TRulie Cousen I am sorie that you should thus vpō a pievish conceite of yours bring your self into this vn-necessarie trouble for a trifle and matter of nothing as it were.

If you be sorie indeed as you pretende, then you might haue let me alone, and not haue caused your Apparitor to serue me (as he did) with Citation, for assure your selfe if you had not troubled me, I would never haue troubled my selfe about this trifle you speake of.

Nay I must not do so, I must deale indifferentlie you know, and not be partiall though you be my kinswo­man. [Page 3]Th'information being against you as well as others, & your name being presēted to me by the church Wardens with other women moe, if I should leaue you out and pro­ceed against them, I should not doe that which were fitting for my place and office, you know I am sworne to doe iustice.

Indeed your office and place afoordes much iustice, if it be well observed, as or­dinarie iustice as Billinsgate doeth loue & friendship for a boxe of th'eare: you are sworne you saye, and will not that oath of yours alow you to shew as much favor and kindnesse to your kinswoman in a trifle, as to a stranger that is no kinne to you in a matter of weight?

O I knowe where you are now, I thought where you would bee straight, I knew I should heare of it, you meane mistres A.B. But in good faith your Minister did her wrong, neither had he anie law to warrant [Page 4]him to doe that he vrged her vnto: I cōfesse she made a fault before she was maried, but the man you know made her amendes, and I doe not heare but that they liue orderly and well nowe: notwithstandinge all which your hotte spirited Minister (of spight & malice as itis thought) would haue put them both to open penance, if I had not stucke close to them.

Mercifull Christ, what neede anie wit­nesse to be produced against you, when your owne mouth doeth so apparantlie cōdemne you? The gentlewoman you confesse made a fault: and what was that fault but sim­ple Fornicatiō at the least? For the which our Minister would haue done that which belonged vnto him, if you would haue lett him, and that whiche I take it (by your leaue) the Booke of common Prayer it selfe doeth warrant him to doe, and you by your owne confession withstoode him in that good purpose of his. Nowe surely (my good [Page 5]man) this is a sinne amongest others that you must repent of, otherwise it wilbe woe with you. And I pray you tel me one thing: Mistres A. B. is a straunger to you and I am your kinswoman, her fault (cover it & shadow it as you will) was vncleannesse at the least, and that which you trouble mee for, is but a Ceremonie, & as your self con­fesse, a matter of no moment. What war­rant haue you then so stiflie to stande with her in her sinne, and to deale thus sharplie with me and others in a thing indifferent, or a matter of nothing?

Well gentle kinswoman, seeing you are so snappish & over-busying yourself in other folkes matters that apperteine not vnto you, I pray you let me heare now how handsomely you can answere for your selfe.

With whose matters did I medle I pray you, did not you first name mistresse A. B. your selfe?

All is one for that, I know you meant her when you said, that my [Page 6]oath might as well alow me to shew fauour to my kinswoman in a trifle, as to a strāger in a matter of weight.

Well be it so then: If your conscience did accuse you, looke you to that: But what haue you now to say to me, and what is the cause why you haue sent for me?

You neede not aske, you know it well enough I am sure. It is for your foolish nicenesse in this trifling mat­ter of Churching. And I pray you in good sadnesse, what reason haue you why you refuse to be Church­ed?

If it be as you say a trifle, the more to blame you to trouble your friends in so tri­fling a cause: But what doe you meane by Churching? Doe you meane that which is sett downe in the Booke?

Iust, I meane that and none other: For law will not warrant vs to presse you to any other?

No nor I thinke to that neither if it be well examined: But seeing you meane [Page 7]that kinde of Churching, The reason in a woord why I refuse it is this: Because I would be loth to shew my selfe either Iew or Papist.

Why will thankesgiuing to God after Childbirth make you a lew or a Papist?

No: Thankesgiuing will not: But this manner of thankesgiving that you would haue me to obserue is in trueth no thanks­giving at all, but a meere Iewish or Popish Purifying.

How doe you proove it to be no thankesgiuing?

By the verie first institution of it: For the Papistes that were the woorshipfull founders and devisers of it, and knew best their own meaning, did in the instituting of it, giue it this title: The Purification of Women after Childbirth. Where­by it is manifest that their very drift and intent in th'institution was only for a Pu­rification or Purging, and therefore no thankesgiving: Secondly, there is no one [Page 8]woord, matter or forme of thankesgiuing in the whole order of it as it is set downe in the booke: and therefore it can not be that it was ordayned for Thankesgivinge. though in the title thereof it be absurdlie so called.

But why doe you tearme it a Iew­ish or a Popish Purifying?

It is Iewish in 2 respectes: First in that the woman after she hath brought foorth a childe, is held vncleane (as vnder the Law) til such time as she hath shewed her­selfe in the Temple. Secondlie in that shee is commanded to offer her accustomed of­feringes, which is drawen & deriued from the Lamb and young Pigeons vnder the Law. Popish it is in 3 respectes: First in that it was instituted and devised by the Rapistes, apishlie imitating the Iewes, and bringing in one kinde of Purifying in steade of another. Secondly in that the wo­man is commaunded to come as neare the communion table, as in the time of popery they came to the high Altar. Lastlie, in re­gard [Page 9]of the Popish offeringe, to weete the Chrisome: For she is commaunded to of­fer th'accustomed offeringes, which is sete downe to be the Chrisome, In which re­gard you may as instlie trouble me and cal me hither for not offering the Chrisome, as for not being purifyed, and as good law you haue for th'one as th'other, whiche makes me thinke (as I sayed before) that you haue no law amongest you (but onelie the lawlesse law of your will and pleasure) to compell any woman to be Churched.

Well, wee will talke of that ano­ther time: but I would to God, yee foolish women would medle with that whiche belongs vnto you, and which is within the cōpasse of your owne element, and not take vppon you the decision and interpretation of the law, which ye vnderstād not: But I pray you tell me one thinge, what if the Church now would in­stitute and ordeyne a solemne Puri­fying of women, would you not bee [Page 10]purified?

No indeed would I not: For if I should, I should then either with the Iewes denie Christ to be come in the fleshe to giue an end to those shadowes which were figures of the purifying and washing away of our sinnes by his bloud, or els with the Papistes I must denie the bloudshead and sufferings of Christ to be th'only and alone sufficient purgation, of sinne, and therefore it is that we must haue a supply and be fart her hol­pen by some Church Ceremonie, or out­ward forme of Prayers out of the mouth of some shaveling or Priest.

Yea, but see now I pray you how you are deceyved in the heate of your zeale, looke in the booke there is no such matter of Purifying as you speake of, but onelie of Thankesgi­ving.

Trust me, you say true, I had almost for­gotten that it speaketh not a woord indeed of Purifying. But what a iugling & blea­ring of th'eis of the simple is this amongst [Page 11]you. May we not heerein say of you & your fellowes, that yee are the most perillous in­strumentes, and dangerous impostors that euer Sathan raysed vp for th'advance­ment and restoring againe of Poperie.

Why so I pray you my good kins­woman? What neede all this heate among friendes? You ima­gine belike you are amōg your scol­ding dames and pratling huswiues at home?

