His first Proposition examined and an­swered.

WEll then, a Tax we must have, be it only to dispose Authority to subdue Interest: The question is, which way at present to raise moneys, so as may most agree with equity, and conduce to the ease and be­nefit of the Commonwealth.

Many expedients are put into the ballance by my worthy Discourser, and all found too light, either in respect of time or mode, and at last he runs upon the rock (as he terms it) of a Land-Tax.

But can the Land bear it? yes, sayes he, provide him but a [Page 2]crew of money-mongers, who may (in effect) contribute e­qually with the Land.

We may once more (cryes he) endure the burthen of a Land-Tax, mitigate but the grand pressure of Usury; that is, (being translated into English) those who are actually in debt can pay one Tax more, in case one third of their growing Interest were abated, thereby (it may be) gratifying one of them with the abatement of 2. or 300. l. per annum, to eternity, out of an honest Creditors purse, for the payment (possibly) of 200. l. to the publick for a year. Is not this robbing Peter to pay Paul, and cutting large thongs out of other mens hides? a fine way of paying debts, and raising Taxes: no better expedi­ent in the world for men in debt; for be sure, if all the other fine things promised, fail, one thing will hold, interest will be less'ned, and the Usurer will (in effect, yea, and with a venge­ance too) contribute equally with them: nay pray reckon the poor man right, whatever your payments are; for to my know­ledge he shall (thus) pay fifteen times as much; and which is fifteen times worse, be jeer'd to boot, by perswading him 'tis to do him good, even against his will, as my Discourser hath it in his Preface.

This is a witty way to rid us quickly of all Usurers, and send them hastily into the other world.

And good reason, for they are (if you will wink and believe my Discourser) the grand Excise-men of our Land and trade, a burden that makes the Land groan. Pray not so eager. Who laid this Excise upon our Land or trade; the Usurer, or Bor­rower? was it done by meer legerdemain of the Usurer? he swears he sought not for the Gentleman or Trader, he had, something else to do with his money, if they would have let him alone; for he is a Merchant himself, a Free-holder, (Usury is not his calling, as Sr. Thomas in Drollery terms it) or an in­dustrious Tradesman, nay a Gentleman, (to save my Discours­er the trouble of making him one) and what would you have him do, let his neighbour sink, go to prison, sell his goods to Lurchers at 20. per Cent. loss, break off the marriage of a daugh­ter, [Page 3]and for these kindnesses to his fellow-Gentleman, fellow-Trader, &c. he is now by their Champion defied to his face, rewarded with hard language, and terms of comparison, which no worthy borrower will thank him for; and endeavours are us'd to defeat him of his Interest, yea and (I think) of his prin­cipall too, by wishing he may not thrive in lending thereof; because, forsooth, his betters do not thrive by the borrowing of it; which peradventure, some of them never would, were money lent them gratis: thus it commonly proves when men demand lent money: these sort of wishes (whereof this is not the first I have, on this occasion, seen publish'd within these four­ty five years) seem to be of an odd and distempered nature, and have a strange tang with them.

Object. Pray then why takes he so much Ʋsury? is not 3. or 4. per Cent. enough in all conscience? and what though the borrower by his industry and skill makes 20. or 30. per Cent. or winds him­self out of trouble by the money; 'tis the conduct of the man, not the money, that does the feat.

Answ. 1. This money the lender got by great industry, and kept it by him useless these six moneths, and now his neighbour having urgent occasion for such a summe, borrows it, when peradventure the lender within ten dayes after might have got 15. l. by a bargain himself, in case he had kept his money by him, and borrow suddenly he cannot; Or 2. this money is the whole livelihood of a Widow, Orphan, &c. who lending it to a man that gains 15. per Cent. (for so much I believe all traders do) is it not reasonable the lender should have at least one half thereof, as well in respect of the hazard he runs, as of the bene­fit the borrower makes; for as it is true, money of it self encreas­eth not, without the conduct of the man, so the skill of the man, without the help of the money, would signifie little; as the lame man and blind man mutually assisted one another. 3. Can any man repine at the giving 6. per Cent. when the advantage there­by supports him and his all his dayes, and enables him to ap­pear in the world as a man of repute? 4. No man will keep mo­ney by him with intentions to lend for so poor a praemium as 4. per Cent. which will hardly reward the telling in and out, and [Page 4]make good the brass money; much less answer the hazard of lending, which is so considerable in this deceitfull age, (where­in persons and estates bid defiance to our Laws at some seasons of the year) that I perswade my self the Insurance-Office would demand above 30. s. per 100. l. to secure the moneys lent on secu­rity in England. 5. and lastly, Scarce any man in the whole Nation complains of 6. per Cent. but the Gentleman, who of all mankind has the least reason; for were it not (generally speak­ing) his own fault, he has the least occasion of any man to bor­row; tradesmen must borrow, and make advantage, but I am yet to learn what puts our Gentry upon considerable borrowing, except such things I am not willing to record; since not one in seven borrows to advance any laudable improvement.

There is another sort of men ( viz. Gentlemen not in debt) concern'd in this conditionall Tax, who are not to expect present advantage by subduing Interest, but are to solace themselves with an assurance of future improvement of their inheritances in va­lue, as certain as if it were in their purses, saith my Discourser; what stomacks these Gentlemen will have to swallow these sweet­bitter pills, compounded of a large Taxe certain, and profit un­certain, I refer to their mid-night thoughts, and leave them casting about how they may improve their Lands and Tene­ments, or raise a Farm (now) 100. l. per annum, to at least 130. l. in the future, or when they have a mind to sell it, how they may have 25. years purchase upon the improved Rent. These are fine things to shorten a long winters night, when a man cannot sleep; but I am afraid they cannot hit on't; both ends will not meet, and my worthy Discourser must be put up­on a new task; we must have a Book of new fashioned improve­ments, for our old wayes will hardly keep up our old Rents; and when we see the happy effects thereof, the Author shall be to us Great Apollo.

But our happiness is, we have a third sort of Landlords, (which Sr. Thomas did not please to think on) and I hope the one third of the Landlords in England, at least in weight, who are so far from being in debt, that by a happy conduct they are masters of considerable summes, and that upon Usury, (as he in [Page 5]severity calls it:) Now to deal alike with the Landlord-lender, and Landlord-borrower, in levying this imaginary Tax, is mon­strous unequall; lay the same. Tax upon the Land of a Gentle­man-Usurer, (if Sr. Thomas will admit the term) and sink one third of the income of his money, (which peradventure is half his estate) is to undo him quite; and for the Landlord-borrow­er, to taxe his Land once more, and abate one third of his Usury, is (possibly) to recompence him 10. or 15. fold at a­nother mans charge, and allay (peradventure) the violence of the disease for a while, but death lyes at the door, and without better remedies, on his part, then meer abating Usury at last en­ters, and so two men are undone without saving either.

And this will be the consequence of our fine Tax, cunningly propos'd to make the intrigue of subduing Usury go down the glibber with some body; which I humbly conceive were much better to keep up, and find out a way like that of a Register, (so long and passionately desired) which at once might enable the solvent Gentleman to borrow easily (which now he cannot do) on all occasions, reasonably secure the money lent, affright men from running greatly into debt, lest their nakedness appear, pre­vent ten thousand frauds, and as many Law-suits, dis-serve none but the insolvent and ill-minded men, and direct the State upon all e­mergencies to lay impositions on it, equall to the Land-Taxes, (if they must continue, as God forbid they should) whereby the burden thereof may be greatly easie, and nothing done but what is agreeable to justice.

His second Proposition examined and an­swered.

THat the improvements of our Lands, as far as the nature of them will permit, and the capitall charge secured, is (as Sr. Thomas well observes) the only solid Basis of our wealth and trade, I think no man so mad as to deny: since traffick that does not contribute thereunto, is but making our Neighbours rich, and undoing our selves, as hath been, I hope, fully remonstrated in the Introduction to this Discourse.

The Question is, what compass we shall steer by to arrive at the Haven of these imaginary improvements; whereby we might raise the productions of our Lands to so great an encrease and cheapness, that we might afford to under-sell our Neigh­bours, who now under-sell us, and force the people of every Countrey to throw their plow and wheel, and all industry into [Page 7]the fire since they can buy Corn, Cloath, Fruit, Fish, Flesh, and what not, cheaper of us, than make or provide them at their own homes: Why, saith my Discourser, sink Interest, that's his medicine for all maladies, to 3. or 4. per Cent. and it does the feat I warrant you: for having nothing else to do with our money, we shall be forc'd upon laudable improvements, we shall so dung and manure our Lands, ( like a late project we had to propa­gate 200 grains of wheat from one) corn shall encrease; to under­sell Dantzick. Our Sheep must needs multiply, yea, and magnifie too, saith my Discourser, through the richness of our pastures, that our Grasier, and by consequence our Clothier, may afford cheap pennyworths. We shall have fruit not worth gathering, fish to beat the Hollander out of his markets; and for flesh, our thrifty neighbours shall not need (as now they do) to feed upon Roots, Colworts, and red Herrings, we will sell them flesh better cheap. Holstein, Juitland, and Germany too shall yield to our markets, for Ireland shall be our nursery for Cattle, and we will sat them for the slaughter. These are, I conceive, either expresly or im­plicitely contained in this second Proposition, which before I come to examine, I must crave leave to ask a few questions of my Discourser.

Does he really believe that height of Interest, and not dear­ness of wages, which is almost the whole charge in improve­ments, hinders all laudable designs and projects? if he do, he must maintain that 2. or 3. per Cent. in Usury must hinder more (and that seems somewhat strange) than 15.20.30. per Cent. does in labour and wages, for so much are we dearer therein than all forraigners, and (which must be of most pernicious conse­quence) 12. or 16. per Cent. dearer than our selves were within these 16. years.

Where is now the treasure of the Nation? lying idle? lock'd up in the misers chests? if it be now at 6. per Cent. much more will it be at 3. or 4. If it be now imploy'd upon some good occa­sions, either by the owners or borrowers, (as I think no man will deny, it being so scarce to be borrowed; or else 'tis carried out of the Nation, both by the Merchant and some body else, and this I conceive is truest) it can be but imployed, reduce U­sury [Page 8]to what you please, only the borrower shall hav [...] 2. per Cent. more profit, which concerns not the Commonwealth at all.

For the better examining this Proposition, we will en­quire,

First, Whether subduing Interest will operate at home to those wonderfull degrees promised; that is, double, nay treble the yearly fruit and product of our Lands, and secure the capitall charge laid out upon them, whereby we shall be enabled to un­der-sell our neighbours, who now under-sell us. And then,

Secondly, Whether it will oblige forraigners to fit still, and take their food and raiment of our providing, granting it best cheap, whilest we get into our hands all the wealth and navigati­on; for unless this be the consequence of our encrease, the meer encrease it self would signifie little.

