M ^r Pimne. I did not thinke to haue spoken a­gaine to this bill, because I was willing to be­lieue that the forwardnes of this Committe would haue prevented me, but now I do hold my selfe bound to speake, and to speake in earnest.

In the first yeare of the King, and the second conventi­on, I first moued for the encrease and enlargement of poore Ministers Liuings; I shewed how necessary it was to be done, how shamefull it was, that it had beene so long neglected. This was also commended to the House by his Ma ^tv. There were then, as now, many ac­cusations on foote against scandalous Ministers. I was bold to tell the House, that there were scandalous Li­vings too which were much the cause of the other: Li­vings of fiue Markes, of fiue pounds a yeare, that men of worth and of parts would not be musled vp to such pit­tances. And that there were some places in England, which were scarce in Christendome, where God was litle better knowne then amongst Indians. I exampled it in the vtmost skirts of the North, where the prayers of the common people, are more like spels and charmes then deuotions; the same blindnesse and ignorance is in divers parts of Wales, which many of that Countrey doe both know and lament.

I declared also, that to plant good Ministers in good Livings, was the strongest and surest meanes to esta­blish true religion, that it would prevaile more against [Page 2] papistry then the making of new lawes, or executing of old. That it would counterworke courte-conscience and luckewarme accommodation. That though the cal­ling of Ministers bee neuer so glorious within, yet out­ward poverty will bring contempt vpon them, especi­ally amongst those, vvho measure men by the acre, and vveigh them by the pound, vvhich indeed is the grea­test part of men.

M ^r Pimne, I cannot but testifie how being in Ger­many, I vvas exceedingly scandalized to see the poore stipendiary Ministers of the reformed Churches there despised & neglected by reason of their poverty, being otherwise very graue and learned men. I am afraid that this is a part of the burthen of Germany, which ought to be a warning to vs.

I haue heard many obiections and difficulties even to impossibilities against this bill: to him that is vnwil­ling, there is ever a beare or a lion in the way. First let vs make our selues willing, then will the way bee easie and safe enough.

I haue observed, that vvee are alwayes very eager & fierce against papistry, against scandalous Ministers, and against things which are not much in our power; I should be glad to see that wee did delight as well in re­warding as in punishing, and in vndertaking matters within our owne reach, as this is absolutely vvithin our power. Our owne duties are next vs, other mens farther off: I doe not speake this, that I doe mislike the destroy­ing or putting downe of that which is ill, but then let vs bee as earnest to plant and build vp that vvhich is good in the roome of it; for vvhy should vve bee deso­late. The best and the gentlest vvay to dispell darkenes, is, to let in the light; vvee say that day breakes, but no man ever heard the noyse of it; God comes in the still voyce; let vs quietly mend our Candlestickes, and vve cannot vvant lights.

[Page 3] I am afraid this backwardnes of ours, vvill giue the adversary occasion to say, that vve chuse our religion, because it is the cheaper of the two; that vvee vvould vvillingly serue God vvith somewhat that would cost vs naught. Beleeue it M ^r Pimne, he that thinkes to saue any thing by his religion, but his soule, vvill bee a ter­rible looser in the end. Wee sow sparingly, that's the reason vvee reape so sparingly, and haue no more fruite. Mee thinkes whosoeuer hates papistry, should by the same rule hate covetousnes, for that's idolatry too. I never lik'd hot professions and cold actions. Such an heate is rather the heate of distemper and disease, then of life and saving health.

For scandalous Ministers, there is no man shall bee more forward to haue them severely punished, than I will be: when salt hath lost his savour, let it be cast out vpon the vnsavory place, the dunghill. But Sir, let vs deale with them, as God hath dealt with vs. God before he made man, made the world, an handsome place for him to dwell in; so let vs provide them convenient li­vings, and then punish them in Gods name, but till then scandalous liuings cannot but haue scandalous Mini­sters. It shall ever bee a rule to me, that where the Church and common-wealth are both of one religion, it is comely and decent, that the outward splendour of the Church, should hold a proportion, and participate with the prosperity of the temporall state: for vvhy should vve dwell in houses of Cedars, and suffer God to dwell in skinnes.

