• Lord Norreys.
• Lord Chief Justice North.
• Mr. Justice Jones.
• Mr. Justice Raymond.
• Mr. Justice Levyns.

GEntlemen, You that are returned of the Grand Inqust, there has been a Sessions so lately, that in all probability there will be no great matter to trouble you with at this time. And so I shall not trouble my self nor you to give you any Charge, because we know of no business yet that we shall need you for. The Court hath recorded your Appearance. You will do well to be in the way, either in the Town, or hereabout the Court, that you may be ready if any thing should happen. 'Tis necessary for us to have your attendance; but we know not of any thing that we have in particular to trouble you with. We have an Indictment before us, let us proceed upon that.

Gaoler, have you your Prisoner?

We will fetch him presently.

Stephen Colledge, Hold up thy Hand. (Which he did.)

Thou art here Indicted by the name of Stephen Colledge, late of Oxford, in the County of Oxford, Carpenter; For that thou as a false Traytor against the most Il­lustrious, most Serene, and most Excellent Prince, our Sovereign Lord Charles the Second, by the Grace of God, of England, Scotland, France and Ireland King, Defender of the Faith, &c. thy Supreme and Natural Lord, the Fear of God in thy heart not having, nor weighing the Duty of thy Allegiance, but being moved and seduced by the Instigation of the Devil, the cordial Love, and true, due, and natural obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Sovereign Lord the King, towards him our said Sovereign Lord the King, should and of right ought to bear, wholly withdrawing and machinating, and with all thy strength intending the Peace and common tranquillity of our said Sovereign Lord the King of this Kingdom of England to disturb, and Sedition and Rebellion, and War against our Sovereign Lord the King, within this Kingdom of England to move, stir up and pro­cure; and the cordial Love, and true and due Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Sovereign Lord the King, towards him our said Sovereign Lord the King should, and of right ought to bear, wholly to withdraw, put out and extinguish, and him our said Sovereign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring, and put, the tenth day of March, in the Three and Thirtieth year of the Reign of our Sovereign Lord Charles the Second, by the Grace of God, of England, Scotland, France and Ireland King, Defender of the Faith, &c. at Oxford, in the County of Oxford, Falsly, Malici­ously, Subtilly and Traiterously, did Purpose, Compass, Imagine and Intend Sedition and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England, to move, stir up, and procure, and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Sovereign Lord the King to procure and cause, and our said Sovereign Lord the King from his Regal State, Title, Power and Government of his Kingdom of England, to deprive, depose, cast down and disinherit; and him our said Sovereign Lord the King to Death and final De­struction to bring and put, and the Government of the said Kingdom at thy will and pleasure to change and alter, and the State of all this Kingdom of England, in all its parts well Instituted and Ordained, wholly to Subvert and Destroy, and War against our said Sovereign Lord the King, within this Kingdom of England to levy; and thy said most Wicked Treasons, and Trayterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid to fulfil and perfect, thou the said Stephen Colledge the said tenth day of March, in the Three and Thirtieth year of the Reign of our said Sovereign Lord the King with force and Arms, &c. at Oxford aforesaid, in the County of Oxford aforesaid, Falsly, Mali­ciously, Subtilly, Advisedly, Devilishly and Trayterously did prepare Arms and Warlike offensive Habiliments to wage War against our said Sovereign Lord the King. And thy self in warlike manner for the purposes aforesaid, then and there Falsly, Maliciously, Sub­tilly, Advisedly, Devilishly and Traiterously didst Arm, and one Edward Turbervill, and other Subjects of our said Sovereign Lord the King, to Arm themselves; to perfect thy [Page 3] Traiterous purposes aforesaid, then and there Advisedly, Maliciously and Trayterously didst incite and advise. And further, then and there Falsly, Maliciously, Subtilly, Ad­visedly, Devilishly and Trayterously didst say and declare, That it was purposed and de­signed to seize the Person of our said Sovereign Lord the King at Oxford aforesaid, in the County of Oxford aforesaid. And that thou the said Stephen Colledge in prosecution of thy trayterous purpose aforesaid, wouldst be one of them who should seize our said Sove­reign Lord the King at Oxford aforesaid, in the County aforesaid. And that thou the said Stephen Colledge thy said most wicked Treasons and trayterous Imaginations, Compas­sings and Purposes aforesaid the sooner to fulfil and perfect, and discords between our said Sovereign Lord the King and his People to move, cause and procure, then and divers times and days as well before as after at Oxford aforesaid, in the County of Oxford aforesaid, in the presence and hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our said Sovereign Lord the King, then and there being present, Falsly, Maliciously, Subtilly, Advisedly, Devilishly and Traite­rously didst say and declare, That nothing of good was to be expected from our said Sove­reign Lord the King; and that our said Sovereign Lord the King did mind nothing but Beastliness, and the destruction of his People: And that our said Sovereign Lord the King did endeavour to establish Arbitrary Government and Popery against the Duty of thy Alle­giance, against the Peace of our Sovereign Lord the King, his Crown and Dignity, and against the Form of the Statutes in this Case made and provided.

How sayest thou, Stephen Colledge, Art thou Guilty of this High-Treason whereof thou standest Indicted, and hast been now Arraigned, or not Guilty?

My Lord, I do desire, if it please your Lordship, to be heard a few words.

Look you, Mr. Colledge, the matter that hath been here read unto you is a plain matter, and it hath been read to you in English, that you may understand it. 'Tis an Indictment of High Treason; now you must know, that no Plea can be re­ceived to it, but either Guilty or not Guilty as to the Fact; if you can assign any mat­ter in Law, do it.

Will you please to spare me, that I may be heard a few words. I have been kept close Prisoner in the Tower ever since I was taken: I was all along unacquainted with what was charged upon me. I knew not what was sworn against me, nor the persons that did swear it against me, and therefore I am wholly ignorant of the matter. I do humbly desire I may have a Copy of the Indictment, and a Copy of the Jury that is to pass upon me, and that I may have Council assigned me, to advise me, whether I have not something in Law pleadable in Bar of this Indictment.

These are the things you ask, You would have a Copy of the Indict­ment, you would have Council assigned to you, to advise you in matter of Law, and a Copy of the Jury.

One word more, my Lord, I desire to know upon what Statute I am In­dicted.

I will tell you for that, Is it not contra formam Statut. with an abbre­viation? Cl. of Cr. Yes.

That refers to all manner of Statutes that have any relation to the [Page 4] thing in the Indictment that is High-Treason. For it may be meant contra formam Statut. which are all the several Statutes that are in force concerning High-Treason. Now for those things that you demand, you cannot have them by Law. No man can have a Copy of the Indictment by Law; for Councel, you cannot have it, unless mat­ter of Law arises, and that must be propounded by you; and then if it be a matter de­batable, the Court will assign you Councel, but it must be upon a matter fit to be ar­gued: for I must tell you, a defence in Case of High-Treason ought not to be made by Artificial Cavils, but by plain Fact. If you purpose any matter of Law, the Court will consider of it, and assign you Councel, if it be reasonable. For a copy of the Jury, that you can't have neither, for there is no such thing as yet; there is no Issue joyned whereupon such a Jury should be impannelled. When you have pleaded to Issue, then we must award the Sheriff to impannel a Jury to try that Issue. So as to what you say as to want of preparation for your Tryal, we cannot enquire what notice you have had; and yet if you had never so little time, there is no cause why you should not plead, though you were but just now taken and brought to the Bar to answer it, and never heard of any thing of it before. So that I think you ought to plead presently.

My Lord, I am wholly ignorant of the Law, I may ruine my self by mista­king the Law; I desire Councel, not to delay my Tryal, but only to advise me whether there is not something in Law proper for me to plead to this Indictment, and those things I alledged were not at all to delay the Tryal, but only that I may not be wanting to my self in what I may by Law have.

I tell you, Councel cannot be assigned you till the Court be possessed of some matter to grant it upon.

I had some Papers, my Lord, that were taken from me, which I desire may be restored to me. I only plead that I may have my Birth-right, and that which the Law gives me; If I may have Justice, I desire no more. These Papers were taken from me in the House over the way since I was brought from the Prison; they were Pa­pers that concerned my defence; some directions and instructions how to manage my self in that defence. If you please to let me have those Papers, I will not take up much of your time; I desire to have but common Justice, and that which is my right by Law.

That which you demand, Justice, you shall have by the Grace of God to the best of our skill, without any partiality in the World. But you must trust the Publick Justice of the Kingdom. We are to be of Councel for you, so far as to see that all things proceed fairly on all sides. And when things come before us that are fit for you to have Councel upon, you shall have Councel assigned you; for we are ten­der of the life of a Man, as well as of the life of the King, and of the publick Justice of the Kingdom. But this is no reason why you should not now plead. For the Pa­pers you speak of, we will take an examination of them afterwards: If they were Pa­pers that are necessary for your defence upon your Tryal, in God's Name you must have them restored to you; but we know not which way you came by them, nor what they are.

They were taken from me just now, under the pretence of bringing them to your Lordship.

How comes any body to give you Papers? Nobody can solicit for any one that is under an Accusation of High-Treason, unless he be assigned so to do by the Court.

God have mercy upon any man that is so accused then; for 'tis not possible for him to make his Defence, if he cannot be at liberty to look after it himself, nor any of his Friends permitted to do it for him.

You can say whether you are Guilty or not Guilty without any Papers.

My Lord, I know not but there may be something in Law for me to plead to this Indictment, which I shall lose the benefit of if I plead. I humbly conceive you are to be my Councel, and as you are Judges, are to proceed according to the Law. You are upon your Oaths to do me right according to the Law.

But till you have proposed a matter of Law fit for Councel to ar­gue, there is no Councel to be assigned you.

If I had those Papers, I could tell what I should plead. My Lord, this is one thing, I am a Free-man of London, and I am not impleadable by the Charter of Lon­don, any where out of the Liberties of the City in Pleas of the Crown.

You are indicted in Oxfordshire for High-Treason committed here. If there be not any thing of High-Treason proved, done in Oxfordshire, you will be ac­quitted. But a Free-man of London cannot have a priviledge to commit Treason in Oxfordshire, but must be Tryed for it there.

Will you please to order me my Papers back that were taken from me?

You ought first to plead. You have a right to demand Councel in matters of Law, but then it must be upon such matters of Law as you your self pro­pose to the Court, and the Court shall judge to be matters of Law fit to be debated: Till then we cannot assign you Councel.

It was so in the Tryal of Lilburne, and in the Tryal of my Lord Stafford, there was Councel assigned to them.

Not before they pleaded to the Indictment.

Did not your Lordships, some of you that are Judges of the Kings-Bench, say, that it was the right of the Prisoner to have a Copy of the Pannel, and of the Jury, before the Tryal?

No sure: Here are two of us that are of the Court, and we never heard of any such thing.

Pray, my Lord, do me right, I am ignorant of the Law, and through my ignorance may mistake.

God forbid we should not do you right; you may expect it from us; we are upon our Oaths to do all the Kings Subjects right.

I am ignorant in the Law, and 'tis impossible for me to make my defence without the assistance of my Papers.

Cannot you tell whether you be Guilty or not Guilty of this Trea­son?

I can so, but I know not what error I may run my self into, if I should plead presently, and lose the benefit that the Law may give me.

All matters of Law are saved to you after you have pleaded.

Pray, my Lord, let me have my Papers again that were taken from me.

You must plead to the Court, Guilty or not Guilty.

Shall I not have my Papers after I have pleaded?

We will not capitulate with you. Move what you will then, but till you have pleaded, we can enter into no other business.

I know not but I might plead some other thing to the Indictment.

Propose what you will, if it be a matter in Law fit to be argued, you shall have Councel assigned you.

Pray, my Lord, let me have my Papers again. If it were not my right to have them, or to have Councel, I would not ask it; but if it be, I would not lose what is my right.

You must plead first. I know not but he may be criminal that brought you those Papers: for we allow no Sollicitors in cases of Treason.

Some of those Papers were received from me in the Tower, and were brought back to me, and taken away but to day, I desire they may be returned.

Are you Guilty or not Guilty?

Those Papers tell me I have a Plea in Law, but what it is, I cannot di­rectly tell without my Papers.

You must mention it, and propose it, and then we will do what is fit­ting for us to do in it.

I have not that method about me, nor can I directly tell it without my Pa­pers; but 'tis something of Law about the Indictment.

You are not bound up to forms of Law. For if you propose the matter never so loosely, yet if it be a matter of avail, and that which the Law is not clearly a­gainst you in, you shall have Councel, and time to draw it up in form.

I cannot propose the matter so regularly as if I had my Papers.

You are not bound to propose it in formality of Law, my Lord tells you, only let us know what it is.

I have a priviledge in Law, I hope you will give me the benefit of it.

We will deny you nothing that the Law gives you; but we cannot give you councel. It is not one particular case, but the common course of Justice is concerned. Without a matter of Law arises, we cannot assign you Counsel; if we would, we cannot in Justice till you have proposed the matter which the Court thinks fit to be argued.

My Lord Coke says, It is the Birth-right of every English-man to have Councel in matters of Law, and Lilburne had it upon solemn Argument in his Tryal.

What times were those? That was before the High Court of Justice.

If there be matter in Law, it must be proposed to the Court, and they are to judge whether it be a Point fit to be argued, and then Councel is to be as­signed you, and not till then.

My Lord, I know not but there may be somewhat in Law for me to plead to this Indictment, till I have my Papers I can't tell what it is.

We know nothing of your Papers what they are, you must answer whether you be Guilty or not Guilty.

If I had my Papers, I would answer to it immediately; but I hope I shall not be murdered.

Have a care of aspersing the Court. Pray who intends to murder you?

I remember in Lilburn's Tryal that he speaks of, such words were used indeed.

My Lord, I hope I shall not be deny'd what is necessary for my defence. This design is not only against me, but against all the Protestants.

How long have you been a Protestant, Mr. Colledge?

Ever since I knew what Religion was, Sir, I never was any thing else. For Gods sake, my Lord, let me have the justice of the Nation, and what by Law an English-man ought to have.

You must plead Guilty or not Guilty, or you must shew some matter that you will plead, that is proper for us to assign you Councel. If we should record your refusal, you would be judged to stand Mute, and Sentence would pass upon you.

If I have a priviledge in Law as an English-man, I will not forfeit it, if I can help it, for any thing in the world. Therefore I desire I may have my Papers again, that I may see if I can plead any thing in Law; for if I have a priviledge by the Law, before I will forfeit it, you shall do what you please with me.

You'll have the advantage of all that matter that is in your Papers after you have pleaded, if there be any advantage.

Pray, my Lord, order me my Papers that were taken away from me.

They were not taken away by me.

They were taken away by the Keeper, under pretence to bring them to your Lordship.

I know not how you came by them. There came one to me last night that is a common Sollicitor, one Aaron Swith, and desired he might have liberty to go and speak with the Prisoner. I told him, I did not understand till he were assigned by the Court, that any could justifie Solliciting for a man that is accused of High Treason nor could any be of Councel till they were assigned: for a defence against Treason ought to be by plain matters of Proof and Fact, and not by artificial Cavils. But if you will propose any thing of substance, as a matter in Law which the Court shall think fit to be argued, propose it, and then we will assign you Councel.

Is it not my right that I ought to have a copy of the jury?

Look you for that now, you cited the Opinion of the Judges of the [Page 8] Kings-Bench. My Brothers, two of them that are here, who are Judges in that Court, say, they know nothing of any such matter: But I must tell you, you have li­berty by Law to challenge 35. by your sight premptorily, without shewing cause. They are bound to look upon you when they come to be sworn, and if you have any just cause, you may except against as many more as as you will. But now we that proceed upon a Commission of Gaol-delivery, are to proceed with expedition; there are no particular men designed for a Jury that I know of. But when you have pleaded, we shall award the Sheriff to impannel a Jury.

If the Law allow me the liberty of challenging, it does intend it me that I may challenge those persons that I think will do me no justice; but where they are stran­gers unto me, if I can have no information about any of them by my own enquiry, or my friends, I may challenge my friends as well as my foes: and should there be any person that has a prejudice against me, and I not know it, he may chance to be one.

I hope they will be neither friends nor foes, but true men.

I know not that, my Lord.

This that you say as to a copy of the Jury, is unseasonable. There is no Jury, nor can be awarded till you have pleaded. There must be first Issue joyned, and that cannot be but upon your Plea of not Guilty. Therefore you must plead first, and then say all you will.

Are you Guilty or not Guilty?

My Lord, may not I have a pannel of the Jury?

There is no such thing in being.

I know not what to say to it; pray, my Lord, let me have my papers.

You have heard the opinion of the Court, you must first plead.

I cannot plead first, I must lose my life if I must; I neither know who accuses me, nor what it is they accuse me of: 'tis impossible I should defend my self if I have not my papers.

We know not what papers you mean.

The Gaoler took them from me, and one of the Kings Messengers. Pray, my Lord, will you order them to be returned to me again: Let me but see whether I have any right or no, and whether I have any thing to plead or no: When I have perused my pa­pers, I will propose it as well as I can to you. Pray, my Lord, let me have a fair Tryal.

We promised you a fair Tryal, but you must put your self upon that Tryal by your pleading.

I cannot do that without my papers, my Lord. Let me but have them again, and I will not delay your time at all.

You can tell whether you are Guilty or not Guilty, can't you?

If I have a Plea in law against the Indictment, I hope you will not hinder me of that which is my right. It is possible the Indictment does not lay it right, either as to the matter of Treason, or as to the place.

That is upon the Issue of not Guilty upon your Tryal. If there be not matter of Fact, or words proved that are Treason in this place, you will have the advantage of it upon your Tryal.

I know not, my Lord, but that the Indictment does mention something of Trea­son, and something of Misdemeanour.

That which is Misdemeanour, won't amount to a proof of the Trea­son upon the Tryal.

If they prove no Treason against you here, but only Misdemeanour, I do not understand that the Jury can find you guilty of that Misdemeanour; for 'tis another crime, and there is another sort of proceedings for it. In Misdemeanour there are no peremptory Challenges; in Misdemeanour Councel is to be allowed for the Prisoner, but not in Treason.

Pray, my Lord, be pleased to order me my papers again: I know not what to say without I have the assistance of my papers: when I have them, I shall be ready to plead presently, according as I shall find I may by law. This I am sure, I have done nothing, nor said nothing of Treason, and I pray for nothing but Justice, and that which is my right. This is a most horrid conspiracy to take away my life; and it will not stop here, for it is a­gainst all the Protestants in England.

Mr. Colledge, you do not only trifle, but run out into very great extravagancies. Who has any conspiracy against your life? you shall be allowed to give in Evidence any thing of any conspiracy against you, or contrivance against you when you are upon your Tryal. Now the Question is, Are you Guilty or not Guilty? I see no use of papers that you can have as to the Plea.

You will run into danger by spending of time.

Pray my Lord, order me my papers, they are in the hands of Mr. Murrell the Gaoler, and Sewell the Kings Messenger.

When you have pleaded we will take it into consideration.

My Lord, it may be too late then.

'Tis a plain matter before you, whether you be Guilty or no. You know what to answer.

I will give a direct answer, after I have my papers again.

You can give an answer to that without papers.

Consult with your own heart, and there you may receive an answer to that Question.

Mr. Colledge; can any body tell whether you be guilty or no, bet­ter then your self?

If you expect any papers, they ought to be framed by your self; for by Law none can advise you what to plead.

I don't expect it in matter of Fact, but if matter of Law arise.

But this is a matter of Fact, and therefore you may plead Not guil­ty, as well without your papers, as if you had them.

But if there be any matter of Law, that I ought to have the advantage of.

Then you ought to have no advice, till they be assigned by the Court: for by the Law, neither counsel nor advice are allowable to you, till the mat­ter has been proposed, and the Court think fit to assign you counsel.

You talk of the Priviledge of an English man; you have all the [Page 10] priviledges of an English-man: You are here brought to an open Tryal, according to the Law, and by that Law you must Plead. Now if a man be Indicted for High-Treason, he is bound to plead either Guilty or not Guilty, unless he has a matter in Law to excuse him from that Plea, which must be proposed to the Court, and then Counsel will be assigned, and if so be matter of Law arises upon any evidence that is given against you at the Tryal, you may demurr upon that Evidence, and pray Counsel of the Court to argue that demurrer, and they will not deny you: but I think you must plead presently.

I suppose other persons that have been tried, have had Councel before they have pleaded.

But never before the Matter was proposed to the Court.

It was so in the case of my Lord Stafford. The Court made him propose his matters in Law, and so it was in Lilburn's case. He did insist upon a great many matters in Law, and had the Books there himself.

I am wholly ignorant of the Law, my Lord.

Your Lordships are the Judges of Law in this case. The Question here in short is, whether the Prisoner be Guilty or not Guilty, and that being de­manded of him by the Court, if he refuses, let him take the consequence of it.

What is that pray, Sir George?

Judgment of High-Treason. For if a person stand mute, and will not plead to an Indictment of High-Treason, the common Judgment of Pressing to Death must not pass upon him, but an Attainder of High-Treason.

Well, if it be so, I cannot help it. I thank God I am innocent of any Treason, or any such thing.

Why don't you plead not Guilty then?

I do not refuse to plead, I am willing to plead with all my Heart, if I may have my right.

If you do not plead, you do refuse to plead.

Pray, my Lord, let me have my Papers.

Pray give the Court an Account where you had those Papers.

Nay, we will not enter into any examination of that matter now, Mr. At­torney; he can have no use of Papers to see whether he should plead Guilty or not Guilty.

We know nothing of those Papers, we desire he may answer to the Question shortly, whether he be Guilty or not Guilty; if not, we pray your Lord­ships judgment.

I had them not all from one person, they were received from my own hands some of them in the Tower, and being brought back to me, they were taken from me to day, let me have but one of them: the Paper of instructions in point of Law, that I may know what is my right, I would not throw away my life, if I have any thing that is my right that can preserve it.

You are to give a plain Answer, whether you are Guilty or not Guilty? [Page 11] now for that you have no use of Papers: For you can best tell whether you be Guilty or not. If you can propose any matter of Law that you can have to plead, do it.

If I have any Plea that I may plead besides not Guilty, I desire I may have my Papers to consider of it, and that I may have Councel assigned me.

If you have any such Plea, tell us the matter, and the subststance of it.

I do not know what really are matters of Law, if I had those instructions that are in my Papers, I could give you a direct Answer presently.

You ought not to have any advice to decline your Tryal: When you pro­pose matter of Law your self, you may have advice upon it. But you ought not to have advice to decline your Tryal before-hand.

Are you Guilty, or not Guilty?

Mr. Attorney, pray let me have a copy of the Indictment.

Apply your self to the Court for it, we must receive our directions from thence.

You have had the opinion of the Court, you can't have it.

You have been told nothing can be received from you but a Plea of Guilty or not Guilty, and the Court have given you their opinion, and that you can­not have a copy of the Indictment, nor Councel assigned you, till you offer something for them to be assigned upon.

And that was it which was done in the King's-Bench in the case of Fitz-Harris, which I suppose you meant when you spake of the Judges Opinions.

Nothing was done there till he himself assigned the matter in Law that he would plead, and then Councel was assigned him.

Mr. Colledge was in the Court at that time, and can tell what was done.

If you desire the Indictment read over again distinctly, that you may have.

Ay, with all my heart.

Pray let me hear it again, my Lord, if you please.

Read it over again to him, and read it distinctly.

Thou art Indicted by the name of Stephen Colledge late of Oxon. in the County of Oxon. Carpenter, as a false Traytor.

I have observed one thing already, my Lord, I pray I may have Pen and Ink.

Ay, give him Pen and Ink, let him make what observations he can.

Art thou Guilty of this High-Treason, or not Guilty?

This Indictment, if I understand it, says, there was a Plot and conspiracy by me and others; now I know when my Lord Stafford was tryed, they did proceed to prove first, that there was such a Plot, and then that my Lord was guilty of it; first, that there was such a conspiracy by the Papists, is it not requisite they should first prove such a Plot and conspiracy there was, before they go to prove me guilty of it?

What, before you have pleaded?

When you have pleaded, the next thing is to try you, and to give the Evi­dence, [Page 12] but what way the King's Councel will take to manage your Tryal, that we can't tell.

But they are not to be directed by you, Mr. Colledge.

It was so done in my Lord Stafford's case.

He pleaded first however, you have not yet pleaded.

Are you Guilty or not Guilty?

Do not trifle any longer, 'tis a plain matter, and requires a very short and plain answer.

Your Lordships are my Councel as well as my Judges, and I do desire if I have any right to plead any other matter, you will be pleased to declare it to me, for I am ignorant in the Law.

We have declared our opinion already, that you have no right to have any Solicitor or Councel till matter of Law do arise.

Is it your Lordships opinion that I have no Plea in Law?

Have you no Plea in Law?

He would have our judgment whether there be any or no.

You your self know best, we know nothing you have to plead.

I cannot unless I have counsel, and my papers.

There does nothing appear to us.

I know nothing of the Law.

Then plead not Guilty, that is a ready Plea.

You have heard our opinion over and over again. You have as much counsel as is allowed in these cases, for every man is best judge of his own case, what to plead, whether Guilty or not Guilty: You have had as fair play as ever any man had.

Mr. Colledge has said he knows of no Plea in Law he has, and there­fore there is none; for de non apparentibus, & non existentibus, the reason is the same.

In matter of Fact there is no Plea but not Guilty.

The Court are Judges in matter of law, and they are my counsel.

And the Court have all of them declared they know of nothing in Law that you have to plead.

Is not counsel to be allowed to one under my circumstances?

If you have any thing for Councel to be assigned upon, you shall have them.

If I am ignorant of that, and cannot propose it, shall I not have the assistance of councel?

No, we have told you the Law plainly, and that which is frequent in practice in like cases, and you must be contented with the same measure.

My Lord, I am ignorant of the law.

Then rely upon the Fact, and plead not Guilty.

But if I have a right to any point in law, let me have it.

You have a right if you will propose any matter of Law, but we can­not propose it for you.

Mr. Colledge, no man ought to propose your Plea for you, Ignorun­tia juris non excusat.

Shall my ignorance destroy me, Mr. Attorney?

You have heard the opinion of the Court, you have a right to pro­pose any other Plea that you can your self, but you have no right to ask counsel before you have pleaded.

If Mr. Colledge have such a thing as a Solicitor, I shall crave leave to put that Solicitor in mind of the case of one that was indicted of High-Treason, for soliciting for one that was accused of High-Treason.

We shall talk of that by and by.

The same methods are used in your case, as are in all cases of the like nature, as far as my knowledge reacheth.

If I have a right to the Law, I must not lose it for my own ignorance of the law; but if you deny me both my counsel and my papers, you take away the means of my coming to that right, and make me uncapable of making my Defence.

You have been told you must plead before you do any thing.

This is the person, (pointing to a person by him) that had the papers. Be pleased to command him that I may have them again: He said he had order to take them from me, and bring them to your Lordship.

I know of no use you could have of any papers to plead Guilty or not Guilty.

If there be in those papers advice in matters of Law, that you have been told you ought not to have, till the Court has assigned you councel to give you advice.

Then if there be a right in law, and a priviledge which I ought to have, I must lose it by my being ignorant of it, and have no one to advise me about it nei­ther.

You may propose it, if you have any, if not you must plead to the Indict­ment.

My Lord, it has not been usual for us that are of the Kings counsel, to enter into Dialogues with Prisoners at the Bar. The first thing that is to be done in such cases, is for the Prisoner to Plead Guilty, or not Guilty or to offer something to the Court that may be a matter in Law fit to be debated▪ and this we pray may be done in this case, and that the Prisoner may plead presently, or else we desire your Judgment.

Pray let me have my papers again, my Lord.

You go in a circle, and run round from one thing to another, and will receive no answer. We have told you our opinion, and we must tell you, that though you hold long Discourses, yet you will be judged lost and [...] if you plead not a legal Plea. Therefore you must plead Guilty, or not Guilty, or offer something that may be a Plea in Law, and then you shall have the assistance of councel, but you must have none till then.

But shall I not have my papers my Lord?

We know nothing of them.

Pray my Lord order the man to give them to me, that took them from me.

We will order no such thing. He may be a criminal perhaps that did give them you at first, but when you have pleaded we will hear any motion you will make about them.

It may be I ought to plead that the words were spoke in another place, then the place lay'd in the Indictment.

You will not need to plead any such thing, for if there be nothing proved of Treason that you said or did in Oxford-shire you must be found Not guilty.

Here is another thing, my Lord, I am indicted by the name of Colledge Car­penter.

What then?

I am not a carpenter but a joyner, is that any bar to it?

The addition signifies nothing, I do not know any difference betwixt a car­penter and a joyner in Law.

They might have indicted you by the name of Labourer and it had been good.

Pray my Lord either give me my papers or assign me counsel, or else I may throw away my life, for I am wholly ignorant of the Law.

When you have pleaded we will hear any Motion you will make, and do that which is just upon it: but I see no use you can have of papers to plead Guilty or Not guilty, which is the only question is asked you.

Are you Guilty, or Not guilty?

Will you promise me my Lord, there shall no advantage be taken against me, if I do plead so?

We will make no bargains with you. Plead as you ought by Law to do.

If matters of Law arise, shall I have Counsel to speak to them?

Yes you shall, you need not doubt it. Propose any matter now fit to be argued, and you shall have counsel to it.

I am not capable of doing it. I know not when I have any right.

The Court is of councel to you.

If you are my counsel, then have I any Plea in law to make?

You have heard the Indictment read, what say you? for you must propose the matter.

We know of none but Guilty, or Not Guilty, if you can tell of any do.

I pray I may have my papers again; if there be no other Plea for me, pray let me have my papers again.

You have heard the Opinion of the Court, you must plead.

Certainly Mr. Colledge, you can't be Guilty of these things, you need not scruple it, to plead Not guilty sure.

My Lord, having been kept a Prisoner, as I have been, without pen, ink or paper, no conversation with my Friends, no knowledge of the Fact, and being igno­rant [Page 15] of the Law, not knowing where I have a right, nor when I have a right; if you do force me upon this Plea, and it cost me my life, at your doors lye it.

You will lose your life if you do not plead; if you plead not Guil­ty, and are not proved Guilty, you will save your life by this Plea.

I am willing to plead what the Law requires of me to plead, and if I have a right in Law, I would not lose it.

Are you Guilty, or not Guilty?

Why then, as they have laid it in that Indictment, in manner and form as 'tis there laid, I am not Guilty.

Culprit, by whom wilt thou be tryed?

By God and my Countrey.

God send thee a good deliverance.

Got Guilty is his Plea.

Now he has pleaded, Mr. Attorney, he speaks of some papers, if there be any Memorandums or any thing that must assist him, that is necessary for his defence in his Tryal in those Papers, it will be hard to deny him them.

If your Lordships please to give me leave▪ I will give you an account of them. The Messenger just now did deliver these papers to be delivered to the Court.

Pray speak out, Mr. Attorney, and let me hear.

When he came to Prison he had none, but Mr. Aaron Smith, the Messenger informed me, did deliver them to him.

Whose hand-writing are the papers in?

He received them from me in the Tower.

You received them from him first.

No.

What were the papers you delivered to him in the Tower?

The three pieces joyned together that contains directions how to govern my self, there is another of the same purpose which instructs me to demand a copy of the In­dictment, and of the pannel of the Jury, and those were instructions to tell me what the Law allows me.

Here is a Speech made for you that begins thus. Before you plead, speak to this purpose. Pray, my Lord, I desire that may be examined, and Mr. Smith may be called to give an account how he came to give the Prisoner those papers; for here are abundance of niceties proposed for him to move, and there will be a strange sort of proceedings at this rate, if men go about to espouse the cause of Traytors.

I am no Traytor, Mr. Attorney.

You stand indicted of High-Treason.

That is by a Grand Jury made up that morning, as I am informed.

Here is a list of the names of several men of the Countrey returned to be of the Jury, and particular marks set upon them, who are good men, and who bad men, and who moderate men.

Ought I not to have that paper, my Lord?

No I hope not.

Whether they are material or not material, if we should judge them not material for his defence, yet it will look like an hard point upon the Prisoner, and to deliver them into an hand that they may be carried away or stifled, in case there were a crime in the delivering of them that would not do well on the other side: therefore I would have these papers put into some safe hands, that what may be for the Prisoners use he may not want, and yet they may not be taken away, if there be occasion to use them upon another account.

But if it please your Lordship, I desire you would enter into Exa­mination of this matter; for I have an account from London by a special Messenger that there are several persons that go up and down to procure Witnesses against the Kings Evidence, making it a publick Cause; and here my Lord, another paper which is a List of men as Witnesses picked up together against the Kings Witnesses.

He must have that, deliver him that presently.

But my Lord, others have gone about and framed Witnesses for him.

You must give him a list of his Witnesses, for I see not what use you can make of it.

This no man will oppose sure, if any thing that is delivered to him be fit to be delivered, the person that delivers it must come and own it; but before any person delivers any papers to the Prisoner, for him to make use of against the Kings Evidence, we desire to know what those papers mean, and who gave them.

Look you Brother, we will have nothing of heat till the Tryal be o­ver, when that is over if there be any thing that requires our Examination it will be proper for us to enter into the consideration of it. But in the mean while what hurt is there, if the papers be put into some trusty hands, that the Prisoner may make the best use of them he can, and yet they remain ready to be produced upon occasion, if a man be speaking for his Life, though he speak that which is not material, or nothing to the purpose, that will be no harm to permit that.

With submission my Lord, that is assigning him Counsel with a Witness.

