Many curates haue taken vppon them to saye, that they be not bounde to minister the sacramentes to the people, onles they be re­quired, and that speciallye the sacra­ment of extreme vnction, whiche com­monly is called anoyllynge. And yet the truthe is, that they are bounde to gyue a great diligence therto them self, and specially to admonyshe theym that be aboute the sycke persone, that they may haue knowledge when nede shall require. And therfore if any dye with­out that sacrament for lacke of suche good diligence of the curate, surely it is in hym a great offence.

2. ¶Also it hath ben a great default in many places, that the curates wyll not [Page] synge masse nor dirige for none of their paryshens at theyr buryals, no more than they wyll do for straungers that dyed within the parysshe, excepte they haue money for theyr labour, for sythe they haue of theyr paryshens theyr ty­thes, offrynges, and dyuers other pro­fytes and commodities, as curates cu­stomably haue: Charitie wolde that they shulde burye them especially that be householders, and theyr chylderne with dirige and masse freely, without takynge any thynge for it: but to saye masse and dirige for straungers they be not bounde therto, but of their charite. But yet to bury all them frely that dye within the paryshe they are bounde of duetie to do it.

¶Also it is greatte trouble and vexa­tion to the people in many places, that the sacrament of confirmation is taken fro the propre curates, and is gyuen only to byshoppes. For therby the peo­ple in some places be many tymes put to greatte labours and expences in gy­uynge [Page 3] attendaunce to the bysshoppes. And also many chylderne be therby in some countreyes longe vnconfyrmed, and sometyme dye without it: where if the curates myght confyrme theym, as they myght fyrste, they shulde be con­fyrmed with lesse labour, and be in mo­che more greater suertie to haue the sa­crament then they be nowe. And sythe byshoppes haue taken that auctoritie to them selfe, and no greatter conside­ration apperynge why they shulde do so then there dothe: It myght happely cause some symple men to esteme, that there is not suche necessitie in that sa­crament as there is in dede. For they may happely thinke, that if there were, the byshops wolde not put the children in suche ieoperdie to be so longe with­out it, as they be ofte by that occasion, and no greatter cause to moue them to it then they thynke there is.

¶The prohybitinge also of bysshops to graunt pardons hath letted greatly the deuocyon to pardons, and the ta­kynge [Page] of money for herynge of confes­sions, and specially at pardons, hathe also done right great hurt. For there is a sayeng, the mo confessions, the greatter profyt. Wherby it is ment, that the profyte in heryng confessions is moche regarded. And that hath made many tymes ryght short confessions, and also as light & as hasty absolutions, which perauenture hath made some vnware and vnlerned persons to haue the lesse regarde to be confessed.

5. ¶And why shuld the power of abso­lution that was gyuen by Christe to all priestes: be generally taken from them in any case, and specially from curates that be admytted to be sufficiēt to haue cure of soules, and be cōmytted only to byshops or to theyr deputies, which de­puties percase be not many tymes so sufficient as the curates be, fro whome it is takē: so that it semeth y ^t the power of pristes is restrayned in that behalfe by the lawe of man without cause resonable, and wolde therfore be reformed.

[Page 4] 6. ¶Also it wolde be playnly declared, where the curate may prohibite his pa­rishens to be houseled & where not. And surely it semeth not to stand with charitie, y ^t if a paryshener at the tyme of his houselyng lacke money to pay his due­tie, that he shuld be therfore prohibit of houselynge. And sure it is, that great grudges haue ensued in tymes past v­pon suche matters. A prieste (if he wyl) may go to masse, though he be in deed­ly synne, and no manne can prohibite hym: but if the curate onely by coniec­ture thynke his parysshener in deedly synne, he wyll prohibite him.

7. ¶Also curious buildynges of spiri­tuall men, and the apparel therof, whi­che sometyme be apparelled with vaine stories, stereth more theym that behol­deth it to vanitie and to a worldly loue, then to any mekenes or deuotion. And though it be right conuenient, that by­shops and other spirituall rulers haue conuenient dwellyng places after their degree, yet all wolde be ordered to the [Page] honour of god, and to the good exam­ple of the people.

¶Also it diminysheth the deuocion of priestes greattely in many places, that there haue ben so many chapplens and seruynge priestes. For they that be vni­uersally conuersant amonge laye peo­ple, and be bounde to obserue worldely attendaunce as lay men are, can neuer haue their minde so perfitly to prayer & deuotion, as they that be curates, or be continually resident in churches. For lyke as there is a mery prouerbe in places of courte, that the very walles tea­che the lawe, and that euerye busshe in the countrey teareth away a pece: so it maye be saide, that the very walles of the churche teache deuotion, and that worldly company driueth it awaye a­geyne. And whenne they be in youthe brought vp in suche worldly company, it wyll be harde for them in age to sette their mynde to prayer and contempla­tion. And surely if lay menne wolde be contented for preseruynge of deuotion [Page 5] in priestes to forbeare the seruyce and familyaritee of theym more then they haue done in tyme past, and wolde here masse and diuine seruice, whenne they myghte conueniently at their parysshe churches, at the leste on holydays, and when they may here none, wold supply it with prayer or some other good wer­kes, they shulde more please almyghty god therby, and more shewe them selfe to honour the sacrament then they doo nowe, whan they here masses of theyr chappleyns at home.

¶Also it hath bene a great ouersighte (as it semeth) in the clergie, that they haue made so strayte lawes of irregu­larite as they haue done. For it is hard for any prieste to eschewe them all. And thervppon it foloweth that whan they falle into suche irregularitie, and can not by and by be dispensed with (for there is none at hande that hathe that power) then neuer the lesse bicause they shuld not be noted, they yet syng masse as they dyd before. And that bryngeth [Page] some priestes into suche a largenes of conscience, that they be the bolder to do lykewyse in other thynges: and so by contynuall custome therin can lerne to lyue quietly in an euyll conscience.

Wherfore it were better, that irregula­ritie in some poyntes were clerely put away, than to driue them in euery light poynt to seke for dispensations. For many men thynke, that such dispensations not only in that case, but in many other also, serue rather for gettynge of mo­ney than for increasynge of vertue.

10. ¶And there is such a lyke thyng in religion. For they professe the olde ru­les, whiche although there be also some dispensations very strayte to be kepte in these dayes, bycause the people be not vniuersally so stronge now as they were at the makynge of the sayde ru­les. And when they see the reules day­ly broken afore theym, as well in other as in them selfe without correction, it bryngeth in to theym a quiete harte in an euyll conscience, a boldenes to of­fende, [Page 6] and fynally a custome in synne: wherby folowe many euyll examples to the people: and yet they that doo it, wyl be called holy and perfite. And sure it is, that it were better to haue an easy rule well kept, than an harde rule bro­ken without correction.

11. ¶Also it is a thyng greatly abused, that clerkes do clayme to haue as high power, and as moche lybertie in theyr possessions & goodes, as lay men haue in theirs. For the truth is, that they may take of the goodes that they haue for their ministration, but onely a reaso­nable sustentation for theym selfe, and for a conuenient sustenaunce for their householde, and the resydue they are bounde to distribute amonge the pore. And in this poynte the lawe of the re­alme is ouermoche fauourable to spiri­tuall men. For it suffreth them to make theyr wylles and bequestes of theyr goodes, how so euer they come to them by tythes, oblacyons, or otherwyse, as lyberally as any laye manne maye. [Page] And thoughe that be agaynste the ca­nons, yet the clergie of this realme, perceyuynge howe fauourable the lawe of the realme is to theym in that poynte, hath made a constitution prouinciall, accordynge to the lawes of the realme, that no man shall hynder or let the pro­bation of the same. And surely both the sayd lawes wold be reformed. For they haue ben a right special cause, as I suppose, that hath made so many to gruge at the goodes & possessions of the cler­gie as there hath done.

¶Also many priestes fynde defaulte that some prestes be in extreme necessi­tie, and haue nothynge to releue them selfe with, whiche is not as they thynke conuenient to be suffered in priestis: but they regarde but lyttell the pouertie of some lay manne. Our lorde was pore hym selfe: and his disciples, to whome priestes be successours, were poore also, and yet somme priestes wene, that it is not conuenient for any of them to be in pouertie. I beseche our lorde sende vs [Page 7] many that be ryche in vertue and pore in spirite, and then the worldly pouerte shalbe the more esely borne. I haue red of some byshops, that haue made suche ꝓuision, y ^t no prest shuld go abeggyng within his dioces, but I haue not red of any such prouision for lay men. But if some prouision were made to releue y ^e great multitude of poore men that be nowe in extreme necessite, I trow fewe thinges were more necessary to be gone about. And ouer that if any preste be in suche extreme pouertie as they speake of, it is moste specially through the de­faute of spirituall men, for they haue diuised titles for priestes in suche ma­ner, that they be of none effecte in the lawes of the realme: And the cause therof is, for they aske not counsaylle ther­in of them that be lerned in the sayd la­wes, ne as it semeth wyll not obeye the kynges lawe in that behalfe, but make them titles after the groundes of other lawes. And therfore priestes many ty­mes were as good to be without theyr [Page] titles as to haue theym in suche maner as they haue nowe.

13. ¶Also if the moste honest and most substanciall curates and priestes in the countrey were examined, what increace of vertue hath rysen by visitations and scenes, as they haue bene of late vsed: It wolde appere vppon that examina­tion, that lyttell or none hath folowed therby, but that the clergye & some lay men also appere there, and pay certain dueties, and then do after as they dyd before. And that the moste lightest per­sons in all the precincte of the visitati­on, by meanes of rewardes, shalbe suf­fred to cōtinu as they were wont to do. And syth the hole clergie haue submyt­ted theym to the kynges grace. It se­meth that he hathe good auctoritie to examyne, howe suche visitacyons be vsed, and to sette theym in suche or­der, that vertue therby maye hereaf­ter be increased, and vice repelled and putte awaye. And I suppose verayly, that his grace is bounde in conscience [Page 8] to loke specially vppon it.

14. ¶More ouer euen now of late syth the statute made in the .xxi. yere of the reygne of oure soueraygne lorde the kyng that nowe is, ageynst pluralities and none residēces, is risen this policy, that a priest that intendeth not to be re­sident, or that intendeth to haue mo be­nefyces than the prouisyon of the sta­tute waranteth hym to haue: wyll la­bour to some lorde spirituall or tempo­rall to be his chappleyne, nothyng purposynge to do hym seruice, and the lord lyke wise nothynge desyrynge his ser­uice: and knowyng also the entent why he dothe it, wyll accept hym to his cha­plen, and so wylfully defraude the sta­tute: Is this trowest thou my frende Byzance no offence in the lorde and in the chappleyne?

I thynke verily yes, and that the offence is greatter in the chappleyne thenne in the lorde, yf there be no cause reasonable why he dothe hit. And thoughe hit be more offence [Page] in the chappleyne, yet is hit no lyttelle offence in the lorde, that so wylfullye breaketh the intent and prouision of so good a statute. For the prouiso of the statute was made, bicause it was thought reasonable, that lordes spirituall and temporall shulde haue chappleynes to do them seruice: but here no seruice is regarded. And surely by suche meanes and other lyke, some priestes haue ma­ny benefyces, where an other good ho­nest priest, that is better worthy to haue a cure then he, hath neuer one.

¶Also thoughe the people be more prone and be soner moued to go on pyl­gremages, to bye belles, or vestemen­tes, or to gyue money for trentals, ma­kynge of chauntries, kepynge of obi­tes, maynteynynge processions and su­che other outward dedes, wherby some worldely recreation or worldely laude and prayse, or som good familiar chere and worldly thanke maye folowe, then they be to releue pore folkes that haue nede, wherby moste commonly neyther [Page 9] worldly prayse ne other worldly cōmo­ditie foloweth, specially if it be secretly hyd in the bosome of the poore man, as it oughte to be: yet do not prechers en­courage the people to releue their pore neyghbours that haue nede, as they ought to do: but suffre them to lye styll in suche outward dedes, as though all were wel, when it is ryght farre amys. The nature of man is moche inclyned to be lauded and praysed, and therfore the people wolde be continually instru­cted, that such laude diminisheth gret­ly the rewarde that they shulde haue of god for theyr good dedes. And they shoulde be instructed also, that what good dede so euer they do, they oughte to trust more in the grace and goodnes of god then in the dede, howe great so euer it be. Howe be it in whose default it is, that it hath not ben so in late tyme paste, I wyll not speke of at this time, but commytte it to other: but through whose default so euer it hath bene, yf it coulde yet be refourmed and broughte [Page] into due course, it were right expedient, and nothynge more then it were. I red ones a narration, that there was a pore sycke man that lay bedred, and had no­thynge to succour hym selfe with all, whervpon a neyghbour of his seynge his extreme necessitie, moued with pi­tie, appoynted one of his seruantes to see hym haue meate and drynke at cer­tayne houres, as nede required, wher­by the poore man was greatly releued a longe season. So it hapned that on a tyme the seruaunt that was wonte to bryng hym meate, had busynes, so that he myght not come at the houre accu­stomed: Wherfore the poore man was very angry bothe with the mayster and with the seruant, sayenge, they had no pitie on theyr poore neyghboure, and that if they were in like case as he was, they wold be lothe to be so serued them selfe, and prayed our lorde, that or that they dyed, they myghte feele the peyne that he felte. with those wordes the ser­uant came with meate. And yet the pas­sion [Page 10] of the man was so greatte, that he coulde not forbeare, but that he spake lyke wordes to the seruaunt. Then the seruant was angrye and sayde, that he sawe well, that his maister and he both had loste al their coste and labour, and so not contented with the pore man de­parted, and tolde his mayster all the matter, and that he thought it were wel done, that he shoulde lette hym alone, tyll he coulde mekely yelde hym than­kes for his good dede. The master an­swered and sayd: I do not that I doo for any thanke that I loke for of hym that I gyue it to, and sythe he gyueth vs no thankes for it, our rewarde shall be the more of god. And so he caused his seruaunt to doo as he hadde done before.

¶But yet though this manne toke it thus charitably, it is verye lyke that mooste other men wolde in suche case haue withdrawen their good dede. And surely suche chances wyll fall among, if men shulde set their myndes moche [Page] to releue poore men. As if a man lent money to a poore man at his nede, and at the daye he asketh his money, hit myght happe that yf he asked it twyse, that some poore man wolde saye, that he was very hasty in the askynge, ha­uynge no nede to it, with suche other vnsittyng wordes. And wolde not this happely discourage some man to lende money to other poore men in their ne­cessitie? I trowe yes, and yet it shulde not be soo. Therfore suche demeanour wold be moche reproued in poore men. And the ryche men wolde be also coun­sayled not to withdrawe their good de­des after their power for suche demea­nour, whiche in dede increaseth theyr rewarde greattely before god. And yf preachers dyd encourage the people to suffre suche thynges al that they coude, and yet some men wolde be the more slacke to helpe other poore men for su­che demeanour: howe wyll it be then thynkest thou, if men be nothynge en­couraged nor putte in mynde of suche [Page 11] sufferaunce, but be comforted as welle by secrete counsell in confession as by preachynge to gyue money for sowles inpurgatorie, or in suche other maner as before apperethe, as thoughe that shulde suffyse vnto them? wyl not then the Charitie to theyr neyghbours be lyghtly forgotten, though it be vndou­tedly the beste? It is no doubte but it wyll. And well I wote, that in the time of that, that is nowe called the olde ca­tholycal preachyng, the Charite to our neyghbours is nigh forgoten, & the abusions concernyng ꝓdons, pilgrimages, purgatorie, pompous buryals, tythes, offerynges, and suche other, haue be meruaylously multiplyed and increa­sed, and yet I haue harde but of very fewe in comparison, that haue loked to the reformation of it, our lorde amende it, when his wyll shall be. Amen.

