Of his PROBABILITIES,

THE first meanes whereby Mr BERNARD would disswade from the truth, which he calleth Brownisme, are Probabilities or lik [...]lihoods that the way is not good: and they are in number (as himselfe hath cast them,) seuen.

• 1. The Novelty of it.
• 2. The agreement thereof with ancient schismatiks.
• 3. The ill meanes by which it is mayteyned, namely, by abuse of scripture & deceauable reasonning.
• [Page 89]4. The want of approbation of the reformed Churches.
• 5. The conde [...]nation thereof by all their Diuines, (vidz of the church of England.)
• 6. Gods iudgment against it
• 7. The [...]ll success [...] it hath had.

Such l [...]kelihoods as these, the Papists heretofore with as much colour and truth, haue alleged against the church of England; heathens and e­nemies haue in former ages obiected the l [...]ke things to the church of Christ, and Mr Ber. speaketh but that which hath been spoken before him, fulfill [...]ng the meas [...]re of his forefathers. But to the particulars.

The Nov [...]lty he maketh to be in differing from all the best reformed chur­ches in Christendome But if a Papist had to deal with him, 1 Liklihood See Kelli sons Survey of the new r [...]ligi [...]n 1 b [...]ok chap, 1 5, & 2, book c. 2. he would bring those reformed churches also within the c [...]mpasse of Novel [...]y: and then Mr Bern. would flee, (as his brethren before him haue done) to the scriptures for antiquity: as he would answer a Papist, so w [...]ll I an­swer him; let the scriptures speak for the differences between other churches and vs. But here Mr Bern. is mute; and medleth not with th [...]s controversie he thought belike the very name of Noveltie and of the re­formed churches would fray the simple

If it be Nouelty to differ from the reformed churches, then may he blame his own church [...]f Engl. more then vs, seing it differeth from those chur­ches in m [...]e and weightier poynts then we doe: yea it hateth persecuteth silēceth & excommunicateth those ministers & people, that stand vp & plead for such things as the reformed churches haue and practise. Agayn these churches haue reiected and writen against many of the Antichr [...]stian enormities that are now in England. So if it be likely, we are not in the truth because we d [...]ffer from the churches in few things; it is more likely Mr Bern. and his brethren, are not in the truth, because they differ from them in many Wherefore let him first pull the beam out of his own eye. Agayn where he standeth vpon the hard words which some of vs haue vttered of the Presbytery &c. if he had not an evill and par­tial eye he mought haue seen many moe hard & reproachful words vsed by his right reverend Fathers, and fellow priests against the Presbytery and discipline which the reformed churches haue, and the reforming ministers of Engl. would haue. That still his weapon entreth into his own bowels.

His 2 likelihood he maketh to be our agreement with ancient schisma­tiks: yet any poynts wherein we agree with them in evill, Likelie­hood. he nameth not much le [...]e proueth; but referreth us to Mr Giffords paynes herein, who had long since his answer by Mr Greenwood to every particular of that his pretended consimillitude between the Donatists and vs; to which an­swer I r [...]ferr the reader. Agayn, this obiection is such as the Papists make against the church of England for so The three cōu [...]rsiōs of Engl. par [...] 2 c. 12 s. 19 &c. N. D. compareth Protes­ [...]nts with Donatists; and let vs see what answer the Priests of England [Page 90] can make for themselues that will not as well, if not better, clear vs And to come a little neare to this o [...]r aduersary, we could p [...]t Mr Ber. in mind of his own wayes, wherein he might see himselfe more like a schismatik then any of vs: for we openly professe our departure fr [...]m the ch [...]rch of England, as from a false church, so proued by evident gro [...]nds out of G [...]ds word; whereas Mr Bernard holding it to be a true ch [...]rch & ab [...]ding in it, yet he and a hundred with him, made not long since a pretended co [...]enant tog [...]ther; whereby they separated from the vnpreaching ministers, and all that hate to be reformed Yet are those rea [...]ing priests of as [...]ood authority by the Lawes and Canons of that Church as himself, and the Conformists of farr greater esteem in this church, then the Reformists. Whether this be not a playne schisme, and Mr Bern a factious person thus to carry h [...]mselfe in a church, let himselfe say: as also whether he be not f [...]r this, ipso [...]acto excomm [...]nicated, by force of the [...]r own Canon which sayth,

Constit, & Can. eccles. 1603. Can 9. Whosoeuer shall hereafter separate themselues from the Communion of Saincts as it is approued by the Apostles rules in the Church of England, and combine themselues together in a new brotherhood, accounting the Christi [...]ns who are conformable to the doctrine, gouernments, rites and ceremonies of the church of England to be profane and vnmeet for them to ioyne with in Christian profession: let them be excommunicated ipso facto, and not restored but by the Archbishop after their repentance and publick reuocation of such their wicked errors. Into like danger doth he come by Canon. 11, and 12.

[...] Likelie­hood.The il meanes, by which our cause is mainteyned, he make [...]h to be strange expositi [...]n of scripture, &c.

First Mr Bern. here walketh still in the Papists steps, who obiect the like vnto the Protestants. Let an indifferent reader ( Kellis, Suruey, 1. book chap, 5 say they) peruse the learnedst book of these reformers, and he shall see in them false allegations of Fa­thers, corruptions of scriptures, fathers, and councels &c. Sec [...]dly I answer our expositions may seeme strange to such as are themselues strangers from God: but the Godly wise can discerne, to whom (if they haue read our books,) I leane the iudging of this probability. Now th [...]s old calumniatiō which Satā layd vpō the Sainct, how truly Mr B [...]rn. hath layd vp­on vs, let his proofs shew, which are in these two particulars. First, that one of us sayth, All the truth is not taught in the Church of E [...]gland, and to proue this, Act. 20 21. is cited. Which one of vs thus citeth Act. 20 and where; Mr Bern. nameth not. Good cause we haue to suspect his faith­fulnes; for in his book he chargeth vs with some errors, which we hold not, as after shall appear. And he that would so iniury the whole, what may we think he w [...]ll doe for a part. I suppose therefore the party ci­ted that scripture to proue the whole truth ought to be taught which because it may be questioned whether it be needfull at all times, there­fore the Apostles example is brought. As for the Priests of England, [...] [Page 91] they preach not the whole truth, is proued by their dayly practise, who balk many truthes, touching the church, ministery worship, governmen [...] &c. as all that obserue their doctrines know very well. It is proued [...]l­so by the lawes and canons of their church, which excommunicate [...]ll such as shall by the truth reproue the falsehoods and abominations that are among them, as before in pag, 55. this treatise is shewed. And Mr Bern. is very silly, if he exspect any scriptures to proue what is now taught in his church. Furthermore if it be granted him, that Act. 20. were by some one of vs alleged for the purpose he pretend [...]th: yet it is no more l [...]ke­lihood that our cause is evill, then that his brethrens cause and plea a­gainst vs is evill, for they without all doubt doe allege scriptures for to proue things done in Engl: which it is not posible by the scripturs for to shew, See before in this book pag. 43. &c 44. But what speak I of others Mr Bern, himsefe is fayn to vse such colours, els would the glory of his church soon fade: for in the 48, page of his book he allegeth God for witnes that they are his people, 1 by giuing them his word, Psa, 147.19 20. 2 by his effectuall working thereby, Ier, 22, 22, therefore there is the voyce of the sonne of God, Ioh. 5.25, &c. If these be found and sufficient proofs, that England hath Gods word, because Israel had it, and so in the rest; then why may not men allege like Scriptures and proofs against them, say­ing, They are stayned with their own works, and goe a whoring with their own inuentions; Psal. 106, 39. from the Prophets of Ierusalem, is hyprocrisie gone forth into all the Land, Ier. 23.15, I haue not sent these Prophets sayth the Lord: yet they ran &c. Ier. 23.21. and the like. So then Mr Bern. must eyther bring better reasons for himselfe, or els he may blush to blame o­thers for that wherein himself is more faulty then they; if they be faulty at all.

The other particular which he specifieth is, that places setting forth the inuisible church &c. we bring to set forth the visible church by; as namely; 1. Pet. 2.9, 10. But Mr Bern. shewes his reader no reason at all, why that Scripture must be vnderstood of the inuisible church, as he Sayth; and it is an easie matter for him to find faults without reasō, in any mās writing. That place of Peter, (as the wise reader may perceiue,) Speaketh of and to the visible or Sensible church: for th' Apostle wrote to the visible chri­stians, the 1 Pet, 1.1 strangers that then dwelt in Pontus Galatia, &c. and this which he speaketh to them in Chap· 2, 9.10. is as Moses of old spake to the visible church of Israel, Exod. 19:6. Againe, he mentioneth the end of their calling to this dignity, vidz. to shew forth the vertues of him that had called them out of darknes into his maruelous light; which whether it appertaynes not to the visible church, I leaue it for euery true member thereof to iudge. And such as these, 4 Likeli­hod. are the exceptions that D. Allison (to whome he referreth us,) tooke heretofore: which because they are vnworthy a Dr. of Diuinity, we haue though best to passe by, as vnwor­thy of reply, till further occasion.

The 4. likelihood is, that we haue not the approbation of any reformed churches [Page 92] Churches for our cause. This is much like his first probability, before an­swered, and seemeth to be a mayn propp to vphold the church of En­gland, which loue to make flesh their arme. The reader may see this poynt Pag. 9. & [...]7, &, 51. pag. 10 & 27, &c [...]7, &, 51. &c thrise vrged before in this book, and Apol part 6 [...]. 18. [...]. 1. thrise answered. I referr him also to our Letters vnto Mr Iunius whome Mr Bern. mentioneth: & finally to the Apologie of the church of England, where themselues say, vn­to the like obiections of the Papists, [...], Lik [...]ly­hood th [...] truth of the Gospel of Iesus Christ dependeth not upon councels, (add also, nor vpon Churches;) nor as S. Paul sayth, vpon the iudgements of mortall creatures.

The 5. is, the condemnation of this way by the Diuines (of England) both liuing and dead, &c. But this is no other likelihood then it is like Mr Bern. (if he had then liued) would haue alleged against Christ himselfe, when the learned Priests, Rabbines, and Diuines of Israel, condemned his way and doctrine Ioh. 7.48.49. & 19, 7. &c. If these learned En­glish Di [...]ines haue confuted vs, let Mr Bern. or any shew the scriptures and reasons by which they haue done it: if they were our aduersaries without reason, (as some of them he mentioneth, shew little or none at all,) wise men will esteem them accordingly But if such a Diuine as Bredwel doe but call our curse a by-path, this sentence is authentik ye­nough, for Mr Bern to put in [...] 1. Likelie [...]ood. his book.

The 6. is, the Lords iudgement giuing sentence with them (of England) & against vs. These things as they are before more prudently urged, both for the good successe of the English ministers, and bad ys [...]ue of many of vs, so I leaue the reader vnto the answers before made pag, 13. &c, 23. &c. Onely I would advise Mr Bern. to look better to his words, when he next write, and not to set down such positions, as may tend to Atheis­me or Iudaisme; as wherein his brother Boltons case that hanged himself he pag. 34. Sayth, which end the Lord letteth not his speciall instruments to come vnto, &c. A Iew vpon this graunt, would trouble Mr Bernard to defend Christianity; seeing Act. 1.17, [...]. Iudas hanged himself, who was a farr more speciall instrument of the Lord, being an Apostle; then Bolton that was but a ru­ling Elder; and not the first brocher of this way, as Mr Bern. very vntruely (vpon Mr Giffords report, if he so reported) doth allege. Besides that Iudas after a sort repented and acknowledged his sinne, and was not (that we know of) excommunicate, yet came to that woefull end; wher­as Bolton for revolting from his faith at Paules crosse, was dealt with, ex­communicated, and so died (for ought that is knowen) without repen­tance, a member of Mr Bernards church. See before, pag. 23.

[...] [...]ikelie­ [...]d.The 7. is, the ill successe it hath had, these very many yeares, being no more increased.

The naturall man perceiueth not the things of God; but iudging by the outward appearance, giues vnrighteous iudgement. If M. Bernard had liued in Noahs dayes, and seen his 120. yeares labours and preaching spent in vayn, how would he haue stumbled at the work of God, that [Page 93] gaue his word no other effect in the world? And loe it is written Luk, 17.26. as it was in the dayes of Noe, so shall it be in the Dayes of the Son of man. But had Mr Bern. bene in the dayes following, when Israel very few in number Psa, 105, 12.13. walked from nation to nation, from one kingdome to an other people, and notwithstanding the Ge [...], 15. promise of multiplication, yet in 200. yeares and mo [...], had increased but vnto Deut, 10.22. 70. sowles, and as many moe yeares were in Aegyptian bondage: and had he in the mean while seen the Gen, 17.20. Princes of Israel, and Gen 36, 15. &c. Dukes of Esau with the ver 3 c 1 & Kings that raigned in his land, before any King in Israel. how would this man (may we think) haue gathered likelihoods, or rather haue concluded out of doubt against the poor afflicted church of God? But it is no new thing to hear this pleading from such carnall gospellers. Wel, not totell him of Gods gracious work in bringing many to this truth and causing moe to listen after it dayly, let Mr Bern. look to himselfe and his fellow Re­formists, and if his right eye be not blent, let him acknowledge Gods hand a [...]ainst themsel [...]es, who heretofore had so many fautors, and that not of the meanest in the land: yet now are repressed as troublers of the church, and their counterfeyt reformation further from all likelihood of effecting then was at the first. And this much of his vnlikely likelihoods.

Of his REASONS.

HIS reasons now follow, of more force (as he pag. 44. pretends) then his bare probabilities. These are three fold, taken 1 from the evill of the entrāce, in to this way; 2 from our persons so greueously sinning in this way; 3 from our opinions which are altogether erroneous and false.

The first sort of reasons, haue this foundation. 1. The evil of the entrance.

The entrance is very sinful and cursed. Because of these 2 great evils. 1 That we doe not onely condemn corruptions and the notorius wic­ked, but also forsake pag, 44, all former Christian profession amongst them. A man must cast off that word there with them which made them aliue; also the faithfull messengers of God, the Fathers which begat him: yea he must renounce all fellowship of the godly there &c.

But we may with the Prophet truely complayn of this man, Answer. that his mouth is Psa. 10.7 [...] full of cursing and deceit and frawd; for how often haue we in our publick writings protested our consent in all the holy doctrines that themselues professe: onely because we cannot enioy them without Antichristian abominations; which the Prelates impose, and the Priests and people practise we haue separated from those assemblies, where idolatry is publickly set vp and maynteined from those blinde guides that would seem to make concord between light and darknes, Christ and Beliall, and vnder shew of many truthes, seduce mens sowles vnto de­struction. Did the church of England forsake all former christian professi­on among the Papists, when they left the Pope and some of his Prelates, [Page 94] Masse, images &c. If not; then neyther doe we that haue left but the remnants of Popery yet reteyned; and doe walke in the truth to our knowledge and utmost power as God inableth vs; not casting off any jote of his word, nor any faithfull messenger of his, or other godly per­son, as this adversary calumniateth. His hart knowes better, though it sendeth forth such bitter waters.

2. Next this he sayth pag, 46. with such a renunciation of truth, must be reteyned, much vntruth: the particulars are 1 that men must beleeu our way to be the truth of God; 2 and then condemn their church as a false church.

Answer.Whether our way be not the truth of God, let the Godly iudge by his word; by it also let them try the estate of the church of England. But Mr Bern. begging the question, will haue things to be taken for un­truthes, before triall or due conviction. To help himselfe he seekes ad­vantage by that we haue published as he sayth vnder our hand, that the dif­ferrences between vs and them, are onely such corruptions as are by vs set downe. Though the word onely be not ours, but Mr Bern. own; yet to let this passe as ordinary with him, what gathers he from it? Corruptions saith he, doe not mak [...] a false church, but a corrupt church, (make the worst of it that can be;) as corruptions in a man, maketh but a corrupt man, and not a false man. First let the reader obserue that he speaks not a word of those cor­ruptions which we set down; neyther indeed is he able with our corrup­tion to plead for them. Secondly it is very corrupt and grosse that he would perswade, no corruptions can make a church to be false: for then rebellious Israel, though they Zeph. 3.7 corrupted al their works, was a true chuch still; but Moses foretold that for Deut 32, 5 corrupting themselues, they should be none of Gods children but a froward and crooked generation. Now let Mr Bern make the best of it he can. His simillitude of a man is not fit in this case. A man is a substance, but a church consisteth in relation or reference to Christ, as a wife to her husband. But if a mans wife play the whore neuer so often and openly, she may be, by Mr Bern. doctrine esteemed a corrupt but not a false wife. Such distinctiō he may cary to the stewes. Corruptions there may grow in churches and they yet be true churches as at Reu 2.14 15. Pergamus, ver. 20. &c. Thyatira, &c. corruptions also there may be that will make true churches false; as in Israel and Rome, where first wre as­semblies of Saincts; afterward they became Eze 23, [...] Chro. 11.15. Reu 17 1, &, 18, 2 whores and habitations of Diuils. And there may be such corruptions in the constituting of a church that embraceth much truth, as will make it from the first a false church, as in Samaria, 2. Kin. 1 [...], 27.28. &c

2 The per­sons gree­uously sin­ning &c. 1 Syn.HIs second sort of reasons, is from the greeuous sinns that are among v [...], by reason whereof (from our own ground) we may not (sayth he) be ioyned with. The sinns he reckneth 6.

First, that woefull entrance before named. I answer, that Mr Bern. en­tred into this reason with vntruth, and continued in it with begging the [Page 95] question, as before is shewed. So that this his obiection is very wofull a [...]d the man deser [...]eth rather to be pitied then answered in his i [...]le [...] made without proof.

THe second is a hie degree of vnthankfulnes both to God that begat vs [...]ly, [...]is word, and to our mother the church of Engl. that bar [...] vs. I answer, 2. Syn. [...] thank God for that knowledge of him wh [...]ch we atteyned vnto in the Church of England, and are thankfull also (as is meet) to all the instruments which God hath vsed to bring vs vnto knowledge: but now when God hath shewed vs a further truth, (as what ch [...]l [...]e of his, seeth not more dayly,) we should shew great vnthankf [...]lnes if we would not walk in it, much more if we should blaspheme and persecute it, as Mr. Bern. and many of his fellow Priests doe, strugling against the light that shineth vpon them; A papist may haue occasion of thankfulnes vnto G [...]d a [...]d men, for the knowledge of God and Christ which he hath get in th [...] Ro [...]ish church, farr abo [...]e that which he could haue had among Pagans: yet if vpon sight of the errors in Popery, he forsake that false church and ioyne to some other true, no man can without vngodlynes, condemne him of vnthankfulnes. The Papists heretofore haue vsed such reasons as these aga [...]nst the Protestants; now they, for want of better apply them a [...]inst vs.

T [...]e third sinne imputed to vs is, 3. Syn. that we are full of spirituall vnchari­blenes First toward th [...]m that will not goe our way, nor be inclinable to vs whome (he sayth) we deeply censure and deadly condemn.

First, this also is an old popish cauill, Answer. vsed often against the Protes­ta [...]ts. One Kellison, Suru [...]y 1 book 4 chap telleth them, they deserue the punishments of Parricides, for scoffing, taunting, contemning and reviling their forefathers.