If people are permitted to go up and down and ask counsel of per­sons and bring it in papers to the Prisoner, 'tis the same thing as if Counsel came to him. Here is a busie Solicitor and he gets advice from Councel and then he delivers it to the Prisoner, 'tis the first of the kind certainly that ever was allowed; and if this be not to assign him Counsel, I know not what is.

What think you of our perusing the papers?

With all my heart my Lord.

If you take away all helps from me, you had as good condemn me without a Tryal.

You ought not to have helps to plead dilatories.

Not to help me to my right in Law?

We are to go upon the Fact now: And, my Lord, I pray your jugdment about them, when you have perused them.

We have read enough of this to suppress it, and to examine it how this came to his hands.

Where is Aaron Smith?

My Lord, here is another that is worse than that, charging the Ju­stice of the Nation. Pray call Mr. Aaron Smith, and Mr. Henry Starkey.

Mr. Smith, did you deliver these two papers to the Prisoner?

Does any body accuse me that I did?

You are accused for it.

I desire proof may be made against me.

That will be done.

Look you we will not interrupt the Tryal with it, Mr. Smith must be ta­ken into safe custody only to secure him, till we can examine it; not as charged with any crime, but only that he may be forth-coming to be examined.

You do not make a direct answer Mr. Smith in the case, it will be proved upon you.

Mr. Attorney, I know not what answer to make better than I have gi­ven; our Law says no man is bound to accuse himself.

But our Law says, you shall be examined.

I come to give no Informations here Mr. Attorney: if I did I should be then examined.

Here are Instructions given to the Prisoner, they say you gave them.

I desire to have it proved.

Mr. Attorney, you will take a Recognizance of Mr. Smith, to be, forth­coming during this Sessions.

I will not depart my Lord I assure you: And I hope Mr. Attorney will take my word.

Indeed I will not Mr. Smith, because you have broken it with me al­ready, when I gave you leave to go to the Prison, I did not think you would have a­bused that kindness, to give him papers.

Well take his Recognizance.

'Tis high time to have a care, when our Lives and Estates, and all are beset here.

What do you mean by that Mr. Smith?

I said it not, meaning by it the Court, for I dealare Jabhor that Ex­pression to be so interpreted, that I reflected upon the Court.

Why do you use such loose Expressions then Mr. Smith?

Because I have been threatned since I came to Town, though I have not spoke one word in any publik company since I came.

It seems you will reflect here in the face of the Court, and in the face of the Countrey, upon the Government, upon the justice of the Kingdom.

No, my Lord, I have told you what I meant by it; I neither reflected upon the Court, nor upon the Government, nor upon the Justice of the Kingdom.

You should have done well to have forborn such expressions as those were.

Shall I not have the use of the papers, my Lord; will you not please to de­liver them back to me, now you have perused them?

One of them is a Speech, and a most seditious, libellous Speech, to spit venom upon the Government in the face of the Countrey. We cannot tell who made it, but it seems to be beyond your capacity, and therefore we must enquire into it: but we do not think fit to let you have the use of that paper.

For that which contains the names of the Witnesses, that you have a­gain: For the other matters, the instructions in point of Law, if they had been written in the first person, in your own name, that we might believe it was your Writing, it would have been something; but when it is written in the second person, you should do so and so; by which it appears to be written by another person: It is an ill presi­dent to permit such things; that were to give you councel in an indirect way, which the Law gives you not directly.

If I am ignorant what Questions to ask of the Witnesses, shall not my Friends help me, my Lord?

We will sift out the Truth as well as we can, you need not fear it.

Some of those things I took out of the Books my self. And if you are resolved to take away all my helps, I cannot help it, I know not that Mr. Smith wrote one of those papers.

But Mr. Smith would have given four Guineys it seems, as a Bribe to the Gaoler, and he offered four more to let him have liberty to come to him.

'Tis time indeed for Mr. Smith to have a care.

It was Mr. Starkey that offered me the four Guineys.

Pray call Mr. Henry Starkey. (But he did not appear.)

Then the Court took a Recognizance of 100l. of Mr. Smith to attend the Court durying the Session.

Pray, my Lord, let me have my papers delivered to me, I cannot make my De­fence else.

We are your councel in matter of Fact; and to give you your pa­pers, were to assign you councel against Law, they being not your own papers, but coming from a third hand.

Will you please to give me the paper that has the Questions in it, to ask the Witnesses?

There are no papers with any particular Questions to any one Witness, but only instructions how to carry your self in this case.

A great deal of it is my own, my Lord.

Mr. Attorney, truly I think that that do's not contain matter of Scandal may be transcribed and given to the Prisoner.

My Lord, I desire I may have that that has in the Margent of its the case of Lilburn and Stafford.

You shall not have Instructions to scandalize the Government, all that is necessary for your defence, you shall have.

If he had writ it himself I cannot well see how you could take it from him, and truly as 'tis, I had rather let him have too much, then too little.

My Lord, I thought I might have had counsel to have assisted me, but if I may have counsel neither before my Plea nor after, I that an ignorant, may be lost by it, but can't help it.

If matter of Law arise you shall have counsel in it.

I know not but it might have admitted of an Argument, that which if I had had my papers, I should have offered to you.

Mr. Colledge, we shall not go any farther now, I know not how many Wit­nesses will be produced either of one side or another, but 'tis too late to go on this Morning, and because we attend here only upon this occasion, we shall go on with the Tryal at two a clock in the afternoon.

My Lord, you will be pleased to order the papers for me to peruse in the mean time.

We have ordered that you shall have a Transcript of the paper of Instructi­ons, leaving out that which is scandalous.

I desire I may have a copy of the whole.

No, we do not think fit to do that.

Pray let me know which you do except against.

Look you Mr. Attorney, I think we may let him have a Copy of the whole.

My Lord, before you rise, I desire, you would please to take the Ex­amination of Mr. Gregory, about Mr. Starkey.

Sweatr him. (Which was done.)

What do you know concerning Mr. Starkey, and what he did offer you?

When they came, by your Lordships permission, to Mr. Colledge, they brought some papers which they delivered to him: And afterwards Mr. Starkey took me aside, and told me it was hard usage that the Prisoner could not have his Councel permitted to come to him. Do him what favour you can, and I shall not be un­grateful; so he clapped four Guineys in my hand, but I immediately laid them down upon the Table, and would not take them.

My Lord, I desire you would please to send for Mr. Starkey?

Let him be sent for.

You must go and take up Mr. Starkey.

Must I keep him in custody? I don't know him.

No, you must order him from the Court to attend here.

These papers Colledge shall not be debarr'd of, for his Defence, nor you, Mr. Attorney, from prosecuting upon them.

No, we will put them into such hands as shall take care about that.

Very few, my Lord, have appeared to do me any kindness, some have been fright­ned and imprisoned, others are now in trouble for it.

Well, you shall have the use of your papers.

May I have any Friends come to see me in the mean time?

They must not come to you in the Prison to give you advice; but I'll tell you, since you move it, if my Brothers think it convenient, whilst the Court does withdraw, any body of your Friends may come to you, in the presence of your Keeper.

Certainly you cannot think we can give a priviledge to any Friend of yours to commit any Demeanor to offer Bribes to any person.

I know not of any such thing.

We do not charge you with it, but Mr. Starkey did.

I have been kept a strict close Prisoner, and if my friends are so kind to me, as to help me in order to my Defence, I hope you will not be against it. Pray, my Lord, let me have my papers.

You shall have them, but they shall be put into such hands as the Court may have command over; they shall be in the Sheriffs Sons hands, and you shall have the immediate use of them.

If there be any thing else in those papers necessary for my Defence, I pray I may have it.

The Speech is not fit for you, what other papers would you have?

Another paper there is, that is something of Law.

Nothing but libellous, and what is a scandal to the Government.

You are to have nothing of matter of Law, but what you are to pro­pose your self.

If you take away all my helps, I cannot propose any thing.

To allow you those papers, is to allow you councel by a side Wind.

Look you, the papers of instructions shall be delivered to the Sheriffs Son, who shall let you peruse it in this interval, and make use of it in your Tryal, but it must be in safe custody, to be used upon further occasion, as the Kings Attorney shall think fit.

At 2 a clock the Court returned, and Proclamation was made for at­tendance, and for the Under-Sheriff to return his Jury.

My Lord, ought not I to have a copy of this Jury?

No, they are to look upon you as they come to be sworn, and then you are to challenge them.

Stephen Colledge, hold up thy hand, and hearken to the Court; those good men that you shall hear called, and personally appear, are to pass, &c.

Pray Sir let the way be clear, that I may see them.

Ay, Ay.

Pray, Sir, how many are there of the Jury that appear?

There are enough.

Make Proclamation for Information,

Henry Standard, (who was Sworn,) Richard Croke, (who was challen­ged by the Prisoner,) William Bigg (challenged.)

Do you challenge him peremptorily, or with cause?

If he do not shew cause, it must be supposed it is peremptory.

I suppose he was upon the Grand-Jury.

That would be a challenge with cause.

No, I was not.

Then I do not challenge him; I know him not. He was Sworn.

Thomas Marsh, challenged. Thomas Martin, did not appear. Gabriel Merry, being almost a hundred years of age, was excused. Robert Bird, Sworn. John Shorter, Sworn. William Windlow, Sworn. Edward Ayres, challenged. William Ayres. challenged. And Richard Ayres, challenged. Charles Hobbs, Sworn. Roger Browne, Sworn. Timothy Doyley, Sworn. Richard Dutton, challenged. Ralph Wallis, Sworn. John Nash, challenged. John Benson, Sworn. John Piercy, Sworn. William We [...], challenged. And John Lawrence, Sworn.

• Henry Standard
• William Bigg
• Robert Bird
• John Shorter
• William Windlow
• Charles Hobbs
• Roger Browne
• Timothy Doyley
• Ralph Wallis
• John Benson
• John Piercy
• John Lawrence

Mr. Sheriff, there are a great many of the Jury that are not Sworn, they are discharged, let them go out of the Court, and so you will make room for the Wit­nesses.

Gentlemen, you of the Jury, look upon the Prisoner, and hearken to his Charge. He stands Indicted by the name of Stephen Colledge, late of Oxford, in the County of Oxford, Carpenter; for that he as a false Traytor, &c. proved in the In­dictment, mutatis mutandis, and upon this Indictment he hath been Arraigned, &c.

May it please your Lordship, and you Gentlemen that are Sworn, this is an Indictment against Stephen Colledge, the Prisoner at the Bar, for an endeavour to raise a Rebellion within this Kingdom wherein he is accused, and the Jury find that he as a false Traytor against the Kings Majesty, contrary to the duty of his Allegiance, on the 10th. of March, in the 33d. year of the Kings Reign, at Oxon. here did tray­terously conspire, and compass the death of the King, and the Subversion of the Government, and to raise a Rebellion in the Kingdom, and to slaughter his Maje­sties Subjects, to put the King to death, to levy War against him▪ and to deprive him of his Royal State and Government, and to alter the Government at his own Will and Pleasure; and to accomplish this, he did at Oxon. here prepare Arms for the carrying on the War, and excited one Edward Turbervile and others, to arm them­selves against the accomplishment of this Design, and did declare his purpose was to [Page 22] seise the Kings person at Oxon. and that he was one of those that was to do it; and to bring the said Turbervile and other Subjects to his purpose, did falsly, malici­ously, and traiterously declare in their Hearing, that there was no good to be ex­pected from the King, that he minded nothing but the Destruction of his people, and Arbitrary Government, and to introduce Popery. And this is laid to be against the Duty of his Allegiance, against the Kings peace, and against the form of the Statutes in those cases made and provided. The Prisoner you hear upon his Arraignment hath pleaded Not guilty, which Issue you are to try, and if the Evidence for the King, which are ready to be produced, prove that which is laid to his charge, you are to find it accordingly.

May it please your Lordship, and you Gentlemen of the Jury. The Prisoner at the Bar stands indicted of a very high crime, no less then High Treason, and that too of the deepest dye; it is for an Endeavour to destroy the King, to sub­vert the Government, to raise a Rebellion amongst the Kings Subjects. And Gen­tlemen, those Instances that we shall give you, and produce our Evidence to for the proof of that, are these. He laid his Design to seise the King at Oxon. and he did not want his Accomplices to do it, but they were not men, Gentlemen, that were Prote­stants, but men that were Rebels in the late War, they were men of such a kidney, that he associated himself with, and these were the persons that were to assist in this At­tempt. In order to this he had prepared Arms in an extraordinary manner, Arms of a great value for one of his condition, who is by Trade a Joyner; for if a true estimate were taken of the value of the Arms; I believe they were worth twice his whole Estate; he prepared a good Horse, extraordinary Pistols, a Carbine, a Coat of Maile, an Head-piece, and so being armed Cap-a-pee, with that design he came hither to Oxon. And you will judge whether these be fit Tools for a Joyner.

I beseech you Sir, have you any body to prove this? if you have not, you do hurt to the Jury as well as me, to speak it.

Be patient Mr. Colledge, and let Mr. Attorney go on to open the Charge. I will tell you and the Jury too, that what he says further then he makes good by proof and Witnesses, will serve for nothing.

'Tis hard the Counsel should plead against me, and open things that he can't prove.

I will do you all the right imaginable, and therefore I do tell you again, if they do not prove it, all he says is nothing.

But I beseech you my Lord, since there hath been such extraordinary means, and methods used to contrive my Death, that the Witnesses may be examined apart, and far from the hearing one of another.

That we will take care of by and by.

Mr. Colledge. This shews your temper, you are very inordinate in your way of expressing your self.

Mr. Attorney, I should not interrupt you, if I were not afraid this was spoken to possess the Jury.

I hope to prove what I have said, or every word of it shall pass for nothing.

'Tis impossible for all the men on earth to prove it.

Gentlemen, these were the particulars I was opening to you, in what manner he was armed, and how accoutred he came hither. We shall likewise shew you that he made it his business to perswade others to undertake the Design, and joyn with him, and as if open War were already declared; he gave out a sign, which was a blue Ribbon, a wrought Ribbon with letters in it, and this was the mark and sign they were to know one another by. This was given out by him frequently; and that it may not seem an extraordinary thing, Gentlemen, though indeed it was a wild atempt, yet you will cease to wonder when you have heard of the exploit of Venner, who with a few men raised such a commotion soon after the Kings coming in, and the several ex­ploits that have of late in Scotland been carried on by a few discontented persons. So that men of the like Principles, as we shall give you an account of this Gentlemans Principles what they were, may well be thought to ingage in such an extraordinary ex­ploit. And we shall prove what the incouragement was he was to have; for he boasted of himself, that he should be in a little time a Collonel.

What, Sir?

A Collonel, a great preferment for a Joyner.

Yes, it was so.

We shall shew to you that this was not a sudden unpremeditated thing: for we shall prove that he had entertained the horridst malice against the King that ever Subject entertained against his Sovereign: For we shall give this evidence, and his Front will not oppose it, that he had made it his common discourse in Coffee-Houses, and publick Houses, (and I believe I could bring you 40 and 40 Witnesses to it) to de­fame the King, and murder him in his Reputation, and was one of the Complices with Fitz Harris, who lately was executed for that venomous Libel: We shall prove that he justified it, and maintained it to be as true as the Gospel. We shall give evidence that he carried on the same design with that Arch-Traytor who was a Papist; and I be­lieve if this Gentleman were examined throughly, he would be found to be one of the same Stamp, and acted by the same Principle; for I think that no Protestant Subject would attempt such things as we shall prove to you. I believe, Gentlemen, you have frequently heard, as none of us but have, that the King hath been traduced as a Designer of Arbitrary Government, and his Reputation blasted maliciously, and falsly, as an In­troducer of Popery: Whence comes all this generally, but out of the Popish Quiver, who make it their business to set the Kings good Subjects at variance amongst them­selves; and against their Prince, by styling the King a Papist, as this person hath done; nay, he hath been so impudent as to report that the King was in the Plot against his own life. We shall prove to you, how here and at other places he hath frequently done this. To go further, we shall produce to you the evidence that he drew the King's Picture, and exposed him in all the reproachful characters imaginable; and that the Picture might be the better understood, he adds a Ballad to it: And that he may not have the confidence to say this is not true, we shall produce to you a whole bundle of these papers, among those which his Son made a discovery of, when they were sent to [Page 22] [...] [Page 23] [...] [Page 22] his Uncle to be hid, and we shall prove him to be the Author of them; and yet that this man should have the confidence to say he is a good Subject and a good Protestant, when by all ways imaginable he goes about to ruin the Government, and defame the King! And Gentlemen when we have given you this account by Witnesses, for I would have you believe me in nothing, but according as I prove it, you will not won­der then that he should say his Life is in danger, (for so it is indeed.) And if any man ever was Guilty of High Treason, sure he is, and being Guilty of the greatest Treason, he deserves the severest Punishment.

Pray Gentlemen of the Jury, take Mr. Attorney at his word, and remem­ber Sir, you desire not to be believed your self, but what you prove.

May it please your Lordship, and Gentlemen, pursuant to what Mr. Attorney hath opened, we will call our Witnesses, and we will begin with Mr. Dug­dale, who was a Witness against my Lord Stafford, at his Tryal in Parliament, whose credit Mr. Colledge did attest at that Tryal, asserting him to be an honest good man, and I believe his evidence will go in a great measure thro [...]l that Mr. Attorn. hath opened, & when we have done with him, we hope to second him with other Witnesses of as good credit, and that will say as much to the purpose.

Mr. Dugdale, look upon the Prisoner, and tell the Court whether you know him.

Will you give us an account of your knowledge of him?

My Lord, I humbly desire they may be examined apart, and not in the hear­ing one of another.

That with submission ought not to be in the Kings Case, though we think there are none of them, that will speak any more then the Truth.

Here are several of them my Lord, they are all of a gang.

Not of your gang, Mr. Colledge.

I pray they may go out my Lord. (Which was done accordingly.)

If your Lordships please, whether or no I may deliver in these papers?

By & by, time enough when we ask for them, speak your own knowledg.

My Lord, I have been I think acquainted with Mr. Colledge 2 years or thereabouts. I have been several times in Mr. Colledges company, and truly sometimes he hath been mightily bent against Popery; he hath at sometimes uttered himself, be­cause the King did not prosecute the Papists according as he thought sufficiently, that the King was a Papist himself, that he was as deep in the Plot as any Papist of them all, that he had an Hand in Sir Edmondbury Godfry's Death. This Mr. Colledge I appeal to your self, whether you have not said it: And in this Town of Oxford you have several times told me that nothing was to be expected from him, he would no nothing.

Who did tell you so?

Mr. Colledge did tell me that there was nothing to be expected from the King, but the introducing of Popery and Arbitrary Government, this I belive Mr. Colledge will acknowledge to be true.

Where was this spoken?

This was spoken at a Coffee-House, called Combe's Coffee-House in this Town, and at the Angel-Inn in this Town at a Barbers Shop; that day the King went out of Town, we were in the same Shop.

Who was there besides?

Do not interrupt our Witnesses, let us have done with him, and you shall have time to ask him questions after.

For your Instruction, I will tell you, your time is not yet come, if you chop in, and interrupt the Witnesses, you will disturb any man living; but your way is this, when he hath delivered his testimony, ask him any questions then, and he shall be bound to answer you, and in the mean time you shall have pen, ink and paper, to help your memory.

That day the King went out of Town, presently after he went, you and I went into the Angel-Inn: and we went into the Barbers-Shop that is just within the Inn, and being charging your Pistols there, you said Rowley was gone, the Rogue was afraid of himself, he was shirked away, and here I appeal to your own conscience, whe­ther you did not speak it?

Don't appeal to him, 'tis nothing for that.

Who did he mean by Rowley?

Was that his common application for the King?

It was his common word concerning the King. And at other times speaking that the King did not do those things that were fair, he hath given mighty great words against him: He hath told me that there was no trust to be put in him; for it was the People we must trust to, and we must look to arm our selves, and that he would arm himself, and be here at Oxford, and he told me here in the Town accordingly, when I came out of the Countrey, and he said that he had several stout men that would stand by him in it. Their intention was, as he said, for the rooting out of Popery, by which name he always termed the Church that is now established by Law, as to be of the same nature the Papists were. This I believe Mr. Colledge will acknowledge.

Well, go on Sir.

And at a time when he had Dr. Tongue at his House, he told me, that as for Dr. Tongue, he had much ado with him, and he had been at a great charge to keep him in order, that he was forced to neglect his own business to look after him; for if he had not done so, the Rogue, as he said, had a mind to fling all upon the Protestants, that is, the Dissenters; for he does not count the Church of England to be so; that he had much ado to keep him in order; for he had said he had drawn Papers to that pur­pose, but those papers are secured; for where they are, I can't tell.

Who were they that were to be with him in that design of his?

He told me Captain Chinton, Captain Browne, and one Dr. Lewes, and he brought them into Town here, when he came with him.

To what purpose did he bring them?

Expecting there would be a rising.

Did he tell you that here?

Yes, the Friday, I think it was, after the Parliament first sat.

How did he express himself? what they had to do.

They were to be here, in case there were any rising, which he ex­pected.

What use did he say he would make of them?

For the defence of the Protestant Religion, against the King and all his Adherents.

What did he say he would do to the King? I would not lead you.

He did not say what particularly.

What did he say if the King did not yield to the Parliament?

If the King did not yield to the Parliament, he should be forced to it.

Where did you hear him say that?

At Oxford.

Did you hear him declare this at London?

He did say at London, he expected there would be something done at Oxford, and that he would go thither with his Horse and Arms, and those Gentlemen I named before would go with him. And he said, let them begin when they would, he did not care how soon, his party was the greatest party.

What was that Capt. Brown? did you know him?

Yes, I knew him very well; he did much frequent Mr. Colledge's com­pany; he was in the late Army against the King.

Did you see him have any Pistols?

Yes, I have seen him carry Pistols about him.

Where, in his Pocket?

I saw them in the House.

At Oxford?

Did you see them in his hand?

I cannot tell that, he had them in the House, I saw them there.

Did you see him in his Silk Armour about the Parliament-House, the Lobby, or any place?

I cannot say that.

What did you know of his delivering any marks or signs for persons to be distinguished by?

I had as much Ribbon from him as came to forty shillings, with no Po­pery, no Slavery wrought in it; and he gave it me to distribute among my Friends in the Countrey, that they might be known by other persons that would wear the same.

Where had you it?

At London, from Mr. Colledge.

Where was it to be distributed?

Among those that I knew to be Dissenters in the Countrey.

Were you to come to Oxford; by agreement, with mr. Colledge?

I promised him to come to Oxford, and did so.

Well, go on, what more do you know?

At London I was once at a Coffee-House with Mr. Colledge, and with some of the members of the House of Commons; it was a little before they met; and they were earnestly talking of the Parliament at Oxford; and of some disturbance that was likely to happen here. And it was then fully agreed, and Mr. Colledg was by, that it would be the best way, out of every County, where the Parliament had the best interest in the people, to leave one in every County that might manage the peo­ple. This I appeal to Mr. Colledge whether it be true.

You appeal to me. Shall I speak now, my Lord?

No, you will remember it by and by.

What do you know of any Pictures?

Pray let him speak that over again which he mentioned last.

Being in a Coffee-House with Mr. Colledge, there were some of the members of the House of Commons by; and speaking of a disturbance that might happen here at Oxford; it was then agreed, that in every Quarter where the Parlia­ment had the most interest in the people, they should not all come up, but some re­main there to manage the people.

What do you know of any Pictures or Papers, have you any about you:

Yes, I have one thing I have received from Mr. Colledge, that is, the Letter pretended to be intercepted to Roger L'Estrange.

Pray, what account did he give you of it? who made it?

He told me he was the Author of it himself, and he shewed me it in manuscript before it was printed; and he told me, he got one Curtis or his Wife to print it; but he would never trust them again, for they cheated him of some of the Gain.

Who was the Author did he say?

He himself.

Pray produce it Sir.

This and others he delivered to me to disperse.

What is it mr. Attorney?

It is a Letter, and a great part of Fitz-Harris's Libel is taken out; it seems Colledge was the Author, and this is the Original of the Libel.

Did he tell you this was of his making?

Did he disperse them to any body else?

Yes, there were some given to one Mr. Boson, he had some at the same time, and Mr. Baldwin had some.

First Q. Whether they that talk—

Pray give my Lord an account what more papers and Libels he de­livered to you.

I received one like this, I cannot say it was the same, where all the Bi­shops were changing their Hats for Cardinal Caps.

Where is Rary Shew; for it seems he hath expounded the meaning of that.

I suppose 'tis his own cutting too.

I heard Mr. Colledge sing it.

Where?

In Oxfordshire, and in Oxford Town, at my Lord Lovelace's.

Where at my Lord Lovelace's?

At his House in the Countrey.

Who were in the company there?

Sir Robert Clayton, Sir Thomas Player, Mr. Rouse, Mr. Colledge.

You say you heard him in Oxford, and in Oxfordshire, and at my Lord Lovelace's, where is that?

My Lord. Lovelace is here himself, and hears what he says.

I might mistake the County, but I heard him sing it at Oxford Town, and at my Lord Lovelace's House again.

Where is that?

I cannot tell the Town.

How came you there?

Sir Thomas Player did invite me thither.

Where is it in Oxfordshire?

I cannot tell, 'tis four miles from Henly.

Was my Lord at home?

Yes, he was.

Now for the Cut then; Did he shew you this Cut?

Yes, he told me he would get it printed.

Was it before it was printed then that he sung it?

Yes, it was.

Who did he tell you did make it?

He told me he was the Author of this Cut, and he gave me one, and we sang it together presently after it was printed.

How did he describe it to you, when he shewed it to you?

That which hath the Pack on the back of it, he described to be the King; those that follow him were Topham, Cooper, Hughs, and Snow; and that com­pany of men there is the House of Commons.

What was meant by the Pack?

The Parliament and all his Retinue; and then here is the King in the mire again, according as 'tis represented in the Long—

Ay, he goes on well. And this here is the Bishops which they thrust into the Pack when they have got him down into the mire, and then they thrust them all away, as it is in the Song, to hoot them away.

Did he make this explication to you?

Who were the All?

King and Clergy-men and all.

Where was this he explained it?

At London.

Is there any thing relating to White-hall? what name did he give that?

Yes, he said, Louse-hall was White-hall, because of its poverty.

To the Tune of, I am a Sensless thing—

This shews you what sort of man he is.

Here you say he explained this with the Pack at the back to be the King?

Yes, he told me so.

What did he mean by the two Faces?

That he was half Protestant, and half Papist.

Did he make any comparison between his own party and the Kings party?

He said they were but an handful to them.

To whom?

To his party, that was the Dissenters.

Speak that out.

That their party was but a handful to theirs.

Theirs and theirs, who did he mean?

He meant the Dissenters, for the Church of England he reckoned a­mong the Papists.

Tell us the words he said.

He said, his party was the true Church of England, and that which is e­stablished by Law, were but Protestants in masquerade.

Tell us when he made the comparison, what words he did use, and upon what occasion.

When he perceived the King at Oxford would not yield to the House of Commons, he said, Let him begin as soon as he would, he did not care how soon he did begin, for their party▪ meaning the King and his party, was but an handful to him and his party, calling them the true Protestants, the others were Protestants in masquerade.

What did he desire you to do, to be assisting in any thing?

He always desired me to be true of that side, he hoped I was, and to get good Arms for my self.

Did he in Oxford desire this of you?

No he did not.

For what purpose did he desire you to arm your self?

He said the King had a design on the people to introduce Popery and Arbitrary Government, and he expected every day when they would begin, and the sooner the better, he would be provided for them.

Was that in Oxford?

He spoke it in Oxford, and in the City too.

Did he tell you of any that were listed?

He spoke of Capt. Brown, and Capt. Clinton, and Don Lewes, and a­bundance more he said he had.

Did he tell you he had them here?

Yes, about forty of them were there he said.

Did he tell you of any that were listed, in order to the coming down of the Parliament at Oxford?

Not listed, but were intended to come down; and at Oxford he told me they were come down.

Were you in their company in Oxford here?

Yes, I was.

In the company of whom? name them.

Of Capt. Brown, Don Lewes, and several others of that Gang; I know not their names, but I know their faces.

Did he take notice to you that they were come down.

Yes.

To what purpose?

He expected there would be a rising in Oxford, and to this purpose. Mr. Colledge was one that debated it at Richard's Coffee-House, and it was to be car­ried from thence to the Kings-Head Club, Whether it were not best to leave a Parlia­ment man in every County?

Where was this?

This was at Richard's Coffee-House in London, against they met here.

We could give you an account of a volume of these things, abun­dance of scandalous Pamphlets, both Songs, Libels, and Ballads, that were made by this Gentleman, and all seized in his custody.

But he sung this Libel?

All these, Gentlemen, (shewing a great bundle) were to be dis­persed over England.

It was, it seems, expounded and sung by the Prisoner at the Bar; he gave you the Ballad here at Oxford, you say, Mr. Dugdale.

No, I heard him sing it here.

Pray, Mr. Dugdale, what was the use was to be made of this Ballad?

Come, go to the next, we call this Evidence to shew you the malice of the man.

Pray, my Lord, let me ask some Questions of Mr. Dugdale?

Ay, now let the Prisoner ask his Questions (to do him right) before we go to another Witness.

My Lord, I have a word or two more about a Libel in manuscript; that very day the Sheriffs were to be chosen, it was to be printed, and he told me the Prin­ter dust not print it, it was so dangerous.

What was it, can you remember any part of it?

No, but it was the worst I ever heard in my life, against the King and Government.

Now ask him what Questions you will.

Pray, when was the first time you gave this Evidence?

Truly, Mr. Colledge, I don't keep an account of time, I cannot give an account of time.

As near as you can, tell him.

I cannot tell whether it might be in June, I think it was.

How long before I was taken?

It might be about the time you were taken.

Pray, who did you give it before?

I gave it to Sir Lionel Jenkins.

Where did you swear these particulars were done then?

What was done in the City, I swore to be done there.

What City?

London; the same words were said in the City of London, and over again here. I have repeated, for the most part, only the words you said here, but more was in the City than here.

Did you swear then, that the words you swear now were spoken at London?

It may be we might not name Oxford then.

He says well; it might not be named then.

Then you did give in your Information, that I spoke these words at Ox­ford?

I was not examined about what was done at Oxford; but I believe I have heard you speak the same words to me at my Lord Lovelace's, but I do not know what County that is in.

I ask you positively, whether you did not swear that what you now say was spoken at Oxford, was spoken at London.

I did not name Oxford then.

But did not you say that was done at London, that now you say was done here.

Truly, you said them both at London, and here.

Pray, Mr. Dugdale, what had you to give this your information?

Truly I can't say I have received the worth of a Groat.

Nor was ever promised any thing?

No, I never received any thing, nor ever was promised, but only what the King gave me for going down into the Countrey for my charges.

Was that the same Allowance you had when you were Witness for the Popish Plot?

Yes.

Have you any other Allowance than what you had before, when you gave Evidence at my Lord Stafford's Tryal?

No, nor have got all that yet neither.

But pray observe my question, Mr. Dugdale, and answer it: Did you not swear at London that I spoke these words there, which now you say I spoke here.

Pray observe, he says he did not then name Oxford; but in the giving of his Evidence now, he tells you a series of what passed between London and Oxford; and I must tell you further, if a Treason be committed, and the Evidence prove it to be in two Countries, the King may choose which County he will prosecute and bring his In­dictment in, and give in Evidence the Facts in both Counties. But you shall have your Objection to it afterwards, and we will take it into consideration. I tell you this, that it may not seem to you that the Witnesses speak impertinently of what was done at London; but if nothing was done or said at Oxford, then it will be taken into conside­ration, you shall have it saved afterwards, I only him it now, that you may not think it impertinent.

I beseech your Lordship give me leave to speak one word; When he made his Affidavit before Sir Lionel Jenkins there about seizing the King, about the party I had, and the Arms I had provided, ought not he at the same time to have said where I said those words to him? but he did swear then it was in London that I said those words to him; and coming before a Grand Jury of honest Gentlemen in London, they were so wise and honest as to do me Justice, and not find the Bill; so their design failing there, then they changed it to Oxford.

You did not come to your Tryal there, if you had so done, then they would have asked him in particular what was said at Oxford, and what at London, as 'tis now, being done in both Counties. But look you, if you will ask any particular questions, do, for they have other Witnesses to produce.

My Lord, I only ask this question, Whether it be not rational to think, that when he swore before Sir Lionel Jenkins, he should not swear the words were spoken, and things done?

He hath said the same words to me at my Lord Lovelace's, as I lay in Bed with him, and this I never mentioned but now in my Evidence.

What words did I say there?

If you must have them repeated, they were about the King.

What were they?

That he was a Papist, and designed Arbitrary Government.

Did I say so to you at my Lord Lovelace's?

Yes, as we lay a Bed.

Did you lye together?

Yes, yes, they were intimates.

I had not six words with you when you went to Bed; for you said you were weary, and went asleep presently.

I say you said this in the morning; for we had above an hours discourse when we were a Bed, and all our discourse was about the Parliament and the King.

Where was it I said those words in Oxford?

At Combe's coffe-house was one place.

Was there no body by?

No, but at the Angel-Inn there were several persons standing by.

Surely then some of those heard the words as well as you.

It may be so, I am sure many at London have been by, as Mr. Starkey by name, Mr. Boson, Mr. Baldwin? they have rebuked you for it, and I have rebu­ked you too.

What words have they and you heard, and rebuked me for?

When you have been railing against the King, and said, That he de­signed nothing but the introducing of Popery, and Arbitrary Government, and that he was a Papist.

He loves to hear it repeated.

