Crowley.

IN the yeere of our Lord. 1586. there came to my handes (by what meane I doo not well knowe, but by the pro­uidence of God, I am sure) a certaine booke, that had béen im­printed and published in Do­way in Fraunce, (in the yéere 1575.) in the Englishe Tongue. That booke is intituled: A notable discourse, plainely and truely discussing, who are the right ministers of the Catho­lique Church: written against Caluin and his disciples, by one Maister Iohn de Albine, called De Seres, Archdeacon of Tolossa in Fraunce. Wherunto are annexed certaine Of­fers, made by a popish Catholique, to a lerned Protestāt. &c.

This booke lay by me (as a thing whereof I made small accompt) tyll the moneth of May in the yéere .1587. When hauing (by occasion) more spare time, then in long time be­fore I had, or could haue: I tooke this booke in hand, and did deliberately reade ouer, both y ^e booke and the offers. I found both the booke and the offers, to stuffed with coulour of pie­tie, [Page] trueth and sinceritie: that I coulde not but thinke that the hauing of this booke in secrete, hath béene one great cause of the Apostacie, of so many young men, as haue in late yéeres fallen away from the pure profession of the gos­pell, and haue imbraced and professed, and doo still professe most vnpure Popish religion.

The booke was first written, by the aboue named Iohn de Albine (as it may be thought) either in the Latine, or in the French tonge: Wherefore I meane not to bestow any time in the answering of it, supposing that either Beza, or some other French Protestant hath already dealt therein sufficiently.

But because the offers séeme to be made by some Eng­lish man, and haue not (as I thinke) béene aunswered by any man: I haue thought good to supply the place of that learned Protestant, that the Popish Catholique, ment to make the offers vnto.

And that the Offerer (if hee be yet liuing) or any fréende of his (if he be departed this lyfe) may not haue any cause to mislike with my dealing herein: I minde to setfoorth to the view of the Reader, all the words of the Offerer, euen as I finde them, and as I haue them to shew, in his printed Cop­pie, which I haue, and doo mind to kéepe, in a readinesse to shewe, not abiding or dimnishing, altering or changing, one sentence, worde, sillable, letter or title. The Offerer begin­neth thus.

The Offerer.

First, seeing it cannot bee denied, that our sauiour Christ before his departure, and ascension, did commit the charge and gouernment of his Church, the testimony of his worde, the truth of his gospell, the ministration of his Sacraments to his Apostles and Disciples, and that not on­ly for them selues, but to their successors Bishops and Priests, and to none other, saying only to them: Euntes do­cete omnes gentes. Math. 28. Marc. 16. Goe yee and teach all people and nations of the world, baptizing them in the name of the father, and of the sonne, and of the holy ghoste, teaching them [Page 2] to obserue and keepe all things which I haue commaun­ded you.

Further, the Apostle Saint Paule being at Miletum, in executing of his charge & gouernment, gaue this admo­nition to the Bishops, and Priestes there assembled before him, saying: Attēdite vobis, et vniuer so gregi. Act. 20. Take heed vnto your selues, and vnto the whole flocke of Christ, in the which the holy ghost hath ordayned you Bishops: Regere ecclesiam Dei, To gouerne the Church of God. And in the thirteenth Chapter of his Epistle to the Hebrews hee dooth commaunded all other sortes of men, without exception of Emperours, Kings, Queenes, and Princes, to obay their Bishops and priestes, saying: Heb. 13. Obedite praepositis vestris, & subiacete eis, ipsi enim peruigilant, quasi rationem pro animabus vestris reddituri. Obey your Prelates, and doo what they appoint you, for they doo watch, as men that shall render accomptes for your soules.

Seeing that by the testimonies before alleadged it can not bee denyed, but that the charge and gouern­ment of Chryst his Church, the preaching of his doctrine, the admninistration of his Sacramentes, was by him com­mitted to his Apostles and Dysciples, and to all By­shoppes and Priestes as Successours of them, to plante Chrystian fayth and Religion in his Catholique Church vniuersally throughout all Nations, Coastes, and Quar­ters of the world. Seeing this is by the playnnesse of the sayd testimonies of such an vndoubted truth, that it cannot bee denyed: now let the learned protestant, af­firming princes to bee the supreme heades of the Church, eyther shew by some such other like playne testymonies of the Scriptures, that our Sauiour Chryst did commit the chyefe charge and supreme gouernement of his Church to Emperours, Kings, Queenes and Princes, to plant Christian fayth and Religion in the same, or that any one of Chryst his Apostles or Disciples did conuert any people, Lande, or Countrey, from their Idolatrie and Ethnike kinde of liuing, to Christian faith and Re­ligion [Page] by preaching the doctrine of the Protestants: as of onely faith to iustifie, the contempt of good workes, and that they be all vncleane in sight of GOD, the deniall of free will, of the real presence of Christes body in the holy Eucharist, of the Sacrifice of the most blessed Masse, the abolishing Christ his Sacramentes, and of all grace and goodnesse by them conferred vnto vs, then I shall yeelde and recant, and not before. Thus farre, the first part of the Offer.

Crowley.

This Offerer hath deuided this offer of his, into 22. parts, adding to the last part, six certaine and assured signes and tokens of false Prophets, Heretickes & Schismatickes. This diuision I meane to follow in mine answer. To this first part: therfore, I say thus, maister Offerer. I cōfesse, that our Sauiour Christ dyd (as you haue sayd) committe the charge and gouernement of his Church, the testimonye of his worde, the trueth of his Gospell, and the ministration of his Sacramentes, to his Apostles and Scholers: and to theyr successors. But not to such successours onely as you do name: that is to Bishops and Préestes onely, and to none other. For S. Paule, in the 12. Chapter of his first Epistle to the Corinthians, and in the 4. to the Ephesians, writing of the same matter, sayth thus. Et ipse dedit, quosdam quidem Apostolos, Eph, 4. quosdam autem Prophetas, alios vero Euangelistas, alios autem Pastores & Doctores. And he hath giuen some, Apostles or Messengers, and some Prophettes, and other some Euangelistes, and some others Pastors and teachers. And againe, in the 12. of the first to the Corinthians, hee writeth thus. 1, Cor, 12. Et quosdam posuit Deus in Ecclesia, primum A­postolos, secundo Prophetas, tertio Doctores, deinde virtutes, ex­inde gratias curationum, opitulationes, gubernationes, genera linguarum. God hath place in his Church, certaine de­grees of men: first Apostles, secondly Prophets, thirdly tea­chers, then powers, after that giftes of healings, helpes, go­uernements, kindes of tongues. Least you should quarell a­bout [Page 3] the translating of S. Paules wordes out of the Gréeke? I haue set them downe as I finde them in that translation, that your Tridentine councell hath allowed of. But I pray you (good M. Offerer) what meant S. Paule, that in the re­hearsall of those sundry degrées of men, that God hath pla­ced in his Church, he would make no mentiion at al, of your Bishops and Préestes, to whom onely (as to the onely suc­cessours of his Apostles and Disciples,) Christ spake (if you haue written truely) when he sayd thus. Math. 28 Euntes, docete om­nes gentes. Goe ye, and teach all nations of the worlde, &c. Without all doubt, S. Paule dyd know (and so doo wée) that God dyd neuer place in his Church, or appoint to succéede his Apostles and Disciples, any such Bishops and Préestes as you meane of. That is, Lording, and loitring Bishops, exercising dominion ouer the peoples that are alotted vnto them: and sawsie sacrificing Préests, which presume to oc­cupie the place of Christ himselfe, and to execute his office, in offering sacrifice for the sinnes of the people. S. Peter dis­aloweth the one: 1. Pet. 5. and S. Paule the other. Hebr. 10. Hebr, 1 [...] 1, Peter, [...] Yea if our Sauiour Christ dyd speake only to such Bishops and Préests, as you doo appoint to be the successours of the Apostles and disciples of Christ, when he sayd. Euntes, &c. Goe, and teach all nations of the worlde, &c. Howe hath that his commaundement béene, or howe is it ex­ecuted, sith they (commonly) neither doo nor can teache, those thinges that our Sauiour commaunded his Apostles, and scholers to teach and to doo? The successors of the Apo­stles and scholers of our Sauiour Christ, to whome those wordes were at the first and be still spoken: must bee such as God hath, dooth, and shall make méete to doo his message to men of all sortes, to foreshewe vnto them by the Scrip­tures, what hangeth ouer theyr heades, if they will not re­garde the message, to comfort them, with the assurance of the performaunce of the swéet promises, which God hath made in the blood of his sonne Christ Iesus, to foster, féede and nourishe them, with the foode of his heauenly worde, and to teach and instruct them in the way of the trueth, so [Page] that they may be able to discerne betwéene the broad way y ^t leadeth to destruction, and that narrowe way that leadeth to lyfe euerlasting, and to continue walking in that way, euen to the ende of their life in this transitorie state. Thus much doo those wordes signifie, which I haue cited out of the fourth Chapter of S. Paules Epistle to the Ephesians. And in the wordes that I haue cited, out of the 12. Chapter of the first to Corinth: Saint Paule hath added, that these wordes of our Sauiour Christ were spoken to them also, whom God hath, dooth, or shall make mighty, endueinge them with power from aboue, making them able to stande against, and to withstand, yea and vanquishe the ghostly e­nimies, that is, the deuill, the world, and the fleshe, to cure sicknesses and diseases, to succour, helpe and comfort the weake and féeble, to gouerne the simple, and to vnderstand and speake diuers languages. All this may be vnderstan­ded in these wordes of S. Paule: God hath placed in his Church, certaine degrées of men, first Apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, after that, powers, after that giftes of healing, helpings, gouernementes, and diuersities of tongues. So that these words, go and teach all nations. &c. Were spoken first to the Apostles and Scholers of our Sa­uiour Christ, and then to all such (their successours) as God hath, dooth or shall make méete, any way, to teach those thinges that he hath commaunded to be taught & practised.

But now M. Offerer hath found, that S. Paule being at Miletum, hath admonished y ^e Bishops & Priestes that were assembled before him there: saying. Attēdite vobis, &c. Take héede to your selues, and vnto the whole flocke of Christ, in which the holy Ghost hath ordained you Bishops, Act. 10. Regere Ecclesiam Dei. To gouerne the Church of God. And againe in the 13. Chapter of his Epistle to the Hebrewes, Saint Paule dooth commaund all other sortes of men, without ex­ception of Emperours, Kings, Quéenes and Princes, to o­bay their Bishops and Préestes, saying: Obedite praepositis vostris, & subiacete eis, ipsi enim peruigilant, quasi rationem pro animabus vestris reddituri. Obey your Prelates, and doo [Page 4] what they appoint you to do, for they doo watch, as men that shall render an account for your soules.

Héere is subtile Sophistrie, in the stéede of probable reasoning, and profound Diuinity. These testimonies bée so plaine, that it can not be denied, but that as the charge & gouernement of Christes Church, &c. was committed to Christs Apostles and Disciples: so the same is committed to Popish Bishops and Préestes, as to their successors. But I pray you (good M. Offerer) let vs consider of these two places that you haue cited.

Saint Luke, reporting the Actes or déedes of the Apo­stles, sayth, that Saint Paule hasting towardes Ierusalem, would spend no time in Asia, and therefore determining to passe by Ephesus, sent messengers thether, to require the Elders of the congregation, to repayre vnto him, being then in the Iland Mil [...]t [...] (which is now called M [...]l [...]a.) These Elders you doo name Bishops and Préestes. But the Gréeke worde that S. Luke vseth there, can not by any meanes signifie eyther a Bishoppe or Préest, of that sorte that you speake of. For [...] dooth signifie one that is elder or more auncient in yéeres, or more honorable then they be a­mongst whom he liueth. And such were they, that common­ly were chosen in those dayes, to be teachers, instructours and gouernours in the congregations or Churches of Chri­stians: and therefore they were called [...] Obseruers watchmen, searchers, & such as had the ouersight of things committed to them. But your Bishops and Préestes, most bee such as the Grecians doo call by the name of [...] or [...] That is, a Préest that offereth sacrifices. But héere I will make you one offer (M. Offerer) which shalbe thus. If you can finde in any of the Bookes of the newe Testa­ment, that eyther our Sauiour Christ speaking of the mi­nisters of the new Testament, or any of the Apostles wri­ting of the seuerall sortes of ministers that our Sauiour Christ hath ordayned to serue or minister in his Churche, haue vsed eyther of these Gréeke woordes [...] or [...] which doo signifie a sacrificing Preest: then will I recante [Page] the Protestants doctrine, and subscribe to your Papisticall doctrine, and not before. In the place that you haue cited out of the 20. Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, S. Paule calleth the ministers of Ephesus, [...] that is, watch men or ouerséers, appointed by the holy Ghost [...] that is, to gouerne the Church of God, in such sorte as a shéepheard dooth gouerne and féede his flocke, but not [...] that is to exercise lordlike authority ouer them, as your meaning must néedes bée, that your Bishoppes and Préestes should. For you say that S. Paule dooth commaund all other sorts of men, without exception, &c. To obay their Bishops and Préestes: saying. Obedite, &c. Obay your pre­lates, &c. And here I must néedes note your corrupt man­ner of handling of this place of S. Paule. He himselfe dooth beséech those Hebrewes that he worte vnto, to suffer, or to take in good part, that short exhortation that he gaue them: but you say, that hee commaunded them (yea though they were Emperours, Kings, Quéenes or Princes) to obaye theyr Prelates, and to doo what they appoint. In the Latine you cite the wordes, Hebr, 13. as they are in the vulgare translation, allowed in the Tridentine councell, Obedite, &c. It pleaseth you to set downe for Praepositis, Prelates, minding (as it sée­meth) to make vs beléeue, that such Prelates as you call Bishops and Préests, must (by S, Paules commaundement) be so obeyed of all Emperours, Kings, Quéenes and Prin­ces (and so by good consequence, of all persons that are infe­riour to these) that whatsoeuer these Prelats shall appoint to be doone, must of necessitie be doone, by all men and wo­men of euery degrée, as though such Prelates onely, (and none other) might be in the Latine called Praepositi, and in the Gréeke, [...] Which Latine and Gréeke wordes doo signifie all manner of superiours, whether they be of the ecclesticall or ciuill state. Yea and that dutie of watching, as men that shall render an account for the soules of men: is common to all those superiours of all sortes, wherefore you haue dealt very iniuriouslie, in that you haue restray­ned that duety of watching to your Prelates onely.

Saint Paule in his Epistle to the Romanes, the 13. Chapter, writeth thus. Omnis anima, Rom. 13. potestatibus sublimioribus sub dit a sit. Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers, &c. If you had séene and considered what Chrysostome writ­teth vpon these woords of Saint Paule: I think you would neuer haue written as you haue done, affirming that saint Paule hath commaunded all manner men, without excepti­on, (yea, though they were Emperours, Kings, Quéenes, or Princes) so to obey your Prelates, as to doo whatsoeuer they shall appoint them to doo: Chrysost. in Rom. 13. for Chrysostome wryteth thus. Etiam si Apostolus sis, si Euangelista, si Propheta, siue quisquis tandem fueris. Neque enim pietatem subuertit ista sub­iectio, Et non simpliciter dicit, obediat, sed subiecta sit. Although thou shouldst be an Apostle, an Euangelist, or a Prophet, or what maner of man soeuer thou shouldst bée. For this sub­iection, dooth not subuert pietie, or godlines. And hée dooth not simply say, Let euery soule obay, but (hée saith) Let it bee in subiection. Thus much Chrysostome, writing vpon the first words of the thirteenth to the Romaines.

And in the same Chapter that you cite out of the Epi­stle to the Hebrewes, saint Paule seemeth to haue the same meaning that hée had when hée wrote to the Romaines. For thus hée writeth to the Hebrews, in the latter end of the thirtéenth Chapter. Salutate omnes qui praesunt vobis, & omnes Sanctos. Salute all them that are your Rulers, and all the Saintes.

If these Rulers that saint Paule willeth the Hebrews to salute, were such as you say they were, when hée com­maundeth them to obey (that is to say Bishops, & Priests) then was not this Epistle written to them, but to the infe­riour sorte amongst the Hebrews, which is a thing too ab­surd to bée graunted. For what ciuilitie, honestie, or wise­dome, may that man bée thought to haue, that would write such an Epistle as this, to the inferiours of any congrega­tion of Christians, and not to the superiours of the same congregation? These Hebrews were Christians, and dwelt (as my bée thought) in sundrie Cities, within the [Page] Dominions of the Emperour of Rome. As in Hierusa­lem, or in any other of those Cities that had belonged to y ^e kingdome of Israel, or in any other kingdome or prouince. And it is like, that the Apostle (being in Italy when hée wrote this Epistle) had some occasion to admonish them, of that opinion which commonly the posteritie of Abraham held: which was, that they ought not to liue in subiection to any rulers that were not of the same posteritie: And therefore hée wrote vnto them as before, Obedite, &c. O­bey your Superiours, and submit your selues vnto them. And as in this place, Salutate, &c. Salute all those that be in authority ouer you. As though hée should haue said thus. I know that you would gladly bée gouerned (as you are Hebrews borne) by such as bée Hebrews, as you are, and (as you are Christians) by Christians as your selues bée: But sith you sée, that God will haue it otherwise: let such as God hath set ouer you, haue their due honour at your hands: Obey them, honour them, serue them, giue them all tributes and customs due vnto them, and pray to God for them, that you may leade a peaceable and quiet life vnder them. And that they may the rather bée mooued to bée fa­uourable to you: salute them in my name, and in like ma­ner, salute all saitns, that is, all Christians, though they bée of the Gréekes, that they may know, that both I and you, doo estéeme of them, as of fellow members of that one bo­dy, whereof Christ is the head.

This may bée the meaning of the Apostle, in those woords that you haue cited, and in the other that follow. But it may bée that some of your sorte will say, that in the seuenth verse of the same Chapter: the Apostle hath writ­ten thus, Hebr, 13. Memores estote, &c. Bée mindefull of those your rulers, that haue spoken vnto you the woorde of God, and follow their faith, considering what the end of their con­uersation was. Here you will say that these rulers must néedes bée preachers of the woorde. I confesse that the A­postle dooth in these woords meane of such. But shall wée therefore say that they were Bishops and Priests, such as [Page 6] you haue affirmed them to bée? It appéereth manifestly by the Apostles words, that they were the same that had prea­ched the gospell vnto them, and had continued constant, in preaching the same doctrine to the end of their liues: and had sealed it with their blood. For the Apostle saith thus. Considering what the end of their conuersation hath bin: which can not bée ment of any, that did then presently go­uerne or teach them. Yea, and how could the Apostle take vpon him to commaund Emperours, Kings, Quéenes, and Princes: to obey such Bishops, and Priestes, as the He­brews (being a simple sort of Christians) could haue to rule and teach them?

The testimonies therefore, that you alleage (M. Offe­rer) may right well bée denyed, for they testifie not that which you would affirme by them. For although the charge and gouernment of the Church of Christ, the prea­ching of the doctrine of the gospell, and the ministration of the sacraments of Christ, were committed, to the Apostles and Disciples of Christ, and to their successours: yet are not the same committed to your Bishops and Priests, for they are not the successours eyther of Christ or any Apostle, or Dysciple of Christ, except you will néedes haue them the successors of Iudas Iscariot, or of Simon Magus.

But now, the learned Protestant that you make your offer vnto, must either prooue by some such other like plaine testimonies of the Scriptures, that our Sauiour Chryst did commit the chiefe charge, and supreme gouernment of his Church, to Emperours, Kinges, Quéenes, & Prin­ces, to plant Chrystian fayth and Religion in the same: or else, that some one of Chrystes Apostles, or Disciples, did conuert some one People, Land, or Countrey, from their Idolatrie, and Ethinke kinde of liuing, to Christia [...] faith and Religion, by preaching the doctrine of the Prote­stants, &c.

For Protestants to prooue by plaine testimonies of the Scriptures, that our Sauiour Christ did commit the chiefe charge and supreme gouernment of his Church, &c. [Page] Is altogither vnnecessarie: for neuer did any of that sorte affirme that to bée true. Wée doo all know that our Saui­our Christ did not call Emperours, Kings, Quéenes, nor Princes, to make them his messengers or Apostles: but he called Fisher men and such other, and made them able and méete to doo his message, euen to Princes and Emperours, and to all other, the greatest personages in the world; As saint Paule writeth 1. Cor. 1. 1, Cor, 1, Quae stulta sunt mundi, eleg [...] Deus, vt confundat sapientes, &c. God hath chosen the foo­lish things of the world that hée might confounde the wise, and God chose the weake things of the world to confounde the stronge, and the base and dispised thinges of the world, hath God chosen: yea, and those thinges that bée not, that hée might destroy those thinges that bée: Yea, and wée doo know, that God did not prepare the hearts of the Princes and chiefe men of the world, to receiue the doctrine of the gospell with the first: so that the Apostle Paule had occasi­on to write thus to the same Corinthians. 1. Cor. 1. 1, Cor, 1, Vide­te vocationem vestram, &c. Brethren, consider your calling, for there are not amongst you many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many of noble Parentage, &c. Yea, & in the daies wherein Saint Augustin cliued, (which was 400. yéeres after the ascention of our sauiour Christ) it séemed a strange thing, euen in the City of Rome, that a­ny man of any account in the world, would become a Chri­stian man. For when Victorinus (a famous Rhethorici­an in that City) would professe the Religion of Christ and be baptized: hée did it (as Saint Augustine hath written,) Confessionum. lib. 8. cap. 2. Mirante Roma, gau [...]nte Eccle­sia. August, lib, 8, Cap, 2: Rome meruelling, and the Church of Christ in Rome, reioyceing. There is therefore no cause why you shoulde require the learned Protestant to prooue by plain Scrip­tures, that our Sauiour Christ, did commit y ^e chiefe charge and supreme gouernment of his Church, to Emperors, &c.

But this the Protestants doo hold, and are able to prooue by plaine places of the Scriptures: that Emperors, Kings, Quéenes, Princes, Dukes, and all other Potentates, are [Page 7] the supreme gouernours of those peoples ouer whom God hath placed them, whether the same people bée (by professi­on) Christians, or Miscreants. Yea, and that the chiefe charge that euery of these Potentates haue from God: is that they shall in their owne persons walke in the Lordes wayes, and leade their people in the same. And for that cause, they are in the Scriptures called Pastores, that is Shéepeheards, as in the 44. Cha. of his Prophecies, Esay, 44, Esaie speaking in the person of God, saith, Qui dico Cyro. Pastor meus, [...], & omnem voluntatem meam complebis: That is, Which doo say vnto Cyrus, thou arte my Shéepeheard, and thou shalt fulfill all my will. Cyrus was an Heathen prince: and yet the Lord calleth him his Shéepeheard: and commaundeth him to fulfill all his will and pleasure. King Dauid being a Shéepheard in déede, was taken from the Shéepefold, and made king ouer all Israell, that hée might féede that people of the Lord, euen as a Shéepeheard féedeth his flocke. And hée did rule them prudently, with all his possible powre. Psal. 78. Psalm. 78, And that these Potentates might bée able to discharge that duety that the Lord God hath ap­pointed them to doo: hée hath giuen vnto them the powre of the Sword, as in the 13. Rom, 13. Chapter to the Romaines it ap­peareth. Principes (saith Saint Paule) non sunt timori boni operis, sed mali, &c. Princes are not to bée feared of them that doo well, but of them that doo euill. Wilt thou bée without feare of the Potentate? Doo well, and thou shalt bée praised of him. For hée is Gods minister to doo the good. But if thou doo euill: then feare him, for hée beareth not a Sword for nought. Hée is Gods minister, to take venge­ance on him that dooth euill, &c.

At that time, wherein the Apostle wrote those woordes to the Romaines, there was not one Christian Prince (as it may bée thought) in all the world. And yet hée dooth certifie the Romaines, that euen those heathen Princes, were ordained of GOD, for the benefit of Chri­stians (as of all other sortes of men) that world bend them selues to walke in hys wayes, and not contynue [Page] in ignoraunce of lyfe. And for the punishment of all such as should giue them selues to leade a dissolute life.

Yea, and it belonged to the office, euen of those Prin­ces, not onely to vse the powre of the Sword in defending Innocents; and in punishing wicked doers: but also to set foorth, aduaunce, and maintaine, right and true Religion, as in the holy Histories it dooth appeare that they did, as often as by any occasion, their hearts were touched with the feare of GOD, As Darius, the Persian Emperour when hee had séene the mighty powre of GOD in preser­uing Daniell in the Lyons den, did hee not write immedi­ately to all his subiects, commaunding them to feare & to stand in awe of Daniels God: confessing him to be the ly­uing and euerlasting God, & that his kingdome & powre is euerlasting, and that it is hée that deliuereth and saueth, & worketh woonders both in Heauen & in Earth. Daniel. 6. Daniel. 6. The same Darius, (as it appeareth in the sixt Chapter of y ^e first booke of Esdras) cōmaunded that the Temple in Hie­rusalem (which had bin destroyed by the Babylonians) should bée reedified, (as king Cyrus had commaunded) and that it should bée furnished with all things necessary, and meete for the seruice of God 1. Esdras. 1. & 6. 1. Esd. 1. & 6

And amongst the good kings of Israell, and Iuda, Da­uid (not without a secret motion from God, I am sure) did cause the Arke of Gods couenant to bée brought to Hieru­salem, and placed in a Tabernacle, which hée had prepared for it there: yea, and in his owne person, hée vsed all such behauiour, as might tend to the setting foorth of the glorie of God, and abase him selfe in the sight of God, and at his owne charges, hée caused much sacrifice to bée offered to the Lord, and afterward, hée blessed the people of the Lord, and gaue rewards of meate & drinke to euery one of them, as well the women as the men. As appeareth in the sixt Chapter of the second booke of Samuell, which you call the second of the kings. 2. Reg. 6

And I pray you (good M. Offerer) who was hée, whom [Page 8] God appointed to build his Temple in Hierusalem: was it not Salomon the king? And did not hée builde it in déed: and furnish it according as the Lord had cōmaunded him? Tertij, Reg. 5. &c. And who reformed Religion, destroied the Idols that king Achas had caused to bee set vp in the Temple? was it not his sonne Ezechias? And did not the same Ezechias brake the brasen Serpent, 4. Reg. 18. bicause the peo­ple had burned Incense to it? Yea, and when the Priestes did any thing in the reformation of Religion: did they it not by the appointment, and at the commaundement of those good kings, Dauid, Salomon, Ezechias, and Iosias? Reade the History of the kings: and you shall sée.

And what? did Christ come to take this Authority from Princes? And hath hée taken it from them, and gi­uen it to Peter and his Successors? Hée him selfe hath ac­knowledged that authority in Princes: in that hée payde Tribute to the Emperour, both for him selfe and for Pe­ter. Math. 17. In the 13. Chapter to the Romaines, Math, 17. saint Paule declareth that the paying of Tribute, is an acknow­ledging of the highest authority in Princes.

Chrysostome, Chrysost in Rom. 13. expounding that place of Saint Paules Epistle, writeth thus. Cur enim, inquit, vectigalia Regi da­mus? Nunquid tanquam prospicienti? Nunquid tanquam prae­sidenti, curae, tuitionisque mercedem soluentes? For why (saith hée) doo wée giue Tribute to the king? Doo wée not giue it, as vnto him that hath a prouident care for vs? Doo wée it not, as men that pay vnto him that hath the rule of vs, the wages or hyer that is due to him, for the care that hée hath to defend vs? 1, Peter, 2 And dooth not Saint Peter (from whom your Bishops and Priests doo claime their high authority) write thus in the second Chapter of his first Epistle? Subdite i­gitur estote, &c. Bée yée subiect therefore, to euery humaine creature, euen for the Lords cause, whether it be to y ^e king, as to him that excelleth, either to Dukes, as to them that are sent of him, for the punishment of euill dooers, but for [...]he praise of them that bée good. For so is the will of God: that behauing your selues well, you may stop y ^e mouthes [Page] of foolish and Ignoraunt men: as being free, and not ha­uing the liberty for a cloke of maliciousnes, but as the ser­uants of God.

Thus, if you haue eyes to sée, you may sée, that the very testimonies that you haue alleaged (being taken in their right sence) doo prooue sufficiently, that though no learned Protestant, can prooue, or dooth or hath affirmed, that our Sauiour Christ did commit the chiefe charge and supreme gouernmēt of his Chruch, to Emperors, kings. &c. Yet the chiefe charge & sepreme gouernment of men of all sorts, hath bin alwaies, is still, and euer shalbe in such Po­tentats, euen by the ordinance of God him selfe: as by the other testimonies that I haue alleaged dooth most mani­festly appeare.

And where as you require the learned Protestant to prooue, that any one of Christes Apostles or Disciples, did (by preaching the Protestants doctrine) conuert any peo­ple, lande, or countrey, from their Idolatry, and Ethnike kinde of liuing, to Christian faith, and Religion, as of one­ly faith to iustifie, &c. I say, that neuer any one of the A­postles or Disciples of Christ, were the meanes that God vsed in the conuerting of any one lande, people, or coun­trey, by the preaching of any other doctrine, then that which you call the Protestants doctrine.

You note sixe points of doctrine, preached by the Pro­testants, which (as you say) neither the Apostles, nor any Disciple of Christ, preached. First, that faith onely iusti­fieth. Secondly, that all good works are vncleane in the sight of God. Thirdly, that there is no frée will. Fourth­ly, that the body of Christ is not really present in the Eu­charist. Fiftly, that the blessed Masse is not a Sacrifice. And sixtly, the abolishing of Christes Sacraments, and all the graces, and goodnes that is conferred to vs by them.

For the first (I say) that Christ him selfe hath taught it, in that hée hath sayd thus. Mar. 16. Qui crediderit, & baptizatus fuerit: saluus erit. Qui vere non crediderit: co [...] ­demnabitur. Marci, 16, Hée that shall belieue and bée baptized, shalbe [Page 9] saued. But hée that shall not belieue shalbe condemned.

