The Answere to the Title.

THE departure out of the Church is rightly called the badge of an here­tike, to whom in his going out the Goates do flie for succour, when the sheepe of Christ do seeke their foode in the Church of Christ. But because it is a lesser burthen to beare the marke, then to haue the name of an heretike, it falleth out that men in all ages when they for­sake [Page 2] the fellowshippe of the saintes of GOD, they doe professe a betaking themselues vnto the true Church of God.

Heerevppon it commeth that such as haue beene nourished with the milke of discontentment, strengthened with the spirite of vnquietnesse, and cloa­thed with the profession of a godlie conscience, do now trouble and molest vs, refuse to continue with vs, and make a nullitie of our Church. Their eyes (they say) are now opened, who liued vntill nowe in blindnesse, they haue found out the true Church, whereof they labour to be members: in seeking our good, they publish and set sorth vn­to vs a true description thereof; and this shall bee confirmed out of the word of God.

This their knowledge, their loue, and their faithfull dealings, are warranted vnto vs in the Title of this their treatise, which matters if we can finde therein, we will acquite them from schisme and [Page 3] heresie: but if the discourse be not an­swerable vnto the Title, they must re­turne vnto vs, or else wee must ac­knowledge them to be, not as they pre­tend, but as they are.

The answere.

In this first sentence which heere is sette dovvne, wee are giuen to vn­derstande, what there is to bee hoped for in that which followeth, both for the matter and also for the manner of hand­ling the matter, if wee do but regarde the ende and scope thereof, being al­togither [Page 4] false, yet packed vp with euident truthes, that the certaintie of these might free the other of suspition. The manner of dealing is to pester the margent with a cloud of witnesses to smal purpose, onely they make the ignorant beleeue, that he which gain-saith this booke, doth speake against the word of God. But how vainly this is done, it will appeare by the exami­nation of the particulars. Seeing the na­ture and gouernment of the church (say they) is like vnto the Lord thereof, it must be granted, that as God is euer one and the same: so is his church which professeth one truth, holdeth one faith, and is guided by that order which God hath reuealed in his word. Our answere is, that we do acknowledge one God the father, sonne, & holy ghost, his truth our faith, and the meanes of our saluation to be vnchangeable; we confesse likewise one catholike church, which is the com­munion of saints, which iointly and seue­rally do confesse that saluation is obtai­ned in and through Iesus Christ alone. [Page 5] This church comprehendeth in it both angels and men, Col. 1. 18. 19. 20. the one sort continuing in, the other sort restored vnto that e­state wherein they stand; and all obtai­ning this sentence of being perfitly righ­teous, in and thorough the head of that church, whereof they are members, euen Iesus Christ our Lord. This is the church which they say must be guided by one rule, euen the word of the most high. Now we desire to know in what sence the word of the most high is taken; for if they meane thereby the prouidence of God, in which sence it is sometimes taken, as Deut. 8. 3. & Heb. 1. 3. we do agree in this clause al­so. But the places quoted in the margent, do shew that it is meant of the reuealed will of God contained in his word; For Deut. 6. 25. Moses telleth the Israelites that the obseruing of all the commande­ments of the Lord their God, wil be their righteousnes. Paul Rom. 10. 8. saith, that the worde of God was in their mouth, & in their hart euen the word of faith which vvas preached. Againe 2. Tim. 3. 15. hee [Page 6] sheweth Timothie that the scriptures are able to make him wise vnto saluati­on, thorough the faith that is in Christ Iesus. Christ in the eight Chapter of Iohn and the one and fiftith verse, affir­meth that if a man keepe his vvorde, he shall neuer see death. Lastly Iohn saith, 1. Iohn. 2. 3. By this vve knovv that vve know him, if we keepe his comman­dements. It is euident that these places do speake of the word of God, which is giuen vnto vs to be our guide in this life, for the gathering togither of the saints during their abode in this world: but when life ceaseth, the vse of this word of God doth cease in the Church of God, as appeareth in the first to the Corinthians the thirteenth chapter and eight verse, Colossians the first chapter and the three and twentith verse, &c. Therefore to say that the whole church, that is, both angels in heauen, the faith­full departed out of this life, and the god­ly remaining vpon the earth are all alike gouerned by this rule, doth bewray ei­ther [Page 7] a foule ignorance, or a foolish rash­nesse. VVhich rash ignorance if in this one matter it had shewed it selfe onely, it had bene more tollerable, then it can be when it alledgeth manie scriptures to prooue the truth, so vnseasonablie as here it doth about the vnitie of the God­head &c. For the two first places, the first chapter of Genisis and the first verse, So they speake in the trea­tise of the church ap­parant. the twentith Chapter of Exodus and the third verse, do mention God in re­gard of his soueraigntie ouer all things, but they speake of him as the inheritour of mount Sion his Church: wherefore that of saint Paul in the first to Timothie, the second chapter and fourth verse, might haue bene sufficient both for the proofe of this, and also that there is but one truth, one faith, &c: Vnto the know­ledge whereof it is the will of God that men should come and be saued. In a pam­phlet, the question being of the best prea­chers in England▪ (By the way obserue that this place of Paul doth crosse that negatiue of theirs, We de­nie, say they, that you are able to iustifie that faith which they beget: their reason is, [Page 8] because our worshipping of God is not ioyned with their discipline, for we hold that faith which Paul approueth.) As for the testimonie which Paul giueth of Epa­phroditus, Phil. 2. 25. that he is his brother, companion in labor, and fellow souldier, It is a weake proofe of that whereunto it is referred, so is that of the Iewes, Iohn. 8. 41 saying that they haue all one father, euen God, which Christ denyeth vnto them in the verse next following. These things are spoken, not to call that into question which in it selfe is true, but to shew what discretion hath bene vsed in the choise, and alledg­ing these scriptures. But we will go for­ward.

The answere.

Most certaine it is that the inuisible Church of God extendeth it selfe vnto all the beloued of God, that haue bene, are or shall be, men and Angells, beeing [Page 9] complete in him who is the head of all principalities and powers, to wit, Iesus Christ. VVe do agree herein, yet it hath his warrant, such as it is, for it is here pro­ued by the couenant made with Abra­ham, Gen. 17. and by the vision of Iohn, Reuel. 7. 9. VVhich places do not proue the matter, in as much as they speake of the restoring and preseruation of man onely, and not of the whole bodie of the church. The other three places alledged are lesse to purpose. Peter 1. Pet. 1. 2. writeth vnto the church, which was scat­tered ouer the face of the earth; so that he speaketh not of the vniuersall church of God, but of that which was in his age. Paul saith, 1. Cor. 10. 3. that the fathers did eate one spirituall meat: But they were not the vniuersall church of God, he spea­keth only of those that were before him. Christ prayeth for his Apostles, Ioh. 17. 20. and not for them onely, but for those which should beleeue in him thorough their pearching: he prayeth not for the vniuersall church, viz. all that haue bene, [Page 10] are, or shalbe, but for those which being aliue, should inioy the ministery of his Apostles. But it may be the authors mea­ning is not out of euery of these seueral­ly, but from them al ioyntly to conclude this vniuersal church, for as much as Paul speaketh of those which haue bene, Pe­ter speaketh of those that are, and Christ mentioneth those that shalbe. VVhich though we should grant, yet they all mention but mankind onely, and there­of not all the elect of God: for the in­fants which are vnder the couenant, and departing this life before they are capa­ble of the ministerie of the word, are not comprehended within the number of those which Christ in that place prayed for, Peter did write vnto, &c. so that these places iointly taken, do not conteine so much of the vniuersall church as the two first places: & though they did, yet they do not comprehend the whole as hath bene said. Thus a good dish may be mar­red by an vnskilfull cooke, and a good matter spoiled by an vnlearned clearke.

Answere.

