• Orthodoxos, a Diuine.
• Philodoxos, a Lawyer.
• Philochrematos, a By­shops Chaplaine.
• Philedonos, an Inne-holder.

GEntlemen, ye bee all heartilie welcome; I pray you be as merrie as though your cheere were greater. If we had better, ye shoulde haue better: but I hope ye will bee content with such as God sendeth.

Our cheere doth [Page 2] content vs very well mine hoste, we do thanke ye for it.

I could teem it were better: but surely In-keeping is cold in sūdry places ouer it hath bin, & that causeth vs to make slender prouision.

How shold y ^t be, ther be as many trauellers as euer there were.

Oh sir, I graunt ye: but our chiefe gaine hereabout doth not stande in that, I haue knowne when a dozen or sixteene Gentlemen and wealthie yeomen haue met toge­ther, and made merrie foure or fiue daies, or a weeke, at cards or Bowls, as the time did serue. Nowe all good fellowship is laide aside, the worlde is waxen stark nought.

In deede that was a good helpe to Inne-holders, and I think it be much left in manie places, men waxe more couetous & worldlie, they haue not the care they had to maintain loue & friendship.

I cannot tell whether they bee more couetous: but there be so manie new-fangled Preachers, it [Page 3] is greate pittie that they be suffered: they marre all, for they destroie all good house-keeping.

It is verie true: I haue knowne as much meat spent in one house at a Christmas, as is nowe spente in three, a lamentable thing, the poore do rue it.

They keep small hos­pitalitie themselues, and not content with that, they preach and crie out a­gainst it in other men, I am vnlear­ned, but yet I think a preacher shold keepe good hospitality, and commend it in others.

Naie ye say true, for the apostle willeth them to be har­berouse. 1. Tim. 3.

Ye doe not well, to soothe and vpholde mine hoste in his euill speeches, for he doth shewe him selfe to be a verie grosse and carnall man: he is al for the lusts & pleasures of the flesh, voide of the true know­ledge of God, not hauing anie taste of spiritual things, one of those which (as the Scripture saith) make their [Page 4] bellie their God.

Yee mistake mine hoste, ye do him great wrong, to giue such seuere and sharpe sentence a­gainst him: I obserued and weied all his speeches, so farre as I can con­ceiue, he vttered nothing worthie re­buke: hee complaineth, and I war­rant yée, not without cause, y ^e Inhol­ders haue smal resort, y ^e good houskée­ping is decayed, & men be new-fan­gled and ouer precise, do ye not think they are to be blamed, as those which do more hurt then good? I suppose ye are not of that minde, but y ^t ye doe al­low Innekéeping to be a lawful and honest vocation, then ye must also al­low them, to seek such gaine as that they may liue. They paie great hous­rent, bedding & other furniture is ve­rie costly. In a worde, they buy all things deare. How shall they be able to keepe open there doores, if it be not lawful for men to meet togeather, to spende their time in honest recreati­on? It doth nourish friendship. I am bolde to speake in defence of mine [Page 5] Host: If he had any worse meaning, I am deceiued.

I do not thinke y ^t his meaning was worse then yours: nei­ther doth that colour of words which you goe about to colour it with all, hide the nakednesse thereof: so farre off is it, from proouing his meaning or yours to bee good, hauing scarce a shew of reason.

If there bee scarce a shew of reason in my spéech, you may the more easely confute it. But it wil be harder for you to excuse your vn­charitable & seuere damning of men, then for me to mainteine my saying.

Because I said mine Host is a carnal man, without the knowledge of God, one that is all for the lustes and pleasures of the fleshe, one of those which make their belly their God: Yee say I do vncha­ritably damn men, Ye did not heare mee pronounce a finall sentence vp­pon him: But if he continue in the case he is now in, there is no doubt. Let his owne wordes giue euidence. [Page 6] He said the worlde is waxed starke nought, because men do not meet to­geather, to drinck and playe as they were wont. The Prophet saith, Wo be vnto those which call good euill, Isay 5.5. and euill good. The Lorde condem­neth drunkennesse, and gluttonie, I­dlenesse, mispending the time, vaine speeches, railing, fretting, quarrel­ling, swearing, coueting other mens goods, vndoing and beggering Wife and Children, by spending their sub­stance: all these thinges are rife, and ouerflow among those which do méet togeather at play: When the Lorde saith these things be euill, and mine Host saith the worlde is naught for learning them: Is it not plaine that he is a carnal man, and knoweth not God. You colour it, and saye Inhol­ders sit at a great rent, and paie dear for all thinges, and they must liue. If you did know or consider, how cursed a thing it is to gather gooddes by such meanes, you woulde confesse it were a thousande folde better for to begge. He saith the Preachers which [Page 7] cry out against such things be new-fangled, is he not thereby apparant­lie knowne to be a belly God. You would faine helpe him, and yee saye, if men be new fangled and ouer pre­cise: are they not to be blamed? Yes no doubt. But you must shew that it is to bee new-fangled and ouer pre­cise, for to publishe the holy worde of God, against such filthie vices. Yee say all of yee, that good house keping doth decay, and the poore they rue it. The house kéeping which you mean, is that confused ryot, where there is aboundaunce of meate and drinke, spent euen as well as if it were cast vnto the Dogs. Some rich man doth keepe open house for twelue dayes, there gather all the idle vnthriftes, euen the scum & dregs of the people: There is such reuill night and day, that if a man that hath a godly mind come in, hee doth thinke he commeth into a little hell. The good creatures of God are wasted vpon most filthie personnes. Some man doth loose so much at Cardes, that his wife and [Page 8] his children do fare hardly a moneth after. The poore may rue that there is more cast away in one daye, then woulde serue them a whole weeke. The Preachers they keepe not Hos­pitalitie (saith mine Host) because they do not follow this order: and be­cause sundry haue not the wealth to do it. And thus mine Host and those which be iumpe of his religion, doe cry out stil to haue the paunch filled. If they maye haue one which will make them good cheere, though hee neuer minister vnto them any spiri­tuall food, yet they are aboundantly satisfied & contented. But if he bring the foode of the soule neuer so plenti­fully vnto them, and not able to doe the other, they make no reckoning thereof: Which doth most plainely shewe, that they are such as Christe spake vnto, Iohn. 6. which sought him because he had fedde their bel­lies. And as for the friendship which is gotten and nourished by meeting at play: It is small friendship when they fall to it by the eares. If they [Page 9] doe agree, yet the loue and friend­ship which is tyed togeather with such cordes, is but in the fleshe, and not that holye and spirituall loue which God requireth of Christians.

I did demaunde in­deede, if they bee not to bee blamed, which are new fangled, and ouer precise, as those which doe more hurt then good? I woulde it were not so easie to prooue as it is, that they doe more hurt then good, by beeing not onely ouer precize, and new fangled: but rashe and vndiscreet yea (if yee will) vngodly. And why? Because they preach against such filthie vices and publishe the holy worde of God? No Sir, that is good. Yee maye not put me to prooue them therefore to be in fault. No man wil saye they do hurt thereby. But this is vndiscreet, and worthy blame, that while they make sharpe inuectiues against the abuses, they vtterly cōdemn y ^e things thēselues which are indifferent and lawfull. Because some when they play, doe fret and sweare, they will [Page 10] alowe no man to doe it: Some doe for couetousnesse, reprooue those: O­thers doe it to passe away the time in honest recreation, not for anye hurt, Why shoulde they be blamed, now while they thus condemne the thinges them selues, and stay not in reproouing the abuses: it causeth que­stions and contentions, and breach of charitie among the people. This is a sore wound in a common wealth, Where the subiects are to be kept in vnitie one with an other.

The Iewes tooke vp stones to stone our sauiour Christ, and when hee aunswered and saide, Many good workes haue I shewed a­mong ye frō my father, Iohn. 10. for which of thē doe ye stone me? They had their excuse ready, For thy good workes we stone thee not, but for thy blas­phemy, that thou being a man, ma­kest thy selfe God. Such is the excuse and pretence which you and others make against the Preachers of the Gospell, let them preach the worde in Gods name, that is good: Let them [Page 11] also beate downe vice, wee can not blame them therfore: But we blame them that they deale rashlye, in con­demning thinges lawfull. Well, let it be graunted, that to play at cardes and dice, is a thing of it selfe indiffe­rent and lawfull: Yet it must (before the vse therof can be free) be deman­ded whether it be expedient, If there come much hurt by it many wayes? Is it meete that men for their plea­sure should vse it? Will it beare vs out for a carnall recreation, to de­stroye the glorye of God, and the bo­dies and soules of men? Shall men for that little good, which they ima­gine to reape thereby, sow and plant a multitude of shamefull vices? But you put a difference, though some a­buse playe, yet other vse it rightly: Who are they which vse it rightly? Are they not the Godly and the wi­sest? Shall not then their example harten and harden the other in their wicked abuses? Is not this y ^e cōmon defence, such a man is a wise man, & a learned man, he plaieth, woulde he [Page 12] play if it were not good? thus for their pleasure they throw down the honor of god, while they giue strength vnto others. Wee ought to forgoe a farre greater matter then pleasure, rather then vice should be encouraged, and mens soules destroied by your occa­sion. It is a foolish cauill which men vse against this: Many say they are drunkerdes & gluttons: many abuse their apparell: therefore we may not eate nor drinke, nor put on clothes, if it be so, least wee doe bolden them in their sinne. That is nothing like, for these thinges are such as can not bee spared: those other may be forborne yet no man the worse, there would be no questions nor contentions, nor breach of charitie among the people for this matter, if the multitude were not more zealous in the defence of their carnall lustes and pleasures, then they be for the honour of God: but whē yée say the preachers, which beate down such things are vngodly, ye do therein very grosely ouershoote your selfe.

I maruell why they should make themselues more holie then others? I know sundrie graue Diuines, other manner of men then any of them be, which will take their recreation, when time serueth amōg their honest neighbors. I wisse they are more precise then wise.

Indéed mine hoste, there be too many of those graue de­uines, which bestowe mo howres vp­on the ale-bench, at Mumchance or at Mawe, then they do in catechising their people. In deede such as these, are they, by whome you are most edi­fied: they are other maner of men for your turne, then such as both by do­ctrine and conuersation ouerthrowe vngodlie riot: but I will leaue you in your wise iudgement, and heare what this Gentleman will answere.

I did not groselie o­uershoote my selfe, in terming them vngodly, if there were any grosenes, it was in your vnderstanding, and not in my wordes: for it was not my meaning that they are wicked, onely [Page 14] because they condemne such thinges: they haue other faultes besides that, dothe not the Scripture pronounce them wicked, which disobeye their Prince, doe not these vtterlie refuse to obey the princes Lawes? shall we terme them good, when the worde of God prooueth them to be euill.

The pharisees rea­son thus against Christe Iesus, this mā is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabboth: this is a moste sure principle, that he which breaketh the Sabboth is not of God: they thought themselues cocksure, that he obserued not the sabboth, because he healed vp­on it, but therein they erred. The pa­pistes vse this, which is an vnfalllble trueth againste those which professe the Gospel: they be all heretikes and Sismatiques which seperate them­selues from the Church of Christ: but when they shoulde prooue that those which forsake the Church of Rome, forsake the true Church, therein they are grauelled: the same kinde of rea­soning, doe you and such as you are, [Page 15] vse against the ministers of Christe: they bee wicked say you, which diso­bey Princes: who denieth that? the authoritie and power of Princes is of God. He that resisteth the power, Rom. 13. resisteth God: and so doth procure to himselfe damnation: But nowe shew your cunning in this point, to prooue y ^t those are disobedient vnto Princes, against whom you speake.

There needeth no greate cunning for that matter, for the thing it selfe is manifest, doe not the Lawes of this realme command diuerse thinges, and are there not sundrie which refuse to do them? ther­fore they be disobedient vnto princes.

I cannot tell howe great knowledge, ye haue in the law: but your skill in Logicke is small, and lesse in diuinitie, if ye mainteine and holde this for a necessary conse­quence or conclusion, they be disobe­dient vnto Princes, because they re­fuse to doe some thinges which are commaunded by the lawe. For put case a moste Godlye and Christian [Page 16] Prince, with graue and wise Coun­sellers doe set foorth and establishe some thinges which agree not with Gods word, and yet they suppose that the same thinges are agreeable vnto the word. For what Princes or coun­sellers are so wise, but that they may faile in some pointes? Shall a man then which doth sée a thing comman­ded by the lawe, to bee againste the word, and therefore doth refuse to doe it, be counted disobedient to Princes? Do not you know that which the A­postle teacheth. Actes. 4. We must o­bey God rather then men? Doe not you knowe also, that although the thing be lawfull which is comman­ded, and a man through want of skil, or weakenes of conscience, doth feare & doubt y ^t the same thing is euil, and yet doth it, that he condemneth him­selfe in his deed, according to the do­ctrine which S, Paule teacheth. Rom. 14. ver. 23.

You charge me with vnskilfulnes, because of that conclu­sion which I made. But I doubt yee [Page 17] will not very easily disprooue the ne­cessity of the consequence: for if these be not coniugata, Disobedience and to disobey, I know not what are. You colour the matter with this, that we must obey onely in things which are not repugnaunt vnto Gods worde: who shall be iudge in these cases, or to which part shal men giue credite? All the wisest in the land, and cheefe in learning doe assemble in parlia­ment, and with all the care and ad­uise they can, make and establish lawes. Now when they haue done, a few other, and farre inferiour vnto them, shal mislike, & vndo that which they haue done: These shall take vp­on them to controwle the Nobility, the Iudges and Bishops of the land, and to be wiser then all they: would so many Godly learned Fathers set out anie thing that is not sounde? It is very absurd, if men had any wis­dome or discretion in them, for to dis­cerne. If we shall not trust those o­ther, shall we trust them? why should not they be satisfied? why should they [Page 18] be more precise or scrupulous, then their betters? It is a wilfulnesse in them. It is pitty there is no sharper punishment to compell them.

