OH well met once againe! where haue you bin that I neuer saw you since wee talked about Pope Ioane? Are you the same man for Religion, that you was then?

Yea truely, or rather more resolute, and confident.

What new arguments haue you lighted on to increase your resolution and confidence? for my part, I am euery day further out of loue with your Religion, then other.

The Arguments which haue doubled my re­solution [Page 2] and confidence are diuers, wherof the first is this: Allen Apolo­gy of the Semi­naries, c. 5. f. 58That I find sentence giuen for vs Catho­likes against you Protestants in all the Tribunals of Gods Church, I finde that all the Writings of the Saints in Heauen professe for vs.

What? the Writings of the Prophets and of the Apostles? and of the Fathers in the Primi­tiue Church? and of the Councels? Doe you finde that all professe for you?

Yea, all of them: Campian, rat, 10. Quaecunque vel opera, vel fragmenta supersunt eorum qui disiunctissimis terris Euangelium seuerunt, omnes nobis vnam fidem exhi­bent quam hodie Catholici profitemur. There is not a booke, nor a piece of a booke extant, written by the first Preachers of the Gospel, whensoeuer, or how far so euer they liued one from another, but it giues witnesse to the Catholike Faith which wee professe at this day.

Can you make proofe thereof vnto mee, and I will bee of your Religion?

That I can; and I will first begin with Scrip­tures: for I am of Rock of the Church, Ch. 8. p. 193. Doctor Saunders opinion, That there are most plaine Scriptures in all points for the Ca­tholike Faith, and none at all against the same. And of Motiue 48. Doctor Bristoes mind, whose words these are; Most certaine it is, that from the beginning of Genesis to the end of the Apocalips there is no Text that makes for you, nor against vs but all for vs.

Say you so? Verily, and if the Scriptures be for you, I will be with you: for I like well of Epist. 80.Saint Basils motion to one with whom hee had a contro­uersie; Stemus arbitratu inspiratae à Deo Scriptura, & [Page 3] apud quos inueniuntur dogmata diuinis oraculis conso­na, illis omnino veritas adiudicetur sententiae. Let vs stand to the arbiterment of holy Scripture, and let them be thought to haue the truth on their side whose opinions are found to be agreeable to Scrip­tures. But let mee tell you a word or two by the way, and they are these▪ viz. That you are not more thorowly perswaded of the truth of your two Doctors speeches, then I am of a Gentlemuns speech of our Religion, who being importuned by an idle Questionist of your side, to tell where our Religion was before Luthers time, returned him this answere▪ That our Religion was alwaies in the Bible, where your Religion neuer was. In which per­swasion I am the more confirmed by this, That there Teste Espentao Comment. in Tit. c. 1. p. 104. 105.are of your selues (no fooles I wisse) who write, that some among you, Poene peceatum putant Scripturas legere, ne sic siant haeretici: Doe thinke it almost a sinne to read the Scriptures, least by rea­ding of them they should proue hereticks. For if your Religion were in the Bible, and that in so plaine manner as you brag, why should any of you bee so afraid of opening a Bible▪ why did one of your Apud Hassen­mullerum. Hist. Iesuit. ord. cap. [...] p. 428.Iesuits confesse, that Lectis Bebliotu [...]t cicius haereticum Lutheranum, quam Catholicum Romanum facit: The reading of the Bible makes rather Hereti­call Lutherans, then Romau Catholikes? Why suf­fer you this marginal Note, Conc. 3. de La­zaro; printed at Basil 1530. Nunc ex [...]udit haresies, to be set ouer these words of Chrysosta [...], [...]g [...]oratio scripturarum peperit haereses.

I meane not to take vpon mee the iustifying of euery mans priuate conceits or speeches; but [Page 4] what I my selfe haue said, all that shall bee made good. I will proue vnto you the troth of our Reli­gion by the Bible.

Now (indeede) I am afraid you are be­witched with that damnable opinion, which of la­ter yeeres hath runne currantly among you, viz. Sunt Pighius Hie­rarch. Eccles. l. 3. [...]. 3. & 5. c. 3. Simanea Instit. Cathol. c. 57. nu. 12. scriptura V [...]lut nasus cereus, qui se her sum, illor­sum, & in quam volueris partem trahi, retrahi, fingi (que) facile permittit, & tanquam plumbea quadam Lesbi [...] [...]disicationis regula, quam no [...] [...] difficile accommodare ad quiduis volueris. The Scriptures are like a nose of waxe, which may bee writhen this way, or that way, backward, or forward as a manwould would haue it. And with that of Quintinus the Parisian In Arg. lib. de pr [...]scip [...]. adu. here. per Tertul.Doctor, commended by Pamelius, who writes thus. Not▪ in Tertul▪ de pr [...]scrip. adu▪ har [...]t. c. 39. nu. 237. iuxta edit. Pamel. Tam facile est, im [...] facilius est adres profanas & impias pr [...] ­bandas detorquere sanctam scripturam, quam facile est & pedibus, ac semi-pedibus aut penthememeribus Vir­gilianis Epithalmia, sen quiduis aliud in vnum conge­rere. It is as casie, yea it is more easie to wrest the Scripture to the prouing of any villany or impiety: then to make a Loue Song, by snatching here a patch and there a patch of a Verse out of Virgil. And that in confidence hereof you hope to make a shew of somewhat out of the Bible for the prouing of your Religion: otherwise I know not what should moue you to beginne with Scripture. You haue forgotten (I beleeue) that Moti [...]s 48.Doctor Bri­stow describing the meanes to make plaine demon­stration, that Heretikes haue no euidence, but you all, aduiseth his Agents to labour still to get the Heretickes out of their weake and false Castle of holy [Page 5] Scripture, into the plaint fields of Councels and Fathers. For all his bragging of the Scriptures, hee put but a little trust in them: hee was loth to haue them in the foreward.

But I am content they match in the fore­ward, if you will beleeue me.

Why, but I pray you then place the best formost. And if we fall into dispute with Saint Pe­ters Supremacie, trouble mee not with such Texts as some of your n Simanea In­stitut. Cathol. c. 44. nu. 2. & 3. impres. Valisso­leti. A. 1552.Rabbies alledge for it. Tell me not that our Sauiour Christ said vnto S. Peter onely, Duc in altum: Launch into the deepe. No [...] potuisti vna hora vigilare mecum? Couldst thou not watch one houre with mee? Sequere me, Follow me. Nei­ther tell mee in way of prouing the same, That S. Pe­ter cut off Malous care. And if from that wee fall to argue about your Popes omnipotency, alledge me not the first verse of the first Chapter of Genesis for it, as your Extro. de Mae­iori. & obed. Cap. vnā sanctamPope Boniface the eight did: neither yet the sixteenth verse of the said Chapter, as ano­ther of your Popes, euen Extra de Mae­iorit. & obed. Cap s [...]lita. Innocentius the third did. Nor that in Ieremy, Chap. 1. v. 10. as the same Innocentius Ibid.did. Let mee notheere out of your mouth, as making to that purpose, That the spirituall man iudgeth all things, and himselfe is iudged of no man. Loe: Two swords here. Returne thy sowrd into his place. Know you not that we shall iudge the Angels? which are the special Texts wheron your Loca supra Citato. Boniface rested. Neither would I willingly heare of Sent­ron Baro­nius Text, Act. 10. Kill and eate. For that which Ibid. Polidore Virgil obserued to be the tricke of Popish Canonists is found practised by those whomake▪ [Page 6] these Arguments. viz. Non secus ists aliquoties de [...] ­quent sacr as scriptur as quò volunt, ac sutores for did as solent dentibus extendere pelles. These Canonists do [...] now and then stretch the Scriptures to their pur­pose, as shooemakers doe their greasie ouer-leathers with their teeth.

Some of these Texts afford Arguments good enough for the conclusions for which they are brought. Yet feare not you: for I meane not to trouble you with any of them.

Neither, if wee ahue occasion to talke of Communicating in one kind, will you (I hope) Roffens. adu. Luth. Act. 16. Eckius in Enchi­rid. Tit. de Com­munione sub al­tera specie.al­ledge vnto mee, for proofe of your practise, the words in our Pater Noster, Giue vs this day our daily bread. Nor Bell. 4. de Euch▪ Cap. 24.tell me, That our Sauiour Christ, Ioh. 6. multiplied l [...]aues, but multiplied no drinke. Nor Eckius loco citato.cite 1 Cor. 5. 7, 8. Our Pasch Christ is immolated. Let vs therefore feast in the Azymes of sinceritie and ve­ritie. And if wee fall to argue by case, whether it be meet that boyes and wenches should make Monkish vowes of obedience, poucrtie, and chastitie: you will not presse mee with such Texts as lib. 2. de Monach. Cap. 35. Bellarmine stands vpon, where he disputes the point. You will not tell me, It is written by Ieremy, Lament. 3. 27. It is good for a man to beare the yoke from his youth. And that our Sauiour Christ said, Matth. 19. 14. Suffer little children to come vnto mee. Neither will you in way of prouing, That boyes and wenches may en­ter into Monasteries against their parents mindes: alledge that Text in Gen. 12. Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy fathers [...] Nor that in Deut. 33. 9. Hee that said vnto [Page 7] his father and to his mother, I know you not, &c. Not that in the Psalme 45. 10. Forget thine owne people, and thy fathers house, and the King shall haue pleasure in thy beautie. Nor that in S. Matth. 10. 37. Hee that loueth father or mother more then mee, is not worthy of mee. Nor that in S. Luke 9. 60. &c. Let the dead bury the dead. Which are the onely Scriptures alledged by Lib. 2. de Mi­nach. Cap. 36. Bellarmine in that Controuersie. For these Texts are so far from prouing any such couclusions, that a man may truly sweare, Hee and his with had made a fray who alledged them.

I will not trouble you with this neither.

Nor with that, Matth. 7. 6. Giue yee not that which is holy to dogs, in way of prouing: Staphylus in Apolog.That ig­norant persons may not reade the Scriptures. Nor with that in Genesis. God for Adams sinne cursed the earth, but not the water, in way of prouing. English Festi­ual feria 4. post fostum palmarū.That it is lawfull for a man to eate Fish in Lent, but not Flesh. You will make mee no such Conclusions as these. Ledesma de diuin script▪ quauis lingua non legend. C. 22.Our Sauiour Luke 4. opened the booke and read a few verses in it, and afterwards closed it. Ergo, Diuine Seruice is not to bee said in a knowne language. Innocent. 1. [...] ­pist. ad E [...]uperi [...] vide Gratian d. 82. proposui [...]l [...]. Be yee holy, for I am holy. Ergo, Mini­sters of the Gospel may not lie with their wiues. God Bell. l. 1. de sanct, beatit. Cap. 20.said vnto Iobs friends, Goe vnto my seruant Iob. Ergo, Scripture affordeth a particular precept, binding men to Inuocation of Saints. Ibid.God told Iobs friends, That Iob should pray for them. Ergo, the Scripture affordeth a particular example of praying to Saints. Ibid.God promised Iobs friendes, That hee would accept of Iobs prayer, &c. Ergo, The Scripture affordeth a particular example of blessing to such [Page 8] as pray to Saints. Greg. de va­leu [...]ia de Idol [...] ­lat. Chap. 7.S. Peter condemneth the vn­lawfull seruice of Idols, 1 Pet. 4. 3. Ergo, some Ido­latry is lawfull. 1. Cor. 6. 4S. Paul commaunds to set the contemptible in the Church to iudge. Bell. l. 5. Rom. Pont. Cap. 7. Ergo, The ancient Christians might, if their abilities had ser­ued, haue deposed from the Empire both the Hea­then and Hereticall Emperours.

The Conclusions which I will make shall arise naturally from the Text: for they shall bee drawne from the expresse wordes, which are one thousand times more cleere for vs, then they are for you, as Apol. of the English Sem. fol. 57.Cardinall Allen affirmes. Yea, very many of the Texts which I will cite, shall bee so open and euident, that vnlesse you deny them to be text of Scripture, you shall not bee able to auoide them, and the rest shall be Answer to M. Charkspref. p. 57such as you cannot shift without glozes and fond interpretations of your owne.

