hesiodus maketh.

If thou wilt heare it, thus much he saieth in effect.

These are goodly vertues in deede, this agreeth well with that, whiche Theophrastus spake of before.

Hence come the troubles and cō ­fusion that now raigneth in the old age of the world, whiche is the cause of his great disease and dotage. Wherefore wee haue good cause to praie with Dauid: Psal. 71. saiyng. Cast me not of, Lorde in tyme of age, for­sake me not when my strength faileth.

I beleeue all that thou hast spo­ken: and shortly to tell thee myne aduise, me thinkes the worlde is newe in his olde dotage, and the older he waxeth, the more he raueth: The ragyng worlde like an olde ape or beare. he is like vnto these olde Apes or Beares, whiche the older thei waxe, the more mischeeuous thei are. Wherefore, I am afraied least his end be at hand. What thinkest thou Ierome.

[Page]

It is to be feared: for it is dange­rous when a manne giuen to sicknesse fal­leth often sicke: but when he falleth to ra­gyng and madnesse, it is a manifest signe of death. Pope Leo & Clement of the house of Medicis haue giuen euill medicines to the worlde. Doubtlesse the world is very sick seeyng he hath beene so long in the Phisi­tions hande: and great cause of dispaire of healthe is in hym, for that the Phisitions haue giuen hym ouer, and he now falleth to raging, which encreaseth daiely, so that it is to be feared least he run wholie madd vp and doune streates and Countreis, as Nabucadonozer did. For if the head bee mad what shall become of the members.

What meanest thou by the worl­des Phisitions and his frantike head.

Knowest thou not, that Popes are commonly called Gods on earth.

Yes, but what of that.

Knowest thou not that Pope Leo, Medicines in Englishe, Phi­sitions. and Pope Clement the last of those names were of the house of Medicis.

Thereby thou wilt conclude, that the worlde was in the handes of the Phisi­tions when these Popes gouerned.

I meane thereby, that it was a very euill signe, and in maner a foreshe­wyng and prognostication of the thynges [Page] that we haue spoken: but it was a greate signe when Paule Defornese succeeded them, The worlde is frantike. for that his name soundes much vp­on Fransie, vnto which we saie the world is fallē. But let vs heare what Theophra­stus will saie to this matter.

When I would consider this world, I remember a comparison that the Prophet Esay vseth, Esay. 30. to shewe foorthe the state and ouerthrowe of the wicked which were in his tyme. Hee sheweth them that thei shall be deceiued in their vaine hopes, and that their confidence in iniquitie shall bee like an olde ruinous wall, whiche she­weth to be whole, but shall sodainly fall to the grounde, and ouerwhelme all those that are about it. The worlde in decaie. And whē I consider this worlde, me thinkes it is like an olde rui­nous buildyng of whiche the said, morter, and stones is so old, that thei fall awaie by little and little, what shall we thinke then of suche a building but sodaine ouerthrow eare we beware.

Thou puttest me in remēbrance of a melancolike man, Gal. de loc. affect. that Gallen maketh mention of. This man had heard the fable that the auncient Poets fained of Atlas bearyng the heauens on his shoulders, The fable of Atlas. and [Page] being ouercome with melancolike humor was sore afraied least Atlas being weried the heauy burthen, De fac qui appar. in. lum. should either let it fall, or throwe it of on his shoulders, & so crush bothe hym and all the worlde to peeces. Plutarch also maketh mentiō of an other, whiche was sore afraied least the Moone should fall, and greatly pitied and lamen­ted those Nations whiche were vnder the Moone: as the Etheopians, and those of the Ile of Taprobana. He would also haue feared least the Skie should haue fallen, if it had not beene holden vp by Atlas Cul­lumms.

Wee vse a common prouerbe to those that be fearefull: what and the Skie fall, then we shall catche larkes.

Aristottle saith: that the begin­nyng of this prouerbe came, that some rude and ignorant elders beleued that the heauens were sustained by Atlas, and not onely Poets, but also some Phisitions haue affirmed it, naturall Philosophers haue affirmed the same.

I care not whence the prouerbe came, but I am sure if that should come to passe, wee should catche more fooles then larkes, for there would be a greate many [Page] catched in those nettes. And I doubte not but all that heard this poore soule, had good sporte at hym. But I doubte muche least men now adaies are more diseased, Diuersities [...] follie. and farther out of their wittes, then those or such like Melancolike men as thou tal­kest of are: for thei feared that whiche thei neede not, and wee feare not that whiche we should feare. We see the worlde fall in decay, and yet think it should last for euer.

Thou hast preuented me of my saiyng: but to that I will adde that which Horace saieth touchyng this matter.

I perceiue Horace speaketh of one sorte of fooles, which feare great dan­ger where there is none, and with greate trembling are afraid of their own shadow.

There is a prouerb of those that feare their owne shadowe: but contrari­wise there are other fooles, that feare no daunger, though thei see it before their e­yes or bee warned of it. There is neither freende nor foe shall councell them, or di­swade them: but thei will headlong throw them selues into present mischeefe, and will not chaunge their mynde, though all the worlde had sworne naie.

But I doe well vnderstand what Horace meaneth, by talking of Fuse, Ilion, and Catien.

He telleth of a pleasant chaunce that happened in a Tragedy whiche was plaied, as wee at this daie doe plaie stage Plaies: wherein Fuse was one of the Pla­yers, & plaied the part of Ilion the daugh­ter of Kyng Priam, and Catien plaied the part of Polidore the brother of Ilion. Now in the Plaie Ilion should sleepe, & Polidore should appeare to her in a dreame, and wa­ken her and her mother Hecuba and crie, [Page] mother, sister. And because Fuse his parte was to sleepe, he victuailed hymself with good siropps, and dranke his skinne full, and fell so fast a sleepe, that thei could not plaie: so Catien that plaied Polidors parte, with his criyng mother and sister neuer so loude could not once wakē Fuse out of his sleepe. Yea Horace saith: that if there had been a thousandes Catiens and had cryed till their hartes had aked, thei could not haue wakened hym, hee slept so soundly: which when the people sawe, thei all cried with one voice, mother, mother: and so all the Tragedy was turned to a laughter.

But to what purpose doeth Ho­race alleadge this example.

Mary to this purpose: to tell of those that will runne headlōg into present danger, and though men admonishe them neuer so much, and cry to them to diswade them, thei will no more hearken to father or mother, brother or sister, freende or foe, then a dronkarde ouerladen with Wine, whiche can no more be wakened, then Ca­tien could waken Fuse with al his criyng. And thereby concludeth, that the aduen­turous fooles of these days are like, which can not perceiue in what danger thei are, [Page] nor doe more esteeme the admonition and warnyng that is giuen them, then if they had not heard it, or were without sence. Wherefore it is muche to bee feared least it happen to vs as it did to those that were drowned with Noes floud. [...]en. 7. 8. 19. Whose exam­ple Christe laieth before vs for the same cause, [...]ath. 24. or as it happened to those of Sodome and Gomorha, Thess. 5. whiche were sodainly con­sumed with fire from Heauen. And that when we saie peace, peace, our ouerthrow come not sodainly on vs, before wee haue leasure to ende our businesse. For if our age were of Golde, The new mel­ [...]yng of the Worlde. Siluer, Brasse, Iron, or any other mettall, it might bee molten againe and made a newe, but beyng as it is, I haue smal hope. What thinkest thou Theophrastus.

If I had any hope, I should ra­ther hope, that God would doe as he hath promised by his Prophets: he saith he will gather together all the Golde, Siluer, Brasse, Copper, Tinne, Lead, Latten, and all other mettals, and will cast them into a furnase in the middest of Ierusalem, to purge them, and to trie out all the drosse and falshoode. But it is very harde to doe this, for the disease is incurable.

[Page]

Wee maie well saie with Titus Liuius, that the worlde is so corrupt, that wee can neither awaie with the vices, nor the remedies necessarie for the same.

He is a very waiwarde and vnpa­tient patient, and therefore is like an olde year then pot, whiche when it is once crac­ked, can neither be molten, sowed, nor mē ­ded againe, but the shardes serue either to lade out water, or to fetch fire in. And yet I am afraied least that happen vnto hym whiche the Lorde by his Prophets threat­neth the wicked withall: saiyng, that he wil breake them like an year then pot, and will not leaue so muche as one peece or sharde to carrie either fire or water in: Or els that whiche Dauid Prophesieth of the wicked, saiyng: Thei shalbe all pulled vp like thornes, which no man handleth: and if any man touche them, he shall be fenced with Iron, or the staffe of a speare, and thei shall be wholie burnt: Dauid doth rightly compare the wicked to thornes, whiche e­uery waie doe hurte: for thei doe not onely hinder the earth from bearyng fruite, but also pricke and hurte thē, that either come neare them or handle them. Therefore the Lorde threatneth the wicked as vnruly [Page] thornes, that he will not onely cut them, but wholie plucke them vp, and because none dare come neare them or touche thē: he hath promised that their handes shal be fenced with Iron that thei maie handle them, and to giue them forkes to throwe them into fire, to burne and consume them to naught.

I once complained that menne transfigured thēselues into brute beastes. But I am now more afraied, least thei be­come worse and more furious, then y ^e man whiche was possessed with a legiō of De­uilles: whiche dwelte emong the graues, and could neither be tied nor chained, but he brake theim. I remember an old wiues tale in our countrie, that S. Barnard had the Deuill chained on the hill where his Abbey stādeth: and because he went about to gnawe the the chaine a sonder to get a­waie: the Smithes there about euery mō ­daie, before thei went to worke, strike thre strokes with their hammer on the Andfild to mende and repaire the chaine which he had gnawē, least he should breake it in son­der and get loose. If it bee so, it appeares that S. Barnard tied him not sure inough or els that the Smithes did not their due­tie [Page] to mende his chaine, for it semeth now, that he is not onely broken loose hymself, but hath opened hell gates for all his com­panions, & so thei are spred ouer the whole worlde. I knowe not what rule thei keepe in hell, but I thinke verily that the deuils are broken loose, Apoc. 12. and goe aboute to make an other hell in this worlde, that thei maie haue a hell, as well for quicke as for dead.

Thou art well seen in old wiues tales. But to speake in earnest, I am a­fraied least that Deuill, that is spoken of in the Apocalips, whiche was bound for a thousand yeres, be let loose and haue more libertie now then euer he had: And leaste that Read Dragon, whiche is all embrued with the blood of Martires, who with his Angels fought in the heauens against S. Michael & his Angels, be throwne doune from heauen, that is to saie: frō the churche of Iesus Christe by the power of his Gos­pell, and that he is fallē on the earth with his Angels, that is to saie, into the hartes of the wicked, reprobate, and worldly men whom he filleth with rage and furie, to o­uerthrowe the whole Churche of GOD. Wherfore, Apoc. [...]. we maie well saie with S. Ihon Wo bee to the inhabitantes of the yearth [Page] and the sea: For the Deuill is come doune emong you in greate wrathe, knowyng that his time is short, he is in greater rage then euer he was, fearyng the losse of his kingdom. It is good reason, that it should happen to Christiās, as our sauior Christ did foretell vnto the Iewes, Punishment of Iewes. by the simili­tude of the wicked spirite, whiche walked through desart and drie places to seke rest but founde none: Matth. 12. then he saied: I will re­turne into myne house frō whence I came and when he came he founde it emptie, swept, and garnished: then he went in, and tooke vnto hym seuen other spirites worse then hymself. And the ende of that man, is worse then the beginnyng.

This parable semeth very darke to me, what meaneth our Sauiour Christ thereby.

Euen so happened it to the Ie­wes. Exod. 13. 14. 19. 20. The lorde caried them out of Egipt, and gaue them his lawe, Psalm. 78. wherby he droue the Deuill from emongest them. But tho­rowe their Idolatrie and Synne, he gaue them ouer to the hand of Tirantes, which Moses told them of before, by whose mea­nes Sathan went about vtterly to destroy the people of GOD. It appeareth more [Page] plainly in the Bookes of the Iudges, Sa­muell, the Kynges, the Chronicles, and the Machabees, that thei were many tymes afflicted by Gentiles & Idolaters, which were their neighbours, and principally by the Assirians, Babilonians, and Greekes, but especially by Antiochus Epiphanes, who rightly is taken for the figure of An­tichrist, by reasō of his heinous enterprises against God and his worde. 1. Esdras. 1. But the lorde beyng alwaies mercifull to his Churche, after he had chastised them for their sinnes did deliuer them frō these greate mischie­ues, and gaue theim some respite and con­solation. But thei afterward forgat again the scourage of the lorde, and behaued them selues worse against Christe his Apostles and disciples, then euer their predecessors did against the Prophetes? Daniel. 9. Therefore thei could looke for nothyng, Rom. 10. 11. but onely the vi­sitation of God, more sharply and terribly then before, and that he should destroy and wholy ouerthrowe thē, giuyng them ouer to the power of sathan which he did, when he called the Gentiles to the grace of the Gospell, and reiected theim, and gaue thē ouer into the hands of the Romaines, Matth. 24. who haue more cruelly handled them, Luks. 21. then any [Page] of the tyrantes before that tyme. Where­fore Iesus Christ saied not without cause, Matth. 2. 4. that there was neuer suche tribulatiō nor vengeance of God, The Iewes are amanifest example of the iudgemēt of God. since the beginnyng of the worlde: of whiche vengeance the scat­teryng of the Iewes throughout all the worlde, is witnesse to this daie. Whereby we maie well perceiue, how God hath re­serued them, as a witnesse of his iuste iud­gement, to al those that stande against Ie­sus Christ or his Gospell. For there is not a more miserable nor cursed people vnder the cope of heauē: by whom God hath she­wed vs a great example, if we cā beware. But we seme to bee holy like thē: thei had the exāple of Sodome and Gomorha before their eyes: Gene. 19. for thei might almoste se from their owne Countrie, the cituation of the tounes, whiche by fire and brimstone sent from heauen, were consumed by the iuste iudgement of God: whose witnesse remai­neth on the yeareth for euer. For, where as before it was compared to Paradise, now it remaineth so in Gods curse, Gene. 13. that it bea­reth no fruite that can sustaine man, but it turneth immediatly into smoke and ashes. Stra. lib. 16. As the Heathen Historiographers & Cos­mographers witnesse, Cor. tac. li. 23. The Israelites and namely Corne­lius [Page] Tacitus, & Strabo, although thei knew not the iudgement of God, from whence it proceaded. The Israelites whiche held Sa­maria, had there a plaine spectacle before their eyes, but thei could not beware by it, but so farre prouoked the wrathe of God, that he driued theim by the Assirians, from the land that he had giuen them. Likewise their brethren of Iuda sawe all these exam­ples and iudgementes of God manifestly, Iuda. and could not amende, but did worse then Israel: wherefore God punished them like wise by the Babilonians. Their successors might haue been warned by the examples and punishmentes of their predecessours. But it behoued them (as our sauior Christ told them) to fil vp the measure of their fa­thers. Matth. 23. And therefore God must needes vse extreme vengeaunce towardes them, and so curse them as we at this daie se, frō one ende of the worlde to the other.

I am afraied least the like happē now to vs Christians.

It is sore to bee feared: For now Iesus Christe is come, whiche hath driuen and discouered sathā, that quietly raigned in the worlde, and called the Gentiles and Painims, from whom wee sprang, to the [Page] grace of the Gospell, whiche euer before serued the Deuill and his Idols. But we very vnthankfully receiue the grace that God hath shewed vs. Therefore we maie se what vengaunce God hath vsed towardes the Easte Churches, and againste all the Churches of Asia and Affrica, by that false Prophet Mahomette, and by the Turke his adherentes: The moste Chur­ches of Europe ought to take hede by their example.

Thou saiest true, but we wil not passe for it, till wee bee as thei are, and till thesame light vpon vs.

If we bee not wholy blinde, wee maie se how the Lorde hath poured out his wrathe, and exercised his vengaunce vpon vs, through that Romishe Antichriste, for what disolatiō and ruine hath he brought the Christian Churche in. Now after all this greate desolation and ruine, which is fallen on all Churches, Iesus Christ hath vouchsafed to visite vs once againe with his Gospel, whiche we receiue euen as the Iewes did. Wherefore I looke for none other thing, but Gods iust iudgement vpō vs, euen as thei had, and haue to this daie: and there is none other likelihood, but that [Page] the vtter consumption of the worlde is at hande, The destruc­tion of Ieru­salē, a figure of the ende of the worlde when their wickednesse shall come to the fulnesse, as theirs of Ierusalem did, which was a figure of that last iudgement of God that we loke for. And that was the cause that our sauiour Christ ioyned both together, in the aunswere that he made to his Disciples, Matth. 24. when thei questioned with hym, of the destruction of Ierusalem, and the ende of the worlde.

Then haue I good cause to saie, that the worlde is possessed with Deuils.

Naie, it is to be feared, least wee become worse: and least that wicked spirit come againe, with vii. other spirites worse then hym self, and that our state bee worse then euer it was. The true Phi­sicke of the diseased and possessed. worlde. For the likelihoodes bee very greate, the daunger is suche, that it is impossible for any to remedy, but only our Sauior Christe, who alone hath all power to commaunde Deuills, whom thei feare, and whom onely thei obey. Matth. 8. 17. But seyng we haue forsaken hym, driuen hym awaie frō vs, and will not receiue hym again, Marke. 1. when he offereth his grace: it is no meruaile tho there be many in the worlde possessed with deuils, seyng he is gone that had onely po­wer to cast them out. And therefore we are [Page] like those, that bound and chained the pos­sessed man, that dwelt emong the graues: for, though thei tied hym neuer so faste, it was to no purpose, he brake all, till our sa­uior Christe came, whiche healed hym, and made hym as meeke as a Lambe. Whiche worldly men could not doe, by al the mea­nes thei could deuise. The Phisitiōs of the disea­sed worlde. There are many now adaies, that go about to heale the dis­eased, franticke, and possessed worlde, and to driue the deuils out of hym. And thinke to doe it, by their owne pollices, counsels, aucthoritie, power, and richesse, and by the coniurynges and adiurynges of their Ce­remonies and Traditions, but thei make hym worse, as wee haue prooued of long tyme, and dooe yet see it daiely before our eyes: what thinkest thou Ierome.

Me thinkes when the worlde co­mes out of suche Phisitions handes, he is like to those that are lead to S. Matunes in France: for if thei be but frantike when thei are ledde thether, thei retourne from thence starke, staryng madde. Also I feare me, least the coniurers that thou speakest of, shalbe rewarded as the seuen sonnes of Sceua the Iewe, (whiche likewise were Coniurers) were, who in goyng about to [Page] caste out the Deuill out of the possessed man of Ephesus, so prouoked hym that he ran on them, Actes. 19. ouerthrew them, and preuai­led against them, so that thei fled out of the house naked and wounded.

The like shall happē to all those that goe about to appease the trouble and furie, that now possesseth the world, if thei vsed any other meane, then the power and wisedome of the worde of God. For deuils can not be cast out, but onely by our sauior Christ, or his disciples whiche come in his name, power, and strēgth. For, it is Iesus Christ of whō it is written: y ^t he appeaseth the noise of the seas, & the noise of the wa­ues therof, Psalm. 65. & tumults of the people. Wherfore there is none but he that can deliuer y ^e little ship of the churche of God, frō y ^e swallowing gulphes, Matth. 8. 14. and troublesome seas of this world: Ihon. 6. for it is onely to him, y ^t the windes & tempestes obey, which are creatures without reason or vnderstandyng, neither hearyng nor seyng: therfore thei feare and acknowledge none but God, to bee their maister & gouernor. The true coniuryng of Deuilles. There is none other coniuration, that hath any power ouer thē but onely the name of Iesus Christe: and he that cōmeth in any other name, or bryn­geth [Page] any other doctrine, shal not heale the disease, but rather increase it. And it is not inough to come in the name of Christ, and to bryng his doctrine, but it must be doen with his spirit, and faithe. For, the sonnes of Sceua did vse the name of Christ, when thei Coniured the wicked spirite, yea, the name of Iesus which Paule preached: Actes. 16. but he obeyed thē not, for thei tooke the name of Iesus in vaine, not hauyng suche faithe in hym and in his worde, as Paule had: and therefore the Deuill answered them, that he knewe them, but feared them not. Ma­ny also in these daies come in the name of Christ, and boast muche of his Gospel, but because thei are without faithe and affec­tion, towardes the churche of Christ, their doctrine is of no greate force. For, the po­wer of Iesus Christ and his doctrine, con­sisteth not in wordes, but in faith: his troth lieth not in the tong, but in the harte. For the Gospell is no Gospell, nor the woorde of God is no worde, but onely the dead let­ter, except it be ioyned with the power and efficacie of the holie ghost, who is the auc­thor thereof. Neither hath it any great po­wer in him that vttereth it, except it be vt­tered in faithe, so that he maie truely saie [Page] with Dauid and S. Paule, Psalm. 116. I haue belee­ued, 2. Cor. 4. and therefore haue I spoken. And, we also beleue, and therefore speake. For, to v­surpe the worde of God, onely in y ^e mouth, without the faithe and trothe of the spirite of God, is to abuse the name of God, as the false Prophetes, Hirelynges, and En­chaunters doe: for, the kyngdome of God consisteth not in the woorde, but in the po­wer and efficacie of thesame.

I beleue thee very well: & seyng that there is so little faith in the worlde, I do not muche meruaile, though the worde of God take so little effect in many now a daies, aswel the Preachers as the hearers. Furthermore, y ^u maiest wel cal this world a ragyng sea, for it is tossed and turmoiled on euery side, with horrible & violent win­des of ambition, vainglory, auarice, extor­tion, Pride, arrogancie, presumption, ouer wenyng, enuie, hatred, malice, and venge­aunce: whiche haue so swollen and moued it, and tossed vp the waues so high, that I looke euery howre whē it shall ouer flowe, and droune vp the earth, as Noes flood did.

The Geographers, and natural Philosophers write, that there are fower principal windes that blowe on the earth: [Page] besides them there are other, euery one in his place, but none of thē writeth commō ­ly of more then of xii. in all, and the violent blusteryng of one or twoo of these, is suffi­cient to trouble bothe yearth, sea, aire, and to ouerthrowe altogether. Let vs not then meruaile though the sea of this worlde, be wonderfully troubled, & we in great dan­ger, consideryng that there are more then xii, yea, xii.C. or xii.M. contrary windes, that cease not daiely to bluster and blowe one against an other. What waues will thei make? What tempestes muste thei moue? And yet we are in worse case.

How is it possible to be worse.

Thus, those mē that saile on this sea, are all in one daūger, and therfore thei ought to laie holde on their tacklyng, and set hand to the ores, & so help the mariners and gouernors, to saue thēselues frō dann­ger, & to auoide present death: but thei are so ouerthwarte, and so hate one an other, that to be reuēged the one of the other, thei bore holes in the Ship, wherein thei them selues are, to droune their fellowes, who cannot be drouned without them.

I doe not well vnderstand thee.

When a ship is full of holes, are [Page] not all thei in great daūger that are in it?

Thei are not verie farre from their death.

What wouldest thou saie, if ther were some in the Shippe, that would bore holes in it, to droune their fellowes.

I would saie, y ^t thei wer not well in their witts, & that thei were bothe mur­therers of their fellowes, & of themselues.

Euen the like is daily vsed emōg men. For we se that thei do not onely hin­der themselues, in sekyng to hinder other, but also vndo thē selues, in seking to vndo other. It is euen as muche, as though the brother, should go about to droune the bro­ther, or one neighbor an other: so that thei are not worthy to be called mē, but rather sea monsters, whales, & suche other greate fishe, as eate vp the little fish. I would aske thee a question. If thou shouldest se a man teare his face, pul out his eyes, cut his nose and his eares, breake his head against the walles, & thrust a knife in his own throte: wouldst thou think him in his right wits?

Who would not Iudge hym starke madde?

If wee marke the trade of the worlde now adaies, we can not but Iudge [Page] hym suche a one. For, sithe we are all one body, he that goeth aboute to hinder or vn­doe his neighbor, doeth he not lay handes on hym self? Doeth he not disfigure his owne body, and like a madd man teare his owne members? And so vndoe hymself.

Doe you then meruaile though I complaine, and that my wittes bee so troubled, that I wotte not what to saie: I see that Truth, Right, Iustice, and Equi­tie, are not to be founde on the yearth.

Where shall we seke them then? Princes Courtes. In the Popes courte, or in the courtes of Princes, or great lordes that persecute the churche of Christ? Who doeth now main­taine truthe and iustice, but onely suche as Dauid describeth these of Saules court to be? that is, his mortall enemies: of whō he complaineth thus. Psalm. 59. Thei goe to and fro in the euenyng, 1. Samu. 19. thei barke like dogs, and go about the citie. Behold thei bragg in their talke, and swordes are in their lips. Euen as thei that were sent by Saule, went and came, and closed Dauids house, whē Saule sought to put hym to death, to the end he might not escape, and as thei rored & how­led like doggs that pursue wilde beastes, euen so doe thei now adaies, seke after the [Page] true seruauntes of God. We may adde to this saiyng of Dauid, that that he saieth in an other Psalme, of the nature of the wic­ked, Psalm. 10. thus. He saieth in his harte, I shal ne­uer be moued, nor be in dāger. His mouth is full of cursyng, deceipte, & fraude, vnder his tong is mischief & iniquitie. He lieth in waite in y ^e villages, in the secret places doeth he murther th' innocent, his eyes are bent against the poore. Wherefore doeth the wicked condemne God? he saith in his harte, thou wilte not regarde. Heare also what Micheas saieth touchyng the same matter. Micha. 7. The good man is perished out of the earth, & there is none rightous emong men, thei all lye in waite for blood, euery man hunteth his brother with a nette. To make good for the euil of their handes, the Prince asked, and the Iudge iudged for a reward: therefore the greate man he spea­keth out of the corruption of his soule, so thei wrap it vp. The best of thē is as a brier and the moste rightous of them is sharper then the Thorne hedge.

All this we see in our tyme.

Therfore we maie well saie, that it is the tyme whereof Esaie complaineth, Esaie. 59. saiyng: Roma. 3. Your handes are full, Psalm. 7. and poluted [Page] with blood, & your fingers with inquitie. Your lips speake lies, and your tong mur­mureth wickednesse. There is none that crieth for iustice, none iudgeth accordyng to trothe, but trust in vaine thynges. Thei speake thynges of nought, thei cōceiue la­bor, and bryng forthe iniquitie. Thei haue broken the serpēts eggs: and thei spin the spiders web. He that eateth of their eggs shall dye, and if thei bee broken, there will come forthe a Cockatrice. The woorke of wickednesse is in their handes, their feete run to doe mischief, and thei make haste to shed the blood of y ^e innocēt. Their though­tes are thoughtes of vanitie, wast and per­dition is in their waie: thei haue not kno­wen the way of peace, and there is no iud­gemēt in their pathes. Thei so peruerted their own waies, that whosoeuer walketh in thē, shall not knowe peace. And therfore heare what councell Michea giueth vs a­gainst suche people. Mich. 7. Trust ye not in a frēd neither put ye confidence in a counceller, kepe the dores of thy mouthe, frō her that lieth in thy bosome. For the sonne reuileth the Father, the daughter riseth vp against her Mother, the daughter in lawe against her mother in lawe, and a mans enemies [Page] are the men of his own house. Therfore I will looke vnto the lorde: I will waite for God my Sauior, my God will heare me.

I promise you, this is very good counsell.

Who cā deny, but that Esay was a great Phisitiō, and did better knowe the Nature of man, then euer did Esculapius, Hypocrates, or Gallen, whiche are estemed the princes of Phisick? For in their liues, thei neuer made so good & true Anatomie of man, as the Prophet hath doen in this place, euen now alledged, neither did thei euer describe so truely & liuely, al the par­tes of the bodie, to make vs the better to knowe and vnderstand all the nature ther­of. A propheti­call anatomie of man and of the world. For he maketh an Anatomie bothe of body and soule, wherein he so aptly descri­beth all the partes with their properties, y ^t there is nothyng that cā be added vnto it. He firste sheweth generally, what whole man is, then commeth he to the principall partes of him: that is, the hed and the hart: and frō them, to the tong and the mouthe: the handes & the feete, to thende his Ana­tomie might be perfite, & for further decla­ration thereof he saith: Esay. 5 [...]. iudgement is tur­ned backward, and iustice standeth a farre [Page] of, for truthe is fallen in the [...]reate, and e­quitie cannot enter. Yea truth faileth, and he that refraineth from euill, maketh hym self a praie, and when the Lorde sawe it, it displeased hym that there was no Iudge­ment. And when he sawe that there was no man, he wondered that none would of­fer hymself: therefore his arme did saue it, and his righteousnesse it self did sustain it.

I would he would yet saie more, for there was neuer more neede. I beleue when the Prophet spake this, he foresawe, by inspiration of the holy ghoste, the trade of the worlde now adaies: for it is vnpossi­ble better to painte out our tyme, or with liuelier colours, then he hath doen. For, what is the worlde now, but a wilde For­rest and desert of horrible theftes and mur­thers? For there is now almost no iustice, but in the force of the hande and sworde, whereby he carieth awaie the price, bee it right or wrong. Is not this true Ierome?

Ouid saith touching this matter that thei feare no lawes, but iustice and e­quitie are cōstrained to giue place to force and violence: and right beeyng ouercome, is throwen doune, & laied vnder the sword And anon after speakyng of the Iron age [Page] in his Metamorphosis, he concludeth.

He meaneth as muche in effect, as Hesio­dus before hym had saied, whiche is thus muche in somme.

Seing then that it appeareth, that there is nothing, but wil & might in place of reasō and right, it is like the exāple that Homer bringeth forthe of king Agamemnon, who said: if ye wil not giue it me, I wil take it.

That sentēce was very tirānous but what other thyng is vsed almoste now adaies? And Hesiodus speaking of the like thyng, bryngeth forthe an example of the Hauke and Nightingale, wherin he doeth as it were reproue tyrantes, and sheweth how the small and weaker sorte, are con­strained to suffer wrong and extortion, of the stronger and violent: and that tirantes are emong men, as priyng foule are emōg birdes, his words are thus muche in effect

Truely poore men that are in ty­rants handes, are like the Nightingale in the haukes tallents, for, syng thei neuer so sweetely (as the common Prouerbe is) the belly hath no eares, let them talke, reason, and shewe asmuche law for themselues as thei will, it helpes them euen asmuche, as did the swete singyng of the Nightingale [Page] out of the Faulcons tallentes. For, tyran­tes heare with none other eares, nor other reason then their owne, that is their will, therefore, whosoeuer resisteth thē, is neuer the nere, for he wrappeth hym self in more daunger, and moueth them to more wrath.