16. ¶Also many prechers in tyme past haue tourned a great parte of the tale to the mayntenaunce of the lybertie of the church, to the honour of preesthod, [Page] to feare the censures of the churche, though they be gyuen withoute cause, and to obey al lawes made by the chur­che, and to doo as priestes doo teache, and not as they doo, suffyseth to laye menne: and suche other lyke, that the people haue myslyked greately. And whan religious men haue preched, they haue moche perswaded suche thynges, as haue ben for their syngular profite and commoditie, so moche that it hathe rather diminisshed the deuotion of the people then increased it. And therfore I am farre deceyued, but that the most parte of all the defautes and discordes that be nowe in the temporaltie, haue rysen through the defaut of the spiritu­altie. But yet I meane not that al such discordes be rysen by the defaute of spi­rituall menne, that be nowe lyuynge. For vndoubtedly they were begonne before theyr tyme by theyr predeces­sours: but yet my meanynge is, that the spirituall menne that nowe be, are bounde before any other to helpe to re­fourme [Page 12] suche thynges al that they can: And I truste that there be many dispo­posed so to do, if they had helpe.

17. ¶Also it is a greatte ouersyghte, that priestes accompte a defaute in one prieste to sownde to the rebuke of an o­ther prieste, bycause they be all of one order. And that yet they go not about to reforme them that so offende. And so it is lykewise of religious menne: and they gruge more in their hartis ageinst hym that maketh an euyl report of one, that is of the same degree that they be of, though it be trewe, than they do a­gaynste theym that make an euyll re­port of an other, that is not of the same degree that they be of, though it be vn­true. And surely that is a great defaut, and many great inconueniences folow vpon it, that I wyll not speke of now. And there is no reason why they ought so to take it, syth the defaut of one prest is no more reprofe to an nother, thenne the defaulte of one lay manne or laye womanne is to an nother.

It is trewe in dede as thou sayste, but yet the thyng that most mys lyketh priestes and religiouse men in suche reportes, is that they take it to be spoken to the reproche of all prie­stes or religious, and so some wyll saye in dede, that it is a shame to al priestis.

If any man say so, he is far ouersene. And priestes that be the lan­ternes and lyght of the worlde, ought moste specially before any other to take pacience at suche thynges, and rather to desyre, that the prieste that is repor­ted of, might come to reformation, then to take the matter as though it pertay­ned to them selfe. And veryly the truth is, that a defaulte in a laye man or wo­man soundeth mooste commonly more to the reprofe of priestes, than doth the defaute of one preste to an other: onles he be a speciall occasyon therof hym selfe. For priestes are more bounde to lay men then commonly one prieste is to an other. For they haue their lyuing of lay men, and are therby more speci­ally [Page 13] bounde by a dewe order of charitie to procure their helth of body and soule before other that they haue no such profyt of.

yea but the lyuyng that a priest hath is most cōmonly but of some particular laye men, that are but fewe in nombre as in comparison. And when he hath done his duetie to them agayn to pray for them, & doth for them as his dutie requireth, then is he neuer a whit bounden to other lay men that he hath no profite by, but is then boūden more to an other prieste, that is of the same order that he is of, and that is also in a more perfyte way of lyuynge than lay men be, then he is to other lay menne. And oughte therfore to myslyke more an euyll reporte of a prieste, then of a lay man, and so ought laye men to doo lyke wise, if they wolde folowe the due ordre of charitie.

As to that reson a seculer prest were more bounden to be discontented with an euyll reporte of a monke or a frere then of a seculer prest, for they be priestis as he is, and are in [Page] a more perfyte estate then he: and yet the common experience proueth, that they are not so, but rather be oft tymes ryght well contented, to here an euylle report of religious men, and they lyke wyse of them, and therfore the truth is, that the affection that one prieste hath to an other in suche case, is of a proude syngular loue that he hath to hym self: rather then of a charitable loue to other priestes. And here it may be considered, howe far we be fro the charitie of saynt Paule, when he sayd, ad Gal. iii. There is no iewe, there is no greke, there is no bondmā, there is none fre, there is no male, there is no female, as who sayth, the charitable man settith no difference betwyxte countrey and countrey, be­twyxte state and state, ne betwyxte kynde of male or female. For as it fo­loweth in the sayde texte, we all be one in Christe, that is to saye, we christen men ought to loue eche other in Christ, of what degree or condycion so euer we be. And surely laye menne do thus [Page 14] to spirituall menne, and many tymes loue a prieste, a monke, or a frier bet­ter then a lay man: but they wyll not commonly do so agayne, onlesse some profytte or commoditie comme to them therby, our lorde amende it, whanne it pleaseth hym. Amen.

I pray the procede nowe to some other matter. 18.

It is also a great de­faut in many spirituall men, that they haue made pretence, that the tenth part belongethe to priestes by the lawe of god, for by that pretence all customes prescriptions of none payment of any thyng that is tythable, though the cu­rate haue sufficient besyde, are clerely disalowed in spirituall courtes, and yet though somme question be nowe late­ly risen, whether the tenth parte be due by the lawe of god or not, no man in­deuoureth hym selfe to sette the matter in a clerenes, but suffreth it and dyuers other thynges also to rest styll in doute as they haue done in tymes past. Ther­fore the statute of .xlv. E. iii. commonly [Page] called the statute of Silua cedua, whiche is taken by many spirituall men to be ageynst the lawe of god: wolde be sene, and if it be ageynste the lawe of god, then it wold be broken, and if it be not, then it wolde be confyrmed, and ferther be prohibite that none vppon a peyne shal say so herafter. For if it be suffred to stande styll as it doth nowe, vndonted­ly great variaunce and expences wyll folowe thervpon hereafter. And spiri­tuall men are specially bounde to doo that in them is to put such thynges out of argument, and to set suche matters in suche a cleretie, that it shall appere, that they wolde not take one peny of the people for theyr spirituall ministra­tion more then they oughte to doo of ryghte. And that they seke rather the helth of their soules, then any lucre of their goodes.

19. ¶Also it is a right great ouersight that in matters concernynge temporall thinges, and wherof the spiritual court may yet after the custome nowe vsed in [Page 15] this realme holde plee, that they wyll iudge therin after the lawe ciuile or canon, and not after the lawe of the re­alme as they are bounde to do, and that vpon no lesse peyne then vpon the peyn of restitution, and yet they do not thus vpon the prescription of tythes, but fo­lowe a speciall prescription deuised by them self, which in this realme byndeth not ne gyueth no ryghte. And in lyke wyse it is if a man by his wyll bequeth to one an other mans hors, this bequest after the lawes of the realme is vtterly voyde, for no manne after the lawes of the realme, maye lawfully gyue or be­queth that is not his, and yet in the spi­rituall court, they iuge the bequeste to be good after this maner: that he to whom the bequeste is made shall haue the value of the horse, and surely ther­by they bynde them selfe to restitution, and so it is of the age of infantes and many other thynges, wherin the lawes do vary, wherof I wyl no farther speke at this tyme.

[Page] 20. ¶Also it is a greatte ouersyghte, that such thynges as at the begynning of the churche were refused by many spirituall men, bycause they thoughte they wolde lette and diminishe their de­uotions towarde god and gostely thin­ges, be nowe so vniuersally accepted and vsed by them that be of the same order and degree that they were, that re­fused them, but the particular hurtes and offences of consciences that haue folowed vpon that doinge, I wyll not touche at this tyme.

21. ¶Aso it is a great ouersight in ma­ny religious men, that they wylle pre­tende, that the wey of their religion is the surest way to saluation, and surely it wolde be prohibited, that no man v­pon great peyne shulde hereafter pre­sume to say so. 22. ¶Also this poynte hath done great hurte, that men wyll so lyghtly reporte as they do, that there be many heritikes, yea and they that be of that appetite to haue it so noised, vse this polici to say that heritikes wil first [Page 16] cause smal herisies to be sprōgē abrode, to the intent they maye after brynge in greatter, and by tho wordis (gretter he­resies) they meane that some men be of opiniō, that feith suffisith without good werkes, and that they wolde haue all thinges in cōmon, whiche if they coude bring about, it were in dede as they say a plain distruction of the cōmon welth, & they wyll affirme stiffely, that if they be suffred to continue, they wyll in con­clusion bring it about. And how peril­lous a speakynge that is, it is euident, for there can no man tell, whom it tou­cheth: and therfore it may lightly cause great gruge in the hartes of many people. And as the truth is, it hath done so alredy. And nowe as to those two arti­cles I wil say thus farre therin, that in good faith I knowe none that holdeth opinion, that good werkes be not ne­cessarie to saluacyon, specially in men that haue full vse of Reasone, ne yet that all thynges oughte to be in com­mon. ¶And I suppose verayly, [Page] that there is noted to be a greatter va­riance in tho poyntes and in dyuers o­ther also, then there is in dede, yf the very intent of the parties were perfyte­ly knowen, and if it be so, then is there a gretter defaut in thē that wyl so lightly iuge other to be heritikes, then there is in them that they note to holde those diuersities of opinions.

23. ¶Also what a great abusion is it in many spirituall men, as well religi­ous as other, whyche be specially or­deyned for the mayntenance of the ser­uice of god, that they kepe in their han­des pastures and groundes, which somtyme were townes or villages inhabi­ted with people, whiche righte moche maynteyned the seruice of god, and many of them kepeth in their handes also, parkes for fedynge of wylde beastes, that myght ryght well be made the fe­dynge of Christen people, and that in great nombre: and thus they that most specially ought to maynteyne the ho­nour of god, and increase his seruice, [Page 17] greatly decay it, distroy the people, we­ken the power of the kynge and of the realme, and delay the repayring of the falle of aungelles verye moche, and though some temporall men haue such pastures and parkes as welle as spiri­tuall men haue: yet the greatter defaut in the kepynge therof is in spiritualle menne, and therfore haue I spoken of theym fyrste.

24. ¶Also there gothe a common re­porte abrode amonge the people, that spirituall men be most commonly more harde and strayt in makyng of leasses, retynge of rentes, leuyenge of fynes, takynge of heriottes, allowynge of re­parations, alowyng of fees to offycers and suche other, then any lay men be. And as it is sayd, they take occasion to do so vnder pretence, that all that they do is for mayntenance of prayers, and of the seruice of god, soo that hit is in goddis quarell all that they doo. And therfore if they take any suite for any ryght that they clayme, or that any sute [Page] be taken ageynste them, they are moste commonlye more extreme and ferther froo a meane waye, thenne any laye menne be.

¶And this doth great hurt, & maketh the people to gruge ageynst them, and to esteme great parcialitie and couetyse in them, and so wyll it do as longe as it continueth, let them cloke it vnder the colour of goddis quarelle all that they can.

They muste nedes sue for their right, and also defende it. For els it myght happen, that they in proces of tyme shoulde haue but a lyttell to lyue with. And suche a reporte as thou spe­kest of maye lyghtely go abrode with­out cause, and therfore they maye not leese theyr ryghte for suche exclama­tions.

As the common prouerbe is trewe, that there is neuer smoke withoute somme fyre, so is hit trewe, that this reporte is not rysen withoute somme cause, thoughe pera­uenture the cause be not so greatte as the reporte is.

¶And trouthe it is as thou sayst, they must nedes few for theyr ryght, and al­so defende hit. And I agree well, that it is very harde also to knowe, where a manne is extreme in his suytes, and where he is extremely handeled, and therfore I trowe the beste remedy were for theym to dispose theym selfe in doubtefull thynges rather to be ouer sufferable.

25. ¶Also it hath ben a righte greatte ouersyghte in tyme paste, that the de­formitie of the bodye hathe bene more myslyked in theym that shoulde be admytted to be priestes, thanne the de­formytie of lyfe, or lacke of moralle vertues, or of lernynge. For yf he be personable, the lacke of suche thyn­ges, as hit is sayde, be soone passedde ouer, as thowghe the goodlynesse of the personne shoulde sounde to the honour of pryestehoode, but surelye hit is Mekenes and Charytie, that brynge to pryestes the veraye trewe honour.

[Page] 26. ¶Also if it were well consydered, there are fewe ceremonies of the chur­che, but that they sounde either to a preeminence or els to a profyte of priestes, and that hath caused some persones to fynd defaut at such ceremonies, whiche as farre as euer I coulde perceyue, be of them selfe right good as to the most parte, if they were handled with meke­nes in the mynysters, as they shuld be.

But I praye the what be those cerimonies, that they meane of?

They meane of crepynge to the crosse, and of the disciplins afore Easter, that the bryde muste be gyuen to the prieste, and that the brydegrome muste kysse the prieste, of the halowynge of can­delles, churches, ymages, and belles, and of the beryng of candelles on Candelmas day, of sensynge the mynisters at certayne feastes, of lyghtynge a can­dell before the Gospell, or els not to procede any farther, ne that none shall say Dominus vobiscum, but he be within holy orders, and of dyuers other moo [Page 19] then I can remembre nowe.

All these be good and commendable.

I thynke they be. And yet many men wene, that if there were no money of­fred at the crepyng to the crosse, ne mo­ney gyuen for halowynge of churches, images, and belles, that those ceremo­nies wolde laste but a whyle: and vn­doubtedly there be many that thynke, that there be sometyme diuers ceremo­nies at masse, that were rather brought vp for an honour to the ministers then of the sacramēt, or of the seruice of god. And therfore they say, that if lesse worl­dly pompe then is many tymes vsed a­boute the minystracyon of it, it wolde please our lord better, and be also more edifienge to the people then it is nowe.

27. ¶Also byshoppes that be canoni­sed haue a propre common appoynted vnto bysshoppes, and this Antyphon, Ecce sacerdos magnus, is often in their ser­uyce. And kynges that be canonysed haue moste commonly the common ap­propried to an abbot. And me thinketh [Page] that, that is not ordered, as it shoulde be. For as me semeth the clergy can not of congruence gyue no lesse honour to a kyng then to a byshop.

The cano­nisyng of sayntes, ne yet the seruice of y ^e church profiteth nothing the saintes. And therfore it forceth lyttell what an­typhan or commons they haue.

It is trewe as thou sayeste, but yet suche canonisations and the seruice ordeyned vpon it, be occasions to enco­rage theym that be of the same degree as they be: to desyre lyke vertue as they hadde that be soo canonysed, and sythe the vertue in princis is mooste necessa­rie to the people and to the holle com­mon welthe before all other: it semeth somewhat to be meruayled, why suche canonisations haue not ben so ordered, that they shulde encourage princis to vertue more specially than any other.

Pryncis glorifye theym selfe but lyttell, for the canonisation of other prynces, ne care but lyttelle for the seruyce appoynted to theym.