It was a glorious & religious worke of King Iames, (I speake it to his vnspeakeable honour, and to the praise of that Nation, who though their Countrey bee not so rich as ours, yet are they richer in their affecti­ons to Religion) within the space of one yeare he caused to be planted Churches through all Scotland, the High­land & the Borders, worth 30 ^l a yeare a peece, with a [Page 4] house and some glebe land belonging to them; which 30 a yeare, considering the cheapenes of the Countrey, and the modest fashion of Ministers liuing there, is worth double as much, as any vvhere vvithin an 100. miles of London. The printed Act and Commission vvhereby it was executed, I haue here in my hand, de­liuered to me by a noble Gent. of that nation, and a worthy member of this house Sir Francis Steward.

To conclude, though Christianity and Religion bee established generally throughout this kingdome, yet vntill it bee planted more particularly, I shall scarce thinke this a Christian Common-wealth. And seeing it hath beene moued and shewed in Parliament, it will lie heavy vpon Parliaments, vntill it be effected. Let vs doe something for God here of our owne; and no doubt God will blesse our proceedings in this place the better for ever hereafter. And for mine owne part, I will neuer giue ouer soliciting this cause as long as Parliaments and I liue together.

TO confirme the complaint of this worthy and re­ligious Knight: there followes the testimony of two excellent men of God, whose piety and zeale may moue some to consider of the matter more seri­ously, then they haue done hitherto, especially if they will please to reade vvhat is vvritten more at large in their sermons of this argument.

The Reverend and learned Bishop Iewell in his ser­mon before Queene Elizabeth on Psal. 69. 9. The zeale of thine house hath eaten me vp. saith thus. In England, since the Gospell hath beene receiued, the maintenance of learning hath beene decayed; and the lacke of lear­ning vvill be the decay of the Gospell. Loth I am to speake, yet the case so requireth, that it is needfull to be spoken: I trust I shall speake in the hearing of them that vvill consider it. Maintenance of learning vvhere­by [Page 5] an able and sufficient Ministry may growe and be e­stablished in all the Churches of this Realme, is to bee vvished for. The good estate of this noble Kingdome, the comfort of posterity, the stay of religion, the conti­nuing of the Gospell, the removing of darkenesse hang­eth vpon it. One asked sometimes how it vvas, that in Athens, so good and great a Citty, there vvere no Physitians: to vvhom this answere vvas made, because there are no revvards appointed for them that practise physicke. The same answere may bee made for our times; the cause vvhy the Church of God is so forsa­ken, is the vvant of zeale in them that should either for their courtesie, or for their ability be fosterers of lear­ning, and encrease the Livings, vvhere occasion is, and giue hope and comfort to learned men. What said I? encrease? nay the Livings and provisions which here­tofore vvere given, are taken avvay.

Haue patience, if any such bee here (as I vvell know there are) vvhom these things touch. Suffer mee to speake the trueth, it is Gods cause: the Livings of such, as are in the Ministery, are not in their hands, to vvhom they are due. All other labourers and artificers haue their hire encreased double as much as it was wont to be; onely the poore man that laboureth and sweateth in the vineyard of the Lord of hostes hath his hire a­bridged and abated.

I speake not of the Curates, but of the Parsonages & Vicarages, that is of the places, vvhich are the castles and towres of fence for the Lords temple. They sel­dome passe now adayes from the patron, if he bee no better than a gentleman, but either for the lease, or for present money. Such merchants are broken into the Church of God, a great deale more intollerable, then vvere they, vvhom Christ vvhipped and chased out of the Temple. Thus they that should bee carefull for Gods Church, that should be patrons to provide [Page 6] for the consciences of the people, and to place among them a learned minister, vvho might be able to preach the Word vnto them, out of season, and in season, and to fulfill his ministery, seeke their owne, and not which is Iesus Christs. They serue not Iesus Christ, but their belly. And this is done, not in one place, or in one countrey, but throughout England. A gentleman can­not keepe his house, vnlesse he haue a Parsonage or two in farme for his provision.

O mercifull God! vvhereto vvill this grow at last? if the misery which this plague vvorketh vvould reach but to one age, it vvere the more tolerable: but it vvill bee a plague to the posterity, it vvill bee the decay and desolation of Gods Church: young men vvhich are toward and learned see this, they see, that hee vvhich feedeth the flock hath least part of the milke; he which goeth a warfare, hath not halfe his vvages; therefore they are vveary and discouraged, they change their studies, some become prentises, some turne to phy­sicke, some to law, all shunne and flie the ministery. And besides, the hinderance that thus groweth by the vvic­ked dealing of patrons, by reason of the Impropriati­ons, the vicarages in many places, and in the properest market townes, are so simple, that no man can liue vp­on them, and therefore no man vvill take them. They vvere vvont to say, Beneficia sine cura; benefices without charge: but now may be said, Cura sine beneficio: charge or care without benefit.

