THE FIRST DAYES CONFERENCE. Concerning Antiquitie in General.

R. WElcome ( Sir) I see you are a true man, and keepe promise.

What I am not in good faine would I be.

Thinke you not best we begin where wee left yester­night?

Yea indeede.

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What say you then of Antiquitie? will you not graunt that to bee the true Church which hath the most auncient Doctrine?

That is a thing out of all question; the Doctrine which is most ancient I embrace, and beleeue to be most true.

You will myre your selfe incontinent, for these which yee call corruptions in the Church of Rome, some of them will be found a thousand yeares old.

What is that to the mat­ter? Seeing the truth where­by we condemne these corrup­tions will be found elder then they, and wee, to speake with Vincentius, wil euer preferre the olde Faith to new vnfaithful­nesse: for if you thinke this a [Page 3] good Argument: Such a do­ctrine or ceremonie should be receiued, because it is one thousand and two hundred yeares old, then by the same reason the heresies of Simon Magus must bee receiued for a truth, because they were taught by him one thousand and sixe hundred yeares since.

But said you not euen now, you would acknowledge that to be most true which is most ancient?

I say that same yet; And that you may conceiue it the better, I pray you consider that truth and errour, suppose they came not of the same parents, yet in regard of time they are like two twinnes, but the van­tage of time that is, truth hath [Page 4] it, suppose very little.

I pray you let me heare that at more length, for I see it will greatly helpe to cleare this point.

Will you goe vp to the Church in Paradise, and you shall see the first voice that sounded there was Gods voice: For in the first two Chapters of Genesis, you will heare nothing but Deus dixit, God said: but in­continent in the third Chapter comes in, Et Serpens dixit, and the Serpent said.

I see that clearely.

And I am glad you doe so: But I pray you consider, wil any man be so mad as to thinke that Sathans lies shall bee recei­ued for a truth, because they are now neere sixe thousand yeares old?

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It were no reason indeed, because albeit his lies [...]ee olde, yet (as you haue said) there is a Truth elder.

I pray you remember that, that it may confirme you against the craft of Sathan, when hee would couer errour with a shew of Antiquitie.

I hope to doe so.

Now will yee come down againe to the dayes of Christ Iesus; may you not see that when our Lord sent out his A­postles, Sathan also sent out his false Apostles▪ and when Simon Peter comes out to Preach the Gospell, Simon Magus is stirred vp to Preach heresies?

I see that also.

Then let vs agree in this, since Truth is to bee sought [Page 6] from our fathers according as we are commanded, Enquire for the good and olde way; we will goe seeke it from our most ancient fathers.

Truely it caries with it I thinke a reason, that we should not be mooued with the opini­on of any father, where they varie from the doctrine of the first fathers.

You▪ speake now as you should, and as before I shewed you was the mind of that anci­ent father Iustine Martyr: Quest. 119 when it was obiected to him, such a father thought such a thing, he answered, Sed pater patrum Apo­stolus aliter sensit: And herein to confirme you, if controuersies of Religion were decided, as our Sauiour decided the questi­on [Page 7] of Polygamie, the debate be­tweene vs and the Romish Church were soone ended.

How did Christ resolue that contro [...]ersie of Polygamie?

By this rule, It was not so from the beginning: Leauing this to vs as a maxime in Religion, and a most sure rule whereby to trie truth from falshood, What hath not be [...]ne from the begin­ning, let it bee reiected as a no­ueltie. And herein the ancient fathers agree with vs. Be yee sol­lowers of me (saith the Apostle) as I am of Christ: if I, or an Angel, &c. Mihi antiquitas Iesi [...] Chri­stus est, cui non obedire manifestus est, & irremissibilis interitus. Ig­nat. Epist. ad Philad▪

Non attendendum quid quis an­te nos faciendum putauerit, sed [Page 8] quid, qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit. Cypri. lib. 2. Epist. 3.

Ne (que) enim hominis consue [...]udi­nem, sed Deiveritatem sequi opor­tet. Ibid.

Non est de consuetudine praescri­bendum, sed ratione vincendum. Ad Quintinum.

Obstinatio est, & praesumptio humanam traditionem diuinae dis­positioni antepone [...]e, nec animad­vertere [...]ndignaeri, & irasci deum; quoties diuina praecepta soluit, & praeterit humana traditio. Ad Pompeium.

Consuetudo sine veritate vetu­stas est erroris. Ibid.

Si ad diuinae traditionis caput, & originem reuertamur, cessat error humanus. Ibid

Frustrà quidam, quiratione vin­cuntur, consuetudinem nòbis oppo­nunt, [Page 9] q [...]asi con [...]uetudo sit mator ver [...]. [...]d [...]uba [...]anum.

Nec [...], n [...]c m [...]iorum er­ro [...] seq [...], e [...], sed au [...]horitas Script [...]r [...]r [...], & [...]i docem is im­per [...]m: [...] [...]iaei po [...] Baalim abieruns quos [...]idicerunt a patri­bus. Hie [...]on. in lerem. cap. 9.

Omnes h [...]retici aetati Eccle [...]ie v­niuer sa [...]is comparati, minores, tem­pore congrue vocantur: quia ipsi ab eâ, non autem ipsa egressa est [...]b illis. Greg. in Iob. lib. 10. Sect. 37.

Sicut in omnibus veritas imagi­nem antecedit, postremò similitudo succedit: ita prior veritas quam haeresis. Tertul. praescrip. aduer­sus haeret.

But what makes these a­gainst the Church of Rome?

Yea, very much, for all these nouelties which shee hath [Page 10] inuented, and intruded into the Church, she colours them with the shadow of ancient custome, and so very craftily vnder the name of Antiquitie, fights a­gainst Antiquitie.

It is not enough to affirme that, vnlesse yee qualifie it.

I will make it cleare to you, if first yee heare a notable testimonie o [...] Vincentius to this same purpose. Cap. 10.

What sayes he?

It is a propertie of Christian modestie not to deliuer their owne things to the after-commers, but to keepe things receiued from their fore-beers.

Very well; that place makes [...]gainst you who will not keepe the Religion of your fore-beers.

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It makes not against vs, but against the Church of Rome, who hath departed from the Religion of them who are theirs and our fore­ [...]eer [...] also, as the remnant of his words will declare vnto you.

Reade them out then.

Hee is expounding heere he Apostles words: If I, or an Angell from heauen should bring to you another doctrine, then that which yee haue receiued, let him be accursed.

What sayes hee of it?

These are his words: If Peter, if Andrew, if Iohn, yea if the whole Apostles would Preach to you an other way then is deliuered in the Gospell, let them be accursed: To Preach vnto Christian Catho­lickes, besides [...]hat which we haue [Page 12] receiued, was neuer, is neuer, shall neuer be lawfull.

Let it bee so, the Church of Rome hath deliuered no do­ctrine but that shee hath rec [...]i­ued.

Yes, but shee hath; and now once for all, I will giue you amongst many, one cleare ex­ample of it. In the thirteenth Session of the Councell of Con­stance, as is Recorded by Car­ranza one of your owne, and Registred in your Canon Law, there is an Act made of this te­nour. Licet in Primitiuâ Ecclesiâ huiusmodi Sacramentum recipere­tur a fidelibus sub vtra (que) specie, ta­men haec consuetudo ad euitandum aliqua pericula, & scandala, est ra­tiona [...]iliter introducta, quòd a con­ficientibus sub vtra (que) specie, a laicis [Page 13] tantummodo sub specie panis susci­piatur. Albeit in the Primitiue Church, this Sacrament was re­ceiued of the faithful vnder both the kinds, yet to eschewe some perils and offences, this custome now with very good reason is brought in, that the Priest should receiue it vnder both the kinds, but the people should receiue the bread onely, and not the cup. What thinke yee now of this place? Hath not the Church of Rome here de­liuered a Doctrine which shee hath not receiued? Is there not heere a manifest changing of Christs ordinance, and by their owne confession a plaine depar­ting from Antiquitie? What thinke you of this one instance?

I will aduise vpon it.

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Doe so, but I pray you fight not against the cleare light; and remember that all bee it the Doctours of your Church pretend alwayes An­tiquitie, Antiquitie; the [...]a­thers, the fathers; yet this one instance among a hundreth, prooues them to bee fathers o [...] nouelties: what say yee? Tell me, like yee to heare any more of Vincentius?

I am content, but let mee know [...]irst what writer hee is, and whose Translation is that.

He was a French-man, he writ this Treatise in the fiue hundreth yeare of Christ, and heere it is Translated by Ni­nian Winzet, a Masse-priest of the Church of Rome, which yee cannot refuse.

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Reade on, what sayes he further?

There is a commaund gi­uen to Timothie, Depos [...]um serua, which in all good reason should binde his successors: Thus hee expounds it: Keepe that which is committed to thee, not that which is inuented by thee: which thou hast receiued, not which thou hast ima­gined: wherein thou art no Author, inuenter, sorger, but a keeper; not a Law-maker but a Law-keeper; not a guide, but a follower: saue that which is giuen thee, saue the talent of Catholick faith vnbroken, vncorrupt: what thou hast recei­ued, render it againe, if thou hast receiued Gold, render Gold againe; slippe not in one thing in stead of an other, for Gold lay not downe lead, nor brasse.

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I heare all that, and I thinke hee writes like a sound Diuine.

Then take heed [...]; the A­postle protests he d [...]liuered that to the Corinthians, which hee had receiued from the LORD IESVS.

I know that.

Hee commanded Timo­thie, and all others his succes­sors in the worke of the Mini­sterie to doe the like.

And good reason so they should.

Then there is the point; How is it that the Church of Rome takes on her this libertie to doe otherwise?

Wherein doe they other­wise?

Haue you forgot so soone? [Page 17] Saint Paul deliuered to the peo­ple as wel the Cup as the Bread, because hee receiued it from Christ Iesus: how is it then that the Church of Rome takes a­way the Cup from the people?

Why? May not the Church make Lawes?

No such Lawes as dero­gate to Christs Lawes, for in that sense you heard Vincentius denie that they are Law-ma­kers, but Law-keepers: I pray you giue place to the truth, and consider how little cause they haue to bragge of Antiquitie, who dare make the like of that; Albeit Christ and his Apostles, and the Primitiue Church did this, yet we for good causes will doe oth [...]rwayes.

Alway that is but one [...]oint,

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But seeing you cannot de­nie but they haue broken, and corrupted the auncient Catho­licke faith in one point, you haue the lesse cause to beleeue or defend them in the rest, vnlesse you wil incurre Gods curse threatned on them that pares or addes to his word.

The Lord saue me from his curse.

Amen, but pray first that the Lord would saue you from the sin that deserues his curse.

God grant it.

And so I wish from my heart it may be: But I pray you consider as in one Sacrament you are guiltie of sacrilegious paring, so in both you are guil­tie of sacrilegious adding and changing: and so cannot [...]schew [Page 19] the curse if you abide in Com­munion with the Church of Rome that now is.

How So?

As yee haue taken Wine from the Bread, so yee haue ad­ded Water to the Wine, which is a new inuention and forgerie, albeit your Doctours to excuse it cast it on Alexander the first, yet it is certain, it was not in Christs institution, and by your owne confessions was brought in many yeares after Christ, and so should bee reiected as a noueltie.

That is but a smal thing, and there may be many reasons to excuse it.

No: not one; Let no man bee wiser then God. Who dare adde to the ordinance of Christ? [Page 20] But you haue done worse in Baptisme adding Spittle, Oyle, and Salt to the element of Wa­ter: was this done by Christ or his Apostles? You father the Oyle vpon Siluester, but con­fesse it was not vsed in the Church in Baptisme before him, and so it is an other anci­ent noueltie.

It may bee they haue thought good to vse these for reasons and respects which I know not; but this pertaines not to the substance of Baptis­me, and can not annull it.

I graunt they doe not an­null Baptisme, yet are they in­excusable, who in the smallest thing dare alter the institution of Christ: Are not his Sacra­ments the Seales of his coue­nant?

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I confesse they are.

Why then, since it is trea­son to pare, or adde any thing to the forme of the Princes Sig­net, is it not Sacrilegious bold­ness [...] to pare or adde to Christs Sacrament? But least you should thinke the controuersi [...] onely to bee about these things, you shall know that, except the Ar­ticle of the Trinitie, the Church of Rome hath left no Article of our Faith vncorrupted, so that it is most certaine, This Church of Rome with the do­ctrine, and iurisdiction nowe maintained by her, was not in the Primitiue Church.

O but I wil tell you what I once heard concerning that matter, from one of their Do­ctors: That there is a great diffe­rence [Page 22] betweene a Church in her in­fancie, and her older and riper age: For as it growes in age, so may it and should it increase in many things which it had not in the infancie thereof.

Nowe I see you speake from such knowledge, as the great labours of the Iesuites workes in the hearts of their captiues, and because it is your last and greatest defence, I will let you still see out of the words of Vincentius, which you will like better then mine, that this makes nothing for you.

Come on let vs see; what sayes Vincentius?

He grants, There should be an encr [...]ase in Faith, but not a change of Faith.

That is a strange distincti­on, [Page 23] and yet so honest, that in truth I dare not gaine-say it.

Heare him then; hee ex­pounds the two parts of his di­stinction: To encrease (saith he) is when a thing biding in it selfe is more amplified: To change, is when a thing going out of it selfe is tran­slated & turned into an other. To make this cleare, hee illustrates it by a proper similitude: Let (sayes hee) the Religion of soules follow the nature of bodies, which albe [...]t in processe of yeres they grow, yet they remaine the same: the same members, the same Ioyntes are in Children which are in Men, though in the one stronger and greater, in the other smaller and weaker: but if the shape bee turned in any forme not of the owne kind, or any thing bee eked to the num­ber [Page 24] of the members, or taken from the same, then either the body pe­risheth, or becomes monstrous, or at the least becomes weake. So in Religion, if wee shall begin to mixe noueltie with Antiquitie, we shall make the Church a brothell of fil­thie and abominable errours, which before was a Temple of chaste and vndefiled veritie, where as the Church of Christ should bee a dili­gent keeper of the doctrine deliue­red to it, changing nothing, dimi­nishing nothing, adding nothing. Now these are the words of Vincentius, and I demand of you out of the light of your consci­ence if you can gaine-say them.

In truth it is a pretie dis­course, and I embrace all that he hath said as a truth.

Aduise you th [...]n yet, [Page 25] what yee wil say for the Church of Rome, since it can not bee denied they haue changed, di­minished, and added to the an­cient Catholicke faith: Some ceremonies and opinions they haue which Antiquitie knewe not, & some the ancient Church had, which they haue pared a­way, and in a word haue so change, that in Rome is no­thing anci [...]nt but the name.

That seemes very hard: For, though in some ceremo­nies there bee adding, paring, and chaunging, yet I can not thinke it is in substance.

You are farre deceiued, for they haue made a change in the substance.

Wherein?

In the maine point of sal­uation, [Page 26] as now among many I will shew you by this one. What Diuinitie is this, to teach peo­ple to pray that God would bring them to Heauen by an o­ther blood then Christs blood?

O that can not be.

Nay maruaile not, there is the Prayer of their owne Masse booke.

I haue not he [...]rd of that, for my owne part I would bee loath to chaunge the blood of the couenant, or to disgrace it so farre as to ioyne any other with it.

The more wise are you, for it is by Christs blood Onely, [Page 27] that reconciliation is made. But what thinke yee of confidence, should wee put considence in a­ny but in God?

No truely.

What a Prayer is this thē?

And is not Prayer thinke you and Inuocation, a speciall point of Gods seruice?

So it is.

Why then is it giuen to Saints; and that Psalter which containes Prayers & praises to God, all turned ouer to the Vir­gine Marie? Should mens tra­ditions, to whome God by his heauenly oracle hath not borne testimonie, be receiued, Pari pi­etatis affectu & reuerentiâ, with [Page 28] like deuotion and reuerence, as the word of God?

Who sayes that?

The Councell of Trent. Dist. 19. ca. Si Rom [...] ­norum & in Canoni­ci [...]. Should the foure Councels bee receiued as the foure Euange­lists, or should the Canon Law and decretall Epistles bee recei­ued as Canonicall Scripture?

I know not what that is.

Then I will tell you: Twelue hundreth yeares after Christ, Gratian a Benedictine Monke, gathered together the sentences of Councels, Fathers, and Popes, concerning sundrie matters of Religion, and set it forth, which is commonly cal­led Decretum; and after him cer­tain Popes, as Gregory the ninth, Boniface the eight, Clemens the fift, Iohn the twentie two, fol­lowing [Page 29] the example of Gratian, haue gathered the like: These are called Decretals, and Extra­uagants added to Decretum; all of them make vp the Canon law, which now must bee equalled with the word, and all to bee receiued, as if Peter his owne mouth had pronounced them. Is not this against the golden rule of Vincentius, to mixe no­ueltie with Antiquitie; What say you to it?