But yet somme spiritualle menne haue for theym selfe regarded suche thynges in tyme paste ryght mo­che, and me thynkethe alwaye, that they oughte to doo lykewyse for kyn­ges and pryncis, yea and that more thenne for theym selfe.

Well I perceyue nowe, that thy mea­nynge is, that spirituall menne haue in suche canonisations ben more diligent to canonise one of the same degree, that they be of, thanne any other, as bys­shoppes of byshoppes, priestes of pri­stes, and religious, of religious, and specially suche as be of the same regu­lar order as they be. And yet though it be soo, it is no defaute in theym, as me semeth, but rather a prayse: for it is an enuye for vertue, whiche is called pia inuidia, a meke enuye, and that is commendable.

Enuye in vertue is commendable, as thou sayste, but an enuye, who maye haue his ver­tue more knowen, or moore lawded [Page] and preysed then other, is not commen­dable. And it is verye lyke that suche thynges haue ben sene in some menne, concernyng such canonisations in time paste, but in princis no suche affection can be iudged. For commonly lesse ho­nour is gyuen to princis that be cano­nised, thenne to other, as it appereth of saynt Lucius that was the first kynge christened of the Brytons in this re­alme, and of saynt Ethelbert, that was the fyrste chrysten kynge of Englysshe men, whiche be but lyttel knowen, and haue but lyttell honour in comparison of other, and that me thynketh is not well ordred.

Well I perceyue thy mynde nowe in this mattier more perfitely then I dyd before, and nowe syth thou haste spoken before of cano­nisations of sayntes, I praye the lette me here thy mynde, to what intent they were fyrste ordeyned, and who hathe auctoritie to make theym.

One cause why they were ordeyned, was to encrease vertue in other, specially in [Page 21] theym that be of the same degre as they were, that be so canonised, as I haue sayd before, and it hath ben moste vsed for them that haue lyued a good and a blessed lyfe, aboue the common sorte of other good christen menne, to gyue the people god example in prayer, fastyng, and almes dede, in sufferynge of tribu­lations, and vexations for ryghtwise­nes pacientlye, or suche other. And yf it please our lorde to shew myracles for him, wherby it appereth that he hath accepted his good werkes, that is a thing moch necessary in such canonisations: An other cause of suche canonisation hath ben also to eschue scismes & variā ces among the people, when one wold worshyp one as a saynte, and an other wolde say he were none. And in the chapytre Extra de reliquijs. Ca. Audiuimus, It is sayd, that thoughe myracles be done, y ^t yet it is not lawfull to worshyp any as a saynct without auctoritie of the see of Rome. But what auctoritie the see of Rome hath to make suche a canonisa­tion [Page] I neuer harde. Howe be it fyue re­sons be made in the glose, De reliquijs et veneratione sanctorum. Ca. vnico, Gloriosus li­bro. 6. why the see of Rome ought to do it before all other.

¶Fyrste is, by cause the canonysacy­on of saynctes is one of the greatteste causes, that maye be pourposedde a­monge Chrysten people. The seconde is, that bycause myracles be ascrybed to the feythe. Therfore this questi­on sithe it is notably of the feithe, is to be referred to the see apostolyke. The thyrde, bicause it perteineth to the pope to open and declare the doutes of scrip­ture, therfore of stronger reasone he ought to open and declare the doubtes of holynesse. The fourthe is that hit oughte onely to belonge to the See of Rome, leeste by the symplicitie of ma­ny byshoppes, the people shoulde hap­pen to be deceyued. The fyfte, leest the saynctes canonysed shoulde be increa­sed to a nombre infinite. And soo ther­by deuocyon waxe colde, and holynesse [Page 22] lyttell sette by. These be the reasons of the sayde Glose, and as me semethe, they proue not the intente, that they be made for.

¶ And as to one of the sayde reasons it is apparant, that it dothe not. For it is euident inough, that one bysshoppe may sooner be deceyued than many by­shoppes: and all the resydue of the said reasons I commytte to the iudgement of the reders. And where in the same glose, it is sayd ferther, that if the chur­che erre in the canonisation of a saynt, that yet it is not to beleue, that hit er­reth. Surely if the churche erre therin in dede, it is meruayle, why hit maye not be beleued that it erreth, for the tru­the is alway to be beleued, though somtyme after the lawe of man, a man may be stopped to saye the truthe, as hit is in dyuers cases of estopelles, in the lawes of Englande, where a manne maye be estopped to saye, that he kno­weth verely is trew, but yet all though he be soo estopped to saye the trewthe, [Page] he may beleue therin as he lyste, and so reason wolde he shulde do of suche ca­nonisations. And therfore I thynke, that the meanynge of the sayd glose is, that if the churche vpon vntrue profes canonise one that is no sayncte in dede, that yet if a man wyll say, that he is no saynt, that he offendeth in that saying. For why, to say that he is no saynte, is is asmoche to say, as that he is in hell, for all that be in heuen or pourgatorie be saynctes. For they in purgatorie be sure of saluation, thoughe as somme holde opinion, they lacke the fruition of the godheed: and that therfore it is ryght good and charitable to pray that they may be brought to it.

¶And then sythe it is an offence to af­fyrme opinatiuely, that any person that is departed is in Helle, onles it be pro­ued by scripture that it is so, as it is of Cayme, Iudas, and some other, more stronger he offendeth, that wyll opina­tiuely saye, that he whome the churche hath canonised is in helle. But though [Page 23] it be agreed, that it is an offence to say that he that the churche hath canonised for a saynt, is no saynt, yet why it shuld be herisi to say he is no saint, sith it may be true as he saith, and as the said glose affirmeth y ^t it may be, I se no reson. For they them self that haue canonised him knowe not ne can not know assuredly, that he that is so canonised is in heuen, but that they haue a good truste that he is so. For the wytnesse maye deceyue them, as is said before: And accordyng to the same effecte it is sayde, Extra de senten. excommunicationis a nobis secundo, that the iugement of god is so knytte to the truthe, that it neuer deceyueth ne can not be deceyued, but the iugemēt of the church foloweth oft times the opinion of men, & so it may be vntrue, & deceiue, and also lightly be deceyued. And more ouer one of the principal intentes of suche canonisatiōs, is when any opinion riseth amonge the people, that suche a man is a saynt, and that some begyn to honour hym, and some haply saye they [Page] doo not welle to sette the mattier in suche an order, that there shall be no scismes thervppon amonge the peo­ple. But yf any opinion ryse amonge the people, that any is holye and bles­sed, and myracles be doone, than it is suffered, that the people maye honour theym, yf they be not prohybite by the superiours, not withstondynge the sayde Chapitre Audiuimus.

¶And vnder this maner kyng Henry the syxte, and mayster Iohn̄ Shorn̄ be suffered to be worshypped, which be not canonysed. And what a canonisation trowest thou had the apostels, and such other holy men, in the begynnynge of the churche?

I trowe none, but that the holy goste wytnessed in the hartes of all the people, that they were holy and blessed, and that suffised without any ferther canonisation.

Surely it is as thou sayste, but of some other newe sayntes, it hath not benne alwaye so, but whanne somme hath holden one veray holy, an other [Page 24] hath douted at it. And therfore to kepe the people in a good quyetnes in that behalfe. Canonysacyons haue benne made, not that the people shoulde be bounde therby to beleue their holynes, as to an artycle of the faythe, but to gyue theym occasyon the rather to a­gree therin in one, sythe so many great clerkes haue allowed the wytnesse in profe of his holynesse, as there hathe doone.

¶And therfore though it were admytted that he were an herityke, that wold obstinately holde opinyon, that the churche gathered to gether in the holye gooste maye erre in a thynge that is of the fayth, & that this is of the same ef­fect, for as moch as the canonisation of a sayncte perteyneth to the Faythe, by­cause that in the inquery of his fayth, and of his moralle vertues, and of his doynge myracles stondethe all the mattier: hit maye be aunswered, that the cases be not lyke, for two causes. [Page] First for that such a canonisation is not appoynted by the lawes to the holle clergie, ne to the generall counsell, but to the see of Rome onely, and vndoub­tedly that see may erre, deceyue and be deceyued. For that see maketh not the churche. Seconde in such a canonisati­on it suffiseth, if the wytnes affyrme, that he was a man of a true faith, without rehersynge all the articles of the faithe in speciall. And therfore the de­termination of the articles of the faith foloweth not thervppon: And that the churche maye not erre in thynges that be of the faithe, I take it to be vnder­stonde, where any great dout ryseth concernynge the faith. And that, that dout is commytted to the churche: wherby I vnderstonde mooste proprely the ge­nerall Counsayle, that they then may not erre. And therto I can ryghte well agree. For it is not to thynke, that our lorde that is the very truthe, wolde leue his people without a dewe meane how to come to knowlege of the truthe: for [Page 25] that wyll not leaue any one particular person in suche doubt, but that he may come to the knowledge of the truthe, yf he wyll fully put his trust in hym. And therfore it is sayd. 2. par. xx. Cum ignore­mus, quid facere debeamus, hoc solum residui habemus, vt oculi nostri ad te dirigantur, that is to say, Lorde when we be ignorant and wotte not what to do, this only remay­neth to vs for our comfort, that we lift our eien vp to the, as who saythe, that suffiseth vnto vs, so that we shall not erre. But in suche a canonisatyon, though all the hole clergie dyd it, they might erre. For it is but mater in dede: and more stronger these of Rome may erre therin.

This maner of reso­nynge is daungerous. For hit myghte lyghtely induce the people to sette at nought the order and decrees of theyr superiours.

As to that thou knowest well, that no man hath power to make lawes to bynd other, but he haue auctoritie therto of god. And yf it can be proued, that the clergie haue aucto­rite [Page] of god to canonise a saint, and that they be all heritikes, that beleue it not, it must be obeyed, our lorde forbeade it shulde be otherwyse. But if it can not be proued, that they haue that aucto­ritie by the lawe of god, but that they haue hit onely by a custome and suffe­raunce of Princis, thenne the reaso­nynge of hit shall doo good to cause the matter be knowen as it is.

And yet maye the sayntes that in tyme paste haue benne taken for holye and blessed, be styll so taken.

¶And thenne also shall hit not be ta­ken for herysye, that is none in dede: but the verye trewe intente of cano­nysations shalbe knowen.

¶And I suppose farther, that it were no greatte mattier, whether any were canonysed hereafter or not, yf the peo­ple wolde be quyete withoute it: and not be soo newe fangle to pylgryma­ges, as somme haue benne in tyme paste, and thenne to kepe the people in quietenesse and in good ordre in all [Page 26] thynges, kynges and princis are moste specyally bounden to before any other.

Pryncis canne not de­termyne, who hathe a ryghte faythe, and who hathe not, ne what is a My­racle, and what not.

To examyne all the partycular artycles of the faythe, is not necessarye in Canonysations, as I haue sayde before, and what is a mi­racle, and whatte not, Pryncis and theyr counsaylles maye haue knowe­ledge sufficiently: And therfore as me meth it pertayneth mooste specially to theym to order and appoynte suche ca­nonysacyons atte a generalle Coun­saylle, rather then to any other, takyng the clergye to them as theyr counsay­lours in that behalfe. But for as moch as Princis haue in tyme past lyttell regarded suche small matters, beyng oc­cupyed in more vrgent causes, for the common welthe, byshops and spiritual rulers haue loked vpon suche canonisations, whiche the people haue obeyed, [Page] and princis haue assented, and therin they haue done ryght well: and after by the long continuance and sufferance they haue claymed, that they of ryght and none but they ought to do it: and yet haue they not only claymed that to the hole clergie, but haue so handeled the matter, that it hath bene broughte onely to the see of Rome to do it. And thervpon pretence hath ben made, that who so euer that see wyll appoynt to be taken as holy and blessed, shall be so taken vpon the peyne of herisie, and to be taken as a scismatike deuyded froo god, and his church, and whether that hath ben a great ouersight, and a right great abusion or not, it is apparant.

If one prince auctorised one as a saint, yet perauenture an other prince wold not so accept hym, and so it might happen to make variances betwixt the countreyes, when one wolde take one as holy and blessed, and the other not.

And therfore it were moste con­uenient, that it shulde be done at a ge­nerall [Page 27] counsayle. And that princis and their ambassadours shoulde be therin iudges, takyng the spiritualtie as their counsaylours in that behalfe, as is said before.

If a man wolde say aby­dingly, that Peter and Iohn̄ were not holye, I suppose hit were herisie, why shuld it not be so likewise, when a saint is canonysed: and the people hathe of longe tyme accepted hym for holy and blessed, be herisie to say abidingly, that he were not holy ne blessed:

To saye that Peter and Iohn̄ or any other of the apostels were not holy and bles­sed, it were ageynst scripture? For our lorde said to the apostels, Luce. 22. I or­deyne to you as my father hath ordey­ned to me the kyngdom of heuen: that ye shall syt vpon my table in my kyng­dome, iugyng the .xii. tribus of Israel. No man therfore may say that the .xii. apostelles be not in heuen, but he saye ageynst scripture. And so the very scri­pture is a sufficiente canonisation for them. But it is apparant inough, that [Page] it is not so of other saintes, y ^t be not ca­nonised by scripture, though they haue by reson of their holy life & miracles bē accepted for saintes neuer so long. And therfore though a man, y ^t wold say, that he that were so canonised, were not worthy to be canonisid, did not wel, ne were not to be cōmended, bycause he went so far fro the cōmon opiniō of the people, & of that y ^e clergie hath approued, yet it shuld seme not to be herisy to say it.

what is it then to say, that a nother mā that is not canonised, is as good & as high in heuen, as Peter or Iohn̄?

Surely it were a foule presumption, & a great ouersight to saye it: but yet it were no heresie. For it denieth not but that Peter & Iohn̄ be in heuen: and I trust y ^t there ar none of y ^t opinion. And if any mā of malice, & to make a rumor amonges people, wyl report that there be certeyn persons of that opinion, they offended right greuousely therin. And surely suche reportes haue done great hurt, and wold be wel loked vpon here [Page 28] after. For there be many so light of cre­dence, that though the thing spoken be to the hurt of a right gret multitude of people, yet they wil anon report it ouer to other, not knowing y ^t it is true y ^t thei say .29. And now if thou wilt giue me y ^e hering, I wyl shew the a litil of my cō ceite, cōcerning the chap. Oīs utrius (que) se­xus, which is ex. de pen. & ramiss.

what thinkest thou of y ^t chaptre?

