Tyndale.

Not wythstandynge yet yt is some tyme taken generally, for all that em­brace the name of Criste though theyr faythes be nought, or though they haue [Page xcviii] no fayth at all. And sometymes yt is taken specyally for the electe onely / in A whose hartes god hath wryten his law wyth his holy spyryte, and geuen them a felynge fayth of the mercy that is in Cryste Iesu our lorde.

More.

Lo now ye haue herd how many maner of wise Tyndale teacheth vs that this word chyrch is takē. In whych yet he hath lefte oute one sygnyfycacyone or twayen y ^t this worde playnely sygnyfyeth. One is that this worde chyrch besyde all the sygnyfycacyons that Tyndale hath here shewed vs: doth syginfye that parte of the chyrch that in synodis & coū sayles do represent the whole chyrch. As when we saye that there is a law made by the chyrch that heretikes shall not be sufferd to preach / lyke wise as a parliamēt rep̄senteth y ^e hole reame, & is by the comen speche so called to / as whē we say y ^t the realme hath made a law that heretikes shalbe burned. B

The chyrch also sygnifyeth sometyme a mych lesse nomber that is to wyt / the onely rulers or hedes of the chyrche. as where we be commaunded to complayne to the chyrch / yt is not ment to all y ^e whole towne nor to all the clergy therof, of, but to rulers and gouernours. Syth Tyndale hath taken vppon hym to shew vs here his hygh doctryne, how many manner of wyse this worde chyrch is taken: yt bylon­ged rather vnto hym to haue taken in these sygnifycaciōs, then some of them that he hath taken as ye shall se anon

But fyrst I meruaile me mych that Tyndall hath eyther clene lefte out or ellys put in so darkely, y ^t he wold not haue yt perceyued that sygnyfycacyon of this worde chyrch, that is one of the pryncypall sygnyfycacyons therof, and wher­upon the greteste wayght of all our mater depēdeth. And y ^t C is that sygnifycacyon, by whych [...] the chyrch sygnyfyeth not as Tyndale taketh yt in his thyrde sygnyfycacyon, for all a multitude gathered to gether in one, of all kyndes, condy­cyons, and degrees of people / but of such onely people as be crysten people, and them not in one cytye onely, but that hole nomber of euery cytye, towne, and village thorow out all the hole world: this sygnifycacyon Tyndale leueth out clene, bycause yt toucheth moste the mater.

For as for that he saith in his fore remembred note: he semeth but to set a specifycacyon of his thyrde sygnifycacion, as though he wolde meane yt for y ^e hole nōber of cyteseyns, or ellys for the onely nōber of the electys wyth in some one cytye, as he there putteth London for his example. And yf [Page xcix] A he wold there name in his note the hole catholyque chyrch: I meruyle why he sayth that yt is called so sometyme / as though that sygnifycacyon were very rare and selde, where as of trouth there is of the chyrch no sygnifycacyon neyther more great nor more comen, then that by whych yt is ment and taken for the catholyque chyrch and vnyuersall.

How be yt of trouth Tyndale handeleth his thyrde sy­gnyfycacyon very secundely, and fareth as one that wolde fayne walke in the darke. For the places of scrypture seme to speke of onely crysten people in this place and that. But his descrypcyon of y ^e chyrch in that sygnifycacyon goeth far otherwyse. For when he sayth that yt sygnifyeth not onely the clergye but the hole congregacyon, multitude, or com­pany gathered in to one / as a man wold saye the chyrch of B London, meanynge not the spyrytualty onely but the hole body of the cytye, and all that parteyne vnto the towne ge­nerally of all kyndes, condycyons, and degrees: of this sy­gnyfycacyon surely few folke haue herd. For though he name a crysten cytye for a sample: yet may there be some cy­tyes and haue bene, and yet be some such in some other places / that of the cyteseyns and of the hole bodye of the cytye, and of such as pertayne vnto the towne generally / not one­ly be there crysten prestes and crysten laye people / but open caste oute heretykes also, ye and peraduenture Iewes, Turkes, and Saracens to, that be not crystened and all. And in some cytyes few crysten people and the remanaunt infyde­les / and suche were the cytyes to whome the apostle wrote. And then I am sure when saynt Paule spake of y ^e chyrch of C the Corynthyes or of the Ephesyans: he ment not in thys Tyndales thyrde sygnyfycacyon after his descrypcyon, all the hole bodye of the cytye, and all such as perteyned therto generally / but the crysten people onely.

Nor now also yf Tyndale wolde speke of the chyrche of London, where all the hole towne is crysten people: there wolde no man vnderstande therby th [...] hole body of the cyte, but the clergye onely / nor no man Tyndale excepte in spe­kynge wolde so meane. But this darkenes vseth Tyndale / bycause he wolde haue it seme y ^t thys worde chyrche, which in the englysshe tonge hath euer had a good sygnyfycacyon & an holy in mennys hertes: sholde seme to haue somtyme the contrary. Out of whyche darkenes I shall drawe Tyn­dale anone I truste / and accordynge to my poetry wherin [Page c] he mokketh me, pull vp cerberouse in to the lyght. A

But now let vs fyrste consyder a lytell hys fyrst sygnyfycyon, where he sayth, yt sygnyfyeth a place wherunto crysten people were wonte in the olde tyme to resort at tymes conuenyent, for to here the worde of doctryne, the lawe of god, and the fayth of our sauyour Cryste, and how and what to pray, and whense to aske power and strength to lyue godly.

why sayth Tyndale here in the olde tyme / for all this we do in the new tyme to, how so euer Tyndale lyste to lye.

Then goeth he ferther and lyeth on lustely, sayenge that of Crystes promyses nor of hys mercye we knowe no thyng at all / as though no man had here herd euer any thyng spo­ken, that mankynde is redemed by Crystes passyon, & that he hath ordayned his holy sacramentes, and promysed men grace that wyth fayth and deuocyon receyue them. Is not thys man shameles so boldely to bere vs all in hande, that B we neuer here worde of suche thynges as euery boy better byleueth then he?

For euery chylde that is of competent age / hath herde y ^t god gyueth by hys holy ordynaunce (whych euer includeth hys promyse) grace wyth all his .vii. sacramentes / where as Tyndale of seuen taketh it a way fro fyue, and from almost one and an halfe of the tother twayne to.

Euery boy byleueth, and byleueth trew / that god hath promysed rewarde to good workes. And Tyndale wyll not byleue y ^• promyse at all / but denyeth it playnely, as playnly as god sayth it hym self in many places of the very gospell.

But then on the tother syde Tyndale telleth vs, that god hath promysed alwaye to euery man the blysse of heuen for onely fayth alone. And here euery boy byleueth and woteth C well he lyeth.

Now towchynge the mercy of our lorde / who can speke of Crystes passyon and speke nothyng of hys mercy? This man is to madde to talke wyth. Goddys mercy is so greate that no man can speke inoughe thereof. But the worlde waxeth such now a dayes / y ^• as it is nede to pray for mercy, so were it nede to preche of goddys iustyce, & put the people in mynde of hys wrathe and indygnacyon lykely to fall vp­pon vs, yf we gyue eare to suche dedely do [...]ryne as Tyn­dale techeth / and I pray god of hys greate mercy to gyue that man a better mynde.

yet goeth he ferther and sayth, that of the lawe of god we thynke as dyd the Turkes and the olde Hethen people / that it is a thynge whyche [Page ci] A euery man may do of our owne power.

what careth Tyndale what he saye / that careth not to wryte thys, wherein euery mannes earys that wolde hym well, glowe for very shame that here hym. where herde he euer any man saye, that any man may fulfyll the law of god of hys owne power. Mary thys we saye and saye trowth, y ^e man hath suche power gyuen of god that he maye worke wyth goddes grace in the kepynge of the law. But this can not Tyndale bere / for theyr heresye is, that man towarde y ^e kepyng of goddys precepte, hath no fre wyll at all / and now dyssymylynge hys owne heresye he dedely byleyth vs.

Now of prayour he sayth, we thynhe that no man maye praye but at chyrche / and that it is nothynge ellys but to saye a pater noster to a post / and that the obseruaunces and ceremonyes of the chyrche are vayne thynges B of our owne ymagynacyon, neyther nedefull to the tamynge of the f [...]esshe, nor profytable to our neyghbour, neyther honour vnto god.

Those lyes come in by lumpes lo. I dare saye he neuer herde in hys lyfe man nor woman saye, that no man maye praye but at chyrche.

As trew is it also that men saye theyr pater noster to the poste / by whych name it pleaseth hym of hys reuerent crystē mynde to call the ymages of holy fayntes and oure blyssed lady, and the fygure of Crystes crosse, the booke of hys byt­ter passyon.

Though we reuerence these in honour of the thynges whyche they represent / and in the remembrauns of Cryste do crepe to the crosse and kysse it and say a pater noster at it: yet saye we not the pater noster to it but to god / and that C woteth Tyndale full well, but that he lysteth to rayle.

As for that he sayeth of the seruyce, ceremonyes, and ob­seruaūces of the chyrche, whych he calleth here vayne yma­gynacyons, howlynge, buzsynge, and cryenge out lyke ha­lowynges of the foxes or baytynge of berys, & thus he sayth it is now / but of olde tyme he sayth y ^t the officers appoynted there vnto, preched the pure word of god onely, and prayed in a tonge that euery man vnderstode.

As for prechynge of the pure word of god: I muste wyt of Tyndale whyther he meane the worde wryten or vnwryten or bothe. If he say they preched the worde of god bothe wryten and vnwryten and onely that: then I saye so do we now to. Peraduenture he wyll say that the precheours now lay thereto the [...]ide holy doctours: I saye that therein they [Page cii] lay but goddes worde / for they laye them for the better vnderstandynge A of goddes worde wryten, and for the better knowlege of goddes worde vnwryten. For we be very sure that yt is his worde when we se that all the holy doctours that spent theyr lyfe in the studye of his worde, and in the kepynge of his worde, and the prechynge of his worde: do testyfye from age to age by theyr holy wrytynge, that those wordes vnwryten which y ^e chyrch beleueth were and be his wordes, as well and as veryly as those that be wryten in any parte of scrypture.

Then yf Tyndale wyll say that our preacheours preche Aristotle, philosophers, and poetes: thereto I say that they sometyme speke of philosophers in thynges of nature or of morall vertues. And yf this new apostle now saynte Tyn­dale take this thyng for so great an heyghnouse cryme: thē B is he surely mych more apostolycall then was Crystes olde apostle Poule. For he letted not in his epystle to the Roma­nes to alledge and alowe the philosophers cōnyng, though he dysproued and dyspraysed y ^e foly of theyr fall & wreched­nes of theyr lyuynge. Titi. 1 And in his epistle to Titus he toke yt for no synne to alledge the poetes versys / but in y ^e disprayse of them of Crete for vsyng of Tyndales fasshyō in lyenge, and also in geuynge the worlde warnyng to beware of such as Tyndale is / whose euyll wordes and sermons do cor­rupte and marre mennys good maners as his doth, where he wolde make menne wene that good maners were no­thynge worth. And thus yf Tyndale graūt the tone parte / that is to say that of olde tyme they preched both the worde of god wryten and vnwryten: then he wynneth nothynge / C for euen so do they in the new tyme to.

Now yf he wyll not saye they preched both of olde tyme / but that of olde tyme they preched onely the tone, that is to wyt the worde of god wryten: then must we wytte of Tyn­dale whych he calleth the olde tyme. For this I wote well & so dothe Tyndale to, that fyrste of all, Cryste our sauyour hym selfe preched more then his worde wryten, and promysed also wythoute wrytynge, and was byleued then wyth­out wrytynge, that he wolde sende the holy goost that shold teache his chyrch all trewth wythout wrytyng / & Cryst full trewly fulfylled his promyse without wryting / and yet will not Tyndale now byleue hym wythout wrytynge / and af­ter Cristes deth dyd his apostles preache mych more of goddes [Page ciii] A worde thē was writē. And therfore yf Tyndale grownd hys argument vppon the olde tyme, and say that they pre­ched onely goddes worde wryten: I haue dreuen hym on­warde one steppe downe / for I haue shewed hym here the oldest tyme and the best tyme of Crystendome, in whyche he can neuer wreste out but that he shall confesse that all y ^e cry­sten prechours, that is to wyt all the euangelystes and all the apostles of Cryste, and Cryste hym selfe also / besyde the scrypture preched goddes word vnwryten as longe as euer they lyued. For I truste that Tyndale as madde as he is, is not yet so madde / as to thynke that after that some of the apostles had wrytē eyther gospels or pystles, that then they alleged theyr owne wrytynges for theyr authoryte or theyr owne felowes eyther / as though theyr owne wordes & theyr B owne wrytynge were not all of one credence.

But now yf Tyndale be not content to stande to y ^t olde tyme / and wyll saye that he spake of olde tyme but not of so [...]lde: then [...]yth he compareth the olde tyme wyth thys tyme that is now, we must aske hym whyche tyme is that whych he taketh for y ^e olde tyme in respecte of this newe tyme now. we call an olde man ye wote well at fourscore yere, and at an hundred yere very olde. wyll Tyndale stande to y ^• tyme? wyll he stande at two hūdred, iii. hundred, iiii, v, vi, vii, viii? Nay surely he wyll none of all those hūdredes. For he sayth in hys preface that all thys eyghte hundred yere and aboue / the prechours haue ben false, and haue falsyfyed the scryp­ture. Now semeth me that eyghte hundred yere is in respect of now a metely old tyme. And syth he sayth y ^t by all this old C tyme they haue not preched goddys worde well: I wolde knowe whyche is that olde tyme in whyche they preched goddys worde well, and the worde onely wryten, wythout any prechynge of any worde of god vnwryten, and toke for vayne and fa [...]se all that euer were called goddys worde, but yf they foūde it wryten. Let Tyndale no [...] tell vs that olde tyme. For this must he tell vs or els he tak [...]th a fowle fall.

Now wyll he make many shy [...]es / and [...] the last he shall be fayne to fall bothe into hys owne poe [...]y, and also in to hys grammer agayne / and come forth wyth hys .iii. degrees of compacyson, olde, elder, and eldest. And syth neyther the oldest [...] of Cryst and hys apostels a [...]ay [...] serue hym, by­cause the [...] besyde scryp [...]t [...]e the [...]orde of god [...] t [...]n / nor [...] ty [...] of eygh [...] [...] y [...]res nowe lāste [Page ciiii] passed, bycause they preched as Tyndale sayth dyuerse sa­cramentes, A ceremonyes, and promyses as the wordes of god vnwryten in whych he sayth they preched false / but he wyll take an elder tyme then thys, and not so olde as that, that is to wyt the tyme next after the apostels dayes / and he wyll say that all the wordes of god were then all redy wrytē by the euāgelystes and the apostels / so that there was none of goddys wordes lefte vnwryten / and therfore after theyr dayes by a certeyne tyme the trewe prechers preched purely the bare worde of god wryten in holy scrypture: well nowe be Tindale and I comen at last to some poynt. For he sayth a thynge here, wyth whiche he answereth me well, and with good grammer sauynge for his poetry, for that marreth all hys mater. For I saye surely that he sayth not trouth / but that of goddes wordes they wrote not all / but dyuers thyn­ges B were by god to them and by them to other taughte by mouth, and by tradycyon from hande to hande delyuered, and from age to age hytherto contynued in Crystes chyrch. And that I saye trewth in thys poynt / I haue dyuers good and honest wytnesses to bryng forth when tyme requyreth / saynt Austayne, saynt Hyerom, saynt Cypryan, saynt Chry­sostem, and a greate many mo / whyche haue also testefyed for my parte in thys mater more then a thousand yere a go. yet haue I a nother auncyent sad father also / one that they call Origene. And when I desyred hym to take the payne to come and bere wytnesse wyth me in thys mater, he semed at the fyrst very well content. But when I tolde hym that he sholde mete with Tindale: he blessed hym selfe & shranke bakke, and sayde he had leuer go some other waye many a C myle then onys medle wyth hym. For I shall tell you syrquod he / before thys tyme a ryght honorable man very connyng and yet more vertuouse, the good bysshoppe of Rochester, in a great audyēce brought me in for a wytnes agaynst Luther and Tyndale euyn in thy [...] same mater, aboute the tyme of the burnynge of Tyndalys euyll translated testa­ment. But Tyndale as sone as he herde of my name / with­out any respecte of honestye fell in a rage wyth me and all to rated me, and called me starke heretyke, and that the starkeste that euer was. Thys tale Orygene tolde me & swore by saynt Symkyn that he was neuer so sayed vnto of suche a lewde felowe synnys he was fyrste borne of hys mother / and therfore he wolde neuer medle wyth Tyndale more. [Page cv] A Now in dede to say the treuth yt was not well done of Tyndale to leue resonynge and fall a scoldyng, chydynge, and brawlynge, as yt were a bawdy begger of byllyter lane. Fy for shame he sholde haue fauored & forborne hym somwhat, and yt had bene but for his age. For Origene is now .xiii. hundred yere olde or there aboute / and this was not mych aboue .vii. yere synnes.

Now yf this made Tyndale bold to set Origene as short as his olde shone, bycause saynt Hierome founde some fau­tes in his workes: he muste remember agayne that many a good man, and among those saynte Pamphilus the blessed martyr / founde in Origenes doctrine so mych er [...]dycyon, deuocyon, & vertue, bysyde that they veryly thought those errours none of his / nor neuer were there any such fa [...]tes B founden in his wrytynge whyle hym self lyued, nor no man offended with hym, & many places in his bokes playne y ^t seme to saye y ^e cōtrary. And therfore many good men thought and yet thynge, all be yt saynt Hierome thought otherwyse (as he myght well inow whyle that poynte no thynge perteyneth to the fayth) that chose heresyes were put in to hys bokes after his deth by some that were heretyques in dede / and wolde for the great estymacyon that Origene [...] was in thorough all the chyrch, anaunce theyr owne heresyes for­warde vnder the name and standard of his famouse autho­ryte.

But graunted nowe that those fa [...]tes were his whyche were imputed vnto hym, yet is this none of thē. But saynte [...] so C [...] Tyndales scoldyng, accepted and taken [...] all [...] [Page cvi] wyll I brynge in with hym some other that I haue named / A and yet other mo bysyde, that shall as I sayd testyfye with me before this boke be done / y ^t god hath taught his chyrche many thynges wherof in the scrypture his worde is yet vn­wrytem.

But now wyll I for y ^e meane while touchyng this poynt wheruppō y ^e great wayghte of all the mater hangeth, go ne­rer vnto Tyndale a nother waye.

It is ye wote well agreed bytwene vs / or yf he wold be so madde to say naye, ye wyll yet your selfe agre this in his stede: that ones of olde tyme Cryste hym selfe and his apostles dyd teache and preache m [...]ny wordes of god vnwryten.

Now thus I say, syth many thynges were tought fyrst vnwryten yf any of them be yet lefte vnwryten / then saye I that Tyndale is at the leste wy [...]e temerariouse & ouer bolde, B so certaynely to affyrme that any sacrament that the chyrch vseth and so longe hath vsed, or ceremony eyther, is idola­trye / for as mych as if we lakked sure profe vppon our syde (whyche in dede we lakke not by reason of goddes spyryte by Crystes owne promyse euer abydynge wyth his chyrch, and teachyng it all trewth / but yf we lakke I say that profe for our parte) yet were he to presumptuousely bowe so pre­cysely to affyrme the contrary / syth he can not say naye but that they myght be some of those y ^t were sometyme to [...]ghte vnwryten, and yet remayne obserued vnwryten / as y ^e other that now be wryten were tought & kept wythout wrytynge before.

To this wyll Tyndall answere, that sy [...] that tyme all goddes wordes, promyses, & sacramentes that he wold C haue kepte and byleued in crys [...]ndome: he hath caused to be wryten, by his euangelistes and apostles / and lefte n [...]ne vnwryten, to [...] that his chyrch shall not stande in a­ny d [...]wte nor fall into any errour of any necessary poynt for lakke of wrytynge / but mo [...]e [...]know [...] by that he hath caused all to be wryten, that all be false and fayned, and [...]ennys madde in [...]encyons that they byleue and obserue vnwrytē. For w [...]y sholde he [...]se some to be wryten and suffer some lefte vnwryten / to make men sure of some, and to leue some in [...]

[...] [Page cvii] A cause / for he seeth why well inough, and therfore I wyll gyue no rekenynge why god hath caused some to be wryten and some to be lefte vnwryten. But thys wyll I be bolde to saye / that he was not of any necessyte compelled to wryte any one sacramēt or ceremony or weyghty poynt of byleue, for any fere leste it sholde fall awaye / and that he coude not wyth hys owne spyryte kepe it in mennys hertes and vsage wythout wrytynge, as well as he kept in the good genera­cyons the knowledge of his promyses and his lawes longe and many ages before the lawe was wryten / and yet wrote them not all therin neyther, but the people had a fayth of Cryste amonge them more large then was wryten in theyr lawe / whyche went from hande to hande I thynke from Adams dayes, to whom it is lykely that god made after his B fall some larger promyse and reuelacyon of hys redempcyō agayne, than we fynde made vnto hym wryten in any place of scrypture. But we shall not nede mych profe for thys mater / for that god was able to kepe all hys sacramentes and artycles of the fayth wythout wrytynge, Tyndale I wene wyll not deny me.

Now to say that yf he sholde haue lefte some vnwryten, it wolde haue made dowtes and debates and be occasyons of errours and heresyes / and the writyng doth put all thyn­ges oute of dowte, and therfore god hath lefte none vnwry­ten: we se that thys maketh neyther more sure nor lesse. For as well dyd men byleue before the wrytyng those thyn­ges that are now wryten, as euer they dyd synnys / and we beleue now the promyses as well that are vnwryten as any C that are wryten. And the wrytynge taketh not away all the dowtes / but as many ryse thereuppon, and many mo then vppon those thynges that we byleue vnwryten.

For fyrste the credence to be gyuen to the hole boke in whyche they be wryten / hangeth all vppon the same fayth vppon whyche dependen the thynges that are vnwryten. For as I byleue the tone so byleue I the tother. And as one maye by hys owne frowardnes lakke the grace to byleue y ^e thynges vnwryten: so maye a nother by his owne malyce lakke the grace to byleue any parte of the hole boke of holy scrypture that is wrytē / and take it all for fantasyes. And in good sayth I am aferd y ^• so do they whych saye they byleue nothynge els but it. For as for parte of y ^e boke they brynge in que [...]y [...] ̄ / [...] boke of the Machabees, by cause it ma­keth [Page cviii] questyon / as agaynst theyr purpose concernyng purgatory. A And parte they let not mych to deny / as Luther doeth the epystle of saynte Iamys, bycause it speketh playnely a­gaynst hys idle workelesse fayth.

Now in that partes whyche they graunte for scrypture: yet taketh it not awaye all the dowtes. But vnto such folke as Tyndale is and Luther, that be so contencyouse: it my­nystreth rather mych mater of dowte and of debate, & that mych more then do the thynges that are obserued wythout wrytynge.

For fyrst they refuse to obserue them, bycause they saye they fynde them not there wryten / & so ryseth that questyon fyrst vppon the wrytynge.

Then yf it be founden there: then dyspute they whyther it be fully founden there / as whyther we fynde there bothe y ^e B token and the thynge betokened. For the sacrament take they but for a bare sygne / and the thynge that is sygnyfyed they call no thynge but Crystes onely promyse. And here make they vppon the wrytynge many greate batayles, to bete downe allmoste all the sacramentes, sauyng scant one and an halfe. Then vppon the letter rayse they many greate errours, and saye the scripture is playne vppon theyr syde. And thys say not onely Luther, Tyndale, and Swynglius with frere Huskyn and hys felowes, agaynst the interpretacyon of all holy doctours and sayntes, and the comen fayth of all trewe crysten people .xv. hundred yere before them: but eche of them selfe also agaynst other amonge them selfe saye and swere that the scrypture is playne for theyr parte.

So that as for necessyte of wrytynge all or any parte cō cernynge C the sacramentes, ceremonyes, or artycles of the fayth, god was not dreuen thereto / nor by the wrytynge be taken awaye the dowtes. But as I wote it well y ^t god had good and greate causes why he caused some thynges to be wryten: so had he causes as good why he lefte some vnwryten. But neyther can Tyndale tell why he sholde wryte all, nor I gyue the rekenynge why he lefte some vnwryten.

To thys wyll Tyndale happely say (for ellys can not I se what he can say) that god hath causyd all his wordes spoken to his chyrche to be wryten in holy scrypture / and hath in the same scrypture gyuen vs playne warnynge that he so hath done / and thereby hath he delyuered vs from dyuerse dowtes though not from all. For all be it y ^e dyuerse dowte [...] [Page cix] A yet ryse vppon the writtynge: we, by his expresse warnyng in wrytynge shewynge that all is wryten / be put oute of all dowte, that we shall byleue nothynge as his worde wherof there is no wrytynge.

Surely yf Tyndale tell me this tale as in dede he doth / for both Luther and he and frere Huskyn and Swynglius, and all the rable of that rascayle / neuer ceace to saye thys / and they fynde folys that byleue them better vppon theyre bare wordes, then they wolde more honeste mē vppon theyr obligacyōs / but now as I say yf Tyndale tell me this tale: I shall by his leue be bolde to denye yt hym / and pray hym onys to proue yt yf he can fynde how. For this I wote well, they haue amonge them made great boste a great whyle / & alwaye promysed that they wyll byeld vppe that towre / and B make yt very strong and sure / and surely so haue they great nede to do, for therein lyeth all the store of all theyr gunne powder, brymstone, pytch, & wyld fyre, that they shote out at the blessed sacramentes of our sauyour Cryste. And as for hytherto, brought they neuer yet so mych good stuffe, as wolde make a tyle pynne to fence theyr fortresse wythall. And what so euer they bryng herafter: they shall make pore paper walles.

But to thentent that they shall not bygyle you: lette vs wyth one worde or twoo put them in remembraunce what thynges they be that they muste nedes proue, and that by playne scripture to / for other profe them selfe wyll none admytte.