In truth I can not iudge of that which I know not.

I will giue you but one Decrete of this law, and let you see how it strikes the Apostle S. Paul in the teeth, that by it you may iudge of the rest. Caus. 26. quaest. 2. & Caus. 31. qu [...]st. 1. Secundam accipere vxorem secundùm Apo­stoli praeceptum licitum est; secun­dum [Page 30] autem veritatis rationem ve­rè fornicatio est. Second marri­age [...]ccording to the Apostles precept is lawful, but according to the truth of reason is plaine fornication. I am not now to dispute whether Church-men may Marrie or not: Causa. 26. Quest. 2. themselues grant it is not forbidden, nei­ther by Legall, nor Apostolicall authoritie, yet they will forbid it. But what Diuinitie is this? According to the Apostles pre­cept, it is lawfull to Marrie, but according to truth and reason it is Whoredome, that is as they would saye, according to the word of God in the Bible it is true, but according to the word of God in the Canon Law writ­ten twelue hundreth yeares af­ter Christ it is false. Did the A­postle [Page 31] giue any precept with­out reason or truth? How dare they call that vnlawfull, which the Apostle cals lawfull: W [...]e be to them who call good euill. You hold silence at these things and no maruaile, for I thinke no ho­nest man can approoue them. But to return to things of great importance, I assure you the onely question and controuer­sie in Religion this day may be taken vp in this question: Is Ie­sus the Sonne of Mary the Christ? Or as the Baptist takes it vp, Art thou hee who is come, or shall wee looke for an other?

I thinke no man will de­nie that.

Yea the Turke, and Pagane say, such Christ as Christians beleeue is neither come, nor wil [Page 32] come: the Iewes say hee is not come, but hee will come: The Catholicke Romane in word confesseth him, but in deede de­nies him: Quem praedicant impug­nant, both in his Person and Offices.

That is a strange asserti­on, & such as I haue not heard.

It is strange indeede, and I would wee had no cause to charge them with it, but bee­cause it is the most weightie point whereof yet w [...] haue spo­ken, wee will referre it to bee handled in a meeter time.

I am content, prouiding you forget not to make that good which you haue said.

If I forget, I pray remem­ber me: And now this Dispute about Antiquitie, I conclude [Page 33] with IGNATIVS: Mihi anti­quitas est Iesus Christus, cui non obedire manifestus est, & irremis­sibilis interitus. Epist. ad Phila­delphos. My Antiquitie is Ie­sus Christ; to disobey him is ma­nifest and remedilesse destructi­on: and with that which A [...] ­gustine said to the Pelagians: Quia isti disserunt, De verb. Apos [...] ser. 14. & disputant nescio quas impias nouitates, etiam nos conantur arguere quòd aliquod nouum dicamus. Because these f [...]llowes maintaine certaine impious nouelties, they also goe about to charge vs, as if wee did teach any new thing. But of this if you please you shall heare more.

It pleaseth me very well, & I shall attend your comming if you may at seuen howres.

Let it be so.

THE SECOND DAYES CONFERENCE. Concerning the Antiquitie of the Church of SCOTLAND, and how the Church of ROME in her best estate was but a sister, & not a mother Church vnto it.

WHat say you to day (Sir) haue you considered the points of our last conference?

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Yea I haue beene (as I may) thinking vpon them.

What? Is not your heart mooued to come to vs?

I find it mooued, but not remooued from the Church of Rome.

Tell mee (I pray you) what is that which holdes you from vs?

To bee plaine with you, since the Church of Rome is your mother Church, you can with no good conscience for­sake her.

If that be all your scruple, I hope to resolue you: for this day by Gods grace I will shewe that we of this Church of Scot­land had neuer our faith from the Church of Rome; yea that in her best estate shee was no [Page 37] more but a sister Church vnto vs. The next day God willing I wil shew you that the Church of Rome is Apostatique now, not like that Church of olde, which the Apostle commen­ded, and is not onely a Whoore her selfe, but the mother of Whooredomes.

You haue taken much in hand.

No more then by Gods grace I hope to qualifie, if you wil with patience heare me, and interrupt me not.

Speake as long as you please, I shall heare you.

No (Sir) I will be loath to burden you with multitude of words, but shall bee very well content, when you heare any point wherein weight is, that [Page 38] you warne me to cleare it.

Well, I shall doe so God willing.

Then first I will saye, Rome hath beene no mother Church, neither to the Chur­ches of Asia: these were planted by Apostles and Apostolicke men; Nor yet to the Churches of A [...]ricke: Christianity was first conueied to them by Marke the Euangelist, and the Eunuch of Ethiopia, whom Philip baptised: And I can let you see (but that I shall disgresse ouer farre) that fiue hūdreth yeres after Christ the Churches of Africke would not acknowledge the Bishop of Rome their superiour.

Our question is not now concerning them: for I knowe the Church of Rome receiued [Page 39] her faith from the Churches of Asia, and they of Asia recei­ued it not from the Church of Rome. And as to them of A­fricke, whatsoeuer is disputable, there wee leaue it as not pertai­ning to our present puropse.

Oh good Sir, you will grant then that the Church of Rome is farre posterior to the Churches of A [...]ia, and, if it bee compared with them, is but a daughter Church.

That I can not denie: But the Churches of Europe, and specially these of the west parts were first conuerted to Christ by the Church of Rome.

No (Sir) yee are decei­ued in that also, and this is the point wherein I am to contra­dict you.

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I am sure you will not contradict mee, without some warrant.

That were no reason: I will let you see that the most fa­mous Churches of Europe (as their Records testifie) had not their faith from the Church of Rome, and then I will come to our owne.

I think long to heare that.

And I will delay you no longer. In the Councel of Trent, there was a great question be­tweene the French and Spanish Prelates, about the first place: The greatest Argument that a­ny of them vsed, was from the Antiquitie of their Christiani­tie, which none of them allead­ged, they had from the Church of Rome, albeit at that time [Page 41] both of them sought the Popes fauour.

From whence got they it then, if they got it not from Rome?

The Spaniards alleadged, they were made Christians by Saint Iames, who after hee had Preached the Gospell in Spaine, returned to Palestina, and was president of that famous Coun­cell holden at Ierusalem, Act. 15 then being Martyred, his bones were brought to Compostella, and there buried. The French replied that their narration was fabulous, and that it is more likely, if any Apostle came to Spaine, hee came rather by land to France, and so taught them by the way, then otherwise by Sea: And if any credit might be [Page 42] giuen to such traditions, they could also with more probabi­litie alledge that Lazarus, and Nathaniel taught the Gospell a­mong them▪ & this at that time they spake for themselues. But out of more certaine Storie this might bee said also for them, th [...]t Philip Preached the Gos­pell in France: CRESCENS also Pauls Disciple, for there it is said 2. Tim. 4. TITVS is gone to Dal­matia, and Cresc [...]ns to Galatia: Euseb. lib. 3. cap. calles it Gallia. Besides him Trophymus, Cent. 2. c. 2. another of Pauls Disciples taught at Or­leance: Photinus againe, a very worthy man, and after him Irenaeus taught the Gospell at Ly­ons. Germaine was first conuer­ted by Lucius of Cyrene, Auentinus in Annal. Boiorum. Paules kinsman and companion. Yea [Page 43] the Churches of Italy will not bee found to haue the Church of Rome for their Mother Church, for why Barnab [...]s first Preached the Gospell at Millan, as testifieth Sabellicus, Sabel. En­n [...]a [...]. 7. li. 4. and Apol­linaris taught at Rauenna. But to come to the Church of Rome, tell mee, who did first conuert the Romanes to the Christian faith?

Who but Saint Peter!

I will not now contend with you about that matter though it bee very dispu [...]able, Whether Peter was at Rome or not; and your owne man Clemens, Clem. lib. 1. Recognitio­num and Dorotheus also af­firme, that Barnabas first taught the Gospell at Rome: But if Pe­ter came to Rome, what time came he to it?

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I cannot well remember.

I will helpe you: Lib. 3. Cap. 1. & 3. Irenaeus sayes, S. Peter came to Rome when Saint Matthew wrote his Euangell, in the third yeare of Cai [...]s, & fortie one after Christ. As for Saint Paul hee wrote not his Epistle to Rome, till the thirteenth yeare of [...] Claudius, Cen. Lib. 1. Cap. 10. and fiftie fiue years after Christ, and himself came not to Rome till the fiftie eight yeare after Christ.

What would you make of all that?

Either yee must grant the Church of Rome was not con­uerted by Saint Peter, or then there was no Church there be­fore the fortie one yeare after our Lord, at which time Saint Peter came to it.

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Let it be so.

Then I pray you consi­der, that the Church of this Land, being little posterior in time to the Church of Rome, there is no reason they should beare vs downe with the sha­dow of their Antiquitie, nor in­sult ouer vs, as if they were a mother Church to vs, seeing it pleased God to conuert vs to the Christian faith, almost as soone as themselues, and that not by them but by others whom he sent among vs.

But yee haue not made that cleare as yet.

What I haue not, I shall by Gods grace. In the second yeare of Claudi [...]s, and fortie foure yeares after Christ, Simon Zelotes an Apostle came to Bri­taine, [Page 46] and, Preached the Gospel: This was but three yeares after Simon Peter came to Rome.

How will you proue that?

My proofes are; Dorothe­us in his Synopsis: Simon Zelo­tes peragratâ Mauritaniâ, & A­phrorum regione, Christ [...]m praedi­cauit tandem in Britannia, vbi cru­cifixus, occïsus, & sepultus est. Doroth. Againe, Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 40. sayes that Simon Zelo­tes hauing Preached to many Countreyes, at length Euangelij doctrinam ad occidentalem Ocea­num insulas (que) Britannica [...] perfert, and both of them are cited by your late Cardinall, writer of the Historie, Baronius.

Is that all you haue for you?

No: I haue more yet; for [Page 47] Ioseph of Arimathea, Baron. An­nales. about the yeare of our Lord fiftie three, came also to Britaine, and taught the Gospell: witnesses hereof are Balaeus, Flemingus, Capgrauus, Scropus, Polidorus Virgilius; and as many thinke, he was sent by Philip out of France ouer to Bri­taine. Moreouer Theodoret wit­nesseth, that the Apostle Saint Paul after his deliuerance out of Prison vnder Nero, Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. Holius. came into Britaine, and taught the Gos­pell. And the same also is testi­fied by Sophronius Patriarch of Ierusalem.

I remember indeede that in his Epistle to the Rom. 15.24 was then of purpose to haue come to Spaine.

And you may the more easily think he came to Britaine [Page 48] in like manner, seeing so famous an Author affirmes it: and you shal like it the better if you cōsi­der the matter he hath in hand, when he makes mention of the conversion of Britaine.

I pray you let me heare it.

The Graecians alledged that our first propagators of the evangell were base men, not comparable for wisedome and Learning to their Law-giuers, Lycurgus, Solon, and the rest: This Father replyed that the lawes of their Law-giuers were only receiued in Graecia, but that our first Preachers of the Gos­pell had in short time made the most famous Countries, and Kingdomes of the World to embrace it. An euident argu­ment of a diuine power assisting [Page 49] them: [...], &c. for sayes hee our Fithers, and Publicans, and that Tent maker, or Cutter of Leather (so hee calles Saint Paul) hath not only made the Romans, and these who liue vnder their Empire to embrace the Christian faith, but also th [...] Scythians, Sauromatans, Indians, Ethiopians, Persians, Britans, Ger­mans, and in a word hath indu­ced all Nations, [...], to receiue the Lawes of CHRIST crucified. What thinke you of this testi­monie?

Truly I am glad to heare that the Lord among other Nations hath also had mercie on this Countrie of ours, to cōmunicate to them the grace [Page 50] of the Gospell.

You shal yet heare more; that Aristobolus, mentioned Rom. 16. came also to this Isle, and discharged the Office of a Bishop, as witnesseth the fore­named Dorotheus. May you not see wee are not inferiour to any Christian Countrie in this part of the World, and that we haue as many cleare witnesses of our Ancient Christian faith, as any nation of Europe hath for them?

Indeede I see you haue more then I would haue belee­ued, if their authoritie be good enough.

What need you doubt of their authoritie? for if testimo­nies of Fathers of the Primitiue Church bee good to proue the Antiquitie of any Church in [Page 51] Europe, why should their au­thoritie be called in doubt whē they speake for our Church?

But we are informed that the Bishops of Rome were the first, who sent some of their Clergie to this Isle to convert it to the faith.

You may see the contra­rie, by that which I haue said al­readie; and I will yet make it more cleare to you. The first King of the South part of the Isle that embraced the Christi­an faith, was Lucius, in the y [...]are of our LORD one hundreth twentie and foure. In that same time Donald King of the North part of it became also a Chri­stian.

That is true; but Lucius required the Bishop of Rome to [Page 52] send him some teachers to in­struct him in the Christian faith and (as the Chronicle recordes) he sent into Britaine, Damianus, [...]nd Fugatianus.

What will you gather of that?

That this Ile was conver­ted by such teachers as the Bi­shop of Rome sent into it.

How can you say that? seeing many in the Kingdomes were conuerted before the Kings were converted, & your owne Baronius cannot denie it; these are his wordes: Cum diu a­lioqui anie Euangelium Christi illu [...] perlatum fuisset, vt testatur Gilda sapiens: that long before those men Damianus, and Fuga [...]ianus came here, the Gospel was here, as witnesseth Gilda the wise: Se­ing [Page 53] your owne Writers are [...]or­ced to confesse it, I maruel with what face can any man say, that the Gospell came to vs from Rome.

All that you haue yet said makes something for the Church of England; nothing for the Church of Scotland.

W [...] inhabit both one Isle; and what good or euill specially in Religion hath come to the one, hath beene fou [...]d by mani­fold experiences easily deriued to the other.

But what think you; whe­ther came the light of the Gos­pell first to you or to them?

That is a Iesuiticall Policy to diuide them whome GOD hath coupled, and to cause vs to contend together in that, wher­in [Page 54] we agree ioyntly to contend with the Church of Rome: what part of the Isle God did first il­luminate with his light is no­thing to the matter: If it was their glorie to haue the Sunne of righteousnesse first shining on them, wee enuie it not; this is sufficient: the Lord had a Church here in this Isle as soon as in Rome, and neither they nor wee had our faith from Rome; and if [...]ou, or any for you will call in doubt the antiquitie of the Church of England, I warrant you, you shall finde a number both of Learned and Graue Diuines (where­in they are not inferiour to any Church in Europe) to an­swere for themselues. And if yet you craue further light [Page 55] concerning the antiquity of our Church, I will shew you that which may content you if you be reasonable.

Let me heare what is that.

Marke me this testimonie of Tertullian who liued in the two hundreth yeare of Christ: Adu [...]rsus I [...]daeos. cap. 7.8. Britannorumloca Romanismacces­sa Christo subdita sunt. Now what part of Britaine he meanes your owne Cardinall Ba [...]onius will declare vnto you: for when he hath said, magnam B [...]itanni [...]e partem fuisse liberam, then hee proues it by the wall built so of­ten by Victo [...]ine, by Adri [...]n; as hee cites ex A [...]lio Spartianom Adriano, and an other ce [...]tius murus built by Antonin [...]s Pius; as he cites out of Iulius Capitoli­nus in Pio. By this saith he, it is [Page 56] euident that Britannia was diui­ded by a wall; [...]aron. an­nal. anno Christi 183 Sect. 6. that part within the w [...]ll was possessed by Ro­m [...]ns, the other without Bri­tanni liberè possiderunt, qui saepe muros illos egres [...] Romanos praelijs provocarun [...]: What say ye now of these testimonies?

I thinke indeede that is a great testimonie for the antiqui­tie of your Church.

So you may: for this same cause Petrus Cluniacensis vocat Scotos Antiquiores Christianos, Cen [...]ur. [...]. cap. 2. Ce [...]t. 3. cap. 3. calles Scottish men the more auncient Christians. You will make then no more contradi­ction, but that these testimo­nies which record the conuer­sion of Britaine, belong both to the South and North parts of the Isle?

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Your former argument brought out of Tertullian, and expounded by Baronius cleares that.