That it is not so resonable in one point as me thinketh it shuld be, & y ^t for this cause: euery person man & woman, after that he or she comith to the yeres of discreciō shal therby specially ones in the yere be cōfessed to theyr owne priest, wherby is vnderstande theyr owne Curate: howe be it, it is decreed after in the same cha­pitre, that if a man vppon a iuste cause wyll be confessed to an other prieste: he shal fyrst aske licēce of his owne prieste and opteyne it: for els the other prieste (as it is sayde there) maye nother loose hym nor bynde hym. But it is not ex­pressedly declared in the sayd chapitre, [Page] that yf a man vpon a iuste cause aske lycence of his propre priest to be shriuen in an other place, & he of malice or fro­wardnes refuseth to gyue hym licence, whether he may thervpon be shriuen at his liberte in an other place, & som haue sayde that in that case, the paryshen is bounde to go to the superiour, and that he may compelle the curate to gyue ly­cence. And some other haue sayde, that the superiour may in suche case giue li­cence him selfe. And many curates pre­tende the contrary, bycause the wordes of the sayd chapitre be so generall, that lycence must be opteyned. And therfore they say in al cases the paryshens must be shriuen of their propre curates, one­les the curat be content to gyue lycence to the contrary. And therfore for a more clere waye in conscience in this behalfe, many parysshens haue in ty­mes paste obteyned froo Rome, that they myghte chose theym an able con­fessour, and a greatte multitude of suche lycences haue bene pourchased, [Page 29] as it is well knowen, whiche hathe be right great charge to the people in ma­ny places. And yet curates haue holdē, that not withstondynge suche licences, religious men, bycause they be neyther elected by the people, ne appoynted by the byshoppe, to haue the execution of a pristes power ouer the peple, be none able confessours, and dyuers men haue ben of the same opinion. And therfore a ferther question hath ben moued ther vpon, that if any religious men haue opteyned a priuilege, that they may en­ioyne penaunce to the people, whether that then they be able confessours, so that they may laufully here the confes­sion of an other mans parysshen, that hath suche a pardon, as is afore reher­sed, and no lycence of his curate or not, and yet many curates haue sayde nay. And the glose vpon the same chapytre, Omnis vtrius (que) sexus, vpon these wordes, Alieno sacerdoti, is of that opinion, as to the reder wyll appere.

¶And by these diuersities of opinions [Page] haue risen great variances and striues bytwixte curates and theyr parishens, where most loue and charitie shuld be, to the right great peryl and daunger of the soules of many persons: & it is ve­ray lyke so to do as longe as it shall be suffered to contynue as it dothe. It se­meth therfore right expedient, that the rulers prouide a conuenyent remedye in this poynte, in as reasonable time as they can.

¶And ferthermore if spiritual reulers wolde now in this daungerous tyme, for the auoydyng of suche abusions, as be here before remembred, and of dy­uers other here omytted, wherby great gruges haue rysen in many parties of christendom, be dylygent callers on to haue a generall counsaill, not onely to auoyde suche abusions, but also to de­termyne, what power the clergie ought to haue, by the lawe of god, and what by custome or by graunte of princis, and what not. And that they wolde be be contented to renounce all suche auc­torite [Page 30] as the sayd counsail shuld thynke expedient to be renounsed: then it will appere, that they intende the honour of god, and welthe of the people. And if they wil indeuour them self to defer the general coūsayl, & resiste it to their po­wer, thē it is a lykelyhod, y ^t they wyl do what they can, to maynteyne the auc­toritie, power, & worldly honour y ^t they haue had in tyme paste, without aba­tynge of it. And if it be soo, all princis christened are bounde in conscience to loke on it: and not to ceasse, tylle they haue by one assente refourmed, that is amysse in that behalfe.

Perauen­ture they wolde be the lother to suche a reformation, for it shuld shew a defaute in their predecessors, in that they wolde pretende to haue a power, where they had none: and that they wold also suf­fer suche thinges, which now be taken for abusions.

That pretence and sufferāce was not begon by the bishops that nowe be, and if they had, yet they ought not to pōder it so moch, but that [Page] they shoulde refourme it if they coulde, accordyng to this counsaile, that saith, that that we haue vnaduisedly doone, let vs aduisedly reforme ageyne. And yf they wyll do soo, I thynke veryly, they shall haue more true honour in the hartes of the people, then they haue had in tyme past. And it is not for spi­rituall men moche to regarde such temporal honour. For they may more lightly offende in acceptynge of it, than temporal rulers. For they shulde euer stere the people by worde and by example to perfyte mekenes, and to dispisynge of all worldly pleasures: and such world­ly honours in spiritual men, breke that exaumple very moche. More ouer it is not verye lyke, that these grudges and murmurations that nowe be amonge christen mē wyl be appesed, but it be by a general counsayl, or by battayle. And battaylle can be no reasonable iuge in this case. For I here of no matter y ^t is now in variance, but that it may right wel be determined by way of counsaile. [Page 31] And the people as far as euer I coulde perceyue, are moche desyrous to here the determynation of the superiours therin, & redy to obey, and ar not incly­ned to any one opinion articuler or sin­guler affectiō so moch, but that they ar redy to be reformed: & desyre nothynge more then to knowe the truthe, and to haue perfit mekenes appere amonge y ^e clergi. Who may then in this case with out offence take the swerd, not assaying fyrst, whether all myghte be appeased with Loue and Charitie withoute the swerde? I trowe no man wyll say that any man may do it. And ferthermore it appereth in a boke that is called Libellus de moribus Turcarum, that there be among the turkes foure dyuers opinions, who shall be saued, wherof the fyrst opinion is of them that say, that no man maye be saued, but by the law of Mahumite. The seconde opinion is of theym, that saye the lawe of Mahumyte profiteth nothyng but the grace of god, the whi­che they say profiteth without lawe or [Page] merit. The .iii. opinion is of thē that say that euery mā shalbe saued by his me­rit without law or grace. The .iiii. is of them that say, y ^t euery mā may be saued in his own belefe, & that there is gyuen to euery natiō a law by god, in the whi­che he may be sauid. And that no law is better thā an other, how be it they that be of that opinion, be moche suspected amonge the Turkes, and be taken as scismatikes, and be greuousely puny­shed, when they be found. And therfore they kepe theym selfe secrete, and dare not shew their opinion openly: but they that be of the other three opinions, be all of great multitude and power, and dare well auowe their opynion. And thervppon ryseth many tymes greatte argumentes, variances, and debates, whiche sometymes can not be appesed without great battaylle. And therfore he that is strengest hath his waye pre­ferred for the tyme. And these opinions can neuer be clerely determined amōge them, bicause they lacke a grounde to [Page 32] brynge them to the knowledge of the truth therin: for the boke of their lawe, which they call the Alkaron, is so ful of lyes and vayne trifles, that it bringeth them alwey that loke vpō it, into more doutes then they were before. And therfore theyr priestes be alway sorye, when it shal be brought forth. For they know well, that the more it is loked vpon, the more the falsehode therof wyll appere. But we be all in an other case, for we haue suche a law, that is to say the law of Christ, that if we wyl with mekenes study howe we myght come to the true knowlege of it, we shall pleynly se in it the true conclusions of al thinges y ^t be necessarye to our saluation. And if our pristes wolde be loth to haue y ^e law of y ^e gospel knowen, it coude not be thought to be bicause the truth will not appere by it, for in dede as they knowe best, all truth apereth in it. And therfore if they shulde resiste to haue it come to perfite knowlege, it were lyke that they dydde it for feare that it shulde appere therby, [Page] howe far theyr maner of lyuyng nowe in these dayes varieth fro it, than that they shulde doubt that the trouth wold not appere by it: what then shuld moue vs to leue that trouthe, and tourne vs to the vncertayne chaunce of battaylle and warre? If we do so, we shewe our selfe by our dedes to folowe the Tur­kes and sarasyns rather then our mai­ster Christe, though we wolde with our wordes happely say nay. And if suche a generall counsayle were gathered, it is no doubte, but that they wolde holly agree, that the clargie shoulde haue all the power and auctoritie that was gy­uen to them of Christe. For they might not take it fro them if they wolde.

And ouer that it is not to suppose, but that they wold agre also: that the cler­gie shuld hold and enioy al suche auctoritie, libertie, & power, as hath in tyme past ben graunted to them by temporal princis, or that they haue by custome had possession of, so that it stande with the honour of god, encrece of the faith, [Page 33] and the tranquillitie of the people. And if they pretende to haue any auctoritee, that standeth not therwith, it were nei­ther good for them selfe, ne for none o­ther, that they shulde haue it any len­ger. And ferther more there is yet one thynge, that dothe as moche hurte, as I trowe any other thinge dothe.

What is that?

That there is an opinion amōge moche people, that many of the clergie, bothe spiritual rulers and other vnder them, haue taughte & preched in tymes paste diuers thinges, more specially for their owne syngular profite and honour, then for the honour of god or welthe of the soules of the pe­ple, & that yet they endeuour them selfe no more to ease the myndes of the peo­ple therin then they do. For neyther do they make it appere to the people, that they grudge therin without cause, and so offende god therby: ne yet refourme they not that that the people gruge at.

And nowe if any man wyll saye, that good indifferēcie wolde, that we shulde [Page] haue touched also defautes in the tem­poraltie more thenne we haue done, to that I wyll saye thus, that I am right farre deceyued, but this be true, that the worlde shall neuer come to a good peace and perfyte reformation, tyll the spiritualtie, eyther by their owne free wyll, or els by a good diligent callinge on of the temporaltie, be fyrste refour­med, and that then they in charitie and in a pure loue to god and to the people, putte to their handes to reforme suche thynges, as they thynke to be mysused by temporall men, whiche yf they do, it is not to doubte, but that they shall righte shortely brynge the matter to a good effecte. For it is no lyttel thynge, that spirituall men maye doo therin, if they wyll, and if they wyll in no wyse lay their handes to the matter, I think verily, that it wyll be harde to brynge the worlde to a good reformation: but that it shall abyde styll out of order, as it hath done in tyme paste.

If the partie in anye suite in the spiritual courte wyl appele, the order of his appeale is appoynted by the statute made an .xxv. R. Hen. viii. and the statute is, that if he appele fro the archebyshoppe, that he shall appele to the kynges maiestie in his chaunce­rye, and that vpon euery suche appele a commission shall be directed to suche persons, as the kynge shal name to de­termyne the cause without ferther ap­pele. And syth the kynge may appoynt commissioners to determyne the cause, I holde it no great doubte, but that the kynge hym selfe is the hyghe iudge vppon euery suche appeale.

yea but my meanynge is in suche suy­tes, where there is none appele taken: [Page] but that the spirituall iuges gyue sen­tence ageynst the partie, and appoynte him ꝑcase to do vnreasonable penance, whether he maye haue any remedye by the lawe of the realme.

What thynkest thou in that question?

That he hath no remedy by the kinges lawe. For if he obey not the sentence, he shalbe accursed. And if he stande accursed .xl. dayes, the kynge, vpon the Cer­tificat of the byshop, is boūde of iustice to awarde a writte, that is called a writ de excommunicato capiendo, and thervppon shall he lye in prison tyll he haue aswel satisfied the churche of the contempte, as of the wronge done to her. For the statute of Circumspecre agatis is, that corrections, whiche p̄lates make for deed­ly synne, as for fornicacion, auoutrie, & suche other: the spirituall iudge, if he procede to the correction of the synne, shall holde plee, not withstandyng the kynges prohibition. And by the statute of Sub qua forma, yf bodyly penaunce be enioyned, and the partie wyll freely re­deme [Page 35] it for money, he may doo it. And so it semeth, that the corrections of for­nication, auoutrie, and suche other, by the which terme (suche other) be vnderstande vserie, simony, yea and periury, and sklaunder in some cases, perteyne of very right to the prelates to correct. And though they assigne vnreasonable penaunce, yet I suppose there is no re­medy, but by appeale. And yf the par­tie lese the aduātage of his appele, then he hath put hym selfe without remedy. And ferthermore by the constitution ꝓ­uynciall, that is in the thyrde boke a­monge the constitutions, De immunitate ecclesie, which begynneth, Seculi principes, It appereth, that he that is in prison, for that he is excommunicate, oughte not to be delyuered tyll he haue made satisfaction as well to the churche, as to the partie: And so sythe the churche may assigne the satisfaction, it semeth that the churche is the high iudge.

I perceyue thy conceyt wel, but er that I answere the therin, I shall shewe the [Page] my conceyte in a nother thynge, that is to saye, that as I suppose, suche spi­rituall corrections as nowe be vsed for fornication, auoutrie, and suche other be not merely grounded vpon the lawe of god, but by the law of man, & in this realme they ben done by the clergy, by a custome of the realme, except only the ꝓces of excōmunication. And if the kinges courte had vsed to haue holden ple also of fornication, and auoutrie, and such other the clergy could not of right haue compleyned of hit. And I holde it no great doubte, but that the parlya­ment myghte yet ordeyne, that it shuld do so herafter. But parauenture it was thought at the begynnynge of that cu­stome, that it was more ease for the people, and lesse expences, and parauen­ture more conueniente to haue suche smalle matters sued in the ordinariis courte, then in the kynges courte: and therfore it was then so suffered to be. But if it shoulde happen to appere by experience, that it were as good or bet­ter [Page 36] to the kynges subiectes, to haue su­sue matters determined in his courtes, as in the ordinaries: It shoulde seme good to brynge suche corrections to the kynges courte. For tho synnes may be corrected there, as wel as in the spiritu­all courte. For hit is here to be noted, that although a man be enioyned in the spirituall court to do such compulsato­rie penaunce as is there comonly vsed, and he doth it: yet he muste after that be confessed of the same offence, & take penaunce of his gostely father. And so myght he do if he were fyrst corrected in the kinges court. Neuertheles I speke not this to thentent, that I wolde that suche suites shulde be broughte to the kynges courte, but that hit maye ap­pere, that prelates holde plee therof by the custome of the realme, and by the sufferaunce of the kynge and of his lawes: and not by the īmediate aucto­ritie of the lawe of god.

If they may holde plee of suche thyn­ges, it is all to one effecte, whether it be [Page] by the lawe of god, or by the lawe of man.

Nay for if they haue it on­ly by custome, it may with a cause be taken fro theym, and that maye happely cause them to take the better hede, how they order theym selfe in hit. And yf it were by the lawe of god: then it might in no wyse be altered.

¶And as to the correction of heresie, the kynge hath alwaye sene it doone in this realme: excepte the tyme that the statute that was made in the seconde yere of kyng Henry the .iiii. concerning heresies, stode in effecte. For if a man before that statute, had bene delyuered by the ordinaries to the laye courte for heresye, he myght not haue bene putte in execution withoute a wrytte fro the kynge, but with a wrytte fro the kyng, after the olde custome of the realme, he myghte then laufully haue bene put in execution. But yet as I take hit, the kyng was not then vpon euery request made for such a wryt, bounde forthwith to graunte it, but that he myghte take [Page 37] a respite to se the proces, & thervpon to graunte the wrytte or not to graunt it, as he sawe to stonde with iustyce: but as it semeth there were some that were not content, that the execution shulde be delayed in suche case tyll the kynges wrytte came, but that he so delyuered, shoulde forthwith be put in execution, and after the said statute of secundo of Henry the fourth was made, by what conueyance I can not fully telle, but it is not vnlyke, but that the clergy laboured it, wherby it was enacted, that in suche case the party so deliuered, shulde be put in execution, no mencion made that any suche wrytte shulde be sued for to the kyng: by whiche statute the par­ties so delyuered were sometyme put in execution without any suche wryt, and sometyme labour was made not with­standynge the sayde statute, to haue suche a wrytte to saue all thynges vp­right, and that the kynge shoulde take no displeasure. But that was not done for necessitie but of policie. For the sta­tute [Page] was in the lawe sufficient warrāte withoute wrytte. Vnder this maner diuers haue ben put in execution for heresie, whervpon haue rysen great mur­mours and grudges amonge the peo­ple, whan somme haue affirmed, that dyuers so putte in execution for heresy were no heritikes. Wherfore the sayde statute of Hen. the fourth was repelled by the statute in the .xxv. yere of kynge Henry the .viii. as reason and consci­ence wolde it shoulde: and thervpon it is ordeyned, that if he that is laufullye conuicte for herysy, refuse to abiure, or after abiuration fall in relaps, and be duly accused or presented and conuicte, that then he shalbe commytted to the laye power to be burned. &c. The kyn­ges writte, De heretico comburendo fyrste had and opteyned for the same. And so the olde lawe is therin reuyued. And as me semeth it appereth euidētly, that in that execution the kynge is iugge. For it can not be done without his writ, whiche neuertheles he is not alwaye [Page 38] bounde to graunte, when it is asked: but as vpon the sight of the proces and sentence, he shall thinke the sentence to stande with reason and conscience. For the statute is not, that the kynge shall graunte the writte, but that the partie shalbe burned, the kingis writ De here­tico comburendo fyrste had and opteyned for the same.