I confesse that dis­obedience, and to disobey be Coniu­gata: but yet it is easie ynough to disprooue the necessity of your argu­ment. For there is no disobedience, but where a man refuseth to obey, in thinges that are good: Where God enioineth no obedience, there can bee no disobedience by refusing. As for example, some prince doth command his subiectes to worship Idols, or some other thing which God doth forbid them: they refuse to do it, not of stubbernesse but of conscience to­wards God: will ye say they be diso­bedient? but you sée well inough that this weapon wil not serue, and ther­fore yee are content to cast it down, and to retier your selfe into a strong hold, as you imagine. For who shall iudge of maters whether they be ac­cording to gods word (say you) which part shal we beleeue? What are yee [Page 19] a Papist? Yee runne into the same holde that they doe when they fight. They demand in like sort who shall iudge, & which part is worthier of credite? If wee shall confesse your argument to be good and sound, how shall we denie it when it commeth from them bumbasted and set foorth with greater might? For when you saye, all the wisest and learnedest, of Nobility, Iudges, and bishops haue done it, howe shall a fewe inferiour personnes controll them or be wiser then they? Wil they alowe that which is not agreeable vnto Gods word? Then the Papistes may say, when as their religion hath been e­stablished by all the wisest Princes, Bishops, and Counsellers, with so general consent of so many ages, not of one Realme, but assembled out of a great sort of Countries and Pro­uinces: How shall a fewe (for the Nobles, Iudges, Bishoppes, and o­thers in a Parliament holden in one kingdome are but a fewe vnto theire multitude) controll them? [Page 20] If twentie or thirty learned byshops in one Land assembled together, can not set foorth or allow any thing but that which is good, how shall fowre or fiue hundred choise Fathers out of all countries be ouerseene? Oh sir, if this were a good reason, the Gospell might lye in the dust: If it bee good with vs, why shoulde it not be good when the Papists doe vse it? Espe­ciallye when they haue more right vnto it, because theire multitude hath beene farre greater. Howe wise you and manye other which vse this argument, doe take your selues to be. I pray yee did ye not vse it in the daies of Quéene Marie? will you refuse to go vnto the masse? will you be wiser then the Queene & the Counsell, & all the learned Byshops? Doubtles in this point yee are very wise, that ye haue layd a foundation that will beare any frame. Yée may go through all times, and chaunges of religion. For whatsoeuer a Par­liament doth set vp, yee will haue it by and by no further examined.

The general counsels of the Papists are not like the Par­liament: neither do ye well to com­pare them so togeather. For they looked to mans inuentions, but our Byshops haue regarded only y ^e word of God.

Let that be some dif­ference, as in deede God bee blessed there is great difference, albeit the Popishe Byshops professed to do all by the word. Yet neuerthelesse you must proue that thirty or fortie lear­ned Byshops looking only to y ^e word of God, can not swerue in any thing from truth, before this can follow, that no part of their doings may be controwled.

Ye do not heere mee saye that no part of their doing may be controwled: but I say this, when so many graue lerned byshops haue decreed it, shal it be controwled by a few greene and light heades? Can those which are nothing so many nor so learned, nor in no respect to be es­teemed so much, see more then they? [Page 22] It is like as if all the iudges in the Lande had agreed vppon a case, and an vtter barester or one which hath studied the Lawes, but two or three yeares; shoulde controule them.

Yee liken it as if all the Iudges in the Lande had agreed vpon a Case, and then a ve­rye young Studente in the Lawe, should take vpon him to controwle them all: when a fewe (as you say) greene heades, refuse to doe euerye thing that the Byshoppes conclude vppon. I knowe it is a straunge thing and incredible, that all the Iudges in the land should misse in a Case, and not bee able to sée that which some one of small knowe­ledge should see: but yet yee must knowe, that the Case is not alto­geather lyke in Heauenlye mat­ters, which men can not reache vnto by study & wit, as they do vnto earth­ly, but wher God doth inwardly lighten & teach by his spirit. Now God hath not tyed him selfe vnto multi­tude, [Page 23] nor vnto yeares, but where it pleaseth him to reueale: and there­fore one poore man bringing reason and authoritie out of the holy Scrip­tures, is more to be esteemed, then tenne thousande great Bishoppes, standing vppon their consent with­out warraunt of the worde. The Priestes in the lawe boldened them selues with the like reason, to con­sult to strike Ieremias: Ierem. 18. The law (say they) shall not perish from the Priest, and counsell from the wise, and the worde from the Prophet. In like maner worldly wise men doe secure­lie blind them selues, hanging their faith vpon probabilitie, and not sear­ching déeply into the matter. Againe yée doe falslye and vntruely in your comparison, to liken the one part as it were to al the iudges in the land, & the other to a yong studēt in the law. For, set the Papists a side, & the mul­titude of learned men against whom you speake, are more in number thē al the bishops, Deanes, Archdeacons and bishops Chaplains in this land. [Page 24] For ye must looke vpon the faithfull seruaunts of God in other Lands. If yee respect learning, there are none in our Land (but such as are impu­dent) that wil compare with some of them.

Why should not we thinke there bee as manye learned men of our lande, as in any other?

God be blessed there be great lerned men in our land, but yet I doubt not but they wil confes, that the Lord raised vp some in other Landes, whome he made the cheefe and principal Instrumentes to re­store his Gospell, the fruite of whose labours, doth spread so farre, that in all Churches, they are famous: yea there is no one man which is a true minister of Iesus Christ, but he hath iust cause to blesse and praise God for them: Such was M. Luther, M. Caluine, M. Beza, M. Tremellius and others. I know in deede ther bee of our men, whom the Church might spare wel ynough for any good they euer did vnto it, which will not stick [Page 25] to compare with the best of these, & to take themselues rather to be their superiours. Other men wil so estéem of them also, when they haue approo­ued them selues to bee such faithfull seruauntes of Christ, and haue done the like good to the Churche, that those other did: in the meane time e­uery wise man will iudge as he fin­deth.

I know these whom you name are famous men, but what haue they to doe with our church?

Haue you got that by the end also? surely I cannot tell what other men may iudge: but in my iudgement, it is a very prophane and a very wicked saying. Is there any God but one? any faith but one? any Church but one? Is not y ^e whole Churche in all places in the worlde Gods familie? Hath he not giuen one booke of the holy & sacred scriptures to teache and gouerne the same, & e­uery part therof? Were not those mē principall Instruments of the Lord, to expounde and open the mysteries [Page 26] of God vnto his church? did they not teach & declare the counsels of God onely out of his word? Is our church then the Church of Christe, and hath their doctrine nothing to do with it?

I know right well, that their doctrine which they teach out of Gods word, which is the doc­trine of faith, doth belong indiffe­rently to the whole Church. Because as you say, there is but one Church, and one faith. But in some externall matters one Church may differ from an other. And in that respect, euery Church is not tied to the outwarde forme of the Church at Geneua, in euery particular. There be circum­staunces of persons, times and pla­ces which maye make some vari­aunce.

One Church maye differ from an other in some exter­nall matter: let that be graunted, as I know not who doth deny it. Is that a sufficient cause for men to saye, what hath maister Caluine or maister Beza or others to doe with [Page 27] our Church? Haue not the excellent seruaunts of God, taught that point also by the Scriptures, which you speak off, that churches may vary in some externall matters? How then can it be saide that our Church hath nothing to doe with their doctrine? I doe not speake as though we were to depende vppon men, further then they prooue their doctrine by the ho­ly Scriptures. But when God hath raised vp speciall instrumentes, and made them lightes to his people, it muste needes proceede from a vile minde to saye, what haue they to doe with our Church? Such mens fin­gers are to be looked vnto, as those which are not to bee put in truste with the Spouse of Christ. For this is out of all doubt, that as those other are manifested vnto the worlde to be rare and speciall seruauntes of God, for the seruice of his sonne, and sal­uatiō of his people: so these by demanding so disdainfully what they haue to do with our Church, giue manifest cause of suspicion, y ^t they be none of [Page 28] Gods houshold. For either they must prooue that those excellent men, did not deale faithfully in Gods mat­ters (which they shall neuer be able to doe) or else confesse themselues to be vntrusty. Who is so foolish, but y ^t he can sée whē such as with y ^e migh­ty power of Gods spirit haue spread the light of the Gospell, and thrown downe the Kingdome of Antichrist, are reiected or little set by, that there is no faithful mind, especially when it is by those which them selues doe hurt and no good, to the furtheraunce of mens saluation.

Gentleman, by your patience, maye it please you to let me aunswere, not that I thinke you vnable to confute such friuolous speech, but because I am pricked, and can holde no longer. I woulde faine knowe who they are whome you meane, which do hurt, & no good, in our Church. If you meane the cheefe of the cleargy, God be thanked your slanderous tongue is not able to dis­credite them: they are well knowne [Page 29] to be graue, wise, learned, and God­ly, and therefore of all others do the most good, and the least hurt in the Church. If yee meane the Puritans or Precisians, all wise men wil a­grée with you: for in déede it can not be shewed that they do any good, but I am able to prooue, that they doe much hurt: for they be Scismatikes, and make diuision in the Church, a thing much to be abhorred of al god­ly mindes: they are the cause that there be so many Papistes, for what maketh them to be offended, and to refuse to come to the Churche, but this that we do not agrée among our selues, but these are not those whom you meane.

I sée you take it in great snuffe, that I saide, there are which doe hurte and no good in the Church. You woulde knowe whome I meane: But it must needes bee meant (as you take it) eyther of the cheefe of the Cleargie, or else of those whome you tearme Puritans and Precisians. For the first yee say [Page 30] they bee well knowne to bee graue, wise, learned and Godly. I suppose by the chiefe of the Cleargie, you meane Bishops, Deanes, and Arch­deacons, and Bishops Chaplaynes, And so you come in the number your selfe, beeing a Bishops Chaplaine. I doe suppose that the greatest part of these are graue and learned, and it were a verye lamentable thing that none of them should be Godly. I doe verilye suppose, that among these there be some which are not so drow­ned with couetousnesse and ambiti­on, but that they haue their speciall care for the aduauncement of Gods Gospell, and the saluation of mens soules: But will yee therefore cléere and iustifie all? But as for the Pu­ritanes and Precisians, yee say they do no good, and you can prooue they doe much hurt. You doe also shew, wherein they be Scismatikes, and make diuision in the Church. They giue offence to the Papistes. No doubte these bee abominable vices, and those that be giltie of them, the [Page 31] woe and cursse of God doth hange o­uer their heades. But your bare af­firmation maye not carrye away the matter, you muste prooue those men to bee such, whome you call Puri­tans.

It is a sore mat­ter which yee put me vnto. I praye yee what neede is there of anye fur­ther proofe, when the thing is eui­dent to all the worlde? Who doth not see that there is a Scisme in our Church, both among ministers and people? Who doth not see who are the cause of it? When a Church is established, and there doth arise con­tention therein: are those the Scis­matikes which defende the state and would haue it quiet: or those which rayse vp vnquietnesse? Do the chiefe Prelates make the Scisme in our Church, or the Puritanes? It is well knowne that they labour to haue it in peace, but these other are the cause of vnquietnesse.

You make verye [Page 32] light of the matter, as a thing so eui­dent, that there needeth no proofe. And to make the euidencie appeare, yée take this for your grounde, that where a Church is established, those which defend the state thereof to hold it in quiet canne not bee Scisma­tikes. On the contrarye parte: those which make any vnquietnesse to the state thereof, can not but be Scisma­tikes. If yee will haue no further consideration but so, then surely mai­ster Luther, maister Caluine, and o­thers, are iustly charged by the Pa­pistes to be Scismatikes. For there was a state established: the Pope & his Prelates were desirous to hold it in quiet. The other part yee knowe did disquiet it. Yet neuerthelesse eue­rie one which hath anie true know­ledge of God will confesse, that the Pope and his Cardinals are the scis­matikes, and that the other were Gods true seruantes. And why? He is the Scismatike which doth depart from the trueth and maintaine cor­ruption, although it be with neuer [Page 33] so great pretence of peace and quiet­nesse. For shal there be peace against God? Shal there be peace against the truth? Shall there be peace to the de­struction of mens soules, and laying wast of the church? On the other side, shall those bee called Scismatikes, which stand for the truth, which séek the saluation of mens soules? Yée must bring better stuffe, vnlesse yee will fight as the Papistes do.

This compari­son which you make, is verye vne­qual: for the state of our Church is not like the state of the Church of Rome? We haue the Gospell esta­blished and sincerely taught, there is Idolatrie and all kinde of false doc­trine set foorth and maintained. The Pope with his Cardinals and By­shops be the Scismatikes, because they maintaine that which is vn­godly, and goe against the truth. And therfore they do lewdly and vniustly charge maister Luther, maister Cal­uine, and the rest to be Scismatikes, which in deed set foorth the truth. And [Page 34] therefore I say still, they be Scisma­tikes which trouble and disturbe the vnitie & peace of that Church, where the Gospell is purely taught. It is you that muste bring better stuffe, such as you are, do rather conspire with the Papistes, to reason as they doe: and to fight with such weapons as they doe.

Yee doe me wrong, in saying that I compare the state of our Church, with the Church of Rome. For they maintaine Idola­trie and false doctrine, as you haue truely said, and we haue the Gospell established and sincerely taught. A brought in the Church of Rome, but as an example, to shew that they are not alway Scismatikes which go a­gainst the state of a Church: neither are they alwayes to bee excused as free from Scisme, which maintaine vnitie and peace. For I pray yee tell me, if in a Church there be foule abuses, and such as are intollerable, as bringing hazarde both to the Church and common wealth, one [Page 35] part cry out against them, an other part defend and cherishe them, who are the Scismatikes? True it is, there woulde bee no stirre, if none did finde fault. But will yee saye they bee Scismatikes, which doe publishe the truth, to throw downe falsehood? Or will yee saye those are no Scismatikes which do with­stande and fight against the trueth, because they woulde haue an vnitie and quiet estate?

I doe graunt that where there are intollerable corruptions, those are Scismatikes which doe maintaine the same. Be­cause they make a rent from God and from his truth, howsoeuer they be at vnitie amongest them selues. I doe also confesse that it is the part of euerye Godly Preacher, in due time and place, and in good sorte to reprooue such corruptions, and although there shoulde be a Scisme by that meanes, yet they are not to bee accounted Scismatikes, for they haue doone but their duetie. [Page 36] But what is this to the purpose? Doth this discharge our Puritanes from Scisme? Our Church hath no such abuses. They be but toyes and trifles which they striue about. It is a great wickednes for men to make a broyle, and striue in the Church a­bout matters of no importaunce. It were much better for them to imploy them selues to teach the people to know their dutie.