No good Maister Chauncelor, I know I thanke God where I am, neither am I any whitte distempered at all: But that whi­che I haue sayed, I may truly and lawful­lie say againe: In which regard well fare the Papistes say I, for they shall rise vp in iudgement against you, who like good fel­lowes yet in playne and open tearmes, euen bare faced, as it were, doe seeke to seduce vs, and to drawe vs to their false and ido­latrous woorship and service in Poperie, as namelie by their Masse, Mattens, Ensong, Purification, and other such like: [Page 12]Whereas you much more dangerously and euen vnder a maske or visard as it were, and not vnlike to him that transformeth him selfe into an Angell of light, doe goe about to drawe and allure vs to the selfe same falfe worship & service but by clean­lier names and honester titles, as to their Purification by the title and name of Thankesgiving, that is, to a Iewish Cere­monie that should be abolished, vnder the pretence & colour of a seruice of God that should be continued.

But I pray you Cousen Puritane, is there no difference betwixt that in Poperie and ours?

The difference (as I haue bene tolde by learned men) is onely in this, That theirs is in Latin & yours in Englissh, otherwise your proper Thankesgiuing which yee call Churching, is even the very same woord for woord (excepting only the Title, wher­in (as I saye) yee iuggle and walke a little more covertly then they) with their Puri­fication in Poperie. And can the changing [Page 13]of a name or title alter the thing it selfe or make it of another nature? If yee haue that gift and power amongst you, then yee may as well bring vs in the Masse vnder the name and title of a Communion: and so he that refuseth to goe to Masse, you may serue him with a Citatiō for not comming to the Communion, as in the like case you doe now by vs, you trouble vs and call vs in questiō for denying of Thankesgiuing, because we refuse to be Purified.

In good faith it is more thē I haue considered of, whether that in Po­perie be so neare agreeing to ours as you speak of, I beleeue your leaders haue mis-informed you. But how­soeuer it be and howsoeuer the Pa­pistes doe holde and account of it, it makes no great matter. The Church you see now holdeth it for no other then a meere Thankesgiuing, which is very deeent and requisite for euerie woman after so great deliuerance.

What if the Church should holde our [Page 14]Ladies Psalter to be Davids Psalter, or t'h Aue Marie for a Prayer? Should I therefore take and vse th'one for Davids Psalter, and th'other for a Prayer? I know the Lord is to be thanked for all his mercies, much more for so great a bles­sing as Childbirth is: But as we are to giue God thankes, and are therevnto tyed and bound in duetie and allegeance: so are we still to doe the same according to the plea­sure of him that commaundeth, and after the square and rule of his ordinance, and not after the preceptes, phansies and in­ventions of men, especiallie after the pre­scription of the man of Synne, that is after the manner of the superstitious and idola­trous Papistes.

But in faith doe you not thinke it a decent thing, that after so great an escape, and for the birth of a babe into the worlde, there should bee Thanksgiving? or would you haue no differeuce betwixt reasonable creatures and beastes, but that it [Page 15]should bee left indifferent to vn­rulie men to accompanie with their wives at their pleasures, without re­gard of their weaknes and vnclean­nesse?

You aske me wonderfull strange things: First whether it be not a decent thing v­pon such a deliuerance and the birth of a Babe into the worlde, there should not bee Thankefgiving. Secondlie, whether it should bee left indifferent for men to playe the beastes with their wives. Vnto which I aunswere, that the manner of Churching that you thus trouble vs for, doeth not re­dresse anie of these inconveniences: There being in it in trueth no maner of Thanks­giving at all, but onelie a speach or super­scription of a Thankesgiving. Socondlie, whereas by the law of God, to touch a wo­man in the time of her separation and vncleanesse, should bee death, what pu­nishment haue you prouided for this so great and haynous enormitie? Or howe doeth your Churching of women restraine [Page 16]a carnall and licentious appetite from exe­cuting his villenous and beastlie desire? Hath he not his full swindge and libertie to doe what he lift for all that? So that yee complaine of dangers, disorders, & incon­veniences, and yet leaue them still as you found them without cure or redresse, neuer caring for anie thing so your ydle Ceremo­nie may be kept.

A man may easelie smell (gentle Cousen) where you haue bene at schoole, yet I haue talked in my daies with some of your own crew, and they hau cheld it for a thing in­different at the least, and haue not bene halfe so hotte in it as you, and therefore for the loue I beare you, I would wishe you to haue some re­gard of modestie and womanhood. For yea faith when you haue saide and wrangled all that you can, it will be found a most decent thing.

A decent thing? What talke you of de­cencie? I tell you I hold it fer more then a [Page 17]Decent thing, even for a religious thing, and a part of my bounden duetie, if it bee (as you say) a Thankesgiving and a ser­vice of God. But I pray you tell me, because you wish me to haue a regard of modestie and womanhood, haue you had any infor­mation of any mis behaviour against me, either in my speach, company, or cariage of my selfe, if you haue, I shall thanke you as my good kinsman to admonish me of it.

By my trouth no: if it were not for this odde pievishnesse of yours, (whereby you trouble both your selfe and your friendes more then needs) I doe not (so God helpe me) knowe or heare any thinge by you that deserveth reproofe: and there­fore I am the willinger to pull you out of it if I could.

It were well indeed if a could be pulled from my faultes and you from your swea­ring. But when you friend or kinsman doeth any thing or refrayneth from anie thing of conscience (as I may safelie pro­test [Page 18]vnto you in this case I doe) Then the way and meanes to set me straight (if I be awry) is as I take it, the sacred Scripturs and woord of God, which if you bring, or any good reason out of it for proofe and warrant of this your Churching, woe and double woe to me if I subscribe not to it.

Whop: here is a revell and adoe with Scriptures, my kinswoman, you say, refrayneth of Conscience: But frō what doeth shee refrayne? forsooth from Thankesgiving to God: Is not this pretie stuffe, or is not this a warme Conscience?

Not so: Deceyue not your selfe, nor tri­umph not before the victorie, your kins­woman thanketh God she hath bene better taught then so. It is not from Thankesgi­uing to God (as you would haue it) that she refrayneth of Conscience, but onely from Iewish or Popish Purifying shadowed and varnished over with a colour or shewe of Thankesgiving. Thus shee tolde you once before, and this shee telleth you againe and [Page 19]againe. But I pray you let me aske you one thing.

What is that?

Is not Thankesgiving a service of God?

Yes: I hope no man doubtes of that.

What meane you then to harpe so much vpon Decencie and modestie? Would you haue vs serue God for Decēcie? Sometimes againe you saye that Churching is a thing indifferent, a trifle, and a matter of no­thing, and yet you will needes haue it to he a Thankesgiving to God. Howe can this hang togeather then, that one & the same thing should be a matter of Decēcie, of in­differencie, or a trifle of no moment, & yet a seruice of God? Is the seruice of God come to that passe amongst you now?

I meane onely the Ceremonie of it, as the Tyme, and th'Attyre, the companie of women, the offerings, and the feasting of neighbours and friendes, to be as thinges indifferent & of no moment: But not the pray­ers [Page 20]and thanksgiuing in the church, that I holde to bee holy and not in­different.