What Arms did you see of mine in this Town?

I saw Pistols; you had a case of Pistols before you, and you had some Pocket-Pistols.

None but one I borrowed of you, and that you had again; had I? pray speak, did you see any more?

It may be there might not, but there were Pocket-Pistols in the room, and you had them in your hand.

He swore but now that he saw me have Pocket-Pistols, when it was but one, and that was his own.

Heark you now, you talk of Pistols, do you know that he had any Pi­stols in his Holsters at Oxford.

Yes, he had.

Yes, I know that, I don't deny it.

I think a Chissel might have been more proper for a Joyner.

You say I was confederated with Capt. Brown, and other men.

You have told me that Captain Brown had agood Allowance, and it was pity he had not a better Allowance; and you would speak he might have a better Allowance, for he was able to do good service when the time came.

From whom?

Among you.

Among whom?

You know there were several Gatherings among you that I was not privy to.

What do I know?

You know mony was gathered many times.

For what purpose?

You never told me particulars; it was to distribute some where, I had none of it.

He does not say these men were concerned with you, but you said so.

You know, Mr. Colledge▪ there were many Gathering of monies.

Did I tell you there were any Gatherings for Capt. Brown?

He says you told him no particulars; if you have a mind to ask him any more Questions, do.

Pray, Sir George, don't interrupt me, I am here for my Life. Did I tell you there were any Gatherings for Capt. Brown?

I do not say for him, nor whom you distributed it to; but you gathered mony one among another, and you have paid mony.

I have paid mony! when, and to whom?

You will not deny that, you confessed upon your Examination that you gave a Guinny.

Sir, did you see me any more at Oxford, than in the Coffee-House, and at that Inn, when I went out of Town, and was going home with the City-members?

Yes.

Were you in my company any where, but in those two places?

Yes I was with you at the Chequer.

Did you come a purpose to speak with me, or had you any business particularly with me?

Truly, Mr. Colledge, I have forgot whether I had or no, I was in the Room with you there.

Where is that Room?

I can't tell all the Rooms in that House.

Was it above stairs, or below?

Both above and below, two days I was there with you.

Was there any of this discourse you speak of passed there between us.

I know I was with you in those two places I mentioned before; you called me aside to drink a Glass of mum, and there was none in the Room but us two at that Coffee-House.

Sir, you came to Town but on Friday, I think, it must be Saturday, Sunday or Monday this was, for we stayed no longer in Oxford.

Nay, I came to Oxford, either Wednesday night or Thursday morning; and I saw Mr. Hunt and you together the same day I came.

Did I explain any Pictures to you at London, or owned I was the Author of them?

Yes, upon my Oath, you have explained Pictures to me, and there is one Picture that I have not shewed yet, which you have explained what the meaning was.

'Tis your common Trade it seems.

You told me you got them done.

Clerk reads, A Character of a Popish Successor, &c.

How did he explain it to you▪ Mr. Dugdale?

I would see what opinion he had of the Church of England; there are some Church-men, what are they a doing?

They are a parcel of Tantivy-men riding to Rome; and here's the Duke of York, half man, half devil, trumpeting before them.

You have got somebody to explain these things to you, Mr. Dugdale.

You did it, upon my Oath.

Oh, fie upon you, Mr. Dugdale, consider what you say.

All this you did explain, it seems.

And in one place of the other Libel, the King was termed a Rogue, but they put him in by another name.

Where is it?

'Tis in Rary-Shew; In the Manuscript it was, Now, now the Rogue is down.

Let me see it, I took notice of it, 'tis, Now, now the Gyant is down, here.

I ask you, Sir, Whether the Song which you say was sung at my Lord Love­lace's, and other places, was the same with this?

For the general it is, I can't tell for every word: You sang it half a do­zen times there, and the musick plaid to you.

I ask you whether it was the same with this?

I can't tell for every word you sang.

Was there any body by at my explaining of these Pictures?

Mr. Baldwyn was by, and reproved and corrected you, that you would be so open.

Was there any body by at Oxford, when you did hear me talk of Arming my self?

They were walking up and down in the Barbers Shop, and I know not whether they did hear or no.

Was that Gentleman sworn at my Lord Stafford's Tryal, Mr. Dugdale?

Yes, I was sworn there, I acknowledge it.

Did he swear any thing on your behalf, for your credit, Mr. Dugdale?

That was by hear-say, Mr. Attorney, at the Tower: I know nothing of my own knowledge; but I did believe him another man than I find him.

No question, or else you would not have trusted him.

Swear Stevens. (Which was done.) Do you give my Lord, and the Jury, an account where you found this precious Ballad.

The first draught I found in his Bed-chamber.

What, of all of them? which is it?

The Rary Shew, we found the first draught of it in his House, when we came to search his papers, by order of Council, and the Printer that Printed the Ballad, hath told me since, he had it from him—

What say you your self? speak your own knowledge.

And Mr. Atterbury was by when we searched the House.

Well, Mr. Atterbury will tell his own story.

I have seen you on Horseback, with Holsters before you, with some hun­dreds of men after you, coming out of the Bell-savage Inn; they said, you were going to choose Parliament-men: I have known you three or four years, you were Joyner to our Hall.

We call you to that particular of the papers, and you run out in a story of a Cock and a Bull, and I know not what.

Will you ask him any questions?

No, only this; Do you swear, upon your Oath, that you found the Original in my House?

Yes, Sir, you will see it with my hand to it, and some more of them.

And you found too those that were printed?

Yes, both our names are to them, that were concerned in the searching of them.

You found the paper in the House?

Yes.

That is Towzer; but you have the Original of the Rary Shew?

Pray, Gentlemen, observe, he swears that is an Original.

No, no, he found the paper in your House.

I ask about the Original of Rary Shew.

He says he saw a paper drawn with a Pencil that was like the Original.

There was an Original drawn with a Pencil, upon Dutch Paper, 'tis lost since, for we do not see it here now, which at the same time we found upon Colledge's Table in his Bed-chamber.

Did you find an Original of that in my Chamber?

Yes, we found a paper drawn with Black-lead.

Pray, Where is it?

I did see it, it was drawn in Black-lead, it was upon Dutch-paper, and lay upon the Table in your chamber.

Sure I am it was taken when we searched the House.

I am sure you could never find the Original of any such thing in my House.

Then where is Mr. Sewel, (Who was sworn.) Sir, did you see that trumpery taken?

I had a Warrant to seize Mr. Spur, and his Brother-in-law, Mr. Colledge. So I went down to seize Mr. Spur, and search his House for such papers as I should find. I could not find them in the House; but I enquired of him, after I had searched, and [Page 37] could not find them where they were; because I saw him at Mr. Colledge's when we first searched; he denied them a pretty while, but at last he told me they were in the Hay-mow in the Barn. When I came there, he was balling, and told me his Wife, Colledge's Sister had taken them down, and carried them into a room where I had searched before, but could not find them; and the man was angry then, so we run after his Wife, and found her with all these papers in a bag.

Are these the same papers?

Yes, and there were two other Cuts; the man himself is about the place somewhere.

Swear Mr. John Smith.

Come, Mr. Smith, do you know Mr. Colledge?

Yes.

Give us an account what dealings you have had with him, where, and when; what he hath said about the King; and tell us first whether you be intimately acquainted?

We were intimately acquainted. The first time I heard Mr. Colledge discoursing any thing of this nature, that is, concerning Treason, or any such thing, was once at a Coffee-House by Temple-Bar; there I met Colledge, and he told me he was invited to Dinner, and he likewise invited me to it. I asked him who provided the Dinner, he told me it was one Alderman VVilcox; I told him I was a stranger, and did not care for going: He told me I should be very welcome there, and at last pre­vailed upon me to go: And as I was going along, I asked him what the Alderman was? He told me he was a man that was as true as steel, and a man that would en­deavour to root out Popery: Said I, that may be done easily, if you can but prevail with the King to pass the Bill against the D. of York. No, no, said he, you are mista­ken, for Rowley is as great a Papist as the D. of York is (now he called the King Rowley) and every way as dangerous to the Protestant Interest, as is too apparent by his Arbi­trary Ruling. This was the discourse between the Coffee-House and the Tavern where we went to dine. When we came in, I asked Colledge again, whether the Alder­man was there; he said he was not there at that time: I asked him the second time what kind of man he was, he said he was one that lived in his Countrey-House, and gave freely to several people to buy Arms and Ammunition. And I asked him to what purpose? and he said it was to bring the King to submission to his people; adding there­to, that he wondred Old Rowley did not consider how easily his Fathers Head came to the Block, which he doubted not would be the end of Rowley at the last. After this discourse the Alderman came in; we dined, and every one went his own way about his own business. Mr. Colledge▪ then told me, if I would go with him to his own House, I should see how he was prepared with Arms and Provision. Soon after I met with him, and he desired me to go along and dine with him; and I did so, and there he did shew me his Pistols, his Blunderbuss, his great Sword; and he shewed me his Armour, Back and Breast; and he shewed me his Head-piece, which, if I am not mistaken, was covered over with Chamlet, it was a very fine thing; and, said he, [Page 38] These are the things which will destroy the pitiful Guards of Rowley, that are kept up contrary to Law and Justice, to set up Arbitrary Power and Popery.

What did I say, Sir, about my Armour?

Thus you said; It was to destroy Rowley's Guards (those were your words) that were kept up contrary to Law and Justice, to set up Arbitrary Power and Popery. After I had dined with him, I parted with him. A little before the Parliament was to meet at Oxford, I met him again; and were discoursing of several things, what preparations the City were making, how they were provided with Powder and Bullets; and for his part, he would go down to Oxford, for he expected a little sport there, upon the divisions that were like to be between the King and Parliament. Then said I to him, why, what is the matter there? Why, said he, we expect that the King will seize upon some of the members, and we are as ready as he. And, says he, for my part, I will be there, and be one that shall seize him, if he secure any of the members, (and I believe he did go down;) says he, you know how the City is provided: I told him, no, not so well as he; but he told me all was very well. After he came up again, I met him another time, and he told me, he went down in expectation of some sport; but Old Rowley was afraid, like his Grand-father Jamy, and so ran away like to beshit himself.

Did he say, If he had not ran away, he would have seized him?

He said nothing of that, but before, he said, He would be one of them should seize him, if he seized any of the members. After this he told me, that Fitz-Gerald and he had had a quarrel at the Parliament-door of the House of Lords at Ox­ford; that Fitz-Gerald had called him Rogue; and, said he, Fitz-Gerald made my Nose bleed; but before long, I hope to see a great deal more Blood shed for the cause. After this again, when there was a discourse of disarming the City, that my Lord Fe­versham was to come to do it, he told me, he was well provided, and if Feversham, or any man, nay Rowley himself should attempt any such thing, he would be the death of him, before any man should seize upon his Arms.

Did he discourse any thing to you about Arms to provide your self?

Yes, he did, I had an Armour from him.

What did he say to you about it?

He did desire me to get Arms, for I did not know how soon I might make use of them. I had an Armour from him upon trial; he said it cost him 30 or 40 s. I had it upon trial, but it was too big for me, so I gave it him back, and bought a new one.

Did he tell you to what purpose you should arm your self?

No, he did not name any purpose, but he told me I did not know how soon I might make use of it.

What did he say to you about any one's seizing the King?

He told me the Parliament were agreed to secure the King, and that in order to it, all Parliament-men came very well armed, and accompanied with arms and men; and he told me of a great man that had notice from all the Gentlemen of England how well they came armed.

What did he say of himself?

He would be one that should secure the King, if he seized any of the members.

When he had been there, what did he say?

If they had had any work, he was ready provided for them.

But pray tell us again what he said of the Kings running away?

He said Rowley was afraid, like his Grand-father Jumy, and ran away ready to beshit himself.

If you have done with him, Mr. Attorney, let the Prisoner ask him what Questions he will.

Mr. Smith, Where was this discourse I had with you?

Which do you mean, the former part or the latter?

The first discourse you talk of, what I told you going to Mr. Wilcox's to dinner, and when it was?

You know best when it was, I can't exactly remember the time, but you know 'tis true.

Where was it?

As we went along thither we had the first part of it, and when we came thither, you and I talked till Alderman Wilcox came in; and you and I were alone to­gether, and several persons that were there, were drawn into Cabals, two by two.

Where?

In the room where we dined; and you know there was a little room by, where some were drinking a Glass of Wine.

You say, by two and two the company were drawn into Cabals.

I tell you most of them were in Cabals, two and two together, only those two Gentlemen that belonged to the Alderman went up and down, and gave Wine.

What Religion are you of?

Is it for this man to ask me, my Lord, such a question?

Yes, answer him.

I am a Protestant.

You were a Priest.

Yes, what then? and I am in Orders now.

That was from the Church of Rome.

Yes and that is a good Ordination: I came in voluntarily to discover the Popish Plot, and was no Pentioner, nor received any Sallary from the King. I have spent several pounds, several scores of pounds, but received no recompence. And I was the Darling at one time all over the City, when I did adhere to what they would have me to do.

Did not you swear against my Lord Stafford?

Were not you a Witness, Mr. Smith, at my Lord Stafford's Tryal?

In that case I did give a general account of the design of the Papists; they did not then question my Reputation, and I defie all the World to say any thing against it.

Pray hear me Sir, if you please; the first discourse that you speak of about Mr. Wilcox's being a good man for the Cause, and contributing mony, this was when we were at Dinner.

This was that day when we went to dinner with him, you know it very well.

Where were the other Discourses I had with you?

Which part of them?

When I came from Oxford.

By the Ditch side, by your own House; I have two or three to prove it, we were an hour or two discoursing together about this business.

What business?

He tells you of two Discourses, one before you went to Oxford, and one after you came from thence.

He does say, that I discoursed him about our coming down hither to Oxford, that the Parliament would secure the King, and that I would be one of them that should seize him, and this was at the time when we dined with Alderman Wilcox.

Not so, he says after that time, and before you went to Oxford, he had such a discourse with you.

Yes, my Lord, so it was.

And does he speak of another time when I shewed him the Back, Breast and Arms?

Yes.

But he said, I discoursed then, that the City was provided with Arms, and that the Parliament were resolved to bring the King to submission.

When I was in the House with him, he then said Mr. Wilcox gave Mony to provide Arms: I asked for what? he said, it was to bring the King to submission to his People; and then he added, he admired that Rowley did not remeber how easily his Fathers Head came to the Block; and he doubted not but that would be the end of him too.

He spake of several times you know.

I do not know one word of it, nor can distinguish the times: But, Mr. Smith the last discourse you say about Oxford business, was by the Ditch side.

The Discourse about bringing the King to submission, was in the way as you went to dinner.

The last Discourse when you returned from Oxford, was by the Ditch side; but both before and after you spake to me at that place about this design of bring­ing the King to submission.

You said it was at Wilcox's at Dinner.

You mistook him then.

Nay, Sir George, you took him not right.

I have taken him right I assure you, and you shall see it by and by.

He is the falsest man that ever spoke with a tongue.

Swear Bryan Haynes. (which was done. Tell my Lord, and the Jury, whether you know this Gentleman, what converse you have had with him, and [Page 41] what discourse he hath had with you. Apply your self to Mr. Colledges business only.

I suppose he will not deny but that he knows very well; I have been ac­quainted with him ever since March last, before the sitting of the Parliament at Oxford. My Lord, there was a Warrant against me for High Treason; and I made my appli­cation to Mr. Colledge, and desired him to go to a certain Person of Honour in Eng­land, and ask his advice, whether I might supercede the Warrant by putting in Bayl, and carry the Supercedeas in my pocket: Mr. Colledge told me he would go to this per­son of Honour, for he would do nothing of his own head; and he bid me come to him the next day. My Lord, I came to Mr. Colledge the very next day, and I met him at his House, and I asked him what was the result, and what advice he had from that person of Quality; he bid me be of good chear, that the Parliament would be, and sit at Oxford soon; that I should not value the King a pin; for, said he, the King is in a worse condition than you or I; for you shall see, said he, he shall be called to an ac­count for all his Actions.

Who should?

The King; for all the world may see, says he, that he does resolve to bring in Arbitrary Power and Popery: And, said he, unless he will let the Parlia­ment sit at Oxford, since he hath called them together, and put the people to charges in chusing of them, and them in coming down, we will seize him at Oxford, and bring him to the Block, as we did the Logger-head his Father. The Parliament shall sit at Guildhall, and adjust the Grievances of the Subject, and of the Nation. And you shall see, said he, that no King of his Race shall ever reign in England after him.

Where was this he said so?

At his own House I met him; and he and I did walk all along from his own House, over the Bridge that is against Bridewel, and so went all along till we came to the Hercules-Pillars, and we had some discourse there; we went up one pair of stairs and called for Beef; and all this discourse was in that very place of the Her­cules-Pillars.

Do you know any thing of any Arms he had, and for what?

But, Sir, said I to Mr. Colledge, how can this be done, 'tis a thing impos­sible. You pretend, you say, to the Duke of Monmouth, that he is a fine Prince, and stands up for the Protestant Interest: Alas, said he, we make an Idol of him to adumbrate our Actions, for fear we should be discovered. Do you think the wise people of England shall ever make a Bastard upon Record King of England: No, said he, for though we praise his Actions, yet we cannot endure him, because he is a­gainst his own Father. But, said he, further, unless the King do expel from his Coun­cil the Earl of Clarindon, cunning Lory Hide, the Earl of Hallifax, that great Turn-coat Rogue, that was before so much against the Papists, a Rascal, we shall see him hang'd, and all the Tory Counsellors; except the King do it, we will make England too hot for him.

Who did I say this to, to you?

Yes, to me.

Pray, how could this be possible?

Yes, you knew my condition; and I intimated to you at that time, That I was as much for Treason and Villany as you: But then said I to him, how can this be done? Here you have neither Officers, nor men of experience, nor men of knowledge; nor you have no Ammunition, Sea-port Towns, nor Ships. And besides, the King, said I, hath a great party in the Land, and the Duke of York likewise; and for all the men of Estates, and the ancient Gentlemen, they will not be disturbed, and to quit their Ease for a civil War. Oh, says he, you are mistaken, for we have in the City 1500 Barrels of Powder, and we have 100000 men ready at an hours warning; and we have ordered every thing in a due method against the sitting of the Parliament at Oxford; and you shall see England the most glorious Nation in the World, when we have cut off that beastly Fellow Rowley; and speak­ing of the King, he said, He came of the Race of Buggerers, for his Grandfather, King James, buggered the old Duke of Buckingham; and he called him Captain, and sometimes the King, and sometimes Rowley.

This was pure Protestant discourse upon my word.

Then he railed at Judge Pemberton; and, said he, let him try Fitz-Harris if he dare; I shall see him go to Tyburn for it, I hope, a Turn-coat Rogue. He was for the Plot whilst he was a puisne Judge, but now he is Chief Justice, he is the greatest Rogue in the world. He is like one of the Pensioners in the long Parliament. So one day I went along with Mrs. Fitz-Harris, and Mr. Ivy, and he sent a man to me, and desired me to come to the Hog in Armor; thither we came, and met him, and went to his Lodgings, and there we dined. Then they made some persons of Ho­nour believe, that I was a person so and so qualified, and was brim full of the Plot; and he would put me upon charging the King with the firing of London, and the mur­der of Sir Edmondbury Godfrey, and said he, such and such Lords shall live and die by you; and besides, said he, you need not fear, England shall espouse your Cause. But, said I, the Law is like the Spiders Web, that catches the little Flies, but the great Flies run through the Net, and make their escape; so 'tis with these Lords, they put you and me on the danger of acting; and when they get off by interest, a Jury of Twelve men will hang us by the Neck, and so I should perish, whilst others triumphed, and only be a martyr for the Phanaticks. So in discourse we were talking of the Libel of Fitz-Harris; The Devil take me, said he, every individual word is as true as God is in Heaven; and said he, if you do not joyn with Fitz-Harris in his Evidence, and charge the King home, you are the basest fellow in the world, for he makes you slaves and beggars, and would make all the world so; and 'tis a kind of charity to charge him home, that we may be rid of such a Tyrant.

Mr. Colledge, if you will ask him any Questions, you may.

Certainly, my Lord, the thing speaks it; he is not to be talked withal; Is it probable I should talk to an Irish-man that does not understand sense?

'Tis better to be an honest Irish-man than an English Rogue.

He does it but to put you into a heat, don't be passionate with him.

No, I am not, I thank God he hath not put me into an heat.

Where was this discourse about superceding your Warrant?

At London.

When?

It was before the Parliament sate at Oxon.

How long?

I can't tell positively to an hour or a day.

What month as near as you can?

It was in the month of March.

Had you ever seen me before?

Can you deny that?

I ask you whether you have or no?

Yes, I have seen you in the Coffee-Houses bawling against the Govern­ment.

Were you an intimate acquaintance of his before March last?

No intimate acquaintance.

Then this is the first time you discoursed with me.

Oh, no, my Lord. One and I fell out at the Queens-Head Tavern at Temple-Bar, and he set me upon the business, and John Macnamarra and others, and truly I did the business for him: For we fell out, and did box, and our Swords were ta­ken from us, and I went to John Macnamarra, and told him, yonder is such a man at such a place, now you may seize upon him.

What man was that?

One Richard Ponre.

He belonged to my Lord Tyrone, I think, there were Warrants to take him. Do you say I set you upon that?

Yes, you were with me the night before, and Captain Browne, and they gave us a Signal, a blue Ribband to distinguish that we were Protestants from the Bishops men.

When were you to make use of it?

When the King was seized.

Well, go on, have you any more?

But, my Lord, further, after he came from Oxon. I met him, and said I, Where are now all your cracks and brags? now you see the King hath made a fool of you; now you know not what you would have done. Says he, what would you have us do? We have not done with him yet: For, said he, no servant, no man living did know whether he would Dissolve the Parliament that day. I was that very nick of time at the Lobby of the Lords-House, and there was a man came in with a Gown under his arm, and every one looked upon him to be a Taylor, and no body did suspect, no, not his intimatest Friends, except it were Fitz-Gerald, that he would Dissolve the Parliament that day; but presently he puts on his Robes, and sends away for the House of Commons; and when he had Dissolved them, before ever the House could get down, he took Coach and went away, otherwise the Parliament had been too hard for him; for there was never a Parliament-man but had divers armed men to wait on him, and I had my Blunderbuss and my man to wait upon me. But well, said he, there is a God above will rule all.

Call Mr. Turbervile.

Hold, Sir, I desire to ask him some questions. You say the first time that I saw you, you had this discourse with me.

Do not use Tautologies, 'tis not the first time I have been examined, I know how to speak as well as you.

Answer my Question, Sir.

You know it was after I had made Affidavit before the Recorder of Lon­don, a copy of which was carried to that Noble-man; And you came from him, and returned me his thanks, and told me it was the best service I could do him. I would not trouble the Court with circumstantial things; and you cold me I should be gratified not only in my own property, but a reward for me and my heirs for ever.

For what?

I made Affidavit before the Recorder of London.

About what?

Concerning one Fitz-Gerald.

Is it to this matter?

No, nothing at all.

Let him ask any questions, what he will.

I ask when it was the first time you were acquainted with me so much, as to know me well?

As to the first time of intimacy, here is Macnamarra will take his corporal Oath that I was as well acquainted with him as any one in the World.

Pray answer me, Sir; When was the first time I talked to you?

The first intimate acquaintance we had, was when you put me upon the design about Fitz-Gerald.

Pray Sir, you go too fast already, as you are still gallopping; where was this discourse about his Majesty?

I told you before.

What was it?

I went to you after the Affidavit was made, and told you there was a Warrant out after me, and desired you to go to That Noble-man, and desire his advice what I might do, or whether I might supersede the Warrant. You told me you could do nothing without advice, and you would go and advise with That Noble-man.

My Lord, here is Mr. Turbervile come in, they will over-hear one another, pray let me have fair play for my life. (whereupon Turbervile withdrew.)

Can't you answer him? When was the first time you came acquainted with him?

When was the first discourse you had with him?

In April last.

You say it was before the Sitting of the Parliament, and that was in March.

I meant in March.

So indeed you said at first.

He never did say the day of the Month, nor the Month neither.

How long was it before the Sitting of the Parliament?

Mr. Jones, truely I do not remember precisely how long it was before the sitting of the Parliament, but I am sure it was before.

I did take it that he said it was before the sitting of the Parlia­ment, and now he says, in the month of March. Pray at that time he talked to you, did not he tell you of the sitting of the Parliament, and that they would stand by you.

He hath said it already, you need not direct him, Sir George, he goes fast e­nough. But you say, Sir, the first time I ever was acquainted with you was in March, then Gentlemen consider whether it be probable that at that time I should discourse to him after this manner.

No, I will tell you what he says, He said the first time he was inti­mately acquainted with you, was in March, he said he had before seen you in Coffee-Houses, and he is sure it was before the sitting of the Parliament; for he tells you the discourse you had, and by that discourse it appears, it related to a Parliament that was afterwards to sit. And then, to give you a more particular circumstance, he says that you put him upon the making of the Affidavit about Fitz-Gerald, and so you came acquainted.

Ask Mr. Attorney. My Lord, that day he was taken and carried to Whitehall before the Secretary of State; He said, I do not know who it should be that should accuse me, I believe it is Ivy; as for Haynes, he was taken t'other day, he was an honest man.

You say I desired you to make an Affidavit, was it after that or before I had that discourse with you?

It was after. For I came and desired you to go to such a person of Qua­lity, and you went to him and advised with him; and then the next morning such dis­course as I told your Lordship and the whole Court of, he told me.

Did I speak these Treasonable words after the Affidavit made?

You said I must make such an Affidavit concerning Fitz-Gerald.

But was this Treasonable discourse before you made the Affidavit, or after?

After the Affidavit made you told me this: when I came to his House, and from thence we went to the Hercules-Pillars.

Will you ask him any more Questions, Mr. Colledge?

Did you ever speak with me in your life before Macnamarra did call me out of the Coffe-House to go along with you, where you would discover a Design against my Lord Shaftsbury's Life?

I told you I never had any intimate acquaintance with you in my life be­fore, nor did I ever speak with you before.

When was that discourse, I ask you once again?

After the Affidavit made.

That night?

Within a week or thereabouts after the Affidavit made.

Call Mr. Edward Turbervile. But Mr. Haynes, I would ask you one Question, Did he deliver you any Ribband as a mark of distinction.

Yes, here it is.

Pray Mr. Turbervile will you tell my Lord and the Jury what Dis­course you had with Mr. Colledge, and where, and when.

When the Parliament sat at Oxon. about the middle of the week, I cant be positive in the day, but I think it was in the middle of the week I dined with Mr. Colledge, Captain Brown and Don Lewes Clerk of Derby-House, at the Chequer Inn. After Dinner Don Lewes went out about his own business, and Captain Brown went to sleep; Mr. Colledge and I fell talking of the Times, and I was observing, I thought the Parliament was not a long lived Parliament. Said he, there is no good to be ex­pected from the King; for he and all his Family are Papists, and have ever been such, you know it, Sir.

Nay don't appeal to him.

Said I, the King will offer some thing or other by way of surprize to the Parliament, Said he, I would he would begin; but if he do not, we will begin with him and seize him; for there are several brave Fellows about this Town that will secure him till we have those terms that we expect from him.

Where was this?

At the Chequer Inn in Oxon.

What said he further?

He said he had got a Case of Pistols, and a very good Sword, and a Vel­vet Cap; and I can't be positive he had Armour on, but I believe he had.

Did he tell you he came down for that purpose to seize the King?

Yes, and he gave me a piece of blew Ribband to put upon my Hat, he had a great quantity of it.

What was that for?

To be a distinction if there should be any disturbance when the thing should be done.

What thing done?

I knew nothing but of your telling me of it.

Where was this?

At the Chequer Inn in Oxon. M. Colledge. You talk much and can't remember all you say.

What did he discourse to you about Arms and an Horse.

I told him I had never an Horse, and nothing but a Case of Pistols; he bid me I should not trouble my self, for he would get me an Horse.

What to do?

To carry on your design, I know not what it was, but by your words.

Tell what he said of it at the Chequer Inn.

He said there was a Design to seize the King.

Did he desire you to be one of them.

He did desire me to be ready to assist.

And how much of that Ribband had he, pray?

A very great quantity, 40 or 50 Yards.

Pray Mr. Turbervile will you give your Evidence over again, and let Mr. Colledge attend to it.

When the Parliament sat at Oxon. about the middle of the week, I can­not be positive to a day; I believe it was either Wednesday or Thursday I dined with Mr. Colledge, Captain Brown, and Don Lewes, who was formerly Clerk of Derby-House. Don Lewes after dinner went out, and Capt. Browne laid him down on the bed, and Mr. Colledge and I fell a talking of the Times, and I told him, I thought this Parliament was no long-lived Parliament. Upon which Colledge told me the King and all his Family were Papists, and there was no good to be expected from him. Then I replyed, the King would perhaps surprize the Parliament, or use some stra­tagem to bring them to his terms. Said Mr. Colledge again, I would he would be­gin; but if he do not, we will secure him till he comes to those terms we would have from him; for here are several brave Fellows, and many more are coming down that will joyn with it.

Did he name any one?

No indeed, he did not; he himself had a case of Pistols, a Sword, and I believe he might have his Armour on.

Did I discourse who were to joyn with me?

No, Mr. Colledge, you did not name any body to me, but Captain Browne was with you.

Were you examined in my Lord Staffords Tryal?

Yes I was.

Was this Gentleman sworn to your Reputation there?

No, not to mine.

Pray how come we to talk of such things, what occasion was there that I should talk Treason of the King to you, was there any body besides us two there.

No, Capt. Browne was gone to sleep, and Lewes was gone out.

It was not at dinner that you talked so, Mr. Colledge, he says.

Had they been at dinner with us there?

Yes, and we had a Legg of boyled mutton to dinner.

Did you stay after dinner?

Yes, and I lay with you afterwards upon the bed.

I thought you had said Capt. Browne went to sleep there.

Yes, but he was gone too, when we laid down together.

God forgive you, I can say no more, I never spoke one word of any such discourse in my life.

Will you ask him any more Questions?

Mr. Turbervile, when did you give in this Information against me?

I gave it to the Grand Jury.

Not before?

Yes, I did.

When was it?

Truly I can't well tell, I believe it was a day or two before I came to Oxon.

Why did you make it then, and not before?

I'll tell you the occasion. Mr. Dugdale told me the Grand Jury of London would not find the Bill; I did admire at it extremely; for I thought every one that conversed with him might be an Evidence against him; he was always so very la­vish against the King and the Government. So then Colonel Warcupp came to me, and took my Depositions, and then I came for Oxford.

VVhat was the reason you did not discover this Treason before?

There was no reason for it, it was not necessary.

You were not agreed then.

There was no agreement in the case, there needs nothing of that I think; but I am not obliged to give you an account of it.

God forgive you, Mr. Turbervile.

And you too, Mr. Colledge.

Then call Sir VVilliam Jennings.

Mr. Attorney, if you please, till he comes, I will acquaint my Lord here is a Gentleman that hath not yet been taken notice of, one Mr. Masters, that is pretty well known to Mr. Colledge; now he is a man, he must acknowledge, of an undoubted Reputation, and I desire he may give your Lordship and the Jury an account what he knows of the Prisoner; because he is so curious for English-men, we have brought him an English-man of a very good repute.

My Lord, I am charged with Treason in this Indictment; here are a great many things made use of that serve only to amuse the Jury, I can conjecture nothing else they are brought for; I desire to know whether the Pictures produced are part of the Treason.

Stay till the Evidence is given▪ and we will hear what you can say at large when you come to summ up your Defence.

Pray, my Lord, will you be pleased to hear this Gentleman. He will tell you what discourse he hath had with the Prisoner at the Bar.

Mr. Colledge and I have been acquainted for a great many years; and we have often discoursed. I have told him of his being so violent as he hath been several times. But a little before the Parliament at Oxon. about Christmass last, after the Parliament at VVestminster, at Mr. Charlton's Shop the Woollen-Draper in Paul's Church-yard, we were discoursing together about the Government, and he was justi­fying of the late long Parliaments Actions in 40; and he said, That Parliament was as good a Parliament as ever was chosen in the Nation. Said I, I wonder how you have [Page 49] the impudence to justify their Proceedings, that raised the Rebellion against the King, and cut off his Head. Said he, they did nothing but what they had just cause for, and the Parliament that sate last at VVestminster was of their opinion, and so you would have seen it.

What did he say of the Parliament since?

He said the Parliament that sate last at VVestminster was of the same opinion that that Parliament was.

Pray afterwards, what discourse had you about his Colonelship?

We were talking at Guild-Hall that day the Common-Council was, the 13th. of May, as near as I remember; so I came to him, How now, Colonel Col­ledge, said I, what do you make this bustle for? You mistook me, and said, Cousin, how long have you and I been Cousins? nay prithee, said I, 'tis not yet come to that, to own Kindred between us, I only called you Colonel in jest; Marry mock not, said he, I may be one in a little time.

Have you any thing to ask Mr. Masters? you know he is your old acquaintance, you know him well.

What is it that you know concerning Mr. Colledge at Oxford, Sir?

My Lord, the first time that I heard any thing of Mr. Col­ledge, was, there was some company looking upon a Picture, for I knew him not, nor never had any word of discourse with him in my life, any more then seeing him in a publick Coffee-House. But there was a Picture looking on by 7 or 8 or 10 people, I believe, more or less, and I coming and crowding in my Head amongst the rest, looked upon this Picture. After the crowd was over, Mr. Colledge takes a Picture out of his Pocket; and, said he, I will give you one of them, if you will. So he gives me a Picture; which Picture, if I could see, I could tell what it was; it was written Mac a top, and there were several Figures in it.