Tyndale muste proue me fyrst therfore by playne & euy­dent C scrypture, that all the wordes necessarye to remayne & be knowen, whych our sauyour hym selfe and his apostles tought ones withoute wrytynge: all those he hath caused to be by them and his euangelistes wryten, preserued, and kepte, in playne and euident scripture. when Tyndale hath proued this, for whych I dare geue hym respyte tyll domes daye: then muste he yet by playne and euydent scrypture profe me farther lo / & for the profe therof though the poyn­tes be but easy, let hym take yet his tyme fyftene dayes af­ter, wythin whyche he muste I saye by playne and euydent scrip [...] p [...]ofe me farther yet of these two thynges one / that is to wy [...] [...]ther that euery necessary worde whych god hath spoken by hymselfe and his holy spyryte vnto his chyrche, synnys the d [...]th of his .iiii. euangelystes and his .xii. apost­les / [Page cx] he hathe caused to be also secretly sette in and wryten A to these bokes whych Tyndale agreeth for holy scrypture / or ellys muste he profe me by playne and euydent scripture, that not wythstandynge his promyse made vnto his chyrch in his apostles dayes, that he wolde wyth his holy spyryte speke to his chyrch hym self and dwell therwyth and teache yt all trewth from tyme to tyme all dayes euen to the day of dome: yet as sone as he saw his apostles dede, & no mā that herde hym left to bere vs wytnesse what he sayde / he bygan to go from his worde agayne, & sware that he wold eyther no lenger dwell here wyth his chyrch / or yf he cam, yt shold be but a geste wyse / and yet wold he play mūme to, and ney ther by hym selfe nor his holy spyryte vouchsaufe to speke any one worde vnto them, that were at the leste wyse aught worthy the wrytynge but some wanton tryfle. B

Remember nowe good reader that these be the thynges whyche Tyndale hathe to proue. And when he proueth these few thynges / then beleue hym hardely and so wyll I do to. But surely who so byleue hym wyth any lesse / vnder standeth nothynge what the mater meaneth.

Now yet ones agayne lette vs consyder Tyndales olde tyme / in whych he sayth the trew pure preachyng was vsed that is now quyte gone. I wolde aske hym when ended that olde tyme of his / and when beganne his new. He saythe yt hath bene thus as yt is more then this .viii. hundred yeres / and me thynketh .viii. hundred is a very longe nowe. But yet consyder good reader yf the trew preachynge was lefte and gone .viii. yere a go and more: then can he not say nay but that the trew fayth went quyte away therwith / without C whych can be no chyrch of Cryste neyther catholyque nor of electes. And thus doth Tyndale tell vs that this .viii. yere at the laste our lorde hath broke his promyse / by whyche he promysed to be with his chyrch all days to y ^e worldes ende. This man maketh hygh boste of Crystes promyses / & wold with them destroye all vertue safe fayth. And now ye se that playnely he denyeth Crystes promyse to / and wyll I wene at laste denye euen Cryste and all. For as ye se at your eye, he draweth very faste towarde yt.

Now tyll Tyndale therfore haue proued vs these few poyntes y ^t are for theyr falsehed impossyble to be proued: the chyrche shall not nede for his fonde raylynge any thyng to fere, to vse the deuoute sacramētes & ceremonyes taught [Page cxi] A and delyuered thē by god and his holy spyryte. For s [...]yghte wherof the deuyll and his damned spyrytes crye vppon to haue them lefte of / and bere vs in hand that they be frute­lesse. For Tyndale sayth that they neyther tame the flesshe, nor do good to thy neyghbour, nor be honour to god.

But now doth all good crystē people very well perceyue by Crystes owne promyse in the very wryten gospell / that the chyrche of Cryste ys taught by hys holy spyryte, y ^t these sacramentes and ceremonyes do please god. And they per­ceyue and se also that the holy sayntes whyche haue vsed them before our dayes / be now longe a go rewarded in he­uyn wyth god. And they perceyue also that in y ^e vse therof / theyr myndes rysen and be lyfte vppe a lofte in deuocyon to god / and b [...] these thynges and such lyke they perceyue well B that Tyndale doeth but bylye them. For syth goddys spy­ryte hath [...]aught them / they muste nedys be honour to god. And when men come togyther to honour god, eche of them is ꝓfyt [...]le to other / for ellys were theyr assembly togyther in pr [...]your no dyfference from y ^e prayour of one man alone. But when they come togyther to goddys seruyce / the hole company pr [...]eth for the hole presence, and so is eueryche y ^e better for [...]thers praiour / [...] all people the better bothe for the prayou [...] and the sacrament, and euery deuowte obser­ [...]ou [...]s vsed in the chyrche at the dyuyne seruyce.

And it is thyrdely very profytable to the very tamynge [...]f the flesshe [...]lso. For what thynge is there that bet­ter [...] flesshe then the grace of god. Dyd not god [...] [...]a [...]le when he thryes prayed vnto hym to C wythdraw [...] [...]he prykke of the flesshe, 2. Cori. 12 wyth whyche our lord suffered [...] angel [...] of Sathan to vexe hym, leste hys herte [...] waxe prowde in beholdynge the [...] of hys reuelacyons / whyche though [...] for some other kynde of trybulacyon, [...] the very flesshely mocy [...]n [...] not then our lorde I say [...] S [...]ffyseth vnto the my [...] then sy [...]h [...] can better [...]ame the flesshe [...] god / whiche not onely can tame it but also [...] so resysted by the soule, that the [...] to [...]ryte & [...] why shall [...] as the spyryte of good hath [...] whyche obedyently done [Page cxii] wyth deuocyon and with desyre of grate, do stande in the A stede of one of the moste effectuall kyndes of prayour / be profytable to the tamynge of the flesshe? and eyther cause it the lesse to rebelle / or ellys (whyche is yet happely better) strength the soule in suche wyse agaynst the rebellyon of the flesshe, that by the valyaunt resystynge thereof, it may haue the more gloryouse triumphe of the vyctory. And for expe­ryens (let Tyndale say what it please hym) good folke fynd thys in dede / that when they be at the dyuyne seruyce in the chyrche, the more deuowtely that they se suche godly cere­monyes obserued, & the more solempnite that they se therin / y ^e more deuocyon fele they themselfe therwith in theyr owne soulys, and theyr flesshe y ^e more tame and lesse rebellyouse, and farre the better in temper / so that all though they were at other tymes and places in ryght greate rage, yet in the B chyrche at the voyces of Crystes mynysters in the quere / wyth organys and all to gether, & beholdyng the solem [...]ne godly sacramentes, and ceremonyes in theyr syghte, they fele theyr passyons appeased / as dyd kynge Saule in hys ragyouse fury at the sowne of Dauyds harpe.

Now where he sayth that of olde tyme the offycers ap­poynted thereto, prayed in a to [...]g that all folke vnderstode / of whyche poynte Tyndale maketh mych a do, and many tymes he speketh therof, bycause he wolde fayne haue hys false translacyon brought in to the chyrche to be there sayed and songen a goddys halfe: I wyll not saye nay but th [...] in Grece and greate parte of Italy, they bothe sayde in the begynnynge the seruyce of the chyrche i [...] theyr owne tonge. But so dyd they not neyther in Affryke, nor in C Almayne, nor in Spayne, no [...] in Fraunce, [...] in En­glande, nor as I trowe in any place [...] elles, [...] yet were they good men that brought [...] to all these contrees. And sone after also [...] chaunged bothe in Grece and Italy: the [...] [...] the seruyce in the olde langage, w [...]yche [...] people dyd not vnderstande / whiche wolde [...] so many good men so longe suffred so, [...] had [...] requyred of necessyte. And saynt Paule [...] to [...] Corynthyes, wherof Tyndale so myc [...] [...] the cōmodyte of the guyse that then was [...] the C [...]thyes, for the confyrmacyon of hys reason agaynst [...] [...] coude but rede and speke and yet wolde smatet in [...] [Page cxiii] A wyllynge the Corynthyes to labour fyrste for better vnderstandynge, and not therby meanynge that of necessyte the people muste nedes answere all to gether vnto the blessyng of the preste or the byshoppe. whych manner hath peraduenture for some thynge that in progresse of tyme they founde abused therin: ben chaunged in to better / as haue ben dy­uerse other thynges and not wythout the secrete workynge of god.

And surely yf all the seruyce were in englyshe: yet wold yt not therby be mych the more vnderstanden / whyche was all the mater that saynt Paule spake. For many that nowe do vnderstande the laten tonge, do lytle yet vnderstande y ^e sentence, farther then the bare storyes and collettes.

But lyke wyse as in some wordes that remayne styll vn­translated B in to laten / mē vse them with deuocyon, as amen and alleluia, that neuer knowe more of the sygnyfycacyon then that they be holy wordes: so do there many a good mā and good woman bothe saye and here the seruyce of god in the chyrch wyth full great reuerence, and full great deuocyon / and therfore wyth great thāke of god / though they haue yt not in theyr owne vulgare tonge / whych thynge what yt wolde do here god knoweth. But as for Almayne there as yt is so all redy / we se well inough y ^t yt dothe no great good there. For where as the people were fallen all redy to many folde heresyes: they now turne all the swete hony that they fynde in the seruyce, quy [...]e in to the poyson that hath taken vppe theyr hertes before.

And therfore where as Tyndale sayth that there is no­thynge C he [...] in the chyrch amonge vs / but houlynge, buz­synge, and cryenge out, lyke halowyng of the foxe or bay­tynge of berys: yt maye well seme so to Tyndale and suche as he is / but vnto good deuout folke yt semeth farre other wyse.

But in theyr chyrch in Almayne, there is a nother man­ner of howlynge and halowynge & cryenge out. For where as we wyth holy wordes and trew fayth hawle and halowe out the false fox, and bayte out the rugged bere the deuyll: you Tyndale in your chyrches of heretyques, crye oute as lowde as we and lowder to / for ye crye out men and women and all. [...] with your heresyes hawle out all sayntes & bayte [...] holy sacramentes and [...] oute god & all.

If [...] that [Page cxiiii] is peraduenture mysse vsed in some places / where happely A the fasshyon is more ruffelynge and in lesse moderacyon & sobernesse, then were conuenyent for mouynge men to de­uocyon: as euyll as I lyke the man in such thynges as he sayth nought, that is almoste in all / yet wolde I fynde no faute wyth hym in that he sayed well. But nowe he saythe not that some such thynges be misse orderd somewhere / but that there is none other.

As for songe I se not why he sholde vtterly dysprayse in goddes seruyce / whyche was a thynge not onely vsed in the olde law but the new to, as well appereth by saynte Paule in his fyrste epystle to the Corinthyes. As for harpes and instrumentes of musyke / the scrypture sheweth yt openly both in the psalmes and many other places of scrypture / bysyde dawnsynge to, Psal. 150 1. Paralip. 13 2. Regum. 6 whych is more then men vse here now. B

But Tyndale can be pleased wyth no fasshyon neyther cathedrall chyrch, nor paryshe chyrch, nor chapell, nor monkes, nor freres, nor nōnes, neyther Grenewych, Syon, nor charterhouse. If the quere be lowde: then they crye out. If they synge any thynge: yet they halow and bayte. If they do but saye so [...]e: yet they buzse / so that I se well no fasshy [...] can please Ty [...]le but his owne: for as he, neyther cryeth oute, nor haloweth, nor bayteth, nor b [...]zseth in any seruy [...]e sayeng. For as th [...]y saye y ^t know hym: he sayth none at allꝭ neyther matens, euyns [...]nge, nor masse / nor commeth at no chyrche but eyther to gase or talke.

But good crystē people whom he belyeth and sayth that they wene no m [...]n may pr [...]y but at chyrch: they praye both at c [...]yrch and at home / but yet more gladly at [...]yrche. For C th [...]u [...] they [...] well that in [...]oydynge of vayne glorye [...]word taught vs to praye in oure chamber: yet shewed he [...] spec [...] ly deputed to prayour. And yt is none hyprocrysye to [...] there [...] yt is to praye in the [...]trete. For when they pr [...]e in the [...]hyrche they do but as other folke.

[...] Matth. 21 [Page cxv] A so in the playne lytterall sence robbe oute the relyques and ornamentes of the chyrch to, pollute and myssespende them in prophane vses to fyll theyr belyes and couer theyr pok­ky scabbed skynnes wythall, Danielis .5 mych worse then kynge Bal­thazare abused the halowed vesselles of the temple, to serue his owne prowde execrable glotony.

And when they haue thus robbed y ^e chyrches: then lodge they formore dyspyghte theyre frerys and theyr nonnes in them / and of an halowed chyrche they make a stynkyng ste­wys. And this is yet one sygnifycacyō more that Tyndales mayster hath made a chyrche to sygnyfye scilicet a bordele for brothelys anglice a stewys / whyche sygnifycacyon also Tyndale hath here lefte out.

Tyndale C

To this an [...]wereth Tyndale and sayth, yf this worde congregacyon were a more generall terme then this worde chirche: yt hurteth not, for the circu [...] ­staunce doth euer declare what thynge is ment thereby.

More.

If the settyng of the cyrcūstaunce make all well inoughe he nedeth not mych to care what worde he chaunge [...] nor how. For he maye set suche cyrcumstaunces of [...] de­uyce / that he maye make men perceyue w [...]at h [...] meaneth. For so he maye translate the worlde in to [...] [...]o [...]eball yf he ioyne therwyth certeyne [...], and saye this rownderollynge foteball that [...] vppon [...] sayle vppon, in the people whereof there is no [...] stabylyte, and so forth a greate longe tale / wyth [...]staunces [Page cxvii] A he myght as I say make any worde vnderstanden as yt lyke hym selfe, what so euer the worde byfore sygny­fyed of yt selfe. But surely the worde congregacyon wyth the circunstaunces in the texte: wolde not haue serued whē he translated yt fyrste to make the englyshe reader to take it for the chyrch / no more then idolys for ymages, or ymages for idoles as he translateth in lykewyse, or repentynge for doynge penaūce whych he chaungeth to. But ma [...]y he hath added vnto his translacion such circūstaunces synnys, that the order of pre [...]thed is ryght nought / but that euery man, woman, and chylde is as very a preste as a preest in dede / & that euery man & woman may consecrate the body of Criste and say masse as well as any preste, and here confessyon & assoyle as well as maye a preste / and that there is no dyffe­rence B bytwene other folke and prestes, but all one congregacyon and company wythout any diffeerce saue an appoyntement to preache / and also that the comen knowen people of all crysten realmes, clergye, laye people, and all, be not the chyrche nor be no parte of the chyrche, bycause they vse sa­cramentes and ceremonyes and diuine ser [...]yce in chyrches / but that the chyrch is a secrete congregacyon of vnknowen chosen heretikes, scatered abrode in corners, and studyenge to destroye the chyrche.

These circumstaunces in dede make men to ꝑceyue and vnderstande, what Tyndale meaneth by thys worde con­gregacyon put in hys t [...]anslacyon in the stede of chyrche. And they p [...]cyue clerely by these cyrcum [...]aunces, that he chaunged that worde of purpose to set forth those he [...]esyes C of hys wythall / as boldely as he now sayth [...]ay. But all his glose is therin that he wyll saye he taketh than for none he­resyes. But on the tother syde all good faythfull people do, and therfore they call y ^e chyrch the chyrch styll, and wyll not agre to ch [...]nge the olde chyrch for his new congregacyon, but burne vppe his bokes that so calle [...] [...] & who so wold so begynne to call yt, wold and well myght begynne to call [...] hereteque, for his de [...]ytynge in the imi [...]cyon of here­ty [...], and his euyll appetyte to sp [...]ke after an heretyques [...]

[...]

Tyndale. A

For whereso euer saythe he that I maye saye a congregacyon / there I maye say a chyrch also / as the chyrch of the deuy [...]l, the chyrch of Sathā, the chyrch of wreches, the chyrche of wykked men, the chyrch of ly [...]rs, and a chyrch of Turkes thereto.

More.

This is lustely sayde of Tyndale add lyke a man. But yt pleaseth hym not to consyde [...] that I sayed y ^t this worde congregacyon is indyffere [...] vnto Turkes and crysten men and vnto all othe [...] companyes and a cōpany of cristen men, so that yt as well sygnifyeth a companye of Turkes as of crysten men / and that this worde chyrch doth sygnifye a cō ­pany of crysten people, and is not indyfferent to a company of Turkes and of crysten men. And I sayed and yet I say, that this is trew of y ^e vsuall sygnifycacyon of these wordes B them selfe in the englyshe tonge, by the comē custume of vs englyshe peple, that eyther now do vse these wordes in our langage, or that haue vsed byfore oure dayes. And I saye that this comen c [...]stume and vsage of speche is the onely thynge, by whyche we knowe the ryght and proper sygnifycacyon of any worde / in so mych that yf a worde were take [...] oute of l [...]te [...] french, or spaynishe, & were for lakke of vnderstandynge of the tonge from whense yt cam, vsed for a no­ther thynge in englyshe then yt was in the formare tonge: then sygnyfyeth it in england none other thyng than as we vse yt and vnderstande therby, what so euer yt sygnifye any where elles. Then saye I now that in England this worde cōgregacyon dyd neuer sygnyfye the number of crysten people as cristen pe [...]le, wyth a connotacyon or consyderacyon C of theyr fayth o [...] crystendome / no more then this worde as­semble, whych [...]ath bene taken out of the frenche, and now is by custume b [...]c [...]men englyshe / as cong [...]egacyon is out of the latyne. A [...]d yet I denye [...]ot but vnder those wordes both twayne may be c [...]isten men spoken of. For euery asse [...]blye and congregacyon in crysten realmes / is comē [...] made of crysten pe [...]ple. But they be not there called cong [...]egacyō or [...]ssemble, bycause th [...] [...]e crystened / but [...] be so cal­led though they were Iewes or Saracēs, though they [...] so knowen and [...]welled in cryst [...]nd [...]me. I say [...]w in lykewyse that this worde chyrche [...] hath bene vsed to [...] other companye then [...] crysten [...]d in comen spe [...]he [...] realme. And for this cause, and yet most [...] [Page cxix] A of Tyndals euyll entent / I sayed and yet saye that he dyd noughte in the chaūge of chyrche for congregacyō, an holy worde for a prophane as farreforth as they both sygnyfye in our englysshe tonge, in to whyche Tyndale made hys translacyon.

Thys was and is the thyng that I sayed and say. Now in sayenge thys / I do not saye vntrew, though Tyndale be at hys lybertye to call a chyrche what hym lyste. For neuer [...]ayed I the contrary, but y ^e Tyndale where so euer he maye saye a congregacyon there he maye saye a chyrche to. For though none englysshe men be wonte to speke so, nor in the comune spech the worde sygnyfyeth not so, nor of y ^e chyrche that he sholde in his translacyō haue ment of, no good man wyll saye so: yet may Tyndale saye so, the chyrche of Sa­than, B the chyrche of wretches, the chyrche of wykked men; the chyrche of lyers, and a chyrche of Turkys to / and yet & he lyste he maye set to it the chyrche of heretykes, and y ^e chyrche of deuyls to.

But now though Tyndale may thus saye for hys plea­sure whyche I deny not: yet can he not saye that thys is the proper sygnyfycacyon of that worde, whyche is the thynge that a translatour must regarde. But it is a certey [...]e fygure and maner of spekynge, by whyche men vse amonge to ex­presse a thynge by hys contra [...]y / as a man myghte say this is the wysdome of a fole / thys is the trouth of a false shrew / thys is the fayth of an heretyke. Thus may Tyndale abuse the holy name of chyrche to any lewde thynge that he lyste / but thys is not the parte of a tr [...]nslatour.

C But Tyndale now to conuycte me clerely by lernynge & reason dowble cōfyrmed w [...]h scrypture: sheweth hym selfe in few wordes that he bothe lakketh lernynge and reason, & shamefully abuseth the scrypture. These are his wordes.

Tyndale.

M. More muste nedys [...] haue ecclesia translated thorow oute all the new test [...]ment by thi [...] [...] chyrche) that chyrch is as comen as [...]clesi [...]. Now is eccle [...]i [...] a greke [...]rde, and was in vse byfore the tyme of [...], and taken for a cong [...]eg [...]cyon amonge the Hethen, where no [...] [...] or of Cryste. And also Luke hym selfe vseth ecclesia for­ [...] of Hethen people [...] thryes in one chapyter, euen in [...] Demetrius the goldsmyth o [...] syl [...]rsmyth had gathered a [...].

More. A

Let vs now bygynne at the fyrste pece & ye shall se what he hath / M. More muste nedes graunte that chyrche is as comen as eccle­sia, yf he will haue this worde ecclesia thorowe oute all the new testament trans­lated by this worde chyrche.

Fyrst I say that mayster More must not nedys graūte thys to Tyndale neuer a whytte. For yf he turne it from a condycyonall proposycyon in to an affyrmatyue antecedent and consequent: it shall sone be shewed hym that hys consequent were possyble to be false and hys antecedent trewe. For it myghte be that thys worde ecclesia dyd sygnyfy m [...] thynges then the wryters of the new testament had occasyō to speke of wythin y ^• same. And then though I wolde graūt vnto Tyndale that thys worde ecclesia sholde thorowout the new testament be translated by this word chyrch: yet must B I not nedys be dreuen to graūte hym for all that, that chyr­che were as comen as eccle [...]ia, bycause it sholde not yet syg­nyfye those other sygnyfycacyons of ecclesia that were not spoken of wythin the newe testament. And thus where Tyndale wolde vppon suche an antecedent bynde me by and by of necessyte to hys consequent: it appereth that though I graunted hym the tone / I must not nedys for all hys great worde graunte hym the tother at all.

But now though I must not nedys yet wyll I graunte hym of courtesye / that yf I wyll haue ecclesia translated thorow out all the new testament by thys worde chyr [...]he [...] y ^• then I muste nedys graunte thys terme chyrche to be as comen, and sygnifye as large and as many th [...]ges as this terme ecclesia. But now when I that must not nedys graūte C thys to Tyndale: Tyndale may not chose but must nedys graunte me thys agayne, that yf I wyll not haue ecclesia thorow out the new testament translated by thys word c [...]che y ^• then Tyndale in all hys gay tale telleth vs nothy [...]e to purpose. But that argument is now lyke as yf he wolde haue argued thus: If mayster More wyll graun [...] me that euery horse is a goose: then must he nedys gr [...]nte me that euery mare must haue a gander to get her [...] [...]ole. For I nede not to graunte hym the thy [...] that he [...]pposeth.

Now tell I Tyndale that in no wyse I [...]yll not haue it so / and that I neuer tolde hym that [...] haue so. [...]u [...] I saye playnely that yf he sh [...]l [...]e tho [...] [...]o [...]t [...] the [...] stament translate thys worde e [...]clesia by thys worde [...] [Page cxxi] A I saye that he sholde translate it very naught.

And for bycause that Tyndale eyther euyll perceyueth my wordes, or elles euyll remēbred them / or fynally which is moste lykely, wolde wyllyngly make the reader to take them wronge: I wyll desyre the reader to loke vppon the place hym selfe, which is y ^• .viii. chapyter of the thyrd boke / and there shall he fynde that I fynde the faute, not in that he translateth this worde ecclesia sometyme in to this worde congregacyon, but that he chaungeth this worde chyrch in to this worde congregacyon, that is to say, that he transla­teth this worde ecclesia in to this worde cōgregacyon, in such places as he shold haue trāslated yt in to this word chyrch / that is where so euer he hath put this worde congregacyon for the companye of crysten people / for that companye is in B englyshe sygnyfyed and of olde hath ben by this holy word chyrche and neuer by this worde congregacyon.

This is the faute that I fynde, and tell Tyndale in that chapyter good and playne causes wherfore, whyche Tyn­dale here letteth slyppe.

But I wolde in no wyse that as Tyndale taketh me / ec­clesia sholde alwaye be translated by this worde chyrche, for that were also wrong. For trewth it is that ecclesia sygnifyeth in the greke tonge a congregacyon, wythout respecte of ey­ther good or bad crysten or vncrysten. For Tyndale sayth therin trewth, that the worde ecclesia was vsed a thousande yere before crystendome byganne as the bokes proue. But yt wyll be hard to proue & warraunt that this word chyrch was vsed for any congregacyon byfore cri [...]tendome began, C or y ^• euer it sygnifyed any cogregaciō other then crystē. And therfore his reason groūded vppō this worde ecclesia is lytle worth / syth it procedeth not in lykewyse in this word chyrch

And yet toūchynge this worde ecclesia/as connynge as Tyndale wold seme therin wyth his greke & all: he semeth bu [...] porely to perceyue yt. For ye shall vnderstand that this worde ecclesia in the greke tonge dyd not sygnyfye euery man [...]upany or congregacyon, nor sygnyfyed not all the cytesay [...] of a [...]y cytye, wyth that respecte that they were cy­te [...]s of [...]hat [...]yty, or that they were gathered for playeng or [...] any such other ca [...]se: but onely these con­gr [...]ga [...] [...] [...]ere gather [...]d to g [...]ther to cōmen vppon [...] eyther aboute the comen [...] peace or wa [...]re or some [Page cxxii] other commodyte, or for pryuate folkes besynes in such places A as all the comen people were iudges, as mych was vsed in Grece and sometyme in Rome to, and was as ye wolde saye the assemblye of the court or the comen counsayle.

Now for as myche as crysten people dyd resort to gether amonge them selfe to prayour and preachyng, and makyng of good ordynaunces delyuered them by the apostles: thys name of ecclesia was applyed vnto y ^• cōgregacyon of the crysten company. And though yt beganne of such assembles together: yet afterwarde yt obtayned also, bothe amonge the Grekes and Latines crystened, to sygnyfye the crysten folk whyther they were at chyrch or at home, and to sygnyfye also the vnyuersall nomber of all crysten people thorow oute all the world / where as it sygnifyed no such maner of thyng among the paynyms byfore, but onely theyr seuerall assembles B such as I byfore descrybed you, and whych was in la­ten called concio. And yet toke the laten chirch the greke word ecclesia of the greke chyrch that beganne byfore them / and neuer vsed this worde concio, whych sygnyfyed amonge the la­tine paynyms, both the congregacyon or assembly, and the oracyon also that any man pronounced among them in the same assembly.

Now may ye perceyue that Tyndale wyth all his greke tolde you but a lame tale. For he telleth you not what man­ner of congregacyon ecclesia dyd sygnyfye in the greke / but mysse taketh yt to sygnyfye euery manner of congregacyon at auenture.

And by this ye maye also perceyue how lytle yt maketh for his purpose, that saynte Luke wherof Tyndale so bos­teth C calleth ecclesia thryes in one chapyter of the actes, the cō gregacyon that was gathered in Ephese agaynste saynte Paule. For that was suche a congregacyon as I tell you, that ecclesia properly sygnifyed amonge y ^• paynyms / sauyng that they gathered to gether vppon a rumour and not after theyr customable callynge.