Leauing the inuisible church of God, we are to keep in remembrance, that this discourse is of the visible church, as it is seene in this world: and it setteth be­fore our eyes the matter whereof it is framed; the glory wherewith it is crow­ned, the discipline whereby it is gouer­ned, and the estate which it enioyeth, euen in this life. All which matters are here set downe so necessarie vnto the esse or being of the church, that the want of these or of anie of these, presentlie causeth a nullitie thereof: but how sub­stantiallie these matters are prooued, [Page 12] the particulars shall make manifest. The matter whereof this church is framed, Treatise of the church apparant. is a companie of people which is faithfull, &c. The Authors meaning is expressed more plainely in the arguments vsed against the church of England, Argument. 6. The church of Christ is sanctified and made glori­ous, without spot or wrincle, or grosse polluti­on. Againe, Argument. 8. The people shalbe all righteous. Againe, One wicked man disa­nulleth the couenant vnto all. And in the latter end of this booke it is concluded, that in this visible church is no vncleane per­son. Gen. 4. 1. But was not the house of Adam the visible church of God, and Cain a mem­ber of it? he was vnfaithfull. Was not the Arke of Noah the visible church of God, Gen. 7. 7. and Cham preserued in it? he was vnfaithfull. Gen. 17. 23. VVas not Ismael being cir­cumcised in Abrahams house of the visi­ble church? Gen. 25. 1. Reg. 16. 29. 30. he was vnfaithfull. VVas not Esau in the family of Isaac, Achab in his raigne ouer Israel, Matth. 10. 4 and Iudas Ischariot of the visible church? all these were vn­faithfull. In the visible church of God [Page 13] there will be tares, yea vntill the haruest: chaffe among the wheat, Matth. 13. 30. & 3. 12. & 25. 32. goates among the sheepe, hypocrites among the true professors: nay to go further, Antichrist for a time sitting in the temple of God, and other monstrous men abiding in the church, 2. Thess. 2. 4. Iudg. 4. Treatise of the church apparant. turning the grace of God into wantonnesse. But they do confesse that there may be pollutions in the manners of men being secret, which they leaue vnto God: but if they be such spots and wrinkles, as declare the church not to be glorious, then no apparant church. VVhat spots they can finde grea­ter than those before mentioned I know not: yet this I adde, that the church at Ierusalem was not greatly glorious in the dayes of Herods tyrannie, when also the office of the high Priest was diuided to two: Nor from the dayes of Malachy vntill the comming of Christ, during all which time there was a deepe silence of the word. Nor in the captiuitie of Baby­lon, as appeareth by the prophesie of Zacharie. Zach. 3. & 5. Esa. 1. 6. Nor in the daies of Hussia, Io­than, Achaz, and Hezechia, when Esay [Page 14] complained that there was no whole part from the sole of the foote to the head, but wounds & swellings, and sores full of corruption. Nor in the time of Dauid, 2. Sam. 13. when the incest of one of his sonnes, 2. Sam. 15. the traiterous attempts of ano­ther, 2. Sam. 11. yea the sinnes committed by Da­uid himself were most abhominable. And yet I hope the Author will acknowledge these to haue bene the apparant church of God, euen in the midst of grosse pol­lutions. Therefore it is not necessary for the esse or being of the church apparant, that euerie member therof be faithfull, &c. How is this therefore proued? here is quoted Psal. 111. 1. I will praise the Lord with my whole heart in the secret meetings of the iust, and in their congregation, that is, both publikely and priuatly, wheresoe­uer the iust do meete. Also Psal. 149. 1. where he calleth the said meetings, the congregation of the godly. But in these pla­ces Dauid neither saith, that it is vnpos­sible for a wicked man to ioyne with the faithfull in outward dueties; nor yet [Page 15] that the presence of the vngodly mā can cause the assembly not to be the congre­gation of the iust or godly, which is the matter that should haue bin concluded. Now wheras the church is called an ho­ly people, Esa. 62. 12. & Deut. 14. 2. it is in regard that they were the seed of him, with whom the couenant was made: Rom. 9. 4, &c. but howsoeuer in respect hereof the adopti­on pertained to them, & the glory, & the couenant, & the giuing of the Law & the seruice of God, & the promises, of whom are the fathers, and of whom concerning the flesh Christ came, and therfore were called an holy people: yet neither are all they Israel that are of Israel, vers. 6. neither yet is the true Israel cleane vntil the fountaine be opened to wash away their filthinesse: zacha. 13. 1. as for the church of Ephesus, Eph. 1. 1. & of Corinth, Cor. 1. 2. they are indeed called saints: but can we truly say that there was no pollution knowne among them? the matter is plain, that euē at that instant, as appeareth by both the Epistles, al things were not so well in these churches as [Page 16] were to be wished. Therefore, notwith­standing these churches are called saints, Israel holy, and the assemblie of such as worship God, a congregation of the iust: yet there may be a visible church of God though some member thereof be not faithfull. This people, saith our Author, must be also holy: for proofe whereof is brought Deut. 12. 5. where the peo­ple are commanded to worship in the place which the Lord should choose. But I pray you, when some of them o­beyed not, [...]. Reg. 12. 28. & 1. Reg. 16▪ 32. as Ieroboam, who caused the people to worship in Bethel and Dan: Achab, 2. Chro. 33. who worshipped in the house of Baal, Manasses, and others, did the peo­ple of God cease to be the church of God? in no wise. VVe grant that Gods ordinances ought to be regarded, espe­cially in matters concerning his wor­ship: but this is not the matter in que­stion; but whether the breaking of them by some one man, can make the people of God to be no people vnto him? for this is it, that should haue bene conclu­ded. [Page 17] Next to this is alledged Iohn. 6. 37. which place, that it may the better be vn­derstood, we are to remember, that in the verse immediatly going before, Christ had said, Ye haue seene me and beleeue not: the he addeth, All that my father gi­ueth me, shall come vnto me: whereby he sheweth that the gift of faith is the free election of the father in Christ: so that faith is a certaine testimonie of election to the faithfull. The argument standeth thus. No man can come vnto Christ and beleeue in him, except it be giuen him of the father: therefore euerie member of the visible church is holy. In a treatise which they haue scatte­red abroad. Surely it is no maruell that the knowledge of the libe­ral sciences is condemned as an exercise of curious arts; but if they knew these Arts, no doubt they would be ashamed to abuse themselues & others with such sencelesse kinde of reasoning. Besides, what meaneth this, that to prooue the people of God faithfull, are alledged scriptures that speake of holines? as Esa. 62. 12. & Deut. 14. 2. And now to proue [Page 18] their holinesse, faith is mentioned? If faith and holinesse be all one, why are they noted as diuers with ^e & ^f? if they be not all one, why is the handling of them thus confounded? in one of these must be acknowledged a foule ouersight. Then followeth to proue the holinesse of the church aforesaid, Iohn. 3. 14. & 12. 32. both which places doe shew, that Christ will draw his elect vnto him: the first doth shew the meanes whereby this shalbe done, namely, by the ministerie of his word, which is signified by his lif­ting vp; the other place noting the time, viz. after his death. Now this is the force of this argument: Christ bringeth men to beleeue in him, therefore euery mem­ber of the visible church is holie. I neede not stay in shewing how well this proofe is made; we wil come to the last place for this matter cited, which is that of Christ, Luk. 17. 3. Looke to your selues, and so pro­ceedeth in shewing how reprehensions are to be vsed; I cannot perceiue what moued the Author to alledge this place [Page 19] which pertaineth not to the matter; ex­cept it were to make a shew in the mar­gent amongst his other friuolous & vain quotacions. To proceede, This faithfull and holy people is gathered in the name of Christ Iesus, their onely king, priest, and pro­phet, &c. That Christ Iesus is our onely king, priest, and prophet, and that the ser­uants of God in all their assemblies, both publike and priuate, do meete in his name, is confessed: but the manner of dealing with the scripture, is not here greatly to be commended. For how is the kingdome of Christ prooued? for it is cited, Gen. 44. and the tenth verse, where Ioseph speaking to his brethren of the cuppe, saith thus. Now then, let it be according to your words, he with whom it is found shall be my seruant, and yee shall be blamelesse. Truely, if a written coppie of this treatise, being more ancient then the printed booke had not come vnto my handes, wherein I see the same place quoted, I should haue laide this fault vppon the Printer, for I should neuer [Page 20] haue suspected a church builder to haue bene such a sencelesse prophaner of the word of God. The other testimonies, viz. Psal. 45. 6. Zac. 9. 9. Heb. 1. 8. are more plaine. So for his priesthood, the making intercession for his, Rom. 8. 34. & Ioh. 17. which is a part of that function; and Heb. 5. 9. & 8. 1. & 4. 14. speaking of the whole office, are to be accepted. Now to come to his propheticall function, for which is alledged Deut. 18. 15. which is not to be restrained vnto Christ; for it promiseth vnto the church a continuall succession of teachers in all ages. It is more to pur­pose, which is alledged out of Matth. 17. 5. & Heb. 1. 1. but as touching Gen. 14. 18. though it speaketh of Melchisedek, who was king of Salem, and a Priest, and was a figure of Christ, Heb. 7. 1. yet the place that is quoted hath small force in it selfe, to proue that, for the which it is brought. In his pam­phlet a­gainst read prayers, and Treatise of the church apparant.