This is one of the same that I had of him, and I had not had it long in my custody, but meeting with Justice VVarcupp, I shewed it him, who bid me give it him, and so I did. The next thing I did see Mr. Colledge do, that was in the coffee-house, not the same day, but another time: I saw him bring in a parcel of blue Ribband which was wrought, and these words eight times wrought in it, twice wrought in every quarter of a yard, No Popery, no Slavery. I saw him [...]l to a member of Parliament, as I took him to be, a yard of that Ribband for 2 s. and truly I was thinking he would ask me to but some too, and I saw that Gentleman (I took him to be a Parliament-man) take this Ribband and tye it upon his Sword. As to the other thing I have to say of Mr. Col­ledge, that very day the Parliament was dissolved he had been in a quarrel, as he told me, with Fitz-Gerald, and I was standing in the School-House yard, and he comes directly to me without my speaking to him or any thing; but he comes and tells me Fitz-Gerald had spit in his face, and, said he, I spit in his face again; so we went to loggerheads toge­ther, [Page 50] I think that was the word, or Fisty-cuffs. So, said I, Mr. Colledge, your Nose bleeds; he takes his Handkerchief out of his Pocket and wipes his Nose, and said, I have lost the first Blood in the Cause, but it will not be long before more be lost.

Where was this?

In the School-house Yard at Oxon. I never discoursed with him afterwards till I met him in London in Fleet-street one Sunday in the afternoon, and I remember Captain Crescett was along with me. And when he came up to me, How now, said I, honest Joyner? Says he, you call me honest Joyner, some call me Rogue and Rascal, and I have been beating some of them; so that I believe they will be aware of it. So I told Captain Crescett I never met this man but he was always in a Quarrel.

Was it on a Sunday that I told you I had been beating of somebody?

You told me so, Captain Crescett was by.

I remember I met you, but I did not tell you I had been then beating any one. But pray, Sir William, when I met you after the Parliament was Dissolved, and Fitz-Gerald and I had quarrell'd, did I say, That I had lost the first blood in the Cause, but it would not be long e're more were lost. Sir William, you are a Gentleman; as for the other men, they don't care what they say, nor do I so much regard them; but you va­lue your Word and Honour. These were my words, and pray will you recollect your self before you be positive in the thing, whether I did not say, I have lost the first blood for the Parliament, (for it was upon my vindicating of the Commons, and Dr. Oates, whom Fitz-Gerald had abused; and upon that the Quarrel began; so I said, when you met me, and told me my Nose bled, I have lost the first blood for the Parliament) I wish it may be the last.

Mr. Colledge, If you please I will answer you as to that, I do assure you 'tis the first time that ever I came upon this occasion in my days, and I have decla­red it before, and do declare it now, I would rather have served the King in three En­gagements, then come in against you, or any man, upon such an occasion. But I de­clare to you, upon the whole memory of the truth, the words were as I spoke them at first, and no Parliament named or mentioned. And, my Lord, moreover, I will tell you, when I did tell this story, because Mr. Crescett that is here, is able to tell you whether I did not relate the words within half an hour, or a little time after. Now I never had a prejudice against you in my days, nor other concern, but having told Mr. Justice VVarcupp this story, I am brought hither to testifie it.

I am sorry you did not better observe and remember my words then.

I must needs say, I could not imagine what the words meant when they were spoken, nor do I understand them to this day; but soon after they were spo­ken, I related them to Justice VVarcupp, he being a Justice of Peace.

Gentlemen, we shall rest here, and conclude our Evidence for the King at present, to hear what the Prisoner says to it, only with my Lords leave I shall explain the words to you that are in the Indictment, and tell you what is meant [Page 51] by compassing and imagining the death of the King. The seizing the person of the King, is in Law a compassing and intending his death; and so it hath been adjudged in several cases, as in 1 Jacob, my Lord Cobham and my Lord Grey's case, and several other cases; and so you may fully apprehend what the Charge is, and may understand the words in the Indictment, That if you are not satisfied with the general words of compassing the Kings death, you may know, that the seizing his person extends to it

My Lord, we have done with our Evidence, now let him go on with his.

Now, Mr. Colledge, you may say what you will for your defence, and call your Witnesses that you have to produce.

My Lord, I have heard this Evidence that is against me, and I would desire your Lordship to resolve me some Questions upon it; I think the Indictment, is for Trea­sonable practices, for a Conspiracy; now I desire your Lordship will be pleased that I may know from you, and the Court, whether in all this Evidence given in proof against me, a Conspiracy is proved; or if any thing appears besides what they say I said?

For a conspiracy in you, if the Witnesses speak truth, there is a plain proof, and of the degrees of it: First of all, by your publishing Libels and Pictures to make the King odious and contemptible in the eyes of the people, and that you should be the Author of some of those Pictures, and they were found in your custody.

I conceive that is not proved.

If the Witnesses say true, it is proved.

They do not produce that, they do but say it.

Mr. Dugdale swears, that at Oxford here, you shew'd him the Picture, you sung the Song here, and expounded it at my Lord Lovelace's, and a great many of them are found in your custody. Then that you prepared Arms, that you shew'd Smith the Arms in your House, and having those Arms, you said you would go to Ox­ford, and if there should be a disturbance there, you would secure the King. And you did come to Oxford, where you hear what is said; for I observe, Stephen Dugdale and Edward Turbervile speak of what was done at Oxford. John Smith and Bryan Haynes speak of what you said at London before you went to Oxford, and after you came from Oxford. Now I say, if these Witnesses speak true, 'tis a strong Evidence against you, both upon the Statute of the 25 Edw. the 3d. and that of this King too. For my Brother Holloway told you true, That whereas the Imagining the death of the King is High Treason, by the 25 of Edw. the 3d. so a seizing of the King, and an endeavour to do that, is a constructive intention of the death of the King; for Kings are never Prisoners, but in order to their death. And therefore it hath been held in all times, that by the Statute of Edw. 3d. that was Treason; but then the Statute of this King, in the 13th. year of his Reign, is more strong; for there it says, If any man shall by any words, or malicious speaking, shew the imagination of his heart, that he hath any such intention, that is Treason too.

My Lord, the Foundation of this Indictment is said to be laid here in Oxford, as I suppose; pray, my Lord, here is only Mr. Dugdale and Turbervile that swear against [Page 52] me for what I should say in Oxon. all the rest speak to things said and done at London. Now, my Lord, I desire to know, whether they have proved any Treasonable Practices, Conspiracy or Design against the Government, I would feign know that, whether there be matter here to ground an Indictment upon; for the one says in one place, the other in the other, which may be distinct matters, and none of them swear Facts against me, but only Words.

Yes, providing Arms for your self and offering others Arms.

That I shall make this Answer to, I had only a case of Pistols and a Sword, which every Footman and Horseman had, that came from London, I think. But further my Lord, I would ask your Lordship, whether there ought not to be Witnessesdistinct, to swear words at one and the same time.

No, no, the Resolution of the Judges in my Lord Staffords case is contrary.

Look you, it hath been often resolved, that if there be one Witness that proves one Fact which is an Evidence of Treason, and another proves another Fact, that is an Evidence of the same Treason, though they be but single Witnes­ses to several Facts. yet they are two Witnesses to an Indictment of Treason; that hath been often publickly resolved, particularly in the case of my Lord Stafford, men­tioned by my Brother. And I'le tell you my Opinion further, if there be one Wit­ness that proves here what you said at Oxford, and another that proves what was said in London, if they be in order to the same Treason, it is sufficient; for if you do conspire to commit such a Treason in London, and you come with such an imagination in your Heart to Oxford to compleat this Treason, tho your Design was not first formed there, I think 'tis enough to maintain an Indictment of Treason, and they are two good Witnesses, though but one speak to what was done at Oxford, but I must tell you, in your case there are two full Witnesses to that which was done at Oxford, besides Sir William Jennings.

That which Sir William Jennings speaks of, I told you before what it was I said, It was the first Blood that was shed for the Parliament.

The Parliament was dissolved before that which Sir William Jen­nings speaks of, therefore you could not say it was to defend the Parliament.

Mr. Dugdale did say that I spake such and such words in the Barbers Shop in the Angel-Inne; there I was indeed at the time that he does speak of, and the Barber was by, I do think, indeed it were convenient to have him here; but I knew not where he would charge me, or what it was he would charge me with, because I never said any thing in my life that was like Treason.

Mr. Colledge, call any Witnesses you will.

But, my Lord, pray let me ask you one Question more; You take these words distinct from any matter of Fact don't you?

No, complicated with the Fact, which was the Overt-Act, the coming to Oxon. with Pistols, to make one if there had been any disturbance, and to seize the King.

Then, my Lord, I would ask you, whether, any Act of Treason done at London, shall be given in Evidence to prove the Treason for which I am now indicted, and which was given in Evidence before the Grand Jury, upon which the Tryal was there grounded.

Any Act of Treason this is of the same kind. And I'le tell you, that was resolved in Sir Henry Vanes case; those that gave you that paper understand it. But I speak now to your capacity, and to satisfie your Question. He was indicted for levying War against the King, he conspired in Westminster, the War was levyed in a­nother County; the Conspiracy upon the Tryal was proved in the County of Middle­sex, and the War in another place, and yet it was held sufficient to maintain the In­dictment in the County of Middlesex.

There was a War really levyed, but God be thanked here is only bare words.

Yes, Actions too.

What Actions, my Lord?

Arming your self and coming to Oxford.

Well, I have told you my Opinion; My Brothers will speak theirs, if they think otherwise.

That is not your case neither, though I am of the same opinion with my Lord; for here are two Witnesses have proved plain matter of Fact at Oxford; the providing Arms your self, and encouraging others to take Arms—

They name no persons.

You will have my Opinion, and yet you will give me no leave to speak; I had patience to hear you: You are told there are two Witnesses, Turbervile and Dugdale, that prove your providing and having of Arms at Oxon. and perswading others to take Arms, particularly Turbervile, He told you he had no Arms, or but a case of Pistols, and he had no Horse; but you told him you would provide him an Horse. And then there are two other Witnesses, Smith and Bryan Haynes, they do not tell you of any thing done at Oxford, but they tell you what you said in their hearing of what you had done in Oxon. and so I think if the Witnesses are to be believed, there is a very full proof against you.

I am of the same Opinion truly, and I cannot find, but that there is proof enough by two Witnesses, Turbervile and Dugdale, of what was done at Oxford. They swear matter of Fact, not Words only, but Actions also.

No Fact, but that I had Pistols and a Sword, and that I should tell Mr. Tur­bervile I would provide him an Horse, which is still but Words.

But you shall hear anon for the full conviction of you and all others, the Statute of the 13th. of this King read to you, and you shall there see that such words are made Treason.

But I beseech your Lordship to tell me whether there must not be two Witnesses to the same words at the same time.

No, it was the Resolution of all the Judges in the case of my [Page 54] Lord Stafford in the presence of the Parliament, and the Parliament proceeded up­on it.

In the same Tryal where Mr. Colledge was a Witness.

All the whole House of Commons prayed Judgement upon my Lord Stafford, pursuant to that Resolution.

Come will you call any Witnesses?

My Lord, I do not question but to prove this one of the Hellishest Conspiracies that ever was upon the face of the Earth, and these the most notorious wicked men, an absolute design to destroy all the Protestants of England, that have had the courage to oppose the Popish Plot. In which no man of my condition hath done more then I have done. I was bred a Protestant, and continued so hitherto, and by the Grace of God I will dye so. If that they had known of these words that I should speak, and such a design that I should have before the Parliament sat at Oxon. and be with me in Oxon. when the Parliament sat, if they had been good Subjects, they ought to have had me apprehended. Turbervile came several times indeed, and dined with me. I did not bid him go out of doors, nor invited him thither; he was a man I had no disrespect for, nay he was a man I valued, thinking he had done the Nation service against the Papists; that this man should hear me speak such words against His Majesty, who was then in this Town, and know of such a dangerous design to attempt the seizing of his Person, or that I should discover a great party that were ready to do it, I think there is scarce any man of reason, but will say, if this were really done and spoken by me, nei­ther of them would or ought to have concealed it, but discover it; none of them has ever charged me with any such thing, they have been in my company since. I never had any correspondence with any of them but Dugdale, then pray consider how improbable it is, that I should talk of such things to Papists, Priests and Irish-men, who have broke their faith with their own party, that faith which they gave under the penalty of Damnation, men that have been concerned in Plots and Treasons, to murder and cut the Throats of Protestants, that I should be such a mad man to trust these people, when I could receive no manner of obligation from them, nor could give any trust to them, they having before broke either Faith; especially, considering I could lay no such Oaths and Obligations upon them, who was a Protestant; then 'tis the greatest non sense, to believe that I would say these things before persons whom I could never hope would conceal my Treasons, having discovered their own. If they speak truth concerning the general Popish Plot, that could be no obligation upon me to trust them with another; and they cannot say, that they ever obliged me in any one respect. My Lord, I thank God I have had some acquain­tance in the world, and have been concerned with some persons of Honour, Noblemen and Parliament men, that I know are as good Subjects as any His Majesty has; these never found me a Fool, nor a Rascal, so great a Knave, as to have any such thoughts in my heart, nor so great a mad-man, or so foolish, as to go to discover them to Papists, Priests, and Irish-men, to men of their condition, that were ready to starve for Bread. As for Haynes and Smith, that run so fast through all their Evidence, the first time that ever I set my eyes on Haynes, was in the Coffee-House that he speaks of; Macnamarra comes in, and [Page 55] desires me to go out with with him, and I should hear the greatest Discovery of a piece of Villany against my Lord of Shaftsbury's Life, that ever I heard many life. This Captain Brown, who is now dead, a man that I had not known but a month before (for I think it was in March last when this was) could testifie for me; For I came to him, Captain, said I, here is a Discovery offered to be made to me, of a Design to take away my Lord Shaftsbury's Life. Macnamarra asks me to go to the Hercules Pillars, I went along with him, and took Captain Brown with us. Afterwards he fell sick in April, and is now dead, so I lost a main Evidence in the case. He was the only man that was by at the time; God knows my Heart, I speak nothing but the truth, I took him with me, Haynes began to discover to us, that Fitz-Gerald had employed him to fetch over Mac­namarra, and if he would come in, and swear against my Lord of Shaftsbury, which was his design, it would not be long e're his Head were taken off, and he said, He had given in a Paper of High Treason against my Lord of Shaftsbury, I asked what it was, He told me, That my Lord should tell Fitz-Gerald that he had a design to bring this Kingdom to a Common Wealth, and to root out the Family of the Stuarts. This he said Fitz-Gerald had given in in a Paper under his own Hand; and I think he said, He had sworn it, and sent Haynes to fetch Macnamarra to swear agaist my Lord the same things too. I writ down all the Heads of the Discourse which Captain Brown heard as well as I. After he had said it, he desired us to conceal it. Sir, said I, You are a stranger to me, and these are great and strange things that you do tell us, Macnamarra and Browne and Ivy, and others were there, which (if they were honest men) they would come and testifie. I thought them honest men, and that they had none of those wicked designs in their Hearts, that now I find they have. So says Haynes, I do not know this man, meaning me; Macnamarra told him, I was an honest man, he might lay his Life in my hands. After he had spoken all this, he desired us to conceal it; Said he, I will not on­ly discover this, but a great deal more of their Rogueries that I know very well; Said I to him again, I will not conceal it, nor do you no wrong, for if this be true my Lord of Shaftsbury shall know it to night; for where there is a Design to take away a Peer of the Realm, I will not conceal it; but if it be false, and you have said more then comes to your share, recant it again, and we will take no notice of it, only say you are a Knave for speaking of it; he swore Dam him it was all true, that and a great deal more, which he said he knew, about seizing and destroying the Parliament at Oxon. a­bout an Army in the North that was to be raised about the time of the sitting of the Parliament at Oxon. of a French Army that was to land in Ireland at the same time, that the D. of York was to be at the Head of them, and the intention was, to destroy all the Protestants. Upon this, I was resolved, if I lived, to come along with the Parliament, and if there was any such Design, I was resolved to live and die with them, but I had no more then common Arms, a Sword and a case of Pistols, and my Cap was a Velvet Cap, and nothing else. My Lord, I had the Honour to be sent for, when the Parliament sat last at Westminster, the Sessions in October, it was an Honourable occasion, and I thank those worthy Gentlemen that sent me for the Honour of it, there I begun to be popular as to my Name, for from that time they began to call me the Protestant Joyner, because the [Page 56] Parliament had intrusted me. My Lord Grey was pleased to send his Footman for me to the Crown Tavern behind the Exchange, where there were several worthy Lords, Peers of the Realm, and one Hundred of the Commons, that had dined there that day, it was the day before they sat; after they had dined I came to them, and the Duke of Monmouth told me, They had heard a good Report of me, that I was an honest man, that understood Building, and they did confide in me to search under the Parliament House; they did not really know of any Design, but they would not be secure, there might be some tricks play'd them by the Papists, tho' we are not afraid of them, said the Duke, yet we think fit to employ you to search under the Houses, whether you can find any such practices. So accordingly my Lord, I did go, my Lord Lovelace was one of the Honou­rable Lords, and my Lord Herbert that went with me, and some of the Gentlemen of the House of Commons; and those worthy Protestant Lords were pleased to thank me for my Service, and did believe I was active and zealous to find out and discover the bottom of the Popish Plot, so far as it came legally in my way to do it. My Lord, upon this occasion, there was a great kindness from them to me, and I had upon all occasions testimonies of it; and this very man who now swears Treasons against me (which God Almighty knows is all false) did swear in his Affidavit before Sir George Treby the Recorder of London (I did never see the Affidavit, indeed I was over night at Sir George Treby's, but he was not then at leisure, but he drew it up next day, and swore it) that there was a Design to destroy the Parliament at Oxon. and there was not only his Oath for it, but it was the general belief, that some Evil was intended them. All men had cause to fear and to suspect, the Papists did bear them no good will; and making use of their own observa­tions, they were generally armed with a Pistol, or a Sword for themselves, in case they should be attck'd by the Papists. In order to this, I did come down with my Lord Howard, my Lord of Clare, my Lord of Huntington, and my Lord Pagett, those four worthy Protestant Lords; and it was two days after the Parliament was sat, that we came, and I went out of Town again with my Lord Lovelace, Sir Thomas Player and Sir Robert Clayton; and I am sure, they were all in so great a fear that London should be surprized and seized on by the Papists, but there was no mortal man that ever heard of the Kings being seized, or thought of it, till these men come and tell me, that I had such a Design, and came hither with that purpose; but my Lord, I declare as God is my Judge, I would not have it thought I speak it to save my life, were it as certainly a truth, as 'tis most wickedly a falshood, that I had had a design to seize the King, I know not of one man who was to stand by me, Parliament man, or other persons whatsoever; And how is it possible for me to attempt that, being a single person, with only a Sword and a case of Pistols, let any man judge. And I do declare, I know of no con­spiracy nor Design, against the King or Government, I never spoke one of the Treasonable Words in my life, that is laid against me, nor had ever any thoughts of any such thing. God that is my Eternal Judge knows, that what I speak is true.

Well, Mr. Colledge, will you call your Witnesses, for I must tell the Jury as I did at your request, concerning Mr. Attorney, that as nothing he said, so no­thing [Page 57] you say is to be believed upon your own Allegation; for then no man would ever be guilty, if his own Purgation by words were to be believed.

My Lord, I thank God, I know my own innocency, and hope to prove it. I have a Soul that must live to eternity, either in joy or misery, I act according to those principles, and I hope I have some assurance of my own Salvation when I dye: I would not call God to Witness to a lye, to save 1000 lives. My Lord, this is a villanous conspi­racy against me, and if it take place against me, it may go a great way, God knows how far. This is the 17th. or 18th. Sham Plot the Papists have made against the Protestants, to get over their own; but I hope, my Lord, God Almighty will never suffer it. If they can make me a Traytor, they will try it upon others, and so hope to sham off their own Treasons; but I say, I hope God Almighty will never suffer it. My Lord, I think the first Witness that swore against me was Mr. Dugdale; and I must call my Witnesses as I have them here, I know no person of them hardly, and this tht is done for my Defence was done abroad. My Lord, I have been kept close Prisoner in the Tower, and none of them suffered to come to me, whilst the Popish Lords have had the liberty and priviledge to talk with their friends. Here are VVitnesses I hope will prove that those are Suborned men, for Macnamarra did tell me presently after the Parliament broke up at Oxon. and whis­pered it to me in the Coffee-House; Said he, there is a design laid to make us retract our Evidence, and go over to Fitz-Gerald. Said I, I suppose they have been at that sport a great while. Ah, said he, they make large offers. Said I, by whom? Said he, Colonel Warcupp hath been at me, and he tells me—

Macnamarra is not produced against you as a Witness at all.

No, but he told me this, that there was such a design; and, said he, I will get you, and some other honest men; and he desired me to be by when he had something more to tell which would do his business for him; but the next news I heard of him was, he was put into Newgate.

Call your Witnesses, Mr. Colledge, and prove what you can.

Call Mr. Hickman.

My Lord, I desire he may observe the same rule he desired about our Witnesses, that he may call but one at a time.

Yes, yes, I will call them one by one.

Are not your Witnesses together? send to them.

My Lord, I don't know, I have not seen one since I come. This is not the first time, my Lord, the Papists have designed to take away my life, though it is the first time they go to take it away by a Law.

I know not of one Papist that is a Witness against you.

There is never a man of them, except Sir William Jennings, but what was a Papists.

What say you to Mr. Masters?

Mr. Masters says nothing material, it was only a jocose discourse.

It was very pleasant discourse upon my word; you were as merry as when you were singing of the Rary Shew.

What, do you make mirth of the blackest Tragedy that ever was; that horrid Rebellion, and the Murther of the late King.

I never justified that Parliament in any such thing that they did contrary to Law.

He swears it.

Hickman does not appear, call another.

Call William Shewin, (who appeared.)

Look you here, Friend, you are not to be sworn; but when you speak in a Court of Justice, and in a course of Justice, you must speak as in the presence of God, and only speak what is true.

I would not have any body speak any thing for me but what is truth.

Now ask him what you will.

I don't know the Gentleman. But, pray, Sir, will you tell what you know of these Witnesses.

Name any of them that I know, pray, Sir, and I'll tell you.

Do you know Bryan Haynes?

I know there is such a man, but I have nothing to say to him.

Do you know Turbervile?

Yes.

Pray tell what you know of him.

My Lord, I was in Turbervile's company on Thursday night last at the Golden Posts at Charing-Cross, and there I heard him say, that if I were at Oxford I should hear strange things against Colledge, and he would lay ten to one that Mr. Be­thel and Mr. Wilmore should be hanged at Christmass, and he would lead him by the Gold-chain along Fleetstreet, and down with his Breeches in the middle of the Coffee-House, with a Band about his neck and a Cloak.

Did he say all these things against Mr. Sheriff Bethel, I assure you he is a bold man.

What do you know of Mr. Smith?

I know him by sight, but I have nothing in particular to say con­cerning him. I have something to say to Macnamarra, Sir, if he were here.

Do you know any thing of this conspiracy in general?

What, of your conspiracy?

I know that they did lay who should be Hang'd at Candlemass, who at Christmass, and who at several other times.

What did you hear Turbervile say?

Those words I spake before about Sheriff Bethel, and about the Am­sterdam Coffee-House.

Did they say what time I should be Hang'd? for the Discourse 'rose a­bout me.

One told me that there was one that did design to be returned upon this Jury, that was resolved to hang him right or wrong.

My, Lord, I did hear there was such a one, and I left him out of the Jury.

For Mr. Sheriffs Honour we must take notice of what he hath said. He says he heare of a man that spoke something of that nature, and therefore he left him out of the Jury.

Now 'tis possible these Witnesses were at the same sport.

Was Mr. Peacock, Mrs. Fitz Harris Maids Father, or she here, either of them Witnesses against you?

No, they were not, Sir?

They did swear against me at the finding of the Bill.

We have only called these Witnesses, if you can say any thing against them, do.

Call Henry Hickman, (who appeared.)

Where do you live, Sir?

At Holborn-Bridge.

What Trade are you?

A Cabinet-maker.

What do you ask him?

Do you know Haynes?

Yes, very well, because he used to come to my House to a Popish Wi­dow that was a Lodger in my House where I live now; and this person was a Prisoner at Haynes's when he was a Prisoner in the Fleet. I always had a suspicion he was a Priest, not that I could accuse him really of any thing; but he several times using to come to my House, I thought so of him, and discoursing with my Landlady.

Your Tenant you mean?

Yes, my Tenant. I asked her what this Fellow was; said she, he is a very dangerous Fellow, though he is a Papist, and I am one my self, yet he is a dan­gerous person, and he does not much care what he swears against any one.

This your Tenant told you, what do you know your self?

Another time he came to speak with my Tenant Mrs. Scot, who is now gone into Ireland; when he came to the House, he asked me, is Mrs. Scot with­in? Yes, said I, Mr. Haynes, she is above; and up he goes, and there they locked the door, and plucked out the Key; so I slipt off my Shooes, for I thought there might be more danger from such people than I could discover any other way. So I went up stairs, and stood at the door and hearkened, hearing my Landlady talk something to him, he wraps out a great Oath. God dam me▪ said he, I care not what I swear, nor who I swear against; for 'tis my Trade to get money by swearing. Whereupon, my Lord, I came down as fast as I could, and a little after I saw him go out, and as soon as my Landlady came down, said I, Mrs. Scot, I desire you would provide your self as soon as you can; I would be civil to you, and I would not put you to a non-pluss, because your Goods by the Law will be seized for not departing according to the Kings Procla­mation. So a while ago, since this business of Haynes's swearing against my Lord of [Page 60] Shaftsbury, I bethought my self of some other businesses I had heard. To find out the Knavery, I went to the Fleet, where he hath a very ill character, as well amongst the Papists as the Protestants. Whereupon I asked one Fellow, that was a kind of a Por­ter, if he knew any thing of him? Said he, Go you to such an one—

We must not permit this for example sake, to tell what others said.

Nothing is Evidence but what you know of your own knowledge; you must not tell what others said.

This I do say, I heard him say; and there are those that can produce a Letter—

Bring those people, but you must speak nothing but upon your own knowledge.

I was at the Chamber-door, and looked in at the Key-hole, and he sat down at the Window.

How long ago was it, pray?

A year and an half.

You are an Eves-dropper, I perceive.

I did not know what danger he might bring men into, because he was a Papist. I have taken an Oath to be true to the King, and I will as long as I live. For this Gentleman, I never beheld him, till last night, in all my days; though he lived by me, I never saw him.

Well, call the next.

I never saw this Gentleman; but you see what Haynes hath declared.

This man says he did say so.

And, for ought I perceive, he does accordingly.

Mrs. Oliver, stand up. What do you ask her?

Do you know Haynes, pray; Bryan Haynes.?

Yes.

Pray tell the Court what you know of him.

I know him very well.

What do you know of him?

He writ a Letter in my Fathers name, unknown to my Father.

Did you see him write it?

I saw him write it.

Read it. By whom is it subscribed?

By no body.

Why, how is it written in your Fathers name, when it is not subscribed at all?

He writ it, as from my Father.

Whether did he bring it?

He sent it into the Countrey.

Can you write and read, Mistress.

Yes.

Who did he send it by?

The Carrier.

When was it dated?

In 77.

Read the Letter. (Which was done.)

Reads.

What is all this to the purpose, unless your Father were here to prove it was done without his knowledge.

My Father did not write it.

Was your Father in the Fleet then?

Yes, my Lord, he was a Prisoner then.

Mrs. Oliver, Do you know any thing more of him?

I have known him a great while, I know him to be a very ill man.

Must she tell you all she knows.

Did you ever know him forswear himself.

No, I do not know that.

Come, call another; this is nothing to the purpose.

Call Mrs. Hall: (who appeared.) Pray, do you know Mr. Bryan Haynes.

Yes, if I see him I know him very well.

What do you know of him.

He lodged at my House, and came there the day before Fitz-Harris was Tryed, and there was a great discourse about his Tryal, and I was enquiring of him, and I told him I must expose my ignorance, I did not know what it was he was tried for: And, said he, if you please to sit down, I will tell you: Madam Portsmouth came to him, and went upon her knees, and begg'd of him, if he had any kindness for his Ma­jesty, that he would now shew it at this juncture; and she told him she had heard he had formerly acquaintance with one Mr. Everard abroad, and therefore desired him to go now and renew it, and endeavour to get him over, and, if he could possibly, to get over some others to make a Presbyterian Plot of it. This is true, I very well know it: As for this Gentleman, I never saw his face before; but those were the words I am sure.

What were the words?

That they might make a Presbyterian Plot of it.

Did he say so?

He said that the Dutchess of Portsmouth did so.

What a story is this?

Did not he s [...]y that the Dutchess of Portsmouth employed him too?

No, this was about Fitz-harris.

VVhat do you know more about Haynes?

One night he had been about some business for me in Law with one Mr. Woodward an Attorney at Law, and when he returned I was busie in the Kitchen with my Maid about the House, and he came up to me; Madam, said he, this night I had a message from the King; a Justice of Peace met me, and brought me word that the King had sent into Ireland to enquire into the Loyalty of my Family, and he hath heard that my Father was a Loyal Subject, but he understood strange things of me; but if I would come in, he would grant me my Pardon. I told him, said he, I did not value his Majesties Pardon a pin, for I had done nothing that might make me stand in need of it; but I would do any thing that might tend to the preserva­tion of his Majesties Person or Honour; but to do such base things as are beneath a [Page 62] man, I will never do it; and he wisper'd me in the ear as the accusing of several persons;) and since, he sent me a Letter by his Mother in Law, Mrs. Wingfield, that I should not believe it, if I heard he should accuse any body; but I might be confident he had not, nor would not accuse any body.

Was he to swear against the Protestants?

I did not enquire any questions; but he said, such base things he would never do, as the accusing of several persons.

Pray Mistress, did you believe him when he told you he was so honest a man?

How do you mean, Sir?

When he said he would not do those base things, did you believe him?

I never saw his face before he came there to lodge; but I saw him to be a man that made little conscience of what he said or swore.

Did not you find him a bragging man?

I had little discourse, but what he said of himself. But there is one thing more about an Intelligence: When Thompson had written something in his In­telligence concerning Bryan Haynes, he said he would write an Answer to it; and ac­cordingly he reads it to us: he said, he was going that evening to get it put into one of the Intelligences: the words were to this purpose. ‘Whereas one Nathaniel Thompson had falsely and maliciously accused one Bryan Haynes for speaking Trea­sonable words; he the said Bryan Haynes doth declare, that he challenges any man to charge him with it: but he owned he had an hand, or was employed to put the Plot upon the dissenting Protestants.’

Did he publish that in the Intelligence?

I never read it published; but he had writ it, and read it to us seve­ral times.

Do you go to Church, Mistress?

I hope I do.

To what Church?

Call Mary Richards, Mrs. Halls maid.

What will you ask her?

Do you know Bryan Haynes, pray.

Yes, he lodged there where I lived.

What do you know of him?

I know he writ that in the Intelligence my Mistress spoke of; Thompson in his Intelligence, accusing him of having spoken Treason, he read what he said he would put into the Intelligence: That he never spake one word of Treason, and he writ it for his own Vindication; that whereas Nathaniel Thompson, in his Intelli­gence of the 18th. of June, had maliciously accused one Bryan Haynes of Treasonable words; there was no such thing.

And that was to vindicate him, that he never did speak any Treasonable words?

Yes.

Will you ask her any thing else?

I cannot tell what she says.

She says, he writ something that was in answer to Thompsons Intelligence, to vindicate himself, that he never did speak any Treasonable words.

But did you hear him say any thing of these words, that he was employed in a Plot against the Protestants?

I read that, in what he writ to put in the Intellgence, that he challenged any one to appear, and charge him with Treason; but, said he, I own that I was em­ployed, or had an hand, in putting the Plot upon the dissenting Protestants: and he telling my Mistress he had a message from the King, offering him his Pardon; I asked him why he did not accept the Kings Pardon. Alass, said he, you do not understand what I was to do for it; I was to do such base things so beneath a man, that I will never do them: I had Five Hundred pounds offered me, besides the Kings Pardon, to do such base things as are beneath a man to do.

What were the base things he said he was to do, and would not do?

I cannot tell, he did not say to me what they were.

When was this?

It was a week before he was taken.

That is two months ago.

It was since the Parliament sat at Oxford: But what was that he was em­ployed to do, did he say?

Why, he said in his Answer to the Intelligence, he was one that had an hand to put the Plot upon the dissenting Protestants.

Call Mrs. Wingfield;

What is your Christian Name?

Mary.

What do you ask her?

Do you know this Bryan Haynes, pray?

Yes, very well.

What do you know of him?

I know nothing of him, but he is an honest man; he married my Daughter, and always carried himself like a Gentleman, he scorns the thing that is unhandsome, and never did any thing that is unhandsome in my life.

Pray, how came you by this Witness? Have you any more of them?

I never saw her before, but I believe she hath said something else in another place. Did you ever say the contrary, pray?

No body can say so; and I had done the Gentleman a great deal of wrong if I had.

Call Mr. Whaley,

What is your Name, Sir?

John Whaley.

Did you know Bryan Haynes?

Where do you dwell, Sir?

At the Hermitage, beyond the Tower.

I don't know you, Sir; but what do you know of him?