Perhaps you will take them to be open and euident for your purpose, which neither seeme to mee: nor are indeed such in themselues. You know the Prouerbe; As the foole thinketh, so the bell ringeth. I doubt not but those Districtis [...]imi Monachi.Puritan Monkes, Ioh. de Pole­mar. Orat. in Cone Basil apud Binnium [...] 4. Conc. p. 385.who made themselues woodden Crosses, and carried them on their backes continually, making all the world laugh at them, thought the Text, Matth. 10. Hee that taketh not a Crosse, and followeth mee, is not worthy of mee: a plaine and worthy Text for the approuing of their practise. And it may be that the French-men, Teste Azono To. 2. Instit. Mo­ral. lib. 11. Cap. 2. 14. quaritur.who for the proofe of their Salike-Law, alledged the words of our Sauiour, Luk. 12. 27. Considerate Lilia quomodo crescunt: non laborant, ne que [Page 9] nent. Consider the Lillies of the field how they grow, they labour not, neither doe they spin: con­cluding thereon, Lilia Francorum non deberi nisi ne­bilibus qui non laborant: nec deberi nisi masculis qui non nent. That the Flower-de-luces of France (mea­ning the Crowne of France) belongs to none but Nobles, who worke not for their liuing; and those men, not women (who are Spinsters) thought they had a good text in hand for their purpose. Cer­tainly your lousie S. Francit, was not ashamed to say, that the words of our Sauiour, Matth. 25. 40. Quod vni ex minoribus meis fecistis, mihi fecistis. Whatso­euer you haue done to one of these little ones, you haue done it vnto mee: were spoken by him Lib. Conformi­tat. B. Francise [...] per Pi saum [...]di. Bonon. 1590. l. [...]. Fructus. 1. fol. 13. Col. 3. spe­cialiter, yea Lib. 1. Fructius fol. 113. Col. 3 ad literam, of his Frier-Minorits. And your Lib. 1. Fructus 9. fol. 127. Col. 3. Pisanus Writer of that lousie Friers Alcaron will needs threaten vs downe, That the words of S. Paul, Galat. 6. 16. As many as walke according to this Rule, peace shall bee vpon them and mercy: were meant of Francis his rule. Haue you not read that a Sorbo­nist finding it written at the end of S. Pauls Epistles, Missa est, &c. Bee Hyue cap. 3. fol. 93. 94.bragd hee had found the Masse in his Bible? And that another reading in S. Iohn 1. 42. inuenimus Messiam, x drew thence the same conclu­sion. In Teste Stella de modo Concio­nandi cap. 6. Salaminca a Frier tooke vpon him to proue, That the name of the Virgin Mary was spo­ken of Gen. 1. where wee read, that God called the ga­therings together of the waters Maria. I doubt not but he thought it an open and euident text for his turne. Teste Malan­thont. Oral. de [...] Ele­quentia.In another place, another Frier speaking of the words, Ge. 14. 18. Rex Salem panem ac vinū per­tulit: fell into a long discourse of the nature of Salt.▪ the nature of Salt. [...] [Page 10] beleeue he could hardly haue been perswaded that Salem there, had not signified Salt. Your D. Poynes who writes, Preface to his booke of the Sacram.That it was foretold in the Old Te­stament, That the Protestants were a malignant Church, alledging for proofe thereof, 2. Chr. 24. 19. where, according to our vulgar Translation we read thus, Mittebatque prophet as vt reuerterentur ad Domi­num, quos protestantes illi audire nolebant, thought an hundred for one, that the text was plaine. And it may bee that Parish Priest of yeeres, who being at controuersie with his Parishioners about pauing some plot of ground, and alledging the wordes in Ier. 17. 18. to proue that he was not bound to paue any place, saying: Paueant illi, ego non paueant: was not in iest, but in good earnest, thinking the letter of the text made euidently for him. Verily I am perswaded, that that See Sixt. Se­nens. Bibl. Sanctae l. 5. Annot. 116.Painter, whosoeuer he was, who first painted Moses with a paire of hornes: ma­king him, as the Iewes say, like a deuil: thought the text in Exod. 34. 30. where you read, Faciem Moses esse cornutam, Moses face was horned; a plaine war­rant for his picturing him so. And I make no que­stion, d Theodorus Stadytus Epi. 4. ad Naucratium qua extat. To. 3. Bibl. vel pal. E­dit. 3. Col. 216.but d they who make the world beleeue they haue the two keyes of S. Peter at Rome, shewing them sometimes that they may bee adored: if they were vrged to make proofe how S. Peter came by those keyes, would alledge the words of the Euan­gelist, To thee will I giue the keyes of the Kingdome of heauen, as an open and euident text for that matter.

What adoe make you about had I wists? I tell you once againe, Grounds of the New Reli­gion, part. 2. cap. 18. p. 197.The Scriptures which I will alledge shall be plaine, and the expositions such, as [Page 11] you shall take no acceptions against. For, for the the truth of our expositions of holy Scripture, wee haue the continuall tradition of the Church: and the testimony and suffrage of all the holy Fathers, and of thousands of Saints and learned men, who euer expounded it as we doe, and out of it gathered the selfe same doctrine and beliefe.

No meruaile if this be so, that you Bulla P [...] 4 su­per forma pro­fess. [...]id. Constitut. 30. in Sum. Constitut. Sum. Pontif. a Greg. 9. vs (que) ad Sixt. 5sweare thē whole Colledge of your Cardinalls: all your Arch­bishops, Bishops, Priests, Abbats, Priors, Friers, Graduats, that they shall neuer take the Scriptures in other sense, or interpret it to others in other sense, then that which the Fathers gaue thereof with ioynt consent. But I meruell as much that you blush not in saying as you doe: as that they tremble not who administer and take such an oath: for as they wittingly giue occasion of periury, who administer such an oath, and they per­iure themselues who take such an oath: so you ap­parently speake ouer. Yet seeing you are so confi­dent, let vs fall to our worke roundly: And first let mee heare by you, what the Scriptures are which are so plaine for the proofe of your opini­ons: and when you haue done, you shall heare by me what plaine texts may be alledged for proofe of our opinions.

Erislow Mo­tiue 48. Take then that for the first; Matt. 26. Host est cor­pus meum, Hic est sanguis meus: This is my body; This is my bloud.

For what opinion of yours is this Scrip­ture so plaine?

For the Reall presence in the Sacrament, which you deny.

Wee beleeue as well as you, That Christs flesh and bloud are truely present, and truely recei­ued of the faithfull at the Lords Table. We Artie. relig. nn. 28, eait. 1562.teach the people, that Christieorpus datur, accipitur, mandu­catur in Caena. The body of Christ is giuen (indeed and verily) and taken and eaten in the Lords Sup­per. L, Eltensis E­piseopus. Res [...]os. ad Cardinalia Bell. Apologiam. c. 1. pag. 11.The question betweene vs and you is de modo: about the manner of Christs presence: and not de obiecto, whether hee bee present or no. You Harding in his g. Article to M. Iewels Chal­lenge fol. 99.say, Christ is in the Sacrament really, substantially, corpo­rally, carnally, naturally. Yea, Apud Grati­amd 2. de Con­secrat. cap. 42. Ego Berengariusyou say, He is there sensualiter, sensibly: vt manibus sacerdotum tractari, velfrangi, aut fidelium dentibus atteri possit: so that the Priests may handle him and breake him with their hands, and the faithfull may teare him with their teeth. Now this manner of presence we deny: and the letter of the wordes which wee alledge proues not that. For Christ said, This is my body; and not, This is my body in such a manner. In 3. part. Tho. superquaest. 75. Artie. 1. ag­noscente Ioseph Angles Flores Theolog. Quaest. in 4. sent. q. 4. ae effectis Euch. Art. 1. Caietan your Cardinall confesseth, Non apparere ex Èuangelio co­activum aliquid quo possimus conuincere-haereticos ad intelligendum verba haec, Hoc est corpus meum, propriè: sed tenendum hoc esse solùm ex authoritate Ecclesiae quae ita verba consecrationis declarat. There is nothing in the Gospel whereby an Hereticke may bee inforced to expound the words, This is my body, properly: but men are to beleeue so, because the Church tea­cheth so. And Contra Cap­tiuit. Babilon. cap. 10. nu▪ 2. Fisher Bishop of Rochester confes­seth, Neque vllum hîc (viz. in Matth.) verbum positum est, quo probetur in nostra Missa veram fieri carnis & sanguinis Christi praesentiam. There is not a word in S. Matthews Gospel whereby it can be proued, that [Page 13] Christ is really present in your Sacrament. Your second instance had need be plainer.

My second instance is plaine enough: for Answ. to M. Charks Preface p. 27.we haue expresly, The bread which I will giue, is my flesh, Ioh. 6. 51.

For what opinion of yours are these words so plaine?

For the former point: euen for the Reall presence in the Sacrament. And yet Ibid.you ex­pound them, as if no more were meant by them, then that wee should haue giuen vs the signe of his flesh onely.

We doe not expound them so: We Rainold Con­fer. Cap. 2. diuis. 2. p. 67. & 68.say, That the wordes are meant of Christ himselfe, the word that was made flesh, Ioh. 1. 14. Wee ex­pound them not of the signe of his flesh. We teach, That Ioh. 6. v. 32.the true bread, V. 33.the bread of God, which came downe from heauen, and giueth life vnto the world, Ioh. 6. v. 35. & 48.is Christ, V. 51.euen the flesh, the very flesh of Christ, that is, Christ incarnate: and that hee gaue vs this bread to eate, not in the Sacrament, but vp­on the Crosse. And this exposition of ours is appro­ued for good by Gabriel Biel, Lect. 84. super Canon. Missae. By Nic. Cusanus Epist. 7. ad Bohemos. By Caietan in 3. part. Tho. 9. 80. Art. vlt. By Ruard. Tapperus in explicat. Artic. 15. Louan. To. 2. By Hessels, lib. de Com­munione sub vnicaspecie. Tract. 1. By Iansen. Concord. Euang. cap. 59. as Bellarmine acknowledgeth, lib. 1. de Euch. cap. 5. And your selfe cannot with any reason maintaine the contrary, if you will bee tried by the expresse wordes. For you deny that Christ gaue bread at the celebration of this Sacrament. He gaue [Page 14] shewes of bread, not bread indeed, according to your learning. What is your third instance?

Answ. to M. Charks Preface, p. 27. We haue expresly, touching the Apostles inequalitie, He that is great among you, let him be made as the younger, Luk. 22. whereas you say, There was none greater then other among them.

Here is some little shew, and no substance. For it is plaine by the expresse wordes of our Saui­our, Matth. 20. 25. and Mark. 10. 41. That no more is meant by the wordes you cite then this, viz. Hee that would bee great among you, let him bee made as the younger, which makes nothing for you, nor against vs. What is your fourth instance?

Ibid. Wee haue expresly, A man is iustified by workes, and not by faith onely, Iam. 2. 24. which is di­rectly opposite to that which you hold, Man is not iustified by good workes, but by faith only.

We doe not deny, that before men, and with men: A man may be iustified by workes. Wee deny only, That before God a man may be iustified by workes. Now Saint Iames speaks of Iustification, which is before, or with men: not of that which is before God, wherof Saint Paul speakes, from whom we gather our assertion. And that this is so, Comment in Iam. 2. 24. Tho. of Aquin confesseth, for Iacobus hîc loquitur de operi­bus sequentibus fidem, quae dicuntur iustificare, non se­cundum quod iustificare dicitur institiae infusio; sed se­cundum quod dicitur iustitiae exercitatio, vel ostensio, vel consummatio. S. Iames speaks here of Iustification, as it is taken for manifestation and approuing of iu­stification, saith Thomas. And so, these wordes doe neither make any thing for you, nor against vs. [Page 15] What is your fifth instance?

Answ. to M. Charks Prefece, pa. 28. We haue expresly, Whose sins yee forgiue, are forgiuen: Whose sinnes yee retaine, are retained, Ioh. 20.

And what of this? make these wordes a­gainst vs?

Yea, for Ibid.you say, Priests cannot forgiue, or retaine sins in earth.

You say truely. See a lear­ned discourse hereof in the Answere to a challenge made by a Iesuit in Ireland. p. 109. &c.Wee beleeue that Mini­sters (Priests as you call them) haue power to for­giue and retaine sinnes on earth. The difference be­tweene vs and you is about the manner, which is not determined by those wordes, and about which you agree not among your selues. What is your sixtinstance?

Answ. to M. Charks Preface, p. 28. We haue expresly, The doers of the Law shall be iustified, Rom. 2. 13. Yet you say, The doing ther­of iustifieth not Christians.

We say, That if a man can bring the Iustice which the Law requires, he shall be iustified there­by. But who can bring that, seeing in many things we sin all? Iam. 3. 2. What is your seuenth instance?

Answ. to M. Charks Preface, p. 28. We haue expresly, Vow yee, and render your vowes, Psal. 75.