Now though the chyrch was then newly bygonne to be called by the same name of ecclesia, and that after thexample of the tother assembly, and the name not taken from the to­ther assemblye, nor they [...] assembly for suche maters called by none other: how wolde Tyndale haue had saynte Luke tell the tale but by suche wordes as then represented the mater? But that maketh nothynge for his purpose, but [...] [Page cxxiii] A agaynste yt. For syth that this worde ecclesia, dyd there sy­gnyfy that congregacyon of the Ephesyans whyche were paynyms / and therfore in that place ought not to be trans­lated by this word chyrch, whych sygnifyeth onely a cristen cōgregacyon and not a cōgregacyon of paynyms: so shuld ecclesia in lyke wyse whereso euer yt sygnyfyeth a crysten congregacyon, be translated by this worde chyrch / whyche is & euer hath ben the worde that synnes crystendome fyrste be­ganne amonge englyshe men hath alway serued therfore / & not be translated by this worde cōgregacyon, whych word of congregacyon is a worde of latine, and sygnyfyeth a sort gathered to gether in to one floke, as they speke, in gregem oui uin, gregem gruum, gregem anserum. And so whē Tyndale hath all sayed and all done / this worde congregacion, excepte some B specyall places where they haue by custome appoynted it to sygnyfye some sorte of men, as in some vnyuersyties yt sy­gnifyeth theyr assembles: ellys where no such custome hath appropred yt to any specyall manner of congregacyon / the terme congregacyon absolutely sette, sygnifyeth no more a companye of crysten men, then a fayre flokke of vncry­sten geese.

But yet the chaunge of the worde, yf Tyndale had done it eyther of chaunce or of purpose for hys pleasure, and for none euyll purpose: I wolde neuer haue spoken worde a­gaynst it. But for as mych as I perceyue y ^• he hath ben with Luther, and was to at the same tyme when he so translated it / and that I knewe well the malycyouse heresyes that Lu­ther began to brynge forth: therfore muste I nedys mysse­truste C hym in the chaunge [...]

And now I saye that euyn of hys owne wordes spoken here / ye maye in hys trans [...]acyons perceyue hys cancred mynde. For he sayth that Demetrius had gathered a com­pany agaynst Paule for prechynge agaynste ymages. Here may y ^e crysten reader well ꝑceyue the poyson of thys serpēt. It is to no man vnknowen that all good crysten people do bothe abhorre the Idols of the false Paynyme goddes, and honour also the ymages of Cryste and oure lady and other holy sayntes. And as they call the tone sort ymagys: so call they the tother sorte Idollys. Now where as saynte Paule preched there agaynste idols: cometh thys good man and sayth he preched agaynste ymages.

And as he sp [...]keth here / euyn so he translateth. For in y ^• [Page cxxiiii] fyfte chapyter of saynte Paule to the Corynthyes, where A saynte Paule sayth I haue wryten to you that ye company not togyther, yf any that is called a broder be a fornycatour or couetouse or a worshypper of idols: there trāslated Tyndale, or a worshypper of ymages / bycause he wolde haue it seme that the apostle had in that place forbodē crysten men to worshyppe any ymages / and that who so worshypped any ymages, men sholde not company wyth hym. Here ye maye se the synceryte and playne menynge of the mannes translacyone.

Now seeth he well inough, that saynte Paule spake not of ymages but of idols / and he perceyued both that he so dyd, and also wherfore he so dyd, by hys other wordes wryten in the tenth chapyter of the same pystle / where saynt Paule spekynge of the meate offred vnto idols whyche he wolde y ^• B crysten men sholde forbere, sayth in thys wyse: what say I then that the idoll is any thynge, or that it whyche is offred to idols is any thynge? Nay, but I saye that those thynges whyche the Paynyms offer / they offer to deuyls and not to god, and I wolde not that ye sholde haue any felysshyppe wyth deuyls.

Thys onely texte of saynte Paule is inough to answere all the hole hepe of heretyques, that barke agaynste holy ymagys that good men honour for goddys sake. For saynt Paule here sheweth that the cause why the worshyppynge of idols was vnlefull amonge the gentyles or Paynyms / was bycause that the worshyppe y ^• was done to those idols, was done to deuylys. And why, but for bycause that it was done to those idols for the loue and honour that they bare C to those deuyls, whom they called goddes, and whom those idols represented.

But so it is on the tother syde, that good folke whyche worshyppe ymages of Cryste and hys sayntes: do worshyp therby Cryste and hys sayntes whome those ymagys represente. wherfore it foloweth that lyke wyse as the p [...]yms worshyppers of idols dyd euyll in the worshyppynge of them, bycause that in the worshyppynge of them they wor­shypped deuyls: ryght so do the crysten men well in y ^• wor­shyppynge of ymages, bycause th [...]t in the worshyppyng of ymages they worshyppe Cryste and hys holy sayntes. And now ye se good crysten readers that thys one place of say [...] Paule so playnly reproueth all these heretykes that [...] [Page cxxv] A agaynst ymagys / that sauyng they be [...]hamelesse, they shold neuer loke any man in the face for shame.

But Tyndale to blynde the reader wyth / hath corrupted in his translacyon all this place of saynte Paule also, and hathe in euery place put oute idole and sette in ymage / to make the reader wene that saynte Paule speke all this a­gaynste ymages / whych he so speketh agaynst y ^• paynyms idoles, that his reason which he maketh agaynst them, doth op [...]nly commende and conforme the crysten wurshyppynge of holy sayntes ymages. And here maye ye se what a trewe translacyon Tyndales is, and for what purpose he translateth yt false / and god prouydeth that the scrypture which he falsyfyeth, openly fyghteth agaynste hym.

This pageaunt hath he played also shamefully falsyfy­enge B saynt Paule in the secunde chapyter to the Romayns / where sait Paule sayth to y ^• Iewes: Thou abhorrest idols and robbest god of his honour / meanyng that though they abhorted the paynem idoles, & wolde not worshyppe theyr false goddes that were deuyls: yet for all that, they by the brekynge of goddes law wyth theyr euyll lyuyng, they toke away the honour fro god, i [...] causynge hym and his law to be dyshonorably spoken of amonge the paynyms.

Now commeth me Tyndale, and in dyspyght of holy ymages he hath translated that place in this wyse: Thou abhorrest ymages and takest from god his honour. Here ye se Tyndales trewth lo. Dyd saynte Paule say so? dyd saynt Paule meane so? dyd the Iewes abhorre ymages? they ab­horted idoles but not ymages. They abhorred not in y ^• arch C the images of the angeles [...] though the abhorted abrode the idoles of deuyls. But Tyndales translacyon of this place may meruelousely well be sayed vn hym selfe: Thou abhorrest ymages Tyndale and takeste the honour fro god / for thou woldest haue vs set Crystes ymage at nought, whiche wythout goddes disho [...]our we can not do.

what shyft shall Tyndale fynde now? wyll he saye that idoles and ymages be all one, bycause that idoles be a kynd of ymages, and ymage is a terme indyfferent to good and badde. For a man may saye and image of the deuyll as well as an ymage of god.

Tyndale shall I thynke fynde no reader so slē [...]erly wytted to su [...]er hym skape so. For though idoles be of y ^• kynde of ymages / yet syth they be such a specyall kynde, as alway [Page cxxvi] to crysten mēnys eares do sygnyfy euyll ymages & deuelyshe: he A maye not in trāslacyon change y ^e name into y ^e generall, wherby yt may not be ꝑceyued of which kynd he speketh. For this were very nought if he dyd it in fauour of y ^e worse kynd, to make mē wene it were better. And now whē he doth it in hatered of y ^• better kynd to make mē wene it worse / y ^e is to wit in dispyght of y ^e images of god incarnate, & of his holy sayntes, to make thē seme idoles: he doth an hūdred tymes worse. For he were not so wreched by an hōdred fold as wreched as he were / y ^e nedys wolde in his fonde fashyon loue god & the deuyll to gether as he y ^e wold loue neyther nother.

And if y ^e Tyndale wold styffely stykke in this poynt & abide ther by / y ^t his trāslacyon of idole in to ymage is good inough because idols be images: thē syth y ^e deuils be angels as in dede they be by nature, & euyll angels be angels styll / Tyndale maye at his plea­sure trāslate y ^e deuyl in to angell without any other addiciō where B so euer he fynd hym thorow out all the bible. And then shall he do theri as dyd a lyke lerned pste/y ^e thorow out all y ^e gospels scraped out diabolus & wrote Iesus Cristus, bycause he thought y ^e deuyls name was not mete to stande in so good a place. And thus I thynke y ^t euery child may now ꝑceyue / with how litle lernyng & lesse wit, & leste trewth, Tyndale hath translated this word ecclesia in to congregaciō in stede of chyrch / & y ^t he hath so substancyally defended yt, y ^• in the mayntenaunce of one false foly, he is now founden in twayne. For by a lyke maner as he falsely translated ecclesia in to y ^e vnknowen name of cōgregacyon, in such places as he shold haue translated yt in to y ^e holy knowē name of chyrch, & y ^• he this hath done of a malicyouse purpose to set forth his heresy of y ^• secret vnknowē chyrch, wherin is neyther good workes nor sacramentes: so is it now ꝓued y ^t in the same wyse & of lyke malyce, hath he trāslated C idoles in to ymages, vnder the colour of the lykenes of false goddes & deuylles, to make the scripture seme to reproue y ^e godly ymages of our sauyour hym selfe & his holy sayntes. And now v­synge hym self in his trāslacyon in such malycyouse & erronyous fashyon: he cōplayneth y ^t good men haue burned his euyll trans­lated bokes, and wyll not suffer his heresyes to go forwarde.

In the ende of this chapyter Tyndale telleth me, y ^t I haue ben so longe vsed in my fygures of poetry / that whē I erre most, I do now as he supposeth by reason of a lōg custume, byleue my self y ^• I say most trew / or ellys as wise peple whē they daūce naked in a net, byleue y ^t no mā se thē: euē so he saith y ^• I thynke myn errours so subtilly couched, y ^t no man cā spie thē. As for myn errours how subtilly they be cowched I cā not tell / nor what other mē [...]spie I cā not say. But surely if I coud spye any i my writīg my self: I wold not faile both to cōfesse it to god & y ^• world & forsake it. Now [Page cxxvii] A yf I be by custume of poetrye so blynded, that I can not se myne errours but wene that niy lyes were trew: yet yf I fynde any that can shewe them me, I shall sone amende the fawte. But I haue one good lykelyhed that I do not erre or lye after suche fashyon as Tyndale telleth me / in that yf it so were, Tyndale thā that pryeth there vppō so narowly, and wyth suche egles eyen as he hath, were very lykely to spye it / namely syth I go so bare dawnsyng naked in a net. And I am sure yf he spyed any such thynge in me / he wolde of hys charyte be so god to me as to tell me. But surely he hath spyed none yet. For all that he hath hytherto pored out and called myne errours be but hys owne, & tourne vppon hys owne toppe euerychone. And as for my poetry verely I can lytell ellys, & yet not that neyther. But it had ben good B for Tyndales sowle and a thowsande sowles besyde / that he had medled but wyth poetrye in stede of holy scrypture all the dayes of hys lyfe. For of poetrye though there sholde haue comen lytell good / yet coude there neuer haue comen suche an hepe of harme to crysten people, as he hath of hys blynde malyce brought in to this realme by his vntrue trāslatynge, and more vntrew construyng of the holy scrypture of god / moste malycyousely makynge the blessed worde of god, to serue hym for an instrumēt to dryue mē to y ^e deuyll.

And yet yf poetrye be as Tyndale calleth it, nothynge but faynynge and lyenge: then is he connynge inough and can I assure you make as mych poetry vppon any parte of scrypture, as any poete can in englande vppon any parte of Uirgill. And he vseth in his wrytyng mych playne poetrye, C wherwith he daunseth na [...]ed not all in a net / but for y ^• more parte so starke naked wythout any nette at all, that there is not the bredthe of a sylken threde to couer his poetry / of whyche poyntes of hys playne open poetry I haue shewed you some all redy, and shall anon shewe you many mo.

Then he asketh me why I haue not cōtended with Erasmus whom he calleth my derlynge, of all thys longe whyle for translatynge of thys worde ecclesia in to thys worde congregatio. And then he cometh forth wyth hys fete proper taunte, that I [...]auour hym of lykelyhed for makynge of hys boks of Maris in my howse. There had he hyt melo saue for lakke of a lytell salte. I haue not contended wyth Erasmus my derlynge, bycause I found no suche malycyouse entent wyth Erasmus my derlynge, as I fynde wyth Tyndale. [Page cxxviii] For had I fownde wyth Erasmus my derlyng the shrewde A entent and purpose that I fynde in Tindale: Erasmus my derlynge sholde be no more my derlynge. But I fynde in Erasmus my derlynge that he detesteth and abhorreth the errours and heresyes that Tyndale playnely techeth and abydeth by / and therfore Erasmus my derlynge shall be my dere derlyng styll. And surely yf Tyndale had eyther neuer taughte them, or yet had the grace to reuoke them: then sholde Tyndale be my dere derlynge to. But whyle he hol­deth such heresies stylle / I can not take for my derlyng hym that the deuyll taketh for hys derlynge.

Now for hys translacyon of ecclesia by congregatio/hys dede is nothynge lyke Tyndals. For y ^e laten tonge had no laten word byfore vsed for the chyrche, but the greke word ecclesia/therfore Erasmus in hys new translacyon gaue it a laten B worde. But we had in englysshe a proper englysshe worde therfore / and therfore was no suche cause for Tyndale to chaunge it in to a worse. Erasmus also ment none heresye therein as appereth by hys wrytynge agaynste heretykes / but Tyndale entended no thynge ellys thereby as appereth by the heresyes that hym selfe tea [...]heth and abydeth by. And therfore was there in this mater no cause for me to contende wyth Erasmus, as there was to contende wyth Tyn­dale wyth whom I contende for puttynge in congregacyon in stede of chyrch / excepte y ^e Tyndale peraduēture meaneth that I sholde haue ben angry wyth Erasmus bycause that in stede of congregacyon in hys laten translacyon, he hadde not put in our englysshe worde chyrche.

As touchyng Moria in which Erasmus vnder the name C and person of Moria, whyche worde in greke sygnyfyeth f [...]ly / doth merely to wche and reproue suche fawtes and fo­l [...]es as he founde in any kynde of people / perusynge euery state and condycyon spyrytuall and temporall, leuynge all moste none vnto wched / by whych boke Tyndale sayth that yf it were in englysshe, euery man sholde then w [...]ll se that I was then ferre otherwyse mynded then I now wryte: y [...] thys be trew, then the more cause haue I to thanke god of amendemēt. But surely this is v [...]ew. For god be thanked I neuer hadde that mynde in my lyfe to haue holy sayntes ymages or theyr holy relykes out of reuerence. Nor yf there were any suche thynge in Moria: that thyng coude not [...] make any man se, that I were my selfe of that mynde / the [Page cxxix] A boke beynge made by a nother man though he were my derlynge neuer so dere. [...]ow be it that boke of Moria doeth in dede but ieste vppon the abuses of suche thynges, after the māner of the dysours parte in a playe, & yet not so farre ney­ther by a greate deale, as the messenger doth in my dyalog / whyche I haue yet suffered to stande styll in my dyaloge, & y ^t rather yet by the counsayle of other men then of my selfe.

For all be yt that yt be lawfull to any man to mysselyke the mysseuse of euery good thynge / and that in my dyaloge there not onely those euyll thynges rehersed but answered also and soyled / and the goodnes of the thyng self well vsed is playnely confyrmed and proued: yet hath Tyndale by erronyouse bokes in settynge forth Luthers pestylent here­syes, so enuenemed the hartes of lewdly disposed persones / y ^• B men can not almost now speke of such thynges in so mych as a play, but y ^t such euyll herers wax a grete dele y ^e worse.

And therfore in these dayes in which Tyndale hath (god amende hym) wyth thenfeccion of his cōtagyouse heresyes, so sore poysened malycyouse and newfangle folke / that the kynges hyghnes and not wythout the coūsayle and aduyce not of his nobles onely, wyth his other counsaylours attendynge vppon his gracys person / but also of the ryght ver­tuouse and specyall well lerned men of eyther vnyuersyte & other partyes of the realme specyally called thereto, hathe after dylygent and longe consyderacyon hadde therein, ben fayne for the whyle to prohybyte the scrypture of god to be sufferd in englyshe tonge amonge the peoples handes / leste euyll folke by false drawyng of euery good thynge they rede C in to the colour and mayntenaūs of theyr owne fonde fantasyes, and turnynge all hony in to posyn, myght both dedly do hurte vnto theym selfe, and sprede also that infeccyone farther a brode: I saye therfore in these dayes in whyche men by theyr owne defaute mysseconstre and take harme of the very scrypture of god, vntyll menne better amende, yf any man wolde now translate Moria in to Englyshe, or some workes eyther that I haue my selfe wryten ere this, [...]ll [...]e yt there be none harme therin / folke yet beynge (as they be) geuen to take harme of that that is good / I wolde not on [...]y my derlynges bokes but myne owne also, helpe to burne th [...] both wyth myne owne handes, rather then fol­kesh [...] (though thorow theyr own faute) take any harme of them, seynge that [...]se [...]he [...] lykely in these dayes so to do.

[Page cxxx]But now after this Tyndale handeleth me full vncour­tesly / for A he taketh awaye all my thanke and rewarde that I sholde haue had of the spyrytualtye. For he sheweth them that I wrote not my boke for any affeccyon that I bere to them / no more then Iudas bytrayed Cryst for any fauour y ^t he bare to the hygh prestes, scrybes, and pharaseys: but y ^t I dyd the tone as he dyd the tother, for the lucre that shold come therof / after whych he sayth that I so sore hungre, y ^t the good man as my frend prayeth for me that I eat not to faste for chokynge.

Now yf the spyritualtye had ben aboute to haue gathe­red a dysme amonge them and geue yt me: Tyndale here had loste yt me euery peny. But god forgeue the good man and I do. For whē he speketh of my lucre / in good fayth he maketh me laugh / and so I wene he maketh many mo to, B that knowe well god be thanked y ^t I haue not so mych lucre therby, that I stande in so grete parell of chokynge wyth lucre, as Tyndale standeth in daunger of chokynge (god saue the man) wyth the bones of buttred bere.

Now where Tyndale sayth I haue fayntely defended y ^e thynges wherof I wryte: the thynges be stronge inough and lytle nede me to defend them / and also my purpose was not so mych to do that that neded not, that is to wyt to de­fende them / as to proue and make the people perceyue that Tyndale went aboute to brynge in heresyes amonge them. And that nedeth now as lytle / for Tyndale hath proued yt hym selfe.

And so lytle defence suffyseth for any reason y ^t Tyndale layeth agaynste yt. And fynally yf I were faynte therin as C Tyndale sayth: yet is a faynt fayth better then a stronge heresye.

But Tyndale yet for all this as a good godly father of his haboundaunte cheryte, sayth that he charytably dothe ex­horte me in Cryste by the examples of Iudas and Balaam to take hede / and ferther he counsayleth me and my felowes full holyly to awake by tymes ere euer our synnes be rype, leste the voyce of oure wykkednesse ascende vp and awake god out of his slepe to loke vppō vs and to bowe hys earys vnto our cursed blasphemyes agaynst the open trewth / and to sende hys herueste men and mowars of vengeaunce to repe it, excepte we repent and resyste not the spyryte of god, whyche openeth lyght vnto the worlde.

[Page cxxxi] A These wordes when I redde them, semed me so pytthy & so persaunt, set and cowched in suche an hyghe spyrytuall fasshyon / that they made me mych to meruayle what Tyn­dale had spyed in me, and caused me to serche my selfe, to se whyther I had vsed any suche hygh blasphemyes, that the wykkednes therof were lykely to ascende vp in to heuyn & awake god almyghty out of hys slepe. But when I hadde ouer serched all my boke & ransaked vp y ^e very botom of my brest / though I foūde in y ^e tone som prety peccaduliūs, such as I wyll not now confesse to father Tyndale bycause he sayth confessours kepe no counsayle: yet coude I fynde in good fayth neyther in my brest nor in my boke I thāke god any suche hygh blasphemyes as Tyndale so hyghly cryeth out vppon, excepte he call it an hygh blasphemye to call he­resyes B heresyes / whyche I take as helpe me god in my pore conscyence for none hygher blasphemy, then to call a gose a gose. Nor I. fynde no trewth that I neyther blaspheme or onys speke agaynste, excepte Tyndale mene by thys open trewth all the false open heresyes that hym selfe techeth a­gaynste Crystes holy sacramentes. Agaynst whyche kynde of false trewth I no more fere to speke / then agaynst the de­uyll hym selfe that fyrste founde it out. Nor I can not fynde wherein I resyste the spyryte of god in openynge hys lyght vnto the worlde / excepte that Tyndale take for the spyryte of god, the spyryte of the deuyll of hell / and for openynge of lyght vnto the worlde, he take the lyghtesome lanterne of good ensample / by whych the worlde maye se for a shewe of holy matrymony, frere Luther and Cate calate hys nonne C lye luskynge togyther in l [...]chery. Now to resyste thys deue­lysshe spyryte my pore spyryte, for all Tyndales hygh fere­full charge is so lytell afrayed / that I call hartely to y ^e spy­ryte of god to quenche the fowle fyrebronde of that helly lyght, & that so thorowly that the worlde se neuer any suche example more.

And now when that I had thus thorowly serched well my breste and my boke, and saw my conscyence clere, farre out of any suche cause of ieoperdy: then Tyndals terryble exorcysme made me not mych to trymble / syth heretykes haue of olde be wont alwaye to vse suche wordes. But my mind more gaue me to laughe at his hygh solemne charge / wh [...]rby he [...] wyth hys straunge wordes enchaunt and charme [...], and [...] wene he were walkynge [Page cxxxii] downe to helle quykke, yf he made so mych as a mumme a­gaynst A Luthers lechery.

Now where as Iudas and Balaam were not mete samples for me, that bere my self neyther for an apostle nor for a pro­phete: I myghte here laye them bothe well for playne sam­ples to hym that bereth hym selfe for a ryghte apostle that were sent to preche a new fayth to thys realme, and a newe euangelyste to, that maketh with his false translacyō newe scrypture of hys owne / & very proprely playeth he the parte of Balaam to, in that he laboreth to brynge maledyccyons vppon Hierusalem, that is the catholyke chyrche of Cryste. And here myghte I brynge hym other samples in also very mete for the mater of menne mych lyke hym selfe, heretykes I mene of olde tyme & some of later dayes not longe afore Luther. And when I had rehersed vp a Ragmans roll of a B [...]able of heretykes, and shewed a shrewed sorte that cam to sorow for theyr synne: then myght I lo yf I had Tyndals spyryte, spet out scrypture apace & exhorte Tyndale agayn holily, to take hede & beware by tyme lest like heresies & like malyce brynge hym to lyke myschyefe. But as for me I can no suche facyon / and therfore lettyng all such hygh processe passe, of rype synnys, and ascendyng to heuyn and wakyng god out of slepe, and set hym on husbandry, and dryue hym to heruest wyth mowers of vengeaunce and repers of rype synnys, leuynge Tyndale in hys vengeable parables: I cā no more I, but praye god amende hym and make hym a good man.

Tyndale.

ANother thynge whych he re [...]eth is, that I interprete this greke worde presbyteros by this word se [...]io [...]. Of a treuth seniour is no very good englyshe, though seniour and iunior be vsed in the vniuersyties: but there came no better in my mynde at that tyme. How be it I spyed my faute s [...]s, longe yere M. More told it me, and haue mended it in all the workes whyche I seus made, and call yt an elder.

More.

Tyndale in thys chapyter at great length declareth f [...]r his excuse, four fayre vertues in hym self / malice, ignor [...] [Page cxxxiii] A errour, and foly. For in hys longe babelynge he hath neuer a clause but it falleth in one of these foure, and some one in all foure as ye shall se ferther in hys wordes folowynge.

Here in the begynnynge leste he sholde seme to haue ler­ned the knowledge of his ignoraunce by my monycyon: he sayth y ^t he perceyued hys faute hym selfe byfore & amended it to. For where as for lakke of fyndynge a better englysshe worde he sayth that he had translated thys worde presbiteros in to thys worde senyours in englysshe: he hath now amended it and made it elders.

Here hath he done a grete acte, now that he hath at laste founde out elder. He hath of lykelyhed ryden many myle to fynde out that. For that worde elder is ye wote well so straū ge and so lytell knowen, that it is more then meruayle how B that euer he coude fynde it out. And one thynge I promyse you yf it were not worse then senior / he hadde not founde it yet. For thys is a lyke amendynge, as yf he wolde where a man were blynde of the tone eye / amende hys syghte by puttynge out the tother.

Thys word presbiter in the greke, as it sygnifyeth y ^t thyng that men call a preste in englysshe / was called somtyme senior in latyn. But thys thynge that englysshe men call a preste, and that the greke chyrche called presbiter, and the latyn chyr­che also and somtyme seni [...]r: was neuer called elder neyther in the greke chyrch, nor the latyn, nor the englysshe neyther. Now thys beyng thus / iudge good readers your selfe why­ther of two bad, it was not better when he called a preste a senior, by whyche worde it was called somtyme at the leste C wyse in some langage / then when he calleth a prest an elder, by whyche worde it was neuer called nor knowen neyther in one langage nor other. And so ye maye se how wysely by longe leysure and warnynge to, Tyndale hath amended hys mater.

Tyndale.

And in that he maketh heresye of it, to call presbiteros an elder: he condem­neth theyr owne olde latyn texte of heresye also, whiche they vse yet dayly in the chyrche and haue vsed I suppose this .xiiij. hundred yeres. For that texte d [...]th call it an elder lyke wyse.

More.

Se the synceryte and playnnesse of the good man. It is no mayst [...]y for hym to make proper solucyons, yf hym selfe maye make the obieccyons, suche as no man obiecteth nor [Page cxxxiiii] wolde obiecte agaynst hym but hym selfe. For here he sayth A that I make it heresie to call presbyteros an elder, whych thyng I neuer sayed nor thought. But I sayed & saye and trewth I saye, that Tyndale dyd in his englysh trāslacyon chaūge the word of preste in to senior of an heretycall mynde and entent to set forth his heresye / wherby he techeth that presthe [...] is no sacrament.

For as for this worde elder, how coulde I then charge hym wyth yt as an heresye / when he had not then translated elder but senior, tyll now that he hath by lenger laysour a­mendyd yt and made yt worse. So that ye may fyrste here se a pece of his playne poetrye double proued and double re­proued / by whyche he layeth vnto me the thynge that I ne­uer sayed nor had at that tyme eyther cause to saye or occa­syon to thynke vppon. B

Nor nowe I saye not that yt is heresye, yf he haue as he saith translated synnes that tyme presbyteros by this worde el­der: but I say he doth it with the mynde of an heretyque to set forth his heresye. For ellys I wolde not call it heresye, yf one wolde trāslate presbyteros a blok: but I wold say he were a blok hed. And as very a blokhed were he, that wold translate presbyteros an elder in stede of a preste, for that this english worde elder sygnyfyeth no more a preste, then this greke worde presbyteros sygnyfyeth an elder stykke.