But there be many vvhich can say, such as bee mini­sters in the Church should teach freely, vvithout hope of recompence, or hire for their labour; our preachers are no better than Peter and Paul, and the other A­postles. They are no better than the holy Prophets, vvho liued poorely, poverty is a commendable state. So say some in like devotion, as did Iudas. What needeth this waste? this might haue beene sold for much and gi­ven [Page 7] to the poore, not that hee cared for the poore, but because he was a theefe, and had the bagge, and bare that which was given. I doubt not there are many vvhich teach Christ for Christs sake, vvhich say in their soule, the Lord is my portion; vvho seeke you and not yours; I doubt not there are such.

But for the hope of posterity, I report mee to all you vvhich are Fathers and haue children, for vvhom you are carefull: although your selues haue a zeale and care for the house of God, yet vvill you breed them vp, keepe them at schoole, and at the Vniversity, vntill 30. or 40. yeares old, to your great charges, to the end, they may liue in glorious poverty, that they may liue poorely and naked like the Prophets and Apostles. Our posterities shall rue that ever such Fathers went before them, and chronicles shall report this contempt of learning, among the punishments and murraines, and and other plagues of God, they shall leaue it vvritten in vvhat time, and vnder vvhose raigne this vvas done.

In the meane time, what may be guessed of their meaning, who thus ruine and spoile the house of God, vvhich decay the provision thereof, & so basely esteeme the Ministers of his Gospell? they cannot say to God, the zeale of thine house hath eaten me vp: howsoever in other things they doe vvell; howsoever they seeme to rejoyce at the prosperity of Sion, and to seeke the safety and preservation of the Lords anointed: yet needs must it bee, that by these meanes forraine power, of which this Realme by the mercy of God, is happily deliuered, shall againe be brought in vpon vs. Such things shal be done vnto vs, as we before suffered in the times of popery; the truth of God shall bee taken a­way, the holy Scriptures burnt and consumed in fire, a marveilous darkenes and calamity must needs en­sue. &c.

The oxe that treadeth out the corne is musled, hee [Page 8] that goeth to warfare, receiueth not his vvages, the cry hereof goeth vp into the eares of the Lord of hostes; he vvill not abide so great contempt of his word and preachers, his owne name is thereby dishonoured: our Saviour saith: Luc. 10. hee that despiseth you, despiseth me. and Saint Paul, 1. Thess. 4. hee that despiseth these things, despiseth not man but God; and thinke vvee, that hee will suffer his holy name to bee despised? nay his wrath is already kindled, he hath already begunne his judgements, and therefore many places are left deso­late, there is none that can warne them of their sinne, none that can moue them to repentance, none that can preach vnto them forgiuenes through Christ none that can instruct them in the comfort of everlasting life.

For this cause you liue still in your sinnes, in adulte­ry, in covetousnes, and in pride, without any feeling of conscience, without any feare of God, thus we provoke God to anger; many walke (of whom we cannot thinke but with vveeping) they are the enemies of the Crosse of Christ; the name of God is blasphemed among them. &c. These words happily seeme sharpe and over ve­hement, but the darkenesse of our hearts against God, and the lacke of zeale for his house, inforce me to them: wee are almost fallen into the lowest pit; wee are left without zeale as sencelesse men, & as if vve had cleane forgotten our selues, as the Heathens which know not God: therefore vnlesse we repent, the kingdome of God shall bee taken away from vs: hee will send vpon this land a famine of the word. Ierusalem shall bee over­thrown and made an heape of stones, the man of Sinne, and they which haue not the loue of the trueth shall prevaile with many, and withdraw them from obedi­ence to the Prince; this noble Realme shall be subject to forraine nations; all this will the zeale of the Lord of hostes bring to passe.

I could haue spent this time in opening of some o­ther [Page 9] matter, but nothing, in my judgement, is more worthy your good consideration and speedy redresse, &c. Wherefore he concludes with a graue exhortati­on to her Majestie, as followeth.