And how then? makes this against vs?

Yo [...], for Ibid.you teach; Wee should not vow, or if we vow, we ought to breake our vowes.

We doe not; A man, according to our Re­ligion, may vow in some cases, and vpon some occa­sions, as is plaine by Caluin. Iusti­tut lib. 4. cap. 13our bookes, and acknow­ledged by Lib▪ 2. de Mo­nach. cap. 15. Bellarmine himselfe: and, by our Reli­gion, he needs not vow; for vouere nusquam est prae­ceptum. [Page 16] Its no where commanded that wee should vow, saith Bell. lib. 2. de Monath. cap. 16.one. And Fateor quia Deus non praecipit, sed tantum consulit nobis vt aliquid illi v [...]ueamus, I confesse that God commaunds vs not, but onely counsells vs to vow vnto him, saith an Alfons. de Castro adu. haer.other of you. Againe, 14. verba vo [...] [...] Trauerse in his Answ. to a Popish Treatise written to the Lords of the Council, p 173we teach, That when a man hath vowed a thing lawful, honest, and possible, he ought inuiolably to obserue it. And how then makes this text more for you, then for vs?

Answ to M. Charks Preface, p. 28. Wee haue expresly, Keepe the traditions which you haue learned either by word, or by Epistle, 2 Thes. 2. 15. yet, Ibid.you say, The Apostles left no­thing to the Church vnwritten.

Wee say indeed, That the Apostles left no necessary tradition to the Church vnwritten: but wee doe not say, That S. Paul left no traditions to the Church of the Thessalonians vnwritten by him to them. We grant, that he deliuered to the Thes­salonians traditions, which hee did not write in his Epistles which he writ to them. But what he deli­uered by word to them, and not by way [...] Epistle, that was written either by other holy men of God, or by himselfe in the Epistles which hee sent to o­thers. So that though hee deliuered to the Thessa­lonians traditions, which he writ not in his Epistles sent to them: it followes not thereon, that he left some vnwritten [necessary] traditions to the Church in generall. What is your next instance?

Answ to M. Charks Preface, p. 28. Wee haue expresly, If thou wit enter into life, keepe the Commandements, Matth. 19. 17. Yet you say, The Commaundements cannot bee kept; yea, you Ibid.say, We are not bound vnto them.

We confesse that we are bound to keepe the Commandements; And if any be desirous to haue life euerlasting, by doing some good thing, as this young man was, to whom Christ spake these words, Hee must keepe the Commandements. Yet wee say, It followes not. He that would haue life euerl [...] ­sting by doing some good, must keepe the Com­mandements. Ergo, the Commandements may b [...] kept: for by▪ Gods Commandements wee learne what we should doe.

Yea but Answ. to M. Charks Preface p. 28.we haue expresly, That when the young man said, hee had already kept the Com­mandements; it was said vnto him, [...]f thou wilt bee perfect, goe and sell all things thou hast, and giue to the poore, and follow mee. Which shewes there is one de­gree of life perfecter then another.

Nay, not so: It rather shewes there is but one degree of life which is perfect, euen that which consists in keeping the Commaundements; and (which is more) Counsells. For vpon the young mans asse [...]eration, that he had kept all the Com­mandements from his youth, it is not said: If thou wilt be more perfect; but, If thou wilt be perfect, as though there were no perfection attained vnto by keeping the whole Law. But indeede the young man lied in saying, he had kept all the Commande­ments from his youth. Else our Sauiour must bee thought to haue spoken ouer, when hee said, Ioh. 7. 19. Did not Moses giue you a law, and yet none of you keepes the law? Haue you any moe instances?

Yea, many: for Pref supra [...]it. wee haue expresly, worke your owne saluation with feare and trembling.

And what gather you of that against vs:

Ibid. s That a man should not make it of his be­liefe, that hee shall bee saued without all doubt and feares.

Why▪ may not a man feare to offend God, vnlesse he doubt that he shall finally fall away from God? Are not those wiues most fearefull to offend their husbands: and those children most fearefull to offend their fathers: who are best assured of their husbands, and parents constant loue vnto them? Feare of Gods anger against vs, by reason of our sins, may well stand with assurance of saluation. Else, why did Psal. 2. 11. Dauid require, That wee should serue the Lord in feare, and reioyce in trembling? May a man tremble, and yet reioyce? and may hee not feare to offend, and yet be assured of fauour?

Well, Praf. supracit.wee haue expresly, That euery man shall be iudged according to his workes, A poc. 20.

Good: And so haue wee.

Nay: Ibid.you teach, That men shall be iudged only according to their faith.

That is not true: See M. Cart­wrights Answ, to the Rhem. Matth. 25. 35.We teach, that seeing it is most fitting for the nature and condition of iudgements, to take the euidence whereupon the sentence shall bee pronounced, from such things as are most notorious: the works good or euill being knowne both to Men and Angells, whereas faith, which hath her seat in the heart is only seene of the Lord: it is most conuenient for iustifying the truth of the Iudge before the world, that those things should bee giuen in euidence, which fall into the knowledge of the standers by; especially when the [Page 19] godly themselues shall be admitted into part of the honour of our Sauiour Christs iudiciall sentence a­gainst the reprobates. And for this cause it is (as we say) that our Sauiour at the latter day will say, Come yee blessed of my Father—For when I was hungry you gaue me meate—rather then, For that you haue be­leeued in mee. Haue you any more to say?

Yea: Praf. supra [...]it.Wee haue expresly, That there re­mains a retribution, stipend, and pay to euery good worke in heauen, Mark. 9. 1 Corinth. 3. Apoc. 22. Psal. 118.

And doe wee denie it? See Trauerse Answ. to a Popish Treatise to the Lords of the Councel, p. 267.Wee beleeue no good deed shall be lost: no not the bestowing of a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple. Where­fore this makes nothing against vs.

Yea, but Ibid.you teach, Good workes done in Christ merit nothing.

Yea, but it is one thing to teach, That good works done in Christ find retribution and paiment in heauen: and another thing to say, They merit some things: for retribution and stipends, and paies are as well giuen of curtesie, as of debt or merit. Wherefore we teach the former, and deny the lat­ter. VVhat is your next instance?

Pref. cit. p. 29. Wee haue expresly, That the affliction which Daniel vsed vpon his bodie was acceptable in the sight of God, Dan. 10.

And what is that to vs?

Much: for Ibid.you teach, That such volunta­ry corporall afflictions are in vaine.

But wee doe not. Wee teach with S. Paul, 1 Tim. 4. 8. that Corporall exercise (voluntarie corpo­rall [Page 20] afflictions) are profitable to little. There is some good vse of them. Not a man of vs teacheth, that such voluntary corporall afflictions as Daniel vsed, and to such end as hee did vse them are in vaine. Haue you not done?

No: Bristow Mo­tiue 48. wee haue a plaine text, Gen. 48. God who hath fed mee from my youth vp euen to this day: The Angel who hath deliuered mee from all aduers [...]ie blesse these children. Dowis [...]s Anno­tas. vpon Gē. 48 Which implies as much as if we would say, God and our Ladie blesse them.

By the Angel, which is here praied vnto, is not meant any created Angel: but the Angel of the euerlasting Couenant, Christ Iesus; as it is plaine by the See marg. Notes on our Bibles vpon Gen. 48.circumstances of the text, and by that te­stimony of the Athanas. orat. 4. adu. Arianos, p. 260 edit. Co­melin. Graecolat. A. 1600. ci [...]il. l. 3 Thesauri, Noua­tian, apud Tertul. de Trinitate c. 15 & 27.Fathers. And therfore this praier doth not iustifie your praier, God and our Lady blesse them. No man euer conceiued a praier after this manner; Det tibi Deus & Angelus, that is in effect, God and our Lady blesse them, saith Loco citato. Athanasius.

Answ. to M. Charks Preface, p. 29. and Bri­flow Motiue 48. We haue expresly: It is an holy cogitati­on to pray for the dead, 2. Mach. 12.

Yea, but the Booke of Machabees is not Ca­nonicall Scripture, as I shall proue vnto you ere wee part. Now I looke for proofe at your hands out of the Canonicall Scripture.

Why then, if I should tell you, Ibid.we read ex­presly in the same Booke, that Ieremy the Prophet after hee was dead praied for the people of Israel: wherby is proued Intercession of Saints; you would put mee off with this, That the Scripture alledged by me is not Canonicall Scripture.

I might doe so: yet I need not, for we de­ny [Page 21] not that Saints make intercession for vs in gene­rall. And your Lib. 1. de sancta. beatit. c. 18. Bellarmine alledgeth this to that purpose only. Hee alledgeth it not either to proue Inuocation of Saints; or the intercession of Saints in particular.

And what would you answere me if I vrged, That Answ. to M. Charks Preface, p. 29.wee haue an expresse example of an holy man that offered sacrifice for the dead, 2 Mach. 12.

I would answere you to it; That the holy man you meane of, offered sacrifice for the liuing and not for the dead. And for the full proofe there­of, I would referre you to Doctor Reinolds Readings vpon the Apocrypha, praelect. 158.

And what answere should I looke to receiue of you vpon mention, that Tobit. 12. Pref. citas.wee read ex­presly, That an Angel did present Tobias good workes and almes deeds before God.

My answere to that should bee, That the booke is Apocrypha.

And is not the Booke of Ecclesiasticus Apo­crypha, Gap. 16. 15.in which wee read expresly thus: Omnis misericordia faciet locum vnicuique secundum meritum operum; Mercie shall make a place to euery man ac­cording to the merit of his workes?

Yes: but I will vse the exception in this case. The exception which I take is, that the wordes are cited out of a corrupt Translation: for in the Greek, wherein Ecclesiasticus was first written, there is no mention made of merit. To euery pitlifull act of good­nesse giue place, for euery one shall find (not according to the merit of his works, but) according to his works, saith the Greeke.

Indeed I confesse, the word merit is not in the Greeke: for the word merit is not Greeke, but La­tine; yet the Greeke wordes are well translated by the word merit, no man can deny who knowes the rudiments of Greek: for in the Greek it is, [...], which in Latine signifies as much as pro meritis o­perum.

Indeed you fit it: for our Sauiour Christ, warning his disciples how they should carry them­selues towardes the Scribes and Pharisies: Doe not ( Matth. 23. saith hee) [...] (not meaning after the merit of their workes, but simply) after their works. Your great M. Lib. 2. de verbo Dei c. 12. & l. 5. de Iustif▪ c. 2.Cardinal Bellarmine, of whom you had this, was deceiued.

And is that proofe, which Bell. l. 5. de Iu­stif. c. 2.we fetch for merits out of Heb. 13. 16. fetched out of a corrupt translation, Beneficence and communication forget not; for with such sacrifices God is promerited.

Yea verily: for according to the Greeke the Apostle saith no more, but: That with such hosts God is wel pleased. And that may appeare vnto you by this, that both Lib. 10. de Ci­uit. d [...]i cap. 5. S. Austine, and In bunc locum. Beda read so; and a Cor. 5. 9. & Heb. 11. 5. 6.your own Translator else where translates so.

Yet See Rhem. Annot. in Heb. 13. 16. Primasius S. Austines Scholler reads it as it is in our vulgar Latin: With such hosts God is pro­merited.

Yea, but how know you that that Com­mentarie is Primasius his owne? for it is the selfe same which is fathered on Haymo, who liued after the yeere 800. whose credit is nothing answerable to Primasius.

Well, let both these places passe. Brislow Mo­tiue 48.Is not a [Page 23] plaine text for extreme vnction, which is in S. Iames, Infirmatur quis in vobis—If any among you bee dangerously sicke, let him send for the Priests of the Church, and they to pray ouer him, anealing him with oyle in the name of the Lord.

Of whom learned you to translate Infirmatur quis in vobis. If any man bee dangerously sicke, &c. I thought the word Infirmatur, had signified any infirmitie, great or small growing vpon a man. And if so, then the text makes as much against you as vs. For first, you aneale not all such persons as are in­firm, but only such as you suppose to be desperately sicke, sick vnto death. Secondly, you send not Pres­biters, Priests: but any one bold Priest to anoint them, and pray ouer them. Thirdly, you intend principally in anealing them, the forgiuenesse of sinnes: whereas by the text is principally intended, the curing of them of their infirmities. Which is so plaine that a Cardinall of your owne renounceth this text as not making for you.

What Cardinall is that?