And yet this thynge beynge so properly spoken as ye se: he sayth that the olde translacyon in latyne redde in the chyrch this .xiiii. hūdred yere, calleth presbyteros an elder in lyke wyse. whych worde of Tyndale I wolde call a lye / sauynge y ^t yt is more then a lye by a syllable. C

Tyndale.

In the .v. chapyter of the fyrste of Peter, thus standeth yt in the latine text: Seniores qui in vobis sunt, obsecro ego consenior, pasc [...]te qui in vobis est gre [...] Cristi. The elders that are amonge you / I beseche whyche a [...] elder also, that ye fede the flocke of Criste whych is amonge you. There is presbyteros called an elder.

More.

Herd ye reder euer such a nother? Is presbyteros here called an elder in y ^e olde latine trāslacyō? I fynde there this word seniores, where the greke chyrch vsed in theyr langage presbyteros. But as for this word elde [...] which Tindale sayth is y ^e old latyne translacyō: he were lyke to pore out his eyen vpp [...] latyne boke ere he fynde y ^• englyshe word elder th [...], [...] [Page cxxxv] A he cause yt to be wryten in hym selfe. And yet he layeth lyke textes .iii. or foure / some in y ^e pystles of saynt Iohn̄, & some in the Actes, where he fyndeth in stede of presbyteros this word seniores and natu maiores/and alwaye he setteth thereto, lo here is presbyteros called an elder and an elder in byrth, as though this latine word seniores or natu maiores were this englysh word elder / where he sayth that presbyteros is called elder in the olde trāslacyon / whych as ye se muste nedes be false: but yf this englyshe worde be in that latine boke, and that he make en­glyshe latine and latine englyshe.

But now leste he call the redargucyon of his foly sophystycacyon / lette vs diuine for hym what he myght meane. He wyll happely say, that he meaneth y ^t this greke word pr [...]s [...]yteros is in the texte that he hath alleged called by the olde translatour B seniores, and seniores sygnyfyeth elder or elders. And so though this worde elder be not in the latine trāslacyon, yet syth that latine worde is there that sygnyfyeth in laten the same thynge that this worde elder sygnyfyeth in englyshe: we can not blame hym for translatynge presbyteros in to thys worde elder / but yf we blame in lyke wyse the translatour, for translatynge presbyteros in to this worde seniores.

Fyrste yf I sayed that the olde translacyon were in that poynt not so well as yt myght haue ben / I sholde not saye so alone. And Erasmꝰ whom Tyndale calleth my derlyng, and whom hym selfe doth for all that in his own trās [...]acyon preferre byfore the olde / doth as well in the sayed pystle of saynt Peter, as in the sayd .xx. chapiter of thapostles Actes, not onely kepe styll the greke worde presbyteros, but sheweth C also that the old translatour translated it not well, bycause he translated there thys worde presbyteros into thys worde s [...] ­niores, and in the tother place into maiores natu/but sayth that he shold rather haue kepte styll the worde presbyteros vnchaunged, bycause that worde is yt y ^t sygnyfyeth authoryte wyth the grekes / where seniore [...] in latine sygnyfyeth but theyr age, and all were not olde as appered by Timothe. And for that cause in the sayed place of saynte Peter his pystle / saynt Hierome amendeth that olde translacyon and kepeth presbyteros styll, recitynge saynte Peter in this wyse: Presbyteros qui sunt [...]n vobis obsecro ego compresbyter. wherein saynt Hierome was rather cont [...] to ioyne the latine cōiunccyon with the greke word, and [...]all y [...] compresbyter/then to chaunge that worde sygnyfy­enge the [...] in to seni [...]res and consen [...]or, sygnifyeng but y ^e age. [Page cxxxvi] For amonge the latines senior sygnyfyed none other / but a­monge A the grekes presbyteri was the name that many tymes sygnyfyed rulers and gouernours.

Now yf we lyste we may yet excuse the olde translatour / whych how sone after Crystes deth he translated it who can tell? And then when the latine chyrche had no laten worde for the crysten prestes all redy receyued & vsed / what blame was he worthy that toke that worde not contynually but a­monge, whyche of all the latine wordes semed to hym to go nexte the sygnifycacyon of presbyteros at that tyme. And y ^t was as hym thought seniores, in whych word yet the chyrch neuer folowed hym though / but though they redde his trāslacion openly in diuine seruyce, yet neyther in theyr wrytynge nor preachynge wold they take vp that worde and call a preest seniour / as appereth by the bokes and sermons of all holy B doctours synnys.

And therfore Tyndale is wythoute excuse, whyche hath translated presbyteros by this englyshe worde elders / a worde vnknowen amonge englyshe men to sygnyfye prestes / and amonge whom this word preste was y ^e proper englesh word well knowen, and had serued in that sygnifycacyon so ma­ny hundred yere afore Tyndale was borne.

Also go me to the place whych Tyndale alledgeth in the fyrste pystle of saynt Petre: Seniores qui sunt in vobis obsecro ego consenior pascite qui in vobis est grezem Christi. whych place I take for en­sample. For where he layeth two places of the pystles of saynt Iohn̄, and one in the .xx. of the Actes / all be for one purpose, and this one place answerd, answereth them all: I saye therfore that Tyndale hath euen here in this his newe C boke translated that same place wronge, and all the rema­naunt in lyke wyse. And that wyll I proue partely by Tyndales owne wordes, whych in this boke folowe the transla­cyon of those wordes.

The elders that are amonge you, I beche whych am an elder also, that ye [...]ede the flocke of Cryste whych is amonge you. There is presbyteros calle [...] an elder And in that he sayth fede Cristes flocke / he meaneth euen the ministers that were chosen to teache the people and to enforme them in godd [...] worde and [...] saye persones.

More.

Lo Tyndale here shewed hym selfe that by this worde se [...]niores, be there vnderstanden the minysters that were ch [...] to teache peple. Then say I that yf this word seniores [...] [Page cxxxvii] A in that sygnyfycacyon there / Tyndale sholde not translate yt in to this englysh worde elder, whych sygnifyeth not the offyce but the age here. And this is I say trew / all were it so that Tyndales false heresy were trew, that holy orders were no sacrament at all / but a bare offyce. For yf yt were, but in a prophane comen storye, in whych men maye bolde­ly be in the translacyon at myche more lybertye then in holy scrypture. yet were he a noughtye trans [...]atour that wolde translate a thynge in to suche a worde, as in the tonge in to whyche he translateth, is not vnderstanden in that sygny­fycacyon.

As yf percase a man wolde translate a latine cronycle in to englyshe, in whyche were mencyon made of some thynge done in London / yf he founde in that cronycle the aldermen B called by the name of senatores, or peraduēture seniores: he shold yet in his englyshe translacyon call them not senatours nor elders neyther, syth neyther of those two wordes is in en­glyshe the name by whych the aldermen of London be kno­wen / but he muste therfore translate senatores and seniores also in to aldermen in his englyshe translacyon. And ferther yf he there founde this worde senatus Londinensis: he shold not trāsite yt in to this worde senate / but eyther into mayre and al­dern [...]en, or percase (yf the circūstaunce of the mater so lede hym to yt) in to mayre, aldermen, and comen counsayle.

And therfore as ye playnely se / Tyndales defence of his translatynge presbyteros in to elders is as feble to stykke to, as is an olde roten elder stykke, & though yt were but in a pro­phane storye.

C Now where yt is in the holy storye of Crystes gospell: what manner a thyng is it to trāslate elder in stede of prest, whych worde elder in engleshe was neuer so taken nor vn­derstanden / and thus to do wythout necessyte, hauyng this worde preste so comenly knowen and so longe.

[...] d [...]th he not by the same re [...]on chaunge bysshoppe in to ouerseer, & de [...]k [...] in to seruer [...] both whych he myght [...] [...]all do as preste in to elder. And then muste he wyth his tr [...] ̄ [...]l [...]yon make vs an englysh vocabularye of his owne deuyse [...]. And so wyth such prouisyon he maye chaūg chynne into [...] b [...]l [...]e in to bakke, & euery worde into other [...], yf all Englande lyste now to go to [...], and ellys not.

Now yf h [...] [...] that wyth suche chaūges he coude [Page cxxxviii] chaunge the names in to the better and shewe vs what the A names sygnyfye / fyrste yf he sayed therein trew, he may tell vs those sygnyfycacyons in a tale bysyde / but he muste in englysshe let englysshe wordes stande in hys englysshe trāslacyon for all that. And yet were out of hys mouthe a ryght good tale euyll worth the herynge / for wyth a lytell hony he mengleth so mych poyson: that rather then to swalowe the tone downe wyth the tother / a man were yet mych better to forbere them bothe. yet setteth me Tyndale one myghty stronge bulwarke to fence in all hys felde, out of whyche he shoteth a sore shot of serpentyns / when he asketh me why the apostles vsed not this greke worde hiereus, or the interpreter this latyne worde sacerdos, but alwaye these wordes presbyteros and senior / by whiche was at that tyme nothynge sygnyfyed other then an elder.

Thys shotte shall I not now mych nede to fere. For lykewyse B as from y ^e shotte of a gonne a man were metely saufe, that had ere the gonne were losed, made a steppe asyde .xv. hundred myle from it: so syth I am stepped now fyftene hundred yere from the apostles dayes, and almost as many from the interpretours tyme, of whose ententes and purpo­ses Tyndale asketh me now the why / I maye saye that I neuer talked so mych with them by mo [...]th, as to aske them the why / and therfore syth they haue not wryten me y ^e why, I am not bounde to tell Tyndale the why.

But I aske of Tyndale no suche farre fet whyes, but a why of hys owne dede. And that syth we now haue, and hundredes of yeres haue had englysshe names inough for such orders of offyces as he translated out of latyn: I aske hym thys why / why dyd he translate the same by thys englysshe C worde elder, whyche nothynge sygnyfyeth the same. And syth that in the tex [...]ys that hymselfe alledgeth, [...]yth [...] the greke worde presby [...]er [...] nor the latyne worde seniores sygny [...]yeth in those places by Tyndales owne confessyon the age [...]ut y ^e offyce: why gyueth he than that englysshe wo [...]e [...] elder in theyr stede, whyche sygnyfyeth not the offy [...] [...] age. For though Tyndale say [...]hat [...] was at that tyme nothynge [...], wherin as to [...]chynge [...] syth hym selfe sayth n [...] [...] (and in that [...] it happ [...]th hym to saye [...] dede y ^t b [...]the pres [...]yt [...]ros & [...] be in those places [...] [...]y [...] the [...] [...] no [...] the age (forels had yonge [...] [...]p­pon [Page cxxxix] A the callynge togyther of presbyteros or seniores, ben lefte vncalled and had leue to byde at home) what so euer moued in the fyrste gyuynge of the name the apostles or the interpre­ter to call the offyce by the name of presbyteros in greke, or seniores in latyne / it was Tyndales parte yet in hys englysshe translacyon to gyue it that englysshe name, by whyche the offyce (were it holy or prophane) was and longe had ben comenly knowen in englande.

And ferther yf no specyall name wolde haue contented hym: yet sholde he then haue called presbyteros the rewlers, gouernours, or offycers, or some suche other englysshe worde whyche sygnyfyeth offyce, rather then to call it elders / by whyche name there is in the englysshe tonge none offyce vnderstanden at all but onely the bare age.

B And thus as touchyng chaūge of presbyteros in to seniores, and hys amendement in to elders, that is to wyt from euyll to wurse: ye se how well he hath quyt hym.

How be it yf he had had in the chaunge none other fawte but foly / it sholde haue ben longe ere I wolde haue gone a­bout to fynde it. But now standeth all y ^e mater in this why­che he slyppeth ouer / that he dyd it of very cākered malyce, by whyche he setteth forth agaynste Cryste and hys chyrche hys dedely malycyouse heresye / wherewyth he wolde make men wene that holy orders were no sacrament. And for that cause he asketh why that the apostles dyd not call y ^e prestes hiereus in greke but presbyteros, whyche sygnyfyed he sayth no­thyng but onely elders. And by this reason wolde Tyndale haue it seme, that the apostles dyd take the crysten prestes C for no more consecrate persons then other crysten men, by­cause they vsed a worde that had none holy sygnyfycacyon.

But Tyndale here though he wynke faste / is not yet so faste a slepe as he maketh for. For yf he lysted to lyfte vp his hed and loke vp a lytell [...]he sholde sone se that hys argumēt were assoyled wyth the tother worde, whyche he hath also [...]ysse translated of lyke malyce ecclesia.

For yf he wyll nedys argue that prestes be no persons cōsecrated, nor theyr order no sacrament, bycause y ^e apostles called them presbyteri/whyche name had at that tyme none h [...]y syg [...]ycacyon in the greke tonge where they toke it: [...] Tyndale well inough (sauynge that he wynketh and wy [...]) that it must nedys folowe, that baptysme were no sac [...]am [...] neyther, bycause the apostles and euan­gelystes [Page cxl] called it baptisma, and in holy scrypture also named y ^e A holy company of baptysed people by this greke word ecclesia/of whyche two wordes baptisma and ecclesia neyther nother had in the greke tonge before, any holy sygnysyfacyon at all, nor sygnifyed there any other thyng thē y ^e tone a wesshyng / the tother a congregacyone or assemble of hethen paynem people. And thus is in thys poynte Tyndales playne foly and dissymuled falsed, well and playnely conuycted.

And now syth that the apostles and euangelystes dyd apply and approper that prophane worde ecclesia, to sygnyfy y ^e holy company of crysten people sacred and sanctifyed in the holy sacrament of baptysme / and in lykewyse the prophane worde presbyteros to sygnyfye a certayne sorte of the same cō ­panye, specyally consecrate vnto god by the holy sacrament of order: he that now translateth those wordes in those places B in to the englysshe tonge by any other wordes then such as in the englysshe tonge do sygnyfye those holy consecrate companyes, the tone segregate from paynyms by the sacra­ment of baptysme, the tother segregate fro the laye people by the sacrament of order / as Tyndale hath done bothe in the holy name of chyrche and prestes, callynge the tone but congregacyon, the tother fyrst but senyor & now that worse is but elder / yf he know it for no faute, then is it grete igno­raūce / yf he forgete to marke it, then is it grete neglygence / yf he perceyue it and dyssymule it, then is it grete falshed / yf he do it as Tyndale doeth, to make presthed seme none holy sacrament, then is it a very malycyouse pestylente heresye / lyke as yf he wolde in lyke maner and of lyke entent trans­late baptisma in to wasshynge, to make men wene it were no C nother maner wasshyng when the preste crysteneth a chyld, then when a woman was [...]heth a [...]ke of clothes.

He planteth in a grete processe to small purpose / bycause I sayd y ^t Tymothe was not olde. And then Tyndale sayth that saynt Paule chose hym bycause he found in hym more wysdome, sadnes, and vertue, then in the aged t [...]en of that place. And Tyndale doeth well to tell vs so for [...]llys wolde all y ^e world haue went that saynt Paule h [...] made a yonge man bysshoppe, bycau [...] [...]e wolde haue had hym wylde.

But the goth he forth and [...] [...]s a solemne processe, that god and necessyte is law [...]e / and all this he bryng [...] in to proue that not onely yonge men but women also [...] for necessyte mynyster all the sacramentes / and that [...] [Page cxli] A may crysten for necessyte, so they may for necessyte preache, and for necessyte consecrate also the blessed bodye of Cryste. And for to make this mater lykely: he is fayne to ymagyne an vnlykely case / that a woman were dreuen alone in to an Ilande where Cryste was neuer preached, as though thynges that we call chaunce and happe, happed to come so to passe wythout any prouydence of god. Tyndale may make hym selfe sure, that syth there falleth not a sparow vppon y ^e ground wythout our father that is in heuen: Mat. 10 there shall no woman fall a lande in any so farre an Ilande, where he will haue his name preached and his sacramentes mynystred / but that god can and wyll well inough prouyde a man or twayne to come to lande wyth her, wherof we haue had all redy metely good experyence and that wyth in few yeres. B For I am sure there haue ben mo Ilandes and more parte of the ferme lande and contynent, dyscouered and founden out wythin this fourty yeres laste passed / then was new foū den, as farre as any mā may ꝑceyue this thre thousand yere afore / and in many of these places the name of Cryste now new knowen to and preachynges had, and sacramētes my­nystred, wythout any woman fallen a lande alone. But god hath prouyded that his name is preached by such good cry­sten folke as Tyndale now moste rayleth vppon / y ^t is good relygyous freres & specyally y ^e freres obseruaūtes, honeste, godly, chast [...], vertuose people / not by such as frere Luther is that is rūne out of religyon, nor by castyng a lande alone any suche holy nonne as his harlot is.

when Tyndale hath proued by this vnprobable case, that C women maye consecrate the bodye of Cryste: thē he lamen­teth the myserable seruytude of the symple soules the pore sely women [...] by cause men wyll not suffer them to say masse, and [...]yeth out vppon vs: o pore women.

How dyspyse ye them. The vyser the better welcome to you. Better is to you [...]o [...]d then a good woman.

O the tender herte of py [...]uouse Tyndale. He begynneth now by lykelyhed to loke towarde weddyng he speketh lyke a [...]e [...]. But he wyll I warraunt you no vyle person. But byca [...]e he is a prest and hath promysed perpetually to lyue chaste / h [...] [...]yll none whore therfore, but rather wyll do as Luther [...] done, wedde a [...]onne and make here an whore

Then exhorteth he full holyly, and in manner con [...]ureth also the re [...] [...] lorde god, that he shall rede ouer the [Page cxlii] two pystles of saynt Poule wrytē to Timothe, wherof hym A selfe also reherseth parte / whych who so euer rede, shall se therin both the false malyce of the mā, and yet the workyng of god therewyth. For god hath caused Tyn [...]al [...] to putte in suche thynges as dyrectyly reproue his owne condycyons / and the deuyll hath made hym falsely to l [...]ue out those wordes which yf he hadde set in / muste nedes haue openly declared that all is heresye that euer he gothe aboute.

For saynt Paule there teacheth Timothe to beware and avoyde the companye of men of corrupte myndes, whyche waste theyr braynes aboute wrangelynge questyons. And Tyndale is in companye of none other / but such as Luther is and frere Huskyn and theyr felowes, that had wasted out theyr wyttes so longe about wrangelynge heresyes, y ^t now they are fallen at laste to runne out of relyg [...]on, and waste B out theyre braynes aboute wrangelyng wyues.

Saynt Poule also teacheth Tymothe, that he sholde not sharpely rebuke any man that were elder then hym sel [...]e, but exhorte hym as his father, though hym selfe was bys [...]hope and as Tyndale sayth an apostle to. Now Tyndale beyng neyther nother, nor hauynge any offyce so mych as among heretiques: letteth neyther sharpely to rebuke his elders in age, nor also to ieste and rayle vppon all states spyrytuall and temporall thorow out all Crystendome, and namely a­gaynste all relygyouse men, but yf they wyll runne out and wedde. And thus ye maye se wyth what frute Tyndale rea­deth saynt Paule.

Now wold I that Tyndale had putte in this place these wordes that he leueth out: Noli [...]gligere gratiam quae in te [...] est, quae C data est tibi per pr [...]y [...]etiam, cum impositione manuum presbyteri. Neglecte not the grace that is in the, 1. Timoth. 4 whych was geuen the by prophecye, wyth the puttynge vppon the handes of a prest. And [...]fterwarde in the .ii. pystle: 2. Timoth. 1. Admoneo te vt resuscites gratiam [...]e [...], qu [...]e est in te per impositionem manuū mearū. I warne the that thou [...]tyrre vppe the grace of god, that is in the by the putty [...]e of myn handes vppon the.

These wordes of saint Paule to Timothe i [...] those pystles whyche Tyndale exhorteth euery man to rede, and wherof hym selfe rehers [...]th also partes [...] do manyfes [...]ely reproue [...]ndales heresye, and clerely proue the holy order of prestehed a sacrament.

For these places shewe bothe y ^e sensyble sygne of [...] [Page cxliii] A the apostles hādes vppon Timothe in the makyng of hym preste / and also that god gaue hys grace therwyth. And the fyrst texte sheweth also after the greke (in whyche it is wyth the puttynge vppon the handes not of a preste as the latyn is but of prestehed) the power and authoryte that Timothe had in gyuynge the same grace forthe vnto other [...] whom he sholde after make prestes.

And these textes do so playnely reproue hym / that he is fayne to make a shamefull shamelesse shyfte to voyde them, suche as all the worlde may wonder at. For he sayth in his boke of obedyence, that the puttynge on of saynte Paules handes vppon Timothe was no sacramentall sygne / nor any other thynge but a custume of puttyng a mannys hand vppon a nother / as men do here vppon a boyes hed when B they call hym good sonne / or as saynt Paule vsed to streche out hys arme to the people when he preched.

what auayleth it to lay manyfeste holy scrypture to Tyndale, that forceth so lytell so manyfestely to mokke it. Tyn­dale cryeth out that euery man myssecōstrueth y ^e scrypture / and then hym selfe ye se what construccyon he maketh. Saynt Paule sayth playnly that Timothe receyued grace by the puttynge of hys handes vppon hym. And Tyndale letteth not to tell hym as playnely nay / and that he dyd but stroke Timothees hed and call hym good sonne, by lykely hede bycause he was but yonge. But how so euer Tyndale lyste to tryfle / these places playnely reproue and connycte hys heresye, and proue prestehed an holy sacrament.

Now falleth he to raylyng [...] vppon the holy ceremonyes C of prestehed as shauynge & anoyntynge. And fyrste he sayth that yf onely shauen and anoynted may preche or cōsecrate the sacramentys: then Cryste dyd them not nor none of his apostles, nor any man in longe tyme after / for they vsed no suche ceremonyes.

Thys is a worthy ieste I promyse you. If melysted here to tryfle as Tyndale doeth / I coude aske hym how he pro­ueth that saynt Peter was neuer shauen, syth I suppose he neue [...] saw hym / or yf he wolde put me to proue that he was shau [...]n, and therin when I coude fynde no playne scrypture for it [...] Tyn [...]ale wold not byleue me but yf I broughte forth hys barb [...]: I myghte tell Tyndale agayne that I were not boside [...] [...]yth the s [...]pture sheweth it not, to byleue hym that [...]ayn [...] [...] cry [...]tened, tyll Tyndale brynge [Page cxliiii] forthe hys godfather.

But these fantasyes of hys and myne bothe, go farre fro A the mater. The trouth is that as god by Moyses taughte hys synagoge certayne goodly ceremonyes for the garnys­shynge of y ^e seruyce done to hym by his chosen people there, and for the styrynge of them to deuocyon: so hath he by hys owne holy spyryte whom he sent to instructe hys chyrche, taught them holy ceremonyes to be vsed about hys blessed sacramētes, to the honour therof and to the encreace of crysten mennys deuocyon, as in dede it doth what so euer Tyndale bable. Now be there amonge these, the shauynge and the anoyntynge of the preste. And so is there thapparayle of the preste at masse, and many other obseruaūces vsed in the same. Now yf some of the same were before vsed eyther amonge iewes or paynyms / yet Crystes chyrche borowed B them neyther of the iewes nor the paynyms as Tyndale sayth, but toke them agayne of god. Now where Tyndale argueth y ^t yf none maye consecrate the sacrament but onely shauen and anoynted, then Cryste nor any of hys apostles myghte not, bycause they were neuer shauen nor anoynted: he maketh a worshyppefull reason. For fyrste our sauyour Cryste the very inwarde anoynted preste, whom god hadde anoynted wyth the oyle of gladnes aboue all hys felowes: neded neyther ceremony nor sacrament as towchynge hym selfe. And as towchynge hys apostles, though Cryste vnto them instytuted sacramentes: yet he lefte many of the cere­monyes to the holy ghoste to teche, by whom they be insty­tuted and by whom they be in the chyrche contynued. Now is there none that maye cons [...]crate the sacrament, but yf he C be fyrste made preste / and pre [...]te is there none made, but the ceremonyes of shauynge and anoyntynge are vsed in y ^e ma­kynge / though they be not the substaunce of the sacrament of order, no more then y ^e cathecismes and exorcism [...] at the crystenyng, be of the substaūce of y ^e sacrament of ba [...]ysme. And therfore though before those ceremonyes vsed, prestes myghte consecrate vnshauen and vnanoynted, when sha­uynge and anoyntyng was not yet instytuted: yet now can there none do so, syth there is no preste made vnshauen and vnanoynted. For yf they make any at wyttēberge by a bare choyse, wythout the gyuynge of y ^e sacrament of holy orders by such as haue power to gyue them / they be no prest [...] [...] maye not consecrate at all, no more then maye th [...] [...]

A Tyndale.

And seynge that the oyle is not of necessite: let M. More tell me what more vertue is in the oyle of confyrmacyon, in as mych as the byshoppe sa­cryth the one as well as the other / ye and let hym tell the reason why there shuld be more vertue in the oyle wherewith the byshoppe anoynteth his prestes Lette hym tell you from whence the oyle cometh, how it is made, and why he selleth yt to the curates wherewyth they anoynte the sycke, or whether this be of lesse vertue then the other.

More.

Tyndale here putteth many questyons to me, whyche he wyll that I muste nedys answere bycause the oyle in the makynge of a preste is not of necessyte / but surely these questy­ons be to y ^e mater of mych lesse necessyte. How be it bycause I must nedys answere to men of suche authoryte, when the questyons be so solempnely put: I saye that yf a bysshoppe B sacre the tone oyle and the tother bothe alyke, there is no more vertue in the tone then is in the tother. But I say that the oyle beynge all one / it is in the anoyntynge of the preste an holy ceremony / and in the anoyntynge of the chylde at confyrmacyon it is the mater of an holy sacrament / and in y ^• anelyng of y ^e sycke also, and euery of these two is one of the seuen, whyche the spyryte of god hath taught the chyrche of Cryste to knowe and vse for .vii. souerayne meanys of very specyall grace.

And therfore such dyfference is there, as is bytwene the halowed water standynge in the font before it be occupyed, or yf it were sprynkled vppon a man for holy water / and the same holowed water beynge occupyed in the crystenynge of a chylde at the tyme in whyche it is applyed thereto. For in C that tyme besyde the goodnes that it hath of the halowyng / it hath a nother effectuall goodnes by goddys ordynaunce, whereby it is made a meane of purgyng the soule fro synne and [...] infusyon of goddys grace, and of enablynge the newe regendred creature to inherytaunce of heuyn.

And when Tyndale asketh me in any of these thynges y ^e cause & y ^e reason why: I myght as well aske hym y ^e cause and reason why, in the nature and properte of any naturall thynge, beste, herbe, tre, or stone. whych yf I were so madde to loke that Tyndale were able to tell me: what had he more to saye, then that god had planted that nature and properte therin [...] whych answere shall also serue in these holy ceremo­nyes and [...]a [...]ramētes / wherof the vertues be caused by goddes ordyna [...]ce thorow his holy wordes, whereof the pro­fyte is lymyt [...] and po [...]n [...]d after such rate and degrees [...] [Page cxlvi] as is to no man full & perfitely knowē but onely to god that A gyueth it. And thus answere I Tyndale to these qstyones.