2. Our vncharitablenes, (if such it be) is this, that we pray for and wish vnto all, as to our own sowles, even life and peace we seek to couer a multitude of sinns which then is done, when sinners Iam 5, 20 are con­verted from going astray. And for this cause we speak that which we beleeue and know, though the world therfore hate vs.

3 C [...]nsu [...] or condemn those that go not our way we doe not, we know every man shall stand or fall to his own master. It is the sinne onely which we condemn, the sinner we seek to saue, leauing him to the Lord who shall iudge both him and vs at the last day.

4. But how charitable the ministers of England are vnto vs let thei [...] continuall reproches and vituperies in pulpit and in print shew: and how they censure and condemn vs and all that will not goe their way; let Mr. Bernards own book speake where by the sentence of his godly minis­ters, every one is damned, as pag, 263. cutting himselfe off from Christ, whosoeuer wittingly and continually separateth from the church of Englād, where yet so innumerable abominations and idolatries doe abound.

2. Secondly our vncharitablenes (as pag; 52, he sayth) is a most vngodly de­sire as ever was heard of, to haue the w [...]rd vtterly extinguished among them, [Page 96] Aegyptian darknes to come over them, rather then that it should be preachedly such as doe not fauour our course &c.

Answer.Our desire is, that the Aegyptian darknes which now couereth the land by meanes of the false Prophets that are therein, were done away; and that the true light of the Gos [...]ell were risen vnto them. We are sory to see the prophets (which haue night for a vision and darknes for a divina­tion, as Mic. 3.6, was threatned of God,) [...]o to deceiue the people, by preaching lyes in the name of the Lord, when he neuer sent them Christ hath no need of such falsers to help up h [...]s k [...]ngdome he hath wayes and meanes yenough, by his own ordināce & min [...]stery to build vp his [...]hurch, though Antichrists clergie be sent back to the bottomles pit from whence Rev. 9. they came. We know men gather not Mat 7, 16 grapes of thornes nor figs of thistles. Lamentable experience these many yeres, sheweth what hurt and mise­ry commeth by this false hierarchy and priesthood, which vpholds ido­latry, profanenes, and humane traditions; pleads for sinne, and against the truth; to the destruction of mens sowles. We wish people therfore to beware of false prophets, though they come in sheeps clothing; and to seek the Lord by his own ministery, not by Ant christs: for the theefe commeth not Ioh 10, 10 but to steal, to kill and to d [...]stroy. Let them see by the lamps of God in his own Sanctuary and Candlestick, and walke in the light of Ierusalem his church, which Isa. 60.1, 2.3, Reu. 21, 24, hath the glory of God arisen vpon it leauing Vr of the Chaldees, and walking no long [...]r in the light of the fire and sparks that men haue kindled to themselues least Isa 50 11 they lie down in sorow.

3. The last poynt of our vncharital lenes, wh [...]ch M. Bern. pag. 56. sayth is the highest degree of all, is that we are sorry and en [...]ious that the good things of God doe prosper with them. &c.

Answer.That the good things of God doe prosper with them, and the truth preuail manger all opposition; we haue cause to reioyce for, and doe reioyce, Yea and we doubt not, but the enuious writings and dealings of Mr. Bern and his fellowes, against the gospell, God will turne to the furtherance of the same; and the generation Psa 112.2 of the righteous shalbe blessed which the wicked vers. 10, shal see and fret and gnash their teeth and pine a­way; when their desire shall perish. But what are the good things Mr. Bern. meaneth? Not the truth of God indeed, for that he blasphemeth and writeth against as Schisme and Brownisme. Nor the reformists cause, called Puritanisme; for that prospereth not, as all men see, but decrea­seth dayly. The Prelates are the men that prevayl, for a wh [...]le; their ca­nons are confirmed, their ceremonies flourish, and their hornes are ex­alted. Whether M, Bern, himselfe (who wrote not l [...]ng since a book a­gainst them, which also he was willing a gentleman should haue prin­ted in his own name, that M, Bern. might haue slept in a wh [...]le [...] whither himselfe I say, and his fellow Reformists who are disa [...]oynt [...]d of their hope, be not sorry for this prosperitie, let themselues say. As for vt [Page 97] we haue learned [...]sal. 37. not to fret or en [...]y when we see the wicked flourish; for they shall so [...]n be cut down as grasse, and wither as the green herb. Sory we are indeed for their lamentable estate and desire that they may find mercy, at the hands of the Lord.

Our fo [...]rth kind of sinne, he sayth is, our abusing of the werd, misaleging and [...] it, &c. The 4 syn. This was the third of his probabilities before pag. 90. an­swered, and is here for a shew mustred agayn among our sinns; but na­kedly and without all proof: I leaue it therefo [...]e to the reproof of God; and to the godly iudgements of all that shall read our writings and alle­gations of the scriptures.

The 5. sinne is our wilfull persisting in our schisme. The 5. syn This is agayn to beg the question, first let it appear to be schisme that we are in, let the rea­sons a [...]d grounds of our separation be orderly dealt in, and soundly convinced by Gods word: then if we yeild not, let vs be holden wilfull. O­therweise, to persist in wel doing is good And as easily do the Papists cal Protestants schismaticks, as they vs. Whether M Bernard with all the helps that he hath had from other men, hath conuinced vs of schisme, let the godly judge. If reproching of vs, and idle excursions into by matters, be a conuiction; doubtle [...]e he hath done it better then any before him.

The 6. syn, is our rayling and s [...]ffing, The 6 syn and (as he sayth) Henry Barrowes blasphemies, who hath [...]gr [...]giously abused all their holyest exercises of religion, &c. I answer, if such sinne be in any of vs, it is even by our selues con­demned; and [...]f by humane infirmity any haue been ouertaken with vn­seasoned speeches, we desire the Christian reader to bear with and par­don it in vs, as himselfe would haue pardon of God The like hath Mr. Barr [...] earnestly intreated in his Preface to his Discouery, as the reader may see; so farr was he from delighting in such wayes.

Secondly I answer (howsoeuer I will not justify all the words of ano­ther man, nor yet mine own, for in many things we sinne all;) that many of the th [...]ngs which this man counteth raylings, scoffs and blasphemies, are no other speaches them the hol [...] Ghost hath vsed before vs in the scrip­tures, and appl [...]ed to like persons; and seemed as harsh to men of those times, as these doe to men now.

Thirdly it is l [...]kely that some be rather the printers fault (vnlesse Mr. Bernard hath forged them himselfe), then Mr Barrowes.

Fourthly the Reformists themselus, amongst whome Mr Bern. sometimes seemed one, haue uttered as hard speeches against the Prelate [...] & other corruptions of their own church; though now like time seruers they gloze with their reuerend Fathers; as this man maketh the first of Mr Barrowes raylings scoffs and blasphemies to be his caling the Bishops It would be knowne what Mr B [...]rn, counted & caled them in his book that of late he wrote against them. Antichristian. But how many volum [...]s haue themselues heretofore written of this argument? And who amongst vs hath euer dealt as did Mar­ [...]in Marprelate among themselues?

[Page 98]Finally Mr. Barrow did sharply in [...] against the reforming prea­chers, as being the greatest deceiuers of the people, vnder shew of holi­nes. This maketh them a [...]ayn so e [...]er agai [...]st him; but whither he spake not right of them, may in part be seen already, & time will shew more; they can no longer halt as hitherto they haue; but eyther they must re­c [...]ncile them to th [...]ir Fath [...]rs, or quite forsake them: and a ble [...]sed work of God it is, that the most dangerous seducers should thus first be disco­u [...]d.

THe third and last sort of reasons which M. Bern. [...]ag., 78 &c. 1. Error. vseth against vs, is, Our errors, and (as he sayth) the matter of our s [...]hisme.

The errors which he reckneth vp, and vndertaketh to confute ar [...] ten. The first of them is that we hold the constitution of their church to be a false constitution. To this he sayth,

1. That we cannot proue this simply by any playn doc [...]rine of scrip­ture &c. 2. That it is against the euidence of the scriptures, which ma­keth the word, (Mat. 28.19. Mar 16 15. 2 Cor. 5.19. &. 11 2. Iob, 23.23.24. Act. 2.14.37.38. & 16.32.33.) the externall profe [...]sion Act. 8.12.37.38.) and Sacraments (Mat. 28, 19. 1 Cor. 10.16.) the visible and true constitution of a company so gathered and kn [...]t together; and so was theirs constituted: as that book of (Mr. Ber.) sheweth; and as in ano­ther ere long shalbe plainly manifested &c. Answer.

First Mr Ber. setteth down barely this as our position and doctrine, not name [...]ng place or bo [...]k where it is written, nor the proofs that we make of it, but perem [...]torily sayth we cannot proue it. Whereas it hath in Discouery Resut of Giff. Con­fessiō Apology. Answer to Mr. Ia­cob &c. many books by many playn doctrines of scripture been euidently proued, so as Mr Bern. and all his fellow priests could neuer yet, make a playn and direct answer And if when book is writen after booke, no refutation be made, but a bare deneyall, as here M. Bern. sayth we can­not proue it, I say the ministers of Engl. may so turne away any thing; but with what credit or conscience, the wise will judge.

Secondly, for M. Bernards reason, it selfe wanteth a good constituti­on, being to confu [...]edly set down, as a man knowes not what he makes the constitution of a church; or how he would conclude that their church is constituted aright. He pretends the word to be the Constitution of a church; whereas the scriptures that he quoteth, and reason it selfe might teach him, that the word is the instrument or meanes of Constituting, & conseruing the church constituted; so also be the sacraments. But as the constitution of a common wealth or of a city is a gathering and vni­ting of people togither into a ciuill polity: so the Constitution of the common wealth of Israel, (as the church is Eph. 2, 12 called) and of the city of God the new Ierusalem, is a gathering and vniting of people into a diuiue po­litie: the form of which polity is Order, as the heathens acknowledged, calling polity, [...] Arist, 3. Polit, c. 1. an order of a city: which Order is requisite in all actions and administrations of the church as the Apostle * sheweth, and special­ly [Page 99] specially in the constitution thereof: so that next vnto faith in God, it [...]s to be esteemed most necessary for all holy societies Wherefore Pa [...]l rejoyced for these two things in the Church at Col [...]ss [...], C [...]lo. 2.5 euen their order, & their stedfast faith in Christ. Now whereas to the constit [...]tiō of a ch [...]rch there belong [...] a people, as the matt [...]r whereof, and 2 a calling, gathe­ring and vniting togither, as the form whereof the church consisteth. in both these the Constitution of the Church of Engl. hath (in sundry trea­tises) been [...]roued false. For with them all sorts of profane worldly and wicked [...]ersons, are receiued as the matter whereof the church is buil­ded, contrary to the [...]layn and manifest doctrine of the scriptures. Leu. 20.24 1 Kin 8 53. Act. 2.40, and 19.8 [...] Iohn. 17.16. 2 Cor. 6.14, [...]7, 18. The form and order of their v [...]iting is als [...] strange; for these profane people, euen all persons in a fam [...]ly, an [...] all families in a parish, are vnited into one parish church, as it is called; not voluntarily, [...]as ought to be Act 2.4 [...] in the true ch [...]rch, but by constreynt, not by any due profe [...]sion of repen­tance from [...]ead work [...] and faith in God; but by the priests readin [...] a Confession absolution, and such like popish st [...]ff as is to be seen in their seruice book, not vnder the guidance of Chr [...]sts officers, but of a Parson, Vi­car, Curate or other like creature of the Bishops, who in many places can but read English vnto them. And this with the other Par [...]shes of the Dioce [...]e so gathered also, are vnited into one See or D [...]oces [...] church vnder a Lord Bishop and his Co [...]rtiers, and all the Dioces into two Pro [...]inciall churches, the Prouinciall, into one nationall church, called the Church of England, ouer all which there is a most reuerend Father and spiri­tuall Lord, Archbushop, Primate, and Metropolitan: vnder whome al Bis­hops and Priests of the land are subiect; and all people and parishes in the land bound to obey the dead canons and decrees, which he the Ach Lord with his brethren of the gouerning clergie, agree of in their repre­ [...]atiue church in the Conuocation howse, if once the Ciuill Magistrate giue life vnto them. This forme and order of a church is not to be found in Chr [...]sts Testament; but receiued it is from the church of Rome by he­ritage or succession; as the Papists boast of (to the dishonour of Protes­tants) when they say; Supplic to the king anno 1604. Reason of r [...]ligion. 6. A religion &c. that distinguished the multitude into, p [...]rishes [...]roportiōed [...]he tithes, ann [...]xed th [...] Glebeland, fon̄ded the Bishopricks, [...]mitted the Dioceses &c, So, as the mother is the daughter is, false in her c [...] stitutiō; though in the doctrin which she profeseth she is far better & purer thē that whoremother of Rome. The discussing of thes things. as Mr Bern. refereth to other places & books, so also do I; seing in thi [...] place [...]e hath brought nothing of weight to proue his cōstitutiō. For the script [...]re that he alegeth, & the 3. things that he colecteth from thē; do make aga­inst his pur [...]ose. The word is not by Christs m [...]nistery ri [...]htly; reached & applyed to the people, but vnsufferabley abused to the maintenance or the confusion and idolatries that are among them: the sacraments are highly profa [...]ed and prostituted to the most vngodly and thir seed, and [Page 100] popishly administred, and the externall profession which the people, make is by constreynt, and therefore nought worth: besides it is corrupt and idolatrous, being a mixed profession, partly of the truth of God, & partly of their own inuentions, as appeareth by their Communion book Canons, and the like.

2. ErrorOur second error should be, that we hold their Constitution a real idol, and so them idolaters. To confute this, Mr Ber. sayth that he h [...]th perused in any scriptures, and can see none that take an idol or idolaters in any such s [...]nse; aga [...]n, that Marlorat mentioneth 47. idols, and not one of them in [...]he s [...]nse.

Answer.Whether this article be of Mr Bernards own forgin [...], or where he hath had it, I cannot tell; his reader must take all of his cred [...], for he lets not down his author. As for his confutation hereof, it is very slender, that beca [...]se he seeth it not, or Ma [...]lorat nameth it not, therefore it is no idol. For it is no sure position that Mr Bernard seeth all that [...]he scriptures; teach; and both he and Marlorat may as soon number the hayres of their heads, a [...] all the idols that are in the world. Wel therefore yet may [...]t be a real idol, for o [...]ght that this man hath sayd to saue it. And if it be a false constit [...]tion (as before is pro [...]ed) set vp in stead of a true, what is it bet­ter then a very idol. In the end he t [...]rneth and renteth vs for making o [...]r own constitution (as he sayth) an idol or goddesse; and feighneth that we may say, Great is the Goddesse Constitution; great is Diana of the B [...] ­nists B [...]t seing this is but a re [...]roch of a scorner, and the reproch rea­cheth vnto Christ himselfe who hath appoynted the frame order and constitution of h [...]s own ch [...]rch, which we haue laboured for I leaue him for this calumniation, vnto his rebuke, who will teach him one day no more to blaspheme.

And whether (may we think) tendeth the inuectiue of this vayn man, who thus skoffeth at the Constitution of Christs church, but to bring in a mere ataxie or conf [...]sion, worse then was at Babels tower-building: for take away the orderly framing and constituting of a church, and there will be but a Tohu, (as the scripture [...] Ier. 4.23 Gen, 1.2.3. Error speaketh,) a rude indigest heap or confute Chaos, more beseeming the wild beasts of the wood, then any humane, much les [...]e diuine pol [...]ty.

That such as are not of a particular constituted church, (to weet such a one as ours is,) are no subiects of Christs kingdome.

Answer.Neyther is this position set downe in our words; (to my knowledge;) neyther doth Mr B [...]rnard take away, but confirme rather the thing that we hold; for he pag. 81, granteth that they offend God, which may and doe not ordi­narily, (hauing [...] canes offred) liue in a church rightly constituted; and we grant that many of Christs subiects, for want of meanes, doe not liue in a true constituted church, If therefore he were not a caviller, he would not haue reckned this among our errors.

That all nor in our way, are without: and we apply against them (in Engl.) 1 Cor. 5, 12, Eph. 2, 12. 4 Error

[Page 101]The first part of this position, you must impu [...]e to Mr Bernards cha­rity, who w [...]ll needs frame our assertions for vs, [...] because he thinkes we cannot speake for our selues; we might leaue it vnto him to frame an an­swer also. But if he would let vs tel, what we hold, it is, that all not in the way [...]f Ch [...]ist, are without: and if this be an error, let him make the most of it.

The applying of those scriptures against them, he must be content to bear, til he or his brethren can proue thēselues a true church; for though there b [...] great differences of peoples professing religion, some with more truth, [...]ome with lesse; yet all not w [...]thin Christs church, are without, as th [...] A [...]ostle speaketh. Mr Bernards exception, that those places are meant of s [...]ch as neuer professed Christ at all; is childish: why doth he not except a [...]a [...]n [...]t the holy Ghost himselfe, who Reu 18, & oftē in that book. ap [...]lieth against the false Chris­t [...]ans of the R [...]mish Church, words and s [...]eaches meant first of heathen Babylon, that profe [...]ed not God or Christ at all.

His boasting of the word, sacraments, effects and deliuerances; are be­fore in this traatise taken away. And Mr Bernards proofs, are but a begging of the question, which he blameth in other [...], as before is obs [...]rued.

That onely Sayncts, that is, a people forsaking all known sinne, 5 Error. of which they m [...]y be conuinced, doing all the known will of God, increasing and abiding euer thr [...], are the onely matter of a visi [...]le church.

Th [...]s Position I de [...]ey, Answer. and disclaym also the errors which he gathe­reth from [...]t: and therefore will spend no time in answering it; but refer Mr Ben to them that haue so spoken or writen, if any be. This we hold ( [...] let vs se what Mr Bernard can say against it,) that 1 Cor 1.2. Rom. 1, 7. Eph 1.1, Saincts by calling are the onely mater of a true visible church. Yet withall we hold, that [...]any be calle [...], Mat. 20.16. & 22, 14. but few chosen.

That [...]he power of Christ, that is, authority to preach, to administer the sa­cram [...]s, and to exercise the censures of the Church, belongeth to the whole Ch [...]rch, yea to euery one of them. And not the principall members thereof. 6 Error. Answe..

This opinion, he calleth the A, b, c, of Brownisme: but he may put it if he please in the Criss-crosse rew of Bernardisme; he himselfe being the first that I euer heard to vtter such a position. This point he much vrgeth and [...]relleth vs with; he mentoned it in his For [...]speech to the Reader, thus, Th [...] Pa [...]ist sayth, Christs ruling power is in the Pope; nay, sayth the Protestant. i [...] is in the ecclestasticall gouernours, Bishops, may sayth the Puritan, it is in the Presbyterte; nay, sayth the Brownist, it is in the body of the Congregation, the multitude, called the Church. And in this beginneth Brown [...]sme. &c.

Here first I require of Mr Bern. that he produce his autors, and shew the book, or writing, where we haue auouched such things. He tells his reader of all the errors that he ch [...]rgeth vs with, that pag. 78. we hold & cannot deny them, being already auouched vnder our hands: and that he will not wrong vs in setting them down, &c. Yet durst he not (as every honest wri­ter [Page 102] writer in su [...]h controuersies vse to doe; an [...] if he doe not in his next, the reader may est [...]em of his truth and honesty as it is.