¶And therfore if the thinge that he is cōuicted for, be no heresie, as it may be, in some cases, after the clergie, bicause it is ageynste the cannons, and yet be none in dede, bycause tho cannons be ageynst the custome of the realme, and that in tēporall thynges: then may the kynge denye the writte. And then as to that treatise, that thou spekest of, cal­led Circumspecte agatis, I littel regarde it. For many men say, it is no statute, but that it hath been so named to be by the prelates: And so it is sayde in the nyn­tene yere of kinge Edwarde the thyrde, that it was. And hit is the more lyke to be soo, bycause the same Treatyse, [Page] in maner worde for worde is putte in a constitution prouincial, as a thyng ta­ken out of the kynges aunsweres: and in all the statute bokes, that go abrode among the lerners of the lawes of this realme, it appereth not, that that trea­tyse shoulde be taken oute of the kyn­ges aunsweres, as to the reders wylle appere. Neuertheles if it can be found amonge the kynges recordes, that it is a statute, I wylle take no exception to it, ne yet to Sub qua forma, nor Articuli cleri. For as me semeth it maketh no greatte matter to the question, that we be in hande with nowe, that is to saye, whe­ther be hygher iuge in spiritual corec­tions after the olde groundes of the lawe, the kynge or the clergye, whether they be statutes or not. For if a man be excommunicate, and so continewe .xl. days, the custome is, that he shal vpon the Certifycat of the byshop made ther­of to the kynge, be taken and put in pri­son, as thou hast sayd before. But then thou knowest well, that if the partye so [Page 39] beinge in prisone, make surmys to the kynge, that he hathe offered sufficiente caucion or gage, to satisfie the churche and they wyll not receyue it: that then the kynge shal commaunde the bishop, that he takynge an able caucyon shal se the partie deliuerd out of prison: and if he obey not the writte, than the kynge may delyuer the partie oute of prison. And ouer that (if he wyll) he maye, as men thinke, put the bishop to aunswere to the contempte. For disobeyinge his wrytte, and then shall the matter be de­termined in the kinges chauncerie, and there it shall comme in tryall, whether the gage were sufficiente or not.

But whether shall that sufficiencye be estemed as thou thynkest, accordynge to the penance assigned by the byshop, or accordynge to the offence?

It maye be, that there is no penaunce yet geuen, or parauenture he is accursed vppon a contempte for not apperance. But if the penance be gyuen, & he wyll not do it, wherfore he is accursed, and [Page] thervpon he is in prison vpon the wryt De excommunicato capiendo, and thervpon he offereth a gage: I thynke that there the sufficiencye of the gage shall be ta­ken, accordynge to the offence, for the penaunce maye be vnreasonable.

And yf the kynge take vppon hym to trye the greatnes or lyttelnesse of the offence by his lawes, than he taketh vpon hym the keys of the chur­che.

Naye, for that may be valued as welle by the kynges lawes, as it may by the bysshop, yf the partye wyll redeme his penaunce for money. But if the kynge wold for the refusing of his Caution take vpon him to make the absolution hym selfe: then myghte hit be sayde, he medled with the keyes. But sythe he dothe no more, but com­pelle the bysshoppe to make absolucy­on, accordynge to his lawes: It can not be sayde, that he medleth with the keys.

The proces of a contempte, that thou spekest of, hath not ben sene. And ouer that the prelates compleyne, [Page 40] that if the byshop refuse to take the caucion, that thenne an other wrytte shall go to the shyreffe to delyuer the partie out of prisone, as thou haste sayde be­fore: and in that wrytte they say, there is no mencyon made, that eyther the churche or the partie shall be satisfy­ed. And that is the princypalle cause, why the sayde Constitution, Seculi prin­cipes, was made:

Thoughe the proces of a contempte hath not ben sene in the same selfe case, yet the pro­ces of a contempte hathe benne sene in lyke cases, for disobeyinge the kynges wryttes, and that that is all vppon one lyke reason, shall be taken of one lyke lawe.

And to that other point, that thou hast moued, If the kynge vpon the refusell of the gage delyuer the ꝑtie out of pri­son, without satisfienge the partie, or the chyrche eyther: I praye the shewe me thy mynde, what wronge hath the churche therby?

It hath wronge for this cause. For the lawe of the [Page] churche is, that if a man be accursed, he shall neuer be assoylled, but that he shall fyrste make an othe, that he shall obey the commaundement of hym that shall assoyle hym, and that before he be assoyled he shall make amendis to the parties greued, if he be able, and if he be not able, than he shall make an othe, that he shall do it whan he is able. And by that wrytte, De caucione admittenda, he is delyuered out of prison, and neyther the churche ne the partie satisfied.

And though he be so, yet neither of thē hath wronge. For he is yet accursed as he was before, and may, er he be assoy­led, make suche othe as shall be resona­ble, but that othe that thou haste re­membred before is clerely agaynste the lawes of the realme. But yf the kynge in that case pretended, that when the partie were so delyuered out of pryson, that he shulde also be discharged of the execution, then had the clergie some co­lour to complaine, but nowe haue they none at all. And as to makyng amen­des [Page 41] to the partie, It standeth not with the custome of the realme, that the cler­gie shulde haue power to make any a­mendes to the partie, but only that they in certayne cases maye gyue penaunce for the synne. And therfore for beatyng of a clerke, the amendes for the trespas shall be made in the kynges court: and for the layenge of violente handes on the clerke, amendes shall be made in the spiritual courte, but yet they may assigne no peine pecuniarie, onles the partie frely wyl redeme his bodily penaūce with money without compulsion. And therfore there is one thynge in the sayd Treatise, called Circumspecte agatis, that maketh me the more to doute, whether it be a statute or not.

What is that?

It is recited there, that for fornication, auoutrie, and suche other, there is sometyme assigned by prelates bodily peyne, and somtyme pecuniarie peyne, & I knowe not one case, where prelates for correction of synne may as­signe pecuniarie peyne. And therfore I [Page] thynke verily, the parlyamente wolde neuer haue made that recytalle. And thus it appereth sufficientely, that by that deliuerye out of prison, after the refusinge of the said caution, the clergie hath no cause to say, that the churche or partie haue any wronge.

Welle admytte hit be therin, as thou sayste, yet it can nat be sayde, but that the custome of the realme is broken by it.

Why what callest thou the custome of the realme in such case?

That the kynge shall kepe in prysone suche as be excommunicate by the prelates, tyll they haue satisfied the churche as well of the contempt as of the wronge. And that the custome is suche, it appereth pleinly by the sayde writ De excōmun. cap. For by that writ the kyng cōmandeth the shireffe to iustifie hym that is excōmunicate by the body, tyll he haue satisfied the churche of the contempt & wronge, as is saide before. And whā he is deliuered without suche satisfaction, the writ is not obserued, ne [Page 42] yet the custome of the realme.

The writte is as thou sayste, but that is put into the writ rather to put the partie in a fere, & to enduce hym to submyt him the rather to his ordinarie, than it is to shew the plainnes of the lawe, or of the custome of the realme, and that appe­reth by the said writ de Caucione admitten. For by that writ the king noteth vnto y ^e bishop, y ^t if he refuse to take a resonable caucion of the ꝑtie, that he wyl in that case do y ^t to hym perteyneth to do. And so it appereth, that the kyng hath some other thing to do in the matter, then to kepe the partie styl in prison. And sure­ly if the custome were precisely, that the kynge shulde kepe the partie in prison, tyll he had satisfied the church, it were far vnresonable. For it may be, that the ordinarie iudged hit for symonye, vsu­rye, or periurye, or suche other, that was none: shoulde the kynge then be bounde to kepe the partie stylle in pri­sone, and to do penaunce, where he is not giltie, it semeth not reasonable.

If the kynge iudge, what is sy­mony and vsury, and what not: dothe he not take vpon hym to iudge vppon thinges mere spiritual, and so confun­deth the keyes of the churche?

Thou muste always consyder, that (as I haue sayde before) the lettynge oute of prisone of one that is excōmunicate, hurteth not the keys, for that he shalbe accursed styll, when he is out of prison, as he was fyrste: and all that the kyng dothe therin, is to see, whether he may with conscience kepe the party any len­ger in prison or not. And I trowe thou wylt agree, that yf the kynge be so in­structed, that he thinketh in his consci­ence, that it is no symony or vsuri, that the partie lyeth fore, that he maye not with conscience kepe hym any lenger in prison. And I praye the, let me knowe what thou thynkest therin.

Ve­rily thou haste brought me in doute of the matter, and therfore I praye the, shewe me, what is the veray lawe and custome of the realme, concernynge a [Page 43] man that is so in prisone vpon a writte de excommunicato capiendo, as the thinketh.

I take the custome and the lawe of the realme to be this, that he shall not be delyuered out of prisone, oneles the ordinarye certifye the kynge, that the imprisoned hath satisfied the chur­che, or elles that the partie offer a suffi­ciente Caucion to satisfie the churche, and the ordinarie refuseth hit: or elles that the kynge or his Chaunceler be so throughly enformed in the matter, that it appereth vnto them, that the partie maye not with iustice and conscience be kepte any lenger in prison: As if the sentence were gyuen for a thynge mere temporall, or that so playne and so suf­ficient witnesse be broughte in, that it moueth the kynge and his chaunceler, to beleue that the fyrste wytnesse were vntrue, or that the examinour entered the sayinge of the wytnesse otherwyse then the witnes testified.

And if there be suche witnes, yet their sayeng shall not be beleued: ne the kynge may [Page] not put in trial agayn, that is ones tri­ed after the order of the spiritual lawe:

To auoyde the excōication I agre well he maye not put the fyrste proufe in triall agayne, as thou sayest, but to order the kynges conscience, & to know whether he maye ryghtwysely kepe the partye any lenger in prison or not, he maye well examyne the truthe of the matter. For truth ruleth in conscience, what soo euer the order of the lawe be, and therfore if the appelle, in an appele of morder be founde gyltie, & the iudge of his owne knowelege knewe that he is not gyltie, he may not gyue iugemēt agaynste hym, but must rather resygne his office.

I agree well there, but I put case, that the appelle in thy case be founde gyltie by false verdite, & the iuge by examination of wytnesse, and by confessiō of the same iury also come to perfyt knowlege, that the appelle is not gilty, he may neuer the les in y ^t case geue iugement, and is bounde to do it, for he toke the examination against the [Page 44] order of the law, & therfore he must re­moue that knowlege, bicause he is com to it of his owne wronge, & ageinst the order of the lawe, & euen so it is in this case. The king ne yet his chanceler nei­ther ought not to haue newli exaīed the mater, seing that it was sufficiētly tried & proued before in the spiritual court, & therfore they must remoue & put away the conscience that they haue gotten by that vnlawfull examination, and be­ware that they doo not attempte soo farre ageynste the lawe an other tyme.

Though the iudge in the sayde case of appele dyd ageynst the lawe, to examyn new witnes, yet it is not like to this case. For in that case of appele, the verdite is of recorde in the same court, and it is giuen by auctorite of the same lawe, that he sitteth as iuge to iuge v­pon, & it is also tried after the order of the same law: so that vpon that matter ther is no ferther trial, wherfore I agre wel that he ought not to haue takē ther any newe examination, but in this case [Page] the sentence is giuen in an other court, and after another lawe, than the chauncellour is sette to iudge vppon. For he is sette to iudge after conscience, and not only after the order of the lawe spi­rituall nor temporall but in fewe cases, and also the proces of excommunicati­on is to punishe synne, and to mayn­teyne vertue, but what punysshement of synne, and mayntenaunce of vertue is it, if the kynge kepe hym that is no offender in prysone? And therfore I thynke the kynge or his chauncellour may well take a newe examination in the matter, and do therafter.

I fele thy conceyte well, but yet surely yf suche examination be vsed, hit wyll be thoughte by many, that the spirituall iurisdiction is therby greatly confounded, and that the kynge and his lawes do littel in fauour of it.

I se well thou styckest soore to the matter, and therfore to ease thy mynd somwhat therin I wyl moue the of two thynges.

What be they?

One is this [Page 45] if the custome were, that whan the ex­communicate is in prison, vppon the wrytte of Excommunicato capiendo, that he shoulde be kepte styll in prison, tylle he haue satisfied the churche, whether he be ryghtwisely excommunicate or not, were this a lawefull custome?

I thynke naye.

And this pretence that thou styckest so moche vpon, that there shoulde be no examination of the matter is of the same effect. The secōde is, if the parlyamente dyd put clerely a­way the wrytte of Excommunicato capiendo, and lefte the matter in suche case, that the ordinaries shulde iustifie al excom­municates by the censures of the chur­che, in the beste maner they coude with­out any helpe of the kynge or of his la­wes, shulde the parlyament therby do any wronge to the keys of the churche?

I thynke nay, for the power of the clergie concernynge suche excommuni­cations shulde neuer the les stond styll in her full strength. But yet it shoulde breake a good laudable custome of the [Page] realme that was fyrst begon in fauour of the clerge, & of the spiritual iurisdic­tion.

thou sayste euen truth, and my meanyng is not that I wolde haue that custome broken, but that it shulde appere, that thoughe hit were broken, that yet no mā had cause to complaine, as thoughe the lybertie of the churche were therby brokin, or the keis violate, wherfore me thinketh it more expedient for the clergie, to take this matter as it is, that is to saye, that the kynge and his lawes be as well contente to haue suche rebelles, as haue deserued punishment, & yet wyl not obey the keys of the church, correctio, as they be: but yet y ^t the kynge & his lawes shoulde therfore in any case be compelled, whether they wolde or not, to punishe an Innocente, it is not resonable: & thus it shuld seme to be the more indifferēt way, & more accordynge with iustice, that the mater be examined before the king, & that if it appere thervpon, that the partie offended not, that he be deliuerid out of prison, & [Page 46] y ^t the ordryng of the excōmunication be thervpon lefte to the conscience of the byshop, thē to charge the kinges conscience or his chauncellours eyther, with kepynge of hym in prison. And then to that thou hast said before, that if such excōmunications be taken, that it wyl be thought by many, that the kyng & his lawes do litel in fauour of the spiritual iurisdiction, I pray the be iuge therin thy self, whether it be moch or litel, that the kyng doth, whā he only vpon y ^e cer­tificat of the bishop taketh y ^e ꝑtie & ley­eth him in prison, & there kepith him, til he either satisfieth y ^e church, or els if he complaine, that he hath wronge, exami­neth the mater, he being in prison, how be it I think, y ^t the kīg in such case may if he se cause let the ꝑtie to bayl, hāging y ^e examination, though the shereffe by the reson of the statute of westm̄. i. may not do it. And nowe to our first matter, If the kynge wolde iudge vppon Si­mony and vsury, thynkest thou that he shulde offende the keys?