He asketh farther from whence y ^e oyle cōmeth, and wherof yt is made: what is y ^t any more to y ^e mater, then frō whēs the water is fet y ^t is put in to the fonte, or of what grapes y ^e wyne was made y ^t Cryst at his maūdye turned īto his blood

Now where he asketh me why the byshope selleth it vnto the curates wherewith they anoynt y ^e sycke: thereto I saye that the byshoppe sendeth yt to the curates, bycause they shold therwith anoynte y ^e sycke in the sacramēt of anoylyng

But why he selleth yt to the curates yf he so dyd: therof can I not tell the cause / but yf yt were peraduēture bycause he wold be payed therfore. But I cā tell well y ^t the byshop selleth it not to curates nor no man ellis, but y ^e curatis haue it sent thē fre, but if they reward y ^e brynger of theyr courtesy B with a grote, which brynger is yet y ^e archidecons seruaūt, & not y ^e byshops. And this I can tell for I haue inquyred for y ^e nonys. And by this cā I tell as well y ^• Tindale here bylyeth the byshope shamfully for the nonys.

Tyndale.

And when he affyrmeth that I saye how the oylynge and shauyng is no parte of the presthed: that improueth he not nor can do, and therfore I saye yt yet.

More.

It is very truth that I improue hym not in that poynt / but am well content that he saye yt yet, and I wyll saye the same. But I improue that he sayth euery Crysten man and euery woman to, is as veryly a preste as these that at the recepte of that holy order are both anoynted and shauē. This is yt that I improue / and this is yt that is a starke heresye though Tyndale saye yt yet. C

Tyndale.

When he enserched the vttermost that he cā: this is all that he cā say agaynst me / that of an hūdred there be not tenne that haue the propertees which Paule requyreth to be in them. Wherfore yf oylynge and shauy [...]ge be no parte of theyr preesthed: then euer more of a thousan [...]e .ix. hundred at the le [...]te sholde be no prestes at all. And quoth your frende wolde confyrme yt wyth an othe and [...]were depely that yt wolde folowe, and that it muste nedys so be. Whych argument yet yf there were none other shyfte / I wolde solue after an Oxforde fashyon wyth concedo couse quentiam & consequens.

More.

Tyndale here maketh a tale, as though yt were a dya­loge or rather a tryaloge, bytwene hymselfe, the messenger, and me / sayenge that I in my dialoge dyd alledge, that yf [...]ylynge and shauynge were no parte of theyr pr [...]h [...]d / then [Page cxlvii] A of a thousande prestes nyne hōdred at the leste were no pres­tes at all, for lakke that [...]f an hundred prestes, there be not tenne that haue the propertes that saynt Paule requyreth to be in them. And he sayth the messenger wolde afferme yt wyth a great othe / and that hym selfe wolde yf there were none other shyfte, soyle yt after an Oxforde fashyon, wyth concedo consequentiam & consequens. wherin he meaneth that syth he sheweth none other shyft, he graūted both twayne for trew / that is to wytte that excepte oylynge and shauynge be parte of the prestehed, ellys yt muste nedys folow that of a thou­sande prestes nyne hundred be none at all for lakke of good condycyons. And also he graunteth not onely that of rea­son yt wolde so folow / but also that yt is trew in dede, that for as so myche as oylyng and shauyng be not the thynges B that maketh them prestes, and good cōdicyons they lakke / therfore they be no prestes at all.

But for as mych as he sayth that he wyll soyle yt so for lakke of other shyfte / he shall not nede so to do / for I wyll fynde hym a nother shyfte my selfe, and a playne contrarye shyfte, and soyle yt wyth nego consequentiā & consequens. For where as he graunteth bothe to be trew: I saye that they be bothe false. And where as he maketh as though they were myne owne wordes and the messengers with me: in good fayth I neyther remember them nor fynde thē, all be yt that I haue purposely loked for them in all such places of my dyaloge, as me thought yt shold be yf yt were there at all. And there­fore leuynge y ^e poynt in questyone betwene vs, tyll I come to replye to his answere made vnto my dialoge / at whyche C tyme I shall rede yt ouer of necessyte and muste nedes fynd yt yf yt be therin: I wyll i [...] y ^e meane whyle not let if I sayed yt my selfe, to say that I sayd wronge. For by goddes grace neuer wyll I wyttyngly whyle I lyue defende the thynge that my selfe shall thynke vntrew, though yt hadde happed me to saye yt my selfe / but that I shall well and playnely reuoke yt and call yt bakke, not dissymulyng myn owne ouer syght. And wold god Tyndale wolde do the lyke & Luther to / they sholde then neyther so styffely defende so shamelesse heresyes as they do, nor make so shamelesse gloses of theyr owne formare wordes, when they se them so reproued that they can in no wise defende them / nor so shamefully chaung from worse to worse, as Luther hath agaynste his owne cō scyence done in some one mater thryes.

[Page cxlviii]To the mater I saye therfore, that yt is false that yf oy­lynge A and shauynge be no parte of the presthed, then it must folow that of a thousande there be .ix. hundred no preestys at all. For I say that oylynge and shauyng be no parte of y ^e presthed in dede / but be holy ceremonyes vsed about the cō secracyon / lykewyse as in matrymony and baptysme both, be dyuerse holy ceremonyes vsed that be not the essencyall poyntes of those sacramentes. And therfore is yt false that yf oylynge and shauynge be no parte of the presthed, y ^e prest is no preste for lakke of prestely vertues. For the holy sacrament of order is gyuen hym by the imposycyon of the bys­shoppes handes vppon hym, in such wyse as the chyrche of Cryste vseth and euer hath vsed synnys the deth of Cryste vnto these dayes.

And that the grace by god appoynted vnto holy orders B is geuen wyth that puttyng vppon of the handes / is twyes declared by saynt Paule in his pystles to Tymothe / & that so playnely that yt greueth Tyndales herte to here thereof, and maketh hym to make a mokke thereat, and saye it was but lyke as a man layeth his hande on a boyes hed when he calleth hym good sonne.

But the place is for all that so playne / that when Tyn­dale so playeth therwyth and so lawgheth thereat: he law­gheth but from the lyppes forwarde, and gyrneth as a dog doth when one porreth hym in the teeth wyth a stykke. And thus haue I proued the consequency to be false, which Tyndale graunteth for trew. Now to thet other parte, that is to wyt the consequente whych he graunteth for trew also, I saye y ^t yt is false also. For lyke wyse as he graunteth C that a preste is no preste at all for lakke of prestely condycy­ons: so myght he saye as well that a crysten man is not crystyned at all, for lakke of crysten condycyons. And bycause Tyndale wyll haue a preste nothyng but an offycer: yet af­ter his owne false and fonde fashyon he sholde not graunte yt for trew. For then muste he saye that euery euyll offycer, mayre, baylye, constable, or shyryffe yf he mysse vse hym self in his offyce, were forthwyth out of offyce. And thus ye se that the consequente is false, whyche Tyndale also graun­teth to be trew.

But all this bysenesse maketh he for hatered and dyspyte that he bereth to presthed, and to the dyuyne seruice that the prestes say, wherof hym self sayth none at all / & for the ma­lyce [Page cxlix] A that he bereth to the masse whych hym self neuer sayth / and vnto the holy sacramētes which the prestes minystreth, aud whych Tyndale vtterly stryueth to destroye.

Tyndale.

yet sayth he farther: Agape and charitas were wordes vsed amonge C hethen men ere Cryste cam, and sygnyfy [...]d therfore more then a godly loue. And we may say well ynow, and I haue herde yt spoken / that the turkes be charitable one to a nother amonge them selfes, and some of them vnto crysten men [...] Bysydes all this agape is comen to all loues.

More.

yet he is in hande agayne wyth agape often and bryn­geth not forthe one wyse worde. For though thys greke worde agape sygnyfye loue indyfferentely good and bad: yet thys worde charyte sygnyfyeth no loue but good. And therfore in such places of scrypture, as agape sygnifyeth good loue: why sholde Tindale translatyng in to englysh, rather take this worde loue that sygnyfyeth no more good loue then badde / rather this worde charyte that sygnyfyeth [Page cli] A no loue but good. This I aske hym yet agayne.

Now though this laten worde charitas was a worde vsed amonge the hethen ere Cryste cam / & though yt had sygny­fyed in laten at that tyme amonge them an euyll loue and a noughty: yet this englyshe word charyte neuer sygnyfyed amonge vs any other loue then good / not euē in that speche that Tyndale speketh of, that turkes be charytable among them selfe, & some of them to crysten people to / where yt sy­gnyfyeth yet rather pytye then loue. And therfore Tyndale muste in hys englysshe translacyon take hys englysshe wor­des as they sygnyfye in englyshe, rather then as the wordes sygnyfye in the tonge, out of whyche they were taken in to the englysshe. And yet remember I not that charitas in the la­tyne tonge was vsed to sygnyfye euyll loue. And I saye to B Tyndale yet ferther, that though thys englysshe worde che­ryte had ben englysshe before the byrthe of Cryste, and had then sygnyfyed amonge englysshe infydelys an euyll wan­ton loue / ye though it had then amonge thē sygnyfyed none other loue but noughty: yet syth it sygnyfyeth not that but the contrary now in our tyme, and so hath sygnyfyed longe before our dayes / Tyndale muste nedys in hys englysshe translacyon vse hys englysshe wordes in suche sygnyfyca­cyon as the people vseth them in hys owne tyme / and not in such sygnyfycacyō as they were vsed in of olde tyme, which the people haue chaunged and forgoten hūdrethes of yerys ere he were borne.

For ellys he sholde make a gaye confusyon, yf he wolde in the maters of vertue and crysten fayth vse the olde wor­des C after the olde fasshyon / and take [...]ides for nothynge but suche as it sygnyfyed ere Cryste came. Then where so euer he founde in saynte Austyne and other holy doctours persona patris, persona filij, persona spiritus sancti: Tyndale muste call them not the persons but the visours of the father, the sonne, and the holy ghost / & make men wene y ^t they dawnce in a maske.

And thus yet agayne ye se to how lytle purpose this rea­son serueth Tyndale, that agape and charitas were wordes vsed amonge the hethen ere Cryste was borne.

Tyndale.

Fynally I saye not cheryte god or cheryte your neyghbour, but loue god and loue your neyghbour.

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This is a prety poynt of iuglynge / by whyche he wolde [Page clii] make the reader loke a syde y ^• hym selfe myght playe a false A caste the whyle / and men sholde not se wherin the questyon standeth. For he maketh as though I reproued that he hath this worde loue in his translacion in any place at all, where I neyther so sayed nor so thought. But the faute I founde, as in my dialoge I sayed playnely inough / was that he ra­ther chose to vse thys worde loue then thys worde cheryte, in such places as he myghte well haue vsed thys word che­ryte / and where the latyn texte was charitas, and where thys holy word cheryte was more proper for the mater then thys indyfferent worde loue. Thys was the fawte that I found. And therfore wherof serueth hys tryflyng betwene y ^• nowne and the verbe. I let hym not to say loue thy neyghbour / nor I bydde hym not say cheryte thy neyghbour, nor good affeccyon thy neyghbour, nor good mynde thy neyghbour, [...] B more then drynke thy neyghbour. And yet as he maye saye there geue thy neyghbour drynke / .so may he if it please hym saye, here thy neyghbour good mynde, bere thy neyghbour charyte.

Tyndale.

Though we saye a man ought to loue his neyghbours wyfe or his neyghbours doughter: a cristen man doth not vnderstande that [...]e is commanded to de­fyse his neyghbours wyfe nor his neyghbours doughter.

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This mater is somewhat amended here by this worde, ought to loue. But ellys if Tyndale fall not to y ^e cherytyng, but to the louynge of his neyghbours wyfe, or the louynge of his neyghbours doughter: I had as leue he bare them both a bare cheryte, as wyth the frayle feminyne sexe fall to C far in loue, namely syth he sayth that prestes muste nedes haue wyfes.

But where of serueth hym this ensample. Dyd any man forbede hym to vse this worde loue. He maketh as though I forbode y ^e worde vtterly / bycause I forbede yt hym where he sholde not vse yt but charyte. Thus cryeth he [...] vppon all the chyrche / & sayth they forbede all [...], bycause they forbede the banys bytwene frerys and [...]nes.

A Tyndale.

ANd wyth lyke reasons rageth he, bycause I torne charis into fauour and not in to grace / sayenge that euery fa­uour is not grace, and that in some fauour there is but lytle grace. I can say also in some grace there is lytle: goodnesse / as when we say he standeth well in my ladyes grace, we vnderstande no greatë godly fauoure / and in vnyuersitees there be many vngracyouse graces goten.

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Thys ys all that he sayeth for hys puttynge out of grace and settynge in of fauour. And I praye you consyder what cause hath he now shewede why he so sholde do. And yet his tytell of this chapiter is, why fauour & not grace, as though he wolde tell you why. And hath he now shewed you any B cause at all / but thynketh that hys proper scoffynge is suf­fycyent to chaung y ^• knowen holy namys of vertue thorow all scrypture, in to suche wordes as hym selfe lyketh. And now he pleaseth hym self wonderfully well, bycause he hath founde out so fetely that prety scoffe that grace sygnyfyeth somtyme no good / as when a man standeth well in his la­dyes grace. But he seeth well that I fynde wyth hym the faute, for chaungynge grace into fauour, where y ^e scrypture speketh not of the grace of my lady but of the grace of our lorde. In spekynge wherof all be it that goddys fauour is neuer but good: yet is in respecte vnto hys creature hys grace and his fauour not alwaye one / but he both fauoreth for his grace, and gyueth grace for his fauour, & fauoreth for his mercy / and yet his fauour and his mercy not bothe C one, in respecte I saye to his creatures, though hys owne nature be so entyere and hole, that all that euer is in hym is all one. And yet where he putteth his ensample of standyng in his ladyes grace / bycause yt is yet but indyfferent, for y ^• maye be good inough: he sholde haue made thensample by [...]wde Luther & his lew [...] ladyes grace. And when he sayeth that in the vnyuersyte many vngracyouse graces be goten: he sholde haue made it more playne and better perceyued, yf he had sayed, as for ensample when hys owne grace was th [...] graunted to be made mayster of arte. And thus gra­cyon [...] hath he quytte hym selfe in puttynge out of grace.

Tyndale. A

ANd that I vse thys worde knowlege and not [...]s [...]syon, and thys worde repentaunce and not [...]enaun [...] in which all be cā not proue that I gyue not the ry [...] englysshe vnto the greke worde.

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Thys is playne vntrew that Tyn­dale sayth, as I haue playnely shewed all redy in the wordes chyrche, preste, cheryte, and grace / all whyche chapyters who so rede and consyder from the begynnynge, and aduyse well Tyndales wordes and myne, be he lerned be he not lerned that readeth them, yf he haue naturall wyt and be but indyfferēt / he shall (I dowte not fynde) Tindale in these poyntes so clerely confounded, that he shall truste bothe hys lernyng the lesse and B his wyt y ^e worse whyle he leueth after. Besydes that he shall perceyue also malyce, hatered, and enuy, so stuffed in Tyn­dales harte / that all though he had greate wyt and lernyng bothe, yet must the myste of suche blynde affeccyons nedys blyndefelde them bothe.

Tyndale.

But yt is a farre other thyng that payneth them and byteth thē by the [...]restis. There be secrete pa [...]ges that pinche the very hertes of them, wherof they dare not complayne. The sykenesse that maketh them so impacyent is, that they haue loste theyr iuglynge termes. For the doctours preachers, were wont to make many diuisyons, distinccyons, and sottis of grace, gratis [...]ata, gratum faciens, praeuenicus, & subsequens.

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Nay god he thanked they haue not lost these termys yet, C and god forbede they sholde. For these termys of grace be no englyush termys / but termys necessarye for the trewe knowledge of goddys gy [...]tes & graces. But Tyndale hath indede loste them / from whose harte the deuyll hath [...] all grace, saue gratia gratis data, and yet that to alm [...]e / [...]yth whyche gratia gratis data all had he therof [...]yche [...] then he hath, he myghte go forth as he goth y ^e strayg [...] [...] downe to the deuyll. For those [...] graces and [...] god gyueth a man, wherof he maye make a m [...]r of [...] or a mater of vyce as hym lyst to [...] them to [...], the man is mych the worse for them as [...], strength, ler­nynge, or wyt. Gratia grat [...] facie [...]s, is that grace by [...] the man is acceptable to god. As the grace gyuen in y ^• [...] [Page clv] A though it be to chyldren, and the grace with which in fayth, hope, and cheryte, man worketh good workes, watche, fast, pray, gyue allmose, and suche other lyke as god rewardeth in heuyn. Now for as myche as man can do no good but yf god begyn, and he is alwaye redy to begynne: therfore the grace wyth whyche god begynneth to set vs a worke, is called, gratia praeuen [...]ēs. And for as mych as we shold sone ceace to, but yf grace contynued wyth vs / as our eye sholde ceace to se, yf that we lakked lyghte: god contynueth his grace with vs to worke, wyth vs, whych is called gratia cooperans. And yet for as mych as he that well worketh wyth grace, deserueth of god by goddy [...] goodnesse encreace of grace accordynge to the gospell, omni habenti dabitu [...] & habunda [...]it, Matth. 25 to euery man that hath there shall be gyuen, and he shall habounde that well B bestoweth his talentes of grace and worketh well therwith: therfore the grace that god gyueth a man for the good vse of hys formar grace, may be called gratia subsequens. And fynal­ly for as mych as grace perceueryng with man at hys ende, bryngeth hym to glory / whyche who so attayneth is then in suretye of stedefaste and vnperysshable grace and fauour of god: this fynall grace is called gratia con [...]i [...]n [...], that is grace that perfyteth the thynge.

Now syth euery man perceyueth well, that all be it that in god all is one grace, with whych he preuenteth our good workes; and wyth whyche he helpeth them forth in the pro­gresse, and whych addeth and maketh more, habounde, and wyth whyche he perfyteth hys creature in glory: yet fyth y ^t in vs and our workes it is dyuersely consydered after dy­uerse, C respectys / and of eueryche of those respectys falleth necessyte for men in sco [...] oftentymes to speke / specyally for the reprose of those heretykes that wolde haue no dyuy­syons nor dystynecyons, wherby the thynge sholde be made open and playne, but wolde blynde and begyle theyr herers [...]yth darkenesse and confusyon: reason requyreth to gyue euery dyuers [...]especte a dyuers name, a [...]onge them y ^t must often syche thereof / e [...]cent that they sholde in an argument [...] thyrde worde repete an hole [...]le, where one worde [...] [...]ppon may well and suffycyently f [...]r [...]e.

And therfore ye may [...] se that these be no iuglynge [...], [...] deuysed wyth good reason and of necessy [...]. But [...] subtyle iu [...]e [...] the deuyll / hath tau [...] these [...] Luther Huskyn, a [...]d [...]ndale, [Page clvi] to fall to such false iuglynge: that they labour f [...]re to iugle A awaye, not onely those termys of grace and the very name of grace out of mēnys earys / but also the byl [...]fe of all grace, and therwith the effecte of all grace clene out of mennys hertes / and frewyll and grace taken away, to make men byleue that there is nothynge at all but desteny / and so pretendyng lybertye, they put all in thra [...]dome / and pretendyng vertue, they dryue men to vyce / and pretendynge god, they dryue men to the deuyll. And thys is Tyndales iuglynge / whych bycause he wolde not were ꝑceyued: to dyssemble hys false iugelyng and haue it taken for trouth, he calleth the playne truth by the name of iuglynge, as ye shall here by and by.

Tyndale.

Wyth confessyon they iugled, and made the people as ofte as they spake of yt, vnderstande shrifte in the eare, wherof the scrypture maketh no mēcyon. No, B yt is clene agay [...]ste the scrypture as they vse yt & preache yt / and vnto god an abominacyon and a foule stynkyng sacrifyce vnto the fylthy idole Priapus [...]

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This hygh godly spirituall mā taketh for none abominacion at all, but can abyde well and hold very well with all, & not defende yt onely but commende yt also / that a nonne cō secrate vnto god, shold runne out of relygyon, and do fo [...]le stynkyng sacri [...]yce to that fylthy idole of Priapus, that frere Luther bereth about to gather in his offerynge wyth / & that they shall both, and a great many such reba [...]des mo / shame fully shew theyr abomynable bychery, to the corrupcyon of the worlde openly. But he can not abyde in no wise that any man sholde so repent his secrete synne, that he sholde vnto his confessour shew yt secretely. This can Tyndale in no C wyse abyde. And why? For he wolde rather haue synne she­wed in shamelesse b [...]stynge, whereby it myght encreace and grow / thē shamefas [...]ely shewed in cōfessyon, where it myght be weeded out and caste away.

I purpose not here to fall in dys [...]ycyons wyth Tyndale for y ^• mate [...]/nor at euery lewd felowes blasphem [...]/to bryng the blessed sacramentes in questyon. For syth Tyndale can not hym self deuye, but that sayne Austayne, [...] Hierom, saynt Ambrose, [...], and other holy sayntes haue b [...]th vsed, [...], and taken c [...]essyon for a necessary [...]/& euery go [...] man hath in hym selfe euer fou [...] no lytle spyrytuall pr [...] fy [...]e and soule comfort therin: yt shall not now greatly [...] [Page clvii] A what a new foūden sorte of heretykes barke & baule therat.

And as for this worde knowlege is very farre from the greke word exomologesis/& as farre frō the latine word confessio/and yet mych more from the very mater selfe, that is to wyt from the sacrament of penaunce. For bothe the greke worde and the latine, do sygnifye an openyng and a shewyng of y ^e thyng / and y ^e mater selfe meaneth a willyngly offered declaracyon of y ^e secrete hyd synne / and this englyshe word knowlege is anthyguouse & doutefull. For as yt is a nowne / yt sygnifyeth but the knowynge of a thynge or vnderstandyng / as where a man sayth, this chyld hath yet no knowlege neyther of good nor euyll. And when yt is a verbe, or that yt is turned in to this worde knowlegynge / yet sygnyfyeth yt rather the not denyenge then the wyllyngely tellynge of oure B owne faute, and namely of our owne offer. For that nowne knowlegynge and that verbe knowlege / hath in our tonge theyr proper place, where the faute is by some other layed vnto a manys charge / and where this laten worde agnosco or agnitio maye stande in the place yf they talked in latyne. As where we say of a stuberne bodye that standeth styll in the denyenge of his fawte that is layed afore his face / this man wyll not knolege his faute, or he wyll not be a knowē of his faute. And therfore is this word knowledge or knowlegyng not very mete nor very proper neyther for the greke worde nor the latyne: and leste of all for the mater / syth that con­fessynge and confessyon is the wyllyngly made declaracyon of our synne vnlayed vnto vs by any man saue our selfe. In whyche doenge though the penytente vse amonge wyth C his confessour this word knowlegynge: yet is yt rather his wyllyng behauour that se [...]th the mater, then the proper­tye of that englysshe worde.

Now yf Tyndale wyll tell vs that confessyon and con­fessynge is drawne out of the laten, and then wyll aske me what englyshe worde had we for the thynge byfore: I wene we had byfore [...]on [...] at all / but euer synnes the proper en­ [...]he worde hathe bene shryfte and shryuyng. For sauyng [...] goodnesse of god brought in that thynge wyth hys [...] of penaunce, whyche was brought in by the [...] were I wene farre of frō confessynge of theyr [...] of theyr owne offer / and scantly wolde [...] they were layed vnto theyr charge & [...] Onely god hathe brought in wyth the [Page clviii] grace of the sacrament, that men are so supled and made A humble in herte, that they wyll wyllyngly go shewe them selfe theyr owne synnes to the preste, whom god hath there appoynted in hys stede / and there abyde the shame and the rebuke therof, and lowly submytte them selfe to such payne and penaunce as theyr confessour shall assygne them, and y ^e same faythfully fulfyll in punysshement of them selfe for theyr synne.

But thys is it that Tyndale meaneth / he wolde haue all wyllynge confessyon quyte caste awaye, and all penaunce doynge to, as hym selfe sheweth by and by.

Tyndale.

And in lyke maner by this worde penaunce, they make the people vnderstand [...]oly dedes of theyr enioy [...]ynge, with whiche they muste make satisfaccyon to godwarde for theyr synnes: when all the scrypture precheth that Cryste hath B made full satysfacyon for our synnes.

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Thys is a greate synne lo, that euer any man shold take payne for his synne. Now though y ^• scrypture precheth that Cryste hath made full satysfacyon for our synnes: yet wold I fayne that Tyndale sholde tell me where he fyndeth any one place in scrypture, y ^t Crystes satysfaccyō for our synnes is in such wyse full, that he wyll there be no payne put vnto vs therfore. Let vs consyder hys owne wordes y ^• folowe.

Tyndale [...]

And we muste now be thankefull to go [...] agayne, and kyll the l [...]stes of our flesh with holy workes of goddes enioyn yn ge [...]a [...]d to take pacyently all that god sayeth on my bakke.

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Thys is well and holyl [...] [...]ken. But now let passe fo [...] thys ones holy Luther and hys holy noune wyth all theyr holy workes that they worke togyther, in kyllynge y ^• lustes of theyr flesshe, in shewyng them selfe thankefull agay [...] [...] god.

I wyll aske Tyndale fyrste, whyther suche h [...] workes as god hath taught hys chyrche to be eni [...]d, [...] hy [...] by hys goos [...]ly father / be not enioyned vnto [...] by god. If not, he taketh awaye all the [...] of father [...] mother, prela [...]e & prynce, [...] any good [...] to be done to goddys honour / [...] in all suche cōmaundementes, god commaundeth Tyndale [...] euery man ellys to be obedyent, and accompteth theyr [...] ­maundementes [Page clix] A for hys owne.

yet yf Tyndale wyll no payne enioyned but by goddes owne mouth / nor suffer nothynge layed vppon hys bakke but yf god trusse vp the pakke hym selfe and wyth his owne handes, & bynde it vppon hys bakke wyth a paksadle: then wyll I yet wyt of Tindale whyther god do not enioyne any such holy workes, or laye any such burden vppon y ^e bakkes or repentant synners for the synnes that be passed, & wherof he is al [...] [...] [...]epentaunt.

If Tyndale answere no: then shall we put hym in re­membraunce of many places in holy scrypture / as well in Exodi, where he promyseth to punysshe the people for theyr idolatry notwythstandynge theyr repentaunce and hys re­myssyon to / as in the seconde boke of kynges, 2. Regum. 12 where he pu­nysshed B kynge Dauyd for hys māslawghter and aduowtry notwythstandynge hys repentaūce / & many places besyde.