Comment in Lic. 2. 14. Caietan, whose wordes these are: Nec ex verbis, nec ex effectu verba haec loquuntur de sacramen­tali vnctione extreme vnctionis: sed mag is de vnctio­ne quam instituit Dominus Iesus in Euangelio à disci­pulis exercendam in agr [...]tis. Textus enim non dicit: Infirmatur quis in vobis ad mortem sed absolute, infir­matur quis. Et effectam dicit, infirmi alleuiationem: & de remissione peccatorum non loquitur nisi conditionali­ter: quum extrema vnctio non nisi prope articulum mortis datur. Et directe (vt eius forma sona [...] tendi [...] ad remissionem peccatorum: praeter hoc quod Iacobus ad [Page 24] vnum agrum multes presbyteros tum orantes, tum vn­gentes mand [...]t vocari, quod ab extrema vnctionis rit [...] alienum est.

But is not that a plaine text for proofe of sa­tisfaction, which is alledged by Ans. to Iewels pology part. 2. cap. 16. fol. 117.Doctor Harding, out of 2 Cor. 7. 1.

What are the words?

Seeing then wee haue these promises dearely be­loued, let vs clense our selues from all filthinesse of the flesh and spirit, making perfect our satisfaction in the feare of God.

These are plaine words I promise you. But I doe not remember that I euer read such words, ei­ther in the Greeke, or in any translation. Your Doctor (I beleeue) hath shewed a piece of cunning, and chopt in the word satisfaction, for sanctificati­on, and quite altered the Apostles meaning.

God forbid he should haue dealt so naughti­ly: But what say you to the text alledged by Confess. Petri­koni [...] c. 48. de sa­crā. p [...]nit. f. 127Car­dinal Hosius out of Rom. 6. 19. for the same doctrine of Satisfaction. Is it not pregnant to his purpose?

How cites he it?

Exhibeamus membra nostra seruire iustitiae in satisfactionem. Let vs exhibit our members to serue iustice vnto satisfaction.

In good earnest this is a plaine text: but it is none of Saint Pauls. It is one of your Cardinalls owne making. As Harding in the former, so your Cardinall in this hath chopt in the word satisfacti­on, for sanctification, and made a proposition of his owne, different from S. Pauls: I wish it were no Ar­gument of their sanctification to deale so falsly with [Page 25] the Scriptures: they had need to make satisfaction (though not to God, because they cannot,) yet to his Church for such bad dealing.

But are there not expresse words for the su­premacy of S. Peter, Matt. 16. where we read thus: Thou art a rocke, and vpon this rocke will I build my Church. M. Walsingham saith. That the Author of the answere to M. Charks booke giues this for one in­stance, in way of prouing that expresse Scripture is for vs.

I know no such text in S. Matthew, as; Thou art a Rock—I finde there, Thou art Peter, and vpon this rocke I will build my Church: but, Thou art a rocke, and vpon this rocke I will build my Church, is not in any booke, nor in any Bible that I haue seene.

Are these words; Exod. 12. 16. Dies prima erit sancta & septima eadem Religione venerabiles, The first day shal be holy, and the seuenth day with like religion shall be venerable: wherby Lib. de Imag. cap. 12.Cardinall Bellarmine would proue, That euery holy thing is to bee religiously worshipped: in your Bible mee thinkes they are plaine to proue his purpose.

Yea, but those are not in my Bible: nor in yours, I thinke, your false Cardinall hath most irre­ligiously chopt in a word religiously in the Text: make search, and trust me worse another time if it be not so.

I will, I warrant you. In the meane let mee heare what plaine Text▪ you can alledge for proofe of your opinions.

Content: Doe not these words in Deutro­nomy 4. 15, 16: Take heed vnto your selues, for yee saw [Page 26] no Image in the day that the Lord spake vnto you in He­reb—that yee corrupt not your selues, and make you a grauen Image, &c. plainely proue, That the Scrip­tures forbid the representing of God by any Image? And yet doe not yee represent God the Father by the Image of an old man? and the Bell lib. 2. de Imag. c. 8.most of you maintaine, That hee may lawfully be represented in such an Image?

I confesse with Lib. 2. de Ad [...] ­rat. c. 3. d [...]spu [...], 4. nu. 74. Vasquez, That in the words you cite, planè indicat Scriptura, &c. The Scripture speakes plainely, that God did forbid the Iewes to represent him by any Image. But you must know, that Ioh. Ragusius Oras. habita in Conc. Basil, De Communione sub viraque specie. apud Binnium, To. 4. Conc. p. 297 Licet in lege veteri prohibitae fuissent lege d [...]u [...] ­na imagines visibiles, nedum ipsius Dei, sed qu rum­cunque sanctorum hominum, nec de post in Scripturis siue veteris siue Noui Testamenti concessa licentia eius faciendi aut fabricandi reperiatur; nihilominus Eccle­sia Catholica edocta à spiritu sancto, nedum permisit, imo statuit & ordinauit, vt venerabiles Imagines Christi, glori [...]sissimae suae matris, & caeterorum sanctorum fierent, &c. Though in old time the visible Images of God, yea, and of his Saints, were forbidden by the Law of God: and no libertie granted since, either in the Old or New Testament to make any such: yet the Church, which is taught of God, hath not onely permitted, but decreed and ordained, That the Images of Christ, and his blessed Mother the Virgin Mary, and the rest of the Saints may bee made for sundry good purposes.

What? dare you say, The Church hath de­creed contrary to that which God commanded in holy Scripture? If so, you must needs grant, That the [Page 27] Scripture in this is for vs, and against you. The pre­tended Church, not the Scripture, is for you onely. Wherefore to goe on.

The Scriptures forbid expresly, The adoring or seruing of any similitude or Image, Exod. 20. 4. yet you Bell. lib. 2. de Imag. c. 12.teach, That Similitudes (Images of Christ and his Saints) may be adored and serued.

I confesse with Lib. supra cit. c. 2. [...]isp. 4. [...] 70 Vasquez here also, That the Law giuen to the Iewes forbad, Non solum cultum Idol [...]latri [...], sed quamuis adorationem & vsum imagi­num: Not onely that adoration and seruice which was due to God; but all manner of adoration and seruing Images. But the case is now altered.

Yet in the maine it appeares, That in this the Scripture is for vs also. And is not Exod. 21. 14. so too, wherin we find an expresse commandement, binding vs to take the wilful Murtherer from Gods Altar, that he may die: seeing you haue sanctuaries out of which no malefactor, no murtherer, may bee taken that iudgement may passe on him?

I confesse with De Inuent. Re­rum. l. 3. c. 12. Polidore Virgil, Sunt in orbe nostro Christiano passim Asyla, qua non in insidias timentibus, sed quibusuis sontibus etiam Maie statis reis patent. There are many sanctuaries amongst vs, which are receptacles not onely for such as are a­fraid of mischiefe towardes themselues, but to all malefactors, euen to Traytors. And I for my part confesse further with him, Ibid. Quod templa nostra vbi­que gen [...]ium istiusmedi sceleratis hominibus instar Asy­lorum sunt, & id contra quam Moses constituer at, Exo­dus 21. That our Churches in all places serue for sanctuaries to all manner of wicked persons, though [Page 28] God by Moses did forbid the same, Exod. 21. To tel you truely, I thinke it is plaine, that Nihil immunita­tis sac [...]r prestaret locus, The holinesse of the place should not priuiledge wilfull murtherers: though it be to true which Annotat ad mores in Exo. 21. Hieronimus ab Olea stro writes, nūc sacra loca homicidarum & id genus peccatorum, spelun­cae factae sunt: Holy places at this day are made re­fuges for murtherers, and such like wicked persons.

Well then, the Scripture in this is ours▪ and so I doubt not, you will confesse, that Scrip­ture is, wherein the Stewes and Brothel houses are expresly condemned, viz. Deut. 23. 17. for they are tolerated Brer [...]ley c. 16. sect. 3. of S. Au­stines Religion. Harding in his Confutation of Iewels Apologyand defended by you.

I know they are tolerated in some Catho­like Countries, and defended by some Catholikes. But I am of In Manaali c. 17 n. 195. quinto Nauarrus minde, Magis expediret non permittere: It were better they were not tolerated. I thinke De Contin [...]ntia l. 3. c. 4. p. 236. Espenceus had iust cause to say, Huius per­missionis nos non semel pudurt, Christianam scilicet Remp. eo carere non posse, quod tandiu, hoc est, annis plus 1500. non admisit M [...]saica. I haue beene often ashamed to thinke of the toleration for Stewes: That the Christian Common-wealth should not be able to stand without admission of that which the Common-wealth of Israel by the space of 1500. yeeres and vpward, would neuer admit of. What other instance haue you?

The Scriptures forbid expresly, The mar­rying of a mans Aunt; and of a Brothers wife; Le­uit. 18. v. 14. & 16. Yet you approue the Nephewes marrying his Aunt: and of any mans marrying his Brothers wife, if the parties haue your Popes dis­pensation. [Page 29] Doe you thinke that your Popes dispen­sations will stand good against the Scriptures?

Yea; in things forbid [...] [...] positiue, proprio Iudaeorum: By some positi [...]e Law peculiar to the Iewes: though not in things forbidden, iure naturae, by the law of Nature. Now these kinds of marria­ges were forbidden, not by the law of Nature, but by a positiue law peculiar to the Iewes, as you may see in Lib. 1. de Ma­trimon c 27.Card [...]nall Bellarmine.

These marriages were forbidden by the law of Nature, and not by a positiue law peculiar to the Iewes: for the Heathen, who liued in Canaan before the Iewes, and were not punishable for brea­king of positiue lawes peculiar to the Iewes, but for breaking of the lawes of nature; by these, and such like marriages defiled the Land▪ and for such mar­riages the Land did spue them out, as you may see, Leuit. 18. 27, 28. and of which you may read more in your learned Frier Hieronimus ab Oleastro Expo­sit ad literam in Leuit. 18. Wherefore to proceed.

In the Scriptures it is expresly written, That a man cannot lay his hand vpon the Lords anoin­ted and be guiltlesse, 1. Sam. 26. 9. Yet Ioh. Mariana l. 1. de Regu. c. 6.you teach contrary.

In 1 King. 2. 27Scriptures we read expresly, That a Prince de­posed euen the high Priest: but no where that a Priest deposed a lawfull Prince. Yet by your Bell. l. 5. de Ro. Pont. c. 27.I [...] ­suiticall Religion, A Pope may depose a lawfull Prince: but a Prince may not depose a Priest.

The Scriptures require expresly, That they who vow, should vow vnto the Lord, Psal. 76. 11. and te­stifie as expresly. That all the vowes recorded in [Page 30] them were made vnto the Lord: insomuch that your Lib. 3. di▪ culiu sanctis. c. 5.Cardinall Bellarmine was forced to confesse, Cum scriberentur Scripture Sancta, nondum coeperat vsus vouendi sanctis, When the Scriptures were written, it was not the vse to vow to Saints. Yet you doe ordinarily vow to Saints, and take vpon you the Iustifying of vowes to Saints.

The Scriptures require expresly, That when men pray, they should pray vnto the Lord, Psalme 50. 51. Matt. 6. 9. and testifie as expresly, That all the prayers of holy men recorded in them were made vnto the Lord: insomuch that some of your grea­test Bar [...]e [...] in 2. 3. The. quast▪ [...]. Art. 10. 2. Con­ [...]lus [...] ▪ C [...]l. 269.Clerks confesse, Orationes esse ad sanct [...]s faci­endas, neque expressè, neque impressè, & inuolutè sacra liter [...] docent. The holy Scriptures neither teach ex­presly, nor impliedly, that prayers may bee made to Saints. Yet Bell. l. 1. de sanct. be [...]it. [...]. 19.you do ordinarily pray to Saints, and iustifie your practise of praying to Saints.

The Scriptures require expresly, That men should beleeue in God, 2 Chro. 20. 20. and as expresly com­mend them who beleeue in God, 1 Pet. 1. 8. yet Bell. lib. citat. c. [...]0. Rh [...]m. An­not. in Ro. 10. 14.you of later yeeres haue begun to teach, That wee may beleeue in men.

Why say you, That of later yeeres, we haue begun to teach, That men may beleeue in men: Did not our Church teach alwaies so?

No: fiue or sixe hundred yeeres agoe such doctrine went not for currant in your Church; for when Gualterus Mape lib. de Nu­gis Cu [...]ali [...]m dist. 1. c. 3. M. S. in Bibl. [...]dl [...]iana O [...].the Waldensians in a Councell holden at Rome, vnder Alexander the third, were asked by one Gualter Mape, whether they beleeued in the Mother of Christ: they answered, that they did so, Ab omni­bus [Page 31] sunt multiplici clamore derisi. They were laught to scorne by the Pope and all the Councell. Which shewes that the doctrine of beleeuing in Saints, was then a ridiculous doctrine euen in your Church.