This church also worshippeth him aright; that is, neither in a set forme of praier, nor yet in that place where discipline is not [Page 21] established; for we gather the Authors minde out of his owne writings. So that he alloweth that for true wor­ship, which is by the direction of Gods spirit, our onely helpe, and vnder the established gouernement of Pastors, &c. Indeed, Iohn. 4. God is a spirite, and is to be worshipped in spirite and truth, which cannot be done without his direction: yet are there certaine outward helpes which God hath sanctified for the furthe­ring of the weake, in their special seruing of God, as reading, &c. And if true wor­ship cannot be performed without this gouernment, then may not we iustifie, e­uen their owne seruing of God, for they thēselues do want this discipline. Three places of scripture are here abused, Exod. 20. 7. Leuit. 10. 5. Exo. 20. 7. 8. Leuit. 10. 5. Ioh. 4. 23. for not one of them condemneth read prayers in any mā, much lesse whol churches, either for them, or for want of this discipline. True it is, that the name of God must not be a­bused, neither must his worship be pro­phaned, as is euident to be seene in Na­dab [Page 22] and Abihu, who for their strange fire were consumed of the Lord; not that he regardeth so much a cole of fire, only he warneth men to take heede, that they worship God according to his owne ap­pointment. But to the matter. Did the sin of Nadab and Abihu cause Moses & his people to be no church vnto God? we may not so thinke. The offenders recei­ued iust recompence for their sin, the rest continued the seruants & worshippers of God. These proofs therfore faile in these points: First they proue not that the false worship of one maketh a nullity before God of the whole cōgregation, but shew the contrarie; secondly, they proue not a set forme of praier to be a taking of Gods name in vaine, a prophanation of the sa­baoth, or a carnal worship: but we say that this kind of worship is vnlike to that of Nadab & Abihu, because it is warranted in the word of God, wherin I wil not vrge Nu. 6. 23. or Matth. 6. 9. which hauing bin aledged heretofore, are turned aside with expounding the Hebrue coh, & the greek [Page 23] houtos, after this manner, or thus: as if the place in Numery were the sum of al bles­sings, & the other in Matth. were only gi­uē for a direction in our praiers; the vani­ty of which cauil, togither with the whole discourse hereof, I leaue to him who hath alredy dealt with this matter: & yet in the meane season, we may note that the 102. Ps. was not giuen for a patterne of prayer, but to be vsed for a prayer, as appeareth by the title therof. Tepillah legnanei kiiagne toph beliphne Iehouah jishpek shicho. A praier for the poore when he is distressed, pow­ring out his meditation before the Lord. Also Psa. 9. Mizmor shir leiom hashabath; A Psalme & song for the sabaoth day. So that as the former was a set praier for the afflicted, so this latter was a thanksgiuing for the blessings of God, & both of them vsed in his holy worship. Of the like sort are Psal. 42. 44. 22. 80. 39. and many other Psalmes which were not helpes onely to meditation, but set praiers in the church of God. Thirdly, these places proue not the want of this discipline to make a false [Page 24] worship, but we say that God cannot be truly serued, where the discipline descri­bed in this treatise is established, which shall appeare by that which followeth. Being peaceably gouerned by his officers and lawes. The Author expresseth what his meaning is, in the other part of this booke: for he describeth these officers and these lawes, what they are: Concer­ning all which, this I say in generall, that here is nothing but palpable ignorance to be found, for first these gouerning of­ficers, Officers. pastors, doctors, Elders, Deacons and relieuers, being fiue in number, are so necessarily required, that the want of these or any of these in a congregation, causeth it to be no Church apparant. A­gainst the which assertion, for to make their madnes more manifest, we do here by the way of supposition grant vnto thē, that there are such functions, & yet these exceptions may be taken: first, if the au­thor hath described the relieuer and the Deacon faithfully, then are they no go­uerning officers, but seruants vnto the [Page 25] church. Secondly, that the want of Elders taketh not away the esse or being of the church, considering that Christ and his disciples which ioined with him were the apparant church, and yet during the time of his humiliation these officers were not erected. And when many reuolted, as is to be seene Iohn. 6. Christ asking the twelue if they also would go away, Pe­ter answered in the name of the rest, Ma­ster to whom shall we go, thou hast the words of eternal life? so that Peter accounteth the word a sufficient warrant for his continu­ing with Christ, howsoeuer these men though they confesse that the worde of God is to be heard, yet denie the hearing of it at their mouthes, which haue not ordained Elders among them. But this may seeme no sufficient proofe, which is taken from Christ and his disci­ples, forasmuch as this discipline was not then commanded, I answere, that if there were a time when the church of Christ was without this gouernment, and foras­much as it receiued not the gouernment [Page 26] of the Iewes, it is not a perpetuall rule, that outward gouernment should be the life of the Church, but I will not holde them in this straight: they aske where we can finde a church without this gouerne­ment, after that Christ had sent his spirite vpon the disciples. I answere, that as Ti­mothie was left at Ephesus, so was Titus in Crete, I meane in the house of God, which is the church of the liuing God. And yet at that time Elders were not appointed in that church before Titus had ordained them, not to speake of the church of Ieru­salem, which made choise of Deacons, but not of Elders. Also it is plaine that the Elders which were appointed in the churches by the Apostles, were for the most part such as dealt in the worde, and not in gouerment onely, as heereafter shall be made more manifest in his due place. Thirdly, that the Doctor is not ne­cessary in euery congregation, nor yet to execute his office in the publike assem­blies. For wheras they themselues affirme that the word & sacramentes must go to­gether, [Page 27] for which they alledge that saying of Christ, Math. 28. 19. Go preach, haptising: by which saying wee are drawen to the mislike of vn­preaching ministers: so by the same wee may conclude against an vnministering Doctorship, the worde and Sacraments, the mysteries of God are not to be diuor­ced, yet do we acknowledge the office of a Doctor, a distinct matter frō the pastors function, who is to feed his sheep with the mysteries of God, both worde and Sacra­ments in the assēblies, which are for Gods worship; the Doctor attending vpon his dutie in a place by the church appointed, instructing men in the true sense of the scriptures, whereby the church may haue able men alwaies in readines, to supplie such romes as shalbee void in the church by death or otherwise, Pastor in ecclesijs, Doctor in scholis. In annota. Bez. Eph. 4. Lastly, I saie, that though it were grāted, that this platform drawen out in this treatise, were warranted by the word, yet cānot they ascribe to it an abili­tie to make the church of God perfect therby in this life, for thē shuld that praier [Page 28] be needlesse, Matth. 6. 12. forgiue vs our sinnes. Nei­ther will they say, that these offices can at al times be had, especially when there are not men sufficiently qualified for them: for they confesse that Gods ordi­nances are not to be prophaned, and to haue no Elders is better then to haue ignorant and insufficient Elders, and in this respect do they cleare the church in the dayes of Christs humiliation, and ac­quit it from sinne in the want of this esta­blished gouernement; nor yet will they grant, that if there were men meete for these offices, that yet they should be set in these roomes before the church doth elect them, In this trea­tise. for here is no intrusion, &c. So that the most that by their owne doctrine is to be yeelded vnto, is this; that when men are able, in respect of their gifts, to vndertake this burthen, if it be thought a matter expedient by euery member of the church, then is this gouernement ne­cessary, In the trea­tise of the apparant church but this is farre wide from that conclusion which is made against the church of England, that it should not be a [Page 29] church, bicause it did not receiue this go­uernement. I omit to speake any further of the particular offices, vntil we come to the seuerall handling of them. And as tou­ching the lawes which here are required, either they are not at all described in this booke, which were grosse, or else we must confesse that the lawes of Christ are vn­perfect, which is impious. For the lawes that in the end of this boke are set down, are such as may seeme to be sufficient for the ordering of the common sort, but if the Elder be disordered, here is no lawe for his reformatiō, or if the whole seigno­ry do faile either in iudgement or in pro­ceeding (as generall councels, much more a priuat eldership may feele their wants) there is no manner of proceeding declared in this euill. VVell the church of Christ must be guided by his officers and lawes. How is this proued? Heere is alleaged Matth. 11. 29. where Christ wil­leth vs to take his yoke on vs. Mark. 13. 34. where is shewed that he hath com­mitted to euerie man his worke: in both [Page 30] these, he speaketh not of discipline, one­ly he willeth men in all meeknes to walke in their callings. VVhereunto is fitly ioy­ned that of Paul, 1. Cor. 11. 16. If any man lust to be contentious, we haue no such custom nor the churches of God. And I wish with all my heart that he which quoted these pla­ces, had the grace to practise that do­ctrine which in them is contained. That of Iohn, Reue. 22. 9. where the Angel doth forbid Iohn to worship him. I acknow­ledge my ignorance in not conceiuing how it is applied to the matter in hande, Keeping the dutie of faith. This keeping of faith in the bond of peace & loue, beeing required in the foresaide officers (as the wordes seeme to import) cannot be con­cluded by the places of Scripture, which are cited for that purpose, Eph. 4. 3. 1. Cor. 1. 13. Mark. 9. 50. Iohn. 13. 34. 1. Cor. 13. 4. 1. Pet. 1. 22. 1. Iohn. 3. 18. for all these (one of them onely excepted, viz. 1. Co. 13. 4. which describeth the properties of loue) are generall exhortations vnto all men, not particular to these officers, to keep [Page 31] the vnitie of the spirit in the bōd of peace and loue. Thus farre of the matter wher­of this visible church is framed. Now fol­loweth the dignity and glorie thereof.

Answere.

The excellency of the visible church of God is cōmended vnto vs by the names & titles giuen vnto it, & also by this, that the couenant and promises of peace are made vnto it, Ez. 48. 35 Math. 8. 20 Esa. 62 both which we acknoledge [Page 32] with them, both iointly, and in euery par­ticular title and promise. Onely I would haue obferued that some of these quota­tions are not made in the wisest sort: for Heb. 3. 6. and 1. Cor. 3. 17. do not speake of the whole visible church, which is a companie of both good and bad, which ioyne in one profession, but of the faith­full only, which are members of the same. VVheras the church is called, a holy peo­ple Zach. 8. 3. 1. Pet. 2. 9. (as vpon the like allegation hath bin said) it is partly in re­gard of Gods couenant, and partly to put them in remembrance of that holinesse, whereunto they are called, and wherein they ought to walke, and not as if they were void of pollution, as our author fan­tastically dreameth. This church is called a vineyard Esay. 5. 1. but not in the place cited for this purpose. It is compared vn­to a garden inclosed, but not so called Cant. 4. 12. and Esa. 51. 3. It is called the kingdom of heauen Matth. 11. 12. but in the thirde of Michah alleaged is no such thing. In deede in a written copie I finde [Page 33] Math. 3. 2. quoted, where the kingdome of God is mentioned, not for the visible Church, but for that happinesse which is assured in newnesse of life. In which sense that of Christ is to be vnderstood Iohn. 3. 3. whereas the Church is called the body of Christ. Ephes. 1. 23. It is not meant by the visible, but the vniuersall church of God. Thus vnder hope to get credit by folding vp a multitude of scri­ptures in a narrowe roome, ignorance hath vnfolded and laide it selfe open to the broad world. But why are these ti­tles of the church broght into this trea­tise? Surely that from the excellencie of them might be enforced a perfection. But who knoweth not wherefore these titles were giuen, and those promises were made vnto the Church, viz. that it and e­uerie member there of might bee assured of Gods loue, whereby they might bee comforted in the middest of the repro­ches of men, knowing that the temporal miseries which they endure, and the de­spightfull dealings wherevnto they are [Page 34] subiect, shall not be able to ouerwhelme them seeing they are so precious in the eies of God. Also that the remebrance of this excellēcy, might stir thē vp to looke vnto their cōuersation, that as God hath begū to deal graciously with thē, so they shuld labor for the cōtinuāce of his loue in a daily mortifieng of their corrupt af­fections, & putting on the Lord Iesus, in whō only standeth the glorie, comfort, & saftie of the church.

And surely if this Church be considered in her partes, Brownist it shall appeare most beautifull, yea most wonderfull, and Can. 6. 4. 9. rauishing the senses to conceiue, much more to beholde, what then to inioy so blessed a communion? For behold her Isa. 62. 11. Io. 12. 15 Heb. 7. 8 king and Lord is the king of peace, and Lorde himselfe of all glorie. She enioyeth most holie and heauenly Mat. 11. 30 1. Iohn. 5. 3. lawes, most faithfull and vigi­lant Act. 20pastors, most sincere & pure Rom. 12. 7 teachers, most carefull and vpright Rom. 12. 8 gouernours, most diligent and Act. 6 trustie deacons, most louing and sober Rom. 12. 8 Iohn. 13. 17 Deut. 13. 17 releeuers, & a most Math. 5. 5. Deut. 18. 10 Eze. 36. 38. Esa. 60. 8 humble, meek, obe­dient, faithful & louing people, euerie 1. Reg. 7. 9. Zach. 14. [...]1. 1 Pet. 2. 5 stone li­uing, elect & precious, euery stone hath his beu­tie, his Gal. 6. 2 burden & his 1. Co. 12 Rom. 12. 3 order, al bound to Heb. 10. 24 edi­fie [Page 35] one another, exhort, reproue & comfort one another Leui. 15. 17 1. Thes. 4. 9 louingly, as to their owne members, Col. 3. 23 1. Ioh. 3. 20 faithfully as in the eies of God.

No 2. Col. 2. 17 3. Iohn. 9 office here is ambitiously affected, no 1. Ti. 4. 2. 3 Gal. 6. 12law wrongfully wrested, or 1. Cor. 5 wilfully neglec­ted, no Iere. 23. 28 1. Tim. 3. 15 truth hid or peruerted, 1. Cor. 6. and 14. 30. euery one here hath fredom & power not disturbīg the peace­able order of the church, to vtter his cōplaints & griefes, & freely to reproue the trāsgressiōs & errors of any, without exceptiō of persons.

Here is no Iohn. 10. 1. intrusiō or climbing vp another waie into the sheepfold, thē Act. 1. 23. & 6. 3. & 14. 23 by the holy & free electiō of the Lords holy & free people, & that according to the Lords ordinance, hūbling thē ­selues by fasting and praier before the Lorde, crauing the direction of his holy spirite for the trial and approuing of his gifts.