Now yf he graunte that god punyssheth the synne notwythstandynge the repentaunce of the penytent, and the re­myssyon of his dyspleasure: then graunteth he and so must he graūte, y ^t all be it one droppe of Crystes precyouse blode had ben suffycyēt to satysfye for all the synnys of this whole worlde / and for all the payne also that were in any wyse dew to the same: yet hath it not pleased hym so to order it. But leste that such shorte forgyuenes, as well of all y ^e payne as of the dyspleasure of god, & of the dedelynesse, or as men myghte saye of the damnabylyte belongynge to the mortall offence / myghte make men waxe the worse, and set mych the lesse by synne: he forgyueth at the repentynge and by the C shryfte and absolucyon his hygh indygnacyon, wheruppon foloweth y ^• perpetuall banysshement from the syghte of his face, and fruycyon of hys glorye into theternall turment of helle / but he leueth ordynaryly some temporall payne to be sustayned for the euyll acte passed / and that to be suffered eyther here by good workes of penaunce doyng, or other satysfactory paynes or good workes eyther in this world here or after thys worlde in purgatory / but yf they be by other [...]lkys good dedys done for them thorow goddys goodnes releued. And thys I saye as by good authorytees appereth our lorde doeth ordynaryly / not forbarrynge hys absolute mercyfull power, wherby he maye do when he wyll what he wy [...]

Now yf Tyndale graunte as he nedys muste, that not [Page clx] wythstandynge the repentaunce and the remys [...]yon both / & A Crystes satysfaccyon also for theternalyte of the payne, and full restytucyon to goddes fauoure / yet there remayneth a temporall payne, or by good holy workes other satysfac­cyon for the same: then is it not agaynste all scripture (as Tyndale sayth yt is) nor agaynst any parte therof neyther, that men shall wyth penaūce doynge endeuour themself to satysfye for that payne / syth yt is not goddes ord [...] pleasure that his passyon shall serue euery man for the [...]ty [...]fa [...] cyon of that payne, bycause yt accordeth not wyth his ordynary iustyce / leste the fere of all payne vtterly taken awaye [...], men were lykely to make lytle force how boldely they fall to synne.

And then yf yt be well done that a man for his synne, willyngly punyshe hym selfe: why maye he not mekely submyt B his wyll to the counsale of his confessour, and take penaūce at his hande.

Tyndale.

And yf I haue hurte my neyghbour, I am bounde to shryue my self vnto hym, and make hym amendes yf I haue wherewyth / or yf not, then to aske hy [...] forgyuenesse / and he is bounde to forgyue me. As for theyr pen [...]nce the scry­pture knoweth not of.

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He neuer bryngeth in a good worde but for an euyll pur­pose. He sayth here very well concernynge our duty toward our neyghbours. But he saythe malycyousely to make vs wythdraw our dutye towarde god, for the satysfaccyon of the temporall payne that is dew for our synne, after the re­stytucyon to goddes fauour, and theternalyte of the payne C forgyuen. [...]nd that payne god hath not ordeyned of comen course to be satysfyed, by the onely merytes of Crystes pas­syon / but yf mennys workes wrought with his grace beadded therunto.

Tyndale.

As for theyr pena [...]nce, the scrypture knoweth not. The greke hath metanoia and metanoite, repentaunce and repente, or forthynkyng and forthynk / as we saye in englyshe, yt forthynketh [...]e or I forthynke, and [...] repent or yt repe [...] teth me, and I am sory that I dyd.

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Tyndale herebereth vs in [...] the scrypture [...]pe­keth not of penaunce / bycause hym selfe geueth this [...] worde a nother englyshe name. And bycause that Ty [...]ale. [Page clxi] A calleth yt forthynkynge and repentaunce: therfore all en­glyshe mē haue euer hetherto, myssused theyr own langage in callynge the thynge by the name of penaunce.

Now as for the worde penaunce what so euer the greke worde be: yt euer was and yet yt is lawfull inough (so that Tyndale geue vs leue) to call any thynge in englyshe by what worde so euer englysh men by comen custume agre vppon. And therfore to make a chaung of the englyshe worde, as though y ^t all Englande shold go to scole wyth Tyndale to lerne englyshe / is a very frantyque foly.

But now the mather standeth not therin at all. For Tyndale is not angry wyth the worde but bycause of the mater. For this greueth Luther & hym / that by penaūce we vndre­stāde when we speke therof so many good thynges therin / B & not a bare repētyng or forthynkyng onely, but also euery parte of the sacrament of penaunce, confessyon of mouthe, contrycyon of herte, aud satysfaccyon by good dedis.

For yf we called it but the sacrament of repentaūce, and by that worde wolde vnderstande as mych good therby as we now do by the worde penaunce: Tyndale wold be than as angry wyth repentaunce as he is now wyth penaunce. For he hateth nothyng but to here y ^t mē shold do any good.

we haue for our pore englysshe worde penaunce, the vse of all englysshe men syth penaunce fyrste beganne amonge them. And that is authoryte inough for an englysshe word / excepte Tyndale wyll bynde vs to fetche authoryte of reasō for euery worde of euery langage, out of Albert de modis signi­ficandi/bycause that frere Luther, frere Huyskyn, and frere C Lamberte, haue so sore se [...] theyr study vppon Alberte de secretis musierum. And yet yf he wyll nedys prece vppon vs there­wyth: we maye saye that we take in penaunce of the latyne worde penitentia, whyche the chyrche vseth for the same sacra­ment / or we maye saye that the worde penaunce is deryued and commeth of the worde payne, whyche bothe in harte, in worde, and in dede, the penytent sholde indeuour hym selfe [...] conceyue and sustayne for his synne. But this is it that Tyndale so sore doth abhorre. For he consequentely sayth.

Tyndale.

So now the scrypture sayth repent or set yt forthynke you, and come and by [...] se [...]e the go [...]ll or glad tydynges that is broughte you in Cryst / and so shall all befor [...] ben [...] forth: sy [...]e a new lyfe.

More.

[Page clxii]Here semeth a godly thynge, and is in dede very deue­lysshe. A For the wordes that be spoken to the hethen to come to crystendome / in thentre wherof at baptysme they be new regendred to god, and clensed clene & purged from all spot­tes: these wordes draweth Tyndale to them that be cryste­ned all redy, & kepe theyr bylefe styll, and yet fall into dedely synne agayne. For whose recōcylyacyon agayne to god, our lorde hath of hys goodnesse instytuted the sacrament of pe­naunce / wythout whyche they y ^t after baptysme fall agayne to synne, do lese the frute of theyr baptysme yf y ^e tyme serue them to take it.

And therfore sayth holy saynt Hierom, that the sacramēt of penaunce is the borde vppon whyche a man geteth to londe and saueth hym selfe after the shyppewrake. whyche wordes of hys, Luther in hys boke of Babiloni [...] sore dys­prayseth. B For saynt Hierome sheweth that the sacrament of baptysme is the shyppe, and was fygured by the shyppe of Noe, out of whyche there was no man saued. And when a man breketh the shyppe of hys baptysme in the storme of tentacyon, and falleth into the depe see of synne: then hath he yet hys remedy prouyded by god, yf he catche holde vp­pon y ^e borde of the salte sacrament of penaūce & so swymme / and god wyll helpe whyle he laboreth hym selfe to lande. But Luther and Tyndale wolde haue vs wene that after baptysme there nedeth no more but repent / and by and by all is gone agayne and clene wasshed awaye, synne & payne eternall and temporall and all togyther / and y ^t man in lyke case as when he came fyrste fro the fonte.

But who [...]o consyder well the [...]ordes of saynt Poule in C the syxte chapyter vnto the Hebrewes, shall fynde it farre vnlyke / where saynt Paule sayth in thys wyse: Hebre. 6 It is impossyble that they whyche haue ben ones illumyned, and haue tasted the heuenly gyfte, and haue ben made per [...]eners of y ^e holy goost, and haue also tasted the good worde of god and the powers of the worlde to come, & then are slyden downe: sholde be renewed agayne by penaunce, crucyfyeng agayne to them self the sonne of god, and hauyng hym in derysyon.

Here sheweth thys blessed apostle Poule that the dedely synne cōmytted after baptysme / putteth a man in that case, that it shall be very harde (for so is impossyble somtyme ta­ken in scrypture) by penaunce to be renewed agayne / that is to wyt to come agayne to baptysme or to the state of bap­tysme, [Page clxiii] A in whyche we be so fully renewed, and the olde synne so fully forgyuen, that we be forthwyth in suche wyse inno­cētes, that yf we dyed forthwyth, there were neyther eternall payne nor temporall payne appointed for vs, that is to wyt neyther helle nor purgatory. But that dedely synne cōmyt­ted after baptysme / is very harde by the sacrament of pe­naunce, confessyon, contrycyon, and greate payne taken to, to brynge vs agayne in the case, that the temporall payne dew therfore in purgatory, shall be worne all out by our pe­naunce done here. In all whyche thynges we neuer exclude the specyall pryuylege of goddys absolute mercy. For by hys myghty mercy the thynge that is impossyble to man, is not impossyble to god / as our sauyour sayth in the gospell of Mathewe. Mat. 19 But I speke of the ordynary course of hys B comen ordynaūce, in whyche is excepted also the prayours and good dedys / wyth whiche any man is besyde hys owne penaunce holpen and releued wyth the good dedys of other mennys cheryte, or y ^e spyrytuall treasour of Crystes chyrche vppon good cause applyed, conuenyently towarde the rede­mynge of hys temporall payne. But ellys I saye by the au­thoryte of saynt Poule in thys place / y ^t it shall be very hard for a man by penaunce wrought in grace, to be restored a­gayne to the state of baptysme clere from all payne dew for the synne.

For syth the sacrament of baptysme whyche regendreth vs and maketh vs new creaturys, doth not so fully apply y ^• passyon of Cryste for our satysfaccyō, that it so dyschargeth vs from all the payne of synne, but y ^t we sustayne yet euery C man for hym selfe the pa [...]nefull twych of bodely deth: we maye well byleue the apostle in thys place, that the payne temporally dew to our actuall synne commytted after bap­tysme, is not so sone worne out and payed by penaunce, but that it is as saynt Poule sayth, a thynge very harde to do. For the spyrytuall creature whyche baptysme begeteth and createth of new: penaunce fyndynge by synne agayne all to frus [...]hed, plastereth and patcheth vppe and maketh mych wo [...]e to cure the wounde and brynge it to a scarre.

[...]ude for my parte be very well content, that synne & pay [...] and all were as shortely gone as Tyndale telleth vs. But I were lothe that he deceyued vs yf it be not so. And therfor [...] to the entent it may the better appere that penaūce is necessary, and that to retourne to god and clene to be for­gyuen, [Page clxiiii] is not so lyght a thynge as Tyndale maketh it / but A that the chyrche of Cryste appoyntyng payne for the synne, and not a bare forethynkynge or repentaunce as Tyndale wolde haue it, is therein taughte by the holy spyryte of god: let euery man consyder in what wyse the prophete Ioell de­scrybeth the maner, wyth whyche man sholde retourne to god agayne after synne. The lorde sayth, Iche [...] 2. retourne to me wyth all your harte in fastynge, in wepynge, and weylyng. Teare your hertes and not your garmentes, and retourne to your lorde god. For he is benygne and mercyfull, pacyēt, and plentuouse of mercy, and redy to forgyue synne.

Tyndale.

And yt wyll folow yf I repente in the herte / that I shall do no more so wyl [...]lyngly and of purpose.

More. B

In these few wordes there are many doutes. Fyrste how Tyndale taketh repentynge in the harte / whether he meane that who so repēteth in his harte shall no more do so agayne wyllyngly and of purpose, as longe as he so repenteth, or ellys that who so repent onys in his harte, shall neuer ceace to repente / or though he do, shall neuer yet do more so wyl­lyngly and of purpose whyle he lyueth. And yf he meane in the fyrste manner, his wordes be lytle to purpose. For yf he graunte that though he repent at one tyme, he may ceace to repente at a nother, and then do as euyll as he dyd, and be as euyll as he was: then had I as leue that he sayed y ^• man whych onys repēteth, wyll do so no more as long as he doth so no more, and wyll be good styll tyll he be nought agayne

Now yf he meane in the secunde manner, that who so re­penteth C onys in his herte, can neuer after ceace to repente as long as euer he lyueth / or though he ceace to repent shall yet as longe as euer he lyueth, neuer wyllyngly and of purpose fall to synne agayne: thē eyther of all that fall to synne agayne, that is to wyt of all cryst [...] people allmoste, there was neuer none that euer repented in [...]arte / in [...] who so euer haue onys repented in his harte, all y ^e [...] that euer he doth after he doth none of them wylly [...]/or at the lefte he doth them not of purpose, but [...] by chaunce & myssehappe, ere euer hym selfe [...]ew [...]re therof at aduenture sodaynly.

Now yf he saye that neuer any whych do synne agayne, dyd hartely repente byfore / and then that he requyre [...] [...] [Page clxv] A then herty repētaunce of man for his recōcylyacyon to god: he preacheth vs no gospell nor telleth vs no glad tydynges, but the heuyeste tydynges that euer man tolde. For then he telleth vs playne y ^t of all cristen people there is almost none that standeth in state of grace lenger then the lakke of rea­son excuseth the defaute of his dede / or that the lakke of lyfe leueth hym no tyme to synne agayne after his repentaunce. For we playnely se that such as repent fall agayne to synne / and so by hym they neuer so repented that euer they were reconcyled agayne to god in all theyr hole lyfe. And then were there also mych doute of theyr deth. For though yt be good in some case, yet were yt not good alwaye that euery man were ouer bolde vppon the sodayne grace that y ^e these gate at laste, that honge on the crosse at Crystes ryght hande.

B And yf Tyndale wene to make the mater more easy, by­cause he sayth he that repenteth in harte wyll do so no more, meanynge that he wyll no more fall to that kynde of synne: this wyll not serue hym. For he falleth out of goddes fa­uour and the state of grace by the commyttyng of any other synne that is vppon his damnacion forboden. And therfore yf harty repentaunce be able for euer to kepe hym from one kynde / yt muste be able to kepe hym frō euery kynde of lyke dedelynesse, or ellys yt suffyseth not.

Now to the tother poynt. If Tyndale thynke to ease all the mater by this that he sayeth not, that he whyche repen­teth in harte shall do so no more / but that he shall do so no more wyllyngly and of purpose: then ryseth there a nother doute what he calleth wyllyngly and of purpose.

C He hath as yt semeth some other vnderstandynge of this worde wylly [...]gly, then other men haue. we saye that yf he do yt not wyllyngly / he synneth not at all yf his wyll no­ [...]hynge do therein at all; except yt depende vpon some other synne of hym selfe done wyllyngly byfore / as where a man synfully falleth in dronkenesse or in fransye, and then dron­ [...]e [...] or frantyke doth harme / or where as one man geueth other occasyon of ruyne, as Tyndale dothe, when men be [...] here wyth his bokes, and after damned for his here [...], such mē peraduēture as he neuer knew / and yet fallen all th [...] dethys both of body and soule in Tyndales nekke. For as [...] sa [...]nte Austayne sayeth / the heretyke that is a teacher [...] a [...]etter forth of heresyes, though he be depeda­ [...] in hell [...]ll neuer ye [...] knowe the vttermoste of hys [Page clxvi] payne tyll the daye of dome. For as many men as byfore y ^• A day be damned for his heresyes: shall e [...]er as they come to hell more and more encreace his payne.

But ellys I saye, where a man hath no wyll in the dede nor in the occasion therof / there is he as I thynke no parte­ner in the synne. I wote not what Tyndale meaneth by wyllyngly and of purpose. For he is wonte to reken as though there is nothyng done willyngly y ^t is done of frayletye / nor I can not tell what he calleth purpose / how longe tyme serueth after his rekenyng to make yt done of purpose.

But this I wote well, allbe yt that there be degrees & ci [...] cūstaūces that aggreue the synne & make it more weyghty / as when yt is in the mynde longe contynued, & done of pure malyce, and such other thynges: yet yf these lakke so the damnable dede y ^t god hath forbodē to be done in dede, by hym B that is not agaynste his wyll forced there vnto / this ca [...] we wyllyngly done, & saye that he synneth dedely that so doth, all though he neuer purposed him selfe longe byfore vppon yt. As yf a man mete a nother and kyll hym s [...]enly for an angry worde / or mete a mayden sodaynly and so de [...]ore here this wolde I call wyllyngly, but yf she were so stronge or had so mych helpe that she rauyshed the mān [...]s [...] and dysuowred hym by force.

Now such thynges as these be, we dow [...]e not but y ^e folke haue fallen to agayne after repentaunce and after penauns to / and such as haue ben by the sacrament of penaunce res [...] [...]ed vnto the state of grace. And syth that these be damnable, whyther they be byfore purposed or no: therfore yf is partely false partely folysh that Tyndale sayth, that who so re­pent C in herte shall neuer do so more wyllyng [...] and of pur­pose / syth he that hathe repented [...] harte may do so agayne wyllyngly and of purpose to / & he that dyd [...] [...]sed purpose, doth yt yet for all that [...] he do yt wyllyngly.

And for cōclusyon though yt may be say [...] [...] good men of good mynde in exhortacyon in perseueraū [...] [...] good workes, agaynst the [...] of such as [...] agayne, that they [...] lyghtenes geueth [...] to thynke and saye yet to put ye for a rule and [...] as Tyndale doth, that who so repēteth onys in ha [...]te [...]all [...] wyllyngly & of purpose / & that they that synne [...] ­lyngly [Page clxvii] A and of purpose dyd neuer repent in harte, is very [...]alse doctryne & a very playne heresye.

Tyndale.

And yf I beleued the gospell, what god hath done for me in Criste: I shold su­rely loue hym agayne, and of loue prepare my selfe vnto his commaundement.

More.

It is vndowtely a very good occasyon to moue a man to loue god agayne, when he beleueth y ^e loue that god hath to hym, and the thynges that of very loue god hath done for hym. But yet it is not trew that Tyndale sayth, that euery man whyche byleueth thys loue, doeth so loue god agayne, that of loue he prepareth hym selfe vnto goddys commaundementes. I dare say that saynt Peter loued hym well / and yet he bothe forsoke hym and forsware hym to. But a man B y ^t well byleued sholde peraduenture prepare hym to goddys commaundementes, yf neyther the worlde, the flesshe, nor y ^e deuyll drewe hym bakke / nor suche heretykes worse yet thē all [...]re, [...] the r [...]te of ryght bylefe out of hys harte. And [...] standen the wordes of Tyndale wyth Luthers holy doctryne, whyche he precheth agaynste the lybertye of man­nys fre wyll / wherof yf man haue none, as theyr heresye te­cheth: then how can it be trewe that a man can of loue pre­pare hym selfe to the commaundementes of god?

And fynally yf it be trew that Tyndale sayth / that is to [...] th [...] yf he beleued the gospell he sholde surely prepare hym selfe to the cōmaundementes of god / and then yf thys be trew [...] as in dede it is, that he that doeth (as Tindale doeth) enfeete hys neyghbours wyth dedely poysened C heresyes agaynst the blessed sacramentes, & therby maketh theyr bodyes be burned in erthe wyth hys bokes, and theyr soul ys burned in helle wyth hys heresyes, is the most tray­ [...]rouse [...] of goddys commaundementes that can be [...] very clerely that Tindale byleueth not [...] gospell [...] all / and surely no more he doeth.

And now cometh he and sayth, that I knowe that all y ^• [...] for hys defence in y ^e chaunge of chyrch, preste, [...], penaunce, and suche other is trew: bycause [...] as he [...]ayth the greke afore hym / where as I by [...] knowledge as I haue of greke, latyn, and of our owne [...] tonge togyther, knowe hys defence dothe [...]. And that haue I so clerely proue [...]/that to the [...] of bothe hys [...] and hys [...]oly, [Page clxviii] there shall not greately nede y ^• knowlege of th [...] tonges nor A twayne neyther / but an indyfferent reader that vnderstan­deth englysshe, and hath in hys hed any reason or naturall wyt. For all be it that the more lernynge the reder hath, the more madnesse he shall perceyue in Tyndales defence of these thynges afore remembred: yet he that hath wyt and no lernyng at all, shall clerely perceyue inough [...]

And to that entent onely haue I taken the labour [...] an­swere hys defence, to make it open to lerned and vnlerned bothe, that he bryngeth to the mater after hys two [...] musynge thereuppon, [...]eyther insyghte of any substancyall lernynge, nor yet any profe of reason or naturall wytte, but onely a rasshe malyciouse frantyke brayde, furnysshed with a bare bolde assercyon and affyrmacyon of false poysoned heresyes. For sauynge to make thys appere / I neded not to B touche those poyntes at all. For euery man well knoweth y ^• the entent and purpose of my dyaloge was none other, but to make the people perceyue that Tyndale chaunged in his translacyon the comen knowen wordes to thentēt to [...] a chaūge in the fayth. As for ensample that he chaūged the worde chyrche in to thys worde congregacyon, bycause he wolde brynge it in questyon whyche were the chyrche / an [...] set forth Luthers heresye that the chyrch whyche we sholde byleue and obaye, is not the comen knowen body of all crysten reames remaynynge in the fayth of Cryste, not falle [...] of nor cut of wyth heresyes / as Boheme is and some parte [...] of Germany: but that the chyrche whyche we sholde byleue and obay, were some secrete vnknowē sorte of euyll lyuyng and worse byleuyng heretykes. And that he chaūged preste C into senior / bycause he entēded to set forth Luthers heresye techynge that presthed is no sacrament / but the [...] of a laye man or a laye woman appoynted by the people to pre­che. And that he chaūged penaūce into [...] he wolde set forth Luthers heresye techyng that penaūce is no sacrament.

Lo thys beyng y ^• onely purpose & entent of [...] Tyndale cometh now and expressely [...] the same thynge that I purposed to shew. For he [...] & wryteth openly those false heresyes in dede that I [...]yed then [...] ­teded after to do / so that hy [...] selfe sheweth now that I [...] then shew [...] the people trewth / & th [...] [...]eded I to make [...] answere, syth hys owne wrytyng sheweth that he made his [Page clxix] A translacyon, to the entent to set forth suche heresyes as I sayed he dyd.

For as for that that Tyndale calleth them none heresyes but the very fayth, forceth me but lytle / for so hath euery he retyque called his owne heresyes syns crystēdome fyrste by­ganne. But for all that the deuyll wyll be the deuyll though Tyndale wolde call hym god.

And I made my boke to good crysten people that know such heresyes for heresyes / to gyue thē warnynge that by scripture of his owne false forgynge (for so is his false trans­lacyon, and not the scrypture of god) he sholde not bygyle them, and make them wene the thynge were otherwyse then yt is in dede. For as for such as are so madde all redy, to take those heresyes for other then heresyes, and are thereby B them selfe no faythfull folke but heretyques, yf they lyst not to lerne and leue of, but longe to lye styll in theyr false by­lyefe: yt were all in vayne to gyue them warnynge thereof. For when theyr wyllys be bent thereto, and theyr hertys set thereon: there wyll no warnynge serue them. And therfore syth Tyndale hath here confessed in his defence, y ^t he made suche chaunges for the settynge forth of suche thynges as I sayed: yt is inough for good cristen men that know those thynges for heresyes, to abhorre and burne vppe his bokes and the lykers of them wyth them / so that as I say I neded none answere to all his defence at all, sauynge to make as I haue done, both lerned and vnlerned folke perceyue hym for an vnlerned fole. And yet defendynge hym self so fondely, and teachyng open heresyes so shamefully: he sayeth yt C appereth that there was no cause to burne his translacyon, wherein such chaunges founden as ye se, and beynge chaū ­ged for such causes as hym selfe cōfesseth / that is to wyt for a foūdacyone of such pestylent heresyes as hym selfe affer­meth & wryteth in his abomynable bokes: he myghte mych better yf he cut a mannys throte in the open strete, say there were no cause to hange hym but bydde men seke vppe hys knyfe & se yt hym safe. This myght he in good fayth myche better saye then, then he maye now say that there is no cause to burne his translacyon. wyth y ^• falsed wherof and his false heresyes brought in there wythall: he hath kylled and de­stroyed dyuerse menne, and maye hereafter many, some in body, some [...] soule, and some in [...]oth twayne.

And [...] where as in the ende he loketh so mych to [Page clxx] me, y ^t he forgeteth hym selfe / and makyng me a nother holy A sermone of my couetousenesse, my great aduauntage in seruyng in falsed, myne obstynate malyce agaynst y ^e trewth: he forgeteth in the meane whyle y ^t his owne malyce is agaynst the trewth in such manner obstynate, that he doth as the deuell dothe, endure payne for the mayntenaunce of hys false deuelyshe heresyes agaynste the treuth / and puttynge me in mynde agayne of the false prophete Balaam and his euyll ende, and that all suche resysters of the trewth come at laste vnto an euyll deth: he forgeteth in y ^e meane whyle y ^e double deth that his felowes heretyques comenly come vnto, fyrst by fyre in erth, and after by fyre in hell / saue they that at the tone renounce his deuelysh heresyes, & so escape the tother. Tyndale therfore where yt lyketh hym to lyken me to Ba­laam, Pharao, and to Iudas to, syth the pytthe of all hys B processe standeth in this one poynte, that his heresyes be the trew fayth, and that the catholyque fayth is false / that the holy dayes nor the fastyng dayes no man nede to kepe / that the dyuyne seruyces in the chyrche is all but superstycyon / that the chyrche & the ale howse is all one sauynge for such holy preachyng / that men haue no fre wyll of theyr owne to do nother good nor yll / y ^t to reuerence Crystes crosse or any saynts ymage is idolatry / that to do any good worke, faste, geue almysse, or other, with entent the rather to gete heuen, or to be the better rewarded, there is dedely synne afore god & worse then idolatrye / to thynke y ^t the masse may do menne any good mo then the preste hym selfe, were a false belyefe / a false fayth also to pray for any soule / great synne to shryue vs or to do penaunce for synne / freres may well wedde nonnes C and muste nedes haue wyues / and the sacramentes of Cryste muste serue for Tyndales iestynge stoke: these be the trewthes that Tyndole preacheth. And bycause I call these trewthes heresyes: therfore Tyndale calleth me Ba­laam, Iudas, and Pharao / and [...]hreteneth me sore wyth y ^e vengeaunce of god and wyth an euyll deth. what deth eche man shall dye that hangeth in goddes hādes / and martyrs haue dyed for god, and heretykes haue dye [...] for the deuyll. But syth I know yt very well and so doth Tyndale to, that y ^e holy sayntes dede byfore these dayes synnys Cristes tyme tyll our owne, byleued as I do / that Tyndales trewthes be [...] starke deuely [...]he heresyes: yf god gyue me the grace to suf­fer for sayeng the same / I shall neuer in my ryght wyt wysh [Page clxxi] A to dye better. And therfore syth all the mater stādeth in this poynte alone / that yf his heresyes be the trew fayth, then I stande in parell / and yf they be a false fayth, I maye be safe inought: lette hym leue his sermon har­dely for the whyle, and fyrste go proue his lyes trewe, and then come a­gayne and preache, and frere Luther also & his lemman wyth hym to / and then may the geese prouyde the foxe a pul­pette.