I am fully of your mind in this point, y ^t it is a great wicked­nes for mē to make any broyle in the Church for trifles and matters of no importance, the peace of the Church ought to be deare vnto men. And I doe not thinke there is anye Church which is so pure in doctrine and go­uernement, but it hath some little spots. You doe also graunt as much as I doe require, when yee say those are Scismatikes which maintaine intollerable corruptions: and such as reprooue them doe but their due­tie. For it must follow that some of our chiefe Prelates do bring in and [Page 37] maintaine intollerable abuses, that they bee the Scismatikes and the cause of all mischiefe in our Church: and then the Precisian as you terme him, doth but discharge his duety in finding fault.

I tolde yee be­fore, and I tell yee againe, and a­gaine I doe affirme it, that they bee trifles which our Puritans do striue about. If you can shew anye intol­lerable corruption which our lawe doth establish, yee say somewhat For our chiefe Prelates mainetaine no­thing but the lawes.

You tell me they be trifles, when I know that your tongue can tell nothing but truth. I will beleeue yee. Yee woulde haue me shew any such abuse established by our lawe, as is intollerable. I tell yee flatly my iudgement is this, that the verye grounde and substaunce of our lawes is the worde of God. And that the verye minde and intent of the lawe is, that whatsoeuer is a­gainst God and his worde, shoulde [Page 38] be throwne downe. And I doe not take that man to iudge so dutifully, as he ought to doe of his Prince and noble Counsellers, which doth not thinke that their whole purpose was to set vp Gods truth, and to throw downe wickednes: and ther­fore made such lawes as did tend to that effect. And also I am perswa­ded, that the grosse abuses in our Church, are either by neglect of the lawes, or else by peruerting the true meaning of the lawes, by some of those which shoulde put them in ex­ecution. Will not you affirme that our lawes haue this minde and e­quitie in them, that nothing shoulde bee which is againste the manifest worde of God, and which destroyeth his Church, for the maintenaunce whereof in deed, our lawes were e­stablished?

What if I af­firme that our lawes haue this minde and equitie in them, that no­thing shoulde be, which is againste the manifest word of God, or which [Page 39] destroyeth his Church, as in deede I doe affirme? What can yee ga­ther thereby, but onely this which maketh flatlye against yee: That looke howe much more Godlye the lawes are, so much greater is their offence in disobeying them.

That which you saye is true, the more Godlye the lawes are, the more is the offence of those which disobeye them. But giue me leaue now, to shew where­in disobedience lyeth, and to gather that which I perceiue you do not yet see. The law of God is absolutely perfect, both in the purpose of requi­ring that which is Godly, and also in expressing the same in most per­fect forme. Herevpon it followeth, y ^t so soon as euer a man swarueth from y ^e law of God, in any [...]. Now when mē come to make laws, to establishe the lawes and worship of God in any kingdom? let them be the wisest, and the lernedest, and the most Godly in the whole world: Let the multitude of them be very great: [Page 40] Let their whole purpose and care be to set foorth no law, but that which in euery respect is holy. Yet because God onely hath this glorye to be ab­solutelye perfect in wisedome and knowledge: it must needes be graun­ted that some imperfection maye be in their lawes, For it is incident vnto men for to erre. Put case then they in some pointes swarue from the truth, and it be afterwarde made knowne vnto men whome God doth further lighten: Shall their consci­ence bee tyed therevnto? If they finde Gods worde to goe one waye, and the law in some thing an other, which thinke you they oughte to cleaue vnto? Shall they saye thus, they were wise that set foorth the lawe, we will follow them? Is not God then dishonoured and denyed, when men are preferred before him? Shoulde they not rather obey God then men? Is it then disobedience when they refuse a commaunde­ment of men, because they dare not disobey God? It is not for any [Page 14] man rashely and stubbornly to reiect lawes: nor in his owne wilfull con­ceite to depraue them: but if with a sober minde, and good conscience grounded vppon Gods worde, which hee knoweth to bee against anye law, he doe with an humble heart refuse to obey the same law: though men call him rebell, yet before God he shall bee cleared as an obedient man.

What is al this to the purpose? who doth denye any part of that which you say. You sayd that the very mind of our Lawes is, that nothing shoulde be, which is a­gainst Gods word: thereuppon I did inferre, that their offence is the grea­ter which disobey them. I thought ye would haue confuted that and haue shewed somewhat, as ye sayd, which I doe not yet see.

You doe interrupt me, I was comming vnto that point, I am glad yee graunt that the wi­sest men may faile, and that it is no disobedience in a man that refuseth [Page 42] to doe a thing inioyned by them, when hee seeth it is agaynst Gods worde. Nowe to the other poynt, you say the more Godly the Lawes are, the greater is their offence that disobeye them: I say so also: but you gather this out of my wordes, when I sayde, that the minde and intent of our Lawe is, that whatsoeuer is against God and his word, shoulde bee throwne downe. If men did ne­uer erre, then that shoulde alwaies followe which you woulde inferre? But seeing they fayle often in some poyntes, which onely shoote at that in making their laws, to haue them agree with Gods word, it is but a foo­lish cōclusion which you make. Now marke what followeth vppon this, which you do not consider: if it fal out that they establish something which is against the worde, their minde is that the same shoulde be established, so soone as it is espied to bee so: the more godly they are, the more is their intent that way. Then to the pur­pose, you say the laws of Godly men [Page 43] are disobeied. I saye it is not their mind if they be godly, that any thing by them set down should be obeied, if it be found to be against the worde of God. For this were to deny the lawe makers to be godly: to say, that what soeuer they haue once decreed, they will haue it obeied, be it found to bee agreeable to the trueth, or against the trueth.

This is a very vnwise speeche, and such as woulde breede al confusiō. For by this means euery priuate man shall be a Iudge and controwler of the Law. Againe, the Law-makers cannot set down any penalty to be inflicted vppon the breakers of Lawes. For if this be, that the law shall bee challenged to be against the worde of GOD, and therefore to haue no power, euen by the minde of those which made it: then howe shall those which haue executiō of laws discharge their [...]? they can not dispence with the pe­nalty of the Lawe: Lawes cannot be dissolued, but by the same autho­ritie [Page 44] that they were confirmed.

Some men take nothing to be wiselye spoken, but that which commeth out of their own mouth, and their confused minde i­magineth confusion where none is. Euery priuate man, that will bee a true Christian, ought to bee so well instructed, that he know the thinges he doth, are commaunded by God: and if any thing be commanded him by man, which in his owne Consci­ence, he knoweth to be forbidden by the worde of God, it is not the lawe that shall excuse him in his deed. Do you thinke that this is a good excuse which Athiestes make, when they haue liued in two or three Princes dayes, and professed contrary religi­ons, to say we are priuate men, wee may not iudge of Laws? but we wil demaunde, are priuate men to bee Iudges and controwlers of Lawes? surely in that sence which you speak, they are not, for it is a very disorde­red thing, that euerye priuate man shoulde bee an open reproouer and [Page 45] controwler of Laws, much lesse may priuate men take vppon them to be reformers. But thus farre a priuate man may go, for the keeping of his owne Conscience pure, he is to iudge of Laws, and humbly to submit him selfe to the penalty, where hee seeth, he may not obey, and for the other difficulty which you make, is not the penalty against such as do contemp­tuously, maliciously, and wilfully, despise and breake Lawes. Doe not the wise Law-makers presuppose such executors of Iustice, as shall be able to discerne, whether it be wil­fully and stubbornly that refusall is made, or vppon good grounde of con­science? I would to God it were not, that some executors of Iustice, did rather come nigher the breaking of their othe, by turning the edge of the Lawe against such as it meant moste of all to fauour and cherishe: and the backe towards those whom it purposed to cut downe, and that greeuous corruptions were not clo­ked & couered with pretence of law.

If yee can not prooue this, yee are worthy to smart for it. I doe not thinke there bee any such executors of Laws. The Iudges in the Commonwealth, they be lear­ned and wise, and as for ecclesiastical gouernours, they were neuer more graue and learned, they bee farre from cloking and couering any cor­ruptions, as you say, with the pre­tence of Lawe.

I will not meddle with the ciuill Magistrates, or with their doinges. But this I will saye for Ecclesiasticall Iudges, that hor­rible corruptions passe thoroughe theire Handes: Yea, suche and so many, that if it please not GOD in his greate mercy to looke vppon vs, they will lay waste the Church, and hazard the common wealth.

Ye doe but slan­der and accuse falsely: the Puri­tanes are they which destroye the Churche and Common wealthe: they are the Vipers which gnawe oute the Bowelles of theire owne [Page 47] Mother.

It is an ea­sye matter barelye to affirme or de­nye: the worst men of all (as the scribes & Pharisees) did accuse our Sauioure Christe, and sayde he was a naughty man, affirming that them selues were good men. The Pope and his Shauelinges did cry oute vppon Luther, and all other true Seruauntes of GOD, calling them Heretiques, vsing also that ve­ry speeche which you doe, that they were Vypers, gnawing oute their Mothers Bowelles: But were these thinges prooued? no more shall you euer bee able to conuynce those whome yee accuse, nor to iustifye those whome yee commende: the Grose abuses and abhominations are so manye, and withall so ma­nifeste, that hee needeth an impu­dente Face, that shall goe aboute to hide them. Those that do with dete­station abhorre the same, those are Puritans, & precise fooles. I will not do as you do, barely affirme or deny. [Page 48] But I wil shew from point to point, that which I affirme.

I am as able to prooue any thing that I haue said, as you are to prooue yours, & more able, or else I woulde be sory, shewe you what yee can against your bet­ters, powre out all your poyson, and giue me leaue to speak but the truth of those whome you like so well: it were good, if men would put on qui­et mindes, and not be giuen to con­tention.

As men are to bee most studious of peace, and to put on quiet mindes: so ought they also to striue and contend for the maintai­naunce of Christes kingdome, when they see it troden downe, vnlesse they will shew themselues vnfaithfull to the Lorde: but begin, and say what yee can against these odious Puri­tans, and afterward giue mee leaue also, to tell yee that which I knowe will not please yee.

I see your speeche doth tend to this issue, to prooue who [Page 49] are the Scismatikes, and who do the mischiefe in our Church, the chiefe Prelats or the Precisiās? I like wel that there shold be reasons & proofes, and not bare affirming, and deny­ing. I will sit and heare, I pray yee proceed as yee did.

The Puritanes are the vilest men that be, not wor­thie to liue in a common wealth, be­cause they are sedicious and trouble­some, and make strife among the people: yea they teach men to be dis­obedient. I thinke this is ynough a­gainste them, if they had no other faultes.

For the terme Pu­ritane, I doubt not but you giue it vnto those, whom it is commonly gi­uen vnto euery where. And that is, if a man haue liued a foule and disso­lute life, and begin to looke a little towards the feare and seruice of god: By and by, O sir you are become a Puritan. If God haue any Church or people in the land, no doubt the ti­tle is giuen them. And therefore no [Page 50] doubt, Sathan taught this Rethorik to the first deuiser therof against men in oure time. But let the name goe. In deed that which yee saye is ynough against them, and a great deale to much if it were true. Let vs haue it prooued. What example can yee bring in anye one place of this land where any sedicion hath beene mooued by these men? Shew by the effect in some one place, that which yee doe so boldly charge them with­al.

What neede I bring any particular, or name anye one place, when the thing is so gene­rall? Doe not the people flocke after them euerye where, out of manye Townes, somtimes seuen miles off? If this be not disordered and a sedici­ous thing, I know not what yee wil take to be sedicious. Is it not a facti­ous thing, that the people are affec­tioned to some men, and care not for hearing other? Is the worde of God better out of one mans mouth, then of an other? No, no, they make the [Page 51] people fantasticall, it is but a vaine humour in them.

Yee saye the thing is so generall that yee need not stand vpon particulers. And for proofe yée saye, doe not the people flocke after them euerye where? What doe they flocke after them to make a tumult, or to commit any sedicious fact? your owne wicked conscience doth know, that it is to no such purpose, but to be instructed in the worde. But it is a disorder, that men should come seuen miles to a sermon. Are not these wo­full daies, wherein a multitude haue euen as it were conspired togeather to famishe and sterue the people of God. The most places haue no tea­ching at home, and they will not suffer them to seeke abroade, but would keepe them still in ignorance and blindnesse: and vnder pretence of order, their soules must perishe. Yee doe euen as the Priestes and Pharisies did againste Christe and his Apostles. For when he taught, the people were as sheepe without [Page 52] a shéepeheard, and therefore flocked out of all quarters to heare him. And when they deliuered him vnto Pi­late, they accuse him as a sedicious person, which mooued or stirred vp the people, teaching through all Iu­rye, beginning at Galile, euen vnto that place. Luke. 23. verse. 5. Thus Christ was sedicious, because the people flocked to heare him. Me thin­keth you and such as you are, should blush when ye make the same accu­sation that the Priestes and Phari­sies did against Christ. Came it from the father of lies in them? Who com­meth it from in you? S. Paule carried abroad the glorious Gospel: the peo­ple flocked to his preaching where he came, and were instructed in the way of life. And what saith the O­rator Tertullus, beeing the mouth of the high Prieste and the Elders be­fore Felix, against S. Paule for this matter Act. 24. ver. 5. Certainely we haue found this man a pestilent fel­low, and which mooueth sedicion a­mong all the Iewes thorough the [Page 53] whole world. Men may see, that this is no new practize of Sathan, to ac­cuse the Preachers of the Gospell to be sedicious. When Christ Iesus him selfe, and his blessed Apostle Paule could not be free from this ac­cusation, who shall looke to escape? But you colour the matter and saye, the people are fantasticall and facti­ous, addicted to heare some, and not othersome, according to their vaine humor. With this accusation of the people, yee beare your selfe in hande yee haue wonne the fielde. But who doth not see (that hath anye iudge­ment) how the people are so scanted of teaching, that if hee be a man of good life, they will goe a great waye to heare him, though he bee but a meane Preacher. It is true in deede which you say, they care not for hea­ring some. For why? they teach so that a man can be neuer the better for them. Others are of such euill life, that they esteeme not their doc­trine, for what power can it haue? Some will vtter such lyes and slan­ders [Page 54] againste others euen out of the pulpit, that euery man may see their falshood. Call yee this a fantasticall humor in the people, when they care not for hearing such?