Yet if you please, heare what Origen sayes, Hom. 4. in Ezech. who liued in the yeare of CHRIST two hundreth and sixtie; hee also witnesseth Britanniam in Chri­stianam consentire religionem. To him we may adde Ierome, Ad Eua­grium. in the yeare of our Lord foure hundreth and fiue: Gallia, Bri­tannia, Africa, Persis, oriens I [...]dia, & omnes barbarae Nationes vnum Christum adorant, vnam obseruant regulam veritatis.

But why then by some is Palladius called Scotorum Apo­stolus?

Men may giue names as they please; but hee and Serva­nus, [Page 58] Sedulius, Nimanus and many more came, but in the fiue hun­dreth yeare of our Lord, and may well haue beene waterers of our Church, but sure it is they were not the first planters of it.

It is likely indeed to be so.

But to returne. Vnder Dio­cletian in the three hundreth yeare, great persecution was made by that Tyrant in al Chri­stian Churches, and among the rest the Church of South Bri­taine was also persecuted by his Deputies, for the which many fled to Crachlint King of Scots, who did louingly receiue them, and assigned to them the Isle of M [...]n, and erected there a Tem­ple dedicated to Christ called o­therwise Sodo [...]ēsis ecclesia, wher­in they peaceably worshipped [Page 59] Christ Iesus; and this our owne Chronicle witnesseth. After this in the dayes of Fethelmacus, which was about the [...]ift yeare of the Emperour Constantius, there came into this Countrie one Regulus Albatus out of Achaia a Prouince in Graecia; but the Countrie was conuer­ted also long before hee came: Therefore [...]iergus [...] King of the Pictes gaue him his Palace hee had in Fy [...]e, Holius. Pag. 87. where hee built the Church of Saint Andrew: desire you still to heare any more?

Truely I am very glad to heare that we haue beene so an­cient Christians; and yet there remaines a doubt in my heart, that the Gospell came neuer hi­ther but out of Rome.

Remember you not what [Page 60] I haue prooued; seeing wee are but three yeares in Christiani­tie behinde Rome, thinke you in so small time they did so en­crease, that they spread out their branches to the vttermost parts of the earth? Yea, rather if you will reade the Storie, you shall finde that for three hundreth yeares (wherein are many three yeares) they were so vexed by the persecutors, that they could not get their owne Church sta­blished; as after it was when God relented the persecution. But to come n [...]erer yet vnto you; whether hee was an Apo­stle or an Apostolicke man, that first planted our Church, I will giue you two great reasons that wee haue our Faith from the Greeke or East Churches, not [Page 61] frō the Latine or West Church.

Nowe that is the point, and I pray you once cleare it: for I thinke if you euince that, the Church of Rome in her best estate hath beene vnto vs a sister Church, but no mother church.

My first Argument is from Petrus Cluniacensis Abbas, writing to Bernard, who affirmes that for seuen or eight hundred yeares after Christ, the Scottish­men did celebra [...]e the Passeouer all this time after the Grecian maner, not aster the Romane.

I vnderstand not that.

Then I will tell you it. Soone after the dayes of the A­postles, there happened a con­trouersie betweene the Chur­ches of the East and West, a­bout the celebration of the [Page 62] Passeouer: They of the East did obserue it the fourteenth day of the Moone, that same day wherein the Iewes kept their Passeouer: They againe of the West, thinking they would haue no communion with the Iewes, did celebrate it the next Sabboth after the fourteenth day. Polïcrates, with the orien­tall Bishops, alledged the au­thoritie of Iohn, Philip, Policarp, yea the prescript of the Euan­gell for their warrant. Victor, and the Bishops of the West al­ledged for their warrant, Saint Peter, Saint Paul: Such as were more moderate, misliked to see a Schisme in the Church for so small a matter: Irenaeus iudgeth, Obseruationes ill [...]s esse liber [...]s. So­crates, Ostendit nec Victorem, nec [Page 63] Policraten iustam habuisse causam de festo Paschatis tam odiose digla­diandi: Nam nec Seruator (inquit) nec Apostoli [...]: Seeing neither our Sauiour, nor his Apostles by a­ny Law hath commanded the obseruation thereof.

Truely it was a lamenta­ble thing, to see so sore a renting of the Church, for so small a cause.

It was indeede: and yet that in this controuersie, the Churches of Britaine obserued the manner of the Easterne Church, it is an argument they reuerenced the East Church for their mother, from whome the grace of the Gospell had come to them.

It is indeede likely: If [Page 64] these Churches had beene plan­ted by Romish Doctors, they would haue also receiued the Romish ceremonies.

But there is yet an other Argument: Histor. Bri­tan. lib. 8. cap. 4. Galsrid the Cardi­nall in his Storie of Britaine, which hee wrote in the seuen hundreth yeare, witnesseth that the Britans would not receiue Augustinus Iunior, Cent. 2. Cap. 2. the Legate of Gregorie the great, nor yet ac­knowledge any primacie of the Bishop of Rome ouer them: An euident argument they estee­med not the Romish Church to be their Mother Church. To cleare this you shall know that in the sixt hundreth yeare Gre­gorius magnus sent into England Augustinus Iunior, to perswade the Church there to receiue the [Page 65] Romish ceremonies, which to that day they had not knowne; as Altars, Images, Vestiments; Crosses, wherein albeit hee had not such speedie successe as hee would, yet at length did he ob­taine it, and intended also to ef­fect the like in the Church of Scotland, Cent. 6. li. 5. cap. 17. but was strongly resi­sted by Daganus, and Columbanus, Qui nullam in ritibus mutationem admittere voluerunt. Againe in the seuen hundreth yeare a great schisme was in the church of Britaine: some refusing the Ceremonies of the Romish Church, keeping still their an­cient custome; for the which they pretended the authoritie of Saint Iohn the Evangelist: O­thers againe embracing the Ro­mish ceremonies▪ which part [Page 66] waxed the stronger, in that King Osuvius inclined to them. Al­way the matter was debated with so hot contention, that from words it came to wepons, and twelue hundreth Church-men were slain that refused the Romish Ceremonies: this is all the good the Britaine Church got from the Popes Legate; yet the euill rested not heere, for at length in the eight hundreth yeare, by th [...] perswasion of one Ecbertus, this part of the Isle was also induced to receiue the Ro­mish Ceremonies, and thereaf­ter their corrupt doctrine. And thus did the Bishop of Rome first obtaine superioritie ouer vs; and disgrace by his foolish inventi­ons the glorie, and sinceritie of the Chur [...]h of Britaine. By all [Page 67] this discourse which truely I haue made vnto you, it may be evident how vainely and with­out a cause the defenders of the Romish Church brag of their ancient Primacie ouer all Chur­ches, and specially how far they wrong this Isle, when they will haue Rome caled a mother to the Churches here: which vnlesse you will adde one syllable can­not be admitted, for indeed she is a Stepmother, and in a word that Infamous Whoore of Babel, who as shee hath corrupted the Churches with her abhomina­ble Superstitions, no maruell if shee hath at length infected vs also. That Rome is B [...]bel I will shew GOD willing in our next conference, where we shall yet more abūdantly see Gods goodnesse [Page 68] towardes this Isle, that as we were among the last of them who were deceiued by her in­chantmēts, so (praised be God) we are among the first of these, whom God by the light of the Gospell hath deliuered from her bondage: And the LORD more and more open your eyes to see the truth.

God grant me that grace. I will not denie you haue wake­ned thoughts in mee which at this time I cannot vtter: And now if you prooue Rome to bee Babel, I wil thinke my selfe hap­pie that God hath sent mee this occasion, as to call mee out of it among others of his people. But to morrow, God willing, you will (I hope) keepe your promise.

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If God lend mee life, and health, I will not faile.

THE THIRD DAYES CONFERENCE. Concerning the Apostacie of the Church of ROME, and how shee is now become that mother of Whoredomes. REVEL.

NOw (Sir) I am come againe to keepe my pro­mise, & to proue vnto you that Babel in the Reuelation signifieth Rome.

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I thinke that shall bee the most difficult labour you haue taken in hand hitherto.

Will you make mee this promise, to quit your commu­nion with the Church of Rome, if I proue her to be the Whore of Babel, the mother of Whore­domes?

I thinke it were good rea­son: for I see what euer that Ba­bel may be, much euill is spoken of it, and all Gods people are commaunded to goe out of Ba­bel, with certification, if they will not, they shall be partakers of her plagues.

Goe to then, we will first lay this for a ground, that Babel here is not to be taken literally, neither for Babel in Egypt called now Cayrus, nor yet for Babel in [Page 72] Caldie: but that figuratiuely it signifies some other thing be­sides any of them, and this is granted by your owne Doctors. Hoc primùm constet, Riber. in Apoc. 14. nomen Baby­lon [...]s hic non propriè, sed figura [...]è accipi: Cum dicit mysterium, my­sticum esse indicat quod dicit, id est, arcanum quippiam latere in no­mine Babylonïs, nec ita debere acci­pi vt sonat.

Let that passe, for I see in that generall you and they a­gree.

Wel then; wee will come and see what is vnderstood by Babel: where if you will first heare how the Romish Do­ctors expound Babel, you shall see such confusion among them as declares them to bee the buil­ders of Babel indeed, for one of [Page 73] them vnderstands not what the other saies.

How so?

You shal see how so. The Divines of Rhemes say that Ba­bel, and the Whoore of Babel signi­fies the vniversall companie of the wicked. Reuel. cap. 14.8. what thinke you of that?

Good [...]ooth I cānot think it a solid Commentarie: for this Whoore of Babel is said to make all Nations drunken with the wine of her fornications, & it is a hard speech to say that the v­niversall companie of the repro­ba [...]e hath corrupted al Nations.

You take it vp very wise­ly: And yet that they them­selues speake this without any certaine knowledge it appeares by that, which they say Cap. 17. [Page 74] 18. these are their words: if this great Citie be meant of any one Ci­tie, and not of the vniuersall com­panie of the reprobate &c. it is likely to be Olde Rome till the dayes of Constantine. And againe vpon the fift verse of that same Chapter they say: The first persecuting Emperours were but fi­gures of Antichrist, and it may wel be that the great Antichrist shall sit in Rome also as his figures sate in Rome.

Say the Rhemists, that it may verie well bee that Anti­christ shall sit in Rome?

Yea forsooth, looke their owne words.

I haue no skill of that: I neuer heard but that he should be a Iew of the Tribe of Dan, and should sit in Ierusalem.

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That is so vncertaine a fa­ble that (as you see) themselues cannot leane to it, and their speech for vs is plaine enough, it may very well bee (say they) that Antichrist shall sit at Rome. But to proceed in our purpose, this exposition called Communis expositio, is reiected by their own companions. Viega. in Apoca. In hac multa sunt ad quae visio invita & repugnans tra­hitur, so sayes Viega in Apocal. 17.

I thinke they haue reason to say so: but after what man­ner doe they expound Babel?

You shall heare. De Pont. Rom. lib. 2. cap. 2. Bellarmine not onely confesseth Babel is Rome, but proues it by the testi­monie of ancient fathers. In Apo. 14. Ribe­ra thus, Romae conueniunt aptissi­mè omnia quae de Babylone dicun­tur hoc libro, atqueillud imprimis, [Page 76] quod alij conuenire non potest: Sep­tem capita, septem sunt montes. Whatsoeuer in this book is spo­ken of Babel, agrees most pro­perly to Rome, especially that which can agree to none other, the Seuen heads are seuen hils.

That is plaine talke: In­deed I haue heard much shifting about these hils, and one of thē ­selues said to mee that these se­uen hils signifie seauen deadly sinnes, all to this end to denie that this Prophecie points out Rome, but I neuer heard it con­fessed before so clearly.

You may well say it: for the Rhemists charge the Prote­stants with madnes for expoun­ding the Seuen heads seuen hils; they should impute madnesse to their owne fellowes, and not [Page 77] to vs, for they are forced to confesse that this Babel is Rome, and the Seuen heads seuen hils, wherein the whoore sits.

In truth I see they haue the weakest end of the string; some of them denying Babel to be Rome; some of them not only granting, but proouing it.

But because I will hide nothing from you, you shall heare what distinctions they vse: Bellarmine saith, by Babel is meant Ethnica Roma sub Impera­toribus, Ethnique Rome vnder Emperors. Viega againe he saies, In si [...]e cap. 18. Sermo non es [...] de antiquâ illâ Ro­mâ, sed de illâ quae s [...]orebit extre­mo mundi tempore, the speech is not of old Rome, but of Rome as it shall be in the last time of the World: yet hee standes not at [Page 78] this but comes (as Ribera also doth) and takes vp both the o­pinions. In Apocal. 14. Quicquid mali de Româ scribitur in hac Apocalypsi, vel ad tempus illud spectat, quo gentilibus Imperatoribu [...] seruiebat, vel Pon­tificem suum a se ei [...]cerit. What­soeuer euill is spoken of Rome in this Apocalyps pertaines either to that Rome which was subiect to Ethnique Emperours, or to that Rome which will make de­fection from the Bishop of Rome and cast him out of their Citie: for they grant that their Bishop will bee cast out of Rome, that Rome will bee vtterly ruinated, & yet say they euen then when there shall not bee such a thing as Rome, y [...]t their Pope shall be Bishop of Rome: what thinke you of this stuffe? see you not [Page 79] how they reele? some of them saye Rome was Babel, some of them say it will bee Babel; none of them can denie that this Ba­bel spoken of by Saint Iohn, the chiefe seat and Citie of Anti­christ, is Rome.

I thinke it goes very hard with them, when their best Do­ctors can say no more in defence of Rome, but it was Babel, or it will be Babel, that is, either An­tichrist sate there, or will sett there.

I hope you shall thinke much more before you goe: for now I will improue their distin­ction, and let you see it is not Ethnique Rome vnder Empe­rours, nor the Towne of Rome in the last time of the World, that here is called Babel but the [Page 80] whorish Church of Rome gouer­ned by Apostated Popes.

Make that cleare and the cause is wonne.

It is euident S. Iohn pro­phecies of the state of Rome as it will bee in the dayes of Anti­christ, so sayes the Iesuite Viega▪ Haec est quarta visio huius operis; ea (que) illustrissima, & ad Antichristi tempora pertinens. So also sayes the Iesuite Ribera, a ca. 12. ad 21. Est huius libri pars secunda, & iota ad Antichristum, eius (que) tempora pertinet. But the dayes of per­secuting Emperours, were not the dayes of Antichrist: if they [Page 81] so say, they destroy all their owne doctrine concerning An­tichrist, and therefore this pro­phecie of Babel, is not to bee vn­derstood of the Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours. Secondly, Ethnicke Rome as yet had not embraced the Gospell, and was not married with Christ, and therefore cannot be this Whore, which Carthusian their owne man expounds to be An adulter­ous Whore: You shall finde no people in holy Scripture char­ged with spirituall Whoredom, but such as haue beene married with Christ, none can bee Apo­states from the faith, who neuer stoode in the faith, there must bee [...] before [...]. This whoorish Babel then can not be Ethnicke Rome, vnmarried with [Page 82] Christ. Seeing themselues doe grant it is Rome, it must bee Rome once Christian, but now corrupted: once Apostolicke standing in the faith, now Apo­stati [...]ke fallen from the faith. Thirdly, this Whore of Babel hath a cup in her hand full of a­bominations, and the filthines of her fornication [...], wherewith shee makes drunken the inhabi­tants of the earth. By this gol­den cup Berengandus their owne man vnderstands, Documenta er­roribus plena: And so this Babel can not signifie Rome vnder Em­perors, who subdued the world by force of Sword and plaine vi­olence, but must signifie Rome vnder Popes, which hath decei­ued the world by false doctrine and lying myracles. Fourthly, [Page 83] this Babel is called the mother of Whoredomes and abominati­ons in the earth, which not one­ly her selfe hath played the Whoore, corrupting the true worship of God, but hath in­forced her corruptions and su­perstitions vpon oth [...]rs. Now it is knowne that olde Rome sought no more but subiection of bodies, leauing the conscien­ces of people free to any kind of worshippe they pleased: They subdued the Iewes, and forced them to pay tribute; but left them to their owne Religion: yea so farre were they from in­forcing their superstitious wor­ship vpon any nation, that by the contrarie themselues were infected with the superstitions of all nations, as is euident by [Page 84] their Pantheon, which they ere­cted in the honour of all Gods. And so it is not Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours which heere is called the Mother of whoredomes. Carthus. Fiftly, the name of this Babel is mysterium, in quo a­liud cernitur, aliud intelligitur: Quia enim tot simulatis virtuti­bus decoratur, non omnibus mulie­ris huius prauatas innotescet, sed viris ius [...]is & prudentibus. So then by this Babel, some mysti­call enemie is vnderstood, being indeede an enemie, but in shew pretending friendship: and ther­fore called afterward Gog, and not Magog, that is, not an open and plain enemy, as is the Turke: But Gog, a couered enemie: for this cause figured also before by a beast with two hornes, loo­king [Page 85] like a Lambe, but speaking like the Dragon. To this pur­pose sayes IEROME, In Daniel. 11. Simulabit se ducem faederis: And Hilarius, that Antichrist shall bee contrarie to Christ, vnder a [...]orme of fained and hypocriticall godlinesse. And Chrysostome, In Matth. Hom. 49. Antichrist must bee knowne by his doctrine, not by his titles, miracles, nor words of god­linesse. And therefore it is a sil­ly defence of the Iesuites: The Pope (say they) prayers humb­ly to God, and calles himselfe seruus seruorum Dei, therefore is not an aduersarie: for the Que­stion is not what he calles him­s [...]lfe, but what hee is. But to hold vpon this point, it is eui­dent by what which I haue said, that by Babel here is not meant Rome Ethnicke, nor yet Rome [Page 86] which at the last shall rebell (for both these are open enemies) but Rome vnder Popes, a mysti­call enemie. Sixthly, in this Re­uelation, there are two women described; the one Chap. 12. clo­thed with the Sunne, which is CHRIST, hauing on her head twelue Starres for a Garland, (the glorie of the true Church is the doctrine of the twelue A­postles) and vnder her feete the Moone, figuring this mutable world: This woman (as them­selues confesse) represents the true Church. The other wo­man described Chap. 17. is aray­ed in Purple, Scarlet, Gold, and precious stones, voide of inward beautie and chastitie, shee sets forth her selfe with all externall brauerie, that shee may drawe [Page 87] many louers to her. Now (I say) seeing the first woman sig­nifies the true Church (as them­selues confesse) and afterward is called the L [...]mbes wife, why doe they not [...]ee that this who­rish woman must signifie the false Church? And since they grant that Babel is Rome, what else can the whoore of Babel be, but the whoorish Church of Rome? And therefore their owne Doctours expounding that prophecie of Saint Iohn, Babel is fallen, and become an habi­tation of di [...]els: Cap. 13. Ribera expounds it of an externall desolation, ac­c [...]rding to that of [...]say, proph [...] ­cied of the first Babel, The [...]im, and Z [...]m shall leape there. But Viega, Nobis etiam illud dicendum vi [...]etur cum Arethâ, Primasio, [Page 88] Ambrosio, Ansberto, Haimone, ido­lolatriam eius vrbis significari, de­secturam (que), esse Romam a fide, at (que) adcò futuram esse habitationem dae­moniorum ob execranda slagitia, & i [...]olotriae superstitionē, expounds it also of Rome her falling from the faith, which hee sayes is a thing which will be, but we say according to truth is a thing that is done already, the fore­told defection is come, Anti­christ that man of sinne is discouered, God by the breath of his mouth is dayly consu­ming him.

