[...] Passages of the House of LORDS In the Winter Des [...] of Parliament in the year 92.
Novemb.1st. THe Earles of Hontingdon and Marlebrough complained of their being denyed by the Kings Bench to come out of Prison, altho' they had offered Bail accorcording to the Act of Habeas Corpus; the Business was referred to a Committe, who were impower'd to send for Papers, Persons and Records: And the Lord Lucas was ordered to produce the Warrants for Commitment of both the said Earls, also the Clerk of the Kings Bench was ordered to bring to the Committe, the Affidavit of Aaron Smith upon which the Lords had been Remanded back to Prison.
10th. After a very long Debate, and the Judges heard in their own defence as well as Aaron Smith upon Oath, which he refused to swear till the House was just going to send him to Prison; A Committe was ordered to draw up a Resolution in pursuance of the Debate, and to present it to the House to [...]orrow morning, and Aaron Smith also to attend, and no other business whatsoever to intervene.
11th. Upon the Report from the Committe, there was another long Debate, which was at last Adjournest again till to morrow, and all the Judges Ordered to attend.
12th. Upon the Earle of Scarsdalt's Complaint that his House had been searched, the Messenger being sick who [...] was ordered to send the Origin I Warrant by vertue of which [...]e [...] one it, and the [...] [...]siness of the three Lords was referred to a Committe of the w [...] House, the Judges [...] attend, and nothing else to intervene.
14th. Resolved in the Committe of the whole House, That whereas by the Statute 31 Ch. 2d. commonly called the Habeas Corpus Act, A [...] Judges and Justices, &c. 'tis now resolved and declared by this House, that it is the duty of all the Judges and Justices of Oyer and Terminer, and general Goale-Delivery in pursuance of the said Act, to set at Liberty the Prisoner on Bail, [...]f Committed for High Th [...]s [...], unless it be made appear upon Oath that there are two Witnesses against the said Person who cannot be produced in that Term, Sessions, or General Goal-Delivery: And tis hereby further resolved, that in case there shall be more then one Prisoner to be Bailed or Remanded, 'tis the intention of the said Statute, that there must be Oath made that there are two Witnesses against each of such Prisoners, in order to remand them to Prison respectively.
And this Resolution was Ordered to be Recorded in the Books of this House, as a Direction to a [...] [...]udges for the future, and to prevent all excuse for any such Illegal Proceedings for the future.
[...] Upon a long Debate about the manner of freeing the several Lords from their Bail before [...] House would go upon any other Business whatsoever, to prevent it a notice was intimated from the King that he would cause their Bail to be immediatly discharged at which the House [...] for two dayes that he might haye time to do so before they sat again they being [...] upon no other Business till that was not only promised but executed.
[...] House was [...]or [...]ed by the Lords concerned that their Bail was discharged and as [...] ever they had a [...]inted the House they fell to other Business.
18th. The House [...]ppointed a Committe to draw a Return of Thanks for the Kings Speech, which had n [...]er yet been so much as taken notice of because of this Business of the Lords, and it [...] only that a handle might be taken for giving Advice to the King, to which something in h [...] Speech seemed to invite the Lords, and the Address was Penn'd soon purpose to thank him for the invitation so that the Lords found themselves ingaged in the Advice before s [...]me of them were well [...]
[...] [...]fter having sate many dayes [...]der great Controversies about giving advice, it was Resolved, first that the King should be advised to give the chief Command of the English For c [...]o no man who is not a Subject born in his Majesties Dominions.
And that Mr. Blaithwait should bring a List of all the General Officers and Troopes upon the [...]
And that the Chief Officers of the Ordnance shall send a List of all Officers belonging to the same, as also an Account of the Stores, and what hath been delivered out these two last years.
And that the Keeper of the Paper-Office in Whitehall send the Capitulation made between the English and Dutch in 1674.
29th. Ordered, that the Commissioners of the Admiralty shall send all such Orders and Letters, and Instructions as were sent to the Admiral last Summer, and Particularly those which relate to the Descent, and the Answers thereunto, and also Coppies of such Letters or Orders as have been sent by the Commanders in Chief to Inferior Officers, in Relation to the intended Descent, or to the pursuite after the Fight at Sea. That the Commissioners for the Transport Ships send an Account of all they have done concerning these Matters. That the King be desired to direct, that all the Orders and Papers sent by the Privy Council, or by the Secretary of State, relating to the last Summers Expedition at Sea, and the full account of all the Transactions be laid before this House, and Particularly all such Orders and Papers as relate to the intended Descent.
30th. The King sent Word that he had directed it accordingly: The Commissioners of Accounts Establisht by Parliament were ordered to send them in, Signed by five of them at the least, and they were sent in accordingly.
Decemb. 1st. The Officers of the Ordnance were ordered to bring an Abstract of the Stores two Years ago, and what hath been delivered out Since, and to put under the Name of every Spe [...] the Summe total, as well of the Issues, as of what remains▪ And [...] send a List of all the [...] reigners upon their Establishment, or employed by them, and in what Places.
6th. The Earle of Nottingham brought in those Papers from the King, which being Read,
7th. There arose along Debate about a Motion for having a Committe of both Houses sit together, in order to the better Examination of the last Years Miscarriages, the Question being carryed by a very few Votes in the Negative: The other Lords Assigned the following Protestation, and entred it under their own Hands in the Books of the House.
A Protestation against the Vote that refused to agree that a Committe of both Houses should sit, together.
First, Because his Majesty having particularly, and expresly desired the Advice of his Parliament at this time when he so much seems to need it; no other Methods was, nor in our Opinions could be proposed, by which the two Houses might so well and so speedily be brought to that concurrance which is necessary to render their Advice Effectual.
2dly. Because it appears by some Papers already imparted to this House, that severa [...] [...]mbers of the House of Commons are concern'd in the Matters before us, as having been so lately employed in his Majesties Service, and we conceive it the easiest, properest, and fairest way of Communication between the two Houses, to have so great and important Business transacted, and prepared in a Committe so chosen.
3dly. Because it cannot be expected that so many Members of the House [...] from whom we shall need Information, can in any other manner be here present so often [...] with the leave of their House) as will be necessary for a sufficient Enquiry into the sever [...] [...]s now under Consideration.
4thly. Because, if the House of Commons intend also to give Advice to his Majesty tis very probable that both Houses of Parliament may receive such Information severally as will be thought fit to be communicated as soon as possible, and we conceive no way of doing that can be [...] proper, or speedy, as in a Committe of both Houses.
5thly. Because in a time of such iminent Danger to the [...]ation by reason so many Miscarriages as are supposed generally to have been committed; the closest and strictest Union of [...] Houses is absolutely necessary to redeem us from all that Ruine which we have too m [...] cause to fear is coming upon us.