Therefore, we maie well saie of this matter, that we daily proue that to be true, that king Pirrhus answered to one of his yong children, whiche demaunded of him, to whō he would resigne his kingdō, he answered. To hym that hath y ^e sharpest sworde emongst you: there is almost none other reason in the worlde now adaies.

When I consider the states and trades of diuers cities & tounes, mee thin­kes thei be like a den of theues: for there is almoste no occupation, art, or practise, but hath his pillyng & pollyng, wherewith he cutteth poore mens throtes. The state of the worlde. And when I consider y ^e frendship & agrement that coū ­tries, cities, tounes, villages, neighbours, kinsfolkes, frendes, brethren, sisters, & ge­nerally all men beare one to an other, mee thinkes I see, Griphons, Lions, Beares, Bores, Wolues, Doggs, Hoggs, Foxes, Snakes, Vipers, Scorpiōs, Cockatrices, Egles, haukes, & other priyng birds, with [Page] all kinds of wild beastes, shut vp together in a parke or iron cage, which fight, sting, bite, teare, deuour, & consume one an other And who in this case dare come nere them to set thē at one. For thei will assone fal v­pon hym that comes to do good, as on him that comes to make debate, yea, rather so­uer, The greatest daunger now a daies. & his daunger is greater. For, it is the greatest & most dangerous state now ada­yes, to be an vpright man. For the Frēche prouerbe saith: he y ^t makes himself a shepe the Wolfe will eate hym. Wherefore, we must plaie the wolfes with wolfes, & wic­ked with the wicked, if we wil be at quiet, yea, it so rageth now adaies, that a man cā not knowe his frend frō his foe. And ther­fore, A deafe man in a chafe. they y ^t meddle to reforme or set a staie in this matter, are vsed as if thei had to do with a deafe man, who when he is striken or angred, striketh the next that commeth nere hym, of y ^e next that he metes, whether thei be his frēdes or his foes: wheither thei come to hurt him or to help hym: for, lacke of hearyng & vnderstanding, he is not able to iudge of his frends frō his enemies, but al aduētures without respect, laies on lode as though euery man were his enemie.

If it bee so daungerous to haue [Page] to do with a deaffe man, how muche more daungerous is it, The worlde deaffe, blind and possessed to meddle with him that is bothe deaffe, dombe, yea, and possessed with a Deuill, as many are in these daies? Thou hast heretofore compared the world to one, possessed with a Legion of Deuils but as the possessed (whiche our Sauiour Christ healed) were of diuers sortes, so are thei that now adaies liue in the worlde.

Why, how knowest thou that?

Aske of Theophraste how many sortes our Sauiour Christe healed, as he findeth in the Scriptures: and then thou shalt easely knowe, if all those diuers kin­des of deuils, whiche then tormented men are not now as rife, as euer thei were, or worse, and if there bee none possessed with deuils now, whiche torment others also.

Tell what thou thinkest of this matter Theophrast?

I am contented so to doe, but be­fore wee enter any further in this matter: I muste desire leaue to looke home, and I will come againe straight.

That is good reason, for we will not trouble thee, if thou haue other busi­nesse.

¶The second Dialogue called Blacke Deuilles.

NOw that thou art come Theo­phraste, I praie thee shewe vs (ccordyng to thy promise) the diuersities & Natures of those that were possessed with Deuilles, whom our Sauiour Christ healed.

The Euangelistes witnesse, Matth. 12. that he cast out many wicked spirites, Marke. 8. that tor­mēted the possessed, wherof thei write not at large: but there are some other of whom thei write more largely & specially emon­gest whiche also there wer great diuersity.

Wherevppon doest thou gather that diuersitie, whereof thou speakest?

We maie gather it, The diuersi­tie of the pos­sessed healed by our Saui­our Christ. either by the multitude of wicked spirites, that then tor­mented the possessed, or by the tyme when thei began to torment them, or by the wor­kyng of wicked spirites in them, and the euills whiche the Deuilles did them, or by the qualitie of the persones so possessed.

Shew vs the exāple of all these [Page] diuers sortes possessed, so that we may bet­ter vnderstande, this thy distinction.

There were some, whiche were not tormented with one wicked spirit one­ly, but with many, some likewise wer pos­sessed and tormented with the Deuil from their childhoode, and youth: some other in their age, some also there were, whiche were not onely in greate furie and rage, by reason of the Deuills whiche possessed them, but also were both blinde, deaffe, and dūbe. And touching those that were posses­sed, thei were not all of one qualitie, as we shall perceiue more at large in this place.

I doe not so muche demaunde of thee, A Legion of Deuilles in the possessed. the exāple of those that were tormen­ted with many euill Spirites, because we haue already talked thereof, in talkyng of hym that was possessed with a Legion of Deuilles.

Sainct Matthewe maketh not onely mention, Matth. 8. of one that was so tormen­ted with a nomber of Deuilles, but saieth that therewere twoo: Although Saincte Marke and Sainct Luke, make mention but of one onely, for that the storie of hym was sufficient for theim, to manifest that thyng that sainct Matthew minded to set [Page] forthe, for the power and grace of Iesus Christ, in the storie of the twoo possessed, of whom he writeth. To these twoo we maie adde that, whiche saincte Luke writeth of Marie Sagdaline, Luks. 8. saiyng: That our Sa­uiour Christ cast out seuen Deuills from her, wherewith she was possessed.

What hast thou to saie of these kind of possessed, The errours of the Papists touchyng Mary Magda­line. & namely of Mary Mag­daline: for there are many that vnderstand that those seuen Deuilles which our Sa­uiour cast out, were the seuen deadly sin­nes whiche had ouercome her. Hast not thou heard the like Eustace.

Yea, I haue heard our Preachers preache so, whiche saie that she was a com­mon Harlot, before she was conuerted to Christ, but when he cōuertrd her, he droue out seuen Deuilles out of her, that is to saie: the seuen deadly sinnes, whereunto she was subiect like a poore miserable sin­ner, giuen ouer to all filthinesse. I thinke Theophrastus will not saie the contrarie.

If I should shew how many kind of waies your Preachers are deceiued in this thyng, and you with them, I should spend to muche tyme, and goe to farre frō the cheefe matter whereof we now talke: [Page] wherefore I will but glaunce ouer the pointes whiche serue least to our matter.

Wherein is it that our Preachers are deceiued and we with them?

First, Luke. 7. in that thei take Marie Magdaline, Ihon. 12. and Marie the sister of La­zarus and Martha, Luke. 7. 8. & the sinner of whom S. Luke speaketh, al for one womā, where in deede thei are three seuerall women, as it is easie to bee proued by the Histories of the Gospell: if I had tyme to talke of it, but that I will leaue till more leasure.

What hast thou to saie more.

That your Doctors herein doe shew their ignoraunce, The number of mortall sinnes. in forgiuyng suche nomber of mortall sinnes, as if there were but seuen.

Why, thinkest thou that there are moe?

Yea, I saie that all sinnes are mortal of them selues, for that thei deserue death, euen eternall death: and so remaine continually mortall to the reprobates, in as muche as thei neither aske nor obtaine pardon through Iesus Christ, The differēce betweene mortall and veniall sinnes whiche ma­keth them veniall to the elect of God, tho­row stedfast faith in him. But because this is not to our matter, I will wade no fur­ther [Page] in it.

Thinkest thou then, The seuen Deuils which were in Mary Magdaline. that those se­uen Deuilles that were in her, of their ve­ry nature and substaunce?

No man can denie it, except he will manifestly gainesaie S. Luke and o­uerthrow his meaning, for he speaketh not in this place of the forgiuenesse of sinnes, whiche Synners obtaine through Iesus Christe: but he manifestly speaketh of the merueilous woorkes of Christe, through which, he not onely deliuered the possessed of the wicked Spirites whiche tormented them, but also he healed many of diuers di­seases, infirmities & sickennesses. Where­fore, there is no cause why thei should here take those Deuilles for the seuen deadly sinnes. The differēce betwixt the possessed, and those that the Deuill dwel­leth in by sin. For if we will vnderstande hereby that our Sauiour Christ driueth Deuils out of those, who he deliuereth out of their handes, and withdraweth from sinne: wee maie rightly saie, that he woorketh many suche miracles daiely. But thei are mira­cles in the soule, whereof S. Luke spea­keth no whitt in the place here alleadged, but of suche miracles as were manifestly doen in the bodie it self. For although the Deuill dwell in those that are subiect vn­to [Page] hym through sinne: neuerthelesse, we do not properly call them possessed with De­uilles, except thei torment their bodie, or so trouble their mynde, as it tourne into a furie or rage. And if wee should take the Deuilles for mortall sinnes, in all the pos­sed that the Euangelistes make mention of, wee could not then saie, that our Saui­our Christe did cast out Deuilles of very nature and substaunce of the possessed whō he healed, but only that he deliuered them frō their sinnes. For there is no more rea­son to driue vs to take those deuils (whiche possessed Marie Magdaline) for sinnes, then of any other so possessed.

I perceiue well enough that I spende my tyme in waste to dispute with you. For your new Diuinitie condemneth all the doctrine of our Doctors and Prea­chers, and ye like nothyng but onely your newe opinions.

Our opinions are not newe, nei­ther do we condemne the doctrine of your Doctors and Preachers, nor of any other, but where thei are contrarie to the pure worde of God. And if wee condemne any doctrine by this woorde, it is not wee that condemne it, but God hymself: whose sen­tence [Page] we doe but pronounce as heretofore his Prophetes, Apostles and Euangelists haue doen.

Seing you expoūd the holy scrip­tures as it pleaseth you, I will let Tobie and you goe forwarde with your matter.

I denie not for my part, In what sence the wicked maie be hol­den for pos­sessed. but that the possessed which y ^e Euangelists speake of, were verely possessed with Deuilles: o­therwise then sinners, wicked and repro­bate are commonly possessed with synne, through which the Deuil dwelleth in thē. But on the other side, maie we not rightly holde the wicked and reprobate for posses­sed, which giue them selues ouer to the de­uill, and doe the workes of the same? For though thei shew fairer countenaunce, thē those whom we properly cal possessed, and shew them selues not so furious, neuerthe­lesse, thei many tymes execute strōger and horribler thynges, then thei do, whiche are euen holden for very possessed.

I doe not onely agree to that that thou hast spoken, but I saie further, that this sorte of possessed are muche more dan­gerous thē the other, if a man could know them. For, the lesse thei are knowne the more hurt thei doe, not only to other men, [Page] but to their owne selues. And because men can not well perceiue how the Deuil hur­teth their soules by meanes of sinne. God hath set forth this Image before their eyes in the persones of the possessed whiche are knowne to be suche, to the ende that by thē thei might learne to know, by the tyranny whiche the Deuill executeth on their bo­dies, what tyranny he vseth on their soules when thei are giuen ouer to hym. Now, when wee reade that whiche the Euange­listes haue written of the possessed, let vs cōsider in them, the estate of poore sinners whiche are in the power of Sathan.

What saiest thou to the first, tou­chyng the possessed, whiche are tormented with many Deuilles.

Thou knowest that it hath beene a common opinion among Christian men of long tyme, that God hath giuen to eche man a good Angel to keepe hym, and like­wise that euery man hath an euill Aungell that striueth with the good, and goeth a­bout to hurte and wholie ouerthrowe hym whose euill Aungell he is.

Yea, I can yet saie the prayer by rote that was taught me whē I was yong to bequeath me to my good Aungell. But [Page] tell me I praie thee, thinkest thou not that euery man hath a good and ill Angell?

Thou maiest here perceiue by the histories of these possessed which were tor­mented with so many Diuelles, that thei had more then one euill Angell a peece, for thei had as many euill Angelles as thei had Deuilles within them.

If God suffer many Deuilles at once to fal on one man, to hurt and destroy if thei can, I doubt not, but that he giueth also when it pleaseth hym many good An­gelles to his children, to guard and defend them from those wicked Angelles, whiche are plaine Deuilles.

The holie Scripture maketh no expresse mention that God giueth any cer­taine nomber of Aungelles to his elect, Of the garde and ministery of Angelles. to conduct and defend them, Psalm. 91. but it generally teacheth vs, Hebru. 1. y ^t God hath created Angels to serue those that are appointed to life euer­lastyng, Math. 4. 18. and that thei be assigned to them, Psalm. 34. to defende them. And therefore the Psal­mest saieth: That the Angels of the Lorde are camped like an hoast, about them that feare the Lorde. Furthermore, wee reade that the charge of a whole Countrey, kingdome or Empire is giuen by the Lorde to [Page] one Angell, Daniel. 10. as Daniell doeth plainly de­clare. Likewise wee reade, that God hath sometymes sent many Angelles to keepe and defende one man, as witnesseth the vi­sion of Heliseus seruaunt: 2. Kyng. 5. when the Lorde caused hym to see the succour that he sent Heliseus his maister.

Seeyng wee haue so many ene­mies, and so cruell, wee haue greate neede of Gods sauegarde, & that he sende his An­gelles to keepe, guide, and defende vs, or els we should surely be but very ill kept.

Although our good God and fa­ther, Wakefulnesse against sna­res & assaults of Sathan. hath very well prouided for that from the beginnyng: neuerthelesse, we must not bee carelesse, but watche continually, as warriours doe, that looke euery houre for the assault or allaroms of their enemies. And therefore, 1. Peter. 5. after S. Peter had admo­nished the faithfull to cast and laie all their care on God, assuring them, y ^t God would be carefull for them, he exhorteth them af­ter this maner: be sober & watche, for your aduersarie the Deuill as a roaryng Lion walketh about, sekyng whom he maie de­uour, whom resist stedfast in the faith. Se­yng then that the lorde hath warned vs of the malice of our enemie, and of the desire [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] that he hath to hurt and ouerthrow vs, and the diligēce that he vseth therein, and like­wise of the duetie on our part to resist him, and the meanes that God giueth vs to de­fende our selues, against that so daunge­rous an enemy, certainly we ought not to be carelesse and slothfull therin. For, if we despise the warnynges, that God by his worde hath giuen vs, and care no more for them, then if wee were out of daunger, doe we not deserue that God in iust iudgemēt should giue vs ouer, into the hādes of our aduersarie, as children of rebellion and di­sobediēce. To tēpt God. For, we are forbidden tempt God: Dan. 6. and we bothe tempt hym and mocke him, Math. 4. when we despise his warnynges, and vse not the meanes, Luke. 4. whiche he in his word hath declared vnto vs, Psal. 95. and by whiche he will helpe and succour vs. Heb. 4. 4. And therefore the exāples of the possessed, 1. Cor. 10. that we spake of euen now, The Deuilles diligent to hurter maie serue to waken vs, that we be not sodainly ouercome with so cruel an enemy, Iob. 1. 2. who as he desireth nothing but our vtter destruction, Math. 12. so he ceaseth neither daie nor night, to range and rome to and fro, to set on vs at vnawares, as we se eui­dently by the example of Iob, and in the si­militude whiche wee spake of before, that [Page] our Sauior Christ made vnto the Iewes, touchyng the wicked spirite that wande­red in the desertes, and sought for rest.

If one deuill be sufficiēt to trou­ble, and torment the whole world, in what state bee the poore possessed, that are not onely troubled with one, The power that the De­uill hath to torment men but with many.

To th'ende that we maie the bet­ter iudge of this matter, and perceiue the malice and rage of our aduersarie, lett vs cōsider in what furie he brought those pos­sessed, whiche answered our sauior Christ, that thei had a Legion of Deuilles within them, because thei were possessed with a great nomber: as it well appeared (when Christ gaue them leaue to depart) by their enteryng into the Heard of Swine, that were there by: and then wee shall well vn­derstand, how we maie come to the know­ledge by suche examples, into what state the Deuill bryngeth mennes soules, tho­rowe the synne that raigneth in them, and into what tormēt and trouble he bryngeth the whole worlde, by thesame meanes.

I wene S. Mathew writeth that these twoo possessed, Math 8. of whō thou speakest, came forth of the graues, & were very fear­full, so that none could passe that waie.

[Page]

S. Marke touchyng this matter saieth, Marke. 5. that he had his abidyng of hym that he spake therof, emong the graues, and no man could bind him, no not with chaines: because that whē he was often bound with fetters & chaines, he plucked the chaines in s [...]nder, and brake the fetters in peeces, neither could any man tame hym: and al­waies bothe night and daie, he cried in the mountaines, Luke. 8. and in the graues, and stroke hymself with stones. Sainct Luke saieth further of this matter, that he was long time possessed with the deuill, and he ware no Clothes, neither abode in house, but in graues, and breakyng the bandes that he was bounde with, was caried of the De­uill into the wildernesse.

There are many thynges to bee considered in these possessed, in whiche I would knowe thy minde.

Shewe them in order, and I wil answere thee to euery of theim, as GOD shall giue me grace.

The first is, The abidyng [...]f the posses­ [...]ed in graues [...]nd desertes. touchyng their abi­dyng in the graues and desertes: and why the deuill rather caried them thether, then to any other place. For, sainct Luke saieth plainly, [...]uke. 8. as thou diddest rehearse euen now [Page] that the deuill did cary thē to those places.

Thou must vnderstande, Torment of the body and mynde. that the deuill doeth not onely torment the posses­sed in their bodies, but also thei so trouble their vnderstanding, that all bodily tormē ­tes wer nothyng, in comparison of the tor­ment of the mynde, now the deuill hauing thus troubled their myndes, puttes horri­ble and straunge thynges in their imagi­natiō: so that many times thei knowe not, whether thei be beastes, men, or deuilles: whether thei be quicke or dedde, but euen as their imaginations and fantasies car­ry them.

I haue seen frantike, Fonde imagi­nations of franticke men Melanco­like, and furious men, whiche were not e­steemed to bee possessed, and yet had suche imaginatiōs, as could not be remoued out of their heddes, though the straungenesse thereof were incredible. I haue heard ma­ny tales of diuers, that haue been in that takyng: but emongst other, of some which beeyng out of their wittes, thought thei were ded: and had this toye rooted in their fantasie, that thei could by no meanes bee perswaded to eate meate: For, when any man offered theim either meate or drinke, thei answered, that thei were dedde, & that [Page] ded folkes did neither eate nor drinke: so y ^e some of thē haue died of honger and thirst: and some of them haue been brought to ea­tyng, because that other whiche fained to be ded as well as thei, did eate and drinke.

Ihon Nider maketh mention of a certaine Citezen of Vienna in Austriche whom he sawe whilest he studied there, Nider in for­micar. Lib. 5. cap. 12. that could neuer bee perswaded, either to eate or drinke, beeyng in this rauerie that thou speakest of, but died for hōger. Now, if di­seases and euill humours that bee in man, be able so to trouble his braine and vnder­standyng, it is not to bee doubted, but that the Deuill can trouble hym more, and by many other meanes, whereof men knowe not the causes, whether it be that he vse the meanes, of the euill dispositiō of those that he seketh, or that he doe it without the aide or meane thereof. And therefore it is verie likely, that those deuilles whiche possessed the men, that we euē now spake of, had put some suche like toye in their phātasie, and made them imagine that thei were dedde. For whiche cause, thei fled the company of the liuyng, and withdrewe themselues in­to the graues (whiche wer places appoin­ted for the dedde) as vnto the lodgyng me­test [Page] for them, accordyng to their fond ima­ginatiō. And because desert places be not inhabited, thei withdrewe themselues the­ther, to flee the cōpanie of men. For, there are some melancolike and furious folke, y ^t so hate men, & are greued with the conuer­sation of others, y ^t thei cannot away, either to see or heare any body, but desire to bee a­lone like wild beasts. It semeth that these twoo possessed men, were of these sortes, and therfore desired to be in desert places.

Thei that liue in feare of Death, The feare of death. liue in a meruailous paine.

Thei liue in a paine whiche tor­menteth them, more then Death it self.

I doubt not thereof. But mee se­meth that these, whiche already haue opi­nion that thei be ded, and bothe flee frō the conuersation of men with greate hatered, & also this present life, are in muche more miserable estate. For, he that feareth death liueth somewhat betwene feare and hope, but he that hath this opinion, that he is al­ready dedde, is not onely out of all hope of life, but euen in the case of a condemned persone, in the handes of the hangman, or as the damned soule in perpetuall paine.

Therfore thou maiest well think [Page] in what torment, the Soules of the poore possessed are, hauyng suche imagination. For thei were, as hauyng alwaies present death before their eyes, and diyng conti­nually, and yet can not wholy dye.

How could thei imagine to bee already dedde, and yet to dye againe, as if thei were not wholy dedde? It semeth that these imaginations, be quite contrary.

Thou must not meruaile at that, for there is no staie in those, that are trou­bled in minde and vnderstāding, but chief­ly when the deuill puttes in foote: for thei haue no certaine iudgement, to iudge any thyng by reason, The torment of those, that are giuen o­uer to Satan. neither to vnderstande reason when it is told them. Furthermore thou shalt vnderstande, that the tormentes of these, whiche are giuen ouer into the hā ­des of the Deuil are so horrible, that it ca­steth thē into vtter despaire: and therefore thei seeke all the meanes thei can, to ridde themselues of it, though it be neuer so im­possible. Wherefore there is no doubt, but that the damned, whiche beare the iudge­mēt of God, feele thēselues so ouerladen, with the burthen of his wrathe and curse, thei would gladly bee dispatched: yea, so ded, that there might be no memorie of thē [Page] after death, no more then of brute beastes.

I doubt not but that thei had ra­ther their soules were mortall thē immor­tall, and that their bodies might not rise a­gaine, rather then to rise to perpetuall tor­ment.

Thou maiest well vnderstande, Matth. 26. that it was not for nought that our Saui­our Christ saied of Iudas: The iudge­ment of God on the wicked that it had been better that man had neuer been borne.

Wherefore saied Christ so thin­kest thou?

He said not simply that it had bin good that Iudas had neuer bin borne. Prouer. 16. For how mischeeuous so euer he was GOD made his wicked treason to serue to his glorie. And therefore it was good that he was borne in respect of gods glory, which created all thynges to that end. But sithe Iudas was so wicked y ^t he mischeeuously rebelled against God, and therby deserued eternall damnation, our Sauiour Christe spake in respect of y ^e person of Iudas, that it had been better that he had neuer beene borne, thē so wickedly to cast away himself for euer. Wherein our sauiour Christ tea­cheth vs two thynges worthie to be noted.

What is the first?

[Page]

That is: that God so maketh wic­ked Instrumentes to serue to his glorie, that by them he executeth his eternall or­denaunce, and yet neuerthelesse he puni­sheth theim for their euill imaginations and wicked workes.

What is the other poinct?

The other poinct is: that he there­by declareth vnto vs, how horrible y ^• paine of the wicked and reprobate is, in that the greatnesse of the same is not to be compa­red, with the excellent gift of this mortall life, and the benefites which we maie here receiue.

Yet life is a good and excellent gift of God.

That is very true. And therefore if it be better for man neuer to haue liued, or neuer to haue bin made, then to be made to beare the euerlasting curse of God thou maiest easily iudge, how greate a burthē it is, to beare suche a iudgement. And there­by wee maie perceiue that, whiche Iesus Christ speake to Iudas concernyng this matter, was likewise spoken to all the re­probate & enemies of God. Ouid because we can not vnderstande nor comprehende them, God hath here set forth before our e­yes [Page] horrible images in these possessed mē, The Image of the hell of the wicked. whereof wee speake. For I would aske thee a questiō. Whether hadst thou rather (if thou were put to thy choyce) neuer to haue been borne, or to bee for euer in the e­state that these possessed men were.

I had rather if I had none other respect but my self, neuer haue been borne into the worlde.

And yet all that is writtē of these possessed men is nothing, in comparison of the tormentes of the damned & reprobate: which beginneth not onely so sone as thei are departed out of this present life, but e­uen whilest thei liue, so soone as thei resist God, & fight against their own cōsciences

Wee maie then place those wic­ked ones that thou speakest of, in the num­ber of these possessed men that make their abidyng in the graues: as if thei were al­readie lodged with death, and had hym al­waies before their eyes.

Though thei make a fairer shew towardes the world, then the possessed do, and are not so muche tormented in bodie, yet are thei no lesse tormented in spirite & conscience then thei: for though thei goe a­bout to appease it, as much as thei can, yet [Page] the Lordes saiyng shall alwaies remaine true which he spake by the mouth of Esay: Esaie. 48. saiyng. The wicked shal neuer haue peace nor quietnesse, but shalbe continually like the Sea, whiche is alwaies in torment.

As concernyng those that thou speakest of, Thei that hate and are wearie of all men. whiche hate all men and their conuersation, and seeke to be sollitary, be­cause all the world doth extreamely auoyd them, I haue knowen some, that in steede of ioiyng in their wines and children, thei haue so extreamelie hated them, that thei could neither see them nor heare them, no, nor abide any other person.

Thou maiest well place those in the nomber of those possessed that fled into the Desertes. For there are some wicked ones so enuious and hatefull to euery mā, through the extreame couetousnesse that continually grieueth their greedie harte, that thei would haue all the worlde them selues: therefore as thei can awaie with no man, no more can any man away with thē: yea, thei can not awaie with them selues. And this is the cause that thei become like to these possessed men, Math 8. which not onely fell vpon all suche as passed by and thei met, Mark. 5. so that none durst passe by the waie where [Page] thei were, but also thei cruelly tormented themselues, and beate themselues against the stones.

If the Deuill haue suche power ouer those whom he ruleth, that he causeth them to torment them selues, yea, if thei could to destroy them selues, we neede not meruaile if suche be cruell and furious a­gainst others.

Notwithstanding, thou seest how God hath Sathan so in bondes, The Deuille power bride­led. and bride­leth him by his prouidence, that he cannot woorke his will, neither in the person of these poore possessed, nor in any other: for though these possessed breake their chaines and bonds, so that none could keepe them bounde nor staie them: neuerthelesse, thei could neither destroy themselues, nor hurt any other further then the Lorde gaue thē leaue.

If God had not prouided, they might haue doen muche harme, conside­ring that thei were so furious, mighty and strong, that there were no bonds nor chai­nes but thei brake▪

Thou maiest well think, that that strength came not alone of them selues, for thei were but men as other men are: [Page] whereby wee maie perceiue, that the De­uilles whiche possessed them, did employe their force to worke suche thynges, as sur­mounted the order of nature.

It is not to bee doubted but that their strēgth came from them as thou hast saied: for it is certaine that it came not frō the spirite of God as Sampsons did: Iude. 15. 16. who also brake chaines and bonds, caried away Towne gates on his shoulders, and ouer­threw houses with y ^e strength of his hāds.

Neuerthelesse, thou seest how God hath these possessed in suche bondes, that notwithstandyng the strēgth that the deuilles gaue them, yet were thei alwaies so subiect to Iesus Christ, as if he had had them in chaines and bondes, and although thei fledde to the graues and desertes, yet when it pleased Iesus Christe, he brought them from thence, and cōstrained them to appeare before hym, as if a Iudge should call a wicked doer out of prison: to appere before hym, to giue sentence against hym. Now if our Sauiour Christ, haue shewed suche power on these possessed, and ouer the Deuilles whiche tormented them, we maie not doubt, but that he hath as muche power now as euer he had, to represse the [Page] cloaked possessed, Tyrauntes possessed. that are now adaies, and also these Deuilles, by whom thei are con­ducted and gouerned. But especially wee maie be well assured, that he will not loose the bridle more to tyrauntes, then to these possessed, whō thei resemble in many thin­ges. For, thei are strong and mightie pos­sessed, whom mannes power can not ease­ly resiste: yea, and thei bee furious, like the lorde and maister that thei serue. And ther­fore, The crowne [...] and hornes of the redd Dragon. it is written in the Apocalips, that the red Dragon had seuen heddes, and on eue­ry hedde a croune, and he had also ten hor­nes. For, Apoc. 12. the Deuill hath at all tymes go­uerned suche tyrānous Kynges and Prin­ces, as persecuted the people of God. Fur­thermore, lawes be giuen to men, as bon­des and bridles to restraine them, from all kinde of riot or beastly life: And therefore Dauid admonisheth vs, Psal. 32. saiyng Be ye not like an Horse, or like a Mule, whiche vn­derstande not, whose mouthes thou doest bind with Bit and Bridle, least thei come nere thee. But there is neither bit nor bri­dle, that can restraine the tyrannie, and fu­rie of tyrauntes, by reason of their power, and the practises that the Redde Dragon, whiche is the Deuil, worketh in them and [Page] by theim. Wherefore, thei maie well bee compared to those furious, violente, and wilde possessed men. But our greatest cō ­fort, is, that Iesus Christe whiche is their iudge, is able inough to cal them to iudge­mēt before him, either to bridle their rage, or to condemne theim to the bottomelesse pitte of helle to the Deuill, whom thei had rather obeye then God. And therefore it is written in the booke of Daniell, Dan. 7. that the Sonne of God hath Iudged and condem­ned all beastes: By whiche is signified the empire and kyngdomes, whiche haue per­secuted the people and chuche of God, and haue doen so muche harme on the yearth.

I vnderstande this poincte verie well: Now remaineth to heare, what Ie­rome hath to saie.

Because that the tyrantes which openly persecute the people, and Churche of God, and vse nothyng but rage, force, and violence, doe manifestly declare them­selues, to bee the enemies of God and his churche, it semeth that we maie rightly cal suche possessed and deuills, blacke deuils.

Why saiest thou so? Blacke Deuils Diddst thou euer see, either blacke or white Deuilles?

Seyng thei are spirites without [Page] bodies, thei cā neither be blacke nor white, for thei can receiue no colour, sithe that co­lours haue no place, but in visible and cor­porall thinges. But I speake this, because Painters commonly paint Deuils black, and wee imagine them so to bee, whiche is not wholie without reason: The Prince of darknesse his liuerie. For, seyng the Deuill is Prince of darkenesse, the colour is verie meete for his liuerie, because it re­presenteth darkenesse muche better, then any other, as whitenesse best representeth light: for whiche cause cōtrariwise, Pain­ters commonly make Angelles white and shinyng: And when thei haue appeared to men in likenesse of menne, thei haue often tymes appeared after that maner, as the holie Scripture witnesseth.