Next, for the poynt it selfe, I answer, Christs ruling power, which the Papists say is in the Pope; we say not (as this man calumniateth vs) that it is in the body of the Congregation, the multitude, but in Christ himselfe; and that the Pope is Antichrist, not for taking into his hands the power of the mul [...]itude, but of Chr [...]st, to rule and gouern the church as Head of the same.

Agayn, Christs ruling power, which the Protestants say is in the Bishops the Prelates, we doe not say it is in the multitude; but in Christ himselfe: for he onely is 1 Cor 8, 6. & 12.5. Lord of the Church, he onely is [...]. 1 Pet, 5, 4, Archbishop or Chief pastor; he only walketh among the seuen gol [...]en Candlesticks, as Ouerseer of the seuen ch [...]rches; ruling them by his lawes can [...]ns and decrees. Whereas the Bishops of England are s [...]irituall Lords, and one is Arch [...]i­shop and Primate over all: they rule many ch [...]rches and min [...]sters, mak [...] new canons and decrees in their Conuocati [...]n howse; Reu 1.13 & 2.1. prescr [...]be formes and words of prayer, and of preaching, by their leiturgie and homilies, and other like spirituall jurisdiction, apperteyn [...]ng to Chr [...]st alone, thus are they very Antichr [...]sts; and to [...]ther with their exorbitant usurped. power, ought vtterly to be abolished out of all Chri [...]t [...]an churches.

Neyther, that ruling power of Christ, which the P [...]ritans (whereby I supp [...]se, Mr Bern. meaneth the Christian reforme [...] churches in other coū tries,) say is in the Presbitery; doe we say, is in the multitude for we ac­knowledge Christ to haue ordeyned a 1 Tim 4, 14 Presbit [...]ry; or Eldership, and that in Tit. 1.5. 2 Co, 12, 28. Act, 14 23. every church, for 1 Tim 5, 17 to teach and rule them by his own word and lawes, vnto whome all the multitude, the members. the Sain [...]ts ought to Heb 13, 17 1 Pet. 5.5 obey and submit themsel [...]es, as the scriptures teach And for the particular branches of this 6. Error that Mr Bernard chargeth vs with, That the power of Christ, that is, authority to pr [...]ach, belongeth to the whole church, ye [...] to every one of them, &c. we deny it, a [...] he setts it do [...]n, and for the help of t [...]e reader whome he abuseth, will distinctly set down our opinion.

The word of God, is giuen to all and every member of the Church to read, and exercise priuately: but publickly in the Church there is a double vse, 1 in prophesie, and 2 in office, as the Apostle Rom 12, 6 7· distinguish­eth. The office of teaching is layd vpon some few chosen & ordeyned therevnto Into this office may no man intrude, or vsurp it, without a lawfull calling. This we haue long since published, as a pa [...]t of our faith Confess, Art. 19.20.21. Teaching in way of prophesie, (which the Apo­stle treateth of 1 Cor, 14) is absolutely vs lawfull 1 Cor. 14 34. for all women in th [...] church, but men, so many as haue the gift and ability from God, may [...] 31, 24 all pro [...]hesie one by one, of which poynt see our Con [...]ss Art 34. And this is that we hold concerning preaching, which whether it be an error and Mr Bern. hath so proued it, let the indifferent reader judge.

[Page 103]For the second poynt, authority to administer the sacraments, that it sho [...]ld belong to euery one of th [...] church; we vtterly deney; and maruell at Mr Bernards vnconscionable dealing with vs, for in o [...]r Confession he co [...]ld not but see, (vnlesse he winked,) this plainely expressed, Art. 34. no sacra­ments to be administred vntill the Pastors or Teachers be chosen and ordeyned int [...] [...]heir office.

The third and last, that euery one hath authority to execute the censures of the church we also deny; but hold, that euery member hath authority to Luk 17.3 reb [...]ke h [...]s brother for sinne, and if he repent to forgiue him, if not, to take w [...]tne [...]es; if yet he repent not, to tel it Mat. 18.15.16.17. to the church, which church hath Christs 1 Cors. 4 12, 13. power to iudge all within the same, and cast out from a­mong them all wicked men: Now that every one hath not this power, nor yet any member or members apart, we haue plainly signified in our Con [...]ssi [...]n, Art. 24. If this be an error in Mr Bernards account, let him by the scriptures confute it, not onely in vs but in a principall minister of his own ch [...]rch D, F [...]lk, who hath written Treatise of Popes pard. part. 2. c 3, that the keyes of the kingdome of h [...]auen whatsoeuer they are; be committed to the whol church, and not to one p [...]sō only, as C [...]rian, Augustine, Chrysostome, Ierome, and al the ancient Doc­tors agrea [...]ly o [...]ly to the scriptures doe confesse.

So then for popular gouernment, (which Mr Bern. would traduce vs by,) we hold it not, we approue it not, for if the multitude gouern, then who shalbe gouerned? Christian liberty (which 1 Cor. 7.23 Gal 5.1 all haue) is one thing, the raynes of gouernment (which 1 Cor. 12 28. some haue) is another thing. Now how farr t [...]e peoples right and liberty and benefit thereby eytendeth, would require a larged scourse to shew, which is not my purpose here. It is ye no [...]gh to mainfest the iniquity of this aduersary who would father such err [...]rs on vs, dealing like his predecessors the Papists, who in this weise re [...]roched the Protestants, as labouring Apolog of the church of Engl. 1. part c, 2 divis. 7. to bring all things vnder the rule of the rash vnconstant people and vnlearned multitude; and to make the church Suruey of the new re­lig, 1 book, 3 chap. democraticall and popular, because every one of the people by his pri­uate spirit, is supreme iudge and head in matters of religion.

Our different judgement and practise from the church of Engl. wher all [...]y men as they call them, are forbidden all speaking or expounding of the word in the publik assemblies, and where a Bishop, Chancellor, or Commissary, hath power to excommunicate by a Latin writ &c. Our difference also and dislike of the Presbyteries practise, whereby people are excluded, and depriued of a great part of their Christian liberty and benefit thereby, is in other books See mōng other. the Discouery of the false church; pag 165. & forward. Apology a­gainst the Oxford DD. pag. 60 &c. largely treated of, with scriptures & reasons many, which M, Bern. neyther orderly handleth, nor soundly confuteth, as the wise reader may see; but ignorantly and confusedly shuffleth them ouer; running into by matters, and vniust calumniations. I will end therefore with the words of one of his fellow ministers, who touching this poynt of Church gouernment writeth much more sound­ly then by Mr. Bern. in his blindenes, hath done, Mr Iacob I mean, which [Page 104] sayth, Necess. of re [...]orm, pag 28. It is childish, and without all wit, to cry out aganst vs [...]us our adue [...] ­saries doe▪ Popularity, Anarchie &c. for our so▪ wel grounded and so approued an assertion.

7 Error. That the sinne of one man publ [...]ckly and obstinately stood in, b [...]ing not refor­med nor the offender cast out, [...]oth s [...] p [...]llute the whole congregation, that none may commu [...]cate with h [...] same in any of the holy [...]hings of God, (though it be a church r [...]ghtly con [...]ituted, till the party be excommun [...]cated.

Answer.I deney agayn this to be eyther our iudgement or practise Mr. Bern. sayth the form [...]r position is the ground of this; and so it seemeth, he c [...] ­lumniating vs in the for [...]er, thou [...]ht he might doe likeweise in this. We professe and haue long since publ [...]shed, that Confess. [...], 3 [...], none is to separate for f [...]lts & corru [...]tiōs, which may & so long as the Church cōsist [...]th of m [...]rtall men will fall out and aris [...] among them; but by due order to s [...]k r [...]dresse th [...]reof

Now that euery Chr [...]stian not onely may b [...] tought to rebuke his neighbour for sinne, we ha [...]e playn lawes both [...]n the old Testament and the new Leuit. 19.17. Luk. 17.3. That sinners not repenting, are after the second admonition to be signified vnto the church, is also Christs or­dinance, Mat. 18, 15.17.

But what [...]f [...]he church will not cast him out? I answer; Synns are ey­ther con [...]rouertible or manifest. If controuertible and d [...]ubtf [...]ll; men ought Rom 15, 1 Phil, 3 15, 16. Eph, 4, 2, 3 to bear one with anothers different judgement; if they doe not, but, any for this make a breach or separation, Heb 10, 25 they syn.

But if the sinne be manifest, as for example a man is conuict of adul­tery, blasphemy, theft or the like: and the church will not rebuke him nor cast him out, but suffer him obstinate and impenitent in his wicked­nes; and plead for him aga [...]nst such us call vpon them for iudgem [...]nt: then are all such abettors of the wicked, sinners themselues; and that in a high degree, as th' Apostle noteth Rom. 1 31 the whole lump is leue­ned, 1 Cor. 5, 1, 6. &c. and now not that one mans sinne, but the sinne of them all, is that which polluteth them: for they fauour and iustify a wicked man more then God; therefore Isa. 5, 20 23, woe is vnto them, and Solo­mon sayth, He that sayth to the wicked, thou art righteous him shall the peo­ple curse, and the multitude shall abhorr him. Prou, 24 24

If M, Bern think the sinne is the lesse, because a church maynteyns it; he is much deceiued; evill, the more common it is▪ the worse [...]t is; be­cause God is more dishonoured, and mens sowles more endangered.

If he think men should regard and reuerence the church in this case▪ the law teacheth every man not to follow Exo. 2 [...], 2 the many (or, the mighty) to doe euill, nor agree in a controuersie to decline after many, and ouer­throw (the right.) The [...]round of all this is playn in Gods law, if any one of the people sinned against any of the commandements of the Lord, Leu 4 (27 28. &c, and one shewed him his sinne which he had committed, he was to bring his sacrifice, a testification of his repentance. If a ver 2 [...].23 &c, ruler sinned, or the high verse. 3. priest himselfe, they were to doe likewise. If the whole uerse. 13. &c. [Page 105] Congregation sinned, the like law was for them: God respected no per­sons; but if they that sinned were greater or moe in number, they were so farr from being sauoured, as they had the greater sacrifice inioyned them, a priuate man offred vers. 28. a shee-goat, a ruler a vers 24, hee-goat, the high Priest, and the Congregation, a ve 3 & 14 yong b [...]llock. These lawes were gi­uen to all sorts of persons, for all manner sinns‘ and the law was agayn repeated and stablished from that day forward throughout their gene­rations, Num. 15.22.23. &c. But if any man despised this law, and sin­ned with a high hand, the same blasphemed the Lord, and was to be cut off from among his peo [...]le. Num. 15.30.31 Now further, that the whol congregation taking Part with wicked men in syn, after due admoniti­on, are all defiled and subiect to like iudgement, we haue a playn example in the whole Tribe of Beniamin, Iudg, 19, where in Gibe [...]h one of their towns filthines was committed, the Tribe was called vpon to deliuer Iudg. 20.13. &c. th [...]se wicked men to death, that evill might be put away from Israel, [...]t when they would not deliuer them, all the other tribes warred against that tr [...]be, and almost rooted out every man of the same. Likeweise the tr [...]bes of Israel in an other case, sayd to some of their brethren, Iosh. 22.18.20. see­ing ye rebel to day against the Lord; euen tomorrow he wilbe wroth with all the Congregation of Israel. Did not Achan sinne, &c. and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel and this man alone perished not in his wickednes. What Mr Bern. seeth or how he readeth the scriptures I cannot tel; but if he knew the contagion of sinne or guilt of the same, he would neuer haue writien as he hath done Now where he pleadeth that men should not for the offender, refreyn the holy things of God, abh [...]rr the sacrifices &c. We grant it. The holy things are alwayes to be reuerenced, Gods house and sacrifices frequented, when we may without sinne But we deny such an assembly to be Gods church, as with a high hand sinneth, and blasphemeth the Lord. The sacrifice of the wicked is Prou. 21.27. an abomination. And it cannot be said that any holy thing is lawfully administred in such a society where all agree together to mayntein open iniquity, and doe despise the word of the Lord, calling them to repentance If they doe not thus, we hold it not lawfull to separate from them, nor in any weise at any time, till all holy and orderly meanes be vsed for their reclay­ming.

That euery of their assemblies are false churches. 8 Error.

This we hold indeed, Answer. being vnderstood of the ordinary cathedrall & parish assemblies of England, which all are by one line. For defense of these churches Mr Bern. refers the reader to an other treatise after, and so doe I to the answer of the same, following. Yet least he should seem [...]o say nothing, Mr Ber excepteth 1 That they haue no false head, for, they hold Iesus Christ. I answer, so might Ieroboam haue pleaded for himself & his people, that they had no false head, but 1 Kin. 12 28. the true God which brought them out of the Land of Aegypt. Yet were they a false church The Pa­pists [Page 106] Papists and Anabaptists at this day, hold and professe Iesus Christ: yet such errors are among them, as Christ in deed is deneyed: the parishes of England professe him also, but such is their estate otherweise, that they haue him not truly for a head, prophet, priest, or king vnto them; as be­for pag. 74. is proued. But it is yenough for Mr Bernard to affirme without proofe: and correction with him is a pag. 111. needfuller argument in this case t [...]ē i [...]struction For when the Priests li [...]s preserue not knowledge how should men be answered but by the gaole or gallowes?

2. The matter (sayth he) is not false: and to shew this he noteth a diffe­rence between No matter, true matter, and false matter. No matter are th [...]y which make no profession of Christ at all; as Iewes, Turks, and Pagans, True (visible) matter are all such as openly professe this mayn truth, that Iesus the sonne of Mary is the sonne of God▪ Christ the Lord, by whome onely & alone they shalbe saued. And pag 116. false matter is contrary to this true matter.

I answer; this false matter is very rawly set down, for being contrary to the former true, it may imply Iewes, and Turks, whome he made no matter: and then it confoundeth his own distinction. But if he mean that they which professe not Christ rightly and truely, as he setteth downe, are a false matter, then, say I; [...]t will euince the matter of their Churches to be false, seing there is not aright and true profession of Chr [...]st, made by their parishes▪ But Mr Ber. leauing out this word rightly & truly, tels vs pag 113. they all professe this fayth, as is apparent 1 by the doctrine of their church (vidz. that in the Harmony of Confessions,) 2 by the same publickly preached 3 by the same mainteyned by their lawes, writings and blood of holy martyrs. I answer, if all this were granted▪ yet will it not proue Mr Bernards pur­pose, for some may write and preach the truth, the Magistrate may e­stablish it by law, and some may seal it with their blood; and yet not al the nation be a true matter for Christs church, except they also make l [...]ke profession Which that the parishes of England doe not, the profanenes of the multitudes shew. But least I be thought to speake of envy, let vs hear the testimony of their own ministers and such as were no fauourers of vs at all▪ as their malicious writings of vs sheweth Mr Nichols estee­med a forward preacher among them▪ sayth, Plea of the inn [...]ēt. p. 218. &c. We finde by great experi­ence, (and I haue now fiue and twenty yeres obserued it,) that in those places where there is not preaching and priuate conferring of the Minister and the peo­ple; the most part haue as litle knowledge of God and of Christ, as Turks and Pagans. To confirme this, he giues vs an example in his own flock For I haue been in a parish sayth he) of fowr hundred communicants, and maruel­ling that my preaching was so little regarded, I tooke vpon me to conferre with euery man and woman, before they receiued the communion. & I asked them of Christ, what he was in his person; what his office; how firme came into the world; what punishment for sinne; what becomes of our bodies being rotten in the graue and lastly whither it were possible for a man to liue so vprightly, that by wel do­ing he might winn heauen. In all the former questions, I scarse found ten in the [Page 107] hundred to haue any knowledge, but in the last question, scarse one, A sayer pro­f [...]ssion. but did af­firme, that pag. [...]20. man might be saued▪ by his own wel doing, and that he trus [...]ed he did so liue, that by Gods grace he should obt [...]yn euerlasting life by ser [...]ing of God and god prayers &c. Now then, this being so, tell me I pr [...]y y [...]u (sayth Mr Ni [...]hols▪ first for Ath [...]isme, whether these be any bettor then A [...]h [...]is [...]s, whi [...]h know not Christ? And tell me I pray you Mr Bernard whether th [...] be a [...]rue matter, such as Christs church consisteth of? But you would [...]a [...] vs beleeue the Bishops and Priests of Engl. are wondrous men; for i [...] [...]hey write books, or preach sermons to the people, their whole Dioceses and Parishes must needs be estemed conuerts and profelytes. Such effect & grace was neuer heard of before, since the world began. More absurd it is to say, that the good lawes of the Magistrate, doe make a profane i­dolatrous multitude, true professors: but most of all, that because some few were martyrs, therefore they that killed the martyrs, professe Christ truly. If these be not pregnant reasons, then M. Bernards book is little worth. 3. But he proceedeth and sayth, The visible form is not false; which is the vniting of vs unto God, and one to another uisibly. This he would proue by 3, reasons 1 because the word is preached and offred to the people; 2 Be­cause of the peoples open profession of their fayth, vnto the doctrine, God working in them a will to receiue it. 3 because the Lords supper is in vse among them. Sundry scriptures are alleged to shew that thus the primitiue churches were planted and constituted; all which we grant; but when he comes to apply pag. 121. these to themselues; he barely assumes, that thus is their case; neyther answering any reason of ours to the contrary, nor shewing any rea­son of his own, to confirme that which he sayth. And what cause in the world, what church is so bad; but may thus be pleaded for? He knowes wel, that we except, (and the visible estate of that church, their own monuments, records, complaints, &c. doe bear witnes with us,) that they were planted in this religion and profession by force of the Magistrates law; that multitudes are profane; that many thowsands want the prea­ching of the word; that they ar al compelled to come to church, be bap­tised, receiue the communion, and the like; and what profession the poor ignorant people make, is before manifested. If he would heare more of their profession, and subiection to the word and ministery, Mr. Nichols shewes it thus; Plea of the innocēt pag, 246· How little haue they esteemed the godly and learned minis­ters! How content they be with simple and ignorant men! How hardly are they drawn to pay duties which law hath appoynted! How many quarrels they pick against painfull ministers! And how little reuerence they giue to any that are faithfull! How they follow their couetousnes and pleasures! How they fil al sorts of courts with brawles, foolish and wilfull strifes, and sutes, and demurres in law with murthers, whordomes▪ dronkennes, and all disorder. Loe this is the commendations of the professant people of the Church of Engl, whome Mr Bernard pleadeth for.

As for their constitution and vniting together into parishes▪ dioceses, [Page 108] pro [...]inces, and at last in to one nationall church with an Archbishop & his high court ouer all it is pag. 99, before shewed to be a R [...]mis [...] [...]t [...]o [...], and antichristian, n [...]t iustifiable by the law or testament of Christ.

4. Lastly, the visi [...]le properties are (he sayth) not false [...]ut true, namely th [...]se, 1 Con [...]inuance in heari [...]g of the d [...]ct [...]ine of Christ receiued, and vsing of th [...] sacraments and prayer. 2 The hol [...]ing out of this truth an [...] [...] sacra [...]ents as [...] displ [...]ed, against the ene [...]y▪ 3 A care for the welfare of all, and eue­ry one for [...] and ech for o [...]her.