1. Whether subduing Interest to 3. or 4. per Cent. will force our people upon new improvements, the yearly fruit of our Lands shall be doubled, nay trebled profitably to the im­ployer.

I wish it may: but I rather fear it will make him careless of his Coyn, having been us'd to greater profit, he will venture all to try conclusions, and so between unskilfulness, discontent, and necessity, ruine one; I fear this will be the consequence of for­cing men upon business to which their education and genius ne­ver led them: for if the pretended improvements fail, as most men of judgement assure me they will, I am sure decay must follow.

But should I grant the design to prosper, and the fruit and product doubled for a year or two, yet may be occupier have no cause to bragg of profit, when he has summ'd up the charge and wages of men and cattle.

Land may be made to yeeld treble encrease, and yet not an­swer the charge, without reckoning much Usury. 'Tis well known most of the Lands in England are either upon their best improvements, or our discreet Farmers are to seek in their cal­ling; unless I should grant (what in strictness is true) that Land is of that nature as never to be at its full improvement, as long as the Occupier will bestow yet greater charge upon it; and in this sence, every acre may be made as good as the best Gat­dens about London: but still the question remains, how the im­prover shall be recompenced; nay I should judge the man ripe for Bedlam that attempts it, though Interest were at 2. per Cent. the mending of some Lands may be like the making a fine dish of meat of a Shooe-soal, where other chargeable ingredients have the dominion, it will never quit cost: the doubt is not so much whether Black-heath will answer Interest at 3. or 6. per Cent. as whether it will honestly return the capitall charge bestowed on it. Could I accomplish that for 60. l. which now costs me 90. l. meerly in respect of dear wages, I should find other sort of en­couragement than by abating of a little Usury; for then, what might not be expected from industry thus armed? for though the Interest of 60. l. at 6. per Cent. cost me as much as 90. l. at 4. per Cent. yet should I save 30. l. of the capitall in the improvement or project, whereby either the success would be then more gain­full, or the miscarriage not so fatall. And this is the advantage the forraigner hath over us.

Tis dear wages then, and not Usury, nor want of ingenuity, that makes projects and improvements so unsuccessfull amongst us, whilest they thrive with our neighbours, as a worthy and ju­dicious Scotch Commander, well known in England, and expe­rienc'd in severall forraign Countries, was pleased within these eight moneths to observe to a near Relation of mine, alleadging, that the dearness of our wages, compared with other Nations, was alone sufficient to discourage all improvements, and destroy ma­nufactures; so that either we must have more efficacious Laws to retrench wages, or else all industry must suddenly cease; so vain is it to cut channels, as long as the fountain and springs are stop't up.

And yet in this very thing of projects and industry, let me be excused, if I prefer many forraigners before our selves, and do appeal to those who know the fens in Lincolnshire, &c. whether the French, Dutch, and Walloons, inhabiting those parts, do not manure those Lands with greater ingenuity, thrift, and in­dustry, and grow richer thereon, (number for number) than their English neighbours, who through easiness content them­selves with one crop in the year, whilest the other by their in­dustry make some greater advantage: besides, who knows not that these Lands were gained principally by the skill and ingenuity of these people.

What wayes soever we take to pursue improvements, labour is almost the whole charge: Pasture is to be mended either by Dung, Sea-Sand, Clover, Cinque-Foyle, or the like; Tillage by Dung, Sand, Lime, Chalk, Marl, burning the Turf or Stubble, &c. in most of which labour is the principall charge; now for any of these, I would appeal to the impartiall and indu­strious, whether the consideration of 6. per Cent. be it their own, or borrowed of the Usurer, has discouraged improve­ments, or whether they have not rather feared a cheap year, want of vent, (as at this time) dear wages, and impairing the capitall, and thought of Interest, as Tradesmen do of paper and pack-thread.

Let Usury and industry be what you please, improvements so as to double the yearly fruit are not so easily accomplish'd, as some men fondly imagine. 'Tis the Philosophers Stone, and the dull Farmer cannot find it out: all his skill can hardly raise the yearly product, to answer the rent he is now rack'd at, though he payes not a penny Usury. I could name a witty man projectingly given, that us'd to say the Farmers were fools, whilest he pursuing new wayes of husbandry after his own inven­tion, imploying many labourers, and teams at dear rates, set­ting, planting, and sowing forraign seeds and commodities, (some of the very same improvements my Discourser aims at) under the notion of improvements; keeping his Corn, Cattle, Timber, &c. for imaginary markets, and other wilfull and con­ceited projects, wherein debauchery had no share, nor Usury, [Page 11](as far as I could learn) till the latter part of the day brought 1500. l. per annum to a trifle.

Force or flatter men by 3. or 4. per Cent. upon such improve­ments, and we shall have, no doubt, a rich world of't.

As for improvements by Plantations, my Discourser is pleased to say, the benefit thereof is scarce credible, and that the pasture (if trees stand not too thick) is rather better, and that oft-times a planted acre yields more profit (without charge) than many acres of the best tillage, and yet (which is scarce credible) but that he sayes it) at the next line he affirms, we forfeit this im­provement, meerly because it will not answer forbearance at 6. per Cent. the truth whereof let us here examine, and judge of the rest as we find this.

To plant an acre of ground requires 140. trees, I mean Cher­ry-trees, being ungrafted, (which is best) the cost at 4. d. per tree is 2. l. 6. s. 8. d. and planting 6. s. Having planted them, you may use your ground either to gardening or tillage, having respect not to come too near the tree or root with the plow, keeping the roots from colds and heats, with muck or straw. The third year you may graft them, which shall cost 2. s. still continuing tillage, with great care of the roots; and thus you may do till the seventh or eighth year: this, I think, is all the charge, besides the fences, in planting an acre of ground, viz. 2. l. 14. s. 8. d. Indeed I have heard that some have given the ground five or six years together, upon condition to garden it, and preserve the trees, but then the Land is poor, and remote from some good Town, which in six years at 6. s. the acre is 36. s. whereby my charge in this case is now become 4. l. 10. s. 8. d. After the sixth or seventh year I am sure to hire the blossome of this acre for thirty or fourty years, if it be well seited, and apt to bear, for about 30. s. per annum, be­sides the Turf; and now let any one judge if 6. per Cent. be the criminall, and if the hubub be not raised on a doughty occasion.

But the complaint is prosecuted farther, according to the ho­nest rule, accuse lustily, and something will stick: Plantations [Page 12]are confin'd in effect to four or five Counties, and there but thin, but if Ʋsury were subdued would soon become generall: what, whe­ther the soyl or air be proper or no, or vent to be had? what should we do with more than each County would spend? we should find no great markets abroad for such trash, nor vent for our Pippins, though a lasting and delicate fruit. Our Cherry [...]ations in Kent would soon be destroyed but for the neigh­bourhood of London, for when her mouth was stop'd by the late Contagion, that fruit was scarce worth gathering. However, we have vast quantities of fruit in many parts of England, (where the soyl and air by experience are found proper) for our domestick occasions; and more we might have, without reducing Usury, would our Gallants spend more of their time and money upon laudable improvements in the Countrey, instead of wasting so much in London: and that my Discourser may see how well one remote County is planted, which plantations were certainly made when money was at 10. l. per Cent. I do assure him that in June, July, and August, 1654. I bought about 1100. hogsheads of old Cyder within 15. or 16. miles compass of Plymouth, and surely that part would have afforded at another season much more; since that, I have been informed, one Pa­rish, nine miles from Plymouth, wherein Sr. Francis Drake then liv'd, has in a plentifull year yeelded 800. hogsheads of that commodity: so that here is great cry and little wool.

But should I grant (which I shall never do, till I have better evidence) that were Interest at three or four per Cent, our year­ly fruit and product would be doubled, and the Capital main­tain'd, which was imploy'd to propagate this increase, whereby we should be inabled to under-sell our neighbours, will it there­fore follow that the forraigner will sit with his arms acrosse, and take his food (and rayment too) of our providing, whilst we get into our hands the Wealth and Navigation of Europe: if this would have done it, I wish we had had the experiment before the late Dutch War, it might have sav'd us Blood, and Treasure to a wonder.

But in good earnest, shall we under-sell our neighbours? and will they long endure it? by what rare arts shall we keep the knowledge of this hidden vein from them? will not the cause of [Page 13]our underselling them be apparent enough? and will not they, if that will do, take the same course, and shall not we then be just where we were before such retrenchments? me thinks I see our neighbours smile at us, whilst we, like children, winck and fancy our selves invisible. Will the Hollander, who lives cheaper, in food and raiment, works cheaper, sails cheaper, builds Ships cheaper, Na­vigates cheaper, and has a Noble for our nine pence, be ever under­sold in the same commodities they have in common with us? shall we ever hope for such crops to oblige Holland and Dantzick to pull down their Granaries? why then want we plentiful Markets abroad for our Corn (for most certain, Markets we want) now wheat is not worth above 2. s. and 2. s. 4. d. the Winchester bushel, in many parts of England? and though 'tis true, we cannot afford to sell at that price, yet shall we at the Rents we sit at, (which our alleadg'd must be higher, when Usury is lower) and wages we pay (though Usury were at three per Cent.) ever hope to have such crops, that we might cheerfully afford to sell at that price? he that maintains this proposition, is either highly confident of his own abilities, or of the credulity of others.

The Dutch are not the men I take them for, if they let fall their Navigation, and Manufactures, be worm'd out of Trade, give way to any Rival, and let their people beg about their streets. A poor man must use miraculous industry to beat a rich man out of Trade: has the French King lately spied out the secret of Trade and Manufacture, and drives on Jehu-like, and will this new project of our nip him in the bud? make him revoke his frequent edicts against our Drapery, suffer his people to sit idle, eat our Bread, and wear our Manufactures, meerly in regard of cheapness? a good argument, I confesse, amongst the ignorant and brutish people, who see not a yard from them, to discern the sad consequences of so great a folly: but wise men see farther, and reasons of State, and Government are layd much deeper. If abating Usury will really do these feats, I am for reducing it to what you please.

But if upon the whole matter, it will, bona fide, neither treble nor double the yearly fruit and product of our Land, and secure the Capital, so as we may under-sell our Neighbours, and defie [Page 14]all Interlopers; much less assure that our Neighbours will sit still (without countermining, and fighting us at our own wespon) whilst we thus imaginarily prosper, there is little reason to lose a certainty for an uncertainty, quite ruine Trade and Farming (which are now bad enough) by destroying the sure way of bor­rowing, which gives vigour to both, discourage just partimony, take so great a sum out of the purses of sober and provident people (surely this is not to make good the gentle robbery he elsewhere speaks of) either to try hollow experiments, or meerly to repair the mistakes (at best) of other men; which I heartily fear, is, in effect to hazard in many the fulfilling Pharaohs dream a second time, wherein the lean Kine eat up the fat, and yet they them­selves remain'd as poor as before.