Seeyng the Deuill is a Prince, Math. 28. yea, Mark. 16. the Prince of the worlde, Luk. 24. and is al [...]o called the Prince of darkenesse, Ihon. 20. it is good reason that he should haue a liuerie, Actes. 1. 10. as o­other Princes and lordes haue, Ihon. 12. 15. and that it should be blacke. 2. Cor. 3. And so seyng thou diddst call these blacke Deuilles, Luke. 22. that we talked of, Ephe. 2. thou makest me imagine that thou thin­kest, that there are also white deuils: or els thou needest not to haue vsed that title, as a distinction of blacke Deuils from other.

[Page]

As wee maie rightly call those blacke deuills, whiche openly shewe them selues to be Deuills, so likewise maie we call those white deuills, whiche trāsfigure themselues into Angelles of Light. White Deuils For, although thei bee Deuilles in deede, 2. Cor. 11. ne­uerthelesse, thei disguise themselues so, that thei are taken for Angelles of Light, though thei be Angelles of darkenesse.

I thinke those white Deuils, are more daungerous then the blacke, for that thei are more subtle and traiterous then y ^e other, and are no lesse cruell and furious.

There is no difference, but that these white Deuils, can better couer their crueltie and rage for a tyme, but in thende thei are rewarded like hypocrites, euen as thei are deuillishe hypocrites, their cloked hipocrisie, crueltie, and furie, must be disco­uered. And therfore it cōmeth to passe ma­ny times, that these kind of deuils become more fell and murtherous, then any other.

Seyng we haue spoken of blacke Deuilles, Auncient blacke Diuels and white Deuilles. I would wee speake a little of white Deuils, that we might learne their nature, and beware of them.

As thou haste had examples of blacke Deuills, in all the auncient tyran­tes, [Page] whiche heretofore haue persecuted the churche, whereby thou maiest knowe their nature, thou hast likewise many examples of white Deuils, in all y ^e auncient Hereti­kes, and in all the Hypocrites, and house­holde enemies of the churche: whiche hath euer doen more harme, then all the open e­nemies that euer the Churche had, how cruell so euer thei were.

Now that we are deliuered from these auncient white Deuilles, I would wee should now talke of these of our tyme, whiche touche vs nerer.

I think Theophrast wilbe ready whē thou wilt, to satisfie thine expectatiō.

And I will also be ready to heare when it pleaseth hym.

Then we shall al quickly agree. But before we ende this talke, I wil shew you one auncient exāple of a Deuill, A Deuil both white and blacke. that was bothe blacke and white, who hath ma­ny fellowes in these daies.

What Deuill is that?

It is Iulian the Apostata. Whē this Iulian became Emperour, and had re­nounced the Christian Religion, which he before professed, he went about with all his might, wholy to abolishe it, and to establish [Page] that Heathen religiō, whiche he followed. And because he knewe by experience, that the tyrantes before hym, profited nothyng with their persecutions against the Chri­stians, but rather increased that Religion, whiche thei sought to abolishe, then dimi­nished it, he tooke a contrary waie to them muche more dāgerous then theirs. Wher­in we maie rightly saie, that the blacke de­uils of his predecessors tyrantes, Iulians deuill conuerted into a white deuill. cōuerted themselues into a white deuill, in the per­sone of this Apostata, for he went not a­bout to pursue the christians, & with cruell persecution, torment and death, to make them renounce their faithe, and to embrace his Paganisme, but rather to win them by flattery, worldly honour, riches, giftes and presentes. And therefore at the first, he en­treated them very courteously, Tripart. hist. lib. 6. and com­maūded that none should torment or trou­ble th [...]m, or constraine them to doe Sacri­fice to their Gods, but suffer them quietly to liue with their owne Religion.

That was a wonderfull subtiltie for, Alluringes of Iulian to de­ceiue Chri­stians. many maie soner be ouercome by suche meanes, then by persecution and torment.

Thou maiest be sure that he wan many by that practise. For the ambicious, [Page] glorious, and couetous, whiche desired ho­nours, riches, and offices in the court, and to be heaued vp into high dignitie, sought to please hym, perceiuyng that thei were most made of that most fauoured his reli­gion, and were farthest from the Christian religion, whiche this Apostata hated to the death. But notwithstandyng all these practises, he could not winne so many by this meanes as he desired: for, by reason that there were many Christian Empe­rours before hym, since Constantine the greate, the nomber of the Christians was greatly encreased, in so muche that Iulians Courte was full, and the greatest parte of his officers & seruantes were Christians. For this cause he vsed a more subtill craft and dangerous sleight, Christians in Iulians Court to deceiue the most vertuous, & those which most feared God, and his religion. For he knewe that good life and holie conuersation would muche moue the people. And because y ^• Pastors, and Ministers of the Christians, were thē of very vpright life and holie conuersatiō, and that by their example thei stirred and drewe men to their religion, and to fellow their doctrine, and also confirmed those more which had already receiued their re­ligion, [Page] he went about to reforme the state and liues of the Priestes and religious mē of the Paynims, Another sub­tilty of Iulian to make men haue the bet­ter deuotion to the hea­then religion. and their Gods & Idols, after the example of the Pastors and Mi­nisters of the Christians. And this he did, to the ende that the Christians should cast the Gentiles in teeth, with the wicked life of their Priestes and Ministers, neither that the Gētiles being offended therwith, should be moued to forsake their heathnish religion, and become Christians. For thei that haue any sparke of the feare of God, yea the very superstitious and Idolaters, mislike their Pastours and Ministers of what religion so euer thei be, whē thei per­ceiue their wicked and vicious life. For e­uen the wicked them selues, The offence of the euill life of Pastors looke for bet­ter life then their own at their hands whō thei esteeme to bee their guides, & to haue administratiō of thinges which thei think holie. And therefore thei require of suche persons a straighter and vprighter life thē their own or any other. For thei think thei haue more libertie then thei that ought to be the example & rule of their life. Wher­fore, thei can not suffer that to be in them, which thei can well suffer in other that are not of that calling, yea and in themselues, [Page] as wee see the Papistes at this daie. For, not onely the most supersticious & demute of them, but also the least religious, the greatest mockers of all religion, the most vicious and vnruly of all, are sore offended with their Priestes and Monkes, and crie out against them, that thei leade an offen­siue life, and a life that seemes not to bee according to their profession. And therfore there are many of bothe sortes, that care neither for them, their calling, nor religiō. But because thei can not iudge of true re­ligion, Hypocrisie in stead of holy life. vpright life, and good conuersatiō, accordyng to the rule of Gods worde, thei are contented with the life of their Priests and Monkes, so that there bee no notable or apparant vice in them. It sufficeth thē, if thei haue onely an outward shewe of dis­cretion and holinesse, which thei take prin­cipally to consist in superstition, hypocri­sie, ceremonies, counterfaiting, & outward works: and not in true Christian vertues. And therfore, whosoeuer can best plaie the supersticious hypocrite, pleaseth thē best, and is best esteemed amongest them. And this knew Iulian the Apostata very well. A reformatiō of Iulian in the heathens Priestes. Therefore, he commaunded the Priestes religions and Ministers of the heathens [Page] God, to enforce themselues at the least to counterfaite as nigh as thei could the life and maners of the Pastors and Ministers of the Christians: and that thei should vse themselues so, that there might bee no ap­parant or notable crime in them, Tripart. hist. lib. 6. cap. 28. whiche might make the people mislike thē, their Ministerie, or the Religion of the Gods whiche thei serued. Wherefore, he forbadd them to go to any common plaies, to Ta­uernes, or to meddle with any filthie prac­tise, Popish refor­mation. or any vnhonest arte not seemely for their callyng. To be shorte, he made suche a reformation amōg these fellowes, as the Pope and his make commonly among them selues for their Priestes, Monkes, and the rest of their Clergie. For whē thei see that euery mā crieth out at their pride, pompe, brauerie, pleasures, ditties, and at their greate excesse in all thynges, at their Epicurian life, giuen ouer to al filthinesse and enormitie more then any other, thei make a shewe of reformation and creation of suche vice and horrible sin as raigneth amongst them, whiche thei can in no wise excuse: but in the meane while, thei neuer come to the principall matter, but are con­tented to dazell the eyes of the poore igno­rant [Page] with a fained apparance of slight re­formation, as in apparrell, in pompes, in meates, & excessiue brauenesse, in haukes, in horses, in pastimes, and in the obserua­tion of their Ceremonies, and suche like thynges: and as for the moste notable and infamous vices whiche thei can not for­beare nor correct, it sufficeth for reforma­tion thereof to woorke secretly, and not so openly and commonly that all the worlde perceiue it, and point at them, and that the moste vicious, vnruly, and moste offenciue them selues, be not offended with their of­fensiue life. In this meane while, there is no talke at all of their false doctrine, nor of the abuse in their Religion, and in their whole state, but only in these things which are so euidēt and intollerable, that there is no man can beare with it, no man so blunt or blinde, that can not perceiue it, and that knoweth it not, and openly cōdemneth it.

Thē all their reformatiō is none other thing, but onely an hypocrisie, which serueth thē for a cause, the better to couer their filthinesse before men, to th'ende that their estate be not discried, nor deffamed.

This reformation is of lesse ap­pearaunce, then the reformation of Iulian [Page] the Apostata. For, he did not onely reforme the priestes of his religion, as I haue said, but he did also shewe hymself to bee a very good Emperor, liberall, and charitable to y ^e poore. The Philoso­phicall life of Iulian. For, his life would shame a greate many now adaies. I say not onely Empe­rors, kinges, and Christen princes, Popes Cardinalles and prelates of the Churche, whiche are more worldly, then the world it self, but euen Monkes, Hermites, and the moste reformed, and the straightest liuers of thē all, though their appearance of holi­nesse be neuer so greate. Tripart. hist. lib. 6. For, firste he was very well learned in all humain learnyng and very studious, so that he was alwaies at his booke, or otherwise occupied in some verteous and honest exercise, at the least in outward shewe. And therfore he loued wise menne, Iulians court Tripart. hist. lib. 6. but principally Philosophers, with whō his court was euer furnished. Since Iulius Caesars tyme, there was no emperor but he, that could recite in the Senate or coūcell, the orations or declarations of his owne makyng. As for his court, and y ^e rest of his life, he liued more like a sober and cō tinent Philosopher, then like an Emperor or worldly prince: & therefore he put awaie his Cookes, vsyng suche sober and simple [Page] diet, that he needed thē not. Yea, he had no Barber of his own, for he said one Barber could serue a great many men. To be short he liued a Mōkish life. The Monkish bringyng vp of Iulian. For, he was taught and brought vp in his youth with Monkes who in those daies, wer not so sore degene­rated frō the maners of th'auncient Mon­kerie, as thei are at this present: But their life had greate appearaunce of holinesse. Iulian therfore, had a smatche of his youth­ly instructiō and bringing vp, which serued him the better to colour his Idolatrie. For this deuill profited so wel in that Monkish schole, that he had good skill in dissēbling. To be short, The dissimu­lation of Iu­lian. he lead suche a life, as if there were any at this daie: I will not speake of princes, but of prelates of y ^e popish churche (who ought to bee the light of other) that should liue suche a life, in suche cōuersatiō and suche knowledge, men would esteeme them for holy men, yea, thei would worship thē as yong little gods. For, after his wife died, The conti­nence of Iu­lian. he neuer maried again, but liued in cō tinence all the reste of his life, neither was there at any tyme, any whoredō perceiued in hym. Furthermore, he had no seruaūtes about him, to maintain pleasure or pastime but onely to serue his necessitie. And as [Page] touchyng his liberalitie & charitie, The founda­tion of Ho­spitalles by Iulian. wherof I spake before, he erected hospitalles, after the thexample of the Christians, aswell for waifaryng straungers, as for those of the countries: and cōmaūded suche to be erec­ted, throughout all his cities. And gaue to thē greate reuenues, bothe of corne, wine, money, and all other thynges necessary for the maintenaūce of the charges therof: but chiefly he gaue greate liuyng to the poore, that kept the temple of the Gods. He com­maunded also, The charitie of the auncient Chri­stians. y ^• the heathens should make collections for the relief of y ^• poore, as chri­stians did. For he said, y ^t it should be great shame for them, if those wicked Galileās, which frō time to time had suffred so great hinderance and losses, and so greate perse­cution for their religiō, should be so liberal & charitable, that not onely thei should su­stain the poore, whiche were of their owne religion, but also should succor & help both Iewes and Gentiles, whiche were their e­nemies, and that he which had the Empire of the whole worlde, and thei that followed his religion, should be more niggardes to­wardes their owne, then the Galileās wer to strangers, yea, to their mortal enemies. And therefore he thought it greate shame, [Page] bothe for hym and his Religion (whiche he would exalt aboue the christian religiō) to be ouereome in liberalitie and largenesse, by the Christians, whō he called Galileās in despite and mockerie, (because Christe and his Apostles came out of the countrie of Galile, whiche was the moste despised euen emongest the Iewes: as it appeareth by diuers places of the Gospell, and speci­ally by S. Ihon.) And therefore he named Iesus Christ with the same name, callyng hym Galilean in despite and mockerie.

For, Ihon. 1. 7. ought that I cā perceiue, al this liberalitie of Iulian, Christians called Gali­leans. y ^t thou hast talked of, proceaded not of true liberalitie, nor true charitie, that he gaue to the poore and needy, but for enuie of the Christians, and spite that he had, that their charitie and li­beralitie, did so muche honor their religiō, drewe men to it, and dishonor the Painims religion. And therefore he would not, that their religiō should be lesse honored in this matter, then the Christian religiō. And by that I perceiue, that the christians in those daies, had to doe with a subtle Deuill: who could cunnyngly chaunge hymself from a blacke Deuill into a white. But I would wishe, if we can now haue Angels in stede [Page] of deuills, that at least we had many suche deuills in that point, but principally emō ­gest you that brag so muche of the reforma­tiō of the Gospel. For, seing y ^t you hate the Pope, & prelates of the Churche, Priestes, Monkes, and all the Religion whiche you call Popishe, and that ye crie so muche a­gainst them: I would ye would (in spite of thē, The example of Iulian to the shame of Christians. and in shame of thē) become more libe­rall and charitable then ye bee: and that ye had more care for the poore that are emōgst you, then ye haue: and y ^t ye would so honor your religion, that ye might keepe it from blame, and that those whiche you call Pa­pistes, should not surmount you in libera­litie and charitie, as Iulian did to honor his religion, in despite of Christ, and the Chri­stian religion. For, if liberalitie & charitie were as greate in these daies emong you, as in old tyme it was emōg auncient chri­stians: ye should haue as greate a vantage ouer your enemies, as those good Christi­ans had ouer the Gentiles. But you care not for any suche honour. How saiest thou Eustace, is not this true?

Though thei brag neuer so muche of their religion, Charitie re­quired in those that brag of the Gospell. and shewe thēselues very well affected to it, and desire greately the [Page] aduauncyng and exaltyng thereof, and the abolishyng of ours, neuerthelesse, their de­uotiō is not so great, that thei become one penie y ^e more liberall for it, neither is their charitie so great, that thei forget any iotte of their coueteousnesse, whiche is greater, more gredy and insaciably in them, then e­uer it was, or is emong vs, whom thei call Papistes, or emongest our Priestes, Mon­kes, and Prelates, against whom thei crie out, as though all charitie were quenched in them, and that there were no coueteous­nesse in all the worlde, but theirs. For, so far are these newe Christians, frō giuyng any thing of theirs, to y ^e relief of the poore, that thei euen take awaie that, whiche o­thers haue giuen thē heretofore. Yea, so far are thei frō erectyng, or giuyng any thyng to Hospitalls, that thei will not maintaine those, whiche were founded by their prede­cessors to their hādes. There are many ho­spitals, whiche heretofore haue bin gouer­ned by priestes, whiche were muche better gouerned then, then thei bee now by these newe Churche reformers. For maisters of Hospitals are many tymes made, as Bai­liffes, and other officers bee made, not so muche to minister Iustice, & to execute the [Page] office cōmitted to them, as to fill their pur­ses, and to make theim riche. Is not this a godly reformation, to make maisters of ho­spitalles, not suche as are mete to gouerne the goodes of y ^e poore, but suche as cā shift for themselues, and make the poore faste.

What answerest y ^u to that Theo­phast? me thinkes Eustace speaketh reasō.

I would he had lesse reason so to saie, but yet he taketh euery thyng at the worst. For he loketh so muche at those that dooe not their duetie, that he forgetteth to looke on those that doe it. But put the case that there wer greater disorder in this matter on our behalfe then there is. I would y ^e Papistes (whom Eustace now defendeth) would so enuie vs, that in spite of vs, thei would become more charitable and honest then either thei or we bee yet, and that thei would surmounte vs in all vertues. But though thei be holden for neuer so zealous in their Religion, yet I feare not that thei will so dishonor vs, as I haue wished.

I think that neither thei nor you are so spitefully bent, to goe about to disho­nor one an other after this sort, how spitful so euer ye be one against an ot [...]er in other thinges. But we will leaue suche occasiōs [Page] in whiche some will whiten themselues in blackyng other, and talke we again of Iu­lian the Apostata, whose storie thou haste not yet ended. Thou hast already told, how he transfigured hymself into a white deuil diuers waies, but thou haste not yet decla­red, how the white Deuill become blacke.

Whē he saw, that by all the mea­nes that he could deuise, he could not abo­lishe the Christian Religion, and establish and augument the Heathen Religion, but that contrariwise it increased more and more, he was merueilous angrie, and in suche rage, as he could not forbeare, but in the ende manifestly to open it. And here vpon he forbad the Christians, the reading of the Heathen Poetes, Orators, and Phi­losophers: to the ende that thei might not alledge thelm for aucthoritie againste the Heathens. For, he vsed to saie: the Christi­ans dooe pricke vs and thruste vs through, with our owne Fathers, because thei did confounde the Heathens with their owne bookes: And whipped thē with their owne Roddes, as the faithfull at this daie dooe whipp the Papistes. For, if we had none o­ther bookes but their own, we should haue sufficient to condemne them all of false re­ligion [Page] and abuse. Wherefore if thei would doe well, thei should rather forbid the faithful to read their bookes, then the holy scri­pture. For, the dishonor is the greater vnto them, if thei bee condemned by their owne writinges, & by suche bookes as thei make of greater aucthoritie, then the scripture it self, for that thei will rule y ^• doctrine therof according to y ^e contētes of thesame bokes.

But did not Iulian the Apostata otherwise persecute the christians, then to forbid them the readyng of these bookes.

He could not wholy forbeare per­secutyng of thē, and would haue vsed more crueltie, if he had durst. But his deuil was sore troubled in this. For, when he would haue plaied the black deuill, and haue spe­wed out his swellyng venim, two thinges hindered hym: The one was that, whereof I spake before, that is, that he sawe that it profited little or nothyng to retourne to that first furie, wherewith he vsed of olde tyme to stirre and enflame auncient Ty­rauntes, to suche cruell persecutiō against the Christians. For, he had often prooued full sore against his will. O how the fleshe and constancie of Christians had repulsed the sharpe pointes of the cuttyng swordes [Page] of tyrauntes, quenched their furies, & van­quished all their rage and furie. On the o­ther side, this Deuill sawe, that in Iulians tyme the nomber of the Christians was so greate, that Iulian could not vse greeuous and cruel persecution amongst them, without his hinderaunce, and great daunger of his person and Empire. For, his court, yea and his campe were full of them. Yea how many Lordes, Captaines, and Officers had he in his Court that were Christians? amōgst whom Valentinian that was Em­perour after him, was in great authoritie. Who so little feared in Iulians time to de­clare the honor & reuerence that he beare to the Christian religiō, and how he hated Iulians Paganisme, and that entring on a daie in Iulians company into the Temple of Fortune, (whom the Panims helde for a Goddesse) he strooke a Priest on the eare which sprinckled Holy water at the entrie of the tēple, because he threw a fewe drops on his Cloake: and tolde hym that he had spoyld hym, and not purged hym. For the Panims beleeued as our Papistes now a daies doe, that sinnes were purged awaie by Holy water. Seing then y ^t Valentinian durst bee so hardy in the presence of Iulian [Page] hymself his Emperor & Prince, Iulian had not so little vnderstandyng but he did wel foresee and cōsider, what trouble he should bryng not onely his Court in, but also his Empire, if his deuil should become a black deuill and tirannous persecutor. Where­fore, he was constrained to countefaite the white Deuil, & dissemblingly to let many matters slippe, whiche neuerthelesse were greate greefe and harte breakyng to hym: But he was fame to bee patient perforce. And when he sawe that the Christian reli­gion prospered more and more, when thei had any release without persecution, this white Deuill forgetting the maske wher­with he was disguised, falling into a great rage, came to his natural and first occupa­tion, and became a black Deuill as before. And then knowyng not at whiche ende to begin, but perceiuyng all thynges went from euill to worse, beeyng at his wittes ende, he knewe not what part to plaie.

Verely hee had a troublesome parte to plaie, and not without cause, for he had to doe with a very strong aduersarie, when he had to do with God. For were he white Deuill, black Deuill, or trāsformed into what Deuill he would, God knewe [Page] hym well enough what maske so euer he tooke on, and knew the waie how to ouer­throwe all his enterprizes and practizes, and to confounde and ouercome hym.

There are many now adaies in the world that plaie the same parte, and a­mongst them many that are, Apostates as Iulian was: for thei haue had sufficient knowledge of the Gospell, to be condēned with him: But these fellowes are as much troubled to play those parts that thei play as Iulian and his Deuill was. For thei see y ^t it is impossible to finde water inough to quēch the fire of the Gospel which is kind­led round about them on euery side. Thei see there is no hope to quenche it by their fires, as heretofore thei haue thought. For experience hath taught them, that one fire quencheth not an other, but rather enfla­meth it the more. Thei see also into what daunger thei are like to bring themselues, if thei continue suche Tarmagantes and plaie the blacke Deuils as thei haue doen heretofore. And therefore now thei beg in to plaie the white Deuils, more then thei haue doen, & are contented to confesse that their cruell and rigorous maner was not the best nor surest waie for them. For this [Page] cause thei are contented to goe more gent­ly to work, and to hide their black Deuils hornes more then thei had wont, til thei see occasion to shew them againe, more safely, & accordyng as their shal see their strength encrease or deminishe, and as their desired meanes shall be graunted or debarred thē. For looke thei neuer so smoothe, it is easie to be iudged what thei pretende, and that thei counterfaite the white Deuilles, but onely because thei cānot be black Deuils, or suche as maie beare the whole swaie.

I vnderstande now what thou meanest, let them play their partes as thei can, seyng thei can not as thei would: and in y ^e meane while make thou ready to shew vs farther of white Deuilles, as thou pro­misest, before thou toldest vs of Iulian the Apostata, and of those De­uils parts that he plaied.

¶The third Dialogue called white Deuilles.

SEyng we are all agreed to talke of white Deuils, now y ^t wee haue talked of blacke Deuilles.

And I am ready to heare what thou wilt saie, touching them.

Before Theophrastus enter into this matter, I thinke good to remember one poinct, whiche I forgate, when I tal­ked of the difference, whiche wee ought to make, betwene blacke and white Deuils.

What is that?

It is, that as there is difference, betwene blacke & white Deuils, there are also diuers kindes of white deuils. For as some deuils are blacker one thē another, so some are likewise whiter one thē another.

I thinke thou meanest thereby, that some of thē haue fairer shewe of good­nesse then other some haue, and can better counterfect the Angelles.

[Page]

That is without doubt, and therfore in comparyng some with other some, thei maie seme to be blacke Deuils, which otherwise seme to be white.

I doe not well vnderstand, what thou meanest.

I will make thee vnderstande it by example. Seyng the Papistes, whiche resist the Gospell, be named Christians as well as other, thei maie bee counted white Deuils, in comparison of Iewes, Turkes and Painims, whiche declare thēselues to be open enemies, bothe of Christ & his Go­spell: but if thou compare them with those, that bragge of the title and reformation of the Gospell, the persecuting Papistes wil seme blacke deuils, when other shall seme white. For, thei be bothe false Christians, but th'one hath a fairer shew then th'other, for he couereth hymself with the cloake of the Gospell, & the reformation of thesame.

I vnderstand thee very well, but let vs now heare what Theophrastus hath to saie.

The Euāgelistes saie not onely, Marke. 5. that those possessed wherof we spake before came & presented thē selues before Christ, Luke. 8. but S. Marke and S. Luke saie farther, Matth. 8. [Page] that he of whō thei write, fell on his knees before Christ, The Deuilles worshippyng and cōfessing Iesus Christ. & worshipped hym. And fur­thermore, all the thre Euāgelistes whiche haue written this storie, witnesse, that both these possessed cōfessed openly, that Iesus Christ was the Sonne of God, yea, of the highest God.

Thei made almoste as good a cō ­fession of Iesus Christe, Ihon. 6. as sainct Peter and his fellowes did. Matth. 8.

But thei did it not with suche a hart, nor to suche an ende, for that thei wer Deuilles, whiche spake it by the mouthes of these possessed.

I thinke no lesse. But what was the cause thinkest thou, that thei did so? for the Deuill hateth none so muche as Iesus Christe, and feareth nothyng more then that Iesus Christ should bee esteemed and acknowledged emong menne, for the true sonne of God, as these Deuilles confessed.

The Deuill honoured not Iesus Christe, onely by the mouthes of these pos­sessed, but also by other, of whiche Sainct Marke and Saincte Luke make expresse mention. Marke. 1. Thei saie first, Luke. 8. that in the Sina­gogue of Capernaum, there was a manne whiche had an euill Spirite, that cried out [Page] when he perceiued Iesus Christ, and saied emongest other thynges, I knowe that thou art the holy one of God.

Wherefore did the Deuill call Iesus Christ, the holy one of God?

It is as muche to saie, as that he knewe Iesus Christe, to be the holy one of holy ones, Ihon. 17. that is to saie, the true sonne of God, Actes. 16. whō the Father hath sent to sanctifie mankinde: we read also in the Actes of the Apostles, The Sooth­sayer of Phi­lip. that Macedonia in the toune of Philippi, there was a maide that had a spi­rite of sothsaiyng, whiche gather mastres muche gain with sothsaiyng, she followed Paule and his fellowes, and cried saiyng: these men are the seruauntes of the moste high God, whiche shewe vnto vs the waie of saluation, and this did she many tymes.

This Deuill whiche spake in this sothsaiyng maide, made no mention of Iesus Christe, in the wordes whiche he vsed to Paule and his fellowes.

Though he named not Iesus Christ by name, yet he did hym the greatest honor that might bee. For, praisyng the Apostles and seruauntes of Iesus Christ, as he prai­seth them, he declareth their doctrine to be of God, and to bryng true saluation vnto [Page] mā. Now, seyng the Apostles taught, that this saluation was communicated to man, by Iesus Christ, and by none other: this e­uill Spirite plainly confessed, that Iesus Christ was the sauior of the world, the true sonne of God, and generally all y ^e doctrine contained in the Euangelistes, whiche he approued, in the approuyng of the Mini­sters of thesame, because thei preached it.

Thou haste not yet tolde me, The confessiō and constrai­ned praiers of Deuilles. why these euill spirites made suche confession, and why thei shewed this honour to Iesus Christ, whom the deuill goeth about with might and maine, alwaies to dishonour.

There are many causes that mo­ued them so to doe. First, when the Deuill must appere before God, he is like a trans­gressor, that cōmeth before his Prince and Iudge. Who, how wicked and rebellious so euer he be, is cōstrained spite of his teeth to acknowledge hym his Prince & Iudge, & to confesse y ^e truth vnto him of al his mis­behauior. For, if he will not confesse it wil­lingly, the racke shall make him confesse it whether he will or no. So these Deuilles whiche were in these possessed, were in the presence of Christ, not onely as transgres­sors, whiche are brought before the Iudge, [Page] to haue sentence of condemnation, but as transgressours, whiche the Iudge hymself tooke with the dee [...]e doyng, and which are presently condemned, because thei can not deny the fault, that thei were takē withall. For Iesus Christ tooke these d [...]s exer­cising the greatest crueltie that thei could, on these persones whom thei had possessed, and seducyng the people as muche as was possible. And because thei are perpetuall e­nemies of God, & are taken with the deede doing, and cannot resist his power, thei are constrained by force to honor hym, & shewe hym homage, and to acknowledge and cō ­fesse him to be suche as he is Thei do it likewise to flatter him, because thei knew well inough that it bootes not to resist hym by strength, for he is stronger then thei.

Me thinketh that these words a­agree very well with y ^e other words which the Deuils vsed to Iesus Christ▪ For, thei cried? The cōplaint of Deuilles. What hast thou to do with vs Iesus the Sonne of God? Math. 8. Art thou come hether­to torment vs before the tyme? Mark. 5. Wee praie thee and charge thee by God, Luk. 8. that thou tor­ment vs not. It is also writtē, that thei be­sought Iesus very instantly, that he would not send thē out of the countrey, nor into y ^e [Page] bottomlesse pitt, but if he would [...]ast them out of the possessed, that he would giue thē leaue to goe amongst the heard of Swine y ^• fed therby, and to remaine amōgst them.

The possessed of which S. Mark and S. Luke make mention, whiche was in y ^• Sinagogue of Capernaum, cried al­so: Oh what hast thou to do with vs Iesus of Nazareth? Art thou come to destroy vs?

By these wordes wee maie easily iudge, Marke. 5. that the worshippyng confessiō and praier that these Deuilles made, Luke. 8. was but by constraint, and therefore proceeded not of any good will either of the possessed, or of the Deuilles that were in them, but by the power of God, whiche enforced and cō ­strained them so to saie. Thei also did it, to obtaine gentler intreating at Iesus hand, then thei deserued.

It wel appeareth, that thei know Iesus Christ, but thei will not obeie hym, but resist hym as muche as thei can. And though thei bee not able to resist hym, The Deuilles desire attone­ment. yet thei will, yet thei will fight against hym: but perceiuyng that thei be too weake and ouercome, thei giue hym faire words, thei beseeche hym as their maister. And here it should seeme that their furie and rage wer [Page] subdued, but it is but in shew and by force. Thei complaine of Iesus Christe as if he did them wrong, or that he vsed them more vncurteously thē thei deserued, and before their tyme be come. To bee short [...], thei de­sire nothyng but peace and agreement.