Here is a third matter set down to com­mend the church vnto vs, Answere. viz. the glorie, excellēcy & sincerity of euery part therof being seuerally considered. VVhich mat­ter if it could be as soundly proued, as it is cōfidently spokē, thē were this church in itself without Christ most beutiful, yea most wonderfull, and euen rauishing the [Page 36] senses to conceiue, much more to be­holde: what then to enioy so blessed a communion? But to begin withall, the place of Salomon, Cant. 5. Can. 6. 4. 9. is much a­bused by the author, whilest that it is ap­plied to cōmēd the beutie of the church, which is nothing else but blacknesse, as the church her selfe acknowledgeth. For wheras in the former chapter the church hath accused her selfe of negligence, in not perfourming her dueties vnto her spouse. And (the daughters of Ierusalem comforting her) she declared his nature and disposition, the place of his abode, &c. whereby shee doeth aggreuate her former fault. For (quem beneficia accepta meliorem non reddunt, Chrisost. de sacerd. li. 4. is certe etiam grauius suppliuum commeretur. Hee whome bene­fites receiued make not better, doth de­serue the more grieuous punishment. And surely the greater the loue of Christ is to the church, the greater is the sinne of the church in not performing dutie.) Novv in the former parte of this sixth chapter, her beloued doth comfort her, [Page 37] & doth assure hir that she is as dere vnto him novv, as euer before she had beene. So then it is not the excellencie of the church that commendeth her, but her spouse through his gracious fauor doth accept of her, notvvithstanding her de­fects, which she acknowledgeth. The seueral parts of the church. To let this passe, let vs consider the seuerall parts of this visible church. Her king. Her King and Lord is the king of peace, and Lord himself of al glory, the sauior of Sion. Esa. 62. 11. a king, Iohn. 12. 15. and one, whose soueraigntie was figured in Melchizedek, Heb. 7. 8. So that in regard of this hir king, we also do confesse the church to be glorious; She enioyeth most holy and heauenly lawes. Her lawes. Most true it is, that the commandements of Christ are such, that it cannot iustly be counted a seruitude to be obedient vnto them; yrksome they are no doubt to a carnall man, but not to him that lo­ueth God: this is it that is witnessed in the places alledged, viz. Matt. 11. 30. and 1. Iohn. 5. 3. but what are these Lawes and commandements? Our Sauiour Christ, say [Page 38] they, was fortie daies after his resurrection conuersant with his Apostles, teaching them those things which concerne the building of the church and kingdome, and the Apostles accor­ding as they haue receiued instruction of him, so they builded, and lefte vs a patterne nowe. So that these most holie lawes were gi­uen by Christ to his Apostles, betvveene the times of his resurrection and ascen­tion.

VVhereunto I saie, that although the discipline of Christ beeing his owne ordinance is most holy, yet this is to put it in the number of vnwritten verities, when men would proue it by such argu­ments as this is. And as for the saying of Christ by them produced, it doth not speake of discipline, for hee onelie wil­leth his Disciples to take his yoake vp­on them.

I knowe that they take this Yoake for discipline, but the circumstaunces of the place do bewraie their ignorance in so thinking. For in bearing this yoake, CHRIST willeth that his example [Page 39] bee followed, Learne of me, saith Christ. Nowe I woulde vnderstande of these men, what was that Church, wherein Christ founde this discipline established, and submitted himselfe vnto the same, leauing this his deede for an example to bee followed: if they cannot tel me this, as it is harde to shewe that which neuer was, I wonder what hath moued them to wring out discipline from hence, seeing that Christ onely exhorteth to submis­sion, meeknes, &c. by his example. The Philosopher was not so grosse in his Panspermia, as they are in making quidli­bet ex quolibet so commonly. Yet I saie againe, the lawes of Christ are most ho­ly, and that discipline which he appro­ueth most necessarie, which is not the gouernment which heere is decyphe­red, for it shall appeare to bee the de­uice of man, without the approbation of the vvord of God, but the rule of his worde, wherein vvee are taught to em­ploie our selues in our seuerall callings, to performe those dueties which in our [Page 40] callings God requireth at our handes. As for the vigilancie of Pastors, Her mem­bers. the sin­ceritie of Doctors, the carefulnesse of Gouernors, the trustinesse of those vnto whom the care of the poore is commit­ted, the sobrietie of relieuers, the humi­litie, obedience and meekenesse of the people; these are required in the word of God, and all the testimonies in this cause cited (one or two excepted) are admoni­tions, & exhortations, that men wold be carefull of these things, as they do con­cerne them in their callings. But do these proofes here vsed iustifie that the visible church enioyeth such a people, qualified in this sort? Nay, those that come nee­rest the matter, as Rom. 12. 7. 8. Act. 20. 28. Matth. 5. 5. Deut. 18. 10. are but exhor­tations vnto this fidelitie, vigilancy, &c. but no promises that the church shal en­ioy such men alwayes. Bulling. & Ioh. Bale in Act. 2. Fre­neus contra valent. li. 1. cap. 27. Ter­tul. in pre­scrip. Heret. Some of these scriptures do flatly shew the contrarie. Read Act. 20. vers. 29. 30. I know, saith Paul, there shall enter in among you grieuous wolues, not sparing the flocke, &c. It is also [Page 41] the iudgement of some, that one of the deacons spoken of Act. 6. was the first of the Nicholaitans mentioned Reuel. 2. 6. Other places alleaged are nothing to the purpose as Ioh. 13. 7. which is not spoken of the widowes, that here are called rele­uers, but to the disciples of their duties in helping one an other. Likewise Esay. 60. which is a prophesie of the calling of the Gentiles, and & Eze. 36. 38. which promi­seth a blessing vpon Israell, are farre from prouing that euerie member of the visi­ble church is meeke, obedient, &c. thus hath our author tolde vs of many good things, without due proofe of any one.

VVhen this describer of the church, had shewed vs the sinceritie of euerie member particularly, he giueth his iudge ment of them all iointly, saying: Euerie stone is liuing elect & pretious, which is con­firmed with three testimonies: the first is, 1. Reg. 7. 9. where the building of Solo­mon being shewed in order, that he built one house to dwell in, an other called the forrest of Libanon, a porch for the throne [Page 42] where he iudged, and a house also for Pharaos daughter, it is said, All these were of costlie stones. And how then? did euerie of these buildinges to what vse soeuer they were appointed, represent the visi­ble church of God? The onely sight of this place is sufficient to shew what force it hath to prooue the matter in question. The second place is Zach. 14. 21. Euerie pot in Ierusalem and Iuda shall be holie vnto the Lord of hostes, and all they that sacrfice shall come, and take of them, and seeth therein: by this ceremonie the people were put in minde, that euerie of them doe worship the Lorde with holy affections, but this doeth not prooue that all the people did thus behaue thēselues in Gods worship; the contrary is plaine. Agg. 2. 11. 12. &c. The last place which is 1. Pet. 2. 5. cōmeth more neere the marke: for the Apostle saith that as liuely stones they were made a spirituall house; yet he saith not that e­uery one among them was so, and those that were, he declareth from whence it came: to wit, Iesus Christ. In which mat­ter [Page 43] (if no further purity be ment by the au­thor) we do agree: as also that euerie one hath his burthen & his order, being boūd to edifie one an other, exhort, reproue, and comfort one an other louingly as be­ing members of one bodie, and faithful­ly, as in Gods sight. The neglect of these duties hath bred, nourished, & continued this late & pestilent schisme amongst vs.