I never saw you, Sir, till to day; but that which I think I am called for is this; though it was upon Sunday that I receiv'd this same Subpoena to come down hither: but about six years ago, Bryan Haynes was a prisoner in the Kings Bench, and he came down to the Cellar which I had taken of the Marshal to sell Drink in; and coming down to drink in one of the Rooms of the Cellar that belong to me, he took away a tankard, and went up with it. One of the men followed him up; so I went to the Marshal to complain, and told him of it: and the Marshal took him from the Masters side, and put him into the common side. That is all I know of him any way, direct­ly or indirectly.

Why did you not indict him of it?

I acquainted the next Justice of the Peace, who was the Marshal; and he put him from the Masters side into the common side.

He was no good Justice of the Peace in the mean time.

Call Mr. John Lun, (who appeared.) Do you know Bryan Haynes, Mr. Lun?

I have seen him twice: the first time I ever saw him was, I went into the Derby-Ale-House, to enquire for one Miclethwayte, a Kinsman of mine, and there this Bryan Haynes was in a little Room next the Ditch, near the Door that goes out there, as if he were asleep, and he roused himself up; and, as I was walking there, Sir, said he, will you take part of a Tankard with me: (That was his expres­sion.) With that, said I, I do not care if I do. And the first thing he began was the Kings Health, then the Queens, then the Duke of Yorks; then he fell very foul against the Grand Jury, because they had not found the Bill against Colledge, who is a Gentleman that I never saw before in my life but once, as I know of: and he said, my Lord Shaftsbury was a little Toad, but he would do his business very suddenly. Then he raised upon the Parliament, and said they were a Company of Rogues, they would giue the King no mony, but he would help him to mony enough out of the Phanaticks Estates. And he said, they would damn their Souls to the Devil before the Catholick cause should sink.

When was this?

It was three or four days after the Bill was brought in ignoramus by the Grand Jury.

Was he alone?

Yes, he was.

Is that all you have to say?

One thing more, my Lord. On monday last I was at Uxbridge, and a Gentleman sent his man on purpose to let me know I must go to Colebrook, and stay till they came thither. When I came there, I met Bryan Haynes at the Crown Kitchin-window, and he was stirring a Glass of Brandy, and sweetning it with Sugar. Said he, Sir, will you drink? Here is the Kings Health to you: So I drank, and I asked him how he did? Do you know me, Sir, said he. Yes, said I, I drank with you once. Says he, you have a good memory. So then a pint of Sack was called for, and after that another, and then came down Mrs. Peacock; and being very fine, [Page 65] all in her flower'd Silks, I asked what Gentlewoman that was? Said he, it is Mrs. Fitz-Harris. No, says I, it is not; they say she is gone. But, said he, it is her maid; and Sheriff Bethel is to marry her. As I have a Soul to save, I tell you nothing but what is truth. Thereupon said I, Sheriff Bethel is able to maintain her; he hath a good Estate. But, said he, it shall be the Kings e're long.

So that here is a plain design against all the eminent Protestants.

So with that, my Lord, if it please your Honour, I clapped my Groat down at the Bar, and went out of the Room. Nay, said he, let us have one Health more: and so he had his Tankard, and I had mine.

I humbly desire you to call for Mr. White, the Kings Messenger, who was by. I never saw the man before he was at Uxbridge; and asking Mr. White who he was, said he, His name is Lun, he was my prisoner two years.

What say you to the discourse he talks of at Fleet-bridge?

My Lord, I am upon my Oath, and I never saw him in my life before I saw him at Uxbridge.

I will take the Sacrament upon it, that what I have averred is true.

I suppose you are both known, and then your Credit will be left to the Jury.

There is Mr. White; pray, swear him. (which was done.)

Do you remember that Haynes asked who Mr. Lun was.

It was at the Bar of the Crown Inn at Uxbridge, and I being there, Mr. Lun came into the yard, and I knowing Mr. Lun asked him, How he did; He said he was glad to see me; and he called for a pint of Sack to make me drink. Haynes stood by, and he asked who he was and I told him; and we drank the Kings Health; but for any thing of those words that were spoken there, Sir, I did hear not one word of them, but he thanked me for my civility when I summoned him up to Court, and seeing Mr. Haynes by, he asked who he was?

And you, take it upon your Oath, that he asked you, who Haynes was?

Yes, I do.

Pray did you hear any discourse that time as if there had been a meeting upon Fleet-bridge.

Not one word of that?

I will take the Sacrament upon it, what I say is true.

We know you, Mr. Lun; we only ask questions about you, that the Jury may know you too, as well as we. We remember what once you swore about an Army.

I don't know him.

I don't come here to give Evidence of any thing but the truth; I was never upon my knees before the Parliament for any thing.

Nor I neither for much; but yet once you were, when you cryed, Scatter them good Lord.

Call Mr. Broadgate.

What is your Christian Name, Sir?

Jeremiah.

What do you ask him?

My Lord, I am a stranger to the Prisoner at the Bar; what I have to say, is concerning Mr. Turbervile, whom I met one day, and he asked me how I did? said he, I owe you a little Money, but I will pay you in a short time; but if you will go to drink a glass of Ale; no, said I, I am in haste, and do not care for going to drink; said he, you shall go; so away we went, and when we were sat, said he, When did you see Turbervile that was my Lord Powis's Butler; said he, he was a great Rogue to me, and when I stood up for the Nations good, he vilified my Evidence, and afterwards he came to me with Doctor [...] to beg my pardon; but I would not forgive him for the whole World: And speaking of the Kings Evidence, said he, the Kings Evidence are looked upon as nothing, as poor inconsiderable mean Fellows, and their Sallaries are lessened; and, said he, I have had the greatest proffers from Court, of preferment and rewards, if I would go from what I have said, and come upon the contrary; and he repeated it, Yes, upon the Faith of a man, and from the Highest: But, said he, I have a Soul and a Body; a Body for a time, but my Soul for eternity, and I cannot go from it. He went over it again; I might have what I would if I would go from what I have said, and come upon the contrary.

But he does not go from any thing of what he hath said.

Did he say what he was offered, and by whom?

He said he had very great offers from the Court, if he would disown the Plot, and go upon the contrary.

But he does not disown it.

Nay, he had a Soul to save, and could not go from it.

You talk of the contrary, and the contrary; what did he mean by that, what Plot should he disown?

The Popish Plot.

He does not disown it, nor never did disown it.

He would have made a Presbyterian Plot of it now; for he cannot say I am in the Popish Plot. Sir, do you know any thing more of him, or did he name me, or that he was to swear against me, or any Protestant?

No, only he said the Kings Evidence were vilified, and looked upon as poor inconsiderable Fellows: But it seemed, if he would go on the other side, he might have great preferments and rewards.

You make a wrong comment upon it, Mr. Colledge; it was if he would re­tract his Evidence, and disown the Plot.

I leave it to your Lordship and the Jury to make the sense of it.

I saw Mr. Turbervile since I come hither, and he asked, Are you come, Mr. Broadgate, to give Evidence against me? says I, I am come to declare the truth, and nothing but the truth.

You might have staid at home for any thing material that you do Evi­dence.

Call Mr. Zeal, (who appeared.)

What is your Christian Name, Sir?

John.

What would you ask him?

Where do you dwell, Sir?

In London.

Whereabouts?

In Fetter-Lane.

What Countrey-man are you, Sir?

Somersetshire.

Whereabouts in Somersetshire were you born?

By Sir VVilliam Portmans, within six miles of him.

What Trade, Sir?

No Trade.

Have you any Estate.

My Father has. I was bred to wait upon a person of Quality.

Do you know Turbervile, Sir?

Yes Sir, I do.

VVhat do you know of him?

Sir, I know nothing but what Mr. Ivy told me with his own mouth.

Do you know any thing of your own knowledge?

Has Mr. Turbervile told you any thing?

Not concerning Mr. Colledge, he has not.

Ivy was amongst them.

Yes, my Lord, he was the first that swore this Presbyterian Plot.

Can you say nothing of your own knowledge concerning Turbervile?

Nothing but what Mr. Ivy told me.

That is not of your own knowledge, and so it is nothing, for he is not produced in this cause.

Pray, my Lord, give me leave to call Mr. Ivy.

Do if you will. (He stood up.)

VVhat was that you heard Turbervile say of me, or of any Presbyterian Plot?

I never heard him say any thing concerning a Presbyterian Plot in my life.

Did not you tell Zeal of such a thing?

No, I never did.

Heark you. Mr. Ivy; you have sworn against me, have you not?

What I have sworn against you, or against any other person, is true.

VVhat have you sworn against me?

I am not bound to answer you.

Did not you call me out, with Macnamarra and Haynes, to the Hercules-Pillars?

Look you, Mr. Colledge, I will tell you something for Law; and to set you right; whatsoever Witnesses you call, you call them as Witnesses to testifie the truth for you; and if you ask them any questions, you must take what they have said as truth: therefore you must not think to ask him any question, and afterwards call ano­ther Witness to disprove your own Witness.

I ask him, was he the first time with us when I was called out of the Coffee-house to hear Haynes's Discovery?

Let him answer you if he will, but you must not afterwards go to disprove him?

If he were sworn against me, I would not ask him any questions, for he is among them.

Ask him what you will.

I desire not if he have sworn against me, for truly I can't expect a good Answer from him; but he was by when Haynes made his discovery.

Will you ask him any questions?

I ask whether he hath given any Evidence against me any where?

I am not bound to answer you.

Tell him if you have.

Yes, my Lord, I have.

Then I think he is no good Witness for me, when he hath sworn against me.

I have sworn against him and others. You know that you and I have had a great many Intrigues about this business in hand, and how we dealt with Mr. Haynes.

Look you, he does not call you for a Witness for him, you can testifie no­thing, and so you must be quiet.

Call Mr. Lewes. (Who appeared)

What is your Christian Name?

William.

Pray, Mr. Lewes, what do you know about Turbervile?

I know nothing at all, I assure you, of him that is ill.

Do you know any thing concerning any of the Evidence that hath been given here?

If I knew any thing relating to you, I would declare it; but I know something of Mr. Ivy; it has no relation to you, as I conceive, but against my Lord of Shaftsbury.

You would call Ivy for a Witness, and now you call one against him; and that I told you you must not do: but Ivy is not at all in this case.

Do you know any thing of the rest of them; Haynes, or Smith, or Dugdale?

No more than what Mr. Zeal told me was told him.

Do you know any thing of a Presbyterian Plot?

If the Court please to hear me, I will tell my knowledge of that; but I know nothing that affects him in the least, only that which concerns my Lord of Shaftsbury.

That is nothing to the purpose; call another.

There was not, to my knowledge, a word mentioned of your Name: I will do you all the justice I can; if I knew any thing concerning you, I would be sure to relate it.

I cannot say who can, or who cannot: I am a stranger to all of it.

Well, call your next Witness.

My Lord, There was a Petition presented to the Common Council of London, wherein they set out, that they were tamper'd withal about a Plot against the Protestants.

A Petition from whom?

I cannot tell from whom; from some of these witnesses.

Who preferred and signed it?

Mr. Turbervile was one. Pray call Dr. Oates.

The Prisoner calls upon you, Mr. Oates. What would you ask him, Mr. Colledge?

VVhere is the Petition to the Common Council, Doctor?

I have it here in my hand.

By whom was it presented?

It was given by Mr. Turbervile and Mr. Macnamarra, to Mr. VVilmoe.

Was you by when it was delivered?

Mr. VVilmore did deliver it to me before he was apprehended; for, be­ing to come down as a Witness, he was taken up, and committed to prison.

Whose hands are to it?

I know Mr. Turbervile's hand, he will not disown it.

It is subscribed Edward Turbervile, John Macnamarra.

Look you, Mr. Colledge; what word is there in all this Petition that, is a contradiction to what they have said now?

I did not hear it, my Lord.

They say they are constant Witnesses for the King, against the Papists; and they have been tempted to unsay what they have said: How does that contradict what they say now?

I suppose they say they have been tempted to turn the Plot upon other people, and to make a Plot upon the Protestants.

They have been tempted, they say, by the Papists, to unsay what they have said; but the Jury have heard it read, and will give it its due weight. Will you ask Mr. Oates any questions?

What do you know of Mr. Turbervile?

As to Turbervile, my Lord, a little before the Witnesses were sworn at the Old-Bailey, I met with Mr. Tubervile: I was in a Coach, but seeing Mr. Turber­vile, I stept out of the Coach, and spoke with him; for, hearing that he was a Wit­ness, I did ask him whether he was a Witness or no against Colledge? Mr. Turbervile said, He would break any one's Head that should say so against him; for he neither was a Witness, nor could give any Evidence against him. So after he came from Oxon. I met with Mr. Turbervile again; and, hearing he had been there, I asked him if he had sworn any thing against Colledge? He said, yes, he had been sworn before the Grand Jury. Said I, did not you tell me so and so? Why, said he, the Protestant Citizens have deserted us; and God dam him, he would not starve.

Would he say so to you?

Yes, my Lord, He said those very words.

'Tis Mr. Oates saying, 'tis Mr. Turbervile's Oath.

Several times he did repeat it; but when I asked him what he had sworn, He said I am not bound to satisfie peoples curiosities.

What say you to it, Mr. Turbervile?

My Lord, the first part of the Doctor's discourse, in part is true; I met him just at my Lodgings, and the Doctor alighted out of his Coach, and spoke to me, and invited me to come to my old Friends; for he told me they had some jea­jousie that I was not true to them: and he told me, if I would come to the King's-Head Club, I should be received with a great deal of kindness; and never afterwards did I speak with the Doctor a tittle about any Evidence.

He says, you said you would break any one's Head, that said you were an Evidence against Colledge; for you were not, nor could be.

There was no such thing said by me.

Upon your Oath, did you tell him so?

Upon my Oath, I did not.

Did you tell him that other passage, when you swore you would not starve?

No, I did not.

Upon the word of a Priest, what I say is true. My Lord, I do say, as I am a Minister, I speak it sincerely, in the presence of God, this Gentleman did say these words to me, which made me afraid of the man, and I went my ways, and never spake with him afterwards, nor durst I; for I thought he that would swear and curse after that rate, was not fit to be talked with.

'Tis very improbable that he should say so to you.

I always looked upon Dr. Oates as a very ill man, and never would converse much with him.

Will you ask him any thing more?

Do you know any thing of the rest, Doctor?

I know nothing of Turbervile further, but that he did present this Pe­tition, wherein he says, he lay under great temptations to go on the other side, and ac­cuse some Protestants. And truly till I heard he was an Evidence at Oxon. after what he had said to me, I did not believe it.

Doctor Oates, Mr. Turbervile hath not changed Sides, you have; he is still an Evidence for the King, you are against him.

Mr. Attorney, I am a Witness for truth, against falshood and suborna­tion; and it can plainly be made to appear there is subornation against the Pro­testants. And moreover, my Lord,—

Mr. Oates, you would do well to explain your self.

If there be any subornation relating to Mr. Turbervile, or any of the other Witnesses that have now sworn against Colledge, make it out, Doctor.

There is, my Lord, and there will be made further to appear in time to come. To my own knowledge as to Mr. Smith, Mr. Colledge and Mr. Smith had some provoking words passed betwixt them at Richard's Coffee-House, and Mr. Smith comes out and swears, God dam him, he would have Colledge 's blood. So, my Lord, when I met him; said I, Mr. Smith, you profess your self to be a Priest, and have stood at the Altar; and now you intend to take upon you the Ministry of the Church [Page 71] of England, and these words do not become a Minister of the Gospel; his reply was, God dam the Gospel; this is truth, I speak it in the presence of God and man.

Can you say any thing of any of the other Witnesses.

As for Mr. Dugdale, I was ingaged for him for 50 l. for last Lent As­sizes, he wanted money to go down to the Assizes, having paid some debts, and paid away all his money; and so I engaged for 50 l. that he borrowed of Richard the Coffee­man. After he came from Oxon. I called upon him to hasten to get his money of the Lords in the Treasury; which, as near as I remember, was ordered him upon his Pe­tition, for so I heard. And at that time, said he, Sir, I hear there is a great noise of my being an Evidence; against whom, said I, against several Protestants, my Lord Shaftsbury, and others, said I: I never heard any thing of it; says he, there is no body hath any cause to make any such report of me; for I call God to witness, I know no­thing against any Protestant in England. After that I met with Dugdale at Richard's Coffee-house, and pressing him for the money, and he saying he had it not just then, but would pay it in a little time: Mr. Dugdale, said I, you have gone, I am afraid, a­gainst your conscience; I am sure against what you have declared to me; said he, it was all long of Colonel Warcupp, for I could get no money else.

Mr. Oates is a thorough-pac'd Witness against all the King's Evidence.

And yet Dr. Oates had been alone in some matters, had it not been for some of these Witnesses.

I had been alone perhaps, and perhaps not; but yet, Mr. Serjeant, I had always a better Reputation than to need theirs to strengthen it.

Does any man speak of your Reputation; I know no body does med­dle with it, but you are so tender.

Sir George, Now a man is upon his life, I think you do not do well to af­front his Witnesses.

I do not affront him; but now, my Lord, pray give us leave to call our Witnesses. Mr. Smith, pray stand up.

Mr. Smith, do you hear what Mr. Oates hath said?

No, my Lord.

Then speak it again, Mr. Oates.

Yes, my Lord, I will speak it to his face. He said, coming out of Richard's Coffee-house, they having had some provoking words, as I understood when I come in, God dam that Colledge, I will have his blood; and, my Lord, when I did reprove him, and said to him, Mr. Smith, you have been a Priest, and stood at the Altar, and intend to be a Minister of the Church of England, these words do not be­come a Minister of the Gospel; and he replied, God dam the Gospel; and away he went.

What say you to it, Mr. Smith?

Not one word of this is true, upon my Oath. 'Tis a wonderful thing you should say this of me; but I will sufficiently prove it against you, that you have confounded the Gospel, and denied the Divinity too.

Mr. Dugdale, you heard what was said against you.

My Lord, now Dugdale is come I will tell you something more. There was a Report given out by Mr. Dugdale's means, that Mr. Dugdale was poysoned; and in truth, my Lord, it was but the Pox. And this Sham passed through­out the Kingdom in our Intelligencies; and this I will make appear by the Physician that cured him.

That is but by a third Hand.

He did confess that he had an old Clap, and yet he gave out he was poysened; but now, my Lord, as to what I said before of him, I was engaged for 50 l. for Mr. Dugdale, do you own that?

I do own it.

I did press upon you to hasten the payment of it.

Yes, you did.

And did not you come to me and tell me, there was a noise of your be­ing an Evidence, it was in time just before my Lord Shaftsbury was taken up.

I never spoke to you till you spake to me.

My Lord, He came, and said to me. There is a noise of my being an Evidence; now I had not heard it then; but the day after I did hear it, and I did justifie Mr. Dugdale. because he had said to me that he had nothing against any Protestant in England. So I did stand up in vindication of him; but, my Lord, after he had sworn at the Old Baily I met him again, and pressed him for the mo­ney, and urged him with it, why he had sworn against Colledge, when he had told me so and so before, and he said it was all long of Colonel Warcup; for he could not get his money else; and Colonel Warcup did promise he should have a place at the Custom-House.

Upon the Oath I have taken, and as I hope for Salvation, it is not true.

Here is Dugdale's Oath against Dr. Oats's saying.

Mr. Serjeant, you shall hear of this in another place.

'Tis an unhappy thing that Dr. Oates should come in against these men that supported his Evidence before.

My Lord, I say further, if any Doctor will come forth and say he cured me of a Clap, or any such thing, I will stand guilty of all that is imputed to me.

Mr. Colledge, will you call any other Witnesses?

My Lord, I think this is not fair dealing with a man for his Life; because these men be upon their Oaths, and deny the things again that my Witnesses prove, there­fore what they swear must needs be taken for truth: but if my Witness comes and says such a thing upon the word of a Minister, and in the presence of God, and which he is ready to maintain by an Oath, sure it is not to stand for nothing; nor he to be hooted out of Court, because Mr. Dugdale denies it upon his Oath, I do suppose he will not acknow­ledge it. But, my Lord, I am the Prisoner, and cannot be heard as a Witness for my self: but God is my Witness, he hath said a great deal more to me formerly; and he hath told [Page 73] me when I have seen him with Warcup, and asked him why he kept company with Warcup, and others; said he, I know they are suspected men, but I must keep company with them to get my money; what would you have me do, starve. And when I lent him money out of my pocket, and trusted him with my Horse, I dunn'd him for money and could not get it; said I, will you pay me the 5 l. I lent you; he put me off, said he, I shall have it, for the Attorney General hath made up his Accompts, and he is very kind to me; why then, said I, why have you it not; said he, he is my Friend, and I do not question the getting of it; but here is new work to be done, such work as my conscience will not serve me to do; there is more Roguery, they will never have done plotting, and counterplotting; but they will make a thousand Plots if they can to destroy the real one.

Can you prove this now?

No, it was spoken to my self; and no body was by but my self.

Then you should not speak it. But you asked the question whether a man may not be believed upon his word, as well as he that is upon his Oath. Your Witnes­ses are not upon their Oaths, but they may be Witnesses, and their weight is to be left with the Jury; they will consider how improbable it is, that these men should come, three men to one man, and all of them should speak that which would make them­selves Rogues and Villains; and that one man of them, Smith, should say such words, as, God damn him, he would have his blood, and God damn the Gospel: that Dugdale should confess he was wrought upon by Warcup to testifie against his Conscience; and that Turbervile should say to that purpose, He would not starve; they have sworn the contrary, and so there are all these three mens Oaths against one mans Affirmation; but it must be left to the Jury.

There is his Affirmation against what they three say. He charges every one of them, and 'tis but the single denial of every one of them to his Charge.

'Tis improbable they should own themselves such Villains to him.

They must be so, if they will do what they have undertaken. I hope my Word will be believed as soon as their Oaths.

It is not to be thought, but when they have sworn so against me, they will deny any such thing when they are charged with it.

Have you done with your Witnesses? Or will you call any more?

What is said upon an honest mans word in the face of a Court, is certainly to be believed as well as what is sworn.

'Tis a Testimony, that is most certain, and must be left to the Jury, they must weigh one against the other. But pray, Mr. Colledge will you call your Witnes­ses, for it begins to grow late.

There is Mr. Wilmore, that was a material Witness for me, who was Fore­man of the Grand Jury, that would not find the Bill upon this Evidence. What he had to say I don't know, but I am informed it was very material for me.

It will be enough for him to clear himself, for he is charged with High Treason, and by two Witnesses too.

Call. Alexander Blake.

What do you ask him?

Do you know John Smith?

Yes, Sir.

Pray will you tell the Court what you know of John Smith.

I suppose you mean this Gentleman. Mr. John Smith, Gent. came to me one morning, and told me there was one Haynes under Examination, and Haynes had discovered very material things against some great persons: this passed, and within few days after I met Mr. Smith at the Exchange Coffee-House, and having saluted him, I desired him to drink a glass of Wine, and so we went to the Sun Tavern, and when we were there, I asked him, what his sense was of Haynes, and his Discovery? Said he, 'tis a Sham Plot: I asked him what he meant by that Sham Plot? Said he, 'tis a meal-tub Plot. This is all that I know.

Would you ask him any thing else?

I know nothing more.

Do you know any thing of Turbervill or Dugdale?

Sir, I have no acquaintance with him, nor desire it. But I was ac­quainted with this Gent. Mr. Smith, I know him very well.

You say well, stand down.

Call Mr. Samuel Smith.

What ask you him?

What he knows of Mr. Smith.

Mr. John Smith and I have had an intimacy and acquaintaince several months, and since Mr. John Smith swore at the Old Baily against Mr. Colledge, and was gone out of Town, several people have talked with me concerning him, and asking me what I thought of him? I told them, I believed he was an honest man, however I would not believe otherwise till I knew a reason of it. They told me, that he had sworn against Mr. Colledge, that he was to seize the King at the Parliament at Oxford, and that there was 1500 Barrels of Powder, and it was to carry on a Presbyterian Plot: Said I, I will never believe it, and the rather because he hath said to me often, there was a Popish Plot, but he does not believe any Presbyterian or Protestant Plot; and said I further, as to his giving in any Evidence with Irish-men, I believe it the less for that; for I have heard him often say, they were a company of Rogues that had done the Protestant Interest more harm than ever they would do it good, and bid me have a care of coming into their company, and many other such things, that Mr. Smith here knows to be true. Then, my Lord, when Mr. Smith came home (for I was very im­patient till he did come home to hear every day such things said against him) I went to see him. Said I, Cousin Smith, I have had great confronts about you since you went away, but I hope you can't be that ill man you are represented to be, and truly I should be sorry it should be so: pray Cousin, said I, I have put every man off with this, that I would suspend my belief of you till I had spoken with your self; what is the Evidence you have given? They say, you have sworn a Presbyterian Plot, or a Prote­stant [Page 75] Plot, a Design of seizing the King at Oxon. and of so many Barrels of Gen-pow­der that were provided. Says my Cousin, I did swear no such thing, nor never a word of any such thing as a Protestant Plot, or a Presbyterian Plot, and pray do not believe it of me. No, said I, I thought you could not swear any such thing, because you have said often to me, you believed there was no such thing. I do not believe it yet, said he, and as to whatsoever Colledge said, I did not believe it, for he did not believe it him­self. And Mr. Smith told me after his return that he did not know of any Protestant concerned in the Plot.

He does not say now 'tis a Protestant Plot.

So far from that, that he told me after his Return he did not know any Protestant concerned in the Plot.

Mr. Smith, thus I understand you. You say that he said to you, That he had not testified any thing of a Protestant Plot, nor did believe there was any Prote­stant Plot, for he did not believe what Colledge said himself: So by that discoure it seems he did not deny, but he had testified against Mr. Colledge, but he did not believe there was any Protestant Plot?

No, my Lord, he did not deny but he had sworn against Colledge.

Nor that what he had said against Colledge was true;

No my Lord, but he did not believe him, and he thought Colledge did not believe it himself.

It seems Mr. Colledge thinks the whole Protestant Interest concerned in him.

The question is Mr. Colledge what you had in your mind, not what was in the mind of all the Protestants.

This I do say, I would not speak more nor less than the truth, he did not deny, but he had heard Colledge speak those words he swore, but he did not believe him, and I think Mr. Smith hath said that at another time before Mr. Gardner.

If he knew of no Protestant Plot, it was very unlikely that I should attempt such a thing my self.

My Lord, I find Mr. Smith hath been very passionate and very inveterate of late against other men that he hath given me a very good report of before; And when I was talking of this, I was saying, if it be true that people say of you, a man goes in danger of his life to converse with you. Mr. Smith, said he, I do not care for all the men between Wapping and Charing-cross, there is never a man that will forbear my company, but would do or say as much as Colledge hath done or said.

'Tis true, and I say so still.

'Tis a contradiction in it self, That there should be such a design and none but my self to do it. God my righteous Judge knows my innocency.

You might say those words in hopes they would be of your party and made so by your Libels and poysonous Pictures.

Come, call another Witness.

Call Mr. Tho. Gardner. But my Lord, how likely is it that I should say, [Page 76] That I would seize the King, when he it seems says, he did not believe there was one man to stand by me?

What say you to this Gentleman?

I never saw him in my life.

Nor I you, Sir.

I know not three of all that come here.

Well, will you ask him any thing?

Pray, do you know Mr. Smith?

Yes.

What do you know of him? Can you say any thing concerning this matter that is sworn against of Treason?

My Lord, this day fortnight I think it was, Mr. S. Smith, the Gen­tleman that was just now up before me, sent for me to the Rummer in Queen-street to drink a glass of Wine, where, when I came, I found him and Mr. J. Smith that is here, whom they call Narrative Smith, talking very briskly concerning one Colledge, I sup­pose that is the Gentleman, and the Jury that acquitted him, and he said that two or three of the Jury-men were Rascals and Villains; and, says he, they talk up and down the Town as if I did intend to Sham the Popish Plot, and to make a Protestant Plot; which, said he, I vow to God, and I will justifie it before God, and all the World, that I know of no Protestant Plot, nor is there any Protestant concerned in a Plot to my knowledge, but this Colledge, and upon his Tryal I believe he will be made appear to be more a Papist than a Protestant; but says Mr. Smith to him, Now you are known to be a Witness in this case, it will be a dangerous thing for a man to converse with you.

Will it be now known that I am a Papist? No man could ever say so in this World.

Says he, I care not what all the world says of me, and I do not value all the men from Wapping to Charing-Cross, but that man that will shun my company, will say and do as much to the King as Colledge hath done. But then I was saying, me­thinks it seems an improbable thing, that such a man as Colledge should seize upon the King, or provide 1500 Barrels of Powder, and those other things. Upon my word, said he, with some passion, clapping his hand upon his breast, when Mr. Colledge did say it, I did not believe a word of it; and upon my Faith I believe Colledge himself did not believe it when he told me so.

Do you know any thing more, Sir?

No indeed, Mr. Colledge.

Call Dr. Oates again

Well, what say you to him?

Pray, Dr. Oates, Mr. Smith charges me that I should speak some treasonable words that time that Alderman Wilcox gave you a Treat at the Crown-Tavern, you were there, and pray how long ago was it?

My Lord, I heard Mr. Smith speaking of it at the Old-Bailey, and if you please to take notice, it was thus; This Summer was twelve-month, or I am sure a great [Page 77] while before Christmas the Alderman had invited me several times to give me a Treat, and I had not time, other business calling me off, but finding a time, I sent him word I would come and see him. He said he was a Brewer and troubled at home with customers, but he would give me a Dinner at the Crown Tavern without Temple-Bar, that was the place fixed upon; there was Mr. Smith the Counsellor, who had been ser­viceable to me in several instances, I did get him to go along with me, and Mr. Colledge was with us, and I heard Smith swearing at the Old Baily, that Mr. Colledge and he had discourse from the Rainbow Coffee-House where we met, and went together.

There I was invited by Alderman Wilcox.

But my Lord, I will tell my story, I am not to tell Mr. Smiths; Col­ledge did tell me he was invited; said I, You shall be welcome as far as I can make you welcome. So Colledge ahd I went together from the Rainbow Coffe-House to the Crown Tavern: Now indeed Colledge was very pleasant and merry, and as I think, the discourse betwixt the Rainbow Coffee-House and the Tavern was betwixt Mr. Colledge and me; for Mr. Smith stayed somewhat behind or walked before, I cannot tell which: When we came to the Crown Tavern we did, to divert our selves till Din­ner came up, enter into a Philosophical discourse with one Mr. Savage, who was for­merly a Romish Priest, but this Savage is since pardoned by the King and is a member of the Church of England, and hath been Professor of Divinity and Philosophy beyond Sea. This as I remember was the discourse before we dined till we went to dinner, it was concerning the Existence of God whether that could be proved by natural demon­stration, and whether or no the Soul was immortal: my Lord, after dinner Smith went away; I did not hear the least discourse of any such thing as he speaks of, and Mr. Smith and Colledge had no discourse in my hearing from the Coffee-House to the Tavern; and when we were in the Tavern we did discourse about those two Points. Counsellor Smith, my Lord, will justifie a great deal of this, and my Brother too, who was with us. But when I heard Mr. Smith swear as he did about this matter at the Old Baily, I did really, my Lord, in my conscience look upon him to be forsworn in that particular.

And he does swear you are out in this.

Will you ask him any more questions?

If your Lordship please he speaks of Mr. Wilcox to be a man that con­tributed money to buy Arms, Powder and Shot, I think Sir George Jefferies knows Al­derman Wilcox is a man of another employment.

Sir George Jefferies does not intend to be an Evidence I assure you.

Do you ask him any more questions?

I do not desire Sir George Jefferies to be an Evidence for me, I had Credit in Parliaments, and Sir George had Disgrace in one of them.

Your Servant Doctor, you are a witty man and a Philosopher.

Call Mr. Thomas Smith.

What would you ask of him now?

Counsellor Smith, here is John Smith, or Narrative Smith, which you please to call him, hath charged me with speaking Treason at our going to dinner at Mr. [Page 78] Wilcox's, I remember you were there, and I think you and I, and Dr. Oates and his Brother, and Mr. Godwin Wharton went together; I did tell Mr. Smith of it, but I did not stir a step out of the Coffee-house with him, but went away before him: How long ago is it since we had that Dinner?

My Lord, if your Lordship please, I do very well remember Mr. Alderman VVilcox, so they called him, did desire to give Dr. Oates a Treat, with some other of his Friends, at the Crown-Tavern without Temple-Bar; but really, my Lord, as to the certain time I do not remember it, but to my best remembrance, my Lord, it was before Christmass last, and some time before Christmass last. And, my Lord, I was there all the time, Mr. Smith was at that time somewhat a stranger to me, some­thing I had heard of his name, and I did stay there all the while: I remember Mr. Al­derman VVilcox was to go out of Town that day; and truly, as to any thing of matter of Treason, or Treasonable words; or any thing tending towards it; I am confident nothing was, or could be spoken, and the room was a very small room, and our com­pany did fill it up, and the Table was so big, that there was little more than for the Ser­vitors to go about, so that any man might easily hear from the one end of the room to the other. I remember there was some discourse betwixt Dr. Oates and Mr. Savage, who I think hath been a Jesuit, and it was about some points of Philosophy and Divi­nity; but for Treason, I do not remember the least of it, and I am confident Colledge said not any such thing at that time, and my reason is this; I very well remember Mr. Colledge did set himself down upon one side of the Table, and fell asleep, and unless he talked Treason in his sleep, there could not be any such thing said, and if it had been said, it would have been heard.

Mr. Smith, did you never hear Mr. Colledge speak any ill words of the King?

Never in my life: And if I were now to take the Sacrament upon it, I could say so.