Saint Paule hath taught it to the Romaines, Chap. 5. Rom. 5. in these woords, Justificati ergo ex fide, pacem habeamus ad Deum, per Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum: per quem ha­bemus accessum per fidem, in gratiam istam in qua stamus, & gloriamar in spe gloriae filiorum Dei. Being iustified by faith, therefore let vs bee at peace with God, through our Lord Iesus Christ: by whom wée haue accesse through faith, in­to this grace wherein wée stand, and doo reioyce in the hope of the glorie of the children of God. To take from you all occasion of quarrelling: I haue cited the words of S. Paule as I finde them in your allowed latine translation. Al­though I doo know that in the gréeke it is thus, [...] Pacem habemus, And not habeamus. Wée haue peace, and let vs not haue peace, but to a simple meaning minde: the sence is all one, whether wée say, wee haue peace or let vs haue peace. And in the end of the sentence: it maketh no difference to say, wée glory or reioyce in the hope of y ^e sonnes of God, or wee reioyce in the hope of the glory of God. For take it which way yee will: Saint Paules meaning must néedes bée, that wée are iustified, that is, wée apprehend and lay hold vpon, frée discharge of our sinnes that wée haue by the mediation of Christ, onely by faith, and by none other meane.

And againe, in the second Chapter to the Ephesians, Ephe. 2. Saint Paule writeth thus, Gratia enim estis saluati per fi­dem & hoc non ex vobis. Dei enim d [...]num est: non ex operi­bus, ne quis glorietur. For by grace (that is frée mercy) you are saued thorough faith: and that not [...] selues. For it is the gifte of God, and commeth not of workes, least a­ny man should boaste. The Epistles of the Apostle Paule are full of matter, to prooue this pointe of doctrine to bee true.

The second pointe of doctrine, is (as you doo terme it) the contempt of good workes, and that they bee all vncleane in the sight of God. Wee contemne not good workes, but wée esteeme of them as they ought to bee esteemed of: that [Page] is, as of the good fruites of a good faith. And wée teach, that no workes may bée accounted good, otherwise, or in any o­ther respect, but as they bée the fruits of a good faith. This point of doctrine was taught by our sauiour Christ, when hée sayd thus, Lucae. 17. Cum feceritis omnia quae praecepta sunt vobis, Lucae. 17. dicite, serui inutiles sumus: Quod de buimus facere feci­mus. When yee shall haue doone all that you are commaun­ded to doo, then say: we are vnprofitable seruants. We haue doone that our duety was to doo. And againe, in the 20. of Mathew, Math. 20. in the Parable of the labourers that laboured in the Vineyarde. Volo autem & huic nouissimo dare sicut & tibi. I will giue vnto this that came last, euen as vnto thée. Hée that had laboured but one houre, receiued as great a reward, as hée y ^t had laboured the whole day. The penny that is spoken of there, is the Kingdome of Heauen, and is not deserued by labour, but is fréely giuen to them that doo labour, not in respect of their labour, but at the pleasure of the heauenly Lord, of that heauenly Vineyarde, wherein they labour.

You doo therefore charge vs vniustly, when you say that wee contemne good workes, or that wée doo say that they are vncleane in the sight of God. But thus wée say, that our good workes, (yea, our best workes) as they bee wrought by vs: are so vncleane, that they are not méete to bée called good. And herein wée are of one minde wyth the Apostle Paule, who writeth thus to the Romaines, ta­king the matter vppon him selfe, and in his owne person, painting our the best amongst men. Scio (sayth Sainte Paule) quia non habitat in me, Rom 7. hoc est, in carne mea, bonum. I know that in mée, that is, in my flesh, there dwelleth no good thing. And againe, in the third Chapter of the same Epistle, the Apostle Paule citeth the woords of the Prophet Dauid, Psa. 14. Psalm. 14. saying, Non est iustus quisquam, &. There is no man iust, there is none that hath vnderstanding, there is none that séeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are al become vnprofitable, there is none that dooth good, no not on [...].

These places may suffice to prooue, y ^e works wrought by vs, cannot rightly bée called good, as they be wrought by vs. But as God worketh them in vs, so his works wrought in vs, or by as his instruments, are in déede good. And wée contemne them not: but as S. Paule teacheth y ^e Hebrews, so doo wée teach. To doo good, & to distribute, forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. Yea, wée teach, as S. Augustine did. Tom. 7. De gratia & libero arb. Cap. 7. August. lib. de grat. & libero arb. Cap. 7. Tom. 7. Si ergo Dei dona sunt, bona merita tua, Deus coronat merita tua non tanquam merita tua, sed tanquā dona sua. If therefore, thy good merites, bée the giftes of God: then dooth not GOD crowne thy merites, as thy merites, but as his owne gifts. For as those merites may bée sayd to bée ours: they are too filthy: yea, although they bée such workes as may bee, and commonly are called righteous workes. According to the saying of Esay. 64. Esay. 64. Facti sumus vt immundis omnes nos, & quisi paunus menstruatae vniuersae iustitiae nostrae. All wee are become as an vncleane person: and all our righteousnesses, are as the cloth of a menstruous woman.

I hope that M. Offerer dooth now sée, that the seconde point of doctrine that hée requireth the learned Protestant to shew, by plaine testimonies of Scripture, to bee such as the Apostles and Disciples of Christ preached, when they did by their doctrine conuert Peoples, Landes, and Coun­tryes, &c. Is by that which I haue before written, prooued to bée such doctrine in déede.

The third point of doctrine, is the deniall of frée will. Héerein also, M. Offerer dooth abuse vs (whom hée calleth Protestants.) For no learned Protestant either hath, doth, or will deny mans will to be frée, although it may (in some sence) bee affirmed to bee bound. Free it is, bicause it nei­ther is nor can bee enforced to consent to any action, al­though the outward action may bée so enforced by violence, that it may be doone or left vndoone, contrary to the inward will of the person that either dooth the action, or dooth leaue it vndoone. As when a man falleth into y ^e hands of théeues, and fearing to bée murdered by them, dooth deliuer to them [Page] his money, which notwithstanding, hee is willing to re­taine & keepe from them, if with saftie of his life hee might doo it. And yet in this case, it may bee said, that the will con­senteth to deliuer the money, being drawne (but not enfor­ced) by the consideration of the hard choise, which is eyther to deliuer the money, or to die presently by the bloody ty­ranny of the théeues.

The question therefore is not; whether the will of man bee free: but whether the powre of mans free will bee such, that it is able of it selfe to make choise of that which is good and to embrace it: and to refuse that which is euill, and to shunne it. In the sixt of Saint Iohns gospell, our Saui­our Christ hath saide thus: Nemo potest venire ad me, nisi Pater qui misit me traherit eum, No man can come vnto mee, except the Father that sent mee shall drawe him. Saint Augustine, August. in Ioan. tract. 26. In Iohannem. Tract. 26. writeth thus vpon this place, Magna gratiae commendatio. Nemo venit nisi tractus. Quem trahat, & quem non trahat: quare illum tra­hat, & illum non trahat, noli velle iudicare, si non vis errare: se­mel accede & intellige, &c. This is a great commendation of grace or frée mercy. No man dooth come without draw­ing. If thou wilt not erre, bee not willing to iudge, whom hee draweth, and whom hee draweth not: why hée draweth one man, and why hee draweth not another: receiue it and vnderstand it at once. Thou arte not drawne, pray that thou maist bee drawne: But heere, what doo wee say bre­thren? If wee bee drawne vnto Christ: then doo wee be­lieue against our willes. Then is not the will stirred vp, but violence is vsed. Any man being vnwilling, may en­ter into the Church, hee may come vnto the aulter, being vnwilling, hee may come vnto the Sacrament, being vn­willing: but beleeue hee can not, except hee bee willing. If beleefe were an act of the body, then might it be doone in them that bee vnwilling: but it is not with the bodie, that wée beléeue vnto Righteousnesse. Heare what the A­postle saith. With the heart wée beléeue vnto righteous­nesse. And what followeth? But with the mouth wee [Page 11] make confession to saluation. This confession riseth out of the roote of the heart, &c. Thus farre S. Augustine.

If there were no more to bée sayd but this: the Of [...] ­rer might be satisfied, touching our doctrine, seeing we [...]a [...]h not otherwise therein, then our Sauiour Christ did, nei­ther doo wee discent from the iudgment of the auncient fa­thers, that haue wrytten vpon the woords of our Sauiour Christ.

But let vs see, what Saint Paule hath written to the Corinth. 2. Cor. cap. 3. Fiduciam autem talem, 2. Cor. 3. habemus per Christum ad Deum: non quod sufficientes simus cogitare aliquid a nobis, quasi ex nobis: sed sufficientia nostra ex Deo est. Such assurance to God-ward, haue wée, through Christ (saith S. Paule) not that wée bee sufficient of our selues, as of our sel­ues, to think any thing: but our sufficiencie is of God.

And agayne to the Philippians, Chapter first, Philip. 2. Sainte Paule saith thus. Deus enim est, qui operatur in vobis, & vel­le & perficere, pro bona voluntate, It is God that worketh in you, both the will and the powre to performe the will.

And againe, to the Romaines, Chap. 7. Rom. 7. Ʋelle adiacet mihi: perficere autem bonum non inuenio, &c. I haue a will: but to performe that which is good I finde not. For I doo not that good thing which I am willing to doo: but the euill thing which I am vnwilling to doo, that doo I. Now it is not I that doo it, but sinne that dwelleth in mée.

By these plaine places of Scripture, it appeereth ma­nifestly, that the learned Protestants, doo teach nothing concerning free will, but that which our Sauiour Christ, & his Apostle Paule haue taught. But now to the fourth pointe of doctrine.

The fourth point of doctrine is, the denyall of the re­all presence of Christes body in the holie Eucharist. It is very true that all learned Protestants doo deny, the reall presence of Christes bodie, in the holie Eucharist. And there is good cause why they should doo so. For touching the reall presence of his body: our Sauiour Christ him selfe hath sayd (as wée reade in the 11. Cha. of S. Iohns gospe [...]l) [Page] Lazarus is deade, and I am glad for your sakes, that I was not there, that you may beléeue. If you will say, that Christes body was not then glorified (as nowe it is) and therefore could not then (as nowe it may) bee in moe pla­ces at once then one: then consider the words of S. Peter. Act. 3. Act. 3. Repent and bée conuerted, that your sinnes may bée blotted out, when the time of refreshing from the presence of the Lord shall come, & when hée shall send him that hath beene preached vnto you, euen Iesus Christ, whom heauen must containe, euen till the time of the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of his holie Prophets from the beginning.

By these woordes of Saint Peter, it appeareth, that hee knew nothing of this reall presence of Christs body in the holie Eucharist. For hee saith that heauen is the place, where the Reall bodie of Christ must bee, till that tyme wherein hée shall appeere in iudgement, which is the time of the Restitution of all thinges, as hee hath spoken by the mouth of his holie Prophets, which haue bene since the world began.

According to this dooth Saint Augustine write to Dar­danus. Tim 2. Epist. 57. Cauendum est enim, ne ita diuinitatem adstruamus hominis: vt veritatem corporis auferamus. Wee must take héede, that wée doo not so builde vp the diuinity of the man­hoode, that wee take away the truth of the bodie. For it followeth not, that whatsoeuer is in God, should bée euery where as GOD is. By this it appeereth that Saint Au­gustine knew nothing of our Offerers reall presence of the bodie of our Sauiour Christ in the holie Eucharist.

All this notwithstanding, wee hold, that the body and blood of Christ are in the holy Eucharist, present to y ^e fayth­full receiuers, verily and in deede. So that as many as doo with a full assurance of the mercies of God, promised in Christ, receiue y ^e holy Eucharist: doo vndoubtedly (by faith) receiue into their soules, the verie body and blood of Christ, to their endlesse comfort.

The learned Protestants doo not teach (as you doo slaū ­derously [Page 12] report of vs) that in y ^e holy Eucharist, there is no­thing but bread and wine: for wee know what S. Paule hath written to the Corinth. in the 10. Chapter of the first Epistle. Vt prudentibus loquor: iudicate vos quod dico. 1. Cor. 10. Po­culum benedictionis cui benedicimus, &c. I doo speake, as vn­to wise men: doo you iudge that which I doo speake. The Cup of blessing, which wee doo blesse, is it not the common partaking of the blood of Christ? And the bread which wée breake, is it not the cōmon partaking of y ^e body of Christ? The Lord hath made vs able to iudge of the meaning of y ^e Apostle in these woords, wée doo know, that as many as doo come worthely to the Lords table, and be partakers of the holie Eucharist, doo not receiue the Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, onely: but they receiue his verie bodie and blood. Although not really, substancially, and bodily, (as you imagine) yet spiritually, sacramentally, and verily and in deed. And this is according to that which saint Au­gustine hath written, in his Sermon, De Sacra­mentis fi­delium. De Sacramentis fideli­um. Hoc est ergo manducare illam escam, &c. This is there­fore, to eate that meate and to drinke that drink, for a man to dwell in Christ, and to haue Christ dwelling in him. And hereby, hee that dwelleth not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwelleth not: without doubt hee neither eateth his flesh, nor drinketh his blood, although hée doo eate and drink the Sacrament of so excellent a thing, to his owne condem­nation.

This may suffice, to certifie any reasonable man, that wee denie not that presence of Christes bodie in the holie Eucharist, which is taughte in the Scriptures, and in the writings of S. Augustine.

The fift point, that the Offerer dooth charge vs with: is, that wee denie the Sacrifice of the most blessed M [...]sse. You should haue sayd, the most abhomin [...]ble M [...]sse. For what thing can bee more abhominable, then that thing which is directly contrarie to the scriptures, and derogato­rie to that one sacrifice that Christ Iesus (our high Priest) made of himself, once for all? Saint Paule to the Hebrews, [Page] Chapter 10. Hebre. 10. (speaking of our Sauiour Christ) sayth thus. Hic vero, vna pro peccatis oblata victima, &c. After this man had offered vp one sacrifice for sinne: hee sitteth at the right hand of God for euer, waighting from hence forth, till his enemies may bee made his foote stoole. For with one oblation, hee hath made perfect for euer, such as are made holie. And the holie Ghost dooth certifie vs, when hee saith thus. This is the Testament that I will make vn­to them, after those daies, saith the Lord, giuing my lawes in their hearts, and in their mindes I will write them, and their sinnes & iniquities will I not remember any more. And where there is forgiuenes of those sinnes and iniqui­ties: there is nowe no Sacrifice for sinne. This farre Saint Paule.

What can bee written or spoken more plainely then this is, for the proofe of that which wee hol [...]e, that is, that in the Masse there is no sacrifice for sinne? Christ our high Priest, hauing offered vp one oblation, is set downe on the right hand of God for euer: and what other thing can bee ment by this, then that which followeth, which is, that by that one oblation, he hath made perfect al such as are made holie, that is, all the elected children of God, whom GOD hath by the holie spirite of santification made holie: Yea, and the couenant that the Apostle speaketh of heere dooth assure vs, that all the sinnes and iniquities of Gods Elected children, are so pardoned and forgiuen: that they shall ne­uer bée called to memorie any more. And heere vpon saint Paule concludeth, that there is no more sacrifice to bée offe­red for sinne. How dare any Christian (therefore) affirme directly contrary to these woords of saint Paule: that there is a sacrifice daily offered in the Masse, for the sinnes both of the quicke and of the deade? For that is the doctrine, that this Offerer and his fellowes doo maintaine.

1. Iohn. 1See also, what Saint Iohn writeth in the first Chap­ter of his first Epistle, Si autem in luce ambulamus, sicut & ipse est in luce: societatem habemus ad inuicem, & sanguis Iesu Christi filij eius, emundat nos ab omni peccato, &c. If wee [Page 13] doo walke in light, as hee is in light: (meaning GOD, of whom hee spake before) then haue we fellowship one with another, and the blood of Iesus Christ his sonne, doth make vs cleane from all sinne. If wée shall say that wée haue no sinne, wee deceiue our selues, and the truth is not in vs. If wée confesse our sinnes: hee is faithfull and iust, so that hee will remit or forgiue vs our sinnes, and hee will clense vs from all iniquitie.

And againe, in the second Chapter, 1, Iohn, 2. the same saint Iohn saith thus. My litle babes, I write these woords vnto you, that you should not sinne: but if any man shall sinne, wee haue an Aduocate with the Father, euen Iesus Christ the Righteous, and hee is the propitiation for our sinnes. Not for our sinnes only: but also for the sinnes of all the world.

If wée had to doo with reasonable men: this that I haue cited out of the writings of these two Apostles, might suf­fice, for defence of that which the Protestants doo held con­cerning the Masse, affirming, that there is no sacrifice of­fered therein, for the sinnes either of the quicke or of the deade.

But nothing will satisfie this Offerer, & his fellowes, the Popish Chatholiques. The Scriptures haue no cre­dit with them, except the same bee confirmed by the wry­ting of men. Bicause commonly, the Auncient Doctors, haue in their writings vsed excessiue or hyperbolicall ma­ner of speaches, to mooue the mindes of their Readers re­uerendly to esteeme of the holy mysteries: these grosse Ca­pernaites, would (by the authoritie of those auncient Fa­thers) enforce vs to confesse, that the holy Eucharist, is a Sacrifice for the sinnes, both of the quicke and of the dead. But when their works are throughly waighed, it is found that they ment nothing lesse, then to giue occasion of any such blasphemous doctrine, as these Blasphemers woulde builde vpon their woords.

Let vs see, what Chrysostome hath said in his Homilie vpon the 95. Psal. concerning the Sacrifices of the New testament. Expounding the woords of the Prophet Mala­chie, [Page] in the first Chapter. Chrysost in Psalm. 95, Malach. 1. Non est mihi voluntas in vobis, dicit Dominus omnipotens, &c. I haue no pleasure or delight in you, saith the Lord Almighty, &c. Hee saith thus, Ʋide quam luculenter, quamque dilucide mysticam interpretatus est mensam, quae est incruenta hostia. Thymiama vero purum ap­pellat sacras preces, &c. See (saith Chrysostome) how plain­ly and manifestly, hée dooth interpret the mysticall Table, which is the vnbloodie Sacrifice. Hée calleth the holy pray­ers, (which are offered vp after the sacrifice) pure incense. For this perfume is it that refresheth God, not that which is taken from the rootes that grow in the earth, but that is breathed out of a pure heart. And after hée hath noted, that the Sacrifices of the olde law were very many: hee saith thus. Quae omnia, noua gratia superueniens, vno complectitur sacrificio: vnam ac veram statuens hostiam. All which sacri­fices, the new grace that succeeded, dooth comprehend in one Sacrifice: ordayning but one, which is the right Sacrifice in deede.

Who can write more plainely for the proofe of one onely Sacrifice that our sauiour Christ offered once for all: then Chrysostome dooth in this place?

Yea, hee proceedeth yet further and saith thus: Ha­bemus & nos in nobis ipsis varias immolationes, non quae iuxta legem incedunt: sed quae decent Euangelicam gr [...]tiam: visne has cognoscere victimas, quas habet Ecclesia, quum sine sangui­ne, sine fumo, sine altari caeterisque ceremonijs, munus euangeli­cum sursum ascendit ad Deum, &c. And wee also haue in our selues sundrie offerings, which procéede not according to the law: but such as are séemely for the grace of the gos­pell. But wilt thou know those Sacrifices which y ^e Church hath, when the sacrifice of the gospell, ascendeth vp vnto God without blood, without smoake, and without Aulter, and the rest of the Ceremonies, which is also, the cleane and vnspotted sacrifice? Hearken to the holy Scripture, which dooth plainely expound vnto thée, this difference and varietie. The first Sacrifice therefore, is that which I haue spoken of before: that spirituall and mysticall gift, where­of [Page 14] Paule speaketh when hée saith thus: Jmitatores estote, Dei, &c. Bée yee followers of God, Ephe. 5. as deerely beloued children: and walke in loue, euen as Christ loued vs, and gaue him selfe for vs, a sacrifice and oblation of a sweete sa­uour vnto God, &c.

It were too long to set downe here all the woordes of Chrysostome in this place. The Offerer, Tom. 1. or some of his fellows, may reade them, as they stand written in the Ho­milie afore mentioned. It is manifest, that Chrysostomes meaning was not to maintaine the opinion of the popish Catholiques, which hold, that in their blessed Masse, is of­fered a sacrifice propitiatorie for the sins both of the quicke and the deade.

The same Chrysostome (in his 17. Tom. 4. In Epist. ad Heb. hom. 17. Homilie vpon the Epistle to the Hebrews) writeth thus, Nonne per singulos dies offerrimus? Offerrimus quidem, sed ad recordationem fa­cientes mortis eius. Et vna est haec hostia, non multae. Quomo­do vna est & non multae? Quia semel oblata est, &c. Doo not wée offer euery day? In déede, wée doo offer: but wée doo it for a remembrance of his death. And this sacrifice is but one and not many. And how is it but one and not many? Bicause it was offred but once, it was offred in the holiest place of all: and this sacrifice (which wée offer) is the Pa­terne or example thereof, wée doo alwaies offer one and the selfe same thing. And after many words to the same end: hée saith thus, Non aliud sacrificium sicut Pontifex, sed idipsum semper facimus: magis autem recordationem sacrificij operamur. Wee offer not another sacrifice, as the high Priest did, but wee doo alwaies make one and the same sacrifice: but wee doo rather worke the remembrance of a sacrifice.

Except our Aduersaries haue vtterly lost the vse of Reason, they must needes see, that Chrysostomes meaning was to teach that it is not the holy Eucharist, but y ^e death and passion of Christ (whereof the Eucharist is a remem­braunce) that is the sacrifice propitiatorie, whereby our sinnes are taken away. Euen in the iudgement of Chry­sostome, therefore, the Masse (which you call blessed) is in [Page] deede curssed, bicause it is derogatory to the office of Christ Iesus: whose comming into this worlde was to saue sin­ners. And hee onely it is, that hath saued his people from their sinns: by making a sacrifice of him selfe once for all. By which one sacrifice once made, hee hath made perfect as many and bee made holie, that is, all the Elected and cho­sen children of God. So that now there is no more sacri­fice for sinne. Hebr, 10. As the Apostle hath written to the Hebrews, Chapter 10. But what should I make any more to doo a­bout this matter: sith the Scripture is plaine on our side? Sit Deus verax, Psalm. 116. omnis autem homo mendax. Let GOD (the author of the scriptures) bée true, and euery man a liar.

Now, the last point of doctrine that you charge the Pro­testants with, is the abolishing of Christes sacraments, & of all the graces and goodnesse by them conferred vnto vs. To this I say, that no learned Protestant, either hath, doth or will abolish, or consent to the abolishing, of any one sa­crament that our sauiour Christ hath instituted, or of any grace or goodnes cōferred to vs by them. Wée confesse with S. Augustine. Ad Ianuarium. Epist. 118. August. ad Ianuarium. 118. that our sauiour Christ hath instituted verie fewe sacraments, and that the same are verie effectuall, as is Baptisme, and the Com­munion of the bodie and blood of our sauiour Christ. These two sacraments wee acknowledge to bee instituted by our sauiour Christ, as sacraments, that is, outward and visible signes, representing inward inuisible and spirituall graces. In Baptisme, the outward and visible signe is water, and the inward, inuisible and spirituall grace, is forgiuenes of sinnes, and regeneration or new byrth: both which we haue by the death and resurrection of Christ, and in that sacra­ment wee receiue a seale and pledge of the same. Yea, and where wee are by nature the children of Gods wrath: wee are by Baptisme, receiued into the church, and assured that wee are now the children of God, ioyned and graffed into the bodie of Christ, and are become his members, and that wee doo grow into one bodie with him. Yea, and being as­sured that Gods couenant and promise made to faithfull A­braham [Page 15] and to his seede, belongeth to vs and to our seede, bicause (belieuing in Christ) wee bee the spirituall poste­ritie of Abraham: wée are bould to baptise our children, as fellow members togither with vs, of the same mystical bo­die of Christ, that it hath pleased our heauenly Father to make vs members of, And when they bee able to learne, wee doo teach them to belieue and acknowledge that they bee so: and to endeuour in their life to expresse that duetie both to God and man, which was at their baptisme profes­sed and promised.

In the other sacrament (which we doo commonly call the Lords supper) the outward and visible signe is breade and wine, both which wee doo (according to Christes com­maundement) receiue. For hee hath said Take, eate, this is my bodie: and drinke yee all of this: for this is the Cup of the new testament in my blood, &c. And wee are assu­red by Faith: that as wee doo receiue the breade and wine into our mouthes and stomacks, euen so wee doo by faith, receiue into our soules, the very body and blood of Chryst, that heauenly foode, whereby our soules are refreshed and fed vnto euerlasting life. And this bodie & blood of Christ, are the heauenly parte of this sacrament, remooued from all outward senses.

But wée doo not belieue (as you popish Catholiques would haue vs belieue) that the substance of the bread and wine in this sacrament, is turned into the substance of the bodie and blood of Christ: for so it could not bee a sacra­ment, which must haue in it both an outward and visible signe, and an inward inuisible grace. Wherefore the bread and wine must remaine in their natures and properties.

Neither doo wée belieue, that this sacrament was or­deined to bee a sacrifice to God the father, for the remission of sinnes: for wee know that onely Christ Iesus hath bin and is able and worthy to offer sacrifice for the deliuerance of mankinde from sinne. And that hee hath (by that sacri­fice that hee made of himselfe, once for all) fully satisfied [Page] for the sinnes of the whole world, and hath left nothing for vs to doo, but firmely to fixe our faith in him, and thanke­fully to take the vse of this eternall sacrifice, which wee chiefly doo, when wee come worthely to the Lords table, & bee partakers of that holy sacrament.

Now, if you thinke that I haue doone that which you required the learned Protestant to doo: then shame not to yeelde and recant, and bee no longer an obstinate and wil­full blinde popish Catholique, which is an Antichristian schismaticke. But bee a tractable and an obedient Schol­ler of Christ Iesus, hearkening to, and belieuing the gos­pell of Christ, which is the glad tidings of free pardon and full forgiuenes of all our sinnes by the merites and media­tion of our onely Lord and sauiour Iesus Christ, protesting to hold euerie gospell that is contrary to this Gospell, ac­cursed, as saint Paule willed the Galathians to doo. So shall you bee a right Catholique Christian, holding and profes­sing that Catholique faith, which Christ himselfe comman­ded his messengers to teach Catholiquely, when hee sayde thus, Euntes in mundum vniuersum, docete omnes gentes, bap­tizantes eos in nomine patris, Math. 28. & filij, & spiritus sancti, &c. Going into all the world, teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, of y ^e sonne, and of the holy ghost, teaching them to obserue all those things that I haue com­maunded you. This is the Catholique doctrine that wee haue heard and learned, and doo belieue it. By hearing this woord of the gospell or glad tidings of free pardon and for­giuenesse of sinnes: our God hath wrought in vs such an assurance of Saluation, that wee doubt nothing thereof. And this assuraunce woorketh in vs an vnfayned loue to­wards him that hath adopted, predestinated, and called vs to bee meete Images of his sonne: and one of vs towards another, although not in such perfection as hee hath loued vs, and as hée commaundeth vs to loue one another, yet in some measure, and in such measure as hee in mercie allow­eth of. Wee protest therefore, that wee will hold this faith [Page 16] and still craue the encrease of this faith, and that wée may grow ritch in those workes that our Lord y ^e hath made vs, redéemed vs, & consecrated vs to his own seruice, hath pre­pared for vs to walke in. As for workes diuised by men: wee esteeme of them as wee finde them. If wee sée that they bend to the setting foorth of Gods glory, in our edifica­tion, wee vse them, otherwise wee refuse them. But the workes that God hath commaunded: wee are carefull to doo. And when by the infirmitie and corruption of our na­ture, wee stumble and fall: wée crie vnto our mercifull fa­ther for help, as being assured that hee heareth vs and in tender affection towards vs, will help vs: yea, though hee doo for a time suffer vs to lie vnder that too too heauie bur­then of sinne, vnder which wée are fallen by infirmitie. Wee seeke not to our fellow seruants, as to Angels or men: much lesse to Antichrist, the professed enimie of our Christ and sauiour. Wee trust not in our owne strength, nor in any merites that may bée in vs: but wée trust in our God and our onely sauiour Iesus Christ. And when wee haue walked vpright, and haue done that which wee are commaunded to doo, wee say (as our Sauiour hath taught vs to say) wee are vnprofitable bond slaues: wee haue done nothing but that which of duetie wee ought to doo. But now let vs sée the second offer that our Offerer maketh.

The second offer.

The Offerer.

Second, Christ his Catholique Church being on this 2 wise planted by the Apostles and Disciples of Christ, by Bishops and Priests the successors of them, had at all times a speciall care and regarde, not onely of preaching Gods word, but also of the preseruation of the same woord and gospell by writing of the sacred Bible, and holy scriptures, and did discerne and iudge them from all other writings prophane or authentique of all sortes. What Church hath [Page] had from time to time the custodie of the sacred scrip­tures, and most safely hath preserued them for the neces­sarie foode of Gods people, and from the corruption of the aduersaries, as well Iewes and Gentiles, as schismatikes and heretikes of all sorts, but onely the common knowne Catholiqu [...] Church of Christ? When therefore the lear­ned Protestants, shalbe able to bring proofe to the contra­rie, that their priuate conuenticles and Congregations, were the first bringers forth of this sacred Bible and word of God written, the chiefe preseruers and defenders of the same in all times and ages, from all Iewes, Gentiles, be­tikes and schismatikes: then will I, as I sayd before, reuolt and recant.

Crowley.

In this his second Offer, the Offerer vseth a fallace or disceit, which in reasoning is called, Petitio principij, That is, hee laboureth to confirme his assertion, wherein there is no certenty, by that wherein there is, as litle or lesse certenty) then in that assertion that hee holdeth. And yet hee setteth a face vpon it, as though nothing were or could bee more certaine, then both the assertion, and that whereby hée would prooue it, bee.