And notwithstanding, seing that the Deuill is authour of warre and strife▪ peace can not greatly please hym.

Also he desireth not peace for that it pleaseth him, but only to escape y ^• hands of Iesus Christ. For he is [...] th [...] enemie whiche being beaten & ouercome, desireth to get out of his enemies handes that hath ouercome him, y ^t afterwarde he maie more strongly and cruelly warre against hym.

It is no maruaile though the de­uill vse this subtiltie and dissimulation: for there are diuers men that [...] the same ma­ny tymes, not onely towards m [...]n, but to­wards GOD himself. Wherefore, in my iudgement, we may wel compare them to these possessed, & make thē their fellowes.

Tel me thy mynd more plainely.

I haue knowen diuers, that in tyme of health & prosperitie, haue not one­ly giuen them selues ouer to the greatest filthinesse and mischeef that is possible for [Page] any man to committ, but also haue openly withstood God, as if thei would willingly defi [...] hym, and pluck him out of his celesti­all Throne. But afterwarde when God hath laid his hand on them, either by gree­uous and dangerous sicknesses, or by some other misery and mishap, so, that the daun­ger was extreame, thei then became good Deuils, Good Deuils when thei could do no more harme. like to those of whom wee talke. Thou neuer sawest more gētle, more trac­table, nor more deuout people in outwarde shew. Thei are the best Catholiques that maie be found. Thei yeeld, thei promise to become the honestest mē in y ^e world. They will neuer doe more amisse, but will liue a straiter and holier life, thē holy Hermites themselues. But when it is once past, and the daūger escaped, thei forget all that thei haue promised, and like wilde beastes that haue gotte their uerkes out of the coller, thei retourne to their first nature, and be­come worse then euer thei were.

There is nothyng that more ma­nifesteth those sortes of Deuisses and pos­sessed, The Gospell manifesteth Deuilles. then the pure preaching of the word of God: it is then principally, that thei vse those wordes that the Deuils vsed whiche Iesus Christ cast out, whereof wee talked [Page] euen now. For there are many (but chiefly) Priests, Monkes, and other principall vp­holders of Antichrist, & of his sinagouge, which is the Romish Court and Church,) whiche many tymes plaie the prankes of this Deuill. For thei resist the Gospell of Iesus Christ, and those that maintain and followe the same with might and maine, with fire and sworde, and by al other mea­nes that thei can imagine and inuent. It is them that crie out against Iesus Christ, and saye: What haste thou to doe with vs: why art thou come to tormēt vs before our tyme? Suffer vs in peace and quietnesse, wee haue nothyng to saie to thee. I thinke Ierome, that thou hast often heard, the ene­mies and persecutours of the Gospell, vse suche like wordes.

It is ordinarie with the wicked enemies of God, The wicked accusing of the Gospell. to laie all the fault on the Gospell, and on those that faithfully fauor and followe the fame, accordyng to their duetie, as if thei wer rebelles, fraimakers, sedicious, and troublers of common peace and quietnesse.

Wee haue manifest examples of this that thou speakest, Luke. 23. as well in the Pro­phetes and Apostles, Actes. 27. as in Christ hymself, [Page] for these haue all been burthened, with the self same accusation.

The like maie be saied of all the Martyres, and other faithfull Christians, whiche haue liued at all tymes in y ^• world. But to retourne to our talke, of those De­uilles and possessed, I my self haue heard some ere now, that haue fa [...]ed to the true Ministers of the Gospell, whom God had sent to declare his truthe: who the Deuill sent ye hether: The cōplaint of the newe possessed. What haue ye to doe here? Why [...]ary ye not in your owne countrey, ye runnagates: what haue you to doe with vs? We haue nothyng to doe with you, we care not for you. Why suffer you vs not in quietnesse and peace? But I remember a pretie saiyng of a Curate once, to a Prea­cher that beganne firste to preache the Go­spell in that countrey.

Why, what saied he?

Why came ye so soone, The maner of gettyng of goodes by Priestes and Monkes. if ye had taried a while longer, all had been ours.

What ment he by that?

He ment that if these newe prea­chers, had not come so sone, and haue prea­ched then y ^t Gospell, which so sore warreth against the Pope and all his Priestes and Monkes: thei would in smal tyme w ^t their [Page] false doctrine and Religion, with their a­buse and su [...]tle practises, easely haue scra­ped and gathered all the gooddes in the worlde to themselues, and haue lefte little or nothyng to othes.

He perceiued it very well: and therefore we maie liken hym and his fello­wes, to those deuils whiche crie: Why art thou come to torment vs before our tyme?

These kind of fellowes that saie, Qui nostra toll [...]t inimicus est: he that taketh awaie ours, is our enemie. Thei regarde not whether thei haue gotten the gooddes that thei possesse, well or euill, wherefore thei esteeme all those to be enemies, To whom the goodes of the Churche be­long. that in reason demaunde restitution of them, and declare that it belongeth not to theim, but that thei haue stolen it frō the churche, and poore members of Iesus Christe. And be­cause thei haue gotten these greate riches whiche thei, their parentes and frendes in­ioye, The cloake wherewith the Prophetes of Antichrist couer them. and whereby thei be maintained, and doe get daily more and more, vnder title of their false pristhood, Mōkerie, and false re­ligion, thei crie out against those that con­demne their estate, as if thei were murthe­rers. For thei knowe that thei cannot bee long mainteined, if that coler or maske be [Page] taken awaie, wherw ^t thei maske and coue [...] all their falshoode, abuse, and blasphemie.

It is very hard for simple & igno­raunt men, The colour that the De­uilles com­plaint hath a­gainst Iesus Christ. to knowe the wrong, that these enemies of the truthe, dooe to the true ser­uauntes of God, by reason of the Deuilish subteltie y ^t thei vse, and their shamelesnesse not vnlike these Deuils, that complained of Iesus Christe: and asked hym, what he ha [...] to dooe with them, as if he had offered them greate wrong, and warred againste theim without reason. For, as for theim, it semeth that thei haue nothyng to saie, but that Iesus Christ should suff [...] thē in peace and quietnesse: and therefore y ^e fault is not in them, as thei saie, that there is no agree­ment betweene Iesus Christe and them, if Iesus Christe did not trouble them, and were cause of all the strife.

I am afraied if thou hold on, What is first to be consi­dered in all controuersie. that thou wilt become the deuills atturney, for it seemeth by thy talke, that thou giuest a very good colour of reason to their cause.

If wee should onely regarde the complaint of the Deuilles, without consi­deryng the principall cause, whervpō this disagreeyng is grounded, it might seeme that Iesus Christ was in great fault. But [Page] we must consider, who began the strife.

Seeyng that God is the God of peace, 1. Cor. 14. and not of strife, Phil. 4. and the Deuill is a murtherer from the beginnyng, Ihon. 8. it is not to bee doubted, but that the Deuill is the aucthour of all the discord and strife.

I putt the case that a whorehun­ter or haude, The cōplain [...] of those that doe wrong against those that receiue wrong. steale awaie an honeste mans wife, and the housbande commeth, and de­maūdeth his wife of this ruffian, that hath stollen her awaie, and reuileth this ruffian or haude, for the wrong that he hath dooen hym, and goeth to lawe with hym, where­by there ariseth great strife, I would aske of thee who were in the faulte? Either the housbande, who hath had this great wrōg, or the Rauisher, who hath plaied hym this wicked pranke.

This whorehunter or ba [...]ed, hath as muche reason to complaine and [...] an­grie, as hath a theefe or robber, whiche is called to account of theftes and robberies whiche he hath committed, and whiche is called to iudgement for thesame.

It is certain, that suche fellowes would haue nothing to doe, with those that thei haue wronged, neither with suche iud­ges, as should call them to accoumpte; and [Page] pronounce sentence against them.

But neuerthelesse it followeth not, but that thei whiche haue been thus wronged, haue iuste occasiō to pursue their right. Neither doeth it followe, but that Iudges and Magistrates, dooe verie well execute their office, in condemnyng suche accordyng to their desertes. And though thei crie out against those whiche sue thē: we haue nothyng to do with you, thei maie well be answered: but we haue to doe with you. For if the wicked and giltie might be quitte, and escape the gallowes with suche cōplaintes and cries, thei would al escape. And if there were reason in these cōplain­tes, the Iudges and not the giltie ought to be condemned, thei that demaunde iustice, and not thei whiche haue cōmitted the fact and deserued correction and punishement. Wherefore the common prouerbe is well verified in suche, as bothe offer wrong and complain, that the lambe hath troubled the wolues water, & he can bothe bite & whine.

This is the greatest wickednesse in the worlde, and yet it is daiely vsed a­gainst Iesus Christ and his Seruauntes, whensoeuer thei haue to doe with the wic­ked, and reproue them of their faultes, and [Page] goe about to bryng them vnder the yoke of the Lorde. This is the cause that thei crie out against the Gospell: This is the mea­nes that thei trouble the world with. The cause why the wic­ked complain of the Gospel▪ This is the cause that euery man crieth against the seruantes of God: Let vs accuse them of fellonie. What saiest thou Tobie?

You haue talked of Priestes and Mōkes, and such other which you cal Pa­pistes, how thei cōplaine as sore wronged, because thei go about to reforme them, ac­cordyng to the word of God, but haue you no such possessed among you? you y ^t [...]unt so much of the reformation of the Gospel? But I promise you I will not accuse you any farther in this matter, but will leaue it to Eustace, who shal go forward with it▪

As for me, Thei whiche abuse the Gospell ma­kyng it serue to their owne gaine and af­fection. I knowe many, whiche liked the Gospell well, when in the begin­nyng their Preachers cried against the a­buse y ^t thei said was in the Romish church, and in Priestes and Monkes. Thei liked well also, that the goods of y ^e church should be taken frō Priests and Monkes, to haue the gouernmēt of them themselues, vnder colour that the Priests and Monkes abu­sed them, and that thei should be put to bet­ter vse, but God knoweth how euill thei [Page] are bestowed vpō many, & in many places.

The worst is, Thei that can not suffer to be reproued by the Mini­sters of the Gospell. that those whiche haue not doen herein as thei ought, and whiche dayly forget themselues more and more, cannot nowadaies so much as suffer the Preachers to admonishe and reproue them, and to stirre them to bestow it where thei ought to bestowe it, accordyng to the order and discipline that heretofore hath been vsed in the Primitiue Churche euen since the Apostles tyme.

Therfore we may well saie of thē, as Theophrastus and Ierome said euē now of our Priestes and Monkes. For I doubt not, but if thei were called to account for the bestowyng of such goods, and if it wer taken out of their handes, as it was taken from our Priestes & Monkes, and giuē to such as should better▪ bestow it, thei would take pepper in the nose, and fal to plaiyng that Deuils parte wherof you spake euen now in good earnest. I am sure thei would at the least play y ^e part as well as you said that our Priestes, Monkes, and their ad­herentes plaied it, when it stood them vpō.

Yea, some of them play that part very well, against their owne Preachers, but I know not by what meanes. For first [Page] ther are many that are so meale mouthed, that thei dare scarce open their mouthes to speake one woorde that should displease in reprouyng their faultes. Some other bet­ter knowing their office, & lesse esteeming their belly, dare boldly reproue the faultes of [...]hose that do amisse, and specially in the bestowyng of the goodes of the poore, but yet thei deale not so sharply with them as thei ought. For thei vse them more fauou­rably then thei vsed the Bishoppes, Prie­stes and Monkes. There is no talke of ta­king away the administration from them, but onely to correct such manifest faultes, as euery man doeth plainly see.

If thei can not suffer to bee admo­nished and reproued so fauourably as thou saiest, how would thei suffer their Prea­chers to vse them, as thei haue vsed our Priestes and Monkes in like matter?

Thou maiest will thinke, that if Priestes and Friers went about to defend their cause with fire and faggot, these fel­lowes would not suffer their swordes to rust in the like cause, whiche thei are well able to do▪ if thei were put to it, but the best [...], Hirelinges & good sheepe­heardes. thei haue no great cause to feare their Preachers therein. For first, ther are more [Page] flatterers and hyr [...]linges whiche will dis [...]semble mens faultes and encourage them therein, then true preachers whiche will speak freely according to their office. Se­condly, the Ministers are of very little po­wer, and therfore there is no daunger to be feared that waie. Thirdly, I thinke that those whiche be of the best sort among thē, desire the abuse onely to bee corrected, and that the goods maie bee employed and be­stowed as thei ought to be. And it is al one to them who doe it, so it be doen according to the order that the Church requireth.

Mee thinkes thou art be [...]ome at­turney for the preachers that thou speakest last of, for thei that wel allow the doctrine whiche thei preache, A slaunder on the good Ministers of the Gospell touchyng the administra­tion of the Churche goodes. speake not so well for them as thou hast doen, but contrariwise accuse them, and saie: that thei would haue the administration of the Church goodes in their own hands, to dispose as thei think good, as Priestes and Monkes haue doen heretofore.

There is a common Prouerbe that saieth: when a man will hang or kill a dogge, he will make hym beleeue that he is mad. So there are some that cannot a­bide such preachers as neither can nor wil [Page] be dombe dogges as thei would haue thē, but saie madnesse to their charge, to make all men hate hym, and to the ende that thei and their Ministerie might haue the lesse aucthoritie. For, the lesser aucthoritie that the Ministerie and Ministers of the truth haue, the greater libertie haue Sacrile­gers, Theeues, and Extortioners, and all other wicked ones. And let the authoritie be once taken from these, thei feare not the hirelynges: Flatteryng Ministers. for thei are dombe Dogges, which will either barke or hold their peace for a soppe, or morsell, or for a messe of hott broth, or a good bang with a staffe. And to be shorte, thei marke what either pleaseth or displeaseth their maisters, to y ^• ende that thei anger them not. Yea, and to please them the better, thei ioyne with them, to barke against those, with whom thei ought to ioyne, to hunt out the Wolfe.

It is possible that these of whom thou speakest, haue vsed the reformation of the Gospel (suche as it is) chiefly to be fin­geryng of Churche goodes. And because thei haue vsed y ^e title of the Gospell to get it into their handes, therefore thei vse the Ministers that reprooue them of the euill administration thereof (as thei list, fearing [Page] least thei reprooue them to the same ende, that thei themselues reproued our Priests and Monkes: that is, to supplye the same place, and enioye the same goodes.

It maie be that there are such as thou speakest of, but I think there are ma­ny [...] saie otherwise then thei think, and make this onely a meane to put the Prea­chers to silence, accusing them of vprores, seditions, and to be busie fellowes, & suche as will take the authoritie & power of the Magistrates in hande: And therefore thei laie to their charge y ^t thei be troublesome, and that if their vndiscreete pratyng were not, all would bee quiet enough: therefore thei crie out that thei should suffer them in peace, for thei haue nothyng to saie to thē, so that no man haue any thing to say vnto them, for thei haue that thei would haue.

Then accordyng to my first talke, wee maie place these (of whom thou now speakest) among the number of those pos­sessed whiche complaine of the rigour and wrong that Iesus Christ shewed vnto thē, as well as Theophrast and Ierome haue placed of Priestes and Monkes.

I wil not say against it, but there are other as well as the [...]e, whiche doe the [Page] like: The enemies af the disci­pline of the Churche. when any thyng is spoken of the obser­uing of such discipline, as Iesus Christ hath appointed, and his Apostles and Disciples, and al the true auncient Church haue put in vr [...], and practised according to the holy word of God. To be short, thei can be contented to heare the preachers crie out against the wic­kednesse of Priestes and Monkes, but in no wise thei maie not awaie to heare of their own. Thei would faine haue a Gospell prea­ched without repentance, & without amend­ment of life. Thei would haue suche libertie vnder title of the Gospell, as to be let lose to their owne pleasures. Thei would be vnbur­thened of the Popes yoke (whom thei call Antichrist,) but will not bee burthened with Christes yoke. Thei would be very wel con­tent, neither to haue Priestes nor Monkes, for their findyng was costly, and the resto­ryng of Church goodes very harde to heare of: And therefore are contented to haue Mi­nisters and Preachers, but not so many as thei had Priestes, for sauyng of charges in maintainyng them: wherein thei shew them selues to be good housbandes, but great hin­derers to the poore flock of Christ, Lack of good Ministers of the Gospell. which re­maine without such foode, & such aboundāce as is necessary for them, and all for lacke of [Page] such preachers & such number as is needful. But the worst is, The cōtempt of the Mini­sters of the Gospell. that thei would haue our poore Ministers and Preachers heads vnder their girdles, as if thei were their seruantes, and tosse them frō post to piller at their plea­sure. And if the Ministers will not do it, but if some of them (well vnderstād their office,) vse suche sufficient honour vnto them as thei ought, to the ende that Iesus Christ and the ministerie of his Church be not dispised and dishonoured, straight waies thei cry out, that suche Ministers be bothe ambicious and re­belles, and that thei will take vpon them the Magistrates office. To be short, if any Mini­ster go about to bryng in such discipline and reformation of the Churche as the Gospell requireth, strait waies thei saie: Why come you hether to trouble vs? Can not you liue quietly your selues, and suffer other to doe so to? You would pluck the sworde out of the Magistrates hande, but ye would bee well swadled with it for your laboures. We haue it by the haft, and you shall wryng it from vs by the edge if ye will needes haue it.

For ought I can perceiue, suche fel­lowes would neither haue Priests, Mōkes, Preachers nor Ministers, to the end that no bodie might let thē, but to know as thei list.

[Page]

I beleue verely that there are such as thou speakest of▪ Thei that are content with outwarde shewe of re­ligion onely. but because thei see that thei can not liue without some forme of reli­gion, neither haue any forme of religiō with­out some Ministers of what qualitie so euer thei bee: therefore thei are constrained at the least to make some outward appearāce. For thei foresee well enough, that all the worlde would crie out on them, calling thē Athistes and Epicures, & would laie to their charge, that thei receiued not the reformation of the Gospell, suche as it is, but onely to scratch to themselues the Church goods vnder title of the same, and to vse what libertie thei list. Therefore thei are contented to haue Prea­chers to preache, so that thei rubbe them not to harde on the gall. Againe, there are other, which are contented to let them speak what thei will, when thei see that thei can not stop their mouthes, and also whē thei can not re­proue and hinder them, but with great disho­nor to themselues. But when the Ministers are earnest with them to liue accordyng to the doctrine preached, there begins the strife. And herein thei be like to those Monkes of whom the Prouerbe is saied: Ryng to Mat­tins and spare not, but say Mattins who list.

Me thinkes these of whō thou spea­kest, [Page] commit the same fault that thei burthen the Pope, Chaunge of Popedome. Bishoppes, Priestes, and Mon­kes withal: for thei accuse them of vsurpyng the power of bothe swordes, that is to saie, bothe the spiritual and temporall sword: and that which thei doe, seemeth to me not much different, but only that where thei accuse the Pope and his Churchmen of takyng the tē ­poral sword from the Magistrate, thei them selues goe about to take awaie the spirituall sworde from the Churche and Ministers of the same, in as much as thei go about to rule them after their owne fantasie. For if thei take their ministers to be the true ministers of the Gospell, thei ought to suffer them to execute the charge that God and the Church hath giuen them. If thei goe about either to take it from them, or to hinder them therein, thei are tyrauntes both to the Church & Mi­nisters of the same. Wherfore the Ministers haue greater occasion to complaine of them, then thei haue of their Ministers: for thei need not greatly to feare, least the ministers of the church set their feete on their throtes, for that thei haue brought thē so low, that in my simple iudgemēt, it is not to be doubted.

Thou maiest also say, that if thei be true Ministers, thei will goe about no suche [Page] thyng, though thei might.

I will leaue to dispute, whether thei be true ministers or no, for thou knowest myne opinion touchyng that: But for that thei esteeme them to bee suche, I haue good occasiō to saie thus muche against them. For if thei hold them for suche, then maie the mi­nisters iustly complaine of them, for takyng awaie that spirituall sworde of the Churche, whiche God hath committed to them, aswell as thei complaine for takyng awaie their sworde. Contrariwise, if thei holde not their ministers for the true ministers of God, why doe thei allow them? And why are those bet­ter welcome to theim, whiche goe aboute to please them in all thynges, like idle belles & hirelinges, then thei that go about to execute their charge, accordyng to the commaunde­ment of the worde of God? By this we maie well perceiue, to what ende these fellowes haue receiued the Gospell, and how thei vse it to their gaine. Thei crie out againste the Pope, and yet thei goe about to set vp suche an othe emong them selues, in that thei doe that, whereof thei accuse the Pope and his. The difference is, Temporall Pope. that where this is a spiri­tuall Pope, thei would make a Temporall Pope, who is more to be feared then y ^t Pope [Page] whiche thei condemne, if he once take roote, and be admitted and maintained: But I wil leaue this talke, for it belongeth not to me. I leaue y ^• charge to those, whom it toucheth nerer then me: onely touchyng this, because I feare me, least the worlde fall in decaie as faste this waie, as euer it did, on the Pope, Priestes, Monkes, and Romishe Churche side, accordyng to our former talke.

Theophrast and Ierome maie not marueile, if I and suche as I am, cannot fol­lowe the Religion and liuyng, whiche thei followe, consideryng that wee see so greate disorder and fault in those, whiche doe moste vant of that reformatiō, which thei so muche set out: for we perceiue, that thei cānot agre themselues. The diuision among those that brag of the reforma­tion of the Gospell. The Ministers are one against an other. And if thei disagree together, thei disagree worse with the Magistrates & peo­ple, and eche of them accuseth other. And for my part, me thinkes the Ministers that haue forsaken the Romishe churche, to set forward that reformation, whiche thei now haue, de­serue to be vsed as thei are. For in sekyng to get the Magistrates and peoples fauour a­gainst the Pope, Priestes and Monkes, thei haue so despised the state of Priesthoode, and ministerie of the Churche, and so magnified [Page] the state of Magistrates, that thei now feele the fruites thereof. Thei thought to sett the Magistrates and people, againste the Pope and his Churche men, but thei haue now set them against thēselues. For thei now drinke of the same cup, that thei gaue other to drinke of. Thei thought thei should bryng a greate enterprise to passe, if thei could driue out the Priestes and Monkes, to sette those in their steede, Magistrates which vsurpe authoritie o­uer the Churche. whom thei haue now placed. Thei thought it a goodly reformation in y ^e church, to abolishe all the Cannons and Decrres, with the good statutes, whiche the auncient Fathers and Doctors had ordained, to maintaine good discipline in the Churche. Thei haue putte all into the Magistrates handes, and haue made them maisters of the church. It is no maruaile, though thei will not one­ly maintain that, whiche thei haue in posses­siō, but also encroche farther, to be out of the subiection of all discipline. Yea, thei are not contented herewith, but where thei should be subiecte to the discipline, whiche haue been ordained in the churche, thei themselues will appoincte suche discipline, aswell to the Mi­nisters, as to the whole churche, as shal seme good vnto theim. Yet when thei haue that, thei themselues will not bee subiecte to that [Page] lawe and discipline, which thei haue appoin­cted to other, but will dispence with it, aswel for themselues, as for those whom thei fauor as thei thinke good, euē aswell as the Pope. Wherfore, thei can neither blame the Pope, nor his churche menne herein, but thei must likewise blame themselues, for that thei doe thesame.

If it bee not thesame, at the least it is verie like.

Furthermore, Mans tradi­tions chaun­ged into o­ther as ill. I cā not se by what reason, thei can reiect the Traditions of our good aunciente Fathers, vnder the title of mannes Traditions, saiyng, that thei were men, and that wee must staie onely vpon the pure woorde of the Lorde. Why, are thei not then contented with this woorde? Why, can thei not then awaie with suche discipline, as Iesus Christe hymself hath ordained: And suche as his Apostles and disciples haue pra­ctised? For I would aske them but this que­stion. Seeyng thei reicte all Ecclesiasticall Traditions, vnder colour that wee ought to followe onely the woorde of GOD, whiche worde condemneth all mannes Traditions: are not thei men as well as our predecessors were? And if thei can not suffer the traditiōs of our predecessors, what reason is it, that we [Page] should the rather receiue theirs, in steede of the simple and pure ordenaunces of Iesus Christ? For I dare saie, that thei haue aboli­shed, as many or more as theirs, whiche haue better ground, and are muche more agreable to the rule and Discipline of the Primitiue Churche.

I confesse for my part, that there is greate abuse growne, in the aunciente disci­pline of the Churche: But me thinkes thei should be contented to correct thē, and keepe that which is good, and accordyng to the first ordenaunce of Iesus Christ, & not abolish al.

Thou saiest truthe. But thei maie not be tolde of their faultes, whiche be verie greate. For if thei be tolde of them, then thei crie out: why doe you trouble vs? Are not all thynges in good order? And, if we goe about to shewe theim their disorder by the worde of God, and wherein their Traditions are dif­ferent from the same, thei answere, that thei will dispute no more, and that thei bee alrea­die resolued, what thei ought to beleeue and followe. And yet when we made the like an­swere to them, and those that holde the same religion, thei mocked vs, and said we answe­red so, because we durst not stand to the trial and that wee haue suche mistrust in our wea­pon, [Page] that we be afraied to enter into combat.

Surely, now I perceiue that thou art at them in good earnest, me thinkes thou handlest theim as thei ought to bee handled. For thou beatest them with their owne rod, and condemnes? theim with their owne sen­tēce. But I praie thee, how art thou become so greate a doctor in diuinitie? How couldest thou perceiue all this that thou hast spoken?

How could I not perceiue y ^t, which is manifest to all menne: For, since our firste conuersation together, might I not wel per­ceiue that, whiche I sawe and heard daiely? I reporte mee to Ierome and Theophrastus thē selues, whether this be true or not? For, although we be of Religion and opinion dif­ferēt, yet I take thē to be so honest, that thei will not lye against their owne conscience.

Tobie and you haue made a verie long discourse, wherein ye haue very nere touched vs, and likewise all these that dooe bragge at this daie, of the reformation of the Gospell, wherin ye haue neither spared Ma­gistrate, Minister, nor people.

Yet we haue spared you more, then you haue spared vs: or our Prelates, pastors, or Magistrates. But when wee saie trothe, what neede we to speake.

[Page]

I cōfesse that whiche you haue spo­ken, is not so false as I would it wer: but me seemeth you doe vs wrong, in that you make no difference, betweene those that abuse the Gospell (as you saie) & those that liue accor­dyng to thesame: but condemne all, as well the good as the euill, without iudgyng the cause: Condemna­tion without iudgyng the cause. wherin me thinkes ye shewe your sel­ues, as if ye would condemne Iesus Christ, as well as the deuills▪ whiche complained of hym, because thei are one against an other, & at difference: if we condēne all those that are at strife, we must aswell condēne God as the deuill: for thei were alwaies at strife, & shall neuer be otherwise, Perpetuall strife betwene God and the Deuill, and his seruaunts. nor cā not. Now, if God and the deuill bee at strife, we maie not saie, that those which take Gods part in aniwise, agree with those that take the deuills parte. And to take bothe parts is impossible: seyng then that it is so, it can not bee but that (those whiche serue the deuill, and will not become obediēt to God) will alwaies burthen y ^e true seruantes of God, with thesaid complaintes, that the deuils laied to Iesus Christe. For, if the deuil durst do it to the maister, it is not to be doubted, but y ^t he wil giue boldnesse to his to do the like to y ^e seruantes of Iesus Christ, seyng he durst doe it to Christ hymself.

[Page]

I agree to all that. But you that glorie so muche in the reformation of your Gospell, bragge to bee all faithfull, all good men, to followe the pure worde of God, to be all led and guided by the holy ghost, and con­demne all others that are not of your secte.

That notwithstādyng it followeth not, that all thei that bragge of suche things, be suche as thei would bee estemed. For, the churche of God will neuer be without hypo­crites and false brethren, The euill and the good mingled to­gether in the Churche. mingled emongest the children of God, whiche bryng more dan­gerous and offensiue warre to the churche of God, thē any other enemies whatsoeuer thei be. And therfore there will alwaies be suche Deuilles, and suche possessed inough in the churche as thou speakest of, that will cry out on Christ and his seruantes, and complaine on them, but yet thei are not of the Churche. For there is great differēce betwene beyng of the Churche, The Churche persecuted by her owne. and beeyng in the Churche. But where cā the deuill assaile Christ nerer, and more subtilly then in his church? What sort of men can he better vse to serue his pur­pose, then those, whiche onely will be holden for the true mēbers of the churche, but suche as shalbe in greatest credite, and aucthoritie in thesame? If thou wilt talke of Ministers, [Page] I would aske of thee: when was the churche euer without false Prophetes, dombe doggs flatterers, and Hirelynges, whiche haue al­waies warred against the true Prophetes & Apostles, and against the true Ministers of the lorde? And haue not these been moste pro­moted, and beste estemed emongest men? If ye talke of Kynges, Princes, Lordes, and Magistrates, consider how many haue there been found, that haue yelden suche obediēce to the worde of God, whiche hath been decla­red vnto theim by the Prophetes, and other ministers of the Lorde, and haue shewed thē suche honour and reuerence as thei ought? For one that hath been founde to yeld suche duetie to their Minister, as behoued, there haue been twentie found that haue doen the contrary, which haue not been contented not onely to despise the doctrine of the true ser­uauntes of God, but haue also driuen them out, and persecuted them themselues. And when I speake this, I speake not of suche Princes and Magistrates whiche haue had dominion ouer suche people and Nations as wer esteemed Infidels, but I speak of those that reigned ouer the people whiche were e­steemed of God and of his Church. But how many haue been founde among this people [Page] whiche would haue disposed the religion af­ter their owne fantasies, to make it serue to their affections and commodities, & whiche haue vsurped the offices in the church, which belonged not to them? [...]eroboam. Ahaz. Ozia. Ieroboam, Ahaz, and Ozias, whiche were Kynges ouer Iuda and Israell, do sufficiently witnesse vnto vs. And when all these wer reproued by y ^e Prophets, how were thei receiued? Achab. After that Achab with his Iesabel had peruerted all the diuine seruice, Iesabell. by the meanes of his false Prophets, what said he to Hely? Was it not laied to his charge, that it was he y ^e troubled all Israell? Hely whiche onely went about to set vp the true seruice of God accordyng to his lawe, Hely. troubled all: 2. Kyng. 18. and Achab whiche was cause of all the ruine that was in the Churche of God, Achabs re­proche to Hely. was a good Kyng, and very zealous of the glorie of God. Wherefore rightly Hely answered him: it is thou & thy fathers house­holde that troublest Israell. And here doeth Achab shewe hymself like these Deuilles which complained of Iesus Christ. And yet all these Kynges of whom I haue spoken would not be holden for Infidelles, The rebellion of the Magi­strates and people a­gainst the Ministers of the Lorde. no more then those whiche in these daies will be hol­den for Christiā Princes & magistrates, yea, reformed accordyng to the Gospell: and ne­uerthelesse, [Page] thei will receiue the Gospel but according to their own pleasure. And if that in al tymes there hath been suche contradic­tion of Princes and magistrates against the seruauntes of God, and if thei refused to sub­mit themselues to the worde of God, the re­bellion was not lesse amōg y ^e people, whiche commonly followe the maner of their Prin­ces and Lordes, & rather of those that rebell against God and his seruauntes, thē of those that shewe their duetie as thei ought to God warde. And sithe it is so, what reason is it to condēne as wel the true seruauntes of God, the good Magistrates, and other good men which do well discharge their office, as their aduersaries, which from tyme to tyme haue troubled the Churche.