You used to converse with him, Mr. Smith, did he never say any thing like it to you?

Good Mr. Serjeant, you know I can take the Sacrament; pray let us have no reflections.

Who did reflect upon you, I did not reflect upon you.

Mr. Smith, did he never deliver you any of those Pictures?

No Sir, he never did.

Good Sir George don't reflect upon my Evidence. It seems Smith is mistaken in the time, for he says it was at Christmass, but Mr. Smith says it was some time before.

Mr. Smith does not say so, the certain time he cannot tell exactly; but your Witnesses say it was then.

I do speak as much as if I were upon my Oath; and I know what an Oath is, I thank God; and what it is to speak before a Court of Judicature, and I know, and do speak truth as much as if I were upon my Oath; and I do say I did not [Page 79] hear Colledge, or any one else that was in that company at that time, speak any thing reflecting upon the King and Government, or any thing tending towards it.

Can you remember a matter so distinctly, which Dr. Oates says was a year and half ago?

No, this Summer was twelve-month.

And can you tell so long ago, not only your own actions, but testify to all other mens actions too that were in the room?

I cannot tell what Dr. Oates's memory is as to the time, but I remem­ber the place, the occasion, and the persons that were there.

And you take upon you to have such a perfect memory, as to the actions of all the persons that were in the room.

I do not speak of all that was done; but I say I remember no such thing that was said, and I believe no such thing was said, and have given you my reasons why. But, my Lord, that which I say further for Mr. Colledge, is this; I do hear something pretended, as if he provided Arms to go for Oxford. I have known him this three years, or thereabouts; and, my Lord, I do know that he did usually ride with a case of Pistols before him. And before that time I had occasion to borrow his Horse of him, at the Election for Westminster the last Parliament that sat there, and I had it then with a case of Pistols. I likewise borrowed it at Michaelmas last, the same Horse, and the same Pistols they were: I did at the same time see a Suit of Silk-Armour, which he told me he did provide against the Papists, for he said he did expect we should have a brush with them. Said I, do not trouble your self for that, they dare not meddle; said he, this will do no harm. And, as I remember, it was a Suit of Armour made of Silk, to wear under a Coat.

It was Silk Armour only for the thrust of a Sword. And I assure you, my Lord, I had but one Suit, but one case of Pistols, and but one Horse, I had two before, but they did not then make a Traytor of me, that was all that ever I had; but if I had ten Horses, and never so many Armours, I declare it upon my Salvation, I intended it for no­thing but against the Papists, if they should make a disturbance, and whatever I did was with that design, and truly, by the Grace of God, I would not have been the last man then; but I see, whatever I provided my self with for that, they have turned it all another way, that it might be believed the Protestants were against the King and the established Government.

Those observations may be proper for you at last: Go on now with your Evidence.

My Lord, I am not a man of that great memory, I may forget it, and there­fore I speak it now whilst I think of it.

Set it down in your paper.

Smith says I talked with him coming from Richard's Coffee-House till we came to the Tavern; I do declare it, I went away before him, and went away with Dr. Oates.

Ask Mr. Smith that question, if you will.

Pray Sir, do you know who went together thither?

I dare not undertake to say that, I cannot tell whether he went from the Rainbow-Coffee-House with us, or no.

He says after we had dined we divided our selves into Cabals, two and two to­gether: I do declare it, as that which is the real truth, I fell asleep behind the Table, if any body was divided, it is more than I know; but Mr. Smith, you can tell, because he says I spoke Treason to him when I was in the room, he and I in one Cabal.

My Lord, I remember nothing of that, nor do believe it, for I told you the room was so little that we could not divide our selves; and it is impossible in such a little compass where we were, so many as we were, 14 or 15 of us; it may be one might talk to another that was next to him, but then the company must hear, and whe­ther they did so or no, I cannot tell, I do not remember Mr. Smith's saying any thing to any particular person, but the great engagement was between Dr. Oates and Mr. Savage, and about some questions in Divinity, and that is the great matter I took no­tice of.

However, my Lord, I declare it, that was above a twelve-month ago, and I hope your Lordship and the Jury does observe that there was no new Arms were found but what were provided a great while ago: All that know me, know I was never without a case of Pistols and an Horse, though I was but a Joyner, and there is no more that you see now. And as to what Smith said about our going into Cabals, that you hear Mr. Smith denies.

Will you call any other Witnesses?

Yes, if it please your Lordship, Do you know no more, Sir?

I know no other thing, if I did, I would declare it.

Call Dr. Oates's Brother, Mr. Samuel Oates. My Lord, thus you see Smith's testimony is false.

I do not see this contradicts his Oath, for he speaks of several times that he did speak with you, one was at Wilcox's, which is this they speak of.

Mr. Smith says there was only that great discourse going on in the room, and there was no such things as Cabals which he speaks of.

What do you say as to this Witness?

Do you know Narrative Smith?

Yes Sir.

What do you know of him? Were you at the Dinner which Mr. Wilcox gave your Brother?

Yes, yes, I was at that Dinner.

Were you at the Coffee-House when I went along with your Brother?

Yes, we went with you.

Did Mr. Smith go with us?

Yes, Mr. Smith followed us.

Did you hear any Treasonable discourse between us?

Not the least of a little word.

Did we go into Cabals two and two together there?

There was nothing at all of cabals that I saw, from the time of going [Page 81] to Dinner; for we came just as Dinner was going into the room, as I remember.

What do you mean by cabals?

That is, as I discern by Mr. Colledge, as if there had been cabals amongst the company.

That is, going by couples.

Yes, yes.

What did they talk of?

There was nothing at all spoken of?

What, did they say nothing all the while?

Nothing but matter of common discourse, matters of eating and drinking, and talking of Countrey affairs, there were several that had Lands in the Countrey, and they were talking of those things.

Were you there all the while?

Yes.

Heark you, Sir, were there no disputations in Divinity?

Not at all.

Nor of Philosophy?

No.

Why, pray Sir, did not Dr. Oates and Mr. Savage talk very pleasantly of two great questions in Divinity, the Being of God, and the Immortality of the Soul?

There was not a word of that, but only of common discourse.

Are you sure there was no such thing?

Not that I know of in the least. I sat at Table with them.

Was it such a little room that you could hear all was said?

There was room enough.

People cannot give a perfect account of all things that have passed so long ago.

I did not hear that discourse my self, because I was asleep behind the Table; and perhaps Mr. Oates cannot remember it.

Was it before Dinner, or after Dinner, that Colledge fell asleep be­hind the Table?

He was not asleep, to my remembrance, all the while.

Recollect your self, pray; was Mr. Colledge asleep there?

I do not remember he was.

'Tis impossible to give an account, and therefore Witnesses in Negatives are of little value.

Did Mr. Smith and you and I go together?

Mr. Smith followed us.

How do you know that?

For you and I, and my Brother went together: You were a saying when we came out of the Coffee-House in a jocose way, come Dr. I will go along with you, and be one of your Guard. You spoke it in a jesting way; so you may, if you please, said my Brother. And so he went by my Brother's side, and I went by Mr. Col­ledge's side.

Do you remember how long ago that was?

It was the last Summer, but to say exactly what month, I cannot.

Mr. Oates, answer me this question, pray Sir.

Yes, Sir.

From what place did you go.

From Richards Coffee-House.

Who went along with Colledge?

He came along with my Brother and me; for he said to my Brother, I will be one of your Guard.

Who went along with Mr. Smith?

I don't know, I took very little notice of things.

'Tis sufficient that he can tell who went with Colledge.

I remember one thing: Mr. Smith would fain have perswaded me in­to something that my Brother should talk, but I heard nothing; said I, do not examine me upon such things, for I took little notice of any thing; but this I can say, whereas he does charge Mr. Wilcox, the Gentleman did not speak five words all the time he was there.

He does not use to be so melancholy, I assure you.

I did wonder at it my self, but he was not long with us, for I do not think he was there a quarter of the time; it seems he had a Son sick in the Countrey, and he was going thither.

Have you any thing against Macnamarra?

He is no Witness here.

Do you know any thing against Mr. Dugdale?

No, not I.

Then I can say no more to you.

Call another Witness.

Call Mr. Bolron.

What do you ask him?

Do you know John Smith?

Yes.

What say you against him?

May it please your Lordship, the last 25th. of July Mr. Smith, and Mr. Mowbray, and my self were travelling from York towards London. We lay the 24th. at and the 25th. we were travelling towards London: Mr. Smith did ask me, if I did remember what Discourse there was betwixt Sir John Brooks and I at Ferry-bridge, when we were coming up before to London? I desired him to tell me what discourse, and I would tell him if I did remember it or no. So my Lord, he did say, the Discourse was, that Sir John Brooks did say, there would be cutting of throats at Oxford, and that the Parliament did go provided, some with 8, some with 6, some with 4 men, and they were to meet at Grantham, and go together. This discourse I did remember, that Sir John Brooks said, they went with Horse and Arms to secure them from High-way-men; and Sir John Brooks did then further declare, that the Discourse was, there would be cutting of throats at Oxford, which made them go with Arms to defend themselves. Mr. Smith did further upon the 25, 26, 27, and 28th. of July (and it was our frequent discourse) tell me, that he had given His Majesty an account of it, which occasioned the Dissolving of the Parliament: That Discourse that was made to the King, was, that Sir John Brooks should say, there would be cut­ting [Page 83] of throats at Oxford, and that the Parliament-men went provided with 4 or 5, 6 or 10 men apiece; and he did tell me, he had given a further account, that there was a Consult a [...] Grantham, wherein it was resolved, that it was better to seize the King, than to let him go on. Now, this I knew nothing of, but he would have perswaded me to have given in this Evidence against Sir John Brooks, as to this Dis­course. But I declare, I did never hear it, and Mr. Smith was the first man that ever I heard it from, I never heard it before in my life.

Would he have had you been an Evidence, and swore it?

Yes; he said he had given an account of it to the King, and if I did manage it rightly against my Lord Shaftsbury and Colledge, he would make me for ever; those two persons were mentioned all along. But I do declare it, I did never hear them speak Treason against the King in my life. And he did further tell me, that I must say so and so; for if we did not agree, it would signifie nothing. But, my Lord, I know nothing of the matter, I never heard any one speak of it but Mr. Smith. My Lord, this is true, Mr. Mowbray was the man that was by when it was discoursed.

He would have had you sworn it, would he?

I discovered it to my Lord Mayor.

When did you discover it?

Soon after he came to Town.

When was it?

Some time last week.

Was it on Saturday last?

It was the beginning of the week.

Thou art such a Discoverer.

My Lord, 'tis very true what I say. If I had known any such thing, I would have discovered it.

Thou wouldest have discovered it before that time, of my consci­ence.

My Lord, he hath been an Evidence against the Papists as well as Mr. Smith, and therefore pray Sir George don't make your flourishes upon him.

He was an Evidence, but he had the misfortune never to be be­lieved.

Do you know any thing of any Pictures of Mr. Colledges making? Have you seen Raree Shew?

Never in my life.

Did you not shew it in Oxford?

No, never in my life.

Did you never declare to any Gentleman of Oxford, that Col­ledge made this Picture?

I have seen the Character of a Popish Successor, but I never saw Raree Shew.

Here is the very Gentleman, my Lord, that will make Oath of it.

He was supposed to make them, I did not know that he did.

I do only desire one thing, I do not say, that you ever had Raree [Page 84] Shew, but did you ever tell any body that Colledge made any of these Pictures?

I have heard of such a paper, but I did never see it in my life.

Do you know that Gentleman, Mr. Bolron?

I know him not.

I would ask you, whether you ever had any discourse with that Gentleman?

Never in my life.

What is the Gentlemans Name?

Mr. Charlett of Trinity Colledge.

Pray Sir, do you know that person there?

My Lord, in the new Coffee-House that was by the Schools, that was set up in the Parliament-time, there was a Gentleman that is in the Court (I think) one Mr. Dashwood, and one Mr. Box were there together to drink a dish of Coffee, and and hearing that some of the Evidence were there, we desired their company up, and that Gentleman was one; and among other Discourse, they were speaking of some Pictures, and they shewed us the Picture of the Tantivies.

Did this man shew it you?

This very man; it was the Pictures of the Tantivies and the Towzer, and he told me they were made by Colledge, he was a very ingenious man.

I know nothing of it, the Character of a Popish Successor I have seen, but never the other, I never shewed him any such thing.

It was something like this, but I cannot say for any of the other.

The charcter of a Popish Successor, I say I have seen, and Colledge himself hath told me he made the character of a Popish Successor, I do not deny that I have seen that.

Would you ask him any more questions?

My Lord, I have something more to say concerning Mr. Brian Hains; in January, February and April last, several times I was in his company, and I heard him say, he knew nothing of a Popish Plot, nor of a Presbyterian Plot neither, but if he were to be an Evidence he did not care what he swore, but would swear and say any thing to get money.

Did he tell you so?

Yes, I did hear him say, to day he would be a Papist, to morrow a a Presbyterian, he did not care for Religion, he would never die for Religion, he would be of that Religion that had the strongest party. My Lord, he told me so at my own House in Fleet-street.

He would say any thing for money, pray my Lord take notice of that, for so I find he does.

Then there is Dennis Macnamarra, and John Macnamarra.

We have nothing to say to them.

They have been Evidences against me, though you do not now produce them, [Page 85] they are all in a string, but they are not now brought because my Witnesses are prepa­red to answer them.

Will you call your next Witness.

Mr. Mowbray, pray, Sir, do you know Narrative Smith, as he calls himself?

Yes, my Lord.

What do you know of it?

I came up from York with him when I returned, after I was commanded down upon the Kings account to give in Evidence against Sir Miles Stapleton, he came to me the third of August, and called at my House in Yorkshire, and was very impor­tunate for me to come up to London with him, for he said, he had a Letter come to him which commanded his presence at London very suddenly, and he produced that Letter which he said came from a Gentleman of the Court, or some Court dependent; so he read the Letter in Mr. Bolrons hearing. We set forward on Sunday, and upon our journey to London he told me he had something of importance to impart to me, so upon the Road he began to discourse of the Parliament, and of the illegal pro­ceedings and Arbitrary Power of the Two last Parliaments, he said their proceed­ings were very illegal and arbitrary, and he began to open some of the Votes, as that which they voted, that those that should lend the King money upon the Crown Lands, should be enemies to the King and Kingdom, and those that counselled the King to dissolve the Parliament; and he repeated many Votes; and, said he, these are signs of Arbitrary Power, and certainly they design to take off the King; so he proceeded further, to ask me what was the Discourse of Sir John Brooks when we came up before, and he did much importune me to say, that Sir John Brooks did af­firm there would be cutting of throats at Oxford, and that the King was to be seized there. I told him, I could have no plausible pretence, because I had no acquaintance with Sir John Brooks, nor did I come up with him; upon which he applied himself to Mr. Bolron, and importuned him for the same, he asked me who I came up with, I told him, I came up with Three members of Parliament, my Lord Fair­fax, Sir John Hewly and Mr. Stern; he asked what Discourse we had upon the Road? And he asked, whether they had any Discourse that tended to justifie their former Votes? For he said, if they did think to justifie any thing of those Votes, or if they would not allow the King money, and stood upon the Bill of Exclusion, he said, that was pretence enough for any man to swear that there was a Design against the King, and that the King was to be seized at Oxford.

An excellent pretence indeed, and like the rest.

He would have tempted me to swear against my Lord Shaftsbury the same. And he said, it would be well if I did appear on Colledges Tryal at Oxon. for it was a thing of great consequence; the Popish Plot was thrown out of doors, and no man was looked upon that did speak of it.

Was all this in the presence of Mr. Bolron?

No, my Lord, when he was discoursing about Sir John Brooks, Mr. Bolron [Page 86] rid up to us, and he applied himself to him, because I told him I had no plaufible pre­tence to swear against him, having no acquaintance with him.

Pray, Sir, let me ask you one question; when came you from York?

We set forward the third day of August from Wentbridge.

Pray who came with you in the company?

Mr. Bolron.

That was a Sunday, as I take it.

Yes.

Then pray, how long did you continue before you came to London?

I think we came in on the Thursday after.

When was the first time Mr. Smith came into your company?

Upon the road on Sunday.

Was that the first time?

Yes, He had been at York, and went further, and afterwards came to us.

When did you come from York.

About the Thursday before, if I be not mistaken.

Was it in a week before.

Yes, within a week it was.

And you and Mr. Bolron came together.

Yes.

And you left Mr. Smith behind.

Yes.

And he overtook you upon the road.

Yes: He was to go further into the North as soon as the Tryal of Sir Miles Stapleton was over; and therefore he did very much importune me to stay in the Coun­trey till he came to go up with me.

What day was the Tryal of Sir Miles Stapleton.

On the Monday before.

You are sure of that, and that Mr. Smith went further into the North.

I see him take Horse.

But he did not come into the company of you and Bolron till the Sunday after that.

See ye, Sir, He did desire me to stay in the Countrey till he came, for he had a business of great concernment to impart to me, but it would be a week or a fortnight ere he came, but yet he came in a shorter time; for he said he had received a Letter that brought him up.

You are sure of this.

Yes.

And you did not see him from the Monday before, till that Sunday.

No, no.

Now then, I ask you where was that place that he met with you.

At Wentbridge.

And then you came from thence towards London the next day.

Yes.

Now would I desire to know of you, for I perceive he did attack you to say something against Sir John Brooks, and finding that you could not do it, because you had no acquaintance, he applied himself to Bolron. I would know, was it between that place and London.

Yes, it was.

And after the third of August.

Yes, it was after we set out.

I thought it had been the 24th. of July that you set out, and continued [Page 87] your journey the 25, 26, 27, 28, and 29th. Alas, we have lost a great deal of time be­tween Bolron and Mowbray. Bolron said it was the 25th. they lay at such a place, and you are gotten to the third of August; you are mistaken certainly, as to point of time.

See, Sir, I will look in my Almanack, 'tis all set down there.

Let us see now if your Oxford journey be as well set down, as your jour­ney to London is.

Here is my Almanack, Sir. Mr. Jones. Here, look upon his Almanack.

Mr. Jones, I don't care for his Almanack, I had rather Mowbray and Bolron could bring their Almanacks together, and I would have them compared, to see whether the third of August in one, be the 25th. of July in the other. Did you discourse with him upon the road the third of August, and not before; and Bolron that came up with you, discourse with him the 25th. of July.

I am mistaken, I find.

Ay, that you are, one of you most grosly.

See, Sir, here is my Almanack, whereby. I find that it is my mistake; but pray see, Sir, here it is set down; the day we came out was the 24th. the day we came to London was the 27th.

How didst thou set out the third of August from that place, and yet come to London the 27th. of July.

I will refer my self to Mr. Smith, as to the time we came up, and here is my Almanack.

I will believe thy Almanack to speak truth, though it have never so many errors about the changes of the weather, sooner than I will believe thee.

I perceive the man is mistaken in the month and the time; but pray, my Lord, will you please to see, for Justice sake, if the Almanack be new writ.

Look you, here is the matter, Mr. Colledge, he was asked again and again, what day it was, and he was positive to the third of August.

He was mistaken, but his Almanack is right.

He speaks rashly, that is the best can be said.

It was a mistake of mine, Sir George, but my Almanack is right.

Nay, Mr. Mowbray, don't enter into dialogues with me, I only make a little observation upon your Almanack.

It was only my mistake.

You are a rash man to affirm so: if you had an Almanack, you should have consulted it, or referred to it.

Nay, we have lost a day even by your Almanack; for yours says it was the 27th. you came to Town, Bolron the 28th.

I refer my self to Mr. Smith, he can't deny but he came up with us at that time.

You were examined at Sir Miles Stapleton's Tryal, was you not, Mowbray?

I was an Evidence there.

Did the Jury believe you?

They did acquit Sir Miles Stapleton.

That is nothing to the purpose; so was Mr. Smith too.

Would you ask any thing further?

Call Mrs. Mary Bolron.

If you have any more Witnesses, pray call them.

Mowbray, was Bolron's Wife by when this discourse was?

No, she was in Town, she did not go down with him at all.

Are you Bolron's Wife?

Yes.

Well, what do you ask her?

Mrs. Bolron, Pray do you know Mr. John Smith?

Yes, I do know him.

What can you say of him?

He sent several times for my Husband and Mowbray to my House, something he would have them be concerned in, some business he had in hand.

When was that?

Within this three weeks, since he came up from York Assizes.

You may see there was an understanding between them then.

Did they go accordingly?

Now and then they have gone to him, but they knew his business, because they had discourse with him, as they said, upon the road, and they would not go.

Would you ask her any thing else; what do you know more?

Nothing, for I am not one that stirs much abroad.

Call Mr. Everard.

What do you ask him?

As for Mr. Everard, I need not ask him whether he knows him, for they know one another well enough: But Mr. Everard, that I would ask you is this; what do you know of Mr. Smith, and of this contrivance against me?

Mr. Smith I have been to see of late, and he told me he knew of no Presbyterian or Protestant Plot; and when my Lord Howard was tried, that is, the Bill brought against him, he said he wondred how my Lord Howard could be Guilty, and that both himself and I were joyned as Evidence to that Jury, only to put a gloss upon the Evidence; for, says he, I have nothing material to say.

Mr. Everard. Do you know any thing more concerning him, what he hath said at other times concerning me?

I have told you already what I have heard him say, that he thought there was no Protestant or Presbyterian Plot, & that now of late within this little while.

Pray Sir, was there not some discourse betwixt Justice Warcupp and you in Lincolns-Inn Walks?

Is Justice Warcupp an Evidence here?

No, no.

'Tis all but Evidence of a Presbyterian Plot; therefore, pray Sir, what was the discourse between Justice Warcupp and you, what would he have had you done?

I think it is not material, there is nothing of Mr. Warcupp in this Tryal.

If the Court does allow of it, I will freely tell it.

My Lord, the Papists design is to make a Protestant Plot to turn off their own, and [Page 89] they begin with me, but if I should go, they would not be satisfied with me, they would be at others.

There is nothing concerning a Presbyterian or Protestant Plot in the case.

My Lord, if there be no Presbyterian Protestant Plot, and others to joyn in it, how could I do it by my self; 'tis impossible I should have such a design of seizing the King, and improbable I should speak it. Now, my Lord, this man was sollicited to come in for an Evidence of such a Plot.

That is true.

I tell you it is not material, Justice Warcupp is not concerned in your Tryal.

Justice Warcupp would have perswaded me to have sworn against some Lords a Presbyterian Plot, but I deny that I know any such thing of them.

The Papists aim is not at me only, but at others.

We have nothing to do with what you and Justice Warcupp talked of; for example sake, my Lord, let us have no discourses that concern third persons brought in here.

Would he have perswaded you to say any thing that was not true?

He did not say positively those words, but this he said, I knew seve­veral Lords—

Now here is Mr. Justice Warcupp's same traduc'd behind his back in the face of the Countrey, and it is nothing to this cause before us.

My Lord, I desire to know what he knows of these things, and that he may speak it out, 'tis a material thing for me and others: Here is a design of the Papists to turn a Plot upon the Protestants, they begin with me, and if they have my blood, who may feel the effect of it next I cannot tell.

Truly I think it not material to your case, and indeed 'tis of ill conse­quence to have any man traduced behind his back, as Justice VVarcupp is.

My Lord, Macnamarra told me, that that man would have seduced him to have retracted his Evidence; upon my Salvation 'tis true.

We meddle not with Macnamarra neither, he is no Evidence against you.

Macnamarra hath sworn against me at the Old-Baily, and at the finding of this Bill, but they have laid him by upon some trick or other: I desire Mr. Everard may tell what he knows.

I would not reflect upon any person, nor will I answer it, if the Court do not think fit.

My Lord, this is foul play, if I die my self for my Countrey sake, I can do it freely, and the will of God be done; I would have the truth out for the sake of the Protestants.

I am very willing to tell the truth, if the Court think fit.

I see not that he says Mr. VVarcupp would have had him swear that which was not true.

But this he said, if the Court will allow me to speak it; Justice VVarcupp said, that certainly there was a Presbyterian Plot, and such things; and that some Lords, some of the Protestant protesting Lords must be guilty of it, and said he, certainly you [Page 90] know much of it, You know such and such things, therefore you may safely swear it, if I knew it; so by argument he would first prove there was a Plot and combination a­mongst those Lords, and then said he this you may safely swear.

What is this to your purpose, Mr. Colledge, only Mr. Warcup's name is brought upon the stage when he is not here to vindicate himself.

Would you ask him any thing else?

If he does know any thing more of any of them, I desire he would speak it.

Concerning Mr. Haynes, he told me it was necessity that drove him to speak any thing against the Protestants, and the hard Pay and the Gratitude he did re­ceive from the Citizens.

Where did he tell you this?

In the fields near Grays-Inn.

How long since?

About three weeks ago. I asked him, Mr. Haynes, said I, I would not draw you from your Testimony in any thing; but how can this be congruous to what you have said formerly, That you knew nothing by them? The truth is, said he, I will not say much to excuse my self, but my Wife was reduced to that necessity, that she begg'd at Rouse's door, and craved some Salary, and Mr. Rouse would not give her any; and, said he, meer necessity drove me to it.

He found better pay in another place.

And, says he, 'tis Self-preservation in the next place: for I was brought in guilty when I was taken up, and therefore I was obliged to do some things to save my Life.

Pray, my Lord, and Gentlemen, observe what this Gentleman says, Haynes takes this course to destroy innocent persons for his own preservation.

Besides, he told me, there is a Judgment impending upon the Nation, said he, either upon the King, or upon the people, I know not which; but these Irish mens swearing against them, is justly fallen upon them for their Injustice against the Irish in outing them of their Estates.

So he did it then by way of revenge. For his Country-men, I have nothing of their Estates, I am sure; therefore they had no cause to swear against me. But, Mr. Everard, have you any more to say concerning any of them?

No more concerning those persons that have sworn against you, I can say no more.

As to Dugdale or Turbervile?

No indeed.

As to this Presbyterian Plot, Sir?

If the Court does allow concerning other persons; but I would not in­trude any thing but what the Court shall think fit.

I know not but they may come in against me; therefore pray tell what [Page 91] you know. Mr. Everard, do you know any thing more? Pray let me know what you know.

Nothing of any person that hath appeared against you as yet, but what I have told you.

They may do, Sir.

And then we may properly hear him to them, and not before.

I desire to know who they are; pray let me know their Names.

Fitzgerald.

He hath been no Witness here.

Call Thomas Parkhurst.

What do you ask him now he is here?

What do you know concerning Mr. Dugdale?

Sir, the latter end of the last November, when the Parliament sat at Westminster, several times Mr. Dugdale having promised me his further Narrative to publish, which he printed, I met him several times; one time I met him at Richard's Coffee-House, and it was towards the evening before we went away; he told me and Mr. Symonds, that he was to speak with Dr. Tongue; and he told us, that this Dr. Tongue did lie at Mr. Colledge's; and he having spoken the day before, and several times, of the danger he was in of his being assassinated by the Papists, M. Symonds and I offered to go with him, we took a coach; for we did not know where Mr. Colledge lived: he had then a Rheum in his Eyes, and was not well; so we accompanied him to Mr. Colledge's to speak with Dr. Tongue. It was evening when we went; and whilst we took a pipe of Tobacco, in our discourse we were speaking of the times, and of the danger of the Papists; so Colledge took down a steel Hat that hung up there, which he said he had, and he said he had a quilted Coat of defensive Armour, and he said he had a Blunderbuss in his House, and two Pistols. But I little thought of any thing of this, neither did I know well what I was subpoena'd down for: But these Arms I saw in his House, and it was only in discourse that he was provided against the Pa­pists; so I put the steel Hat upon my Head and pulled it off again, and so did Mr. Symonds.

Did I say any thing, Sir, who I had those Arms against?

At that time there was no discourse in the world, but of the danger from the Papists; and he said he was provided for them, if they did come to make any disturbance.

When was it, Sir?

It was about the latter end of November. I have the Narrative that I printed, which was the 23th or 24th; and I have no directions but that to re­member the time. So we carried Mr. Dugdale. home again in a Coach and gave him a pint of Wine at his Lodgings.

This does not contradict Mr. Dugdale at all.

Mr. Dugdale does own this for a truth.

So may any body own it.

Where is Mr. Symonds? Pray, Sir, what do you know of Mr. Dugdale? Mr. Symonds. What about, Sir?

I have your Name here, Sir, but I know not for what.

I can say the same that Mr. Parkhurst did; that I suppose is the busi­siness. All I know of it is this: I was with Mr. Parkhurst and Mr. Dugdale at Richards Coffee-House some time in November, I think it was about the printing of Mr. Dugdales further Information; and Mr. Dugdale was saying Dr. Tongue had sent for him, but spoke as if he was fearful of some danger in going alone; so we proffered to go along with him, and we took a coach at the Coffee-House-door, and went with him to Dr. Tongue, who lodged at Mr. Colledges. When we came into the Room, Mr. Parkhurst and I thought fit we should in civility withdraw, which we did; and Mr. Colledge brought us down into another Room, where we sat and took a pipe of Tobacco, and talking about the common discourse of the times, about the Papists and the danger from them, there hung up in Mr. Colledges Room some Arms; what they were, I dare not charge my memory with to swear particularly, but I do think there was a Silk coat of mail, and there was a cap of steel, and, as I take it, it was covered with cloth or some such thing; what else I can't well say: I think there was a Blunderbuss and a case of Pistols: And all the discourse that I remember then, was only this; Speaking of the Papists, and some fears as if there would be an Insurrection amongst them, said he, Let the Papist Rogues begin when they will, I am ready to defend my self for one. This is all I know.

Pray, Sir, how long ago was this? Dr. Tongue died before Christmas at my House.

I cannot tell exactly when it was; but during the Session of Parlia­ment I am sure it was, and as I take it, in November the latter end.

So then, pray, my Lord, see that these Arms they charge me withal, were pro­vided before Christmas.

But there is nothing that contradicts Dugdale's Testimony in this.

It does sufficiently contradict him.

I do not see that this does at all contradict what he hath said; but do you observe what you will upon it, when you come to make your Defence.

A Gentleman below desires you to call Mr. Yates.

Pray, Sir, what do you know concerning Dugdale?

I know that Mr. Dugdale sent for me to a Coffee-House to bespeak a Pistol for you, and told me that when I had made the Pistol, I should deliver it to Mr. Colledge. and Mr. Dugdale promised to pay for it when I had done it. Now some time after I did some small matter for Mr. Dugdale, cleaned his Pistols, or some small business; and Mr. Dugdale asked me if I would drink a pint of Wine, which I agreed to; and being at the Tavern, Mr. Dugdale asked me if Mr. Colledges Pistol were done. I told him no, it was not as yet. So I asked Mr. Dugdale, because he had promised to give Mr. Colledge a Pistol, what obligation there was betwixt Mr. Colledge and him, that he should give him a Pistol? to which he answered, that Mr. Colledge had been serviceable to him in lending him a pair of Pistols to ride withal sometimes. So he gave him a Pistol to satisfie him for the wearing of his Pistols now and then. I thought, said I, Mr. Col­ledge did impose upon your good nature too much, not but that I believe Mr. Colledge [Page 93] is a very honest man, and stands up for the good of the King and the Government. Yes, said Mr. Dugdale, I believe he does, and I know nothing to the contrary.

When was this?

A little after the Parliament sat at Oxford; for I never knew Mr. Col­ledge before Mr. Dugdale set me a work for him.

Mr. Yates, pray was there nothing in the Coffee-House about one that he asked to go with him, when he said he knew nothing against me?

I heard one say—

You must speak your own knowledge, you must not tell a tale of a Tub of what you heard one say.

I heard it affirmed—

But by whom?

By a person in the Coffee-House.

Who was that person?

By one of the Servants of the House.

That is no Evidence at all: if you know any thing of your own knowledge, speak it.

Is he here?

No, I think not.

How long do you think we must sit here to hear other peoples stories.

If you know any thing of your own knowledge, I say, speak it.

Pray let me ask you that question again: When was this that he said he believed he was an honest man?

It was about three weeks after the Parliament sat at Oxford.

Then he does me wrong now; for if I were an honest man then, it cannot be true that he says of me.

Who do you call next?

Pray, my Lord, who hath been sworn against me?

There is Stephen Dugdale, John Smith, Bryan Haynes, Edward Turbervile, Sir William Jennings, and Mr. Masters.

Call Mr. Clayton. My Lord, at his House it was I lay in Oxford, and that Dugdale says I spake some of the Treasonable words: Pray Sir, do you know what time I came to Oxford?

I remember it very well, it was at the time the Parliament sat at Ox­ford, about two or three days after it began.

Pray what Arms did I bring to your House, Sir?

As to the matter of Arms, ther was no other but a Sword and a pair of Pistols; a pair of Pistols in his Holsters, and his Sword by his side.

Was there no Silk Armor?

I saw none, if it please you; such a thing might be.

My Lord, I continued at his House from my coming in to my going out, and that was till after the Parliament was Dissolved; and I came after they were sat: But heark you, Mr. Clayton, Mr. Dugdale says he was with me at your House: Did you ever see him there?

I remember I have seen Dugdale at my House, but never in your company.

Did you sell any mum?

No, I never did sell any in my life.

Because he says we had mum there.

I never saw him there with you, nor changed any word with him, as I know of.

Was he never in the company of Colledge at your house?

Not that I saw.

You don't know all the companies that come into your House.

My Lord, I am told there are some that came from the Town where I was born that know me, and have known me this 24 or 25 years together, if you think that mate­rial for me to prove whether I am a Protestant or no.