His assertion is, that the Church of Rome (which he calleth Catholique) is and euer hath bin, from time to time the conseruer and kéeper of the sacred scriptures: and this hee would prooue by another like assertion, that is, that the same Church was the first Preacher and Writer of y ^e same scripture, which hée calleth the sacred Bible and holy scrip­tures.

When the vnlearned Reader considereth this asser­tion: hée is brought into such a maze, that hee knoweth not which way to take. For this Offerer would beare him in hand, that the sacred Bible, which containeth those bookes that are called the old Testament: were neuer written be­fore [Page 17] y ^e church which he calleth Catholike did take in hād to write them. Where as in very déede, some of those bookes were written, before the first foundation of Rome was layde. Yea, hee would that men should thinke, that, that Romish Church which hée calleth Catholique: is the same that was first planted amongst the Nations of the worlde, by the preaching of the gospell amongst them. Which prea­ching began at Hierusalem, & sprang from thence, as from a most plentifull Fountaine, and was by the labour and trauell of the Apostles and Disciples of our sauiour Christ, in preaching the gospell speedily spred ouer all the worlde. And that it was this Romish Church that did first wryte the Gospels and other bookes of the new Testament, and hath discerned of those bookes that are accounted for holy scripture, and hath seuered them from all other writinges, what so euer: and hath preserued them from all corrup­tion, &c.

But such as bee learned doo know, that all the bookes of the old Testament (commonly called the Bible) were written before the Incarnation of our sauiour Christ: and therefore, before any such Church as this Offerer imagi­neth the Romish Catholique Church to bée, could haue any being. Our Sauiour him selfe hath sayd, Iohn. 5. Iohn, 5. Scruta­mini scripturas, &c. Serch the Scriptures: for you think to haue euerlasting life in them. And those scriptures bée they that doo giue testimonie of mee. And againe, the E­uangelist Luke saith thus, Chapt. 24. Et incipiens a Mose, Luc, 24. & omnibus Prophetis, &c. And beginning at Moses, and all the Prophets: hee did interpret vnto them all the scrip­tures which were written concerning him. Saint Peter also, saith thus. Act. 3. Act, 3. Et omnes Prophetae, a Samuele, &c. And all the Prophets, from Samuel forward, euen as ma­ny as haue spoken, haue made mention of these daies: yea, and saint Paule in that Epistle that hée directed to those Ro­maines, that were the first Christians in Rome: Rom, 15. wryteth thus. Quaecunque en [...]m scripta sunt, &c. What so euer things haue bin setdowne in writing, haue bin written for [Page] our learning, that through patience and consolation of the scriptures, wée might conceiue hope. And to Timoth. 2. Timoth. 3. 2. Timot. 3. Saint Paule saith thus, Omnis scriptura diui­nitus inspirata vtilis est, &c. Euerie scripture giuen dy di­uine inspiration, is profitable for teaching, for reproouing, for rebuking, for instructing, &c.

By all these places of scripture, it appeareth plainely, that the sacred Bible was written before the Romish Ca­tholique Church had hir beginning: and therefore coulde not bée first written by that Church, as this Offerer labou­reth to perswade that it was.

Yea, and the bookes of the new testament, were writ­ten by the Euangelists, and Apostles, and not by any such Bishops and Priests, as this Offerer would haue vs think to bée the immediate successors of the Apostles and Disci­ples of our sauiour Christ, and to bée the Bishops & Priests of the City of Rome. For when saint Paule being in pri­son at Rome, wrote his second Epistle to Timothie: there were no such Bishops or Priestes there, as might worthy­ly bee taken for Christians. For thus dooth S. Paule write, In prima mea defensione, nemo mihi affuit, &c. In my first defence: 2. Timot. 4. there was not one man that assisted mee, but all men left mee alone, God graunt it bee not layde to their charge, &c.

If this Offerer & his fellowes, haue any eyes to sée, they may sée: that when the Apostle Paule (being in prison in Rome) did write this Epistle to Timoth. the Bishops and priests y ^t then were in Rome, were scarce worthy the name of Christians, bicause they durst not stand to y ^e profession of Christian Religion as S. Paule did, but left him all alone, betraying the Christian cause, as much as in them lay.

Yea, and hereof it may bée probably gathered: that Pe­ter was not then at Rome, and consequently that hee was not Bishop of Rome for the space of xxv. yéeres togither, as the Romish Catholiques doo affirme that hee was. Yea, ra­ther it may bée thought y ^t hee neuer was Bishop of Rome: for this Epistle was written in Rome, the 13. yeere of the [Page 18] raigne of Nero, which was the 35. yeere after saint Paule was conuerted to Christ.

But if hee were then Bishop of Rome, hée was at that time either fled from Rome, fearing the persecution, or els being in that Citie, hée durst not shew him selfe to bée of one minde with Paule, and so by his example, the rest that then were Christians in Rome, withdrew them selues from Paule, and left him all alone.

Thirteene yeeres before this, the Apostle Paule had written to the Romaines, being then at Corinth, in y ^e last yeere of the raigne of Claudius the Emperour. And as it appeareth in the first Chapter of that Epistle: the fame of that Church was such at that time, that saint Paule wrote thus, Primum quidem gratias ago Deo meo, Rom. 1, per Iesum Chri­stum, pro omnibus vobis, quia fides vestra annuntiatur in vni­uerso mundo. First of all, I giue thankes to my God, tho­rough Iesus Christ, on the behalfe of you all: for that your faith is declared through out the whole world. The Church therefore, or Congregation of Christians that then were in Rome, were of the best sort of Christians. And bicause that Citie was then the chiefe City that then was in the world: therefore the fame of their faith was spred ouer all the world. But yet (as appeareth by that which is before alleaged) they had their faults and infirmities, which were seene in them more at one time then at another. At the first, when they receiued y ^e doctrine of the gospell, they were earnest professors and followers of the same (as common­ly men haue bin in our daies, and are still) but when per­secution began to arise for the professing thereof: they be­gan to shew them selues to bee like that seede that being sowne, fell in stony ground, and yet being againe moyste­ned with y ^t dew of Gods grace which fell from aboue, they tooke déepe roote, and so became more fruitfull in the ende. For many of that age gaue their liues for the testimony of the truth, and were Martirs or witnesses of Iesus Christ, as in the Church Histories dooth appeere.

But that these were the writers of the Scriptures, appeareth not in any Histories, for they were written be­fore, some by the Prophets, and some by the Apostles: and such bookes as were written after the time wherein the o­ther Apostles liued, were written by the Apostle Iohn, which liued after all the rest.

As touching the especiall care that you say the Catho­lique Church hath from time to time had, not only of prea­ching the word, but also of preseruing the same, &c: all lear­ned Protestants doo know, that no man could haue greater care to preach the woord, to discerne the bookes of holy scrip­ture, from prophane writings, and to preserue them from the corruption of the aduersaries, then they that in the time of the tenne first persecutions, professed the Catho­lique religion. And amongst those Catholiques: none were more forwarde therein, then were they, which then were dwelling in the City of Rome. But what maketh this for proofe, that the Romish Church hath alwaies bin, and is still, the keeper and preseruer of the scriptures? The first Romish Church (which was Catholique) preached the gos­pell, as the Apostles and Disciples of Christ had doone: but that Romish church that now is, and hath bin for the space of these last thousand yéeres (almost) being Antichristian, dooth, and hath all this while preached mens traditions, & is to bee noted with that saying that the Prophet Esay v­sed, in reprehending the Leuiticall Priestes of his time. Esay. 29. Esay, 29. Cited by our sauiour Christ. Math. 15. Math. 15. Populus hic labijs me honorat, &c. This people honour mee with their lips, they draw nighe vnto mée with their mouth, but their heart is farre from mée: In vaine doo they worship mée in teaching the doctrines and commaundements of men, &c.

The first Romish Church, vsed the Sacraments that Christ had instituted, religiously, and to that end that our sauiour Christ had instituted them for: but that Romishe Church, which you call Catholique, hath for the space of [Page 19] these 1000. yeeres almost, and dooth still abuse those Sa­craments, namely, Baptisme, and the Supper of the Lord, commonly called the Sacrament of the body and blood of our sauiour Christ. For that Church dooth minister that sa­crament to Churches, to Belles, and to Ships that saile on the seas: and of the other sacrament they make an Idole, lifting it vp ouer their heads to bee worshipped, setting it vpon their high alter, or hanging it ouer the same, burning incense before it, and vsing iestures of diuine honour be­fore it, and carying it abroade in pompous maner, compel­ling the people to doo diuine honour to it. Yea, they offer it vp to God as a sacrifice for the sinnes both of the quick & the dead: and in tempests of weather, and in coniurations, they make it a bug to feare the diuell withall.

The first Catholique Church, in their exercise of Re­ligion, did vse as few Ceremonies as might bee: for they knew that our sauiour Christ had broken downe that mi­dle walle or particion, which was the lawe of Ceremonies contayned in the lawe written, and had (through the flesh) bin the occasion that discord, whereby the nations of the worlde were so seuered from the people of Israell that they could neuer ioyne with them in one religion, till our sauiour Christ had made it voyde, and made of both the peoples but one new man, making peace, that he might reconcile both in one body. And Ephe. 2. Ephe. 2. But your Romish Catholique Church, hath reedified a new middle walle or particion, of a law of Ceremonies, not contayned in the law written, but diuised by men. And that particion they doo still maintaine and vphold, enforcing all men that will beare the name of Christ and bée called Christians to allow of and to vse those Ceremonies: and all such as doo refuse those Ceremonies, they doo excommunicate and de­liuer to the secular powre to bée consumed to ashes with fire, or otherwise to bée tormented, onely bicause they re­fuse to vse those Ceremonies.

To bée briefe, the first Catholique church did acknow­ledge none to bée her vniuersall head, but Christ I [...]sus one­ly, [Page] and shée submitted her selfe to bee gouerned in matters of faith, by his spirite, which spirite did in déede gouerne hir in the vnderstanding of the scriptures, which are the rule of Christian Religion. And in ciuill gouernement, shee sub­mitted herselfe to Princes, and other Potentats: acknow­ledging that God hath giuen vnto them the power of the sword, and hath made them his reuengers vpon earth, cō ­maunding them to vse that power in defending innocents, and in punishing of such as doo transgresse his lawes. But your Romish Catholique church must haue a Pope to bee hir vniuersall head, vnder the name of Christes vicar gene­rall, and hee must haue absolute power vpon earth, diriued from the Apostle Peter, that neuer tooke vpon him selfe a­ny such power, but willed all Christians to submit them­selues to all estates of men, euen for the Lord Iesus sake. Yea, hee willed them to honour all men, to loue brotherly fellowship, to feare God, and to honour the king. 1. Peter. 2. 1. Peter, 2. But your Pope must haue power ouer all men, euen ouer Princes, to whom Peter submitted him selfe, and willed al christians to doo the like. Yea, hée must haue power to de­pose all such Princes as will not bow to him, and bee his Executioners, in executing the paines of death vpon all such as it pleaseth him to take for Heretikes. Such Prin­ces dooth your Pope take vpon him to depose, & to depriue them of all princely dignitie, & to set vp in their place, such as will submit them selues vnto him, & become his sworne vassalles. And that he may y ^e more easily bring these things to passe: hée absolueth all the subiects of such Princes from their dutifull oth of obedience, which they haue dutifully taken to those their leage and naturall Princes. Yea, & (as late and daily practises doo teach) they spare not to promise the kingdome of God to such subiects as will most vnduti­fully, & most vnnaturally murder, not onely their naturall countrimen, but also their naturall Princes.

By these differences, it apreareth how great the difference is betwixt the first Romish church (which was in déede Catholique) and yours, which you call catho­lique, [Page 20] but is in déede Cacolike.

But now you conclude, that if the learned Protestant can prooue, that the priuate conuenticles & congregations of the Protestants, were the first bringers foorth of the sa­cred Bible and written woord of God, the chiefe preseruers and defenders of the same, in all times and ages, from all Iewes, Gentiles, Heretikes and schismatiks: then you wil reuolt, and recant as you haue saide before.

To this I say (on the behalfe of the learned Protestant) that neither the Catholique church, nor any other congre­gations, haue bin the first bringers foorth of the sacred Bi­ble, &c. For those bookes which are called the Bible, were brought foorth and written, before our sauiour Christ sayd thus to the Iewes. Scrutamini scripturas, &c. Ioh. 5. Ioh. 5. Serch the scriptures, &c. And as for the preseruing and defending of them, from Iewes, Gentiles, &c. I say that it hath not bin the worke of man but of God him selfe, who is the on­ly Author of the same. Apocal. 6. In the sixt chapter of saint Iohns Reuelations, it is written, that when the third seale of that booke which was sealed with seuen seales was opened: there was a voyce which came from the midst of the foure beasts, which saide to him that sate vpon the blacke horse, & had a balaunce in his hand. Wine and oyle, see thou doo not hurt. In the iudgment of all learned interpreters, wine and oyle doo in that place signifie the scriptures which God would not suffer to bee hurt by any mans interpretation: no not in the time of most déepe Ignorance. The Iewes could neuer corrupt the text of the Canonicall scriptures: although they lacked no good will to haue corrupted them. Neither could your Popish catholiques at any time cor­rupt those scripcures: for God hath reserued a Remnant of the Iewes, with whom those scriptures are (and al­waies haue bin) had in such estimation, and reuerence, that they would neuer leaue them to any that would corrupt them, and this hath God wrought by them, vsing them as his instruments therein. In like manner, the Grecians [Page] haue bin his instruments, in kéeping the Gréeke text, both of the olde and newe testament, from all manner of Cor­ruption, in all partes thereof that doo concerne any parte of the substance of our Religion: so that though your Po­pish Catholiques would (as no doubt they are willing e­nough) yet they can not corrupt either the Hebrew or Gréeke text.

Thus (if you will) you may sée (maister Offerer) that God alone, by such meanes as hée hath, dooth, and will vse, hath bin the bringer foorth of the sacred Bible, and other holy scriptures: for the holy men of God did speake, as the holy spirite of God did mooue them to speake. 2. Pet. 1. 2. Peter, 1. And it is hée that hath vsed his good meanes, both in discerning of the holy writings from the prophane: and also in preser­uing and defending of them, from all maner corruption. Wherefore, if you minde to bée as good as your woord: you must reuolt, and recant.

The third Offer.

The Offerer.

3 Third. Shew mee good reason, why yee Protestants doo belieue our Catholique Church, enforming and tel­ling you, this to bee the woord of God written, the true Bible and sacred scriptures, and doo refuse to credit hir, in the true sense and vnderstanding of the same Scripture: shee being vndoubtedly led with the spirite of God in them both. For if the Catholique Church had the spirit of God, in discerning and iudging the true Scriptures of God, from the rest, not Scriptures: why should not wee belieue that same Catholique church gouerned and led by the same spyrite, in giuing the true sense, meaning and vnderstanding of the Scriptures. When yee shalbe able to render a sufficient reason of the one, and not of the other: I shall then yeelde and recant, and not before.

Crowley.

There is no reason, why wée should shewe you good reason why wée doo that thing, which none of vs either haue done, doo, or minde to doo. In beliuing that the Bible and scriptures that wee haue, is the true Bible and scrip­ture: wée doo as the people of Sichar did. Iohn the fourth chapter. They said to the woman that told them of Iesus Iam non propter tuam orationem credimus, &c. Iohn. 4. Now doo wée belieue, not bicause of the tale that thou hast told vs: for wee our selues haue heard, and doo know, that this is very Christ, the sauiour of the world. Euen so, wee confesse that when wee were amongst you, wée heard you talke of a Bible, & scriptures, & wée were desirous to sée them: but you kept them from vs, by all the meanes that you coulde deuise, but at the last (by Gods mercifull prouidence) wée gate a sight of them, and had them translated into such lan­guages as wee our selues doo vnderstand. But this was full sore against your willes (as by Hystories it dooth ap­peere.) Wee haue therefore no cause to thanke you for them, but wée doo giue most heartie & continuall thanks to our heauenly father, that hath prouided them for vs, and hath giuen the vse of them to vs. Yea, and finding in the first chapter of S. Iames Epistle, Iacob. 1. that if any man lack wis­dome, hee must aske it of God, who giueth to all men indif­ferently, and dooth not vpbrayde any man with his giftes: wée haue, and doo still begge of God, his holy Spirite to di­rect vs, both in the discerning of the Bookes of the Scrip­tures, and in the finding out of the true sense of the same. And wee doo finde the saying of our Sauiour Christ, writ­ten by Saint Luke (chapter 11.) very true. Luc, 11. Si vos cum sitis mali, nostis, &c. If you being euill, doo know how to giue good giftes to your children: how much more shall your heauenly Father giue the holy Spirite to them that craue it of him: wee haue craued that holy spirite, and doo still craue it of our heauenly Father. Wee haue recey­ued it, and doo still receiue it in some measure. Wée are thereby made able to iudge the spirits, and according to the [Page] counsell of S. Iohns first Epistle, 1, Iohn, 4. and fourth chapter, Wée belieue not euery spirite: but wée doo trie the spirites. And finding that the holy spirite of God did mooue them that first wrote the bookes of the Bible, to write as they did write: therefore wée doo thankfully receiue those bookes as holy scripture, and doo reuerendly vse them, as a Lanterne to our feete, and a light vnto our pathes.

After this maner did the Catholique men that haue li­ued before vs, endeuor to know the canonicall Scriptures, from such as are pro haue. And as S. Augustine writeth vpon the last Psalme. August, in Psalm. 150. Tom, 5. Tom. 8. Sunt etiam qui vniuersas om­nino scripturas canonicas, vnum librum vocent: quod valde mi­rabili & diuina vnitate concordent. There bée some men al­so (saith S. Augustine) that doo name all the canonicall scriptures but one booke: bicause they doo agree, in a very merueilous and heauenly vnity. S. Augustine in his se­cond booke of christian Doctrine, August. de doct. Christ. lib. 2. Ca. 5. writeth thus, Cap. 8. To­tus autem canon scripturarum, in quo istam considerationem ver­sandam dicimus, his libris continetur. In déede the whole ca­non of the Scriptures, wherein wee doo affirme this consi­deration is to bee vsed, is conteined in these bookes. And then hée maketh rehersall of those 44. bookes which are contained in that booke, which both you and wée doo call the holy Bible, concluding thus. His quadraginta quatuor libris, veteris testamenti terminatur authoritas. In these foure and forty bookes, is the authority of the olde testament ended. Then hée maketh rehersall of the bookes called the New testament, which are in number, 27. and they are the same that wee haue in our bookes called the New testaments, both in gréeke & in latine. Of al these bookes togither, which are in number. 71. S. Austen writeth thus. In his omnibus libris, timentes Deum, & pietate mansueti: quaerunt volūtatem Dei. In all these bookes, they that feare God, & are by god­lines made modest, doo séeke for the will & pleasure of God. And in the beginning of this 8. chap. of this second booke of christian Doctrine, S. Austen dooth instruct euery christian after this maner. Erit igitur diuinarum scripturarum soler­tissimus [Page 22] indagator, qui primo totas legerit, notas (que) habuerit, & si non dum intellectu, iam tamen lectione, duntaxat eas quae appel­lantur canonicae. He therefore shalbe the wisest searcher of the holy scriptures, which will first read them through, and will haue a perfect knowledge of them, although not in vn­derstanding, as yet, but yet already in reading, those scrip­tures onely, which are called Canonicall. And going for­ward in this instruction hée saith thus: Jn Canonicis autem scripturis, Ecclesiarum catholicarum quam plurimum authori­tatem sequatur: inter quas sane illae sunt, quae Apostolicas sedes habere, & Epistolas accipere meruerunt. Let him, as much as may bée, follow the authority of y ^e Catholike churches, in y ^e canonicall scriptures: amōgst which churches, vndoubtedly those churches are, which haue deserued to haue Apostolical seates, & to receiue Epistles. By these woords of S. Au­gustine, it appeareth what was ment in S. Augustins time by these words, the Catholique church, & the canicall scrip­tures. The scriptures were called canonicall, that doo con­taine the rule of faith & of maners. And the churches were planted by the preaching of y ^e doctrine, amongst which those were accounted for y ^e chiefe that had bin planted by y ^e Apo­stles them selues, & had, had some one of y ^e Apostles resiant amongst them for a time, and therefore y ^e places were cal­led Apostolicall seates. And these were the congregations that y ^e Apostle Paule did direct his Epistles vnto. And heere I doo (by the way) note, that as Rome was Sedes Apostoli­cae, an Apostolike seate: so was Corinth, Galatia, Ephessus, Colossa, Philippos, & Thessalonica. Wherefore these later were of like authority with y ^e first. S. Austen therefore ad­deth further, and saith thus. Tenebit igitur hunc modum in scripturis canonicis: vt eas quae ab omnibus accipiuntur Ecclesijs catholicis, praeponat eis quas quaedā non accipiunt. Let him ther­fore (that is a searcher of y ^e scriptures) kéepe this meesure in the canonicall Scriptures: that hee prefer those scriptures that be receiued of al Catholike churches, before those scrip­tures which certaine Catholike churches doo not receiue.

By all these words of S. Austen, written in the 8. chap. [Page] of his second booke De christiana doctrina: it appeareth ma­nifestly, that y ^e church of Rome, although it were then Ca­tholique, & accounted so to be: yet it was not (as now you doo account it to be) the onely Catholique church of Christ. For the other Churches which had bin Apostolike seates, & had receiued Epistles: were Catholique, as well as y ^e church of Rome was: yea, and that all those churches were but parti­culer churches, and none of them vniuersall, but members of that vniuersall Church, which consisteth of all the parti­culer churches that are, haue bin, or shalbe vpon earth.

Yea, and it appeareth, that some of those Catholique churches did not receiue (as canonicall) all those bookes y ^t are contained in the Bible: although they did in some sorte account them canonicall, as containing rules necessary for maners, though not for faith.

In Tom. 4. Tom. 4. of S. Hieroms works, it appeareth, y ^e Ruf­finus (a learned Priest, and such a one as S. Hierome liked well of, liuing about 400. yéeres after, Christes ascention) did not alow for canonicall, mo bookes then these. In y ^e olde testament (saith hée) the fiue bookes of Moses, that is Gene­sis, Exodus, Leuiticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomium. Af­ter these Iesus Naue, of the Iudges, togither with Ruth. After these, foure bookes of the raignes of kings, which the Hebrews doo account but two. Paralipomenon, which is called the booke of dayes, and two of Esdras, which they doo receaue each by it selfe: and the booke of Hester. And of the Prophets, Esaie, Ieremie, Ezechiell, Daniell: bisides these, one booke of the xii. Prophets: Iob also, and the Psalmes of Dauid, are each of them one booke. Salomon also, hath giuen vnto the churches, thrée bookes: the Prouerbs, Eccle­siastes, and Cantica canticorum. In these bookes haue the fa­thers shut vp the number of the bookes of the old testamēt. And of the New testament, there are foure Gospelles of Mathew, Marke, Luke, and Iohn. The Acts of the Apostles, which Luke dooth describe. Fouretéene Epistles of Paule y ^e Apostle: of Peter the Apostle, two: of Iames the brother of y ^e Lord, & an Apostle, one Epistle: of Iudas one: of Iohn, thrée: [Page 23] and the Apocalyps of Iohn. These bée the volumes which the fathers haue shut vp within the canon, & whereof y ^e fa­ther would that the assertions of our faith, should consist.

Notwithstanding, it is néedefull to bée knowne, y ^t there be other bookes also, which are not canonicall, but our aun­cestors haue called them Ecclesiastical. That is to say, wis­dome, which is said to bée Salomons. And another Wis­dome, which is said to bée of the sonne of Sirach: which is by the Latinists, named by the same generall name Eccle­siasticus. By which name, not the author of y ^e booke, but the qualitie of the scripture is named. And of y ^e same Order is the booke of Tobias, & Iudith, and the bookes of Machabies. Thus far Ruffinus, in his creede or confession of beliefe, set foorth by saint Hierome.

And not many liues after this, hée writeth thus. These volumes haue the fathers deliuered vnto vs, which (as I haue said) it hath séemed to mée, méete to note out: for y ^e in­struction of such as doo take vpon them the first rudimēts of the church & of faith: that they may know out of what foun­taines, the cups of the woord of God must bée drawne.

Now (M. Offerer) I pray you confer these words of Ruf­finus, with that decrée that was made by your fathers of y ^e Tridentine councel, in their 4. Session, wherein they allow for canonicall, all those bookes, that haue bin & are cōtained in that booke which is cōmonly called y ^e Bible. With them the bookes of Tobias, Hester, Iudith, Wisdome, Ecclesiasti­cus, & the two bookes of the Machabies, are of as great au­thoritie as the rest: and they doo denounce accursed all such as doo not, or shall not, receiue for canonicall, all those books and euery part of them, making no diffrence betwixt these and the other which Ruffinus hath said the fathers haue de­liuered vnto vs, as fountaines, out of which the cups of the word of God must be drawn. Let your fathers therfore de­nounce accursed, this Ruffinus and those fathers y ^t he spea­keth of, for they be of one minde with vs. Let them accursse S. Hierome, that hath set foorth this Créede of Ruffinus, as a sound confession of the Christian faith. Let them excōmu­nicate [Page] S. Gregorie, Grego. Morali in 29. lib. Cap. 19. Hiero. in praefacio. prou. that in the 19. of his morall exposition of the 29. Chapter of Iob, dooth confesse, that the first booke of the Machabies is not canonicall. Yea, let them accursse S. Hierome as black as a pot, for that in his preface to the prouerbes of Salomon he saith thus. The church dooth read the bookes of Iudith, Tobie, & the Machabies, for th'edificati­on of the people: but not to confirme the authority of the doctrines of the Church. This Hierome, & such other were the fathers y ^e Ruffinus saith, haue deliuered to vs, the other bookes of the Bible, & not these, to bee fountaines for vs to draw the cups of Gods word out of them. And with these, would wée rather bée accursed, then blessed with your po­pish Catholique fathers, in your Tridentine counsell.

You frame an argument after this maner. If the Ca­tholique church had the true spirite of God, in discerning & iudging the true scriptures of God from the rest, not scrip­tures: why should not we belieue y ^e same Catholike church gouerned & led by the same spirit, in giuing the true sence, meaning, & vnderstanding of the scriptures? To this I an­swere. That the romish Catholique church, which now is, & hath continued for the space almost of a thousand yéeres, is not, neither hath bin led by the true spirit of God, either in discerning or iudging the true scriptures of God from the rest, &c. Nor yet in giuing the true sence, &c: but it hath bin, and is still led by the spirite of Antichrist. And that neuer more apparantly then at the Tridentyne counsell, as by the canons of the same counsell dooth most manifestly appéere, to as many as with indifferent iudgement, can and will reade them.

Thus haue I shewed you sufficient reasons, whereby you might bée mooued to yeelde, and ioyne with vs in reli­gion, and no longer to depend vpon the iudgement of that Antichristian church, which you call Catholique: for that you may sée (if you bee not altogither blinded, that it is not the true spirite of God, that hath and dooth leade your Ca­tholique church, but (in déede) the false spirite of Anti­christ.

The fourth Offer.

Offerer.

Fourth. Let the Protestants make sufficient proofe by 4 auncient writers of the Ecclesiastiall histories, what church it is, that al these fifteene hundreth yeeres past, hath conti­nued through out firme and stedfast, while all other con­uenticles and cōgregations, as well of Arians, as of the Ne­storian,, Maniches, Nouatians, Vigilians, Iouinians, and the rest of Heretikes of all sortes, haue decayed, bin conuinced and ouerthrowne, and that by any other Church, then by the common knowne Catholique church of Christ, and I shall then yeelde and recant, and not before.

Crowley.

It is very true, y ^t the knowne Catholike church hath bin, and still is, as for these fiftéene hundreth yéeres last past; it hath bin, the meane that God hath vsed, in the conuinsing & ouerthrowing of Arians, Nestorians, and the rest of y ^e Here­tikes that you speake of. It is most true also, y ^t the same Ca­tholike church hath all this time, continued firme and sted­fast: but how can you prooue y ^t your popish Catholike church is that knowne Catholike church of Christ, that you speake of? Héerein lieth y ^e difficulty. It is not enough for you to say, y ^t your romish church is the Catholike church: but you must prooue it. Your antiquity, your vniuersality, & your v­nity, with your continuall succession of Bishops, will not serue your turne.

Your antiquity is not so auncient as ours by 4600. yéeres (almost.) For ours began in Adam, & hath continued euer since: & yours began to florish in y ^e daies of Phocas the Em­peror, y ^e murdred Mauricius, & his wife and children, & was the first that gaue y ^e title of vniuersall bishop, to Bonifacius the 3. then bishop of Rome. And this was 600. yéeres after the birth of our sauiour Christ. Your church was in hatch­ing, the later 300. yéeres of the 600. but neuer perfected be­fore Phocas time, Wherefore your antiquity is nothing.

Your vniuersalitie was neuer so large as the Romain Empire, your vnity diuided, into moe sects then euer the [Page] heathen Philosophers were. Your succession of Bishops, is such that no man can iustly prooue y ^t Peter was the first, nor that euer hee was Bishop of Rome. Or if hée were Bishop of Rome, no man can certainely say how longe he was there Bishop, nor who it was that was the next Bi­shop after him. And by the testimony of your owne Hy­storians: some in the succession of your Bishops, were as wicked men as euer liued vpon earth: and one was a wo­man, & an arrant whore. And bisides all this: your Apo­stolike seate of Rome that you bragge so much of, hath bin voyde, for the space of one, yea, two yeeres togither & more. You haue had also, two: yea, three Popes at one time, and much blood hath bin shed about the triall of their titles.