His third Proposition examined and an­swered.

THat the restauration and supportation of our decaying Manufactures would be of infinite benefit to this Na­tion is on all hands acknowledged; the which not­withstanding, runs by our own folly, (more ways then one) as well as by the industry of our neighbours into dayly decay: The num­bers the sole Manufacture of Wool has maintain'd is almost incre­dible, many whereof are now Parish charges, either for real want of imployment, their own demerit, or refusing to work for such wages the imployer could afford them.

This decay has been creeping upon us many years by many apparent ways, viz. the Dutch falling upon the same Manufacture to a great height, since the Peace of Munster 1647.

The French, who formerly wore much of our Woollens, have wisely of late made edicts against them (and which is sadder, convey now to us much of their Silk and Woollen Manufactures, [Page 16]to our present reproach and furure ruine.) Our vent into Spain and Portugal is greatly less'ned. So that in part or in whole we have lost three principal Markets. Add to these our deserting our own Drapery, fince the excessive wear of Silks, Chamlets, French Stufs, &c. And would the Parliament be pleas'd to oblige the quick, as already they have done the dead, to the constant wearing of English Cloth, and Stufs, I humbly conceive they might thereby happily obtain their excellent design: For where vent fails, Manufactures must decay, though the first materials be never so cheap, otherwise I cannot see why we should have quick Markets for our Drapery, when Wooll was at twelve and four-10. d. a pound, as within these twelve years, and want vent when it yields but 6. d. or 7. d. a pound, as now it doth: Now if we can neither afford our Wooll at 7. d. the pound, nor yet find sufficient Markets for our Drapery after that rate, I must leave it to any unbias'd man, to judge how far abating Interest two per Cent. will mend the matter.

Yes, saies my Discourser, reduce Ʋsury to the same standard with our neighbours, and we shall revive our dying Manufactures, to employ all our heads, and hands, that no doubt but we shall un­der-sell them all, retrive our loft Markets, weary the Dutch in their industry, make linnen as cheap as French or Flanders, vie with the Swede in his Iron Trade, and oblige them all to take our Com­modities, because they shall be cheaper then their own. All which (without resembling them to Montebanks Bills, or the Devil shearing of Hogs) I flatly deny, (but wish heartily the experi­ment might hold,) and refere the Reader to this, and the prece­dent Chapter for satisfaction.

But granting Usury were now to be abated, to what neigh­bours standard would he have it adjusted: to the French? no sure; they pay more then we; and yet who knows not that the French paying seven per Cent., under-sell us notwithstanding, in all manner of trifles, and Linnen (which is one of our great con­sumptions) at least twelve or fourteen per Cent. besides Fraight, and Custom: no marvel then the Shop is in our light, since we can buy it there, almost as cheap as Flax and Weaving cost us at [Page 17]home, besides spinning; Nay the very French who within these ten years wore mostly our Gloves, are themselves faln on this very Manufacture to that degree, that now they have in a man­ner beat us out of the Hambourgs Trade as to that commodity, meerly by under-selling us therein, to a great proportion, being favoured by their cheap labour onely: now to propose the a­batement of two per Cent. in Usury as a sutable remedy for this mischief, and to ballance the odds in wages, which is above twen­ty per Cent. is like propping up a falling house with Bull-rushes, or the Ren pissing in the Ocean.

Surely then we need not be long in quest after that which gives the forraigner this great advantage over us, since I believe we have as good mechanicks, and as lusty Labourers to dispatch work, as any of them; how can we then avow any other rea­sons then cheapness of provisions, course dyet, and worse drink, parcimonious living and small wages, whereby, through a con­stant practice, most forraigners do that for four pence, which our people will not willingly perform for six pence: how thankful is a Barber at Paris for three solz; while one of ours in London will hardly be content with six pence; and at Brussels a poor man shall bless you more for the fourth part of a farthing (a coyn not known here) then a beggar in England for a penny.

Overvaluing our wages then, as has been already said, to main­tain good eating and drinking, is the capital reason that all for­raigners under-sell us, and ever will (till labour be cheaper;) and this we find true even amongst our selves, where our Nor­then parts by reason of cheapness of victuals, course dyet, and small wages, can profitably under-sell our Southern parts ten or fourteen in the hundred, though Interest be the same; our noble Work-house in Clerken-well is like to run a hazard of de­cay, meerly because it cannot in respect of dear wages, great sallaries to Overseers, and other incident charges, which over­swells the account (not reckoning Interest) afford its Manufa­ctures as cheap as the forraigner.

For example, he that borrows 100. l. at 16. l. 13. s. 4. d. per [Page 18]annum, and haires his workmen at ten pence a day may afford his commodities at the very same rates, as he that borrows his mony gratis, and gives twelve pence a day to his workmen.

Now let him compare the rates of wages amongst us and our neighbours, nay Amsterdam it self, and if he does not find us at least two pence in a shilling (nay six pence more then some) which just answers Interest at 16. l. 13.4. d. dearer then any of them, which must needs operate upon the rates of commodities far more then subduing Interest can possibly remedy, I will give him leave to charge six pence with what crimes he pleaseth. And when he or any man else gives me a sufficient raeson why wages should be dearer within twenty or thirty miles of London then in Holland, I will for ever hereafter hold my tongue.

Will our fuel and labour, which is the main charge of Iron, be ever as cheap as in Swede-land, though we knew not what In­terest meant? my Discourser can at once acknowledge, that the Swede by undervaluing their Wood and work, can afford Iron much cheaper then we, and yet fearing (I suppose) the Reader might take the cheapness of theirr Wood and work to be the reason of the cheapness of their Iron, (which if it be not, I won­der what is, since their Interest is higher then ours,) can direct him to six per Cent. for imformation therein, who knows no more then the man in the Moon. Is not this to direct the blind out of the way; or at best, to send my neighbour on a slevesless errand?

The general conspiracy amongst Artificers and labourers is so apparent, that within these twenty five years the wages of Joy­ners, Bricklayers, Carpenters, &c. are increased, I mean within fourty miles of London, (against all reason and good government) from eighteen and twenty pence a day to 2. s. 6. d. and 3. s. and meer Labourers from ten and twelve pence a day unto sixteen and twenty pence, and this not since the dreadful fire of London onely, but sometime before.

A journey man Shooe-maker has now in London (and propor­tionably [Page 19]in the Country) fourteen pence for making that pair of Shooes, which within these twelve years he made for ten pence, and within these thirty years for seven or eight pence, as several Masters of that Trade assure me; and that their men have but just so much the more to spend in tipple, and remain now poorer then when their wages was less: the like complaint might be justly made of most other sorts of Journey men; whilest in the mean time, wages of most Artificers in Holland, or at least wise the gain made of their dayly labour, have within these douzen years, either by their own prudence to quicken the vent of their commodities, knowing that light gain makes a heavy purse, or by some other accident been less'ned above a fifth part.

Nor has the increase of wages amongst us been occasioned by quickness of Trade, and want of hands (as some do suppose) which are indeed justifiable reasons, but through an exacting humour, and evil disposition in our people (like our Gravesend Water-men, who by some temporary, and mean pretences of the late Dutch war, have rais'd their ferry double to what it was, and finding the sweet thereof keep it up still) that so they may live the better above their station, and work so much the sewer days by how much the more they exact in their wages, else I can­not suppose but that they should be so much the richer by how much the more they have raised the value thereof; which that they are not, I conceive may be justly maintain'd.

I know that want of imployments, and very low wages are the common markes of a poor nation, yet can I not well allow, when I look about me in our Southern parts of England, that dear wages, and scarcity of people, willing to work, are always the signs of a rich and thriving common-Wealth; because I know we have thousands of people miserably poor, yet will not work on such moderate terms the imployers can cheerfully afford them, nor honestly earne six pence, because they fondly imagine their labour worth nine pence, and so sit idle, without considering that something is better then nothing; nor are we without ten thousand youths who are never taught to get a penny, except by [Page 20]some unlawful gaming, to our great reproach: I confess indeed it were happy (as some alledge) that wages were dearer amongst us, and dyet too; provided always the same proceeded from quickness of Trade, that our whole stock of people might be duly imploy'd, and that the rates of our Manufactures would bear in forraign Markets; otherwise the consequence thereof would be most pernicious.

And now whilest our mechanicks (whose numbers are not less­ned) thus frequently raise the rates of their wages, Usury has been reduc'd, provisions grown cheaper, vent for our Manu­factures dayly less'ned through the excessive wages of our Artifi­cers; and they with the whole Nation dwindle into greater po­verty, which sufficiently proves encrease of wages to be a notori­ous prejudice to the Common-wealth, not to be cured by subdu­ction of Interest.

Yea, saith my Discourser, reduce but Interest ( which like a Horse eats day and night, saith he, as if Rents of Houses and Lands did not the same thing) and these people would work cheaper; for do we not see, saith he, that at six per Cent. our poor Artificers, and Tradesman ( though peradventure not one in ten ever borrowed 25. l. on Interest, which at six per Cent. is but a penny a day) without improvidence fail in great numbers. If he knows one pro­vident man undone by Usury, I am sorry for it: I hope 'tis onely a hasty word broke out in passion, and on calmer inquiry may be better inform'd the reasons of such decay: sure I am I know many who now live well, and borrow, who might probably sink, were they deprived of the means of borrowing; and ten Sots (nay twenty) for one sober man that come to beggary; and hardly ever knew just Interest onely, without some worse tricks, undo any man, however fix per Cent. must bear the reproach, and be used like my Ladyes Dog upon an ill savour.

Sir Thomas becomes an Advocate for every man, rather then six per Cent. shall escape, so sharp set is he in the quarrel; the poor Fisher-man who never ow'd above 20. l. on Usury, cannot ne­glect to catch Fish for a forraign Market or a Frydays dinner, [Page 21]but six per Cent. sticks to his Boat like the Fish Remora, and hin­ders his industry; the Dutch under-sell him abroad, and the Butcher at home; it seems the Butcher is a happy man, he either has his flesh dog-cheap, or borrows no money of the Usurer, else how he should under-sell the Fisher-man, who has all for his la­bour, I see not.

And should I now grant that our people were industrious, House-rents easie, wages, and materials as cheap as amongst our Neighbours, and Usury as low as in Holland, yet if our Mer­chants and Traders live at so great a rate as now they do (one of ours worth two or 3000. l. spending more in dyet and apparel in one year then a Hollander of 50000. l.) how is it possible we should thrive on as easie gains as those who spend so much less, and trade so much more?