That the affecting of offices, the wre­sting or neglecting of laws, & peruerting of truth are not incident to the church, is newes too good to be true, as shal appere euen by the selfe same places of scripture which here are set in the margent as good proofes of the authors follies, whiles that they do so flatly gainesay that which they should iustifie. For manie make merchandize of the word. 2. Cor. 2. 17. And Diotrephes lo­ueth to haue the preheminence 3. Iohn. 9. then is there affecting of offices. In the latter times some shall speake lies through hipocrisie, and haue their consciences burned with an hot iron 1. Timoth. 4. 2. And some desiring to make a faire shew in the flesh constraine men [Page 44] to be circumcised Galat. 6. 12. then is there peruerting of trueth. The Corinthians were negligent in proceeding against the incestuous person 1. Cor. 5. then is there neglecting of lawes. VVhat shall we then say to this man, who woulde make the world beleue, that the scriptures do con­firme that, which they do so directly and plainely deny? Let him pronounce the sentence vpon him selfe. He saith, The pro­phet that hath a dreame let him tell a dreame, and he that hath Gods word let him speake Gods word faithfully. Ier. 23. 28. and so say I: for it is a vile abuse, that is offered to God and man, when a dreame or fancie is countenaunced with the scriptures, which doe ouerthrow it. What is the chaffe to the wheat. Timothie durst not thus behaue himselfe in Gods house 1. timoth. 3. 15. Euerie member of the church (say they) ought to haue freedome to vtter his complaintes and griefes, yea and not disturbing the peaceable order of the church (by passing the boundes of his calling) to reproue transgressions and errors: this we grant of our owne accord, not be­ing [Page 45] vrged hereunto by any thing menti­oned. 1. Corinth. 6. or 14. 30. which proue it not; but that the estate of the visible church is such, that euerie member hath alwaies this freedome, we deny it. Also, we say, that as there may be intrusion or climing vp an other way into the sheepe­fold through mens corruptions, then by the election of those to whome election doth belong: so woulde it be a horrible cōfusion if the election of offices were left in the hands of the people, as in this plat­forme of discipline they doe teach vs, but that the people should haue their interest in ordination, also is more then grosse. For proofe whereof, I will not stand vp­pon those places of Paule 1. Tim. 5. 22. lay not thy hand rashlie on anie man, and Tit 15. for this cause left I thee at Creete, that thou mightest appoint Elders in euerie citie, be­cause that although they flatly gainesay the ordination of Elders by the people; yet they seeme not sufficient vnto some, to infringe the libertie of the people in e­lection also; Caluin Inst. lib. 4. cap. 3 Sect. 15. because that Luke shewing [Page 46] howe Paule and Barnabas appointed El­ders in the churches, Act. 14. 23. saith that they did it by consent. And it is not to be thought saith Caluin that Paule did grant a grea­ter liberty to Timothie and Titus then he tooke vnto himselfe: for which purpose is also alleged Ciprian who would, Cipr. lib. 1. vt sacer­dos plebe presente sub omnium oculis deligatur atque dignus atque idoneus publico iudicio cō ­probetur; Epist. 3. that the priest, when the people are present, be chosen in the sight of all & be approued to be sufficient & meete by common consent. Vnto all which I say, that euen these authorities of Luke, Cal­uin, and Ciprian do flatly deny that elec­tion should be made by the people: for Praeesse electioni debere alios pastores nequid vel per leuitatē, Calu. Ibid. vel per mala studia, vel per tu­multū à multitudine peccetur. Other pastors ought to rule the election, lest the multi­tude faile either through lightnes or by e­uill practises, or tumult: so that howsoeuer it be granted by these places cited, that a wise people ought to haue their cōsent in election, yet if they be tumultuous, ill cō ­ditioned, [Page 47] or void of grauity (as generally the cōmon sort are fautie in one of these) then ought other pastors to rule, yea and ouerrule thē. Those churches also which by the iudgement of our author himselfe are most reformed, who admit not any thing of weight to be don, inscia vel inuita ecclesia, yet whatsoeuer pertaineth to the state of the church, they haue the same di­sposed by the cōmon counsel of the Elder ship, so that election is in their power, the people consenting vnto them. And ther­fore (not to presse the authority of Chri­sostom, writing about the yere of our lord 500. saith flatly that neither people nor Elders were to elect a bishop, Chrisost. in Phil. hom. 2. or a mini­ster but the bishop only) neither election, much lesse ordination ought to be at any time in the hands of the multitude, furder then in giuing cosent vnto the pastors, nor at all to be regarded if they be such as before haue bin mentioned; and ther­fore as these men are vaine in arroga­ting more then this, so are they vaine in censuring the churche of Englande, [Page 48] for that it leaueth not this election vnto the people, whose ignorance is general­ly great for want of instruction, & whose heads are generally very tumultuous by the meanes of such as this our author is. VVhy are not they a holie and free people? Num. 16. 3. Indeede when Corah and his companie had gathered them selues togither a­gainst Moses and Aaron, they said, Ye take too much vpon you seeing all the congre­gation is holie euerie one of them and the Lord is among them. But I doubt I should iniurie Corah by comparing these men vnto him; for he vnder the pretense of holi­nesse and freedome, sought onely to be priuiledged from submission; but these our men vnder the same vaile, content not thēselues herewith, but in their aspi­ring minds do seeke to bring not the go­uernement of the church onely, but of the weale publike also into their handes; for obtaining where of they lay this plat­forme: first that priuatmen are to erect and establish this gouernment of theirs, and then it being erected that all matters [Page 49] both ciuill and ecclesiastical are to be or­dered by the same. The later of these two pointes wil be manifest hereafter in their description of an Elder, who (as they say) must discerne betweene plea and plea, &c. And as touching the former point, al­though in one of their writings which they haue dispersed they haue made this protestatiō; We purpose not to medle with the reformation of the state, otherwise then by our prayers vnto God; yet as forgetting them selues, immediately after in the same dis­course they affirme, that Christ hath left but one forme of gouernement in his last will and Testament vnto his church, which he hath sealed with his bloud: and therefore not left it arbitrable at the plesures of princes, or policies of times to be done or vndone, but made it by a double right inuiolable, both by his vvord and his Testamēt: so that the church of God can neither be gouerned by any other lawes or gouernement, neither ought it to be without this; for God holdeth them all in the state of enemies, which haue not his sonne to raigne ouer them. Now then the [Page 50] faithfull are cōmāded to gather togither in Christs name, with promise of directiō & protection, & authoritie not only to e­stablish his lawes & ordinances amōg thē but faithfully to gouern his church ther­by; for the kingdom of God cōsisteth not in word but in power. Now this assembly of the faithfull before they be planted & established in this order, cōsisteth hither­to but of priuate persons, none as yet be­ing called vnto office, & function. There­fore we may well conclude that God cō ­mādeth his faithful seruants being as yet priuat men, togither to build his church, according to the true patterne of Christs Testament: thus farre they. But here is no word of God to proue any of these asser­tions: we read of Asa, Iehosaphat, Iehoiada the priest, Hezekia, Iosia & others, some of them pulling downe the abominations of Iuda, others setting vp the priests & Le­uits in their places in the house of God disposing thē as in the feere of God, semed good in their eies; but in the whole book of God is not to be found either precept [Page 51] or exāple to warrant a priuat man in pur­ging, much lesse in erecting the church of God. Who then required these things at the hands of these men? will they tell vs of extra­ordinary procedings in matters of extre­mity? Let them shew herein some extra­ordinary testimony from God to warrant vs in regarding them, otherwise here is in trusion. For howsoeuer Zerubbabel & Ie­hosuah, Ezra & Nehemia did daily pray for the restoring of the people out of captiuity, & were most willing & ready to go before thē, & to bring them to Ierusalem, yet vntill they had authority cōmitted to thē so to do by the kings of Persia, Cirus, Darius & others, Ezra. 1. they neuer durst attēpt the matter; Ezra. 7. and yet we may truly say that these were no common persons, Neh. 1. 4. & 2. 5. Iehosua being the high priest, Zerubbabel a chief mā of the people, Ezra a scribe of the law, & Nehemia a great man, yea in the court of Artashast: but they al knew ful wel that Moses & Aaron the prince and the priest must ioine together in all such actions.

Likewise in this church they haue holie Brownist [Page 52] Math. 5. 17 1. Tim. 1. 18lavves as limites and boundes, vvhich it is lavvfull at no hand to transgresse, they haue lavves to direct them in the choise of euerie of­ficer, vvhat kiude of them the Lord vvill haue.

Ansvver.

Their pastor must be apt to Leu. 21. 17 Matth. 2. 6. 1. Tim. 3. 2. teach, no yong scholler 2. Tim. 2. 15. able to diuide the word aright, Tit. 1. 9. 2. Tim. 4. hol­ding fast the faithfull word according to doc­trine, that he may be able also to exhort, rebuke improue with wholesome doctrine, and to con­uince [Page 53] them that say against it: he must be a man that loueth goodnes, he must be wise, righ­teoue, holy, temperate: he must be of life Tit. 1. 7. 8 vnre­proueable as Gods steward: he must be general­ly wel reported of, and one that ruleth his owne householde vnder obedience with all honestie: he must be modest, humble, meeke, gentle and lo­uing: he must be a man of Num. 12. 3 Esa. 50. 4 Iere. 3. 15 Eze. 34. 18. Zach. 7. 11 Act. 20 1. Pet. 5. 1. 2. 3. 4 1. Tim. 2. 20 great patience, com­passion, labour and diligence: he must alwaies be carefull and watchfull ouer the flocke, wher­of the Lord hath made him ouerseer, with all willingnes and cheerefulnes, not holding his of­fice in respect of persons, but doing his duetie to euerie soule, as he will answere before the chiefe shepheard, &c.

Ansvvere.

In this descriptiō of the pastors office, as the author hath set down some things therein required, so hath he lefte other matters pertaining (by his own doctrine) thereunto, altogether vntouched: for whereas he telleth vs of an Eldershippe, wherein the pastor is the chiefe, here is nothing mentioned of this matter, as if the ecclesiasticall censure remained as [Page 54] peculiar vnto the Elders. Againe, foras­much as he requireth in a pastor, that hee exhort, rebuke, and conuince the gayne-sayers of wholesome doctrine: hee doth confirme herein that which hath ben said concerning the Doctor, for either this functiō is not in the publik place of Gods worship, or else it doeth intrude into the pastorall charge, & so these offices would not be seuered and diuerse. Thirdly, see­ing modestie, humilitie, meeknes, &c. are necessarie in a Pastor, Doctor, Elder, aud all, we seee howe vnfitte these men are to beare anie office in the Church of God, considering how farre they are from mo­destie, meeknes, or ciuill honestie, when they call the ministerie of England trai­tors to Christ, In the trea­tise of the church ap­parant. the Popes bastardes, wicked guides, Antichrists, &c. VVhen the booke of common praier is tearmed a peece of swines flesh, In another pamphlet of theirs. and the people of Englande generally are accounted persecutors of the church of God, & no Christians. Last­ly, we may obserue, that some of these te­stimonies of Scripture in the margent are [Page 55] not so fit as might bee to proue the office of a pastor. For Nu. 12. 3. doth speake of the meeknes of Moses, but his was not a pastorall charge. Esa. 50. 4. setteth foorth the Prophets diligence, Zach. 7. 11. com­plaineth of the peoples obstinacie: but what are these to proue the office of a pa­stor? The place that is quoted 1. Tim. 2. 20. because it is somewhat after the end of the chapter, it shall be answered when that verse is found.

Answere.

In this description of a doctor here is nothing differing from that which hath bin in the description of a pastor. For as there, no mētion was made of any eccle­siastical iurisdiction, so here it is also pas­sed ouer in silence, as if he had neuer said that the pastor and doctor were gouer­ning officers. And as there he requireth of a pastor the diuiding of the worde of God aright, and the approuing of it to e­uerie mans conscience, so doth he heere require the same in a doctor: and both a­like in the iudgement of our author are to execute their office without any diffe­rence either of the place or of the mat­ter, or of the manner of dealing, then the which what can be more fond, if he spea­keth the truth in saying that these offices are limited, seuered and diuers. And lastlie, as in the description of a pastor, the scri­ptures were abused, so in this of a doctor they are not friendly handled. For these-places, 1. Tim. 3. Tit. 1. & 2. Tim. 2. 15. haue bene alleaged before for the pastor, who [Page 57] being an ouerseer of Christs flocke, hath not bene denied the vse of the Scriptures to decypher out his calling, but in bring­ing the same in again for a Doctor, it ap­peareth that the store is now spent, wher­of there was no spare in the beginning of this Treatise. Also these 1. Cor. 1. 17. & 2. 4. doe shew what Paul did in his Apo­stleship: but the office of a Doctor is a distinct matter from the office of an Apo­stle, Ephe. 4. 11 & therefore altogether impertinent vnto this matter, are these testimonies v­sed by the author.

Ansvvere.