I graunt that wer no reason, but this is nothyng to my talke.

It is al one: For it semeth that thou wouldest haue so perfect a Churche, y ^t there should be no dissention or discord: but it is in vaine to looke for any such here, as our Sa­uiour Christ hymself hath well declared vn­to vs by the parables and similitudes which he vsed. For there will alwaies bee ill fishe a­mong the good in the net of the Gospel, and the Lordes fielde will neuer bee so cleane in [Page] this worlde, [...]ypocrites a­ [...]ong the [...]ithfull in [...] Churche. but that there will bee alwaies darness mingled with the good seede, which wil be so like in growing, y ^• it cā not be kno­wen frō the other, Math. 13. till it shewe it self farther.

What is the cause thereof? Marke. 4.

Among others there are twoo most worthie to be noted.

Whiche be thei?

The first is, Matth. 13. that the Deuill doth al­waies mingle his seed with the Lords seed, vntill the Lorde doe cleane separate them.

And what is the second?

The second is, that the very childrē and seruaunts of God are neuer so perfectly regenerated in the worlde, Rom. 6. 7. 8. neither can not so well mortifie their olde Adam & sinful flesh, Imperfections in the per­fectest. but that there alwaies remaineth many car­nall affections in them, yea, euen in the per­fectest, whiche is the cause thei can not be so perfect as thei ought to be. Wherefore, the most iust are greatly greeued, that thei can not become so obedient to the will of God as thei desire, and as God in his law requireth: euē as S. Paule witnesseth of hymself. Roma. 7. But I wil leaue to talke any more hereof at this tyme, because I wil come to y ^e point y ^t Tobie talked of touching the new temporal Pope.

Truely I would gladly heare thy [Page] mynde therein.

I doubt not but the Deuill would be glad to doe as muche as you haue spoken touchyng this matter, in those places where the spiritual Pope is beaten doune. The founda­tion of the spiritual Pope He hath heaued vp his spirituall Pope, vnder y ^e title of Minister of the Churche, and hath taken occasion to giue vnto hymself many goodly titles, and suche authoritie as the spirite of God giueth to y ^e true Ministers of his word, and their Ministerie: But if the Deuill and his false Prophetes and pastors haue abused the name of this holy ministerie and the true ministers of the Lorde, to vsurpe tyrannie o­uer the Churche of Iesus Christ vnder this colour: it followeth not therefore that the au­thoritie of the true Ministerie of the church, and the true ministers of the Lord, (which is giuen them of God and not of men) ought to bee diminished. Euill refor­ming of the Churche. For whosoeuer vseth suche meane to correct the fault that the Pope and his haue committed in this behalfe, doth not reforme the Church, but deforme it more thē it was before. And therefore when the true Ministers of the Gospell preached in the be­ginnying against the Pope and other false Sheepeheardes whiche haue abused the mi­nisterie of the Church, and wholy ouerthro­wen [Page] it: and whē thei haue admonished Prin­ces and Magistrates to set to hande, that the abuse whiche was in the Church might bee corrected and reformed accordyng to y ^e word of God: thei preached not that the Magistra­tes should take any tyrannie ouer y ^e Church, whiche thei condemned, and that thei should tread the ministerie therof vnder their feete: but that thei ought to bestow their whole po­wer in restoryng of it to such perfectnesse, as it ought to be according to Gods word. And to the ende that the Magistrates should not sticke at it, The declara­tion of the Ministers to the Magistra­tes. and think that it belonged not to them, thei shewed them what was their due­tie, and how muche God had honoured them in callyng them thereto. Thei likewise de­clared vnto them, the honour that the spirite of God sheweth to that holy state in y ^e sacred Scriptures: and what dishonour and iniury the Pope and his prophetes haue doen vnto it. Wherein thei did not amisse, but faithful­ly executed their charge. If there be any that haue passed their boundes therein, I will not excuse their fault. And likewise, if there be a­ny Magistrates, Magistrates abusing the Gospell aud their office. that stretch that farther thē thei ought, whiche hath been preached vnto them by the true ministers of the Lorde, tou­chyng the authoritie and power that y ^e Lord [Page] hath giuen them: the fault is not in the true ministers, but in those which abuse their doc­trine, which is the doctrine of God. For ther is no more reason to blame them in such case then to blame the Prophetes and Apostles because thei writ of the excellencie, as wel of the ministerie of the Gospell, as of the state of Magistrates. For thei wrote not y ^t which thei haue written, to giue the Deuill, false prophetes, and tyrauntes, occasion therby to vsurp tyrannie ouer the Church, but because the troth is so, and that it is needfull that the faithfull should so vnderstande it: for whom thei haue both written and preached, and not for tyrauntes or enemies of the Churche. If there be thē any Magistrates in these daies, whiche vnder title of authoritie and power that God hath giuen them, will take more authoritie and power ouer the Churche then God willeth them, and will make the Mini­sterie of the same subiect vnto them, as the Pope hath made thē subiect to hym and his, and hath also made subiect the power and au­thoritie of Princes & Magistrates: thesame doe verely sett vp a newe Pope, Popedome chaunged & not abolished chaungyng only his coate and maske. And by this mea­nes Sathan shall establishe a newe Pope­dome, vnder another colour, but al wil come [Page] to one ende, though thei take an other waie. And so the tyrannie that he tofore tyme hath vsed ouer the Churche and ministerie of the same, A Popedome more daun­gerous then the first. shall not bee taken awaie, but onely chaunged and disguised.

Nay, it will be worse: for it wil not onely bee chaunged and disguised, but more inforced.

How can that be?

Thou knowest, that what power so euer the Pope and his, haue ouer the church in their estate, yet can thei not doe what thei list, except thei do otherwise then thei ought to doe. For, first thei cā put no man to death: but must deliuer vp to y ^e secular power suche as thei iudge worthy of corporal punishmēt, either for heresie, or cōmittyng of any other crime against the faithe and religion. But if the whole power of the church, be in the ma­gistrates handes, thei maie bind and loose as thei list. Thei nede not to borrowe the sword of an other, whiche thei enioye theimselues. Furthermore, notwithstandyng the greate abuse in the Romishe Churche, yet were the Councels, Sinodes, and auncient cannons alwaies of some aucthoritie with thē. There is neither Pope, Cardinall, nor Bishop, that dare vndertake to admit any into y ^e Ministe­rie [Page] of the Churche, except he haue passed the order which he must passe, and without some forme of electiō. If any be deposed out of the ministerie, he shal not be deposed without be­yng heard, as appertaineth to hym: that is to said, without forme of Ecclesiasticall iudge­ment. But if the whole power be in the Ma­gistrates hand, thei may place or displace the Ministers as thei list, without any Ecclesia­sticall order, be it right or wrong. Thei maie vse thē as seruauntes, that whē thei are wea­rie of them, thei maie put them awaie, or put thē to death as thei list, I meane if the Magistrates bee tyrantes, and haue none that dare gainsaie thē, without the like daunger. And so Wolues shalbe thrust into the Churche of God, and the true shepheardes shalbe driuen out. For tyrantes will neuer abide to heare the troth, as it ought to be told thē: and if thei be no tyrantes, thei will be content with the charge whiche the lorde hath giuen thē, and will beware how thei attribute to their par­ticular, that whiche is common to all the Churche, or which is specially ioyned to the Ministers of the same.

I perceiue thou speakest reason: for though the Pope and his, abuse, and haue of long tyme abused, bothe Councelles and [Page] auncient Cannons, and that thei vse no part of the auncient discipline of the churche, but onely the names and titles: yet dare thei not so openly give themselves over to [...] thei would, if that bridle were not.

Therevpon I conclude, that if this bridle could not so kepe thē, within their boū des, but that thei haue ouerpassed them verie muche, as you saie: it will be worse, whē the power of the churche is in the hādes of those, whiche are armed with the temporall sword, whiche haue none other Lawes to restraine them, and keepe them in their boundes, but suche as thei themselues will take and those at their pleasure. And besides that, how oftē chaunceth it, that th [...]e of this estate, haue neither learning nor knowledge, and are the least exercised in matters belongyng to the Churche: And yet these shalbe thei, that shal commaūde Ministers and Preachers what thei liste, on paine of their sworde: and shall appoinct thē lawes touchyng their estate & ministerie, and likewise to the whole church.

I confesse y ^e al these incōueniences might come of suche tyrannie. And therfore the true ministers of y ^e Gospell, Good Mini­sters preuent the newe Popedome. perceiuyng the subtiltie of satan in suche case, & forseing his pretence, preuent suche thynges betime. [Page] Wherfore, thei crie no lesse against suche ti­ranny & abuse (whē thei perceiue it) then thei haue heretofore cried against the tyrāny and abuse of the Pope, and the Popishe churche.

There are very fewe that doe so, Priestes and Monkes trans­formed. for I know the greatest part to belly gods, flat­terers, hirelinges, who haue the good will of the Magistrates and higher powers, speake as pleaseth them whom thei seeke to please, and confirme their tyrannie: In steede of re­prouyng them, and fightyng in the quarrell of the libertie of the Churche. Wherefore, if thei haue good occasion to call our Priestes and Mōkes belly gods, and false Shepher­des: your preachers are not voide of the same fault, thei can plaie that parte well inough.

I would I could in all pointes dis­proue thee herein. But I praie thee consider whēce those belly gods are come to vs: come not the moste parte of them frō those, whom thou mentionedst euen now? Thinkest thou that all those priestes and monkes, that now hold on our side, are now wholy vnpriested & vnmonked? Thinkest thou not that the deuil hath sent thē emongst vs, to [...]asider the Gos­pel, hauing inough to [...] his turne beside. Wherefore it is no meruaile, if he goe about to sow those [...]ermine vnder other habite and [Page] [...]ler, where suche Apostates will [...] re­ceiued in their [...] habit. For he is conten­ted that thei vncloth y ^e outward habit, so thei vncloche not their priesthood or monkehood. But tho there be suche, yet thanked bee God there are other, whiche are ready & contēted not onely to be driuen awaie and banished in maintainyng the libertie of y ^e true discipline of the Churche, in despite of tyrantes, but al­so to giue their livesin so good a qua [...]ell.

If there be any suche, thei [...] thicke sowē, but come thin vp: and besides that, thei shall finde very fewe, either of their [...], or of the Magistrates or commēs, that wil sticke to thē in the maintenaunce therof: but almost all sortes of men crie out against thē, and against rebelles & sedicious persons that trouble the whole churche. Now, what better hope of reformation, is there too be lo­ked for at your han̄des, then at ours? but onely that it is like [...] ouerthrowen with you, then euer it was [...] nere) by the Popes [...] I dare saie: that I se already [...], that vnder title of reformatiō by the Gospell some christian Princes haue in [...] vsurped more, tyranny▪ ouer the Churches in their dominion, their [...] and his [Page] adherentes in sixe hundred yeres.

Thou talkest at pleasure of affectiō that thou bearest against vs and our religiō. But in this meane while, True refor­mation of the Churche. thou cōsiderest not the goodnesse of those that feare God, aswell Ministers, Magistrates, as common people. For, as there are good Shepherdes, whiche faithfully execute their office, vsurpyng no­thing ouer the Churche or Magistrates, but honoryng thē as thei ought, according to the worde of God: So likewise, are there many true christiā Magistrates, which let helping hande, bothe to the churche, and ministers of thesame, not to oppresse thē, but to helpe and further thē in their charge, asmuch as either of their offices requireth. And when this a­gremēt is betwene the Magistrates and the ministers, the people whiche are committed to their charge, do willingly frams themsel­ues, to yeld to God and their pastors [...] his seruantes, the honor & obedience, whiche thei owe [...]vnto thē. And though the nomber of these be not so great, as it is to be wished, yet there is good hope, that the Lorde will make perfecte that good worke, whiche he hath be­gun in his churche. The ignorāce of many. For, there are many that e [...]re rather of ignorance, then of malice! aud for feare [...]east some newe tyranny should bee [Page] vsed ouer the Churche; the Magistrates and the people, vnder colour of Ministerie, then for any hatred thei beare to good discipline.

You cā very well excuse your [...]aul­tes: this is alwaies your maner, when ye cā not gainsaie that, whiche is euident to all men, to make some execuse. And yet will ye not accepte the excuses of other, though thei be neuer so reasonable.

I excuse nothing, but that that is to be excused. Ignoraunce worthie of blame. I excuse not y ^e ignorance of those whiche are ignorant of the thinges that wee talke of, and chiefly seeyng the Gospell hath been preached so long, and so plainly emong thē. For if thei be ignoraunt, it is their owne fault. It maie be also some preachers faults, which haue not declared these things as thei ought: neither haue had so greate care of the discipline of y ^e churche, as is requisit. Some [...], Fault in the Ministers. because thei are ignorant themselues, and vnderstand not the gouerning of the church. Some for not caring greatly for the flocke to thē committed, and not bearyng so feruent a zeale to the glory of God, & the edi­fication of his churche. Some other, because thei be flatterers, and are afraied to get the [...] will of men, but especially of the higher sort: knowing that thei will not willingly submit [Page] thēselues to discipline. But how soeuer it be, there is difference betweene those that sinne ignorantly, (though it be neuer so grose) and those that sinne vpon pretenced malice. And [...]n thother side, False detrac­tours to hin­der the disci­pline of the Churche. there are so many false repor­ters, & make bates emong men, but chiefly a­bout princes & magistrates, which with their flatterers & slanderers go about nothing els but to hinder y ^t true discipline bee not recei­ued, and restored into the church, as of neces­sitie is requisit. And this thei do, because thei are afraied of it thēselues, for that thei will neither be subiect to god nor his church. And these fellowes finde more, whiche nor onely giue eare to theim, but also [...] detractiōs, then the good preachers find that followe the true doctrine whiche thei preach. These are of the nōber of those deuils, which crie out againste the seruauntes of God, and complaine of them, after thei have doen the worste thei can against them, in sekyng to o­uerthrow the whole ministerie of the church, and all true reformation.

Me thinkes we haue talked long i­nough, of these maner of deuilles and posses­sed, whiche complaine of those whom thei haue wronged, and accuse suche as haue re­ceiued greate iniurie at their handes, tell me [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] now if thou haue any more to saie of other kindes, [...] whiche we haue not yet spoken.

Thou must further note, that those deuilles whiche complained of Christ, com­plained not onely, that he tormented theim before their tyme, but also made requeste vn­to hym, that he would not sende theim to the bottomelesse pitte, nor out of the Countrey▪ but that he would suffer them there.

What saiest thou to that?

First I saie, that all the wicked are [...] offēded, whē thei se & perceiue their iudge. [...]ow the true Ministers of [...]he Lorde are [...]dges of the [...]icked. Now the ministers of the Lorde are as Iudges to the wicked, for that Iesus Christ condēneth thē by the iudgement pro­nounced vnto them by the mouth & ministe­rie of his seruantes. And therfore it is writtē of Ezechiel, [...]zech 22. that the lorde sent hym as iudge of y ^e people, [...]on. 16. whose Prophet he was. And Ie­sus Christ said: that he would sende the holie spirit to his Apostles, whiche should reproue the worlde of sinne, as a iudge whiche condē ­neth him, by the preaching of the gospell an­noūced by the Ministers of thesame. For the maner of speche that Iesus Christe vseth in this place, importeth so muche. And this cau­seth the wicked to murmure against the Mi­nisters of the lorde (as these wicked spirites) [Page] when thei are constrained to se them & heare thē. The wicked will neuer finde tyme to heare the condemna­tion. Furthermore, the wicked are herein like to those wicked sprites, whiche would alwa­yes prolong the time, as the giltte which are condemned to the gallowes. For, thei thinke it won tyme, if thei maie delaie it so, that thei be not constrained to come to accōpt. These deuills denied not, The reasons of those tha [...] are conuin­ced by the word of God▪ but that thei had well de­serued to be driuen out, and sent to the bottō ­lesse pitte, because thei could not deny it: but thei feared least thei should be sent thether before that tyme. For the wicked would neuer willyngly appere before the Iudge, & there­fore can neuer finde meete tyme to come to iudgement. There are also many, whose cō ­sciences beare thē witnesse, that that whiche the true Ministers of the Gospell preache is trothe: & that whiche thei demaūde touching the reformation of the Gospell is very reaso­nable. At the least thei can not gainsaie it by the worde of God, how muche soeuer thei ca­lominate againste it. And because thei haue nothyng els to saie, thei complaine that the ministers are too earnest and too sharpe, and that the people will not so be won. Thei saie that thei must go softly to woorke, & by little and little tary a time. But in the meane time thei consider not, that thei and the Ministers [Page] maie die the whilest▪ and that it is requisite y ^• euery man make hymself ready in tyme, to giue accompt to the high Iudge, who graū ­teth no dela [...]e whē y ^• houre is come. Thei cō ­sider not likewise, [...] with [...] profite is [...]ungerous. y ^• some hath bin taried for more then x. or xv. yere, some other more then xx. or xxx. yeres: & yet thei are so far frō amē ­dement, that thei are daiely worse and worse.

Then wee maie well saie by them, that thei are the worse for the keepyng.

Thei waxe so euill, that after long looking for, thei are lesse ready to doe good, then euer thei were. Thei so well determine to amende, that when thei feele theimselues earnestly pressed, not onely in worde, but also in deede, and that thei will tary no lōger, but that y ^e seruantes of God will at length know if God ought to bee heard in his Churche, or men, and if these Dogs, Hoggs, Foxes, and Wolues, whiche are in the Churche, ought alwaies to bee suffered: then declare thei thēselues to be very Hogs, Dogs, Wolues and Foxes. And while we let the time passe, thei thei counterfect the shepe▪ But when we go aboute by true markes▪ to knowe whether thei be sheepe or no, thei can not awaie with this triall: Then shewe thei what thei cā do. Thei are not contented to tread vnder foote [Page] the pearles, Dogges and swine turne against the seruauntes of God. whiche are cast before them, and the holy thynges, whiche are giuen them, as thei ha [...]e doen of long tyme, but thei tourne against the seruauntes of God (whiche offer them vnto them) to bite and tread thē in pee­ces, Matth. 7. as Iesus Christ saieth that Doggs and Hoggs will doe, to those (whiche against his commaundemente, to caste the Pearles and precious stones of his Gospell, before them.

It maie be, The punish­ment of God, for too long bearyng with abuse. that the Ministers doe well deserue suche reward. For, seeyng that Iesus Christ hath forbidden them, so to pro­phane and soile his holie thynges, why haue thei so long doen it, against the commaunde­ment of Iesus Christe. The reproche of the Papists for pollutyng the sacramēts in reformed Churches. For in this case (mee semeth) there is muche more disorder emōg you that brag of the reformation of the Gos­pell, then emong vs whom you cal Papists. For you make no difference betwene Dogs Hogs and shepe, and principally in the admi­nistration of your Sacraments. We do not so in our churches, whiche you call Popishe. For whatsoeuer our curates and shepherdes be, yet thei will knowe their sheepe: and will not receiue any (specially to y ^• supper, which thei celebrate) without thei first knowe what faith or religion thei be of. But your pastors and Ministers are constrained to receiue in­differently, [Page] all suche as shal present themsel­ues to your supper. Your reformation is so well established, that if a common whore, a theefe, a robber, or a Iewe, a Turke, come to you, your Minister dare not refuse hym, ex­cept he will indanger hymself to be deposed frō the Ministerie, at the leaste. Thinke you, that offendeth vs not greatly? And that it letteth not many men of good conscience from yelding to your sect? For though you blame our forme of religiō, yet we thinke, if we do not better then you, wee can not lightly doe worse. For at the least we obserue our Cere­monies, and that forme of discipline, whiche we haue in our churches, better then you ob­serue those, which you ought to obserue, if ye had receiued y ^e Gospell, as you brag. Seyng then that your Ministers haue so long tyme giuen to hogs & dogs, those thynges whiche you esteme to be moste precious and holie, is it not good reason, that those hogs and dogs should shew themselues to be suche, & should punishe the dishonour, whiche thei shewed to God and his worde, and his holy Sacramēt is. For you bragge to haue all these thinges.

I agree, that thei haue lingered therein too long: and that the punishment whereof thou speakest, is very iust. And it [Page] cannot be otherwise, seing that Iesus Christ hath foreshewed it. For in admonishyng his Apostles not to giue holy thynges to dogs, nor to cast pearles among Swine, Math. 7. least thei treade them vnder foote, and teare them in peeces whiche offer them: He gaue thē war­nyng hereby, prophesiyng and threatnyng what should happen vnto them, if thei failed herein. And although our Ministers be faul­tie herein, Thei that wil deferre the tyme with God. in that thei haue deferred the time to long, some for feare of displeasure, & some for losing of that thei haue, watching for bet­ter opportunitie, yet are thei burthened by diuers, to be to hasty, to wilfull, and to rashe. And this is the cause, that suche alwaies de­ferre the tyme so long.

Therefore I feare mee thei shall sweetly abye for it one daie, & shall then per­ceiue what sheepe thei haue in their flocke.

Seyng that God hath spoken it, we neede not to dispute whether it shall come to passe or no. Or whether we ought to deferre the tyme so long or no. Wee neede to deter­mine no more, or take any other councell in it. Thei that dooe otherwise declare one of these two: either that thei wil controll God, as if that whiche he hath ordeined were not well enough, and that rule which he hath gi­uen [Page] to his Church were not sufficient: or els shewe themselues rebellious against him, in not obeyng him. And therfore we ought not to appoint or limit any time, to doe y ^t whiche he hath commaunded. For if we mynde to o­bey hym, wee ought not to delaie any tyme, seyng wee knowe his will. The hypocri­sie of those whiche seeke excuses. And therefore I iudge them lesse hipocrites which saie plain­ly. Lett vs cast of this yoke wherewith thei would yoke vs, Psalm. 2. and let vs breake this bande wherwith thei would binde vs, and let vs do as we were wont: then thei whiche make de­lay, and excuse them selues with the tyme. For thei dare not speake so openly as the o­ther doe, nor vtter their mynde, because thei are somewhat more shamefast and hipocrites then the other. But whilest thei thus deferre the tyme, thei and their ministers maie dye: and then must thei bothe appeare before the iudgement seate of God, who will neither allowe appellation or delaie.

I am sure if Iesus Christ should haue demaunded of the Deuills which com­plained of hym, what tyme thei would haue hym graunt them, thei would neuer haue founde conuenient tyme, but would as well haue complained on hym a thousand yeares after, as then: Likewise, if God should giue [Page] vs our choice what tyme we should obey his commaundementes, and doe as he requireth vs, we would be as hard to please as thei.

Therefore he demaundeth not our aduise, neither putteth it to our choice, but commaundeth: The obediēce whiche we owe to God. and when he commaundeth we ought to obeye. And if we obeye not, nor cease from wickednesse, he hath as great po­wer to driue vs awaie, to cause vs to do what so euer pleaseth hym, whether we will or no, as he had to driue out the wicked Spirites, whiche he cast out whether thei would or no, notwithstandyng their resistance, complain­tes, and requestes. Though we resist & seeke neuer so many waies to auoyd it, yet will he be maister. Yet we haue one poinct more to consider in the request of these Deuilles. That is: that thei desire to remaine still in the Countrey, that thei might vexe other, if thei might no more vexe those poore persons out of whom thei were cast.

Thei did shewe by that experience, when thei entered into the Swine whiche fedde there by: for if thei might haue doen worse, thei would not haue spared. Ther are many men which doe the like, Desire to doe mischiefe. when thei can not hinder or let the worde of GOD in one place, thei goe to an other: For thei can no [Page] more be without doyng mischiefe, then these Deuilles. Wherefore thei bryng all out of order wheresoeuer thei come, and carrie this pestilence with them wheresoeuer thei goe.

I knowe many suche Deuilles.

And knowest thou none like to thē of Genezareth?

Why askest thou that question?

Thou knowest that after our Sa­uiour Christ had cast out these Deuilles that wee talke of, and that thei had drouned the Swine into whiche thei entered, the Gene­zarians were greeued with the losse of their Swine, The Geneza­rian [...]. and that suche thinges happened in their Countrey: and therefore when thei vn­derstoode what Christ had doen to these pos­sessed, thei met him and praied him to depart their Countrey.

Me thinkes thei were muche ouer­seene therein: for seing thei vnderstood of the great power of Christ, and what good he had doen (not onely in these two possessed, but al­so to all the Countrey, whiche thei keepe in greate subiection and feare) thei had iuster occasion to beseche hym, yea, and with great sute to intreate him to tary emongest them, then to praie hym to depart. For what feare and horror was all the Countrey in, hauyng [Page] these twoo so daungerous, furious, and out­ragious possessed?

Thei shewed thē selues herein not onely ouerseen, but wholy madd, and hereby shewe, that thei needed not to bee so greeued with the losse of their Swine, for that the de­clared themselues to be very swine, yea, vile and detestable Swine: For thei did set more by earth then by heauē: thei estemed Swine better then their own soules. For, thei might well thinke what goodnesse was to be found at Christes handes in recompence of them, seyng he had suche power ouer the deuil him self. But seyng thei were suche filthy swine themselues, Christ would shewe by the wor­kyng of these Deuilles in the swine, how he could vse suche swine as y ^• Genezariās were and all suche other as wer giuē ouer by gods iust iudgements, according to their desertes.

Because thei were verie swine thē selues, peraduenture thei were afraied, least he would likewise haue vsed them so.

But to driue awaie Christe, The true meane to driue awaie the Deuill. who hath power to driue awaie deuills, is not the waie to flie frō the deuill, but to receiue hym. Wherefore the best waie to driue him awaie is to become the Sheepe of Iesus Christe, who is come to transforme Dogges, Hog­ges, [Page] and Wolues into shepe and Lābes, Esa. 11. 2 [...]. and to bee their shepeheard, as Esaie prophesied.

Thou diddest aske mee now, if I knewe any that were like these Genezariās, I praie thee tell me thy self, who be thei that be like them.

Although the Genezarians were greeued for the losse of their swine, yet sainct Luke teacheth an other poincte, Luke. 8. that caused them to doe, as thei did to Christe.

What saieth he?

Thei that were in great terror and feare, seyng Christe doe as he did. For, if thei had been onelymoued w ^t the losse, thei would skante haue intreated hym, Feare of the power of god without taste of the good­nesse thereof. to departe their Countrey, but would rather haue vsed com­maundementes, threatnynges, yea, and per­aduenture haue laied handes on hym (if God would haue permitted.) But thei were asto­nied at the power and diuine vertue, whiche Iesus Christe shewed before their eyes in that coūtrey, by so merueilous a worke: and therefore thei flattered hym, rather for feare, then loue. And where these desired hym to departe their Countrey, Matth. 8. the poore possessed, whom he had healed, Marke. 5. offer to followe hym as his disciples, Luke. 8. whether so euer he goe.

Therby thei shewe, y ^t Iesus Christ [Page] hath so deliuered them, frō the power of the Deuill, that thei are lesse possessed, then the other of the countrey. For, if the Deuill had not had greate power of the Genezarians, thei would rather haue yeelded to Iesus Christ, and followed hym as Disciples, then to haue driuen hym out of their Countrey.

That is certaine. For it had been better for them, to haue departed their coun­trey themselues, yea, to haue left wiues and Children, then euer to haue suffered Iesus Christ to depart from them. And therefore if we well consider the worke of Iesus Christ, as well in the possessed whiche he healed, as in the Genezarians, we maie by them learne to knowe the diffrence, that is betwene those that effectually taste of the grace of the Gos­pell, and suche as haue not tasted thereof as thei ought. These poore possessed tasted ther­of: Diuers know­ledge of the Gospell. and therefore thei estemed nothyng in the worlde so muche as Iesus Christ, but offered themselues to followe hym, whatsoeuer did happen. Contrariwise the Genezarians ta­sted not of this grace, but had onely a know­ledge of the diuine power, whiche thei sawe in Iesus Christe, whiche knowledge made theim to feare hym, but taught theim not to loue hym, and followe hym, thereby to bee [Page] made partakers of greater goodes, without cōparison then that was, which thei thought he had spoiled them. The moste part of men are thus disposed to Godward: Feare of God without any loue towards hym. because thei knowe the power he hath to punish, thei fear hym. This feare causeth them to honour and worship hym, but not hartely: thei feare hym as wicked subiectes feare their Prince, whō thei honour and reuerence against their wil­les, for feare of his power: And therefore all the honour and seruice, that thei doe to hym, is but onely fained. So the greatest parte of men feare and honor God, but yet thei wishe hym so farre from theim, that thei might ne­uer heare speake of hym, or haue to doe with hym. All thei that haue not tasted the swete­nesse of the goodnesse of GOD, are lead by suche Spirite and affection towardes hym. And this is the cause, that so fewe receiueth the Gospell as thei might. For, seeyng it is hard, The cause that letteth many from followyng the Gospell. yea, & impossible to followe it, but that it wil bring some incommoditie, bothe to the bodie and goodes, of those that faithfully fol­lowe it, it seemeth to bryng alwaies euill lucke followeth it.

Yet there is no man but will brag and saie, that he followeth the Gospell.

That is true, but the most parte [Page] would haue suche a Christe as the Geneza­rians desired to haue: that is, that thei might not lose their Swine by hym: thei would al­so haue suche a Gospell.