Decemb. 8th. The Earle of Nottingham brought his own Book of Entries, with Mr. Russels Le [...]ers, [Page]and Copies of his own to Mr. Russel, of all which a List was taken, and all of them re [...]erred to a Committe.
9th. Another Committe appointed to examine what way might be found for the House to [...]peak with a Member of the House of Commons, or to have him before a Committe.
10th. Sir John Ashby was examined at the Barr, then it was reported from the Committe, that they had found an Expedient, which was Debated, and at last resolved on.
And another Committe ordered to prepare something to be delivered at a Conference, together with all the Letters, &c.
19th. The Lord President ordered to deliver the Papers, &c. And to say as followeth, We, by Command of the House of Commons are often mentioned in the said Papers, from whom possibly you may be more particularly informed of the Matters contained in them.
21st. The House of Commons at another Conference told the House of Lords, that they had Read and well considered those Papers which they had sent them, and finding Mr. Russel a Member of their House often mentioned in them, the Commons unanimously came to this Resolution: That Admiral Russel in his Command of the Fleet during the last Summers Expediton, has behaved himself with Fidelity and Conduct.
22. A Committe to inspect the Books in relation to a true Conference, and particularly whether there have been any free Conferences desired with the Commons, when the Houses di [...] not disagree.
[...]th. Reported from that Committe that they had found some Presidents for it as followeth.
Aug. 9th. 1660. The Commons desired a Conference about a Business of great Importance, without any Disagreement. Aug. 13. 1660. The Lords desired a Conference about the same Business without any Disagreement.
Sept. 1. 1660 A Free Conference was desired by the Commons upon the same Subject still, without any Disagreement.
July 29 1660. A free Conference was desired by the Lords about the same Bill, without Disagreement' and another Conference was desired by the Commons the same day.
After a long Debate, another Committe was appointed to inspect Presidents, whether the Resolution of the House of Commons delivered at the last Conference, be according to the usual Proceedings of Parliament, and to consider of Heads to be delivered at a free Conference on than subject.
31. The Question was put, whether the Bill for impartial Proceeding in Parliament should [...] [...]mitted, and it was carried in the Affirmative by 15 Votes: Then it was put whether they should now proceed upon it, and it was carried in the Negative.
July. 1st. A Free Conference desired by the Lords, who told the Commons that their Hose [...]unicating to the House of Lords at a Conferance, a Vote of theirs upon Matter of Fact only, without giving any Reasons for it, is not according to the usual Proceedings in Parlia [...]; [...] [...]sure it seems they took putiently, and without making the least reply.
[...] of those Lords who Signed the several Protestations with Reasons in this Sessions of [...], which Names under their own Hands, together with the Reasons in the Publick [...] of that House.
- Mulgrave.
- Rivers.
- Warrington.
- Denbeigh.
- Thanet
- Alisbury,
- &c. to the number of 40.
An Account relating to some of the Affairs in Ireland, given by Mr. Sloane To the Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament Assembled.
IN [...]bedience to your Lordships Commands, I humbly give this Account of some things I have seen and Observed, or credibly heard of the Affairs of that Uunfortunate Kingdom: [Page]out of which, by your Lordships direction, I shall omit many other things which I have only by Informations. Tho' I believe the same may be well proved, concerning the State and Affairs of that Kingdom. And if this shall be of any publick service either to this, or that Kingdom, I shall reckon it more then a reward sufficient to repair any Injury can be done me on this account.
It was in August last I went into Ireland, partly on own private Business, and partly to settle some Affairs relating to my Lord Lisburn, who had left me one of his Executors and Trustee [...] of his Estate, and being there, was chosen a Member of the House of Commons, which was the chief occasion of my seeing or observing what I did on this unfortunate Subject.
1. One of the great Grievances, and that which is most immediatly felt by the subjects there I take to be that the Army there have not been better pay'd, and that by reason thereof since the War ended they have been contrary to known Laws (as they said for want of Pay and subsistance) in many places of that Kingdom necessitated often to take free Quarter, not only for Meat and Drink and Lodging, but to supply themselves with Cloaths and other necessarys, have Taxed, exacted, and received from the Country, great Sums of Money, and where the same was not paid, in many places cistrained for the same. Of which I heard man [...] Complaints, and that few or none could ever get any Redress. And on that account I believe there is due to the Country above 200000 l. which hath tended to the ruine of many Persons and Families there. And if this were an end of it, that which is past might be the easter forgot. But as I am credibi, informed by the late Accounts from thence, Free Quarters, and taxing the Subject is in divers places continued to this time, or some few Weeks since: And if not prevented for the future by the better Pay and Order of the Army, may tend to the great impoverishment and destruction of that Kingdom. Yet I am not surprized it should be so, for it was publickly told us in the House of Commons, as I remember by Mr. P [...]ultney and Mr. Davids, concerned in or about the Government there, that u [...]ess we would poss the Money Bills as brought from the Council Board, the Army woule take Fice Quarter, or to that effect. [...] as appears to me there is the less Necessity for it now (were the publick Money rightly applyed) for that as Mr. Polutney brought the Papers from the Lord Laeutenant to the House of Commons, considering the List of the Civil and Military Establishment of Ireland, which was so far from being under-rated, that it was observed that the Abatement might reasonably be ma [...] therein, in such a time of Distress as this is there: And considering likewise the Calculations of the Revenue, which, by what I have heard from those well skill'd therein, I do believe was at a great undervalue; yet to supply the defects thereof, and to support the Expence of the Government, there, the Sum demanded was no more than 70000 l. to discharge all to [...] [...] the Supply, whereof a Bill has passed for an Additional Excise on Beer, Ale and other Liquors, which at a very moderate, and one of the lowest computations, I heard was reckoned at 30000 l. and others computed it at far more, and the rest was intended to be supplyed by a P [...]ll [...] the Parliament had not been Prorogued before the had time to do it.
I have heard many Complaints of the Misapplications and Emhezilments [...] Real and Personal Forfeited Estates, wherewith the People found themselves the more sensibly [...] [...]eved, for that when the Money was wanting to support the Expence of the Government [...] Parliament were called upon to make it good, and therefore this was Voted to be a great [...] vance. Pursuant to that Vote the Committe of Grievances began to enter upon particular [...] quiries of the Revenue and Forfeited Estates: And the first Man I remember fell in their way was Mr. Culliford, who being acquinted that he stood charged with the taking into his [...]dy several forfeited Goods, and the Disposing thereof to his own Use, when he was one of the Commissioners of the Revenue, he told the Committe that he was a Member of the Parliament of England, and tho' he was willing to wave his own Priviledge, yet the priviledge of the [...]sse of Commons in England might be concerned therein, which re offered to their Consideration [...] of to that effect. And the Debate thereof was afterwads Adjourned by the House, and never determined [Page]for or against his Priviledge, but to prevent the loss of the Testimony, Witnesses were Examined there, and by what had passed before here at the Treasury against him, and what was there, I think it plainly appeared, and of the same Opinion seemed generally the rest of all who heard it examined, that he was guilty of very great Breaches of Trust when he was one of the Commissioners of the Revenue, by seizing and converting to his own use, Forfeited Goods of considerable value, and by letting or procuring Leases in trust for himself, of the Milns and Weers of Kilmainham, Mr. Kereifs Estate, the Cranage and Wharfage of Cork, which as of late exacted, was affirmed in proof by persons of Credit there, to be a new Exaction, and upon the Merchants first set up by his own Means. And Mr. Warren of Carduffs Estate of considerable yearly value, at very inconsiderable Rents: To which he added the Estate of one Mr. Sweetman adjacent to him, who had been under some prosecution or accusation for the Murther of some Soldiers near Dublin, and became Mr. Callefords Tenant for his own Estate, and was never after prosecuted as I heard of.