O that Your Grace did behold the miserable disor­der of Gods Church, or that you might forsee the ca­lamities that vvill follow! It is a part of your king­dome, and such a part, as is the principall prop & stay of the rest: I will say to your Majesty, as Cyrillus some­times said to the godly Emperours, Theodosius and Va­lentinian, Ab ea quae erga Deum est pietate Reipub vestrae status pendet, The good state and vvelfare of your com­mon-weale hangeth vpon true godlines, you are our governour, your are the nurse of Gods Church, Wee may open this griefe before you; God knoweth if it may bee redressed it is runne so farre: But if it may bee redressed, there is no other besides your highnes, that can redresse it. I hope I speake truely that which I speake without flattery, that God hath indued your Grace with such measure of learning and knowledge as no other Christian Prince; He hath given you peace, happines, the loue and the hearts of your Subiects. Oh turne and employ these to the glory of God, that God may confirme in your Grace the thing which he hath begunne. To this end hath God placed Kings & Princes in their State, as David saith, that they serue the Lord, that they may see, and cause others to see to the furni­ture of the Church. The good Emperour Iustinian cared for this as much, as for his life. Constantine, The­odosius, and Valentinian, and other godly Princes called themselues vassales, the subjects and bond-servants of God. They remembred that God furnished them in their houses, and were not vnmindfull to furnish his house.

When Augustus had beautified Rome, with setting vp many faire buildings, hee said. inveni latoritiam, [Page 10] marmoream reliqui. I found it made of bricke, but I leaue it made of marble. Your Grace, when God sent you to your inheritance and the right of this Realme, found the Church in horrible confusion, and in respect of the true worship of God, a Church of bricke; or ra­ther, as Ezekiel saith, dawbed vp with vntempered morter. Your Grace hath already redressed the do­ctrine, now cast your eyes towards the Ministery, giue courage and countenance vnto learning that Gods house may bee serued: So shall you leaue a Church of God, and a testimony that the zeale of the Lords house hath eaten you vp.

Let vs haue care for the house of God, whosoever is not after this sort zealous, is a man of a double heart, wee may not halt betweene two opinions: If the Lord be God follow him, but if Baal be hee, then goe after him. Hee that is not with Christ is against him. Many talke of the Gospell, and glory in their knowledge, but it is neither talke nor knowledge, which shall saue them in that day: he that feareth the Lord, and serveth him with a pure heart, and may truely say, the zeale of thine house hath consumed me, hee shall be saued; if they shall not escape, which haue zeale without knowledge, what shall become of vs which haue knowledge without zeale.

And you whosoeuer you are, that haue decayed the Lords house, and abridged the provision and mainte­nance thereof, and see the miserable wracke of Gods Church, if there be any zeale of God in you, if you haue any fellowship of the spirit, if any compassion and mercy, if you loue God, if you desire the continuance of the Gospell; Oh remember you haue the patrimony due to them that should attend in the Lords house; you take vnto your selues wrongfully that which was not lotted for you. Giue vnto Caesar those things that be­long vnto Caesar, and vnto God the things which apper­taine [Page 11] vnto him, and make for the beauty and furniture of his house. Enrich your selues by lawfull meanes, and without the spoile and waste of Gods Church. Let not the Ministerie by your meanes bee despised. You en­riched them heretofore in the dayes of Popery, which mocked, and blinded, and deuoured you: spoyle not them now, that feed, and instruct and comfort you.