There are some that are not onely contented that the Gospell cost them no­thyng, Suche swin [...] as bothe re­iect Christ themselues and cause o [...]ther to doe the like. but thei would gaine and be enriched vnder colour of the same.

I praie thee Tobie shew me what is the cause that Popes, Cardinalls, Bishops, Priestes, and Monkes resist the Gospell so stoutly, and persecute it so cruelly?

Thei will not tel thee that: for thei saie, it is thei that maintaine the Gospell, and those whō thei persecute are Heretickes.

And what causeth the doctrine of the Gospell to bee heresie to them? None o­ther thyng, but that thei feare if it should bee receiued & practised as it ought to be amon­gest Christians, thei should be driuen out of their stoyes and stalles, wherein thei are fed as fat as Millers Swine: for thei had rather be swine to Sathan and Antichrist to be fat­ly fed in their Stoyes as thei are, then to be sheepe of the flock of Iesus Christ, or labou­ryng Oxen in the haruest of the Lord. Those likewise whiche are of alliaunce to them, ei­ther by parentage, consanguinitie, or affini­ty, [Page] or by any other meane, and specially those whiche serue them, and liue of their deceite, set more by these fatt Swine, then by Iesus Christ the true sheapheards of their soules. For these Swine fatten the porredge with their fatt, or at the least vnfattē them not, but vnfatten inough of others, to fatten their pa­rentes, affines, freendes, and other maintai­ners of their Mother holy Churche, whiche Mother haue fed them so fat. Wherefore, it is no maruaile though thei be lothe to leaue her, or to be weaned frō suche breasts. There is an other sorte, whiche though thei receiue no profite of suche swine, yea, and knowe the trothe of the Gospell: neuerthelesse, thei had rather be ridd of Iesus Christ, and driue him out of their Countrey, then thei would driue out suche swine, because thei feare least such chaunge should trouble them, and least thei should haue some hinderance touching their bodies or temporall goods. To be shorte: we see daiely if there bee any talke of the kyng­dome of Christe, the like that happened to Herode and those of Ierusalem, when Iesus Christ was borne.

Why? what happened to them.

Sainct Mathew saieth: [...]ath. 2. that when by meane of the wise men whiche came to [Page] worshippe Christ, newes came to Ierusalem that the Kyng of the Iewes was borne, not only Herode, but al the Cities of Ierusalem was troubled with hym.

It is no meruaile though the Ty­raūt Herode was troubled, for he feared the losse of his kyngdome, whiche by right belō ­ged not to hym. Mē troub at the b [...] of Iesus Christ. But what needed thei of Ie­rusalem to bee troubled with suche newes? Had thei not greater occasion to reioyce? For besides that Messias was promised to them, at whose handes thei looked for full & perfect restoryng of all thynges: it is to bee doubted, but thei had rather haue a Kyng of their owne Countrey and blood, then such a straunger and Tyraunt as Herode was.

Thou saiest troth, and therefore the faithfull whiche were the true Israelites a­mong those people, reioyced very much whē thei heard of the birth of Iesus Christ, their Kyng, their sauiour and redeemer.

Wee haue good witnesse thereof, and namely in the Sheepheards to whom it was first shewed, and after in Simeon, which so longed to see that great goodnesse of God whiche he sawe. Luke. [...].

The other whiche were carnall and worldly menne, and not true Israelites, but [Page] onely in name, denied that Herode would not so easily leaue his kyngdom, and that the Romanes would not suffer any other prince to raigne in Iuda, but themselues, and those appoincted by them. Whereby thei thought that there must needes be greate chaunge in Iurie: and this chaunge could not bee with­out great warres & troubles: whiche should greatly trouble the common state, and so be­come hinderaunce vnto theim. And because thei would liue in quietnesse, thei had rather remaine in the state wherein thei were, (tho it were miserable) then fall into those trou­bles, whiche thei thought would be greater. For, thei were already vsed to this yoke, and therfore thei thought it not so heauie, as thei did at the first, before thei were vsed to it.

Mee thinkes neither Herode nor the Iewes, [...]e vaine [...]re that ty­ [...]nts haue, [...] the Go­ [...]ll should [...]der their [...]gdome. neded to feare that, seyng Christ came not to raigne after the maner of world­ly kynges, as he hymself witnesseth. There­fore neither Herode, nor the Romanes neded to feare, that he should take awaie their pos­session, [...]th. 18. neither the Iewes, [...]. 6. 18. that he should trouble their Countrey, in takyng of their Kyngdome.

That is verie true: But the state was then as we se it now, whē Iesus Christ [Page] sheweth hym self to the worlde, by the Prea­chyng of the Gospell. For, why doe tyraun­tes persecute it? But because thei feare (like Herode) leaste it should hinder their Kyng­dome? And how many are there, that would be glad to be lightened, of the Romishe An­tichrist yoke, Worldly quietnesse, preferred before the quietnesse o [...] the consciēc [...] & haue greater libertie, whiche notwithstandyng had rather beare it, then by suffryng neuer so little trouble, to bee de­liuered by meanes of the Gospell: Thereby we may well perceiue, what care suche haue of their soules or Saluation. None but the true children of God esteeme Iesus Christe, and his Gospell, better then their Swine: and therefore, are alwaies ready to forsake all, rather then Iesus Christe, to abide all daungers, rather then suffer hym to departe from them: yea, to keepe hym with them, as muche as thei can with all their might, and to followe hym whether soeuer he goe, for thei esteeme the libertie of their conscience more, then all the Kyngdomes or Lordships of the worlde.

Are there not some emōg you, that bragge of the reformatiō of the Gospell, that are like those that thou talkest of?

There are more thē I would wish. For there are many, that although thei se an [Page] vnspeakeable confusion in the Churche of God, [...]ei that re [...] the disci­ [...]ne of the [...]urche to [...]oyd trou­ [...]. and in all estates: yet thei will heare of no better reformation, then that whiche thei haue, because their bodies are in quiete and rest. Wherefore, thei feare if any should goe aboute, to establishe better order, (to th'ende that God bee not dishonoured as he is, and the people better instructed and ordered) lest some troubles might arise, whiche should trouble that worldly quietnesse, wherin thei would liue. And therefore, thei had rather roote in the mire, and suffer other to roote with thē, then to haue those troubles whiche thei so sore feare. Wherein thei are greatly deceiued: for the meane to liue in quiet, is not to caste of the yoke of Iesus Christe, [...]he yoke of [...]hrist and [...]e yoke of [...]athan. but to embrace it: and thei must necessarily bear the yoke of Sathan, whiche will not beare Christes yoke. [...]ath. 11. Now it is easie to Iudge, whiche of the twoo is lighter and easier to be borne, and which bringeth greater quiet­nesse (by all meanes) vnto man. For as Ie­sus Christ witnesseth that his yoke is light, pleasaunt, and amiable, so he promiseth qui­etnesse to the soules and consciences of those whiche beare it, and submitte themselues to hym and his Discipline, and followe him as their Maister.

[Page]

I doubt not but these of whom thou speakest, doe proue to their coste, that whiche thou saiest: and thinkest by that meane, to a­uoide a light and easie paine, are deceiued, finde for one paine an hundreth.

If suche men knewe what it were, to serue God from the bottome of their hart, thei would not thinke or trouble: for there is no paine in seruyng God, but onely in ser­uyng the Deuill. For none serue GOD as thei ought, but serue hym with good harte: and to serue with good harte, is so farre frō beyng paine, that contrariwise, it is a singu­lar pleasure to vs: and as for those that serue the Deuill, although thei take pleasure in e­uill doyng (for that it is more naturall to thē then to doe well) yet thei serue hym as bonde and slaues, and the pleasures that thei haue in seruyng hym, are like the pleasures of the sicke. Who (contrary to the councell of the Phisition) eate and drinke that, whiche deli­teth their phantasie, and afterwarde become sicker thereby.

Wee haue alreadie spoken hereto­fore of those, whiche are contented to haue the Gospell and Religion, onely in outward shewe. Me thinkes wee maie well ioyne thē with these, of whiche wee now talke.

[Page]

Wee maie well so doe.

Seyng wee haue sufficiently and largely talked, of the old and newe Geneza­rians; tell vs if thou haue any more to saie, touching the possessed, of whom thou madest mention before.

I haue muche more to saie: but we will leaue of that till an other tyme.

he had heard him more at large, hee was a greate deale the rather desirous to deliuer him, then euer he was before.

If he had continued stil in that mind, it had byn much better for him.

That is true indeede. But be­cause there was no true feare of GOD in him, neither yet had taken deep & good roo­ting in his hart, it forthwith vanished cleane away, when he was pressed to the contrary, and neuer straue to withstand the crueltye of the Iewes. And yet hee shewed him­self to beare more reuerence vnto the name of GOD, then a great many of those, who would at this daye, be taken not on­ly for Christians, but also for the very staies and pillers of the fayth. For, although they know well inough, that the causes which come before them, concerne the glo­ry of GOD, and his Churche, yet haue they lesse care to giue iudgement and con­demne them, without further enquiring, what were the best way for thē to take, ma­king lighter account of giuing iudgement on them, then of the least cause in y ^• worlde, whether it were of a money matter, or of a­ny other worldly thing whatsoeuer.

[Page]

If there were in them but that feare which they ought to haue, in condem­ning the cause of God, vnder the name and tytle of heresie, mee thinketh they shoulde therein, bee more circumspect and discreete. And for mine owne part, as igno­raunt & vnlearned as I am, yet I euer ab­horred these fire tormentors, who so little esteemed of the liues of men, especially in such a cause.

Truely, if thy firste reason which thou hast alleadged would not serue them, mee thinketh that the second which thou euen nowe diddest touche, might right well suffyce, for them to cast, I will not say, a litle water into their Wyne, but into their fires. For to take away the liues of menne, is no small matter in the sight of the Lorde. But the offence is a great deale more haynous, when as menne for Gods cause, shall take life away from suche, as shoulde rather bee preserued, and suche also as shoulde bee in moste estimation, with Princes and Magi­strates.

Thus then thou seest what an inconue­nience pryde bringeth with it, to those that [Page] proude and arrogant: For, seeing they pre­sume so muche of them selues as that they will not once vouchsafe to entertayne the seruauntes of God, and to bee taught by them, as they had neede, it is impossible for them to vnderstande the trueth, because they will at no hande vnderstande it. And contrariwise, Iesus Christ is schoolemaister to the humble, and not to the proude. as Iesus Christe shew­ed him selfe to bee the Teacher and May­ster of the humble and meeke, euen so reiecteth he out of his Schoole, all highe mynded, proude, and presumptuous per­sons. And therefore hee gaue thankes to God his Father, in that he had reuealed his will and trueth vnto the poore in spirite, Math. 11. and hidde it from the mighty and great men of the worlde. Isaiah. 66. For, there are none but the poore and meeke in spirite which are capa­ble thereof.

And therefore, the Lorde sayeth by the Prophete Isaiah, Whom will I regarde, but onelie the afflicted, and contrite in hearte and mynde, and him, who trem­bleth at my woordes? [...]. Saynt Paule also telleth the Corinthians, That the Lorde hath not called manye wise, stronge, riche, and honourable menne of the [Page] worlde: But the moste feeble, moste vyle, and moste contemptible. It is also written, 1. Pet. 5. That GOD resisteth the proude, and giueth grace to the hum­ble. And therefore Saynt Paule, dili­gentlye admonisheth all Christians not to esteeme, Rom. 12. nor presume ouer muche of them selues. Philip. 2.

True it is indeede, that humility and honour, seldome or neuer agree quietly together.

That is most true. For, wher­as humilitie is not, there cannot be a tea­cheable, and well disposed hearte to re­ceiue doctrine and discipline: Which thing Saynt Augustine confesseth to haue found in him selfe by experience, S. Aug. in his 3. Booke 5. Chap. of Con­fess. saying in this manner. I then determined to applye my mynde to the study of the holy Scriptures, that I might see what they were. And beholde, The confession of S. Aug. as concerning the pride, whiche hindred him frō profiting in th [...] holy scriptures. I saw a thinge that was neuer knowne to the proude, nor opened to chil­dren, but was lowly in his goyng, and ve­rie high in his arryning, & whiche brought greate profite, and hidden secretes. And as for my selfe, I was euen suche a one, [Page] as that I was not able to make anye en­traunce into it, or yet stoupe so lowe, as once to be able to put my head into y ^e intres therof. For I was not then of the opynion whereof I now speake, when I looked vp­pon this peece of Scripture, but thought it vnworthy to be compared to Tullies dig­nitie. For, my greate pryde coulde no [...] away with the basenesse thereof, and ther­fore it fled from mee: Neyther was my wytte so sharpe, as that it was once able to pearse into it, and yet it was suche, as grewe vp amongest the basest and mea­nest. Howebeeit, I might haue vouchsa­fed to haue beene lowlie. And because I was highe mynded, I thought my selfe to be a great Clearke. Heere wee see howe Saynte Augustine confesseth, that whiles he flattered himselfe, and esteemed so much of his owne knowledge, and of the pride of his mynde, as that he continually disdayned and contemned the holy Scriptures. And although hee had a mynde oftentimes to giue him selfe to the studie of them, it was so farre of that he found any taste or sauour in them, as that hee founde▪ lesse sauour in them at that time, then he did at the firste. [Page] For, hee thought them to bee nothing in respecte of the eloquence, and knowledge which hee founde in the Bookes of Tullie and of the rest of the heathen Philosophers. But, after that this his pryde was come downe and abased, and the opinion whiche he had of him selfe and of his knowledge, hee was of an opinion, cleane contrarye to his first: And then, hee right well per­ceyued, all humane eloquence, and Phy­losophie, to be no better then bladders stuft full of wind, and of no substance in respect of the holye Scriptures: although to the outwarde apparaunce they made a farre gallanter muster and shewe. And therfore, whiles the eyes of Saynt Augustines vn­derstanding were blyndfolded with y ^e false opinion which he had of him selfe, he had the more hoodwinked them with this pompe & false apparaunce.

There are at this day, a greate many in the worlde, There are ma­nye, that will counterfeit S. Augustines pride, but they will not follow his humilitie. who are in the selfe and same predicament, that Saynt Augu­stine was in, at that time. But I know not, whether GOD will giue them that grace, which he gaue vnto him, to let them [Page] vnderstande their pride, that thereby they might be humbled, and for the false opinion which they haue of their eloquence, know­ledge and wisedome, to acknowledge them selues to be suche fooles, and blockeheaded beastes as indeede they are, to the end they might bee made apte and Teacheable Schollers in the Schoole of the woorde of God. For, there are such a number of Po­eticall braynes, & so learned in the tongues and in humayne Philosophy: that they doe not onely make smal accompt of the books of the holy Scriptures, in comparison of their Heathenishe volumes: as that, which is of all other the moste vyle, they esteeme of them no better, then of the Dreames of olde doatyng fooles, and of doating olde wyues tales. And as for mine own part, let them haue as great knowledge as they will, vntill they burst with all, I wil esteem of thē no whit y ^• more, if they be not honest men, and haue the feare of God before their eyes.

Thou touchest now a disease, which at this day raygneth more then euer it did, yea, and that amongst such as beare [Page] the name of Christians, which is the cause that we haue so many Libertine Atheistes, Libertine A­theists. who scorne and laughe at all Religions. And although they are not in trueth, setled in any Religion, yet forsooth they woulde not hee thought to be vtterly voyde of Re­ligion. And therefore, because they are of no religion, they are neuerthelesse of all Religions, in what Countries soeuer they come vnto. For, they shoote at none other marke, but temporizing, or seruing of times, with euery man, a Papist amongst Papistes, an Epicure with Epicures, an Atheist, with Atheistes, and to be shorte, a Diuel amongst Diuels, for they wil not be disquieted eyther in body or mynd neyther yet hazarde eyther bodye or goodes. And therefore, they will not greatly frame them selues neyther after Iesus Christe, nor af­ter the Pope, neyther after the Gospell, nor after the Masse, nor yet after any con­trouersie that is at this day for Religion a­mōgst Christians, without perhaps some of them sustaine some particular losse therby. For, if eyther gayne, or losse fall out vnto them on eyther side, they will counterfayte zeale in that Religion whiche they thinke [Page] will bee moste for their profite, and whiche they suppose will beste agree with that, which they desire to haue heere in this life, as wee haue a manifest example, chiefly, in the Prelates and Beneficed men of the Popishe Churche. For, if they did be­leeue that there were a GOD in heauen, and anye true religion, whereby their life and conuersation ought to bee gouerned, and that they shoulde render an accounte thereof in the day of Iudgement, they woulde surely, be other maner of men, then in deede they are. Howebeit, they right well shew, as wel by their doctrine, as also by their life and conuersation, that they haue as much mynde of God, as haue bruite beastes, and doe as muche esteeme of the immortality of their soules, as of the soules of their horses and moyles. And therfore, all the zeale which they haue to their Reli­gion, proceedeth not from any loue whiche they beare thereunto, but onelye to the ho­nours, and greate wealth whiche commeth vnto them thereby. And therefore, when they see them selues in danger to loose thē, they eyther become manifest blacke diuels, and beginne openlye to persecute, or if [Page] they haue anye knowledge and eloquence, they straight way, Libertine Ba­laamites. playe the iollye Balaa­mites. For they commend themselues vn­to Antichrist to resist the trueth of God, and mainteyne his false doctrine, against their owne consciences: For, they them­selues laugh him to scorne in their heartes, and doe no more beleeue him, then those a­gainst whom they oppose them selues. But I feare mee, I haue doone them greate wrong to compare them vnto Balaam, be­cause they haue not so muche fayth vnto the true Religion, as Balaam hadde vn­to the Religion of the auncient Churche of GOD, neyther haue they so greate a regarde to God, as he had. But they are as like him in all other poyntes, as like may bee, as in desire of honours, and worldly possessions. And therfore although they are in part, black Diuels, yet are they in nature, more like vnto white and Famili­ar Diuels, where, the rest shew them selues to bee altogether blacke Diuelles.

Howebeit, whatsoeuer vizers they put on, they are alwayes in trueth, very Liber­tine Atheistes, notwithstandyng, that they seeme outwardely the Followers of Po­pishe [Page] Religion. And there are others al­so, who are almost like them, euen of those which follow the Gospel, if they knew they might any way gayne thereby. But the most of that sort, serue in Kings and Prin­ces Courtes. Libertine Courtiers. For, if Kinges and Princes fauour the Gospell, then they know, that if they fauour it as he doeth, that they shal come to greater dignity, or at least, be the better and more firmely establyshed in that degree and honour wherein they stand, for, as they can court it well, so will they also be the first that shall make court to the Go­spell, and will bee come fayre whyte, and familiar Diuels, amongst the very angels. But if a man shoulde iudge them by theyr woorkes, fruites, and life, what Gospell it is that they professe, it woulde be soone iudged that they are very Libertine Athe­istes. For, a man shall neuer finde any re­formation of life in them, which is the chief cause of the preaching of the Gospell, and the principal marke to be marked and kno­wen by, in those who haue receiued the true faith, in the true feare of GOD, and in a good conscience. And so by that meane, all their Gospel wilbe come a thing where [Page] with to scorne the Pope, his Priests, Fri­ars, and the rest of his shorne Balaa­mites, and all the abuses of the Popishe Churche, and to make sporte and plea­sauntly talke of them, especially in the com­panies of Ladies and Gentlewomen. And if the Gospel wil giue them any such liber­tye, whereby they may abuse it, into carnal lybertie, they will be sure to laye fast holde thereon: and not sticke to saye, that they are not like vnto those superstitious hypo­criticall Papistes, whom they laugh to scorne.

Howbeyt, further they will not, but as for the rest of their life, it shalbe as dissolute, as the most dissolute Papistes, from whom they differ in nothing but in this, that they haue put on a vizar of the Gospel, that they might therewith the better couer theyr Atheisme.

Thou hast hitherto spoken of Libertine Atheistes, who dissemble their Atheisme, vnder the colour of hauinge some Religion in them, so farre foorth as it tendeth either to their commodity or discō ­modity. But there are some others, who be cause they cānot find any such occasiō, becō [Page] as it were newters, Libertine new­ters. beeing of neyther side, as thou hast oftentimes sayde. And the chiefe men whiche marche vnder this En­signe, and that are of this Bande, are they which are puffed vp with eloquence, & knowledge, and are dronken in their own wit and vnderstanding: As Saynt Augu­stine confessed him selfe to bee, before suche tyme as GOD had touched his heart with his holye spirite, whiche is the spy­rite of humilitie. But, although Saynt Augustine presumed thus of him selfe, by reason he was of so fine and quicke witted a spirite, and of so verie a sharpe vnderstan­ding, and excellent knowledge in humani­tie, as anye man that euer liued in his time and age: yet was there alwayes in him, some good seed of religiō. But because hee was an heathen man borne, and there­fore had not from his youth beene brought vp in the woorde of God: but onely in hu­manitie and Paganisme, and in the Reli­gion wherein he was borne, hee could not rightly iudge of the true Religion, whiche he knewe not. And the opinion whiche hee had of himselfe, did so hinder him, as that he could not search after it, as he ought to haue [Page] done. And after that diuers, but especiallye his mother Monica, who was a widdowe, and became a Christian before him, a very good woman, and one that feared GOD, had exhorted and solycited him, to search af­ter the holy Scriptures: those their exhor­tations stirred him vp to the reading of the Bible. Howbeit, hee read it not so reue­rently as he should haue done, but rather for fashions sake, by reason he came not ap­poynted with that humilytie and modestie, which afterward hee knew was meete for the disciples of the holy Ghost to come. But when God had rebated this his pride, with the spirite of modestie and humilitie, then found he that in it, which before hee knew not how to finde in it: And by that meane, he was somuch the more humbled. Howbeit, these glorious arrogant men, of whome we now speake, who thus glory of their knowledge, and skill, are euen the ve­rye scorners and contemners of God: for they neuer shew, that euer they had the true feare of God before their eyes, nor yet any good seede of religion in them. For, there is a great many of them, who haue manife­sted them selues greater Atheists, after they [Page] had once gotten some knowledge of the go­spell, then euer they had before, and since y ^• time, haue euer lesse reuerenced the worde of God. For, the knowledge which they re­ceyued by the entertayning of the Gospell, serued them to none other vse, but to disco­uer the Idolatries, superstitions, and abu­ses, which are in the popish Church, that they might laugh at them.

And euer sithence that time, they are growen euen vnto this, that they are almost at the like poynt with the doctrine of Chri­stian religion. For, as S. Paul said, They iudge thereof, 1. Cor. 1. as the Grecians and wise men of the world, iudged of Iesus Christe, & of his Gospel: who thought the preaching thereof to be foolishnesse, because they were carnall men, and puffed vp with an opiny­on of their owne wisdomes.

And because the Grecians, were alwaies more accounted of then any of the reste of the Nations, by reason of their sharpenesse of witte, and of the knowledge which they had in the artes, in Philosophy, and in all o­ther Letters of humanitie, S. Paule na­meth them specially, although hee compre­hendeth vnder this name, all the rest of the [Page] heathen, as well appeareth by that, that he opposeth them to the Iewes, and sepera­teth them also from the Christians, vnto whome, as hee him selfe witnesseth, Iesus Christ is the true wisdome, vertue, and po­wer of God.

Nowe, if these Libertine Epicures and Atheistes, had beene heathen borne, as S. Augustine was, or, if they had as much re­ligion in them, being Christians borne, as hee had in his Paganisme, they shoulde neuer haue shewed them selues, to haue beene so monstrous beastes, as in deed they are. But although in name, they are Christians born, they are to be accounted of, as if they had beene borne and bredde a­mongst Infidelles and Paganes, yea euen amongst the Epicures, out of whose books they haue sucked and droonke, this prophan spirite of Athiesme, who thus caryeth thē away.

For, they haue yet lesse Religion in them, then euer had any of the heathen, who not onely did not approue their doctrine, but which is more, manifestly, both by word and wrytinge condemned it, yea, and often­times executed thē by publick iustice name­ly, [Page] Athens. For, when God giueth vs ouer so farre, hee then by his iust iudgement bru­tisheth vs in the cause of religion. What it is to contēne prayer. And therefore, that we shall not neede any more to pray vnto him, to beseech him, enlighten vs with his holy spirite, in the knowledge of his holy word.

But, ouer and besides, that Dauid, and S. Peter, Psal. 19. 119. calleth the holy Ghost, the word of the Lorde, 2. Pet. 1. a candle and lanterne which lightneth a darke place, Iohn. 16. and doth enlighten the simple, Psal. 16. yet there is one thing more in it, which the Lord hath promised, 1 Psal. 50. that he will heare as manye as shall call vppon him in trueth, Mat. 7. 18. be neere them, and graunt them his holy spirit.

This then is the effect of thy conclusion, that proud men, and such as call not vpon the Lord as they ought, for their instruction in the knowledge of his holye will, The iudgment of God against the contempt and hating of his word. haue no great good lyking to serue him accordingly. And because they haue no such loue and lyking: but contrariwise will liue as pleaseth them, God, in his iust iudgement giueth them ouer into a repro­bate sence, and leaueth them as a spoyle vn­to seducers, and false teachers. Wherefore, [Page] they alwayes receyue and allowe rather falshood and errour, then the trueth of the Lord.

In deede, because they had no loue nor liking of the trueth, but rather of leasinges, the Lord by his iust vengeaunce, hath giuen a mighty power of errour vnto such maisters as they haue a lyking of, and such as they are best worthy of. And ther­fore when Moses admonished the people of Israel, Deut. 13. that they shoulde beware of false Prophetes, who might deceyue them, hee namely sayde, that the Lorde would tempt his people by false Prophetes, who shoulde make great shewes of trueth: and he would doe it to this end, to proue whether his peo­ple feared and loued him with al their hart. or not.

Wherein he manifestly declareth, that they which had the true feare of God before them, and loued him in deede, would neuer receiue the false Prophetes, A preseruatiue against errors. and cast off the law, & word of God, but alwayes continue in the doctrine, which the Lord God had reuealed vnto them from heauen.

I thank thee, I now very wel [Page] vnderstand this poynt, and the cause also, why the deuill euery manner of way, hath so great power ouer vs, as he hath. More­ouer, although we haue already spoken of many that are haunted with Deuilles, Of Lunatique, deaf, dumb, and blind Demoni­acques. yet haue wee not all this while spoken anye whit of the Lunatique, deafe, dumb, and blynde Demoniacques.

It is no great matter: Mat. 12. 17. For we will treate of them, Mark. 9. when thou shalt thinke it best. Luk. 11.

¶The fift Dialogue of the Demoniacke world, intituled Lunatike Diuels.

THere is no man liuing, but that would be great­ly afeard, when as hee considereth of the estate where in these poore and miserable demoniackes stoode, who were posses­sed with a Legion of Diuels. But if they were very miserable, no doubt of it, the estate of y ^e lunatike, deafe, dumb, & blind altogether, seemeth vnto me to bee most vn­gracious.

I warrant thee, the least of all these mischiefes is great enough to make the estate of a poore man miserable. For, although we bee neuer wholy blind, deafe, nor dumb, yet see how we take on, when as [Page] our sight alone, beginneth to faile vs, and that wee must bee faine to vse spectacles? Or, if wee heare not so well as wee were wonted to do? or that we stammer, or haue any other impediment in our tongue, and speake not so plainely as wee woulde. And if we be thus at this point, wee may easily iudge, what a miserie it is to bee altogether blinde, deafe, and dumbe. But, if we haue al these at once, besides a number of other strange diseases, ioyned together with thē, then is there a notable sort of mischiefes pi­led vp in vs all at once.

That is out of al doubt, and by how much both the sight, the hearing, & the speech are the excellent giftes of God, by so much are those mē most miserable, who are depriued of them.

For mine owne part, I verily sup­pose that there is no man liuing but had ra­ther die tenne times, then he would be only blinde, deafe, and dumbe, although hee were no demoniacke.

Surely, hee that should be in that estate, shoulde be more miserable, as a man would say, then the very bruite beast. Now imagine that this might be, when as the di­uell [Page] should be amiddest all his mischieuous turnes, whereof he is the cause & instrumēt. And if wee must iudge these Demoniacks to be miserable, what shall we say by them, who haue all these inconueniences in their soules?

If we could aswel discerne these mis­chiefes in our soules, as we cā whē we haue thē in our bodies, I doe not dout but y ^t wee would be in greater fear of thē, 2. Cor. 4. then we are.

And yet for all this, they whome Satan the god of this world, haue blindfol­ded their eies, to the end they should not see the light of the gospell, and whose eares he hath stopped, that they should not heare the worde of God, and whose tongues he hath tyed, y ^t they should not call vpon, and praise the Lorde, and such as whose hearts he pos­sesseth and hardeneth, to the end they should not beleeue the gospel, are without al doubt a great deale more miserable and accursed, then these dumb, deafe, and blinde demoni­ackes, where of wee speake.

And yet a man shall finde a great number of these demoniackes in the world.

Why mā, there is almost nothing els in it. For we our selues, haue somtimes been all in this estate. And that which is [Page] more, al men are such by their owne nature, vntill such time as, Iesus Christ commeth vnto them, to driue out the diuel, who ma­keth them so deafe, dumbe, and blinde. And therefore, Deafe, dumbe, & blinde Demoni­acks, healed by the gospell. so often as we see any man con­uerted to the Gospell, wee must thinke it to bee such a worke, euen a most excellente work of god: neither ought we lesse maruel at the matter, then if wee sawe him healing: the deafe, dumbe, & blynde demoniacks be­fore our eyes. And by this we may iudge, what grace God sheweth to those kindes of people, out of whē Iesus Christe driueth the Diuell, by the preaching of the gospel; that they might see the light of God, whiche without al cōparison, is a great deale more to bee desired; then the light of the Sunne, and make them▪ heare the voyce of theyr shephearde Iesus Christe, and open theyr mouthes to preach & declare his prayse and glory. The grace, whi­che God shew­eth to men, by the preaching of the gospel. For, there is no harmonie of the mouth, nor yet of musicall instrument, to pleasant to y ^e bodily eare, as y ^e voyce o [...] god is pleasant to the eares of the soules, of the children of God. And as this greatly de­lighteth them; to heare this so sweete and pleasant a voyce, euen so likewise is it as [Page] great a delight to thē, to haue their mouths open, to magnifie and sanctifie the name of God, What a cursed estate they are in, which are de­priued of the gospel. and to call vpon him incessantly. And contrariwise, we may iudge in what a cur­sed estate they are, who bee depriued of this benefite of the Lord. For, it is euen as muche as if wee sawe the Diuell visibly raigne amongst the deafe, dumbe, & blinde, neuer ceasing tormenting of them, both in soule and body, more cruelly, then the moste tormentious hangman in the world is able to deuise to torment the most wicked man that might possibly be committed into his handes.