The third sorte of gouerning officers in the Church, are by our author called Elders, concerning which name, howso­euer Caluine reporteth, Cal. Inst. lib 4. cap. 4. se. 1 that in churches of former times some had this title giuen vnto them, who onely were conuersant in the censure of the church, yet is it ge­nerally in the Scriptures ascribed vnto them that laboured in the worde and sa­craments; as appeareth Tit. 1. 5. Act. 14. 12. & 20. 17. & in other places. And theru­pon Caluin saith, Cal. Inst. lib. 4. cap. 3. sect. 8. Quod Episcopos & presby­teros, & pastores, & ministros promiscue vo­caui, qui ecclesias regunt, idfeciex scripturae vsu, quae vocabulaista cōfundit. In that I haue without making difference named Bi­shops and Elders, and Pastors and Mini­sters, I haue done it according to the pra­ctise of the Scripture which confoundeth these wordes. Ier. in tit. & Euagrio. E­pist. 58 And Ierome sayth, Vete­ribus eos omnino fuisse presbyteros, quos E­piscopos. VVith those of ancient times the same men were Elders which were Bi­shops. Therfore it is not so directly from [Page 59] the word of God, (as in the title of this booke is promised) but from the practise of some churches that he hath taken this name Elder, to giue it vnto those which beare office without anie further dea­ling in the ministerie of the word. As the name Elder in this place is not vsuall in the word, so the office of an Elder, as it is here described, hath neither warrant of the worde, nor yet of any church, whe­ther ancient or of latter daies. I graunt that certain churches haue made choice of men which shoulde deale onely in the censures of the church, whom they haue called Presbyteros, Elders. But the most that they haue euer required in such an Elder was, that he should be sound in faith, in life vnreproueable, able to di­scerne of the dealings of euerie calling in the church, careful to see rightly into the same, and readie to ioyne in correcting with ecclesiastical censure, those that are vndutifull, beeing helpfull vnto the rest. But that it shoulde belong vnto them to discerne betweene cause and cause, be­tweene [Page 60] plea and plea, &c. It is a plaine pulling of the svvorde out of the magi­strates hand. They meane no such mat­ter (they saie) for they graunt the magi­strate his authoritie ouer the persons, though not ouer the causes of men. This it is, whereas her Maiesty hath appointed Iudges in the land to end causes, decide controuersies, & to giue sentence vpon malefactors, and shirifes to see the exe­cution of that vvhich the Iudges haue determined: the seat of iudgement must be brought into the consistorie of these Elders, and the office of the Shirife must be onely lefte in the hande of the magi­strate, to see the decrees of these aun­cients put in execution. Now tell mee if these men do not goe beyond Corah & his companie, Num. 26. 3. as before vvas said? yet I will leaue the further consideration of these matters vnto those whom they doe concerne, onely let vs see vvhat warrants they haue out of the worde of God for the largenesse of this their commission. Num. 11. 24. maketh men­tion [Page 61] of three score and tenne men which were chosen by the appointment of God to bee assistants vnto Moses, but these were temporall magistrates, and not ec­clesiasticall. Againe, it sayth not that Mo­ses was discharged, and the authoritie of iudging betweene plea and plea, remay­ned in the power of these men onely. As like to purpose is Act. 15. where there is neither anie such authoritie mentioned as aforesayd, nor yet such an office as an vnministering Elder spoken of. For the worde Elders in that place, doeth signifie those that labour in vvord and doctrine, as hath beene noted before. As touch­ing that of Paul, 1. Tim. 5. 17. An Elder is worthie of double honour, especially such as labour in the worde and doctrine. From whence is collected that there were some Elders, which did not labour in the word and doctrine. I answere, that there was a time (as before was saide) when such Elders were in the church, but when they had their beginning, how long they cōtinued, & how far their office extēded: [Page 62] The author hath neither in this place nor els where shewed. At the first they were not, as by that hath bene shewed may ap­peare. Afterward it should seeme that some such were appointed for the secret meetings of the faithful, whiles they were vnder persecution, but when the church increased and was dispersed into nati­ons, as now it is in England, we reade not that such were continued in the Church, nay the contrarie is flatly testified. For as Ierome sayeth, Idem est Presbyter qui est Episcopus: & antequam diaboli instinctu, studia in religione fieret, & diceretur in popu­lis, ego sum Pauli, ego Appollo, ego autem Ce­phae, communi Presbyterorum concilio, ecclesiae gubernabantur. Postquam vero vnusquis (que) eos quos baptizauerat, suos putabat esse non Christi, in toto orbe decretumest, vt vnus de Praesbyteris electus supponeretur ceteris, ad quem omnis Ecclesiae cura pertineret. An El­der is the same that a Bishoppe is, and be­fore that through the instigation of the deuill affection bare swaie in matters of religion, and that it was said amongst the [Page 63] people, I am of Paul, I am of Apollo, I am of Cephas, the churches were gouer­ned by the common councell of the el­ders, but after that euerie one thought, that those whome hee baptized were his owne, and not Christes, it was deereed throughout the world, that one of the el­ders should be set in the place of the rest, to whome might pertaine the whole state of the Church. If there be any help, it must be had from the 2. Chro. 19. 8. for there it is thus writen. Moreouer in Ieru­salem Iehosaphat did appoint of the Leuites & of the priests and of the chiefe of the families of Israel for the iudgements of the Lord, and for strifes, when they returned to Ierusalem. By the iudgementes of the Lord are vnder­stood those holy causes, the knowledge whereof was committed to the priests & Leuites; by strifes are noted ciuil conten­tions: the ending whereof pertained to the chiefe of the families of Israell. This selfe same matter is expressed also Deut. 17. 9. If there arise a matter too hard for thee in iudgement betweene blood and blood, plea [Page 64] and plea, betweene plague and plague in the matters of controuersie within thy gates, thou shalt then arise and go vp vnto the place which Iehoua thy God shall choose; and thou shalt come vnto the priestes of the Leuites, or vnto the iudge that shall be in those daies, &c. So that this disiunctiue (or) doth expresse a plaine difference betweene the office of the priest, and the matters belonging to the iudge. For althogh ve al hashpat be red in some translations & to the iudge, yet the twelft verse of this chapter doth end this controuersie, where the disiunctiue (or) is set downe by an other worde; That man that wil do presumptuously not harkning vnto the priest (that stādeth before the Lord thy God to minister there) o al hashpat, or to the iudge shall dye. For it is euident that bloud-shed pertained to the iudge, the descrying of plagues vnto the priest. Likewise conten­tions being about diuerse matters, those that concerned ciuil affaires pertained to the tēporall iudge, other matters of faith, were to be decided by the ecclesiasticall cēsure: so that althogh we shuld grant thē [Page 65] a seignorie, yet all causes are not to bee brought into their consistorie. In the meane time we see that these men being at defiance with popery, haue here shew­ed vs a reason of it, because the both of them would iudge all, and would be iud­ged by none, both wold priuiledge their owne deedes, and haue the handling of the causes of all others: and therefore as in the Papist, so in these we may see, a sot­tish ignorance with an arrogant and pre­sumptuous spirit.

Answere.

VVhereas the office of a Deacon is here mentioned, as distinct from the for­mer, it had beene requisite for the author more fully to haue expressed his minde: for as touching Deacons, it is generallie graunted of all writers, that they were in [Page 66] the primitiue Church, such as our author doth here speake of. One saith, that Pres­byteri, Episcopi, & Diaconi, hoc est ministri Christi, Elders, Bishops and deacons, that is to saie, the ministers of Christ: were names giuen generally to those that had to instruct the people. And for proofe thereof he alleadgeth that of Paul to Ti­mothie, Chri. hom. 2 in Philip. Ten diaconian sou plerophoreson, Fulfilling thy ministerie: & yet he was the disposer of Gods mysteries at Ephesus. Annother saith, Primum omnes docebant, & omnes baptizabant, Ambros. in Ephe. cap. 4 quibuscun (que) diebus vel temporibus fuisset occasio, nec enim Philippus tempus quaesiuit, aut diem quo Eunuchum bap­tizaret. At the first all taught and al bapti­zed, when & wheresoeuer occasion was offered, neither did Philip staie for a time nor a daie wherein to baptize the Eu­nuch. De decret. Nice. sinod. contra Eus. Athanasius expoundeth that of Paul, 1. Tim. 3. 8. where the Deacon is wil­led not to be double tongued, as if the dea­con were a teacher in the word: and he himself in describing how he fled for̄ the Arrians, sayth thus: Monui Diaconum vt [Page 67] recitaret Psalmum, populum item vt auscul­taret, &c. I willed the Deacon to reade a Psalme, and the people also to giue eare.

Therefore although master Cal­uine saieth, that Diaconi sub Episcopo pauperum essent oeconumi: Cal. Inst. lib. 4. cap. 4. sect. 5. Deacons shoulde vnder the Bishoppes be pro­uiders for the poore. Yet seeing they dealte in other matters also, and were called Diaconi, because they were ministers of the worde also; our author should haue shewed vs when it was that these Deacons ceased to deale in other matters then in prouision for the poore onely, or else hee shoulde haue tolde vs that there are two sortes of Deacons, Diaconoi tou logou, minister of the vvord, and ministers or disposers of the goods of the poore. And these thinges hee must haue prooued by Gods worde, and then in this pointe hee had per­fourmed his promise made in the Ti­tle of his booke, and shevved him­selfe to be so good as his owne worde, [Page 68] but nowe by what authoritie hee hath af­firmed, by the same authority may be de­nied such an office as is here spoken of, to be that Deacon which is mētioned in the places cited. Act. 6. For Philip who was one of the Deacons, did both teach and baptize, Act. 8. which matter although we should graunt that he did it, not as a dea­con, but being an Euangelist, as some with this distinction would shifte off the matter, yet must it bee confessed, that the Deacons mentioned in the Actes, were not discharged from dealing in the word, onely to take vpon them the care of the poore. Neither doeth Paul 1. Tit. 3. 8. speake anie thing to gainesaie this. Yet I grant that in the Church of God a care of the poore must bee had, and that there be faithfull men appointed for the same, of whom the Apostle speaketh, Rom. 12. 8. which place cannot bee referred vnto the liberalitie of al Christians in general, as some haue taught. For this is handled in the thirtenth verse of the same chapter, which shoulde haue beene done if there [Page 69] were not a difference betweene the mat­ter required in the eight verse, which spe­keth of the publike officer, and the thir­teenth verse, which extendeth it selfe to all Christians: for vaine repetitions are not vsed by the Apostle. But to go for­ward.

Answere.