I thynke soo, for symonye and vsurye be prohibited by the lawe of god, and it belongeth to the clergi to declare, what is the lawe of god, and what not.

Though symonie and vsury be prohi­bite by the law of god, yet that proueth not, that princis may not therfore hold ple therof, for takyng away of an other mannes goodes, and also periurye be prohibyte by the lawe of god, and yet princes holde plee therof, and thoughe Symonye and vsurye be prohibite by the lawe of god, yet it is not declared by the lawe of god, what is symonie, and vsery and what not. And it semeth, that princis takyng to them spirituall men, as theyr counsailours, maye doo that well ynough. And if it were orde­red, that for symonye that the kynges courte shulde holde plee, I suppose it wolde doo moche good. For hit is not vnlyke, but that manye offende therin, and yet I here but of lyttell correction in that behalfe. And therfore thoughe the kynge iudged vppon symonie, and [Page 47] vserye, I suppose he offended not the keyes, thoughe happely as the lawe of his realme is nowe, he shulde offende his lawes.

Well I wyl take a re­spyte to be auysed, er that I shewe the my full mynde, in this matter, and I praye the lette me now fele thy conceyt, yf a manne be accursed, for that he wyl not obey a decre in a cause of matrimo­nie, and he is in prisone for it vpon the writte De excommunicato capiendo, and offereth a sufficient caucion, to obeye the churche, shall it be accepted?

yea as welle in that case, as in any o­other case, and hit shall be valued after the substance of hym that is in prison. And if he wyll yet when he is oute of prison, disobey the decree, and not ma­rye, wherby he forfaiteth his caucion, than he may vpon a new information, made to the kynge in his chancerie, be taken agayne by a newe writte, De ex­communicato capiendo fourmed speciallye vpon the case, and be kepte in prison tyl he obey the decree. And so he may be in [Page] all cases, where he is delyuered vpon a caucion, and kepeth not his promise.

Well I am content in this matter, but I pray the, whether may the kynge in any case denye a writ of Excommunicato capiendo, whan it is vp­pon the certificat of the byshoppe re­quyredde?

yea and that maye be proued thus. It apperethe in the regestre, that if the kynge at the certificat of the byshop, haue awarded forth a writ de Excommunic. ca. & after the kyng before the partie is takē, is enfor­med, that the partye appealed before the sentence, or that a prohibition was delyuered, and not withstandynge the iudge proceded, whervppon an atta­chement is hangynge before the kyng, or elles it appereth, that the plee per­teyneth clerely to the kynges courte: in al these cases the kynge shall graunte forthe a Supersedeas, commandynge that the partie shal not be arrested, and thervpon it foloweth, that if no wrytte be forthe, it may be denied, whan it is [Page 48] asked, and that if the partie be arested, before the Supersedeas came, that the kynge maye for the same causes dely­uer hym oute of prison vpon a speciall wrytte de excommunicato deliberando.

There is no writte de ex­communicato liberando, in the regestre, but where the byshop certifieth the kynge, that the parti hath satisfied the church.

All writtes that be grauntable by the law, can not be in the regestre, & the specyall matters proue, that he ought to be deliuered out of prison for y ^e time, and so a writte may be fourmed vppon the matter wel inough to delyuer hym: howe be it he shall remayne yet accur­sed vnder such maner, as he dyd before, & may be taken ageyne, if nede be, and that is in fauour of the spiritual iuris­diction. For I trow therin is no tēpo­rel lawe more fauorable to the spiritual iurisdictiō thē the lawes of this realme be, & yet if suche fauour be haply bro­ken somtyme, a defaute is founde ther­at by the clergie, as thoughe the holle [Page] liberte of the clergie were broken ther­by, where no lybertie is broken at all, & euen vpon suche a poynte was the sayd cōstitution Seculi principes, made. For the constitution in the begynning reciteth, that whenne suche excommunicate per­sons be vpon the sygnification of pre­lates accordynge to the custome of En­glande, taken and put in prisone, that then the prelates, bycause they refuse to take a gage, wherby the partye offreth to stande to the cōmaundmentis of the churche, and to obey the lawe, be com­maunded to delyuer the partie oute of prison, whiche as it is sayde, there the prelates maye not nor ought not to do, as thei say, before due satisfactiō made, and thervppon the sayde constytution sayth farther, that soo lay men vsurpe the keyes of power and counnynge, to the confoundynge of the iugement of the church, where the truth is, the chur­che hath gyuen no iudgement, that the partye shalbe commytted to prisone, for it hath no power so to do, but onelye to [Page 49] excommunicate the party for the sinne, and thervppon the kyng accordyng to his lawes hath delyuered the party out of prison, that he imprisoned him selfe: bycause the bysshoppe hath refused a resonable caucion. And yet it foloweth in the said constitution: Wherfore we ordeyne, that the excommunicate per­sones so taken in our prouince, and so goinge out of prisone agaynste the ly­berties and customes of the churche of Englande, shall be to theyr more con­fusion shewed excommunicate with ringynge of belles, and lyghtyng of can­delles. &c. And so that, that in the be­gynnynge of the sayde constitution is called the custome of Englande, as it is in dede, and is the very cōmon lawe of the realme, that a persone excōmu­nicate shall be layde in prysone by the kyng vpon the certificat of the byshop, is after called the libertie and custome of the churche of Englande: wherby the constitution meneth, that he y ^t goth so out of prisone, for that the byshoppe [Page] refuseth his caucion: and they that let hym out also, breken the libertie of the clergie of Englande, and vsurpeth the keys of power and cunninge, where in dede neyther theyr libertie, ne keys be touched: but the custome of the realme (wherby they clayme their libertie) is obserued. And if they coud proue the custome of the realme, wherby they claim y ^t libertie broken, yet they ought not cō ­plain, as though their libertie were on­ly brokē. For it is no more their libertie then it is the libertie of al the people of Englāde. For al the people of Englāde make the churche of Englāde, & it hur­teth al the people, and not only the clergie, to haue any one laudable custome of the realme broken. And yet the mea­nynge of that constitution is that that going out of prison hurteth the clergie only. And suche singularite hath done moche hurte, and wyll do, as longe as it contynueth.

¶And farthermore the cause why the said cōstitutiō sayth, that prelatis may [Page 50] not nor ought not deliuer the impriso­ned by the kinges writte De cautione ad­mittenda, the writte is, that thoughe as the kynge is informed, the partie hath offered to the byshop a sufficient gage, that he shall obeye the commandement of the churche, after the fourme of the lawe, and that the bishoppe refuseth to take hit. &c. The kynge by that terme Lawe, meneth the lawe of his realme: whiche is, that the partie excommen­ged, shall make amendis to the chur­che for the synne onely, and no satisfa­ction to the partie. For that perteyneth to the kynges lawe. And the lawe of the churche is, that satisfaction shal be made also to the partie. And for mayn­tenaunce of that satisfaction to be had by auctoritie of the spirituall lawe, the sayde Constitution was made to putte the partie in feare to goo out of prisone by the kynges writte.

And all this riseth vpon the variance of the lawes, wherby greatte grudges & expenses, yea and moche vnquietnes [Page] haue ensued, and wyl do as longe as it and other thynges lyke shall be suffred to contynue as they do nowe.

All suche expences and vnquyetnesses be well prouyded for, by reason of the said appele, that may be made into the kin­ges Chancerie. For it is not to thynke, but that the commissioners, that shalbe assigned by the kynge, wylle order the matier after iustice, and accordynge to the kynges lawes.

I truste they wyll, but yet it is not the ease of euerye pore mā, that may haply be wrongfully handeled in the spirituall courte, to sue forthe a commission vnder the kynges broode seale. And therfore if the olde forme of the kynges lawe be obserued therin, tbat is to saye, that if the partie that is accursed and imprisoned wylle offer a resonable caucion to the byshop, to obey the churche, accordynge to the kynges lawes, and he refuse it, that then the kynge, accordynge to the olde custome, shall let hym out of prison, tyl he can fynde the meanes to brynge the [Page 51] byshoppe to order hym, accordynge to the kynges law, & that all the proces of that constitution, wherby the partie for his so goinge out of prison shuld to his more confusion be shewed to be accur­sed with ryngynge of belles, and lygh­tynge of candelles, shuld for the cruel­of it be auoyded: I suppose veryly it wolde do moche good. And yet I pray the my frende Bysance, lette me knowe thy mynde in one thynge concernynge this mater.

What is that?

That if a man be accursed, and he is contented to make amendes, & to haue his absolution, but the byshoppe wyll not take any amendes of hym: or if he take amendes, or put hym to penance, whiche he fulfylleth, yet he wyll not as­soyle hym, ne he wylle not certifye the kynge, that he is accursed, soo that he myghte by helpe of the kynges lawes be dismyssed: but wylle suffre hym to stonde styll so accursed: what remedy hath the partie, as thou thynkest, to be discharged of that excommunication? [Page] And lyke wyse if a man be accursed for a thynge mere temporall, and wolde be discharged of it, and the bysshoppe wil not discharge hym, what remedye hath the party to be assoyled?

In thy laste case the partye maye haue a Premunire.

And thoughe he take it & recouer therby, yet he standeth styll accursed. And also the partye and iudge may be deed, and then the premunire is gone.

Well, I thynke in bothe thy cases, that if the excōmenge­mente be certified in to any of the kyn­ges courtes of recorde, that thē the king vpon the compleynte of the party may commaunde the byshop to assoyle him, if he wyl order him self according to the lawes of the realme, & if he wyll not, he shal ren in a contēpt against the kinge.

And if the byshop wil not certifie the excōmunicatiō in to none of the kinges courtes, ne vnto the kyng neither: what remedy hath the partie then, must he stonde alway accursed, and be pro­hibite from heryng of dyuyne seruice, & [Page 52] fro all company of feythfull people du­rynge his lyfe?

It is not to be thought that any bishop wyl deny absolution, where he ought to make it: & if he do, I pray the let me here thy conceyte, what remedy as thou thynkeste, shulde lye in the case?

Whether any bishop wil do so or not I cā not tel, but surely there is a great opinion amonge the people, that as the worlde hathe gone in tyme paste, if suche an excom­munication had touched the power of a bishop, or the libertie of the churche, or els that any greate man of the spiritu­altie, had borne displesure to the party, that he shuld haue right moch busines, and also pay well for it, ere he shoulde haue his absolution. But howe so euer it hath ben in tyme past, I beseche oure lorde that the matter maye be soo well loked to, that hit be not soo here­after, ne that vnresonable penaunce, ne vnreasonable money, for redeming of hit, nor for the costes of the suite, be not gyuen nor taken hereafter.

And as for a remedy for the partie to be assoyled, I thinke verily, that the king vpon the surmyse of the partye, maye aswell cōmande the ordinarie to make absolution, so the partie order hym ac­cordinge to the lawes, where the excō ­mengement is not certified of recorde, as where it is. For me thynkethe, that the reason is all one in both cases. For aswel shall he be prohibited fro diuyne seruice and communion in the one case as in the other. And if he haue any ac­tion to sewe and take it, the ordinarye myght els disable hym when he wolde. And lykewyse if the byshoppe assoylle hym, and when he hath soo done, wyll not make hym his letters of absolutiō: the kynge maye also cōmaunde hym to do hit, as me semeth.

There is no writte in the Regestre, that the king may write to the ordinarie to make ab­solucion, where the excōmunication is not certified of record into the kynges courte.

And if there be not, it for­ceth lytell. For if there be a lyke reason [Page 53] in an other case, as there is in that: the clerkes of the Chauncerie maye agree vpon a wryt. And yf the kynge myght not do, as I haue sayd, it might happē, that many of his subiectes shulde fayle of Iustice, and that the kynge coulde not helpe it. And therfore if the byshop wyll not obey the kynges wrytte, an at­tachement shall go agaynst hym to an­swere to the contempt: And then shall the mattier be determined after the or­der of the kynges lawes. And so it ap­pereth (as me semeth) that euen after the olde lawe & custome of the realme, the kinge is the high and supreme iuge in suche corrections, though the sayde statute of .xxv. H. viii. had neuer bene made: and that he may see his subiec­tis haue iustice in that behalfe, if they wyll calle for helpe vnto hym. But yf the partie in suche case, wyll submytte hym selfe vnto the ordinary, then by the parties assent, the ordinarie may make the fynall conclusion: so he offende not the kynges lawes in his doinge.

I knowe no man that sayth, but that saynt Tho­mas of Caunturbury is a blessed saynt in heuen: but parauenture there be some, that doute, what were the very articles, whervpon kyng Henry the second, and he varied. And happely some wyl say, that he dyd more ageinst the kynges prerogatiue, thā he ought to haue done, but though he dyd so in dede, yet that moueth me but lytel to thinke, but that he was and is a holy man, and a blessed saynt. For if he thought in his conscience, y ^t right­wisenes and truthe bounde hym to do that he dyd, as I suppose verily it dyd, it suffised to hym. For ignorance may excuse, but onely agaynste the lawe of god, & the lawe of reson. And the thin­ges that the kyng and he varied vpon: were vpon the customes of the realme, [Page 54] and the kynges prerogatyue: whiche sainct Thomas thought, was ageinste the libertie of the churche, wherin saint Thomas myght lightly be deceiued by ignorance: howe be it I thinke verily, that there is one thing, that derogateth and diminisheth greatly the very true honour, y ^t wold be giuen by many men to saint Thomas, if that were not.

What is that?