But our vniuersality is (and euer hath bin) as large as the whole world: yea, when in the iudgement of men of the best sorte, our Church seemed to bée cleane rooted out, as in the daies of king Achab it séemed to bée in the kingdome of Israell: yet had God his number knowne vn­to him, although not knowne vnto men. And therefore, when Elias complayned, and said, The children of Israell haue forsaken thy couenant, they haue ouerthrowne thine alter, they haue slaine thy prophets, I alone doo remaine, and they seeke after my life. 3. Reg. 19. 3. Reg. 19. Then did the Lord answere, and saide vnto him, I haue reserued for my selfe 7000. men that haue not bowed their knees to Baall. As then, and there: so at all times and in all places, the Lord hath had, hath still, and still will haue (in despight of all Turkish and Popish enimies) his number, knowne vnto him selfe, & that number is his Catholique & knowne church. And this church hath God made able at all times, to conuince all heresies and Heretikes. And at this day hée dooth, & for euer hereafter hee will, make the same church a­ble to conuince, all turkish & popish Heretikes & Heresies: although not by the sword, yet by the word, as at this day, you (M. Offerer) and all your popish Catholique brethren, may sée, if you haue eyes to sée, & willes to consider of that which you doo and must néedes sée.

Our vnitie also, in the substance of religion, is the same that was taught by the Patriarches, by the Prophets, and by Iesus Christ, and his Apostles: and was by the first Christians that were in Roome, and in the rest of the Cit­ties that then were vnder the dominion of the Romane Emperours, receiued, holden and professed. That is, with one full consent, wée beléeue, hol [...]e and confesse all the Ar­ticles that are conteyned in the three Créedes: namely, the Apostles Créede, the Nicene Creede, and the Créede of A­thanasius. We beléeue as S. Paule hath taught the Ephes. to beléeue: that there is but one Lorde, one faith, one Bap­tisme, one God and Father of all, which is aboue all, Ephe, 4. and in vs all. Ephe. 4.

Our succession of Bishops, is such as the succession of the Prophets was. We make no account of that succession of Bishops in Rome, which you doo bragge so much of (for the Scribes and Pharisies might haue bragged of such a suc­cession as well as you doo, and might haue sayd to our Sa­uiour Christ as you do to vs, where was your Gospel 400. yéeres past?) But we doo make account of that succession wherein God hath in his good times, stirred vp some in the spirite of Elias, to deale in doctrine with men of all sortes: as Elias dyd with Achab, and the Isralities, and as Iohn Baptist dyd with Herode, and with the Iewes in his time. The high Préestes had theyr succession euen from Aaron, as your Popes haue had from Peter: some of them asspiring to that estate by one sinister meane and some by an other, as by the Histories it appeareth. But in the meane while, God stirred vp Prophets but now and then: for the worde of God was precious in the dayes of Elie the high Préest, when the Lord stirred vp Samuel to bee a Prophet. And when Iohn Baptist was stirred vp: there had béene no Pro­phet amongst the Iewes, for the space of many yéeres to­gether. This was the execution of Gods iust iudgement vpon the Iewes, because they had not regarded those Pro­phets which he had styrred vp amongst them. In like man­ner, in the time that hath béene since the Incarnation of [Page] our Sauiour Christ, because men had giuen ouer them­selues to beleeue lies, & did not regard the trueth. God tooke from them such as had laboured to leade them in the waie of trueth, and gaue them ouer to the efficacie of error. Yea béeing wilfully blinde: hee gaue them blinde guides that might leade them the right way into the ditch of distructi­on.

Thus you may sée, if you haue a lust to behold the truth: that not your new found Popish Catholique Church, but our most auncient Christian Catholique Church, is that Church that hath continued thoroughout firme and stedfast whiles all other couenticles and congregations aswell of Arians. &c, as of Mahumetans and Popish Antichristians, and the rest of Heretickes of all sortes, haue decayed and béene conuinced, and ouerthrowne, and that by none other Church, then by the knowne Catholique Church of Christ, builded vpon the rocke Christ, which Peter confessed. Math. 16. Math. 16. And vpon none other foundation. Wherefore I doo re­quire you now to yéelde and recant according to your pro­mise.

The fifte Offer.

Offerer.

Fifte, if it may sufficiently be prooued, that any other Church then the common knowne Catholique Church of Christ, hath instituted and ordayned, all goodly ceremo­nies, and solemne obseruations in the same daily practised and vsed, as the festiuall daies of Christmas, Candelmas, Easter, Whitsontyde, the feastes of the Apostles and holy Euangelistes, Saint Michael the Archangell, and of all hal­lowes and blessed Saintes, the obseruation of the holy fast in lent, and Ember dayes, the fast of th'apstoles, and of all the aforefayd fest [...]uall Euens, besides the weekely fast of Fridayes and Saterdayes, and the rest yet obserued and al­lowed on both sides, to the honor and glory of God, then I will recant, and not before.

Crowley.

Vnder the name of goodly ceremonies: you comprehend all manner of ceremonies, good and badde, such as are day­lie practised and vsed in your Church. Your Baptising of Churches or buriall places, of Belles and of Shippes to sayle on the Seas. are goodly ceremonies. Your hallowing of bread, water or salte, of Waxe and Wax candles, bowes beades, garmentes, fire, and Images: are goodly ceremo­nies. Your taking of Ashes, bearing of Palme, displinge with white roddes, créeping to the crosse, sencing and kis­sing of Images, and burning of candles before them: are goodly ceremonies. Your solemne and pompous processi­ons, about your Churches and churchyardes wéekely, and about your parishes yéerely: are goodly obseruations. Your solemne and backanall Feastes that you obserue yerely, in the honour of such Angelles and men, as you thinke to bée in high fauour with God, and able to furder your sutes to him, or of themselues to doo you some pleasure: are goodly obseruations. Your yerely feastes of Lent, Ember, Saints Vigilles, and wéekely Fridayes and Saterdayes: are good­ly obseruations, with many moe, which now I doo not re­member.

But it may be, that some of your sorte will thinke, that I doo vse this Epitheton (Goodly) by a figure in speach, na­med by the Grecians, [...]. And is vsed, when men speake one thing and meane the contrarie.

Surely, such as doo so take my meaning, doo not take it a­misse: for what reason is there to mooue a man, to applie this Epitheton (goodly) in the right sence thereof, to these (& such other) ceremonies and obseruations, wherein there is nothing, that rightly may be called, either good, or goodlye? We are contented therefore, that your Popish Catholique Church, doo take to her selfe, the whole praise and commendation, that the inuention of these goodly ceremonies and obseruations, hath or can deserue. Yea, we would be verie [Page] sorie, that any of your sorte should bee able to make good proofe, that any of our sorte, had instituted or ordayned any of those goodly ceremonies or obseruations, that you e­stéeme so highly of.

As for the feastes of Easter and Whitsontyde, we know that God him selfe dyd first institute them, the one (namely Easter) in the remembraunce of the deliueraunce of the people of Israell out of Egipt: and the other (that is Whit­sontyde, or Pentecost) in the remembraunce of the publi­shing of the Lawe in the mount Sinaie. Whych as they were remembraunces of thinges then past: so they were fi­gures or shadowes of thinges then to come, and now alrea­die fulfilled, in the death and resurrection of our Sauiour Christ, and in the sending of the holy Ghost, vpon the Apo­stles, the fifteth day after the resurrection of our Sauiour Christ. And we are perswaded that these two feastes were obserued euen by the Apostles themselues, in remembe­raunce of our deliuerance which we haue by the death and resurrection of our Sauiour Christ: and of the comming of the holy Ghost, which rested vpon the Apostles, in y ^e forme of firie tongues deuided. Yea, and we doo thinke, that the Saboth or the Lordes day, commonly called the Sonday, was obserued by the Apostles: yea and that shortly after the tyme of the Apostles, the right catholique Christians began to obserue yéerely, certaine dayes in the remembe­raunce of holy men which had suffered for the testimonie of Christ: and some dayes in the remembraunce of those great and inestimable benifits that God hath bestowed vp­on mankinde, in the incarnation, natiuity, Epiphanie, and Ascention of our Sauiour Christ. But there is no cause to mooue vs to thinke, that eyther the Apostles, or the fathers dyd iustitute those feastes, as obseruations necessarie to bée obserued for euer, but as profitable remembraunces wher­by y ^e congregations of Christ might be mooued to be thank­full to God, and encouraged to followe the good examples of those good men, whose remembraunces they dyd solem­nise. And after this manner, and for this purpose, wee al­so [Page 27] doo obserue some of those seastiuall dayes. Not hauing a­ny superstition in the holines of the times, neither beeing perswaded that we doo deserue any thing at Gods hand by the obseruing of the times, or that we should sinne against God, if by a common consent we should abrogate the obser­uation of those times, or by some priuate or vrgent occasion imploy those tymes in our honest and necessarie businesses. For our Sauiour Christ hath tolde vs, that euen the Sa­both (in such causes) is in mans power. Man was no made for the Saboth: but the Saboth was made for man. Marc. 2. Marc. 2.

And as touching fasting, we obserue Lent, the Ember dayes, the Fridayes and Saterdayes in euerie wéeke, and the vigilles of saintes: but not as you doo, superstitiously, but for good policie. We doo not account one meate holyer then another, neither one time better then another: But we abstaine from certaine kindes of meates at certayne tymes, that thereby the common weale of our countrie may be bettered. And would to God, al would obserue that policie more precisely then any of vs dooth. As touching our own persons: we do not thinke our selues to be either y ^e better or the wursse, by taking or leauing of the vse of Gods creatures. Rom, 14, But according to S. Paules rule to the Romans Capit 14. When we take the vse of Gods creatures, wée doo giue thanks vnto him for them: and when we doo leaue the vse of them, we doo thanke hym also. Wee doo knowe that, that fast is the right fast, which is commended by Esay Esay, 58. the Prophet: Chap. 58. and by saint Peter, 1. Peter. 2. 1, Peter, 2. Breake thy breade to the hungrie. That is, giue of the sustinaunce of thine owne body, to hym that hath no sustinaunce to féed his body withall. And abstaine (sayth Saint Peter) from fleshly lustes that fight against the soule.

Thus if you wyll you may sée, that the right knowne Catholique Church hath instituted and ordayned all such ceremonies and solemne obseruations, as may rightly bée called goodly: and that your Popishe Catholique Church hath corrupted many of them by superstition and idolatrie and hath also deuised many other such as may by the figure [Page] [...], bee called goodly ceremonies and solemne obserua­tions. Wherefore I require you to performe your promise that you make, when you say. Then I wyll recant, and not before.

The sixt Offer.

Offerer.

Syxt. Let the Protestantes shewe what Church from Christ his tyme hetherto, and for the whole space of these fifteene hundred yeeres past, hath exercised discipline and due correction vpon offenders of all degrees, and for that purpose, hath not only prouided and made, but continu­allie executed, lawes, Canons and decrees ecclesiasticall, by suspension, excommunication, degradation, and such o­ther lyke. Let them prooue thys discipline to haue procee­ded of the Protestantes congregations, or to haue conty­nued from time to time, in any other Church, then in the common knowen Catholique Church of Christ: And I wyll then recant, and not before.

Crowley.

Here is much a doo and little helpe. The learned pro­testant must prooue that thing, that no Protestant hath, dooth, or wyll at any time affirme: for otherwise the Offe­rer wyll in no wise yéelde to recant. We doo knowe, and haue at all times confessed, that Christes knowen Catho­lique Church onely hath the keyes of opening and shut­ting, loosing and binding: and that none other congrega­tion but that, can eyther admit any to be of the fellewship of Christians, or by excommunication cut of any man from that body of Christ, but onely that knowen Catholique church of Christ, which is builed vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Iesus Christ being the head cor­nerstone. You doo therefore offer vs great iniurie, in that you require vs to prooue that which we dyd neuer affirme.

But I sée what stone it is that the Offerer dooth so often stumble at. He is perswaded that there can be no knowen Catholique Church of Christ: but that Romishe Church (whereof he himselfe is a member) which is now manifestly knowen to be an Antichristian congregation, and not the knowen Catholique Church of Christ, as the Offerer and hys fellowes, would beare vs in hand that it is.

The knowen Catholique Church of Christ, hath al­wayes vsed to execute ecclesiasticall censures vpon such as haue béene offensiue in lyfe and manners, and vpon such as haue béene disturbers of the common peace of the Church: and so doo we at this day, without respect of any mans per­son, so farre foorth as in dutifull obedience to such as God hath made our gouernour we may. But to excommunicate and depose Princes we haue not learned of S. Paule, nor of the Fathers that lyued in the first sixe hundered yéeres after the ascention of our Sauiour Christ.

Your bragge of 1500. yéeres continuance in the execu­ting of your discipline, must bee cut shorter by 600. yéeres for your Catholique Antichristian Church hath not flory­shed in her pride, full one thousand yéeres as yet, neither haue you executed your tirannous discipline in such sorte as you would séeme to haue doone: in that tyme of your ti­rannous raigne. But whensoeuer you tooke in hand to exe­cute any discipline: you had (and so yée haue still) a speciall regarde to your owne ease and commoditie, and to the ad­uanceing and vpholding of your owne honour and dignity. Your owne Histories are full of the reportes, of your cor­rupt and partiall dealinges in that behalfe.

It is God himselfe that hath prescribed an order of discipline, and hath in all tymes and ages committed the execution thereof to hys Church, which hath had conti­naunce euen from the beginning of the world. This disci­pline was first engrauen in the hartes of men, and after that, in tables of stone, and last of all in bookes, that by those outwarde meanes, the discipline grauen in the hart might be daily refreshed: but euen the best men [Page] that haue béene in Authority in the Church, and haue had the execution of thys discipline, haue béene to slacke in that he halfe, as by histories it appeareth. No maruaile therfore, though to great slacknes in the execution of this discipline be found in that Church which you and your sorte doo ac­count to be Schismaticall, but is in déede Catholique, and that knowen Catholique Church from which your Ante­christian Church is fallen.

That discipline that you make so great a reckoning of, is your cannon lawe (I am sure) which your Popes haue patched together since they gate the vpper hand, and enfor­ced Princes to doo them seruice and to kysse their féete. That discipline you execute, with Precipimus, & firmiter in­iungendo mandamus. Wee charge you (say you) and with firme iniūction we commaund you. And what is it that you doo thus commaund to be doone? That such a man, or such a woman, as hath not appeared in your courte, or hath refu­sed to pay such fées as your officers requyre, or that hath failed in dooing some acte that by that lawe they are bound to doo: be denounced excommunicated, sub pena iuris. Vnder payne of hauing the penalty of the Lawe executed vppon that minister that wyll not denounce such a one excommu­nicated.

But if a whore or a whoremonger, a drunkarde or a blasphemer of God, an Vsurer or a simmoniacke, or any o­ther wicked person; shalbe conuented before your ecclesiasticall iudge: if hys pursse be waightie, and his hande readie to reache out money in paying double fées, and in giuing to such vses as you cal Godly, so that you may haue the dispo­sing therof: then this party must be receiued as a communi­cant amongest Christians, although it doo appeare many­festly that there is neyther amendment of lyfe▪ nor hope of repentaunce shewed any way. And would God that our execution of discipline, were more frée from this corrupti­on then it is. But that wyll not be, so long as so many of your minde may be suffered to bée in offyce vnder them that haue the execution of discipline.

I thinke you doo now sée, that the right dscipline, hath not béene prouided and made by men, neither of your sorte, nor of ours: but by God himselfe. And that there hath béen, and is still, as great, (yea greater) corruption, vsed in the executing of discipline, amongst you, as is or hath béene a­mongst vs. Yea and that your Church, (which is Antichri­stian) hath not had the continuance of 1500. yéeres, in that glory that now it dooth claime vnto it selfe. Wherfore I doo require you now to recant (according to promise) although you would not before.

The seauenth Offer.

Offerer.

Seauenth, Let me knowe of the Protestantes, what Church hath brought forth for the space of these fifteene hundered yeeres past, as Children begotten of her owne wombe, so many thousandes of blessed Martyrs, of stoute and bolde confessers, of pure and innocent virgins, and of other holy Saintes of all sortes, and so acknowledged by eyther party. And if it shal in fine fall out, that any one of them was of the Protestantes congregation, fayth or be­leefe, whiles they liued heere, and not of the common knowen fayth and religion of the Catholique Church of Christ, or that they were approoued and canonized for Saintes, when they were dead, by the Protestantes congre­gation, & not onely by the Catholique Church of Christ, I shall then submit, and recant, and not before.

Crowley.

It séemeth that M. Offerer hath conceiued a wrong o­pinion of vs Protestantes. He séemeth to be perswaded that none of vs haue seene the Histories of the Church. Other­wise he had béene too too madde to make this large Offer. For any Protestant that hath reade any thing of the Eccle­siasticall Histories, may easily enforce him, eyther to flie [Page] from his promisse, or else to submitte himselfe and recant. If any one (sayth hée) amongst the thousandes of the blessed Martyrs, &c. Shal be found to haue béene of the Protestan­tes fayth and religion, &c. Then he wyll submit hymselfe and recant.

I am sure of it, that amongst the thousands that suffered Martirdome within the space of y ^e first six hundereth yeres after Christs ascention, he can not name one, that was not whiles he liued, of the same faith & religion y ^t we be of now. Al we do beleue al y ^e articles of y ^e common tréed, & so did they we do beléeue, y ^t as there is but one God, so there is but one mediatour betwixt God & man, and y ^t the same is the man Christ Iesus: & euen so did they, 1. Ti. 2: 1. Timot. 2. we beléeue y ^t Christ Iesus hath taken vpon him selfe all our infirmities, & that the correction that was due to our sins is fallen vpon him, and y ^t by those wounds that he suffered we are made whole: and so did they. Es, 53. Esay, 53. We beléeue that Christ Iesus is that Lambe of God that hath taken aw [...]y the sins of the world: and so did they Ioh. 1. 1. Iohn, 1. We beléeue, that he is that son of the blessed virgin Mary, whom the Angel named before he was borne, saying to Ioseph (his supposed father) thou shalt call, his name Iesus, for he shall saue his people from their sins Mat, 1: Math. 1. and so did they. We doo beléeue y ^t it is he that is our high Préest, & that he is entred into the holiest place of the tabernacle (not made with handes) and hath made there a sacrifice, not of straying blood (as of a Calfe or of a Goate) but of his own heart blood, & hath thereby obtained vs eter­nall redemption: Hebr, 9, Heb. 9. and euen so dyd they. We doo be­léeue, y ^t Christ Iesus hath by that one oblation, made of him selfe once offered, made perfect, as many as be made holy (y ^t is all the elected people of God) and that he hath thereby so satisfied to God for the sins of all such, y ^t they shall neuer be charged w ^t their sins any more: and that where there is re­mission of sins, theris no more sacrifice to be offered for sin, Heb. 10. Hebr, 10. & euen so did they. We know and confesse, that our duty is to be as careful as possibly we may, to liue with our sin, and that when by infirmity of our nature we do sin [Page 30] we haue an aduocate w ^t God y ^e father, which is Iesus Christ the righteous, and y ^t he is the propitiation for our sins. 1, Io, 2: 1, Iohn, 2. and euen so did they. To be bréefe: we differ not from thē, neither did they differ from vs, in any one point of the sub­stance of faith.

And where as the Offerer saith y ^t those holy Martirs, &c. were not of our religion: I am sure that we doo hold & pro­fesse that religion, Iacob. 1. that S. Iames dooth call pure & vndefiled before God the father: which is to visite the fatherlesse and widdowe in their tribulation, & for a man to kéepe himself vnspotted of this world. And I thinke that M. Offerer will not deny that the holy martirs & the rest that he speketh of, did hold & professe the same religion. And how can he then say, that they were not of the Protestantes religion

If the Offerer will say that those Martirs, &c. did obserue and kéepe y ^e religion, and did performe in déede that which they did professe, so y ^t they were in déede vnspotted of thys world, (which none of vs dooth,) then I must say, that they all did say, as all we doo say, as y ^e Prophet Dauid hath written Psa. 143. Psa, 143 Esay, 64, Lord enter not into iudgement w ^t thy seruant for no flesh is righteous in thy sight. And as the Prophet E­say hath written, Cha. 64. Al our righteousnesses, 1, Iohn, 1, are euen like vnto a filthy cloath. And as y ^e Apostle Iohn hath wryt­ten. 1. Epist, 1. If wée shall say that we haue no sinne, wée shall desceiue our selfe, and there is no trueth in vs.

And where as the Offerer hath termed his virgins pure and innocent, I thinke he wold haue sayd immaculate, (for that is an Epithiton, méeter for a virgin then innocent is) I am sure that none of them was either pure or innocent of them selfe, neither did they account them selfe so to be: but being washed in the fountaine of water, by the worde of lyfe, they were members of that glorious Church, that in Christ is purged and made so cleane, that in it is neyther spot nor wrincle or any such thing, but in him, al those Martyrs, confessours & virgins, and we also that doo beléeue as they dyd, are holy and vnblameable, & haue in vs no spot of sin. Ep, 5. Ephe, 5. For Christ Iesus hath washed vs in y ^e sope of his owne [Page] hart blood, and made vs as white as the most white woole, yea and as shining white as the snowe. We therfore, with the Martirs, confessors and virgins that you speake of: are the virgins that doo and for euer shall accompanie the Lambe Christ vpon the Mount Sion, Apo, 14. Apoc, 14.

As for your approouing and cannonizing of these Martirs &c. Whereby you haue made them saintes after they were departed out of this lyfe: it may well be compared to the building and garnishing of the Tombes of the Prophets, by the Scribes and Phariseis Math, 23. Math. 23. For although you pretende to haue a reuerend care for the kéeping of the worthy and valiant acts of those Martirs in remembrance: yet you doo daily murder as many of that sorte of men, as God wyll suffer you to haue power ouer, and so you shew your selues to be the children of those bloody Tyrants that mur­dered those Martyrs that you speake of.

I thinke you can not but see now that all the thousandes of Martyrs, confessors and virgins, that were brought forth in the first sixe hundreth yéeres next after the ascention of our Sauiour Christ: were the children of that Mother (the holy Catholique Church of Christ) that hath brought foorth and nourished vp vs, whome you call Schismatickes and Heretickes.

But now I pray you (good M. Offerer) let mee learne of you, the name of one Martir, that your mother, (the Popish Catholique Church) hath brought forth since the dayes of Boniface the thyrd, which was the time wherein your Apo­stacie beganne. I thinke you can not name me one Martyr that hath béene brought foorth by that mother of yours, in all that time, which is (almost) the space of a thousande yéeres. Not one (I am sure) of all your Popes that haue suc­céeded that Bonifacius hath béene made a Martyr: excepte you account for martirdome, the poisoning of some of them which hath béene doone by some such as themselues, that haue hasted to be in theyr place. And the rest of the Chil­dren of that mother, haue béene whelpes of the same heare, namely blood thirstie bloodhoundes, and bloody Butthers [Page 31] Curres.

Yea it appeareth manifestly, that the whole state of your Popish Catholique Church, hath béene and still is, none o­ther thing, but that which was figured by that two horned Beast that rose out of the earth, of whom mencion is made in the 13. Chap of the Reuelations. So that, Apoc, 13 this mother of yours neither hath nor dooth, bring foorth Martirs: but hath & dooth make Martyrs, whom the holy Catholique Church of Christ (our mother) hath and dooth daily bring foorth and nourishe vp. For whosoeuer in all this time hath refused to worship the image of the Beast (which is the estate of the Romish Papacie) hath dyed for it (if he were caught) or else béene enforced to abiure: and so goeth it with such at this day, and so is it lyke to continue so long as your Ante­christian mother shalbe able to doo any thing. The thou­sandes which that mother of your hath (in this tyme of the last thousand yéeres,) murdered, in Italie, in Bohemie, in Germany, in Portinggale, in Spaine, in England, in Scot­land, and in the late massacre in Fraunce: doo all with one voice crie vnder our Alter Christ saying. How long Lord, thou that art holy and true, doost thou not iudge and re­uenge our bloode vpon them that that dwell on the earth? Apoc, 6. Apocal. 6.

If you had not altogether lost your inwarde sight, you might sée, that the crie of these holy Martyrs is hearkened vnto: for sixe of the seauen Angelles, to whom were giuen seauen Vialles sull of the wrath of God, haue already pow­red out theyr Vialles at the commaundement of God, and the seuenth is ready to power out his Viall: and shall shortly power it out into the ayre. And then shal that great voice procéede out from the temple of Heauen, euen from the throne, saying. Factum est. It is finished. Apoc, 16. Apoc, 16, This voyce shalbe terrible to your Popish Catholique mother, and to all you (her children.) But most comfortable to the true Catholique Church of Christ, our mother, and to all vs, her children. I say therefore vnto you, as Christ Iesus sayd to the Angell of the Church of Laodicea. Apoc, 3. an­noynt [Page] thine eyes with eye salue that thou maiest sée, &c.

Apoc, 3,Thus I hope I haue made it plaine enough, to as many as will sée, that the Church whereof all right Protestantes are members, hath brought foorth all those thousandes of Martirs that you speake of, when you say, that not one of them was of our congregation, fayth or beléefe whiles they liued in this transitorie estate. And that she hath brought foorth and nourished vp thousands moe in the tyme of thes [...] latter 1000. yéeres: which your mother the Popish Catholi­que Church hath murdered and made Martirs. Wherefore submit your selfe now and recant, although you would not before.

The eight Offer.

Offerer.

Eight. Wheras the Apostle S. Paule testifieth, that Christ gaue vnto his church, some Apostles, some Prophets, some Euangelists, some Pastors and Doctors, ad consummationem sanctorum in opus ministerij: and so to continue to the edifi­ing of the bodie the Catholique Church, vntill his com­ming againe. Now if the Protestants shalbe able to prooue by ecclesiastical histories of all ages, the continuance & vse of the sayd functions and degrees in theyr congregations, and that by some orderly succession and plaine account made from Christ his tyme hetherto, they haue neuer lac­ked the sayd appointed officers, or that any other Church of Christ, hath had at all times, and the continuance of the same: I shall then recant and relent and not before.

Crowley.

Ephe, 4,It is a strang matter, to sée how impudently this Offerer dare set downe the wordes of the Apostle Paule in the 4. Chapter of his Epistle to y ^e Eph. as testifying that for an in fallible trueth, which is as false as God himselfe is true. That is: that our Sauiour Christ hath appointed that hys [Page 32] Church shall haue Apostles, Prophets, Euangelists, Pas­tors, and Doctors, continually tyll his comming againe, and that in a continuall and orderly succession. Amongest the learned interpreters, there is not one, that hath noted anie such meaning in those wordes of the Apostle.

It is verie true, that our Sauiour Christ made choyse of such men as he had made méete to be his messengers, and sent them foorth, first into those Citties that belonged to the Kingdome of Israel: and after his resurrection he sent them into al the world, commaunding them to teach all nations, Baptising the beléeuers, in the name of the father, of the sonne, and of the holie Ghost. And by the ministerie of those and a fewe others, whome he dyd afterward stirre vp and ioyne in commission with those: hée planted hys Church in all quarters of the world.

Those were the Apostles, of whome Saint Paule wrote to the Ephesian, 4. saying: Hée gaue some Apostles. These contynued in executing theyr offyce fathfully, and painefullie, tyll they had runne out the rase of theyr naturall lyfe. Which course God dyd not suffer to bée en­ded béefore the sounde of them had béene hearde all the world ouer, as appeareth by the wordes of Saynt Paule. Rom, 10, Rom, 10,

When these had executed theyr office, and were taken out of this lyfe: it was not néedefull that other should bée sent from God to doo that worke which these men had alreadie finished, and so it was altogeather vnnecessa­rie, that there should bée an orderly succession of Apo­stles in the Church. But when God shall sée cause, hee may at hys pleasure, stirre vp and sende foorth such messen­gers as hée shall make méete to doo hys message. And such hée hath styrred vp sence the tyme of those fyrst Apostles: and such hee dooth and wyll styr vp & send foorth at his [...]lea­sure, and such may bée called Apostles of Christ, béecause they be styrred vp by hys spirit, and are sent of hym. But this can not bée called a continuall and orderly succession.

Such Apostles our Church did not lacke in y ^e time of the [Page] first, 600, yéeres next after the ascention of our Sauiour Christ: as by your owne histories it dooth most plainely ap­peare. And euer since you fell from vs, we haue had, (and haue styll) as many as our good God knoweth to be neede­ful for vs: as by the regesters kept in your consistories may bée séene, for therein are written the horrible sentenses of excommunication that you haue pronounced against them, because they would not worship the image of the Beaste, nor take hys marcke in theyr handes nor forehead.

Our Sauiour Christ gaue vnto our Church, Prophets also: such as he made able to foretell of thinges to come: as Agabus, Ac. 11. Acts, 11. y ^e daughters of Phillip y ^e Euangelist. Act. 21, Act, 21. S. Paule himselfe. Act, 20, 1. Timoth, 4, 2, 3. Act, 20. 1. Timot. 4. 2, Timo, 3. And Iohn that wrote the Reuelations, with many moe. Yea when hys pleasure is, he can and dooth foreshewe vnto men things to come, by the ministerie of such as it pleaseth him to fore­shewe those thinges vnto. Yea and he hath alwayes furny­shed, and dooth styll furnish our Church, with such Pro­phets as S, Paule writeth of, 1. Cor. 14. to whom hee giueth the gifte of interpretation so that they are able to make plaine the darke speaches that are some times vsed by the Prophets that speak of things to come. 1, Cor, 14, Of these Prophets our Church had many in the time of the first sixe hundreth yéeres, that were next after the ascention of our Sauiour: but not so many as since the time of your Apostacie, which was in the dayes of Bonifacius the third, about the ende of that 600. yéeres. They that were in the tyme of the first. 600, yéeres, were persecuted by the dragan, that is by the estate of Roome vnder the tirrannous Emperours. And they that haue béene since, and are now, haue béene, and styll are persecuted by the beast that hath two hornes lyke a Lambe, that is, the estate of Roome vnder the Papacie, Apoc. 13. Apoc, 13

These Prophets of booth sortes, haue béene, and are still, styrred vp by him that is the giuer of all good giftes, at hys ple [...]sure, to worke his wyll in such tymes as he hath fore appoynted: But there hath not béene at any time, any con­tinuall [Page 33] and orderly succession of them, such as you require the Protestants to prooue, neither dooth it help any thing at all for the proofe of true and right Religion, to haue any such continuall and orderly succession: except all the succes­sors, doo hold the same Religion, and doo walke in the same steps, that their first Predecessor held and walked in.