The Committe of the Commons were likewise upon inquiries of other Leases let at great under-values, and about 13000 l. or more said to be return'd by the Commissioners of the Forfeit Personal Estates to the Commissioners of the revenue, of which it was believed a small Account had been made to their Majesties, and had several Papers and Books brought before the Committe, which were as seemed to me so general by confused and imperfect, that they could not make a full Discovery thereby. And were likewise upon another Inquiry after other Imbezilments of the Revenue and Forfeitures, but were Prorogued before they could arrive at the lame. Divers other wayes there are of lessening the Forfeitures, as by reversing of Outlawries, and thereby the former Proprietors restored, and some of them, as credibly said, not within any Articles, but what they made for themselves, since the War ended, and also by Grants, or promises of Grants to the Lord Sidney, Lord Athlone, Lord Coningsby and others to that Degree, that by a late credible Account I have from Ireland, there remains little or nothing of the clear forfeitures but what is pitched upon, or in a way of Grant to some Great Person.
It was much complained of, the suffering so many Papists to keep Arms, and many of them to be in the now standing Army, of which the Members of the House from their several Countries gave many Accounts: and the House of Commons had that apprehension thereof, and that the same might greatly indanger the Government, that they sent to the Lord Lieutenant for remedy thereof or to that Effect, which his Excellency said he would take care to do, as his answer was reported to the House, or to that effect.
And there was likewise a general Complaint, and Account thereof given to the House or Committe of the House, of hindring the Protestants from their due course of Law against the Papists, and illegal Protections granted to the Papists, of which there were instances given, and when the Reason was asked why so many, or such persons should be Protected, it was publickly answered by the said Mr. Davies, who as was said had a hand in making the same out, that it might be A cana Imperii, and not fit to be told, or to that effect.
But that which I apprehend to the greatest discouragement of all to the Protestants, and Incouragement to the Papists, is the manner of Proroguing the Parliament, and what hath happened since that time.
I think I may without flattering of them say, that there never was a House of Commons of that Kingdom of better Value than they generally were, either for their Estates, or the sincerity of their Principles, to the English Protestant Interest, and who on occasions expressed the grateful sense they had of the great kindness of this Kingdom many ways expressed towards them for their relief in their distresse. We received the Lord Lieutenants [Page]first Speech with great joy, for thereby he told us, that he had their Majesties Commands to call us, as the greatest demonstrations they could give of their Affections to us, who had suffered so many great Oppressions almost to an utter desolation of the Country. And could not be so well settled as by a Parliament, which he said was a blessing that for so many Years we had been deprived of, whereby the Interest had been in danger of loosing not only their Religion, but all that property with which so great expence of Blood and Treasure they had purchased. And therefore he doubted not but we would make use of it to pass such Laws as might tend to the firm settlement of the Country upon a Protestant Interest; And that He was ordered by their Majesties to assure us, that nothing should be wanting on their Parts that might contribute to our lasting or perfect Happiness, as among other things does in his Speech appear, or to that effect.
This was thought all very good, and very true; For my Lord Cook in his 4th. Institutes, mentions the Law of Edw. 2. de Parliamentis tenendis singulis annis in Hibernia, & de legibus & consuetudinibus ibidem emendandis, which was so far observed, that from the 7th. of H. 6. which was about 200 and odd Years before the last Parliament in 1665. there were in all above 50. Sessions of Parliament, and most of them were new Parliaments. But from the time of the last Parliament till now, they had contrary to the said Law as I conceive, an Interval of about 27 Years, in which time I fear may too easily be made appear there had grown over the Kingdom several Arbitrary Powers, and Jurisdictions, Oppressions and Grievances, besides that we wanted many good Laws which had been made in this Kingdom, and were as I thought as much wanted, tho' not of force there, and now we hoped to redress all.
But tho' the Matter of mony came towards the last in the Speech, it came among the first of the Business, and was readily imbraced by the Commons, and when my Lord Lieutenant sent the Civil and Military Lists, together with their own Computation of what the Revenue might yield, Mr. Poultney proposed only the Sum of 70000 l. as what would be wanting to support the Government, and tho' it be almost incredible to any body who has not been there, to believe the great wastes and Poverty which generally reigns throughout the Kingdom, save in some parts of the North, and in and about Dublin, and a few other Towns which are better then the rest; yet the Commons were resolved to bear any thing they could rather than be further burthensome to this Kingdom; And therefore Voted a Sum not exceeding 70000 l. and spent some time in finding the ways and means how to do it with the greatest ease to the Country. But thereafter were brought to us (by Mr. Poultney as I think) two Bills which had been prepared by the Council Board, the one for the said Additional Excise, which was pretty well liked for its substance, and the other as was said for a Charge of 15 d. per Acre on all Corn in the Kingdom, which was thought very unequal in it self, there being very great differences of Corn, and of the several sorts, and the Grasiers and Traders greatly escaping the Tax of so many People starving for want of Bread. It was thought strange by some, why these Bills should have been kept from us so long, to let us spend so much time as aforesaid; after they were tendred it was greatly disli [...]ed that the Privy Council should prepare Money Bills, before the Heads of them were first found and prepared by the Commons. And here I would undeceive any of your Lordships who have been told that we intended by that or any other proceeding to avoid Poynings Law, being the 10th. of H. 7. And thereby make our selves Independant as they call on this Kingdom. For what we did was to assert the Commons having the sole Right of first finding or proposing the Heads of Bills for raising Money; and that when the Cummons had proposed them to the Council Board, the Council Board should draw them into Bills, and transmit them into England, to be transmitted back according [Page]to the Method of Poynings Law; which Vote was made on the 27th. of Octob. and 7 days after that we were prorogued, and the Cause assign'd by his Excellencies last Speech of the 3d of Novem. for his displeasure against us was Printed, is that he is troubled that we who had so many Obligations to be Loyal and Dutifully Affected to their Majesties, should so far mistake our selves as to intrench upon their Majesties Prerogative and Rights of the Crown of England, as we had done by our said Vote of the 27th of October, and of the subsequent Vote of rejecting a Bill Entituled, An Act for granting to their Majesties certain for one year, which was the Corn Bill, because it had its rise first from the Commons, and therefore he requires his Protest against those Votes to be entred in the Lords Books, or to that effect, and so Prorogued we were to the 6th. of April.