But all this build [...]ng is on a s [...]ndy ground: for their esta [...]e (as before is m [...]nif [...]sted▪ be [...]ng euill: the long [...]r they continew in it, the worse it is f [...]r them Cont [...]nuance to read [...]he seruice book, and homilies, to [...]rostitute t [...]e Sacra [...]ents to the profane, to administer them after a [...]opish m [...]nn [...]r, by a false m [...]n [...]ster [...]; these are the banners and ensignes of Anti­christ▪ dis [...]layed [...]n al his a [...]emblies; that poor sowles haue cause to complayn a [...] in the Psalm, Ps. 4.4. they haue s [...]t vp th [...]i [...] banners for signes. As for the care of the wel [...]are of all, &c. which Mr. B [...]rn. boasteth of: let Mr. Nichols foresayd complaynt of the people on the one hand▪ and the Bishops, & Preists open neglect & contempt of the people on the other hand, shew what care they haue one of another. For how many sowles are misera­bly famished by dum, negligent, and non resident priests evill beasts and slow bellies. How many preachers are put out for not subscrib [...]ng and u­sing the ceremonies, &c. These, that I g [...]ue no other instances, shew what care there is of mens sowless am [...] them; which he that commen­deth, shewes himselfe carelesse what he speakes or writes.

9 Error.OVr 9. error is, that we say, Al th [...]r minist [...]rs are false ministers. A­gainst this Mr Bernard allegeth for the truth of their ministery, that they are sent of Christ according to his ordinance in his church, as is mani­fested by th [...], th [...]t th [...]y are quall [...]fi [...]d with good gifts, they are called by the church, & such also as d [...]e diligently, and faithfully preach, and so preach Christ as many th [...]reby doeth ar and bel [...]eue, euen confirming their calling by the bles­sed successe and eff [...]ct of th [...]i [...] lab [...]urs. Rom. 10.14.15. 1 Cor. 9.2.

Answer,First, if Mr Bernard would indeed haue refuted our error, if such it be he shoul [...] haue answered the reasons which in many writings we haue br [...]ught a [...]inst the [...]r min [...]stery B [...]t he found that, all too heauie.

The [...] for the reasons that [...]ms [...]lfe alleg [...]th, they are naked and with­out all co [...]firm [...]ti [...]n; such as Pa [...]ist [...], Anabaptists or any other Antichris­tians might [...]llege for the [...]sel [...]es F [...]r, a Papist wil [...]oast as wel as he, that their Priests are qu [...]lifi [...] wi [...]h go [...]d gifts, called, by the church, doe deligently an [...] faithfully pre [...]ch, so as [...] h [...]r an [...] beleeue. B [...]t I will an­swer ech of [...]is part [...]c [...]l [...]r [...] Their q [...]alificatiō is wi [...]h Good g [...]fts, is no proffe of a lawful minist [...]ry; seing [...] many priuate men ha [...]e as good gifts as they; [...]vsurpers and intr [...]der [...] may al [...]o haue as excellent gifts, as law­full officers: [...] Iesuites, S [...]mm [...]ries and ther instuments of Satan, are knowen to be as learned and well furnished with gifts, as Mr Bern. and [Page 109] his brethren. 4 Moreouer I deny that the principall ministers of England are qualified or able to execute their office; the Archbishops, Bishops Arch dea [...]ons, &c. that haue whole Dioceses and Prouinces vnder their charge cannot possibly performe the duty▪ of true ministers vnto them. 5 And fi [...]lly a number of ignorant Sir Iohns can read their Leiturgie vnto their paris [...]es; and haue no other good ministeriall quallity.

The second thing, their calling by the church; which afterward he ex­pl [...]yneth th [...]s; pag. 141. bei [...]g examined, found fi [...], and so are elect and ordeyned; this [...] vpon the sands; for the church of England not being a true ch [...]rch of G [...]d, as is before manifested, hath no power from God to call and [...]rdeyn mi [...]isters▪ But besi [...]es this, I would fayn learne of Mr Bern. what Ch [...]ch it is that examined, elected, and ordeyned his Lords grace of Canterb [...]y, for Ar [...]hb [...]shop [...] then whether the same or some other ch [...]rch examined elected and ordeyned the Diocesan Bishops, the Deans the Archdeacons, and the rest of that Lordly priesthood, then what church ordeyned the parish Priests, and Deacons. These things if he dare vnder­take to deal in, and bring to the triall: will be found more agreable to the Canons of the Pope, then to the testament of Christ.

Their office it selfe, Mr Bern. balketh quite, and tels vs not what functions this pompous clergie haue to execute, yet is it most needfull to be known, for how els shall men discerne their administration? To begin [...] therefore with his Arch Lord of Cant. the Angel of the church of Engl. what office [...]ath [...]e to execute, of a Pastor; or of a Pope? If he be Pastor of this [...]rch, what be the inferior Bishops; pety Pastors, or Pety popes? what offices [...] the Suffragans, Chancell [...]rs, deanes, Archdeacons Commis­s [...]s, [...]ffi [...]ials, D [...]ctors Proctors, and the residew of that army? what offi­ces haue the Preb [...]ndaries, Canons, P [...]ti [...]anons, Chanters, Subchanters, and other like b [...]rds of the cloister? what offices haue the Bishops bay lifts the Priests, the half priests or Deacons, the Parsons, and Vicars, the Churchwar­dens, Clerks, & Sextius? Mr Bern. affirmeth that pag. 131▪ the Lord onely ordeyneth offi [...]s in his church 1 Cor. 12. and that the church it selfe cannot doe this, but Iesus Christ both Lord and King. Now seing he hath ouerskipped in this book, al the stately offices that are in his church: let him in his next shew (if he can) the offices that Christ in his testament hath appoynted this troup of horsemen and charrets vnto.

Now for their administration, he telleth pag. 142. vs, they preach the true doc­trine or Christ, administer the sacraments, performe their office faithfully, and liue c [...]ns [...]i [...]nably, and Christ doth assist such graciously in conuerting soules, and [...]h [...] pe [...]ple doe approue of them.

Fayr words, and such as it seemeth Mr Bern. useth to feeed his flock with: but if one deny that thus it is, he must tary for proof, till an other treatise come forth; it was yenough in this, to affirme it so to be; and for his Lords grace to confirme it. Wel, to let passe the multitude of com­pl [...]ints and testimonies to the contrary in their own books, let him shew [Page 110] how it is possible for the Archbishop of the church of Engl. or the in­ferior Bishops, to preach and performe their office faithfully, vnto so many hundreds of parishes, & thowsands of people, as are vnder their charge. Let the infinite number of soules that are famished vnder them speake, how often their Chief-shepheard of Cant haue fed them with the word and sacraments, (vnlesse perhaps he hath blessed some of their youthes with the Sacrament of Confirmation;) how many of their soules he hath conuerted, yea let them say whether euer he saw their face [...]? As for the Bishops Deputies the paris [...]h priests, many of them are dumb by nature, and cannot preach; many are made dumb by their spirituall Lords pow­er, and silenced for disobed [...]ence; so preaching wexeth geazon, and people perish for want of Instruction. In the mean tyme, this painful Cler­gie feedeth the Lay weekly, with their mattings, Euensong, and Homi­lies; and sometimes in a year with sermon, and reading the Bishops canons. They discipline their notorious sinners, with reading curses and Comminations out of the pulpit, till the Lent penance (which is much to be wished) be restored agayn: they solemnize the holy dayes of Angels and of Saincts; they giue ech man the sacrament at Easter deuoutly vpon his knees, they baptise with water, and a signe of the crosse in the a [...]er; they wed their parishioners with a ring, & teach the man to worship his wife, in the name of the Father and of the Son & of the holy Ghost: they church the women after childbirth: they visi [...] the sick, and absolue him from all his sinns, and howsel him with a Communion: and last of all, they bu­ry the dead, in sure and certayn hope of resurrection to eternall life. And this is yenough for priests to doe in the country parishes; but in the Ca­thedrall churches, where Bishops, Deanes; and other great Doctors do reside; there the Queriste [...]s and Organ-pipes, make sweeter melody. Mr. Bern. confesseth pag, 121. that the Lord onely prescribes the duties to be done in euery distinct [...]ffice: now he that knowes not these dutiess to belong to Christs ministers, or these works to be a faythfull performance of ministeriall of­fice, let him read Mr Bernards book, for there pag, 139.140. he hath quoted many scriptures, the end of all which is to raise pag, 141, an euident proof of the truth of their ministery and administration; as if one should cite the second commandement, for to vphold idolatrie.

The effects of their administration, in conuerting sowles, is but a vayne boast, as their idolatrous estate, with the lamentable ignorance and profanenes of the people every where sheweth The reasons brought by others (for Mr Bern bringeth none,) to perswade such effects, are be­fore in this pag 54. &c. treatise answered.. It maketh also against the estate of this church and ministery; for if these preachers haue conuerted and wrought faith in some of their hearers, then it followeth that before that conuer­sion they were infidels, yet were they of the church and had this minis­tery set ouer them, as all men know. Which how it can stand with the r [...]les of Gods word, hath neuer yet bene shewed. The example which [Page 111] Mr Bern. allegeth of th' Apostle 1 Cor, 9.1.2. helpeth him nothing: For Apostles were sent Ma [...] 28.19, to conuert heathens, but Pastors are set for to 1 P [...]t [...], 1 Act. [...]0.28 feed conuerted Christians. And the Priests of England challenge to be Pas­tors, I ween, and not Apostles. Agayn the work and seal of Pauls Apostle­ship was seen in Corinth, by 2 Cor, 6, 4 &c. separating the beleeuers from infidels; and g [...]ther [...]ng the 1 Cor 1.2 Saints onely into the communion of the church, vnder the officers [...] Cor. 12 gi [...]en of Christ but in England the vnb [...]leeuers and wicked, were receiued and are reteyned in the church. So that Mr. Bern. is but a [...]alse Apostle (as his work shewes) if he be any at all. But in the end he tels vs pag. 144. we forget to iustifie the lawfulnes of our own ministers, who are made [...]i [...]ist [...]rs [...]y s [...]ch as are no ministers, contrary to the constant practise of the church of God, from the dayes of Adam hitherto. &c. In which dispute, Mr. Bern. teacheth playn apostasie from the Gospell unto Poperie, from wh [...]ch he deriueth the min [...]stery of his church of Engl. For seing all the examples that he allegeth from scriptures, are of Diuine persons and ap­proued ministers of the true church; and comming pag. 145. to his church of En­gland, he fetcheth her ministery out of the Popish church and from the Prelates thereof, it cannot be (if his last words agree with his first) but the po [...]ish church is a true church, and their prelates true ministers. O­therweise h [...]s reasoning is absurd, to say, God ordeyned Adam, Moses odeyned Aaron; Christ ordeyned the Apostles; the Apostles ordeyned or­ther m [...]nisters in churches: therefore Antichrist of Rome, his synago [...]ue of Satan, & h [...]s eldest son [...]es the Prelates, must or may ordeyn mini [...]ters in the church of Christ. If this be a good consequence let al men iudge: if [...]s it be not, then Mr. Bern. holdeth the popish church, and the [...]o­pish ministers true ministers; and so himselfe and his church of England must needs be schismatiks for leauing that church of Rome. When he hath cleared himselfe of this his absurd doctrine, then (if he cannot see that the church of Christ hath power to ordeyn her own ministers) it shalbe shewed h [...]m by the scriptures, T [...]ll then, what should we do fo­lowing of a wauering reed, whome we cannot tell by his writing, whe­ther he be Papist or Protestant. And that the reader may see into what an intricate Labyr [...]nth the ministers of England haue brought them­selues, about this matter of their ministery, by writing as they haue do [...] both of the Papists and of us: I will set down a Papist argument against them: from which how handsomely they can defend themselues, I would fayn see. There came out, in anno 1602 a book called A detection of diuers notable vntruthes &c. wherein the author hauing to deal wit Mr S [...] cliff, who as (he sayth) had reasoned thus, In his chalenge, p: 85. The true church is a societie of faithfull people vnder lawfull Pastors &c But the Church of Rome hath long wanted true Pastors and Bishops; for the Romish Bishops haue no authority [...]r missiō but frō the Pope, to whome also they swear feally: but he hath no au­thority to send them or ordeyn them, [...]eing himselfe no Bishop, &c. This argu­mēt of Mr Sutcliffs the Papist detestion, &c. p. 100. retorteth v [...]ō thē thus. The true church of [Page 112] Christ hath alwayes true Pastors and Bishops: but the English Congregation wanteth true Priests and Bishops: Therefore the English congreagation [...] not the true church of Christ. The fi [...]st proposition (sayth the Papist) he must not deny, being of his own making, &c. The 2, proposition is apparant according to Mr Sutcliffs diuinity. For most certaine it is, that their first Bishops recei­ued their orders and consecration from our catholik Bishops, as his brother Bel confesseth, Suruey. pag. 201. And the thing it selfe speaketh: seing when L [...] ­ther begun, there was not any protestant Bishop or Priest &c. And if Mr Sut­ [...]liffe dare deny that their Bishops were c [...]ns [...]cratedl [...] ours, then let him name who they were that did lay hands vpon Mr Parker the first of Cant. that deri­ued not their mission authority and consecration from the Bishop of Rome. Certayn it is, th [...]t [...]yther none at all can be named, or els none b [...]sides: therefore if our Bishops be no Bishops, then doth it follow most euidently, that all the English Bishops, be no Bishops at al, as hauing no other cōsecratiō then from them: And if our English Prelates be no true Bishops, then surely n [...]yther be they Pri [...]sts or Minis [...]ers or Deacons, that be ordeyned by them, and so consequently the congregation of E [...]g [...], by Mr Sutcliffs argumēt, not th [...] tru church of Christ. This is the Catholi [...]s argument and plea: which how Mr Bern. or his brethren will wel answer, and stand also to that which they haue writ­ten against vs; I cannot tel.

Finally, against that often boasting of the work and effect of the mi­nistery of Engl, I will oppose a testimony of one of their chief mi [...]isters, yet our professed aduersary, that it cannot be thought he was partial for vs at all. Mr Gifford is the man that thus hath Dialogue between a Papist & a protestāt: in the Epistle dedicatory: written. Som [...] d [...]e won­der how it should come to passe; that among vs there should be so many which being borne since the gospell was restored in this land are so zealously addicted unto Popery, which th [...]y neuer did know. and so utter enemies to the Gospel which they hear. But if they weigh the causes of this deadly mischeef, they will cease wondring at that, and rather wonder that there be no more. For how can it b [...] so long as there be so many abuses in the ministery, but that many shall stum­ble and loath the Gospell. For from thence as it is manifest, the cheife cause of this euill doth spring. True it is that our ministery doth fight against them but yet in such sort, that it doth greatly increase them. Seeming and pretending to tread vpon those cockatrise eggs, for to breake them, and so [...]o destroy utterly th [...] viperous generation: when as indeed they sit vpon them, and so hatch the bro [...]ds of this euill kinde, and bring them forth in great plenty. For behold a number cry out against popery, and proclaym vtter defiance in speach: but their doings are such, that for euery one which they conuert to the g [...]spel, they cause an hun­dred to reuolt, to be hardned in their errors, or to fall into flat Atheisme. While many cōtrary to the professiō w [...]ich they made when they entred, setting aside the care of sowles, not esteeming nor regarding what become of them, studie most how to clime high, and to satisfy their ambitious desire of honour: taking togi­ther liuings couetously and greedily: not caring who feed the flock, so they may [...]me by the fleese, Moreouer the door hath been opened also [...]o let into the church [Page 113] [...] and swarme of such, as are more like the priests of Ieroboam, then minis­ter [...] of the gospell: not onely unlearned idols, which haue mouthes and speake n [...]t; which being weary of their occupations, and couet to liue easily, and to that end are entred; but also riotous, dicers, gamesters, quaffers, quarrellers, adulterers and such like. If the matter were secret I should doe amisse to make it manifest; but when it is open in the sight and view of all men, who can complayn iustlie when it is spoken of? Let this record of Mr G [...]ffords, for the effect of their administration and their good quallities besides, togither with Mr Ber­nards former doctrine for their first calling and ordination by the popish prelates; shew whether it be not like, that this ministery will ere long make accord with the mother church of Rome that hatched it, and for whom it againe hatcheth cockatrices eggs.

The tenth error that we should hold is, 10 Error that their worship ( in Engl.) is a false worship. To proue this to be an error, Mr Bern. bringeth these reasons.

1. That they worship no false God.

I answer. Answer. Neyther did Ieroboam the son of Neba [...] who made Israel to syn: yet vsed he a false worship 1 King. 12.

2. That they worship the true God with no false worship; for they haue the true word preached, the true sacraments, and their prayers are such as ma [...] be warranted by the word. &c.

I answer, this is but taking for granted, that which he should proue; for he knowes well that we deney th [...]se things, and by many reasons in sundry bookes (none of which Mr Bern. answereth) haue disproued their preaching, ministring of Sacraments, booke prayer &c. Seing he will answer nothing before written by vs, let him in his next booke, prooue that the Apocrypha scriptures and homily bookes, which they read in Gods worship are his true word; that the sacraments which the vnprea­ching priests minister to their profane parishioners by their popish lei­tourgie, are true sacraments; let him approue by Gods word the obser­uation of all their holy dayes, fasting dayes, with their prescript peculiar seruice; briefly, let him shew warrant for his seruice book, the making and vse thereof with all the popish contents therein. These are strange incense, new forgeries of their own, neuer appoynted by Christ or his Apostles: wherefore we doubt not to affirme their worship to be false, e­uen an humane inuention. With these things Mr Bern. medle [...]h not, but bringeth proof for other matters, which we neuer denyed; and referreth vs to an after treatise. which now next followeth to be answered. Yet ere he leaueth us, he will utter all his hart, and from his inner store pow­reth out against vs 12. errors moe, wh [...]ch he will not spend time (he saith) in con [...]ut [...]tion of, they are so absurd and false; being also (as he thinketh) con [...]ured by the former. Though nothing need be answered where no shew of proof is made: yet to satisfy the reader and shew him the vani­ty of this aduersary, I will briefly touch them all; and they be these.

[Page 114] I 1 That their congregations, as they stand, are all and euery of them vncapa­ble before God to chuse them ministers, though they desire the meanes of salua­tion.

Al such as desire the means of saluation in what congregations soeuer, haue, Aswner. ower and liberty from God to separate from all euill, and ioyne togither in good, and so to enioy Gods blessings in his ministery, or any other part of the Gos [...]el But, we hold that no false church, hath power from God to chuse ministers: which he hath ordeyned onely for true churches. 1 Cor. 12.28. E [...]h. 4, 12 R [...]m. 12.4, 5 &c. & we wonder with what face any Christian can say otherweise. If Mr Bern. make the error to be in holding them false churches; then is it the same with the 8. error be­fore answered, and is here b [...]t idly of him repeated.

II 2. That God in their best assembli [...]s, is worshipped after a false manner.

Answer.An other idle repetition of that which before he made our Tenth er­ror, which there was answered.

III 3. That baptisme is not administred into the fayth of Christ simply, but into the fayth of Bishops, and Church of Engl.