The trueth is yee holde yee can not tell what amongst you: The Ceremonie stickes so neare to your seruice, and your maner of seruice is so sutable and agreeing with your Ceremonie, that yee can not for your liues sever the one from th'other. Take away the Ceremonie, and there is no need of your seruice that I see. Therefore you may doe well in my conceite, to let them both hence­forward sleepe and surcease. For lett the poore woman that hath escaped, bee never so thankfull, or let her husband (as mai­ster of the familie) with his servantes and friends giue God thankes never so earnest­lie and Christianlie for that deliverance, (and that euen then when the remem­brance of that mercie of God is freashest in their memories) yet all this is nothinge to you, nor of no reckoning, vnlesse the Wo­man may haue her solemne Purification at her monethes end, with her white vayle [Page 21]or some such marke to be knowen by, which is a manifest signe that albeit yee pretende Thankesgiuing, yet in trueth yee care not for it, so your Popish custome and ceremo­nie of Purifying be not broken of.

Indeed it were fitt that ye women should appoint the service and cere­monies of the Church, and then be­like we should be wel & handsome­lie served. But I pray you tel me one thing: What if for the peace of the Church you should giue thankes af­ter this maner as in the book is pre­scribed, what discredite, daunger or inconvenience would ensue to you vpon that?

That is as much to say in good English, as what if for the peace of the Church one should make shew to giue thankes, when in deed and in trueth there is no Thankesgi­ving at all? were not that a plaine mock­ing of God, a kinde of Hypocrisie, & Pro­phaning of the name & Religion of God?

Trust me I thinke you are one of [Page 22]the perversest creatures that ever a­nie man dealt with. I speake not one woord of a shew of Thankesgiving, but of giving thankes in deede, and looke now whither you be runne.

Why did you not speake of giving thanks after the maner as the Booke prescribeth: and that as I haue often tolde you, is but a shew or shadow and no trueth. How am I perverse then, when I ground vppon your owne speaches? Now because you aske me what incōvenience would ensue if I should for anie respect vse this pretēded Than ks­giving, I will shew you (if you will giue me leaue, & that you will with patience heare me) how I shall therein offende many and sundrie wayes.

As how I pray you for my lear­ning?

Two wayes I haue alreadie told you of: as first that in so doeing, I should therein shewe my selfe either Iewish or Popish.

Secondlie, that in fayning to giue GOD thankes, and to vse no one woord tending [Page 23]to that ende, nor looking that way, is no­thing els but in a sort to mocke God to his face.

Well what then?

Thirdlie in so doeing, I shall not onely nourish, foster and maintayne manie su­perstitious and erroneous opinions in the heartes of th'ignorant, and so strengthen the simple in their false woorship, but also fall into divers and sundrie most daunge­rous absurdities: as namelie, first of all that a woman after childbirth is vncleane and vnholy, cōtrary to th'Apostles wordes, who teacheth vs that a Woman is sancti­fied by bearing of children. For what may Purifying I pray you presuppose, but some former vncleannesse? Likewise, that a woman is helde for the time as an excom­municate person, and therefore most so­lemnly be receyued agayn into the church. For what may Churching presuppose but some former excluding, shutting out and cutting off?

These then I perceyue are some [Page 24]of your supposed absurdities, haue you any more of them?

Well iest as you please, I haue more of them then you or any man of your place cā with anie conscience answere or avoyde.

Let vs heare them thē I pray you, and dispatch that we may know all our payne at once.

Why then I say further that in yeelding to this Churchinge of yours, I should by myne example condemne the primitiue Church, and all the reformed Churches in other Countreyes at this day, who vse no such churchings: and withall iustifie and approoue the papists, and all other supersti­tious churches that ioine with them in the vse of it.

A great piece of woorke, as if it were such a matter to varie and dis­sent a little from Calvin or Beza, I tell you they may as well learne of vs, as we of them.

Who spake of Calvin or Beza? I pro­mise you I did not so much as think of thē. [Page 25]I spake onely of the Primitiue and Refor­med churches. And albeit those men you speak of were worthie instruments in Gods church, & such as we haue cause to thank God for: yet the Lord I know might haue spread foorth the light of his Gospell, and reformed his Church, had they neuer li­ved. But this is the manner of you all, you broode of Chauncelors & your Associates, when you can saye nothing, then you fall straight a girding & railing on Calvin or Beza, or some such worthie man.

Gentle Cousen, be not angrie, I meane you no hurt yea faith. What other inconveniences or absurdities doe you finde in this Churchinge, speake your minde freelie, for I am even bent to heare you.

I should therein either my self abuse, or yeeld to th' abusing of the woord of God.

How so I pray you?

I meane concerning the Psalme that is there appointed for that purpose, vz. the 121 Psalme, which being left to the chuch [Page 26]by the holy Ghost for comfort and conso­lation in time of distresse, to applie it to Thankesgiving, contrarie to the purpose and meaning of the holy Ghost, must needes (as I say) be a playne abusing and prophaning of the woord. And of it bee well considered of, it will be founde to bee more fitte a great deale for a woman in the time of her travel, agonie & distresse, then afterward when she is of strength & in good estate.

Yea faith yea faith gossippe, I doubt not if any of your precise crew had sett down that Psalme for that purpose, but you would haue liked of it well enough for all the cavills and quarrells you make a­gainst it now.

Thinke you so S ^r: Well I see that men of your occupation may easilie bee decey­ved. But to deale plainlie and not to dis­semble with you, one especiall reason a­mong others that draweth mee to dislike and refuse this Iuel of yours (I meane your [Page 27]Churching) is, that in yeelding therevn­to, I should iustifie you and your fellowes in your crooked and vnconscionable pro­ceedings, that is in vrging and pressing your owne Traditions before the Com­maundements of God.

And bee these the pretie reasons that mooue you thus to dislike the custome and reverent vsage of our Church? Now surely it sheweth the waywardnes of your conceyte, in that you preferre your owne will before the peace of the Church, which ought to be dearer vnto you then thus to stand out & endaunger your selfe about such trifles, & mat­ters of nothing, that are not woorth a rush to speake of.

No are? Then I say still, The more shame for you to keepe such a revell and a­doe, for such things as your selfe confesse are not woorth whisteling: and therin you shew your selues to bee right Scribes and Pharisees, that is, Hypocrites, tithing [Page 28]mint and cumine, and leaving iudgment and mercy, troubling the children of God and those that ye cānot tuftlie charge with anie crime, for not obseruing your Tradi­tions & beggerly Ceremonies, as Crossing, Kneeling, Churching, &c. and in the meane season suffring the breakers of Gods holy commandements (aske Mistres A. B. els, & a nombre of knowne Papistes, Athe­istes, Charmers, Blasphemers, Prophaners of the Saboth, and such like) to goe scotfree and vnpunished, as if your whole delight, careand watchfulnesse were only for th'ob seruation of these bables and fruitlesse Co­remonies of yours.