Yee deale vn­charitably and vnchristianly, (I tell yee plainely) in making any compa­rison betweene vs, and the Priestes and Pharisies which went againste Christe and his Apostles: these doe professe Christ as well as your selfe. And where as yée woulde excuse the people: I know they are fantastical, & euen to please their humor, they will heare but whō they like: such a man hath the spirit, let vs heare him: such a man hath not y ^e spirite we care not for him: such a man is a sound Prea­cher, where preacheth he? As for such and such there is no edifiyng in their sermons, they cannot conuert men,

I compare the facts and not the men, and if you can shew such difference therein, let it be séene. If a man reprooue an open and ma­nifest sin in any of you, by and by it [Page 55] is vncharitably done. In the meane time in your selues it is verye good charity, to vtter what yée lust against those whom yee can not detect. And for the people in making choyse of those which teach: for those respectes which you mention, are you a deuine and not ashamed to open your mouth against that? Haue yee lost all sence of religion, or do your corrupt affecti­ons carry yée against your consciēce? I pray yee do not the true Preachers preach by the power of Gods spirite? As Saint Paule speaketh of his owne preaching 1. Cor. 2. ver. 4. Do yee i­magine that euerye one which prea­cheth doth come with this power? No, you know full well there be vn­méet preachers. Is not I pray yée, the vse of preching to cōuert mens souls? Do yée thinke God hath not his mes­sengers whom he setteth about this businesse? Or doe yee thinke that all kinde of preaching doth conuert soules? You know there are some which haue small skil, how to mini­ster wholsom food vnto mens soules, [Page 56] which can occupy a pulpit an howre or two with fine tales and Fables, and pretie iestes to make the people laugh: surelie he bewraieth him selfe to be a grosse Dunce, which findeth fault with the people in these things, it argueth that he neuer knew what it was to haue his owne soul conuer­ted.

Naie, why do ye not speake of those that preache the Lawe, and doe nothing but thunder, and terrifie mens Consciences, and bring them into dispaire: they should preach Christe and bring the glad ti­dings of the Gospell to comfort men: this maketh strife among the people, and maketh them factious: for one is readie in euerie thing to controwl a­nother, yee may not do this, yee may not doe that: this is againste Gods commaundementes: in this ye sinne: & so where ther was loue and friend­ship, and good Neighberhood before, nowe there is contention and part-taking, this is the Fruite of theire preaching euery where, & yet forsooth [Page 57] these men are they, which doe moste good: these are they which conuerte mens soules: this is a wicked preach­ing, and as I sayde before, so I say still, they be seditious.

Our sauiour Christ did preach both the Law and the gos­pell, Math. 5. And ye may see his A­postles did euery where: the Law is the rule of righteousnesse, expressing the holy and pure wil of God. When it is preached and expounded, men by it come to the sight of themselues: and the more they vnderstande the depth and purenesse of the Lawe: the more they espy their owne vncleannesse, cursednesse, and miserye: and so are forced to renounce themselues, and to cleaue vnto Iesus Christe. Before they come to this, they can feele little sweetenesse in the Gospell, but are as men which are whole, and therefore neede not the Physician: and for this cause the Lawe is to bee preached strictly. And againe, when men are brought to the knowledge of their owne nature, and also to the faith in [Page 58] Christ, then are they to walke in all obedience vnto God. They must re­nounce and forsake vngodlines and worldly lustes, and liue soberly, righteouslye, and Godly in this present world. Tit. 2.12. The law is the rule to shew the euill which we must es­chew, and the good which we must follow. And in this respect also, the lawe is continually to be vrged. If men preach nothing but the lawe, to thunder and to terrifie mens consci­ences, & to bring them into dispaier, & shew them not the comforts of y ^e gos­pel, thē they do euil. But you do fals­ly slander the Godly Preachers, and maintaine a very wicked & horrible opinion, which is, that the law shold not be preached. And therfore out of many pulpits, a mā may heare these voyces: O these Precisians & Puri­tans they preach the law. The law is abolished, & must not now be preched. And then some great Rabbi standeth glorying, as it were in contempt of y ^e law, I preach the Gospell, and this I do euery where. We come & intreat & [Page 59] beséech yée. These fellowes that do so tauntinglie reprooue yee, are not sent of god: they be not white doues which come from God, but blacke Rauens which come from Hell, good people do not heare them, when they preach thus. Thus they flatter the people in their sins. This is a most filthy sedu­cing of mens soules vnto destructi­on. For vnder the colour of preaching the Gospell, that all are sinners, and shall be saued by Christe, they do vt­terlie abolishe sanctification, so they say they beleeue in Christe, it is e­nough, howsoeuer they liue in blind­nesse, and all kinde of vngodlinesse, their conscience must not bee trou­bled: and I pray ye what is the cause that they teache thus? they are of a loose and dissolute life them selues, and therefore they beare with the wickednesse of the people, that they may beare with them. But you shew a reason why the Lawe must not be preached: it causeth strife and dis­sention among the people, and why? forsoothe when the Lawe is taught, [Page 60] then euery man can espy when his neighbour doth sinne, and then will admonish and reprooue him, and when he can not abide it, there gro­weth strife, and part-taking. Are not men commaunded to admonish and reprooue one another when they doe amisse. Math. 18. verse 15? Are not those men to be counted very vngod­ly, which refuse to be reprooued? yea are they not become brutishe, which when they are admonished for foule sins, they are at defiance with those that admonish them, & then cry out, there is no loue? men must flatter them, and bee partakers with them, in all their abominable vices, which we are commaunded to haue no fel­lowshippe withall: but rather to re­prooue them. Ephe. 5. ver. 11. or else all loue is gone: and are not those ve­rie seducers, and false Prophetes, which nourishe vngodlie men, and harden them in this euill? and like deepe Diuines they crie out, where these Puritans are, there is contenti­on. I thanke God all my Parishio­ners [Page 61] are at vnitie and loue together, vsing good Neighberhood one with a­nother, except it be two or three pre­cise fooles, which will not do as their honest Neighbours do: and let a man looke vppon their Parishioners, and hee shall finde no knowledge of God among them, but all wicked vices, in which they loue and agrée togeather: their liues and the liues of their tea­chers are alike, and this is the thing they glory of: a cursed vnitie and a wicked loue, which is in the fleshe, and yet those that seeke to bring men from these vices are seditious and do hurt, because vngodlie men can not abide the lighte, but doe raise vp con­tention.

Yee shewe your selfe more and more to be vncharita­ble, euen as all the pack of yee are, to crie out against your brethren, and your betters, that they destroie mens souls, that they be seducers, and false Prophetes: how will you bee able to prooue that they seduce, or that they be like the false Prophetes? this doth [Page 62] shew what spirit yee be of. Yee haue taught your tonges to slander. Such as you, doe bewitch the people, and are false Prophetes, a company of Asses and dolts.

When other men speake the truth, they be vncharita­ble, but when you do lye and slaun­der, and raile, yea euen in the pulpit, Asses, dolts, cockescombes, cockadod­les (for this is the Rethorike of di­uers of yee) yet you are still charita­ble, and graue wise fathers. I know it is necessarye it shoulde be prooued, who are seducers and false prophets. For this yee shall finde, that among the Iewes, those that were false pro­phetes, did call the true Prophetes seducers. This yee may see betweene Ieremias and the false Prophetes. Likewise Mychaiah 1. Kinges. 22. is counted a false Prophet. We say the Papistes are seducers and false Pro­phets. They say the like of vs. But the triall is all. And how shall we trie this matter? Surely euen by the qualities. Those are the false Pro­phets [Page 63] and seducers, which deale so with the people, as the false Pro­phetes did in the olde time. The chil­dren of Israell were meruailous wic­ked walking in all kinde of vices, despising the holye worde of God: When the Lorde sent his Prophetes vnto them, calling vppon them to forsake their wicked wayes, and to tourne vnto the Lorde, threatning the iudgementes and vengeaunce of God vnlesse they did retourne: The false Prophetes laboured as fast on the other side, to flatter them, and to make them beléeue they were in good case. The Lord complaineth of them Iere. 23.14. That they strengthened the handes of the wicked, that they should not retourne euery one from his euil. And a little after in the same Chapiter he sheweth how. They say vnto those that despise me, the Lord hath sayde yee shal haue peace: and to euerye one that walketh in the stubbernesse of his owne heart, they saye, there shall no euill come vppon yee. Marke well if it bee not so [Page 64] at this day among vs: Wickednesse aboundeth most horriblely. When the Godly Preachers do vehemently threaten vengeance, vnlesse they re­tourne: Are there not by and by o­thers that step vp, and find fault that men should be threatned with Gods iudgements? God is mercifull (saye they) we must preach the Gospel. Yée be Christians, all men are sinners. Yea, they tell those that are drowned in all wickednesse, and which despise the word of God: yee be Christians: yee be honest men, and good subiects: Those that finde fault with yee, doe iudge, and therefore are deuilishe. Is not this to strengthen the hands of y ^e wicked, that they should not returne from their wickednes: to beare them in hand they be good Christians, and shall do well ynough? Looke in Eze­chiel chapter 13. ver. 22. They make the heart of the righteous sad by ly­ing, whom I woulde not make sad, (sayth the Lord) and strengthen the handes of the wicked, that he should not returne from his wickednesse. [Page 65] Who doth not see, that this kinde of false Prophet is amonge vs euerye where, which doth in Sermons séeke to deface such, as haue care to im­brace the holy word, in such sort that it can not, but make sad the heart of euery good man to heare it. And how much are the wicked encouraged and strengthened by such Sermons? Yée shall see them euen skippe for ioye. Here is one (saye they) which doth fetch vp these Gospellers, these gad­ders to Sermons: This is a graue man, this is a learned Doctor. Also looke in Micah Chapter 2. ver. 11. If a man or one that lyeth, prophesie vnto thee, of wine and strong drink, he shall be the Prophet to this peo­ple. The false Prophets sought that way to please the wicked belly Gods of the worlde, which were giuen to follow their lusts and pleasures. And what say our Prophets? Yee may go to the Alehouse and drincke and be merry togeather, yee may daunce, yée may play at Cardes and bowles vp­on y ^e Sabboth daye, yee maye recreat [Page 66] your selues, yée haue fréedō in Christ, they seduce and bewith men, that do refraine them, as though men néeded to be encouraged to such pleasures.

Nay those are false Prophets which teach the people dis­obedience, and such are these Puri­tans: they will not obey lawes, and by their example they teach the peo­ple disobedience.

There is no doubt but those are false Prophetes which teach the people disobedience. And as for the Puritans, their doctrine and practize is this: That men must obey y ^e higher powers vnder paine of dam­nation: but when any thing is com­manded which is against gods word, we must obey God rather then men. This doctrin is to be taught and pra­ctized in the daies of most Godly and most christian Princes. If this be to teach the people disobedience, I can not tel what to say. I feare me, it wil be founde, that manye of those which boaste and brag of obedience, hauing in their mouth nothing but obedi­ence, [Page 67] obedience, euen as if they were obedience it self, do breake mo laws, & the same of greater importance, thē those whō they charge so déeply: and y ^e by y ^e same means, gods glory is trodē down, the Church laid wast, & mens souls destroyed, dangerous enemies to the Prince, & state of the common wealth, bred and nourished.

It is the property of yée all, to bee full of accusations a­gainst others, and especially against your betters, this is your deuilish spirit, when yee are not able to prooue that which yee say. It is greatly to be wished, that there were seuere pu­nishment for such slanderous tongs, which are so bolde to finde fault at their pleasure, and to controll such as be in office & authoritie. For, by this means the people and al are drawne on, to prattle and talke of matters which belong not vnto thē: A lamen­table case, what disorder is brought in by yee, whereby God is dishonou­red, his Church troubled, and mens soules destroyed, and the Papists [Page 68] bred and nourished, and when al this commeth to passe, yee woulde shift it from your owne shoulders, and laye it vpon others. But all wise men do see well ynough where the blame is to be layd, and doe lament it. I am loath to spend many wordes, let vs heare some of these things prooued.

The end wil shew who be slanderers, and who they are which are led with a deuilish spirit. It greeueth yee sore that yee are spo­ken of, especially by the people. Yee wishe there were seuere punishment for slaunderers. Why is this, because yee hate slaundering? No but yee would not haue any so much as whi­sper of those grose thinges which are amisse in yee. The people must be like dumbe Asses, they must beare all at your handes, and saye neuer a word: yea euen when it commeth to the hazarding and loosing of their soules. Yee can in no wise abide that the people shoulde haue anye skill in the holye Scriptures, for feare they should espy somewhat in such as you [Page 69] be. It is a pitifull case (as you think) that the common sort shoulde know, what maner of men Ministers ought to be, and what they should doe: For now yee cannot faile in your duetie, but euery plaine man is able to con­troll yee by the word of God. If the common people should be in daunger of loosing their possessions, their goods or their liues, yee would say it stoode them in hand to speake and to plead hard for themselues, and it were a great iniurie to denie them to speak: how much more doth it stande them in hand thinke yee, when their souls are in danger not to hold their peace? You require to haue some thing proo­ued of that which I spake. Yee can­not deny, but that the feeding of the shéep of Christ, is one of the waigh­tiest matters vnder heauen, & which our sauiour requireth at y ^e hands of y ^e ministers, euen as they loue him: For so he saith to Peter: Louest thou me? Louest thou me? Louest thou me more then these? Feede my lambes, feed my sheepe, feed my sheepe. Ioh. [Page 70] 21. ver. 15. As if he shoulde saye, my sheepe and lambes, which I leaue in the world, are so deare and prescious vnto me, that of all loue, I request thee to feed thē. Now because the life of his sheepe, and tender lambes, e­uen the life of those soules which he bought with his bloud, doth depende vpon the sincere food of the worde, in which they are continually to be fed: he hath appointed shepheards, which shal alwayes attende vppon them, to lead them into the gréene pastures of the word, and vnto the liuely springs of water, and that shal defende them from wolues, and other cruel beastes which wold deuour them: these must not be blind guides: these must not be hierlinges: these must not be Idoll shéepheards, dumb dogs, gréedy dogs, rauening wolues, nor vnsauery salt: but faithful disposers of the misteries of God: wise embasadors of the great king, to open and declare his coūsels vnto men: paternes & examples of al godlines for others to follow, for such the scripture appointeth. According vnto this most holy ordinance of god, [Page 71] our law doth require they shoulde be learned & godly. Is this ordinance of God, or this law kept among vs? Are there not a rablement of vngodlye & vnlearned mē appointed to be guides ouer the flock of Christ? Is there not lesse account made of the soules of gods people, then men make of their hogs? Are there not in sundry places poore sely creatures which were Po­pish priests, that a man shall hardly find any so simple in all their parish, such as coulde hardlye liue: as ser­uing men, banckrupts, & vnthriftes, haue they not knocked at the gate, and bin let in? Tailers, sadlers, sho­makers, and other handycrafts men that could scarce read english before, are they not consecrated, and become masters in Israel? A multitude of such as are idle, and cānot indure to take any pains, but loue to play at bowls, cards & tables a great part of y ^e wéek, and to be at the alehouse drinking a­mong good fellowes, haue founde the ministery y ^e fittest place to serue their turne. For their chiefe worke is vp­pon the Sunday to read an Homely, [Page 72] and then he hath preached as wel as he that studied hardest all the wéeke. Are there not drunkerds, adulterers, and men spotted with manye foule vices in this holy function? Who are to bee blamed, that Gods name is thus dishonoured, the Church layde waste, and mens soules destroyed?