Answer.This I think is Mr Bernards vncharitable collection, not our Positi­on. Though we hold baptisme among them to be administred neyther by a true minister nor after a lawfull manner, but according to their own prescript Leitourgie and to the seed of the w [...]cked, with great disho­nour of the precious blood of Christ; and therefore to be no true seal of Gods couenant vnto them.

IIII, 4. That their faith and repentance is a false faith, and a false repentance.

Answer.Faithfulnes and repentance is desired in Mr Bernard himselfe, who ca­reth not to calumniate us We professe to iudge no secret things such as true faith and repentance are. We are perswaded many in true churches may haue a false fayth and a false repentance, because there are many hypocrite [...] also that many in false churches may haue true faith and re­pentance, for there are Gods elect But who these are on both sides, we leaue vnto God that knowes them. Of Mr Bernards church this is that we say, they walke not in the true fayth, they bring not forth fruites of tr [...]e repentance, in the publick estate wherein they stand.

V 5. That th [...]ir Ministers conuerting men to God there, doe it not as Pastors but as Teachers. Answer.

This distinction which Mr Bern. skoffeth at▪ must rest, skoff and all, in his own bosome, till he bring out another father. I know not who be­gat it.

VI 6. That their church standeth in an adultrous estate. A strange assertion (sayth Mr Bern.) what idol worship we?

Answer.False worship is spirituall adultery Ier. 3. If Mr Bern. were not a stranger in Christ fold, he would so acknowledge it, and not count it our er­rour. If he say the error is in holding their worship to be false; then say I, he repeteth now the third time, that which before he made our 10. & [Page 115] agayn our second Errors, and if he goe forward thus, he may multiply it to a thowsand, and teach us new Arithmetik. If he would know what idol he worships! let him take his Ordinary for one among many, who standeth for a spirituall Lord ouer many churches, vsur [...]ing Christs place: to him doth Mr Bern. with his flock, bow and stoup. An other idol he may [...]nde in his pue.

7. That we cannot say certaynly by any warrant of Gods word, that any of VII them hath eyther faith or fear of God.

A hard speech, If that man whome he mentioneth in the margine, Answ. so sayd; let not one mans word be imputed to our common cause He may see it otherwise minded by others of us, before in this treatise pag. 39 and our Apolog. pag. 91.92.

8. That n [...]ne of their ministers may be heard. VIII

Not heard in the execution of their ministery, for it is of Antichrist. Answ. Christs sheep hear his voyce, not a strangers Ioh, 10 All Antichrists mi­nisters are strangers. So are all ministers of euery false Church. Such their church and ministery hath bene proued to be in many treatises.

9, That it is not lawfull to ioyne in prayer with any of them, IX

As a false church generally, so the members thereof particularly, Answ. may not be communicated with in spirituall actions. Such we hold, & haue proued their church to be. Til Mr Bern. take away this foundation, he fighte [...]h but with shadowes; and sheweth his ignorance in the com­munion of the Saincts.

10. That ministers may not celebrate mariage nor bury the dead. X

There wanteth a third thing to make vp the error, Answ. Churching of women These and the l [...]ke ministerial functions, we know the Romish Antichrist layeth on his priests, and the Prelates of England on theirs: But in Christs testament we finde no such duties imposed vpon his ministery Let Mr. Ber therefore bury his dead still; for he will quicken but a few by his popish doctrine.

11, That ministers should onely liue of voluntary contribution, and not ey­ther XI of set stipends or tithes.

Against this Mr Bern. allegeth Gods wisdome who allowed a setled maintenance under the law: and there is nothing against it in the Gospel,

God in wisdome appoynted tithes, first fruites & other particulars for his Prirsts liuelihod ūder the law: Answ. Christ in wisdom appoynt [...]th nōe such for his ministers under the gospell; but Pope Paschalis about 827 yeares after Christ Qu 19. ca. 1. Decima [...] a populo. decreed that tithes should be giuen to the priests. This Popes wisdome Mr Ber. preferreth before Christs. It cannot be deney­ed but tithes were a part of the Law, and that Chris [...] abolished the legal Priesthood; whervpon it followeth by the playn doctrine of the Gospel, if the priesthood be changed, then of necessity must there be a change of the law. Heb. 7.12. But Mr Bern, had rather any shadow should be done away then this of Tithes, for it hath much substance with it. and there be moe [Page 116] siluersmithes of Demetrius minde which sayd, Act 19.15 Siroye know, that by this craft we haue our goods. But what sayth one of their own ancient Martyrs against Mr Bernards predecessors. Acts and Monumēts, Wiliā Thor in his testament. This Priesthood is blown so high and borne vp in pride and vayne glory of their estate and dignity, and so blinded with worldly couetousnes, that th [...]y disdayne to follow Christ in uery meeknes and wilfull pouerty, liuing holily, and preaching Gods word truely freely and continual­ly, taking th [...]ir liuelihood at the freewil of the People; of their pure almose, wher and when they suffice not for their true and busy preaching to get their sustenance with their hands To this true sentence grounded on Christs own l [...]uing, and teaching of his Apostles, these foresayd worldly and fleshly priests, wil not consent effect ally, &c. If this martyr were now aliue, the Clerg [...]e of England would sooner condemn him for a Brownist then appro [...]e of his doctrine; albeit now that he is dead, they garnish his toomb.

XII 12. That their churches ought to be raced down, and not to be jmployed to the true worship of God.

Answ.To repayr this ruine, M. Bernard telleth us; there is great difference be­tween Antichristianisme and Paganisme. He might tel us also there is great difference between Paganisme & Paganisme, some Pagans worshipp [...]ng the true Act 17.23 God ignorantly; some the Sun and Moon and host of heauen, some the Diuil himselfe. But what were this to the purpose? The thing he should shew is that God more estemeth fauoureth aloweth or tolerateth antichrists idol howses, then of the Pagans. Till he doe this, we know that by Gods word and in his account, as Pagans 1 Cor, 10 20. worship Diuils, so Anti­christians Reu 9 20, & 16, 14. and 18.2. worship diu [...]ls Let men feign to themselues what difference they l [...]st. But it must be proued (sayth Mr Bern.) that our churches were built by Antichrist. First God in his law required no such proof, when he com­manded utterly to destroy al the places wherein the nations which Israel should possesse serued their Gods; Deut. 12.2.3. whether it were in the groue which Abraham himselfe had Gen, 21, 33, planted, or on the altars which he had Gen 12, 7 8. &, 13, 4 &c, builded; the law of God made no inquiry Secondly, If M, Bern. will seek the records of his temples, he may find many to haue been builded by Papists, if he will grant that they be Antichristians: or if he will goe f [...]rther, he may finde some of them builded by heathens, and dedicated to Diuils. But though the Records sayd nothing, yet the form and shape of these masse howses, proclayme them to be the uery shrines of idols, and lyable to the Curse.

Thus are we come to an end with M, Bernard; passing by his imper­tinent discourses, which in his rouing he ran into: leauing him also for his unchristian reproches, and iniurious calumniations, to the mercy or iudgment of the Lord, who Iude vers. 14.15. behold commeth with ten thows [...]nds of his Saincts to giue iudgment against all men, and to rebuke all the vngodly among them, of all their wicked deeds which they haue wickedly committed, and of all their cru­ [...]l speakings, which wicked sinners haue spoke [...] against him.

THE MINISTERS POSITIONS SHAKEN.

THere is added to Mr Bernards book, an other work intituled; CERTAIN POSITIONS held and maynteined by some godly ministers of the gospel, against those of the separation, and namely against Barrow & Greenwood. The groundwork whereof is thus layd;

That the Church of England is a true Church of Christ and such a one as from which whosoeuer wittingly and continually separateth himselfe, cutteth himselfe [...]ff from Christ

I will not stand vpon the consequences that may be made of this posi­tion, whereby all that abhorr [...]ng the abominations in that church, and so separating from it, are quite cut off from Christ, whatsoeuer truth they profe [...]e and walke in, or whats [...]euer other church they ioyne vnto: but I will insist in a brie [...] answer to that which these Ministers bring to proue this their peremtory sentence, and they be 4. reasons.

1, For that they enioy and ioyne togither in the use of those outward meanes which God in his word hath ord [...]yned for the gathering of an inuisible Church: that is, preaching of the gospel, and administration of the sacraments.

2. For that their whole church maketh profession of the true faith.

3. For that th [...]y hold and teach &c. all truthes fundamental.

4. For that all known churches in the world acknowledge that church for the [...]r sister, and giue vnto her the right hand of fellowship.

These things haue been before handled in this treatise, and the weak­ne [...]e of them discouered: yet because it may be thought new men will make new arguments, and many heads together bring forth deep coun­sels, let us weigh what these godly ministers haue here sayd.

For proof of the first poynt, 1 Reason, they doe allege that the meanes which they vse and enioy haue been effectuall to the vnfained conuersion of many: as may appear both by the other fruites of faith that may be found amongst them, and by the martyrdome which sundry haue endu [...]ed &c: yea euen we our selues are able to witnes with them, that if there be any true faith and sanctification in us, it was begun and bred in th [...]ir assemblies,

Secondly, that if Mat. [...]8.18.20 Eph. 4, 11.12.14 be well examined, it wil [...]e found that the meanes which Christ ordeyned for the gathering of an inuisible church are the very same which they enioy euen the preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments.

I answer; All this that they say will not proue their, Position, Answ. namely that the church of England which consisteth of the whole nation, diuided in to many dioceses and parishes, vnder one or two Archbishops &c. is a true church of Christ. For the Papists boast of all these things, as colou­rable and as truely as these ministers Their priests haue conuerted ma­ny from Pagenisme, Iudaisme, and profanenes of life; their church hath had many martyrs; Luther and others that first left them, had their faith begun in their assemblies; &c. and whatsoeuer Ministery is in England, from the Archprelate to the halfe priest, the Papists, haue amongst them [Page 118] yea Engl. had it from them. And it is to be admired that these godly ministers can allege nothing for their church, but such old popish stales.

How vainely they assume these things vnto themselues, hath been shewed befo [...]e: See before p. 37.42.43. fruits of faith appear no [...] in their confuse assemblies wh [...]re God is publ [...]ckly dishonoured by false worship; his enemies (profane & wicked people) fostered and ble [...]sed with his most holy things, and An­tichristian prelates, and Canons obeyed:

Were it as they say, that many haue been conuerted, is that [...]enough to make all the church? We haue testimonies from their See before p. 2.107. own mouthes that there be swarmes and thowsands of profane, irreligeous, atheists, blasphemers and open wicked liuers Mr Gifford a champion of their own hath confessed and printed it that Coūtry divinity: in th [...] Epis [...] de dic. through want and absence of [...] sincere ministery, there is a flood of ignorance and darknesse ouerflowing the most part of the land: the fear of God is banished from the greatest part: the wonder­full heaps and piles of sinne, which should be washed and clensed away by the word, doe undoubtedly with one voyce cry alowd in the eares of the Lord for ve [...] ­geance vpon the whole realm &c Shal now a few supposed conuerts, mak [...] all this rowt a Christian church? It is impiety, and an ouerthrow of the Gospell. Gen. 3.15. 2 Cor. 6.14, 18, Mat, 15.13. Reu. 21..2:3.27. and 28.15.

What meane these Ministers to boast so much of their martyrs whose blood cries against them, in the eares of the Lord of hosts. For did not their church kill them? Let one of themselues speake in this case, least we be thought partiall. Ios, Nich. Plea. of the innocent. p. 236. Who knoweth not (sayth Mr Nichols,) how much blood of Gods Saincts. was spilt in former ages, and how many howses were guil­ty of blood? And when did this land serio [...]sly and sincerely humble it selfe. & by [...]pen repentance make reconciliation for the same? Nay rather how many thow­sands repined at the happy reign of her maiesty, for the casting out of the idola­trous and superstitious worship of God, and for the establishing of his holy nam [...] and the liberty in preaching of the G [...]spell? This testimony is known to b [...] true; the greater is their sinne that now plead for such a people to be a true Church of God. Shall the Cainites be honoured for Abels martyr­dom; or the Iewes for crucifying Christ? then also may the bloody gen [...] ­tion of Papists be canonized for Saincts, and made members without r [...] pentance) of a christian church. And for these ministers, let them heart and make vse of Christs words to their predecessors. Luk. 11.47.48. Woe unto you, for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them Truly y [...] bear witnes and allow the deeds of your fathers, for they killed them, and y [...] build their sepulchres. Mat. 23.3 [...], Fulfil ye also the measure of your Fathers.

It is a slight and simple kinde of reasoning, to tel us if those scripture [...] Mat. 28. Eph. 4. be well examined; it will be found that the meanes which Christ ordeyned for the gathering of an inuisible church, ar the uery same which they inioy. First, what doting Friar will not say this much, for his popish Synagogue? Then, why doe not these ministers bring the meanes they boast of to the examination by these scriptures: is it yenough (think they [Page 119] to the examination by these scriptures: is it yenough (thinke they) to cite a text or two, and then ran away; The scriptures they allege haue been Pag, 13 & 102, 103. before examined and the ministers of Engl. being put into the other ballance, are found all too leight. But if it were true that they had the mean [...]; yet their argument is false if they conclude of the effect. Israel had farr better meanes; then England I am sure: for the Prophets, and Apo­stles and Christ himselfe preached among them Yet loe he complay­neth Isa. 49, 4. that he had laboured in vayne; for Ierusalem Mat. 23.37. killed the Prophets, and stoned those that were sent vnto them, and the Lord by his Apostles Rom, 10.31. stretched forth his hand to a disobedient and gainsaying people. And shall we thinke that the Pr [...]ests of Engl. haue such power and grace tied to their lips, that because they haue [...]reached, therefore the whole nation is a true church? Or dot [...] there such vertue proceed from these ministers, as can make the multitu [...]e of swaggering professors, atheists, blasphemers, and all sorts of profane which swarme in the land, to be turned Christians. worthy to be washed and fed with the body and blood of, Christ. and yet con­tinue atheists and profane as before? what wondrous effect shall we next hear of, but that their preaching hath conuerted the Diuils also.

But let us hear what testimony M. Gifford hath left beh [...]nde him, of the gra [...] & learned pr [...]achers of the church of Engl: among whom himselfe was one,) and of the people in their parishes, The Diull ( Coūtry diuinity fol. 48. sayth he) is content those preachers should ride vpon his back because he is sure they will not spurg all him: they be very gentle riders. Doe ye not thinke, that if they should set forth Gods word as they ought, and spread the light: that all wicked, (of which their parish is full,) would storme and fret against them? the Diuill himselfe would fi [...]k about, if they should spur him but a little. But they can tell a smooth tale in the pulpit garnished with some merry story, for to make the people merry or els some old rotten allegory; or some far fetched matter out of some great wri­ters, that their people may be at their wits end and admire, admit them. A man would thinke to see the people come out of the church blowing, that they were fed as ful as tikes: when they goe home with emty bellies. This I dare warrant, if it be not so let me loose both mine eares, that g [...]e through the parishes of these gra [...]e and learned Diuines and except such as run to fetch their victuals otherwhere, ye shall not finde fi [...]e among fiue skore, which are able to vnderstand the necessa­ry grounds and principles of religion: and yet the People will say, they be excel­lent deep men. But I loue not those welles which are so deep, that a man can draw no water out of them. Loe here the means which the, parishes of England doe enioy, and worthy effects that follow. If Mr Barrow. or any of vs, should I haue written this, it would haue been counted s [...]ffing, r [...]yling, & blasphemy: but now that Mr Gifford, (so worthy a patron of the church) hath thus recorded, I hope the witnes wilbe thought irrefragable And now let these godly ministers examine Mat 28. & Eph. 4 and see if there they can finde these meanes which they enioy, iustified.

But they proceed and tel vs in their second reason that pag. 116. their whole church maketh profession of the true faith. 2. Reason. For the Confessiō of their church tegither [Page 120] togither with the Apologie thereof, and those articles of religion agreed vpon in the Conuocation howse, anno 1562, doe proue this euidently. But herein they would deceiue the simple euidently: for first profession of the true sayth, when men in practise doe deny it, maketh them not a true church, but they are as the Apostle sayth, Tit. 1.16· abominable.

Then for profession it selfe, if it be by constreynt, for fear of punish­ment, by m [...]n that otherweise are profan [...], lewd, and dissolute and ene­mies to the gospell this is no true profession, such as will make men a true church, for they ought to receiue and professe the truth willingly and gladly Psal, 110.3. Act. 2 41. Now we know that with them, men were and are forced to the profession they make, and if it were at their own choise, many thowsands would professe otherwise. Their own acts and Monuments, (besides manifest experience) doe witnes this. For Mr Fox reporteth, that when K. Edward had established this church and re­ligion many people Act & monu. edi. 5. pag 11 [...]7, 1190 in Cornwal. Deuenshire and other places, not one­ly misliked it, but openly rebelled for their old idolatrie. The Preists, though some allowed, yet others ibidem pa 1184. dissembled, and many carelessly con [...]em­ned all, and still excercised their old mon [...]ed Popery. The Iustices &c were not onely pag 1185 slack in furthering of religion, but hindred so much as lay in them the Kings proceedings &c. So that ciuill force, not Christian zelo made men Protestants in that Kings dayes: wherefore at his death, hauing gotten Q. Mary, they so [...] vp agayn their Romish superstition, and persecu­ted the other vnto the death. Til Q. Elisah came, and inforced them the second tyme to put away the [...]r Latin Masse and images, and receiue that English seruice and ceremonies, wh [...]ch since haue preuayled to this day, Wh [...]ch how willingly the people ye [...]lded vnto, Mr Nichols testimony (to omit all others) before alleged, sheweth.

And How wel this religion is liked of now after so many yeres▪ let the multitude of church papists in England shew: together with the whole row [...] of rebels in Ireland, all which are of the communion of the church of Engl, hauing the same Bishops, Priests, service & [...] the English and Irish that dwel in the country, being ioyned togither in one body and brotherhood: Then adde to these papists, the profane time-seruers, such as M. Gifford deseribeth thus, Coūtry diuinity. fol. 2 [...] I know there be many which care not for the Pope, but yet beleeue much of his doctrine: they be those which we call Atheists of no religion: but look whatsoeuer any prince doth set forth that they will profess and add vnto them those other firarmes in the church of England that Mr Chaderton complayneth of; eronius and hereticall sectaries, witches, char­mers sorcerers, murtherers, theeues, adulterers, liars, &c and all these togi­ther being compelled by law into one church and brotherhood, can any man doubt now of that which these ministers, Serm. on Rom. 12. p. 65.66. say, that their whole church maketh profession of the true faith?

The Confession, Apologie. and Conuocation-howse articles, are strange proofs of the peoples profession. If a few men in their Studies or Con­sistories, write books or articles of religion. and send them a broad; must [Page 121] all people that see or hear them, wil they nil they, needs be counted professors of that religion? yea such also as neuer heard of them in their liues nor cānot tel what they meāe? Surly these ministers ar eyther very igno­rant, or carelesse what they say, when they call this an euident proof. The churches in France and Belgia haue published Confessions and Articles also, better then those in England: yet are there thowsands and ten thowsands dwelling among them, that neyther so professe, nor are members of their churches.