THE FOVRTH DAYES CONFERENCE. Wherein is declared that ROME is the seate of Antichrist.

GOod morrow ( Sir) how doe you to day?

The best I can.

It is most like you haue not rested well this night.

To say the truth; Thin­king on our conference made my rest the lesse.

[Page 90]

It agrees but ill with you to heare the Church of Rome conuicted of Apostasie.

I thinke so indeede, and still will so thinke till ye resolue this question: what is the cause, there being so many VVise and Learned men in the Popes Church, that they cannot see the truth, and follow it?

Whether they see or see not I cannot tell you, but you know what the Apostle sayes. Brethren yee see your calling, 1. Cor. 1.26 not many wise, not many noble, nor mightie men after the flesh are cal­led, but God hath chosen the foolish thinges of the World to confound [...]he wise.

I knowe that is the A­postles saying; but yet I cannot but maruell what should holde [Page 91] them backe from knowledge of the truth.

You shall cease to maruel if you con [...]der one thing.

What is that?

VVhen Christ shewed himselfe to the World, how many of the Nobles, and Lear­ned Rabbins, did know him? Will you find any more among the Noble [...] but Ioseph of Ar [...] ­mathea? Will you find any more among the Learned Pharisies but Nicodemus?

Truly not that I remem­ber,

Was it then thinke you a good argumēt they vsed against Christ? Doth any of the Rulers, or Scribes beleeue in Christ [...], but only this cursed people who knowes not the Law?

[Page 92]

No indeed.

Bee not then moued with the like now. Oh, say the Pa­pists, how many Learned men are of our Religion? Euery man naturall, in things pertaining to eternall life is [...], without a minde, Titus 3.3 till hee bee illuminate by grace: were he in naturall rea­son as quick as Aristotle, or in po­licie as Achitophel, he is but a starke foole till he bee taught of God: and therefore maruell no more that Learned Iesuites can­not know the truth, then when you heare that Learned Iewish Rabbins could not know Christ when he was among them.

The Lorde then make vs thankfull for reuealing the way of life vnto vs, which is hid from so many in the World.

[Page 93]

Amen good Lord. And now for your further confirma­tion consider these testimonies I haue subioyned.

Let no man seduce you by any meanes, for the day of the Lord shall not come vnlesse there come first a reuolt, [...], and the man of sinne bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition, which is an aduersarie, and extolled aboue all which is cal­led God, or that is worshipped: so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himselfe as if he were God 2. Thessal. 2.3. Now the mysterie of iniquitie worketh, only he which now withholdeth will let it till he be taken out of the way.

[Page 94]

What thinke you of this Prophecie.

I haue heard that to bee a falling away from the Roman Empire.

No (Sir) the most iudici­ous, both Ancient, and Recent, expound it to bee a falling from the faith: As for the Ancients see Augustine de Ciuitate Dei [...]ib. 20. Cap. 19. Nulli dubium est eum de Antichristo ista dixisse For the Recents see Aquinas on this place.

But granting it were so, yet this Prophecie is of one sin­gle man and cannot be meant of the Popes of Rome.

No that is also a silly shift: when your Church-men say that the Pope is Christ Vicar, doe they meane any one single Pope?

[Page 95]

No, but the state or suc­cession of Popes.

Very well, and when wee say that the Pope is Christ op­posite, doe wee vnderstand this man, or that man? no truly, but the whole state or regiment of them since their defection.

But I see not how this Prophecie either toucheth the Pope, or the Church of Rome; and if it bee meant of any defe­ction from the faith, it is meant of Luther, Caluine, and such as haue fallen from the Church of Rome.

Compare another Pro­phesie of the same Apostle con­cerning the s [...]me purpose, and see how he expounds himselfe.

Where is that?

Here are his wordes 1. Ti­mothie [Page 94] 4.1. Now the Spirit speakes euidently, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, atten­ding to Spirits of errour, and Do­ctrine of Deuils: and marke how hee subioynes some particular points of their doctrine which shall come in with the Aposta­sie, to wit, that they shall forbid mariage, and command abstinence from meates, which God hath crea­ted to bee receiued with thankesegi­uing. VVhat thinke you now, whether doth this touch them or vs?

I know it cannot concerne you, for you forbid none to ma­rie that cannot containe.

Neither can this Prophe­sie bee cast backe vpon Heresies of the Marcionits, and others neerest the Apostles dayes, as [Page 97] the Iesuites doe to shift this Pro­phesie from themselues: for the Apostles saye, this Apostasie shall fall out in the la [...]t times: And the former Prophesie saies, that the Roman Empire must first bee taken out of the way, then shall the Apostasie worke to the height: as indeede it fell out that the seat of the Empire being translated to Constantino­ple, Chr [...]so [...]t [...] 2. Thes. 2. hem. 4. the Emperour decreased, the Bishop of Rome more and more increased, so that it is not meant of Heretikes neerest the Apo­stles dayes, but of such as shall rise after the decay of the Roman Empire. And who tell mee hath growne by the▪ decay of the Empire? None but the Pope; he hath his Imperial seat, his robes, his crowne, his rents, so that the [Page 94] [...] [Page 97] [...] [Page 98] Emperor, except the name & the double Eagle, hath littl [...] or no­thing of the Empire. And ther­fore Aquinas, who saw what was the meaning of that place, moues the doubt: What shall wee answere (saies he) seeing the Ro­man Empire is decayed, how can we denie bu [...] Antichrist is come? To this he answeres, we must say the Roman Empire is not away, only the Temporall power therof is changed into a Spiritual: what thinke you, is there not good stuffe here?

In truth I thinke their cause the longer I heare you the weaker.

So may you. But yet more to confirme you consider how the Ancient expound this Prophesie, and still cast it vpon the Church of Rome. Irenaeus [Page 99] Lib. 5. speaking of the number of the beasts name six hundreth threescore and sixe, albeit hee plainly shew it is not his diuina­tion, but the accomplishment of the Prophesie which must finde out the number of the name, and albeit he make men­tion also o [...] other names, as E­ [...]an, and Teitan, yet sayes hee sed & [...] valde verisimile est. Tertullian. contra Marcion. Baby­lon apud Ioannem Romanae vrbis figura est, proinde magnae, regno su­perbae & sanctorum Dei debellatri­cis. Tertullian. de resurrectione carnis, see how hee expounds that part of the Prophesie, Only he who now withholds, let till hee be taken out of the way. Donec de me­dio fiat quis nisi Romanus status? c [...]ius abscisio in decem reges Anti-christum [Page 100] superinducet, & tunc re­velabitur iniquus &c. Ambrose in 2. Thessal. 2. Non prius veniet dominus quam regni Romani de­fectio fiat, & appareat Antichri­stus qui interficiet sanctos reddita Romanis libertate sub suo tamen nomine. Et iterum. Post defectum Romani imperij appariturus est Antichristus. Cyril Cateches. 15. Veniet Antichristus quum impleta fuerint tempora Romani imperij. Hilarius contra Auxentium: Anne dubium est in eis esse futurum, Is there any doubt, but Antichrist shall sit in these same temples, and houses, which now ye loue and honour: Item, Sub specie E­uangelicae praedicationis Christo cō ­trarius erit, ibid. This proues, that in the iudgement of Hilari­us, Antichrist should bee a pro­fessor, [Page 101] yea, euen a Preacher of the truth: Primasius in Apocal. cap. 16. Tunc cadet Babylon, quā ­do nouissimè potestatem persequen­di sanctos acceperit; Here also it is cleare that he meanes not old Rome. Do not these places make cleare, that the Apostasie here prophesied should come af [...]er the decay of the Romane Em­pire? and since themselues can not deny but the temporal Em­pire is decayed, how then can they deny the Apostasie?

I thinke iudeede these pla­ces make it cleare: specially that which Ambrose hath wherein I marke these thinges. That first the Empire should decaie and then Antichrist should appeare, and he should restore libertie to the Romans, but vnder his owne [Page 102] name, and not vnder the Empe­rours name.

You haue marked that ve­ry wel: for the Pope hath made the name of Romanes more fa­mous then the Emperours did, and vnder colour of a spirituall Empire, hath made all churche subiect vnto the Church of Rome, and from his name to bee named Papists. Hieron in Daniel, 11. Antichristus simulabit se du­cem foe deris, hoc est, [...]egis, & Testa­menti Dei. And albeit the Pro­phesie of Antichrist was not so cleare to him, & others of these fathers also, as time hath made it to this age; yet expounding these words of the Apostle; He sits in the Temple of God, he saith, this is, Hierosolymis (vt quidam putant) vel in Ecclesiâ vt veriùs [Page 103] arbitramur. quaest. 11. ad Aglasiam. August. de Ciuit. Dei, lib. 20. cap. 19. Rectiûs putant alij dictum la­tinè, sicutest in Graeco: S [...]debit in Templum Dei, quasi ipse cum suis esset Ecclesia Dei. Theophilactus, Haymo, Lombardus, are of the same mind. The Iesuites of Rhemes hauing shewed how ma­ny fathers expound this Temple of Ierusalems Temple, at length distrusting it as a vaine opinion, they set downe this second as more true: That Antichrist, if euer he were of, or in the Church, shall be an Apostata, or runnegate out of the Church, and shall vsurpe vpon it by tyranny, and by challen­ging worship, religion, and gouern­ment thereof: so that he himselfe sh [...]ll bee adored in all the Churches of the world; this is to sit in the [Page 104] Temple of God; if any Pope euer [...]id so, or sh [...]ll do, then let the Ad­ [...]ersaries call him Antichrist. But indeede this their confession whereby they would cleare their Pope, doth plaine soile him: hee sits in the Church by profession, but is gone out of it by Apostasie, and yet vsurpes gouernment ouer it by tiranny; in euery Church he is adored as a God on ear [...]h, hauing power ouer the conscience, excommu­nicating all such from humane societie, as will not be subiect to him. What thinke you of that talke to giue to the Pope? Tu es alter Deus in terris.

Who said that?

It was said to him in the second L [...]erane Councell, by Christopher Marcellus.

[Page 105]

Good sooth it was shame to the flatterer, and a blame to the Pope if he blusht not when he heard it.

Oh, but that is not the worst; his Canonists stile him their Lord God the Pope.

Fie vpon that; will they commit such blasphemie?

There are their owne words: Dic [...]re Dominum Deum nostrum Papam non pot [...]isse s [...]atu­ere, Extrau. Ioh. 22. cap. Cum inter &c. prout statuit, haereticum est. To say, that our Lord God the Pope might haue discerned o­therwise, then he hath discerned is hereticall. And againe, that they make a God of him, these places may let you see: Si Pa­pa suae, Dist. 40. cap. Si Papae, &c. & sraternae salutis negli­gens innumerabiles secum ducat cater [...]atim in Gehennam, huius­modi [Page 106] culpam nullus mortalium prae­sum [...]t redarguere. And againe, Est instar sacrilegij disputare de factis Papae, It is sacriledge to dispute vpon any of the Popes deedes. Dist. [...]0. ca. Non nos in glosa, &c. Or otherwise it is to be said, Quod facta Papae excusantur vt homicidium Sampsonis, furta Hebraeorum, & adulterium Iacobi: That the euill deedes of the Pope are to be excused, as the selfe-murther of Sampson, the theft of the Hebrewes, the adul­terie of Iacob. Is not this to make the Pope a lawlesse man?

I think no lesse then you say.

But what say you to this? Causa 25. quast. [...]. ca. Ideo, &c. Canonibus sacris authoritatem it a praestat vt se illis non subijciat: Hee in such sort giues authori­ty to holy Scriptures, that hee [Page 107] is not subiect to it. And that as Christ did some things against the Law (as when hee touched the Leper) so the Pope may do some things against the Lawe. Summa Angelica de casibus Con. scientiae. D [...] ­ [...]it Papa. And albeit we reade that Ba [...]a [...]m was rebuked of his owne Ass [...], by the which Asse our subiects, by Balaam our Prelates are sig­nified. yet ought not that to be an example to our Subiects to reproue vs.

Indeed I thinke it a meete comparison for him: Let him bee Balaam, and let such as hee rides vpon be Asses, as to mee I thanke God I am quit of him.

Alway by these, and innu­merable more testimonies it is euident, that hee is the lawlesse man that exaltes himself aboue all that is called God, and that [Page 106] his blinded captiues worshippe him as God. But wee will pro­ceede to the rest of the testimo­nies. Greg. lib. 9. Epist. 30. Fi­den [...]èr dico quòd quisquis se vni­uersalem vocat sacerdotem, aut vo­cari de [...]iderat in elatione suâ, An­tichristum praecurrit. What think you, doth not Gregorie heere blacke the faces of his successors with a visible note of Anti-christ? Who, but they are so called?

They will say he speakes that of Iohn Bishop of Constan­tinople, who at that time vsur­ped this stile.

Yea, Dis [...]. 99. ca. Ecce, &c. but when Eulogius Patriarch of Alexandria, gaue that same stile to Gregorie Bi­shop of Rome; hee did sharpely reprooue him for it. Recedant [Page 107] verba quae vanitatem instant, & charita [...]em vulnerant. But hee hath yet a clearer place: Rex su­perbiae propè est, & quod dici nesas est, sacerdotum et exercitus praepa­ratur, li. 4. Epist. 38. Sybilla sayes this King shal be [...], Oraculorum [...]ap. 8. that is White-headed, and shall be cal­led by a name much like Pon­tus: Or otherwise [...], ha­uing many Heades or many Crownes: Here hee hath one marke from his head, an other from his name: both of these agree to the Bishoppe of Rome, who weareth solemnely on his head a white Myter of Siluer a­dorned with three Crownes and precious stones, Ibid. and in La­tine is named Pontifex. And a­gaine shee sayes, that the grea­test terrour and furie of his Em­pire; [Page 110] and the greatest woe that he shall worke, shall bee by the bankes of Tyber.