Peradventure, now it may be replyed that indeed wee see dear wages, and excessive living raiseth the value of our commodities above what our Neighbours can afford them, the more reason we have to bring down Ʋsury, that so we may have the advantage of them by that means to ballance the odds the other way.

Answer: 1. The difference is so great the other way between us and them, that two or three per Cent in Usury will not at all mend the matter, and as good never the whit as never the better.

2. If this way will do, all forraigners will take the same course, rather then lose an inch of Trade.

3. Remove obstructions first from the source and Fountain, which is dear wages, profuse living and the money Trade, and then open the Channel as occasion shall serve.

4. And lastly, such respect must be had to abatement of In­terest, that Trade which (like the Sun) gives at once both life, and lustre, be not totally destroy'd thereby; it being most cer­tain that Trade must cease as soon as sure, and speedy borrow­ing is obstructed, as will be prov'd in examining the seventh [Page 22]Proposition: and if subduing Interest to four per Cent. do not destroy quick borrowing, there is at present a strange hoarding up of money, when many men on good security, and six per Cent. cannot borrow 2. or 300. l. in two months time.

So that, upon the whole matter, 'tis impossible to revive our dying Manufactures, or make the stock, of it cheap, or Market quick, until first we consume more of our own, and less of for­raign Manufactures, spend nothing from abroad, whereof we have the like at home, subdue our wages, retrench our excesse in dyet and apparel, Traffick with the forraigner Ware for Ware, and keep our money at home; as for abatement of Interest (the great Diana of my Discourser) it may do like a chip in Pottage, or operate at best like those vulgar Medicines prescrib'd by every good womnn for Ague and Toothach; do one man no good, and another much mischief.

And now waving the main Argument of the lawfulness of In­terest, let me ask my Discourser a sober question or two: who shall judge what moderate benefit the borrower may cheerfully afford the Lender? the Lender? that's unequal, Interest may sway him: the Borrower? he's a party also: Besides it may be alledged (as a great man has already done) that the same standard cannot serve indifferently for the Gentleman and Trader, Sir. F. Bacon whereby they may cheer­fully afford the like premium: the Gentleman commonly bor­rows with design to make no great advantage; the Trader has a lucrative calling, shall he pay no more then the Gentleman?

After all, if my Discourser would have his Neighbour who is sober, and provident (for none else are Lenders, nor all those neither) keep his money constantly by him to accommodate the Gentleman, Merchant, Farmer, Artificer, &c. for the quick­ning of Trade and Commerce, run hazards as great as an East-India voyage, disserve (it may be) his own occasions, go to Law to recover his own, and oft times lose it, let him by way of gra­titude and requital, willingly allow such liberal reward as the Lender, who runs all the risque, may cheerfully afford to [Page 23]pleasure him in his extremity, without any indirect or un-Gentleman-like dealing.

His fourth Proposition examined and answered.

ANd in good time, for we are heavily charg'd with them; but he that reads the two precedent Chap­ters, will find little hopes to be eased by the wayes proposed, or that our Lands shall be upon any great improve­ments, and the capitall stock secured; and as little hopes to have our moneys and fruit of our Lands put forth to Manufa­ctures, whereby our idle hands shall be set on work, as long as over-valuing our labour renders our commodities so much dearer than those of our neighbours, who have been ever carefull to prevent encrease of wages, knowing thereon only depends the cheap sale of their Manufactures.

And now, as I cannot but lament, with my worthy Dis­courser, on the one hand, the inefficacy of some of our Laws concerning the poor, in not preventing, rather than correct­ing enormities; so on the other hand, I cannot but blame the male-administration of many good Laws we have in this parti­cular: else what means those swarms of lewd and idle per­sons, [Page 24]who prowl about in every part of the Kingdome? or those gangs of Gipsies that appear amongst us at noon­day?

My Discourser brings in the Beggar, saying, No man has hired him, but ask his neighbour (who is more to be belie­ved) and he will tell you, he alwayes was a lazy and lewd companion, and would not be hired: next he introduceth the Hedge-breakers, and Wood-stealers, alleadging, The wea­ther is cold, fuell dear, and they know not how to earn a penny; but the truth is, they are idle, and delight in those sort of practices, and to my knowledge some of them might earn a groat honestly, whilest they are getting two pence by this lewd trade: then comes in the Thief, to whom my Discour­ser allows the stale plea of misfortune, which let him talk of, as he pleaseth, we know his greatest mis [...]ortunes are his vices, and that he was first a wicked profuse person, and rather than dispose himself to live suitable to his present condition, will venture a hanging. Besides these (who are the vermine of the Commonwealth) we have hous'd poor, who secretly re­lying on Parish-maintenance, as their main reserve, are too proud to beg, too lazy to work, when 'tis either too hot or too cold, and will choose their own time and wages, or you may do your work your self; but if you have any charity to bestow, they are ready to receive it, and will spend it in better bread and tipple than he that gave it, hating to pinch when they have it, and when they have it not; and when sickness comes the Parish is sure to hear of them.

Were our poor industrious and frugall, and wages reasona­ble, which, I fear, will never be, untill the abused crutch of Statute-maintenance be rescinded, or better regulated, they could not want imployment, though Usury were at 8. per Cent. nor fall into extream poverty, but by abundance of children, long sickness, or the like, in which sence only they are God Almighty's poor; the rest, which are three times the number, are of their own making; whereof I have so many instances amongst my own neighbours, (how well the good [Page 25]husband lives on the same (or worse) trade, which suffers the idle and drunken person to fall into extream poverty) that I am perswaded few men come into great poverty but by their own idle, irregular, and wicked courses; as either by cramming all immoderately into their bellies, or at once both losing their time, and spending their moneys in Ale-houses, gaming, drabbing &c. resolving (as some of them have not stuck to say it) the Parish shall be their Hospitall at last; like young Heirs, whose extravagancies are too often fomented by assurance of future estates; and so make an ill use of a well-intended Law; else it were not easie to believe that rationall creatures should pull poverty so wilfully on them; as I am sure by wofull experience we in Kent generally find; and particu­larly my own poor Parish, where, within these thirty five years, meerly in regard of idleness trusting to certain relief, we have encreas'd for maintenance of our poor from 6. or 7. l. per annum to above 100. l. The late Royall Aid, which was so great a Tax, charging us yearly but with 89. l. 12. s. 8. d.

And now who can but admire, that whilest our poor are thus lazy, wastfull, and disorderly, that the Dutch and Wal­loons, who for just an 100. years have inhabited amongst us, and live under the same Laws, should notwithstanding by some innate vertue, or peculiar rules of their own, preserve themselves in their ancient simplicity, be so remarkably indu­strious, that to our great benefit (as if God would bless eve­ry action of that wise and great Queen Elizabeth, who setled these people amongst us, anno 1569. upon the barbarity of the Duke of Alva in the Netherlands) every Town where they inhabit, as Colchester, Canterbury, Sandwitch, Maid­stone, Southampton, &c. are by their industry and Manufa­ctures made the trading and thriving places of the Nation, and so regular and frugall in their living, that, as few are poor amongst them, so I think it will be hard to produce one of those people begging at our doors; much less do any of their poor come upon our Parishes for relief, and yet at the same time they do contribute to maintain ours.

So that upon the whole matter, it is not subduction of Inte­rest that can relieve our poor, but the reduction of them to their former industry, wages, and moderate way of living, that so they may be more chearfully imployed in Town and Countrey, without turning charity into legall oppression.

His fifth Proposition examined and an­swered.

OUr Fathers could count one, two, and three, and some of them pay 10. per Cent. for money, and had sons and daughters too to provide for, and yet suffered thriving Timber to stand to its full growth, (which is all that can be desired from the wisest and richest men) and thrive themselves by a happy conduct: we, now Usury is at 6. per Cent. pluck up, even our thriving Timber by the roots: was that preservation, and this devastation, in respect of high or low Interest, or from a provident temper in the one, and destructive humour in the other? Had my Discourser duely considered the different practice, he might have made some question (though now he does not) whether many Gentle­men encouraged by small Usury, would either suffer their thriving Timber to stand, or plant new groves for posterity; nor can he well hope, that any thing, but severe Laws, can make half the Nation wise in this particular. Our best Laws for preserving Timber were exhibited, when prodigious plenty, and little use thereof, seem'd to defie all future scar­city, so immensely carefull were our Ancestors for its preser­vation: had this wisdome been improv'd in our Fathers [Page 27]dayes, when, within these 50. or 60. years they began to build in a large manner, and the same been prosecuted by us, by providing new Laws, as well for propagation, as preser­vation, as our old Laws become scanty in their design, through a generall devastation, we might have had some mil­lions of thriving trees more than now we have, and thereby secured our posterity from the danger approaching: Trees are like men, if we have not a young brood, death will soon un­people a Nation. 'Tis not plucking up, but not planting, that hurts the publick, and must end in her destruction, and a spirit of supineness, ill steerage and penury, and not Usury, that hinders such excellent undertakings; else I cannot ima­gine, why our best buildings, our greatest nurseries both for fruit and timber, and generally all our improvements, should have been carried on when money was at 8. or 10. per Cent. or dearer, and yet all run to ruine and destruction now mo­ney is at 6. nor can I believe that 4. per Cent. can cure us herein: and therefore to me it seems most absolutely need­full, to lay all men under a severe Law for propagating of tim­ber, over and besides our present Laws relating thereunto; a short modell whereof I here offer to consideration.

That every Proprietor, &c. of 25. acres of Land, and so proportionably for a greater or lesser quantity, be oblig'd to plant, either in one entire piece of ground, or else dispersed­ly, at the option of the Planter, (his ground being proper for it) once in every five years, 25. young Elm, Ash, Walnut, Chesnut, and Oak especially, as is most agreeable to the soyl, of the best and likeliest for timber, and the same preserve, maintain, and supply from time to time, to the intent the number of 25. trees may in every five years be nurst up on every 25. acres of Land; all which numbers shall be preserv'd untill they be at least ten inches diameter, unless in the mean time the top boughs decay, after which the tree never prospers; nor shall the Oak be lop't or shrou'd at any time.

And in case the Planter shall think fit at any one time to set [Page 28]Acorns, or Nuts, or plant so many trees as may answer the number to be planted in 10.15. or greater number of years, it shall be accounted a compliance with the Law. With such other farther directions, and provisoes, and under such in­spections and penalties as Authority shall think fit.