The Scripture requires expresly, That men should trust in God, Psal. 115. 9, 10, 11. and as expresly curseth them who trust in man, Ierem. 17. 5. yet you like well, that men should trust in men: else would you burne the Virgin Maries Psalter made by Bo­nauenture, Psal. 10. 1. & 30. 1. & 70. 1. & 124▪ 1.in which there is so often mention of trusting in our Ladie, as hereafter I shall shew you.

The Scriptures teach expresly, That sacrifices are due to God onely, Exod. 22. 20. and testifie as ex­presly, That holy men did sacrifice to God onely. Yet Bell. l. 2. de Imag. c. 17.you do sacrifice to Images; for you burne In­cense to them.

I confesse we burne Incense to Images: but I deny, that that is to sacrifice to them.

They who burnt Incense to any thing, but God, are Ier. 44. 23.reproued in the Old Testament, euen they 2. Ki [...]g [...] 18.who burnt Incense to the Brazen Serpent, though the Serpent was a figure of Christ: And it belonged to the Priest only to burn Incense. Which argues, That to burne Incense, was to sacrifice in old time; and that you in burning Incense to Ima­ges, doe sacrifice vnto them.

Bell. lo [...]o pr [...] ­ime citat [...]. To burne Incense was a sacrifice in old time, but so it is not now; for wee see such as are no Priests burne it in our Churches.

So 2 Ch [...]. [...] 1 [...].some who were no Priests tooke vpon them to burne Incense in the old Law. And there­fore, if because it is burned now by them who are [Page 32] no Priests, it followes: Ergo, it is no sacrifice now. Surely by the same reason we must deny, that it was a sacrifice in old time. But see I pray you, at leasure, how fully this foolery is discouered by De lib. Apoc. praelect. 243.D. Rai­nolds, and let vs proceed.

In the Scripture Priests are expresly forbidden to shaue their heads, Ezech. 44. 20. yet Rhem. Annot. in 2 Thess, 3. 10.the Reli­gious sort among you must haue their heads shauen.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him onely shalt thou serue, Matt. 4. 10. Yet Rhem, Annot, in Heb. 11. 21.you teach, That a man may worship Hee Saints, and Shee Saints: yea Relikes, besides the Lord his God.

In the Scriptures it is expresly written, Matt. 6. 7.When yee pray vse no vaine repititions. Yet Polid, Virgil de Inuent. rerum l. 5. [...]. 9.you haue appointed a forme of praier vpon the Beads: in which the Aue Mary is to be said one hundred and fiftie times, and the Pater Noster fifteene, and the Creed thrice. Besides, since that you haue set vs out a Iesus Psalter, in which there is a forme of praier, wherein fifteen such petitions as this, Iesu, Iesu, Iesu, giue mee here my purgatory, are to bee repeated ten times, which makes in all one hundred and fiftie petitions, in which the name of Iesus is repeated foure hundred and fiftie times: which argue yee al­low of vaine repetitions.

In the Scriptures it is expresly written, Matt. 15. 9. That in vaine they worship God, who teach for doctrines mens commandements. Yet Vaux in Catech. [...]. 3. Bell. in Ca­tech. c. 7. Tabula Xristiana Relig. in Exam. Ordi­nand.you, ouer and besides the Commandements of God, haue written others; which some of you call the commandements of the [Page 33] Church: some commandements of the Canon law; which are at fewest, fiue; if not sixe: some say, Ten, euen iust as many as those of Gods; which you vrge more strictly then the Commandements of God: for, Grauius plectitur contra vnum Papae decretum, quā delinquens contra diuinum praeceptum & Euan geltum: Hee that offends against the Popes Law, is more grieuously punished, then he who offends against Gods Law and the Gospel, saith In 3. parte operum. Tit. de asrections Cordis Consid. 30. Gerson.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, That who­soeuer shall put away his wife, except it bee for whoredome, and marries another, commits adulte­ry, Matt. 19. 9. Yet Guicciard in Hist lib. 4.your Alexander the sixt, con­sented that Lewis the twelfth of France, should put away his wife, because shee was barren and defor­med; & marry Anne, the wife to Lewis the eleuenth, his predecessour. And your C. Laudabi­lem de conuersio­ne sidelium ag­noscente Bell. l. 4. de R [...]. Pont c. 14.Pope Coelestine the third, set forth a Decree, That when, of married per­sons, the one falleth into heresie, the marriage is dis­solued, and the Catholike partie is free to marrie a­gaine.

In the Scriptures it is expresly written, Mark. 16. 9.That our Sauiour after his Resurrection appeared first to Mary Magdalen: yet many of you say, Wee must beleeue he first appeared to his Mother Mary.

True: for To. 3 [...] Ma­ [...] part. 10. se [...]. 2. de ga [...]dijs Mariae part. 5. f [...]l. 347. Bernardinus de Bustis, hauing noted, That our Sauiour after his Resurrection ap­peared first vnto his Mother, addes: Ft hanc opinio­nem tenet sancta Mater Ecclesia. And this is the opi­nion of our holy Mother the Church. And Annal. To. 1. ad An. 34 n. 183 Baro­nius falling to speake of the same point, Vetus tradi­tio per manus maiorum, ac per subsequentia secula ad [Page 34] posteros dilapsa testatur Christum dominum nostrum ap­paruisse pr [...]mum omnium sanctissimae genetrici Mariae: quod nemo pius puto, neg ar it. It is, saith hee, an anci­ent tradition of our Ancestors, which is come to vs from hand to hand, that our Sauiour Christ appea­red first to his most holy Mother Mary, and I thinke no godly man will deny it.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, That Mark. 3. 29.hee who blasphemeth against the holy Ghost shall neuer bee forgiuen: Yet Bell. l. 2 de Pae­nitentia, c. 16you teach, That blasphemy against the holy Ghost may bee forgiuen.

In the Scripture we read expresly, That S. Iohn was the disciple whom Iesus loued, Ioh. 13. 23. com­pared with Chap. 21. 20. & 24. And yet you will needs it was Saint Peter whom Iesus loued most in­tirely.

In the Scripture wee read expresly, That when Cornelius met S. Peter, and fell at his feete to adore him: S. Peter reproued him for it. Act. 10. 25, 26. Yet your Ps [...]udo-Peters are so farre from refusing adora­tion when it is offered, that Pius 2. Malli­ensibus ali­quandi [...]s visendū s [...] adorandum (que) praebuit. Pi [...]olom, Card. [...] Papy [...]nsis in Epist. Card. Se­ninsi. & Com­mentar. l. 1.some of them haue presented themselues to the people that they might be adored.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, That our Sauiour speaking of the Sacramentall Cup, said: Drinke yee all of this, Matth. 26. 27. Yet, Suarez in 3. part. Tho q 80. Act. 12. disput. 71. sect. 2. [...] 905you say; All need not drinke thereof. Yea, yee say, All shall not drinke thereof: Patris & Primitiua Ecclesia popu­lum a Commun [...]one Calicis non prohibebant, nos arce­mus, &c. The Fathers in the Primitiue Church did not forbid the people to drinke of the Cup, but we [Page 35] driue them from it, saith Epist. 130. Aeneas Syluius.

That which was the Sacramentall Cup, after the words of Consecration in the Scripture, is expresly called, The fruit of the Vine, Matth. 26. 29. Yet yee say, That after words of Consecration vttered, it is not the fruit of the Vine, Wine; which is in the Sa­cramentall Cup, but blood.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, That the other element deliuered by our Sauiour Christ to his Apostles, at the celebration of the Communi­on was Bread: for so it is [...] Cor. 11, 26, 27, 28.called after the words of Consecration vttered, as well as before: Yet ye say, That after the words of Consecration vttered, it is not Bread, which is deliuered to the Commu­nicants.

In the Scriptures wee read expresly, That S. Paul in nothing was inferiour to the chiefe Apostles, 1 Cor. 12. 11. Yet Baron. Annal. To. 1. ad An. 34. nu. 207.ye push at it when we tell you, S. Paul was equall to Peter in power.

In the Scriptures we read expresly, That a man is iustified by faith, without the works of the Law, Rom. 3. 28. Yet Rhem Annot. [...] 21.ye say, Workes iustifie.

In the Scripture we read expresly, That as [...]y one man, sinne entred into the world, and death by sinne▪ so death went ouer all men, in whom all men haue sinned, Rom. 5. 12. Yet Ehem. [...] yee say, The Virgin Mary neuer sinned.

In the Scriptures, Saint Paul speaking of Concu­piscence, in expresse termes calls it sinne, Rom. 6. 12. as you your selues confesse: Yet yee deny Concu­piscence is sin: and [...]tell vs soberly, that Apostolus Concupiscentiam peccatum vota [...], at non lice [...] nobis it a lo­q [...]: [Page 36] Though the Apostle calls it sinne, yet we may not call it so.

In the Scriptures we read expresly, That whatsoe­uer is not of faith is sin, Rom. 14. 23. Yet Rhem. Annot. in Ro. 14. 23.yee teach, That many actions done by Infidels are not finne.

In the Scriptures it is expresly written, That if any Brother haue a wife that beleeueth not, if she be content to dwell with him, hee should not forsake her: and if any woman haue an vnbeleeuing hus­band, who is content to dwell with her, shee should not forsake him. 1 Cor 7. 12, 13. Yet yee teach, That a beleeuing brother may put away his vnbeleeuing wife though she be content to dwell with him: and a beleeuing woman, may put away her vnbeleeuing husband, though he be content to dwell with her: Yea, ye teach, That the vnbeleeuing partie may not continue with the vnbeleeuing. They must part companie.

Indeed I read in Not in Conc. Yoles. 17. c. 8. To. 3. Conc. part. pri­or▪ p. 171. Binnius, that Licet in principie nascentis Ecclesi [...] erat licitum post susceptam sidem vi­rum fidelem ab vxore infideli non discedere vel contra, sed eandem in domo & commerci [...] manere vt constat ex Paulo: 1 Cor. 7. propter spem conuersionis alterius: ta­men ab hinc 800. annis Ecclesia contrarium pr [...]cepit, si [...]que lege, consuetudine, & vsu introductum est vt fi­delis non maneat cum in [...]i [...]eli, Though in the Prime age of the Church it was lawfull for the beleeuer to continue in the same house and fellowship with the vnbeleeuer, & not to make a separation, in hope the beleeuing partie might conuert the vnbeleeuing: yet the Church about eight hundred yeares agoe gaue commandement to the contrary. So that now [Page 37] partly by vertue of a law, partly by custome, it is ge­nerally receiued, That the beleeuing partie may not continue with the vnbeleeuing. And to con­fesse the whole truth, Inter Epistolas Indicas Scripta [...] Ormuti [...] A. 1551I read that Father Gaspar in India hauing baptized an honourable Indian La­die, when her husband made great meanes to haue her againe, being desired to deliuer his opinion in a Councell held about that matter, answered round­ly: That they ought not to giue holy things to dogs, nor the persons of such as praise God vnto beasts. Where­vpon it was concluded, Her husband should not haue her againe. Shee should bee married to an­other.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, Defraud not one another, except it bee with consent for a time, that you may giue your selues to Fasting and Praier, 1 Cor. 7. 5. Yet ye teach, A married man may goe in pilgrimage, euen to Ierusalem, without his wiues consent.

I grant Cap. ex multa. sect. in [...]anto. Extra. de rote & vo [...]i Redemp. Innocentius the third decreed so vp­on a speciall occasion: but I know not whether that Decree stand in force now. But proceed.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, That he who cannot abstaine should marrie, because it is bet­ter to marrie then to burne, 1 Cor. 7. 9. Yet Rhem. Annot. in 1 Cor. 7. 9.yee teach, That some such, as your Priests and Monkes may not marrie though they burne.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, That it is a shame for a woman to bee shauen, 1 Cor. 11. 6. Yet your Rhem Annot. in 2 Thess. 3 10.Nunnes are shorne.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, That Chri­stians should praise God in their assenblies, by sing­ing, [Page 38] Coloss. 3. 16. Yet ye will not allow them to sing in their assemblies. And this is confessed by your Not. in Cont. Laodic. Can. 15. To. 1. Cont p. 293 Binnius: for, Vt [...]ideles in suis conuentibus Psalmis & hymnis, alternatim corde simul & ore decan▪ at is De­um landent a Paulo ad Coloss. cap. 3. & ad Eph. cap. 5. praeceptum esse fat [...]mur. Sed dum olim vnà cum clericis etiam popolus promiscuè cantare [...], imper itiâ Canentium aliquando accidebat, vt ij, quorum vox inculta erat, aut absona Harmonicum illum Ecclesiastic [...] dignitati congruentem concentum planè corrumperent. Ad bo [...] er­go incommodum a cantu religioso tollendum Ecclesiast. institut. hisce optimè prouisum est, ne praeter cert [...]s ad hoc opus ascr [...]ptes al ij in Ecclesia psallerent. Wee con­fesse (saith he) Saint Paul commanded Christians to sing in their assemblies: but because it fell out, that some who had no skill in singing, sung with other who had skill, they marred the Musicke, it was very well prouided by Ecclesiasticall Institutions, That onely certaine Singing men and Quoristers should sing in Church assemblies.