The ninth hundred yeare, Thetgandus Episcopus Treuirensis Pontificem Romanum Antichri­stum, & lupum vocat, & Romam Babylonem: Cùm sis seruus seruo­rum, dominus dominantium esse contendis, libidine dominandi in praeceps [...]bis, quicquid tibilibet, li­cet, fucus (que), factus es Christianis. There hee calles the Bishop of Rome Antichrist, a Wolfe, a v­surper of domination, a decei­uer of Christ [...]ndome, and Rome he calles Babylon: And the like at that same time was testified [Page 111] by Guntherus Episcopus Coloni­ensis ad Nicolaum Pontificem Ro­manum. Tu pontificis personam praete fers, at tyrannum agitas, sub cultu pastoris lupu [...] sentimus, titu­lus parentem mentitur, tu te factis Iouem esse ostentas; quum sis ser­uus seruorum, dominus dominan­tium esse contendis. Epist. 3. Bernard saith, Bestia illa in Apocalypsi, cui datum est osloquens blasphemias, & bel­lum gerens cum sanctis, Petri ca­thedram occupat, tanquam leo pa­ratus ad praedam. The beast spo­ken of in the Reuelation, hauing a mouth speaking blasphemies, and which Warres against the Saints, is now gotten into Pe­ters Chaire, as a Lion prepared for his prey: What thinke yee of these words?

What should I thinke? for [Page 110] my owne part I maruaile that the Pope did not burne Bernard for an hereticke.

So you may: But heare yet mo [...]e. Io [...]chimus Abbas, who liued three hundred yeres since, saith Antichristus iamdu­dum natus est Romae, & altiùs ex­tolletur in sede Apostolicá. Anti­christ long since is borne in Rome, and shall bee aduanced yet higher in the Apostolicke seate. Franciscus Petrarcha Arch­decon of Parma, who liued in the thousand three hundreth and fiftie yeare, Epist. 5.14, 17, 18, 19, &c. Compares the Pope to Iu­das, who betrayed Christ with a kisse, his Clergie to the I [...]wes, who said to him, Aue Rex Iudaeorum: His Prelates to the Phari [...]ies, [...]ho in mockerie clothed him with Pu [...] ­ple, [Page 113] and after crucified him. And againe, Denie it now if thou canst? That thou art shee whom S. Iohn saw in the spirit sitting vpon many waters; Thou art shee and none o­ther, that Babylon the mother of the whoredomes of the earth, drun­ken with the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus; thou art shee which hast made all Kings of the earth drun­ken with the Cups of thy poyson. In the thousand and three hun­dreth yeare, lib. 2. cap.5. In Sy­nodo Reginoburgensi habita est haec oratio [...] quodam Episcopo contra pontificem Romanum. Sub Ponti­ficis maximi titulo, pastoris pelle, lupum sae [...]is [...]mum (nisi caeci simus) sentimus: Romani slamines arma in omnes habent Christianos, au­dendo, fallendo, & bella ex bellis serendo: magni facti oues truci­dant, [Page 114] occidunt pacem, concord [...]am terris depellunt, intestina bella, do­mesticas seditiones ab inferis elici­unt, indiès magis ac magis omnium vires debilitant, vt omnium capiti­bus insultent, omnes deuorent, vni­uersos in seruitutem redigant, &c. Ingentia loquitur, quasi verò Deus esset: noua consilia sub pectore vo­lutat, vt nouum sibi constituat im­perium, leges commutat, suas san­cit: contamin [...]t, diripit, spoliat, fraudat, occidit perditus ille homo, quem Antichristum vocare solent, in cuius fronte co [...]tumeliae nomen scriptum est: Deus sum, errare non possum: in templo Dei sedet; longè, late (que), dominatur. In the thou­sand and foure hundreth yeare, lib. 1. cap. 4. Iohannes vicesimus tertius, wrote vnto the Oriental Church an Epistle, declaring [Page 115] that there was but one Christi­an Church onely, and that hee was head thereof, and the Vicar of Christ: The Grecians wrote backe to him this answere. Po­tentiam tuam summam erga sub [...]i­tos tuos firmiter credimus, super­biam tuam summam tolerare non possumus, auaritiam expl [...]re non valemus: Diabolus tecum quia Do­minus nobiscum. Thy great po­wer ouer thy Subiects we firm­ly beleeue, thy surpassing pride we can not tolerate, thy auarice wee are not able to satisfie: the diuell is with thee, for the Lord is with vs.

God be mercifull to vs.

Amen. Now (Sir) I must craue your licence, for some friends are attending mee, with whome I appointed to meete this houre.

[Page 116]

Good reason, but before you goe, I would fain he are an answer to two questions, which commonly they demand.

Which are those?

The one is: Where was your Church before Luther? the other: Are all our fathers damned?

With a very good will. But if you please, deferre the conference concerning them till to morrow.

Let it be so, now the Lord bee with you.

THE FIFTH DAYES CONFERENCE. Wherein the common question of the Aduersaries is aunswered: Where was your Church before LVTHER?

NOw ( Sir) you remember you propoūded two questions to me yesternight.

It is very true, and I would gladly heare your answere to [Page 118] them, for▪ my further resoluti­on: What thinke you then, be­cause you call Papistrie heresie, are you of that minde that all our fathers are damned, & that no Papist can be saued?

I am not to iudge of mens persons: many are called Papists who know not what Papistrie meanes, and many liue Papists who dare not die Papists, or if so they doe, they know not what they doe. But Papistrie it selfe, I affirme it is a pernicious doctrine, yea as the Apostle cals it, a doctrine of diuels, killing the Soules of them who beleeue it: But this is the second of your questions, which we will reserue till the next day.

Let it be so. What then say you to the first? Where was [Page 109] your Church before Luther?

Euen where our doctrine was, sometime in one Countrie, sometime in an other, as it plea­sed God in his wise dispensati­ [...]n, who caries the light of his Gospell, as he doth the Sunne, [...]hrough the World, to illumi­nate Nations at s [...]uerall times therewith according to his will.

That is a faire Generall; but will yee tell vs, who were these? What Countrie people? What Doctors, who taught as yee teach?

Looke the Churches of Asia, Asricke, and of Europe, consider them as they were be­fore the mysterie of iniquitie came to the hight, and you shal see that they all had the same doctrine, and forme of a Church [Page 120] that we haue in all substantiall points pertaining to Religion.

But you are not able to name one before Luther, teach­ing in all things as he did.

This is a peece of Sophi­strie, whereby your deceiuers blind the ignorant.

How so, should not the teachers of the truth agree in al things in one harmonie?

I grant they should, and thanks be to God, they doe al­so in al substantial things which are Articles of our faith. But is this a good reason: because some Doctors in some opinions differ, whereof men may bee ignorant and saued neuerthe­lesse, that therefore these Do­ctors teach no truth, and their Churches are no true Churches?

[Page 121]

That seemes to bee hard indeed.

You haue reason for you so to thinke: for in one age Vi­ [...]tor with the Church in the West was in a different opinion from Policrates, and the Chur­ches of the East; and Ierome had his owne discordance with Au­gustine, against the exposition of the commandement, Thou shalt beare no false witnesse, in that question de mendacio: and the first Fathers of the Primitiue Church were Chiliasts; shall it thereupon follow, that because in this point, they taught not in all things as we doe, that there­fore they were not a Church?

It is no reason.

Cyprian in the point of re­baptising, taught not as Corne­lius; [Page 122] what of that? will it follow that hee was not a faithfull Pa­stor, or the Church of Carthage was not a true Church?

It followes not indeed.

Why then doe you vrge me to giue you one before Lu­ther or Caluin, who in all points taught as we teach. The Do­ctors of the Church both anci­ent and recent, are men subiect to infirmities; for no man vpon earth, hath his vnderstanding perfect, whereof it comes to passe, that in some things one of them differs from an other: But as to the Articles of the faith, and substance of Christian religion, whereby comes salua­tion; sure it is Tertullian and Cy­prian, Ambrose, A [...]gustine, Luther and Caluin haue all deliuered [Page 123] o [...]e doctrine, and did teach the way of God truly.

The [...] you thinke the Fa­thers of the Primitiue Church were of your Religion.

I think s [...] indeed, & hope to die in that same faith where­ [...] they liued and died.

It would bee thought strange to heare that in Italie, that the Doctors of the Primi­tiue Church were of the Pro­testants Religion.

No maruell it be strange there, where Truth is a stran­ger: but this answere was giuen you and them both, by a wor­thy Doctor of our Church and wee yet stand to it: Patres in maximis sunt nostri, in multis va­rij, [...]n minimis vestri. Such Fa­thers as haue written before vs, [Page 124] and you both in greatest things are ours, in many thinges are doubtfull, in smallest thinges they are yours.

Well, I shall remem­ber that (God willing): but in the dayes of Papistrie, wherewith you say the world was blinded, where was your Church?

Answere me but an other question, and it shall resolue you.

What is that?

Your Doctors say, that when Antichrist shall come, the Church shall [...]lie to the desert, that is, as themselues expound it: The Church shall bee without publike state of regiment, Rhemists. Reuel. 12. and open free exercise of holy functions, nei­ther shall it bee unknowne to the [Page 125] faithfull which follow it; as this day may bee seene the like by the Church of Romane Catholiques in many parts of England.

What doth that helpe you?

Very much: that which they themselues say, will bee done, wee say is done: Anti­christ hath alreadie chased the Church to the wildernesse, and so oppressed it, that for a time it had no publike state of regi­ment, nor open free exercise of holy functions: yet was it not vnknowne to the faithfull that followed it, nor to the enemies that persecuted it, as this day may bee seene by the Church of Christian Catholikes in ma­ny parts of France.

Will ye make that cleare, [Page 126] and I thinke you haue wonne much.

What greater clearenesse can you craue? If this answere bee good to cleare the Popes Church, when they say it will bee obs [...]ured by Antichrist, and yet be: is it not as good to iu­stifie our Church, when we say it hath beene obscured by An­tichrist, and yet was?

The answere is good e­nough, only if you can, I would haue you qualifie it more par­ticularl [...].

There is not one age since the dayes of Christ vnto this day, wherein I can not point forth men, preaching and pro­fessing as wee doe: but because your doubt is specially of the time of Papistry, I will let you [Page 127] see it is a needlesse question for the Popes Church to demand of vs, where our Church then was? for they found vs alwaies in their teeth before euer Luther or Caluin was borne.

Make that good.

Reme [...]us a Popish Inqui­sitor, R [...]. cap. 27. who liued more then three hundred yeeres agoe, speaking of the poore men of Lyons, and calling them in contempt Val­denses, Leonistae, sayth they were more pernitious to the Church of Rome, then all other sects fo [...] three causes: First, because it hath beene of longer continuance: for some say this sect hath endured since the Apostles times. The se­cond cause is, because it is more ge­nerall: for there is almost no land in the which this Sect doth not [Page 128] creepe. The third cause, for that all other sectes doe bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blas­phemies against God; but this Sect of Leonists hath a great shew of godlinesse, because they liue iustly before men, and beleeue all thinges well concerning God, and all the Articles which are contained in the Creede, onely they blaspheme & hate the Church of Rome. Now there is the testimony of an ene­my making answer for vs, which may serue to stop the mouthes of all our enemies from deman­ding of vs any more, Where was your Church before Luther?

I, but hee calles them a Sect, and saies they blasphemed the Church.

So the Priests of the Iews called the Church of Christians, [Page 129] a Sect of Nazarits, Act. 24.5. What is that to the matter? yet he grants they are such a Sect, as first, had beene from the be­ginning: secondly, had beene in all Countries, & thirdly, was honest in lise, & sound in faith: saue onely that they helde the Church of Rome to be the whore of Ba [...]el. And that yet this pre­iudice which you haue concei­ued of our Church may bee further remoued out of your mind; I pray you consider this: Think you not, that with good reason we may affirme that we are in communion with them, who haue taught the same do­ctrine that we teach? if our do­ctrine was in former ages, you will not deny that our Church was then also.

[Page 130]

That can not bee denied.

Well then, if you please, name mee any controuersie of religion, concerning any Arti­cle of faith▪ betweene vs and the Papists thi [...] day, and you shall see that the ancient fathers take our part in it.

That is strange, for they repose their chiefest strength & trust in the ancient fathers.

Bragge what they will it is true, I say they may well boast in the drosse of fathers & decke their errors with it, but wee shall bring you their finest gold. Name you the controuer­sie, & you shall trie that which I say to bee a truth.

There are so many con­trouersies among you, that I know not which of thē to name first.

[Page 131]

Then will it please you to take a view of these, which I haue gathered for my own pri­uate vse?

With a very good will: let me see what they are.

They are here in a little s [...]role, and I haue collected thē for my owne confirmation in the faith; for, as first of all I learned the way of saluation in the Scriptures, so finding that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church exponed the Scripturs, conformable to the doctrine of our teachers, I was greatly ther­in confirmed: for these are the two great proppes of our faith, which Vincentius giues vs a­gainst all heresie, cap▪ 2.

You haue reason for you▪ for if your Doctrine be so war­ranted [Page 132] both by diuine autho­rity of God in his word, and humane testimony of the best Doctors of the ancient Church, they are to bee iudged most vn­worthy that make contradicti­on to you.

Well, that I may bee as good as my word, there they are, I leaue them with you, that you may reade them at your owne leasure.

I thanke you for them, and because I am not to tarrie in this Towne, let met haue (I pray you) a copie of them with mee, that I may reade thē at leasure.

So long as you are in the Towne you may bee doing, o­therwise, if occasion serue you not, as soone as I can prouide a [Page 133] copy of them for my self, I shall send you this to any place you please to appoint.

Let it bee so, and I shall God willing put you in mind of it.

THE SIXTH DAYES CONFERENCE. Wherein an other Question com­monly obiected by the Aduersa­ries is answered: Seeing you can­not denie that your fathers were Papists, what thinke you, are they all damned or not? And if they be not damned, why may not we be of their Religion.

WElcome yet (Sir) I see you are not wearie, to take paines with me.

[Page 135]

No in truth, it is no paine but pleasure vnto me, if by any meanes I may be an instrument to doe you good.

I thanke you for it: Now what say you to our Question, Are all our fathers damned? Or [...]f not, may it not serue vs to be [...]f their Religion?

That is but a subtile que­ [...]tion wher [...]by Iesuites drawe [...]imple people to a liking of Pa­pistrie; because forso [...]t [...] some [...]f their f [...]thers liued, and dyed in it as they alledge.

And why, thinke you it not a good reason?

Not indeede [...] for some times I find GOD forbids his people to be as their fathers were: Z [...]ch 1. where our Fath [...]rs haue forsa­ken the Religion of the f [...]rst [Page 136] Fathers wee should not follow them.

That was sufficiently cleared in our first Conference.

It was so, yet you force mee to remember it. But now before I come to the point: I will tell you a prettie Storie I haue read concerning this mat­ter.

Let mee heare it I pray you.

I read that a certaine Duke of Frisland named Raboldus, a­bout the yeare of our LORD nine hundreth, being perswaded (as hee pretended) to embrace Christianitie, as he went to bee baptized and had the one of his feet in the water, he demanded of the Bishops If all his Forefa­thers were damned? the Bishops [Page 137] answered more rashly then wisely, they were all damned: whereupon the Duke pulled backe his feete againe, saying, Then I will also bee damned with them. Thinke you this a good answere?

No indeede I thinke it a mad answere.

Yet the same is the poy­son wherewith your Iesuits sub­tilly infect the hearts of simple ones, that they should rather choose to be damned with their Fathers th [...]n saued without them.

But will you say to vs as these Bishops said to him, That all our Fathers are damned?

Nay that wil I not; iudge­ment of election and reproba­tion pertaines to the Lord, their [Page 138] persons I leaue: but the doctrine of Papistrie I am sure is deadly, and bringes damnation to the soules of men.

Then you will not giue iudgment of their persons.

No indeed: for, as to their persons▪ I know many this day are so called, who know not the Doctrine of Papistrie; and, as to them who haue liued before vs, howsoeuer in their life they professed Papistrie, yet in their death they were forced to seeke comfort in our Religion.

That is strange that you will say many of our Fathers died in your Religion.