O M ^rs A. B. I perceiue is a great more in your eye, wel I pray God that you of the holy brotherhood that make it so daintie, do (the best of you) liue no worse then she doeth now, what soever she hath bene heretofore.

Amen say I, and better to. Indeed to doe her no wrong as I heare no great exclama­tion of her, for any notorious crime, so on [Page 29]th'other side, wee that are her neighbours, may safely acquite her of any great cōmen­dation that shee hath for any holy and reli­gious course thereby to draw on others by her example. Therfore praise her as much as you list, when you haue done the best you can, shee will bee founde but an ordinarie woman: and the special thing that you can cōmend in her (for any thing I see) is this: that she is as quietly chuchedwhē her time comes, as any of the rest of her neighbours.

I would to God I could say so by you to Cousen, condition I had gi­uen twentie pound yea faith, & then you might haue eased vs of much of this trouble.

You may doe one day, when you cā bring me any sufficient reason and warrant for it out of the Scripture. And if you will but giue vs a tolleration and dispensation for it till then, we will aske no more.

You say well, I know your mea­ning. But in good truth I muze that the Peace of the Church doeth no more mooue you.

You muze you say, that the peace of the Church doeth uo more mooue me: And I muze likewise what you would haue saide if you had lived in the dayes of our Savi. Christ, who defended his Disciples against the Pharisees in a verier trifle & of farre lesse moment then this our refusall of your Churching.

Where I pray you, shew me that for my learning.

What say you to the refusall of washing of handes at meate? Is not that as small a matter as may be? And if you had bene by at that time, when our Savior so boldly defended his Disciples therein, it is like e­nough you would haue coumpted him for a verie Trifler, or some busie Troubler of the Peace of the Church, that would keepe such a doe for nothing. Sure by your dea­ling with vs we can coniecture none other.

Tush the Comparisons are not a­like.

Trulie even as like as may be. The Pha­risees founde fault with the Disciples for [Page 31]breaking a Tradition of th' Elders, viz. washing of handes at meate: and you find fault with vs for breaking a much woorse Traditiō of yours. You aske vs often whe­ther Churching be not a Decent thing: We aske you againe, whether washing bee not both a Decent thing, a cleanly thing, and a wholesome thing? Our Savior (you see) defended his Disciples in the breach of that Decencie of those Pharisees of that age: and his woord doth warrant and de­fende vs in the breach of this supposed De­cencie of your Pharisses of this age.

Nay then yea faith, if yee goe to that, ye may take your selues by the nose Mistres Cousen: For who the Devill be the right Pharisses & Hy­pocrites if yee be not? Ye are so de­mure, and ye make it so nice and so holy amōgst you, that by the Masse a dogge would not dwell with you.

I perceyue if a dogge dwelt with you, if you could but make him speake once, you would quicklie teach him to sweare.

O that is all your grace amongst you: you thinke your selues so pure over other men, because you can a litle bridle your selues from swea­ring, and yet ye wil doe tenne times woorse and make no bones at it. As couetous, as spitefull, and malicious yee are the most of you, as dogges. I knowe one of your crew who would not sweare for no good, and vsed ordinarilie to pray with his mē in his chamber, and yet beeing at a Knights house, where hee had good entertaynemēt, they prayed so har­tilie amongst them, that for consci­ence sake they faire thwited me of a valence of a bedde, and caried that & a piece of plate with them to the value of twentie nobles at the least.

Well though this peradventure may be one of your legend stories, for any thing I know, yet alow it to be true, what gette you by that? one sinne you know excuseth not another. These were hypocrites & theeves, [Page 33]therefore you to avoide this daunger, will needes be swearers & ruffeans: what phy­sike or policie call you that to avoid Hypo­crisie by plaine and open iniquitie?

Why I doe not defend swearing to bee good, woman: you doe not heare me say so, I wish I could leaue it with all my heart: It is but a foo­lish custome and comes from me at vnawares, and that many times whē I thinke no harme in the world.

Th'Apostle is against you in that: for he sayeth, Out of the aboundance of the heart the mouth speaketh: And our Savi­our saieth, That out of the heart comes e­vill thoughts, and yet you can droppe vile oathes amongst you (such is your skill) & thinke no harme. I must needes commend you for this, by meanes whereof you haue brought one notable thing to passe in our Church, and I wish for my part yee were Chronicled for it.

What is that good gossipper

Why, That albeit there be many Pari­shes [Page 34]amongest vs without a preaching Mi­nister, yet to mende the matter, there bee few Dioces in the lande without a swea­ring Chauncelor.

That is more thē you know, good huswife. But if it were so, I doe not thinke but the woorst Chauncelor amongst vs doeth more good then many of your vpstart and busie hea­ded Preachers, pratlers I should say.

Well, to let that rest as it is (for if there by any thing amisse, wee should doe wrong to looke for amendes from you) you see evidentlie, that th'example which I alleadged of our Saviour Christ in repro­ving the Pharisees and defendinge his Disciples in their refusall of that trifle of washing of handes, is both a check to you, for thus troubling of vs without cause, & a good warrant for vs to doe as we doe.

Doe I see it? I promise you I must gette me better spectacles then, then ever I could yet light on.

Well, if you doe not see it, I must needes [Page 35]holde with you, that your spectacles are starke naught in deede: But whether you doe see it, or will not see it, it is and ought to be a lesson of instruction to vs whom you now thus trouble: That whensoeuer anie Pharisaicall hypocrites doe strictlie vrge and presse the keeping of their owne traditions (bee they neuer so small and trifling) with the neglect of the cōmande­ments of God, then it is our partes by all lawfull & body meanes to bende our selues against them, and not to yeelde to th'ob­servation of the least of them: much lesse when the Traditions shalbe noisome, hurt­full and superstitious, and derogatorie to the glorie of God.

In good faith it was neuer merrie world since these twatling women became divines. I see I do but spend time with you. And yet when you haue sayd and done all that you can for your life, it will be founde (as I haue said) but a trifle that you stand vppon, whereas the peace of the [Page 36]Church is, or ought to bee to you a matter of great moment, and a thing that you ought daily to pray for, if you haue (as you pretend) any con­science with you, or regard of bro­therlie loue, with a defire to main­teine vnitie, and to avoyde iarres & dissentions.

We are I confesse to pray for the peace of Syon: For they shall prosper that loue her. But what? Is the Church now become a maynteiner of trifles? By your speaches so often iterated and redoubled (for you harpe still on that string) it should bee so: and what indignitie were that? But in deede as I haue told you the thing we stand vpon (if it be rightlie examined) is not in that nature of indifferencie as you would beare the world in hande it is, make of it what you will either Thankesgiving or Purifying if it be Thankesgiving indeed, it is my bounden duetie (say I) to performe it, and a sinne to leaue it vndone: If it bee Purifying, it is my bounden duetie to a­voyde [Page 37]it, and a sinne to practise it, because it treadeth vnder foote the sufficiencie of of the death and bloudsheading of IESVS Christ, which is th'onlie purgation of my sinne. So that turne it which way you will, it is no light matter or trifle of small re­garde, as you would haue it, but a thinge that one way or other greatly concerneth the glorie of God, & therein also you seeme to me apparantlie to crosse, entangle & en­snare your selfe in your owne speaches.