It was thought by many Members there present, that his Excellency had said we had behaved our selves undutifully, & ingratefully in invading their Majesties Prerogative and to that effect; and if they were in a mistake, I confess I was in the same; but I find little difference in my apprehensions between those Words, and the meaning of the said Expressions in the Printed Speech; However this was very unkindly taken, and thought strange that this should be the cause of our parting in that manner, considering first, for that the Reasons appeared, as was generally thought, for the right of the Vote to be with us. In that I think no body can reasonably deny but that Poynings Act was not intended to devest the Commons of that Original Right, but that it was designed chiefly to prevent the danger of an Irish Interest, being too prevalent with a Chief Governor there, to the prejudice of the English. And the same reason which was before the Act for the Commons to begin Money Bills still remains that they are presumed to know better than the Council what Money the Country is able to bear, and how it may best be raised, with ease to the Subject. But that was not much insisted on in the Case, For that we proposed only to pursue Poynings Act as aforesaid, and having also the Act of the 3d. and 4th. Ph. and Mar. Explicatory thereof, and finding the Reasons as to most of us seemed, with us, we inspected the Journals of the House, and tho' perhaps some time upon an Emergency, and for an Expedition this Right might be Overlookt for a time yet.
Hereupon it seemed after the Debate to be the general Opinion of the House that Right was for us, but it was much pressed that for supply of the present Necessity of the Government, we should pass these two Bills with a salvo to our Right, which was not at first well liked by some, Namely Mr. Hamilton of Taltimore, my self, and others, who thought it no good Expedient to yield the Right, and have only a salvo for it, the rather for that we were ready to have come if we had been called sooner, and were now desirous to stay till we might raise the Money in our own way: And so we might have some of our other Laws go hand in hand with the Money Bills, whereas the other way the Money would be given, & the Laws might be left behind; However an Expedient and the present giving some Money was so earnestly pressed, that the House for ought appeared, became all unanimous in what was done, that is, in passing the Excise Bill, which was to raise the ready Money, with a Declaration that it was only for this time, and should be never drawn again into President, and by asserting the Right by the said vote, and by rejecting the Corn Bill for the same reason of not having its first rise from the Commons, which was all done, and was by many reckoned a great complyance, and not doubted but it would be pleasing to his Excellency. For this last Expedient was particularly proposed and prosecuted, as I was credibly informed by Brodrick by some of the Privy Council, as Col. Cook who had frequent Access to his Excellency, and seemed to understand his mind and think it appears by the votes that they passed Nemine contra dicente on this Matter.
It was yet the stranger to many of us, because Sir Cyril Wyche on Wednesday 2d. of November, [Page]reported from his Excellency to the House, that he had heard a good Character of Dr. Warkington the Chaplain of the House, but being recommended by the House to his Excelency, he would on that account take more care of him. And so on other Occasions [...]hi Excellency was pleased to return very good Answers to the Addresses of the House. And farther the same day, Wednesday the 2d. Novem. He reported from his Excellency, that he had appointed Friday next for the Committe to attend him in Council, with the Heads of the new Laws we had prepared, which made many of us think that his Excellency had not then resolved to Prorogue us on Thursday, which was the only intervenient day, however it was done on Thursday the 3d. & was reckoned a greater loss to us, for that the Heads of the Laws we had prepared to tender him, were of very great consequence to the Nation, viz. The Heads of Habeas Corpus Act, of the Act for restraining the Jurisdiction of the Council Board, of the Act against buying and selling of Offices, of the Act against Frauds and Perjuries, with several other good Laws of Force here but not there. But being Prorogued the day before, we had not the Opportunity so much as to tender them. It was only told us on the Prorogation by the Lord Chancellor, that his Excellency being informed of what Heads we intended to tender him, He would take them into Consideration, and against the next meeting of Parliament such of them as should be found requisite, should be in a readiness to be brought into Parliament. And I am now credibly informed that some of them are prepared, but the Habeas Corpus Bill which I value more then all the rest, I am told is to be left behind, and so is not thought requisite as I believe.
It was yet the stranger, that in these 7 dayes we had been very busy by a Poll Bill to raise the rest of the Money, and intended to do it sooner that way then the Corn Bill would have done, which could not be till next Harvest. And also for that we were then coming upon the more close pursuit of our Grievances, and the imbezilments of the Revenue, in which we thought we were at our Duties.
And after all this heat about (as we said) our intrenching on the Prerogative, it was considered that it was of great use to the Subject, that the Commons should have that right, if they are willing to give the Money. It seemed to many but reasonable to let them find the easiest wayes of raising it. But on the other side, such a Prerogative as that the Council Board may first find the Ways of raising Money, I could not see of what use it could be, unless it were to occasion more heats; For the Commons without doubt has a Negative Vote, and can throw it out; besides that I could not see how this Claim comes by the name of Prerogative, which I take to be an ancient inherent Right of the Crown. But whatever can be said of this must be drawn from Poynings Act and the the 3d. and 4th. of Ph. and Mary, or something since Poynings Law.
Now for what happened since the Prorogation, many of the Members thought it very necessary to have Agents to attend their Majesties here on the behalf of the Protestants, to render them and their proceedings right in their Majesties Opinion, as also to solicite such Matters as might happen relating to them. Which way of sending Agents hither had been heretofore used, but was done as some affirm, by consent of the Government there. Wherefore to pursue the former method, a Petition was presented to his Excellency by Sir Robert King, and Sir Arthur Rawden, Sir Arthur Langford and Mr. Annesly, and Signed by them on the behalf of themselves and others, which was no more in substance than to pray leave to appoint Agents to attend their Majesties, to which his Excellency (as they declared) delivered this Answer, that they could not have a better Agent than the King himself, who had been Agent for the Protestants for these twenty years, but if they would have leave for any to go over and beg the King pardon for their Rio [...]ous and Seditiou [...] Meetings, they might have it, or to that effect. This sounded very hard in the Ears both [Page]of the Gentlemen to whom it was said and others, who believed them to be men of Great Value and integrity. But this was not the end, for there was, as I believe may be proved, a dir [...]ction to prosecute them upon an Information in the Kings Bench, which they were resolved to defend, but it seems it was better considered, and they were let alone.