Yet it is true, as I will let you see by a little forme of visi­tation of the sicke, vsed at that time when Antichrists darke­nesse [Page 139] was greatest, to wit, in the eleuenth hundred yeare, for so the Church-men spake to the sicke: Fateris te [...]am malè vixisse vt meritis tuis pae [...] aeterna [...]ebe [...] ­tur? Doest thou not acknow­ledge that thine euill life d [...] ­serues eternall d [...]ath? The dis­eased answered, E [...]iam, ye [...]: The other▪ still inquired, Paenitet [...]e horum? Repentest thou th [...]se sinnes? The other answered E­tiam, yea I doe: still he inquire [...], Credis quò [...] pro te mortu [...]s [...]t do­minus Iesus? Beleeuest thou that Iesus died for thee, and that thou canst not bee saued but by his death? The other answeres, I doe so indeede. Then concludes the Preacher this way: Age ergò, dum in te superest anima, in h [...]c so­lâ mortetotam fuluciam tuam con­stitue, [Page 140] in nullâ aliâ re habe as fidu­ciam, huic mortito [...]um te commit­te, hac solate totum contegne, hâc morte tetotum inuolue. Et si domi­nus deus voluerit te iudicare, dic, Domine mortem domini nostri obijcio inter me & tuum iudicium, aliter tecum non contendo. Goe to then, so long as thy Soule is in thee, in this onely death of Christ place thou thine whole confidence, tr [...]st not in any o­ther thing, commit thy selfe al­together vnto this death, with this death only couer thy selfe, in it onely inuolue thy selfe: And if the Lord God will iudge thee, then say to him, O Lord, I haue nothing to lay betw [...]ene me and thy iudgement, but the death of the Lord Iesus, other­wise I contend not with thee. [Page 141] See you not here first, that they warned their people to prouide for themselues so long as they are in the body, and feede them not with a vaine hope, as the Romish Doctors doe their peo­ple: For the present they send them to a place they call Pur­gatorie, but promise to bring them againe out of it; they first suffering paines there, and ei­ther themselues, or their frinds making due payment for them on Earth.

In good sooth that is a comfortlesse, and (I may say) a cousning kind of doctrine.

Wel, see you not againe a renouncing of all other merites; and of all satisfactions to bee made by suffering the paines of Purgatorie or otherwise. And [Page 142] thirdly see you not that the Pa­stor teacheth, and the people professeth a sure confidence, & no dubitation, in Christs bloud onely.

I see that clearely.

Then I say these men might well die w [...]th the name of Papist [...], but they died not with the doctrine of Papists: for they renounced all me [...]ites, both their own, and any others, and onely rested vpon the me­ri [...]es of Christ.

But what will you say of them who haue died with all the opinions of Papistrie?

I will answere that as Cy­prian answered the like when it was demanded of him. An dam­nat [...] sunt maiores nostri, qui hun [...] vel illum articulum non intellexe­runt? [Page 143] Were all our Fathers damned who vnderstood not this, or that Article of faith? he answered, Potens est Dominus misericordiâ suá indulgentiam da­re, non tamen q [...]ia semel erratum est, ideo semper errandum est. God is able of his great mercy to giue indulgence, but yet there is no reason, that wee should al­way [...]s [...]rr [...], because they once did erre.

In truth that is a very modest answere.

But heare you what fur­ther he saith: Si quis ex Anteces­soribus nostris, vel ignoranter, vel simpliciter non hoc obseruanit, & tenuit quod nos Dominus exemplo suo docuit, potest simplicitatieius de indulgentiâ Domini venia conce­di; nobis vero non poterit ignosci, [Page 144] quia à Domino admoniti & instru­cti sumus; If any of our forefa­thers, either of ignorance, or simplicity hath not holden and obserued that which the Lord hath taught vs, to doe by his example, there may bee mercie granted to his simplicity out of Gods indulgence: but we can­not be forgiuen, who now are otherwise instructed & admo­nished by the Lord.

That answer I see is more sharp, and yet most reasonable; many things are excusable in the night, that are not tolerable in the day: The seruant that knows his M [...]sters will, and do [...]h it not, is worthy of double stripes.

And I am glad you see it, and I would many more had their eyes open to see it, who [Page 145] thinke Papistry now tolerable in the dayes of light, as it was in the dayes of darkenesse: it was a fault then, for euen the seruāt who knowes not his Masters will shall be stricken; but it is a double fault now, for hee, who knowes his Masters will, and does the contrary, shall haue double s [...]ripes.

Then I see you will not giue out, iudgement vpon the persōs of Papists, whether they bee saued or damned.

Indeed I will not, and that for two causes: first, be­cause, (as I haue said) many are Papists by name, which are no Papists: some of ignorance, some of vaine glory, some of po­licy to get themselues the more credite. And as to these who are [Page 146] infected indeed with the here­sies of Papistrie; yet is it vn­certain if they shall so conti­nue, for the Lord is ma [...]uellous in working with such as belong to his election, that howsoeuer for the pr [...]sent wee see them in sinne and ignorance, ye [...] know wee not what they will be [...] so many secret wayes [...]th the Lord in time of sickn [...]sse, yea, in the very howre of d [...]ath to draw the h [...]arts of m [...]n toward [...] himselfe, which are hid from vs, that it w [...]re but presumption to iudge of an other mans saluati­on or reprobation.

Indeed I commēd you, for I thinke you speak with that so­briety which becom [...] a christiā.

And yet whatsoeuer I haue said concerning the per­sons [Page 147] of Papists, there is further to bee saide of Papistrie it selfe: that it is a doctrine so full of he­resies, so directly contrary to the doctrine of the Gospell, that I dare say, a man beleeuing all the points of Papistrie, and per­seuering in them [...]o the end without repentance cannot bee saued.

Now that is the point, & I pray you make it cleare.

It is cleare by these places following, which will shew you that Papistrie is a doctrine of Diuels, a plague of God, and a iust punishment laied on repro­bate men for their sinnes, and a forerunner of the wrath to come.

Good sooth I quake to heare this.

[Page 148]

You shall see them al par­ticularly qualified: and first there is a Prophesie made by the Apostle of the defection which was to come, in these words; Now the spirite speakes e­uidently, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, gi­uing heed to the spirites of error & doctrine of Diuels: which speake lies in hipocrisie, hauing their con­science burned with an hote yron, forbidding to marrie, and comman­ding to abstaine from meates, &c. Perceiue you not here, that the doctrine which forbids mariage and commands abstinence from meates, is called a doctrine of di­uels?

Very well, but that is meant of heretikes, which were soone after the Apostles daies, [Page 149] as Ebio [...]its, Marcionits, &c.

Nay, that is a sillie shift, for he saieth, these teachers shal come in the latter times; and the departure from the faith, wher­of hee prophesieth, was not to come till the fall of the Roman Empire: but in the daies of Ebi­on, Marcion, &c. the Roman Em­pire was in great glorie.

But if that bee meant of any Apostasie in the later times it is of your sect (will they say) that hath fallen frō the church of Rome.

It cannot be meant of vs: for wee neithe [...] forbid mariage, nor command abstinence from meates for conscience sake.

That is verie true: but may not the Church for some causes command abstinencie frō meats?

[Page 150]

Yes, for Prayer and deuo­tion, and that for a time onely, but not because any meate is vncleane, or one meat is holier then an other▪ as they thinke their Chartrouse Monkes more holy that neuer eate flesh, then others are: Durand. lib. 6. cap. de alijs ieiu­ [...]ijs. and why forsooth? because flesh and not fish was accursed in the daies of Noah.

Indeed that seemes to be somewhat superstitious.

Well, I will enter into no more particulars concerning this question. It is cleare, these are two points of Papisticall do­ctrine, called by the Apostle do­ctrine of Diuels; So I proceede, There shall arise false Christs, and false Prophets, and shall shew great signes and wonders, so that if it were possible they should deceiue [Page 151] the very elect, Mat. 24.24. The comming of Antichrist by the wor­king of Satan with all power, and signes, and lying wonders, 2. Thess. 2.9. And in a [...] deceiuablenesse of vnrighteousnes among them that perish, because they receiued not the truth [...]hat they might bee saued, i­bid. ver. 10. And therefore God shall send them strong delusions, that they should belieue lies, verse 11. That all they might be damned, which belieued not the truth, but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse, ver. 12. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship the beast, whose names are not written in the Book [...] of life of the Lamb which was slain from the beginning. Reuel. 13.8. And he deceiued them which dwelt on earth by the signes which were permitted him to doe, ver. 14. If [Page 152] any man worshippe the beast, &c. the same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God, and shall bee tor­mented in fire and brimstone. Reu. 14.9.10. Goe out of Babel my people, that yee bee not partakers of her sinnes, and receiue not of her plagues. These places make cleare vnto you, that it is onelie the reprobate, worldly-minded called therefore dwellers on the earth, whose names are not written in the book of life, chil­dren of perdition; it is only they (I say) who are fullie and finally deceiued with the spirit of An­tichrist, and that in Gods righ­teous iudgement are giuen o­uer to belieue lies, because they receiued not the loue of the truth: What thinke yee of these?

[Page 153]

In truth I am astonished to heare these fearefull places.

This is yet further cleared by Augustine, who expounding that place of the Apostle 2. Thes. 2. Adoccultu [...] Dei iudicium per­tinet quòd impij ab Antichristo feducuntur: It pertaines to Gods secret iudgement that the wic­ked are seduced by Antichrist: Seducentur qui seduci merebuntur, pro eo quòd dilectionem veritatis non receperunt. They shall bee deceiued who haue deserued to bee deceiued, because they re­ceiue not the loue of the truth: and yet more feareful is the sen­tence, which he subioynes, Iu­dicati seducentur, & seducti iudi­cabuntur: when they are iudged they shall be deceiued, and because they were deceiued they [Page 154] shal be iudged ouer againe: they are first iudged by the iudge­ment of God, secretly iust, and iustly secret, whereby now hee punisheth the sinnes of men, deliuering them to the Spirit of errour, that receiued not the loue of his truth: and because they were deceiued they shall be iudged againe in that last and manifest iudgment to bee made by Christ Iesus, who was vniust­ly iudge himselfe, but most iustly shall iudge the World. This Commentarie makes it cleare, that Papistrie is not one­ly a sinne, but a present punish­ment of God inflicted on man for sinne, specially for contempt of the Gospell; and a procure­ment of that fearefull wrath that is to come, which if it were [Page 155] considered, men would not e­steeme Papistrie so indifferent a thing as they doe▪

God be mercifull to them who yet are blinded with these errours, and Lord make mee thankefull who hath begunne to deliuer mee from that darke­nesse; the Lord illuminate mee more and more with his light, that I may know his way, and may receiue grace to follow it.

Amen: But now I remem­ber, I promised before to de­clare vnto you, that Papistrie impugnes both the Person and offices of Christ, and so in effect denies that Iesus the Sonne of Marie is the Christ.

That is most strange.

It is indeede, and yet it is true, as you shal [...] perceiue if you [Page 156] goe through the principall Ar­ticles of our faith. And first to begin at Christ person, that of many wee may touch a few, We beleeue that Iesus Christ is both God and man.

And who denies that?

You know that old Ar­riu [...] denied his Diuinitie, and now Papistes denie his huma­nitie.

How can you say that?

Because they worshippe and adore a Christ, who is not come in the flesh: To cleare this, I pray you consider that Canon of the Apostles, 1. Ioh. 4. Beloved, beleeue not euery spirit, but trie the spirits if they be of God: because many false Prophets are gone out into the World. In this the spirit of God is knowne; Euerie [Page 157] spirit that confesseth Iesus Christ to haue come in the flesh is of God. There is a golden rule for vs and them both, and marke there the opposition, Euerie spirit that saith otherwise, is the spirit of An­tichrist.

Let it be so: What is that against Papists?

Yea, it is against them di­rectly, for the word teacheth vs to worship Christ, Conceiued of the holy Ghost, horne of the Virgine Marie: But they worshippe Christ created by a Priest, not conceiued by the holy Ghost; a Christ whose fleshe is made of Breade by Transubstantiation, whereby they destroy the Arti­cle of his Incarnation.

But they say it is the same Christ who was borne of the Virgin Marie.

[Page 158]

If it bee the same Christ, then must they grant that his flesh is not created of bread: for that Christ borne of the Virgin Marie was made flesh of the seed of Dauid by the operation of the Holy Ghost, but this Christ whom they worship in the Masse hath his flesh made of bread by Transubstantiation, and they are not ashamed to call their Priest for this worke Creatorem sui Creatoris, a Crea­tour of his Creatour.

But saith not our Lord that the Bread giuen in the Sa­crament is his Bodie?

Yea indeede, and so wee beleeue it is: for it is no naked nor common bread that hoe giues vs there the giuing of that bread, It is [...], the [Page 159] Communion of his blessed bo­die.

But if it bee Bread, how can it be his body?

It is needlesse to demaund how? Since he hath said it; but I beleeue it is his body.

But may not Christ of his omnipotent power transubstan­tiate bread into his body?

And I pray you, may not Christ of his omnipotent pow­er, and truth, giue mee his body, except hee turne bread into his bodie?

I dare not say so.

And you haue reason: The Papists charge vs that wee denie Gods omnipotencie, but the fault is theirs; they denie his omnipotencie, when they say hee can not giue vs his body [Page 160] in the Sacrament, except hee make his body of bread. Doe they not here limit the Lord?

Well I see it is great wise­dome to ponder euery thing we beleeue in the ballance of Gods word, I wold not haue thought there had beene suc [...] [...]lasphe­mie against the person of Christ in that Doctrin of Transubstan­tiation as now I see that Canon of the Apostle declares plainly.

You may ioyne to this another testimonie of the Apo­stle Hebrewes 13. Iesus Christ ye­sterday, this day, and the same for euer.

What will that make a­gainst them?

That they are blinde to worship a Christ this daie, who was not a Christ yesterday: for [Page 161] you know they grant them­selues that before consecration the bread is not Christ.

It is true indeed.

Then you may perceiue it is but an artificiall Christ made by man whom they worshippe, and not [...]he true Christ. Thus you see how they are iniurious to his person, for the which cause I said to you, that Papists by necessitie of consequence, denie Iesus the sonne of Marie to bee the Christ. Now to his Offices, they are all comprised vnder the name Christ, for he is the anoynted King, Prophet, and Priest of his Church.

And they will grant all that vnto you.

I know in word they will, but in effect they take his Of­fices [Page 162] from him?

How can that be?

You shall see how: what thinke you is the office of a Pro­phet?

To teach.

You say verie well, and for this cause Christ is called the great Prophet raised vp among his brethren: And the great Angell of the counsell of God, who came into the World to reueile per­fectly vnto the Church the will of God concerning mans salua­tion, and Gods worship: so that now once for all God hath spo­ken to vs in these last dayes by his sonne, and we haue not to expect from any other any fur­ther declaration of his will.

I thinke no man wil denie that.

[Page 163]

You shall heare how it is denied, if first I make the point more clear vnto you: you know that the father proclaimed from Heauen, first at Iordan, then at mount Tabor, This is my welbelo­ued sonne in whom I am well plea­sed, heare him. See you not here how we are plainly commaun­ded to learne Gods will concer­ning our Saluation from the Sonne?

Yea I see that, and it is good reason.

Then if you will come and heare what the Son saies, you shal see that as the Father sends vs to the Sonne, so the Sonne sends vs to the Scriptures: if we would haue eternall life search the Scriptures, and he witnesseth plainely Iohn 17.8. The wordes [Page 164] which thou gauest mee, I gaue them, meaning to his Disciples. Where againe if you looke to the Disciples words: The Scrip­ture (sayes Saint Paul) is able to make the man of God perfect, and therefore hee protests Act. 20 that he taught nothing but Mo­ses and the Prophets, and yet that hee had deliuered to them the whole counsell of God. See you what a comfortable harmonie is here: The Father bids vs heare the Sonne; the Sonne protests the wordes the Father gaue him, hee gaue to his Dis­ciples; and both of them sends vs to the Scripture, as contei­ning the whole counsell of God concerning our Saluation.

I see all that clearly.

Then what spirit are they [Page 165] led with that dare say, It had beene good for the Church the Scripture had neuer beene.

Who dare say that?

I haue heard with mine eares defenders of Papistrie say it: and the positions of their owne Doctors no lesse blasphe­mous are extant to bee seene: Lectio Scripturae non, [...]antùm est invtilis, sed pernitio samultis mo­dis; the reading of Holy Scrip­ture is not only vnprofitable; but pernicious. And therefore they wil not let the people read nor serch the Scripture, though Christ commanded: so to do [...]: and instoade of Scripture they intrude on the Church their owne decrees, and other tradi­tions, which they make of equal authoritie with the Scripture. [Page 166] Thus you see how they take a­way Christs Propheticall office. Now to come to his Priestly of­fice: you know the Priests office was twofold, first hee ought to sacrifice for the people, & next to pray for them.

And they acknowledge both these, that Christ hath of­fered himselfe in a propitiatory sacrifice for our sinnes, and that hee still makes intercession for v [...] in heauen.