It is that some pri­stes exalt saint Thomas so high aboue other sayntes, & procure honour to him more thē cōmonly is done to any of the apostels, and yet secretely stele the ho­nour to them selfe, and thinke them self the more worthy honour for his dedes: and that hath caused some laye menne to haue lesse deuocion to hym thanne they wolde haue hadde. And thoughe they do not wel in that doyng: yet it is good to al pristes to loke vpon the matter. And somwhat to ease the myndes of the peple therin. And now wyl I say somwhat cōcerning y ^e outward honour done to sayncte Thomas before other [Page] sayntes, that I coulde neuer see cause reasonable, why all the commemorati­ons in the prouynce of Caunturburye shulde be saide more in his name, then in the name of saynt Augustyne the a­postell of Englande, whiche broughte the fayth fyrste in to this realme. For as farre as to manne appereth, sayncte Thomas had neuer knowen the christē fayth, ne had ben the holy doctryne of saynte Augustyne goinge before. And sythe he was archebyshoppe of Caun­turbury as wel as saint Thomas was, & the fyrst and chiefe of al other archbi­shops there: I can not se why the com­memorations shuld not be attribute to hym rather thenne to the other. And I thinke verily, that if it were so ordered to be, that a right greatte occasyon of mekenes in many spiritual men shulde folowe thervpon: and it is no doubte, but that saynct Thomas wolde be also ryght highly plesed therwith. And fer­thermore I can not se any conueniency why saynte Thomas shoulde haue his [Page 55] feast of his translation kept in so high solempnitie as it is accustomed to be: before other saynctis. And parauen­ture that poynte with suche other lyke, Iohn̄ Gerson mente to treate of in his treatise that he calleth in latine Declara­tio defectuum uirorum ecclesiasticorum, where he aduertseth rulers to loke, whether it be conuenient, that some new saintis shuld haue more solemnitie in the churche of god, then the auncient saynctes haue. And yet if the solemnitie to some of the apostols and to saynct Thomas be compared to gether, they be ryghte farre a sonder. And therfore why his Translation shulde be kepte holy day, and not the veray day of the deposition of saynt Augustine, or of saynt Ethel­bert, that was the fyrste kinge of Eng­lande, that was conuerted: or why the deposition of saint Edwarde kyng and confessour, whiche fallethe in the .xii. days, as the deposition of sainct Tho­mas dothe, shoulde not be had in more honour then it is, and sainct Thomas [Page] to haue so moche, I can nat telle what the very consideration shulde be of it. And verily I suppose, y ^t if the depositiō of saynte Ethelbert, and of saynt Ed­warde, and the translation of saynte Thomas were on the depositiō of saint Augustyne kepte holy daye to gether, and the holy daye of the translation of saynt Thomas to ceasse, and that prie­stes onely shoulde saye the seruyce of saynt Thomas on the day of his tran­slation, & the people not to be bound to here it, that it wold right highly plese saint Thomas, and cause many ꝑsons also to haue hym more in honour then they haue nowe. And here (as me se­meth) it is somewhat to be meruayled also, that al we englyshemen, as to the multitude of vs, canne report more of saint Denis of France, of saint Dauid of wales, saint Patrike of Irelande, & of saint Ninian cōmonly called sainte Tronion of Scotland, than we can of saint Augustine the apostle of Englād, y ^e first brought the faith in to Englāde, [Page 56] & yet though as me semeth it were cōueniēt, y ^t saint August. were more honorid then he is, neuertheles I mene not therfore, that seint Thomas shuld haue ani les true honor then he hath, but rather more. Ferthermore bicause there be di­uers articles put in bokes, which, as it is said, saint Tho. shuld holde, I haue intitled herafter some of thē, as I haue found thē writen in a right anciēt boke, & shal shew my conceit, how the lawe of this realme, & they agre together. But I wyl not expresly affirme, y ^t saint Tho. held thē in dede. For I neuer saw them as of a full auctoritie, nor I wote not where to find the ful auctorite of them: howbeit if his articles were pleinli & bi sufficiēt auctorite knowen, so y ^t it shuld not be laufull for no mā to adde no no­ther to thē ne to diminish any thing fro thē, it were wel done. For as they stond now in an vncertaintie, many persons take vpon thē to reporte many articles of hym, y ^t as I suppose, he neuer helde: & one of his articles, as I haue foūd it [Page] written in the sayd boke is this. If controuersie be vpon the presentment of a benefice betwene lay mē and clerkes, y ^e kynge pretended that it ought to be de­termyned in his courte: And it is said, that saincte Thomas shulde fynde de­fault at this article, as a thyng ageinst the libertie of the church. And surely it is not ageynst the liberte of the church but is an olde laudable custome of the realme, the kynges prerogatyue, and the right of his corowne. And if sainct Thomas resisted it, he resisted y ^e truth. Howe be it that prouethe not, but that he is yet neuer the les a right holy and blessed sainct, as I haue said before.

¶An other article is, that churches of the kinges gyfte may neuer be laufully gyuen without his assent. And this is also an olde prerogatiue to the kynge & his progenitours, and is as moch to saye, as that in benefices, that be of the kynges gyft, no time ne laches renneth to the kinge, but that the kinge shal as well present after the .vi. monethes as [Page 57] before. And yf sainct Thomas resisted that, he resysted the righte. For it is a laufull custome, and a lauful preroga­tiue. For why the kynge ne none other patron within this realme claime none other right in suche presentmentes, but after euery auoydance to present theyr clerke to the ordynarie. And yf he be able, than the ordinarie to receiue him: or els vppon a notice in some case, and in some case without notice, the patron at his peryll to present an other. And if the kynge present not, the ordinarie, tyl he present, may with the profites ther­of, appoynt one to serue the cure. But yf the kynge claymed also to haue the profytes of the benefice in the meane tyme, and he to se the cure serued hym selfe, tyll he presented, that were more doubte.

¶An nother article is this, that they that be accursed shall not fynd pledges to restore, nor be sworne to it: but only to fynde pleges to stande to the iudge­ment of the church for their absolution. [Page] And this article is also holden for lawe in this realme to this daye. For in case that the iuge spirituall wyl not assoyle the parti without restitution, where by the lawes of the realme he ought to do it: the kynge may vppon a contempte commaunde hym to doo it. And if he wyll nedely procede to compell restitu­tion, a prohibition lyth. And that is the very cause why an excōmengement cer­tified before the kynges iustice by the pope, was neuer alowed in this realm, bycause the kynge myght not write to Rome to make the absolution, in case y ^t by his lawes the ꝑtie ought to haue it.

¶Also an nother article is, that the churche shall not defende goodes that be forfayte.

¶Also that plees of det belonge to the kingis court, though an othe be made.

¶Also that the sonne of a bonde man shal not be made prest without licēce of the lorde. These three laste articles be holdē for law in this realm to this day. And yet it is saide, that saint Thomas [Page 58] resisted theym.

¶And as to the thyrde artycle of the said thre laste articles, the lawe is this, as I take it, that if the sonne of a bond man be made priest without the lordes licence, that yet he is a bondman as he was before, and the lorde may compell him to do him seruice, as to a priest be­longeth, before any other. And though the truth were that saint Thomas resi­sted these articles al that he coulde, and that he is yet neuertheles canonised as a saint, that proueth nothyng those ar­ticles to be vnlaufull. For yf he in his consciēce thought them vnlaufull, that suffiseth to hym, as I haue said before.

¶And more ouer if all the clergie of christendome wolde prohibite the saide articles, or any article of the law of this realme, y ^t is not against the law of god nor the law of reson: y ^t prohibitiō shuld not be of effect in this realme. And ther be dyuers other artycles in bokes & le­gendis, wherin he resisted y ^e lawe of the realme without cause, if it be as y ^e saide [Page] bokes doo testifie, whiche I remytte to the iudgement of theym that wyll take the peyne to rede them. And ouer that in the bokes of some pardoners, that haue gone about for saynt Thomas, be conteyned many and dyuers friuolous and vntrue thynges for procurynge of money: as it is of this article, that ne had saynt Thomas ben, no man shuld haue sette his chylde to scole, nor haue eaten in his house, pygge, gose, nor ca­pon, but he shulde haue payed a fyne to the kynge. And dyuers other thynges be thus imagyned, wherby the people be greattely illuded and deceyued, and saynt Thomas right highly displesed. For he loueth no vntruth, and yet they haue bene suffered to passe ouer frome yere to yere without correction: doste thou not thynke my frende Bysaunce, that suche thynges wolde be reformed?

Forsoth I thinke it right ex­pedient, that rulers and gouernours loke well vpon suche matters. But yet somme men wyll parauenture thynke, [Page 59] that it is not conuenient, for lay men to speake of suche highe thynges, as per­tayne to great clerkes and hygh lerned men. And I haue harde some men say my selfe, that before laye men spake of suche high matters, the worlde was in good peace and quietnes, and that sith they medled therwith, the worlde was neuer well, but ful of trouble, diuision, and stryfe. And therfore it wyll pera­uenture be better for the and me, to let these matters passe, tyll our lorde shall put the rulers in mynde to loke vpon them, and se theim refourmed, then to speke any more of them, and lyttyll ef­fecte or none to folowe of our spekyng.

The more that the rulers here of the gruges that be amonge the peo­ple, the more wyll they regarde theym, and wyll the rather sette to theyr assi­staunce to helpe to auoyde them, sythe they be as well to the high displeasure of almighty god, as to the great hurte of the common welth of all the people. And I thynke verilye, that a common [Page] welth shal neuer ryse, as longe as these gruges continue. And therfore I trust our spekyng shal not be clerely in vain, sithe some causis of the said grudges & diuisions may happly be put in mynde therby, whiche elles shoulde not haue ben remembrid. And ther be many pre­sidentes, by the which it appereth, that laye menne haue reasonned in ryghte hight matters. Fyrste when the statute of .xxv. of Edward the third, that is cal­led De aduocationibus, was made, was it not (as thou supposest) argued & reaso­ned, whether the parliament might set remedy in suche cases, where the pope made collatiōs or reseruatiōs to any benefices within this realm? And who resoned that matter, as thou thinkest, but the lordes temporal & the cōmons? verily none. For the lordes spirituall durst not therin resist the pope. And no more they durst when the questiō was asked in the parlyament, Anno .xvi. Rich. ii. whether the pope myghte translate a byshop in this realme without the kyn­ges [Page 60] assent, whervnto the bishops made a protestation, that it was not theyr in­tente to saye, but that the pope myghte make suche translacions by the lawes of the churche: but they sayde it was agaynst the kyng and his crowne, if he dyd it. And the comons sayd, that they wolde sticke with the kinges right in it vnto the deth. And the lordes temporal saide, that they wolde be with him with al their power. And it ts not to thynke, that these aunsweres were made so­denly without great reasonyng before. And who shoulde reasone hit, but the lordes temporalle and the commons, and specially they that were lerned in the lawes of the realme.

¶Also sithe it is recyted in the writ De excommunicato deliberando, that the king at the peticion of the bishop cōmāded the shyreff to iustifie suche a certein person by his body, as a mā excōmunicate & cō tēpning the keis of the church, til he sa­tisfied the church. &c. with diuers other thynges cōmonly vsed to be put into y ^e [Page] sayde writte, whiche be here omytted: are not they then that be lerned in the lawes of the realme, specially they that shall be of the kynges counsell, boundē to aduertise the king, what is a contemnynge of the keyes of the churche, and what not: so that he shulde not in such case do any thynge agaynst the keys of the churche? I trowe no man wyl say, but they be. For els the kynge shulde happely be enforced to gyue credence to spiritual men in maters concernyng their iurisdiction ageynst his owne. It is not therfore conuenient for any man to say, that lay men ought not to reson the power of the churche. For if it di­mynishe the right of the crowne, waste the substaunce of the realme, prohibite the laboure or lyuynge of the people, they may well speake of it. And also ar bounde to speake of it, specially they y ^t be lerned in the lawes of the realme.

¶And where thou sayste, that before that laye men spake of suche matters, the worlde was in good pease and qui­etnes: [Page 61] surelye if the people grudged, and durste not speake, ne wyste not to whome to speake or complayne: then was that peace that thou speakeste of, lyke to the peace that the prophet Isaie remembreth in his .xxi. chapter, where he sayeth, In pace amaritudo mea amarissima, That is to saye, In peace is my moste bitternes. For when the people wolde haue spoken, and durste not, that was greate grefe to them. And then if they be at lengthe enforced to speake, and trouble and strife rise by their speking: it is not longe of their speakynge, but of them that gyue them occasion so to murmour and grudge, and that wylle meyntein forth the old abusions, & not suffre them to be reformed.

Thou haste recyted many thinges in these ad­dicions, that thou thynkeste wolde be refourmed, and in some poyntes thou hast deuised howe they may be refour­med, but thou haste not done so in all: I pray the therfore let me here thy con­ceyte by what meanes (as the thinketh) [Page] suche thinges as thou hast not yet tou­ched the reformation of, might be reformed.

To trete fully of the remedies of such abusions, perteyneth most spe­cially vnto the rulers: howe be it one thyng encorageth me very moche to do that in me is to say somwhat in the ma­ter.

What is that that encorageth the to it?

That shal I shewe the fyrste with good wyll, and after I shal touche shortely somme of the remedies, and shall commyt the residue to them, that it moste specially perteyneth to, to loke vpon it.

Fyrste the thyng, that encouragethe me to speake of a refourmacyon betwyxt the clergie and the [Page 62] laye people, is for that as me semethe, if the matter be well and throughly lo­ked vpon, there is not so great variāce, ne diuersities of opinions betwixt thē, ne betwixte the clerkes and great ler­ned men, that seme to take parte ernest­ly in the matter on bothe partes, as is reported to be, specially in the matters that be moste of substaunce: and that may appere thus. The clergie preache and teache, that our lorde Iesu Christ, very god and man, is the very sauiour of the worlde, redemyng vs by his pas­sion. And the other do euen lyke wise, and take hym as the verye Medya­tour betwixt god and man, and none but hym.

¶The clergie also teche, and preche, that al men be boūd to beleue scripture, that is to say, the olde testament & the newe, and to folowe it as a thyng most necessary to our saluation. And y ^e other be euen of the same opiniō: & the diuer­site that is betwixt them therin stādeth specially in this poynte: The clergie [Page] pretende, that they onely ought to de­clare scripture to the laye menne, and that they oughte to folowe theyr tea­chynge and declaration therin, and not to expounde it them selfe, ne to haue it in theyr mother tongue: And manye laye men, and also some great clerkes holde the contrarie, and saye, that it is laufull, and also necessarie for lay men to haue scripture in the mother tonge, to the intente, that whenne they haue none to preche it to them, that they that can rede the mother tong, as many can whiche vnderstande no latin, may rede it to their own consolation and instruc­tiō, and to the instruction of other also. ¶They varie also sommetyme of the vnderstandynge of scripture, and howe it shall be taken: but that is moste spe­cially in such poyntes, as concerne the worldely honour, power, or rychesse of the clergye, as hit is of this questyon: whether it be laufull to the successours of the apostels and disciples of Christ, to haue possessiōs: but in thinges mere [Page 63] spirituall concernynge scripture, com­monly they do not varie.

¶And lykewyse there is no suche dy­uersite of opinions, as some men haue taken hit to be, betwyxte Feythe and good warkes. For bothe parties agree, that good warkes be necessarye vnto saluation: and the thynge that semeth to be as a variance betwixt them therin is onely vpon termes, and not in sub­stance, as thus: The one parte sayth, that feyth without good warkes is but a deed feyth, and profiteth not to salua­tion. And after as they meane, they saye trouth. For they meane of a naked feyth of a man, that hath neyther cha­rite nor good warkes: but that he hath feythe, and lyeth in deedly synne, and dyeth without repentance. In whiche case the feythe suffiseth not to hym, as they affirme it doth not: but they deny not, but that if suche a man in the later ende come to repentance, though it be euyn atte the laste poynte, but that he shal be saued, and that that repentance [Page] shalbe acceptable for hym afore god in place of the good warkes that he had not, and that his rewarde shalbe after the mochenesse or littelnesse of his con­trition and sorowe. And the other parte saythe, that feythe onely iustifieth be­fore god: and they also, after as they meane, saye trewely. For they calle hit no feyth, onlesse it haue good warkes. And therfore they styrre the people to good warkes all that they canne, that they maye haue a lyuely feythe: for they saye, that yf a man beleue all the articles of the feythe, and all that he is commaunded to beleue beside, and lyueth in deedly synne, that he hath no feythe. And soo it appereth, that these menne varye not in effecte in this mat­tier, but in termes: howe be it a littell variance there is betwixt them therin, vnder this maner: They that say, that feith iustifieth before god, wene y ^t many people haue such a truste in theyr good warkes, that they hope to be sauid only by theym. And surely if any be of that [Page 64] opinion, they be far deceyed. For none shalbe saued but through y ^e grace, mer­cy, and goodnesse of oure lorde. And therfore to gyue the people occasion, that they shal truste in grace more then in theyr good warkes, they extolle feith and grace aboue good warkes. And the other partie saythe, that there is none that trusteth onely in his good warkes. And therfore they saye, that it nedeth not to extolle faythe so moche as they do. But nowe admytte it be as they saye: yet me semethe, that yf any manne doubte, whether they doo soo or not, and therfore he instru­ctethe theym, that they oughte not to do soo, that hit is a good dede, and oughte charytablye to be accepted of all menne, and that they oughte not to be reproued for it.