How so I pray you?

I haue tolde you alreadie, and that so often, that I am halfe wearie of telling it. But sure your minde is so on your haulfpe­nie, that you neither remember what I say, nor thinke on that you say your selfe. Haue you not alwayes called this Church­ing of yours, a Thankesgiving? and haue you not laboured by the title of it in the Booke, to defende it to be a Thankesgiuing and no Purifying?

Yes that I haue, and so I say still.

Why then I saye for shame away with [Page 38]this trifle and trifling of yours, and let vs heare no more of that: For Thankesgi­ving you know must needes be a part of Gods woorship and seruice. And what an impious & vngodly thing were it to make the holy woorship and seruice of God a tri­fle, a matter of nothing, not worth a rush, or a thing to bee done or not done at our pleasures? I protest vnto you, if it were a Thankesgiving in deede, that is such a part of Gods woorship as he hath comaun­ded and prescribed in his word, if I should wilfully refuse to doe it, I were not woor­thie to bee coumpted a member of his Church.

Yet still me thinkes the peace of the Church doeth not poize and prevaile with you as it should doe.

Heere is a doe with the Peace of the Church, and yet when ye haue all done, a man may easilie see that though ye talke of it never so much, yee vse it for the most part but as a staulking horse amongst you.

What meane you by that?

Why, you know well enough, that the staulkinge horse is not to blame for the death of the foule, he doeth but onely sha­dowe and stand before the fouler while hee killeth him: Even so doe you. The Peace of the Church (as you handle it) is a nota­ble vaile to shadowe all your deformities and corruptions. If a good Minister doe not yeelde to your lawlesse and vnconscio­nable subscription, or if he over skippe the Crosse in Baptisme, Ring in Mariage, or any such needles Ceremonie, then straight you choke him with the peace of the Church, the peace of the Church, and so you doe now by vs for our refusall of knee­ling and Churching.

And I pray you in good earnest, why may not these and more then these be endured and yeelded vnto for the peace of the Church?

If the Peace of the Church were so deare vnto you as you pretende and make shew of, then would ye never for shame trouble either Ministers or people for such odde [Page 40]things as those that rather hinder then further men in Religion. But your maner is whē you speake of one thing to meane an­other. You speake of the Peace of the Church, but you meane still the peace of your Hierarchie, the peace of your vnrulie places and offices, the Peace of all your Po­pish & beggerlie Ceremonies, so they may stande still vntouched, if yee Chauncelyers and your Officials may be at quiet in your roomes and iurisdictions: Litle (the Lord knowes) doe yee care for the peace of the Church: and that is seene not only by your troubling of vs now without cause, but by your ordinarie silēcing, suspending & im­prisoning of the best and holiest Preachers for these trifles, and your countenancing and allowing of dumme dogges, bee there liues and behaviour neuer so shamefull.

O (my good kinswoman) we haue heard enough of these matters long agoe. These supposed quarrells haue ben answered and answered againe, you come to late yea faith with [Page 41]your baskett of Apples now. What a Devil should you medle with any of these matters? It were much fitter for such as you are, to medle with your spindle and your wheele, and soberlie to attend your trades & vo­cations, then thus in the pride of your heartes to controlle your bet­ters, and to deale in Church causes which belong not vnto you.

I was I thank God busied in my vocatiō, and so I might haue ben still, had not you sommoned me thēce by your officer. I know right well Church causes belōg not to such as I am to deale in, neither doe I meddle withall farther then by way of sute or cō ­plainte to those that haue authoritie to re­dresse. And if the Peace of the Church can not mooue you to leaue cyting & troubling vs for trifles, whom otherwise you can not charge with anie crime, never blame vs if the bare sound and noyse of the Peace of the Church doe not at al mooue vs to yeeld to any of your trifling & fruitles Ceremo­nies against our consciences.

Well I am sorie you are so wilfull yea faith: I perceiue I shall doe no good of you.

I tell you you may easilie doe good of me, and easilie draw me to the bent of your bow, if you can produce and alleage vnto me but one only sentence and proofe out of the scriptures of God.

Scripture? there is nothing with you but Scriptures. No No. It is even the pride of your heart, and pievish singularity of your owne conceyte that doth thus draw you. Why doe you thinke no body seeth anie thing but your selfe? or doe you thinke there be not as sober & as honest womē as you Churched?

Then I perceyue you haue no Scripture in the worlde to perswade mee with, your onely scripture is the pride of my heart, the Singularitie of my conceite, and I can not tell what. But you aske me whether as ho­nest women as I be not churehed? I aske you againe, Whether as honest men as you [Page 43]haue not denied Christ. Th'examples of the godlie (you know) are not to be follow­ed but in godlines, whereas it is the com­mon guise of you and your generation to make a solemne gathering and calling as it were of the scabbes, imperfections and bleamishes of the best men, and then to lay them in our dish straight as a choake­peare to vs: as for example, if ye find once that Father Latimer and Ridley, or anie such like reverend man, did weare square cappe and surplus, why then there is no re­medie but this must bee proclaymed straight as an authenticall warrant to all the succeeding Ministers of the lande, that they may boldlie and safelie yeelde to the wearing of the like attire.

And I promise you, It is somthing I tell you as light as you make of it. Why is th'example of the godly Martyrs nothing with you, and your precise brotherhoode?

Yes it is something: but I doe not thinke it should waigh more with vs then th'ex­ample [Page 44]of Abraham, David, or Peters whose steppes you know we must not follow when they slippe or goe awry. But will you your selues I pray you (if a man may aske it) stande to the iudgement, and bee ru­led by th'example of the godlie Martyrs?

I see no reason but wee may and ought.

Why then downe falles to the grounde straight your lawlesse oath of Inquisition, wherewith yee so plague the Church now a dayes, Iudge by Mai. Tindall els, Mai. Lā ­bart, and others that suffered for the testi­monie of Gods trueth.

Indeed Ma. Tindall and Ma. Lam­bart were somewhat wilfull.

Iust, how els? Thus yee marshall the Martyrs as it please your selues, when they may serue your turne (be it in neuer so great ignorance and weaknesse of theirs) then their names, their pietie, and their patience are layde before vs in great and capitall letters, as paternes to follow. But when they crosse you in any thing (bee the [Page 45]same never so apparantlie warranted by the Scriptures) then alas, they were but men, yea and many times wilfull men, as you doe now most iniuriouslie slaunder M ^r Lambart and M ^r Tindall.

But to leaue these circumstances and by matters, doe you thinke it is a sinne to be Churched? speak your conscience.

As I haue alreadie saied, if it be a sinne to make shew of Thankesgiving, and yet to giue no thankes at all: if it be a sinne to abuse and misapplie the sacred Scriptures of God to another ende and purpose then it was giuen by the holy Ghost: if it bee a sinne to strengthen and confirme the Pa­pist in his superstition, and the simple and ignorant in their false & erroneous woor­ship: if all or any of these bee sinnes, then doe I not see how your Churching (as it is vsed amongst you) can escape the stampe and brandmarke of sinne. And howsoever it may bee to others, I doe well assure my selfe it were a sinne and wickednes in mee, [Page 46]because it is against the light of mine owne conscience grounded vpō the reasons that I haue alleaged vnto you.