As concerning widowes, we grant that they may be helpfull to the sicke, but yet so burdensome vnto the rest, that the re­liefe of the poore whiles they are to bce maintained thereby, shall be diminished, [Page 70] so that they may more truly be called the relieued, then relieuers. Now for the ne­cessitie of such in the church, it is not pro­ued out of Tim. 3. 10. nor yet out of anie place of Scripture else; & why? For the L. knoweth the impossibility in hauing such in euery congregation, & in maintaining them, the most that can be granted is, that were the church possessed of such, & ther­withall able to maintaine both them and these whome they were to attend vpon, then would it be a great comfort to them all. I spare to speake further of these, only it may be obserued that the place cited to proue such an office in the church, 1. Tim. 5. maketh nothing for it. For Paule as the circumstanstances of the place doe shew speaketh of such as are to be succored by the church▪ Honor widdows, which are wid­dowes indeed, that is, which haue nede of helpe, and so procedeth in shewing what they are which especially are to haue the relief of the church, vz. such as by reson of their age and want of frends are not able to help themselues, althogh in a godly af­fection [Page 71] they hate idlenesse: but as for the yonger widdowes they are not to liue by the maintenance of the church, least that idlenesse be maintained, the mouthes of the enemies be opened against the truth & the church be abused, whiles the goods of the church be spent vppon those who make protestation, that they haue no o­ther comfort (for to such only is the relief of the church to be giuen) & yet through the lust of youth do betake themselues to mariage again; which thogh it be a matter lawfull in it self, yet is it vnlawful to those that before God & his church haue vow­ed the contrary: and thus is this place ex­pounded by Theophilact, Ambrose, Bul­linger, Claudius Guilliaud and others. Thus haue we at the last the offices & of­ficers of a reformed church described, so wel as our autor could, of whom togither with his cōplices we may truly say (as A­drianus spake on his death bed of his phi­sitions, that they brought him to his end) these reformers in their platforme here prescribed haue offred vs such a medicin [Page 72] that if the Church shoulde bee voide of sense and receiue it, shee might in short time complaine, that these her Phisitions had brought her to her end: yet we must beleeue vpon paine of damnation, that it is a good receit: wherein they deale like vnskilful and vnconscionable Phisitions, who promise a wonderfull cure, rauishing the senses to conceiue, much more to beholde, what then to inioy so blessed a comfort? and yet will minister that which will bee the bane of the patient. Christ indeede hath shewed an outwarde gouernment vnto his church, whereof although we are not capable, partly by reason of mens insuffi­ciencie to order it, & partly by meanes of the crookednes of the common sort, who will not abide to be ordered by it, but e­specially for that a whole nation cannot so easily be brought to that vniforme or­der, as some one priuate congregation, yet assuredly the neerer we come to this his ordinance, the more heauenly is that harmonie and consent of ours. And here­in I will not staie in shewing how the laws [Page 73] of our Church of Englande haue proui­ded, that in the congregations we should haue Pastors: In the Vniuersities such as execute the office of doctors in bringing vp those in the knoledge of Gods word, which may supplie the places that are void of teachers in the Churches: & in all places, some to obserue the behauiors of men, others to collect the reliefe of the poore, &c. because that I write not an A­pologie for the Church of England, one­ly I woulde haue men to see the gouern­ment of Brownisme, what it is, viz so far disagreing from the discipline of Christ, that neither the frame of their building, nor the builders themselues haue the ap­probation of Gods worde, whereof they spake; but in this their dealing are like vnto the Cuthits & the rest, who inhabi­ting Samaria, falsely bragged that they were the children of Iacob, and blindly deceiued thēselues with a false worship, as may appeare by one of them, I meane the woman of Samaria, Iohn. 4. For as the Lord had established his worship vppon [Page 74] mount Sion: so one Manasses to aduance himselfe, erected a temple vppon mount Gerazin, the Iewes according to Gods appointment worshipped at Sion, the Sa­maritans at Gerazin. A cōtrouersie rose between them which of these people did best. Iohn. 42. 2. Christ sayth to the Samaritanes, Yee worship ye wot not what; yet they had a tē ­ple, a Priesthood, and other ordinances, which were kept at Ierusalem. But who gaue Manasses authoritie to erect a tem­ple, assemble a people, ordain, &c. These men came not so neere the discipline of Christ, as the Samaritans did resemble the discipline at Ierusalem: and Manas­ses being the sonne of the high Priest had as good a warrant for his proceedings, as a priuate man might haue, and yet his dealings were accursed. Nowe when these mē faile both in this, that they haue not authoritie to erect discipline, and al­so if this were graunted, in that they haue described a false gouernement, we may not pronounce a blessing vppon them.

Answere.

VVee haue alreadie hearde both of the giftes and of the offices also of these seuerall callings, for so our author doth confesse afterwardes. Concerning which it is apparant, that the Pastor and Doctor are so described, as if there were no difference betweene them. The Elder indeede is seuered from them both, as if gouernment were peculiar vnto him a­lone, and his commission is sette downe so large, as if it were not limited. The Deacons office may be diuerse from the rest, but as yet we cannot finde it in that which he hath hetherto set downe. VVe will therefore consider that which fol­loweth. For either to make his volume greater, or to amende that which hath bene sayde, hee fetcheth the matter a­bout againe, and notwithstanding hee [Page 76] hath told vs (as he acknowledgeth) what these offices are, yet a good lesson can­not be tolde too often, we must bee con­tent to heare it againe. Therefore it fol­loweth.

Ansvvere.

It belongeth to the Pastor to fede the [Page 77] shepe, to draw thē frō euil by the power of the word, both in matters of faith & man­ners of life, to preserue them frō schismes & heresies, schismatikes & heretiks, and to giue notice of the wilful and obstinate persons, that ecclesiasticall censure may proceede against them. For proofe whereof the places alleaged must haue a gentle construction before they may be accounted indifferent. For though Le­uit 10. Num. 18. and Ezech. 44. do speak of the Priest: Likewise Psalme 23. and Zach. 11. of Christ: yet can they not pro­perly be applied vnto the Pastor, except we adde this, that the Pastor must walke in the steps of the Priest, and in the mat­ters aforesayd bee a follower of Christe. And that also Reue. 22. 2. forasmuch as it speaketh of the Church triumphant (as the whole discourse doeth shewe) it can hardly be brought to pertaine vnto the Pastor, except wee saie that it is in re­gard that the ende of his ministerie is to bring the people of God vnto the as­surance of this estate. So that to fill the [Page 78] quotations vnto the matter, wee haue great need of a friendly expositor. Now in the office of a pastor heere is an addi­tion, to that which in the former place was mentioned, that hee is to looke in­to the most secret thoughtes, thereby dis­cerning the diseases of his people; which should seeme a heauy burthen, for a man woulde thinke that the heart of man is a bottomlesse deepe: and that no man could know the heart of man, but the spirite that is in man, and that God onely trieth the heart and the raines; Iere. 17. 9. yet this is not so vnpossible as it doth appeare at the first sight. For there are diuerse meanes which may bee be vsed for the readie attaining vnto the matter: as the Papists for the same pur­pose had their auricular confession. And yet there is a surer waie, namelie, to per­swade the people (as some haue beene taught it publikelie for sound doctrine) that they may not come vnto the table of the Lord, before they haue examined ned themselues of their secrete sinnes, and also doe declare the same vnto the [Page 79] church, that is, not to the Priest, as it was in poperie, but to the Elders and people also, and this is not a secrete but­cherie of mennes soules as that was, but an open tyrannising ouer the consci­ence.

Answere.

Our authors meaning is, that the do­ctor do teach the truth, and conuince the gainsayer. All this we heard of before in the description of a doctor, here then is [Page 80] no addition to supplie the wants of that discourse, onely it is countenanced with a greater number of Scriptures then it had at the first, and therein bewraieth a greater folly, for the margent is pestered to no purpose: For what doe these pla­ces cited tell vs? Ezech. 33. 1. setteth out the dutie of a watchman. 1. Cor. 11. 19. sheweth the necessitie of heresies. Ioh. 10 11. speaketh of the shepheard Christ, Le­uit. 10. 11. (which also was alleadged for the pastor) was spoken of the Priest, as was Eze. 44. 24. and Mal. 2. 6. Paul. 1. Cor. 1. 7. saith that the Corinths were not de­stitute of anie giftes. Also in the 1. Cor. 2. 4. he speaketh of himselfe being an Apo­stle. The two places of his Epistle to Ti­mothie, do shew his dutie in the Church of Ephesus, where (as these men saie) hee had the function of an Euanglist. Paul E­phe. 2. 20. telleth them that they are built vppon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Heb. 6. and 1. Peter. 2. 2. doe declare howe Gods people ought to growe vp more and more in the [Page 81] knowledge of Gods mysteries. I see not how anie one of these places can direct­ly prooue the office of a Doctor in the Church: for either they do testifie the du­tie of other callinges, or else they shewe what matters are effected in the people by the ministerie of the pastor. Now that place of Paul the first Epistle to the Co­rinthians, the third Chapter and the ele­uenth vearse, I haue kepte it vntill the last place, for that I finde it most of all abused, not so much because it is re­strained here to a Doctor, and yet the A­postle spake it generally of all sortes of builders: but for that the latter part of this Scripture is here expounded of false Prophets, which is to bee vnderstoode of such teachers as alwaies keepe the foun­dation, and builde in Christ, howsoeuer thorough their frailtie and weakenesse they bee farre from that exacte puritie which is required in handling the worde of God.

Ansvver.

It should seeme that the drawer of this gouernement would haue the ecclesiasti­cal censures onely to proceed frō the an­cients (or else he would in one place or other haue shewed that they without the rest were not to determine) and also that supreame authority should be in them to controll both teacher and people, being themselues priuiledged from the cēsures of other. The office of the Ancients (saith he) is expressed in the description: and in [Page 83] deede the matters heere spoken if, and some of the quotations, as Numb. 11. & 2. Chron. 19. are but repeated againe: I wil therefore passe them ouer now. Meat twife sodden hath little sweetenes in it. And as for the other places of Scripture I will not seuerally handle them, because they haue so small force in them to proue the matter whereunto they are applied. That in the twētith of the Acts, & 1. Pet. 5 haue serued for the pastor once or twise; wherein as I woulde haue him consider, that a man may weary his frends by vsing them too often, so he is to remember, that therein he maketh no difference be­tweene a pastor and an elder. The residue of the Scriptures are these, Deut. 16. 18. where the appointing of Iudges, Deut. 10. 16. where the circumcision of the hart is commanded. The Apostle sheweth Ti­mothie his dutie 1. Tim. 3. 15. and 2. Tim. 1. 13. he reproueth contention 1. Cor. 11. 16. & 14. 33. sheweth his affection to the Ga­lathians, Gal. 2. 4. and the creation of all things to be by Iesus Christ Colos 1. 16. [Page 84] but what are all these for an Elder? If it were not that Rom. 12. 8. were a frende at all assaies, we should haue had iust occa­sion to complaine that all these places were abused: whereas now we say, that one among a dossen is reasonably wel ap­plied, although it can not be proued that euen this place speaketh of such rulers as now are in question.

Answere.

These offices with their marginal quo­tations haue bene already considered of, & therefore auoiding so manie vaine re­hearsals, I referre the reader to that which had bin said of them before.

Ansvvere.