This of having Agents here, was thought the more necessary, for that the Papists, as many affirmed, have Agents to Solicite their Affairs here, and make Collections for them in Ireland, & if the Prot [...]stant [...] had Agents here, it is not like that such Bills would have [...]een sent them without amendment, as some were now Transmitted to the Parliament, with very fair Titles, but rejected for the Bodys of them, As a Bill to confirm the Act of Settlement, which is much wished for, but there were such things therein, that instead of confirming, it would have set things much looser than they were, as many seemed to think, for which it was rejected. And the same fate found a Bill for reversing the proceedings of Attainder, passed when the late King was there, which had been very welcome to many [...]imerous People there, yet was rejected by reason of a Clause in the body thereof. It faired no better with a Bill for punishing Mutineers and Deserters, which probably had passed if it had been as the Act for that purpose here is, but it was to continue for 3 Years, & from thence to the next Session of Parliament, which was so uncertain, and the Clauses relating to the regulating Quarters left out, that chiefly as appeared to me for these reasons it was rejected, and also for that it would have had some days retrospect, before it could have passed, and the Heads of another were ordered to be brought to supply it. And another was a Bill to Erect and Establish the Militia, which the House as appeared to me were very desirous to do for the publick safety, but this as drawn would have brought a burthen on the Subject, as was offered, more then we thought them well able to bear, besides the great penalties and Arbitrary ways of Taxing and raising the Money, and an Obligation thereby to find more Men to serve in some Counties then there were Protestants in such C [...]unties, as some of the Members said. For which among other faults, and for that being a charge on the Subject, and not having the Heads first proposed by the House of Commons, that Bill was also rejected, and the Heads of another ordered to be prepared.
Mr. Osborne, and Mr, Brodrick their Majesties two Serjeants at Law were presently after the Prorogation suspended or discharged, and since that have been turned out even of the Commission of the Peace, as I have been credibly informed.
The said Si [...] Ar [...]hur Rawdon was superseded or discharged of being Governour of the County of Down, and that Command or Government was first offered to the Earl of Dun [...]igal, and then to the Earl of Mount-Alexander as I have been credibly informed, who both [...]efused it, and I do not hear that to this day any body has accepted thereof.
The Consequence of the said Matter [...] (as I have been credily told) have happened very evil to the Publick, for the Plante [...]s are discouraged, and persons who came hither with their Stocks and Money from Scotland, and elsewhere, are removed again, and so are others of the Ancient Inhabitants, and so much the Country is like still to lye longer waste [...]nd depopulated, while these dissatisfactions continue.
I fear I have been too tedious, which I hope will be excused by your Lordships by the greatness and variety of the Subject, and for what uncorrect Expressions may have escaped me (as I believe there are many) I hope the straitness of [...]ime, scarce being able to review or peruse it, will procure my Pardon from your Lordships; but I have endeavou [...]ed as ne [...]r as I can, pursuant to your Lordships Directions, to set forth the Truth, and nothing else to the best of my knowledge, remembrance and belief, and th [...]t I hope will always justify it self.
I Humbly pray your Lordships pleasure, whether in the Account your Lordships are pleased to Command from me of the Estate of Ireland I may use Names, without which the Account I shall make will not be perfect.
That then I humbly lay at your Lordships feet will chiefly arise from my Observatio [...] in the Parliament of Ireland, in which I had the honour to be a Member, and one of th [...] Co [...]mitte of Grievances and Accounts.
Before the Committe of Grievances there was brought so many Complaints of the unequal disposition of Lands, and chiefly against Mr. Calliford, that the Committe fearing they should not have time to proceed on greater Grievances of the Nation, made one generall Vote, that it was a Grievance and great breach of Trust, for the Commissioners of the Revenue to set forfeited Lands to themselves or any in trust for them, or any imployed under them; too many instances of which came before the Committe. I dare not presume on your Lordships time to relate the main grievous Complaints of dispoyled Protestants, turned out of the Farms they were formerly in, and some that had their Lands taken away from them after they had Plowed and Sowed it, and then set to Irish for a fifth of what they payd.
Others their Lands seized contrary to Law, their Goods and Cattle taken out of th [...] Country and brought to Dublin, that so they might be under an Attachment for Debt i [...] England, being asked why they complained not to the Government, gave s [...]ch reasons a [...] I am loath to repeat.
With your Lordships leave, I now come to the Disposition of forfeited Lands; and tho' the Methods pretended for Setting them was very fair, yet the practice was differin [...] from it. Articles was used, that few had liberty of bidding for the Lands they Lived o [...] but by all I could find in the Books and Rent-Role the Greatest part of the La [...]ds were S [...] for private Advantage to Favorites or some concerned in the Revenue, or in trust f [...] others, as the Lord Chief Baron Heyley, Judge Lindon, several of the best Farms near Dubli [...] taken in the name of a Hackney-Coachman, by the best information I could get and mak [...] out of the Books and Rent-Role, the Lands were generally set for one fourth of the pr [...] sent Value.
I found by the Books and Rent-Role, that the forfeited Lands were set the first y [...]a [...] for 32000 l. and this was when only two of the Provinces were intirely under his Majesties Obedience.
The second Year when the other two Provinces were under his Majesties Governmen [...] and intire Peace, then all the forfeited Lands were set for about 10000 l. per Annum, an [...] the reason of this being asked, I was answered by some in the Revenue, that it was th [...] Articles of Limerick made so great a fall in the forfeitures, but that could not be the Caus [...] for there was much more added to the forfeitures by the surrender of Galloway and Lim [...] rick, which brought in two Provinces, than there was restored, tho' it was said by th [...] Lords Justices Interpretations of the Articles of Galloway, There were some put in possesion of Lands they had no Right to; this Disposition of the forfeited Lands was so not [...] rious that it put the Committe of Accounts off from any further inquiry, and intended report of the Lands as they must of the forfeited Goods, that they were generally imbeled, in my humble Opinion to the Value of some Hundred thousands of Pounds.
The next thing the Committe of Accounts looked into was the Accounts of forfeit [Page]Goods which was so framed that it would have taken up Months to have brought it into Methods that might be understood. The Account seemed nothing but a trick, neither Cheeque nor Vochers, Method nor Form who to Charge, but so loose that every Officer imployed in them must be examined before a Charge could be made on any one of them, but upon the whole I found there was not brought to the Kings Account above 1800 l. and about 5000 charged for Goods as I remember on the Army that they had taken, but I saw not such care taken to charge others that had greater Shares of the Goods, so that 135000 l. worth of Goods delivered into the Commissioners Charge, and near as much said to be privately disposed of in the Country by the Commissioners of the Revenue by private Orders from Mr. Calliford. Of all there appears not 10000 l. brought to their Majesties Account.
Yet I must acquaint your Lordships, that there seemed great diligence in the Government to inlarge the Forfeitures, as will appear in an instance I beg your Lordships leave to Mention.