Tyndale.

Whyther the chyrche were before the gospell, or the gospell be­fore the chyrche. [Page clxxv] A An other dowte there is, whether the chyrche or congregacyon be before the gospell, or the gospell before the chyrche. whyche questyon is as harde to solue, as whether the father be elder then the sonne, or the sonne elder then his father. For the hole scrypture and all byleuynge hertes testyfye, that we are begottē thorow the worde. Wherfore yf the worde begette the congregacyon, and he that begetteth is before hym that is begotten: then is the gospell before the chyrche. Pause also Romano. ix. sayth: how shall they call on whom they beleue not. And how shall they byleue without a precher. That is, Cryste must fyrste be preached ere men can byleue in hym. And then it foloweth, that the worde of the preacher muste be before the fayth of the byleuer. And therfore in as mych as the word is before the fayth, and fayth maketh the congregacyon: therfore is the worde or gospell before the congregacyon.

More.

Lo he that redeth this and hereth not thanswere, excepte B hym selfe be well ryped in the mater: maye wene that Tyn­dale in these wordes had quyt hym selfe lyke a man, & borne me ouer quyte / he solueth the obieccyon so playnely, & play­eth therwith so pleasauntely. But now when ye shall vnderstande that neuer man was so madde to make thys obieccy­on to Tindale but hym selfe: then shall ye laughe to se that he wresteleth all alone & gyueth hym selfe a fall, and in hys mery solucyon mokketh also no man but hym selfe.

I sayed in my dyaloge that the chyrche was before the gospell was wrytē, and that the fayth was taught and men were baptysed, and masses sayd and the other sacramentes mynystred amonge crysten people, before any parte of the newe testament was put in wrytynge / and that this was done by the word of god vnwryten. And I sayed also there, C and yet say here agayne / [...]hat the ryght fayth whiche Adam had and suche as in the same fayth succeded hym, longe ere wrytynge beganne, was taught by the worde of god vnwryten / and so went from man to man, fro the father to y ^e sonne by mouth. And I sayed that thys worde of god vnwryten / is of as greate authoryte as is the worde of god wryten.

I shewed also that the chyrche of Cryste hath ben, is, and [...]uer shall be, taught and instructed by god and hys holy sp [...]ryt wyth hys holy worde of eyther kynde / that is to wyt bothe wyth hys worde wryten and hys worde vnwryten / and that they whyche wyll not byleue goddes worde but yf he put it in [...]ynge, be as playne infydeles as they y ^t wyll not byleue it wryten / syth goddes worde taketh hys autho­ryte of god th [...] s [...]eketh it, an [...] not of man that wryteth it. [Page clxxvi] And there is lyke suertye and lyke certayne knowledge of A the worde of god vnwryten, as there is of the worde of god wryten / syth ye knowe neyther the tone nor the tother to be the worde of god, but by the tradycyon of the chyrche. which chyrch as all crysten men byleue, and the scripture sheweth, and saynt Austayne declareth, and Luther hym selfe confefseth, and the deuyll hym selfe sayeth not nay / the blessed spyryte of god hath inwardely taught, teacheth, and euer shall teache, to know, iudge, and dyscerne the worde of god from the worde of man / and shall kepe the chyrche from errour ledynge in to euery trouthe / as Cryste sayth hym selfe in the .xvi. chapyter of saynt Iohn̄s gospell. whych he dyd not yf he suffered the chyrche to be dampnably deceyued in ta­kynge the worde of man for y ^e word of god / wherby it sholde in stede of seruyce to be done to god, fall in vnfaythfulnes, B and wyth idolatry do seruyce to the deuyll.

And therfore I shewed in my sayd dyaloge / and yet the kynges hyghnes mych more playnely shewed in hys moste erudyte famouse boke agaynst Luther out of which I toke it: that the word of god vnwryten is of as grete authoryte, as certayne, and as sure, as is hys worde wryten in the scrypture / whyche poynt is so faste and sure pytched vppon the rokke our sauyour Cryste hym selfe, that neyther Luther, Tyndale, nor Huskyn, nor all the hell houndes that the de­uyll hath in his kenell, neuer hytherto coulde, nor whyle god lyueth in heuen and the deuyll lyeth in hell neuer heraf­ter shall (barke they, bawle they neuer so faste) be able to wreste yt out.

And that they be all as I tell you so feble in this poynte, C whereuppon theffecte of all theyr hole heresies hangeth (for but yf they veynquysh this one poynt, all theyr heresyes fully be burned vppe and fall as flatte to asshen as yt were all moyse all obstinate heretyques dyd) ye maye se a clere [...]roue by these wordes of Tyndale, whyche he hath sette so glory­ously forth in the fore fronte of his batayle, as th [...]gh they were able to wynne the hole felde. For where as I sayed y ^t the gospell and the worde of god vnwryten was byfore th [...] chyrche / and by yt was the chyrche begonne, gathered, and tought / and that the chyrche was byfore that the gospell y ^t now is wryten was wryten, that is to wyt byfore any par [...] of the gospell was wryten / for as for all y ^e hole gospell, [...] is to wyt all the wordes of god that he wold haue [...] [Page clxxvii] A byleued, and kepte, was yet neuer wryten: this beynge the thynge that I sayd, Tyndale wyth all the helpe he hath had of all the heretyques in Almayne this two or thre yere to gether / is yet in such dyspayre to be able to matche therewith, that he is wyth shame inough fayne to forgete that I sayed the chyrche was byfore the gospell wryten, whyche thynge hym selfe can not denye, and is fayne to frame the doute & make the obieccyon / as though I had sayed that the chyrch had bene byfore the gospell and the worde of god vnwriten / wherof hym selfe knoweth well that I sayed clene the con­trarye. And therfore good readers hauynge this thynge in your remembraunce: take now the payne to reade Tyn­dales wordes agayn, and ye shall haue a pleasure to se how fondely he iugleth afore you. For now his crafte opened & B declared vnto you: ye shall perceyue y ^t he playeth nothynge clene / but fareth lyke a iugler that conuayeth his galies so craftely, that all the table spyeth them.

Tyndale.

And agayne as the ayer is darke of yt selfe, and receyueth all her lyght of the sonne: euen so are all mennes hertes of them selfe darke wyth lyes, and receyue all theyr trewth of goddes worde, in that they consent therto.

More.

And this lyketh me very well / and so myche the better by cause that the goodnesse of god causeth Tyndale to speke these wordes, nothyng touchyng the mater for any reprofe of my boke / but onely reprouynge hym self and condēnyng all his hole secte. For I neuer sayed, nor no man ellys as I suppose neyther crysten nor hethen / that god taketh hys C trewth or his lyght of man but man of god. And therfore this holy sermone he spendeth but in waste / sauynge as I sayde for the condemnynge of hym selfe and his secte.

For syth yt is trew that by the lyght of god as Tyndale here confesseth, mennys hartes be clensed from lyes & false opynyons and from thynkyng euyll good, and therfore frō consentynge to synne / and we se well that Tyndale and all hys secte be sette all vppon heresyes & false blasphemouse lyes, and thynke (yf they thynke as they saye) bothe euyll good & good euyll / for they call Crystes sacramentes euyll and [...] lechery good / and so not onely cōsent to synne but also commytte and defende and teache the whole dede stynkyn [...] [...] of synne: yt foloweth by Tyndales own holy sermon here, that his owne herte and the hertes of all hys [Page clxxviii] whole secte be the darke ayer of hell / from which the lyght of A goddes owne gloryouse sonne that came to geue lyght in to y ^e darke ayre of this erth, hath farre wythdrawē his bemys. And this hath Tyndale wyth his owne holy wordes deuy­sed of none occasyon / and farre from the mater but onely to shew y ^e glorye of his hygh spyrituall phrase: nothyng done at all but geuyn hym selfe a fall, and throwen all hys ma­ter in the myre.

yet hath he one worde, by whyche it appereth that whyle he saw hym selfe fallen: he wolde pull downe other men in to the myre to hym. For yf ye consyder hys wordes / ye shall se that he cowcheth them in suche wyse, that he wolde make men wene that where so euer there were a trew bylefe and false opynyons taken awaye / that there it muste nedes be y ^t men shall not consent to synne. whyche thynge he doeth for B the colour and cloke of theyr false opynyon, by whyche they teche that fayth alone alwaye suffyseth / wherin when they fynde them selfe so shamefully confuted and conuicted, they be loth to seme to fle by day, and therefore they fle by nyght and retrete them selfe in the darke / makyng as though they were mysse taken and ment no thyng, but that who so haue a ryght byleue & not a false opynyō, it can not be but that he must nedys do well as Tyndale sayth here, y ^t he which doth not byleue euyll to be good, he shall neuer consent to synne.

As it is a greate foly to afferme thys / so were it all moste as mych foly to cōfute thys. For who is there that thynketh that to kyll a man for hys money is no synne and yet many wretches do it. who thynketh that aduowtry is no synne, & yet many wretches do it. who th [...]nketh y ^t to wedde a nonne C is no synne / I dare saye not euyn these wretches them self y ^t wedde them, but they veryly know it for synne and yet the wretches do it. And therfore thys tale of Tyndales is but a very folys [...]he heresye.

Tyndale.

Iohn̄ .xvij. Sanctyfye them o father thorow thy trewth. And thy worde is trewth. And thus thou seyst that goddys trewth dependeth not of man. It is not trew bycause man so sayth o [...] admitteth it for trew.

More [...]

whereof serueth all this whyle no man sayed y ^e contrary.

Tyndale.

But man is trew bycause he byle [...]eth it, testyfyeth, and gyu [...]th wyl [...] [...] hy [...] harte that yt is trew.

A More.

Nay pe [...]de thys is not alway trew. For saynt Peter hym selfe was not trew, when he testyfyed & gaue wytnesse wyth hys mayster in his harte, and yet forsware hym openly with hys mowth. And Iudas byleued in hys harte that goddys worde was trew / and yet was hym selfe not trew but a false thefe and a false traytour to. And now adayes also be there many false theuys and traytours vnto god, false heretykes I meane, that by the worde of god byleue and wote well inough that it is abomynable thefte and sacrylege for a frere to wedde a nonne / and yet as false harlottes bothe, do and teche the contrary to theyr owne bylefe.

Tyndale.

And Cryste also sayth hym selfe Iohn̄ .v. I receyue no wytnesse of man. For yf B the multytude of mann ys wytnesse myghte make ought trew: then were the the doctryne of Machomet trewer then Crystes.

More.

Now cometh he sumwhat to hys purpose in dede / but he cometh to a full shrewde purpose. For by these wordes of Cryste in the fyfth chapyter of Iohn̄ / he wolde make it seme that there sholde no credence be gyuen to y ^e chyrche bycause they be men / and therefore can not as Tyndale sayth [...]ere [...]ytnesse vnto Cryste nor hys worde, syth Cryste sayth hym selfe I receyue no wytnesse of man. To thys purpose hath he brought forth all hys gaye paynted processe byfore / the glyterynge wherof he hopeth sholde so dase our eyen, that we sh [...]lde not se the falsed of hys shorte sodayne conclusyō, in whych he knytteth vp Cryste and Machomet togyther, C to confounde the credence and authoryte of Crystes chyrch.

But good crysten readers, dyfferrynge for y ^e whyle Ma­chomett [...]s doctryne wyth whom Tyndale maye make a matche: I shall shewe you what fraude and deceyt Tyn­ [...]le here vseth, bothe in the translatyng and in the interpretacyon of these wordes of our sauyour Cryste, that he reher­ [...]th wryten in the fyfthe chapy [...]r of saynt Iohn̄. Cryste in [...] place neyther meaneth nor sayth, that he taketh no wyt [...] man as Tyndale reherseth / but he bothe meaneth & [...] he taketh not hys specyall wytnesse of man but [...] to the entent that ye maye the better perceyue [...] heresye seme proued by the gospell, he [...] the [...]. ye shall vnderstande that the latyn tonge [...] artycle that y ^e greke hath, [Page clxxx] and whiche artycle in parte both oue englysh langage hath, A and the frenche also, and dyue [...]se other t [...]ges, and yt is in englyshe this worde, the. For wher [...] as we ha [...]e two ar­tycles in englysh, a and the: a or an (for both is one artycle, to tone byfore a consonaunt the tother byfore [...] vowell) is cō men to euery thyng almost. But the sygnifyeth often tymes some specyall thynge, and dyuydeth yt from y ^e generall. As when I saye a man or a horse / yt standeth indyfferent, & [...]pereth not what man or what horse I meane. For if I vow be so vnwyse to say to my seruaūt, go [...]o me this [...]tand to a man / he sholde not wyt what man he sholde go to. But wh [...] I saye, go do this erand to the man: he woteth wel [...] that I meane a certayne specyall man to hym and me knowen, to whom the erand perteyneth. This artycle the, doth ther­fore in oure englyshe tonge gyue great lyght vnto the sen­tence / and B the greke tonge hath an artycle y ^t doth the lyke in theyrs / & the lakke of the lyke doth in the latyne tonge leue often tymys the sentence obscure and darke, whyche [...]olde wyth that artycle yf the latyne langage had yt, appere open and playne.

I shall shew you fyrste an example therof in the [...] cha [...] pyter of the gospell of saynte Iohn̄, whyche place Ty [...]le hath wronge translated also / for what cause the deuyll and he knoweth. For Tyndale is not ignoraunt of that artycle, neyther the greke nor the englyshe, and maketh hym felt as though he translated y ^e new testament out of greke. The [...]e wordes be the wordes of the gospell in that place after Tyndales translacyon:

This ys the recorde of Iohn̄, when the Iewes sent prestes and seu [...]es fro [...] C Hierusalem to aske hym what art, thou / and he confessed a [...]d denyed not and sayed playnely I am not Criste. And they asked hym what [...]ē, arte [...] lias. And he sayed I am not. Arte thou a prophete. And he answered [...]

I wolde not here note by the [...]uaye, that Tyndale here translateth no for nay, for yt is but a trys [...]e and wysta [...]yng of the englyshe worde: sauynge that ye sholde se [...] he which in two so playne englyshe wordes, and so co [...]e as is [...] and no, can not tell when he sholde take the tone, and [...] the tother / is not for translatynge in to englyshe, a [...] very mete. For the vse of those two wordes in answery [...]e to a questyon is this. No answereth the questyon [...] by the affyrmatyue. As for ensample, yf a man [...] Tyndale hym selfe: is an heretyke mete to transla [...] [Page clxxxi] A scrypture into englyshe. Lo to this questyon yf he wyll an­swere trew englyshe, he muste answere nay and not no. But and yf the questyon be asked hym thus lo: Is not an here­tyque mete to translate holy scripture into englysh. To this questyon lo yf he wyll answere trew englyshe, he muste an­swere no & not nay. And a lyke dyfference is there bytwene these two aduerbis ye, and yes. For yf the questyon be fra­med vnto Tyndale by thaffyrmatyue in this fasshyō. If an heretyke fasely translate the new testament in to englysh, to make his false heresyes seme the word of god, be his bokes wurthy to be burned? To this questyon asked in this wyse, yf he wyll answere trew englyshe he muste answere ye and not yes. But now yf the questyon be asked hym thus lo by the negatiue: If an heretyque falsely translate the new testament B in to englysh, to make his false heresyes seme y ^e worde of god / be not his bokes well worthy to be burned? To this questyon in thys fasshyon framed yf he wyll answere trew englyshe, he maye not answere ye, but he muste answere yes, and saye yes mary be they, both the translacyon and the translatour, and all that wyll holde wyth them.

And thys thynge lo though yt be no greate mater / yet I haue thought good to gyue Tyndale warnynge of, by­cause I wolde haue hym wryte trewe one waye or other / that though I can not make hym by no meane to wryte trewe mater, I wolde haue hym yet at the leste wyse wryte tre [...] englyshe.

But now to the mater selfe. ye se that by Tyndals trans­lacyon y ^e iewes asked of saynt Iohn̄ whether he were a pro­phete C and that he answered nay / and so he denyed that he was a pr [...]phete. Now doeth Cryste testyfye of hym, that he was b [...]h a prophete and more thē a prophete / so y ^t yf saynt Iohn̄ sholde say of hym selfe that he was no prophete, and Crysts sayed yes / eyther sholde saynt Iohn̄ say vntrew hym selfe, or ellys sholde there an vnt [...]th be spokē by y ^e mouth of our sauyour hym selfe / of whyche two thynges the tone is [...]edyble and the tother impossyble. And in the latyne [...] thynge is lefte in dowt [...] for lakke as I tolde you [...] correspondent to y ^e greke artytle & to the en­ [...] the / and for that cause some eyght holy men [...] were for [...] of y ^e greke tonge myth [...] be vnderstanden [...] perceyuynge the [Page clxxxii] artycle / saw well inough that he sholde not haue translated A it in to the englyshe, art thou a prophete, but art thou y ^e pro­phete / and then were the mater open and playne. For they asked hym not whyther he were a prophete, that is to wytte whyther he were any prophete / but whyther he were the prophete, that is to wyt the greate prophete of whom Moyses prophesyed and promysed in the dewteronomy / of whyche prophete there was opynyon amonge many of the iewes, Deuter. 18. not that he sholde be Cryste but a grete prophete that shold come before hym / and therfore they asked saynt Iohn̄, arte thou the prophete, menynge that specyall prophete. And yet the iewes that asked saynt Iohn̄ the questyon, notwyth standynge that by theyr owne questyon they knewe that he dyd not in hys answere denye hym selfe to be any prophete, B but that specyall prophete of whome they ment: dyd yet falsely reherse hym in theyr anger, when they sayd agayne vnto hym, yf thou be neyther Cryste nor Nelyas nor prophete, why baptysest thou then. And as y ^e iewes dyd then wyttyngly false reherse hym: so doth Tyndale as falsely now trans­late hym / makynge it seme that by theyr questyon and hys answere, eyther saynte Iohn̄ sholde saye vntrew, or ellys ou [...] sauyour hym selfe. And for what intēt let Tyndale hym selfe tell / but that he so doeth hys translacyon sheweth. And that he doeth it wyttyngly well appereth, by that he is not so ignoraūt in the greke tonge, but that he knoweth the ar­tycle there whyche he sholde haue taken in to the englysshe / and in many other places so hath he done. And in this place yf he had not perceyued it hym selfe: yet y ^t good vertuouse and well lerned man Nicholas de lyra, gaue hym warnyng therof / whom though Tyndale lyste to set at so shorte and mokke and scorne, sayenge that Lyra desirat: yet he shall not say nay but he gaue hym good warnynge here, and hath in dede more good lernynge in the scrypture of god, then hath Luther and Huchyns, and fyue frere Huys [...]yns, & as many frere Lambertes to.

Now that I haue shewed you somwhat of the strength and effecte of the artycle, bothe greke and englysshe, whych declareth that the worde whereto it is set, sygnyfyeth not a thynge generally and confuse at large, but some specyall thynge determynate of that kynde / and that I haue sh [...]ed you one ensample therof in y ^e gospell whyche Tyndale h [...] euyll translated: I wyll now go ferther and shew you [...] [Page clxxxiii] A he hath euyll translated also thys selfe same texte of saynte Iohn̄ to, whyche he now alledgeth, & hath therin falsyfyed the wordes of our sauyour hym selfe, whyche he now bryn­geth forth for hys purpose.

The wordys spoken by our lorde be as Tyndale hath translated them these, I take no recorde of man. In the la­tyn they be thus Ego testimonium ab homine non recipio. whyche yf it be translated into englysshe without the artycle as the latyn hath none / then is it thus, I take not recorde of man, and not as Tyndale hath translated, I take no recorde of man He maketh his englyshe as though the latyn were, ego nullum testimonium ab homine recipio. And whyther the sentence be precy­sely both one in these twayne, I take not recorde of man, & I take no recorde of mā: we shall not now nede to dispute, B syth Tyndale taketh the sentence wronge whyche of them both so euer were the wordes, as I shall shew anon. But fyrste I shall go forth and shew you as I byganne, that he sholde haue translated the wordes in to englysh otherwyse / and therby haue expressed the greke the better, and yet not contraryed the latyne.

ye shall therfore vnderstande that in that place of saynt Iohn̄ the fyfte chapyter, where Tyndale hathe translated Crystes wordes in this wyse, I receyue no recorde of man: the greke boke hath there vppon thys worde recorde the ar­tycle, that is as I haue shewed you correspondent vnto our englyshe artycle the / by which artycle put byfore y ^e word re­corde, that word there in the tonge in whych theuangelyste wrote the wordes hym selfe, sygnyfyeth not a comen record C in generall, but a certayn [...] specyall kynde of recorde / as the greke artycle made the worde prophete in the fyrste chapy­ter, to sygnyfye not a prophete in generall, but a specyall prophete whome the Iewes loked for.

And therfore I saye that Tyndale sholde in his englysh translacyon not haue lefte oute that artycle the / but sholde at the leste wyse haue translated yt thus, I receyue not the recorde of man / where as wyth his translatyng no record, y ^t article the, wheruppon the wayght of the sentence hangeth / he hath not onely lefte oute but clene excluded also. For yf he had translated yt, I receyue not recorde of man, though he le [...]t oute the [...] yet he myght take yt in there to and mende yt, makynge [...] I receyue not the recorde yf man. But now that he hath translated yt, I receyue no recorde of man: he [Page clxxxiiii] hathe excluded yt vtterly but if he take in not, and putte out A his false no / for he can not saye I receyue no the recorde of man. And thys hathe he done not of ignoraunce but of ma­lyce, to make yt seme that Cryste vtterly refuseth and reiec­teth all maner wytnesse of man, in testyfycacyon and wyt­nessynge of hym and his trouth. And this translacyon therfore deuyseth Tyndale / bycause he wold haue vs wene that Cryste wolde haue the wytnesse of all his chyrche vtterly serue of noughte.

But now bycause yt wyll peraduenture seme vnto some menne, that though he had in his translacyon expressed the greke artycle and made yt thus, I take not the recorde of man, that yet yt were all one and no differēce bytwene those wordes and these, I take no recorde of man: of trouth the dyfference is not ethe for euery man to man to perceyue / & B yet some difference is there in dede, as there is bytwene these twayne: If a man wolde saye in spekynge of god and Moyses, I take Moyses for no leder of the chylderne of Israell / he shold say wrong, for he shold deny hym to haue ben theyr leder in any maner wyse, as he was theyr leder in dede. But yf he wolde saye I take not Moyses for the leder of the chylderne of Israel, he shold saye well inough / for he shold therby not vtterly denye Moyses to haue bene any maner leder of them / but he shold denye that he was theyr onely leder or theyr chyefe leder / meanynge that though he were a leder, yet god was the leder, that is to wyt the chyefe leder. Now yf any yet perceyue not clerely the strength of this artycle: he maye consyder that yt is not all one to saye, I take you for no man, or I take you uot for a mā / & I take you not for C the man. The two fyrste excludeth hym vtterly from all the nature and kynde of man / the thyrd doth but denye hym to de some such certayne man as they meane of.

But yet shall ye ferther vnderstande that as I sayd in the begynnynge, though oure artycle the, be correspondent vn­to the greke article in declaryng the certayntie of the thyng that it is put vnto, and in restraynynge the worde from hys generall sygnyfycacyō to a more determynate especyaltye / and that in many thynges thys is very playne and clere: yet doeth not our artycle somtyme so fully and so effectually declare that thynge as doeth the artycle in the greke specy­ally, but yf we chaunge the order of our englysshe wordes from the order of the greke. And therfore I saye, that to put [Page clxxxv] A away the dowte and for the better expressyng of the artycle / Tyndale shold in the translatynge of that place, haue chaū ged somwhat the order of y ^e wordes. And where they lye in the latyn in thys wyse: I receyue not the recorde of man / he sholde rather haue translated it thus: the recorde I re­ceyue not of man. For by so translatynge those wordes, and so chaungynge the order: he sholde haue gone more nere to the expressynge of y ^e very sentence that Cryste there spake and ment / whyche was that the specyall recorde he toke not of man but of god / and not that he wolde take of man no maner recorde at all, as I shall anone so clerely proue you, that Tyndale shall neuer whyle he lyueth wade out therof.

But fyrst it wyll happely seme hard to some men, that he whyche translateth sholde in hys translatynge make any B chaunge in the order of the wordes. ye shall vnderstande y ^t it is a thyng whych he must many tymes nedys do / bycause of the maners and formes of spekyng in dyuers langages. For yf he shall alwaye translate worde for worde and in the order as it stādeth / he shall somtyme gyue a sentence vnable to be perceyued or vnderstanden / and somtyme a wronge sentence, ye & somtyme a contrary to, of all whyche I coude gyue you samples were it not bothe nedeles & also to longe for thys present boke.

I wyll therfore of a greate many gyue you but one / in whyche Tyndale hath for lakke of chaungynge the order of the wordes, translated a very playne place in the very be­gynnynge of saynt Iohn̄s gospell, whyther wronge or no lette other iudge / but surely otherwyse then I wolde haue C done.

Hys translacyon is thys, In the begynnyng was that worde, and that worde was with god, and god was that worde.

Fyrst thys worde that, putteth Tyndale for the artycle the, wherof I haue shewed you before / wherin he doth mych a mysse. For it is no dowte but that it is here put for to syg­nyfye the specyaltye of the thynge, as of god and the worde / bycause there be many wordes, and the paynyms worshyp­ped many goddes / y ^e artycle is set to those wordes to sygny­fye not a worde nor a god, as though it were one of y ^e many wordes of men, or one of the many goddys of paynyms / but the god and the worde that is the synguler god and the synguler worde, that is to wyt the worde of god. And that artycle is not in englysshe thys word that, as Tyndale hath [Page clxxxvi] translated / but thys word the, as he sholde haue translated / A but yf he wyll turne the artycle out of hys kynde.

A man maye say the man that we spake of was here, or that man that we spake of was here. But and yf he speke of hym absolutely, wythout mencyon of any speche before had wyth hym, he muste then saye, the man was here / and maye not saye, that man was here, but yf he adde sumwhat to it.

If ye speke of the cheyfe capytayne of the felde / ye maye saye, the capytayne wyll marche on to morow. But ye maye not saye, that capytayne wyll march on to morow, but yf ye shewe whych capytayne by some other token, or ellys poynt hym wyth your fynger. And Tyndale knoweth thys well inough / and therfore he calleth god all waye the lorde, and not a lorde nor that lorde. And therfore I meruayle why he translated In principio erat verbum, In the begynnyng was that B worde / for surely that worde that, was not to begynne with all nor to stande there, but yf Tyndale entended to mokke.