Amongst your Popes, very few or none can bée founde, that haue held the religion of Peter, & walked in his steps. Your Boniface the third (which was the first of your Apo­statat Popes) shewed him selfe to bée of a far other minde then Peter was: otherwise, hee would neuer haue sought for, and with great contention haue obtained that name of vniuersall Bishop, which Gregorie the first refused as a prophane name, and a signe of y ^e fore runner of Antichrist. This would haue bin a lusty lad, if hee might haue conti­nued in the estate of a Pope, many yéeres: but hée was cut of by death, in the ninth moneth after hee was made Pope. The rest that haue succeeded (euen vntill this day) haue in one point walked in the steps of this Bonifacius: for they all haue taken vpon them and kept the title of vniuersall Bishop, and so dooth hee that dooth now enioy that place. And so (by good consequence) it may bee said, that they are all Antichristian,

But to returne to our purpose. That church whereof the Protestants bee members, hath had Apostles as longe time as th'office of an Apostle was necessary for hir. In like maner shee hath had Prophets of both sortes. Euangelists also shee hath had, and hath still, whose office is to water that which the Apostles haue planted. Of this sorte was Timoth. and so was Apollos, and others that were when they were, and in the first 600. yeeres after Christs ascen­tion. And such bee they in these dayes which are able to in­struct, and doo labour to instruct Christians how to leade a christian life, and to bee assured of Saluation, onely by the mediation of Christ Iesus, that promised Seede, through whom, all the nations of the world are promised to be hap­py and blessed.

Pastors and doctors also, our Church hath alwaies had, and now hath: The Popes catholiques neuer had the like. These are they that God hath made able to breake y ^e breade of life, to the flocke of Christ, and to teach & instruct them in all necessary knowledge to saluation. And these (as the others) are made able & stirred vp to worke in y ^e Lords Haruest, by him that (as oft as néede is) sendeth forth labo­rers into his Haruest. Hée is not bound to maintaine a cō ­tinuall & orderly succession, but when it pleaseth him to pu­nish the vnthankfulnes of his people, by taking from them such as hee hath made méete and able to execute these offi­ces amongst them, hee may, and in iustice hée dooth. That so his people may learne to vse such good gifts better, when they shall againe enioy them.

And as for that popish-Catholique church, which your sort doo call the knowne Catholique church: neuer had such Apostles, Prophets, Euangelists, Pastors and Doctors, as S. Paule ment of in his writing to the Ephes. For that Church was not hatched before the dayes of Boniface the third. And therefore that church neither had nor could haue any such Apostles, Prophets, or Euangelists as our church had in the six hundreth yeeres next after the ascention of our sauiour.

I conclude therefore, that neither our Church (which is the right Catholique church) nor yours (which is y ^e right Antichristian church) hath had any such continuall and or­derly succession, as you require the Protestant to prooue by the Ecclesiasticall hystories. I see no cause therefore, why you should not recant and relent, although you haue hither­to refused so to doo.

The ninth Offer.

Offerer.

9 Ninth. Where as the Protestants by the drift of reason and Argument, are forced of the Catholiques, to acknow­ledge and confesse their Church and Congregations to haue lien hidden & vnknowne for the space of one whole [Page 34] thousand yeeres togither, without all the foresaid functi­ons and ministrations of Apostles, Prophets, Euangelists, Pastors and Doctors of their gospell, faith and religion, at the least wise to be openly perceiued & knowne: if there­fore they shall be able for the space of that whole time to prooue by auncient writers of Ecclesiasticall hystories, any other word, gospell or doctrine to be vniuersally & open­ly taught, any other sacraments to be ministred, any other discipline or correction to be practised, any other iudge­ments, decrees, Canons, or lawes to be executed, then those which were daily practised in the common knowen Ca­tholique Church of Christ, I will then recant and not before.

Crowley.

This Offerer would beare vs in hand that wée Pro­testants, are by the drift of reason and argument, enforced to confesse, &c. Hée dooth vs great wrong, in y ^t hée auoutch­eth that wée confesse, that for the space of a thousand yéeres togither, wée had no maner function or ministration, &c. As though wée should confesse that wée had no gospel, no faith, no religion. And yet his owne conscience driueth him to say thus: At the least wise to be openly perceiued & known. Well, then his owne conscience telleth him that wée had those ministrations, and that it was knowne that wée had them, but not openly.

It appéereth that this man vnderstandeth nothing of the mysterie of that woman that the Apostle Iohn saw in his vision. Apoc. 12. Apoc. 12. If these Antichristian Catholiques could content them selues to bée taught by such as God hath stir­red vp & made able to open y ^e meaning of this mystery: they should sée, that the right Catholique church of Christ, hath bin in Wildernesse euer since the Male childe that shee brought foorth, was taken vp into heauen. Yea, & although shee bee clad with the sunne, and hath the Moone vnder hir feete: yet doo not these men so sée hir, that they may discerne [Page] hir from the congregations of the heathen, bicause their sight is such as the sight of Howlets and such other night fowles, that cannot endure the brightnes of the sunne.

Immediately after our sauiour Christ was ascended in­to heauen, the Dragon (that olde serpent, the deuill & Sa­tan) being vanquished by Michael and his Angels, & expel­led out of heauen, and cast downe to the earth, did persecute the woman that had borne a sonne, which is our sauiour Christ, and the woman is his Catholique church. This Church did the Dragon (the diuell) persecute by the mini­strie of the Romaine Emperors: by the space of 294. yéeres vnder Nero, Domitian, T [...]a [...]ant, Seuerus, Commodus, De­cius, and Dioclesian. All this while the Dragon did per­secute the Catholique church, & séeke by all meanes possible to roote it out: but Almighty God had in mercifull proui­dence prouided for his Church, two wings of a great Egle, whereby shée tooke flight into the wildernes, into the place that was prepared for hir; where shée was norished all that time, out of the sight of the serpent.

Yea, the serpent did cast out of his mouth after the wo­man, as it had bin a riuer of water: that shee might haue bin violently borne away of the water. But the earth did help the woman, and opening hir mouth did swallow vp the Riuer that the Dragon had cast out of his mouth, after hir.

If such as bée of the learned sorte amongst them that be of the Romish Catholique church, would with humbled mindes reade this booke of Reuelations, & séeke for the true fence & meaning but of this one vision: vndoubtedly they should finde (and I hope they would confesse) that the true Catholike church of Christ, that was figured by y ^e woman: had not the glory of the world, as the Romish Catholique church hath now, but was in this world obscure, and after a sorte, hid from the presence, of such as the serpent had stir­red vp to persecute hir, which were the mighty Emperors, and other y ^t were of great powre within the Romaine Em­pire. And yet was shée still clad with the sunne, & had the [Page 35] Moone vnder hir féete, &c. That is, shée was still glorious in the sight of God and of all good men. For hir garment was Christ the bright shining light of the world. Vnder hir feete shée had the Moone still, for shée contemned, & trode vnder foote, the vaine pompe & glory of this world, which shineth gloriously in the sight of the blinde worldlings, e­uen as the Moone dooth in the darknes of the night. Yea, and shée had hir head crowned with the twelue starres, the Patriarches which were Fathers to the twelue kinreds of Israell, or those twelue Messengers, or Apostles, which our sauiour Christ had sent foorth, as starres to giue light in the darknes of this world.

Yea, although shee dwelt still in Rome, & in other Ci­ties that belonged to the Romaine Empire: yet shee was as in a wildernes, as hauing nothing, and yet possessing all things, &c. 2. Cor. 6. 2, Cor, [...], So that if this Offerer would but consider this, & conceiue in his minde, the countenance that the Catholique church could beare in this world, during y ^e time of persecution vnder y ^e aboue named Emperors: sure­ly hee would neuer for shame say, that our Church is not the Catholique church, bicause we confesse, that for y ^e space of one thousand yeeres: it was by the two horned beast (that is by the papacie) kept vnder, as that Church (which hee him selfe dooth confesse to bée the right Catholique church of Christ) was by the seuen headed Dragon, which was the Romaine Empire.

If the Catholique church might haue hir Apostles, Pro­phets, Euangelists, Pastors, and Doctors (as vndoubtedly shee had) in the time of the first bloody persecutions, which continued for the space of 294. yeeres almost continually: why might shee not haue so many of those ministers as were necessarie for hir edification, during the time of y ^e la­ter persecution which hath continued how almost a thou­sand yeeres togithers? Yea, and why might not she haue y ^e ministration of Sacraments, and execution of discipline, as well in the one time as in the other? And so, by good consequence, Why may not the Protestants Church be the [Page] Catholique church of Christ, as well as that Church was, that differed as much in all points, from the knowne Po­pish Catholique church, as our Protestant Catholique church dooth differ now, from the same?

I conclude therefore, that it is altogither vnnecessary, to prooue any way, that any other gospell or doctrine, then that which was preached by the Apostles, or any other Sa­cramēts, then the same that Christ Iesus did first institute, or any other discipline, then that which y ^e Catholique church of Christ hath practized: should hée preached, ministred, and practized vniuersally & openly, y ^t thereby wée might prooue our Church to be Catholique. For it is manifest by the hy­stories, that the right Catholique church hath sildome had such fréedome vpon earth, that shee might haue hir doctrine publikely, & vniuersally preached, hir sacraments ministred and hir discipline practized. Wherefore, except you will shew your selfe wilfull and obstinate, you must now re­cant, although heretofore you would not.

The tenth offer.

Offerer.

10 Tenth. For as much as the Protestants doo affirme, their congregation, faith and Religion, to haue bin practi­zed in the Primatiue Church of Christ, some of them for the space of the first three hūdreth yeeres, as Iohn Cal­uin: some for the space of foure or fiue hundred yeeres, as Martin Luther and his complices: some for the whole space of the first sixe hundred yeeres, as M. Ievvell, and the authors of the Apollogie of the Church of England, and therein not agreeing amongst themselues (as the manner of Heretikes is) I require some better staied and certaine tale of them, where and when this sodaine change from the Protestants religion to the Papists should bee made as in what yeere of our Lord, vnder what Pope and Em­peror? by what persons of name it was so wrought and brought to passe, and vpon what occasion, and what A­postles, Prophets, Euangelists, Pastors, and Doctors of their congregations did gainesay or withstand the same? And [Page 36] who dooth make any mention of this sodaine & meruei­lous change of the Protestants religion to Papistrie? what one Ecclesiasticall writer, or auncient Father of the whole world? and when they shalbe able resonably to answere and to satisfie these my demaunds, then I will recant and yeelde to them, and not before.

Crowley.

This Offerer minding vtterly to discredit the Prote­stants hath with his pen testified for them, that they doo al agree in this one point, which is, that their Congregation, Faith, and Religion, haue bin practized in the Primatiue church of Christ. But here hée thinketh to discredit them all. Some of them (as Iohn Caluin, doo affirme that this was for the space of the first thrée hundreth yéeres, some o­ther (as Martin Luther and his complices) for the space of foure or fiue hundreth yéeres, and some others (as M. Iewell and the authors of the Apologie of the Church of England) for the whole space of the first fixe hundreth yéeres, &c. To this I say: That such amongst vs as haue said that y ^e con­gregation or Church whereof wée bée, had continuance for the space of the whole first sixe hundreth yéeres, haue sayd truely: and they that haue said, for the space of thrée, foure, or fiue hundreth yéeres, haue kept themselues within their bounds, and therefore they haue not lied. If Caluin had said, that the Church whereof wée bée, had continuance for no longer time then the first thrée hundreth yéeres, where Luther had said before, that it had continuance for the space of foure, or fiue hundreth yéeres: And M. Iewell, comming after them both should haue said, the continuance was for the space of the first sixe hundreth yéeres, in such perfection as in the first thrée hundreth yéeres: then this Offerer might haue taken some oecasion to note disagréement, such as is to bée séene amongst Heretikes. But now, hée hath no iust occasion at all.

Caluin considered, that during the time of the first 300. yeeres, the Church of Christ was still vnder tyrants, [Page] and was persecuted, and was thereby kept occupied in bet­ter exercises, then in such pompous and ceremonial diuine seruice, as now is vsed in your popish Catholique church. And therefore hee is bolde to say, that the Church, where­of wee Protestants bee, is the same that was in the first 300. yeeres after Christ: for wee haue abandoned (as farre foorth as wee may) all those superfluous ceremonies, as haue bin diuised by men, and enforced vpon the Church of Christ, since the ende of the first 300. yeeres: which are in deede too too many, as by the woords of saint Augustine Epist. 119. August, in Epist. 119. Ad Ianuarium. Seruilibus oneribus premunt, vt to­lerabilior fit conditio Iudeorum, &c? They oppresse vs with seruile burdens: so that the condition or estate of y ^e Iewes, was more tollerable then ours is. None of all those bur­dens were layde vpon the Church before the ende of y ^e first 300. yeeres: but the Christians being vnder the crosse of persecution, serued God in fréedome of conscience, & were not tied to any necessity of ceremonies, but vsed a few such ceremonies as séemed to serue best for their edification in their exercise of religion, and so doo wée, and that congre­gation also amongst whom Caluin liued, which might mooue him to say, that the faith and religion that is profes­sed by vs, was practized in the first 300. yeeres, after the incarnation of our sauiour Christ.

But this Offerer requireth some better staied & certaine tale, &c. bicause Luther and other doo differ from Caluin. He must know where & when this sodaine change from y ^e pro­testants religion to the papists was made, as in what yéere of our Lord, &c. If it shal please him to read it, & aduisedly to weigh euery part of it: hee shall haue heere as plaine a tale (concerning this matter) as euer hée did read or heare. And thus it beginneth.

When Christ Iesus had giuen so large a commission to his Apostles, as to go into all the world, & to teach all nati­ons, baptizing them in the name of y ^e father, of the sonne, & of y ^e holy Ghost: they executed that cōmission, with al paine­full diligence, not fearing what man either would or could [Page 37] doo against them. And so in short time, the knowledge of the gospell was spred all the world ouer: as the Apostle Paule writeth to the Romaines Cap. 10. Rom. 10. citing the woords of the Prophet Dauid. Psal. 19. Psal. 19. Jn omnem terram, &c. The sound of them is gone out into all the world, &c. But the doctrine of the gospell which they preached was not so regarded in y ^e city of Rome as it should haue bin, & as it séemeth that this Offerer and his fellowes bée persuaded that it was, at that time, wherein saint Paule was brought prisoner to Rome: which was in the tenth yeere of the raigne of Nero, & but foure yéeres before S. Paule ended his life. At that time, the chiefe amongst the Iewes that then liued in Rome, being called togither by S. Paule, and being occasioned by him to speake of the christian Religion, they said thus. Wee are willing to heare of thee what thine opinion is: for we doo know, that this sect, is euery where spoken against. Act. 28 Act, 28, Yea, and when S. Paule was first called to his answere be­fore the Emperor: the Christians then in Rome, were so faint hearted, that they did leaue him alone, as he him selfe hath written to Timoth. 2. Timoth. 4. 2. Timot. 4. In prima mea defen­sione, nemo mihi affuit, sed omnes dereliquerunt me: non illis im­putetur, &c. In my first defence, no man did take part with mee, but all did forsake mee: God grant that it bee not laid to their charge: but the Lord did assist & strengthen me, &c. And this was more then thirty yeeres after our Sauiour Christ had sent foorth his Apostles to preach.

If Peter were bishop of Rome at y ^e time that S. Paule speaketh of in that 4. Cap. 2. Timoth. surely then, hee per­formed not the parte of a good bishop, neither yet of a good christian. For amongst all, hee must needes bee one. And S. Paule saith that all did forsake him.

But let this passe. The estate of the whole Church was no better in those daies: yea, it was not much better at any time, during the first 300. yeeres after Christes ascention. For when Constantinus the first christian Emperor, began his raigne: Syluester, then bishop of Rome, had not his a­boade then in Rome, but made his dwelling place in some [Page] caue in a mountaine named Soracte, xx. myles distant from Rome, that so hée might bée more safe from the tyrannie of the Romaine Emperor. But when hee vnderstoode that Constantinus, was likely to bee fauorable to y ^e Christians: hée repaired to y ^e City. By this it may appeare, of what ac­count the Romaine bishops had bin, & what publike & open preaching of the gospell there had bin, in the City of Rome during that time of the first 300. yeeres.

It appeereth in Hystories, that they had their places wherein they met, and had the preaching of the woorde & ministration of the Sacraments: but those places were not such as Saint Peters Church, which is now in Rome. For that Church, with the rest of the Churches in Rome, were not then builded, as in Platina, and in other Hysto­ries it appeereth.

By this, you may see what cause Caluin had to say that the Catholique Religion (which is the same that wee pro­testants doo now professe) was practized for the space of the first 300. yeeres after Christ.

From that time forward, Religion began to decline by litle, and litle, from that perfection that it had continued in vnder persecution, and to grow towards that great decay that it came vnto in the dayes of Bonifacius the third. Martin Luther therefore, and M. Iewell, with the rest of the authors of the Apologie of the Church of England, had iust cause to say that it continued in the Romish church for the space of the first foure, fiue, yea, sixe hundreth yéeres after Christs ascention: for the Romish church was not al­togither fallen away from the Catholique Religion, before shee had taken vpon hir the title of Antichrist, which was in the dayes of Phocas the Emperor, at whose hands Bo­nifacius obtained the prophane title of vniuersall bishop, whereof Gregorie the first, surnamed the great, writeth thus. Grego. Epi. 66. Epist. 66. ad Mauricium imperatorem. Sed absit a cor­dibus christianorum, nomen istud blasphemiae, in quo omnium sacerdotum honor adimitur, dum ab vno sibi d [...]m [...]nter arroga­tur. But, let this name of blasphemie bee far from christi­an [Page 38] hearts, wherein the honor of all Priests is taken away, whils one Priest dooth like a mad man, arrogate the same vnto him selfe. And againe. Episto. 68. Grego. Epi. 68. Ad Iohn Episc. Constantinopol. Tu quid Christo, vniuersalis scilicet Ecclesiae capiti, in extremi iudicij es dicturus examine, qui cuncta eius membra tibimet conaris vniuersalis appellatione supponere? What wilt thou say vnto Christ, that is, to the head of the vniuersall Church (saith Gregorie to Iohn bishop of Con­stantinople) in the triall of the last iudgement: which doost, by the name of vniuersall, goe about to make subiect vnto thy selfe, all his members? who can write or speake more plainely in this matter, then this Gregorie hath written both to Mauricius the Emperour, and to Iohn Bishop of Constantinople?

I hope therefore, you will take this for a stayed & cer­taine tale: and bée therewith satisfied. Considering that after Constantine the first christened Emperor, had endu­ed the Church with some possessions, and so poysoned the Church (as by a voice that was heard from heauen, it was signified, which voice vttered this speach, Hodie datum est venenum in Ecclesiam, This day is the Church poysoned) that poyson did not presently worke the effect, but by litle and litle. So that the change from the Protestants religi­on, to Poperie was not sodaine (although meruailous) but brought to passe by leysure, and yet with as much spéede as the Dragon could, by his members and ministers bring it to passe. As for gainesayers it lacked none: amongst whom I thinke you will allowe Gregorie the first to bee one of the chiefest. Now therefore I require your promise, which is, to recant and yéelde, although you haue hitherto refused so to doo.

The eleuenth Offer.

Offerer.

Let the learned Protestant shew me what order of ser­uice 11 or cōmon prayer, what order of ministration of sacra­ments [Page] their Church had before Papistrie (as they call it) preuailed in the world. Let him shew mee one booke, or copie of any communion, or what els you list, that was in English, or in any vulgar or cōmon tongue, beside the He­brew, Greeke, and Latine: or that lacked prayer for the foules departed, or inuocation to saints, or sacrifice for the sinnes both of the quicke and the dead, or that charged a number to receiue with the priest, or that he could not els consecrate, or say Masse receiuing alone, or that the people should take the sacrament for bread and wine, and not for the reall body & blood of Christ, or that they should giue no honor to it, or not reserue the same for the comfort of the sicke and diseased people, or that denied extreme vn­ction, with the rest of the sacraments, to bee behoufull or necessarie for them: let the learned Protestant bring forth and shew such a communion booke, or any leafe, line, or word of any such doctrine, or any Church or congregati­tion, that euer had authenticall seruice or ministration of the sacraments, other then that which is yet daily and o-openly practized in the common knowne Catholique church of Christ, and I shall then recant, and not before.

Crowley.

It séemeth by this Offer, that this Offerer and his fel­lowes are perswaded, that what soeuer is now openly pra­ctized, in the popish diuine seruice and ministration of sa­craments; hath bin so openly practized, as now it is, euen e­uer since the Church of Christ, was first planted in the Ci­ty of Rome. Which is a wronge persuasion. For the greatest number of the ceremonies (yea, well nigh all) that are now vsed in that ministration, haue bin diuised since the ende of the first 300. yéeres, as by their owne Hysto­ries it dooth most plainly appeere.

I will therefore answere this offer with another, not much vnlike to this: and thus I say. Let this Offerer shew [Page 39] mée, what order of seruice or common praier, what order of ministration of sacraments, the Church had, before the end of the first 300. yéeres. Let him shew mée one booke or co­py of any communion, or what els you list, that was in He­brew, Gréeke, Latine, or in any other language, that had in it prayer for the soules departed, or inuocation to saints, or sacrifice for the quicke and the deade, or that did not cōmand a number to receiue with the priest, or that did teach the people not to take the sacrament for breade and wine, but for the reall body and blood of Christ, or that they shoulde giue honor to the outwarde sacrament, or that they should reserue it for the sicke & diseased people, or that taught ex­treme vnction, Confirmation, Order, Penance, and Matri­mony to bée Sacraments, behooufull or necessarie for Chri­stians: let this learned Offerer, bringe foorth and shew, such a communion booke, or any leafe, line, or word of any such doctrine, or any Church or congregation, that euer had any such authenticall seruice, or ministration of sacra­ments, as is now openly practized, in the cōmonly knowne popish Catholique church, before the ende of the first 300. yeeres: And then will I recant, and bée a Papist, as this Offerer is, and not before.

I thinke I haue offered you faire play. If you like the offer take it. I will not flée from it. If not: for shame bragge no more of the antiquitie of your authentike ser­uice that is now practized in your Antichristian Catholike church. But recant as you haue promised.

The first bishop of Rome, that was bolde to diuise a­ny thing to bée added to that which the Apostles vsed in the ministration of the Lords supper, was Alexander the first. And what did hée? Platina saith, that this man added: Qui pridem quam pateretur, vsque ad hanc clausulam, hoc est Corpus meum. Which is thus in English. Which a day before hee suffered, euen vnto this clause: This is my body. And Platina saith, that Alexander did this, that there might bee a remembrance of the passion of Christ. [Page] Hée deuised also the making of holy water, the vse where­of, was to driue diuells out of Temples and chambers, He ordained also, that water should bée mixed with the wine in the ministration of the Sacrament, and that the breade should not bée leauened, but vnleauened, to take away the occasion that the Ebionits tooke to finde fault in that behalfe. Thus much writeth Platina in vita Alexandri. primi. This Alezander was the sixt bishop of Rome after Peter, Plantina in vita Alexan­dri primi. if Platina haue written truly: and was made bishop in the yéere 110. after y ^e incarnation of our sauiour Christ, which was 70. yéeres after (as it is supposed) y ^t Peter was made bishop of Rome. So that y ^e church vsed none of those things that were diuised by him, for the space of those 70. yéeres, of the first 300. yeeres.

After this Alexander Sixtus. 1. was made bishop of Rome: in the yeere 121. after the incarnation of our saui­our Christ (if the hystories bee true) and the fourescore yeere after the supposed entring of Peter into the Bysho­pricke of Rome. This man diuised sundrie things, as Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus, to bée songe in the celebration of the Lords supper. But heere I must note how vnlikely this is to bée true: for as saint Augustine hath written in y ^e 7. August. li. 9. Conf. Ca. 7. Chapter of the 9. booke of his confessions: the custome of singing in churches was not begun in the Latine church before the dayes of Ambros, who liued about the yeere of our Lord 380. And more ouer: it can not bee prooued by any hystories, that the Christians had any liberty to builde any church in the citie Rome, before the time of Constan­tine the Emperoure, who builded at his owne charges, the first churches that the Christians had in Rome. But let it bée as Platina hath written, in the life of Sixtus the first. Hée commanded that Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus, that is, holy, holy, holy, should bee songe in the celebration, that is in the ministration of the cōmunion. But I pray you marke what Platina saith further. Nuda primo haec erant, &c. At the first, those things were bare and naked, and all thinges were handled simply. For when Peter did consecrate, hée [Page 40] vsed the prayer, Our father: Iames, the bishop of Hierusa­lem encreased or enriched these mysteries: and so did Ba­sill, and other. For Celestinus, gaue the Introite of y ^e Masse: Gregorie, the Kyrie eleison: Telesphorus, the Gloria in excelsis Deo: Gelasius the first, gaue the Collations: and Hierome the Epistle and the Gospell. Haleluia was taken from the church of Hierusalem. The Credo, from the counsell of Néece. Pelagius inuented the cōmemoration of the deade. Leo the third, inuented the Incense. Innocent the first, in­uented the kissing of the Paxe: And Sergius, ordained that Agnus Dei should bée songe. But séeing that in the daies of Sixtus, fewe were founde (by reason of the often mur­ders or slaughters of Christians) that durst professe the name of Christ: and the Christians in France did desire to haue a bishop: Sixtus did send vnto them one Peregrinus, a citizen of Rome, &c. Thus far Platina.

By these woords of Platina, it appeareth, that during the first 80. yeeres after saint Peters supposed entring into the bishopricke of Rome: there was no more vsed in the ministration of the Lords supper, but the Lords prayer, which beginneth thus, Our father which arte in heauen, &c. Celestinus, that gaue the Introite of the Masse, was not bishop in Rome, before the ende of 420. yeeres after Christ: so that for the space of 420. yéeres your Masse had no Introite. That Gregorie, that appointed the Kyrie elei­son, was made bishop of Rome in y ^e yéere 590. after Christ: so that your Masse lacked that parte, for the space of 600. yeeres almost. Telesphorus, added the Gloria in excelsis: a­bout 130. yeeres after Christ, so that your Masse did lack that parte, so longe time. Gelasius the first, that diuised the Collations, was bishop of Rome, about 490. yeeres af­ter Christ: so that your Masse lacked hir Collations, almost 500. yéeres. Hieronimus, that added the Epistle and Gos­pell: was neuer bishop, either in Rome or else where. Hee liued in Bethlehem, about 380. yéeres after Christ: so that your Masse had no Epistle or Gospell, for 380. yeeres after Christ. And your Halleluia was taken from the church of [Page] Hierusalem, by Gregorie y ^e first, who was bishop of Rome about the yéere of our Lord, 590. The Nicene Créede could not be vsed before that councell wherein it was agréed vp­on: which was 330. yeeres after Christ. And Pelagius that inuented the remembrance of the deade, was made bishop of Rome, in the yeere of our Lord 556. so that for the space of so many yeeres after Christ, there was no re­membrance of the deade in your Masse. Leo the third, that inuented y ^e burning of Incense, was made bishop of Rome in the yeere 796. after Christ: so that for the space of so ma­ny yeeres, there was no burning of Incense in churches. Innocent the first, was made bishop of Rome, in the yeere 406. hée inuented the kissing of the Paxe at Masse: so longe therefore was your Masse without that ceremonie. And Sergius, that appointed the singing of Agnus Dei, was made bishop of Rome in the yeere after Christ 694. or there about: so that your Masse lacked hir Agnus Dei, for the space almost of 700. yeeres after Christ.

Now M. Offerer, consider with your selfe (I pray you) whether the learned Protestant may not as easily prooue the antiquitie of his communion booke, euen from the A­postles time: as you may prooue your Authenticall seruice, and ministration of sacraments, now daily & openly practi­zed. If you would with indifferent iudgment, weigh al that I haue here written: I doo not doubt but you would cōfesse that during y ^e first 90. yéeres after Christs ascention: there was no prescribed order set downe in any booke for publike seruice or ministration of sacramēts, other then y ^t which is contained in y ^e scriptures. Wherefore there is none so great a cause of misliking in oure common booke, as that there be so many of your latter inuētions allowed of in it. And sure­ly, if our princes & people would yéelde to a perfect reforma­tion: wee might make our communion booke a great deale lesse then it is, by blotting out of it all that hath bin inuen­ted by your bishops of Rome. Thus I doo thinke I haue said enough to cause you to recant, although you would not before.

The twelfth Offer.

Offerer.

I demaund of the learned Protestant to know cause and reason why their congregations; doo admit and receiue all bishops, priests, deacons, 12 and other officers spirituall, ordered by our Catholike church as men lawfull and sufficient to preach the word of God, to minister the Sacra­mēts, & to exercise all spirituall iurisdiction in no lesse wise, but rather more then if they had bin ordred in their owne congregations: where­as the Catholike church of Christ dooth not acknowledge any man of their ordering and calling to be any whit the more fit, for any spirituall function in Christ his church, then other cōmon lay men. When there­fore, the learned Protestant shalbe able to shew good cause and reason, why our Catholike church, hauing by their owne consent and approo­uing lawfull priestes, bishops, and spirituall ministers, not to be also the lawfull, true, and Catholike church of Christ: I will then recant, and not before.

Crowley.