I confesse there is some fault this way that you speak of: But you and your fellowes deale verye lewdly and wickedly diuers wayes as concerning this matter. For first of al, yee blame those which are least to be blamed, that is to say, the reuerende Fathers the Bishops, they can not doe with all, the Pa­trons do present them with commen­dation, if they be not admitted, they will haue their quare impedit. Se­condly, yee are like euil birdes which defile their owne neast. If there be such faults in the ministers, it were your part, euen for the calling sake, to couer and hide them, and not to blase them abroad as your maner is. Thirdly, your vncharitable dealing [Page 73] is not to be borne when yée wil raile against them, calling them dumbe dogges; hierlings, Idol sheepheardes and I know not what: they be men, they be Christians, they be your bre­theren. If there were any Godlines in yee, yee would not so handle them. They haue Wiues and Children, what, woulde yee haue them begge? Surely I thinke yee would. This is your pitifull minde towardes other men. We may see what it is when men will seeme to be so zealous, and yet haue no loue in them. Read the 13 chapiter of the first Epistle to the Corinths, and yee shall see what ac­count is to bee made of men, though they haue great gifts, and can speak like Aungels, and yet haue not loue. Loue doth couer the multitude of sinnes: But such as you, are so farre from couering, that yee make things worse then they are.

It is well yee con­fesse there is some fault that way. I neuer spake with any yet, that wold not affirme the same. There be ma­ny [Page 74] y ^t are grown to great impudency, but yet dare not for shame say other­wise then you do, y ^e matter is so eui­dent this pot hath so wide a mouth, y ^t yee can finde no potlid good enough to couer it. But yet there want no shifts, and excuses in redinesse: those are wicked and lewde styll, that finde fault: First, because they blame those, which are least of all to bee blamed: for yee say they muste ad­mitte suche as the Patronnes doe present: doe yee thinke all men are become starke Fooles, that yee may abuse them, and make them beleeue what ye lust? I pray ye who made them ministers? Doubtlesse if the Patrons layd the Eggs, yet it must bee confessed, that the Byshops haue hatched the whole broode of these vntimely Byrdes. If they at the firste offended of ignoraunce, why haue they not lamented this horrible and dreadfull sinne, and sought redresse? If the Diuell him selfe shoulde bee consulted withall, to knowe which were the readiest [Page 75] way, to throw down y ^e gospel: I think he woulde say this if he should chuse: I suppose hee woulde sende a greate number of those that are alreadye sent, they shall neuer bee able to re­compence this foule iniurie, done to Gods people. Secondlie, y ^e preachers are like birdes as you say, that defile there own nest, because they rebuke y ^e sins of the ministery. Ye know not how far this reacheth, & against whō ye shoote this bowlt. Did not the pro­phets reprooue the wickednes of the priests? did not our sauior Christ lay open y ^e quailities of y ^e scribes & pha­risees? Did not y ^e apostles paint out wicked teachers in their colours. It is y ^e part of Gods seruants to rebuke vngodlines, in whō soeuer they finde it. The calling of y ^e ministery is an high calling: for they are in Christes stead to exercise that office, y ^t he him self did whē he liued vpō earth. They are put in trust w ^t the souls of men, which are the price of his bloud: but yet it doth not followe, y ^e for this cal­ling sake their vices are to be couered [Page 76] It is a vile speech. For the more ex­cellent and prescious the calling is, the lesse are they to be borne withall, because they dishonor and deface the same. Who will esteeme the mini­sterie of the Gospell to be so high and excellent an office, or to be of anie waight, when he shall see the verie riffraff of the people, worse then Ie­roboams Priestes taken in, and ad­mitted as meete men? Are such fit to succeed the Lord Iesus, and to haue the charge of soules? How fearefull shall their reckoning be before the high Iudge, that haue put them in, and maintaine them? Doe they not dishonour the Sonne of God, and ne­uer repent for it? Are not their harts hardened, and blinded in this beastly sinne? Yee saye moreouer, that it is vncharitable dealing to raile vppon them, and to call them dumb dogges, Idoll sheepheardes, hierlinges, and such like. Was the prophet Isay vn­charitable, or did he raile, when hee called the idle vnskilfull Priestes, dumbe dogs? Or when he called the [Page 77] couetous Priestes that sought after their owne gaine, greedie Dogges, Chap. 56. ver. 10? Is this vnlawfull now, which was lawfull then? Our sauiour faith they be theeues & mur­therers which were before him, be­cause he is the doore, Iohn. 10. Al that he sendeth come in at the doore. Those whom he sendeth not (as in deede he sendeth none but such as are fit) may well be called theeues and murthe­rers. For they take the hier & destroy the soules of men. When they haue shewed repentance for these grieuous sinnes, they may be esteemed as bre­thren, and Christians. They haue Wiues and children, would yée haue them beg? A pitiful case. But I praie yee, is it not a thing much more mi­serable, that so manie thousandes of soules shoulde perishe, because some may not beg. Yée are euen made for this life, and can see no further. But why need they beg, let them to their occupation, if they be strong, if not, let them be relieued. You that are so charitable and pitiful vnto the Idoll [Page 76] [...] [Page 77] [...] [Page 78] ministers, which haue done so much hurt, a mā wold think ye would haue a singuler care of such as haue pain­fully labored in y ^e gospel, y ^t their chil­dren beg not: stil ye call for loue, that couereth the multitude of sins. Loue doth couer sins where repentance is, & doth forget them, but our Sauiour willeth to reprooue him y ^t offendeth, & if he repent not when it is shewed to the church, he must chunt him as an heathen man: but you would haue y ^e loue, which should shake hands with al kind of vngodlines, & bear with it. y ^t which y ^e scripture speaketh of loue, doth nothing at all make for your turne, séeing it is to hate a man, whē one seeth him walk in sinn, Leuit. 19.17. and doth let him alone, and not reprooue him.

Yée say we haue shiftes in a readines. We haue them not so readie as you haue your wic­ked and diuilishe accusations. You might vse better and more seemelye spéech; but y ^t your mouth doth speake out of the aboundaunce of the heart. Such as yée are, such are your words [Page 79] You woulde make men beleeue that the Deuill him selfe coulde do little worse, for the chusing of ministers. Let the world iudge who haue most to do with the deuil, & who best serue his turne: this doth bewray what spirit yee are of. They be more learned; wise, and Godly, against whome yee speak, thē are meet to be iudged, & cō trolled by such as you. If there be so great offēce cōmitted in making mi­nisters, as you say there is: yet it is not the part of inferiors to meddle & to find fault with their gouernors, it is a saucines in them, they are not to reforme, the redresse must be publike authority. When ye cry out against the poore ministers calling thē dumb dogs, & so deal vnchristianly & vnbro­therly, then y ^e prophet Isay is your defēce. Can ye tell what maner of men they were whō he called dumb dogs, & greedy dogs? ye wil follow Isay y ^e prophet & bee like him, haue you his spi­rite? Why do yee not admonish pri­uatly, & so yee shoulde doe lesse hurt, & shew your selues more charitable? [Page 80] Is not the calling brought into con­tempt, when the ministers are open­ly defaced? Are not mens infirmities therefore rather to be couered, and spared, then that should happen? Yee do more hurt that way with one ser­mon, then ye are able to do good with an hundreth: For yee doe not onelye make the ministerie to bee despised, but also make those to be euil thoght of which made them, and bring the people into vnquietnesse. For how can they tel when they see the mini­sters striue, what to beleeue, or what to follow? Againe, when those are lit­tle esteemed, which are in counte­nance and honour, how shal the rest of the ministerie be esteemed? yea, how shal the Gospel it selfe be estee­med? Thus do you marre al vnder a pretence of zeale in reproouing sinne. Yee are the most vnprofitable of al o­ther in the Church: and therefore the first that are to be cut off.

If those accusations be wicked and deuilish, which are a­gainst most foule and monstrous a­buses, [Page 81] for the defence of the cause of Christ: then are mine wicked and deuilish. But how wicked and deui­lishe a thing is this, that he which findeth fault with that which God doth manifestlye condemne in his worde, is counted wicked and deui­lish: but he which is a false accuser, in defence of anye corruption, y ^e same man is alowed. Wo be to them that call good euill, and euill good: dark­nesse light, and light darknesse. Ies. 5. Hath not God ordained, that faithful and wise sheepeheardes shal feed his flocke, and defende them from the wolfe, and bring them to life euerla­sting? Doth not the worde of God shew, that where such are wanting the flocke doth perish, and goe to de­struction? Doe you thinke then, there can be any readier way for the deuil to throw downe the Gospel, or to de­stroy the church, thē to famish mens soules? By what way are men led to Hell more readily, then to be left in their blindnes, and in their sins? Is not the readiest way vnto this, to set [Page 82] blind guides, and such as may leade the people vnto all vngodlines? Can the Deuill if he did make, and sende foorth ministers, find worse vpon the earth, then sundry are? I thinke if he will haue worse, he must bring them from hell. The world seeth this, and doth wonder. The lord God open the eyes of those which made them, that they may sée, and be ashamed, and re­pent. But you say, if there be such of­fence in making ministers, yet infe­riours are not to meddle, it is a saw­cines in them, it is publique authori­tie, that must refourme. No deubt it is publique authoritie that must re­fourme. But what then? Are the mi­nisters of Gods word when they pub­lishe his will, become sawcie? Shall the great God, whose messengers they are, be dishonoured, his church laid waste, and his people destroyed, because they must respect persons? Doe not you know that God sen­deth his seruauntes euen vnto high and low, to reprooue them when they do amisse? You shew your selfe to be [Page 83] proud and sawcie against God, that yee will haue his worde giue place vnto mortall men. Were not the most of the Prophetes inferiour per­sons, and yet they reprooued openly the high Priestes, when they did de­generate, and spared not any of what degrée soeuer? The Pope and his Bishops can chalenge no more, then to doe what they luste, and that without controlement, of anye but them selues, which affirme that the power to redresse thinges is onely in their hands. We may not giue those titles vnto euill ministers that the Prophetes in the scriptures do. And why? Because we haue not the spi­rite of the Prophetes. This is as deepe deuinitie as any that yee could dig out of the bottome of a Dung­hill. I pray yee what Spirite shal the Preachers of the Gospell be fur­nished with all, if not with that ho­lye Spirite of God, which the Pro­phets spake by? Is there an other holye Ghoste? In deede the Pro­phetes had great and extraordinary [Page 84] giftes of the spirite to doe that which we cannot. But doth it therefore fol­low that we may not reprooue sin as they did? It is one principall part of the duetie of the Teachers, where in they are to follow the steps of the A­postles and Prophets. The offence is publike and open euerye where, and yet men must be restrained frō spea­king publikely against it. But you shew diuers great hurtes that ensue by open reproouing this matter. The ministry, yee say is brought into con­tempt by this meanes, and it were much better mens infirmities were couered, then that should happen. As though the true ministerie coulde be brought into contempt, by reprouing that which is corrupt? It shoulde ra­ther bee considered, that it shoulde bring them into contempt with god, and all Godly men, if they should not reprooue them. For then they might séem to shake hands with them, & to alow their vngodlines, & not to care how this high calling be defiled by laying it vpō vile persons, they might [Page 85] also be thought not to pity y ^e soules of men? do not you sée, that if fools which are base, beggerly, and vnciuil, and of lewd conuersation shoulde be made Iudges, it woulde be the greatest dis­grace to the office that might bee? The hurt resteth not you shew, in de­facing the ministry, but reacheth vn­to those that made them. In deed it is their discredite which made them, And that is the cause why the true teachers are hunted and tossed about. For if they preach against the insuf­ficiencie of any of the ministery, or a­gainst their lewde life which all see? Then they post vp, and carry newes. My lord, such and such preach against your Lordship. I warrant yee those teachers shal haue as much a doe to defend them selues, as to teach their people. But this is that which doth marre all, when those that be of ho­nour, are by any meanes brought in­to contempt: For they doe counte­naunce the Gospell and y ^e ministry, and were it not for them, the Gospel should be little esteemed, nor the mi­nisters [Page 88] thereof. Alasse, is the glorye of the Gospel no greater, nor the dig­nitie of the ministerie no more, but that they must ebb and flowe, with the worldly honour and glorye of some men. How vnwise do yee take our Sauiour Christe to be, that he layde his glory a side, and tooke vp­pon him the shape of a Seruaunt, Phil. 2.6. that he might bee a minister of the Gospell? How vnskilfull was he in choosing such simple men to be his A­postles, as hadde no glorye to coun­tenaunce the matter? Hee might haue come with greater pompe. But he sayeth, My kingdome is not of this worlde, Iohn. 18. verse 36. Saint Paule sayeth, The weapons of our warfare are not carnall, but mightye in God. 2. Corinth. 10. If that were a good reason which you make, then were it a speciall matter, that there shoulde be as great glorye and pomp in the ministerie as euer the Pope and his Cardinalles had. For the same reason set them vp at the firste. No, no, the dignitie and esti­mation [Page 87] of the ministerye doth con­sist in the power of Gods spirite in them. 1. Corinth. 2. verse 4. This spirite doth alwayes cause those mi­nisters to be had in great reuerence in whom he speaketh, although they be neuer so base in outwarde appea­raunce, as Paule was. Contrary­wise, let a minister of the Gospell glister in Golde, and sit so high in glory and power, that his feet be a­boue the heades of Emperours and Kinges, yet neuerthelesse hee shall be vile, and euen stincke in the nostrels of men, beeing voyde of the power of the spirite, which is the furniture of a right minister. For God sayth, I wil honour those that honour me, and they that despise me, shalbe despised. 1. Sam. 2. ver. 30. And what sayth the Lord by the Prophet Malachy vnto the Priestes Chapi. 2. verse. 9? Doth he not tell them, that because they departed out of the waye, hee had made them despised, and abiect vnto all the people. Then yee see it is God that bringeth such as bee of great [Page 88] dignitie into contempt, because they degenerate: yee saye the people are vnquieted, because they can not tell whom they maye beleeue. It is a la­mentable thing y ^t they haue in these dayes beene kept in such blindnesse, that they can not trie y ^e Spirits, 1. Iohn. 4.1. Iohn. 10. nor are not able to know the voyce of Christ, or at the least can not see who walke after the worde of God, and who doe not.