If you will make out that, you may. But 'tis your Loyalty that is in que­stion. If you will produce any that can make it appear, that you use to honour the King in your discourse, or so, that is something.

If I am a Protestant, then the design is plain, these men swear to make a Pro­testant Plot, and turn the Plot off the Papists.

What Church do you frequent in London to hear Divine Service?

I have received the Sacrament several times, Sir George.

When were you last at the publick Church?

I hope I may be a Protestant if I have not gone thither; but however, I do use to go to Church.

Well, call whom you will.

Is Thomas Deacon there?

Yes.

He lives, my Lord, in the Parish where I was born. If you please Mr. Dea­con to give my Lord an account what you know of me from my childhood.

I have known Mr. Colledge ever since he was a youth, he was born in the Town where I live.

Where is that?

At Watford, a Town in Hertfordshire. There he lived till he was a man, and married a Neighbours Daughter of mine, and lived there while he had two children; I never knew but that he was a very honest man, frequented and kept to the Church of England all along, and paid every man his own.

How long is it ago since he left that place?

I can't directly tell how long it is truely, but I think 'tis eighteen years since you left Watford.

'Tis fourteen years ago.

You say fourteen, and they say eighteen.

I say, I cannot exactly tell.

But Mr. Deacon, I have been in your Country lately.

He used to come there once or twice a year generally to see his friends I have heard him delare himself against the Popish Church always very much.

Did you never hear him talk against the Government?

No, never in my life.

Nor against the King:

Nor against the King.

Was he in your Country the last Easter?

I think it was about Easter he was there.

Was he at Church there then, and received the Sacrament?

I know not whether he was there of the Lords-day or no: He did quarter at another Town, at Bushy, where he has a Brother-in-law.

Well, call another.

Mr. Whitaker.

What is your Christian Name?

William.

What do you ask of him?

Whether he knows me and my Education.

Sir, I have known him this six and twenty years. I knew his Parents, I know his mother, she lives now at Watford. I have known his behaviour to be very civil and good; a very good Church-man he was when he lived with us; and I have inquired, and find he has the same Reputation in the Parish where he last lived in Black­fryers: He was no Jesuit nor Papist, I dare aver; he hath flouted them & mocked them with their Wooden Gods, and the like; for he never could endure that Perswasion.

He is not questioned for that, but for Treason.

Did you ever hear me speak any thing against the Government?

I never knew of any ill behaviour of him in my life.

But did you ever hear me say any thing against His Majesty or the Government?

Never that I know of. I knew him a Souldier for His Majesty, in which service he got a fit of sickness, which had like to have cost him his life; he lay many months ill, to his great charge.

Where was it he was in His Majesties Service?

At Chatham-business.

It was under my Lord Rochester. But, my Lord, I have a Testimonial under the Hands of seventy people of Watford, to give an account of my good behaviour.

He hath been gone thence these eighteen years.

He hath come there almost every half year, sometimes three or four times in a year, because his mother lives there now, and he came to pay his respects to her. His Children lived and went to School with us.

Come, who do you call else?

Mr. Neal.

I can say no more than the other men before me. I know the man, he was bred and born at Watford, he lived there several years, he married a Wife out of the Neighbourhood, frequented the publick Worship.

How long ago is this?

Sixteen or seventeen years ago. But then he used to come once or twice a year into the Countrey.

Did you ever hear me speak any thing against the King or the Government.

No, never in my life.

How long is it ago since you were in my company last?

When you were in Town last I never heard you say any thing that was ill.

How long is it ago since we were at the White Hart together?

It was about Spring.

I said right, my Lord, I was there about Easter. Pray did you ever hear me speak for the King?

Truly the discourse we had I never used to keep in my mind, but I never heard him speak any thing against the King or the Government.

Were you much conversant with him?

When he came down to give his mother a visit, and see his Neighbours, we used always to see one another.

Pray will you call Mr. Tanner and Mr. Remington.

I say I have known Stephen Colledge these forty years, and I have known that he was always an honest man. He was a Souldier some time, but he always went to Church, was no Conventi [...]ler; and used to visit his Neighbours when he came down to see his mother, and was always looked upon to be a very good man.

You say you knew him a Souldier, pray when was that?

About the time of Harwich business. That is all I can say.

Come, what say you? what do you ask him Mr. Colledge?

I have known Stephen Colledge from a child forty years, he was born at Watford, his Father worked with my Father, and great intimate acquaintance we had with him, and saw him very often; I never knew any fault in him, and I never heard a bad report of him in all the Town of Watford.

Have you seen him at Church lately?

No, I have not.

I would fain know whether this man hath been at Church himself; he looks as if he had not.

I know not whether he hath been at the Church you mean or no; but he may be an honest man and a Protestant for all that.

Call another.

Mr. Peter Norreys.

What do you ask him, Mr. Colledge? here he is.

Do you know any thing concerning Mr. Smith?

I was once in the Hercules Pillars, where was Sir William Waller, Mac­namarra, Mr. Joy, and five or six of us together; and Mr. Smith was there, and we were talking concerning the Parliament approaching at Oxon.

Tell the Names of the rest.

Sir William VValler, Macnamarra, Mr. Ivy, Mr. Lewes, Macnamarra's Brother, and I, and Mr. Smith.

Well said; we don't meddle with any of these, but Mr. Smith.

Was John Smith there?

He was there.

Well, go on then.

We were talking of the Parliament at Oxon. Says Sir VVilliam VVal­ler, most of the Parliament-men are afraid to go up to the Parliament. Truly, said Smith, I hope they will be provided to go, if they do go. Says Sir VVilliam VValler, I shall be provided with the rest of my friends; and Mr. Colledge said, I will go up with the rest of the Parliament-men; I shall be provided too, says most of the Evidence; says Sir VVilliam VValler, Will you go along with me, and I will provide you with an Horse; said he, I have an Horse of my own, and if it please God I will have nothing else to do but to go along with the Parliament, and I will not neglect it. This was all the discourse of the company for that night.

Did you hear Mr. Smith say any thing against me?

No, not a word at all.

But this were a material Evidence against others of the Confederates, if they had been examined.

My Lord, I was at the Amsterdam Coffee-House the 23. of June last, and there was Mr. Denis Macnamarra; said he, Will you go, and I will give you a pot of Ale.

There is nothing of Denis Macnamarra in question before us. If you have any thing to say against any of the Witnesses that have been sworn, go on with your Evidence, we must not hear stories of other people.

He would speak against some men that have sworn against me, but are left out for some Reasons I know not. Pray call Mr. Thomas Norreys.

What do you ask him?

My Lord, he knew me in this Country some fifteen or sixteen years ago.

My Lord, I have been acquainted with Mr. Colledge about sixteen or eighteen years, and he hath always carried himself very civilly and well, and he kept to the Church for a considerable time as duely as any Parishoner did.

How long have you known him?

This sixteen years.

You live in this Country, don't you.

Yes, at Aylworth.

I was at Astrop-wells last year. I believe Mr. Justice Levins saw me there.

Yes, I was there with you.

VVe did discourse commonly then concerning the Papists, Pray, Sir, did you find me inclined to the Popish interest?

You spoke very much against them.

Did you ever hear me speak against the King or the Government?

No, I never heard it; for if he were my Brother, I should have discovered it.

How often have you seen him?

Very often, and conversed much with him.

My Lord, as to the papers charged upon me that they were mine, I declare I know not of them. Dugdale says I owned them, and the Letter and several Prints; but, my Lord, I had done my self a great injury if I had done or owned those things he hath charged me withal. I never could make a Picture, nor never did draw a Picture in my life; and that very person that he says I owned I got it to be Printed by, hath denied it before the King and Council; for he there testified that he did not know the person that caused it to be Printed.

How came you to have so many seized in your House?

My Lord, here is Elizabeth Hunt, the Maid by whom they were taken in, and who can give you an account of it. I cannot deny but that they were in my House; but that I was the Author, or did take them in, is as great a mistake as ever was made. Call Elizabeth Hunt. I do not know whether Curtis be in Town, but this I am confident, he was examined before the King and Council, and He and his VVise denied it.

He shall be called if he be here.

I know nothing of the Printing of them, nor was I the Author of them.

They were dispersed by you up and down.

That they were in my House, I believe, my Lord; and this woman will tell you how, my Lord. Pray tell the Court how these Papers that are called the Raree-Shew came to be in my House.

A Porter brought three bundles to our House, and asked whether my Master was not within: I told him no, he was not. Said he, these Papers are to be left here: said I, who do they come from: said he, 'tis all one for that, you must pay me, and I must leave them here; so I gave him six pence, and he left the Papers, but I never saw the man since, nor before. And, my Lord, I never read them what they were; but I saw they were such sort of Prints as those.

How long was it before they were seized?

A matter of seven or eight weeks.

My Lord, it seems they were put in a Box, and left in my Counting-House: I never touched them, but there they staid, for ought I know, till they were taken.

You were Colledge's Servant, were you not?

Yes, my Lord.

My Lord, I neither knew the Printer nor the Author; but I heard a man was in trouble about them, upon a By-Law in the Stationers Company

How came you by that Original?

Have you it there? I know of none was produced. But if I were a person con­cerned, it were no Treason; and, my Lord, I hope you will do me that Justice, to let the Jury know they are not Treason, none of these Papers. And I do declare I know no­thing of the Original, the Printer, nor the Author.

You spend time in making observations out of order of time: When you have given your Evidence, then make your observations.

I confess I may err as to matter of Order, for I was never in this capacity before: But pray do you tell the Court how the papers came there, and all the trans­actions; [Page 99] for I was a Prisoner when they came and searched.

No, it was eight weeks before you were taken they were left there.

Did you tell you Master soon after they were left there?

No.

Within what time did you tell him?

I believe it was a week or a fortnight.

Where was your Master all that time?

He was in the countrey.

My Lord, I did see them there, I must confess, I do not deny but I saw them there, but I knew not whence they came, nor whose they were; nor did I ever intend to meddle with them, nor concern my self about them. VVhat have you to say more?

Concerning Mr. Dugdale, if I may speak.

Ay, go on.

I went to receive the money of Mr. Dugdale that he owed my Master, and asking him for it, he said he would pay me such a time to morrow morning, if I would come for it; but when I came, he had not the money ready for me. Sir, said I, I think 'tis very hard that you should keep my Masters money from him, and yet you go and swear against his life too: what do you think we shall do at home in the Family, if you keep my Masters money, and he be in Prison? Said he, there is a great deal of do about my swearing against your Master, more than needs; but as I hope for Salva­tion, I do not believe Mr. Colledge had any more hand in any conspiracy against his Ma­jesty, than the child unborn. Here is Dugdale, let him deny it if he can.

As I hope for Salvation I did not say so.

Upon my Salvation 'tis true what I say

This was the maid that hid her Masters papers when they were search­ed for.

Be quiet; art thou entring into dialogues with the maid now.

Mr. Stevens, 'tis well known what a man you are to propagate Witnesses. My Lord, she gave me an account of this in the Tower before I came away, that Dugdale de­sired to speak with Mr. Smith, and told her that nothing that he had to say would touch my life.

As I am alive 'tis true.

Mr. Dugdale denies it now.

He is not a right man if he denies it, for he told it me twice.

I told Mr. Smith of it, when he had leave to come to me: I told him what the maid said he had said to her, and this was three weeks ago; said he, I will speak with him with all my heart, if he has a mind to speak with me; for he hath said that he hath nothing against her Master that can touch an hair of his head, nor nothing that can touch his life; that he knew nothing of a Plot or contrivance against the King; and if I could help it, I had as lieve have given a hundred pound I had never spoken what I have. This he said to her.

You tell her what to say.

Sir, he does not tell me; for Mr. Dugdale said those very things to me.

This is an account I had when I was a Prisoner; I could not direct her.

Do you deny what they say to be true, Mr. Dugdale?

My Lord, she came to me for money, I told her I had it not ready, but would pay her; and in the Shop, before the Apprentice boy, she desired of me that I would write two or three words what I had to say against her Master, and I told Mr. Graham of it. So, said I, I cannot tell, I have not the papers, nor what informations I have given against him. So she came again the next morning, and she was at me to write down what I said. I wonder, said I, your Master will send you! had not he as good send Mr. Smith, who is his counsel? And this was all the words we had.

My Lord, I do solemnly assure you, he said he would write down what he had said against my Master, and would fain speak with Mr. Smith; for there was more ado made about it than needs.

Mr. Graham can tell what it was; for I came and told him immediately.

Did you tell her you had nothing to say against her Master that would touch his life?

I could not say that I had said nothing against her Master, for she asked me that I would write down what I had said; but I told her I knew not what was Treason, that must be referred to the Court.

Did he speak it openly or privately to you?

He did not speak it aloud; no body heard him but my self.

It was in the Shop, and the Apprentice-boy was by.

Was this after he had been at the Old-Baily, or before?

Yes, it was after he had been at the Old-Baily, and after he had been at Oxon. too.

Then it was before the Court, what could be made of it?

She had gone forty times for the money I had lent him out of my pocket, and I lent him that when I had little more for my self.

I did tell him, Mr. Dugdale, if you can't let me have my Masters money, if you please to tell me what you have made Oath against my Master. Said he, I can't let thee have it now, but thou shalt have what I have to say against him; I will draw it up in writing, and thou shalt have it to morrow-morning. The next morning I came to him again, and, said I, I am come again, what must I do? Said he, I have no money, such an one hath not hoped me to it. Sir, then said I, I hope you will be as good as your word, to let me know what you have made Oath against my Master. Said he, I was about it yesterday, but could not do it: But, Sweetheart, said he, (and took me by the hand) I will give you a copy of it to day at ten of the clock; and if I do not, I will tell it thee by word of mouth. So I came to the House at ten, and staid till ele­ven, but did not see him.

You had a great mind to be tampering.

The first time, he asked me who was his counsel; I told him, Mr. Smith; then, said he, I have a great desire to speak with him: So I told my Master of it.

My Lord, you see it is but black and white, all this whole contrivance upon me: she hath proved I knew nothing of these papers, and indeed I did not.

Do you call any more Witnesses?

There is my Brother-in-law that received those papers. Call George Spur, and Sarah Goodwin.

Do you know any thing of the papers that were carried to my Brother George Spur [...]?

Yes, I do. The Saturday after my Brothers confinement, about eight of the clock in the morning, I having heard of it, came into the House, and in a quarter of an hours time in comes a Waterman, and desires an handful or two of sha­vings. I knowing not who he was, nor what he desired them for, told him he should have them; so he went up to the working-shop togather them, for he pretended that to be his business.

Whose Waterman was it?

A Waterman, I suppose, that belonged to His Majesty, for he had a Coat marked with R. C.

This is after I was in custody.

Yes, it was the Saturday after. So no sooner had he the shavings, but he goes out of the Shop, and comes in again with three of his Majesties Messengers, and they made enquiry after papers, and I being innocent of concealing any papers, or any thing, said I knew of none; so they came to one box that had the Tools for the men to work with, and they demanded the keys: I told him, I knew not where the keys were: So they went to the next, and found it open, but nothing did they find there; there was a Bed wherein formerly my Brother's Servants did lye. Said one to the other, look well whether there be not something hid in that bed; said I, I suppose there is no such thing as you inquire for: if you please, you may take off the clothes, and gave them free toleration to look; but for the chest, I would not deliver the keys, because the man was not there that owned it. In their searching they flung down the Wainscote, and did a great deal of damage to his Goods. Gentlemen, said I, I suppose you have order to search, but none to spoil a mans Goods. When they were gone, having found none, they threatned, God dam them they would have them, for there they were. But I being ignorant of the concealment of the papers, I requested the Maid and my Brothers Son, whether they knew of any papers, and they satisfied me they knew of some prints that were brought by a Porter, to be left at my Brothers, but they knew not whence they came, nor what they were: and the same answer gave my Brother's Son, that he did not know whose the papers were. But since his Fathers confinement, they were laid up sure and safe, for they knew not what they concerned. Upon this, my Lord, my Brother in-law George Spur, he comes into the House, and if it please your Honour, I requested him to carry them into the Countrey to his House, to secure them till we knew what they did concern, and who they did belong to. Whereupon he replied, my Lord, that he was fearful to carry any thing out of the House; said I, if you will please to take them of me, I will [Page 102] carry them out of the House for your security, because his Wife looked every hour (be­ing with child) when she should be delivered, and he was fearful of troubling her. So I carried them out of the House, and delivered them to him.

To whom?

To my Brother-in-law Mr. George Spur. So at my going out, after I had delivered them to him, in my way back again. I found a small Paper-book, and a small parcel of Writings; who dropped them, or who laid them there, I cannot tell. But taking them up unadvisedly, I put them among the Prints, which I carried out; I delivered them to my Brother-in-law. This is all I have to say as to the papers.

Three parts of what she hath said is false.

Well, hold you your tongue.

Mr. Atterbury is here, my Lord, that searched the house.

Be pleased to give me my Oath, I will tell you what passed.

We don't think it material, but you were sworn before, stand up.

Tell the manner of finding the papers. This woman gives us an account of a Waterman that came in, pretending to fetch shavings—

Upon my Oath it was not so. The Waterman was a Waterman that brought me and two more of my Fellows, and the Waterman followed us into the yard, but came after us: and being ordered to look for papers, I did search the House; for I had Intelligence that there were papers there, but I did not find them there. But upon finding the first papers, I made the more diligent search, but could not find the rest I most chiefly sought after.

Did the Kings Waterman take any shavings by himself?

We were all together, we did not move out of any one Room, but toge­ther; this Gentlewoman was in the House when I came, and there was a little child, a girl, and this maid was there.

Did you come for shavings there, Mr. Atterbury?

No, I did not.

The Waterman did though first.

Call George Spur. (But he did not appear.) But Mr. Atterbury, before you go down, pray tell the Court, did you take any of these papers at my House, or at my Bro­ther-in-law Spurs House?

My Lord, I took the papers, and I took them at Bushy at Spurs House. And this woman carried out one half to Spur, and the maid carried out the other.

When did he carry them?

The same day they searched for them, for my Brother came in at the same time.

How do you know Spur carried any?

He carried none out of the House, I carried them out of the House and delivered them to him.

Then they were in the House.

They were in the Counting-House?

My Lord, if they were in any other place, I know not how they came there, for this was done after I was a prisoner; and Sewel says they were removed when I was a prisoner. Where is George Spur?

It is admitted they were at your House, and taken thence, and after­wards carried to Spurs.

They carried them abroad, and handed them from one to another, and took them into the Countrey, I know not what they did with them; but my Lord, I neither know the Printer nor the Author, I declare it upon my life.

Have you any more Witnesses?

No, my Lord, I have not.

Will you that are of Counsel for the King call any more?

One or two if you please, my Lord. Call John Shirland. And it is to this purpose, it seems very lately Mr. Bolron would have tempted him to have for­sworn himself.

My Lord, I hope, if they bring in any persons of new Evidence, I may have leave to contradict them.

You need not fear but you shall be heard to them.

We shall prove Bolron to be a Subornor of Witnesses; and that the Jury may know what he is, he and Mowbray have gone to give Evidence at several Tri­als, and the Jury would never believe them when they were upon their Oath.

I think it needs not, time hath been spent enough already.

No whispering, good my Lord.

Good Mr. Colledge, you are not to tell me my duty here.

It is not lawful for the Kings Counsel to confer together?

Not to whisper, my Lord, all ought to be spoken out.

Nothing ought to be said to the Jury indeed privately.

But shall not we talk among our selves?

No, I hope, not of any thing that concerns my Trial.

You are deceived in that.

I think tis Law, that all ought to be publick, I beg your pardon if I am in the wrong.

Swear John Shirland. (Which was done.) Pray give the Court and the Jury an accompt of Bolron, what you knew of him.

Bolron my Lord, last Whitson-Tuesday, would have given me ten pound and an Horse to go down and swear against Sir Miles Stapleton. I was to swear I was suborned by his Friends, and several other persons, which I have discovered upon my Oath.

Is this man sworn?

Yes.

Now call Bolron to confront him.

He offered you an Horse, as much as I offered Turbervile an Horse, and I never offered Him an Horse in the world.

Is this the man, Shirland?

Did he give you Ten pound to swear?

He bid me Ten pound and an Horse to swear against Sir Miles Stapleton.

Did you ever see him, Bolron?

Yes, my Lord, he was to have been a Witness against Sir Miles Staple­ton, and he pretended that he was suborned by Sir Miles, or some of his friends.

What are you, Sir? Mr. Bolron, what is Mr. Shirland?

He is a man lives by his Shifts: He hath been whip'd in Bridewel.

Do you know him, Sir? What is he?

Even an idle man.

You, once when you saw me, drew your Sword on me, because I would not do as you would have me.

I profess, my Lord, 'tis not so.

Here is Mr. Smith, hear what he says against Mr. Bolron.

As we were coming up along, he was speaking to me of Colledge, and told me, he had as much to say against him as any body; and if I would speak for him, he would evidence againce Sir John Brookes for a discourse at Ferry-bridge.

I never did hear any such thing.

No man in your own Country will believe you.

They believed you no more, it seems neither.

Do you call any more Witnesses, Gentlemen?

No, I think, we need not.

Look you, Mr. Colledge, as I understand it, the Kings Counsel will produce no more Witnesses. You may make what Observations you will upon the Evidence to the Court, and then must them make what Observations they will to the Court; and then we will give the Charge to the Jury.

My Lord, I have only innocence to pleade; I have no Flourishes to set off my Desence. I cannot take the Jury nor the Court with an Oratory; I am unhappy in those things. But, my Lord, I do declare, as to my own particular, in the presence of God Almighty, that as to whatsoever is sworn against me, as to the seizing his Ma­jesty, providing Arms, or having any Design either at Oxford or London, or any other place in the world, to seize upon the person of the King, or to rebel against the Govern­ment established; I vow to God Almighty, I never had such a thought in me: 'tis a truth, my Lord. My Lord, they have sworn desperately against me, and it hath appeared, I think, by very credible persons, that they have contradicted one another. It hath been proved that it was a Design; that they were tampered withal; that they complain­ed they were in poverty, that they wanted maintenance; and they did confess they were tempted to come over to swear against Protestants: and now the Lord knows they have closed with it, and they begin with me. I hope the Jury have taken notice that I have contradicted them sufficiently in what they have sworn; and that it is not possible, if I had a grain of sence, for me to discover my self to be such an one to Haynes [Page 105] that was an Irish-man, and should speak all the Treason that he hath galloped through at first sight, that as soon as ever I saw him, that I should speak so to him; I hope you will consider whether it consists with common Reason, when there could be no proba­bility of making any use of him in the world. My Lord, all my Witnesses that I have brought, your Lordship can, and I hope will sum them up better than I can; for I de­clare it, I have been so concerned, that I have not been able to write half of it down. But I think there is never a man that hath sworn against me, but hath been sufficiently confuted by persons of integrity and Honesty, men of Principles, and men of Religion; they are such, my Lord, that make conscience of what they say: they are persons altogether unknown to me, most of them, as to what they had to say; it was what they offered voluntarily; and I am certain they have had nothing but their bare charges, if they had that, for their pains in coming hither; and, my Lord, there is no probability that they should come and attest any thing that is false, for me who am a stranger, for nothing: No man is a Knave for nothing, as I believe these men are not. My Lord, I do declare it, I was bred a Protestant, and I have lived so; I am so this very day; I have been a lover of the Church of England, and of all the fundamental points of Do­ctrine believed in it; I own the same God, the same Saviour, the same Gospel, and the same Faith; I never had a prejudice against any man in the Church in my life, but such as have made it their business to promote the interest of the Papists, and such I must beg leave to say there are amongst them: for there is no Society in the world without some bad men; and these do promote the interest of the Papists, by dividing the Prote­testants and allowing none to be true Protestants, but those that are within the Church of England established by Law; which is a Notion so wide I could never close with that. I never had a prejudice against any man but a Knave in my life. I have heard, I con­fess, some of the Dissenters, and I have found very honest, just, pious, godly men among them; men free from Oaths and all Debauchery; men that make a conscience of what they say: not like some persons that say they are of the Church of England, that carry themselves in their lives and actions, so as that no credit can be gained to the Church by them. My Lord, I have been an hearty man against the Papists; I have been an hearty man as any person of my condition for Parliaments, which I look upon to be my Birth-right, and under God Almighty, the Bulwark of our Liberty; and I am sorry if any man should be an instrument to create a misunderstanding betwixt the King and the Parliament: for I always thought I served my Country, when I served the Parliament, and I served the King, when I served my Country. I never made any difference be­tween them, because I thought them both one. I had the Honour to be entrusted by them before, and upon that account I came voluntarily down hither. I rid my own Horse, I spent my own money, and eat my own Bread; I was not beholding to any man for the value of six pence all the while I was here. My Lord, I have ever since the Plot hath been discovered, endeavered with all my heart, and all my power, to de­dect and come at the very bottom of it: I have spared for no time nor pains, what lay fairly in my way, in every thing to encourage those that discovered the Villanies of the Popish Plot against the Life of the King, and for the Subversion of the Religion and Go­vernment [Page 106] established by Law. Now certainly it is not strange to the world; for I think all Christendom is aware how plain the Popish Plot hath been proved. These men that swear against me, were they that used to follow me sometimes; they would say, it was they that had come to save our lives, and yet we let them want Bread. That argument, my Lord, was so fair, that I thought it unreasonable to see them starve: And I have said sometimes to some honest considerable men, that it was hard they should have this to say of us, that they should want Bread to eat that were the Kings Evidence, to detect a Popish Plot wherein we our selves were concerned; and that when they had saved our blood in our veins, they should be suffered to starve. And one time, I think, some three or four Gentlemen of the City did give me 42 s. or 40 s. and 8 d. or thereabouts; which I did distribute amongst them: And they never came to me in my life, but to seek relief, they knowing that I had a general acquaintance. And sometimes they thought it might be fit to petition the Common Council of London to take care of them: Sometimes they would speak to particular men that care should be taken of them. At other times indeed it was not this sort of discourse they had with me; but they would pretend they had something to discover of the Popish Plot, and so they would apply to me as a man of some acquain­tance. And the first time I saw Haynes was upon such an account, the beginning of March last, and it was thus: I was at Richard's Coffee-House at Temple-Bar, where Macnamarra did desire me to go out, and I should hear such a piece of Roguery I never did hear in my life, against my Lord Shaftsbury. So I did go out with them, and I called Captain Brown, who is since dead, to go with me; and we went to the Hercules Pillars, and Haynes there discovered what I told your Lordship before, a design to destroy the Par­liament at Oxford, an Army that was to land in the North, another in Ireland, and the Duke of York was to be at the head of them. My Lord, after I had heard all out, he did desire us all to conceal what he had said till the Parliament sat, and then he would not on­ly discover this, but much more. He at the same time told us, that there was a design of Fitz-Gerald's against my Lord Shaftsbury to take away his life, and he was employed to come to his Cousin Macnamarra to get him over to joyn in the design, and he should never want for money, if he would but come over, and do as they would have him. After he had discovered himself, Sir, said I, you are a stranger to me, and I never saw him before in my days, if he had seen me, I can't tell: But, Sir, said I, either this is true, or this is false. If it be true, said he, 'tis all true, and much more. So he up and told us much of Cole­man, and of the reconciliation between the Duke of Ormond and the Duke of York, and how he came to be Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and how Plunket came to be Primate, and by means of whom, and the Letters that passed, and how so much a year was given to Plun­ket for carrying on the correspondence; and he told us so much, that I did wonder to hear any man talk after that rate. After I had heard what he had to say, I told him, Sir, said I, this is either true or false that you have said; if it be true, my Lord Shaftsbury shall know it to night; for I will not conceal such a thing concerning a Peer of the Realm: and if it were a colour, he should know of it. And I did send him word that night; and, said I, Sir, you ought to go, for your own security and ours too, to swear it before a Ma­gistrate. Said he, if I should, I should be discovered. Said I, I can't think you will be [Page 107] discovered; if you swore it before Sir George Treby, or Sir Robert Clayton, they will not discover you. So he agreed he would swear before Sir George Treby, and he did go accordingly; but he being out of Town, I cannot have the Affidavit to produse it. There was a Letter sent last Saturday-night to Sir George to Bristol, and I hoped he might have been here to day. This was the first acquaintance I ever had with Haynes The next time I heard of him, was upon this occasion: Ivy comes to me in Richard's Coffee-House, and, said he, yonder is the man that made that discovery, which I told you before that Haynes had said to me; it was about a month or three weeks before the Parliament was at Oxford. After the Parliament was dissolved at Oxford, Ivy comes to me, and I think it was betwixt the two Terms wherein Fitz-Harris was Arraigned and Tried: I know not the names of them, but he comes to me and tells me he had been with my Lord Shaftsbury, and that there was a friend of his that would confirm all that Fitz-Harris had discovered concerning the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey; and, says he, my Lord of Shafts­bury hath sent me to you to acquaint you with it. Where is your friend, said I? He is without, said he. So we went out of the Coffee-House, and when we came out of doors, there was this Haynes: we went to the Crown-Tavern without Temple-Bar, it was in the forenoon. When we came there into the room, he examined all the corners, and cup­boards, and places about the room, to see that no body was there. When he thought all was secure, he began to tell me he had been to acquaint my Lord Shaftsbury that there was a friend of his that would discover the whole Intrigue of the murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey, all that Fitz-Harris had said, and much more: And he desired me that I would intreat my Lord Shaftsbury to be instrumental to get him his Pardon before he discover'd particularly. Then I told him, I think 'tis convenient, said I, that you discover something in writing, and give under your hand what you can say. He was not willing to do that. Can you believe, said I, that my Lord of Shaftsbury will betray you? Says he, I will not trust any body; I shall be assassinated. Said I, if you will not give it to any body else, will you give it to Mr. Michael Godfrey, Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's Brother? you can have no jealousie of Him, that He will ever discover you: said he, if my Lord Shafts­bury will engage to get me a Pardon, I will tell the whole truth: said I, I will go to my Lord and acquaint him: so I went to both my Lord and Mr. Godfrey, and Sir Edmund­bury Godfrey's two Brothers both met me at my Lord of Shaftsbury's House. This is the thing that he tells me; he would have me get my Lord's Protection, and a Pardon for Treason: But the real truth is, He sent me upon this errand: so I came to my Lord Shaftsbury, and the two Mr. Godfreys were in the room; and after I had told my Lord what discourse I had with Him, says my Lord, Colledge, these Irish-men have confoun­ded all our business; and thou and I must have a care they do not put a trick upon us; this may be a trick of the Papists to ruine us; and if they have such a design, if they will not put it upon you and I, they are fools. Upon your Lordship, said I, they may; but I am a poor inconsiderable fellow. Says my Lord, I'll tell you, Mr. Godfrey; Mr. Colledge hath not only been an Honest man, but a useful and an active man for the Protestant in­terest. So I told my Lord how far I had gone with Him, and that I desired it might be put in writing: says my Lord Shaftsbury, if he will put it in writing, I will go once again, [Page 108] for I have been since I saw the fellow, with my Lord Macclesfield, and my Lord Chief Justice Pemberton, and my Lord Chancellor, and I have told them that there is such a person in general, but I knew not the man, as indeed my Lord did not; for only Ivy was the person between them that my Lord knew: And I told them, says my Lord, that he can confirm all that Fitz-Harris has said concerning the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey, and that he would prove my Lord of Danby was in it, if he might have his pardon; and my Lord said, they promised to speak to his Majesty that it might be granted. But some time the latter end of the week I heard it would not be granted; and both of these men followed me to know what they should do. Said I, my Lord Shaftsbury knows not but that it may be a trick; and, said I to Ivy, I wonder why he should conceal it all this while, be­ing a necessitous man, and 500 l. proffered by the King in his Proclamation. Why, says Ivy, do you think there is no truth in it? says I, 'tis not my judgment, but my Lord Shafts­bury and Mr. Godfrey's judgment too. He answered me again, Fitz-Harris hath de­sired he may have a pardon granted for himself and a French-man; and if so be there were nothing in it, do you think he would move for a pardon? Says I, did Mr. Fitz-Harris move for Haynes's pardon? How do I know that, says Ivy again: Fitz-Harris's Wife told me so. Says I, let me speak with Fitz-Harris's Wife, let me hear her say so, and I will believe you. The next day he did bring her to me to my House; and this was the time and the occasion that brought Fitz-Harris's VVife, and Haynes, and Ivy, and Mr. Fitz-Harris's maid to my House; and I never saw Fitz-Harris in my days till his Tryal, nor had any communication with him. But, my Lord, she did talk with Haynes, and confirmed it to me, that her Husband had desired a pardon for him: why then, said I, he would do well to discover what he knows to my Lord Shaftsbury; for I was with my Lord, and he says he will meddle no more, unless he will give it under his hand what he has to say: And he did confess to me in my own yard, for there we were together, that he saw my Lord of Danby come into the Chappel at Sommerset-House, when the body of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey lay under the Altar.

Here hath been nothing of this made appear by proof.

My lord, I only tell you which way they introduced themselves into my ac­quaintance.

You may observe what you will upon the Evidence, as we told you; but you ramble from the matter you are to speak to. And as we told Mr. Attorney, that what he said should go for nothing, unless he made it out by proof; so must we say to you, what you say goes for nothing, further than you have proved it. Now you have quitted the proof quite, and not spoke to that, but run into other stories. I would have you keep your self to your proofs, and make your observations upon them.

'Tis, as I humbly conceive it, to my purpose but I hope my ignorance may ex­cuse me, if I err. I tell you the truth of things, thus it was.