There was one Ivy, now Knight of the Shire for the County of Waterford, This Gentleman upon his flight for England from the Irish Government, had his Estate and Goods Seized, and upon his return sound a Quantity of his Wool in King James's Stores in Waterford, upon which he made application to the Government to have his Wool restored, but could obtain nothing but Referrences from one set of Commissioners to another, but at last had his final answer, that he must go to the Exchequer, and they told him that he must proceed by due Methods of Law, which he did, the Kings Council demurred, and he obliged by the Court to joyn or answer. I beg your Lordships pardon if I express it not according to the Rules of Law, but so it was upon some nicety in the Law, Judgement was given against him, and he lost his Wool. This was set forth in a Petition to the Parliament, and put into my hands to move, but there was in our Sessions no Room for Private Grievances, our Publick were so many. And therefore the Gentleman was only pittied among the Number of afflicted Protestants.
The Irish that came in upon the Kings first Proclamation were better used, having the right ways to get their Goods, which few of the English could do.
The next Inquiry, May it please your Lordships, that the Committe of Accounts made, was relating to the Stores, and in the Manage of them, found Mr. Robinson to be principally concerned. The Stores that were left by K. James were said to be great both of Provisions and Cloaths, but of all there did appear nothing: the noise indeed was great that Mr. Robinson had managed the Stores to the Advantage of some body, to the Value of 80000 l. but so ingeniously it is managed that I presume nothing Material can be proved whilst the Manage of that Kingdom in these things are of a piece. Mr. Robinson is besides his other Employments, one of the Deputies to the Lord Coningsby in the Treasury, and who ere has power in that influences most men of Imployment in that Kingdom. One Artifice I was told of by a Commissioner of the forfeited Goods, that was used in Cork, which seemed designed to serve for a pretence in general for the imbezilments of the Stores, and that was keeping Corn, Oats I think it was 5 or 6 foot thick till it rotted, when at the same time both Soldiers and inhabitants were in extremity, this rotting of Corn is thought will be a general Article through the Kingdom, it was said there was quantities of Beef, Butter, and other Provisions put for France, and that a Ship of Wool taken out of the Stores of Waterford by Mr. Robinson under pretence of being used at the [Page]Siege of Cork was disposed by Mr. Robinson, and sometime after, a Ship was taken by o [...] Capt. Peder, Commander of one of their Maj [...]sties Ships coming from B [...]est to Ireland Laden with French Goods, the Captain brought her into Waterford, and there received Orders from the Government to deliver her up to the Officers of the Custom House, for tha [...] she belonged to Dublin, the Captain refusing, threatning Letters came to him, and the [...] he said they had best be quiet, for that he had taken such Letters of their settling a Correspondance in France as would do their Business.
The relation of the Ship I had from a Collonel that is at the Door ready to give you [...] Lordships a more full Account as he had it from the Captains own Mouth.
I shall now with your Lordships leave give the Remarks I made on the Manage of th [...] Treasury, which was never before in the hands of the Chief Governour. The former methods were that all Receipts and Payments were transacted by Exchequer Acquittances and they were entred in several Offices, the last of which was the Pells, where all was entred, and every Munday morning the Book brought before the Chief Governour, by which he knew what was in the Treasury, this cannot now be practicable, where most of the Receipts and Payments are by Paper assignments, by which means there is no Ch [...]cque o [...] the Treasury, nor indeed on the respective Collectors and Receivers, the consequence of which is to be feared has and doth affect the ill payment of the Army, and that ruines th [...] Country, which is the reason of my laying it before your Lordships. There was some motion made in the Parliament of Ireland of the hardships the Country lay under by Free-Quarters, but it was unanimously agreed by the House, that there was a necessity for the Army so to do, and that the Country freely gave them the bread out of their Mouths, and the Cloaths from their Backs to support the Army when they had no Pay. But that which grieved the Subject was the irregular and unlimited way of taking their Corn and Cattel from them, by which more was destroyed then eaten, and that brought a Famine in the Country, and the loss of thousands of people. This was complained of to the Lords Justices, and Offers made by the Country, either to pay the Army, or give them such quantities of Provisions as they should need, and so keep the Country in a possibility of supplying both the Army and themselves. But this was rejected, which together with the belief of that there was enough if rightly applyed of Forfeitures and Stores to have maintained the Army without any burthen to the Country, caused hard reflections on the L. Coningsby, I speak this not to reflect on his Lordship, for that I never had any concern with his Lordship, but as my Estate lay under the common Calamity of his Government. There was another Grievance much complained of, and that was the giving Protections to Irish against just Debts owing to the English, to such as were not under the Articles of Limerick, when poor destroyed Protestants were left to the Irish Suits.
I must now beg leave to lay at your Lordships feet, the present condition of that ever Loyal and obedient City, the City of Dublin, of which I have the Honour to be a Member, this City has never till now been denyed their right of Choosing Magistrates, which under the Cover of a Clause in the new Rules of Proving, is become an imposition, excluding any choice untill the Man put on them to be chosen, this is the case of the pres [...]nt Mayor now in the second year of his Majoralty. The City at first, according to their ancient Custom chose another, but were rejected; I hope your Lordships will not take me to reflect on the Man, when I say as he was the last of many in turn to be chose, so he was the least in his fortune, There being many of considerable Estates, and known integrity and Loyalty to their Majesties over whose heads he came.
[...] must further pray your Lordships leave to mind your Lordships that this Gentleman by [...]nterest of some it is thought that still promotes him, was recommended by his Majesty when [...]reland to be Treasurer of the City, but his Majesty on the first application graciously recal [...] his first recommendation, saying he would abrige none of the Privileges of the City but in [...] Election of this Major, they were not so used by the Lords Justices, and as this Imposition [...]s new unto them, so it was unexpected, having so lately received with their Deliverance▪ Majesties gracious promise that they should enjoy all their Priviledges, and so they did by Majesties Command, untill this Command of the Lords Justices. These new Rules were in [...]ce in the best days Ireland ever saw under the happy Government of the Duke of Ormond; [...] his Grace never made use of them for more than they were intended a power in the hands [...]he Government, to lay aside such as were questionable in their Loyalty, which that City hath [...]er yet been tainted in.
[...] dare not stay your Lordships longer to ennumerate all the oppressions that poor Kingdom [...] under; but what I have said I humbly affirm will be asserted by thousands in Ireland. All [...]ch I humbly pray your Lordships to receive as in truth I intend it, for their Majesties ser [...]e, & the relief of their oppressed Subjects in Ireland among whom I am one.
[...] Obedience to an Order of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, assembled in Parliament, the 28 Feb. [...] 1692. I Sir Will. Gore of Donnegale in the County of Donnegal and Kingdom of Ireland Ba [...]ronet do hereby humbly certify.
[...]Hat a part of their Majesties Forces had free Quarters in the County of Donnegal, & other Counties in the Kingdom of Ireland, during the late War, and sometime after, upon [...]r Majesties Protestant Subjects, and took much of their Goods, for which they did not make [...]isfaction, and that when I demanded Satisfaction of some of the Officers of Collonel Tyffins [...]giment and others who Quartered longest there, they did assure me their pay was stopped [...]atisfie the said Quarters, and what was taken from the Inhabitants by their Men.