Why, but if you like not the Psalme in the Booke whiche you keepe such adoe at, and be so coy & conceyted, that for feare of abusing it, forsooth you are loth to haue it read to you, yet your Minister may vse another if he will, and pray as he thinkes good. So you would de­centlie & womanly come to church at your time, as other your neigh­bours doe, by my trouth for my part I could bee content to winke at ma­nie things, and shew you any favour I could.

Then I perceyue you haue forgotten how in the beginning when I asked you what you meant by Churching, you tolde mee that which was prescribed in the booke: For law sayed you, would not warrant any other. And are you come now to giue vs libertie to vse another, so we would quiet­lie [Page 47]obserue your Ceremonie.

You say well, Is this the thankes I haue for my kindnesse and favor to you, in that I am contented to saue you from trouble and daunger, to yeeld a litle to your weaknesse, be­cause you seeme to make cōscience of I can not tell what? In good faith goship, you shall fitt till your heeles ake before I offer you this favour a­gaine.

Nay but for all your chafing, I would not haue you mistake me: What favour so euer you shew me, I will not by Gods grace be vnthankfull for it to my power. But I vnderstood you that you gaue me euen now free libertie to speake my minde, and that you would willinglie heare what soeuer I should say: and I tooke it and doe still take it, that your Sommoning and sending for me hither, was rather in your loue to con­ferre with me and to satisfie me, then by a­nie rigour of your law to punish me.

By my trouth you hitte it right: [Page 48]For I was greatlie beholden to your Father, and therefore I haue reason to wishe you well, & in that respect I would gladlie doe you what good I may.

Why, then you continew this minde to giue me your free warrant to speake in this case what I thinke, and to cast all the doubtes and make all th'obiections I can against you, that so you may the better re­solue me in th'end?

How els? In the name of God, speake you minde boldlie, neither shall you offend me with any thing you say: For I imagine you can say nothing in this cause, but I haue heard it alreadie.

Well then, doeth not this (I pray you) plainlie verifie and confirme that which I told you of before when I likened you to the Phariseis, vz. That your own foolish Tra­ditions and fruitlesse Ceremonies were dea­rer to you and of more pretious accoumpt, then the Sacred ordinance of God?

How so, I conceyue not that?

No? Did not you say that for my sake you would be cōtent to winck at the breach of the Booke, and giue the Minister leaue to vse other prayers, so I would be content in any sort to be Churched, and keepe your monethlie and manerlie Ceremonie?

Why if I saied so, you are the more beholden to me for that I doe not meane (I tell you) to shew euery bo­die that favour.

Well, howsoeuer I may in this regarde thanke you for your loue to me, yet to deale plainelie with you, I can not therein praise you for your loue to the Church, nor never shall till I see Preaching as much beholden to you as Churching is.

Why, doe you thinke I doe not preferre the preaching of the worde before anie other ceremonie of the Church, be it neuer so commenda­ble?

It should appeare no by your dealinge with our Minister.

Your Minister! yea faith your Mi­nister hath no more witte then hee occupies: He knowes not who is his friend nor who is his foe. I would to God he would be his owne friende once. Stand sticking and mincing it at these bables and trifles as he doth, when he might be quiet in his mini­sterie, if he would him selfe.

So might wee poore women (whom you thus trouble) be quiet too if we would bee Churched: Our Minister you know is an honest man of life, and a painfull Teacher in his place, you can not charge him with anie misdemeanour for your life. He prea­cheth amongest vs with great fruite, and hath wonne manie to the Gospell, and yet for refusall of your lawlesse subscriptiō be­side the Statute, and for not wearing of your surplus, & not Crossing in Baptisme, you neuer let him rest among you, but one while you are doeing with him in your Court: an other while the Pursevant from the High Commission trounceth him: So [Page 51]that yee make the poore man spend the bet­ter part of his poore living in iaunceling up and down about the moon shine in the Town-dich.

Why, who is this long of, gentle Cousen? Is not all this long of him­selfe? There be as wise & as learned as he that yeeld to all this you speake of, and more then this for the peace of the Church.

But I pray you tell mee, Why may you not be as kinde to him in his Ministerie & Preaching, as you offer to bee to me in this Ceremonie of Churching? You saye you preferre the preaching of the Gospell be­fore anie ceremonie whatsoever: if you meane in deede as you say, then for Gods sake wincke a little at the breach of the Booke in him as well as you are contented to doc in me: let not your loue to me in pri­vate bee greater then your loue to the Church in publike. Looke a litle thorough your fingers, and passe by as if you saw not his refusall of the Crosse and Surplus. [Page 52]That so we may enioye the meanes of our salvation in peace. And if in anie case you will yeelde to the breach of the Booke, let it bee for the Gospell sake, and not for a Ce­remonie.

In good faith, I can not tell what to say to you, with beeing among the perverse, you haue gotten as it were a kinde of habite of perverse­nesse. I had rather then any golde your husband and you had neuer planted your selues in that Parish: why you were well enough before, and well accoumpted of among your neighbours, and it must needs grieue many of your good friendes to see you in these tunes now.

I may truelie thanke God, as for many other his mercies, so especially for this that ever I came to this mans Ministery (whoms yee so trouble amongest you). I was indeed a Protestant before, and thought well of myselfe, and yet (if I shall not lie to you) I had no more Religion then my horse. But [Page 53]now I may truly say, that as my knowledge is in some measure increased, so I neuer made conscience of sinning and offending God, till I came to the place where I nowe dwell. All which as I must and doe attri­bute to God, as th' Author and Founteine, so to our Minister as the meanes and in­strument.

Indeede you haue made a very woorthie increase, and mended the matter wonderous wel. And all this is for nothing els but because you are come from Churching to No Churching: what a wonderful cure and charge your Minister hath wrought in you. I beleeue he vseth to Catechize you in nothing els but only in Churching, you seeme to be perfect in the point.

Well, I would you could tell how to dis­charge a good conscience in your places, (any of you Chancelours) aswell as our Minister doeth in his. His ordinarie tea­ching is (thankes be to God) in matters of [Page 54]more moment then you speake of, and if you heard him once your selfe, I make no question but you would say so. For mine owne part I never hearde him speake pu­blikly of this particular custome of churching in my life, further then might bee ga­thered out of any generall doctrine of his. Indeed I confesse I haue had private con­ference with him about it, and hee hath fullie satisfied me.

In what sort (I pray you) hath he fatisfied you? may I be bold as to craue a copie, or to be pertaker with you of your ghostly fathers resolu­tions?

Why you haue heard the most of them alreadie, and I haue made knowne to you at large the reasons that haue mooued mee to shake off and abandon this foolishe and superstitious custome of yours, wherewith I had well hoped you had bene satisfied.

Indeede you haue told me many prety things, but yet they bee such as I haue hearde of before. Why, [Page 55]they be the common reasons of you all amongst you. I neuer had any of you before me, but they haue plea­ded euen as you doe, or to the same effecte.