¶Then ferther more manye haue re­ported, that there be somme menne of opinion, that all thynges ought to be in common, so that if oone lacked, he myght take it of his neighbour.

¶And of all other opinions, that opi­nion go the moste nighest to the distruc­tion of the common welthe. For it is a maynteyner of slouthe and idelnes, and a destroyer of all good labour.

And there be many other that sey, that there be none of that opinion: but they sey, that they haue harde many of this opinion, that in tyme of necessite of our neighbour, all thynges that we haue, oughte to be in common to hym, and we be then bounde in charite to mini­ster of our goodes vnto hym, after as his necessitie requyreth: but that any might take it them selfe, they say, they haue harde none of that opinion. And surely I thynke it is true as they say. And saint Augustin to that effect saith thus: He that seeth his brother in ne­cessite, and shytteth his helpe and com­forte from hym: howe abydeth the cha­rite of god in hym? And I beseche our lorde sende vs many of that opinion, that is to say, that we ought to com­municate of our goodes to our neigh­bours, [Page 65] that be in necessitie: and not to sende vs so moche as one of the other opinion, that is to say, that they might take it them selfe. And that if there be none of that opinion, that then there be none, that wyll report there is.

I perceyue wel, that thou thinkest, that there be not so great diuersities of opi­nions amonge the people, as are noted to be, if the very trewe intent of theyr myndes were throughly knowen: how be it somme causes of grudges thou a­greest that there are yet remaynynge. And therfore though the remedies ther of perteyne most specially to the rulers to trete vpon: yet as it semeth, it can do no hurt, if thou shewe thy mynde som­what therin.

Somewhat in a generalitie I wyll say with good wyll. And fyrst I thynke that it is right ex­pedient, that the lawes and iurisdicti­ons spiritual and temporal be throughly agreed to gether: for vpon the vari­enge of them this inconuenience folo­weth: that whan some occasion of va­riance [Page] happeneth to ryse betwixte two men, and they aske counsayle, one at the spirituall lawe, and the other at the temporal lawe, that bothe be informed that they haue right, and that causeth theym to stycke so soore to theyr titles, that they be farre fro any meane way, where if eyther of theym were instruc­ted, that the lawe were ageynste hym, as moste commonly the one of theym shoulde be, if they bothe asked coun­sayle at one lawe: that wold cause him that thought the lawe agaynst hym, to eschewe expences, and falle to agree­ment.

¶Also it is ryght expediente, that all constitutions prouincialle and legan­tines, as haue ben made in tyme paste, ageynste the lawes of the realme, and the kynges prerogatiue, where the la­wes of the realme oughte of righte to be folowed: and also all suche lawes as be ouer greuous to the people by extendynge ouer great multitude of ex­communications vpon theym: or that [Page 66] haue bene made more of singularitie, and in mayntenaunce of the spirituall iurisdiction then of charitie, shall be clerely reuoked and put away.

¶Also it semeth expedient, that none hereafter haue but onely one benefice with cure, by lycence nor otherwyse, and he to be resident vppon it, excepte suche as haue moo nowe at this tyme, and they to inioye theym, withoute ta­kyng any mo by permutation or other wise. And if any take mo benefices thē one, bothe to be voyde.

¶Also it semeth to stande with chari­tie, that lyke as there is appoynted cer­tayne collettis and orisons for infidels in lent, that there be a speciall collette for them all tymes of the yere bothe at mattens, masse, euynsonge, complin, Placebo and dirige: and lykewyse for the peace and tranquillitie of all chri­sten realmes, speciallye nowe in this daungerouse tyme.

¶Also that all parkes and pastures, that be in the handes of spiritual men, [Page] and be mete for tyllage, be by a certain tyme buylded and tourned into tyllage vpon a peyne. &c. And for as moche as moche tymbre wyll be spent aboute it, and tymbre is greatly wasted in many places, that it be diuised, howe tymbre and wodde maye be increased and pre­serued hereafter. And me thinketh se­ynge the kynges grace and his coun­sayle haue diuised so good a waye for nouryshynge of wodde in Irelande, as they haue done, that it were very well, that if they did likewise for this realm. ¶Also it semeth to be right expedient, that certayne articles, whereof parte shall be recited hereafter, be gathered to gether, and that preachers be com­maunded, that in euerye sermon, they shall moue the people to fulfylle them, as nygh as god shall gyue them grace: and suche other also as the parlyament shall thynke conuenient. And not to re­cyte euery article in euerye sermon, for it wolde somtyme be tedious, but part of theym, as they shall thynke mooste [Page 67] profytable for the audience. And one of the said articles, as it semeth, may be this, that the preacher diligentlye in­structe the people, what warkes beste please god: and also to instructe them, in what order they ought to be done.

And for a remembrance I shall brefely touche somewhat of that mattier, and commytte the ferther declaration ther­of to the preachers.

¶The worke that moste pleaseth our lorde, as I take for the laie people, is the releuynge and comfortynge of our neighboure, that hathe nede: and the greatter that his nede is, the greatter shall be our rewarde. And as prayer & contemplation be the highest warkyn­ges in the lyfe contemplatife: so is this dede of mercy to our neighbour, done in charite, the highest warke in the lyfe actiue. And therfore no man can come vnto it, but by great labour and dili­gence. For it is alway harde to atteyne to vertue, and the higher the vertue is, the more difficultie is in the atteynyng [Page] of hit: and the kyngedome of heuen muste be gotte with a violence. It is easye to buylde churches and monaste­ries, to gyue bokes and chalices to the seruice of god, if a mā haue wherwith: for laude and prayse, and a worldly contentation foloweth commonly vpon it: but in doinge dedes of charitie to our neighbour, there be so manye difficul­ties, that it maye anone discourage a man to contynewe in hit, but he doo it purely for god. Howe be hit I meane not that of gyuyng of almes to poore men that aske it by waye of almesse in the stretes: but I meane hit of cha­rytable dedes to be done to theym, that fyght with pouertye, and be ashamed to aske it: neuer the lesse the diffycul­tyes therof I wylle not expresse at this tyme.

¶Also it is a ryght great grace, that suche a desyre is come amonge the peo­ple, to haue pore men releued. But surely if it comme to this poynte hereafter, that spirituall menne wyll procure for [Page 68] theyr owne aduauntage, and lyttelle for poore menne: that desyre for poore menne wylle soone slake and vanysshe aweye hereafter, as hit hath doone in tyme paste.

¶And as to the goynge on pylgre­mage, me thynketh it may be accomp­ted and set in the lowest degre of good warkes: in so moche, that as I sup­pose, if a man in doinge suche pylgre­mage spend large money for his costes and offerynge, that if he wolde dispose moche lesse thenne that, at hoome a­monge his poore neighbours: that he shoulde more highely please our lorde therby, or our ladye, or other sayncte that he gothe to, and soner opteyne his iuste petitions therby, than by all his great expences in his pylgremage and his labour bothe. And though he gyue almes to some poore men by the weye: yet is he more bounden to his poore neyghboures at whome, and moore thanke shall he haue of god, yf he loke charitably vnto them.

¶Also it is right expedient, that prea­chers ofte instruct their audience, that the prayer of a good laye manne more pleseth god, then the prayer of an yuel prieste, or of an yuel religious manne. And to instructe them also, that vocall prayer is not the only thyng that pray­eth, though it be singularly good in it selfe: for the true and iust labour of the peple is also a right good prayer. How be it if they somtyme vse vocal prayer, when they maye come to it, they do the better. And therfore I thinke verilye, that if a good lay man pray, that suche an other man, or suche that percase be his benefactours, may be part takers of all his iuste and true labour, that it shall profite the other man more, then the vocalle prayer of many other that be not good.

¶Also it is expediēt, that they induce the people, al that they can, to do their good dedes here, ere they departe out of this worlde. And diligentlye to in­structe theym, that if they can be con­tente [Page 69] for the loue of god and of their neyghbour, to departe frely with a ly­tel portion of their goodes here in this lyfe, that they myght kepe styll if they wolde: they shall haue more rewarde of god for it, then they shall haue for a right great substance of goodes giuen for theym after their deth, when they canne not occupye theym, though they wolde.

¶Also that they styrre the people, to leaue the curiositie of burialles, that hath ben vsed in many places in tyme paste: for they be rather comfortes to the frendes that be on lyue, then any profite to the soules of theym that be departed. And yf the charge of suche pompe were tourned into dooles, to be sent to poore men home to theyr howses, I thynke it wolde please our lorde ve­rye moche.

Syth thou haste now at my desyre spoken of thynges concernyng abusi­ons, that as the thynkethe, wold be reformed, I pray the speke somwhat nowe of the secte of Macumite. For euer sithe the makyng of our first dialoge, I coud neuer forget, how gret a multitude of soules dayly perysshe therby.

And I wold gladly speake therof, if I thought y ^t we coude do any good in that behalfe. But surely tylle a peace be had amōge christen men, it bo­teth not to speke any more of y ^t matter. And ouer that I haue perceyued, that some mē be of the opinion, that it is not laufull for christen men to warre vpon the turkes, and to go about by compul­sion to bring them to the faith. For they say, as the truth is, that faith is fre and can not be compelled: and therfore they [Page 70] say, that Macumete him selfe, is discō ­mended by many writers, bycause that in the beginning of his sect he vsed vi­olence: And so I am somwhat in dout in that matter in my conceit, and wote not whether it be good to speke any ferther in the mattier or not.

As to the fyrst poynt that thou doubtest in, al truste is to be put in god, and he shall well helpe vs to the pece that we desire. And as to y ^t other poynt that thou hast moued, I lytel regard it. For I am wel assured, that if they them self that be of that opinion, considered al the mattier as it is, that they wolde shortly change their myndes therin. For sith the turkes haue many countreis, that christen mē haue good right to: it is no doute, but that it is laufull for christen princis to warre vpon them, & driue them out, as they myght do christen men, that were vsurpers. And also if infidelles inuade christen realmes, and by power wolde take them into their hādes, it is laufull for christen princis in the title of them y ^t [Page] so were lykely to be wrongfully put out of their countrey to resiste them, and to kepe the Christians in their right.

And all the infidels that be so inuaded, to take them as their ennemies, and to punyshe theym as ennemies, in suche maner as they shall thinke expedient, by dethe or otherwise. But then in these cases, if the christians preuayled, and than the infidels wolde be conuerted, and the christen men for fauour of the faith wold gyue them their lyues, were it nat good charite to do it? And if they wyl not be cōuerted: and then the chri­sten men put them to deth, for that they be enemies, is it not olso laufull? And yet hit can not be saide there, that they be put to dethe, bycause they wyll not beleue, but bycause they be ennemies, as I haue said before. And in this case standeth the countreyes of Constanty­noble, and of Ierusalem. For they were longe in the handes of christen men, er that they came into the handes eyther of the turkes, or of the Sarasins. And [Page 71] as for Constantynoble it is but of late yeres, that the turkes with power and without title toke the emperour and all the empier into their handes, and with greatte crueltie sawed the emperour a sonder in the myddes with a sawe of tree. And it is yet knowen amonge the christen men, that be there in captiuite, who is the very heire of blode vnto the the empire: why is it not then laufull to christen princis to restore hym ageyn to his inheritaunce, and to distroye all them that wyll resyst them? Neuer the les in some case a doubte myghte ryse, whether christen men might inuade in­fidelles in a countrey, whiche they had wrongefully taken into their handes: as if infydels wrongefully inuade an other countrey, that were also infidels, and that was neuer christened, and put the very owners out therof, whether it were lauful for christen princis to driue them out, and restore the fyrste infidels into their right agayn or not. And this me thinketh, maye be right well saide [Page] therin: that yf the people that so hathe inuaded, be the more cruell people then the firste were, wherby it is great peryl and danger vnto christen realmes, that lye nygh adioynynge vnto theym, that they wyll hereafter inuade them also, if they be suffered: that then it is laufull for christen princis to driue them out, in eschewyng of that dāgers, & to restore the first infidels agayne to their right. And thē if those first infidels for y ^e fauer y ^t they haue found in christen men wyll be conuerted to the faith, I suppose no mā wil say, but that it is wel done to accept them. But if they wold not in that case be cōuerted of their fre wil, I wyll wel agre, y ^t they must be suffrid to cōti­nue stil in their infidelitie, as they dyd before, tyl our lord shal of his goodnes cal thē to grace. And thus me thinkith it is but a litel doubt, but y ^t it is laufull for christē princis to make war ageinst all the infidels, that be inhabitātis in y ^e cities of Constantinoble & Ierusalem, and al the countreis ther about, that al [Page 72] any tyme were in the handes of chry­sten men, before they were in the hādes of the turkes, or of the Sarasins, and to put theym to dethe that wylle resyste them, as ennemies. And thus haue I nowe shewed the my conceyte concer­nynge that doute, whether it be laufull for christen men to warre vpon infidels or not. How be it if they coude without battayle be conuerted by preachinge or epistles without sheding of blode, that were surely the best way: But the tur­kes be now so far roted in malyce, that they haue made a lawe, that no man v­pon peyne of deth shall preche ageinste their lawes. Wherfore it semeth, that christē men may not now with cōsciēce, sende any preacher vnto them. And yf any precher of zele of martyrdom wold of his free wyl desyre to goo thyther: yet it were to me a great dout, whether hit were better for chrysten men to stop hym, if they coulde, so that he myghte do more good another way at hoome: and not to suffre hym wylfully to renne [Page] vnto his deth or not: Specially when there is no lykelyhode, that any good shall folowe vpon his goinge. For the preachynge to the turkes nowe in these dayes, is nothynge lyke to the preching to the gentyls in the begynnyng of the faithe. For then the gentyls wolde ma­ny tymes here it. And thervpon many tourned to the faith: and though som­tyme preachers were therfore putte to dethe, not withstandynge I agre well, that it was good charitie for other pre­chers to ieoparde to doo the same. For many tymes great increase of the faith folowed therby. But as to the Tur­kes nowe in these dayes, their malice is so greatte, that there is no likelihod that our prea­chers shuld be hard amonge them, as I haue sayde before.