I, but they so acknowledge it, that in both these offices they ioyne others with Christ, and so make him not a full and per­fect Sauiour of his people by himselfe, but a halfe-Sauiour in part.

I vnterstand not that.

I shall make it cleare to [Page 167] you. There is the testimony of th [...] Word concerning the suffi­ciency of the merite of Christs bloud. The bloud of Christ his sonne clenseth vs from all sinne,

They will not be against that.

But they are when they make this distinction, that prin­cipally Christs bloud clenseth from sinne▪ but secondarily there must be other things with it to clens [...] sinne: as works of satis­faction in this life, and fire of Purgatorie in the life to come. By these also according to their own [...] doctrine▪ sinne is clensed.

For my own part I would alwaies: reserue to Christ his owne glorie, which I know hee will not giue to any other▪

You haue reason for you▪ [Page 168] and you shall thinke it so much the more if you consider with me these two testimonies.

What are those?

The first is Heb. 1.3. That Christ by himselfe hath made pur­gation of our sinnes.

What will you gather of that place?

A most necessary obserua­tion for clearing this contro­uersie, to wit, that the purging power of sinne is person [...]ll to Christ, he hath done it, by him­selfe▪ the vertue and benef [...] of i [...] hee communicates to others that repent and belieue, bou [...]e meriting power, by which God is reconciled▪ and his iust [...]c [...] sa­tisfied, he transfers not, n [...]ither to any mans person nor any o­ther thing beside.

[Page 169]

Surely, according to my vnderstanding that is a truth, wherin euery Christian should rest, for it is most comfortable to the conscience, since wee are not [...]bl [...], neith [...]r in whole nor in part to satisfie for our owne sinnes.

It is so indeed, and that you may bee the more confir­med, will you looke how the Iesuites who [...] the light, be­cause it conuinceth them of darkenesse, in [...]translating this place, leaue out t [...]is word By him self [...]: they, say he makes purga­tion of sinnes, but passe by this word, by himself, looke you their owne translation.

I se [...] ind [...]ed they haue it not [...]n their tra [...]slation, but is it I pray you in the Greeke text?

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Yea forsooth if you can read it, these are the words, [...].

In truth this one place makes all their doctrine, con­cerning the supplement of Christs merits, iustly to be su­spected: for since he hath made the purgation of our sinnes by himselfe, what should we looke that they are to bee purged by any other?

You reason well.

I speake as I think: it is ei­ther pittiful ignorāce, that they see not the truth, or their wilful malice that they dare mutilate so cleare a place of holy Scrip­ture, leauing it out of their Bi­ble, because it [...]akes against t [...]ē.

But now take in with this [Page 171] the other testimony of holy Scripture, whereof I spake. you haue it Heb. 7. ver. 25. Christ is a­ble to saue perfectly ( [...]) all that come vnto God by him.

I see that is also a com­fortable place.

So it is indeed: for as the first makes you see that Christs meriting power is personall, & in himselfe, not transf [...]rred to any other▪ so this makes you see it is perfect: hee hath done the worke of our saluation in his owne person, and hee hath done it perfectly: What more can you craue?

Truly I craue no more.

Away then with these rotten dregges of Papistrie, that teach vs to depend vpon other merites, & vpon an other bloud [Page 172] (as I shewed you the first day) besides the merits of the bloud of Christ.

For my own part I think neuer to leane to them, but will rest vpon that onely perfect sa­crifice of Christ offered on the Crosse for my sinnes.

If you abide there, you are vpon the sure foundation; and remember you must renounce all other sacrifices, which dero­gate from the perfection & suf­ficiency of that one sacrifice of Christ.

I will indeed▪

Then for your confirma­tion marke these places. Christ in the end of the world hath ap­peared once to put away sinne by the sacrif [...]e of himselfe. Heb. 9.26. Christ was once offered to take [Page 173] away the sins of many, Heb. 9.28. Wee are sanctified by the offering of the body of Iesus Christ once, Heb. 10.10. This man after he had offe­red one sacrifice for sinnes, sits foreuer at the right hand of God. Heb. 10.12. With one offering hath he [...]onsecrated for euer them that are sanctified. Heb. 10.14. where re­mission of sinnes is, there is no more offering for sin, Heb. 10.18. Christ needed not daily (as these high Priests) to offer vp sacrifice, first for his owne sinnes, and then for the peoples: for that did hee once, when he offered vp himselfe, Heb. 7.27. without shedding of blood, is no re­mission. Heb. 9.22. Perceiue you not here that the Apostle repea­ting this so oft, that Christ was once offered, for taking away our sinnes, destroyeth all other pre­tended [Page 174] sacrifices for sinne, and specially that sacrifice of the Masse, which they say is a pro­pitiatorie sacrifice for the sinnes of the quicke and the dead.

Truely the places are so plaine, that very children may vnderstand them, and I would God that these poore people, who of a blind mind dote after Masses, thinking by it to gette the pardon of their sinnes, had this benefite of Gods word, as you haue it, that so by the light of it they might come to the knowledge of the truth.

And I wish the same from my heart, But now to confirm you yet further, I pray you mark how blasphemous and deceit­full a thing their Masse is. First, is not this a mockerie of GOD [Page 175] the Father, To desire him to accept his owne Sonne: Is Christ out of the fauour of his Father? said he not; He is my Son in whom I am well pleased? shall a mortal & miserable sinful Priest be a Mediatour, or Peacemaker betweene the Father and the Sonne, praying the Father that he would accept his Sonne, and send downe an Angell to take vp his bodie into Heauen?

Fie vpon it: It is a vile blasphemie.

Secondly, see you not how it inverts Gods ordinance? for where hee hath ordained a Sacrament, wherein God offers and giues his Sonne to vs; they haue changed it into a sacrifice, wherein they offer vp the Son to the Father.

[Page 176]

I see that also▪

Thirdly, Is it not an iniurious thing to Christ, to say that any can offer him vp to God, but himselfe?

It is inde [...]de: for as no o­ther Sacrifice can satisfie Gods iustice, so no other sacrificer can bee worthie to offer him but himselfe, as is cleare out of your former Testimonies:

Fourthly, Is it not a decei­uing of the people, to say that an vnbloudie Sacrifice (such as they say the Masse is) can bee propitiatorie to obtaine remissi­on of sinnes?

It is indeed, and expresly against the Word of God you haue alledged, Without shedding of bloud there is no remission: they grant themselues that in the [Page 177] Masse there is no shedding of bloud, and how then can it giue pardon or remission of sinnes?

Well then, since by this you see how they derogate frō Christs sacrifice, which is the first part of Christes priestly of­fice, I will now let you see how they also cut away the other, namely, his intercession. Marke that place of the Apostle, There is one God, and one Mediator of God and Man, the Man Christ Iesus.

They haue a distinction for that, and say, there is but one Mediator of redemption, but for Intercession many.

But will you consider the place; and you shall see where the Apostle sayes, there is but one Mediator, he is speaking of [Page 176] [...] [Page 177] [...] [Page 178] Intercession and praying, and so his meaning must be, There is one Mediator of Intercession: read the place and see.

I see it is so indeed.

Now with it wil you but ioyne this place of Augustine, Qui pro omnibus interpellat pro quo autem nullus, Cont. Epist. Parme [...]. l. 2. cap. 8, is verus & vni­cus mediator est: He that inter­ceeds for al, for whom none in­terceedes, is the onely true Me­diator. And there hee sayes it should bee a great absurdity, if Paul were called a Mediator, for so there should be many Medi­ators of Intercession.

But should not Christi­ans interceede one of them for an other, as wee are comman­ded, One of you pray for an o­ther.

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They should indeed: but you must vnderstand, that this and the like precepts are for Christians here militant on earth in one communion, wher­in alike one of them is bound to helpe an other by their praiers.

But do not they who are in heauen pray for the Church militant on earth?

I thinke they doe in gene­ral, but not vpon any particular knowledge of our priuat neces­sities, troubles or tentations.

How can that be?

You may soon vnderstand how, for if they know your griefes, it is either by hearing of your words, or vnderstanding of your thoughts, or by some Reuelation made to them. Thinke yee they know your thoghts.

[Page 180]

No indeed, that is pro­per to God.

Think you they hear your voice, when you expresse in prayer your thoughts by your words.

I cannot thinke that nei­ther, since they want their bo­dies which haue the organs of hearing.

Then they must know it by Reuelation.

It is most likely that when wee pray, God tels them our necessities.

What neede you then to pray them to interceede for you.

But how shall wee goe to a King but by his Courtiers?

What a silly refuge is that? You haue forgotten what you [Page 181] answered euen now. See you not here how that similitude v­sed by Papists is destroied, to wit, That as wee goe to earthly Kings by Courtiers, so we shold goe to the King of Heauen, by heauenly Courtiers: for here it is not the Courtier that shewes our necessities to the King, but the King you see shewes them to his Courtiers. And would you not think him a foole, who may haue the King himselfe to speake to, and knowes hee will be welcome if he speake as hee should, and yet passeth by the King, and depends vpon Cour­tiers to haue his turne done by them?

I thinke no lesse then you say, but how is it then they pray for vs in generall?

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I will shew you how: there are foure sorts of prayer, one called [...], whereby we craue [...]uill to be diuerted from vs; an other called [...], whereby wee s [...]ke some good wee want to bee giuen vnto vs: the third is [...], whereby one of vs in­terceedes for an other: and the fourth is [...], thanksgiuing for good receiued. Now they who are in heauen are freede from tentation, and so [...] is not ascribed to them: neither yet is euer [...] in holy scrip­ture giuen them: They rest from their labours, they are not busied to be patrones to seueral Countries, Cities and Compa­nies of people, hauing the parti­cular cures of seuerall diseases parted among them, that is but [Page 183] a doting dreame of Papistri [...]: but you will finde [...], thanksgiuing ascribed to them, and [...], too in generall, whereby they pray for some good they yet want, but look to enioy: as is euident out of their owne words, How long Lord: for this is the voice of these who want some thing they would faine haue.

Tell me I pray you what want they who are in heauen?

First, these glorified spi­rits want their bodies, without the which they can neuer haue full contentment: for the soule and body were created compa­nions, the perfection of both stands in the promised vnion of both.

I vnderstand that very [Page 184] well: but want they no other thing, for which they cry, How long?

Yea, they want their breth­ren, all them that belong to the communion of Saints; their de­sire shall not be satisfied till all their brethren bee where they are: for God hath so prouided that th [...]y without vs should not bee per­fected.

In truth that is exceeding comfortable, that Adam, A­braham, & the rest of that con­gregation of the first borne shal not be perfected till we come to them, yea, til the full number of Gods Saints bee accomplished. But is there no other thing they long for?

Yea, they long and pray for the comming of Christ, Euen [Page 185] so come Lord Iesus: at which time they know verie well, that all the promises of God shall bee performed to all and euerie one of the Saints of God. Thus farre you see how they in Heauen do pray in generall.

But you thinke not that we should praie to them in our particular necessities.

No indeed▪ for beside the former reason, we haue no war­rant to praie vnto them, and so cannot doe it in faith. Will you consider can there bee any bet­ter Schoolemasters to teach vs how to pray then the persons of the blessed Trinitie? and thinke you not we are surest when wee prai [...] in such a manner as they haue taught?

That cannot bee denied.

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Then I pray you marke it, there is the voice of God the Father, Psal. 50.15. Call vpon me; there is the precept of God the Son, When you pray you shall say in this man­ner, Our Father which art in Hea­uen &c. there is againe the voice of God the Holy Ghost, who when hee teacheth vs to pray, teacheth vs, Rom. 8. Crie abba, Father. What say you to these, is there any word here of praier to Che­rubin, or Seraphin? is there any warrant for turning ouer of all the prayers in the Psalme booke to the Virgin Marie? O Ladie that art my righteousnesse. Psal. 4. O Ladie reprooue mee not in thy wrath. Psal. 6.

Truly I can say no [...]hing a­gainst them, for I see according to Gods Word it is the surest [Page 587] and safest way to pray to God by the mediation of Christ.

But now I will bring you one cleare instance, to let you see how Papistrie takes away Christs intercession, and sets him idle in the Heauens.

What is that?

They say there is in Hea­uen, a King, God the Father; & a Queene the Virgin Marie; and that the King hath giuen to the Queen dimidium regni, Gab. Biel. in Cau. Miss. [...]ect. 56. the halfe of his Kingdome; the Ministra­tion of Iustice hee hath kept to himselfe; the Ministration of Mercie hee hath giuen ouer to the Virgin Marie: such as seeke Iustice goe to the King of Hea­uen, such as seeke Mercie goe to the Queene, who also by her authoritie hath power to com­mand [Page 188] her Sonne Christ Iesus.

Good sooth these are too grosse speeches, for as you haue said, they make Christ idle in Heauen, or like a childe vnder Tuition: for my owne part I will keepe that reuerent estima­tion of the blessed Virgin, that is due to her: but will euer reserue to Christ the glorie of a Sauiour and Mediatour.

Let it bee so, only now I will let you see that as Papistrie destroies many Articles of our Christian faith, concerning the person, and Offices of Christ: So it is a P [...]st of Common­wealths, loosing al the bands of human fellowshippe and socie­tie.

That is strange: for there are many flourishing King­domes [Page 189] with vnitie and peace that professe Papistrie.

Remember you what our Sauiour sayes in the Para­ble. So long as the strong man keepes his house all is in quiet, but when a stronger then hee comes in to bind him, there be­gins the battell: So long as Sa­than possessed the World by the darknesse of Papistrie, there was a miserable felicitie in it, and a cursed vnitie, such as was in Sodom, where young and old from the foure corners of the Citie conspired and agreed to one impietie: But now since Christ comes in by his glorious Gospell to illuminate his owne with the light thereof, that which before seemed peace in Papistrie, now appeares to bee [Page 190] a fir [...] come from Hel seeking to deuoure all such as forsake h [...]r errours, and embrace the truth of God.

I, but that is a thing wher­with they charge the Gospel, that since it was preached, ma­ny Sects and Heresies are risen vp in the world, which were not in it before.

I pray you consider what a Polici [...] of Sathan that is to disgrace the Gospell: how ma­nie Heresies arose in the Apo­stles dayes or soone after, that was not in the World before. Then came vp Simon Magus, Cerinthus, Ebion, Marcion, Basili­des, Menander, Valentinus, Cer­don, Marcion, and many more. Shall the Gospell be blamed for this? or rather may you not see [Page 191] it is the craft of the Deuill to dis­grace the Gospell?

Indeede I thinke it no good reason that the Gospell should be the lesse esteemed of. There is but one truth, but ma­nifold errours; and I remember our Sauiour warning vs of thi [...] in that Parable of the Gospell; That where the good Husban­man sowes good wheat in the day, incontinent comes the E­nemie that euill one, and sowes his popple in the night.

Now if you apply that to our present question, the doubt is easily solued: So long as the World was blinded with idola­trie and the Masse (which in ef­fect is but a Masse of Heresies) Sathan laie quiet, hee was not troubled in his Kingdome, and [Page 192] hee raised no trouble in the World: but since the light of the Gospell discouered his darke­nesse, and that hee findes his Kingdome decaying, and him­selfe falling by the preaching of the Gospell, now he bestirres himselfe more busily, and doth what he can to disgrace this glo­rious Evāgell by vile heresies of some that impugne it, and pro­fane liues of others who pro­fesse it. But as you see, it is no reason why the Gospell should be blamed for any of these.

It is not indeed. But now you remember you beganne to discourse how Papistrie is a Pest of Common-wealthes, King­doms, dissoluing all the bands of humane fellowshippe, and societie among men.

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Now I will let you see it There is own of their Positions; It is llawfull to spoile an Heretique of his goods, Grat. Caus. 1 [...].4. glossa. meliùs tamen est quod auihoritate indicis fiat: though it were better to do it by authori­tie of the Iudge. In their iudge­ment all Protestants are Here­tiques, and so they make it law­ful for Papists both to steale and reaue from them.

That is strange indeede; and yet I haue many times mar­ [...]a [...]led what should haue mo­ued the M [...]c gregors; and o­ther Licentious Men of our Island▪ who knew no Religion, to professe Papistrie, but now I see the reason of it; for it made their robberie good Christiani­tie.

Here are other, Vxor ca­tholica [Page 194] viro haeretico beneuolum reddere non te [...]e [...]ur, Siman [...]h [...] Pacens. E­p̄isc [...]pus In­stitut. Gregor. 13., that is to say in plaine t [...]rmes, a Wife that is a Papist is not bound to render due ben [...]uolence to her Hus­band being a Protestant.