That this or the like course being duely observ'd, would bring mutuall benefit to the Commonwealth, and Planter, I refer my self to those, whose ingenuity and publick spirits have oblig'd to planting timber on proper soyl: especially I commend the Reader to the worthy John Rodds, Esquire, near Excester, who some 18. years ago sowed 30. acres of Land with Acorns, as a nursery for timber only, and is now (I hope) assured (besides the great content of seeing his la­bour prosper) that his grand-child may reap from thence some thousands of pounds worth of timber. If this or some such course be not speedily taken, farewell timber, trade, and security after an age or two; a miserable progress where­in we have already made, and that only since Usury has been subdu'd, which surely could not have been made worse, had money continued at 10. per Cent. which strongly implyes Usury not guilty therein.

I know not how well we are vers't in Arithmetick, (though my Discourser concludes our knowledge great therein) but our skill, me thinks, appears very little, to live beyond our estates, run into debt, and then cut down improving timber to pay the reckoning; and which is almost as bad, either neglect, or not be able, to plant more, without borrowing of the Usurer. Could men, either before, or in their extra­vagancies, ruminate upon the worth of the Capitall, as my prudent Discourser does upon the consequence of Interest, or could we practise that reasonable and easie rule in Oeconomy, of cutting our coat according to our cloth, I presume we should soon find our selves in a more temperate and richer world, than so improvidently (as he alleadges) to strip our estates to the last stick, either to pay debts, or marry our daughters.

And now admitting it prudence to preserve our Timber, un­till we had sufficient nurseries of young Trees, I cannot see why we should so dreadfully apprehend the sending to our neighbours, for Timber, now money is at six per Cent. and yet admit (for so my Discourser does) we might fetch it from thence were money at three or four per Cent. and build for most of Christendom, as the Hollander does. Is it sending the principal abroad makes it so dangerous that 'tis a question whether that, or London could best be spared? why that's the same thing, whether we lose the Capital at three or six per Cent. or else my Discourser has spun the thrid of his argument so fine my pur-blind reason cannot discern it.

To conclude, I will ask but one question, whether height of Interest, or our urgent occasions in point of building cau­seth the destruction of our Timber. I must not believe the augmenting of our Fleets, and Navigation falls in by chance (like the cursed Instruments of Powder and Guns) or that the felling of Timber to pay debts puts us dayly upon building, but building puts us upon felling of Timber, so that whether we be in debt or no, or Interest low or high, our occasions must be supply'd either at home or from abroad; if from home, down goes Timber though Interest be subdued, if from abroad we must have it what ever it cost.

So that upon the whole matter, it appears that our disorder, and ill conduct has hurried us into debt, and our debts have at once put us upon felling our thriving Timber, and into an in­capacity of planting more; of which distempers it is scarce imaginable, that subduction of Interest will ever cure us, as is alledged; since nothing but our better conduct, and frugality can occasion planting faster then plucking up, and thereby pre­vent the fatal destruction of our Timber.

His sixth Proposition examined and an­swered.

WHat improvident actions (besides the calamities of the late ill times) have contracted great debts upon many of our Gentry, &c. is too apparent for any one to cover with Fig-leaves. The cessation of Hos­pitality, the ruine of Estates, &c. is not (as is insinuated) pri­marily to be charg'd upon incumbrances of Estates (which sel­dom fall from the sky) but to ill conduct, excess, supineness, and these other practices whereof we may justly be ashamed; to these we truly owe our debts, and incumbrances, so much cry'd out upon, the decay of Hospitality, the eclipse of honour, degenerating our blood, and supplanting many of our noble and ancient Families: and sure I am, nothing more argues a Nation ripe for destruction, then intemperance, corruption of manners, and exorbitancy of expence in all degrees of men: now a receit (whereof my Discourser speaks) that would cure us, and secure the Nation would be worth getting.

And no great pains, though Sir Thomas wincks and will not see't, but cries out shame to Usury, and six per Cent. He that adjust's his expences by the right rule of Oeconomy, may main­tain a just Hospitality, and bid defiance to the Usurer, and his Broker too; he that slights it, reduce Usury to what you please, shall soon find himself in an uneasie condition.

Indeed I believe there are many worthy men that know the rule of frugality, and approve; it but custom, emulation, the mode of the times, their own generous easie or careless hearts render it impracticable, and therefore I conceive, my Dis­courser, who is himself a wise and provident man, ought nei­ther to have furnish'd Gentlemen with arguments for their mistakes, nor put them into so desperate an opinion of their condition as to insinuate, nay daringly to maintain, that such who have once less'ned their Estates, (especially if they have Families) can ever live within compass afterward; whereas the truth is, he that has less'ned his Estate must better Husband the remains, according to that sure rule of Seneca, quod cessat reditu, ex frugalitate suppletur, that which becometh defective in our revenue is to be supplied by frugality and thrift, or he may come to beggary at last.

But it seems to bode ill, that Sir Thomas who for fruga­lity may be to others a Pattern, should yet proclaime to the world he's not in love with thrift, although it be so necessary to our subsistance; yet do I hope no prudent man will be the less in love therewith, (I mean a necessary and just thrift, without which we should have but few solvent men.) Thrift, who can live long and happily without it? its actions are of a true temperature, 'tis the corner-stone that keeps together the whole building; the safe boundary, beyond which are precipieces and confusion; one of Cato's best revenues; a ver­tue neer Allied to liberality, and the head-spring thereof; for none without it can oft be bountiful.

And for the question my Discourser put in case parcimonie were admitted, what shall become of his Majesties revenue. &c. I refer the Reader to the Preface for answer.

But that our debts may be payd without this sneaking fru­gality, hatefull to this generous age, Calias sobriety and good conduct, I recommend nothing else) he is sure ( [...] [...]st) that reducing Interest will do the feat: a pretty way of encouraging men to run into debt, under pretence of shewing [Page 32]a way how to get out again, and not a pin the worse: this is to touch pitch, and not be defiled: the rich secret vein found out by J. C's own sagacity, and more fully discovered by my worthy Friend and Discourser, for the consolation of all such who cannot keep within compass: for, saith he, he is confident, (and confidence you know doth much) he that has 600. l. per annum, and owes 3. or 4000. l. may readily clear himself with the sale of 200. l. per annum, (nothing more sure) and the remaining part, viz. 400. l. per annum, shall in a short time advance to as much in reall value and purchase, as the whole would have yeelded before; nothing more unlikely. Credat Judaeus appella, non ego: he that believes this, may the next time swallow a Gudgeon.

If by reall value, he means, the improvement of Rent, shall advance from 400. l. to 600. l. per annum, I suppose eve­ry mans reason may abundantly satisfie him to the contrary, besides what I have offered in the precedent Chapters: but if by reall value, he means an advancement of years in point of purchase, so that 400. l. per annum shall upon subduction of Interest, sell for as much as 600. l. per annum will now yield; I conceive, examples in this kind are the best arguments, and that which holds true at one time, and in one Countrey, may rationally be supposed to hold true at another time, and in a­nother Countrey: thus experience may best reform notions, and practice sometimes regulate demonstrations.

The Hollander then has found no such improvements of Land in purchase, upon falling of Interest; for when money was at 6. or 7. per Cent. (as within these 35. years) Land there yeelded 35. or 40. years purchase; and now Interest being fallen to 3. or 4. per Cent. it sells for little or nothing more: where note, that Land is so dear with them, in re­gard of their infinite stock of money, smallness of their Coun­trey, and miraculous numbers of men, there being scarce six feet square of Land for every inhabitant.

In France, where money is at 7. per Cent. those Lands te [...]m'd noble, as giving titles of honour, &c. are worth 34. [Page 33]or 35. years purchase; and the vulgar or ordinary Lands 25. years value, the revenue whereof answers but 4. per Cent. the reason of which I shall not now enquire into, more than that Interest of money exceeds the purchase of Land there, as by good reason it should, in recompence of the hazard of lending; and also observe, there is no certain method and proportion kept between Interest of money, and purchase of Land, but that other locall and peculiar reasons operate every where, more than the consideration of high or low Interest, other­wise every man might conclude that when money yeelds so much, Land must needs sell accordingly; which is the great mistake these Gentlemen run upon: for have we our selves been any more than our neighbours sensible of improvements of Land in purchase, proportionably to the severall retrench­ments of Usury; which when it was at 10. per Cent. Land was worth (as severall discreet and aged persons inform me) 15. or 16. years purchase: when money was at 8. per Cent. (with­in which time we were in the greatest prosperity this Nation ever yet enjoyed, Gold being equally plentifull to Silver, and both greatly abounding) Land yeelded but 17. or 18. years purchase, and not frequently 20. unless from the considerati­on of scituation, timber, or some great conveniency; but ne­ver did pretend to rise in the least upon the reduction of Inte­rest to 6. per Cent. which by my Discourser's and J. C's rule should have started to 24. or 25. years purchase: but as we have declin'd in our prosperity since, and our treasure wast­ed, and convey'd abroad, to pay the debt made yearly by [...]ur unhappy expence of forraign growths and Manufactures, [...]ver and besides our native commodities exported, and a su [...] ­cession of Taxes great and heavy, like the waves of the sea, [...]nd our Landlords in debt, and many borrowers, and few [...]nders, Land is fallen to 16. or 17. years purchase, where 'tis [...]kely to continue for ought I see, (though interest were re­ [...]c'd) till we have more money, and fewer borrowers, and [...]ss Land to sell; for if subduing Interest would have done the [...]sired feat, 'tis strange to me, that falling from 10. to 6. per [...]ent. which is almost one half, should not appear ere now so [...]sibly, as to stop the mouthes of all gainsayers.

But should I grant that we have receiv'd adv [...]ntage, by bringing Interest from 10. to 8. and again from 8. to 6. per Cent. (which solemnly I cannot app [...]ehend, viis & modis) [...] therefore follow th [...]t reducing it to 3. or 4. will be yet greater, and f [...]rther [...]dvantage to us: this is but ill arguing from one extream to another, since too much severity in a Law may do much more hurt on the one hand, then good on the other; like an indiscreet School-ma [...]er that with immoderate whipping slupesies that boy which otherwise might have been docile enough, or like an unskilful Gardiner, who instead of pruning the Tree, lops off all the fruitful branches; moderate heat makes the sweetest m [...]ult; excess commonly does advan­tage a few, and hurts the generality: a Law is most grateful when it suits with the several Interests, and greatest concerns of the people, seasonable to the time and concurring circumstances; otherwise it will succeed no better then with the Asse in the I able under her several burthens of Salt and Wooll, were our ladings and concerns all alike, and had we no body to provide for but the borrowing Gentlemen, the dispute might easily be reconciled; but the lending Gentlemen, the Widdows, Or­phans, and impotent persons are too great a number not at all to be regarded; And Trade especially, which is the great con­cern of the Nation, must likewise be secured, which certainly cannot be by lessning Interest to a trifle, in regard the hopes of sure borowing will be utterly lost; unless we were (as they are in Holland) better provided, that so by the Law of plenty we might be sure always to be readily supply'd: Sir F. Bacon conceiv'd, and rightly, that the Usurer would sooner descend from ten to eight in the hundred then give over his Trade, and go from certain gain to gains of hazard; for, saies he, where the abatement is but small (and the reward tolerable) it will no whit discourage the Lender; which is a full concession, that where the abatement is great, and the reward mean (at four per Cent.) it will altogether destroy borrowing. Three or four per Cent. will certainly do as much hurt as peradventure some imagine six or eight has done good, or ten per Cent. mischief; for as at ten few would borrow, but upon sure and urgent oc­casions (and yet so far I believe it did good, by keeping some [Page 35]sort of men in awe) so none will lend at three or four but upon some other special consideration, whereby all Commerce must necessarily decay, and Trade (to the infinite losse of the Nation) ingros't by a few who have prodigious sums at com­mand, to the excluding of all small-stock'd Traders, and young beginners with little money t thus Trade would slyly and cunningly be betray'd into the hands of a few, by a fawning salutation and a kiss: this is so to order matters, that craft might suck the breasts of industry with a witness; and draw more milk from thence in one day, then a Son of idleness gets thence in seven years; like an old Cat, which laps more milk then half a douzen young kits.