The more saye I (vnder correction) haue you to aunswere for, That havinge had so manifest reasons layed before you so long agoe, and the same so often iterated and repeated vnto you, there is yet no ma­ner of relenting in you, but you doe still persist and goe on in your course, in trou­bling poore women without cause.

Why you know my Lord Bushop went farther with some of you not farre from your quarters, and made the proudest of them crouch, and come on their knees, enforcing thē to be Churched in despite of them, and that two or three yeares after they were layed. You would thinke I deale hardlie with you, if I should vse any of you so.

Now sure it was Bushoplike done of [Page 56]him if he did so. But what warrant I pray you had my Lord to make them crouch in this maner as you speake of? Doeth the Booke or any Law of the lande authorize him to Church a woman 3 yeare after shee is brought to bedde? shew me that I pray you for my learning?

Well, you haue nothing to doe with that. Therefore it shall be good for you Cousen (as I haue told you) to medle with your own matters & to bee armed howe to aunswere for your selfe, and not to deale in things impertinent to your place.

Content then, you giue me good counsell: But remember your self, I pray you, that it was you that brought in the Bushop & not I. I medled not with him till you spake of him. But to desire to bee resolved in some things of you is not I hope impertinent to my place, is it?

No, god forbid, whatsoever you de­sire to be satisfied in, be bold I pray you to propound it, and I will thank [Page 57]you and doe my best to resolue you as farre foorth as lieth in me.

Why then in this Thankesgiving you speake of, who is it that you would haue giue thankes?

Why, the woman that hath bene deliuered.

When is it that you would haue her giue God thankes?

When shee is strong and able to goe to Church.

And not before? would you haue her for­gett her self, and be vnthankfull till then?

Nay, God forbid, I hope shee hath more grace then so. But I speake of publike thāksgiving & not of private.

Why, but the blessing you see is private, and what reason is it then, or what war­rant, or what example haue you out of the Scripture, that there should be an ordina­rie sett seruice in Publike for euery priuate and perticular blessing? I would faine you resolved me in that. If the Minister bee in duetie bounde to giue God thankes [Page 58]for euery private and particular bleshing, why not then as well for my husbands fall of his horse, as for my deliverance? I tell you I holde my husbande a farre more woorthy member of the Church then my selfe, and therefore I see no reason why yee should not cause him to bee Churched as well as me, and so all others in our parishe that haue escaped either drowning or dan­ger of death.

Me thinkes Cousen you doe not rightly consider of it as you should doe. It is in my vnderstanding ano­ther maner of thing then you take it for. There is you must marke in the thing a double blessing: The birth of a babe into the world bee­ing an excellent creature of God: And the deliuerance and dangerous escape of the woman. No question but the Church in this her seruice, hath a speciall reference and relati­on to both: In which regard it may well be called more then a private [Page 59]or particuler blessing?

Something you haue saied to the mat­ter, and yet when it is examined it will bee founde nothing. A double blessing you call it: The birth of the babe, and the deliue­rance of the woman. But I say the Church in that set service of hers hath no manner of respecte at all to the former of thē that is the birth of the childe.

How proove you that:

By the very practise of our Church whereof your selfe may bee a witnesse. For if the woman die before her moneth, there is no maner of seruice nor Thankesgiuing at all for the Babe, though it thriue and prosper neuer so much. Therefore the Church in those her churching prayers, neuer regardeth that at all, having pray­ed and giuen God thankes for the Babe be­fore at Baptisme.

Well what of all that?

Why then you must giue mee leaue to holde my former opinion, That for the Church to establish a Publike seruice for [Page 60]euery private and ordinarie blessing (as Child-birth is) is without ground or war­rant. Indeed I confesse that if the Queene or Princesse of a lande, in whom the whole Realme hath an interest, were deliuered of a Babe, then I take it the Church had some reasons to make a Publike and generall Churching or Thankesgiuing to God: As I haue heard that for the birth of King Edward there was: But otherwise such an ordinarie seruice as yours is, for euery pri­vate woman such as my self, hath in mine opinion neither legges nor foundation to stande on.

O I remember now these were some of the woorthy reasons that your Minister alleaged when hee was before me in Mistres Winters case.

But what thinke you? Were they not sound reasons? or are you able by any co­lour of reason to answere or avoid them?

Well, by your leaue, your Mini­ster (as holy as he is) plaied the Asse [Page 61]there egregiously.

How so I pray you? Wherein? I premise you I see not but hee did that which be­longeth to him in all faithfulnesse.

Why is not shee his patronesse I pray you, and did not her husband giue him the benefice?

What of that?

Why then you must needes con­fesse he dealt but badly with her, & vnkindly to refuse to Church her.

I see no vnkindnesse in it in the world nor yet any vndutifulnesse to her, conside­ring at what an vnconvenient time shee sent for him, on the Saboth day morning, and that in all post hast, of purpose as it is thought, to pike a quarrell to him, having conceyved a bitter displeasure against him for his Sermon before.

Alas the gentlewomā had thought (as shee saith) and had verely pur­posed to haue gone to Church her self ouer-night, but the weather fal­ling out something whette and slab­bie [Page 62]in the morning, had it bene such a matter for him to haue come downe to her when shee sent for him?

What at that time and houre betwixt 9 and 10 of the clocke when he was readie to goe to the sermon: Had that bene fitte thinke you?

Sermon me no Sermons. By the masse I would not haue hazarded her displeasure for that, knowinge that my living did depend vpon it. Why might hee not haue preached an other time, or haue fained some excuse for that present, that hee had not ben well or so?

Nay like enough: This is euen like your selues, and fully sutable to the rest of your proceedings. What other fruites should one looke for from men of your constitution? But doeth not this iustifie that whiche I haue so often charged you with: That you more prize & esteeme these bables of your owne hatching and invention, then the [Page 63]sacred ordinance of God? And is it not a strange witcherie, that ye can bee content amongst you thus to suffer the Preaching and Ministerie of the woord to giue place to a Iewish or Popish ceremonie?

O be not angrie good Cousen.

Well, ye may see (if yee will not wilfullie blindfolde your selues) what mischief and inconvenience comes by this so crosse and perverse dealing of yours. For what with the care of the Decencie of Churching and your carelesnesse of the necessitie of Prea­ching, ye haue almost marred all amongst you, and brought it so to passe, that the poore ignorant people of the lande doe thinke all the service of GOD to lye in Churching, Crossing, Kneeling, and bee­ing houseled (as they call it) at Easter. As for Preaching, they holde that for a super­fluous and needlesse Ceremonie: and ther­fore when their seruice is done, they take it they may lawfullie goe out of the Church, though the Minister be readie to goe into the Pulpitt. And all this my good Cousen [Page 64]is long of you and your associates. I must needs in all plainesse tell you what I thinke.

Well, these be things that you and I shall not redresse in hast, gentle kinswoman. We may well wish and pray for the redresse: but yea faith neither you nor al your precise bro­therhood can for your liues tell how to helpe it.