Assuredly, I doe tremble when I thinke of that whiche thou speakest, and when I heare thee speake.

What wouldest thou then say, if thou shouldest see with thine owne eyes, the thing as it is in deed? For, if the Infidels, and enemies of God could perceiue and be­leeue, that they were in this estate, no doubt of it, they would bee more afeard of it then they are.

For mine owne part, I verily thinke, that they would fully and wholy bee contented to die, so that they might but only [Page] vnderstand and lay hold of it.

Why then, if the estate of all such as remaine in the darknesse of error and ignorance, be so accursed, horrible, and fear­ful, yet for all this, there are none of all those which are in such estate, who are more accursed, then those whome God reiecteth, by reason they haue cōtēned his holy word, and to whom he sendeth his prophetes and seruants, to doe that duetie which the Lorde committed to Isaiah, when as he said vnto him, Isaiah. 6. Goe thy way, and tell this people, that in hearing they shall not vnderstand, A prophesie of the hardening of their heartes, which contemne the gospel. and in seeing, they shall not perceiue. Blockishe the hearte of this people, stoppe their eares, and close vp their eyes, to the ende, they may not see with their eyes, nor heare with their eares, nor yet vn­derstande with their heartes, that they may not bee conuerted, and so bee hea­led.

Surely, surely, this is a feare­full prophesie.

By this we may euidently see, that euen as God by his iust iudgement a­bandoneth the Demoniackes vnto the Di­uell, [Page] ouer whom he gaue them power, euē so he abandoneth him, and dischargeth his handes of all such as contemne his giftes & grates, Exod. 4. 7. 8. 9. 10. to the end the diuell might close vp theyr eyes and eares, and so harden their heartes as he did Pharaos, that they might perish accursedly, as they deserued and wi­shed. For, seeing they toke pleasure to blind themselues, because they would not see the light of the worde of God, and stopped their eares, that they might not heare his voice, and hardened their heartes, that they might not beleeue the gospel, they well deserued, that God should forsake them.

Verily, these men might well bee placed, amongest the blinde, deafe, and dumbe Demoniackes, saue that I thinke they are not dumbe to blaspheme the name of God.

If euer there were blinde, deafe, and dumb Demoniacks in the world, these are they. And the greatest number of those, are they who so greatly glory of the knowledge of the gospel, & to be the people of God.

[Page] And therefore this prophesie of Isayah, is alleadged and rehearsed sixe times at the least in the newe testament, as well by the foure Euangelists, as also by Saint Paule. For, Mat. 13. euen as the preaching of Isaiah did blind and harden the heartes of those hypo­crites, Mark. 4. and rebels that were amongest the Iewes, Luke. 8. not through the Prophetes faulte, Iohn. 12. but through their owne: Actes. 28. euen so was the preaching of Iesus Christe, and of his A­postles, Rom. 11. amongest them who in their dayes were like vnto these, against whom Isaiah prophesied. And we see that this prophesie is dayly accomplished▪ not onely in Christi­an Papistes, but also in suche as greatly boast of the reformation of the Gospel: and more in them, then in any other besides, be­cause they most villanously abuse the gra­ces which God hath bestowed vpon them. And therefore, because their vnthankeful­nesse is merueilous great, it is good reason their punishment should bee the greater. Wherefore, it is not without iuste cause that this prophesie is so often repeated in the newe Testament, more then any other that is in all the Bookes of the Prophetes.

I beseech the Lord keepe vs by his [Page] grace, y ^t we fal not into any such inconueni­ences, to the end we become not such despe­rate Demoniakes. But what saiest thou now of Lunatike Diuels? Lunatick Demoniackes. For thou hast not as yet, set downe thine opinion of thē.

Although Saint Matthew cal­leth this Demoniacke, Mat. 17. only Lunatike, Mark. 9. yet Saint Mark sayth, Luke. 9. that he was deafe also, and Saint Luke, The power whi­che the Diuell hath ouer young children, & what the causes there­of, are. that he was dumbe, and they all agree together, that he was euen so from his infancie.

This is very strange, that the Diuel should haue such power ouer young children.

This is an example admonitato­rie to vs of many things, if we can wel con­sider of them.

I pray thee tell me what things they are.

First of all, wee are hereby to iudge of the state & condition of our nature, and how corrupt and accursed it is, by rea­son of sinne, seeing, that euen from our in­fancie, the Diuel hath such power ouer vs. For, if young childrē were without [...]in, the Diuel should haue no power ouer them, Originall [...]. no more then death which the diuel hath begot Rom. 5. [Page] through sinne. And therefore, Saint Paule proueth, that because children dye, that they are subiect to originall sinne, Bead against Iul. and that they haue alreadie deserued punishmente for the same in this their infancie. And so, some of the auncient doctors of the Churche, take this example of the Lunatike infant, to proue the same, against all suche as denie o­riginall sinne, affirming, that young chil­dren are innocent, and without sinne.

Surely, the reason of these an­cient doctors is built vpon a sound founda­tion.

If children then of this age de­serue now such iudgement at the handes▪ of God if God will iudge them in rigour, wee may soone haue an estimate, what venge­ance we dayly deserue at the hands of God, considering, that wee haue not this natural corruption onely in vs, which we call Ori­ginall sinne, and is in young children, but that whiche is more, wee continually carry about with vs the cursed and damnable fruites, by which, we incessantly prouoke the heauie wrath and displeasure of God against vs.

This example ought to teach vs, [Page] to humble our selues vnto the Lorde our God, Mat. 6. and incessantly pray vnto him That hee woulde not leade vs into temptation, Luke. 11▪ but deliuer vs from euill. And therefore we ought to bee very watchfull, and stande vpon our guard, to the end he ouertake vs not vpon the sodaine. For, if this be so cruel an enemie vnto young children, he sure, hee will vse no great curtesie vnto vs. And if GOD giueth him suche libertie to hurt young children, out of doubte, hee wyll ne­uer spare vs, seeing that we haue a great deale more deserued his furie and indigna­tion, then young children?

Euerye man may vnderstande this, if hee will. But yet consider som­what more in another point, of the malice of Satan. It appeareth by the wordes of Saint Luke, speaking of this miserable Lunatike, Luke. 9. that the Diuel, Of the disease which this lunatike [...] had. tormented him not continually, but that hee gaue him some respyte, although but a little. For, hee setteth it downe in these plaine termes, that this Diuell, would hardly depart from this wretched childe. Whereupon, it must followe, that hee departed sometimes from him.

[Page]

Is this the cause, why the Euā ­gelists called him Lunatike.

I doe not thinke, The falling sick­ [...]s. that hee was called Lunatike, because he had the falling sicknesse, which commeth by fittes, as the Moone increaseth and decreaseth. For, be­cause that this disease commeth of the in­firmitie of the brayne, it therfore followeth the course of the moone. And again, because the brayne is very colde and moyst, it agree­eth mightily with the nature of y ^e Moone, which God hath created to be of such a na­ture, as that it might preserue colde and moyst things, as hee hath created the Sun to bee of a hoate and drye nature, that it might preserue the rest of the same conditi­on, to the ende, that all the creatures▪ of God, might be kept in order, which God in his Almightie prouidence hath disposed.

Is this the cause, why wee also commonly call this disease, The hi [...] euill. the hie euil, and that we terme them which are subiect there to, to fall into the hie euill?

That may bee one cause there­of. For it cannot take a man hier, then by the head, or brain, when it taketh him in the [Page] head and braine, as that he falleth to the grounde, as a Butcher knocketh an oxe in the head. It is also said of this Lunaticke infant, that the Diuell cast him, and made him sometimes fall into the fire, and some­times into the water, in such sort, as that it was maruaile that hee had not beene kild a thousand times. It is likewise written, that he fomed at the mouth, and tare himself hor­ribly.

All these accidents, do greatly folow the falling sicknes. But it is namely set downe, that the diuel did all these things and not the disease.

The one of them is no let to the other. The Diuell taketh occasion [...] cause men hur [...] themselues, eue [...] by their own infirmities. For although the Diuell is the Go­uernour and ruler of this doing, yet hee ta­keth it from the infirmitie and disease, wher vnto he knoweth this infant to be subiecte, and occasioneth him to doe that euill to him selfe which he doth, and so serueth his turne therewith, for the exercising of his crueltie and malice towards him. And therefore, hee watched and pryed out the tymes and sea­sons, when this disease came agayne to this childe, and hee himselfe also hastened and furthered it as much as was possible. And [Page] therefore the Diuell surpresed this childe, when hee knew that hee should fall into the disease, to make him fall either into the fier or into the water, and so by that meane de­stroy him if hee coulde. And therefore S. Luke saith, Luke. 9. that the Diuell, with much a doe, departed from this childe.

I haue alreadie considered of two thinges which thou hast spoken. The First, is of that which hath heretofore been hande­led, as concerning the desire which the Di­uell hath to hurt the creatures of God, but especially men, as for example wee haue seene in the Legion of Diuels, who entred into the Gergesites swine, after they had beene driuen out of the Demontacks.

What is that other point, whiche thou wouldest speake of?

It is euen this, That I see the horrible iudgement of God, and his greate mercy together, in one and the selfe same person. For, although God had left this poore and miserable childe vnto the diuell, yet hee so brideled vp the diuel, as that hee coulde not hurte the childe as hee woulde: but in good sorte, in despite of all that the Diuell coulde doe. And God preserued this childe, that Iesus might heale him, at [Page] such time as hee had appointed, to the end that his sonne Iesus Christe might be glo­rified by hym, and that the worlde might know what power hee had, ouer the most wicked and terrible diuels.

Nowe in very deede, this was very well considered, and spoken of thee, but yet there is som thing more to be noted, ouer & besides all this, and y ^t is this, that see­ing the diuel taketh occasion to rush in vpon men, The meane by which we suffer the diuel to haue accesse vnto vs. through their infirmities, and corporal diseases, and so cruelly deale with them, we may very well consider, what occasion hee might take, by the infirmities, diseases, and greeuous sinnes whiche are in our soules, for the destroyng of vs eternally. And therefore we had need, very carefully looke to our selues, how by such means, we inuite and bid him come to vs.

Surely, me thinketh y ^• we haue a very manifest example of that which thou speakest, The example o [...] Iudas. in Iudas. Because, y ^e diuel, seeing him inclined to couetousnes, tooke occasion to enter into him, y ^t redie & open way. For, as I take it, some of the Euangelistes say, that Satan entred into him.

In deede, Luke. 22. Saint Luke and [Page] S. Iohn haue so set it down. Iohn. 13. And althogh the Diuell entered not into him to torment his body, as his custome is, to torment De­moniackes, yet he so tormented his soule, as that he droue him to that issue that he made him hang himselfe. Iudas a very diuell. And because hee was so disloyall a Traitour, Mat. 27. where he shold haue been an angel of God, Acts. 1. vnto the which estate Iesus Christ had called him, Iohn. 6. our Sa­uiour of very right and iustly, Mala. 1. did not onely cal him Demoniack, but euen plaine diuel. For, seeing the true ministers of the Lorde be called in y ^e holy scriptures, Apoc. 2. 3. the angels of god, thē may they iustly be holdē for diuels, which abuse their office, and band thēselues against God, where they shoulde thereby honour him. The conuersion [...]f Angels into [...]iuels. For, heerein they do the office of Diuels, because they abuse their office, and the excellent giftes which God hath be­stowed vpon them.

Me thinketh, that this exāple shold terrifie all couetousmen, but especially, all the wicked ministers of the Churche who make theyr ministerie serue their coueto­ousnes. Couetousnes. For, the diuel hath a iolly entrance into them.

Forsooth, it is very true. But [Page] chiefly into those, which sell and betray Ie­sus Christe and his Church, through their couetousnesse.

Wee might say as much of other vices, notwithstanding that this vice of couetons­nesse, is one of the chiefest, by which the Deuil hath Lordship ouer vs, & maketh vs his slaues.

I pray thee, shew me some other examples of Lunatique Deuilles, tending to this purpose, and of the occasions, y ^t the Deuill taketh by our infirmyties & sinnes to hurt vs withall.

Contented, Eccle. 27. It is written in the Booke called Ecclesiastes: That the talk of a man whiche feareth GOD, is al­wayes wise: But a foole chaungeth as the Moone.

Why, then I perceyue, we may very wel place fooles, Lunatique fools amongst Lunatique men. And so by that reason, the number of Lunatiques shoulde bee great, seeing that there is a great and infinite number of fooles.

Howbeit, if they be both Luna­tique and demoniacques: yea, deafe, dumbe, and blinde, they are the more daungerous [Page] fooles. And yet we see almost nothing els before our eyes. For wee shall see some of them, at one time or an other, seeme to haue a good lyking of God, his worde, and of vertue, and honesty. They haue their momentes, and fittes, wherein they deale wonderfully, so that a man would thinke them to be become the honestest men in the world. And in the turning of an hand, they are so suddainlye chaunged from better to worse, as that thou wouldest saye, that the Deuill was entred into their bodyes, and so became Demoniacques.

These men are such Demoniacques, Saule is left to the wicked spirit as king Saule was. For, it is written of him, 1 Sam. 16. that after Samuel had annoynted Da­uid, to be king ouer the people of God, in Saules steede, the good spirit of the Lorde departed from Saule, and the euill spirite of the Lord tormented him. And shortly af­ter, Saules seruants, called this Spirit, the euil spirit of the Lord.

I take it, that the holy Scrip­ture, so saith, vnderstanding therby, that the lord sent this wicked spirit, in his iust iudg­ment to punish him by him, as he had of lōg deserued.

[Page]

There is no doubt of it. Whereupon thou art to note first of all, that the Hebrew word, which the holy scrip­ture vseth in this place, may be diuerslye interpreted. For, it may also be interpre­ted, that this wicked spirite, terrified, or choked, or puffed vp, or els astonished Saul, and made him become blockish.

But, How the Deuill hath dayly great aduantage ouer vs. before we talke any further of this wicked spirite, which came vppon Saul, after that the good spirit of the Lord was departed from him. It hath heretofore beene declared, that Saule was a great hy­pocrite, and a most glorious man, and an enuious Rebel to God, and had so prouoked God vnto anger, 1. Sam. 15. 17 as that he caused Samuel to tell him, 1. Sam. 31. that he should be bereaued of the kingdome, 2. Sam. 11. which he had giuen him, as in deede it was. And the cause why GOD gaue him ouer vnto the wicked sprite, came by reason therof.

Now, Saule was not so wicked and cur­sed, before such time as the wicked spyrite had taken possession in him, neyther was he any right Demoniacque, without he kept it more close before, then afterward he did.

[Page] And therefore, how are wee to vnderstand this, that the good spirite of the Lorde de­parted from Saule, and that the wicked spirit came vpon him, in the steede of the good?

The example of Iudas, of whome wee haue so often spoke, may serue vs to great purpose, for the resoluing of vs in this question.

For, Iohn. 6. when Iesus Christe sayd, that Iu­das was a Deuill, there is no doubt, but that the Deuill reigned in the heart of Iudas before. But because that Iudas continu­ally more and more abused the giftes and graces of God, and grew worse & worse, wher he should haue waxed better & better, hee made the waye more open and plaine, for the Deuill to enter into him.

Wherefore S. Iohn setteth it down, that the Deuill put it in Iudas heart, to beetray Iesus Christe: Iohn. 13. and afterward hee saieth, as S. Luke sayde, Luke. 22. that Satan entred into him.

It was not meant by the Euangelistes, but that the Deuill was in him before, and namely, when hee beganne to murmure a­gainst the woman, who had spent her pre­cious [Page] oyntment vpon Iesus Christ. Math. 26. But their meaning is, Mark. 14. that we should vnderstād, that the Deuill at that time, Iohn. 12. had taken lar­ger possession in the heart of Iudas, and had greater power ouer him, insomuch that he was maister of all, as experience after­warde manifestly declared.

Thy meauing then is, that it fared euen so with Saule.

True in deede, for the thing is most apparaunt.

For, euen as Iudas did a great deale worse, after such time as S. Luke and S. Iohn spake, that the Diuell was entred in­to his hart, so that Iudas was thē come euē vnto the fulnesse of all iniquitie & wicked­nesse: Euen so fell it also out with Saule, after that the good spirite of the Lorde was gone from him, and he left vnto the wicked spirit. For, before that, the good spirit of the Lorde, caused him to doe manye good things, although Saule had not a true and sound heart. Howbeit, although he did him selfe no good, yet did he good to others, con­sidering the estate wherein he was. But, after that the good spirit of the Lord, had wholy giuen him ouer to Satan, a manne [Page] might haue seene him grow worse, daylye and hourely, so that hee neuer rested, vntill such time as he had [...]illed the measure of al wickednesse, and for a man of his degree & qualitie, made euen as shamefull an end, as Iudas did. For, after that Saule had com­mitted the very worst deedes that he could possibly deuise, against God, and against his seruant Dauid, the Deuil at last egged him so far forth, as that hee destroyed him selfe with his owne handes.

This is a fearefull example of Gods heauy vengeance, 1 Sam. 31. especially vpon so noble a personage. God plagueth the most mighty kinges for their transgressions. For, if God spare not kings and Princes, we are not to look that he will spare any others whatsoeuer.

It is so farre off, that hee spa­reth great kinges, and mightie potentates, because they are of great magnificēce, as y ^t he punisheth them with more greeuous, no­table and fearefull tortures, then any of all the rest of his people. For, by how much the more he hath made them great and ex­cellent, by so much the more are they vn­thankefull vnto his maiestie, when as they abuse his graces. And againe, there are no enemies of God, which more dishonor [Page] him, & do greater hurt vnto al mē, by their euill examples, and lesse punished by men, then they which are in the greatest autho­ritie. And therfore it cannot be chosen, but that God him selfe must arise to execute iu­stice vpon them, seeing that none els wil, or can doe it: And hee must needes cause them make a publick amends, for all the horrible and grieuous offences, which they haue heretofore committed, and stil dayly doe.

To saye truely, hee handleth thē very roughly, when he once beginneth to lay his hand on them.

But amongst all the rest, The Imitators of Saule. whō the example of Saul ought most to terrifie, are all glorious, proude, enuious, and hypo­critical men, and all tyrants, but especially, those kindes of men, What a grie­nous thing it is for a man to sinn against his own conscience. whoe fight against their owne consciences, and persecute such as they know to be most innocent. For, Saule, was subiect to all these vices. But, he most manifestly shewed, what great po­wer the Deuil had ouer him, when as he so openly fought against his own conscience, which oftentimes enforced him to accuse & condemne his own self, for the iniuries and wronges which he had done vnto Dauid. [Page] For, how often was he enforced to say, that he was a vile and wicked man, and had done great iniurie to Dauid, 1. Sam. 24. 26. and that Dauid was innocent, and a far honester man then him selfe? And who enforced him this to doe, but the very power of the trueth, and his owne conscience, which draue him to it, as if he had beene racked to doe it? he right well knew, that he did wickedly, and that he manifestly fought against God, and yet for all this, he no whit amended him selfe: but stil became more trayterous, fierce & cruel, without any regarde, either to GOD, iustice or equitie, then any brute and furious beast.

But when he made such a iolly confessi­on of his sinnes, a man would haue thought, that he had beene very penitent, and altoge­ther conuerted. A man would haue thought that he had beene come againe to his right wittes, and that he had beene verye well di­sposed to haue don much better, then before time hee had. But hee was immediately after, quite and clean altered, and did worse, then before he had done. Insomuch, that at the very same instant, wherein hee vsed these speeches, declaring the innocencye of [Page] Dauid, he tooke his Iaueling, & thought if he had coulde to haue run Dauid through with it, 1. Sam. 18. 24▪ 26. with his owne handes, and after­ward caused him to be sought for al ouer, to haue put him to death.

Surely, herein he right wel she­wed, that he was a very Demoniacke, and most Lunaticke.

We see a great number of such. For, there are an exceeding mighty num­ber of those, who, after they haue long time fought against their own consciences, haue some remorse thereof. But forsomuche as GOD forsaketh them, because they haue forsaken him, the Deuill their mai­ster, who hath so great power and dominiō ouer them, hath no more stay of them, then of senslesse and mad men. And therfore they alter their mynds euery houre. And if it so fall out, as that they sometimes light on the right side, they by & by tumble ouer againe vnto y ^e other side, so y ^t, the moone changeth not so oftē as they do. But this is the nature of al such as are subiect to the diuel. For, af­ter any furious & mad spirit hath once got possession of them, they are neuer long in one mind. Tob. Thou hast already spo­ken [Page] of many greate vices which greately haunt vs, that make vs subiect vnto him.

It is said, that the diuel many times cast the Lunaticke one while into the fire, Who they are, w [...]om the diuel ouerthroweth▪ and maketh them fall into the fire. & another while into the water. Now, whē y ^e diuel eggeth vs forward, so that he causeth vs to fall into the sinne of couetousnesse, he casteth vs into a farre more dangerous fire, then if he did cast vs into a materiall fire. For, The fire of Co­uetousnes. couetousnes, is such a fire, as is impos­sible to be quenched, by reason of that which is cast into it, but burneth stil more & more. Wherefore the couetous men burne conti­nualy in this fire, and consume therin much of that that is cast in, with them.

If they were cast in into a ma­teriall fire, they shoulde bee discharged for being burnt any more. Howbeit, these men, of whom thou speakest, are in a farre worse estate, then if they were burnt but in a smal fire.

Wee might likewise saye as much of Whoremongers. The fire of whoredome and Lecherie. For Lechery is a fire also, and as hard to be quenched, as y ^e fire of couetousnesse. And how many do we daylie see cast into this infernall fire by the diuel, who are there cruelly roasted both [Page] body & soule. But there are a maruellous great number, especially, of these Luna­ticke Demoniackes, whom the diuell very often casteth into this fire of whoredome and lechery, amongest the suppostes of the popish Church, who had rather burne in it, contrary to the counsell of Saint Paule, The contempt of marriage punished. and the expresse commaundement of God, then marry, and finde water in holy marri­age to remedy it, 1. Cor. 7 wherby they might quēch this fire, and so be ridde of it. But they had rather haue the diuel keep them there, Gen. 1. 2. then they woulde serue God in that estate which he hath ordeyned frō the beginning. Math. 19.

But, what are they, whom y ^e diuel maketh thus fall into the water?

Why man, there are an ex­ceeding number of them. We may place in this ranke, all voluptuous and lycenti­ous persons, Who they are whom the diuel causeth to fall into the water. who suffer thēselues to ouer­flow as it were water, in their pleasures & delightes. And therfore they make this en­tree for the Diuell to enter into thē, to the end he might plunge and drown them ouer head and eares, so that they shoulde neuer be able to come out agayne. To be short, if wee woulde discourse of this matter [Page] more at large, we should find, that the most parte of vs, are thus dayly dealt withall by the Diuell, who handeleth vs not onely as hee handled the miserable Lunaticke, but a great deale more cruelly. For there is no comparison betweene the harmes whiche the Diuell is able to doe to the bodies, and those whom he incessantly hurteth in their soules.

Seing we haue talked so long, of so many sortes of Demoniackes, I wold gladly now know of Ierome, what he were able to say to this matter, considering hee hath so long heard vs, & neuer spake worde which I maruel of. And me thinketh also y ^t he is about to leaue his silence, and to say somewhat.

Surely, thou and Theo. haue said so much, as that you haue lefte me no great matter to talke of. A storie of a wo­man Demoni­acke that was neuer satisfied with money. But I will tell you a Tale which once I hard done by a woman Demoniacke, who differeth farre frō those sortes of Demoniackes, of whom thou hast before spoken.

Thou wouldest fayne tel vs here some fable and old wiues tale, to make vs forget all the doctrine whereout we might [Page] gather some good matter, of the talk which we heretofore haue had,

I wil tel thee, they that told me this hystorie, tolde it not vnto me for a fable, but for a true hystorie. And for myne own part, I verily beleeue, that they counterfayted not the matter. And put the case it were a counterfayte thing, yet shal it turne to good purpose, as cōcerning those matters, wher­of you haue talked.

Thou shouldest haue gone on with thine history, whiles we haue entertai­ned thee with these great promises. And therfore let vs now heare it.

First of al, it was told me that this history happened in Almayne, and that this Demoniacke was so lycorous of money, as neuer Iacke Dawe had greater delight in it. For she woulde no sooner come neere any man, but that her hand was sodainly v­pon his purse or money bagge if he had a­ny, that she could find. And if she had once fingred it, she woulde haue so lustely be­stirred her, and so suddaynely haue put the Gold or siluer which she had fingered vnto her mouth, as that a man coulde not haue beene so wary of her, but that shee woulde [Page] haue more suddainelye haue licked it in.

I promise thee, this was a mar­uellous straunge Diuell. Why, those whi­che we commonly call Sarasins, or Egip­tians, or els Bohemians, are nothing skil­full in respecte of this Diuell, no nor yet the Iacke Dawes, who are the notablest theeues for money that may bee, and will sometimes as quickely dispatche it. But what became of this Demoniacke in the ende?

I vnderstoode by them who tolde me the tale, that Luther was asked his opinion of her. For hee was then a­liue, when as this matter fell so out. And the place wherein this thing happened, is not farre frō y ^e place where Luther dwelt: but I doe not well remember the name which was told me.

It is no matter for the name of the place. But tel vs if thou canst, what Lu­thers aunsweare was, as touching this de­moniacke, to those which asked his counsell herein.

I vnderstood, that he told them, that it was an aduertisement of God to the [Page] Almaynes, and to all the world besides, that the diuell Mammon was vnchayned & let loose, God Mamm [...] raigning in th [...] world. and raigned in the worlde, and was now more vnsatiable then euer he had byn before, and therefore leaft neither purse nor bagge vnryfled. And that although he had drawen drye all purses and bagges, and lic­ked vp all the gold and siluer within them, yet coulde hee not be through full: For it is an vnsatiable gulfe whiche neuer cryeth hoe.

What meanest thou by this di­uell Mammon?

That couetousnes, wherof the diuel himselfe is both God and father.

Indeed, me thinketh that Luther hitte it rightlye. And if so bee there had been no such thing, but a fayned matter, for sporte, yet it carrieth a good sence with it, for we daylye see before our eyes, the prac­tise whereof Luther spake, both in al coun­tries, and also in all estates, and therefore the Almaynes are not to bee onelye char­ged therwith. For, we are able to say with­out counterfetting, that there is a diuellish couetousnes al the world throughout. And if a man should consider well of the matter, [Page] we should see couetousnesse, to be a verye right shee Diuel, and maketh men become hee Diuels, & maketh such a nūber of De­moniacks as the woman was, of whō thou erst spakest, and begetteth suche a number of great & litle Diuels, to play this pageāt, as that the whole worlde is nothing els but a Diuelrie, altogether diuelished.

This was that she diuel which chiefly made Iudas such a Diuel, as thou hast saide he was, and so, neuer sithence that euer she ceassed hatching and bringing forth of such like as her self, who are the greatest hinderers of the course of the gospel, which any way might come vnto it.

We are then in a iolly countrey, when as we be in suche an hel, and haue to doe with so many sortes of Demoniackes and Diuels.

The danger is not so great to haue to doe with them, as it is to be one of the number.

I right wel know thy meaning. And therefore the hardest matter for vs re­steth herein, to find y ^e meanes how to auoyd al these inconueniences, to wit, howe wee may first keepe our selues, from falling in­to [Page] these mischiefes. The second is, as tou­ching the meane, whereby we may eschewe the hurt which these diuels and Demoni­ackes might doe vs.

That, which thou hast spoken of, is the very best and chiefest: For, to what pur­pose were it for a man to vnderstand the dis­ease, without a man did thinke to get neces­sary remedyes for the healing thereof, and it were to smal purpose to thinke of them without a man were sure to find them.

In very deede it would serue to none other end, but the more to torment the party grieued, and make him become more desperat [...].

And therefore the verye best way will be, that at our first meeting together, we trauel and goe about this matter.

The sixte Dialogue of the Demoniacke worlde, intituled, The Coniuration of Diuels.

THou desiredst ( Tobie) to vnderstand what reme­dies there were to keep vs, not onely from be­comming to be Demo­niacks, but also to be de­fēded from taking anye hurt either by the diuels, or by the demoni­acks whom the diuels possesse and rule.

Very true. And therefore I am here now ready to heare what fit remedies thou haste brought mee for the purpose: For I right well knowe, that all the Priestes, Friers, and Charmers Coniu­rations, and all the Coniurers that be in the worlde, will litle or nothing auayle, without there be some other helping hand then theirs.

[Page]

Why man, thou must not looke that the diuels and Demoniackes coniure one another.

Why speakest thou that?

Because, if there be any men in the whole world, ouer whom the diuels raigne and haue power, they are the people, of whom thou erst speakest. And therefore if there bee any who of right are to bee taken for Demoniackes, euen those kindes of men, of whom we heretofore spake, are to bee looked for amonges the men of that Courte. For they are suche demoniackes, as that they make all men els very demo­niackes also, what with their false doctrine, traditions, and by meane of that wicked spyrite which guideth and gouerneth them. For, seeing they are the guyders and Go­uernours of others, it cannot bee chosen, but that they whiche are guyded and go­uerned by them, must needs bee led by that spirit, which guideth & gouerneth their lea­ders and Gouernours.

I doubt that Eustace, wil not yeeld vnto that thy opinion.

I care not whether he will yeelde to it or not, yet I am sure it is true that I [Page] haue sayde.

If thou wilt needes haue it so, I shall but loose time to speake against thee. And therefore I shalbe contented to heare, what Coniurers they are that thou canst bring foorth for thy parte, and see what greater vertue they haue more, then those whom thou hast disciphered, and so greatly blamed.

Mee thinketh Tobie, that Theo. hath shewed vnto vs a most excellent reme­die against this mischiefe, whiche is so greatly to be feared: so that in my opinion, if we take it, we shall neuer neede anie o­ther.

A vnderstand right wel, y ^t he hath sent vs backe to Iesus Christ, to seeke this meane and remedy at his hand. And surely for myne owne parte I would neuer goe a­ny further.