But if it were granted that the publicke writings, articles canons &c. are to be esteemed the faith & profession of all Engl. yet we deny them to make profession of the true faith; for their Seruice book, homilies. book of Ordination, with the impious canons confirming all the Romish idolatries, Antichristian clergie and ceremonies that are among them, excommunicating, See before p. 56. ipso facto, all that speake against them; this is no true Christian profession, whatsoeuer other truthes are mixed with them. For as the Papists holding many good grounds of religion in generall, yet by other additions and contradictions, do ouerthrow the truth: so is it in England, as before in this treatise, and in many others, hath been proued and after shall further appear.

Whereas these Ministers confidently deny that their church accounteth any one for her childe or member, that doth not professe the faith of Christ in some measure: it is nothing but a vayn flourish. For was there euer such gross­nes in the deepest gulfe of Popery as to deney Christ utterly, and not to professe him in some measure? Nay it could not be the throne of Antichrist vnlesse he did professe Christ. It is wel known, none are baptised among the Papists, but they professe the very same faith that is now professed at the baptisme in Engl. namely that which they call th' Apostles Creed So then what haue these godly ministers sayd more then the simplest papist in the world could haue sayd for his church? Now in that they make this a colour, as if the profane and wicked were not accounted children of the church: they shew themselues to be Hos. 9.8 the snare of a fowler in al their wayes: yet set they a snare so slight, that euery man may breake it. For who knowes not that there be multitudes of profane and wicked persons in the land? Who knowes not that the whole land generally is baptised? Yea the baptisiing of the seed of the most wicked, is not onely practised but befended in print, by their late Archbishop D. Whitg. who pleaded Answer to the admon. pag. 111. what if it be the child of a dronkard, or of an harl [...]t? what if the Parents be papists? what if they be heretiks? &c. shall not their children be baptised? Yes, he will haue it to be a common passage for all uile persons, Good and euil (sayth Defense of the answer to the adm, pag. 621. he) clean and vnclean, holy and profane, must needs passe by it. And at baptisme their seruice book teacheth the priest to say of euery one, we receiue this child into the congregation of Christs flock. Being thus receiued, not one of a thowsand wicked persons, are euer excommunicated: but are fostered in the church vntill their death; and then the priest is taught agayn to say that Seruice a [...] burîall. it hath pleased God to take vnto himselfe the sowle of their [Page 122] dear brother there departed, and so he committeth his body to the ground in sure and certayn hope of resurrection to eternal life. This being the gene­rall state of the land, as all men know; what dissemblers are these Mini­sters to intimate. as if their church acknowledged not the open wicked for her children and members? Mr Gifford, when tyme was, yeilded farr o­therweise. I confesse Dialog, betweē a Pap & a protes. fol 38. (sayth he) that our church, if ye vnderstand the whole assembly, is ful of al wicked vices. There are a number among vs which are of your brood, speaking to a [...]apist,) wh [...]se euill life is seen wel yenough, there ar [...] a very great number of meer worldlings which doe not greatly esteem any religion although they seem now because of lawes, to allow and fauour our side. &c.

Now hauing sayd somewhat for themselues, such as it is, they cauil pag. 167. at our description of a church, when we say, that it is a company of faith­full people that truely worship Christ and rea [...]ly obey him. This say these Ministers, is vtterly vntrue if it be understood of the visible church. This is strange. What would they haue vs describe the Church to be a company of infidels; or a company of faithfull and of infidels togither: when Paul teacheth that there is no communion between such, 2 Cor 6.14.15 or should we say, a people that falsely worship Christ? Indeed if so we held, we might wel returne to their Church of England; for there is false worship more then yenough. The Apostle writing to the visible church of Ephe­sus, calleth them Eph, 1, 1. Saincts, and th [...] faithfull in Christ Iesus. Wil they say that this also was utterly untrue? Their own Articles of religion in England Ano 1562 art. 19. say thus; the visible church of Christ, is a congregation of faithfull people &c. and is this also vtt [...]rly vntrue? But let vs hear their reason why this should be vntruth. For (say they) if euery one that the church may account a visible member, be truely faithfull, how is our Sauiour to be vnderstood when he compareth the chur [...]h or ministery thereof to a draw net gathering aswel that which must be cast away as good fish &c. Me thinks these godly ministers f should be ashamed so to depraue not onely our meaning, but our very words, that when we say of faithfull people, that truely worship, they wil turne and trans [...] lace them to truely faithfull, and then gather (as afterwards they doe,) as if men may not account any to be members of the church, by their out­ward profession, vnl [...]sse they know them to haue true faith, which the Lord one­ly is able to dis [...]rne. Could any reasonable man thus construe our words, or gather from them, vnlesse he purposely would depraue? especially knowing (as these men know wel) our constant witnesse otherweise, who esteeme of all men, by their outward profession and walking; and haue long since published in our Confussion, Art, 17· that many hypocrites will lurke in the church whiles it is on earth. But thus it pleased these men to abuse vs, before the simple reader.

Their third reason for their church is, that pag, 168 they hold teach and maynteyn every part and article of Gods holy truth which is fundamentall. The proof of this, 3. Reason, they would haue to be seen in their Confessions, Catechisnes and Ar­ticles of religion published and approued of in their church.

[Page 123]This reason is like (if not the very same with) the former, which s [...]ake also of professing the true faith, as was to be seen in their Conf [...]s [...]n, Answer, Apolo­gie, & Articles. What meane these ministers to cloy their reader so oftē with one dish of meat, a little diuertly dressed? It is doubtlesse for want of better store. Yet this wh [...]ch they bring is very vnsauoury, for it is not seasoned with the salt of Gods couenant. First for that poynt of f [...]ndamentall truth, which they so long haue stood vpon, and co [...]ld neu [...]r be got­ten distinctly to shew what truth is fundamental, and what not: we haue now these ministers resolute judgement of it thus, pag. 174. The onely fundamental truth in religion is this; That Iesus Christ the Son of God, who took our nature of the Virgin Mary, is our onely and alsufficient Sauiour For proof of this, they first allege, that th [...]y receiue this truth are the people of God, and in the state of saluation: they that receiue it not cannot possibly be saued. Mat. 16.18 Mark. 16.16 1 I [...]h. 4.2. Col 2.7.

But first, none of these scriptures doe say, that this one article, which these ministers haue set downe in this forme of words, is the onely funda­mentall truth in religion. Neyther doth any other scripture, that I know of, so speake; for though Christ 1 Cor. 3.11. onely is the foundation of the Christian church; and though (as they secondly allege) no other point of religion is necessary otherwise then as it tendeth necessarily to teach or confirme this one truth: yet foloweth it not, but other points also are fundamental truthes the denyall of which will abolish from Christ.

Secondly they haue altered, added to, and omitted some of the words of these scriptures, for their own aduantage: For fearing that we would (as indeed we mean to doe) presse them with the profession of the Ana­baptists Papists and other heretiks; they thinke to preuent vs. And first against the Anabaptists which deny that Christ took our flesh, these men haue added, who took our nature of the Virgin Mary. Then against the pa­pists which hold merit of works, they adioyne these words, our onely and alsufficient Sauiour. And this because the church of England mainteyneth the truth in these points, against those fore sayd heretiks. On the other hand to help themselues in their corrupt Antichristian walking, and false constitution; they omit and mention not th' Apostles words Col. 2. wher he sayth, vers. 6.7. As ye haue receiued Christ Iesus the Lord, so walke in him, rooted and built in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye haue been taught &c The discreet reader may soon espy their purpose in this cunning cariage. Mat 16.16. For let the position be set downe in the scripture termes, and we shall see, how weake their plea will be. The onely fundamentall truth in religion is this: That Iesus is 1 Ioh 4.2. the Christ, the sonne of the liuing God, Mark. 16 16. comen in the flesh in whom we must Col. 2.6.7. beleeue and h walke, being rooted and build in him, and stablished in the faith as we are taught in the new testament.

If now these ministers will insist vpon the three first scriptures onely, and generall terms that are in them; it is apparant that the Papists, Ana­baptists and many other miscreants, doe hold and professe them abso­lutely: [Page 124] absolutely: But if they joyne with them, Colos. 2. and compare the wal­king rooting, building, and stablishing in the faith taught by th' Apostles, with the Popish church, or with their own; it wilbe found that neyther of them hold the fo [...]ndation Christ aright. Themselues w [...]ll grant it of the Pap [...]sts and other heretiks. and for their own church, it is before in this pag, 74. &c. treatise proued▪

So then to come agayn vnto their reason, that they hold, [...]e [...]ch and mainteyn euery part of Gods holy truth which is fundam [...]ntall; whereby they woul [...] concl [...]de themselues to be a true chr [...]ch the ar [...]ument is deney­ed. F [...]r first if [...]t were granted that th [...]y h [...]ld, [...]aught and mai [...]teyn [...]d every part of fund [...]ental truth, which yet with them is but one article onely as we haue heard,) it w [...]ll not follow necessaryly that therefore they are a true ch [...]rch, or that they truely professe the Christ an faith. There wan [...] two things; 1 obedience to the truth professed; (witho [...]t which men Ioh. 3, 36 Mat, 7.21 23 Rom. 2, 6.8. shalbe damned, whatsoeuer they professe,) 2 and a right profession of the true faith onely, without err [...]urs adioyned that ouerthrow the same faith, and obedience thereto For if a people profe [...]sing that onely fundamentall truth which these ministers pag. 174. speake of; should withall professe Mahomet the prophet of the Turks; or H. N. the God of the Familists; or any other like abomination: were this misceline profession of Christ and Belial togither. a true and sound profe [...]sion? I trow not. So then these ministers must alter their plea thus; that they hold teach mainteyn and obey every part of the fundamentall truth, and nothing els with it, that ouerthrowes the same. If now they say this they doe, I haue before in this treatise pag, 74. &c. disproued it; and here agayn will briefly disproue it, thus. They professe to beleeu In the Creed, the Communion of Saincts; and that the visible church is Art. 19, anno. 1562 a congregation of faithfull people. Yet contrariweise they hold teach and mainteyne, that their own church is a true church of Christ; though it consists as wel of vnholy as holy, infidels as beleeuers and innumerable wicked persons openly seen and known. That this they hold & mainteyn, is pro [...]ed by their continual clamors and reprochful writings against vs, that call vpon them for a separation of light from darknesse. It is proued by Dr W [...]itgifts plea before mentioned, that the children of Papists, heretiks, and other wicked persons are and ought to be bap­tised amōg the [...] It is further proued by the visible estate of their church knowne vnto all among them, and test [...]fied by her dearest freinds & fa­uourers. M [...] Gifford speaking to his brethren [...]f the Communion of Saincts in Engl. sayth, Coūtry, diuinity, fol. 19. Yee would euen powr out your stin [...]ing and r [...]t [...]en p [...]yson, like blaspemous and venemous beasts: ye would speake after this manner, you that are so full of the spirit; you that are Saincts, and su [...]h like. What are you Di [...]ils; are ye of the flesh? No do [...]ut ye are, vntill God convert ye. But we may se how diui [...]ishly men ar become wicked: when a man cannot make any ap­pearance to be godly and holy, but it is reproched as though it were a shamefull thing to be lead by the spirit &c. These and the like records, with the con­tinuance [Page 125] continuance in this confused estate, plainely proue an ouerthrow of that article of the true church; which is the body of Christ: and the bo­dy being disanulled, Christ the head cannot soundly be reteyned.

Agayn, they professe in Engl. that Art. 19. anno 1562 the pu [...]e word of God is to be prea­ched, the sacraments duely administred &c. also, that ibid, art. 17, in our doings, that will of God is to be followed which we haue expresly decleared vnto vs in the word of God. Yet withall, they professe and practise in that church, to Book of cō mon prayer read the Apocrypha [...]criptures (in which are found vntruthes and er­rors, when many parts of the authentik scripture, are neuer read among them.) they haue also written Art. 35. anno, 1562 homilies, in sted of preaching; a written Le [...]tourg [...]e, Letany, collects &c. in sted of praying; which Consti. & canōs, 1603 Leitoargie with all the popish contents therein. must be approued and vsed by all the Priests and people, and God serued by it euery day. They haue also an antichristian clergie, ca [...]led and ordeyned according to their ponti­fical, or book of ordination, which [...]n their beleef, Art. 36, ano. 1562 hath not any thing that of it selfe is s [...]perstitious and vngodly &c. Finally all the Romish reliques yet in England to be seen in the hierarch [...]e, worship, ceremonies, ordinan­ces church constitution &c. (which things can neuer be approued by the word of God,) are yet Canōs, anno 1603. & their practise ac­cording. held and vpheld, taught and mainteyned in the church to the excommunicating and persecuting of all such, as speake against them, or refuse to communicate with them. This sinfull mixture, and maintenance of so much ant [...]christian error, with the christian truthes that they profe [...]e; is no true Christian profession and prac­tise of our obedience vnto the fundamentall truth of the gospell: ney­ther can the ministers proue, that these contraries will stand together, when account shalbe giuen before the iudgment seat of Christ.

Secondly I answer (as to their former reason that although some Bi­shops and Priests haue written Articles, Catechismes &c. yet are not these approu [...]d, much lesse walked in, by the church of Engl. neyther are the people rooted, b [...]ilded, and stablished in the faith according to Colos. 2. but are di [...]olute and profane in their conuersation, rooted in uices, and sta­blished in iniquitis as lamētable experience teacheth all men; as the te­st [...]mon [...]es of their own ministers before alleged proue, and many o­ther we might allege, and must; if these men still continue to vrge that, which is knowne to be farr otherweise. For how well their people doe walke in the faith of the foundation Christ, and approue of all fundamentall truthes in the scriptures; let these testimonies of their own freinds shew. The most part of your honest men (saith Mr Gifford Country Devinity fol. 73 to and of his brethren) now a dayes, delight so much in the word of God, and meditate so much in it, that they care not a button though they neuer heare it. they loue it: and set as much by it as they doe by an old s [...]e. Euery man (sayth Preface to Mr, D. Fenners Coūterpoys an other) followeth the pride couetousnes, whordome, dronkennes, of his owne hart, and no man remembreth Ioseph. The barrs are filled with pleadings, & the streets are full of cries of the poor, fulnes of meat, and contempt is among vs, and who [Page 126] considereth! Yet if this our sinne were onely against men, and not against God there [...]ight be some hope. But when the mouth of the bl [...]spemous swearer is not ti [...]d vp, and the hands of the idolatrous generation of Atheists and profane persons be not chained, when the most holy and precious word of God is manifestly contemned, the ioyfull and heauenly tidings of saluation so negligently and vn­gratefully troden vnder foot, the true and faithfull messengers pursued, arraygn­ned and diuers wayes [...]fflicted: then if the old world for malicious imaginations Sodome and Gomora for pride fulnes of meat and vnmercifulnes: if Ierusalem for abusing Gods Prophets and wilfulnesse were woefully destroyed: what may we poor carelesse People look for it we doe not repent, but (as it is almost vniuer­sally feared sp [...]edy ruine and vtter desolation,

The exceptions which these Godly ministers take against Mr Bar­rowes writings, and yet professe pag, 169. not to answer them; need not now to be stood vpon, till the particulars whereby he hath discouered their errors and euill dealings, be by them taken away. They further taxe & note it in him as pag. 173. a strange opinion and an error full grosse, mainteyned in pag. 156.157. of his Discouery, vidz that euery truth conteyned in the scrip­ture is fundamentall. But the grossnes or crossnes wilbe found in themselus for that which Mr Barrow there inueigheth against, was this, Discouer. Pag. 156. that though transgressions and errors be obstinately continued in, and openly taught. after they be reproued and conuinced by the word of God, yea and the parties dye in that estate without repentance of these transgressions or errors: yet may they hold the foundation and be vadoubtedly saued. Of this minde were, and still continue (sayth he) fiue of the very principal and best esteemed ministers of Engl. both for learning and conscience: although there were alleged against the same these expresse scriptures, Num. 15.30 31. Exod. 23.21. 1 Sam. 15.22.23. Ezek. 18.26 Mat. 5, 18, 19 Iam. 2 10. &c.

This was the thing that M, Bar. there bet down, shewing further, that if the whole scripture was giuen by inspiration of God, and is profitable to teach, to conuince, 2 Tim 3, 16 Prov. 30.5 Psal. 19.8. & 12.6. Psa. 119 entyre. Eph, 2 20. to correct, to instruct in righteousnes; if it be the groundwork and foundatiō of the church, of our fayth: if it be the law and rule of our life, the light of our eyes &c. If euery word of God be holy, pure, perpetuall; then is this deep learning of theyrs, diuilish and blasphemous, that thus to colour and couer their wickedness. make some part of gods word fundamentall. substantiall, necessary, other accidentall, superficiall, needlesse, especially where it sheweth reproueth and condemneth their doings &c

Now what say these ministers against this plea? they plainly yeild in effect to th'truth, which they could with no coulour gainsay; we beleeu (say Pag. 174 they) and teach, that there is no Part of holy scripture, which euery Christian is not necessarily bound to seek, & desire knowledge of so far sorth as in him lyeth. Very wel sayd &; had they added also this word obeyed, (which I suppose they would be thought to intimate,) there would be no difference be­tween M, Barrow and them, though thus they would traduce him. But least they should seeme to condemne themselues, they except. yet dare [Page 127] ibid [...]m. we not cal euery truth fundamentall; that is, such as if it be not knowne and obeyed, the whole religion and fayth of the church must needs fall to the ground; and agayne; pag, 173, we doubt not that some parts are of more vse, and more necessa­ry for men to know, then othersome. In these things (excepting the word fundamentall which seemeth to be but strife about a word,) We agree with them; neyther doth Mr Barrow, that I can perceiue disagree for it is one thing not to know and obey euery truth, as they speake, and another thing to know, as hau [...]ng reproofe and conuiction by the word of God, and yet to disobey and rebel against the truth, and continue obstinately in trans­gre [...]sion▪ which was the poynt in hand. And for the world fundamentall, seing all Gods testimonies are true; and Dauid sayth that the Lord hath Psal. 119 152. founded them for euer; I see no cause why we need be afraid to call eue­ry tr [...]th fundamentall that is such as is firme and stable. and on which we shovld ground and builde our faith and actions vp on alwayes. Yet seing now what these ministers vnderstand by the word, I will not striue. Also M, Barrow himselfe in his Obseruations vpon Mr Giff [...]rds last reply telleth him that he Answe to Artic 5 denyeth not in vse of speech such distinction, so much as withstand such eronius abuse of that distinction, which M. Gifford and other deuines of these tymes would infer thereof. And in deed the simple are much beguiled by this subtile distinction. For when the sinns and idolatr [...]es of these Priests are blamed: answer is made, though they be sinns, yet are they not fundamentall, they cut vs not off from Christ we hold him the foundation, and beleeue to be saued by him alone and by this colour, men continue in transgression and idolatrie stil. which is as if a theef, dronkard, whormaister, blasphemer, or other vicious, li­uer, being blamed by the lawes of God which condemne these sinnes, should say; These are petty faults I confesse, but they are not fundamental: for the onely fundamentall truth and ground of all Gods law is Loue, and that is the fulfilling of the law. Rom. 13.8 9.10. Gal. 5.14. 1 Tim. 1.5. Now this foundatio [...] I hold, for I professe to loue God aboue al, and my neighbour as my s [...]lfe, on which ground as Christ sayth Mat. 22.40. the law and prophets doe depend; and this I doe, howsoeuer I cannot keep my tongue from swearing, lying and [...]i [...]auldrie, nor my hands from picking and stealing, nor my body chast, &c. yet my hart is good, I loue God and my neighbour, and hope to he saued as well as the precis [...]st puritan of them all, And now what will these ministers say to the [...]r profane parishioners, if thus they pleaded? for doe not themselues thus plead for the trans [...]reossins of the first table, and violating of the testament of Christ, in their own false ministery, idolatrous rites, ceremo­nies, and forged worship. But as euery true Christian hart knoweth that such profane ruffians, howsoeuer they say they loue god, yet in deed they hate him, and howsoeuer the s [...]mme and end of all the Law is Loue onely, yet that loue implyeth obedience to every particular pre­cept, and he which breaketh the least commandement and teacheth men so, shalbe called the least in the kingdome of heauen; as Christ Mat 5.12 sayth: [Page 128] so know they likeweise, or should know, that such superstitious idola­ters, false and Antichristian Prelates and priests, howsoeuer they boast of true fayth, yet by theyr works they deney it; and although Fayth in Christ be the foundation of Christian religion, yet in im [...]lieth necessarily Ioh 3.36. Rom. 1.5. obedience vnto the ordinances of his Testament, euen Ioh 13.14 Mat 28.20 whatsoeuer is commanded them therein; and as the curse is denounced against all the transgressors of Moses law Gal 3.10 in any part thereof; so they shall not escape vengeance Heb 2.2.3 & 3.7.8 & 10.26 &c. &. 12, 25. that wilfully despise the law of Christ or any part of his te­stament, confirmed with his precious blood. And if thus we vnderstand not and interpret those scriptures which sum vp al christianity in Christ; we must needs confesse that many false churches, euen Rome it selfe is a true church; seeing they doe professe such generall grounds of Christ, as by playn evidence of scripture seem sufficient vnto saluation, as appea­reth by Council Trident. Se [...]s, 3. compared with Rom. 10.9. Act. 8.37, 38. 1 Ioh. 4.2. Mark. 16.16. also Rhemes testam annot. on 1 Tim. 2.5. wher they professe, Christ by nature to be truely both God and man, to be that on eternall priest and redeemer, which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse, hath reconciled us to God, and payed his blood as a full and sufficient ransome for all our sinns, &c.