This Offer, is altogither friuolous and foolish. For what reason was it that mooued this vnreasonable Offe­rer, to require the learned Protestant to shew cause and reason why our congregations doo those things that neuer any of our congregations did? Can this Offerer prooue that euer any congregation of Protestants did admit and receiue all bishops, priests, deacons, and other spirituall officers? &c. Wée doo in déede receiue the men that haue bin bishops, Priests, and deacons, &c. And finding them meete to serue either in the places that they serued in be­fore, or in any other, wée doo employ them in seruice in those places that we finde them méete for. And thus we doo, not bicause they haue bin ordered after your Antichristian maner: but bicause wee sée in them manifest signes of re­pētance that euer they yéelded to be made ministers of An­tichristian religion, & do desire to be admitted to serue God in the ministration of the true & right religion of Christ. As for your shauing, your clipping, & annoynting that you doo vse in the ordring & consecrating of your bishops, priests, & deacons: we estéeme as lightly of it as you either doo or can estéeme of our maner of ordering and consecrating of mini­sters of all sortes.

Wée know that no ceremonies that are or can be vsed in this behalfe (either by you or by vs) doo or can giue any abi­lity to the persons towards whom those ceremonies are v­sed, in y ^e admitting of them: but we doo vse them as meanes to put those persons in remembrance of those duties y ^t doo belonge to them in the office & calling, whereunto they are called & admitted. We doo not thinke, that you doo or can by your ceremonies imprimere characterē indelebilem, that is, imprint into such as you doo order, a marke that can not be blotted out: so that your priestes being once made priestes must continue so for euer. Neither doo we thinke it necessa­ry, to degrad your priests when they returne vnto vs, from your Antichristian religion, as you vse to doo before you de­liuer them to the seculer power, when you haue cōdemned them for heresie. For we know that the marke of the beast (which they receiued at your hands) is blotted out, by their hearty, and vnfained repentance, the signes wherof, we sée in them before we doo admit them to serue in any calling amongst vs, either Ecclesiasticall or Ciuill.

You might much better haue charged vs with consen­ting vnto, and allowing of the lawfulnes of your priests & bishops, bicause we be not rebaptised: but then (perhaps) you think we would charge you with the like consent, and approouing of y ^e lawfulnes of our ministery, for that you doo not rebaptise such as haue bin baptised by vs.

But to be short, I conclude thus. Though we doo receiue such as doo come from you, as S. Paule was receiued com­ming from the Phariseis, & doo admit them to such offices amongst vs as wee finde them méete for, as S. Paule was admitted to the office of preaching & ministration of sacra­ments: yet we doo not thereby consent vnto, or allow of, the lawfulnes of your Antichristian ministers, more then the church y ^t receiued S. Paule cōming from the Phariseis, did thereby consent vnto, or allow of the sect of the Phariseis.

If this be a cause & reason sufficient (as I think it is) why the Protestants should neither take your Antichristian mi­nisters to be méete ministers of Christes religion, so longe [Page 42] as they remaine amongst you, nor refuse them when they shall repent, & bring forth fruits worthy & méete for repen­tance, and yet notwithstanding account & take your church for Antichristian: then I require you (M. Offerer) to fulfill your promise and recant, although you haue hitherto refu­sed so to doo.

The Thriteenth offer.

Offerer.

Thirteenth. I require of the learned Protestant to expresse what fur­niture, 13 furdrance or cōmoditie to the honor & serurce of God, did chri­stianity, or any part of Christendome receiue by his church or congre­gations? what temple or church did you build at any time for your assē ­bles, and seruice of God? what bishopricks for the better gouernment of the church did you founde or procure? what vniuersities, schooles, or colledges did you at any time erect for the maintenance of christian do­ctrine, faith, and religion? when the learned Protestant shalbe able to prooue by ecclesiasticall histories, and old auncient writers, these things to be monuments of their conuenticles and priuate congregations, of their faith and religion, and not of the common knowne faith, religion, and Catholique church of Christ, then I shall in like maner yeelde, and recant, and not before.

Crowley.

If this Offerer had liued in the dayes of the prophets or of the Apostles, hée would haue kept a iolly stur with them: for none of them were builders of Temples, Synagogues or Churches, neither were they Founders of vniuersities, schooles, or colledges. And yet was their faith and religion fruitfull, & so is ours, though none such fruits as this Offe­rer speaketh of should spring thereout. And yet I doo know that these are good works: & I hope I shalbe able to prooue, that the Protestants Catholique church hath not bin, nei­ther is slack in dooing these works when hability and opor­tunity may serue them.

If I might be so bolde, with M. Offerer: I would de­maund of him, & require him to expresse, who it was that builded S. Peters church in Rome, and the rest of the most auncient churches in that citie. I think he would answere with spéede, & say thus: it was Constantine the first christe­ned Emperor. If hée shall so say, he shal say truly: for so hath Platina and other more auncient Hystorians written. But [Page] here is the question, whether this Constantine were a Pro­testant Catholike, or such a Catholike as this Offerer is. For we hold that hee was a protestant Catholike, and this Offerer holdeth the contrary. The matter then resteth vpon proofe.

I doo thinke that I haue already prooued sufficiently, y ^t Constantine liuing & raigning in the end of the first 300. yéeres after Christ, could not be an Antichristian catholike, as this Offerer is: bicause the great Antichrist was not as yet spronge vp, although many Antichrists (or false Pro­phets) were in the world, euen when y ^e Apostle Iohn worte his first Epistle, as in the 4. Chap. thereof it appeareth: but that great Antichrist that S. Paule nameth the man of sin. 2. Thes. 2. did not begin to shew himselfe in the world, be­fore y ^e daies of Bonifacius the third, y ^t tooke vpon himselfe y ^e name & estate of the vniuersall head of Christs vniuersall church. And that was y ^e time wherein your Schismaticall church fell away from that true Catholike church, whereof Constantine was, and wée that beare the name of Prote­stants, now bée.

The bishopricks also, that were appointed or founded, at any time within the first 600. yéeres after Christ, & all the Vniuersities, Schooles, & Colledges, that were foūded with in that time, were founded & builded by protestant Catho­liques. For although many corruptions were spronge vp in the Catholike church (whereof wée be) before the end of the first 600. yéeres (euen as the tares doo springe vp amō ­gest the good graine, before the time of Haruest, & yet the field remaineth still a corne field, & not a field of tares) yet y ^e church was still Catholike, till the whole state did professe Antichristianisme, & began to persecute such as continued in the profession of the auncient & true Catholike religion, which is the same that wée doo now professe, & you and your sorte doo persecute. These haue not bin the worke of cōuen­ticles & priuate congregations (as it pleaseth you to terme all the particuler churches of Christ, that refuse to take the marke of the beast, and to acknowledge your Antichristian [Page 43] church to bee the knowne Catholike church of Christ) but they haue bin the fruits that haue spronge out of the same faith and religion, that was taught by Christ him selfe, & by his immediate Apostles, receiued, belieued, & professed by y ^e first Catholike christians, and is still professed by vs and is fruitfull in vs, when ability, and oportunity dooth serue.

In the daies of king Edward the sixt, of blessed memory, who founded (in London) Christs Hospitall, for the educa­tion of fatherles infants, S. Bartholmews Hospitall in smithfield, and S. Thomas Hospitall in Southwarke, for y ^e curing of diseased persons, did not the protestant Catho­likes make those charitable prouisions, & doo not they still maintaine the same? This Offerer may remēber, that his Antichristian catholikes did (in the time of quéene Maries raigne) attempt to ouerthrowe those foundations agayne.

Who were the founders of Christs Colledge, S. Iohns, & Trinitie Colledge in Oxforde, of Emanuell, & Marimag­dalen, & Caius Colledge in Cambridge, did they not beare the name of protestant Catholikes that founded them? Ma­ny grammer Schooles also might be named, & diuers other prouisions that protestant catholikes haue made, both for y ^e maintenance and increase of learning, and also for the suc­couring of the poore and néedy.

If any tares doo spring vp amogst this good graine: that haue bin sowne by the enuious man, it is no fruit y ^t spring­eth out of that good faith & religion that we professe. If your word & promise (therfore) be any thing worth: thē I require you to doo y ^e part of an honest man, in yéelding & recanting.

The foureteenth Offer.

Offerer.

Fourteenth. Let the learned protestant name any one fellowship or 14 company of belieuers in the whole Christian world, that in all articles of faith, and religion be in one vnity, in one meaning and beliefe, and contented also to captiue & submit their seueral meanings to the iudg­ment of their prelats and spirituall gouerners, and of one chiefe head & pastor amongst them in all Ecclesiasticall things and causes: let (I say) the learned protestant name any one company thus agreeing amonge themselues, and thus humbly affected in Christian faith and religion, [Page] sauing onely the holie and blessed fellowship of the common knowne Catholike church of Christ, and I will then recant, and not before.

Crowley.

Vnderstanding by the holy & blessed fellowship of the cō ­mon known Catholike church of Christ (as I am assured y ^t you doo) that Antichristian church that you are of: I cōfesse that there cānot any one fellowship or cōpany of belieuers in y ^e whole christian world be named, y ^t is such a fellowship or cōpany, as you would haue the learned protestant name vnto you: for in very déed, there is not one fellowship or cō ­pany of belieuers in y ^e whole world, so foolish, as to vēter y ^e saluation of their foules, vpon y ^e iudgmēt of other men: but only that fellowship whereof you are. But I doo vtterly de­ny y ^e fellowship to be y ^e knowne Catholike church of Christ, and am bold plainely to affirme, that it is the malignant & cursed church of Antichrist, & the filthy synagogue of satan.

The knowne Catholike church of Christ (whereof wée hée) dooth agrée in one vnity, & in one meaning & beliefe, in all the Articles of the christian faith & religion. Yea, & wée all (with that whole Catholike church) doo captiue & submit our seueral meanings, to that rule of religion, that the holy ghost hath set downe in the scriptures, which rule wée doo know to be so perfect, that it néedeth no addition, alteration or change, that man can deuise. And as for one chiefe head & Pastor, we acknowledge none amongst men: being assured that our one onely head Christ Iesus, that hath promised to be with vs continually euen to the end of y ^e world, neither is, nor will be from vs, but is and still will be with vs, and dooth still, and will (by the working of his holy spirite) in­struct and leade vs in the true vnderstanding of that rule of our religion that he hath left vnto vs, so that wée doo not, neither shal we at any time stand in néede of any such chief heade or Pastor, as this Offerer speaketh of.

As for Prelates & spirituall gouerners, we haue, such as bée able to breake & minister vnto vs, the spirituall foode of our soules, as well by preaching & expounding vnto vs that rule of our religion, as by ministring the sacraments y ^t our [Page 44] sauiour Christ hath ordained, & commaunded to bée vsed in his Church. To these wée giue credit, so longe as wée sée y ^t they swarue not from that rule, that both they and wée are bounde to followe, and they doo not desire to haue credit any further. And as touching their example of life, wée doo followe it, so far foorth as wée sée that they followe Christ, and no further. For S. Paule did not wish the Corinthians to follow him further, then they should sée that hée followed Christ. If you bée not obstinately bent, to stand to your takling, against all reason, and christian knowledge: this that I haue héere written, may suffice to mooue you to re­cant, although hitherto you haue refused so to doo.

The fifteenth Offer.

Offerer.

Fifteene. Againe, I do demande of the learned protestant 15 whether the Lutherans, Zuinglians, Illirians, Caluinists, Con­fessionists, Svvinkfildians, Anabaptists, and such like, be all of one church and congregation or no? And if he be able to prooue these sects, being of such diuersity in faith and reli­gion, to make one church, and that euery one of them may giue saluation to their fellowes, being so disagreeable one with another in high pointes of faith and religion, or that I ought to belieue all those, rather then the one true Ca­tholike church of Christ: or yet any of these, more one then another, all of them making such a bolde challenge of the truth of Gods word and gospell. When the learned Protestant shalbe able by good reason, or drift of argumēt to satisfie these my requests: then I shall yeelde and recant, and not before.

Crowley.

If I did not knowe that this Offerer is past all shame: I could not meruell enough to sée that he would demaunde of the learned Protestant, a proofe by good reason and drift of argument: that Luther, Zuinglius, Illiricus, Caluin, the Confessionists, Swinkfild, and the Anabaptists, should bée [Page] members all of one church. For the darknesse is no more contrary to the light, neither falshoode to the truth, nor the deuill to God: then the doctrine of Swenkfield and of the Anabaptists, is to the doctrine of Luther, Caluin, and Zuinglius.

But this is the drift of this Offerer. To beare the world in hand, that wée Protestants, doo holde & maintaine euery point of doctrine, that is contrarie to, or diffreth from that Antichristian doctrine, which hée & his fellowes doo call Ca­tholike: and that wée haue none other authors of our reli­gion, but these whom hee hath héere named, & such like.

Vndoubtedly, hée is heerein very much disceiued. For although wée doo for good cause, like very well of the iudg­ment of some of these men that bee heere named: yet wée haue not sworne to belieue all that they haue written, nei­ther yet anie one woorde, that they haue written, fur­ther then they haue by the scriptures made proofe of that which they haue affirmed in writing. Wée are not Luthe­rans, Zuinglians, nor Caluinists: but wée are Christians, as (in our opinion) Luther, Zuinglius, and Caluin were. They were of one minde with S. Austen: that desired no credit, further then hée prooued his assertions, by scripture. I pray you therefore (good M. Offerer) offer vs not such discurtisie, as to cause the world to conceiue such an opini­on of vs, that wée holde and maintaine, wée care not and knowe not what. Wée thanke the Lord our God, wée are not ignoraunt what wée doo, and what Christians ought to belieue: and wée are ready and able to render an account of the hope that is in vs. And our God hath made vs able to iudge of the spirites, and to discerne the spirite of truth, from the spirite of errour. And by that gifte of our God, wée are made able to sée that your spirite, is the spirite of Antichrist, and your religion Antichristian. And that the religion that wée doo professe, is Catholique, and the same that was professed and practized, euen in Rome, for the space of 300. yeeres and more, next after the ascention of our Sauiour Christ.

And where as you require the learned Protestant to prooue that these sectes, being so diuers, &c. or any of them do giue saluation to theyr fellowes, and that you ought to bée­léeue them all, or any one of them: we leaue to your selfe, to be discussed at your leasure. For we knowe that no compa­nie or societie of men, hath any power to giue any saluation neither to others, or to themselues: & that no man is bound to beléeue another, farther then hée dooth knowe, that the same hath and dooth speake and write the trueth. I sée no cause therefore, why you should not yéeld and recant, al­though the learned Protestant, neither can prooue, nor will take vpon him to prooue the thing that you haue so impu­dently required him to prooue.

The sixteenth Offer.

Offerer.

Sixteenth. When the Protestant shalbe able to prooue, that those persons which in theyr departure made frō the Catholique Church of Christ, haue more desire to beare the name of Sectaries, as of Lutherans, Zuinglians, Illerians Caluinistes, Swenkfieldeans, & Anabaptistes, thē the name of Christians or Catholiques, are the true members of Christ his Church, and not Heretickes, and Schismatickes, nor yet followers therein of theyr fathers the Arians, whych tooke theyr names of Arrius, the Maniches of Manes, the Nestorians of Nestorius: the Nouatians, the Ʋigilians, the Iouinians, Pelagians, Eutichians, and others, then I shal yeeld and recant, and not before.

Crowley.

Let the Protestant make the lyke offer, and so the one offer shall be a sufficient answer to the other. When the Antichristian Catholique shalbe able to prooue that suche persons, as doo desire rather to be called Fraunciscans of Fraunces, Dominicans, of Dominicke, Benedictines, of Be­nedict, [Page] Augustiniās, of Augustine, Barnardines, of Barnard, Brigettines, of Briget, and so foorth of all the seuerall orders of Friers, Monkes, Chanons, and Nunnes, rather then by the common name of Christians, bee true members of Christes Catholique Church, and not Sectaries, Heretic­kes, and Schismatickes, nor yet followers of theyr Fa­thers, the Arrians, which tooke theyr name of Arius, &c. Then will the Protestant yéelde and recant, and so become an Antichristian Catholique, and not before.

A man might meruaile to sée the blindnes of this Offer­rer, that could not sée, howe easily this balde offer of his, might be turned backe vpon himselfe. Yea there is much greater reason to mooue any man to thinke, that the Mon­kes, Friers, and Chanons, Nunnes and others of the Po­pish religious persons, doo desire to be named after the first founders of their religions: then that they which do fauour and followe the doctrine of Luther, Caluine, or any other, doo desire to be called by the names of them whose doctrine they followe or fauour. For were it not that such as doo mislike with the doctrine of Luther and the rest, doo in di­rision call the fauourers of that doctrine by the names of those chéefe teachers of the doctrine: wée should not amongst thousands finde one that would giue any of those names to himselfe. But the Popes religious persons, doo for the most parte, blot out of memorie the names that were giuen vn­to them when they were baptised, as Frier Iohn Frauncis Minime of Nigion in Fraunce, was called Debnam by hys Progenie, and kindred whereof he came, and at his Bap­tisme, the name Samuell was giuen vnto him.

I thinke it will be hard for this Offerer to prooue that this is not a flat renouncing of Christ and Christendome. For in this new name, not onely the progenie of his natu­rall parentes is renounced, but that religion also, that was professed when he was baptised, and in that new professi­on that he hath made, thereis no promise made of obedi­ence to Christ, or vowe to obserue Christian religion, but to obay the Father Prior and all the superiours in that or­der: [Page 46] and to obserue that rule of S. Frauncis order. If this be not a flatte forsaking of Christ: then vndoubtedly, no man can forsake him.

And what may bée thought of you Antichristian Catho­liques? Doo not you forsake Christ, where you chuse a man to bée his Vicar generall, captiueing and submitting your seuerall meaninges, to the iudgement of your Prelates and spiritual gouerners, and of one chéefe heade and pastor amongest those Prelates, and that in all Ecclesiasticall thinges and causes?

Well, I would wish you to remember your selfe better, and to consider from how good, loouing and faithfull a shéep­heard you are gone astray: and by howe many waies hee hath, and dooth still séeke to bringe you home againe to hys shéepfolde, the right and true Catholique Church, consider that you haue willingly wittingly and wilfully made your selfe captiue, to the greatest enimy that your shéephearde Christ hath or can haue. Make hast to returne: your shéepe­heard will with ioy receiue you. Your sinne is great in for­saking such a shéepheard: and yet not so great but it may be pardoned. Repent, and beléeue the Gospell: and vndoubted­lie you shalbe saued. Let not the vaine estimation of the world stay you from saying. I yéeld and recant, although he therto it haue stayed you so, that you could not so say, not­withstanding that your conscience hath tolde you, that you ought so to doo, and say.

The seauenteenth Offer.

Offerer.

Seauenteenth. I demaund of the learned Protestant, 17 whether if the whole space of that thousand yeeres of blindnes, wherein theyr Church lay hid and vnknowen, suppressed by Papistrie, superstition and Idolatry, as they terme it, whether they which were then baptised, and o­penly professed Christ, were saued or not. If the Prote­stant doo answer, yea, consequently it followeth, that they [Page] were saued without the Church of Christ, liuing in all ig­noraunce, superstition and idolatry, as they say. If he aun­swer no, and that there was no saluation out of theyr hyd and vnknowen Church, then all men of al degrees, young and olde, for the whole space of the foresayd thousande yeeres, (by the Protestantes iudgement,) perished without all hope of Gods mercy, and were damned. When therfore the learned Protestant shalbe able to prooue by good rea­son and argument, eyther that there is a way to saluation without the Church of Christ, or that all people profes­sing Christ, perished for so many hundreth yeeres togea­ther, then wyll I recant, and not before.

Crowley.

It séemeth that this Offerer perswadeth himselfe, that by making this Offer, he shall put the learned Protestant to silence for euer. For if he shall open his mouth, and say yea, to that demaund which he maketh: then must it néedes followe by good consequence, that there is a way to saluati­on, without the Church of Christ (whereof no Christians eares can abide the hearing,) And if he say no: then it must néedes followe (by the lyke consequence) that all men of all degrees, young and olde, that were borne into the world and professed Christ for the space of a thousand yéeres toge­ther, dyd all perishe, without all hope of Gods mercie, and were all damned. Thus in the opinion of this proude Of­ferer, the poore Protestant, is enforced to giue ouer in the plaine féelde, and to yéeld and recant, and so to become a Popish Catholique. But I hope wée shall sée it fall out far otherwise.

Fyrst, the ground whereon this Offerer buildeth hys argument or reason is not sure. For he imagineth that the learned Protestants doo hold and affirme, or graunt, that theyr Church, béeing suppressed by Papistrie, superstition and Idolatrie, dyd lye so hidde and vnknowen for the space of a thousand yéeres: that no man could tell where to finde [Page 47] it. But that imagination is vaine and foolish. For although the Catholique Church (which is the Protestants Church) were, during the tyme of blindnes, sore opressed by Popish tirannie, and ouercountenaunced by Popishe superstition and Idolatrie: yet was it (euen then) as a cittie standing on an hil, & as a candle on a candlesticke, yea it was y ^e light of the world, & the salt of the earth, Math, 5. Math. 5. For when was the Church more obscure, or when could it be lesse regar­ded, then it was at that time wherein our Sauiour spake those wordes? As then therefore, euen so afterwarde in the tyme of the tenne first bloody persecutions: the Church of Christians was the cittie on the Hill, &c. And so was it (and is styll) during those 1000. yéeres that the Offerer speaketh of. For those thousand yéeres are not yet fully expired: and although God haue giuen Halsion dayes to Christians in some regions, as in Heluesia, and in the vpper Germanie, and now for a fewe yéeres, in England and in Scotland: yet in Fraunce, Spayne, Portingale, and in the lowe countries, and in Italy, the seauen headed beast dooth still holde battell against the two witnesses, that were slayne and are reui­ued. Apoc. 11. Apoc, 11,

But because our Catholique Church hath not at any time florished in the world, in such pompous maner as the Antichristian Catholique Church dooth and euer hath doone since it first began: therefore this Offerer imagineth, that it lyeth hydde and vnknowen, as in déede it dooth to such as he is: which will not sée nor knowe, that which most easilie may be knowen of all men.

He imagineth also, that none of them that haue béene or bée baptised amongst them, haue béene, bée, or can bée, of our Catholique Church, because such doo when they doo first come to yéeres of discretion, professe Christ openly after theyr Antichristian manner. But herein he is very much disceiued: for very many of vs were borne and baptised a­mongest them, of which number, I my selfe am one. And when I was growne vp to discretion. I professed Christ af­ter the Antichristian manner. But God, that had fore ap­poynted [Page] me, and the rest of his chosen children, to be vessels vnto honour: would not leaue vs in that filthy puddle of po­pish superstition, but did by his good meanes drawe vs out, and hath washed vs in the fountaine of water by the word of lyfe. Eph. 6. Ephe, 6, And we doo not doubt but there bée yet many amongest you, that in Gods good time shalbe drawne out of that filthy puddle, and washed as we bée.

No maruaile though such as this Offerer is can not sée this: For euen Elias the Prophet could not sée the like in Israell in his dayes. They haue sayth he, ouerthrowen thine Altar, they haue slaine thy Prophets, I doo remaine alone, a Prophet of the Lord: and they séeke to take away my life. But the diuine maiestie made answer: I haue re­serued for my selfe, 7000. that haue not bowed their knées to Baall, 3. Reg, 19. 3, Reg. 19 Though this Offerer and his fellowes, neyther could heretofore, nor can now sée any of our sort a­mongest them: yet God hath his number, euen in Roome vnder the Popes nose. And this is that sure seale that S. Paule wrote of to Timoth. The Lord knoweth who they bée, that are his, 2. Timoth. 2. 2, Timoth,

Cap, 2.It séemeth y ^t this Offerer is perswaded, that baptisme in water, and an outward and open professing of Christ, are infallible signes of saluation. The Israelites were in lyke manner perswaded concerning theyr circumsition and outward and open professing of the lawe. But Esay sayth E­say. 29. Esay, 29, as our Sauiour him selfe hath cited hys words Ma. 15. Math, 15 In vaine doo they worship mee: teachinge the doctrines and commaundements of men.

Circumcission, was to them, the infallible signe and seale of Gods couenant, made with theyr fathers and with them: and God neither dyd nor could disceiue them, but hée dyd alwayes performe that couenaunt towardes them, at that time, euen as hee had before performed the same to­wardes theyr fathers: but they brake the condition of the couenaunt, which they and theyr fathers had promised to kéepe, which was, to serue him according to his law. When they therfore had deuised wayes wherein they would serue [Page 48] God, not according to his lawe, but in many points contra­ry to his lawe: theyr circumcission therfore dyd profit them nothing, but was turned into vncircumcission. Rom, 2. Rom, 2,

Euen so batpisme is vnto vs, the seale of the new co­uenaunt, which God hath made with vs, and with our fore fathers: which couenaunt he neither dooth nor can breake. But when we breake the condition (which is to serue and honour him in spirit and in trueth. Ioh. 4. Iohn, 4,) then is our bap­tisme made vnprofitable to vs. For (as S. Peter hath writ­ten, 1. Peter, 3. 1, Pet, 3,) The baptisme that saueth vs: is not that which putteth away the filth of the flesh, but that whereby we are made bolde with a good conscience to stand before God, and to call vpon him. This is the baptisme of the spi­rite, whereby we are borne from aboue, and made the sons and daughters of God, and his spirit giuen vnto vs, which spirite dooth certifie our spirites that we are Gods children and the same spirite dooth enbolden vs to repaire vnto God as children to a Father, and to say vnto him, father, father. Yea and this spirite dooth leade vs as the children of God, and maketh vs able (in some measure) to serue him in ob­seruing the commaundementes of God. Rom, 8. Roma, 8,

How can you say that you doo obserue this condition of honouring and seruing God in spirit and in trueth: when in your outward exercise of religion, there is scarsely any one thing to bée séene, that sauoreth any thing at all of the spirite, but altogeather of the flesh? yea very fewe thinges that God hath commaunded, are to bee séene in your out­ward professing of Christ: but very many things that God hath flatly forbidden. Your temples or Churches stuffed full of images: and howe dooth the temple of God agree with images? 2, Cor, 6. 2, Cor, 6, your Churches builded and conse­crated to the honor of creatures, as of Angels and Saints? Your solemne festiuall dayes yerely obserued in the honor of creatures. Your inuocations and prayers: Your burning of incence before dead images and liuing men, and before that Sacrament, which our Christ ordayned to be receiued, in the remembraunce of his death and passion, and not to [Page] bée worshipped: your offering vp of this sacrament, as a sa­crifice for the sinnes both of the quicke and of the dead: your hanging of it ouer your Alters and your carying of it about in your pompous processions: your harmonious musicke, with the voices of men and children together, and the noise of Organes and other loude instruments of Musicke: your ringing of Belles, your burning of lightes in the open day­light, with I wot not how many other toyishe diuises that are vsed by you in your exercise of religiō: what one sparke of spirituall seruing and honouring of God can there be in them?

But your baptisme (although you haue diuised manie madde toyes which you doo vse in the ministration therof) remaineth the same in substance that our Sauiour Christ dyd commaund to be ministred to such as should beléeue by the preaching of the Gospell. Math, 28. Math, 28. Goe your way, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the father, of the sonne, and of the holy Ghost. You baptise not in the name of Antichrist, but in the name of the holy trinity, the Father, the Son, and the holy Ghost. The baptisme there­fore that we haue receiued amongst you, is as effectuall to vs, as the Baptisme that we minister to our infantes is to them?

Now you doo (I hope) sée, that your two horned argu­ment, dooth not stand vpon so sure a ground, as you séemed to be perswaded that it dyd. Wée may say yea to your que­stion: and yet not affirme that there is an other way to sal­uation, then by Christ. And wée may say no to your questi­on: and not be enforced thereby to deny that any of the peo­ple that professed Christ for the space of, 1000. yeeres were saued. Nowe therefore I require you to remember your promise, and to recant, which you haue hetherto refused to doo.

The eighteenth Offer.

Offeter.

Eighteenth. Let the learned Protestant make proofe 18 vnto me, how theyr hidde, vnknowen and secret Church, not hauing in it the Doctrine of Christs Gospell openlie, taught, no ministration of Sacramentes, no spirite of Pro­phesieng, no discipline or rod of correction, no ordering of Bishops, Preestes, and Ecclesiasticall ministers, nor yet a­ny other spirituall function executed in the same, for the space of a thousand yeres together: Let hym prooue their hidde and vnknowen Church, with the lacke of all these thinges, to be the true spouse and Catholique Church of Christ: and I will recant, and not before.

Crowley.

I haue already prooued sufficiently, that although our Catholique Church, was by Antichristian tirannie, verie sore oppressed, and by Popish supersticion, and by blasphe­mous idolatrie meruailously ouercountenaunced: yet in all that time of a thousand yéeres that this Offerer speaketh of, it was neuer so hidde, so vnknowen or so secret, but that it was still the Cittie on the hill, the Candle on the candle­sticke, the salt and the light of the world, euen as it was in the time of Christs being on earth in our nature, and vnder y ^e first ten horrible persecutions. The doctrine of the Gospel of Christ was taught, and the sacramentes of Christ were ministred in it, as openly as the Tiranny of Antichriste would suffer. It had the spirite of prophecie in as large me­sure as our head Christ Iesus knew to be méete for vs. The rodde of correction, or discipline was as much exercised as it might bée by them that had the power of the sworde ta­ken from them, and continually vsed against them. They lacked neyther Bishops, Préestes, nor other ecclesiasticall ministers, such as the heauenly father knewe to bée neces­sarie [Page] for them. These (although they were not ordered af­ter the Antichristian manner, by receiuing the marke of the beast) had theyr lawfull calling from God by man: and dyd execute theyr function faythfully, and shewed therin no slacknesse, but such as was enforced by open and bloodie Tirannie.

These thinges haue béene sufficiently prooued before, and that our Church was not so hydde, vnknowen and se­cret, in the tyme that is past of the .1000. yéeres that this Offerer speaketh of, neyther is it at this day in any part of the world, so hidde, &c. As this Offerer would beare vs in hand that it was and is in places where it is persecuted and shalbe till the whole time of the deuils libertie shalbe complet and ended. I doo not therefore sée wherefore you should not recant, as you haue promised.

The ninteenth Offer.

Offerer.