That about 1500 Irish Officers and Soldiers, most of them Armed, under the Command of [...]gadier O Donnel (as they stiled him) were quartered for the most part on the Protestant In [...]itant; of the County of Donnegal, with a great rabble of Wives, Children and other depen [...]ts, for a considerable part of the Winter Anno 1691. during which time their Officers took [...] Cattle by force from the Country people, and particularly from James Hammond, and Hugh [...]derson, who live near the Town of Donnegal, by which they and many others were extream [...] improverished, that the said Quarters were not satisfied, or Cattle paid for when I left that [...]gdom, which was about 4 Months ago, nor can I hear that they have been paid for since. That the said Officers and Soldiers were extream insolent during their being quartered as [...]esaid, demanding of me the Abby of Donnegal to say Mass in, and causing their Priest to say [...] publickly in the Town and next house to the Castle of Donnegal, who being rebuked for it [...] he was King Williams Chaplain, as being Chaplain to one of Brigadier O Donnels Regiments [...]t was in the Kings pay, as I was informed by those that spoke to him on this occasion, They [...]re extreamly importunate for liberty to Quarter their Women.
That the method of disarming them was thus, They were warned to appear & bring in their [...]s on a certain day to the Governor of the County, that they knew they were to be disar [...], some of their Officers having told me so, by which means they brought in a most incon [...]rable number of unfixed Arms, and kept the best which I believe they have still, that I pres [...] the Governor of the County to clap up one of the Officers that I knew had a great number [...] Musquets, and did not deliver them, but he excused himself for want of Orders.
That I have been lately informed by Letters, that the Kings Rent which is a Chiefrent pay [...] out of most Estates into the Exchequer of Ireland, are demanded from the most Estates in [...]ght and elsewhere, which may keep waste, none daring to Plant them for fear of being dis [...]ed; That I have received but four Pound since the year 1688. Out of an Estate that pays [...]t 66 l. Yearly into the Exchequer, that by the present Collecting the said Rents many Estates [Page]may be ruined, & run more & more in Arrear, except their Majesties will be pleased to for [...] till the wisdom of a Parliament there, may take such course in it as may be to their satisfact [...]
All which I most humbly certify as truth having been a Spectator of most of the things h [...] in mentioned, as witness my hand this 1st. of March 1692.
Die Jovis 2. Martij 1692.
IN Obedience to your Lordships Commands, to give my Reasons why I did not mention [...] which was given to me for Reasons why those persons that were aggrieved by the Gove [...]ment in Ireland did not complain to the Lords Justices, was this, That they observed and [...] believe nothing was done by the Commissioners of the Revenue but what was agreeable to t [...] Majesties pleasure.
In obedience to your Lordships further Commands, to explain who I mean by saying it [...] thought Mr. Robinson had disposed of the Stores, to the Value of 8000 l. for the use of s [...] Body, I mean my Lord Coningsby and himself.
Your Lordships are further pleased to command me to name who told me that it was t [...] purpose to complain to the Government of any Grievance, and that they should be treated [...] Enemies if they did, was Mr. Joy in the case of his Wool, Mr. Henry Davies in that of the [...] Panns set to Judge Lindon, and by Mr. Cocker in that of the Imbezlement of the Forfe [...] Goods and Stores, He further adding that he had a small Imployment which he believe [...] [...] should have lost if he had appeared in any such thing.
Mr. Edward Haines a Sheriffs Peer, and one of the Common Council of the City of Dub [...] told me, that tho he and several others had a desire to complain of the Grievance in deny [...] the City their Right of Electing their Lord Major, they durst not do it, for that the Lords [...] stices looked upon any that complained as Enemies, and that he was Indicted by the Lord [...] jors order at their own Quarter Sessions, for appearing in the right of the City, tho the p [...] tence was for Words he spake, and the Lord Major being not able to prevail with the Gr [...] Jury to find the Bill, he was Indicted at the Kings Bench, and that he had heard they wo [...] Ruine him. There was Mr. Flood and several others that made Complaints of the like Nat [...]
One of the Earl of Mulgraves Speeches in Parliament about the Bill Entituled An Act for the f [...] dom of Elections and more impartial Proceedings in Parliament, passed in the House of C [...] mons and sent up to the Lords, in the Winter Sessions of Parliament, Anno 1692. as it was t [...] in short hand.
THis Debate is of so very great consequence, that I resolved to be silent, and rather t [...] advised by the ability of others, then to show my own want of it. Besides it is of so [...] a Nature, that I who speak always unpremeditately, apprehend extreamly, saying any th [...] which may be thought the lest reflecting, tho even that ought not to restrain a man here fr [...] doing ones duty to the publick in a Business where it seems to be so highly concerned.
I have always heard, I have always read that Foreign Nations and all this part of the w [...] have admired and envied the Constitution of this Government. For not to speak of the K [...] Power, here is a House of Lords to advise him on all important Occasions about Peace or W [...] about all things that may concern the Nation, the care of which is very much intrusted to [...] Lordships. But yet because your Lordships cannot be so conversant with the generality o [...] [...] People, nor so constantly in the Country as is necessary for that purpose, here is a Hous [...] [...] Commons also chosen by the very people themselves, newly come from among them, or sh [...] be so, to represent all their Grievances, to express the true mind of the Nation, and to dis [...] of their Money, at least so far as to begin all Bills of that nature; & if I am not mistaken the [...] writ for Election sent down to the Sheriffs does impower them to chuse, what? their Representa [...]
Now my Lords, I beseech you to consider the meaning of that word Representative. Is i [...] [...] do any thing contrary to their mind? it would be absurd to suppose it; and yet how can [...] [Page] [...]herwise, if they, after being chosen, change their dependency, ingage themselves in Employments plainly inconsistent with that great trust reposed in them: and that I will take the liberty [...]o demonstrate to your Lordships they now do, at least according to my humble opinion.
I will instance first, in the least and lowest incapacity they must be under who so takes imployments.
Your Lordships all know but too well what a general carelessness there appears every day, more and more in the publick Business; if so how is it likely that men should be as diligent in their Duty in Parliament as that Business requires, where imployments, and a great deal of other business shall take up both their minds and their time.
But then in some cases 'tis worse, as in Commands of the Army and other Imployments of that kind, when they must have a divided Duty: for it does admirably become an Officer to [...]it Voting away Money in a House of Commons, while his Soldiers are perhaps taking it away at their Quarters for want of his presence to restrain them, and of better Discipline among them. Nay perhaps his Troop or Regiment may be in some Action abroad, and he must either have the shame of being absent from them at such a time, or from that House where he is intrusted with our Liberties.
To this I have heard but one Objection by a noble Lord, that if this Act should pass, the King [...]s not allowed to make a Captain a Collonel, without disabling him to sit in Parliament.