How beit, that these ministers stumble no more at that we professe, let them know, we hold euery generall head and ground of doctrine more necessary to be known, then ech particular branch of the same? & an error ouerthrowing a whole ground of religion, to be much more wicked then that which ouerturneth but a part thereof. Also that many of Gods church, are ignorant of sundry particular doctrines of the Gospell yea Psa [...] 9.12 all of vs in some, for none is perfect; yet that in some generall grounds, ignorance is damnable; and further that the wilfull and obsti­nate refusall or contempt of the least evident truth of the Gospel, is Ian. 3.2. deadly and damnable of it own nature. Neyther see we, how we should beleeue otherweise, vnlesse with the Papists we think some sinns veniall some mortall As for Mr Barrowes words from Ioh. 16.13. which also, these ministers mistaking doe Rom 6.23 1. Ioh 2.4.6 & 3.6.8.9 [...] pag. 171, mislike; it is evident by his own writings See cōfer. in th' Fleet with Mr. Hutch and D'Andrews 4 Reason, to the contrary otherwhere, that he meant not so erroniously as they collect. But that promise made to the Apostles, he applieth vnto all the members of Christ by proportion, though not in like measure. Which that it may be done, we learne of the Apostles themselues in other like cases. 2 Cor. 4.13. from Psalm. 116. Heb. 13.5.6. from Ios. 1 & Psal. 118. &c.

Their last reason is from the approbation of all the known churches in the world, which acknowledge this church (of Engl.) for their sister, and give vnto them the right hand of fellowship. This poynt is handled before in this treatise, pag. 9. &c. & 48 & 51. &c. vnto which places I refer the reader. Many scriptures and reasons these ministers allege from the pri­mitiue churches examples, that reioyced for. and saluted one another; & of [Page 129] and of the comfort that a church may haue in the communion and approbation of other churches. All which we grant; and d [...]e obserue, how fast [...]hey can cite scriptures for things that we deny not. But they say nothing for the controuersie between them and vs. which consisteth of these 3. poynts; 1 whither a people may not separate from euill and professe and walke in the truth vnlesse or vntill other churches allow them 2. whe­ther it be a necessary and vndenyable argument, that whomsoeuer other churches approue, they are true churches, and so must be esteemed of all men; 3 and whither the reformed churches at this day, doe approue of the church of England, in all or any of the differences for which we s [...] parate from them. The first of these is proved by all Gods commande­ments, which require euery man particularly to refrayn all evill, and doe that which is good: Exod. 20. The second is disproued by themselues in their writings against the Papists; who pressed them with such reasons. Let councels (sayth In the answer to Mr Raynolds preface. Mr Whitaker) be esteemed as they deserue: let their de­crees be examined by Gods word; and if they agree let them be receiued for that agreement: if not, let them be reiected for the contrary. To this agreeth their own Bishops Articles, ano 1562. Art. 21. and also their Apoligie; before alleged in pag. 92. this trea [...]ise; and finally Mr Bernards own counsel. (though perhaps he knew no more then Caiaphas what he sayd.) saying; pag. 8. See in­to the glasse of the word by thine own sight, without other mens spectacles &c. For the latter poynt, we know the reformed churches (as their constitu­tion and writings shew) are for vs and against them; of which see before pag 10, &c. and it shall hereafter be further confirmed, if these ministers will deny it.

Hitherto of the reasons alleged by the godly ministers wherein how they haue proued and setled their first position; let the godly wise judge. Next follow their answers to the obiections made by vs. And these they make two.

First, that their church of Engl. was not gathered by such meanes as God in his word hath ordeyned and sanctified for the gathering of his Church. pag. 18 [...] Se­condly, pag. 191. that they communicate together in a false and idolatrous outward worship of God, which is polluted with the writings of men, vidz. with read slinted prayers, homilies, catechismes, &c.

Here let it first be obserued, that whereas Mr Barrow (whose books they would seem to answer,) hath Refut. of Giff pag, 1. giuen 4. causes of our separation, namely the 1. false worship, 2. profane people, 3 false ministery, and 4. Antichristian hierarchie; these godly ministers like the vniust steward Luk 16, 6 that set down fifty for fiue skore, haue contracted the 4. causes into 2. for what cause let him that readeth consider.

Secondly in the two which they professe to answer, they keep not the words by Mr Barrow there set downe; as to begin with the first; he sayth For that the profane vngodly multitudes without exception of any one person are with them receiued into and reteyned in the bosome of the church These Refut pag 1 [Page 130] ministers set down the poynt to be about the not gathering by due meanes. Whereas if it were granted that they had due meanes of gathering, yet the exception made is of force against them, rather more then lesse for they that haue the true meanes of gathering a church, and yet gather it amisse; the greater is their sinne.

Now to the particulars, whereas Mr Barrow had first Dis, p, 8. shewed by many scriptures and reasons what manner persons were to be the mat­ter of Gods church; and then compared here with the people of the church of Engl. where all sorts of wicked persons are admitted & kept in communion: to this the ministers answer, pag. 182.183, Ioh 20.19. First that they might law­fully be accounted a true church, though it could not appear that they were at the first rightly gathered. For euen as the Disciples might be wel assured of Christs bodily presence amongst them when they saw and felt him, though they could not haue discerned which way or how he could possibly come in. so may we esteem them a true church, of whose present profession and faith we are wel assured, though we cannot see by what meanes they were first gathered. This answer of theirs is full of errour and frawd; for, (not to speake how they corrupt Mr Barrowes words in the places which they quote; by leauing out things of speciall importance,) first they blamed because all profane & wicked persōs ar of the mater their church; they tel us, they may esteem them a true church of whose present profession and fayth, they are wel assured. If this answer be direct and to the purpose then we must beleeue that the godly ministers are wel assured of the present profession and faith of all the lewd, profane. irreligious and wicked persons in the realm, which are members of the church of Engl. Against these was the exception made; for these the answer is giuen, vnlesse they answer their own fan­sies. and now what assurance the ministers have of such mens faith, let the faithfull iudge.

Secondly the similitude which they bring, is a great abuse of the rea­der, whome they would blinde with a false comparison; which if it were duely made, would make against them thus. As the disciples might be wel a [...]ured of Christs bodily presence when they saw and felt him &c. so men may he wel assured of the wickeds bodily presence in the church of Engl: when they see and feel them, as who doe not? But now as these men haue made the parable, what likelihood of truth is there in it, for iustifying the vngodly? If a man seeing a Priest in bed with one of the Popes courtizans, should blame him for this fornication, and an other to defend him should plead thus; As we are sure that Sarah was Abrahams wife, though we cannot tell when or how they were married. so may wee esteeme these two (of whose present chascity we are wel assured,) to be lawfull man and wife, though we cannot tel how they came together; would this be a sufficient defence? Yet loe when Mr Barrow blamed Dis. p. 10. the Priests of England for linking themselues in the bed of spirituall loue, with the idolatrous Pa­pists and all other wicked of the land, at the beginning of Q. Eliz. and [Page 131] continuing in like sinful commixtur vnto this day: these Ministers now, to saue their credit, tel vs an example of Christ presence, &c. as before is seen. Yea the indignity of it stayeth not here; for as the Apostle by the Ministery of the gospell prepared the church of Corinth, as a pure virgin for her husband Christ, so these men pretending to be true Ministers, 2 Cor 11.24 will haue Papists, Atheists, profane and wicked persons, to be Hephzi-bah I [...]a. 62, 4. people in whome God delighteth; they will bring this sinfull and adulte­rous generation, even all the vngodly in the land, vnto the bed of Christ in his church, whether he will or no Which high transgression, is the o­uerthrow of the mayn ground of the gospell; which euer since it began to be sounded in the world, hath proclamed a separation of the children of God from the children of Belial, as before hath bene proued. This being thus obserued, how these ministers haue missed at first o [...] the question; the further they goe, the further they stray, and run themselues out of breath in vayn. For neyther the examples of Melchisedek, Iob, Cornelius &c. nor their reasons following of 2 other meanes of gathering the church then by the preaching of the Gospel; 3 of the preaching of Mr. Wickliff. &c 4 & 5 of the course that Q Elizab. took for bringing the Gospell in agayne &c. none of these (I say) will proue eyther that open profane and wicked persons, may be receiued and kept in the bozome of the church; or that there be not multitudes of open profane and wic­ked, members of the church of England. Their present lamentable e­state proclaymeth this latter to all men that haue conscience; their own writings also heretofore doe strongly confirme it: and all the scriptures cry out against the former & teach a separation as before in this treatise, and in sundry other books is manifested.

As these ministers have thus passed by the mayn controuersie; so haue they in their pretended answers, inserted some things corruptly and fraudulently: which I will briefly touch First, for to bolster out the con­streyned profession of faith, and ioyning to the church which their peo­ple are compelled vnto, they plead; pag. 185. that Synce Kings became noursing fathers &c. to the church; their lawes haue been means to bring men to the outward society of the church; and the parable proueth, that men may be compelled to come; Luk. 14, 23.

This doctrine openeth a dore in the church to all the profane in the world, contrary to the scriptures; Isa 25.2 & 35.8, 9.2 Chron. 23.19. Reu. 21.27. Leuit. 10.14. Zac. 14.21, 2 Cor. 6.14, 17. Act. 2.41. & 19.9. For if a prince may compel some of his subiects to be members of the church, he may compel al; and if one prince may doe it, all may. So if there were such an Emperor as Augustus that commanded Luk. 2.1, all the world to be taxed, he might also command and compell all the world to be ioyned vnto the church. And thus the world and the church, between whom there hath been perpetuall warr, mought soon be reconciled. If this be a lawfull and orderly course, it is strange that Christ sent forth poor fi­shermen to conuert sowles by preaching, and set not the princes, (which [Page 132] he could as easily have done, seing he had Ma 28, 18 al power in heauen, & in earth) to make disciples by compulsion and penalty.

Now for the parable they allege, it is apparant, that the same seruant was sent to vers 17.21.22, 23. compell, that was before sent to call the inuited: and if this be meant of the Magistrate then, kings must leaue gouerning and goe to preaching. We finde in the scripture, that compulsion is not alwayes by the ciuill sword, but sometime by instant and earnest vrging of the word and doctrine; as they that Gal 6, 12 compelled the Galatians to be circumcised; and he that Gal 2, 14 compelled the Gentiles to Iudaize. And from this word compell, to vrge or gather a ciuill forced compulsion, is with no more reason or colour, then as if some factious rebells should take vp armes for to stablish religion; and allege how it is written Ma 11, 12 the kingdome of heauen suffreth violence, and the violent take it by force For as force and vi­olence here, is not ciuill but spiritual; so is compulsion to be taken in the parable. But a throne (sayth Solomon) gets vp in a dronkards hand; and a pa­rable in the mouth of fools. Prou. 26.9.

They allege pag. 185. that the first conuersion of our land to the faith of Christ, was by preaching of the gospell. Whether this were so or not, remayneth for them to proue in their next book for in this they doe it not. They must ( I suppose) take the preaching of the gospel in a large sense, if they will proue it. For as it is vncertayn what was the fayth of the ancient Brit­taines, or how they were converted; so for the English Saxons which were conuerred from Paganisme, Mr Bale one of their own writers) saith Iohn Bale Cent. 1. scri Brit, fol. 35 that Austen the Roman was sent as an Apostle from Gregory 1. to conuert them to a popish fayth. And by an other Chronicler we learne Chr. Ra­nulph, Ci­ [...]er. that Pope Gregorie 1. sent this Austen the monk into Engl. with fourty monks moe, which entred the ile of Thennet on the east side of Kent, with a crosse & with banners displayed, hauing a crucifix painted vpō every one of them singing the Letany, with Orate pro nobis. to al Angels, Archangels, Patri­arches, Prophets, Priests, Apostles, Martyrs, Confessors, Virgins, Monks Nunns, Heremites, and finally to all hee Saincts and shee Saincts, that they might haue good luck, and wel to fare, in setting forth their Ro­mish religion. But howsoeuer the conuersion of English men was then (which is not now to be stood vpon till we hear the testimony of the best approued histories, which these men pag, 186. Rom, 1. 1 Cor 1 &c. say they haue for their assertion) it is sure by the scripures, that the churches in Rome. Corinth, and many other places were conuerted by the gospell: yet remayn they not true churches still. But (say these ministers) since that time many haue from age to age been called by the same means, And so say I, hath there been in Rome: yet is she a Reu, 17, harlot and not Christs spowse. Great numbers (say they) were effuectally called in K. Edwards dayes. I answer, the whole land was compelled by ciuill force to change their forme of seruice in part; and sundry true doctrines were taught in some places, which some bele­ued: but many disobeyed and rebelled. as before pag, 120. is shewed. Ney­ther was that confuse popish multitude with a few conuers therein, a [Page 133] true visible church. Mr Fox describeth the estate thereof by a similitude; a Act. and monū, edit, 5, p. 1180. a new face of things began now (sayth he) to appear, as it were in a stage, new players comming in, and the old being thrust out. Thus vpon that old stage of the popish church, came new players, to weet, new Bishops & Priests; and the ibid. pag. 1181. masse was then (at first) still by law reteyned, but the gospel and Epistle read in English; yet were not all new players for (as is ther noted) the preists and clergie that yeilded to the kings lawes, were suffred to keep th [...]ir places, liuings &c. After this the king appoynted the c Archbishop of Cant, with other Bishops &c. to make one conuenient and meet order, rite and fashion of common prayer and administration of Sacraments &c. who did so. Then in the Parliament following, it was agreed that all ministers in the realm should be bound to say and vse the mattins, euensong celebrating of the Lords supper &c. in such order and form as was mentioned in the sayd book and none other or otherweise. But the players, it seemeth, played not their parts well. for after complaint is made, how ibidem. pag 1186. by the cloked contempt, wil full winking, and stubborne disobedience of Bishops and old Popish curates; the book of common prayer was long after the publishing thereof eyther not knowne at all, or els very irreverently vsed through many places of the realm. Yet was there no great cause why the people should so despise it; for (as the K. answered to the rebels of Deuonsh.) ibidem, pag 1189. if the seruice in the church was good in Latin, it remayneth good in English; for nothing is altered, but to speak with knowledge, that which was spoken in ignorance. Now let the reader minde what was the estate of the church in those dayes; and see if the word of God will approve it.

But there were say pag, 186, these men) great numbers by preaching so effectually called, that in Q Maries reign, many sealed the truth with their blood: I ac­knowledge it; and say also that as there haue many martyrs died hereto­fore in the Popish church, so I doubt not, but great numbers at this day are by preaching so effectually called, in Rome, Spayn &c. that if Turks or Pagans should preuayl ouer them, they would mainteyn & seal Christian religion with their blood, rather then submit to Mahomet. For (as one of your best ministers hath truely sayd) M Dering 23, Lectur on Epistle to the He­brewes, pag, 186.187 God of his infinite goodnesse who c [...]lleth thyngs that are not as though they were, even in that ministery, hath giuen grace vnto his Saincts; &, it was impossible that the man of sinne should so much adulterat the word of God, but that it should be to the faithfull a gospel of salvation. It is further alleged, h there were sundry secret congregati­ons all Q Maries dayes which gladly receiued the gospell offred by Q. Eliz. & (say thes ministers) if it be sayd that they ceased to be the tru churchs of Christ, becaus they ioyned & became one body, with such as were newly come (and that not of conscience but for fear onely) from idolatrie: we answer, that they rather that-had fallen from the Gospel in Q. Maries dayes were moued by Q Eliz: proclamation, to ioyne themselues vnto them, that had stood faithfully all that while,

Here is still building vpon the sands, for the profane & popish multi­tude had not receiued the gospel before, but (as hath been shewed) wer [...] constreyned by K. Edw. against their wills to hear English Mattins in their churches, where they were wont to hear Lati [...] [Page 134] Latin masse; and were glad with all their hearts when their old blind de­votion did agayn take place, and they might suck the blood of such as spake against it. So they cannot rightly be sayd to fall from the gospel, which they neuer receiued. And what secret congregations there were in Q. Maries dayes, I know not: but if they were so secret, as onely they met now and then in priuate, and ordinarily went to church openly with Papists, they were not a true church of Christ. And that constreyned, v­nion of Papists and of Protestants at the beginning of Q Eliz reign, vn­der Archbishops, Bishops, Priests &c. with most of the same mattins, even­songs, rites, ceremonies &c. that before had been imposed; this order can neuer be warranted by the testament of Christ, nor such a commixture proued to be a true church.

And whereas it is noted for pag. 187. an other vntruth that Mr. Barrow and Greenu [...]. should say, that in one day by the blast of her Maiesties, trompet at the Beginning of her reign, all sorts of men were drawne to a prof [...]ssion of the gospell, without any further means vsed: these ministers may be seen to be mere cauillers, and bent to depraue. For the words euen as themselues haue set pag. 182. them down, (whereby the reader may espy their falshoode) were these, where such profane multitudes were all immediately from publicke idolatry at one instant receiued or rather compelled to be members of this church, in some parish or other, without any due calling to the fayth, by the preaching of the Gospell going before, or orderly ioyning together in the faith, there being no voluntary or particular confession of their own faith &c.