That assertion is more shameles then the other, plaine contrarie (as I remember) to the Apoles doctrine, 1. Cor. 7.13. Let not a Woman forsake her husband who beleeues not, if hee bee content to dwell with her.

You take it vp very well, and you may see how Papistrie breakes the band of fellowship betweene Husband and Wife.

I see it indeed, and this re­solues me of an other doubt, for I haue maruailed often what should mooue so many Ladies to become Catholique Roman, [Page 195] but now I see it is a plausible Religion for such Wiues as are male-content with their Hus­bands, for it loos [...]th them from that subiection where vnto God hath bound them.

Take the third: It dis­slolues the bands betweene the Father and the Sonne Pater qui filium habet haereticum, C [...]rd. Alan. exhaeredi­tare ten [...]tur [...] talem filium ▪ A Fa­ther that is a Papist and hath [...] Sonne that is a Protestant, he is bound to disinherit him. Again Pr [...]pter haere sin patris s [...]lij sunt sui iuris, Siman [...]ha Ep [...]s. Pa­cens. Instit. Cathol. lib. 46. [...]er. 74. by the Heresie of the Fa­ther the Child [...] is fre [...]d [...]rom o­bedience.

Fie vpon them that main­tain [...] such grosse positions.

Y [...]t there is worse fol­lowing. Caus. [...]3 Quaesi. 8. Haeretici f [...]i [...] vel consan­guineinon [Page 196] dicantur, sed [...]x [...]ale­gem sit m [...]nus tua super eos, vt [...]undas sanguinem ipsorum. He­retiques may not bee termed Children, nor Kinsmen, but ac­cording to the olde Law thy hand must bee vpon them to spill their bloud. There are all the bands of Nature, Affinitie, Consanguinitie, destroyed by Papistrie, and they thinke it law­ful for Papists to slaie their own Children or their Kinsmen, if they bee Protestants: What thinke you, is it good dwelling with such Vipers? and are our Protestants wise to make al­liance by marriages with them?

In good faith I am asha­med in their behalfe, and I think it no maruell you call Papistrie a Pest of Common-wealthes.

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You shall heare but one and I will trouble you with no more. It dissolueth the band of subjection wherin people stand bound to their Princes: Subditi licitè possunt haeretico domino nega­re obs [...]quium. Popish Subjects may lawfully denie obedience to a Protestant King. Againe, Non licet Christianis tolerare re­gem Haereticum: Bellar. lib. 5. de [...]om. Po [...]ti [...]. cap. 6.7. & 4. It is not lawfull for Christians to tollerate an Hereticall King, they may ex­pell him, depose him, yea mur­ther him: And this they say is agreeable to the Apostolique Doctrine.

Away with it, for it may rather bee called a Doctrine of Deuils, who is the Father of lies, Seditions, Diuisions, and Murthers.

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And yet these are the common lessons, which are taught and practised by the Do­ctors, and Disciples of that whorish Church of Rome. But how fals [...]ly they call this Do­ctrine Apostolique. Consider what was the Apostles Doctrin concerning the obedience of people vnto their Kings. Read there what Saint Peter saith.

I perceiue he bids honour the King, and commaunds the people to submit them selues vnto the King as Superiour, or vnto Gouernours (vnder him.)

Very well: Tell me now who was King, and Supre [...]me Gouernour when Peter wrote this, was it not Nero? a vile Mon­ster, a bloudie Persecutor, yet you see Peter bids not depose [Page 199] him, farre lesse bids he kill him. Looke againe to the Fathers of the Primitiue Church: see Iustine Martyr, Apol. ad Anton. Deum solum adoramus, in alijs vobis inseruimus laeti, Imperatores & Principes ho­num esse prof [...]tentes, & simul pre­cantes, vt cum imperiali potestatem sanam quoque men [...]em obtinere comperiamini. We worship God only, in all other things we serue you with gladnesse, acknowled­ging you to be the Emperours, and Princes of men, praying al­so that with your Imperiall power yee may haue a sound mind. Here you see in all thing [...], except in matter of Gods Wor­ship, Seruice professed to the Emperour, and Prayer made for such Princes as are contrarie minded to Christianitie, but no [Page 200] treason nei [...]her taught nor pra­ctised. The like hath Ignatius; Ad Antioch Caesari sub [...]iti estote in ijs, quibus sine periculo est ipsa subiectio: Bee subiect to Caesar in all thinges, wh [...]rein you may without peril of conscience: Lib. ad Sca [...]ul. And Tertullian al­so, Co [...]imus Imperatorem vt ho­ [...]inem a Deo secundum, solo Deo minorem: VVee reu [...]rence the Emperour as next and imme­diate vnder God, hauing none but God aboue him. Againe, Christianis nullius est host is, Tertul. A­polog. c [...]p. [...]8 29. & 30. nediùm Imperatoris, quem sciens a Deo suo constitui, necesse est, vt & ipsum di­ [...]igat, & reuereatur, & honoret, & salvum velit cum toto Romano Imperio. A Christian is no mans Enemi [...], farre lesse the Empe­rours Enemie, hee knowes that hee is placed by the Lord his [Page 201] God and therefore it cannot be but he must loue him, reuerence him, honour him, and wish his safetie, and the welfare of the Empire. Let Papists now bee a­shamed to pretend either Apo­stles, or Apostolique men, as if they were Patrons of that per­nicious Doctrine, whereby they teach their people to murther Princes, if they be contrarie minded to them in Religion.

Doe it if they will they haue good cause.

Now (Sir) because to morrow is the Sabbath, if you please to goe to the Church I will come and goe with you.

I am v [...]rie well content, and I thanke you for it.

THE SEVENTH, OR SABBOTH DAYES CONFERENCE. Wherein the order obserued in the Church of SCOTLAND, is de­clared to be conforme to the anci­ent order prescribed by the Apo­stles, and practised in the Primi­tiue Church.

GOod morrow (Sir) are you ready to goe?

When you please.

What Church wil yee goe [Page 204] to or whom of the Preachers desire you to heare?

Make you the choice, I will accompany you.

Let vs goe then, because you are a ftranger: here you will pardon me to goe before, and shew you the way into the Church, and shew you where you should sit.

I thank you for it. What is this the people are going to doe?

They bow themselues before the Lord, to make an humble confession of their sins and supplications for mercy; which you will heare openlie read out by the publik [...] reader. Now when it is done what thinke you of the prayer?

Truly I thinke there is [Page 208] no thing in it, but that wherun­to eueri [...] good Christian should say Amen: and it hath done me much good to see the people with humble reuerence, sighing and groning, accompanie the praier vp to God. But what goe they now to doe?

Euerie one is preparing (as you see) their Psalme-book, that all of them with one heart and mouth, may sing vnto the Lord. There is the Psalme which the Reader hath pro­claimed, if you please you may sing with them, or if you cānot follow them in your heart.

So I will. What doth the Reader now, is he making an o­ther praier?

No, yonder booke which now hee open is the Bible: you [Page 206] will heare him read some por­tion of holy Scripture. Vnd [...]r­stand you what he saies?

Yea for sooth, wel enough for hee reades very distinctly.

These are the three exer­cises which are vsed in all our congregations, euerie Saboth one houre before the preacher come in, first prayer, then psalms then reading of holi [...] scripture [...] and by these the hearts of [...]he people are prepared the more reuerently to heare the word, & you see all is done with great quietn [...]sse, deuotion, and reue­rence.

I see that ind [...]ed.

We haue no ser [...]ice h [...]re you see in a strange langu [...]ge the Preacher speakes, and the people prayes in their mother [Page 207] tongue: but the new forme of the Romish Church is to haue all their diuine seruice in the la­tine tongue.

Truly, I haue ofttimes maruelled at it▪ what should moue them to make their prai­ [...] in a language the people vn­derstands not.

Vitalianus Bishop of Rome, was the first father of this no­uelty.

Put what are they doing now?

You heare the third Bell ringing, and in this space the reading ceaseth, and at the [...]nd of the Bel ringing, the Preacher will come: But till the Preach [...]r come in, reade this place of the Apostle Saint Paul, and you shall see what was the old form [Page 205] vsed in the Primitiue Church, and that ours is very agreeabie vnto it, Read the 1 Corinth. 14. ver. 6.

And now (Brethren) if I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues, what shall I profite you? except I speake to you either by Reuelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7 Moreouer things without life which giue a sound, whether it be a pipe or a harpe, except they make a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be knowne what is piped or har­ped?

8 And also if the Trumpet giue an vncertaine sound, who shall pre­pare himselfe to battell?

9 So likewise yee by the tongue, except you vtter wordes that haue signification, how shall it be knowne [Page 209] what is spoken? for you shall speake in the aire.

10 There are so many kindes of voices (as it commeth to passe) in the world, and none of them is dumbe.

11 Except I know then the pow­er of the voice, I shall bee vnto him that speaketh a B [...]rbarian, and hee that speaketh shall bee a Barbarian vnto me.

12 Euen so, forasmuch as yee couet spirituall gifts, seeke that yee may excell vnto the edifying of th [...] Church.

13 Wherefore let him that spea­keth a strange tongue, pray that hee may interpret.

14 For, if I pray in a strange tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my vnderstanding is without fruit.

15 What is it then? I will pr [...]y [Page 205] [...] [Page 209] [...] [Page 210] with the spirit, but I will pray with the vnderstanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the vnderstanding also.

16 Else when thou blessest with the spirit, how shall hee who occupi­eth the roome of the vnlearned, say, Amen: at the giuing of thankes, seeing hee knoweth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily giuest thāks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God I speak lan­guages more then yee all.

19 Yet had I rather in the Church to speake fiue words with mine vnderstanding, that I might also instruct others, then ten thou­sand wor [...]es in a straenge tongue. You see here that by the Apo­stles precept, the seruice of God in the publike assemblies of th [...] [Page 211] Church, should be done in such a language as the people may vnderstand.

I see it indeed.

Now if it like you for your further confirmatiō, I wil shew you how the same order, which this day is obserued in our Church concerning the exerci­ses of Gods worship, was also obserued in the Primitiue Church neerest the Apostles dayes.

It likes me very well to heare it.

Then will I tell you it out of Iustin Maertyr.

What a Father was he? Apol. 2. ad Anton. Pi­ [...]m imperat

A very ancient and lear­ned man, hee liued in the yeare one hundred and fiftie, and of a Philosopher was conuerted to [Page 212] be a Christian: he wrote to the Emp [...]rour and Senate of Rome, two Apologies in defence of Christian Religion: in the secōd of them so he writes, Die qui so­lis dicitur omnes qui in oppidis; vel agris morantur, vnum in locum conueniunt, commentari [...]que Apo­stolorum, vel Prophetarum scripta leguntur, quandiu hora patitur, de­inde vbi is qui legit destitit, is qui prae est admonet, & hortatur vt e [...] quae lecta sunt bona imitemur, tum surgimus omnes ac compre [...]mur, conclusisqu [...] nostris precibus panis, vinum, & aquae offeruntur, tum is qui primum locum tenet [...]odem mo­do preces, gratiarumque actionem pro virili mittit, populusque bene dicit, dicens, Amen, & ijs quae cum gr [...]tiarum actione consecrata sunt vnusquisque participat, eadem ad [Page 213] eos quiabsunt diaconis dantur per­ferenda, Quibus copiae suppetunt, ij si volunt, quis (que) si [...]o arbitratu quod vult largitur, quod (que) colligitur apud eum qui praest reponitur, is (que) pupil­lis, & viduis, & ijs quos morbus, aliaue caeusa inopes fecit, & ijs qui in vinculis sunt, & hospitib [...]s [...]ub­uenit. Vpon that day which is called Sunday, all Christians resident in townes and villages assemble in one place, where the written Comment [...]ries of the Prophets and Apostles are read for the space of an howre, the which being done, the Preacher or President ouer the flocke, ad­monisheth & exhorts vs to fol­low the wholesome word read: then get wee all vp and pray to­gether: our prayers being fini­shed, bread, wine, and water are [Page 214] presented, and then the Preach­er conceiues feruent praier and thanksgiuing, and the people blesse God, saying, Amen: then euery one taketh a part of these things which were consecrate by thāksgiuing, the same things also are giuen to the Deacons to be [...] conuaied to these who are absent: And such as haue the things of this world contributes to the poor [...] as they please, and that which is collected, is giuen him in trust who is President, & hee therwith supports the wid­dow, fatherlesse, & these whom sicknes or any other cause hath made indigent, as also strangers, and these who are imprisoned. I might shew you the like out of of Tertullian, in his Apologie, ad­uersus Gentes, Cap. 39. But [Page 215] now the time serues not.

It needes not for that place, you haue brought from the Apostle, and this other from Iustin Mart [...]r, may let any man see the order & exercise, which Christians of the church Primi­tiue obs [...]rued in their holy as­semblies for I see no other thing among them (as you said) but publik [...] reading of the word in a plaine language done by the Reader till the Preacher come in, thē publike singing of Psalms by all the people, th [...]n preach­ing, prayer, and collection for the poore.

You take it vp very well, and God be praised you see that same order among vs: And you who haue seene their seruice, & dumb guise of their Masse, their [Page 216] mumbling of prayers in the La­tine tongue, and the vnreuerent prophaning of the sabbath, that is among their people for la [...]ke of discipline, may soone discerne that how soeuer they brag of an Apostolike Church, yet they haue not kept the ancient Apo­stolike order.

It is true indeed, for if a man wil goe to a Papists church to heare Masse, he shall not dis­cerne what the Priest sayes, vn­lesse he vuderstand Latine, and I haue many times thought strange of it.

But it falles out very well that so it should bee: The first Babel for her proud vsurpation, was punished with confusion of Languages, that when the buil­der spake the people knew not [Page 217] what he craued; and iustly is the like, Yea a worse plague, in so much as it is Spirituall powred out vpon new Babel, for her in­tollerable presumption, that when their Priest speakes the people wots not what he sayes.

In truth it is a great blind­nesse.

And so yee may say: for albeit they had no cleare Di­uine warrant in the Word, yet considering that God by an ex­traordinary decree declared his will to themselues, it is strange they should not giue place vnto it.

Where haue you that? Hist. Bohem. Cap. 13.

I find it in Aen [...]as Siluius their owne man, that when the Slauonians sought licence from Pope Formosus that they might [Page 218] celebr [...]te Diuine Seruice in their owne mother tongue, the matter being disputed in the Popes Counsell, a voice was heard from Heauen saying, Om­nis spiritus laudet Deum, & omnis lingua confiteatur illi: Let euerie Spirit praise the Lord, and all tongues confesse him: Where­vpon at that time that benefit was granted to the Slauonians: but thinke yee it not strange that it should bee denied to o­ther people?

I thinke so indeed, special­ly since the Lord hath declared his will so plainely both in his word, and in that extraordina­ri [...] reuelation. But wee must let this alone, for there comes the Preacher. And now (I pray you) tell mee how I should behaue my selfe.

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Trouble you not, doe a [...] you see others beside you: for first he will conceiu [...] a Pray [...]r, at the which the people humbles themselues; thereafter he reads his Text of Holy Scripture, this the people heare with reuerēce, then hee falles to the preaching which some heare with their heads couered, some otherwise, (in that you may doe as your health requires▪) the preaching being ended hee concludes all with a thanksgiuing, after which there is a Psalme sung by the whole Congregation, and then the Minister blesseth the people in the name of the Lord, and so dimits them: you will see no o­ther thing here.

Well, I shal obserue it the best I can.

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Now what thinke of it?

In truth I think it a most comely and comfortable order, and I thanke God, it is the best Sabbath day that euer I saw.

Considered you his Text, and how he opened it vp?

Yea I haue: Saint Paul in it makes m [...]ntion of his owne conuersion, and how he was re­ceiu [...]d to mercy by Christ Iesus, of whom he witnesseth h [...] came into the World to saue sinners.

You heard him there de­clare, how the elect Children of God before their calling differ not in maners from reprobates, but when grac [...] comes it makes the difference, and causeth them to say with the Apostle, I was a blasphemer, a persecutor, an Idola­ter, &c. but now (thankes to God) I am not so.

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I heard it verie well, and from my heart I also giue thankes to God, who hath re­ceiued mee to his mercie: for I was plunged in the darkenesse of Idolatrie, beside many other filthie sinnes which oppressed mee: but the Lord hath deliue­red mee from them all, blessed be God for it. And I thanke you (my deare Brother) who hath been an instrument of his grace toward me.

Nay (Sir) all thankes and praise bee vnto the Lord: hee seekes and saues that which was lost, he reduceth his own from their wandrings, and giues life to them who were dead.