In these wordes are set downe these principal points, first that in Gods church euerie member is to seeke the good one of an other, and also to further the good of the whole bodie, Secondly, that a iarre in the members, causeth a confusion of the bodie. In both these we agree and do allowe the ninth of Luke vers. 46. &c. and Ioh 13. 12. &c. as good proofs for them; although it is to be obserued that neither of these places doe speake of these offi­cers, for such there were not among the disciples. Thirdly we are told that as eue­rie member is to performe the duties of his calling, so is he not to intrude into the function of others, vnto this I also conde­scend, not for that our author saith it, in­asmuch as he will not frame his actions according vnto it; Chrysost, in Act. hom. 1. for doctore nihil frigi­dius, Rom. 12. 6. qui verbis tantum philosophatur. 1. Cor. 7. 20 He which teacheth in word onely is a simple [Page 87] instructer: 1. Thes. 5. 14. but therefore we beleeue it, bicause we are willed to walke in our cal­lings, and to admonish those that are vn­ruly, such as will not abide in that place wherein the Lord hath set them.

Fourthly he saith that the necessitie of these officers is such, that whereas one of them is wāting, there is a grieuous lame­nesse, and apparant deformity of the bo­bodie, &c. and this is proued by 1. Cor. 12 and Ephesians 4. In both which places as other giftes and offices are set downe to haue bene in the church, as 1. Cor. 12. A­postles, prophets, gifts of healing, diuer­sities of tongues, &c. And Ephes. 4. Apo­stles, prophets and euangelists, so are not all these officers required by our author in those places spoken of, but in the place to the Ephesians, the pastor and doctor onely, and in the Corinthes, though hee would indeuour to wring out elders and deacons from thense, yet must hee ac­knowledge that his widdowes are not mentioned. Our author therefore may as well say that the want of the Apostles, [Page 88] Euangelists, gifts of healing and the rest doe cause deformitie of the bodie (and that by these places by himself alleaged) as doth the want of Elders, Deacons & releeuers. Nay it hath bene alreadie pro­ued that this gouernement was neuer to be imposed vppon all sortes of people a­like, and that the want of some of these offices haue neither bene deformitie in the bodie, nor iniurie vnto the head. This rather is an iniurie offered vnto Christ Iesus, if either a priuat man should thrust himselfe into a publike calling of the ma­gistracie or ministerie, without his war­rant (as these Brownists doe both) or if a publike magistrate shoulde prophane Gods ordinances, by placing insufficient men in so high a roome, as is the gouern­ment of the church; which must be done, if this bee true which these men speake. And thus much of the discipline where­by the visible Churche (as they say) shoulde bee gouerned; for we are now once againe come to the conclusion of this part.

Answere.

God hath in deede committed au­thoritie vnto his church of binding and loosing, and hath also shewed an order of proceeding: which assertions are to be collected out of these three places of Scriptures, which are twice noted in the margent, that the number of testimonies which they vsed might seeme greater [Page 93] then it is. But here we haue to marke, that Christ is said to haue giuen this power a­foresaid to euery member of the church, so that heere is no difference made be­twene the people, & the gouernors; or at the lest, i [...] he supposeth a difference to be betweene them: he hath not set downe how farre the authoritie of the people is extended. Againe, if the people be gran­ted so greate an interest in the matters of the church, we must thinke that the offi­cers themselues, I meane the Deacons & releeuers were not to be secluded: which being graunted, and seemeth here to be concluded, not only women haue to dele in the censures of the Church, but also the description of euerie office, (the El­der onely excepted) hath ben vnperfect, seeing no such matter hath beene men­tioned in any of them. Secondly, we are to note, that he saith, that this order is not left to the descretion of the church, for if his meaning bee, that the censures of the church ought to bee vsed with all fi­delitie, wee doe not gainesaie him, [Page 94] but if hee meane that when they are not duely executed, there the church doeth cease to be the church apparant (accor­ding to that doctrine which in another place they haue set downe) then do they agree with the Anabaptists & Donatists herein, In the trea­tise of the church ap­parant. Aduersus Anabapt. lib. 6. cap. 10 Cōtra Par­menianum. lib. 3. cap. 2. who being sufficientlie answered the one by Bullinger, the other by Augu­stine, I maruell that these men shoulde not be satisfied and contented to reuoke this error. The summe of whose answers tend to this, that the end of excommuni­cation (for the question is not of the of­ficers, but of the church censures in this place) is, that the partie punished might bee amended, that the credite of the church might bee furthered, that o­thers be not offended and made worse, and that the church might be preserued in peace. Therefore edification and the welfare of the Church are especially to be regarded: for better it were that wic­ked men should goe vnpunished, if the punishing of them shoulde damnify the Church. 1. Cor. 5. Againe, the church of Corinth [Page 95] was the church of God, when they neg­lected to proceede against the incestu­ous person. Also the last supper of the Lord was rightly administred, yet Iudas was not excommunicate: the Prophets complained of the sinnes of the church in their times, yet contemned they not the sacrifices, sacraments, and worship of God. Christ and his Apostles blamed the Church for grosse corruptions, yet was he circumcised therein &c. By which rea­sons as by others by thē produced, we are vrged to acknowledge that it may be the Church of God, which doth not alwaies proceede against the wicked according to their deserts. Thirdly, we are to marke that hee ascribeth the keies of the king­dom of heauen to the officers before na­med, whereas Christ committed this po­wer, not to the Elders, for none were e­stablished, but vnto the ministers of the word, for in Peter they all are represen­ted, as by considering the places alleged out of Mathew and Iohn, will plainly ap­peare.

Answere.

I thought it conuenient to ioyne al this togither, being but one matter, viz. the proceeding of the church, and of euerie member thereof: Concerning the which I say, with them that God hath not onely giuen a charge to euerie member of the church to looke vnto his steppes, that he refraine from offending his fellow mem­bers, least thorough his owne default [Page 99] the church be prouoked to proceed a­gainst him, but also hath prescribed vnto the Church her order of proceeding; which order I grant to be here set downe in part; namely, so long as the con­uersations of men are in question; but in matters of faith these rules will faile: for although it be the nature of man to erre, & in his errors we may not depriue him of admonitions, yet if his error do proue an heresie, after once or twice admonitiō at the vtmost he is to be reiected. For a simple error may be healed, but per­uersnesse is incurable: and the manner of his reiection is not in a bare forsaking of him, but in restraining him, least that by his false doctrine the simple sort be sedu­ced. I speake not now of the Magistrates authoritie, Tit. 3. i0. who was commanded by the Lord to cut off the false prophet; but I speake of the ecclesiasticall power, which hath his warāt for the suppressing of such: the order of whose proceeding is first ad­monition, then excommunication, after­wards to make the magistrate acquainted [Page 100] both with this euill, and with his duety in proceeding against it, (for I will not vrge that of master Bullinger, who seemeth to go farther in asking this question) viz. if the church had onely authoritie to flie from, and not to chastice an heretike, how came it to passe that the Apostle Paul by the power of God depriued Elimas of his sight, Act. 13. 8. 9. bicause he did stubbernly main­taine falshood, and withstand the truth? But this point of discipline hath in wise­dome bene passed ouer, least that our au­thor shuld therin haue blamed both our teachers and our Magistrates for their to much lenitie in this schisme and here­sie. Now as touching the florish that is made with a great shew of scriptures in the margent, it is more then childish; not in regard of applying them, though one or two of them might be amended, but in respect of the vaine alledging of one scripture often, as Matth. 18. 15. 16. Leuiticus 19. 17. 18. Prou. 10. 12. &c. but he would haue vs to thinke that he is read in the scriptures, and therefore [Page 101] busieth himselfe with iterating so manie quotations. Gen. 17.

Answere.

Here we haue described vnto vs the state wherein this visible church doth stand, both in regard of the conenant be­tweene God and it; and also in respect of the sanctimonie thereof in the sight of men. As for the former of these, it is to be granted: but howsoeuer the promises are made vnto the church, and the worship approoued of God, is kept and retained [Page 102] therein, yet may it fall out that some one member thereof may haue no interest in the promises, as Matth. 22. 13. nor yet be a true worshipper of God, as Eccles. 4. 17▪ And although the church hath this digni­tie giuen vnto it thorow an especiall grace, yet some one man, who is not of the visible church may be partaker of the promises, and a true worshipper of God; as Naaman the Syrian, and Iob in the land of Hus; the visible church then being among the people of Israel. As touching the other matter; viz. that this church apparant is commended vnto vs both for the puritie thereof in it selfe, and also for the vncleannesse of all those which are not members of the same. It is a palpable grosnes to conceiue, & a sottish follie to publish such a dreame. For, are al they cleane which enter into the visible church? these men themselues haue con­fessed the contrarie. Gen. 4. 21. Are all the members of the visible church written in the lambs booke of life? Heb. 12. 16. who then blotted out Cain, Num. 16. 33▪ Esau, Rom. 9. 30. &c. Corah, yea and Israel it selfe? [Page 103] Againe, is it true that all those which are not vnder this gouernement are dogs, &c. I will not aske what shall become of these men themselues, but what is be­come of Peter and the rest that remained with Christ; and of all the churches of Ie­rusalem, Ephesus, Corinth, and the rest, which had not this gouernement and all these offices at any time among them? for some wanted Deacons, some widows, some vnministring Elders, some Doctors. To draw to an end. The scriptures that are alledged to proue these matters are either promises of that full redemption, which is obtained and shall be perfited vnto the church in the day of Christs ap­pearing, as Esa. 52. 1. and 35. 8. and Re­uelation 28. 27. or else are they types thereof, as Eze. 44. and the ninth verse, and Zacharie 14. 21. VVherefore they cannot proue the truth hereof in the vi­sible church of God. Also Reuel. 22. 15. sheweth the estate of the vngodly, which in the day of that generall search shall be thrust out of the presence of [Page 104] God. VVhich matter Paul doth plainly shew. Rom. 2. 9. for hee threatneth op­pression and anguishe vnto euerie soule that doth euill, whether Iew or Greeke, that is, whether of the visible Church or not. In this one thing these men may be commended, that seeing their assertions cannot bee warranted by the woorde of of God, they will doe the best they can to make their sayings true in themselues. For surely they coulde not possiblie giue ouer themselues vnto a doggish disposi­tion, as they do, if they were not perswa­ded, that in so dooing the conditions of men which haue cast off gouernement should in thē be made manifest vnto the world. VVee are therefore to desire for them, that discipline may be put in prac­tise, if happely they may bee brought to some good order.

Thus haue we seene how the Author of this Treatise hath failed in the perfour­mance of his promise made in the title thereof.

A SHORT ANSVVERE VNTO CERTAINE ARGVMENTS WHICH are vsed by the Brownists, to proue the Church of England not to be the true Church of God.

IN the end of the second booke of their conferen­ces, there is added a short treatise, as the summe of those matters, which in the conferences are said to haue bene handled: the manner of which discourse is this. In the toppe of the page this scripture is pre­fixed.