In the Scripture wee read expresly, That praiers should be conceiued in knowne languages, 1. Cor. 14. Yet ye like not of that. Benedictus Montanus in 1 Cor. 14.A Parisian Doctor tells vs, Et si Apostolus linguâ intellect â preces velit cele­brari, tamen sanctam Ecclesiam iustissimis de causis con­tra statuisse, That though the Apostle thought good praier should bee in knowne languages; yet your Church vpon good reason hath decreed the con­trarie.

In the Scripture wee read expresly, That the vn­learned should say, Amen, at the end of praiers, 1 Cor. 14. 16. which they did euen, Ab initio nascentis [Page 39] Ecclesiae, from the Apostles time, as De Ritibus Ec [...]l. Cathol. l. 2. c. 17. [...]u. 2. Dorantes con­confesseth: Yet by your Religion, The Clerke of the Parish only is to say Amen, at the end of praiers.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, That he is cursed who abideth not in all things which are written in the Law to doe them, Gal. 3. 10. Yet Rhem. Annot. in Ro. 1. 32.yee teaching, That some sinnes are pardonable of their owne na­ture, must needs bee thought to teach by necessarie consequence, That euerie such man is not cursed.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, Euery man shall beare his owne burthen, Galat. 6. 5. Yet yee teach, That one man may beare anothers burthen: for Azorius Instit. Moral part 1. l. 7. c. 21. 7. qua­ritur.if one be enioined to fast, in part of Penance: another may fast for him.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, That the Mediator betweene God and man is one, and he is Christ Iesus, 1 Tim. 2. 5. Yet yee generally teach, That there are many mediators betweene God and man, moe then Christ Iesus.

That is our generall doctrine, I grant: Yet there are among vs who teach, Ioh. Hess [...]ls pro Inuccas. sanct. c. 5. Sanctos Angelos & homines non dicendos esse mediatores Dei & hominum, sed potius mediatores ad mediatorem: The holy Men and Angells are not to bee reputed mediators be­tweene God and man, but rather mediators be­tweene the Mediator: Yea some of vs simply denie that Saints be Mediators: Vniuer salis Ecclesia San [...] ­tos colit, sed non vt mediatores, The Catholike Church worshippeth Saints, but not as Mediators, [...]aith [...] Juth [...] ▪ d [...]g [...]ata Philip-pica 16. p. 206. & 216. Viruesius.

That doctrine is as false as the other, but it sufficeth mee that your ordinarie doctrine is proued [Page 40] to be contrarie to expresse Scripture. I will passe to another instance.

By expresse Scripture married men may be made Bishops, 1 Tim. 3. 2. Yet Dominicus So­to de Iustitia & [...]re l, [...] q. 6. p. 731.yee teach, Married men may not be made Bishops.

By expresse Scripture, they bee made Bishops who haue children, 1 Tim. 3 4. Yet Ioh. Franc. Ieo in Thesauro Fori Eccl. part. 1. c 3. de Elect. Epist. nu. 38. 39.your Clemens the eighth, would admit none to be Bishops who had children; though some of his predecessors did otherwise, yet his practise was according to your learning: For in Dist. 61. Cati­nensis.your Canon Law, Pope Pela­gius giuing one direction what manner of man hee should chuse for a Bishop, bids him looke vnto it, Nec vxorem habeat, nec filios: Hee neither haue wife nor children. Whereof some of you giue this rea­son, Ioh. Franc. Leo citat. & glossa apud Grat. d. 82 preposuisti ver­bo [...] Quia filius est Argumentum ambulans super ter­ram de incontinentia patris: Because children are ap­rant ambling Arguments of the Incontinencie of their fathers.

By expresse Scripture they are condemned who forbid marriage, 1 Tim. 4. 3. Yet yee doe so: for yee will not suffer Priests to marry.

Rhem. Annot. 1 Tim. 4. 3. They who forbid marriage as vnlawfull, such as the Manichees, are condemned: but not we, who only forbid some sorts of men to marry.

The Austin. Epist. 74.Manicheis did not forbid all men to marry; but onely their Elect, such as your Priests and Monkes. And therefore if the Manicheis bee hereby condemned; why not yee also?

In the Scriptures wee read expresly, That if any who beleeueth not, call a Christian to a feast, the Christian should cate of whatsoeuer is set before [Page 41] him, asking no question for conscience sake; 1 Co­rinth. 10. 27. Yet if one of you Papists bee bidden to a feast by a Protestant (of whom you make no more esteeme, then of one who beleeueth not) you will not eate of whatsoeuer is set before you.

1 Tim. 4. 3. By expresse Scripture they are condemned, who command men to abstaine from meats: Yet so doe you Papists. Erasm. Schol. in Epist. ad Epi­scop. Basil. de de­l [...]ctu ciborum. nu. 29. Qui gustauit ouum, trahitur in carce­rem: cogitur que de haeresi causam dicere: qui totam di­em Dominicam vacat temulentiae, scortis, & aleae, audit bellus home: He who eates an egge on a fasting day is committed to prison, and suspected for an Here­ticke: Hee who sits at the Ale-house all the Lords day, and giues himselfe to whoring, and dicing, is counted a good man and a true.

In the Esay 53. 6.Scripture wee read expresly, That the Lord laid vpon him (viz Christ) the iniquitie of vs all: and that it was 1 Pet. 3. 10.Christ, who suffered for our sinnes: and, 1 Pet. 2, 24, 25. bare them in his body on the tree: so that, by his stripes we are healed. Yet you Conc. Trid. Sess. 14. c. 8.teach, That sa­tisfaciendo patimur pro peccatis, By satisfactory works we must suffer for our sinnes: We, as well as Hee; Not hee only.

In the Scripture we read expresly, Heb. 7. 27.That our Sa­uiour Christ did but offer himselfe once: And yet you Con. Trid. Sess. 22. e. 1.say, That in precise manner hee offered him­selfe twice. Once at his last Supper; and againe, vp­on the Crosse.

Some of vs say so indeed: Velosillus Ad­uertent. in 2 To. Chrysost. ad 16. quasitum. Sua­rez in Tho. To. 3. d 74. sect. 2. The History of the Councel of Trent in Eng­lish, p. 545. & 555. & 574.But there was a hot contention about it in the Councell at Trent: a good sort maintaining resolutely, That he did not offer himselfe at the last Supper: Of which number [Page 42] that famous Mussus was one, Sixt. Senens. l. 4. verbo. Cor­nel. Mussus.who was a Preacher at twelue yeeres old, with whom all Italy was in ad­miration. But say on.

In the Scripture wee read expresly, Heb. 9. 25.That our Sauiour was not to offer himselfe often: Yet Conc. Trid. Sess. 22. c. 2.you teach, That he offered himselfe daily.

In the Scripture wee read expresly, Heb. 9. 25.That if Christ be often offered, hee must often suffer. But you deny, that hee suffers often, though you grant he is often offered.

In the Scripture we read expresly, Heb. 9. 22.That with­out shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Yet Bell. l. 2. de Missa c. 2.you teach▪ That your Masse is a propitiato­rie sacrifice for sin; though you acknowledge it an vnbloody sacrifice.

In the Scripture it is expresly written, Heb. 13. 4.That Marriage is honourable among all: And yet Rhem. Annot. in 1 Cor. 7. 9.you say, Marriage of Priests is the worst sort of inconti­nency.

In the Scripture we read expresly, Iames 3. 2.That in ma­ny things wee sinne all: Yet Bell. l 4. de [...] c. 13.you say, He who is iustified, Legem omnino implet, Keepes the Law wholly.

In the Scripture we read expresly, Apoc. 14. 13.That they are blessed who die in the Lord hereafter, for they rest from their labours: Yet Rhem. Annot. ibid.you teach, That ma­ny of those that die in the Lord goe to Purgatory: where their labour is greater then they euer vnder­went in this world.

To be briefe: In the Scripture we read expresly, That Christ is Eph. 5. 23.the Head, and 2 Cor. 1 [...]. 2.Spouse of the Church. Yet Bell. l. 2. de Rom. Pont. c. 31.you tell vs, The Pope is Head, and [Page 43] Spouse of the Church. In the Scripture wee read expresly, 1 Ioh. 1. [...].That it is the blood of Christ which clenseth vs from all sin: and yet you tell vs, That Holy-water, Holy-bread, Bishops▪ blessing, and such like will clense vs from many sinnes. In the e Matt. 25. 34, 41.Scrip­tures we read expresly of two places appointed for Soules after this life, Heauen, and Hell. And Bel. l. 2. de pur­gat. c. 6.yet you tell vs, there are foure places: Heauen, Hell, Purgatory, and Limbus puerorum; yea, and perhaps Bell. l. 2. de purg. c. 7.a fift differing from all these. By all which doe not you see how plaine, and how plentifull the Scriptures are which make for vs, and against you in matters controuersed? Doe not you see Hil, in his Quarterne of Reasons, reason 8. p. 41.his fals­hood, who said; The Catholikes follow the Bible, but the Protestants force the Bible to follow them?

I see you huddle vp one Scripture in the neck of another readily: [...] Sur­uey first Booke c. 2.But it hath beene the proper­tie of all Heretickes to make no bones of Scripture, but prodigally to spend them, and to lauish them out to proue thereby their heresies, were they neuer so fantasticall. Lib. adu. pr [...] ­fama [...] omnium haeres. nouati [...] ­nes. Vincentius Lyrinensis witnesseth, That Heretickes flie through euery volume of the heauenly Law; and that they dye and colour al­most euerie Page in their Bookes with sentences of the Old and New Testament.

And do not you so too, I pray? Are there not many Pages in many Books of yours, which are di­ed & coloured with sentences of the Old and New Testament? Is not your Canisius Catechisme as full of Texts of the Old and New Testament, as any Heretickes? Is not your Summarie of Controuer­sies, made by W. C. and published, A. 1623. and your [Page 44] Brerely Austins Religion c. 3. sect. 4. [...]. 35. Gagge of the New Gospel, published [...]. 1622. dy­ed with sentences out of Scripture?

Yes: but Heretickes insist vpon Scriptures only, as S. Austine witnesseth; whereas our Bookes are full of other testimonies out of Fathers and Councells.