If we can not helpe it (as you say) yet it were to bad to go about to hinder it (as you doe) you speake of praying and wisshing, & yet I can not see that you do so much as wish and desire the thing you speake of: Nay it were well if yee did indeed wish a reformation and redresse from your heartes.

Why, do you thinke mee so farre gone that I doe not wish well to the Church and State wherein I liue?

It seemes no by your owne speaches. For in your mouth you condemne the Mini­ster for that which in your conscience you ought to commend him for. And what [Page 65]was the Ministers fault, I pray you? For­sooth he would not forsake and giue ouer his Preaching to Church his Patronesse, Wherevpon you sweare, (Sermon you no sermons) Yea and by your leaue, when the matter came before you (to your reproch be it spoken good Cousen, God forgiue you for it) you tooke part with the Gentlewo­man against our Minister. Call you this to wish well and to desire and pray for re­formation and amendement?

Tush that was but in one particu­lar (woman) and for once only that I would haue had him ouerskipt his sermon for a future benefire both to the Church and him self: and what hurt had it bene (I pray you) for him to haue layed aside one sermon, that afterward hee might haue preached manie sermons in peace? As for my taking part with the Gentlewoman, that was for your Ministers good, if you and he had eyes to see it: to the [Page 66]end that I might afterward th'easi­lier pacifie and preuaile with the Gentlewomā, who I assure you was mightilie incensed against him, and had in purpose to remooue him if shee could.

Well, if your purpose and intent were good, I am gladde of it, though God (you see) doe seldome blesse but rather crosse & curse these purposes of yours, because you walke not with a straight foote and an vp­right heart. But to lett that passe and to come to our former speach of Thankesgi­uing, would you haue the Woman alone giue God thankes for that blessing, or her friendes to ioine with her therein?

What a question is that? Is it not fitte and requisite that her friendes that loue her, should ioine with her in so good an action?

How happens it then that ye handle the matter so amongest you in your manner of Churching, That neither the Husbande [Page 67]must ioyne with his wife, nor the Father with his daughter, nor the Sonne with his Mother, nor the Brother with his Sister, nor they that are most bounde in nature and by the law of GOD to giue thankes, must not at all medle with it, nor haue a­nie thing to doe with all, as if they had no interest in that blessing at all, but were meere straungers to it.

O it is fittest in good faith that they onely that were by the woman in her anguish and trauell, should be by her also at her Thankesgiving. What a Devill should men medle with womens matters?

You say well, men must not medle with womens matters. But I alwayes tooke Thankesgiuing to God to be a matter be­longing to men as well as to women. And if men must not medle withall, what should the Minister deale in it, or why should he be troubled for not medling with this womans busines? He was not by (you [Page 68]know, at the womans travell, and there­fore you might doe well to exempte him as well as you doe others: For you know when the Bushop maketh and ordaineth a Mini­ster, be giueth him authoritie to Preach, to minister the Sacramentes, and to exer­cise Discipline, and not to Church women. This by th'institution is no part of his of­fice, and therefore you may the rather par­don him if he happen to omitte it.

He (you know) is the mouth of the Congregation. And who should deale in the Prayers of the Church, but onely he?

I confesse the Minister by his place & function ought to be as well the mouth of God to the people to deliuer vs his will, as the mouth of the people to God to lay o­pen our wantes and to craue his assistance. But in this case that you speake of, of your solemne Churching, or rather Purifying of women, he is neither of both. Hee ma­keth shew (as I haue tolde you) of Thanks­giuing, [Page 69]but giueth none in deede, in so much that your selues can not tell what to make of it for your liues, as a service that is neither fishe nor fleash, nor good redde hearing: and yet yee must needes defende it and mainteyne it, and that stiffelie: yea and manie times make the Preachinge of the woord giue place vnto it, such is your care of the peace of the Church. God for­giue it you my good Cousen. This is a trueth you know, I can not dissemble with you.

Well will you dispatch, gentle Kinswoman, and pay the Sumnor his fees, and so I am contented for this time to dismisse you and your fellowes, till I send for you againe.

Why doe you meane then in deede to trouble vs againe? I was in good hope ra­ther you had bene halfe wearie & abashed of this that you haue done alreadie. Well, seeing you speake of the Sumners fees, I must intreat you before you goe, to remem­ber [Page 70]that good honest man of your owne making one Ma. Turne-peny.

Why should I remember him?

Because he was once (you knowe) one of your gracelesse Apparitors at Lichfield: And was dailie so busilie occupied about his fees, and so earnest to sommon men for his vnlawfull gaine about such like trifles, as you doe nowe trouble vs for, that you know what followed.

By my trouth Cousen, it was no­thing so badde as the worlde makes of it: Some matter there was, and some trouble of minde the poore man had toward his ende, But yea faith we ought to iudge the best.

Why did not his maister (whom hee served so devoutlie) sommon him at his death to pay his fees? or did hee not con­fesse at that time, that the Divell appea­red vnto him to bidde him dispatch and make haste? And did hee not there-vpon end his dayes in great miserie, to the be­holders, [Page 71]with fearfull cryes and schrikes of desperation? I am sure you will not denie this.

Well, well, The man you speake of is gone before, and wee must fol­lowe after, God graunt vs all of his grace: Of the deade wee are taught (you know) to say the best: howso­euer it is, it shalbe good for you to haue an eye to your selues and your owne estates, and not to stand thus gazing and gaping vpō others with whom yee haue nothing to doe: ca­rie your selues peceablie as becom­meth sober women. For though I shewe you favour nowe, yee must think I can not doe so alwayes: I am overlooked my selfe, & thereby you know, can not doe whatI would.

The man (you say) is gone before and wee must follow after: You doe not meane I hope thereby that we must followe Ma. Turne-penie either in his steppes in this [Page 72]life, or in his ende and destinie when hee went out of this life. In either of these I tell you, wee would be loth to followe him, and I trust GOD in mercie will shield vs from it. We must (you say) haue an eye to our selues, and not stande gazing and ga­ping vpon others: and yet so to looke vpon others, namelie vpon David as an exam­ple of mercie, or vpon Saul as an example of iudgement, that thereby wee may reape profitt and benefit to our selues, is not (I thinke) either daungerous or vnlawfull. That which I spake of the man was not of malice, I assure you, for I knowe him not: but for a Caveat and warning to such as you are to beware of the like practise, least you be overtaken with the like iudgement. He sommoned for trifles, and so doe you. He prosecuted & pursued the best and the holiest men, and so doe you. Hee laughed and gyred and made a scoffe when he was tolde of his fault, and so doe you. He came to a fearfull and lamentable ende, and so [Page 73](without repentance while mercie is offe­red) may you. But you are overlooked, you say: if it be so in deede, I am not sorie for it: for I could wish that you and your over-lookers were better over-looked then you bee, and then it were happie, and thrice happie for our Church. The best is, (and therein is our onelie comfort) There is one that over-lookes vs all, and bridles both you and your overlookers: otherwise it were double woe with vs. To his blessed direction (with thankes for this time) I leaue you. And so praying you not to sende for one againe in haste (wishing my self at home, and you a better office & occupation to thrine by then this) I bidde you farewell.