Now these men to reign an vntruth, yea an other vntruth when non [...] was afore, haue among other things, changed without any due calling to the faith into without any further meanes vsed; and then to conuince this their own fictiō, they tell vs of sundry preachers sent betweē Nouember & Midsommer that called many. But his neyther cleareth them of corrupt dealing, nor proueth that the whole realme which at Midsommer was compelled to this church, worsh [...]p, ministery, &c. was duely called vnto the fayth: much lesse that they orderly ioyned together in the same. So that the vntruth must rest in their own bosome.

pag. 188. This being proued (say these ministers) that there was a true Church in thi [...] land, before her Maiesties reign; the question must not be whether the meanes she vsed were the right meanes for the first calling and conuerting a people in the faith; but wether she took not a lawfull course for the recalling and reuni­ting of her subiects vnto those true professors, whose fellowship they had forsa­ken.

Loe how these men run on, as if they had proued that, whereof we haue yet heard scarce any shew of proof. And altering closely the question, they say there was a true church in the land; whereas they must prou [...] a true church of the land, as now it is and long hath been esteemed the Church of England, hauing an Archbishop and other officers ouer it, which [...]re in their Conuocation house, the Representative Church of England. So it no [...] [Page 135] not being a true church the examples, they allege of reformation by the Kings of Iudah, fit not their turnes; for Iudah was a true church, though some corruptions had crept in, as will easily doe into the best.) Abijah the predecessor of Asa, mainteyned Gods true religion, and worship a­gainst idolatrous Israel both 2 Cro 14.8 9.10. &c. by word and sword. So Asa found not his kingdome a false church, as K. Edw: & Q Elizab. found England: yet v­sed he that great care for reformation, mentioned, 2 Chro. 14. & 15. and his son Iehoshaphat after him greater care both to reforme and teach the peo [...]le. 2 Chron. 17. Afterwards when abominations had ouerspread the land, H [...]zekiah laboured a godly reformation, and opening the dores of the Lords house, he 2 Chr. 13 2.3. brought in the Priests and Leuites, not the Che­marins or Baals Priests, as the popish clergie (which their own notes on Reu. 9.3. acknowledge to be the Locusts of the bottomlesse pit) were brought in or rather reteyned still in this church, as Mr Fox sheweth, Hezekiah sent 2 Chr. 30 6. ouer all the land to conuert the people from idolatry; who vers. 10 laughed the messengers to scorne and mocked them howbeit vers. 11. divers submitted themselues and came to Ierusalem; and it was God that gaue vers. 11. Iudah a hart to obey the King and rulers according to his word Neyther were any admitted to the Passeouer but such as had voluntarily yeilded, repented, and eyther sanctified themselues, or els (being pre­uented through want of time) were vers. 12. healed (or clensed) of the Lord, at the Kings prayer. The other disobedient. Israelites God punished vers. 18 19.20. by the sword and slauery of Asshur, because they would not obey the voyce of the Lord their God. Finally Iosijah 2 Kin. 18 10.11.12: 2 Chr. 34. purged the land of idols & false worship, reduced his people vnto the true seruice of God; which they with himselfe had vers. 30.31.32. couenanted to walke in.

These examples we acknowledge al Christian princes should folow, hauing equall power with these Kings of Iudah, to abolish all idolatry within their dominions; yea and to punish obstinate idolaters, and not suffer any superstitious worship among their. subjects, Fides suadē da est non imperanda. Bern. in Cantic. but to procure their conuersion by the word, yet not to compell them to be members of the church, because they cannot giue them faith and repentance, which is the onely dore into vers. 30.31.32. Christs kingdome, and cannot be opened to any but by Mar 1.15 & 16.15. [...]6 Act, 2.37.38 & 8.36.377. Act 11.18. E [...]h. 2.8 God alone. Which doctrine and practise these ministers (if they would not learne out of holy writ) mought haue seen set forth in their own book of Martyrs; where when Ethelbert King of Kent was conuerted and Christened, and after him innumerable other daylie came and were adioyned to the church yet the King ( Act and monum. edi 5 pag. 105. sayth Mr Fox) compelled none; for he had learned that the faith and seruice of Christ, ought to be voluntary and not coacted.

I acknowledge the Godly and gratious disposition and care of K. Ed. & Q Eliz. at the first for restoring of the Gospel; to be worthy of purpe­tuall praise and memory: and the error that was, in reteyning the po­pish profane multitudes, the Antichristian clergie, the Romish worship [Page 136] worship turned into English, (some few grosse things left out;) and th [...] other euils yet to be seen in the ecclesiasticall estate; these I iudge are ra­ther to be im [...]uted vnto the false clergie men, which were trusted too much in thes matters & dealt not according to the trust reposed in them but sought to inrich themselves with the spoyles of Bable and of Iericho the Bishopricks benefices, and other like Romish reuenues, rather the [...] for the build the howse of God, vpon the foundations of Sion. And this sin cleaueth fast vnto these priests, euen to this day; who cannot endure to haue their portion spoken against, but thinke all As appeareth by D Downams. Serm. on 1. Tim. 3.1. 2 pag. 80.81.86.87. too little that they inioy; when as for discharge of their functions in teaching the people, the most conscionable among themselues haue complayned to the Parlia­ment 2 Admon fol. 43. that the word of God is negligently, fantastically, profanely and [...] ­thenishly preached; and all the land knoweth, that many ministers preach not at all.

Whereas these ministers tel vs pag. 190, of diuers congregations, that haue publik­ly professed their repentance for their former idolatry; it is well if so it be; & God giue them grace to goe forward in wel doing. But they tell vs not of any congregation that professeth repentance for their present idola­trie, or that renounceth the communion of the other impenitent and profane parishes: which they should also doe if they would be 2 Cor, 6, 1 [...], 18. the sonns and daughters of the Lord almighty. Nay we know that if any a­mong them doe this, they ar excommunicated ipso facto out of the church of England, by force of their canons, anno 160 [...].

Finally, whereas these Ministers doubt not to affirme, that the whole land in the parliament held in the first year of her Maiesties reigne, did enter into a solemn couenant with the Lord for renouncing of Popery, and receiuing the Gos­pel. First they set not downe what couenant the Parliament then made nor how they renounced Popery; and therefore that is to be iudged of, when it shall more particularly be produced Secondly if then the Par­liament house so did it is commendable in them but that the whole communialtie of the realm can be sayd to doe it with them, I vtterly deny. For howsoeuer all subiects are and ought to submit to the good ciuill lawes there enacted: and obedience may be inforced by Rom. 13 the sword, if any man resist: yet in cases of conscience euery man must liue by Hab. 2.4 his own faith; men must Act 2.4. gladly receiue the word out of which all religion must be gathered all Kings and kingdomes Psal. 2. submitting vnto the lawes and ordinances in Chr [...]sts Testament if they would haue blessing and saluation by him. And as the honourable in the Parliament, could not be baptised for the commons; so neyther could they repent or couenant with God for them: but the people must yeild their own willing con­sent, which they neuer did; but were and still are compelled by law and penalty to be of the church and religion established. Which how well they haue brooked, let the testimonies of the ministers before alleged, and the irreligious walking of many thowsands euer since manifest. For [Page 137] now our land is a reprouch to the idolatrous Papists Ke [...]. Sur 8, book in the preface 2 Obi [...]tio [...] for the multitude of Atheists and Machevillians that are therein.

The second thing (which these Ministers say) we obiect against the whole body of their assemblies is, That they communicate together in a false and idola­trous outward worship of God, which is polluted with the writings of men, vid. with read stinted prayers, homilies, Catechismes and such like. To which they giue this answer.

First it is euident by the word, Answer. that the church hath vsed and might lawfully vse in prayer, and Gods worship, a stinted and set forme, of words. And here [...]hey allege Num. 6 23.24. Deut 26.3.15. Psal. 22. & 92.1 Chro. 16.8.36. Luk. 11.2.

Very strange it is, that after so much time and consideration; Reply. men that professe to be ministers of the Gospell, should giue such an answer. The thing obiected against their worship made of the inuention of the man of sinne, was in the first answer to Mr Gifford (who shut his eyes, and would not see th' abominations of the same). Refut. p. 8. shewed in sundry particulars; as the Romish fasts; feasts and holy dayes, Comminations, Ro­gations, Purifications, &c. blasphemous & hereticall collects &c. which Refut. pag 29. &c. Discouer, p. 62. &c. after were more plainely refuted These and the like evils conteyned in their Leitourgie translated out of the Massebook, and imposed vpon their parishesr being by Mr Barrow blamed: now come these ministers and tel vs of Psalmes that Dauid made, of formes of blessing and prayer, that God and our Lord Christ prescribeth to his church; and these must countenance and bear our all the popish trash that is in their seruice booke.

But it would farr better haue fitted their estate and worship, Platima [...] vitis pootie Damasus 1 f if they had cited the Popes in sted of the Patriarches, Prophets and Apostles, who were altogether vnacquainted with this Rom [...]sh seruice. For howsoeuer Dauid made many Psalmes, yet not he but Pope Damasus (as wri­ters say) Blat. Vtalimus. 1. i ordeyned Glory be to the Father &c. to be added vnto them, and they to be sung by tournes, (as the church of Engl. yet vseth;) and Pope Vitalian Guil Du­rammus. to make vp the musick, brought in the Organs, Yea the foresayd Damasus Act. and monū. edi, 5 pag, 1184. inioyned Hierom to make an order of seruice for churches, and appoynt what prayers should be sayd on euery day, and how many Psalmes &c. which being done, the Pope commanded al churches should vse that order and none other And a much like exploit was performed by the Archbishop of Cant. and his brethren in K. Edwards days (as Mr Fox Guil Durandus Ifidorus. reporteth) for the seruice now vsed still in Engl. Agayne, for the particulars, who framed the Anthemes, Responds, Collects, Ioan. La­ziasdus, and Kyries, that are sayd at mattins? neyther Prophet nor Apostle, but as Platiua de vit. Marcus 1, some say pope Gregorie I. and Pope Gelasius. And the same Pope Gre­gory put k the Pater noster into the masse. and commanded it to be sung; and Pope Mar [...]us I would haue the Nicene Creed sung after; the Gospell. Pope Anacletus thought it fit the priest and people should salute one another [Page 138] another in seruice time, and therefore [...] appoynted the one to say. T [...] Lord hear [...]th [...], and the other to answer, And with thy spirit. Pope [...] [...] put i [...] at the Sacrament O lamb of God that takest away the sinns of the w [...]rl [...], [...] h [...]u [...] mercy on vs; Pope Symmachus [...]d added the hymme Glory be to G [...]d on high; and the other Popes b [...]ought in their parts, and patched to­gether the [...]r Letani [...], & Leitourgie out of which the English seruicebook is taken, Likewise for the fasting dayes and holy festiu [...]ties, though the Apostles appoynted them not, yet the Popes did: Telesohorus Pla [...]ina. Tel [...]sphorus & Celistus 1. woulde haue the Lent to be fasted; and Pope Calistus the fowr times in the year, or Imbring dayes. Pope Syluester 1. Bergomen sis. added the Wednesdayes, Frydaye [...] and Satur [...]ayes weekly; and Pope Innocen [...] 3. Lyb 3 decretal. Grego. put vnto the former al­most all the Apostles eues. The Saincts and Angels were also beholding to these Reuerend fathers for hallowing their dayes. For generally all the Saincts found such fauour with Pope Boniface, Volator, Platina. Bonif. 4. that they had not only a catholik holy day giuen them, called All-hallomes, but a famous Temple in Rome once ded [...]cated to all the D [...]uils and called Pantheon, was turned by this holy Father into the name of Maria rotunda. and consecrated to the hono [...]r of the B Virgin‘ and all martyrs Pope Felix 3, Fasci, tem mad holy the day of the archangel Michael, Lib Con Boniface the 8. Pap, suppl anno 1604 Reasō of religion, 13. shewed like honour to the 4, Euangelists, and many other memorable gests are recorded of the Fathers of the See of Rome, whereof there is not a word in the Testa­ment of Christ, that he or his disciples did euer the like. For they ap­poynted not priests apparall, long gownes, tippers 4. horned capps, as did Pope Zacharie; nor a white linen surplice at seruice time, as did Pope Syluester 1. They hallowed no Temples or Churches as did P. Hyginus, nor Churchyards, as did P. Calistus 1, Neyther ordeyned ringing of bells to call the people to diuine seruice, as did P. Sabinian. They ap­pointed no Rood-loft to part the Chancel from the church, as did P. B [...] niface 2, nor hallowed Font to Christen in; or Godfathers and Godmothers at baptisme, as did P, Pius 1. and Hyginus. They commanded not the people to goe procession as did Pope Agapetus 1. nor appoynted any Bish­oping or Confirmation of children, as did P, Clement. 1. with a great number more of like pranks vsed in the Romish seruice. which Christs Apostles knew not, as their writings shew. But the church of Engl. (as next heir of Romes constitutions,) reteyneth these reliques, obserueth these rites and a many moe; for which the Papists doe insult and say that from their treasure house, the religion now established hath learned the forme of christening, Marrying, Churching of women, Visiting the sick, Burying: and sun­dry other lik [...] as the books translated out of theirs, doe declare. And now what sayth Gods law for all such things vnto his people? I am (sayth he) Leu 18, 2 3, &c, the Lord your God. After the doing of the land of Aegypt wherein ye dwel, shall ye not doe: and after the doing of the land of Canaan whether I will bring you; shall ye not doe; neyther walke in their ordinances. My iudgments shall ye doe; and my ordinances shall ye keep, to walke in them: I am the Lord your God, [Page 139] Thus he forbad them not onely the worship of false Gods: but euen the imitation of idolatrous worship rites and ordinances in his seruice: wherfore he charged them againe, that they should not so much as inquire or Deut, 12, 30, 31, ask how the nations serued their Gods, that they might doe so to the Lord their God. But whatsoever he commanded them, vers. 32, they should make heed to doe it; putting nothing thereto, nor taking ought therfrom. Yet the Bishops and Priests of Engl. haue almost all things in their Lei­ [...]ourgie, according to the doings of that spiritual Reuelatiō 11, 8, Aegypt the Romish church wherein they dwelt, and haue imitated her worships‘ orders, ceremonies &c. reteyned her ministery, prelacy, courts, and canons: th [...] Latine being turned into English, and some grosse superfluities left ou [...]. And in defense of this worship, haue these godly ministers written, & Mr Bernard published their work: wherein if the reader see not a so [...]nd proof of the things that Mr Barrow (whose errors they pretend to confute) reproued; he must impute it to the badnes of their cause, which wil scars admit of any colour from the booke of God. For (besides the abuse of holy scriptures alleged to iustify these popish stratagems,) how sound & diuine, (or rather how fond and corrupt) is the reasoning of these men, from Gods example and authority, vnto their own practise and power that because the Lord God gaue formes of blessing, prayer and psalmes to his people, (as the scriptures which they cite doe shew) therefore their Lords the Prelates may giue them also prescript words for blessing, prayer, and Psalmes &c. as is to be seen in their seruice book. Can we thinke that Ieroboam had so slender a reason for his goldē calues? Why doe not these men also plead, that God gaue a law by Moses? therefore ther may a law be giuen likewise by the Bishops: or, th' Apostles wrote a new Testament, therefore the Conuocation house may also write a Testa­ment or Gospel; & bring it into the church? If the Prophets practise will bear them ovt in the one: I see no cause why it may not vphold them in the other. Wel, seing neyther Mr Gifford heretofore, nor these ministers now, can bring better defense for the work of their own hands where­with they worship or rather prouoke the Lords I leaue them to consi­der of those lawes that euery where cry Deu 5, 8, 9, 32, 33 & 6 14, 15, 25 & 7, 25 26, & 12, 2 3.30 &c Isa 1.12.13 & 29, 13.14. Ier, 1, 16. Reu. 17.2. & 18.3, 11 12, 20, ovt against and shew the pu­nishment of idolatrie. Neyther is it needfull to keep the Reader with longer answer, seing Mr Barrow in the fornamed books, and Mr Greenwood in a peculiar treatise against these stinted prayers, and se [...] worship haue proued the vnlawfulnes of them by many reasons, which neyther these ministers nor any other haue yet taken away. And when they write agayn, let them not bring proofs for things that we deney not; as that Daunds Psalmes may be sung in the church; and that in our prayers we may vse or apply, the words that other holy men before vsed in their prayers, vpon like occasions; both these we grant and practise: but let them proue, (if they be able and their right hand can help them, that their own writetnn prayers, psalmes &c. may be read and sung in churches, [Page 140] church [...], as Gods true worship and then also they may command the clowdes to rayn no more, and may cause to cease the bottels of heauen.

Like to their former plea, and maintenance of their seruice booke, is also their answer for Catechismes; as for Homilies it seemes they leaue the the defense of them to the simple priests that read them, but Catechismes are vsed euen by the learned preachers, therefore somewhat they say for them, as pag. 196. that the principles of religion were taught in the churches of old, Rō 2.20, & 6 17.2 Tim, 1 13, Heb. 5.12.13, 14 and 6, 1.2. But these mini­sters are eyther simple or very deceitfull, so to turne away from the question For we neuer deneyed that the grounds and heads of Christian religion should be taught to the people; far be it from vs: but this we say, the Prophets and Apostles are not found to prescribe set words for the minister to teach, or the people to answer being examined. And that therefore these Bishops and Priests are very presumptuous, that wil take vpon them to doe that which Christs Apostles neuer did in the churches. Agayn, that if those men of God had to done; yet seing the writings of Prophets and Apostles are canonicall scriptures, and so are no mens wri­tings now: it will by no meanes follow, that if they wrote catechismes to be vsed in the Church, therefore men may writ some for like vse now. Yea rather why are they not content with that which is already written in the scriptures, but run to erroneous catechismes of humane writers, such as is that authorized catechisme in the book of common pray­er, commanded to be vsed in the church of England?

Hauing heard what these godly ministers say for their people, and ser­uice book; I exspected somewhat also, for defense of their own minister, and the ecclesiasticall gouernment of their Lords the Prelates; which were the other two [...]eads of error excepted against, in the forenamed books. But in both these they are silent; and reason there may be for it: for the inferior ministery hangs vpon the superior, the hierarchie, and now the godly ministers are in a great strayt, for eyther they must loose their ministery, and then what boots it to plead for the same, or els they must, (though they be loth) be buxome and submit to their Fathers the Bi­shops; and when this is done, it may be we shall see some such defense of two later, as we haue already of the former. Mr Bernard himself hath begun fayrly; for whereas a while since he was hot against the Bishops. he now cannot endure they should be pag. 71, called Antichristian proud prelates or the like; and thinks pag, 142. it can neuer be proued, that the entrance into the ministery by the Prelates, is a false entrance. So it is not to be thought but his Ordinary and he will agree wel yenough. Wel howsoeuer it be, God (I doubt not) wil turne all things to his own glory and furtherance of his truth; yea euen the writings of these aduersaries, shalbe a meanes to stir men up vnto a consideration of their wayes, which God giue them grace for to doe, and to turne their feet into the pathes of life and peace that they may finde rest vnto their sowles.