Yea: but it is not true that Hereticks insi­sted vpon Scripture only; for the most notorious Hereticks that euer were, haue beene as confident that the Fathers were on their side, as you are confi­dent they are on your side. The most notorious He­reticks haue insisted much vpon the Fathers.

m Hist. l. 5. c. 27. The Samosatenians, who denied the Godhead of Christ, bragd, Maiores omnes etiam ipsos Apostolos ea sensisse ac docuisse quae ipsi nunc dicunt seruatamque esse predicationis veritatem vsque ad tempora Victo­ris qui 13. à Petro Romanorum Episcopus fuit. All their predecessours, euen the Apostles themselues thought as they thought, and that the truth of their doctrine continued till Victors time, who was the thirteenth Bishop of Rome after S. Peter.

n Act. 1. To. 2. Conc. p. 21. edit. Binniana. Dioscorus Bishop of Alexandria, who denied the two Natures of Christs cried out in the Councell at Chalcedon, Ego testimonia habeo sanctorum patrum A­thanasij, Gregorij, Cyrilli in multis locis; Ego cum patri­bus eijcior, ego defendo patrum dogmata, non transgre­dior in alique, & horum testimonia non simpliciter ne [...] transitorie, sea in libris habeo. I haue the testimonies of the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Gregories, Cyrils, and that in many places; I am condemned with the Fa­thers; it is I who defend the Fathers opinions, I doe not swerue one Iod from them, I haue their te­stimonies [Page 45] not by hearsay, and at second hand, but in their owne Bookes.

o Epist. ad Rufum. qu [...] ex­tat. apud Bin­n [...]um inter Acta Conc. Ephes. O [...] ­cumen. To. 3. c. 13 p. 780. To. 1. edit. Binniana. The Nestorians, who held many heresies, at the Councell of Ephesus, made this protestation. Nos in sanctorum patrum qui apud Nic [...]nam conuenerant caeterorum (que) qui post illos in Ecclesia claruerunt, Eust a­chij Antiocheni, Basilij Caesariensis, Gregorij, [...]oannis, Athanasij, Theophili, Damasi Romani, Ambrosij Me­diolanensis, reliquorum que qui cum memoratis consen­tiunt doctrina perseuer amus pijsque illorum vestig ijs insistimus: quippe qui Euangel [...]cam Apostolicamque & Propheticam doctrinam plenè assecuti exact am Oxthe­doxae fidei Rogulam nobis tradiderunt: quam doctri­nam & nos inconcussam inflexamque retinere satagi­mus, &c. We maintaine the doctrine which the ho­ly Fathers assembled at Nice, and others who were men of fame in the Church since that time main­tained. Such as Eustac [...]ius of Antioch, Basil of Caesa­rea, Gregory, Iohn, Athanasius, Theophilus, Damasus of Rome, Ambrose of Millain, and the like. Wee tread in their most holy steps, who hauing fully attained to the knowledge of the Gospel, and of the Apostles, and of the Prophets, haue left vs an exact rule to follow, which wee desire also to leaue vnto our po­sterities, &c.

p Synod. [...]at [...] ­ranens. apud Bin. To. 2. Cont. p. 1091. S [...]cretario 4. Certaine Heretickes in a Councell held vnder Martin 1. cried out, Haec pietatis dog mata tradiderunt nobis qui ab initio praesentialiter viderunt, vel Ministri verbi facti sunt, eorum (que) discipuli, & successores, & se­quentes à Deo inspiratae Ecclestae doctores, &c. These religious opinions were deliuered vnto vs, by such as were made Ministers of the Word at the begin­ning, [Page 46] and by their disciples and successors, and since by the Doctors of the Church, who were illumina­ted by God, &c. And this is so plaine that Dial. 6. c. 22. Cope confesseth it in these words: Veteres haeretici cum pa­tres ipsis apertissimè aduer sarentur cos tamen à se stare magna contention [...] clamabant: The ancient Hereticks cried out with open mouth, that the Fathers made for them, though indeed the Fathers were flat a­gainst them. And if Copes acknowledgement will not satisfie you, you may find as much acknowled­ged by Baronius, Annal To. 5. An. 431. Nu. 170.

But what say you to Saint Anstine, whom I alledged as witnessing, That Hereticks insist vpon Scripture only?

I say it is not credible that Saint Austin euer said so, or thought so; for he himselfe witnesseth, That Hereticks haue insisted vpon Visions and Mi­racles, and Successions, and Councells, and Fathers, as well as vpon Scripture. That Heretickes insisted vpon Visions, Saint Austin witnesseth, De vnitate Ecclesiae Cap. 16. That Hereticks haue insisted vpon Miracles, Saint Austin witnesseth, Tract. 13. in Ioh. That they haue insisted vpon Succession, S. Austin witnesseth Epistola 165. And that Maximini [...]s the Arian insisted vpon the Councell at Arminium. That the Donatists insisted vpon S. Cyprian, and other Fa­thers concurring in opinion with him. That Pela­gius insisted vpon Hilary, and Ambrose, and Chryso­stome, and Sixtus Bishop of Rome, and Ierome, and vpon some passages of S. Austin we read in S. Austin. Now except hee would contradict himselfe, how can it bee that hee, who witnesseth these things, [Page 47] should witnesse also, That Hereticks insisted vpon Scripture only?

It seemes by your speech, That Hereticks v­sed all kind of arguments in defence of themselues, and that they insisted vpon Fathers especially. I could wish you durst refer the hearing of the more waighty differences betweene vs vnto the Fathers.

What reason haue you to feare, that I dare not referre the hearing of the more weightie diffe­rences betweene vs vnto the Fathers: it by Fathers you meane the Ancient Fathers, and not your Fa­ther Iesuits?

I feare you dare not make such a reference, because I read in Annal. To. 6. ad [...]n 448 [...] 42.Cardinall Baronius that, Haere­tici nostri temporis sic prouocant ad diuinam scripturam, vt nisi tot syllabis & elementis id ipsum quod profite­tur Ecclesia Catholica in ea expressum inueniunt, mini­mè sibi retinendum esse pertinacissimè reluct antur: nullam vel traditionum, vel sanctorum patrum inter­pretationum rationem pror sus habentes. The Hereticks of this age (he meanes such as you) doe so appeale to Scripture, that except they find therein euen in so many words, whatsoeuer the Catholike Church be [...]eeueth, they vtterly dislike it: making no recko­ning at all of Traditions, or of the expositions of the Fathers.

Your Cardinall is a Cardinall lier. We re­quire no such dunstable plaine proofe out of Scrip­ture for points of Faith, as he lyingly affirmes. Nei­ther doe wee dispise the Fathers: Wee Rainolds C [...] ­fer. with Hart. [...] c. 2. diuis. 2.confesse they were men indued of God with excellent gifts, and brought no small light to the vnderstanding of [Page 48] Scriptures. And much more we say (saying nothing but what we thinke) in their commendation.

Why, but I haue heard (for all your talke) by others, Dowly in his instruction of Christian Relig c. 8. p. 108 That you dispise all the Churches Doctors, and ancient Fathers, That Hil in his Quarterne of Reasons Nu. 10.you make no more account of the Fathers, longer then you can wrest them to serue your turne, then you doe of Beuis of Hampton, or Adam Bel. Yea, I read it Sebastian [...]laseh in proses. Cathol. ratio 10. 7. written of such as you, that, Non alio loco reuera sanctos Patres habent quàm que loco Al­coranum Mahometi, & Esopi fabulas: They make no more account of the holy Fathers, then they doe of the Turks Alkaron, or Esops Fables. And, Brislow Mo­tiue 14.that it is well knowne to such as heare your Sermons, or be in place to heare you talke boldly and familiarly together a­mong your selues, you are not afraid plainly to confesse, That the Fathers all were Papists. And I am sure you know the man, whose words these are: Campian, rat. 5. Kellinsons Suruey l. 1. c. 4. Nu. 6The Prote­stants let not to confesse with Tobith Mathew, That no man can read the Fathers, and beleeue them, and imbrace the New Religion.

I know there are of you Papists, Walsinghams search into Re­ligion. p. 19. i Brislow Motiue 14. who con­fidently auouch, That the old Fathers make against vs in all points: and i that in most matters of Controuersie they are so plainly on your side, that it cannot with any colour bee denied, or called in question. I know there are of you who Fieri non a­gainst Rider, p. 25. write: That in all the Volumes of the Fathers nothing is treated, but what you professe, nothing commended or condemned, but what you commend or condemne; and that we in our consciences know all An­tiquitie to be against vs: Because (as Bishop in his 2. part against M. Perkins Tit. of Repentance. p. 214. they say) in no one point that they can heare of, will any of vs be tried by the iudgement, and consent of Antiquitie. I know the [Page 49] man, & what became of him (he was hangd at A. 1581.Ti­burne for Treason) who first broached that slander on Tobith Mathew, the most reuerend Archbishop of Yorke at this day: who being almost eightie yeeres old, preacheth more Sermons in a yeere, then you can proue haue bin preached by all your Popes since Gregory the great his daies. And I know that that Rat. 5. man vaunted; Ad Patres si quando licebit ac­cedere, confectum est praelium: tàm sunt nostri quàm Gregorius 13. filiorum Ecclesiae Pater amantissimus. If Controuersies of Religion came once to the deci­sion of the Fathers, all would goe on your side: for the Fathers, were as flat for you, as Gregory the thir­teenth, your beloued Pope. Yea, and I know your Lay Apology or Petition of Lay Catholikes. 1604. c. 4. Catholikes in their Petition to his Maiestie, suggested: That for one place of a Father euill vnder­stood, sometimes falsified, sometimes mutilated, and some­times wholly corrupted, brought by vs: they could pro­duce a thousand, not by patches and mammocks, as we do: but whole Pages, whole Chapters, whole Bookes, and the vniforme consent of all the ancient Fathers, and Catho­like Church. Yet I am of Medulla pa­trum in Athana­sion. c. 15. p. 140.Scultetus mind, That D. Whitakers spake nothing but the truth, when in his answere to Campian hee auouched, Patres in maximis iudic ijs toti sunt nostri, in leuioribus varij, in minutissimis vestri. The Fathers in mayne Contro­sies are wholly ours, in the lesser, some ours, some yours, in the least yours, not ours. Yea I am of D. Conference with Hart. c. 8. di [...]is. 6. in fine.Raynolds mind, who protesteth that in his opinion, Not one of all the Fathers was a Papist; espe­cially, considering the very essence of a Papist con­sisteth in opinion of the Popes Supremacie: and [Page 50] the Popes Supremacie is not allowed by any of the Fathers.

r Why, but you will not deny I am sure, That some of your predecessors, as for example Lu­ther, hath spoken scornfully of the Fathers▪ Are not these his words, Nihil curo, &c. I care not if a thousand Austins, a thousand Cyprians, a thousand Churches thinke otherwise then I doe.

Luther perswading himselfe that the Word of God made for him in a controuersie which hee handled, by way of supposall, that Austin and Cypri­an, &c. thought otherwise▪ professeth, that hauing the Word with him, he cared not who they were, not how many they were, who were against him. And do you thinke that therein he spake scornfully of the Fathers? What doe you thinke then of him, who perswading himselfe that some of your Popes made for him, protesteth he would rest more there­on, then vpon thousand Austins, thousand Ieroms, thousand Gregories, Ego vt ingenuè [...]atcor plus vnt summo pontificicrederem in his qui fidci mysteria tan­gunt quā mille Augustinis, Hieronymis, Gregorijs saith your Cornelius Mussus, in his Cap. 14. p. 606. edit. venet. 1588Commentary vpon the Epistle to the Romanes. If it were scornefullnesse in Luther to preferre the Word of God before thousand Austins: doth it not much more argue scornfulnesse in Musse, to prefer an vsurping, most vicious, and vnlettered Pope, before thousand Au­stins? Pious Miran­dula in Quaest. An Papasit su­pra Conc.He was a great Clerke in his time, who deli­uered this as sound doctrine; Simplici potius Rustice, & infanti, & Anicul [...], magis quàm Pontifici maximo, & mille Episcopis credendum est, si isti contra Euangeli­um, [Page 51] illi pro Euangelie faciant. We ought rather be­leeue a plaine country fellow, or a child, or an old wife, then the Pope, and a thousand Bishops: if the Pope and Bishops speake against the Gospel; and the others agreeably to the Gospel. To prefer the Word of God before Bishops, is not to scorne Bi­shops.

Well, shall we then fall to the Fathers, and see what they say?

Nay, stay a little. And tell me first what hope there is that either you should perswade me, or I perswade you, by Fathers: seeing the one of vs cannot perswade the other to be of his opinion by the Scripture: It is Luke 16. 31written, That they who heare not Moses, and the Prophets, will not bee perswaded though one rise from the dead againe. Which makes me feare, that seeing Moses and the Prophets, alledged by me, cannot perswade you, nor the Texts which you alledge out of the same cannot perswade me, we shall lose both our labours in examining what the Fathers haue said about the differences betweene vs: For if men who heare not Moses and the Pro­phets, will not be perswaded by the dead miracu­lously raised; I cannot thinke they will euer be per­swaded by the Fathers.

Say you so?

Yea truly: and I am the more afraid we shall lose our labours in this kind; because there is as great question betweene vs, about the Fathers, as about the Scriptures: what the meaning of the Fa­thers is, as vvhat the meaning of the Scriptures is. On vvhose side St. Austin, and St. Ambrose stands, [Page 52] as on whose side St. Paul, and St. Peter stands. The Fathers Writings are subiect to mistakings as vvell as the Scriptures. Arbitror nonnulles in qui­busdamlocis libr [...]rum meorum opinaturos me sensisse, quod non sensi, aut non sensisse quod sensi: I suppose (saith Lib. 1. de Tri­nitate 6. 3. prope sinem.St. Austin) that many by reason of some passages in my Bookes, will conceiue that my mea­ning is otherwise then it was: or that it vvas not such as it was. And it fell out accordingly. For as Aunal. To. 6. ad An. 450. n. 17 Baronius witnesseth, after St. Austins death, there arose vp diuers, Qui ex eius scriptis male perceptis complures inuexerunt errores, quos S. Aug. nomine & authoritate defendere conabantur. Who mistaking his meaning, broached many errors in his name. Now I doubt not, but you thinke other Fathers Writings are as subiect to mistakings as St. Austins.