I graunt it is a readie way to destroye the Church, where mens soules are famished. Who goeth about any such matter? God be thanked, the worde was ne­uer more plentifully set foorth. They need not famish, for where they haue not a Preacher, yet they haue the Scriptures read vnto them in their owne language: they haue Prayers and Homelyes, as good as anye can bee made. There bee manye good Bookes, they maye reade, or heare them read: but such as you, that con­demne reading, are those that fa­mish mens souls, if any do. Yee are [Page 89] vngodlie, and vtter enimies to mens souls, when ye wil lead them frō the Scriptures vnto your expositions: as though they could profite by hearing and reading youres, and not by the reading of the Byble. Where ther be blinde guides and hirelings, the peo­ple perish, no man doth deny that: you say many of the ministers bee such, I say they bee not: for they set out the word & Sacraments, though not by their owne learning. But let it be graunted, that some of them bee blinde guides, yet the people neede not perish, for there bee others that watch ouer them, besides the mini­sters, the Byshops and Archdeacons: these are not blinde, but haue their sight better then the Puritans. O, but these can not suffice, with al their learning and Godlinesse to guid the people, and to keepe them in good or­der, but forsooth euery congregation must haue one to preach vnto them: this were good, but where will yee haue them? if ye can finde men, wher are the liuings that shall maintaine [Page 90] them? will yee haue Preachers to liue with tenne pounde, or twentie pounde a yeare, surelie yee are verie Doltes, and woulde haue ye knowe not what. I woulde you coulde see your owne follie, which verie Chil­dren doe sée, that yee mighte bee a­shamed, the people are well if yee coulde let them alone, and are come from Poperie. But if they bee not Puritans, by and by yee enter into iudgement against them, and con­demne them to bee Athiests and wic­ked men, yea, to bee reprobates, and for this cause yee crie out, the peo­ple perish, mens soules are fami­shed and murthered for lacke of preachers: are not the people (which you saie perish and go to destruction) Christians? do they not at their ende call vpon God, confesse their sinnes, and hope to be pardoned by the death and bloudshedding of Christe? howe then dare you bee so wicked and pre­sumptuous, as to iudge of them, that they be damned? Will you en­ter into Gods secretes? I thinke bet­ter [Page 91] of such honest poore men, which are dutifull subiectes, and liue quiet­lie, thogh they haue no teaching, then of such as you: the state of our church would be better, if all were such, be­cause there should be more quietnes, then there is now.

If euer there were anie time, in which the words of our sauiour Christe were verified, when he saith, If it coulde be possible, the elect should be deceiued, it is nowe: there be such goodlie shewes and co­lours made and set vpon matters, to holde the people contented in their ignoraunce: for what is proclaymed nowe? and vnder what doe those that destroie the Churche, shrowde them selues, but the Gospell, the peace of the Church, obedience, lear­ning, grauitie, and Godlinesse: All these are moste excellente thinges, and therefore when they come but for a cloake (as they doe vnto ma­ny which haue not the vse and bene­fit of them) the daunger is y ^e greater. Yee say the people neede not famish [Page 92] the gospel is so plentifully set foorth? what preached? no that is but heere and there. How then? that which is as good as preaching: the scriptures are read in their owne tongue, with homilies and prayers, as good as a­ny can be made. There be also many good bookes: yea syr, but what sayth the holy Apostle. 1. Cor. 1. ver. 21. he saith, It is the pleasure of God to saue those which beleeue by foolish preaching. Wil ye not giue the Lord leaue to saue that way which it plea­seth him? or will ye prescribe him an other, that shal be a wiser way? Faith commeth by hearing, and how shall they heare without a Preacher? Rom 10. the Priestes Lippes must keepe knowledge, and they must seeke the Law at his mouth, for he is the mes­senger of the Lord of Hostes. Mala. 2. vers. 6. Those thinges which thou haste heard of me among many wit­nesses (sayth the Apostle vnto Timo­thy) the same commit vnto faithfull men, which may bee meete to teach others. 2. Tim. 2. vers. 2. You sée then, [Page 93] Gods pleasure is, to worke fayth and to saue by preaching: his ordi­naunce and appointment is, that skilfull, wise, and godly pastors shall féede his flock: they must instruct and teach thē in the misteries of y ^e gospel, and lay open vnto them all the coun­sels of God, They must preache the worde and be instant, in season and out of season, they must conuince, reprooue, exhort, with all long suf­fering and doctrine. 2. Timo. 4. vers. 2. They must watch ouer the soules of men, as those that shall giue ac­count vnto God for them. Heb. 13. vers. 17. I pray yee tell mee, can the dumbe Idoles, hirelings, and vngod­ly men do this? God must néeds take men to heauen that way which you deuise, although it be flat against his owne ordinaunce. God hath promi­sed to giue his Spirite, with the true ministerie which hee sendeth to pub­lish remission of sinnes in his name, by which spirite he conuerteth mens soules: will ye therefore binde him to doe the same, to a false ministerie? [Page 94] are yee not ashamed thus to mocke with GOD, and to abuse his peo­ple? the reproche and shame of this will neuer bee done awaie with a­nie Sacrifice or burnt offering. Yee say we condemne reading, and some of yee are not ashamed with Brasen faces to affirme it, euen oute of the Pulpit. We exhort and stirre vp the people vnto the diligent reading of the Scriptures, and where shall a man finde so manie Bybles and te­stamentes in the handes of the com­mon sorte, as where those Puritan Preachers (as you tearme them) haue anie while continued? A man would thinck, considering howe ma­nifest a lye it is, that the Diuel him­selfe woulde bee ashamed to vtter it, as I haue hearde some of yee, be­cause the ministers set foorth the worde and Sacramentes (though it bee not by their owne learning) you saie they bee no blinde guides nor hirelings, what manner of set­ting out is that when the people do not receiue instruction? they doe as [Page 95] much as lieth in them prophane the worde and Sacramentes. But what though there were blinde guids and hirelinges, yet the people are well ynough, they depende vppon the bi­shops and Archdeacons, which can see better then Puritans. These I trowe can suffice to keepe the people in order. I pray yee what can they see, or what do they see? to leade the people to Heauen, or to builde them vp in good order in the fayth? Noe, no, they can see that they shal be kept in blindnesse, as they are, but what can they doe vnto those whome they neuer saw nor knew? doth there goe such vertue out of a Byshoppe or an Archdeacon, that it can spreade it selfe ouer all the Country, euen to saue their soules, that neyther heare nor see them? shall the blinde bee ledde by those that neuer come nigh them, or by those that are presente and take them by y ^e hand? for shame holde youre peace. Yee confesse it were good, y ^t the people were taught euery where, but where will yee [Page 96] haue so many teachers? and if there be men, ye demaund where ther wil be liuinges for them? To the first I aunswere, that the want of Godlie and diligent preachers is to bee im­puted to the Bishops: for euen as if they had conspired the death of the Church, they haue laboured to sup­presse and diminish them. To goe a­bout to put out thirtie or fortie in a shire, and then to saie, where shall we haue preachers, is an odde kinde of question? To fill vp the roomes so soone as they be voide, with Taylers, and seruingmen, or such like, so that the learned men in the Vniuersities not called foorth, do hold stil their fel­lowships in Colledges: the yong men therby constrained for want of maintainance, depart from thence before they be halfe ripe, some to teach schol­lers, some into gentlemens houses, & manie to pop into the ministery be­fore they bee méete to guide them­selues, and then to demaund where shall wee haue learned men, is also verie absurd? To the seconde I aun­swere [Page 97] that if Bishops, Deanes, and, all the fat ones of the Cleargie did not loue their owne bellyes, more then the thinges which are of the Lorde Iesus: and if they did not esteeme the pompe, pleasures, and richesse of the worlde, more then mens soules, there would be such sufficiencie of maintenaunce, that if there were fiue Preachers where ther is but one, yet none of them should be so bare as to liue with 20. pounde by the yeare. We read Actes. 4. that when the Church was in need, such as had possessions, sold them to relieue the bodies of the bretheren that wanted: How much more then ought those, which haue their thousandes, to imploy and bestow the same to haue the soules of men fedde? Mens soules do famish you saye; if it be so, it is because in ma­nie places they haue not maintenaunce for a Preacher. I praye yee which of the fedde men, haue deminished their pompe, their richesse and pleasures, which neuer did penyworth of good in the Church, to set vp faithfull Tea­chers? What drop of zeale for Gods [Page 98] glory doth appear in manie of thē? But if this seeme harde, as it will to worldly minded mē: yet why haue they cōsented y ^t a number should do nothing but hunt after benefices & prefermentes, and to heap vp liuing vpon liuing, so y ^t one mā must haue y ^e portions of fiue or six? some which are past this, & haue put all their treasure in one bag, will confesse this is abhominable: but which of thē doth seek redres. If y ^e people be in so good case as you say, thē ther needeth no redresse: For you say they be wel, & are come frō popery. I maruel to what they be come? they say in deed y ^t the pope is naught, but try thē, & ye shal find, that they are stuffed ful of popish and supersticious opinions which are contrary to the wholsom doc­trine of the gospel. The scriptures eue­ry where doe describe true Christians to bee holye and pure, and full of the knowledge of God. And as for those that walke in darkenesse, wallowing in all filthie vices, the Lorde denoun­ceth vengeaunce against them. When the true and faithfull Preachers doe teach men that they can not be saued, vnlesse they tourne from their euill [Page 99] wayes, seeking after the true know­ledge of God, and walke woorthie of the same: and that such as be supersti­cious, such as be swearers, such as bee couetous, such as be drunkards and A­dulterers, such as be ignorant despisers of the knowledge of the will of God: fi­nally, such as liue in anie abhominable vices, are not true Christians: by and by like warriers for the Deuils kingdom, ye saie we would haue y ^e people become Puritans. A man can not so soone mis­like grose sins, but straightway: O syr, you like none but Puritans. You iudge and condemne men. Howe can you tell who haue faith? Surely if this bee not to seduce, to harden, and streng­then men in their wickednesse, I know not what is. Might not all this bee spoken to the Prophetes of God in olde time by the false Prophetes, which did flatter the wicked, euen as such as you be doe now? It woulde make a mans heart bleed to see in what case mul­titudes of people are for want of tea­ching, and yet you say they be wel. The greatest multitude by manye partes [Page 100] doe not vnderstande the Lordes prayer, the ten Commaundementes, or the Ar­ticles of the faith, or the doctrine and vse of the Sacramentes in anye com­petent measure. There be thousandes which bee men and women growen, which if a man aske them howe they shall be saued they can not tell. As for wickednesse, in pride, enuie, hatred, & al sinns y ^t can be named almost, it doth o­uerflowe, & yet you are not ashamed to say, are they not christians? do they not call vpon God at their ende? This is y ^e deuinitie of some of our great diuines at this day. Let men liue as they lust in ignoraunce and all abhominations, so they call at the last, and say Lorde haue mercy vppon me, we must iudge their estate as good as the best. As though the Lorde had not sayde, Yee shall crye and not be heard. Prouerb. 1. And as though such as know not the faith, bee­ing brought vp in blindnesse, coulde of a soudden, euen at their pleasure, pray in faith without doubting. For the Scripture sheweth that he which doth doubt in his prayer, shall obtayne no­thing. [Page 101] Iames. 1. Our sauiour willeth men to striue to enter in at the straight gate, shewing that fewe shall finde it. If a man maye follow his lustes, and walke in the blindnesse of his heart all his life, and then a little calling at the last would serue: What hardnesse were in it? When yee tell men God is mer­cifull, all men sinne, what shoulde yee make your selfe more holy then other? Yee ouerthrow all the doctrine of re­generation, and all the precepts which the Apostles doe giue for walking wor­thie the Gospell. You make the good and the bad in one condition, as though there were no profite to serue the Lord, as he complaineth Malachy. 3. But wherefore doe great men now a dayes take it so grieuously, y ^e anye difference of men should be made? Surely I will tell yee the cause. They would not haue their treason against the Church of Christ espied, when they thrust vp­pon them wicked and vnlearned mi­nisters: For they woulde haue men taught, and men vntaught, men Godly and men wicked, all in one account: [Page 102] that it might not appeare howe they murther mens soules. Nay yee like best, as yee confesse of those that be ig­noraunt. And why? Because they are quiet. In deed you are least troubled with those which be moste ignoraunt, for they can not espie your dealing. Such as haue knowledge in Gods worde can saye, what a wolfe is this? he hath three benefices, and setteth a Tailer in one, a drunckard in an other, And how he flaunts it? He doth visite them once in a yeare, to see that they doe him no wrong in his tithes.

If I had authoritie I would punish yee sharply, and make yee carrie a better tongue in your head. For if this may be suffered, we shall haue e­uerie man a controller shortly. Yee are the vilest men that liue, and indeed such as do most hurt of all others. Yee are a pestilent generation, in my iudgement worse then the Papistes.

Who could imagine that in this great light of the Gospell it might come to passe, that for spea­king against such thinges as God doth [Page 103] flatly condemne in his worde, men should bee counted the vilest persons that liue? A pestilent generation. Worse then the Papistes? For what is it which we condemne in the mini­sterie, but such thinges as the Lorde him selfe hath first condemned? We crie out againste ambition, couetous­nesse, greedines in heaping vp liuings, worldly pompe, idlenesse, and such like. We finde fault, that vnfit men, both for learning and conuersation, are set to be guides ouer the Lordes people. Doth not the Lorde by his Prophetes and A­postles reprooue the same? And yet if you had authoritie we must be sharpe­lie punished. All men maye see what spirite doth possesse your heart, when you woulde sharpelie punish for reproo­uing that, which the Lord him selfe re­prooueth. If yee did punishe me, all the world shoulde see that it were for spea­king against vice. But I know you wil say it is not for speaking against vices, but for charging such men as are free from thē. The world were wonderfully chaunged, if these vices were not to be [Page 104] found: and whither they abound among vs, let al men iudge that be indifferent. Then when they be spoken against, & no particuler men named, but among many, some are blamed: why shold those which are not guilty take it grieuously? Let those wintch which haue galled backs: for they say, rub the galled horse and he will wintch, and some Horse is so pitiously galled, that if a man come into the Stable, and doe but point to­wardes him, he will snib and take on, for feare the finger shoulde touche his backe. Euen so play you: for if you had authority you woulde punish me sharp­ly. We are charged to doe the moste hurt of all others: surely then it is vnto non-residents, double beneficed men, i­dle and slow-bellies, vnlearned Mini­sters, that this hurt is done by vs, for in trueth it is the part which you de­fend, which doth the hurt. First vnto the Lord God, then vnto our soueraign Lady and gracious Queene, and lastly vnto her faithfull subiects.