'Tis a pretty and almost contradictory observation of my Discourser in his Preface, that the Junto at Westminster, anno 1652. did at once reduce Interest from eight to six per Cent. with intent (saith he) which I do not allow for granted, to bring it yet lower, and yet designed no good to the Land-Lord thereby: it seems (even by his own confession) they con­ceiv'd reducing Usury to three or four per Cent. would not double, much less treble the real value, and purchase of Land, for if they had I verily believe they would never have done it; since it had, been enough to have restored the ruin'd Fortunes of our Nobles and Gentry, which, as things then stood, I suppose that power had reason to have supprest; and nurst up a new Brood.

But I am about to believe the matter is not much, whether I and rise or no, or Trade be ingros't by a few; if Interest down (which was, is, and ever will be grievous to needless borrowers) we that pay a 100. and 20. per annum to the Usu­rer, shall then be sure to pay for the same principal, but 60. or at most 80. l. per annum, and that's gain enough, consider­ing how easily we shall obtain it; and if we keep our Lands, the Rents will answer more then Interest and Taxes too: [Page 36]thus might we sleep as sweetly in debt as on Bed of Down: This is in truth one of the main things in Prospect and hidden vein, not so much found out as mannag'd by admirable Saga­city as well by the crafty as by the borrowing men, under the title (I love them so welll, I am sorry the project will not answer the expression) of the greatest blessing to King, and Kingdom.

And now, perceiving my Discourser is for selling, and being out of debt, I must acknowledge it the best Proposition in his Book, and not run hazards by Tenants, pay Taxes of all sorts for what is really none of his, and be a sort of Bayly to the savage Usurer; for if Interest were at four per Cent. a Gentle­man that should lye long, and greatly in debt, should scarcely thrive either in Estate or credit: And let me presume to give him this advice: (because I both honour and pity all worthy persons, whose generosity, good nature, or misfortunes have cast behind hand) that when he is once out of debt, he strive by all possible means to live within compass of whatsoever re­mains, (let my Discourser say what he please to the contrary) lest a worse thing happen unto him; whilest in the mean time six per Cent. or three per Cent. or any body else, who lives regularly, and within his tether, shall in conclusion appear to be the wise-man.

So that, upon the whole matter, nothing can pay the debts of our Gentry, but timely sales and better conduct; which infal­libly shall without the severity of a Law invest their next heires into better estates then now they have: And for our Lands, if we would have a greater value put upon them in point of purchase, the onely way is to keep out of debt; that so a farm may not be purchasable in twelve months time, and then not out of necessity, but at the Option of the Vendor; for no­thing is more true then that the scarcity of a good commodity [Page 37]puts an estimation and price upon it, which, by the rule of con­traries, is the main reason our Lands are at this day so under­valued.

His seventh Proposition examined and answered.

IN the fourth Chapter it was alledged, subduing Interest would set all heads and hands awork upon improvements, Trade, &c. and in this, he supposeth there will be few Len­ders at the rate proposed: how moneys now will be so easie to be borrowed that even the Lender (contrary to the custom of all Contracts, wherein the Hirer and purchaser bears all char­ges) shall pay the Broker and Conveyancer, will be worth the knowledge of such who delight even in the most abstruse spe­culations.

Why, if you will please to believe my Discourser, subduing Usury ('tis even pitty it were not reduc'd to a Welch-man's button, rather then hinder so many good things) shall so in­crease our Trade, that in spite of the world we shall so under­sell [Page 39]our Neighbours, that all man-kind shall buy of us, and we will vent more then bring back to consume, and the ballance of our Trade shall be answered by the importation of Bullion, and then we shall tumble in money; which I confess I heartily wish to see.

This Trade (saies he) must needs make our Lands highly improve both in annual profits and purchase. Borrowers (saith he) will be few, either no man (say I) will be so mad as to lend at that premium, or we shall be so rich, wise, and in­dustrious, no man I warrant you will be so vain as run into debt, live beyond his bounds, drink, drab, or dice. Exigents (saith he) will be fewer; we shall so guide our affairs (say I) that we need not to fear surprises, our conduct hitherto hath been so remarkable. Debtors (saith he) will pay all they owe, Mortgages, Statutes (with all their cursed gang) shall be can­cel'd; though debtors, it may be (say I) are not worth half they owe. Debtors (saith he) shall no more cousen their Cre­ditors; the world will no doubt (say I) grow honest, when the premium is so reasonable, 'tis pity to deceive the Usurer: And who can tell, but high Interest, which is no better then In­justice and oppression (as my Discourser hath it) though the Law tolerate it, be the secret reason why so many debtors de­feat their creditors, since to deceive the unjust and injurious is no deceit, or may at worst passe for a Doctrine of probabi­lity.

A golden age no doubt: pray God these goodly promises prove not like Mountebanks Bills. Had my Discourser been of Counsel against eight per Cent. no doubt but we should have had all these fair advantages promised upon reducing Interest unto six per Cent. and yet who can justly maintain we received any, except those who were at that time actually in debt.

Land it did not improve, either in rent or purchase; as has been already shewed; Manufactures it did not revive or ad­vance, but they have certainly decay'd since; and Trade (I mean a right stated Trade) it hath not quicken't, for that was [Page 40]more vigorous thirty years ago then now.

Much less has subduing Interest prevented our Gentry from running into debt, but rather incouraged them to be bold therein; since the sharp tooth of Usury has been fil'd out.

The fear of a loath som disease rather then virtue, may deter some men from vitious practices: I dare avow that since In­terest became so tame, we have two Gentlemen now in debt, for one that was before; many of whom have borrowed and squandered away the principal, judging six per Cent. could do them no great hurt; and 'tis this number of borrowers, and no other reason else, which has prepared the matter in En­gland for an abatement of Interest, J. C. would have us wink and fancy something else; but tell us he will not: Interest at eight and ten per Cent. was a formidable beast, and none durst play with it; few then lay soaking deeply in debt, unless the Trader who made greater profit, or the thriving purchaser, to answer the later part of a payment.

And now admitting Usury reduced (as God forbid but it should, would it produce the promised felicities; and God for­bid that it should, if it be onely to repair the errours of other men) in which sence it can never be welcome to our men of honour though in debt) since it is onely to rob Peter to pay Paul, and as bad as stealing Sheep, and giving the Trotters to the poor for Gods-sake, (as the Spaniards speak) will it there­fore follow that most men will be desirous to borrow, be it to squander, Trade, or improve; and will it therefore be that be­cause many will desire to borrow, and few inalyn'd to lend (as my Discourser himself supposeth) but almost all will be imploy­ing their own money upon some laudable improvement, that money will be so easily borrowed as is alledged.

Sir Francis Bacon saith, [in his Essaies,] it is a vanity to con­ceive that there would be borrowing without profit, that is a proportionable reward for the disservice the Lender oft times gives himself, and hazard he runs. It is impossible to con­ceive [Page 41](saies the same great man, whom all the world knows was no Usurer) the number of inconveniences that will ensue, if borrowing were cramped (which if it would not be at three or four per Cent. cut off its legs the next bout) there must be therefore, saies he, incouragement proposed that monyed men may be invited to lend to the Merchant, Farmer, &c. for the continuing, and quickning of Trade and industry. Now my Discourser (far different from this great Oracle of reason) ar­gues, as if he meant to husse the Usurer out of his Interest; the Usurer saies, rather then venture at three or four per Cent. he will keep his money, and once in a year get more by lurching, (for that will be the Trade I dare prophesie, when sure borrow­ing is ham-string'd) my Discourser tells him 'tis a Bugbear, and scar-Crow, and that he fears it not, and that he will lend and pay the Broker and Conveyancer too; (else the next time I can tell him; he is like to have the sin of Onan lay'd to his charge) and if he be not so contented, my Discourser hopes he may in time come to lend (even the rich) in pure charity, and thus Hectors the poor man out of his Interest, as the borrower too often defrauds him of his principle.

Again, Interest thus lessned, I believe few will sit down so contented, having been used to greater profit, but will rush up­on several projects and undertakings, which for want of due skill to mannage may probably redown'd to the equal hurt both of themselves and Common-wealth; whilest in the mean time it may be justly feared experienced men in Trade and Til­lage may miscarry in their well-stated affairs for want of mo­ney, which before such abatement they might liberally have taken up at a days warning; for as the great Sir Francis Bacon (in his Essaies) wisely observes, were it not for this (sure and) easie way, borrowing upon Interest (which then was ten per Cent.) mens necessities would draw upon them a most sudden undoing, in that they would be forced to sell their means (be it Land or Goods) far underfoot; the greatest part of Trade be­ing driven by young men with hired money, and so whereas Usury doth but gnaw upon them (and that but gently now at six per Cent.) bad Markets would swallow them up; judging it [Page 42]better to give 5. l. for the loan of 100. l. for six months, and stay the season for the best Markets, then sell their concerns at twenty per Cent. loss to these Lurchers that will lye at catch to take such advantages, (this is to such the breasts of industry till blood come) which will certainly appear more visible then than now, if you put a general stop and dryness upon bor­rowing; to avoy'd which I am sure my Merchant, Farmer, or Artificer, will with all his heart give after the rate of six per Cent. for three or six months, and pay both Broker and Con­veyancer too, what ever my Discourser can alledge to the con­trary.

And now I will present the, Reader with an Objection made by my Discourser, and his courteous answer thereunto.