Truth! Why if yours, or any mans word in your case, should go for truth, no man that stands at a Bar could be convicted; for every man will say he is an honest man, and all the plausible things in the world. Make you your observations upon the proof that is proper for you to do; and urge it as well as you can, and to the best pur­pose [Page 109] you can: but to tell us long stories of passages between you and others that are not a whit proved, that is not usual, nor pertinent.

I thought it had been to the point, when this man pretends to have a fami­liarity with me, to shew how his acquaintance begun.

Why, do you think▪ 'tis an answer to him in what he proves upon his Oath? Have you proved one jot of it? not that I have heard. 'Tis your part to sum up the Evidence on your own side, and to answer that which is proved upon you, if you can. Do that, and we will hear you speak to it as long as you can. But to tell stories to amuse the Jury with that are not proved, and to run out into rambling discourses to no purpose, that is not to be allowed, nor never was in any Court of Justice.

Not one of your Witnesses have mentioned any thing that you say.

I wonder, Mr. Colledge, you should forget your self so much: for you found fault with Mr. Attorney at the beginning for opening the Evidence, and you were told, and the Jury were told at your request, that what he said, and did not prove, passed for nothing. But I must tell you, 'tis much worse in your case: for Mr. Attor­ney only opened what he might prove afterwards, but your observations are upon what hath been proved already; and yet you run out into stories of what hath not been proved at all, after your proof is past.

Sir, I could not prove this otherwise than by Ivy, who hath been sworn a­gainst me.

Would you have the Jury to believe you upon your word?

There is no more than his Oath against me; and why my Oath, being an English­man, and a Protestant, should not be taken as well as his that is an Irish man, and hath been a Papist; I know not.

You go upon that ground that your word is to be taken, as appears by your defence; but I must tell you, all the course of Justice were destroyed, and no Justice against malefactors were to be had, if the word of him that is accused should pass for proof to acquit him.

My Lord, I have given your Lordship an account of these fellows conver­sations; and what other proofs to make, I know not: for I knew not what they would swear against me, and I had not witnesses in my pocket to confront them.

Well▪ the Jury have heard it over and over again, first upon your request, that nothing is to be taken notice of that is not proved.

Pray, my Lord, then as to Haynes. My Lord, I do observe that there was a witness for me, that did prove he owned he was one that was employed to make a Protestant Plot, and another that did hear him swear, dam him, he would swear any thing against any body for money; for it was his Trade.

Now you are right; speak as much as you will as to your proofs.

My Lord, I think Turbervile and Dugdale swear as to the tenth of March

I desire it may be proved I was in Oxford the tenth of March.

You your self came down the middle of March.

I do not remember that they said the tenth of March.

Did not the Indictment say so?

It is only in the Indictment.

As to the time mentioned in the Indictment, it is not material; that is the constant rule in Tryals upon Indictments; as if an Horse be laid to be stole the tenth, if it be proved the Prisoner stole it another day, it will be sufficient, the time is not ma­terial; the question is whether the Indictment be true in substance. Mr. Colledge, my Brothers will all tell you that the Law is so.

Though it is laid the tenth of March, yet if it be proved the first or twentieth before or after, it is all one: So the thing be proved, they are not bound to a day.

My Lord, the punctilio's of Law I know not, but it was the twenty fourth or twenty fifth e're I came down.

Well, go on Sir.

Dugdale says I meant by the word Rowley, the King.

He does so.

How does he come to know, that by that word I meant the King?

That we did ask him, and he says you used so to expound it.

Why, look you, He said you and he used to have frequent commu­nication concerning the King and you did most frequently speak of the King by the name of Rowley.

But I say, my Lord, I never spake of the King by the name of Rowley in my life.

You say it, and he swears the contrary.

I don't remember that he says I declared it so, but he said I meant it; for if I had declared it, then it had been the same thing for me to have named the King down­right.

Look you, Mr. Colledge, as to that, when any witness had done his Evdence, you had liberty to cross examine him.

Would you have him called up again to clear this?

Yes, if you please.

Stand up, Mr. Dugdale. I understood by your testimony, when Mr. Col­ledge and you discoursed of the King, you sometimes discoursed of him by the name of Rowley, and that he explained that name to be the King.

The first time I ever heard what Rowley meant, was from him; for I asked him what he meant by the name of Rowley; I heard it before, but I did not un­derstand it.

Where was it?

At Richard's Coffee-House.

What was the answer he made you?

He said it was the King.

Upon what occasion did I explain it to you?

Upon the account of the Pictures.

I know not which of the Pictures has the name of Rowley in it.

It was when we were talking of one of the Pictures you brought in Row­ley; and Mac was the Duke of York, and Rowley was the King.

Upon what Picture was it that I took occasion to explain the name Rowley to you?

I am not certain.

Remember you have an account to give as well as I.

You have so many Pictures that I can't remember them; you have shewed me more than have been produced in Court.

Where had you that Picture from me that they call Raree-Shew?

Truly I received of them twice at Richard's Coffee-House.

Twice, do you say?

Yes, two of them at two several times; for you having promised me one, you brought it according to your word.

When was that?

I did not keep an account of the day of the month; and another I do remem­ber at the Green-Dragon-Tavern you thrust into my pocket, and Mr. Baldwin was by at that time. And, said he, Mr. Colledge, you will be so open, that you will come to be discovered at last.

Then will I be willing to dye for it, if he and I and Mr. Baldwin were at the Green-Dragon-Tavern together. When was it that I gave you any Pictures there? was it since the Parliament at Oxon.

Do I charge you since the Parliament?

I never saw Raree-Shew before the Parliament at Oxord.

I do not say it was that; you gave me one of the others.

'Tis strange you will stick to nothing. VVhen was it we were at the Green-Dragon-Tavern;

We were there before the Parliament sat at Oxon, it was since Christmass.

VVhat Picture was it I gave you there?

It may be I can't remember which of them it was, it was not Raree-Shew; I suppose you gave me one of them concerning the Bishops, where you put Bishop Mew kissing the Pope's Toe; for it was a Bishop with a patch on, and that you told me was Bishop Mew.

I put it, did I make it?

You said you were the Author.

Mr. Colledge; Will you consider upon what Mr. Dugdale was called up about, the exposition of the name of Rowley.

I did examine him, and he hath contradicted himself; for he hath said at the Green Dragon-Tavern I gave him a Picture of Raree-Shew.

He said no such thing, He said he did not know which it was.

I am certain he meant that then when he spake it; for he named it before, that he had two from me at Richard's Coffee-House, and one I thrust into his pocket at [Page 112] the Tavern; and I say I never was at the Green-Dragon-Tavern with Mr. Dugdale and Mr. Baldwyn, nor in the Tavern these three quarters of a year.

Mr. Colledge, you were in the right just now, to manage your E­vidence, in opposition to the other Evidence; go on that way.

My Lord, I don't know well what was said, for I could not hear half, nor write a quarter of it; but, my Lord, I hope your Lordship has taken Notes of it, and will re­member it for me. You are my Counsel as well as my Judges.

In matter of Fact we are.

My Life and your Souls lye at stake to do me Justice; therefore I hope you will take notice of what I have not had the opportunity to write down. I have observed that every one of my Witnesses have spoken materially to contradict what they have said, to prove that this was done for money, and that there hath been confessions from every man of them; that they were hired to do it; that they did it for a livelyhood; and one of them said; It was a good Trade, dam him, he would do any thing for money: And I hope then you will consider the improbability, that I should speak to an Irishman who I had never seen before in my life; and that I should at the first dash utter all that Treason that he gives in Evidence, I think it cannot consist with any mans understanding to believe me to be so [...] mad or so weak.

That is as to Haynes only.

As to Smith now I suppose it does not come within the reach of the Statute; for the Dinner that was made by Alderman Wilcox was made before last July was twelve­month; all the Witnesses do say it was before Christmas, and Dr. Oates says it was in the Summer; I know it by a very good observation, because I went to Astrop Waters after that, and I saw Sir Creswell Levinz at the Wells: Now Sir you were there before this time twelvemonth. So then whatever he says I said to him there, I cannot be charged with­al by the Statute, more or less, if I had never a Witness against him; but I have Witnesses that have contradicted him sufficiently, that he is forsworn in that; and if so, he is not to be believed in any thing else; for he says, He & I went to the Coffee-House together, and we discoursed such and such things, which is not above half a Bows shoot, and he made it I say a quarter of a miles discourse; if I had had all the talk, the discourse could not be so long, tho' he had said never a word: so you see what a kind of Witness he is. And Dr. Oates's Brother did say, that I did go along with Dr. Oates, and offered to be one of his Guard, and I did so, and went along with them, but Mr. Smith he came after. And as to what he says he is sufficiently confuted, that is, about the going into Cabals after Dinner; for it is proved, that I fell asleep behind the Table, and Dr. Oates was dis­coursing with Mr. Savage upon points of Divinity; but I took no notice of it, neither did I see Smith any more, but he went away, and so did the rest of the company. But, my Lord, when Haynes was taken, Smith comes to me that day to my House at the Ditch-side, and sends in a man for me, his man; I was writing in my Parlour, and drawing the De­sign for Wainscoting Alhallows Church, a Platform for it; his man told me, His Master would speak with me, and Haynes was taken that morning: But as I understand since, it was by agreement and his own consent, tho' he hath pretended otherwise. You hear, [Page 113] says he, Haynes is taken? Yes, says I, I do, he hath been ever since 9 a clock before the Secretary upon examination, and he was till 5 a clock at night examining: said he, I be­lieve he confesses a great deal: Said I, of what? Said he, of some design of the Prote­stants: Said I, what, against the Government? I do not know what they may affright him into; He is a great Rogue if it be true all that he hath said of himself: He says he was concerned in the Fire of London, and knew of a design to destroy the Protestants then; of a Rebellion that was to be in Ireland; of Plunket's being made Primate, and a great many of those things: So that if he speaks truth, he hath been a great Rogue, and as he hath pretended also, he was a great coward. So then I believe he may say any thing to excuse himself: Says Mr. Smith, I wish you are safe. This was the very night before I was taken.

Have you proved any thing of this?

My Lord, Pray give me leave to tell you what is proof.

You are not to repeat this, unless you prove it, Sir.

He spake cautiously to me, as if he would have intimated to me he would have had me run away. Said he, I believe you are not safe, I would have you take care of your self, for you were concerned with him. Now, my Lord, if I had been a guilty per­son, I had time enough to get away; and to prove this, I can only say this was betwixt him and I. But, my Lord, you hear Dr. Oates says, that this very Smith did swear he would hare my blood, and that was upon this occasion of my vindicating Sampson, whom he had struck and abused; and I asked why he did it? Said he, I value no mans life, if he affront me, if 'tis any man in England, I value him not. My Lord, upon this occasion the words rise between us; and when he came out of doors, and was going away Dr. Oates said, He swore he would have my blood, and that was the occasion of his speaking that Blasphemy.

Dr. Oates did say so.

Well, you are right now, if you will go on in that way.

My Lord, this is for Smith and Haynes, that Haynes should say it was a good Trade, and dam him, he would swear any thing for money; and that Smith should swear, dam him he would have my blood. I cannot sum up the rest of them, for I have not them here.

There is Turbervile, and Dugdale, and Smith; we will help you as to the persons.

Pray keep to the business, and do not run out.

Pray, my Lord, I have one thing to say about Smith; He says I shewed him my Arms, which I have had for any time almost these three years, ever since the Plot brake out. I have been armed ready to oppose the Papists, and I did my duty in the City in person in the Trained-Bands, but Smith says these Arms were to destroy the Kings Guards, but he does not prove that I was confederate with any other person, but in­stead of that there were other persons that say with his own mouth, that he did not believe there was any Protestant Plot; nay, he did believe I said it only in wantonness. This is all, then how probable was it, that I my self should seize the King, or destroy his Guards.

You remember Captain Brown, Captain Chuton, and Don Lewes, Mr. Colledge.

Did he swear they were all in my company at Oxon.

Yes, Dugdale did.

My Lord, Captain Brown and Lewes were friends to my Lord Howard, with whom and other company I came down to Oxon. and they lay with me at the Chequer, and they were in my company because they were Guests in the House, and we came along together, but he does not say they were either of them armed more than my self, nor was he ever in company with us; how then does he know we were in a conspiracy?

Because you told him at London first that they were such persons.

I never saw Lewes in my days till I saw him that morning I came down from Oxon. and Brown I was not acquainted with a fortnight before. This is a truth, but how­ever they have sworn a Plot upon me at Oxon. and then come and prove I declared these were the men, and spoke such and such words at London; I desire your Lordships Judg­ment in this matter of Law, whether what be done at London can be sufficient matter of proof in Law to maintain an Indictment against me at Oxon. And if not, they do not prove legally that I have spoken such words. Besides I conceive 'tis not a good proof, because there is but one Witness.

Yes, look you, there are two Witnesses, Dugdale and Turbervile, as to what you said at Oxon. and two Witnesses as to what you said at London, Haynes and Smith, who testifie what you said you would do at Oxon. Now in case you came to Oxon. with any such intention, that coming to Oxford is an Overt-act, and the Witnes­ses that speak what you said in London, is Evidence to maintain the Indictment here, and to prove what your intention was.

Does that become an Overt-act if I go to Oxon. upon an honest occasion, any other occasion, though I had said these words before.

If you came with that intent to joy with others, and with a real purpose to seize the King, that is the Overt-act, and the words before prove the intention.

He declared it himself by his words.

Smith says that about a week after Wilcox's Dinner, I discoursed with him at the Ditch side, that comes not within the compass of the Statutes. Then there is twice of the 3 times he speaks of, the last day I do not remember when it was.

All was in London that Smith speaks of you.

How comes that to be proof here, then nothing he says is to go for any thing.

Nothing will serve your turn; we have declared our opinions once already, that if the Witnesses swear true, here are two Witnesses; nay, if one were of what was done at London, and the other of what was done at Oxon. if they be to the same Treason, they be two Witnesses in Law.

My Lord, I observe one thing upon Turberviles Evidence, he swears there was a discourse in the Room when Brown was upon the Bed, but afterwards if your Lordship minds it, he says, I discoursed with him as he and I lay upon the bed. Before he said when Brown lay upon the bed, and in the Room, and afterwards when we lay upon the bed.

Both the one and the other.

But he said first one way, and then the other.

Whilst Brown lay upon the bed, and when he was gone, whilst you both lay upon the bed.

We will do you no wrong, therefore if you will, Turbervile shall stand up and clear it.

My Lord, I believe those that have taken the passages can prove he contra­dicted himself in that.

He said both. But the Jury have taken notes of the Evidence, and will take notice of it.

As to Mr. Masters, the Evidence he gives was, he says that he and I should dis­course of the Parliament in 40.

And the justifiableness of the late Kings Death, that they had done nothing but what they had just cause to do.

He swears that I did say to him, that the late Parliament did not cut off the Kings Head.

And you said the last Parliament that sate at Westminster was of the same opinion with that in 40.

I dare appeal to Esquire Charlton, in whose shop the discourse was. I did not know that Mr. Masters was to be an Evidence against me, and truly they have taken that course with me, by which any man may be destroyed with half this Evidence, were they of good credit, let his innocence be what it will. I have been used so barbarously in the Tower, kept from all conversation, and so in an utter ignorance of what was sworn a­gainst me; for else I coud easily have disproved Mr. Masters, if I had been in London, and had liberty to provide for my defence; but they have taken a course to prevent that, and brought me hither because 'tis impossible I should here defend my self.

You have not offered any Witness to impeach Mr. Masters credit.

Mr. Masters discourse He speaks of was in Mr. Charltons Shop, I durst have ap­pealed to him about it, for I know if he were here he would do me right. Mr. Masters did say the Parliament cut off the late Kings Head. We held a dispute upon that which I was not willing to enter into; I said they did not, and we did then dispute whether they began the War against His Majesty: I said they did not that I knew of, neither were they the persons, but the Papists that began that War, and that broke off the Ereaty at Uxbridge, and that the Papists carryed it on to that sad issue, and put it upon the Protestants, that they had the odium of it, but it was another sort of men that carryed it on. I said that I did always understand that Parliament to be an honest Parliament, that minded the true interest of the Nation, and much of the same opinion with the Parliament that sate last at Westminster. But before I said this, I said they were persons altogether innocent of the Kings murder, and raising the War against the King, I did always understand that so the Parliament in 40 were.

But they were guilty of a Rebellion, and are declared so by Act of Parlia­ment since His Majesty came in.

My Lord, I am unacquainted with the Law, I speak only my own sense of it. And my Lord, I did excuse them as to the murder of the King, and the beginning of the War, that according to my understanding they were not guilty of it, and from thence I did main­tain they were an honest good Parliament, and much of opinion with the Parliament that sat last at Westminster, which was for the true interest of the Nation.

And was that the true Interest of the Nation, to cut off the Kings Head?

I did argue that with him some time, and I did tell him that it was the Papists that did all the mischief.

But he says no, upon his Oath, that when he had said, the Parlia­ment begun the Rebellion, and the Parliament did cut off the Kings Head, you said the Parliament did nothing but what they had just cause for, and the Parliament that sat last at Westminster was of the same mind.

Those were his words.

Pray let him be called again.

Let Mr. Masters stand up again.

Pray Sir relate the whole discourse that passed between you and I, whether I did not argue with you it was not the Parliament cut off the Kings Head, nor begun the war, but the Papists.

No, you did not say any such thing. We had a great deal of discourse in the shop, and under the Arch, and the thing that was said, Mr. Colledge, was this. You did say to me that you did justifie the late long Parliament of 40. and then proceedings, and you said they were a Parliament that did nothing but what they had just cause for: said I, how can you be so impudent to say so, when they raised the Rebellion against the King and cut off his Head: said he again, they did nothing but what they had just cause for, and the Parliament that sat last at Westminster were of the same opinion.

I did you no wrong in repeating the Evidence, you see, Mr. Colledge.

Did I not first dispute with you that, they did not begin the War, nor cut off the King, but the Papists did it.

Look you Mr. Colledge, you would have had it the King began the War.

Don't you say so, for I said the Papists began the War. Sir say no more to me than what you will answer to God Almighty; for I always said the Papists did all the mis­chief in the late times: and I wonder Sir you would not be so just to His Majesty as to de­tect me for what I said then, if you did apprehend it to be as you now say; but I am sure you did not nor could not.

Mr. Colledge, it was so far from that, that I was afraid it was of dangerous consequence, and I gave some Persons of Honour an accompt of it, and I was sent to but on Friday last, to know what it was was said, and I was desired and commanded to come down hither.

Pray Mr. Masters, you are upon your Oath, do me but Justice, and speak upon your own conscience; look you to it that you speak the truth.

I will do you all the right I can in the world.

Then before the Court do you declare whether we did not discourse at that time as I said, for this discourse was at Mr. Charltons shop at the further end.

No it was at the entrance into the shop, Mr. Colledge; and did not we go into the Arch and talk there.

Mr. Masters don't trouble your self, your Reputation is not upon the level with that Gentlemans.

I desire he may speak the very truth, and nothing but the truth.

I do as near as I can, and do you no wrong; you did not in your dis­course say the Parliament did not begin the War, nor cut off the Kings Head.

You did say to me they did cut off the Kings Head, and I told you no, the Papists did.

I think you did say that the Papists had an Hand in it; but, Sir, you have left out the most material part of our discourse, which was, that you said they did nothing but what they had just cause for.

I do say, and it was my sense always, that the Parliament did not cut off the Kings Head, for they were long out of doors before that came to pass, and a new unhappy War was begun.

The War was a Rebellion on the Parliaments part, let us not mince the matter, and so it was declared by Act of Parliament; and if you argued it after that rate, it shews your temper, and that you are a very ill man; for they that justifie such things as to the time passed; would lead us to the same things again if they could. Therefore don't go about to palliate it, ad faciendum populum here, 'tis nothing to the matter, but only to shew your principles, and the Jury have heard what Mr. Masters says.

I was then a child, and do not know all the passages, but I speak my sense.

You should not have justified such things.

Who appointed the High Court of Justice that tryed the King and condemned him but the Parliament?

It was the Garbage of that Parliament I am sure, that is the Rump, but they called themselves the Parliament of England, and the Parliament it was that be­gun the War.

My Lord, I did not know, nor don't know that it is proved yet, that the Parliament were those that did cut off the Kings Head. I don't know, Mr. Masters is pleas'd to say this of me; but I thought no evil, nor did he understand it so I believe at that time, for he did not seem to take advantage of my discourse. I know he talked violently and passionately with me, as he used to do; and for Mr. Masters to say this of me now, is a great unkindness; for I thought he was so much a Gentleman, that if I had spoken any thing that had not become me, he would have taken notice of it then.

He did then he tells you.

Had I known of it, I am sure Mr. Charleton would have done me justice, and set things right; but this I say, I did first excuse the Parliament from being concerned in the Murder of the King, or that they did begin the War, but the Papists did it: if it were otherwise, it was more than I understood; and after that I said, I thought that the Par­liament that sate last at Westminster, did stand up for the Peoples Rights, after the same manner that the Parliament in 40. did.

What, just after the same manner, in raising War and Rebellion a­gainst the King?

After I had discoursed it thus, my Lord, as I told you, it could not be understood that I thought that Parliament would cut off the King's Head: And therefore you that are my Jury, pray consider, and take it all together, there could be no such meaning made of my words; for I did not conceive that that Parliament were concerned in those things, but were a Parliament that stood up for the rights of the people: Now if it were so, then the Parliament at Westminster were of the same opinion.

I tell you, the long Parliaments levying War, is declared Rebellion by Act of Parliament.

My Lord, if there hath been an Act since that says they were guilty of Rebel­lion, I declare it 'tis more than ever I knew before. This is the first time that ever I heard of it.

You are a mighty learned Gentleman to talk of those points indeed.

My Lord, I desire to know whether any words that were spoken 6 months before they gave in their Depositions, can be a sufficient Evidence in Law against me now.

'Tis upon the Act of the 13th. of this King you speak.

Yes, my Lord, I take it upon that Statute.

I tell you, as to that part of the Statute which concerns Misdemeanors, there is a particular clause for prosecution, by order of King or Council; but as to that part of the Statute that concerns Treason, it must be prosecuted within six months, and the Indictment within three months after.

VVhat Statute is this Indictment grounded upon?

All Statutes that concern Treason.

Upon the Statute of the 25 of Edw. 3. which declares the Common-Law, and the Statute of the 13. of this King, which when you have done, I will have read to the Jury.

Then pray, my Lord, let me ask you one question; whether the Statute of the 25th. of Edw. 3. does not say that there shall be two positive witnesses to Treason?

No, but there is another that does.

I am ignorant of the Law, and therefore I ask the question.

Well, I will tell you, there must be two witnesses in the case, but one witness to one fact at one time, and another witness to another fact at another time, will be sufficient Evidence to maintain an Indictment of Treason; this was told you in the morning.

And it was told you withal, that it was the resolution of all the Judges in the case of my Lord Stafford when he was tryed in Parliament.

They proved fact in that case, writing of Letters, and offering money to kill the King; but nothing of fact is proved against me, but riding into the Countrey with Arms that I had three years before.

We will read the Statute of the 13th. wherein words are declared to be Treason

I pray it may be read, if you please.

Look you here, to compass or imagine the imprisonment of the King, and to express it by malicious and advised speaking, when proved by two lawful witnesses, is Treason by this Act.

Now whether you will distinguish, that there must be two witnesses to di­stinct places or times, or whether the Statute intends two witnesses to every particular fact and words.

We told you our opinion before, that one witness to one fact, and another to another of the same Treason, was sufficient. We are upon our Oaths in it, and speak not our own opinions, but what hath received publick resolution in cases of the like consequence.

VVhat lies before these Gentlemen of the Jury, as done at Oxon. 'tis but upon a single testimony.

Nay, Mr. Dugdale and Mr. Turbervile both swear the same thing, your design to seize the King at Oxon. And it would be the difficultest thing in the world to prove Treason against any man, if the Law were not so, and a man might commit all sorts of Treason securely; for to be sure he would never say the same things before two witnesses in one time, and the King would be in no sort safe; for there would never be two witnesses to one and the same thing: but that hath been resolved often and often, over and over again, particularly in my Lord Stafford's case, as you have been told.

My Lord, you say the King is not safe upon those terms, and no private man is safe in the other way.

We say that the Law is so, and there is good reason for it.

We must not alter nor depart from the allowed received Law.

I say the thing hath been considered in other cases, and the Law hath been adjudged and setled. It was so resolved in my Lord Stafford's case, when the Judges, by the command of the Parliament did deliver their opinion upon that point moved by him.

There is nothing of Fact proved against me but a pair of Pistols, a Sword, and an Horse.

We have told you the Law, and answered your question.

But as the case stands, if that be the law, all society and conversation must be ruined by it.

Pray go on, when do you think we shall have done else?

However I do not insist upon that so much, as that the testimonies and oaths of these men are altogether invalidated, by substantial persons that have here testified against them. I do declare upon my salvation, (I have nothing else to say) I am wholly innocent, and the Jury are my Judges; and I beseech them, as they will answer me at the great day of Judgment, where they must appear as sure as I stand at this Bar now, that they do me right, and go according to their own consciences; for if a man shall be sworn against by such fellows as these are, no man is safe.

The worse, the better to be trusted by you.

I am sure it cannot be thought by men of common reason, that I should speak Treason at that rate that they have sworn, and to such men, men of their profession, Irish­men, and Papists, Traytors, that have declared they have been in all manner of Rogueries, Murders, Plots, and Treasons. Therefore, my Lord, I cannot do any more for my self, because I have no notes, and cannot recite what hath been said for me, or against me, but I do depend upon your Lordship, and I hope you will inform the Jury rightly, and do me justice; and I do pray the Jury that they let their consciences be satisfied, as they are English-men, and as they are Christians, to consider how the case lyes with me, whether there has not been more occasion of talking of late, and whether a slip of the tongue may be called a premeditated, malicious, advised speaking, I mean my discourse with Mr. Ma­sters. He talked with me as hot as fire, he was so violent, and I did discourse him at that rate I have told you, and that is truth, as I have a Soul to be saved: I did excuse the Parliament, that as I understood it, they had no hand in the beginning of the War, or the murder of the King. My Lord, as for the rest that have sworn against me so desperate­ly, I must say, that if the Jury did not as well consider my Evidence as theirs, yet they might well consider, whether it consists with common sense and reason, that I should speak to these men after this rate, when I could lay no obligation upon them, nor have any con­fidence in them; necessitous persons, that could not assist me one mite, men that were be­holding to me to borrow money of me, and that eat of my cost, that I had always been ob­liging to, and not they to me. But I hope I need insist upon this no further, the whole Na­tion is sensible what is doing, and what this does signifie: They have begun with me, in order to the making of a Presbyterian Plot, which they would carry on to stifle the noise of the Popish Plot; and this is not the 1st, the 2d. nor the 10th. time that they have been at this Game; how many Shams have they endeavoured to raise—

Who do you mean by they?

The Papists.

There is nothing of Popery in the case, they are all Protestants.

They are all persons that have lately receiv'd the Sacrament.

They were all Papists, and I believe are so still; for Mr. Dugdale did ju­stifie to me the Church of Rome in several things: And when I told him that they were all Knaves and Fools that were of that Religion, he told me, that many of their Priests were holy good men.

Have you proved that?

I can't prove it, it was betwixt him and me, my Lord.

Then I hope you have done.

If I had sworn against him, he had stood in my place.

Have you done, Mr. Colledge?

My Lord, I only desire the Jury to take all into their serious consideration; I expect a storm of thunder from the learned Counsel to fall upon me, who have liberty to speak, and being learned in the Law, understand these things better than I, who must defend my self without counsel. I know not whether it be the practice in any Nation, but certainly 'tis hard measure, that I being illiterate and ignorant in the Law, must stand here [Page 121] all day, they being many, and taking all advantages against me▪ and I a single person, and not able to use one means or other either of writing or speaking. But Gentlemen, I do de­clare and protest, as I shall answer it at the day of judgment, that as to what these peo­ple have sworn against me either as to words, or as to any manner of Treason against the King, the Government, the Laws established, I take God to witness I am as innocent as any person upon earth. And therefore I must beseech you be not frightened nor flattered, do according to your judgments and your consciences; you are to be my Judges both in Law and Fact; you are to acquit me, or to condemn me, and my blood will be required at your hands. And whatsoever is said to you by others, you are my true Judges, you must give an account of the Verdict you give; and therefore you must see that you do Justice, as you will answer it at another Bar, where you must all certainly appear, and the Lord Almighty direct you that you do me true justice, and I ask no more.

May it please your Lordship, and you Gentlemen of the Jury. Here hath been a great deal of time spent, and truly I think for no other reason but to divert you from the matter that is before you, and that you might forget the Evidence that hath been given. And therefore I will briefly repeat it to you, that I may refresh your memories about what hath been sworn. Gentlemen, the Crime charged upon Mr. Colledge is High-Treason, in imagining and compassing the death of the King; the proof of that hath been by a conspiracy to seize the King here at Oxon. which conspi­racy he declared he was in, by shewing Arms prepared for that purpose, and by coming down to Oxon. with that intent; this is the proof of his design to kill the King.

Is the conspiracy proved of that Mr. Solicitor?

Mr. Colledge. We have had a great deal of patience with you, you have spent a great deal of time, you must contain your self now, and let them go on.

Do not let him do me wrong, my Lord.

I will do you no wrong, Mr. Colledge.

Sir, there is no conspiracy proved.

Look you, Mr. Colledge, you have taken up a great deal of time, and we have had much patience, because we consider your condition, and had rather hear too much than be hard upon you; and because the Evidence was long and difficult to re­peat, now we have heard you, you must have patience to hear what the King's Coun­sel repeat, and observe upon it.

As I was saying the fact that is charged upon him, is a design to kill the King, the manifestation of that design is by preparing Arms to that purpose, and by coming down to Oxon. to seize the King here, and that this was his manifest intent to seize the King, the proof of it hath been by witnesses, that I think by and by you will have no objections against. These witnesses were Dugdale, Turbervile, Smith and Haynes, these are the most material witnesses to the Treason; there are two other wit­nesses indeed, but they are to other circumstantial matters that I will take notice of to you by and by, and make my observations upon them in their proper place.

Mr. Dugdale was the first witness that was produced, and his Evidence is very full, he proves that Mr. Colledge declared to him at the Coffee-house here, that he was come [Page 122] down with an intent to seize the King, that he had an expectation something would be done, that he was armed, and that he did advise Mr. Dugdale to be armed too, for he was provided for the rooting out of Popery, which he explained himself what he meant by it, that was the Church of England, and the King and all his Adherents. He came hither armed for that purpose Gentlemen, and did advise Mr. Dugdale to arm himself too, that he did declare to him the King was a Papist, and all his Family were Papists, He was as deep in the Plot, and as guilty of the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey as any body else. This was what he declared to Dugdale here, and this he swore to you when he gave his Evidence.

The next Witness is Mr. Turbervile, and he is positive to the matter that is laid in the Indictment, and swears to you expresly, that he did declare to him at the Chequer-Inn, that they came down here in expectation of some sport, that something would be done, that they did expect the King would begin with them, but if they did not, they would begin with him, and they would secure him till they had brought him to a complyance. He shewed him his Arms, that he was ready to ingage in that design, and advised Tur­bervile to be ready too. And the rather than Turbervile should not be ready, he offered to procure him an Horse.

Every man had the same Arms that I had, and I had had them long before that time.

But every one had them not with the same intent, but Gentlemen, because Mr. Colledge interrupts me with an Objection, I will take notice of it now by the way. He says those Arms he had before, and therefore they were not provided for this purpose, Gentlemen, we do not pretend to prove when his trayterous intent first began, and how long this Design has been hatching, but such a Design there was, and such a Design he manifested to be in himself when he made the Declaration to Turber­vile, and advised him to arm himself, whether he prepared them against that time or no is not material, if he had them before, and if he had them first innocently, yet if he af­terwards designed them for such a purpose, and shewed them in a readiness for it, that is a sufficient Evidence to prove this Treason.

So here are two Witnesses you observe against the Prisoner of this matter that is laid against him in the Indictment, an intent to kill the King, they both prove it positively upon him at Oxon. Mr. Dugdale speaks to matters precedent to, for he tells you, his discourse before they came down, that they would come down for that purpose, that they had an expectation something would be done, and therefore he came down in an Equipage not suitable to his profession, for you see he was by Trade a Carpenter or a Joyner, but armed on Horseback with a case of Pistols, things that don't become such men to travel with, and he did declare to Mr. Dugdale for what purpose he came down. The next Witness is Mr. Smith, and Mr. Smith is as positive and full to this matter of Treason as any of the rest.

There is scarce a Carpenter or a Joyner in London but hath Pistols when he rides.

Mr. Colledge, we must not suffer this, we had so much patience with you that we expect you should be quiet now and not interrupt the Counsel.

My Lord, let me not be overborn upon, there is sçarce a Poulterer in London, but what hath Pistols.

We had great patience with you Mr. Colledge, and did not interrupt you I am sure, but let you say what you would. I think I do you no wrong, if I do, I am under correction of the Court, they will reprove me if I do that which does not become me.

Did not you ramble I don't know how, and yet you were suffered to go on?

He tells you of a discourse as he came from the Coffee-House to go to a Dinner whither he was invited by Alderman Wilcox; and the discourse was, that the King was as great a Papist as the Duke, and much more to that purpose vilifying the King. The Alderman Wilcox was a man that gave money to buy Arms to bring the King to submission. He objects against this, and says, 'tis impossible such a discourse should be, and that all this should be talked in so little a time, as in passing from the Cof­fee-House to the Crown Tavern without Temple-Bar.