This is a foule and a shamefull slander, and in my mind [Page 105] you woulde bee driuen and forced to make proofe of your wordes, and bee made to recant them. I knowe your speech doth tend euen against some that are chiefe Ministers in the Church. It is not meete that inferiour personnes shoulde speake of them and of their do­ings.

There shall neede no greate inforcement to make me prooue that which I haue saide. For if I can not shew it to be true, let me loose my life. My wordes tend against those that are guilty, and none else, whether they be cheefe Ministers or otherwise: and whereas you say that it is not meete, that inferiour persons should speake of cheefe ministers and of theire doo­ings: the Pope can challenge no more. The people spake of oure Sauioure Christ, and he was content they should scan his doings. The people did speak of the blessed Apostle S. Peter, & found fault that he had gone in vnto men vn­circumcised and had eaten with them, because he had beene with Cornelius. Peter doth not disdaine, but satisfieth [Page 106] them concerning his fact. Actes. 11. But the Pope and his generation, are so highe aboue CHRISTE and his Apostles, that they maye not bee spoken of. Well against whom­soeuer it bee, I sayde that the part, which you defende dothe the hurte, vnto God, to oure gratious Prince, and to her true subiectes. And nowe I will shew ye how. First, by the corrupt ministerie Gods name is dishonoured, because his holie ordinance is defiled and brought into contempt: the dignity of his Sonne Iesus Christ is abased, when ther are put into that office which hee had, and doe represente his per­son, such as men woulde scarce trust to keepe their Swine. Notable iniurie is done by this meanes also, vnto our Queenes moste excellent Maiestie, be­cause it hath long time endangered her moste roiall person, by strengthning her enemies. For where the people are kept in blindenesse, the Iesuites can easilie worke vppon them, there neede no greate perswasions, but to tell the poore ignoraunte creatures, [Page 107] that this is a newe religion, and will not you doe as youre Graundfather, and youre greate Graundfather did? Will you bee wiser then they? Doe yee think they be damned? they knew not this learning. You may see what manner of Gospell this is, when they make suche Ministers. Was not your Minister a Cobler? Was not the Minister of such a place an Innekee­per vntill he was bancrupt? And thus they maye leade them at theire plea­sure. Againe, who is able to reckon vp the manifolde disorders and abu­ses that spring from the Dumbe and vngodly Ministerye? and let a man speake agaynste any of the same abu­ses and disorders: Shall hee not by and by heare this. O sir, you will bee wiser then the Queene and her Counsayl, they allow of these things, and will haue it thus. Is not this a shamefull iniurye, doone vnto her Maiestye, and her moste Honourable Counsayle, when all suche matters shall bee cast vppon their shoulders? [Page 108] Furthermore, from whence doth the great aboundaunce of all kinde of wic­kednesse and prophanesse among the people spring, but from thence that they want instruction? and doth not this in­daunger the state of the prince, and the whole Lande? doth not the Lorde gree­uously plague whole Kingdomes for sinne? lastly the iniury done to the peo­ple is manifest. Solomon saith, he that keepeth backe his corne, the people doe curse him. Howe much greater is the wrong, when the breade of life, vppon which their soules shoulde feede is ta­ken from them? Thus haue I shewed by whome the hurt is done: It might be shewed in an hundred thinges, but these are manifest, and of great impor­taunce.

You and your fel­lowes do the hurt (as I said before) and then ye woulde lay it vpon others. And after ye haue vttered some imaginati­ons, then there be an hundred things in which it might be shewed. Your tong is not so tied, but that it would be wal­king, if there were such matters. Look [Page 109] whatsoeuer ye say, it must goe for pay­ment, after ye haue made some shew in that ye haue deuised. Ye are euē conspi­red with the Papists: ye haue the very properties of the Annabaptistes, and he that shall marke the end, shall see what it will come to, if ye bee let alone. But I pray God ye may bee cut short, and that we may not any further feele the effect of your seditious doctrine. I hope ye will be seene vnto speedily.

Whether they be i­maginations which I haue vttered, I leaue to the iudgement of such as bee wise. I doubt not, but if they be tho­roughly wayed, they shall be founde ex­ceeding waighty. You gather by my si­lence that I haue no matters: Surely I dare affirm, that he which shall take vpō him to vtter al particulers, in such abuses as are manifest, and doe hurt in our Church, had need to do nothing else for one whole day, and take the longest in the year. Your accusations against vs be stale, when ye charge vs to haue conspired with the Papistes, and to haue the properties of the Annabap­tists. [Page 110] Your own consciences do witnes that wee are farre from these sortes of men. The Papists and Annabaptists knowe well enough, that of all other we doe least serue their turne. Wee loue the Papistes so well, that we wish there were not a shread of their King­dome left, nor so much as one relique of theirs, euer to bee seene among vs. The end of all our trauail is, to builde vp the walles of Hierusalem, and to set vp the throne of Iesus Christe, our Heauenlie King in the middest there­of, and to bring the people in subiecti­on vnto him: howe soeuer Sanballat and Tobiah, doe accuse vs, that wee meane to rebell. You pray that we may he cut short, and that yee may not feele anie further the effect of our seditious Doctrine. It is the Doctrine of Iesus Christe, and the effect of it which you feare is, to cut downe worldlie pompe, Couetousnesse, and idlenesse in the mi­nisterie. You feare that if it take place, that you must parte with two of youre Benefices: Naie, you feare that you shall get no higher, there bee manie of [Page 111] yee, which haue layde a Platfourme howe to come vnto wealthe and dig­nitie. Yee fear that the great roomes will bee little woorth before youre turne come, and that dothe cause you to frette and rage againste the Prea­chinge of the Gospell. Yee deuise all the fleshlie reasons which yee can, to maintaine and vpholde Corrupti­ons: Yee beate youre Braynes, and spende youre Wittes to deface Gods Ordinaunces, and why doe yee this? forsoothe euen for the Churches sake, for the peace of the Churche, and for Obedience and good order: Yea, e­uen as muche as Iudas had a care for the Poore. It is well seene, that if there were not greate wealth and ho­noures, for which yee contende, yee woulde scarce open youre mouthe for suche matters, as nowe yee defende as eagarlie as if it stood vppon your liues. The Ministers of the Gospell must alwaies passe thorough troubles, but the Lorde Iesus will looke vnto them.

There are none so [Page 112] couetous and ambitious as your selues: And that maketh yee to grudge and re­pine at those which haue wealth and honour, because yee can not come by it. Yee are loath to bee inferiours, your mindes be so proud and stately. I know if a man will hearken to all your slaun­ders and false accusations, you can hold him a whole day, yea three dayes, and let them be the longest in the yeare: but tell but truth, and then a lesse time wil serue well ynough. As I sayd before, if there were matter it shoulde not be co­uered.

Yee say we conspire with the Papistes, but your maner of dealing is so like theirs, y ^t a man would think ye were ioyned together in y ^e de­fence of one cause. For when Luther dealt against the pope, by & by, they cri­ed out that it was, because he could not come to that preferment which he de­sired. So play you against vs, when we reprooue those forenamed vices in the Cleargie. For yee say we doe it because we can not abide to be inferiours, and because we can not come to dignitie [Page 113] and wealth, this wicked surmise of yours, hath no colour or shew of trueth. It is well knowne, that there be not a few, which could as easily come to their Benefices as you, if they woulde la­bour for them, and that might attaine vnto great dignity, if they woulde set their minde that way: but they haue learned, that such as bend them selues to seeke after liuings and promotions, do not serue the Lorde Iesus, but their own bellies. If you could iustly charge men, that they had sought and laboured for dignity, and yet missed, then were there some cause for ye to say so, but seeing it is otherwise, me thinketh, if there were but a drop of common ho­nesty in ye, such speech could not be vt­tered: Ye do also iump with the papists after this sort, when the Seruaunts of God reprooued the pride of the Pope: then what was the common voice, but that if these men bee not looked vnto, haue at Kings next? So now reprooue Ambition and worldly pompe in the Cleargy, and what followeth? Let prin­ces and Noble men take heede: these [Page 114] men will haue a fling at them shortly: but blessed be GOD, it is well seene, that the casting downe of the Pope, is the exaltation of Princes. For while he standeth like that prowde Senacha­rib King of Ashur: euery Rabsaka, yea, euerie one of his Captaines, will take himselfe to bee, as good as King Eze­chias, Iesa. 36. ver. 9: But let this go. You vrge me to speake of abuses, and you say, that if I speak but the trueth, a short time will serue. But I say, hee that will declare the corruptions, but of your spirituall Courtes, hee maye hold himself occupied a good peece of a day, and yet speake but trueth. I know not where a man shoulde beginne, or whome he shall finde to be the worst: the Iudge himselfe or the Scribe, the Proctors or the Summoners: This is sure, all of them regard nothing but Money. All the whole Court is gui­ded by one rule, but that is a Golden rule. The people maie not speake a worde, for if they doe, they bee Re­belles, Rebelles, and speake against [Page 115] the Queenes authoritie: When as in deede the Queenes Lawes are broken, and her Subiectes greatly a­bused.

Marke your do­inges who will, and hee shall finde this property in yee, that all your drift is agaynste authoritie. Nowe the spi­rituall Courtes come in, great cor­ruptions are in them. If it be as you saye, it is pitty they shoulde stande. But it is well seene, howe soeuer suche as you barke agaynste them, that as they bee appoynted for cor­rection of Vices, so they doe muche good: none repine at them, but such as can not abide to bee punished for their disorders. If some officer doe a­misse at some time (as all can not bee good) what reason is it that yee should so lewdlie accuse the whole Courte? you make the Iudges, the Scribes, the Proctors and Summoners, all a­like. If I were an Archdeacon, Of­ficiall, or Commissarie, I would take the lawe against ye for a slaunder. You say al is done for monie, & the Lawes [Page 116] are broken, and the Queenes subiectes are abused. I doubt not, but if yee were put to your proofe, yee woulde eate your wordes.

He that will marke, shall finde this quality in a number of yee? that a man cannot so soone speake against corruptions and abuses, in such as abuse their authority, but straight­way yee accuse him, as one which can not abide to bee vnder anye gouern­ment, because hee woulde not be cor­rected for his disorders. You knowe well ynough, that this is a shrewde ac­cusation to bring men into suspition, cheefely among those whome GOD hath set vp in high authority. This is the crafty wilinesse of the Serpent, that men might be terrified, and made to keepe silence, what so euer enormi­ties be committed. But you shall not terrify mee from speaking that of the Spirituall Courtes, which is open and apparent vnto all men: Neyther shall yee euer bee able to make me eate my worde. I knowe such Courtes were appointed for the correction of vices, [Page 117] but nowe they cherish vice, and correct vertue.

I see your ma­lice doth breake out further and fur­ther: I will take notice of your words, and desire those which are present to remember them. You sayde all is done for money, the Lawes are broken, and the Queenes subiectes abused. You add further, that they cherish vice and correct vertue. These I tell you plain, be foule accusations, and you accuse all in generall, none excepted.

I did speake gene­rally, or rather indefinitely, but yet my meaning is not to include euery parti­culer person. But my meaning is, that for the most part the Courtes be such: I doe not say all are such, for I knowe not all. I trust in God there bee some fewe that either are, or haue beene iud­ges in such Courtes, that doe feare the Lorde. My speeche doth not accuse them, hee that is cleare, is not to bee greeued: whereas you take such notice of my words, I woulde I might before the cheefe in the land, vnder the pain of [Page 128] sharp punishment if I failed, bee dri­uen to make proofe againste the spi­rituall Courtes, that all is done for Monie, that the lawes are broken, the Subiectes abused, vice cherished, and vertue punished.

If you dare bee so bolde to take vppon you, such a mat­ter, you may let vs knowe somewhat nowe.

You seeme to bee suche a Straunger vnto the matter, that you knowe nothinge. I mar­uaile howe you should bee ignoraunt in that which is so manifest and ap­parantlie knowne, that the verie Of­ficers of such courts which haue their liuing that waie, are afraid they should bee accounted impudente, if they shoulde denie that monie beareth the swaie among them. Let y ^e church-war­dens tell what they paie for their quar­ter Billes, for Bookes of Articles: if the Booke be woorth two pence, the price must bee sixe pence. What say you to the probates of Testamentes, what excessiue extortion is committed [Page 119] that waie? but of all other thinges, the greatest gaine commeth in, when some welthy mā is in for adultry. For he wil come off somwhat roundlie, rather then stand in a white sheete. If the matter be verie plaine and manifest: yet that the court maie seeme to deal honestlie, and hide the fauor which is shewed, he must haue his compingators: and then come in the vilest men that can bee picked, such as be the moste notorious Drun­kerds, and men past shame, and so he is quit by al his peeres. It hath fallē out y ^t for y ^e better speede, some that haue bene absolued (being presented for euil vices & excōmunicate) haue by & by like good honest men bene sworn to help out their neighbor. The Proctors for their fees take part on euery side, it is a very fowl clowt which they wil not help to wash. The summoners they raūge abroad to driue into y ^e net: but their cheefe gaine is out of the Court: It is better to take a cheeze or a bushell of wheate, then 4. pence for y ^e citatiō, especially whē their good masters wil cōtinue y ^e fee. whē any ministers are presēted by churchwardēs [Page 120] for any grose vices, that bill is nipt in the head, and buryed in the pocket of a gowne. Shall it be thought credible, that among all the Church-wardens and sworne men in a shire, there bee not a number of that honesty that they will not be periured? They must pre­sent such ministers as do not catechise, such as be Carders, Dicers, Alehouse-hunters, such as liue in suspicion for incontinencie. What a rablement are there of these? And yet how manye of them haue beene punished? There is no Godly Preacher, but doth loath this dealing, and that setteth these Courtes at deadly warre with him. They touze him, he is a disobedient fellowe, he is worse then dogges meat. The people which imbrace the Gospell are much suspected to beare small liking vnto these Courts, And therefore, manye of them are cited, which haue Idoll mi­nisters at hoame, and goe vnto other Townes to heare the worde preached. Syrah, you are a disordered fellow, you breake the Queenes lawes, you do not keepe your parrish Church. When an­swere [Page 121] is made, we haue no teaching at home, we goe to be taught. What is replyed, yee shall be made to tarry at home. But for this time, pay the Fees of the Court, which is sixteene pence a man, and get yee hence. They answere, we are poore men, we haue wrong to be cited for this matter, we trust yee will spare vs. If any do not pay his sixteene pence, then there goeth out an excom­munication from the Scribe, vnder the name of the iudge. Lay these things to­gether, & tell me whether mony do not beare the sway, the Queenes subiectes be not abused, the lawes broken, vice cherished, and vertue punished. I haue hearde, that he which is presented vnto a benefice, should haue his institution & induction, for xvi. shillinges or there a­bout: And now it is grown to 3. pound if it be not more, vnder some Bishops.