Object. But what will become of Widows, Orphans, and other impotent person (and I may add younger Brothers and Sisters brought up to nothing, who are a vast number in the Nation, who want judgement, or faculty to Trade or purchase.

His answer is, There are likewise Widows, &c. that have Lands, who betwixt the fall and loss of Rent, and deduction of Taxes do now suffer more (I fear) in proportion (what then sinking one third of the Interest of moneyed Widows, &c.) and yet who ever dream't of providing for them: and thus are they an­swered with a short and comfortless question. But pray whose fault was it that those poor Landed Widows, &c. were no more considered.

If this (saies he) be not an answer to their importunities, supposing they might be earnest for their bread) they, mean­ing the moneyed Widows, &c. must know, that it is fair for them if they be not oppressed: which I perceive by his Do­ctrine can scarcely be untill they are defeated of their princi­pall, reducing Interest to three or four per Cent. might have a lively resemblance of it, especially when more are likely to re­ceive evil then good thereby.

Yea, but the Widow, &c. who would not willingly be op­prest, should not (save [...] my Discourser) think of oppressing others, which they certainly do, by exacting more profit for the use of money than either Land or Trade will regularly bear; or as J.C. saith, in capitall letters, (thinking to have riveted the Argument) idleness should not suck the breasts of indu­stry.

Truly I believe oppression a great and crying sin, which the just Judge will one day severely punish; and that there are a great many sorts of oppressions; amongst the rest, this [...]s one, that whilest I endeavour to make my own burthen as [...]ight as possibly I can, I care not who is sunk with the weight of it, so I can pretend any excuse, or cry up for the Common­wealth, with the like sincerity as the Silver-Smiths did for Diana; otherwise I see not why present Interest (which with us is the lowest by Law in Europe) should be call'd oppressi­on, or a burthen greater than Land or Trade will regularly bear, unless it be because one sort of (many) borrowers say so; which if that be a sufficient proof, I would then ask my Discourser, if either he, or any other Landlord, will sink his Rent, meerly because his Tenants complain of hard penny­worths.

That Trade will regularly bear present Usury, who has not observ'd that the carefull managers thereof have had a thriving time of it, (witness the prodigious riches of London) untill the unlucky Dutch War, the dreadfull conflagration of our Mother-City, and the pernicious money-trade into for­raign parts, whereby I verily believe, we have been, and shall be (if not prevented by raising our Coyn, or by the ho­nest Clippers thereof) more impoverish'd than by the other two: nor does our Traders yet imploy their industry with­out very competent gains, as may be conjectured from their plentifull way of living; nor did our Farmers sowe in fear, or reap in sorrow, untill dear Rents, excessive Wages, hea­vy Taxes, and very bad Markets, did all confederate to swal­ [...]ow them up.

And for the Land, which of the owners thereof owes 100▪ l. for which he payes 6. per annum, but may readily pay it by the sale of 6. l. per annum Land, and have something over be­sides; and if so, I am then to seek where the burthen and ir­regularity lyes, though my Discourser please himself by main­taining the contrary: besides, I would rather have 5. l. 5. s. 1▪ year in Land once surely setled, whereby I should only ven­ture my Rent, which is commonly secured by a stock on the ground, than 100. l. in money at 6. per Cent. sometimes tumbled and tost at Usury, like a Ship in a tempest, and ut­terly lost, and sometimes remain useless by me like a vessel be-calm'd, whilest the Landlord seldom runs the least ha­zard, especially in respect of the Capitall; and gain is alwayes expected and allowed, proportionable to the Risque and greatness of the adventure; which by the arts and iniquity of this depraved age, is so considerable, that with due reverence to Solomon the wise, I may invert his own words, and affirm, that lenders now are servants to the borrowers, and common­ly are right heartily glad when they have recovered their own again.

After all, if such who complain most of high Interest, and who (God knows) have the least reason to be in the Usu­rers Books, would put on a comely thrift, and avoid borrow­ing, (for these set up half the Usurers, as well as Taverns in the Nation) my Usurer would soon either lend his money on lower terms without a Law, to such who have laudable occa­sions for it, or else imploy it himself to his own and the Com­monwealths advantage, which is all can be reasonably desired from him.

As for idleness sucking the breasts of industry, (as J.C. hath it) 'tis no more applicable to lending money upon a va­luable consideration, to them who by industry and skill live thereon, (why others should borrow any great summes, I apprehend not, and wish we had a Law to prevent it, whereby men might at once be kept within compass, a thou­sand mischiefs prevented, and Traders supply'd with money [Page 45]enough) than to my Landlords hiring his Farm to the labori­ous Husbandman, or to my building and hiring a Ship at a dear rate, to those who occupie their business amidst the ter­rours of the deep, who cannot raise a penny to pay his Rent without great toyl and care, whilest the Landlord lyes on the bed of idleness, sucks the breast of industry, and goes away with all the profit; and yet who knows not, that it would turn to the infinite prejudice of the Nation, should all the Landlords in England manage their severall Farms by their own servants: On the other hand, I conceive it is neither ho­nest nor safe, that one, call'd a child of industry, should suck the breasts of idleness, without giving the nurse reasonable sa­tisfaction, lest peradventure the next child that wants, starves in the street.

Here I will answer a more materiall Objection than any I have yet seen in Print, made me by a Gentleman-borrower, yet no friend to subduing Usury, and wonders that any man will lend but upon a good pawn 100. l. for 6. l. premium, considering the vast summes that are daily lost.

Object. May not a man use his own money, and make 6. per Cent. of it, better than he that borrows can first make 6. l. to pay Interest, and then get something over and besides for a lively­ [...]ood; and so end all disputes about Interest.

Answ. 1. This were very true, admitting all men were of [...]quall brains and education, to traffick in one sort or other, [...]hich is not reasonable to imagine.

2. If every man i [...]ployed his own stock, it would be im [...] ­ossible for poor ingenious beginners to borrow, to enter up­ [...]n trade; and how many of those people by help of borrow­ [...]g, become in time excellent members in the Common­ [...]ealth, is daily seen.

3. 'Tis much better for the publick that experienced Tra­ [...]ers hire money, and imploy it, than sit still, whilest com­merce [Page 46]merce is manag'd by the unskilfull; which caus'd his Majesty to complain in the preamble of his Proclamation some two years ago, concerning the Canary Merchants, alleadging th [...] unexperienced men had spoil'd that trade.

4. In all Trades there is a great mystery, which is not fully apprehended by two in three, educated therein, how th [...] shall we suppose this secret should be found out by then who are forc'd upon trade, not by their proper genius, but by subduing Usury.

Lastly, There is that vast difference in skill and conduct amongst men, that one will easier make 14. per Cent. in traf­fick, than another raise 6.

His eighth Proposition examined and answered.

I Hope, 'tis an incling (and not Prophetick saying) invented at first by such who wish the work may not prosper, that the rebuilding of London will undo more then the burning thereof has: for if serene times succeed, I doubt not but the Builders (or at least their posterity) will be so fully recom­penced as well by profit as conveniency, security and beauty, that by a happy Omen, I hope I may invert the jyngle by as­serting, that in conclusion there may be more gainers by re­building of London, then there were losers by burning of it.

The present Interest of money (admitting much were bor­rowed) can be no just scar-crow to the Builders, since all Buil­ders I have yet converst with (being of that number my self) may have eight, nine or ten per Cent. and very good Rents for their grounds besides.

As for those who are to build in the worst, and by-places, they are to build the meanest Houses, and so what they fall short in Rent will be sav'd in Building: besides 'tis not to be doubted but materials, and workmen may be much cheaper when the capital parts of the City are rebuilt, to the great in­couragement of Builders in by-places, which are likely to be last built.

And should I grant that all the new Buildings were carried on by borrowed money, I could not deny but Interest at four per Cent. were best for the Builder, in case he could speedily borrow at that rate, without severe brok [...]ge or shifts of In­terest; but he that imploys his own money matters not much whether it be at six or four, in regard he knows the work must be done, and he shall find benefit and content thereby.

Yet will not, subduing Interest, hasten the work, but most assuredly hinder, as some have confest to me; for what ever Builder wants money (as I protest I am one) shall lose a Sum­mer before he knows where to borrow it without some under­hand dealing; he shall find it to his cost a contradiction, that many Lenders and low Interest, live together in a declining Common-wealth.

So that upon the whole matter it is certain, and speedy bor­rowing without unconscionable brokage (which will infallibly attend reduction of Interest) that must rebuild London profita­bly to the Builder, and speedily as to the Publick.

And now for the credit of six per Cent. I will appeal to all the world, if the rebuilding of London goes not on much faster then could be reasonably imagin'd by him that shall consider the many discouragements the Builders have laboured under as fears of enemies abroad, doubt at home, wars, and rumours of wars; fears and jealousies, true or false, at present operate a like, scarcity of materials, dearness of Workmen▪ peevishness of Neighbours; grounds and concerns intermixing diffe­rences between Land-lords and Tenants, and the like; many [Page 49]whereof being overcome by the prudence of his Majesty, and infinite pains and wisdom of the reverend Judges, the work now goes so happily on, that by the blessing of the Lord I doubt not to see that City within three or four years, the joy of her Friends, the envie of her enemies, and the beauty of Christendom.

The ninth Proposition examined and answered.

AS wise Generals, in the day of Battle, keep their best Soul­diers as a Reserve against the time of greatest need, so my Discourser, after he has said what wit or skill, or passion can suggest, insinuates at last that lubduing Interest will esta­blish the Crown upon his Majesties Royal House, by raising his Revenues to such a degree, that it may be no ways doubted, but that his Incomes may far exceed his expences, whereby burthens by Taxes on Lands or Persons, may cease, and with them our discontents exspire. A happy age. Welcome low Interest, more powerful than Militia, or standing Armies: Hail thou onely inricher of King and People, Expeller of Se­dition, and establisher of Sacred Majesty. And now after all [Page 51]this Pageantry, what pity it is I must conclude that having examined, and found how little likelyhood there is, that sub­duing Interest will increase the fruit and revenue of the King­dom, we have small reason to hope it will augment the Re­venue of the King: And therefore if we cannot raise his Ma­jesties Incomes above his Exits, let us all humbly beg of God and the King, that his exits may not exceed his Incomes, and that's the same thing; since every man is rich or poor, by what he expends, and not by what he receives.