Saul very diligently sought after it, but because he went not to God, to whō he ought to haue gone, he neuer found that comfort and remedy against his disease, that he looked for.

What remedy was that? 1. Sam. 16.

His seruants made him beleeue [Page] that it was best for him to haue some cun­ning Musition, The counsell which Saules seruants gaue him. which could play excellent­ly vpon an harpe. And he thought this, to be very good counsel. Wherupō, he forthwith sent to haue such an one gotten him: and at last, Dauid was brought to him to play this parte, for hee had therein, moste excellent skill,

What reason had they to doe thus?

There was great likelihoode, that the seruantes which gaue Saule this counsel, as the historie witnesseth, were his Phisitions, who had met together to con­sult of his disease. What reme­dies the wicked hunt after, whē they are disea­sed. For, when anye sicke­nesse, or other inconuenience falleth vpon the wicked, they neuer cōsider, that it is the hande and rodde of the Lorde that is layde vppon them, without they bee enfor­ced thereto, with the greate blowes of a mawle, as was layde vppon Pharaoh and the Egyptians. Exod. 12. And therefore, where they should looke vp vnto heauen, they stil looke groueling downe to the earth, and runne rather vnto creatures, then vnto the Cre­ator.

And agayne, they that are about them, & [Page] like them, neuer giue them other direction. Wherefore, when Saul was not well at ease, hee must needes sende for remedy for his disease. And his moste excellent re­medy had beene, to haue sent for some sound Prophete or Preacher, to haue told Saul of the grieuous and great sinnes which he had committed, whereby the wicked spy­rit had so great power ouer him, to tormēt him as he did: For, by these and suche lyke speeches, he must needes haue been brought to repentance, and so haue fled to the mer­cies of God, whereby he might haue obtai­ned his fauour, and remission of his sinnes: for, if he had growne to an attonemēt with God, through true and faithful repentance, he shoulde haue founde at Gods handes, that remedye that was moste necessary for him. For, that God, who had striken him in his iust iudgement, could, and also woulde, haue healed him in mercy. But because that Saul, had so lōg dallied w ^t God, & perseue­red so long in his wicked doing, cōtrary to his own cōscience, as y ^t god would not once vouchsafe to giue him that grace to haue re­course vnto him, nor suffer him haue ani mā in his Court, & about him, to giue him that counsel.

[Page]

I doe not thinke this counsell, to be the best counsel that might haue been giuen him: Wee [...] to creatures for aide, rather thē vnto God. howbeit, this is the verye ordi­nary course, which we almost all take, to runne rather vnto Phisitions, and seeke re­medie at the handes of Creatures, then vnto God, the most excellent Phisition of all.

I doe not thinke it amisse, to vse Phisitions, and all other meanes what­soeuer that men are able to helpe withall, so that they be ordeyned of God.

But herein resteth the faulte, that wee forsake GOD, and runne vnto Creatures: But if wee runne vnto GOD, yet haue we more confidence in men, & in the crea­tures, and in the meanes and instrumentes, which he hath ordained, then in God y ^• fra­mer and worker of all, without whome, all the instrumentes are able to doe nothing.

And therefore it is written of king Aza, that GOD tooke away his life from him, because that in his sicknesse, 1. Chron. 16. he trusted more vnto his Phisitions, then hee did vnto GOD. Nowe, if God punyshed those, whoe vsed such remedies as hee had orday­ned, when as they put their confidence [Page] in that, which they should haue done in him, we ought not to meruayle, although hee seuerely dealeth with many, who are not contented to abuse the meanes which hee hath ordayned, but seek after other meanes, which he hath forbydden, & put therin their whole trust.

They which haue recourse to the Deuill, and vnto Charmers, and Sorce­rers, who are his Ministers, directe them selues to other Phisitions and meanes then GOD hath ordayned.

Neyther doe these men escape the heauy hande of GOD, although hee be slow in comming, nor yet they which runne vnto Idolles, and to straunge Gods.

But I pray thee tell me, whe­ther Musicke hath any power against such kinde of madnesse as Saules was, Musick, a remedy against mad­nesse. or not? For, it is to be presumed, that they which gaue Saule counsell, to send for a cunning Musition, where of this opinion.

There are many Melancho­like, and franticke people, whom Musicke serueth as a medicine, because it reioyseth and tempereth mens affections, and there­by [Page] draweth awaye their imaginations els whether, if it be vsed as it should be. But Saules madnesse proceeded not onelye of a ladde and melancholicke humour, eyther yet vppon anger and wrath. But the principall cause was supernaturall: And therefore, although hee founde him selfe somewhat comforted and eased, when Da­uid played vppon the Harpe, yet continued hee still in his madnesse, yea insomuch that he still enforced him selfe to thrust through Dauid, his Musition.

And therefore hee was to looke for re­medie some where els. For, Saules madnesse proceeded from the cursse of god, The cause of Sauls madnes. wherewith hee threatneth all such as will not obey his lawe, Deut. 28. that hee will strike them with blindnesse, furye, and madnesse: in such a sorte, as that hee will make them sencelesse, that they shall be no more able to guyde and gouerne them selues, The spirite of fury and bloc­kishnes. then those blind men, that grope by y ^e wals at noone dayes.

Surely, this is an horrible and very fearefull threat.

All the rest of the Prophetes, which liued after Moses, threatned the like [Page] curse and vengeance, namely to tyrauntes, their Counsellors and Offycers, Isaiah. 19. when as they threatned them, Oseah. 4. 5. that God would sende amongst them, Iohn. 6. 12 a blockish, sleepy, & drunken spirite.

I thinke, that foolish and wicked Counselles, which greatly hurt Princes, their courtes, and principalities, proceede from such a spirite.

That is questionlesse. For, seeing they make no account of the counsel of God, which he delyuereth vnto them by his worde, and seruauntes, they are worthy of such counsellors as are ledde with such a spirite: 1. Kings. 22. As the false Prophetes of Achab: who were, by y ^e iust iudgement of God, sent vnto him, to deceiue him, as he had well de­serued.

Thou wouldest thē thus conclude, that there is no suffycient Phisi­tion, to deliuer or ridde men of such incon­ueniences, saue the most excellent Phisi­tion of al.

Our sauiour Iesus Christ, yeel­ding a reason, Mat. 17. why his Disciples were not able to heale the Lunaticque, Fasting & praies requisite for the casting out of Deuils. tolde them, that that sort of Deuilles could not bee cast out, but by fasting and prayer.

[Page]

Why sayd he so?

He himself declared that suffi­ciently enough, when as he as wel rebuked his Disciples, as also the father of the Lu­naticque, for their incredulitie, giuing them therby to vnderstand, that, y ^t was the cause, why his Disciples were not able to cast out y ^t Deuil, albeit they had vsed al the skil and cunning they had. Wherefore, seeing it was for want of fayth, Encrease of fayth necessary. it was requisite, that their faith should be encreased. And this could not be had, but by the grace of God. For, fayth is the gift of GOD: And ther­fore, as we cannot haue it without him, no more also can it bee encreased but by him a­lone. And therefore, Iesus Christ exhorted his Disciples, Ephe. 2. to pray that it might bee en­creased in them. Wherfore, Iohn. 6. sith it is so, we must addresse vs vnto GOD, by hearty and faythfull prayer. And prayer can in no wise please him, without it come from the soule and heart.

And because that abstinence or fasting, The right vse of fasting. greatlye auayleth the soule or minde, forso­much as being lesse pressed by the body, it is better disposed towardes God: therfore the seruauntes of GOD, haue commonly [Page] ioyned abstynence and fasting with their prayers, when as they would addresse them selues vnto his Maiestie, for any things of great importaunce, and be more feruent in prayer, according as the necessitie of the cause requyred. And therefore, Iesus Christe meaning to let his Disciples vn­derstande, that they had great neede to pray vnto GOD, for the encrease of their faith, and that fasting, greatly auayled vnto prai­er, because it was of great effycacie: he ioy­ned fasting with prayer, when as he spake of fayth that was to be required, for the ca­sting out of this kinde of wicked, and most cruell Deuils.

I doe not much meruaile, that there are this day so few Coniurers, which are able to cast out of the worlde those De­uilles, of whome wee haue heretofore so much spoken. For, there are but a few men, very earnest in prayer. And as for fastinge; the number is lesse, especially amongeste you, who so greatly glory of the Reforma­tion of the Gospell: For, you are not con­tented your selues not to fast: but, which is worse, The abuse of fa­ [...]ting condēned. you scorne them that fast, and con­demne them for superstitious people, and [Page] hypocrites.

I know right well, that thou takest great pleasure to be mery with vs, or els thou speakest of our doctrine accor­ding as thou haste hearde our aduersaryes talke, who can neuer speake well of it, and yet neuer eyther heard or yet vnderstood it: or, if euer they heard it and vnderstoode it, they speake ill of it against their own con­sciences. For, who euer heard vs more con­demn fasting and abstynence, then true prai­er, and all other good workes, which God alloweth and lyketh of.

Wherefore then fast you not in Lent, the foure Ember dayes, the Vigi­les, and other fasting dayes, commanded by y ^e Church.

If we condemne y ^e super­stitious and importable abuses, What true fast are. which the Papistes vse in their fastes, wee doe not for all that comdemne the true fastes, that are according to the worde of GOD, and ac­cording to the right rule of the auncient Fathers and true seruauntes of God: But contrariwise, wee greatly desire, to haue the right vse of those fastes, to bee brought into the Church. For, there is great dif­ferēce between correcting the abuses, & the [Page] abolyshing of good things which men haue abused. And as for the common fastes, there are no preachers which more commēd thē, nor who more grieuously reproue and con­demne gluttony, drunkennesse, and al dis­solutenesse, or losenesse of life, as well for eating and drinking, as also for all other thinges, then the true Ministers of the Gospell, reproue and condemne them.

I doe verely thinke, that that which thou sayest is true, but I finde fewe which follow that doctrine. For, I see manye of your side, whoe are no better re­formed, Gluttonny and drunkennes, clo­ked vnder the ti­tle of the liberty of the Gospell. without, where peraduenture they might at the least haue fasted sometimes, so long as they held our lawe: who nowe, not onely neuer fast, but commonly surfet both in eating and drinking, as if they had receyued the Gospell for none other pur­pose, but to surfette at pleasure, and make a scorne at all abstynence and so­brietie.

I must needes confesse, that there are ouer many such. And I will con­fesse more vnto thee then that. For, if this mischiefe, whereof thou speakest, were but in some of the meaner sorte, it were [Page] lesse to be lamented. But the greatest mischiefe of all the rest is this, that there are a great number of ministers and magi­strates, who are more licentiously giuen to this kinde of vice of trowling and bowling, then those men, whom they ought to correct for such offences. For these are the spe­ciall men, whome a man shall ordinarily finde in the Cauernes and Tipling houses, as if their chiefest occupation were to trowle and bowle, & prouoke others to all loosenes.

I haue hearde it oftentimes spoken, Of the Glutto­nie and drunke [...] nes of magi­strates and ministers. y ^t there are many of the chiefest of your officers amongst you, who take great pleasure to giue the ministers, which will play the good fellowes alittle, theyr lading (as wee say). And these officers thinke, that they haue made a great conquest, when as they haue a minister drunke, as it too too often falleth out. And I doubt not, but that Ierome hath hearde as great newes of this as I.

I knowe more of this, then I gladly would, & I cānot heare it spoken of, but to their great shame which doe, and continue such villanies. But it is easily [Page] to bee seene, what maner of men these mi­nisters and officers are, who thus honestly behaue them selues, thou maist right well say, That Rowland and Oliuer are well met. For, because these officers, are men of wicked life and conuersation, and feare that the Ministers woulde reproue them of their sinnes: They are the gladdest men in the worlde, when they can get in their Mi­nisters to bolle with them, to the end there­by to brydle them, that they shoulde not bee ouer greeuous in accusing and reprehen­ding of them. For, when these Ministers or rather minstrels, haue well wet theyr whystle, they, ouer whom they are Pastors, doe assure themselues then, that they wyll not be too eager vpon them. And againe, these cup whisteling minstrels, haue no re­gard, to much crying out, because they fear that some man woulde accuse them, if they should displease those who were witnesses of their trolling and bolling, & the rest of their vices whereunto they are subiect.

If the case thus standeth, I dare assure thee, that you haue very venerable Apepostles, to cast out all the Diuels by fasting and prayer, which at this present so [Page] greatly trouble the worlde. And if there were no Diuels at all in the whole worlde, these good fellowes, in steede of casting of them out, woulde bring them in. Wherfore, I doe not much maruel, although the Di­uels haue so great power of these drūkards and gluttons of all sortes and estates, and namely, ouer those ministers & magistrates who ryse early in the morning, not to go to a Sermon, but to the Tauerne and there drink a dutant, what saiest thou to it Theo­phraste?

This I say vnto it, that y ^t land, and common weale is accursed, which hath gluttonous & drunkē magistrates & pastors, Eccle. 10. & rise vp in the morning to folow drunken­nesse vntyll they are hoat with wine. Isaiah. 5. And therefore, seeing that all vices reigne in the world, & more amongst them, which should correct and punish thē, then amongst any of the rest, it is no maruell, though there be so many diuels & Demoniacks euery where, as are. But such as feare y ^e Lord, haue a ve­ry good recourse. What deuises and meanes th [...] Diuel hath whi [...] ­he is to be displaced. In very deed, it will bee a hard matter to make those diuels departe frō thē, but yet they shal, wil they, nil they, be displaced, because Christ laieth his hand on [Page] as hee did vpon the miserable Lunatike. For, Mat. 17. when Iesus Christe was in place, it was so farre of that the wicked spirite woulde departe from this poore childe, Mark. 6. as that hee became more madde in him. Luke. 9. And so likewise, when these Diuels, and demo­niackes that they possesse which are nowe in the worlde, feele the Gospel come neare them, and beginne to heare the voyce there­of, they are euen as madde, as if a man shoulde sounde out the Trumpet, to assault them, and giue them the alarme. And, as the Diuell went not out of the Lunatike, vntil suche time as he had first tryed all his forces against Iesus Christe: No more wyll hee be displaced of these Roomes, which he hath gotten possession of, without stronge and mightie combates. And al the while that the Diuell so furiously resisted Iesus Christ, the diuel a great deale more tormen­ted the poore Lunatike, then euer hee dyd before, Insomuche, that hee lay before Ie­sus Christe, as if hee had been dead.

Hee dyd that, to vexe the poore father, of that so very a miserable childe, and because hee had so little faith, his increduli­tie was the reason, why this childe was no [Page] sooner healed. For it seemed, that the presence of Iesus Christ, did him more hurt then good.

It might seeme that Iesus Christe came thyther, Victorie against the diuell, after he had been dri­uen, to his last shifts. to giue the Diuell greater power, to the end hee might finish that worke which hee so long before trauel­led about, which was, to kill this poore mi­serable childe. For, euery man thought the childe to bee dead, when the Diuell leaft him. Howbeit, it fell out cleane contrary. For, when it was thought, that hee was starke dead, hee was quite and cleane deli­uered of the Diuell, and made through whole.

Nowe, wee see that the like of this fal­leth out dayly, we see how the Diuel trou­bleth and tormenteth the worlde, especially in those places, out of which hee knoweth he shall be caste. For, he then falleth into such a rage, as that a man woulde thinke that the Gospell, by which meane Iesus Christe will cast him out, had set open all the gates of hell, to let out all the Legions of Diuels that were in it. For, then hee fretteth and fumeth, and maketh as manie as he hath power ouer, to fret and fume. [Page] To be short, he so terrifieth y ^e whole world, yea, the valiancest and most constant, as that a man would think it should be vtterly con­sumed and come to naught. But euen then, when we thinke it shoulde bee cleane wasted and destroyed, our Sauiour Iesus Christe, sheweth himselfe to be farre stron­ger then he. And therefore, wee must not stande in a maze when we see the troubles and persecutions, which the Diuell and his retinue styrre vp in the world, when as they feele Iesus Christe come neere them, to cast them out through the power of his gos­pell. We haue none other thing to doe but to remaine stedfast and constant, and do that duetie that appertaineth vnto euery of vs: and so leaue the charge of all the rest of y ^e things vnto our Lord Iesus Christe, who will neuer forsake vs, nor yet suffer the di­uell to reigne amongst vs.

I tell you, it is most necessarie that hee shoulde put to his helping hande. For there is none els to withstand the Di­uels power, nor yet stay and came suche an enemies, whome, neuer man was able to vanquish, but he alone. For, so far foorth [Page] as I am able to vnderstand by the talk that wee haue had together, we are not only in worse estate, and more intractable and ra­gyng then bruite beastes, but also then the very Demoniackes. Whereupon, I can not sufficiently enough maruaile at our na­ture. For, we are of that nature and condi­tion, that wee can skill so do any thing, but that which should be for our benefite, Man can doe a­nie thing, saue that which he ought chiefliest to doe. & most necessary for vs. For, there is neither Art, Science, practise, nor yet occupation what­soeuer, which we haue not deuised, and can doe it, and teach others also, sauing the art to liue well, which wee bragge to teache to euery one, and yet are not able to teache our selues, but muche lesse able to practise it. For, there is almost, no beast so sa­uage, cruell, furious, or villanous howeso­euer, but that man by Arte, is able to vanquishe, tame, and master, and make familiar and gentle: But it is a won­der to see that hee is not able to fynde out any Arte, Man a conqueror of all thing [...] but of himselfe Science, Practise, nor weapons, to vanquishe, came, and master hym selfe, and to ouercome and subdue his owne affections.

[Page] Horses and Moyles are with much a doe brought to it: But yet hath man founde the meane to handle them, and make them doe him seruice, in a short time. Bulles and Oxen are mightie and strong: and yet man teacheth them to beare the yooke, and draw in the Cart. The Elephants likewise are most terrible: and yet man maketh them beare as great a burden as he lusteth. Wol­ues and Beares, are very cruell: and yet man maketh them tractable. Lions are very fierce, proude, cruell, and terrible: and yet man maketh them humble themselues, and obey him. There is disa­greement be­tweene the hus­band and the wife. Contrariwise, I see too often that the husbande is not able to maister his wife, nor the wife, her husband, that they might liue quietly together: although shee be fleshe of his flesh, Gen. 2, 3. and bone of his bones, and liue long time togeather, Ephe. 5. both in one house, Gen. 1. 2. and eate their meate together, both at one Table, and lye both in one bed, and which is more, are one body, and one blood. If man then cannot liue with himself, with his owne fleshe, and his owne blood, with whome will hee liue? If hee cannot loue his wife, whom God hath made of his owne substance, and hath giuen her vnto him, for [Page] his aide and comfort, whom will hee loue? Likewise, if the wife cannot humble herself and fit her selfe, Ephe. 5. to agree with her husband, whome God hath giuen her, to be her head, and framed her out of his body, with whom will shee agree, and who shall bee able to a­bide her? There is great contrarietie be­twixt dogges and Cats, yea such a naturall hatred, as is not almost to bee reconciled. And so likewise, betweene Wolues and Sheepe: Lions and Oxen: And yet if they had been brought vp together from their youth, their bringing vp and company kee­ping, which they had had together, woulde worke some power and efficacie to dispoile them something of their nature, & so ioyne themselues in vnitie together: Although they bee beastes of sundrie kindes, and mer­uellously differing, and contrary one to another. What sayest thou to this Ierome?

Mee thinketh, it fareth with men, A similitude o [...] vnthankful men. as it fareth with flyes and swallowes, who are alwayes lodged amongst men, and lye in theyr houses, and yet for all that, a man is not able to master them: for, the [Page] swallowe buildeth her neast in his house, and layeth her egges there, and hatcheth vp her young ones. Man, bestoweth house roome on her, & they both sleepe vnder one roufe, and yet there is no familiaritie be­twene them, neither yet liue they one with another. And in the end the Swallowe leaueth nothing els to the good man of the house for his house rente, but her filthie dounge, after shee hath continued there a great while, and broken him of manie a sleepe with her chattering and chirping. And therfore Tully rightly compared swal­lowes to false and vnfaithful friendes. Tully in his 4. Trooke to Heren. For, as the Swallowes make them readie to come in the Spring, and then depart when cold weather commeth in: Euen so wyll false friendes stande by vs so long as the weather is faire and cleare, but when they see the winter of mishap come vppon vs, they flie away from vs euery chone. And therefore it was not amisse said of Pitha­goras, Pithagoras Creede. to forbid men of receiuing the swal­lowe vnder their roufe.

What meant Pythagoras by that.

His meaning was, Plutarch. that it is not [Page] good to be familiarly acquainted w ^t Iang, lers, Quest. li. 8. slaunderers, and vnthankfull persons-who are rightly represented by the Swal­lowe. For, a man shall neuer get any good by them, but sorrowe, griefe, hurt, and dishonour. And is not the flie likewise I pray you, alwayes in the kitchin? The first at the Table, the first in the dishe, and ta­steth all the meates wee eate of. Yea, they will doe it, although we were Emperours and Kinges, and more then this to: They take assaye oftentimes before the cooke.

But what fauour find we by them for all the benefites which they dayly haue at our hands, in our houses. What wage & reward haue we of them?

This wee haue, they greue and be­ray with their dirt, whatsoeuer faire and beautifull thing that is within the house.

And more then that, for they en­gender vermin and corruption, neuer cea­sing to importune, sting, and bite vs, euē til the blood follow withal, and are neuer con­tented with all the benefits y ^• we bestow on thē, w ^tout they also suck & drinke our blood.

These Flyes are farre more dangerous then man, and a great deale [Page] more vnthankefull. I see fathers and mothers also dayly, that cannot agree with their children, but after, that those fathers and mothers haue wasted the odours, and fumes of the odours, which are continually about their children, and dandeled them, and haue been greeued and vexed, The great vn­ [...]hankfulnesse of [...]ome children, [...]owardes their parents. and had many a foule hand with them in the bringing of them vp: so soone as these children haue bin growne vp to rype yeeres, they would not once acknowledge either father or mother: They would neither see them, nor beare with them: but driue them oftentimes, out of the house: or els theyr parents were in­forced to driue them out, by reason of their rebellion and wicked dealing. I neuer saw any such vnthankfulnesse, nor crueltie betweene Dogs and Cats, Wolues and Lymmers, Lions and Lions whelpes. I haue seene these Landleapers, Landleapers. who haue lead all the countries ouer, Lions, Beares, Apes, Asses, Horses, and many other sortes of beasts, and ruled them as they listed. For, they would make them do whatsoeuer they pleased, and commanded them. They haue made them daunce, leape, lye styll, stand vp, touch on the ground, make curtesie, march [Page] march with a pyke, and winde a flate. To bee shorte, I am not able to tell you in a longtime, howe many sundrie thinges they haue taught them, and made them doe. For, they taught them to doe all things. What is the cause then, why man is so well able to instruct the most vnteachable bruite beasts, and doe learne of him, and yet hee himselfe, not able to teach himselfe, nor yet learne of himselfe that, that is necessary for hym to learne, and without the which, he is in deed no man?

No, not the wife of her hus­bande, nor the childe of the father.

What is the cause then, why doe these Landleapers take so great paine, to teach beastes, after this sort?

It is to none other ende, but to make men sporte, and thereby, get mo­ney of them, that they myght liue the ease­lier.

Now, what greater pleasure can any man haue, then to see his children well instructed? Is there any Ape more plea­sant? with whom may they haue any better pastime? And what greater commodity can any Landleaper draw out of beastes, which [Page] he so teacheth, then the father frō his sonne, the husband, from his wife, or the brother, from his brother, or one neighbour from an other, if they could as wel learne of them, as the beasts learne of the Landleapers.

This is most certaine, ☞ a man shall finde a great many moe children, The Hippopo­tame. like the Hippopotame, then the Storke.

What manner of beast is that Hippopotame?

It is a beast that is bred chiefly in Egypt, in the riuer of Nile, & y ^e one half of him is like an horse, and the other halfe like a fish. And therefore, he beareth this name, that is to say, a riuer horse.

What is thy meaning by naming of this beast?

I will tell thee, They that haue written the histories of the natures of beastes, Plutar. Booke. haue set downe the nature of this beast, Whether the beastes bred on the land, be wiser then they which are bred in the water. to bee so peruerse and cruell, as that so soone as hee is come to any rype yeeres, being therto brought by y ^e endeuour of his parents, that hee will kill his father, and afterwarde haue to doe with his mother. And howe many children, thynkest thou shall wee finde at this day, who are [Page] not grieued, that Fathers & mothers liue so long, and thinke of nothing els, but to see the end of them?

And how many thinkest thou there are of such childrē, who bring their pa­rentes to the graue, with very sorowe and pensiuenes, to see their vntowardnes.

Alas, if man sheweth him selfe to be such a one, to those who haue begotten him, and brought him vp, what good shall other men hope for at his handes.

But tell mee also, I beseech thee, what thou meanest by speaking of the Storkes?

I put in them, beecause they are of a cleane contrary nature. The Storke. For, if wee shal giue credit vnto natural Philosophers, Plin. in his [...] Booke. cha. 2▪ both Greeks and Latines, & to their Pro­uerbs, Antipelar­gosis. they bring vp & comfort their dams in their old age, & by that meanes, shew thē selues thankful vnto them, for their bring­ing vp of thē, when they were young. How sayest thou Theophrast, is it not so?

In very deede the Hebrewes, giue this Fowle, which here, in our lāguage, we call a stork, & giueth her in y ^e Hebrew tōgue a name, which signifieth, mercy & curtesie. [Page] And therefore, there is great lykelyhood, that this name was giuen vnto her, vppon the reason which thou haste yeelded. And therefore, Basill. Basill the great exhorteth all Christians, Suydas. to followe the examples of the Storke.

And Suydas also testifieth, that hereupon, an Embleame and deuise was made: An Embleame [...]nd deuice for Princes. In which, there was a kinglye scepter, layd vpō an Hippopotame, & there­vpon iewbed certaine Storkes.

What was the meaning here­of?

The meaning was this, That Kings and Princes should by their power and authoritie, suppresse all vnthankefull, wicked, [...]. Crinit. de [...]on. disc. lib. 4 [...]a. 13. and tyrannous personnes, that would not yeelde their obedience, to those, to whom, in duetie and conscience they are bound, but yeelde ill for good, both to theyr parentes, countrey, and Church, whoe had begotten them, and brought them vp. And contrariwise, they that should sustaine, and maintaine, al such as were Debonaire, and acknowledged the good turnes, which they had receyued, and had discharged them selues of all such dueties, as of right they [Page] ought.

And for that cause also, S. Am­brose saith, that amongst the Romaines, the Storke was taken to be an example of all pietie and debonairtie.

This deuise, wher of thou spea­kest, Ierome thinketh it, not too much a­misse. What saiest thou to it Theophraste?

I will tell thee mine opinion. Mans vnthankfulnes towards God. I doe consider thus with my selfe, howe it should be possible, that one man shoulde be faythfull to an other, when as man, is so trayterous, so vnfaythfull, and altogether so vnthankful, towardes God his Creator who is both his Father, and souereine lieg Lorde and Prince. For, howe can hee obey a mortall man, who is a Rebell, to the immortall GOD, Isaiah. 40. 4. who hath both our lyfe and death in his hand, Acts. 17. and is the same God, by whome we are, liue, and dye. And ther­fore, is not this a most horryble thing, that man, who is but a worme of the earth, and no man in deede, in respecte, and scarse able to crawle vpon the ground, should be so vn­thankfull and rebellious? For, were it not for the hope of eternall lyfe, wee might [Page] right well say, that he were the most myse­rable of all the creatures in the world. And yet he dareth him selfe alone, boldly resiste al order of nature, and refuse to doe his due­tie, wherunto al the rest of the creaturs are most obedient. He boldly dareth lift vp him selfe, against the Authour, and Gouernour of all things, who made him of the slyme of the earth, and in a moment is able again to dissolue him. I cannot inough meruayle, when as I consider of this great pryde and arrogancy of man, how he alone dareth re­siste his God, whome, all the rest of his cre­atures, the heauens, the earth, the sea, the starres and planets, al the elements, beasts, Angels, and Deuils obey.

Surely, for mine owne parte, I woonder at it, euen as much as thou doest.

But thou wouldest a great deale more woonder, if thou diddest more nar­rowly consider, of the infirmitie and myse­rie of man, wherewith hee is continuallye enuyroned, and as it were almoste quite and cleane swallowed vp, sithence the time of his conception, and what his nature and frame is. And therefore, seeing we are [Page] entred into this talke, me thinketh, that this cōsideration, and contemplation wil not be amisse, for vs to debate on. For the which cause, I am of the opinion, that wee might handle this poynt somewhat more at large, if you will agree vnto me herein. Howbeit, I feare nothing but that we should be ouer long, because there are in this behalfe ma­ny good thinges, and worthy dilygent con­sideration.

I beleeue there is none here, but would be right gladde of it. For, it is a matter worth the handling. But to the ende we might all profit the more. I take it, that our best way were, for the present, to talk of some other matter between, & recreate our selues a little in this faire Garden. For, when our mindes are alwayes occu­pyed about one thing, it groweth yrkesome vnto vs at last, although it were neuer so pleasaunt or profitable. Againe, we cannot so well carry away all, when our mindes are surcharged with ouer great a multitude of matters, and besides, when wee haue no delight in that that we heare.

Without doubt, there is nothing more certaine.

[Page]

I know not my maysters, whe­ther you be weary or no: But for mine own part, I am weary of hearing of good talke, when I shall tarry all day and all night a­bout it.

And, I doe thinke, that there is none of vs weary in this good cōpany: But because we may be the fresher, and followe the matter more cheerely, I am contented to agree to Ierome. And therefore, I thinke it moste expedient, that we walke a little here in this garden, and looke vppon the goodly flowers, which God hath crea­ted for our vse: to the end, that in beholding of them, we may the better alwayes learn, to acknowledge his great power, wisdom, bountie, and that therby, we may haue the better occasion to prayse him, and yeelde him our humble and hearty thankes: And then wee maye after enter againe into our matter. And where wee haue heretofore spoken in generall, of the disorder and con­fusednesse of the world, and of the daunger wherein it standeth, wee will also speake somewhat more, in perticular of man, who is the cause of all the disorder, and great mischiefes, that at this present reigne in the world.

[Page]

Seeing you are all of this opi­nion, I promise you, I for my parte, wyll not be against it. Let vs rise therefore, and get vs hence.