Truly if a Captain has only deserved to be advanced for exposing himself in Parliament, [...] think the Nation would have no great loss in the Kings letting alone such a Preferment.
But my Lords, there is another sort of incapacity yet worse then this, I mean that of Parliament Mens having such Places in the Exchequer, as the very profit of them depends on the Money given to the King in P rliament.
Would any of your Lordships send and intrust a Man to make a Bargain for you, whose very interest shall be to ma [...]e you give as much as he can possibly?
It puts me in mind of a Farce, where an Actor holds a Dialogue with himself speaking first in one Tone, and then answering himself in another.
Really my Lords this is no Farce, for tis no laughing matter to undoe a Nation: but tis altogether as unnatural for a Member of Parliament to ask first in the Kings name for such a sort of supply, give an Account from him of how much is needful towards the paying such an Army or such a Fleet, and then immediatly give, by his ready Vote, what he had before asked by his Masters order.
Besides my Lords, there is such a necessity now for long sitting of Parliaments, and the very Priviledges belonging to Members are of so great extent, that it would be a little hard and unequal to other Gentlemen, they should have all the places also.
All the Objections that have been made may be reduced to these:
First, tis told us, that tis a disrespect to the King, that his Servants or Officers should be excluded
To this I desire it may be considered, that tis in this case, as when a Tenant sends up any body to treat for him: would any of your Lordships think it a disrespect, nay would the King himself think it any, if the Tenant would not wholly refer himself to one of your own Servants, [...] to the Kings Commissioners in the case of the Crown? And if he chuses rather some plain [...] [...]est Friend of his own to supply his absence here, will any man blame such a Proceeding, or [...]k it unmannerly?
Besides your Lordships know this Act admits them to be chosen, notwithstanding their imployments, provided the Electors know it first, and are not deceived in their choice.
All we would prevent is that a good rich Corporation should not chuse to Intrust with all their Libertys a plain honest Country Neighbour, and find him within six Months, changed into [...] prefer'd cunning Courtier, who shall tyd them to their Cho [...]ce, tho he is no more the same man, than if he were turned Papist, which by the Law as it stands already, puts an incapacity upon him.
Another Objection is, that this Act, may by its Consequence, prolong this Parliament which they allow would be a very great Grievance, and yet suppose the King capable of putting it upon us, which I have too much Respect for him to admit of; tho I am glad howeve [...] that tis objected by Privy Counsellers in favour, who consequently I hope will never advise [...] thing which they now exclaim against as so great a Grievance.
But pray my Lords what should tempt the King to so ill a policy? Can he fear a freedom of Choice in a people, to whose good will he owes all his Power, which these Lords suppose he may use to their Prejudice?
And therefore give me leave to say, as I must not suspect him of so ill a Design as the Perpetuating this Parliament, so he cannot, he ought not to suspect a Nation so intirely, I was going t [...] say, so fondly Devoted to him.
My Lords, O Man is readier then my self to allow that we owe the Crown all submission as to the time of calling Parliaments according to Law, and appointing also where they shall sit, but with reverence be it spoken, the King owes the Natio [...] an intre freedom in Chusing their Representatives, and it is no less his Duty to God then his true interest, that such a fa [...] and just proceeding should be used towards us.
Consider my Lords of what mighty consequence it may he, that so many Votes should be free, when upon one single one may depend the whole security or loss of this Nation. By one single Vote such things may happen, that I almost tremble to think on. By one single Vote a GENERAL EXCISE may be granted and then we are all lost. By one single Vote the Crown may be impowered to name all the Commissioners for raising the Taxes, and then surely we should be in a fair way towards it.
Nay whatever has happened may again be apprehended; and I hope those reverend Prelates will reflect, that if they gro [...] once obnoxious to a prevalent Party, one single Voice may be as dangerous to that Bench, as a general dissatisfaction amo [...] the People proved to be once in a late Experience: which I am far from saying by way of threatning, but only by way of cautio [...]
My Lords. WE may think because this concerns not the house of Lords, that we need not be so over careful of th [...] Matter, but there are Noblemen in France, at least such as were so before they were enslaved, who that they might dom [...] neer over others, and serve a present turn perhaps, let all things alone so long till the people were quite Mastered, and the Nobility themselves too, to bear them company.
So that I never met a French man, even of the greatest rank (and some had 10000 Pistols a year in employments) that di [...] not envy us here for our freedom from that which they groan under: and this I have observed universally, except just Monsieu [...] de Louvoy, Mon. Colbert, or such People, because they were the Ministers themselves who occasioned these Complaints, an [...] thrived by the Oppressions of others.
My Lords, This Country of ours is very apt to be provoked, we have had a late experience of it, and tho no wise man, bu [...] would bear a great deal rather then make a bustle; yet really the people are otherwise, and will at any time change a presen [...] uneasiness, for any other condition, tho a worse; we have known it so too often, and sometimes repented it too late.
Let them not have this new Provocation in being debarred from any Security in their Representatives, for malicious People will not fail to infuse into their minds that all those vast sums, which have been and still must be raised towards this War, are no [...] disposed away in so fair a manner as ought to be; and I am afraid they will say their mony is not given but taken.
However whatere success this Bill may may have with your Lordships, there must needs come some good Effect of it: for if it passes it will give us security; if it be obstructed it will give us warning. I humbly move your Lordships that the Bill may be committed.
After which it being put to the question whether the bill should be rejected or committed, it was carried for the bill by 15. Votes, there being only 32 against it, and 47 for it, amongst which latter were 5 Bishops; but it was so late, that many of the last refused to stay, and so it was deferred to a further day, by which time so many Proxies were obtained, as threw out the Bill as nine a Clock at night by 2 Votes.
Note, The occasion of all this was their having been several other Prisoners as well as these Lords brought to the Kings Bench, here was an Affidavit of Aaron Smith drawn privately at somebodys Chamber so equivocally that instead of the word Witnesses, according to the Statute, he only swore there was Evidence against each Prisoner, and at the end of it, instead of Witnesses against each Prisoner, the Affidavit only mentioned Witnesses against the Prisoners, by all which he saved himself from being forsworn, so preventing any punishment, from being prosecuted by the the Prisoners and his Affidavit served for [...] tho' but an ill one for the Judges to remand the Prisoners back, they supposing there were two Witnesse against each of the Prisoners. Note also, While this was under examination, the Judges shewed plainly they had not doubted of the Equivocation, but hoped it was sufficient to warrant, or at least to excus [...] their Proceedings, which perhaps had never thus luckily come to light, if Peers had not been concerned to bring it into their House by the order of which entred in their Books the subjects of all Ranks are better secured ever after. These Notes should have been inserted after the 17 day of Sep. 1692.
Note, That Precedence is not observed in the House of Lords, where they Signe Protestations. He that draws them up Signs first, and then others as they come to the Books.