That I doe: Yet proue this point (I pray) a little more fully.

I will; and that by examples of ancienter, and later times. In ancient times one Father mi­stooke the meaning of another. At this time, euen one of you conceiues differently of the meaning of the Fathers, from others of you: some saying, This is the meaning: others saying, not so; but this is the meaning.

What ancient Father mistooke his fellowes meaning?

St. Austin mistooke St. Cyprians: for St. Austin thought St. Cyprian had beene of opinion, that Hereticks were within the Church: which (as your men say) St. Cyprian did not.

Indeed, I thinke St. Austin mistooke St. Cy­prian [Page 53] foulely: for I read in Lib. 3. de Ec­cle [...]a c. 4. Bellarmine, that, Cy­priani verba nihil tale sonant. S. Cyprians words founded nothing that way. And in Loc. com. l. 4. c. 2. fol. 118 a. Canus, Ego, vt quemadmodum sentio loquar, non intelligo quid caus [...] Augustimo fuerit, vt verba Cypriani in eum sensū acce­perit, qui mihi sanè tam apparet à Cypriani mente alie­nus, quam Coelum a terrae natura altenum est▪ sed ali­quando bonus dormitat Homerus. If I may speake my mind freely; I wonder why S. Austin tooke S. Cy­prians words in that meaning; from which they are as are farre as heauen from earth: but the greatest Clerkes may now and then be taken napping. But what other mistaking doe you read of in old time? One swallow makes not summer.

Iulianus Bishop of Capna, of quick wit, and good vnderstanding in the Scriptures, as De viris Illu­stribus To. 4. [...] ­perum Hi [...]ron. Genna­dius witnesseth, conceiued that Chrysostome did not beleeue Originall sinne was deriued from the fa­thers vnto the children. Yet See Sixt. Se­nens. l. 6. Ann [...]s. 236.S. Austin was of an­other mind: S. Austin thought Iulian was deceiued: Iulian mistooke the meaning of S. Chrysostome.

Synod. Paris. impress. An. 1596. p. 155. About the yeere 824. there was a great que­stion, Whether Images might be worshipped. The Bishops of France in a meeting at Paris, collected diuers testimonies out of Gregory Nyssen, Basil, Chry­sostome, Cyril, Athanasius, Ambrose, Epiphanius, and Stephen Bostron, as they call him, to proue Images might not be worshipped: yet I pist. 1. To. 3. Conc. edit. Bin. p. 256. Hadrian alledgeth the same testimonies, out of the same Fathers, to proue the contrary. viz. That Images might bee worshipped.

May I beleeue you that this is true?

Yea: for Bellarmine grants it to be true. Plurima testimonia quae summus Pontifex Hadrianus in Epistola illa sua doctissima pro Imaginibus posuit isti rursum allegant qui contra Imagines pugnant. The many testimonies alledged by Pope Hadrian, in that his learned Epistle in defence of Images: these Bishops (hee meanes the Bishops which met at Paris) alledge them to disproue Images, Append. ad lib. de cultu Imag. c. 4. saith Bellarmine.

What instances can you giue me to make it plaine, that learned Catholikes differ about the meaning of the Fathers: for I thought the Fathers had written so plainly, that any man might easily haue conceiued their meaning, and that all (Ca­tholikes especially) had vnderstood them alike.

I could load you with instances of your learned Romanists differences about the meaning of the Fathers: but I will giue you only a few, yet such as I thinke verie remarkable. It is a great questi­on among yourselues, Whether the Virgin Mary vvas conceiued in sinne, or no: Lib. 4. de A­ [...]iss. grattae. &c. [...]. 15.some affirming, some denying. Bellarmine is one of them who de­nies that she was conceiued in sin: and for proofe of his opiniō, he alledgeth Ambrose Ser. 22. in Ps. 118. Yet To. 2. in 3 par. Tho. q. 27. dis­put. 117. c. 3. nu▪ 36, &c. Vasquez disputing the question, tho he be of Bellarmines opinion in the maine, professeth: he durst not cite that place of Ambrose, vvhich Bellar­mine doth for that purpose. Mitto ex Latinis testi­monium Ambrosij, quamuis istud non nulli praeclarum existiment. Mihi enim verba ipsius aliud omnino sonare videntur, &c. I passe ouer the testimony of S. Am­brose, saith he, tho some account of it highly, be­cause [Page] in my opinion his words carry quite another meaning. That which Bellarmine thought S. Am­brose ment, Vasquez thought he did not meane. The same Loc [...]itat [...]. Bellarmine, in prosecuting the same contro­uersie, alledgeth Anselme, Lib. de concepta virginali & peccato Originali, Cap. 18. Yet Lib. de B. Virg. Conception [...]. Petrus de Vincentia alledgeth the same words out of the same place vn­to the contrary. Bellarmine thought the Virgin Maries immaculate conception to be proued by Anselme. Petrus de Vincentia thought that the Vir­gin Maries conception in sinne was proued by An­selme. [...]o [...]o citat [...]. m [...]b. supra [...]t. Bellarmine in the same case alledgeth Au­stin, and Ierome, as being of his opinion: m Petrus de Vi [...]centia alledgeth the same Fathers, as being of a contrary opinion. Hildephonsus lib. de virginita [...] B. Mariae, is alledged by Petrus de Vincentia, for the Virgins conception in sinne: and yet Ibid.he confes­seth, that Hildephonsus is alledged by a contrary faction, to proue her freedome from sinne. May not this serue for one instance, to proue that your learned Catholikes differ about the vnderstanding of the Fathers?

What is your next?

It is a great Question (as you know) be­tweene vs, and you, Whether Matrimony be a Sa­crament in proper sense? You say it is so. We say, it is not so. For the proofe of your, it is so. Lib. 1. de Mae­trimon▪ c. 3. Bel­larmine alledgeth Leo 1. in his ninetie two Epistle; and Chrysostome in his twenty Homily vpon the Ephesians; and Ambrose vpon the fift to the Eph. and a number of places out of S. Austin. Whereby it is plaine, (except he write against his owne con­science) [Page 56] that he conceiued these Fathers held opini­on, Matromony was a Sacrament in proper sense: Yet your To 4. in 3. par, The. disput. 2. [...]. 4 Nu. 22. 23. Vasquez thinks they did not: for hand­ling that point, Mitto▪testimonia Leonis Papae 1. in E­pistola 90. aliàs 92. Cap. 4. Chrysostomum Hom. 20. in Epist. ad Eph. & Authorem Comment. in Paulum apud Ambrosium in illud Eph. 5. Sacramentum h [...]c, &c. qui Matrimonimm Sacramentum seu mysterium appellant: e [...] quod non loquuntur ipside sacramento propriè, qualia sunt 7. quae in Ecclesia sunt à Christo instituta, &c. sed de Sacramento latiori significatione, pro ut est myste­rium & signum coniunctionis Christi cum Ecclesia de qua nunc non disputamus. In quo etiam sensu existimo Aug. ubique Matrimonium Sacramentum appellâsse. I doe not vrge Leo 1. in his 92. Epistle: nor Chry­sostomes 20▪ Homily vpon the Ephesians, nor the Au­thor of the Commentaries which goe vnder Am­brose his name vpon the Ephesians: tho they call Ma­trimony a Sacrament: because they speake not of a Sacrament in proper sense, such as are those seuen which Christ ordained in his Church: but of a Sa­crament in a larger sense, as it is a mystery, or a signe of the vnion that is between Christ and his Church, of which kind of Sacrament we speake not now. In which kind of meaning I thinke S. Austin continu­ally called Matrimony a Sacrament, saith Vasquez. And in the Cap. 5. de Ma­trimon. Sacr. n. 30Chapter following, treating vpon the same Argument: Postquam singula loca Aug. per­legi & attentè considerani, An. 1588. manifesse depre­hendi cum non loqui de Sacramento propriè, pro vt in praesenti loquimur: sed de sacramento latior [...] significati­onepro vt est signum vnionis Christi cum Ecclesia, ac [Page 57] proiude indi [...] authoritate ipsi [...] in has part [...] [...]ra haretic [...]s v [...] non debere. After that, in the yeere 1588. I did diligently read & considered of the places in S. Austin, I found it very apparant, that when he cal­led Matrimony a Sacrament, he spake not of a Sa­crament in proper sense, but in larger signification▪ and therefore I thought it not fit to alledge Austins authoritie against the Hereticks in this Controuer­sie, saith the same man. May not this serue for an­other instance to proue that your learned Catho­likes differ about the vnderstanding of the Fathers?

What is your third instance?

It is See [...]ll [...]r. l. 3. [...] c. 3.questioned partly betweene vs, and you: partly among your selues, what kind of cer­taintie a man may haue of his saluation: some say­ing, That faithfull men may attaine to such know­ledge of their saluation, that they may rest assured of the forgiuenesse of their sinnes: other saying, not so, except it be by speciall reuelation. Of the former opinion is [...] Catharinus, of the later L [...]it. c. 7. & 10 Bellarmine. Both of them alledge the selfe same Fathers, Greek, and Latine, for the proofe of their seuerall opini­ons, which argues they conceiued differently of the Fathers meaning. In like manner it is questioned betweene vs and you, Whether the words of Saine Peter, 1 Epist. 3. 19. are to be vnderstood of Christs discension into hell in soule after his death. And your Anno [...]. in [...] P [...]. 3. 19.Rhemists would perswade vs, That S. Au­stine found himselfe sure that so much was plainly proued therby: yet Lib. 4. de Christ [...] c. 13. Bellarmine confesseth; Non vult Aug. h [...]c locu [...] ad Infer [...]s pertiner [...]: That S. Austin did not thinke Christs discension into hell was pro­ued thereby.

[Page 58] A great question it is euen See Bell▪ l▪ 1. de Euth [...]i [...]. c. 5.amongst your selues, Whether the words of Christ, Ioh. Chap. 6. be to be vnderstood properly of the Sac [...]ament, or no: Caie­tan, Iansenius, Hessels, Tapperus, and some others, hold negatiuely: Roffensis, Bell. Maldonate, &c. hold affirmatiuely. Now, Caietan proues his Negatiue, ijs dem modis quibus Roffensis stabiliuit contrarium sen­tentiam authoritate sanctorum & pracipue B. Aug. By the same Arguments that Roffensis proued his affirmatiue, euen by the testimony of the Fathers, especially of S. Austin, as Artu. 15. Tapperus witnesseth.

Grauisitina at­que exa [...]hsima illustrissimorum to [...] Italia & Gallia Acade­mia, cum Censu­ra, &c. Printed at London 1530 In King Henry the Eighth dayes, there was a great controuersie among your selues, Vtrum ducere relictam [...] mortui sine liberis it a sit de iure diuine & naturali prohibitū: vt nullus po [...]ti [...]ex super hu­i [...]snoodi m [...]trimonij contract is sine contrahen [...]is dispen­sare posset. And the most famous Vniuersities in France and Italy, grounding themselues vpon the Scriptures, and Fathers, were of opinion, That mar­rying of the brothers wife was so forbidden, that no dispensation could make it lawfull. And to that purpose some learned man made a booke. Now the Fathers, whereon the Vniuersities, and the Au­thor of the booke rested were Origen, Chrysostome, Basil, Hierom, Augustin, Greg. &c. Yet Bellarmine, and the Author of the booke, intituled, Apologia Tumultuaria▪ &c. alledge the same Fathers to the contrary. I did not thinke the Fathers words had beene so subiect to different constructions. But I must put off the further dispute about the Fathers, till our next meeting, which shalbe (God willing) erre long, while, God be with you, onely remem­ber▪ [Page 59] I pray you, that which is written: 1. Tim. 6. 3. 4. and 5. verses, If any man teach otherwise, and consenteth not to the wholesome words of our Lord Iesus Christ, and to the doctrine, which is according to godli­nesse. He is puft vp and knoweth nothing, but doteth about questions and strife of wordes, whereof commeth enuie strife, railings, euil surmisings, Froward dispu­tations of men of corrupt mindes and destitute of the truth, which thinke that gaine is godlines: from such separate thy selfe.