Nineteenth. Againe, on the other side, let the learned 19 Protestant prooue, that it is not the true Church of Christ, that hath in the face of the world, for the space of fifteene hundred yeeres past, exercised preaching, the conuersion of nations to the obedience of the Gospell, that hath al­waies had the administration of Sacramentes, the hearing of matters in controuersie, the orderly succession of Bi­shops, the vniformitie of solemne Ceremonies, and the v­nitie of faith, that hath in her selfe all holy functions of the spirite, as working of miracles, remission of sinnes, the true cence and interpretation of Gods word, that is beau­tified with diuersity of states commended by Christ, as with Martirs, with Confessors, holy virgins and such other. Let the Protestant prooue vnto me, that this is not the true Church, and that we are not bound to obey, and beleeue this Church and none other, in al controuersies & doubts vprising eyther by the difficulty of Scripture, or by vayne [Page 48] contention and pride of Heretickes: and I wyll yeelde and recant, and not before.

Crowley.

The Protestant hath already prooued, that the Church whereof this Offerer is a member: hath not béene of so long continuaunce as fiftéene hundreth yéeres: Yea, and that there be not yet a full thousand yéeres past, since that Church became of such power and estimation in the world, as now it dooth challendge to it selfe, and as this Offerer dooth bragge of.

That Church which is Catholique in déede (whereof all right Protestāts be members) hath bad continuance euen euer since this promise was made in y ^e daies of y ^e first man. I wyll put enimitie betwixt thée and the woman, betwixt thy séede and her séede: her séede shall breake thy heade, and thou shalt assalt his héele. Gen, 3. These wordes dyd God him selfe speake to the sperpent, and this promise dyd the first man and his wyfe beléeue, and they, and theyr faithfull posteri­tie, dyd from time to time looke for and long after the per­formaunce of this promise, euen tyll our Sauiour Christ (which is that blessed séede of the woman) had in déede per­formed it. Our Sauiour Christ speaking of this looking for and longing after: sayd thus to his disciples. Many Pro­phets and Princes haue desired to sée those things that you sée, and haue not séene them, and to heare those wordes that you heare, and haue not heard them. Luc. 10. Lucae, 10, And againe speaking to the Iewes he sayd. Your father Abraham dyd aduaunce him selfe that he might sée my day, and he dyd sée it, and reioyce in it. Iohn, 8. Iohn. 8. And this Catholique Church, hath continued still, in all troubles and persecutions, and dooth continue to this day, and so shall to the ende, still re­ioysing in the day of Christ that is already past, and looking and longing after that day of his that is yet to come: which is the day of his appearing in glory, when all his shall ap­peare with him in glorie, Colo, 3. Coloss, 3

This Church hath had the vse of Sacraments, euer since Sacraments were instituted. But before Abrahams time, there was not any Sacrament ordayned, for the first Sa­crament was Circumcision, and the other Sacrament was the Passe-ouer, which was instituted in the dayes of Mo­ses. By this it appeareth that the Church was before the sa­cramentes were: and so it followeth by good consequence, that Sacramentes are not necessarily required to the con­stituting of a Church. Yea and after those Sairamentes were instituted, the vse of them was by occasion intermit­ted: and yet the Church that dyd intermit the vse of those Sacramentes, was still the Church of God notwithstan­ding the intermitting of the vse of the Sacraments. As in the time of the people of Isralites béeing in the wildernes, which was fortie yéeres: both Circumcission and the Passe­ouer were intermitted, and yet that people were styll ac­counted to bée, and were in déede the Church of God. Euen so, our Sauiour Christ haueing fulfilled the lawe, did insti­tute two Sacramentes, in the place or stéede of those two that were before hys incarnation, namely Baptisme, and the Sacrament of his body and blood, and left them to hys Church, with commaundement that they should bee vsed in hys Church, and therfore the Church of Christ may not refuse to vse them. But yet, if by iust occasion the Church shalbe enforced to intermit the vse of them, for as long, or longer tyme, then the Isralites dyd intermit y ^e vse of theyr Sacramēts: this may not be thought to be a iust cause to ac­count that Church to be no Catholique Church, which hath for a tyme intermitted the vse of Sacramentes.

But that Catholique Church whereof we Protestants be members: hath not any at time intermitted y ^e vse of these two Sacraments that Christ hath ordayned, no not in the tyme of most bloody persecution, as in most auncient Histo­ries it dooth appeare. And after the ende of those bloody per­secutions (which dyd continue almost to the ende of the first 300. yéeres after Christes ascention (the same Church dyd continue the vse of the same Sacramentes publiquely and [Page 51] openly, which before that time bloodie Tirrannie would not suffer them to doo.

But when the tyme of Apostacie was come, and the man of sinne (of whom S. Paule wrote, 2, Thessa, 2. 2, Thessa, 2) had gotten the vpper hand: then this Church was inforced to leaue that open vse y ^t of Sacraments that it had continued for the space (almost) of 300. yéeres, and to vse them, as before shee had doone, in the time of the first bloody persecutions. For the Romane Church béeing fallen away from the Catho­lique Church, became as bloodily minded, as euer the Ro­mane Empire had béene.

Thus the Catholique Church (whereof wee bée mem­bers) hath continued and dooth stil continue the vse of those Sacraments that Christ hath instituted. As for confirma­tion, order, and that which you call penaunce, matrimo­ny, and extreame vnction: wée doo not acknowledge to bée Sacraments, because they agrée not with the definition or discription of a Sacrament, which is, a visible signe of an inuisible spirituall grace, instituted by Christ him selfe: we knowe and doo confesse that confirmation is a good order, and may bée vsed to the edification of the Church, and ther­fore, it is appointed by publique Authority, y ^t when young­linges shalbe instructed so that they shalbe able in some measure to make profession of the Christian fayth: they shal bée brought to the Bishop, that by prayer to God for them, and laying on of his handes vpon them, they may bée the better confirmed in that faith which they haue learned and professed.

The ordering, of ministers, we allowe of also, as of a good & profitable order in the Church: for we know that no man may take vpon himselfe, that honour, but such as shalbe cal­led thereunto as Aron was. And therefore, as great care as may be is taken in the chosing of such as shalbe admitted to the ministry, and as great circumspection in the admitting. Heb. 5. If any fault be in this behalfe: it is not in the lawe that prescribeth a good and perfect order to be obserued herein, but in the lacke of care that may be in such as haue the exe­cution [Page] of the law. As touching that which you cal penance, wée doo neither accept of it as of a Sacrament, (because we knowe that it is none) neyther doo we take it for a good or­der, because we doo knowe that it is derogatorie to the glo­rie of Christ. The first part of your penaunce, whych you call contrition, or inward sorrow of hart, wee doo like well of, for as the Prophet Dauid saith. Psalme 51. Psal, 51, An humble and broken hart (O God) thou wilte not despise. Yea hee sayth that a troubled spirit is a sacrifice to God. The second parte of your penaunce, is confession. That part wee doo lyke of also: but not in such order as it is vsed amongest you. That is that the penitent person shall make rehearsall of all hys sinnes in the hearing of a Préest that knoweth not whether he speake truely or not. As S. Austin hath written in his tenth booke of confessions, Augusti. Conf. li. 10, Capi, 3. and in the thirde Chapter thereof. What haue I to do with men (sayth S. Austine) that they should here my confessi­ons, &c. We doo exhorte all men, to confesse all theyr sinnes to God, against whome they are committed, and in whose power onelie it is to forgiue them. If our sinnes be secret, so that none but God onely dooth knowe them: then doo we thinke it good to followe the counsell of Sirach, Eccles, 19, chap, 19, de­clare not thy sinnes, neyther to fréende nor to foe, &c. But if we haue sinned one of vs against an other: then we thinke it méete to followe the councell of S. Iames, in his Epistle, chap, 5. Iacob, 5, Confesse your sinnes one to an other, &c. But if the horrour of our sinnes be so great, that we can not, by anie of these meanes be assured of forgiuenes of them: then wée doo resorte, not to an ignoraunt Préest, but to such a one as we are assured can (or at the least way, we are perswaded y ^t he can) assure vs by the scriptures, that repenting our sins vnfaynedly and purposing to turne away from them, from thence foreward continually: the merciful God (our father) dooth so pardon and forgiue them, that hee will neuer laye them to our charge any more.

But y ^e third part of your penaunce, which you call satis­faction: wee doo vtterly detest and abhorre. For that wee doo [Page 48] knowe by the scriptures, that onely Christ is able to make satisfaction to God for sinne. Because no creature could bee worthy or méete to make satisfaction to God for sinne: ther­fore God the creator of creatures, would in the second per­son in Trinity, become man, that in mans nature he might dye, and be made a sacrifice for the sinnes of the world, yea that he might make him selfe a sacrifice, and by that one sa­crifice take away the sinnes of the world. If you lust to sée what Scriptures wee haue, for proofe of this that I haue here written: looke the 53, of Esaies prophecies, and the, 63, Ephe, 53. &, 63 Math. 1. Iohn, 1, 1. Timot. 1. Heb. 9.10, Chapter of the same prophecies. The first chapter of Saint Mathewes Gospell, the first of S. Iohns Gospell, the first of S. Paules first Epistle to Timoth. The ninth, and the tenth Chapters of the Epistle to the Hebrewes. As touching sa­tisfactions, therefore to be made to God: we renounce and forsake all and all manner of satisfactions that haue béene, or shalbe deuised by men: and we cleaue vnto that onelie, that Christ Iesus hath made once for all, by that one and e­uerlasting sacrifice that he hath made of hym selfe once for all.

But when we sin one of vs against an other (as too too of­ten wée doo) or when we sinne against the whole congrega­tion of Christians (as wee doo to often in déede) then wee thinke our selues bound, not onely to confesse our faultes one to an other, or to the whole congregation that is offen­ded by vs: but also to satisfie, by all meanes possible, those priuate persons, & also y ^e congregation of Christ by making such satisfaction as by any meanes we may be able to make And herein we follow the counsell (or rather the comman­dement) of our sauiour Christ, Math. 5. Math, 5. Agrée with thine aduersary quickly whilse thou art in y ^e way with him: least thine aduersary bring thée to the iudge, & the iudge deliuer thée to the officer, and then thou be cast into prison. I tel thée thou shalt not bée deliuered out thence, till thou shalt haue paied the vttermost farthing. The way wherin we must a­grée w ^t our aduersarie, is this life, y ^e end wherof is most vn­certaine: wherfore a spéedy agréement is needful. Our aduer­sarie [Page] is that partie that hath cause to charge vs with misdemea­nour towards him. The iudge is God himselfe, who being iust must néedes condemne vs to perpetuall prison in hell, because we haue not in the way of this life agréed with our aduersarie. And from thence we can neuer be deliuered, be­cause we can not there make any satisfaction to our aduer­sarie. The Popes pardons, his Masses, Trentalles, Obbets Anniuersaries, Chauntries, and the rest of Satisfactory de­uises, can help vs nothing at all in this case. God graunt his grace to vs and to all men, that professing the religion of Christ, we may, as it is séemely for Christians, be careful to doo as Christ hath taught, and agrée with our aduersarie quickly whiles we are with him in the way of this lyfe, and so escape that terrible iudgement that otherwise the righteous iudge must néedes pronounce and put in executi­on.

Matrimonie we honour, not as a Sacrament, but as an holy ordinaunce of God, instituted by God himselfe in Pa­radise, and in the time of mans innocencie, and with Saint Paule, Ephe, 5. Ephe, 5. we holde, that in it is represented vnto vs that misticall vnion that is betwixt Christ and his Church. And wée doo maruaile much, that the Popes Catholiques can holde this for a sacrament: and yet deny the vse of it to such amongst them as they doo account to be most holy. W [...] doo knowe, Hebr, 13. and confesse with S. Paule, that Mariage is ho­nourable amongst all men, and that the bedde of the maried persons is vndefiled. Yea, we knowe that no estate or cal­ling amongst men can be so holy, that mariage may bee thought to bée profane a thing for that estate or calling. Wée knowe also, that the holines of it is such, that the ho­lines of the most holy amongst men, can adde nothing to the holines thereof, nor yet the vnholines of the most vnho­ly, take any thing from the holines thereof. The most ho­nourable amongst men, doo not when they enter into that honourable estate, make it more honourable: neyther doo the most base and vyle in degrée amongest men (when they enter into it) make it more base and vile, by that vilenes or [Page 53] basenes that is in them.

We doo not therfore, denie the vse of it to any man. But we doo wishe, that all men that doo finde in themselues oc­casion to vse it: would duly consider wherefore it was or­dayned, and would vse it for the procreation of children to be brought vp in the feare and nurture of the Lord, and to the prayse of God: for the preseruation and kéeping of theyr bodyes vndefiled members of Christs body, and for the mu­tuall society, helpe and comfort, that maryed persons ought to haue, the one of the other.

Your extreame vnction, we doo not onely denie to bée a Sacrament because we finde in Histories, that Pope Foe­lix the fourth of that name, that occupied the place of the Papacie about, 525, yéeres after the incarnation of our Sa­uiour Christ, was the first that tooke order for the anoyn­ting of the bodyes of such as lay in dying, with oyle: But also because the manner of the vsing of it, is too too full of su­perstition. We allowe of a religious visiting of the sicke, according to the councell of S. Iames, chap. 5. And wee doo vnderstand by the annoynting with oyle that S. Iames spea­keth of, the applying of naturall remedies to the sicke per­sons, which beeing ioyned with prayer, must néedes bee the more effectuall, as by that place of S. Iames it may verie well be gathered. And thus much I haue thought méete to write concerning the Sacramentes which Christ hath in­stituted, and are now vsed in that Church wherof we Pro­testantes are: and haue béene vsed in that Church euer since they were first instituted by Christ himselfe. And because your sorte doo make accounte of fiue other Sacramentes, in déede: I haue written bréefely of them also.

The Catholique Church (whereof we Protestantes are members) hath from tyme to tyme had the hearing of mat­ters in controuesie, and so hath it still, so farre foorth as the same may appertaine vnto her to iudge of them. That is, where and when the parties that be at controuersie do sub­mit themselues to her iudgement. For what hath she to doo with them that be without? As S. Paule wrote to the Cor­rinthians, [Page] 1. Cor. 5. 1, Cor. 5. Such as are not of y ^e societie of the mem­bers of Christ, are not to be iudged by the church of Christ.

And as touching the orderly succession of Bishops: wee are able to shewe by the Histories of the Church, that our Church hath had aboue, 60. Bishops in Rome, successiuely one after another, whereof the greatest number were good men, and carefull to gouerne the flocke committed to their charge, as S. Paule wished y ^e Elders or Bishops of Eph. to doo Act. 20. But here the Offerer, must note, y ^t none of these was called or would be called vniuersal Bishops, or vniuersal heads, Acts, 20. of y ^e vniuersal church of Christ. They knew y ^t the charge that was committed vnto them in Roome and in y ^e Churches of y ^e prouince, was great enough for them, they sought for no more charge. But when any other Bishops dyd séeke to them for councell: they were readye to helpe them to the vttermost of theyr power, but none of them did claime any power or authority ouer the rest. The rest of the Bishoppes in Roome, that succéeded Gregorie the first: namely Boniface the third, and such as succéeded him, were Antichristian Bishops, and therefore wee refuse them as none of ours. Neither is it so necessarie a matter to haue so orderly a succession of Bishoppes in any one Cittie in the christian worlde, as in the first 600. hundreth yéeres after Christ, there was in Roome.

But because the cittie Roome was then (and had béene of long tyme before) the chéefe cittie of the whole world: the peoples that inhabited in other Citties and partes of the world, owing seruice to the state of Roome, had occasion to repaire thether, and therefore euen the christians that had theyr dwelling else where, had the Bishoppes, and other Church ministers that were in Roome, in greater estima­tion, then they had those men that were of the lyke calling, euen in the citties wherein they themselues had theyr a­boade and dwelling.

And hereof it might come that greter account was made of the succession of those Bishops that were Bishoppes of Roome, then of those that were in Millen, Constantinople, [Page 54] Ierusalem, Hippo, or in any other part of the whole world, But if this orderly succession of bishops that so great accoūt is made of were well weighed, it would not bee founde so certaine as thys Offerer and his fellowes, would faine haue it séeme to bée.

S, Austine (whose anthoritie is not to bee contemned) hauing occasion to make mention of this succession: placeth Linus next vnto Peter, and maketh no mention at all of Cletus, and so he maketh in this succession lesse by one, then the common account is. Some others doo suppose, that Li­nus and Cletus, were but Peters coadiutors, and not Bi­shops of Roome at all: For Peter him selfe sayd vnto Cle­ment, I giue vnto thée, the same power of binding and loo­sing that Christ left vnto me: and so he made Clement hys immediate successour. Yea there be some that doo thinke, (and I doo thinke y ^t they haue some good cause so to thinke) that Peter him selfe, was neuer Bishop of Roome.

But let the succession of Bishops in the first 600. yéeres, be euen such as this Offerer and his fellowes doo suppose it to be: yet y ^e succession that hath bene since the end of those first. 600, yeres: is not so currant as they do auouch it to be.

For it appeareth in Histories, that the seate of Roome hath béene voyde for the space of whole yéere togeather, yea for the space of two yéeres and more: and that there haue béene two Popes, yea thrée Popes at one time, where of one hath excommunicated the other, and no man was a­ble to say which of them shold by y ^e right successour of Peter.

I would gladly vnderstand by this Offerer and his fel­lowes, what manner of succession that was, when aboute the yéere of our Lord, 855. Ioane English, borne at Mensse, béeing a woman in sexe and nature, was made Pope, and continued so for the space of two yéeres. I thinke they will not say that this was an orderly succession.

To bée bréefe, the succession of the Romane Bishoppes, since the time of Bonifacius, 3. hath béene such as the succes­sion of high Préests was in y ^e kingdome of Israell, from the time of the falling away of the tenne kindreds from the [Page] house of Iuda, euen to the time wherein they were ca­ried away by the Assirians: and lyke the succession of high Préests amongst the Iewes from the first beginning of the Sects of the Phariseis and Saduces amongst them, euen to that time wherein that kingdome was vtterly ouer­throwne by the Romanes.

And as the right professours of the lawe of God in Isra­ell and Iuda (which vndoubtedly were many) had in al this tyme no succession of highe Préestes: so such as in these lat­ter 1000 yéeres haue béene the right Catholiques, haue had no succession of Bishops, but haue receiued theyr spirituall foode, at the hands of such pastors as God hath from time to time stirred vp, as he stirred vp Prophets in Iuda & Israel in those times wherof I haue spoken before: & as often as it hath pleased God to giue his Church libertie to make pub­lique profession of fayth and religion (as now for the space of 29. yéeres togeather, he hath doone in this realme of Eng­land) such as be members of the true Catholique Church, doo and haue doone (by the permission and commaundement, of our Prince, whom God hath appointed to gouerne vs) as it becommeth Catholike Christians to doo, in open prai­er, preaching, and administration of Sacramentes.

And to the ende that all thinges may bée doon orderly and as it beseemeth, we haue bishops & al other necessary mini­sters, orderly elected & admitted, to minister vnto vs y ^e word and to exercise publique prayer & necessarie discipline, suche as the higher powers vnder whome we liue, doo thinke méete to be exercised.

As for the vniformity of your solemne Ceremonies: that had not had so long continuance for the space of fif­téene hundreth yéeres, nor yet for the space of fifty yéeres. For by the confession of your holy father Pope Pius quintus the difference of ceremonies vsed euen in your holy Masse, was such before the tyme of your last generall Councell, which began at Trident. Anno. 1545. that it was thought méete by them to take order for the reformation thereof. But though it had béene as auncient as you would haue it. [Page 55] what great matter is there in it, to prooue thereby that your Church is the true Church of Christ: sith it is an easie matter for any sorte of men to agrée in outward and so­lemne Ceremonies, although the same bee neuer so super­stitious, vaine and foolish.

But here is a matter of greater waight; y ^t is the vnity of fayth that your Church hath had these 1500, yéeres last past continually. I haue already prooued that your Antichristi­an Church hath not had continuance so long by 600. yeres almost. And it shalbe an easie matter to prooue y ^t the fayth of your Church hath in y ^e time that it hath had continuance, varied very often, in some poyntes of greatest wayght, as you doo account of them. The generall councell of Basill, be­léeued that theyr authority was aboue the authority of the Pope, and that they might depose hym, and therefore they dyd depose Eugenius that then was Pope, and choose an o­ther in his place. And the same Eugenius, bolding a Coun­cell at Farrary, beléeued that he had authority to excommu­cate the generall councell. And this article was long doub­ted of. Whether the Pope, or the generall counsell should haue the supreme authoritie. And about the wordes of con­secration: I thinke your Church is not yet agréede, whe­ther the vertue [...]hat turneth the substaunce, doo lye in the verbe Est, or in the sillable, vm. And whether the substance of breade and wyne bée turned into the substaunce of the body and bloode of Christ, or whether that substaunce de­parting and giuing place, the body and blood of Christ, doo occupie the place thereof vnder the qualities of bread and wine. And whether the mouse that eateth the consecrated rake, doo eate the bodie of Christ or no. In these high poyn­tes of religion, and in dyuers other of lyke sorte: the vnitie of your fayth hath béene, and styll is sore shaken. But I perceyue that which followeth in thys conclusion of thys offer: that the fayth whych you speake of is that fayth or beleefe that you haue in that Church of yours which you call Catholique. You neuer trouble your selfe with the waighting and examining of matters of beléefe: for you [Page] confesse that you must of necessitie beléeue the Church. So that your determination is to beléeue whatsoeuer, that Church hath or shall determine, and commaund you to be­léeue, although you knowe not what that Church either hath or shall determine. Thus your late prosilite. Frier Iohn Frauncis of Nigeon in Fraunce, dyd in his letters that he wrote to his mother instruct her to beléeue.

But here riseth a doubte, whether this Church be the general councell, the colledge of Cardinalles, or the Popes holines alone. If it bee the generall councell: what shifte would you haue made when two generall councelles: were holden at one tyme, and decréede contrarie, the one to the other, the one holden at Basill, and the other at Farrarie? If it be the colledge of Cardinalles: which way would you haue turned your selfe, when there were thrée Popes at one tyme, and each Pope had his colledge of Cardinalles? If it bée the Pope him selfe: then tell mée vpon whome you would haue hanged your fayth, when there was no Pope for the space of two yéeres togeather, and when there were three Popes at one tyme, and when haue­ing but one Pope, the same was an Arrian or Saddu­sey, or had giuen hym selfe to the Deuill that hee myght bée made Pope?

I leaue this to your discretion, or to the discretion of some one of your sorte that shall take in hand to replye to this aunswer that I make to these your offers.

You saye, that your Church hath in her selfe all ho­lie functions of the spirite: as workinge of miracles, re­mission of sinnes, and the true sence and interpretation of Gods worde. A straunge manner of ennumeration of partes. All the holie functions of the spyrite are innume­rable, and therefore they are commonlie sayd to bée seuen: by which number béeing a perfecte number, an infinite multitude is commonly signified. But you set downe thrée for all. The working of miracles is one of those holye functions that you speake of. You meane (I am sure) of those miracles that haue béene and are wrought in your [Page 56] places of Pilgrimage, and by the rotten reliques of your Sayntes, whereof I haue heard great boast, and some ex­perience I haue séene in England. The holy mayd of Kent with her confederates, wrought manie myracles in the dayes of King Henrie the eyght, as in our Chronicles is to bée séene: but in the ende she was founde to bée an ar­rante Whore, and so was the holie made of Lemster, that was nothing inferiour to the other in working of myracles. The holy Roode of Bostone, the holie Roode of Boxley, the holie Roode of Chester, the holie Roode of Northamton, and the holie Roode at the North doore of Paules Church, with the holy Roode, in Roode Lane in London, were not behinde the rest in working miracles, by y ^e helpe of knaues that had the kéeping of them. I might speake of the holy blood at Hailes which was sayd to bee a portion of the bloode of Christ, Saint Thomas of Canter­burie, S. Thomas of Hereford, S. William of Mawuerne, S. Ioseph of Shaftesburie, and holy King Henrie of Wind­sore, King Kenelme of Cowbadge, S. Hugh of Lincolne, and S. Robert of Naseborowe, and a number of blessed La­dies, to many to bée rehearsed by name. The knauerie that was practized in these places is so well knowen in Eng­land that your miracles can haue no credite amongst such English men as haue not Roomish hartes.

Yea, and our sauiour Christ hath forewarned vs, Math, 24. Math, 24, That in these latter dayes, many false Christs and false prophets shal arise, & shal shew great signes & wōders in so much y ^t if it were possible y ^t very elect shold be brought into error. But behold (saith our sauiour) I haue told you before hand, &c. The moe miracles you doo brag of, y ^e greater cause we haue to suspect you, for these are not y ^e daies wherin credit is to be giuen to miracles, but wherin workers of won­ders are to be had in suspition. Your Church hath (you say) remission of sins. In déed, y ^e true catholique church of Christ hath so: but not according to your meaning as I think. The true catholique church) whereof we are members) hath re­mission of sins, in Christ, and by his mediation. And therfore [Page] in y ^e confession of our faith, we say, we beléeue the remission of sins. But (as I think) your meaning is y ^t your church hath power to forgiue sins. And hereupon you ground your in­gendulces & pardons, for many yéeres & many Lentes, and in diuers considerations plenary forgiuenes, A paena & a culpa. Both from the payne that the faulte hath deserued, and from the fault it selfe also. This remission of Sinnes your Pope bestoweth at hys pleasure: but neuer for naught But whether he doo giue or sell this remission of sinnes: he dooth in taking vpon himselfe to forgiue sinnes, shewe him selfe to bée that man of sinne that S. Paule wrote of the 2. Thessal, 2. 2, Thessa, 2 Who sitting in the temple of God boasteth hym­selfe to bée God. For who can forgiue sinnes but God one­lie. Marci, 2. Marci, 2,

Wée doo know and confesse, that our sauiour Christ hath giuen powre to his church, both to remit and to retaine sinnes, and that powre dooth our Catholike church exercise, by certifying the penitent sinners (by the scriptures) that their sinnes vnfainedly repented, be vndoubtedly pardoned through Christ, in whom they must belieue assuredly, that shalbe capable of this remission of sinnes. But our Catho­like church dooth not make sale of this remission of sinnes, as your popish Catholike Church dooth. And our Catho­like church hath powre to retaine the sinnes of such sin­ners as shée findeth obstinate and impenitent, by certifying them by the scriptures, that except they shall repent vnfay­nedly, and belieue the gospell, (that is, the glad tydings of frée pardon of all their sinnes in and by Christ) their sinnes shall neuer bee forgiuen. The scriptures are the keyes that Christ gaue vnto Peter, and in him to his whole church: as S. Augustine hath written in his fiftith treatise vpon Ioh. Si hoc ergo in Ecclesia fit, August, in Io. tract, 50. Petrus quando claues accepit, Ecclesi­am sanctam significauit. If this thing be done in the church, then when Peter did receiue the keyes, hee did signifie the holy Church. So that the power of loosing and binding, belonged not to Peter alone, but to him togither with the rest of the Apostles, wherefore, the same powre dooth not [Page 57] now belonge to any one person alone in the Church, but to the whole Church togither.

You say further that your church hath the true sense & interpretation of the woorde of God, so that no sense or in­terpretation of Gods woorde, may bee taken for true, but that which is set down by your church, although that which is set downe by your church shalbe prooued to bee directly contrarie to the text of Gods woord it selfe.

In your generall counseil holden at Trident, in the yéere 1563. and in y ^e tewenty & fifth Session thereof: your church hath anathematized as many as shall hold or teach, that the Images of Christ, of the virgine his mother, and of other saintes, be not very profitable for Christians, and that they are not to bee worshipped. Their decrée concerning this matter beginneth thus. Jmagines porro Chrsti, &c. That is, The holy Synode dooth commaunde, that the Images of Christ, and of the virgin, the mother of God, and of other saints, to be had and retained, especially in churches, & that due honor and worship bée giuen vnto them. This is the sense and interpretation that your Catholike church hath set downe in that decrée, concerning the meaning of these sentences written in the woord of God. Cursed is that man or woman, that shall make a carued or molten Image (that the Lord abhorreth the worke of the hands of Craftesmen) and shall set it in a secret place. Deut. 27. Deut. 27. Againe, in E­say. Cap. 44. Quis formauit Deum, &c. Who hath fashio­ned a God, and hath made a carued Image, Esay 44. Exod. 20. that is good for nothing? And againe, Exod. 20. Non facies tibi scuptile, &c. Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image, nor the likenes of any thing that is in heauen aboue, or in the earth beneath, nor in the water vnder the earth. Thou shalt not worship nor serue them, &c. Yea, and S. Paule in his second Epistle to the Corinthes. 2. Cor. 6. 2. Cor. 6. What a­greement is there betwixt the temple of God and Images? directly, contrary to the sentences of scripture: your holy mother, the Catholike church, as you doo terme hir, but in very déede, the church of Antichrist: hath in that generall [Page] counsell, decréed that the Images of Christ, of the Virgin (the mother of God) and of other saintes, must be had and retayned, especially in churches, and that their due honour and reuerence must bée giuen vnto them.

Much more might bee noted out of your generall coun­selles, where by it might bee made most manifest & plaine, that there was neuer any sorte of Heretikes, that swarued further from the true sense and interpretation of the word of God, euen in y ^e chiefest points of religion, then that Sy­nagogue of Satan, your Antichristian Catholike church, hath doone for the space of these 1000. yéeres now last past (almost) and dooth still.

But your church is beautified with diuersity of states commended by Christ, as with Martyrs, with Confessors, holy Virgins and such other. If a man should require you to shew your Martyrologie, and to shew the causes where­fore these Martyrs of yours suffered: it would bee hard for you to make proofe, that any one of those that you doo ac­count for Martyrs, did suffer for any other then for Anti­christ. If you shall begin with Thomas Becket, the best that you can say for him, is that hée died for the liberties of the Church. And what were those liberties? That all cler­gie men should be exempted from y ^e powre of their princes. So that if a clergie man, should cōmit any maner of felo­nie, murther, or Treason, or any other capitall crime: none of the princes officers might deale with him, to execute the penalty of the lawe vpon him, as vpon a felon, murderer, or Traytor: but he must be punished by this Ordinarie, &c. And what was this other, then to dye for Antichrist, who contrary to Christs doctrine, vsurpeth authoritie ouer prin­ces, and wil not suffer any of his to be in subiection to prin­ces, and to princes lawes?