I doe not know for mine owne part, whether it be so: but in deede it is a generall accusation a­mong all men, that there is great cor­ruption in those Courtes. It is great pitty, if it be so. But there is no calling [Page 122] nor office, in which there will not grow abuses. We may not reiect a thing be­cause it is abused.

How would ye haue men liue, if they maye not take their Fees. They y ^t take paines must be paid for it. The officers are at no smal charges, for their meat and for their Horses.

No, no, these pee­uishe waiwarde men doe lie and slaun­der, and make thinges worse then they bee. It is their maner to make great matters of nothing.

If you count this to lie and slaunder, what would you saie if all should be tolde. I doubt not but as y ^e Lorde saith to Ezechiel, I will yet shew thee greater abhominations: So he which knoweth the secreats and parti­lers, in these Courtes might make men wonder, considering that all goeth vn­der the name and title of the Gospell. It can not be, but they will wax worse and worse, because they bend thē selues against those that be good, and are an arme vnto the wicked.

They bend them­selues [Page 123] against none but disordered per­sons, that will not obeye lawes, those you count good, but they may be coūted rebels. Such as be honest & quiet sub­iects, and like not of your waies, those be the wicked whom you speake of.

You speake much of disordered persons, that will not obeye lawes, whom you terme rebels. If you wait vntill such time as they make re­bellion, your eies will sincke into your head. Where did you see that those men (whom you terme Puritanes) did euer giue anie suspicion of tumult or rebel­lion? they haue learned, that they ought to spende their liues in defence of their Prince, and that it is damnation to re­sist the powers which God hath set vp. Rom. 13. You al say they be but trifles which men sticke at. And in words you wil seeme to wish y ^t they were in y ^e bot­tom of y ^e sea. Are those rebels which stagger at some things which you confes be trifles & might be spared? Thē what wil yee account of Bishops & Archdeacons, which breake godly lawes, which be of substance? they seeme to be zealous for [Page 124] the defence and maintenance of lawes, but it is not so, for then would they not breake the lawes. They are afrayde, that euerye one which refuseth to sub­scribe to all that they would haue him, doth disalow of the Hierarchie. They be afrayd that all Puritans do beleeue that onely our Lord Iesus, and no mor­tall man may haue the honour, to be cal­led Archipoymen or Archiepiscopos prince of Pastours, and prince of Bi­shops, 1. Pet. 5. ver. 4. They are afraid that these waiward Puritanes, take it vnmeet, that christ shold be in the shape of a seruant while he preached the Gos­pell, & his ministers and officers should be as Dukes, and Earles, and Barons, and the noble pieres of the world. Hinc illae lachrimae. This is the soare. From hence ariseth all the warre. The thing is so manifest, that shortly they must lay aside all pretence of the Gospell, and of the peace of the Church, and say plaine­ly, we fight for our owne estate. And I pray ye, let me go a little further. Was it euer seene, that all the filthie men of the worlde, and such as are rotten in [Page 125] their sinnes did take part with Christ, with his Apostles, or with the Godly which succeeded them? Will the soul­diers of Sathan seeke to vpholde the kingdome of Christ? Goe through the land, take a view, if yee find not this, let me loose my life. Namely, that all the rancke adulterers, common drunkards, vnthrifts, ruffians, & horrible swearers, despisers of the worde of God, doe take part with the Bishops, and cry downe with these rebell Puritans. Looke fur­ther, and yee shall finde that many Pa­pistes, which will be loath to heare a Sermon, do now bestirre them, where there is any whom they terme a Puri­tan Preacher, to enquire what matter he vttered, that he may bee complained of and put downe. Who carry the com­plaintes, but such as haue lost all shew of honestie? These (although they bee neuer so full of all vngodlines) are now become the good subiectes. These be honest and quiet men: well, I trust the Lord Iesus shall neuer need the seruice of such. Who reioice so much nowe as the Papistes? They see the Preachers [Page 126] of the Gospell withstood, and defaced. They see that such as haue laboured most diligently to instruct the people, and to drawe them from the errours of poperie, are accounted the worst men, and soonest put to silence. This maketh them alreadie verie crancke and to set vp their bristles, and to speake boldly. It is a common thing now, not in cor­ners, but in the open streates, sounding in the eares of manie, these Gospellers be rebels, these professors be knaues, it were no matter if they were hanged.

The Papists haue no cause to reioyce, nor to set vp their bri­stles, because the Puritans be defaced. They haue strengthened the Papistes. You speake of the preachers, the Prea­chers, as thogh they were y ^e onelie prea­chers. God be thanked, there be a num­ber of learned Preachers besides them: Other maner of men then they be. If they be as you saie thirtie or fortie in a shire, what is y ^t to the whole number of learned men? And for y ^e nūber you speak of, I wisse, there be sundry which are no great learned men, which neuer tooke [Page 127] degree in the schooles. The rest might be better aduised, and shew them selues more dutifull subiects. You complaine of those which take part with the Bi­shops and Archdeacons against the Pu­ritans; as namely that all despisers of Gods word, adulterers, drunckards, ruf­fians, and vnthrifts, and other such like: I praie ye are there not as great faults among the Puritans? Are not they full of hatred and malice?

You seeme to make ve­rie light that thirtie or fortie preathers shoulde be put to silence in a shire, be­cause y ^t is but a smal number compared with the whol multitude of learned mē. I know the number is smal in deede, in respect of the whol ministrie: but if you respect faithful & diligent Teachers, it shalbe found a great number. Set a side y ^e greatest part which be vnlearned, and come to such as be learned. First reckon vp the number of non residents & duble beneficed men, which in deed are verie many. Some of thē attending about the Court, some in Bishops houses, some ly­ing at London, some in the vniuersities. [Page 128] looke next vpon those idle Preachers, which preach once in a quarter, or once in two moneths, and are more in the bowling alley then in their study. Last­ly, consider what vnskilfull men doe preach: yea, rather prophane the holy worde of God: and what vngodlie men there be of them: and in how great num­ber all these are, and you shall see a mi­serable, & lamentable face of a Church, when thirty or forty, which taught dili­gently are taken away. I graunt there bee some which neuer tooke degree in schools, but yet can so handle the word, y ^e sundry which are Doctors, may be a­shamed, that they be not comparable to them. You know there be sundry, whom you reproche with Puritanisme, which haue taken the highest degree in the schooles. Many others also which haue taken the other degrees, and doe not go without the Doctorshippe for want of learning. You woulde haue those that professe the Gospell to be accounted as euill as the Drunkardes and Adulte­rers. You charge them with hatred and malice, no doubt it commeth to passe, [Page 129] that among those that professe y ^e gospell there be hipocrites. For want of plenti­full instruction, there be also sundrie weake. But the hatred & malice which you speake of, is, that they will not bee partakers with vngodlie men in their euil waies, that causeth them to speake so much of malice, and want of loue. For it seemeth the greatest hatred in the world vnto carnall men, when any mis­like their waies. This is it which Saint Peter speaketh of, in the fourth chapiter of his firste Epistle, which I also cited before. Wherein (saith he) it seemeth to them straunge, that yee runne not with them vnto the same excesse of riote, therefore speake they euill of you. He is blind y ^t seeth not this plenti­fully fulfilled in our time. You saie, they might shew them selues more dutifull subiectes. It falleth out somtimes, that those which are the worst subiectes, and such as do Princes verie great hurt, doe accuse those to be euill subiectes, which of all other are the most faithfull. Did not Abner and other of King Saules Councellers, take them selues to be his [Page 130] best subiects? and yet who led him from God vnto his destruction but they, by stirring him vp to persecute Dauid? Did they not accuse Dauid to be a trai­tour, & yet who was so faithful and true harted vnto his Lord as he? Wise men must not be carried away with a blast of wordes, nor with some colour of matter which vngodly men neuer want against the good.

I perceiue it is but in vaine to spende the time in talking with such as you, which are obstinately & wilfullie bent. You will be singuler.

Obstinacie and wil­fulnes can not be, but in an vngodly and naughtie matter. For a man can not be too stedfast in the truth. Let the cause be good, and the more stiffe and constant the minde is, so much the better. If I haue vttered or defend anie falshood, let me be conuicted, and I will yeeld. If I be not conuicted, what reason is there that I shoulde be charged with wilful­nes or obstinacie? If Iesus Christ and his Apostles be of my side, what wic­kednes is it to say I would be singuler?

It were well if yee would all agree, & teach vs that be of the laiety by your good example, for that ought to be in yee. And how shal it be expected at our hands to liue in vnitie, & to do well, when those are at discord and variaunce which should instruct and guid vs? Can yee exhort vs vnto concorde, and your selues at variance?

You speak of that which was neuer seene in this world, nor neuer shall. For so long as God hath faithfull messengers, so long will also the Deuill haue his vngodly instrumentes. These can neuer agree, y ^e one part seruing god, & the other liuing viciously. And I pray yee, how or wherin wold yee haue them to agree? Which part shall condescend vnto the other? Which part shal yeeld? Shall those that holde the truth giue o­uer? That is abhominable to bee spoken and shall neuer be. Will those that are vngodlie yeelde & submit them selues vnto the truth? No, their stomach will not let them, though they be conuict in conscience. Moreouer, this is to be no­ted, that such a man as is not sanctified, [Page 132] but delighteth in worldly lustes, cannot abide the puritie of y ^e word, which doth condemne him. Herein the world is in­iurious, that they crie out for vnitie, v­nitie, blaming alwaies that part which holdeth the truth, because they woulde haue them yeelde vnto their affections, seeing they cannot abide to forsake their vild lustes. Againe, a number of yee bee­ing ouercome of your carnall lustes, are glad to make this pretence and excuse. We cannot tell what to do. The Prea­chers cannot agree, they be all naught, what shold we giue heede to follow any thing which they teach? these be hellish and brutish speeches. Yee must seeke out which hold the truth, which call yee vnto true godlines, and amendement of life, and with them yee must be at vnity. The true Preachers are not to exhort men to be at such an vnitie as you ima­gine. But they must teach them to flie the fellowship of the wicked. I woulde to God men woulde consider this, and tourne vnto him, and not like Giants fight against him.

I do not thinke y ^t anie [Page 133] do fight against God: You shoulde not vtter anie such speeche vnlesse yee did know it to be true: a man can not fight against God, vnlesse hee hate God, and I dare not iudge so euill of anie man.

You think none fight against God, because whomsoeuer a mā fighteth against, him he hateth and you dare not iudge so euil of anie man, to be so fowlie giuen ouer, as to hate God. It is grose ignorance in ye, which seemeth to be excellent modestie: For if you had eies y ^t could discern, you should see how horriblie some men doe hate the Lorde God, and desperatlie fight against him. Moste true it is, y ^e wicked men are so blinded, by a iust iudgment of God vp­on them, y ^t they think they loue God, or at least y ^t they do not hate him: But we maie not iudge according to the sence of flesh & bloud, but according to the sacred truth of holie scripture: by which I wil make the matter plaine vnto yee. The blessed Apostle Rom. 8. doth affirme y ^t such as walke after the flesh shall dye. He rendreth a reason, which is, that the wisdom of the flesh, is enimity against [Page 134] God? And whie is it enimitie against God? or whie doth the holy ghost charge it to leaue hatred against him? because (saith the Apostle) It is not subiect to the law of God: neither in deede can bee. Marke this well, for it is euen as a thūderbolt, wherby al y ^e wicked are stri­ken down: they bear themselues in hand y ^t they loue God, they make open brags and vaunts, that they be his friendes: but you maie learn heere frō the mouth of the Lorde him selfe, that whosoeuer are not Subiect to the obedience of his law, they bee his enimies and doe hate him. Then doth it follow, y ^t whosoeuer do fight against his word, or anie parte thereof, they are his enimies, they doe hate him & fight against him. Then let vs come to the matter. Is there anie reasonable man but will confesse, that Gods worde doth commaund learned & godlie ministers, to teach and guid his people? Doth not y ^e scripture laie woes and curses vpō those y ^t be contrarie? Is it not his holie ordinance y ^t euerie shep­heard shall attend vpon y ^e flock of which he hath taken the charge and ouersight? [Page 135] Do not those then monstrouslie fight a­gainst God, and hate him, which in ser­mons, in their bookes published abroad, do with reasons drawne from the wise­dome of the flesh, defend non residentes, double beneficed men, & the vnlearned ministery, with sundrie abominations? The dreadfull vengeance of God doth hang ouer the heads of such men, vnlesse they repent in time. They doe against their Conscience, for they can not but know such things as be euill. The loue of y ^e world doth carrie thē vnto it. God hath also commaunded that his messen­gers shall be well intertained, that his Church maie be built. Do they not then directly fight against him, which deface & molest them, depriuing multitudes of people of the foode of theire soules: This is yet a more shamelesse matter, y ^t euen such as be old turncoats, & it is to be feared, readie to saie Masse again, are great instrumentes. Such beeing known athiests, are not ashamed to step into the Pulpit & to charge the Godlie & faithfull messengers of the Lorde, to be Atheists, rebells, traitors, & I know [Page 136] not what. If the cause bee good, let not such guiltie persons defend it, take such as be not spotted: Shall those stand as y ^e champions in the Lords battell, which haue imbraced this present worlde, and seeke after gaine? These fight for their bellie, & not for the Lord. Those whom the people calleth greedie Dogs, could not be more greedie then these: for they be neuer satisfied. The Lord giue them repentance or else disburden his church of them.

I am sorie there is a­nie such taske in my house: If you will go to your chambers all things are readie, the Night is well spent.