Having provided for the Crown, he turns himself to the three great Faculties (as he calls them;) Divines, Lawyers, and Physitians, to convince them how great advantage will accrew to their professions by reducing Usury: but because I know they are too wise to be led by an ignis fatuus, I shall leave the whole matter to their examination: and shall (without en­larging on that very odd, undue and dividing expressions of Land being in safe hands, (as if all the world but Landed men were dangerous Creatures) onely observe his angry conclu­sion, in case Usury be not taught to dance after his pipe, Gaolers and Catchpoles walk Horses, and some weight taken out of their scale, that their Interest no longer preponderate, our servitude (saith he) must be (forsooth) almost accom­plish'd; the meaning whereof I cannot conceive, unless be­sides subduing Usury, he would have tallies cut gratis between Debtors and Creditors, or at least some notable defalcation made in the usual and necessary proceedings against unwilling and dishonest men: for otherwise can he without pain hearti­ly believe that the meer reducing Usury to two per Cent. will pre­vent the frequent use of those sowre Instruments of the Law; or that men will be therefore wiser, soberer, or juster, since very few (let him say what he pleaseth) fall into those men's clutches, but meerly through want of sobriety, industry, con­duct, or honesty: but I perceive preoccupied men may say any thing, and venture to impose upon their Readers, in hopes to make impressions in some, according to their own fancies.

And for the Usurer, I hope he is not so savage as to desire the hurt of any man, much less the Nation, especially when things are offered so much (as is pretended) for his benefit; viz. to buy Land at twenty years purchase (nay I will help him for eighteen;) which Land, sayes my Discourser, he may probably improve in Rent, but certainly in some times (ad Graecas Calendas) if he please sell again for thirty, nay forty years purchase rather then fail: why how now Wretch, canst thou desire more then to have thy Revenue kept up in meal or mault: 1800. l. will now buy 100. l. per annum: this new purchase will certainly improve to 130. l. per annum, espe­cially when once our yearly fruit and product becomes dou­ble; and then if thou must needs turn savage Usurer again, and will sell, assure thy self (thou hast two good mens words for it, and the World for witness) it will yield thee thirty years purchase, which is 3900. l. which at three per Cent. (because I will not deceive thee, we will cast upon the lowest Usury) will bring thee in 117. l. per annum, which is 9 l. more then thy first 1800. l. did at six per Cent. and for thy comfort I will be thy Bonds-man (which is more then any man will, in good earnest be for our new project) [...] Gallants will be mad for money, borrow faster then [...] to lend, were't thou richer then Sutton or old Audley; [...]o sharp a Spurr will cheap Usury be to make men run into debt and excesse toge­ther.

The Usurer knows not what to say to this computation; he shakes the he [...]d, and fears a snake in the Flowers; I see where the shooe wrings him; he's jealous the speculation will not hold, like most projects, appear in the Study rational enough, [...]ut fail in the practice: abate his Interest he's sure, he lose [...]h so much; and then, if neither improvements of Rent or purchase follow, nor advancement of Trade nor Manu­factures, where is he and the Nation then? he justly suspects it an kn [...]ck meerly to lessen Usury for the ease, and conve­niency of some body, and [...]o crea [...]e a new Trade (or rather [Page 53]to enlarge the old) for Lurchers and Scriveners, under the fine name of publick good; which he is so sincerely desirous of, that upon any reasonable evidence, warranted by the judgement of un-interested men, the great things promised may take effect, he will, I hope, readily lay aside his present conce ns and fears, and with heart and hand promote the common good: for who is he that would, if he could (in the words of my Discourser) (except these honest men, com­pared with whom, Clippers are Saints, that send abroad five or six hundred thousand pounds per annum for wine and tri­fles) maintain his own wretched way of thriving by his neighbours hurt, and Countries ruine.

The little good subduing Interest will bring to the Nation has been already examined; it now remains briefly to summe up a few of the many mischiefs that will ensue upon it; some whereof having made use of in the precedent Discourse, I have collected, and he [...]e insert to help the Readers me­mory.

1. It will draw the Treasure of the Nation into a few hands, (than which nothing can be more pernicious) and occasion the hoarding up the same, to the infinite decay of Trade, and impoverishment of the Kingdome; for money lock'd up in the Misers Coffers is like dung in a heap, it does no good, but being disperst, and orderly dispos'd abroad, in­richeth the Land.

2. It will make money very scarce to be borrowed, so that the Traders will be to seek for supplyes upon all occasions, which will put a generall imbargo upon all commerce, and ne­cessitate men, especially the active young men with small stocks, (who are the best Merchants) to sell their goods at great loss, because they cannot stay for their best markets, [Page 54]whilest in the mean time all Trade and Commodities would be ingrost by a few rich men, (worse than which nothing can befall a Commonwealth) and more than which nothing can be the wretched aim of some body; and this scarcity of bor­rowing my Discourser himself does suppose in his seventh Proposition.

3. It will expose, both at the present and in the future, an in­finite number of Widows, Orphans, and other impotent per­sons▪ to great want and extremity, who ought more to be considered, (methinks) than by telling them (as my Dis­courser does) there are others (great joy no doubt) who suf­fer as well as they.

4. It will encourage our Gentry to run into debt, by ma­king most of them bolder in borrowing (if any one will lend) and being perpetually in the Usurers Books, to the wounding of their reputations as well as estates, there being, 'tis conceiv­ed, six times more Gentry now deeply in debt, than when mo­ney was at 8. or 10. per Cent. encouraged thereunto meerly by low Interest, imagining so small a thing could never hurt; whereas in truth, 'tis not Usury, but misusing the Capitall that brings destruction; like wine which hurts the immoderate only.

5. It will oblige the Nobility and Gentry to provide greater portions for their younger children, (to their more certain and greater dammage, than subduing Usury can o­therwise possibly ever do them good;) for, if when money was at 10. per Cent. 600. was a portion equivalent to 750. l. at 8. per Cent. and 750 l. as valuable as 1000. l. now money is at 6. per Cent. I cannot imagine, but that upon reducing it to 3. or 4. per Cent. the portion must be so augmented, that the yearly income may answer the Interest of 1000. l. at 6. [Page 55] per Cent. for every man of quality raiseth such portions for his children, if possibly he can, that whether they marry or no, they may live as his children by the Revenue thereof. Now if it be answered, that parents in this case may leave portions in Land, or Rent-charges, in stead of money, it will be re­plyed, a thousand inconveniencies will ensue thereupon, as well to parents, in cantonizing, or incumbring estates, as to children, in matching or living remote from their mainte­nance, and nothing so gratefull, except some contiguous estate, as ready money. Nor can these portions in land be practised amongst half the Nation.

6. It will introduce a thousand tricks amongst the rank Usurers, Brokers, and Scriveners, whereby the hasty bor­rower shall be indirectly worm'd out of more money than when Interest was at 8. per Cent. for the harder money is to be procured in respect of low Interest, the more shall, at least by the broker, be extorted under-hand from the bor­rower; so that had I money, and a right brokers principle, I should not care a straw how Usury by Law were mortified; and this (to omit ten thousand instances daily practised, I fear, amongst our selves now money is scarce) was clearly seen, when in Edward the sixth his dayes, either out of a rigid zeal, new fangledness, or some temporary, or State-reason, now unknown to us, all manner of Usury and en­crease of money was quite taken away, it made the matter far worse; as may appear by the preamble of the Statute made in the 13th of Elizabeth, for repealing the foresaid Statute, and allowing Usury at 10. per Cent. wherein 'tis confest, that the foresaid Law did not do so much good as was hoped it would, but rather the said vice of Usury, and especially by way of sale of wares, and shifts of Interest, (devices which unconscionable lenders and brokers then did, still do, and ever will practise, the lower Interest is reduc'd) hath much more exceedingly abounded: Now to me it seems in effect the same thing, to annihilate Usury quite, (which I dare [Page 56]swear the rank Usurer, Lurcher, and Broker, would keep Holiday to see) as so to mortifie it, that men may not on reasonable security speedily borrow at the allowed rate, without some undue treatment, whereby necessitous men shall be sure to be devoured by Hawk or Buzzard, both birds of prey; whilest in the mean time the worthy and conscienti­ous lender should be next undone. And upon this account, and that of surprizing necessitous traders, was this worship­full brat of low Interest, with wonderfull sag [...]city, begot in the crafty noddle of a great monied man, who in time, as things shall fadge, may make a Lurcher, and a tender-hearted Scrivener, without whose warm influence the towardly babe (saith my Author) might probably have prov'd an a­borrive. If the conjunction of such kind-natured Planets por­tend good to mankind, I will henceforth never regard Astro­logy; and when I see such creatures imploy their brains for the reall ease and benefit of honest borrowers, I will believe my Geese secure when the Fox preacheth against theft: In the mean time, if my worthy Discourser has made himself a party in the intrigue, I must judge it on some other convenient de­sign, by remembring what himself ingeniously confesseth, that being his fathers Executor, he was under an obligation to revenge his quarrell on the Usurer.

7. It will cause the Dutch to withdraw their money from us, to the great stop of trade, to which, although it has been already answered by J. C. and others, it were better he with­out their money, and that we only feed lean Kine for their advantage, yet sure our benefit is also great thereby; for having a stock of theirs, without which our trade could not be carried vigorously on, what hurt may it be to us, (nay rather what benefit is it not?) if we paying them 6. per Cent. gain 15. more our selves, which without their money we could not do: but peradventure the true quarrell to this Dutch money is, that it keeps oure weaker Merchants out of the pawes of unconscionable Lurchrs.

8. It only can retard the building of London, for whilest the owners of ground within the City want money to build, and can neither quickly borrow at the intended rate, nor willingly sell their concerns on reasonable terms to such as have money, the carrying on of that work must needs be hindered.

9. And lastly, It will expose the Gentry who shall be in debt, at the passing such a Law, to many and great exigents, before they shall get clear of their (re­ditors; it being ten to one the debtors estates will be­come so many sacrifices, ere any man will be found to come in to their rescue, though Chancery, or the inten­ded Act should allow them a considerable time for re­demption: So that I dare affirm, this Nation yet never saw such Seisures, Arrests, Extents, Executions, &c. as will infallibly follow upon passing such a Law; which mischiefs neither were, nor could be so great and in­evitable, whilest Interest continued at any tolerable rate; for then, if one man call'd in his money, another was as ready to lend on the same security, whereby all sides were accommodated, which upon reducing Interest to a trifle, will abundantly fail; unless the number of len­ders did farre surmount the number of borrowers; in which case, the sullen fit in some could not prevent the complyance of others; but this felicity is far from the present condition of England; so that, as it is apparent, on the one hand, the debtors will lose their hopes of borrowing, to get clear of their present Creditors, so on the other hand, they have little reason to believe their Lands will yeeld a penny more than it would have done before such retrenchment, there being now much more Land to be sold for payment of debts, (the plenty of a commodity must needs make it cheap) than there is money in the Nation to purchase it, or redeem it out [Page 58]of the hands of the present mortgagers: and when a Gentleman (depriv'd of all apparent means of borrowing) is left in the hand of a severe Creditor, his condition is like to be sad enough, be it only (now) by way of retaliation.