To bee briefe, Bishop Fyshar, Sir Thomas Moore, the Monkes of the charter house, with all the rest of the Popes friends that suffered in the daies of King Henry the eight: and Edmond Campion with his companie, and the rest that haue bene executed in the time of the raigne of our [Page 58] Soueraigne that now is: for what cause haue they suffe­red? was it not for that they affirmed that the Popes ho­lines hath the supreme power in this realme, & that prin­ces haue not the highest power vpon earth, ouer such as be their subiectes? This cause can not bee Christs cause: for Christ did in his humaine nature, submit him selfe to the Emperor, in that hee him selfe did pay tribute to the Em­peror, in token of subiection. Mat. 17. Mat, 17. S. Peter willeth all christians to submit them selues to all estates of men, euen for the Lords sake, whether it be to the king, as to him that hath the preheminence, or to the Dukes or captaines, as to men whom the Lord hath sent for the punishment of euill dooers, but for the praise of such as bée good, for so is the will of God, that Christians should by well dooing stop the igno­raunce of foolish men, &c. 1. Pet. 2. 1, Peter, 2. S. Paule also wrote thus to the Romaines. Omnis anima potestatibus sublimioribus sub­dita sit, &c. Let euery soule be subiect to the higher pow­ers, &c. Rom. 13. Rom. 13. Chrysostome expounding these woords of S. Paule, saith thus. Etiam si Apostolus sis, si Euangelista, si Propheta, siue quisquis tandem fueris, &c. Although thou be an Apostle, if thou bée an Euangelist, if thou be a Prophet, and to conclude, who, or what so euer thou béest. For (saith Chrysostome) this subiection dooth not subuert godlinesse. And hée saith not simply, hée must obay, but hée saith, Chrysost. in Rom. 13. subdita sit. It must bée in subiection. By these woords of Chryso­stome, it appeereth what maner of Martyrs they are, that haue died for the mainetenaunce of your Popes supreme powre ouer all Christians vpon earth. If Chrysostome were now liuing, and would maintaine this that hee hath written: your Pope would make him a Martyr in déed, if hée might catch him, as hee hath, and still dooth make Mar­tyrs of all such as hée hath and can catch, that bee of one minde with Chrysostome.

Your Confessors are euen such as your Martyrs: and so are your Virgins, with the rest that you meane of, when you say, and such other.

Now let the Protestant prooue (say you) that this is [Page] not the true Church, that we are not bound to obay and be­lieue this Church and none other, in all controuersies and doubts, &c.

The Protestant hath already prooued y ^t the church that you meane of (which is the Romaine Antichristian church) is not the true Church of Christ, and that it hath not in it those things that you doo so much brag of. It hath not con­tinuance (as yet) for the space of 1000. yéeres. It hath not, neither dooth it exercise preaching, to the conuersion of na­tions to the obedience of the gospell: but to the obedience of Antichristian doctrine. It hath not had, neither hath it, the right administration of the sacraments, but with such mix­ture of humaine diuises as is vnséemely in the Church of Christ. It hath not had, neither hath it any such orderly suc­cession of bishops, as you brag of: neither any such vnifor­mitie of solemne Ceremonies. It hath not had at any time, neither hath it now such vnitie of faith as you speake of, nor the holy functions of the spirite: as working of Mira­cles, remission of sinnes, nor the true sense and interpreta­tion of the woord of God. Neither is it beautified with that diuersitie of states that you speake of: as Martyrs, Confes­sors, and Virgins, & such other: wherefore the Protestant concludeth: that there is no cause why he should obay and belieue that church of yours, no more is there that you should not yeelde and recant.

The Twentith offer.

Offerer.

20 Twentith, Moreouer, let the learned Protestant proue, that the true and Catholike church of Christ, may at any time bee voide of Gods spirit (which he hath promised to be with his Church for euer) saying: Et ego rogabo patrem, et alium paracletum dabit vobis, Iohn. 14. vt maneat vobiscum in aeternū, or falsly to interpret any sentence of holy scripture, or to induce any erroure among the people, or approoue vnpro­fitable [Page 59] and hurtfull vsages amonge the Christians, or that shee suffereth any damnable abuse in her religion, with­out open repredhension thereof: Let the learned Protestant prooue any of these points, and I will then yeelde and re­cant, and not before.

Crowley.

The true Catholique church of Christ in déed, is neuer voyde of Gods spirite. Yea, there is not one member of that church, which hath not that spirite dwelling in it, in some measure. For thus the Apostle Paule hath written to the Romaines. Si quis autem spiritum Christi non habet, hie non est eius. If there be any that hath not y ^e spirite of Christ, the same belongeth not to him. Rom. 8. Rom. 8, I doo confesse there­fore, y ^t the true Catholique church of Christ, is neuer voide of Gods spirit. But according to the words that this Offe­rer hath cited out of the 14. cha. of Iohn: Iohn, 14, our sauiour Christ hath sent another comforter, which is y ^e holy spirit of God, to be with his Church for euer. But what maketh this for M. Offerers purpose? Hee must prooue that the church of Rome, being such as now it is, & hath bin, for the space of a thousand yéeres (almost) is that true Catholique church of Christ: and then these pointes will serue him to some pur­pose: otherwise, they doo make flatly against him.

Taking your church to bee the true Catholike church of Christ: you offer to yéelde and recant, if the Protestant can prooue that your church hath fasly interpreted any one sentence of the holy scripture. The Protestant hath alrea­in his answere to your 19. offer, sufficiently prooued, that your whole church hath in the 25. session of your Triden­tine counsell, falsly interpreted (or rather flatly denied) mo then one, two, or thrée sentences of the holy scriptures, as to the indifferent Reader it may there most euidently ap­eere: wherefore wée doo looke for the performance of your promise in yéelding and recanting.

That your church hath induced, & doth still induce errors amongst the people, hath approued and doth still approoue, [Page] [...] [Page 59] [...] [Page] vnprofitable and hurtfull vsages amongst Christians, hath suffered and dooth still suffer, damnable abuses in religion, without open reprehention: is more manifest then that which lyeth open in the cleare sunne light. Wherefore the Protestant néedeth not to spend any time in the proofe ther­of. It may suffice to put y ^e reader in minde of those shame­lesse errors that your church hath taught, & dooth still teach and maintaine, concerning the inuocation of Angelles, and Saints, the praying for the deade, the worthynesse of mens works, and the satisfying to God for sinnes commit­ted against his maiestie. And for your vnprofitable and hurtfull vsages: it were enough, to will the reader to re­member your gadding on Pilgrimage, your visiting, kis­sing and worshipping of Reliques, and your burning of Lights before blinde Stockes, and Stones, in the open day and sunne light. And for your damnable abuses, there née­deth no more, but to wish the reader to consider of your ab­hominable Masse, which you make a sacrifice for the sinnes both of the quick and of the deade, which being doone, I sée no reason why, the readers may not cry out & say vnto this Offerer and his fellowes: yéelde and recant for shame.

The one and twenty Offer.

Offerer.

21 One and twentie. If vnity in faith, austerity of lyfe, sharp discipline, great penance, much fastings, large almes, godly deuotion, obedience to higher powers, grauitie, and true charitie, bee not more euidently exercised and vsed in our cōmon knowne Catholike church, then in the pro­testants congregation: and contrarywise, if discord in re­ligion, licentiousnes in liuing, contempt of discipline, re­iecting of penaunce, lothsomnesse of fasting, lacke of zeale and deuotion, disobedience to magistrates, Sacrilege, Apo­stacie, breaking of vowes, vnlawfull lusts, wantonnes in all lyfe and maners, doo not agree better, and more cleare to the Protestants, then to the Catholikes, being the plaine [Page 60] signes and fruites of a false church, Then will I recant, and not before.

Crowley.

How well the vnitie of the true Christian faith is ex­ercised in your commonly knowne Catholike church (that is your Antichristian church) the reader may sée in y ^e which the protestant hath written in answering the 14. Offer. As for your austeritie of life, your sharpnes of discipline, your greatnes of penance, your largenes of almes, & godlines of deuotion: may very well be packed vp in a pocket of Hypo­crisie, & superstition, and sent to your holy father the Popes holines, the next new yéere, for a new yéeres gift. And as for your obedience to higher powers, your grauitie & true charitie: may right well be séene in Pope Constantine the first, who admitted the Emperor Iustinian, to the kissing of his foote: about y ^e yéere of our Lord, 710. And in Pope Gre­gorie the second, who caused y ^e subiects of Leo the Emperor to breake out in open rebellion against their liege Lord the Emperor, bicause he had taken Images out of churches. A­bout the yéere of our Lord, 730. In Pope Steuen the 2, who suffred him selfe to bée borne into y ^e church called Laterane, vpon mens shoulders, whereby hée gaue occasion to his suc­cessors to be so carried, after the maner of Heathen princes: About the yéere of our Lord, 755. In Leo the third, who being accused before the Emperor Charles the great: suffe­red the bishops that then were present, to answere y ^e Em­peror (when he required them to say their mindes, concer­ning the crimes that were laide to his charge) saying thus. The Apostles seat, which is the heade of other seates ought not to be iudged of any man, especially being a lay man. A­bout the yéere of our Lord, 800. In Pope Leo the 4. also, who hauing obtained a victorie against the Sarasens: did offer his owne féete to bee kissed of the people. About the yéere, 850. In Pope Ioane, who being a woman in mans apparell, was Pope for the space of two yéeres, and died in trauell of chylde, as shee was going in Procession towards Laterane church in Rome. About the yéere of our Lord, 855. [Page] In Pope Steuen the sixt, who through the hatred that hee bare to Formosus his predisessor, did condemne him and all his acts or ordinaunces. Yea, and hée reuenged himselfe vp­on the deade body of Formosus, which déed grew into a cu­stome, from thence foorth. This was about the yéere of our Lord, 898. In Pope Sergius the third also, who bearing a pryuate grudge towards the same Formosus: did not only abrogagate all the lawes that had bin made by him, but he did also cause his deade body to be taken out of the graue, wherein Pope Steuen the sixt had caused him to bee buried amongst the common people, and his head and thrée of his fingers to be cut of, and his headlesse body to be cast into y ^e riuer Tiber. About the yéere of our Lord, 910. An exam­ple of true charitie in these two Popes. Another exam­ple of true loue in a Deacon, y ^e assisting Pope Victor the se­cond, at his Masse, did put poyson into his Challice, & so dis­patched him, About the yeere of our Lord, 1055. In Pope Gregorie the seuenth, wée sée a notable example of obedy­ence to the higher powers. For, about the yéere of our Lord 1080. hée excommunicated the Emperor Henry the 4. and absolued all his subiects from their oth of obedience to him. In Pope Victor the third, there is to bée séene a notable ex­ample of true loue or charitie, in that person that put poy­son into his Challice, & so dispatced him, about the yéere of our Lord, 1090. Alexander the third, did vse Lewes king of France, and Henry king of England, as his Horskéepers: appoynting the one of them to go one foote by his Horsses head on the right side, and the other on the left, each of them holding the raigne of his Bridle. About the yeere of our Lord, 1160. A singuler example of obedience to the hygher powers. Gregorie the 8. did decrée, that bishops should bee preferred before Princes in degree, about the yeere of our Lord, 1190. And Pope Innocent the thirde, is reported to haue sayd thus, in his brauerie, against Phillip, whom y ^e se­culer Princes had chosen to be Emperor. Let the Pope take the kingly Diademe from Phillip: or els let Philip take y ^e Apostolike insigne from y ^e Pope. Who would not take this [Page 61] man to bee a singuler example of obedience to the higher powers? Yea, in y ^e decretals y ^t this Innocent hath set forth, it is decreed, that the Pope ought to haue the correcting of the Princes of the earth, and that hee is Emperor whom y ^e Pope dooth crowne. This was doone, about the yeere of our Lord, 1200. Pope Gregorie the ninth, did promise e­uerlasting life to as many as would serue in y ^e field against Frederike, then Emperor. About y ^e yeere of our Lord, 1230. And when this Emperor was reconciled to the Popes fa­uour againe: hee did his penance, which was to bring into the treasurie of the church (that is the Popes Coffers) 120000. ownces of golde. And yet after all this, the same Pope Gregorie, did excommunicate the same Emperor a­gaine, and holding a counsell with his Cardinalles, hee did depriue him of his Empire, & caused the Crosse to be prea­ched against him. Which was to incite and to stirre vp all men to make warre against him, as against the greatest e­nimy of Christian religion. Pope Innocent the fourth, did by a firme decrée make it lawful for the Pope to depose the Emperor. About the yeere of our Lord, 1250. Pope Mar­tine the fourth, excommunicated th' Emperor and the king of Arragon, and made warre against the sayd king of Arra­gon. About the yeere of our Lord, 1280. Pope Bonifaci­us 8. in a great glorie, shewed him selfe twice. First in his pontificalibus, granting large pardons to the people: and on the next day, in the imperiall robes, hauing a naked sworde carried before him. And as hée sate in his maiestie, hée cri­ed with a lowde voyce, saying, Ecce duo gladij hic. Behold, héere are two swords. This was about the yeere, 1300. A Frier of the Order of the popish preachers, did poyson Henry the seuenth Emperor, by deliuering vnto him a consecrated hoste (as they terme it) wherein hee had put a stronge poyson, which dispatched him. About the yéere, 1310. Pope Clement the sixt, hauing excommunicated Lewes the Emperor, and all the Princes and bishops that tooke parte with him: sayd that now th' Empire was fallen vnto him: and therefore he placed captaines in y ^e cities of Italy. This [Page] was about the yeere, 1340. Pope Vrbane the sixt, in hatred toward Clement the 7. whom the Frenchmen had chosen to be Pope, tooke fiue Cardinalles, and lapped them in one sacke and drowned them. This was doone about the yéere 1380. A singular example of true charitie. Yea, and a sin­gular example of obedience, is to be seene in Alexander the third (of whom I spake before) in that hee admitting the Emperor Frederike, surnamed Barbarossa, to the kissing of his foote, did set his foote in the Emperors neck, pronoun­cing these woords of the Psalme. 91. Super aspidem, &c. Vp­on the Adder and Basiliske shalt thou walk, and thou shalt stamp vpon the Lyon & the Dragon. This was done about the yeere, 1170. And Celestinus the fourth, when he crow­ned the Emperor Henry the fift, sonne to the foresaid Fre­derike: did set the Emperiall crowne vpon the head of the Emperor with his feete, and did topple it of againe with one of his féete, in token, that as hee had powre to make an Emperor, so hée had powre to depose him againe.

Héere M. Offerer may sée a number of examples, of o­bedience to the higher powers, of great grauitie, & of true charitie, euen in such as haue bin the chiefe in his Catho­like church: if hée can shew mee but one example, amon­gest them that haue bin of y ^e protestants Catholike church, like vnto these manifolde examples of commaunding, con­trouling, excommunicating, persecuting, and deposing of y ^e higher powers, and triumphing ouer them: then will I re­cant the protestants Catholike religion, and professe Po­perie, as this Offerer dooth, and not before.

But now, on the contrarie (saith this Offerer) if dis­cord in religion, licentiousnes in liuing, contempt of disci­pline, reiecting of penaunce, lothsomnes of fasting, lacke of zeale and deuotion, disobedience to maiestrates, sacryledge, Apostacie, breaking of vowes, vnlawfull lusts, and wan­tonnes in all life and maners, doo not agree better, & more cleere to the protestants, then to the Catholique, being the plaine signes & fraits of a false church, then will I recant, and not before.

As touching discord in religion, the Offerer may think him selfe to bee sufficiently answered in that which I haue said to the fiftéenth Offer. The rest that hée rehearseth as fal [...] agréeing to the protestantes religion: are not at all a­gréeable to that religion, that the Protestants doo professe. For wée say as S. Iames hath written. Iacob. 1. Iacob. 1. If any man doo think him selfe to bee religious, and yet refraineth not his owne tounge, but suffreth his owne heart to go a stray that mans religion is vayne. This is the religion, that is pure and vndefiled before God and the father: for a man to visite the fatherlesse & widowes in their trouble, & to kéepe him selfe vnspotted of the world.

Yea, wee holde (as saint Paule teacheth. Coloss. 3. Coloss. 3.) that Christians, being risen againe togither with Christ, should seeke those thinges that are aboue where Christ is at the right hand of God: and not things that are héere on earth. Yea, an [...] (as the same S. Paule wrote to the Phillip. 3. Philip, 3.) that Christians should haue their conuersation in heauen & not vpon earth: so that although our bodies must be heere for a while, yet our mindes must be setled in heauen, frō whence wée looke for a Sauiour, euen the Lord Iesus, who by that mighty working whereby he is able to subdue all thing to him selfe, shall transforme, alter, and change our vile bodies and make them like vnto his owne glorious body. Yea, and wée doo holde (as S. Paule taught the Romaines, Cap. 6. Rom. 6, that such as are baptized, are baptized to dye, and to bee bu­ried with Christ, vnto sinne, & to be risen againe with him, vnto righteousnes of life. So that as naturally, wée are en­clined to make all our partes, instruments or tooles of vn­righteousnes, procéeding from one vnrighteousnes to ano­ther: euen so, being baptized, our duetie is to endeuour to make our bodies and all our partes, instruments of righte­ousnes, proceeding from one righteousnes to another. Yea, and (as hee writeth in the 12. Chap.) we hold that our due­ty is to make our bodies a sacrifice to God, that is (as I take it) the most acceptable seruice that wee can doo [Page] vnto God. Rom. 12. Rom. 13. Yea, and (as he writeth it the 13. Chap.) we hold that wee may make no prouision for the flesh, to satisfie the lusts thereof. But (as he writeth, 1. Tim. 6. 1. Tim. 6.) hauing meats and drink, and cloth, & necessarie house harbor, wée be there with contented. Yea, we doo hold (as S. Peter hath taught, 1. Pet. 2. 1, Peter, 2.) that our dutie is to abstaine from fleshly lusts that fight against the soule, and by honest and good conuersation, to stop the mouthes of malicious speakers, & if it be possible to winne them to ioyne with vs in religion, that wee may glorifie God togither, Now let the indifferent reader iudge howe those foule vices y ^t you doo charge our religion with: doo agrée, with this our profession.

It maye, that there be some (and I confesse that there bee a great number to many amongst vs) which are not of vs, but doo only beare the name of protestant Catholiques, and are in déede of no religion. And these are such as you speake of, & the vices y ^t you name, doo very well agree vnto thē. And I pray you, hath your popish Catholike church, at any time lacked a good roūd number of such maner of men?

When your Pope (who is the head of your church) was such a one as Platina reporteth Iohn the 12. to be, Monstrū hominis, A monster amongst men: and as Volateran saith, Sceleratum hominem, A man giuen ouer to all wickednes, & that he was slaine being taken in adultery. And as the same Platina and Volateran doe say of Syluester the second, that be gaue himselfe to the deuill that he might be made Pope, and that he was made Pope in déede, and did gouerne your church foure yeeres togither.

And your Pope Benedictus the ninth, of whom Vola­teran saith: that hee was Ʋir plane probrosus & infamis. A man altogither worthy of reproches, and euill reports, and infamous. And Platina saith that after his death hee was séene in an horrible shape, and that hee said thus. Iusto Dei iudicio damnatus sum, quia sine lege vixi, I am damned, euen by the iust iudgement of God: bicause I liued without law. These gouerned your church, one of them nine yeeres, an­other, foure yeeres: and the third, fifteene yeeres.

Now, if that did saying bee true (as in very déede it is alwaies founde to true) Regis ad exemplum totus componitur orbis, the whole world doo frame them selues after the ex­ample of the Ruler: how could it otherwise bée, but that in the daies wherein those men ruled your church, you had great plenty of such men as they were?

But you will say, this is not to be ascribed to the religi­on: but to the persons that professed the religion. Well then I hope you will be contented that we doo say, that the falts wherewith you doo charge our religion: are the falts of such persons as professing our religion, be of no religion, and are not to be imputed to our religion, but to those irre­ligious persons.

Wee wish after, and seeke for concord in true Catholike religion, wée detest and abhorre licentiousnes of life. Wée [...]raue and beg, both of God and of men, the reuiuing of that discipline that God him selfe commaunded to bee exercised by his people. Wée embrace true and vnfained repentance, which is (as Dauid teacheth, Psal. 34. Psalm. 34.) to turne away from euill, and to doo the thing that is good. We loue and practize true fasting: such as Esay the prophet requireth in the peo­ple of God. Esay. 58. Esay, 58. which consisteth in mercifull dealinge towards such as bee in our daunger, and in mercifull relie­uing of such as doo lake thinges necessarie that wee are able to help them to. Wée call vpon God for encrease of zeale & deuotion grounded vpon knowledge. Wée obay all Magi­strats in the Lord, & for the Lord. But how standeth your religion with obedience to magistrats: when you dare as­sure them of euerlasting life, that will enterprize to mur­ther a prince, as (bisides your practizes of olde, whereof wée reade in histories) you did of late, assure him that murthe­red the Prince of Orendge, and such as should haue mur­thered our soueraigne Lady, that now raigneth ouer vs? Yea, that Bull that Felton fixed to the bishop of Londons gate, dooth make it manifest, what obedience men of your minde, doo vse to shew vnto Magistrats. Sacriledge wée doo detest: but you haue taught our Patrons & Princes to rob [Page] churches and parishes of tythes, and so consequently of the foode of the soule by due administration of the woord and sacraments, and of the relife of the poore, by liberall hospi­talitie.

Apostacie, wée leaue to men of your sort which are fal­len away from the auncient, true, and Apostolike catholike church of Christ: and doo obstinatly stand in defence of that schimne that you are fallen into, notwithstanding that your falling away is made as manifest vnto all men, as those things are that lie open in the cleare light of the day. We are carefull to kéepe and performe that vowe that was made in our names when wée were baptized: but if any of vs haue made an vnlawfull, or a rash vow, the performance whereof should tend to y ^e dishonoring or displeasing of God any way: wée doo earnestly repent that euer we made such a vow, choosing rather to stand to the mercie of God in not performing such a rash and wicked vow, then to commit & greater wickednes in the perfourming thereof, as Herod & did in cutting of the head of Iohn Baptist. Math. 14. Mat, 14.

As for vnlawfull lusts, and wantonnes of lyfe & ma­ners, wée doo flée from, as it is seemely for Christians. Wée haue learned to possesse our vessells (that is our bodies) in holines and in honor. Which in déede many of vs coulde not doo, without that remedie that God him selfe hath ap­pointed, which is honorable and holy Matrimony. Heb. 13. Hebr, 13. Such therfore amongst vs, as otherwise can not haue chast mindes in chaste bodies, doo choose to liue with chaste wiues in chaste marriage: for we haue learned that it is better to marrie then to burne. 1. Cor. 7. 1. Cor. 7. And wée know what saint Paule hath written to the Ephes. concerning the dealing of some of your sort. Ephes. 5. Ephe, 5. It is a shame euen to speake of those things that they doo in secret.

If the indifferent reader will not say, that the vices that you haue charged our profession and religion with, doo more clearely agrée to the popish Catholikes, then to the protestants, & bee in them plaine signes and fruites of false religion: then will I recant and not before.

The two and twenty Offer.

Offerer.

Two and twenty. Let the learned proue vnto 22 mee, that their church and congregation might rightly bee called Catholike, which for the space of a thousand yeeres togither, was so particuler, that no man coulde name any certaine place where their church was, or that it might bee called holy, which had for so longe time and space ney­ther the doctrine of Christes gospell taught in it, neyther baptisme, nor any other sacrament of Christ vsed to san­ctifie them withall, or that it could bee called one church, which as soone as it grew vp, & shewed selfe to the world, was deuided into so many and sundry sectes of Lutherans, Zuinglians, Iliricans, Caluinists, Svvenfeldians, Anabaptists, and such other: or that it might bee called Apostolike, which could neuer make an account by orderly succession and discent, from any one of Christ his Apostles, or any o­ther Apostolike man, or that their secret, hid, & vnknowne congregation was euer of that maiesty or authority, that it had at any one time or season, the true obedyence of all christian nations, or that it was euer of that maiesty or authority, that it had at any one time or season, the true obedyence of all christian nations, or that it was euer able to assemble & ga­ther vniuersall and generall counselles of all nations and Christian people, or to exercise any discipline or correcti­on vpon offenders throughout all kingdomes and regions professing Christ: or that these titles following properly applied by the scriptures and doctors to the true church of Christ, could euer bee challenged by any right to their hyd and vnknowne congregation, I meane these titles: namely, Corpus Christi, the body of Christ: Sponsa Christi, the spouse of Christ, Amica Christi, the louer of Christ, Vnice dilecta Christo, dearely beloued of Christ, Columba speciosa, the beautifull Doue, Domus Dei, the house of God, Colum­na veritatis, the Piller of truth, Ciuitas Dei, the city of God, Ciuitas super montem posita, a city set vpon an hill, Fons signatus, a Spring or Fountaine, surely signed and sealed, [Page] Sponsa agni, the spouse of the Lambe, Mulier amicta so­le, a woman clothed wyth the Sunne, Habitatio fratrum inuicem, a dwelling of bretheren all togither, Mont Dei, the hill of God, Sacra Anchora, the holy Anchor: Vinea Domini, our Lordes Vyneyarde: Terra viuentium, the Lande of the lyuinge: Ecclesia magna, the great and mightie Church: Arca Noe, Noes Arke: Vna, sancta, Ca­tholica, & Apostolic [...] Ecclesia, one, Holy, Catholique and Apostolike Church: Domus pacis, the house of peace: Do­mus refugij, the house of refuge: Domus veritatis, the house of trueth: Societas Sanctorum, the fellowship of holy Saints: Nutrix Christianorum, the Norishe of the Chri­stians: Ʋxor de latere Christi, the Spouse out of Christ his side, sicut Eua de latere Adam, like as Eue was out of the side of Adam. Let the learned Protestant make proofe, that these most exellent properties, and peculier denomi­nations and callinges may possibly agree to their hid and vnknowne congregations and priuate societies, or to any other knowne societie of the whole worlde, but onely to the holy societie, most blessed companie and fellowship of the common knowne Catholique church of Christ, and I will then relent, yeelde, and recant, and not before.

Crowley.

This Offer may bee diuided into three partes. In the first the Offerer requireth a proofe of that which is alrea­dy prooued in the answere to the seuententh Offer. Where­fore I refer y ^t reader to that which is written there, where hée shall finde that which may satisfie him in that which the Popish Offerer requireth the learne Protestant to prooue first. In the second part, he requireth y ^e Protestant to prooue that the church whereof be is, hath had at some one time or other, such powre and authority ouer the whole Christian world, as the Romish Catholike Antichristian church, hath vsurped and exercised and doth still claime & exercise, where it may bée suffred. To this I doo say, on the behalfe of y ^t lear­ned [Page 65] Protestant: that Christ him selfe did neuer exercise such authoritie ouer kingdomes and Nations, as the Anti­christian Popish church hath exercised, and dooth still exer­cise, so farfoorth as it is able, and may be suffered. Neyther did our Sauiour Christ, giue any such authoritie to his A­postles, as to haue all Christian Nations vnder obedience, or to call them togither to generall Counsells, or to execute discipline vpon them, and to correct their falts: for that pow­er is giuen vnto Princes, and Christ did not come to take that powre from them, but hee hath confirmed it in them. The Apostles therefore, and the Apostolike men that were the immediate Successors of the Apostles, euen as many as God made excellent in his Church, in the time that was before Antichrist began to shewe him selfe in the estate of the papacie: were contented to leaue that powre to princes and did both by doctrine, and by example of life, teach all Christians to shew their due obedience to Princes. But when your Bishops of Rome were become Antichristian: then they must needes aduaunce them selues aboue all that is called God (that is aboue all Princes) and they must sit in the temple of God, and boast them selues as though they had bin Gods, that so they might bee knowne to bee that man of sinne that Saint Paule ment of, in that hee wrote, 2. Thess. 2. 2. Thes. 2.

For the third parte of this Offer, wherein the Offerer requireth the learned Protestant to prooue that the tytles which are in the scriptures and Doctors giuen to the church of Christ, coulde euer bee challenged by any right, to their hid and vnknowne Congregation, &c. For answere to this: the learned Protestant: referreth the Reader to that an­swere that hee hath made to the seuentéenth and to y ^e eight­téenth Offer, with this addition, that if this Offerer can prooue, that euer any of these excellent properties or pecu­lier denominations and callings, might possibly agrée to that knowne Antichristian church that hee is of: then will this learned Protestant, relent, yeelde, and recant, and bee an Antichristian Catholique, and not before.

¶ A new Offer, touching the sixe se­uerall signes, that the Offerer calleth cer­taine and sure signes, &c.

Certayne & assured sig­nes and to­kens of fals prophets, Heretiques, and schis­matikes.Last of all, when these notes following, being most cer­taine and sure signes and tokens of Antichristians, false Prophets, Heretiques, and schismatikes, mentioned, & ma­nifestly expressed in diuers partes of the scriptures, shall by the learned protestant be prooued more aptly and truely to agree vnto vs of the common knowne church of Christ, then vnto the Protestantes of so many sundry and diuers sects and congregations, I shall submit, yeelde, and recant, and not before.

Crowley.

When this presumptuous Offerer, shall prooue that the Church of Rome that now is (whereof hee glorieth that hee is a member) is the true Catholique church of Christ, and not Antichristian, Hereticall, and schismaticall: and that the notes that hee speaketh of, doo not more aptly and truly agree vnto him and to men of his sort, then vnto vs that be Protestants, (whom hée calleth Antichristes, false Prophets, Heretiques, and schismatikes) then will I sub­mit, yeelde and recant, and not before.