That reverend man of God M ^r Perkins in his sermon of the duties and dignities of the Ministery giueth 3. reasons of the rarenesse and scarcenesse of good Mini­sters. The first is, the contempt and disgrace of their calling by wicked and worldly men. 2. The difficulty of discharging the duties of their calling. The 3. reason is more peculiar to this age of the new Testament name­ly: Want of maintenance and preferment for men that la­bour in this calling. Men are flesh and blood, and in that respect must be allured and wonne to embrace this vo­cation by some arguments, which may perswade flesh & blood: the world hath in all ages bin negligēt herein, & therefore God in his law tooke such strict order for the maintenance of the Levites; but especially now vnder the Gospell, this calling is vnprovided for, when it deserues best of all to be rewarded: certainly it were a worthy Christian policy to propound good prefer­ments to this calling, that thereby men of the worthyest gifts might bee wonne with it; and the want thereof is the cause, why so many young men of speciall parts and greatest hope, turne to other vocations, and especially to to the Law, wherein at this day the greatest part of the finest wits of our Kingdome are imployed, and why? but because they haue all the meanes to rise; whereas the Ministery for the most part yeldeth nothing but a plaine way to beggerie: this is a great blemish in our Church, and surely I wish the Papists, those children of this world, were not wiser in their kinde in this point then the Church of God: the reformation hereof is a worke worth the [Page 12] labour of a Prince and people, and speciall care is to bee had in it, else it will not be reformed: for doubtlesse had not God himselfe in the Old Testament taken such straight order for the livings of the Levites, they had bin put to no lesse extremities then is the Ministery of this age, and this reason added to the other makes them perfect, and all put together make a reason infallible: for who will vndergoe so vile a contēpt, & vndertake so great a charge for no reward: and where there is so great con­tempt, so heavy a burthen, and so meane a reward, what marvell if a good minister be one of a thousand?

Rulers & Magistrates are hereby taught, if good Mini­sters be so scarce, to maintaine & increase, & do all good they can to the Schooles of the Prophets, to Vniversities, Colledges and Schooles of good learning, which are the Seminaries of the Ministery: herein the example of Samuel is very worthy to be followed, in whose dayes the Schooles of the Prophets flourished; & evē Saul him­selfe, though hee did much burt in Israel, yet when hee came to the Schooles of the Prophets, his heart relented, he could do thē no hurt, nay he put of his robes & pro­phecied amongst them. So should Christian Princes and Magistrates advance their Schooles, and see them both well maintained, and well stored; the reason is evident and forcible, a good minister is one of a thousand, if therefore they would haue the number encreased, let thē maintaine the Seminaries. And againe if Antichrist to vphold his kingdome (the kingdome of Satan,) be so carefull herein to erect Colledges and indow them with liuings to be Seminaries for his Synagogue, and vse so great meanes to sowe his tares in the hearts of young men, that so they may sow them in the hearts of the people abroad, shall not Christian Princes be as care­full, or rather much more zealous for the encreasing of the number of Godly Ministers? shall Baal haue his 400. Prophets and God haue his Elias alone? great [Page 13] shame must it be to Ahab, or to any King, whose king­dome is in that estate.

Adde herevnto that passage of an excelling and wor­thy knight, S ^r Henry Spelman, in his tract, de non teme­randis Ecclesiis.

Perhaps Lay Approprietaries thinke they may hold Parsonages & tithes by example of Colledges, Deanes and Chapters, Bishops of the land, and of diverse of our late kings and Princes. Before I speake to this point, I take it by protestation that I haue no heart to make apo­logie for it; For I wish that every man might drinke the water of his own Well, eate the milke of his own flock, and liue by the fruit of his owne vineyard: I meane that every member might attract no other nutriment, but that which is proper to it selfe: yet are they greatly de­ceiued that draw any juice of encouragement frō these examples, for all these are either the Seminaries of the Church, or the husbandmen of the Church, or the Fa­thers and nurses of the Church; all de familia Ecclesiae, and consequently belonging to the care of the Church, and ought therefore to be sustained by it. For Saint Paul sayth. Hee that provideth not for his owne and namely for them of his household, he denieth the faith; and is worse then an infidell. 1. Tim. 5. Therefore before the statute of suppression of Abbies, those that were not meerely Ecclesiasticall persons, yet if they were mixt, or had Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction, they might by the lawes of the land participate Ecclesiasticall livings, and tithes particularly. And this seemeth to take some ground out of the word of God. for the provinciall Levites (as I may tearme thē) whō David severed from the Temple, and placed abroad in the countrey to bee rulers of the people, in matters pertaining to God and the Kings busines, 1 Chron. 26. 30. 32. (That is spiritually and temporally) had their portion of tithes notwithstanding, as well as the other Levites that ministred in the Temple.

[Page 14] For a farewell; heare what Saint Augustine saith ho­mil. 48. ex lib. 50. homil. tom. 10. maiores nostri ideo co­piis omnibus abundabant quia Deo decimas dabant & Cae­sari censum reddebant. Our Auncesters did therefore a­bound in all riches because they did pay tithes vnto God, and tribute vnto Caesar: but now they are not wil­ling to doe either.