But as I was about to saye, where he translateth god was the worde / all be it that in the greke and in the latyne it doeth well inough, and in the englysshe that maner of spekynge maye stande in many other thynges, and specyally in the plurell nomber, or in the fyrst persone or the seconde synguler, where the thynges that we speke of or the artycle or the dyuersyte of the worde whyche is in the verbe in our en­glysshe tonge, chaunged in those two persons synguler, ta­keth the dowte awaye, and maketh the mater open whyche of the two termys we take for subiectum and whyche for praedi­catum: yet in thys greate mater I wolde rather in our owne tonge haue chaunged and turne [...] the order of the wordes & C translate it thus: the word was god / then as Tyndale doth god was the word / lykewyse as I wold in englysshe rather saye Cryste was god, then god was Cryst. For these wordes god was Cryste, or god was the worde be not well spoken / sauynge that we vnderstande thereby the tother wyth the wordes chaunged, that is to wyt Cryste was god, and the worde was god. For ellys vnderstanden as it standeth god was Cryste / were as mych to saye as that all y ^• thre persons the father, sonne, and holy gooste were Cryste all thre.

How be yt I saye not this to shew that I thynke y ^t Tyndale mēt any euyll in this / nor I impugne not in this pa [...] his traslacyon so greatly, but yt maye be borne: but [...] the tother is in englyshe better and more clere. And [...] [Page clxxxvii] A this / to shew that the order of the texte in scripture, maye be sometyme by y ^e translatour better chaunged then kept. And I tell you this to thentent that ye maye the more clerely perceyue, that Tyndale sholde not haue letted in y ^e tother place that he alleged in the fy [...]the of saynte Iohn̄, I receyue no recorde of man / to chaūge the order of y ^e wordes wyth settyng in the artycle, and to haue sayed, the recorde I receyue not of man. ye and syth the artycle sygnifyeth the specyall kynd of recorde: rather then to do as he hathe done leue yt quyte out, as though god refused all maner wytnesse of man / he sholde rather haue translated yt, the chyefe recorde I re­ceyue not of man / as hym self hath in y ^e .xiiii. of saynt Iohn̄ translated, the chyefe ruler of thys worlde commeth / where as in the greke is not this worde chyefe / but that he putteth B yt in hym selfe bycause of the artycle, whyche he wolde not withdraw from the deuyll, te [...] he shold haue mynyshed his honour. But he wythdraweth yt here from the wytnesse of god / bycause he wold take from god the witnesse of all trew crysten people, whyche by theyr trew bylyef do sette theyr sealys as wytnesses to the trewth of god.

Now yf he wyll contende and stryue wyth vs vppon the vygour & strength of this artycle the, or of his correspondēt in the greke / and brynge vs forth example in our speche or in the greke eyther, in whyche yt maye seme that those artycles haue not alway that man [...]r strength: all this shall no­thynge [...] all.

[...] [Page clxxxviii] receyuynge. Now yt is not all one to say I take no recorde A of man, & to saye I receyue no reorde of man. For the tone sygnyfyeth y ^t I care not greatly for yt, nor y ^• I [...]wyll not go aboue yt. But the tother I receyue no wytnesse of man / sy­gnyfyeth that I wyll not receyue yt but refuse yt though yt be offerde / or ellys a nother thyng whyche wyll not serue for Tyndales excuse, that is to wyt, I receyue none bycause no man o [...] erth me none. But Cryste wythout sekynge for yt, was offerd the wytnesse of saynt Iohn̄ / whych Tyndale maketh as though Cryste rei [...]cted, whyle he falsely translateth the wordes or our sauyour, and maketh hym say, I receyue as wytnesse of man.

Now shall I playnely shew you by many places of scry­pture, that yt ys false that Cryste receyueth no recorde of B man / and then may ye therby se that Tyndale hath translated false. Or yf he wolde blynde you wyth brabelynges vp­pon the greke tong / ye shall at y ^e leste wyse ꝑceyue playnely, that he taketh the sentēce falsely. For these two be playne repugnaūt, that god receyueth some recorde of man / and that god receyueth no recorde of man.

For Tyndale can [...] saye [...] here that Cryste spake yt there by the fygure called ype [...]bole, as saynte Iohn̄ dyd where he sayed [...] his wytnesse no man taketh, meanyng very few. Our sauyour hym selfe in the .xxliii chapyter of saynt Luke, whē he had shewed his apostles and other of his dyscyples that all thynge wrytē of hym by Moyses and the prophetes and in the psalmes, were and most be fullfylled / and theruppon opened theyr wyttes to the vnderstandyng of scripture, and sayed vnto hym, thus yt is [...] & thus yt dehoued Criste C to suffer and to ryse agayne from deth the thyrd daye, & [...] penan̄ce and [...]omyssyon of synnys sholde be preach [...]d in his name amonge all nacyons begynnynge at Hierusalem [...] he sayed vnto them forther, and ye are wytnesses of [...] ges / & lo I wyll sende the promyse of my father [...] but tary you in Hierusalem tyll ye be endewed wyth power [...]rom an hygh.

[...]

He sayeth also hymselfe [...] [Page clxxxix] A ende. The new testament is full of those places / in which yt appereth playnely that men be the wytnesses of god. For though that hys tre [...]th is so iustyfyed in yt selfe, that yt nedeth no wytnesse neyther of man nor angell, as touchynge any nede that god hath for hym selfe: yeth syth he entendeth to worke the waye to mannes saluacyon, not by onely my­racle (wherby he myght yf he wolde so wreste man [...]es wyll to consent, that he sholde not fayle to byleue / or caste in to y ^e he [...] such [...] a lyght of vnderstandynge, y ^t he sholde not fayle to knowe euery artycle of the fayth) but also by a naturall waye ioyned thervnto / wherin the wyll of man maye by the labour of hym selfe wyth god in the captyuynge of his wyt, wyth helpe of grace in to the obedyence of the worde of god, somwhat indeuour hym selfe towarde his owne saluacyon B by fayth: yt pleaseth god to vse in thys waye the wytnesse of men for a meane / as he sayth in the same .v. chapyter spekynge of the wytnesse of saynt Iohn̄, where he sayth, there cord I take not of man, but I tell you this bycause ye shold be s [...]ed / geuyng thē knowlege y ^t though his credēce hang not vppon the mouth of man, for he hath as he there sayth a greater wytnesse then y ^e wytnesse of saynt Iohn̄, y ^t is to wyt the wytnesse of y ^e father hym selfe: yet was yt ordeyned y ^t he shold haue also y ^e witnesse of saynt Iohn̄, & so afterwarde of hys euangelistes & apostles, ye & after y ^t of his other holy doctours & sayntes of euery age, & specyally, y ^e wytnesse of his hole [...]ere & gyue [...]redēce vnto them for a meane by god prou [...]ded, by whych man shold come to fayth for his saluacyō. Here ye ꝑcey [...] y ^t not onely in other places C of holy scripture / but also in y ^e self same place y ^t Tindale br [...]ng [...]h [...]th hym [...], wyllyng by hys false trāslatyng & false vnderstandynge, to make men w [...]ne that god taketh no ma [...]er wytnesse of man: it is clerely proued y ^t he neyther sayed nor [...] [...]aner / but that he receyued not hys [...] use he had greater recorde then [...] whyche hys father [...] of hys father hym [...] he receyued and accepted [...] the wytnesse of man also, [...]

[...] [Page cxc] whyche is the spyryte of trouth that [...] [...]eth of the father, A he shall bere wytnesse of me / and ye shall bere wytnesse also, bycause ye haue ben wyth me from the begynnynge.

And yet for bycause we sholde not by these wordes wene that he wolde haue no wytnesses of [...]enne, but those onely that were wyth hym in hys owne tyme whyle he lyued here on erth: god sayth by the mouth of saynt Iohn̄ the baptyste in the .iiii. chapyter of saynt Iohn̄ the euangelyste: he that cometh from heuyn is aboue all, and testyfyeth: the thynges that he hath seen and herde; and hys testymony [...] [...]e­ceyueth. who so euer do receyue hys [...]ecorde hath putte hys seale thereto that god is trew. And what is that to saye [...] but that euery trew byleuyng man is a wytnesse y ^• god is trew.

And thus appereth it not onely that Tindale hath mysse translated and mysse construed these wordes of Cryste, I B receyue no wytnesse of man, for the furnysshynge of hys he­resye, by whyche he wolde take awaye the creden [...]e of Cry­stes catholyke chyrche: but also ye se it proued by these wordes of saynt Iohn bapty [...]te, that euery trew byleuyng man that byleueth goddes worde, is a good wytnesse of god and hys worde / whyche clerely proueth that Crystes catholyke chyrche is a very specyall wytnesse. For onely in that chyrch is the nomber of trewe byleuynge me [...]/and all that are fallen owte of that catholyke knowen chyrche are very false byleuynge heretykes.

And also syth our sauyour sayth, my cheyse [...]ytnesse I take not of man / but yet I saye to you thys, that is to wy [...]e the wytnesse of the good holy man saynt Iohn, bycause ye sholde be saued: it appereth that Tyndale refusyng all wytnesse C of man, is lykely to be one of those that for [...] [...] nes [...]ue [...] shalbe saued.

Now all be it that I haue in thys [...] ­uycted Tyndale of ma [...] [...] by [...] ­uertynge the holy scrypture of god, as well in [...] as in the sentence, for the settynge for th [...] [...]ys yt [...] ­resye / takynge awaye the [...] gyue to the chyrche of god, and the [...] men are bounden [...] doeth all thys bycause [...] brynge men into the [...] myth as I se that Tyndale [...] py [...]et [...] and wolde we sh [...]l [...]e [...] [Page cxci] A handeled, I wyll a lytell stykke y ^• lenger therin / to thentent that I maye make you the better and the more clerely per­ceyue, that all that he sayth therin is eyther playne vntrew, or ellys suche parte as is trew proueth hys purpose false.

And for as mych as Tyndale is all in the worde of god / and wolde therby make vs wene that mēnys wordes sholde vtterly serue of nought, not so mych as for the wytnesse of goddys worde: ye shall vnderstande that where Tyndale sayth that the word of god clenseth mānys soule from false fayth, Io.v. ye be clene by reason of y ^e worde / yt is not trew that (as Tyndale wolde haue yt seme) the worde alone clenseth the soule from false fayth, no more then fayth alone as he wolde haue yt also seme, clenseth the soule fro synne. For bysyde the grace and goodnesse of god preuentyng mennys B wyll, wyth offerynge man by y ^e herynge of hys word a gra­cyouse occasyon of fayth / & bysyde mannys owne wyll workynge wyth grace towarde the captyuynge of hys vnder­standynge, towarde the bylyefe of goddes worde / & bysyde the grace, ayde, and helpe of god workynge wyth mannes wyll towarde that obedyence, wheruppon foloweth y ^e grace that accōplisheth and perfay [...]eth the full acte of belyuynge: bysydes all these I saye there helpeth towarde yt a nother thynge, wythout whych many a man sholde neuer haue cō ­men to yt / and that is bysyde the worde of god, the wonderfull workes of god in [...]oyage great and meruelouse myra­cles, wythout whyche in [...] a man sholde neuer haue byle­ued that he had ben god / as hym selfe testyfyeth in the .v. of saynt Iho [...], sayeng: The workes whyche my father hathe C geuen me to do: y ^• same workes whyche I do, they be wyt­nesse of me that my fathe [...] sent me.

wyll ye se that Cryste putteth not all in hys worde, but ioyneth hys worke the [...]yth. Here what he sayth in the .xv. chapyter of saynt Iohn̄. If I had not comen and spoken vnto them, they shold [...] synne / but now haue they nothynge to cloke theyr sy [...]ne wythall. He that hateth me ha­teth my father. Now though thys be in dede trew, that yf [...] had neuer comen and spoken to them, there coude not [...] ben layed vnto them the synne of that [...] [...] ere now [...] when they refused to byleue on [...] hated [...] to shewe that h [...]s onely [...] [Page cxcii] wroughte myracles amonge them for the profe of his word [...] A therfore he saith ferther, If I had not [...] workes among them whyche none other man dyd / they sholde be wythout synne. But now they haue seen and yet haue hated both me and my father.

Thus haue I clerely shewed you that where Tyndale wolde haue yt seme, that goddes worde alone alwaye clen­seth mennys soules from false fayth: he teacheth in that a false fayth / for the myracles many tymys helpe to the clen­synge of mennys soules.

And lette Tyndale stykke well to thys poynt / for I en­tende shortely to shew by this, that the miracles wrought in Crystes chyrche, clerely reproue all the false fayth that he & his mayster, & all theyr whole hondred sectes that are theyr ofsprynges preachen. B

But fyrst where Tyndale sayth that goddes worde ys trew / & layth therfore the .xvii. of saynt Ion̄: no man sayth nay to y ^•. And where he sayth forther, y ^• goddꝭ trewth dependeth not of mānys word: we wyll graute hym this, & mych more to then he loketh for. For I say ferther that the trouth of god dependeth not vppon goddes owne worde neyther / but is absolutely trew in yt self without any dependaūce vppon hys word at all. And as yt is trew that Tyndale sayth, that goddes trewth is not trew bycause man so sayth: so is this trew also, that goddes trewth is not trew bycause god so sayth. But on the tothe [...] syde lykewyse as this argument or cōsecucyon is trew, god sayth that who so byleue not his chyrch / is to be takē as a paynem, ergo that thyng is trew: so is thys consecucyon trew, Crystes chyrch [...]ayth y ^e who so C breke hys vow of chastyte synnet [...] dedely, & who so holdeth yt for lefull holdeth an heresye / e [...]go these two thy [...]ges be trew, and yet is neyther the [...]ye [...] of the chyrche the cause of the trewth of these two, nor the sayeng of Criste the cause of the trewth of the tother. But lykewyse as y [...] I [...] syt, yt must nedes be that he sytteth whyle I se hym syt / b [...]use I could not se hym sytte but yf he [...]atte in dede / & yet he syt­teth not bycause I se hym sythe, for [...] sholde though I saw hym not / [...] [Page cxciii] A vppon the trouth of hys dede. For though the worde of god can not be but trew, syth yf the thynge were not trew, god y ^• is the trewth wolde not saye yt: yet is the thynge trew that god speketh / not bycause it is trewly spokē, but bycause it is trewly done. For treuth was the thynge in yt selfe, & treuth yt sholde haue bene, all had yt neuer be spoken. And thys I saye is trewe, touchynge the wordes and proposycyons by whiche god any thynge telleth to his creatures by wrytyng or wythout / leste Tyndale make vs here some sophystyca­cyon, as though I spake of the great worde of god wherby all thynge is made, the sonne of god hym self one egal [...] god wyth hys father and theyr holy spiryte.

If Tyndale aske vs now wherof serueth then the treuth of goddes wordes: I saye that yt serueth to make knowen B or byleued amonge vs the treuth of goddes dede. For when god sayth, who so byleueth and is baptyzed and lyueth well after, or doth penaunce for his synne / shall for hys fayth & good workes be hyghly rewarded in heuen: though thys shall not be trew bycause god sayth yt, but bycause he wyll dot yt / nor he dothe yt not bycause he wyll saye yt, but he sayth yt bycause he wyll do it: yet hath he ordeyned that his worde shall be the way by whiche that trouth shalbe shewed vs / and that myracles ioyned vnto hys worde sholde make vs perceyue that yt is his worde, whereby wyth reason we muste nede [...] be bounden to byleue yt / and it beyng byleued, we [...]e by reason [...]unden to obey yt.

And this y [...] therfore the waye that god hath taken from the begy [...]nynge, that is to wyt he hath from the begynnyng C ioyned hys word with wōderfull workes; to make his word perceyued for hys awne.

Thus [...] he in eu [...]ry age before the comyng of Cryste. Thus dyd he in Cryste hym selfe, whose wordes he proued by hys wonderfull workes as hym selfe sayth in the .xv. of saint Iohn̄. Thus dyd [...]e also by his blessed apostles, whose doct [...]ne he [...] by [...]. And thus hath he done [...]. For likewyse as when he sent his owne sonne, [...] hym and hys doctryne decla­ [...] selfe suche as he was [...] god made hym do myra­ [...] [...] then euer any dyd amonge [...] [...] the sent his apostles & [...] that [Page cxciiii] Cryste dyd, the countrees to whome they were sent, wolde A haue went that they had lyed, and fayned suche fables them selfe: therfore Cryste caused them to do myracles in his na­me before the people / as god caused Moyses to do before Pharao. And when the world was turned to hym; and that apostles were not sent about: then was the chyrch of euery tyme, the apostle to suche as were bor [...]e and came in to y ^• worlde in theyr tyme / of whome suche as lyued and remay­ned after theyr tyme / were in theyr stede lefte for the apostle that sholde teche & preche to those other that sholde be borne in to the worlde in theyr tyme, and so forth from age to age. And for bycause that they whyche from tyme to tyme come in to thys worlde, new borne fyrste of theyr flesshely father and mother, and after of god and theyr mother holy chyrche by the water and the spyryte, sholde be sure that theyr sayde B mother the chyrche is Crystes apostle and techeth them the trewe doctryne, & neyther deceyueth them wyth false scryp­ture, as doth the congregacyon of turkes / nor with false tradycyons, as do the synagoges of iewes / nor wyth false ex­posycions as do the false chyrches of heretykes: he causeth hys chyrche to do myracles styll in euery age, and to be dys­cerned and knowen by the plentuouse workyng of goddys wonders by hym selfe wrought therin so many and so grete that no man can be ignoraunt the [...]f, but he that wyll ney­ther se nor here / or is so desperate and so sore set in an obsty­nate malyce that he wyll to the deuyll wyllyngly, by doyng now as the iewes dyd of olde, and as Tyndale now doth of new / ascrybynge the myracles wrought by the goodnes of god to be done in goddes chyrch by the power of the deuyll. C

And yet when Tyndale is so [...] to tell vs thus / he to [...]cheth nothyng thys poynte [...]hyche I layed agaynst hym in my dyaloge / that yf hys ly [...] were [...] in, then shold [...] folow that of so ma [...] false chyrche [...] [...]f false heretikes, [...] shold some suche myracles be wrought as well as [...]/syth yf that oure chyrche were a false chyrche, it [...] one of the many. And yf he wyll saye that [...] the greatest and the falseste, and therfore [...]alse [...] therin [...] [Page cxcv] A they stretche from heuyn to hell: they haue not yet amonge [...] all [...] myracle done greate nor small; neyther by god nor deuyll.

And thys I shew you for the order of the thynge, that ye maye perceyi [...]e that the trewth of god is [...]ustyfyed in it selfe, and dependeth not vppon hys worde, nor hys worde is not the cause of hys trewth: but by hys worde he sheweth hys trewth / and by his worde we byleue that he doeth it / and by hy [...] ap [...]es and euangelys [...]es we byleue that he sayed it / a [...] by the chyrche of euery age folowynge, we be taughte and byleue that the eu [...]ngely [...]es a [...]d the apostles preched and taught partely by wrytynge partely by worde wyth­out wrytynge, suche thynges as the catholyke chyrche of Cryste telleth vs to haue bene taughte by them. And by B the myracles done in the same catholyke chyrche, we know that the same chyrche is the [...]e [...]y chyrche of god / and that the doc [...]ne of the same chyrch is reueled and tought vnto yt by the spyryte of god / and that all other congregacyons [...]

[Page cxcvi]And therfore though yt be trew as in dede yt ys, that the A trew doctryne doth proue the trew myracles, and false doc­tryne proueth the false myracles / by which we be sure y ^• the Crysten myracles be trew, & y ^• paynyms myracles false: yet know we whyche ys that trewe doctryne, by the reason that the trew doctryne hath bene better proued and dayly ys bet­ter proued, by mo and greater then euer was the false doc­tryne or euer shall be to y ^• worldes ende. For as our sauyour saith hym selfe: If I had not come & wrought workes such as no man ellys had done / they had bene wythoute synne. And he promyseth that his preachers shall do the same, and yet greater / and so dyd hys apostles, and his dyscyples, and hys holy doctours, euer synnys in euery age.

And as for false myracles / the catholyke chyrch of Criste B as yt is taught by the spyryte of god, dyscerneth them well inough from the trew / and therfore yt dyscerneth and forbe deth the meruayles that appere in crystall stonys, and such other superstycyouse coniuracyons / and ys not moued any thynge to set by them, but condempne them though they be meruelouse / & hath the spyryte of god accordyng to Crystes promyse assystent, wherby yt bothe re [...]ecteth the supersty­cyouse meruayles, and worketh y ^• very faythfull myracles, for y ^• profe of the trew faythfull doctryne and y ^• trew marke and knowlege of Crystes very trew chyrche, syth none hath miracles but yt.

Now yf Tyndale wyll saye that the doctours of the ca­tholyque chyrche haue not done miracles for euery poynt of theyr doctryne: I say no more dyd the apostles them selfe, though Tyndale saye yes, whych he shall neuer proue. But C by theyr myracles they proued th [...]m self trew preachers and goddes trew messengers / and that thynge suffysed for the profe of theyr whole doctryne. And so god hath done mira­cles synnys for all hys sayntes in euery age / and that suffyseth to proue that theyr fayth was trew and the contrarye false.

And yf he saye farther that euery man in the catho­lyque chyrch doth not myracles, nor euery doctour neyther: to that I answere that of many men teachyng all one fayth, yt suffyseth yf any one of them do myracles. For when the Iewes were in desert / euery man that was of the well bele­uyng sort dyd not myracles / nor [...] also dyd no miracles but Moyses dyd, & god wrought [...]ōders among them self.

[Page cxcvii] A Nor when diuerse apostles went to gether / euery one of them dyd not alwaye a myracle by hym selfe. But syth they were all of one fayth: it suffysed for the profe of the techyng of them all, that any one of them dyd.

If he wyll saye that sometyme the doctours whyche we call holy sayntes, haue not all agreed in one / but some one hath sometyme thought in some one thyng otherwyse then other haue done: I saye that thys his sayenge is nothynge to purpose. For god doth reuele hys trouthes not alwayes in one manner / but sometyme he sheweth yt out at onys, as he wyll haue yt knowen and men bounden forthwyth to byleue yt / as he shewed Moyses what he wolde haue Pharao do. Sometyme he sheweth yt leysourly, suffryng his flokke to comen & dyspute theruppon / and in theyr treatynge of B the mater, suffreth them wyth good mynde & scrypture and naturall wisedome, with inuocacyon of his spirituall helpe, to serche and seke for the treuth, and to vary for the whyle in theyr opynyons, tyll that he rewarde theyr vertuouse dylygence wyth ledyng them secretely in to the consent and cō corde and bylyef of the trouth by his holy spirite qui facit vnani mes in domo, whyche maketh his flokke of one mynde in hys house, that is to wyt his chyrche. So y ^t in the meane whyle the varyaunce is wythoute synne, and maketh nothyng a­gaynst the credence of the chyrch / excepte Tyndale wyll say that he wyll neyther byleue saynt Peter nor saynt Paule in any thynge that they teache / bycause that ones they varyed in the manner of theyr doctryne as appereth. But he shall neuer fynde that any of the holy doctours helde obstynatly, C the contrarye of that thynge whyche the hole catholyque chyrch had in his tyme determyned for an artycle of y ^e fayth. For I dare surely saye that yf any so had done / he had repē ted and chaunged are god dyd any miracle for hym eyther quykke or dede.

And therfore as tou [...]hynge Tyndale and Luther & frere [...]usken: this obte [...]cyon wyll not excuse theyr obstynate he­resyes, holden so [...] styffely agaynste all the olde holy sayntes, whyle they saye now that freres maye well wedde nonnes / but yf they repent, and leue theyr heresyes, and do penaūs, and teache trouth / for by such meanes they may yet be fayntes to, and so I [...] god make them.

Now yf Tyndale wyll yet forther saye, that the chyrche yt selfe haue not [...] in euery age vtterly byleued a lyke / [Page cxcviii] but that the chyrch in some age hath byleued otherwise then A it hath in some other: I say that this can also nothyng serue his purpose. For what so euer Tyndale sye: neuer shall he proue the contrarye, but that god is at hys lyberte styll and euer styll shalbe, to teache hys trouthes more and more, as his pleasure shall be to haue thē known, and to gouerne his chyrche to hys pleasure in dyuerse ages after dyuerse ma­ners, such as hym self lyste for to dyuyse / wherof his chyrch is by theyr hole consent sure. For ellys shall the spyryte of god assystent euer with them by goddes promyse, & ledynge them in to all trouth: neuer suffer his hole catholyke chyrch to consente thereto.

And yf Tyndale saye the contrarye of this / he muste also saye that Cryste hath broken hys promyse / and he muste also tell vs, y ^t we be styll bounden yet vnto thys day [...], & euer B shalbe bounden styll, to the law made by god and hys holy apostles at Hierusalē, whyche they made & sent out in wry­tynge / where they forbode fornycacyon and eatyng y ^• meate offred vp to idoles, & all meate of bestes suffocate or stran­gled, and the eatyng of any bestes blood. whyche ordynaūs yf yt now stande, and that we muste now byleue that yt ys not now lawfull to do any of those thynges there forboden (as we muste in dede yf god were not for all that at his libertye styll in the gouernaunce and teachynge of his chyrche, what he wyll haue byleued and what he will haue done) thē is quyte gone a good pece of theyr plesaunt preachynge of theyr euangelycall lyberty. For then where as they preache that every man is at lybertye to eate what he lyste / they leue no man at lybertye to eate a pore [...]uddynge. C

But hys chyrch is sure inough / by that they knowe well that theyr hole assent is not wrought wythout the spyryte of god assystent in hys chyrche. And that them selfe be hys very chyrche they be sure inough / by that they se hym specyally present wyth them by hys contynuall myracles, whych fayle in all false chyrches y ^• be fallen out of thys. All whych false chyrches thys trewe chyrche of cheryte Crystes proper badge / ceaceth not to sollycyte and labour to reuoke and re­ceyue agayne into the porte of saluacyon and the hauen of heuen: excepte the deuyll by theyr ded [...]ly malyce, drowne them vtterly wyth dreuynge them downe into the dep [...]he of indurate harte, thorowly perced with they [...] pestylēt heresye.

And yet I say ferther, that thys obiection of dyuerse a [...] ­tycles [Page cxcix] A byleued by the chyrch in diuerse tymes wyll not serue the heretykes for theyr defence / syth that they teche suche thynges for trew, as not onely all the holy doctours and all the holy sayntes of euery tyme, but also all the hole chyrche of euery tyme, haue euer taughte to be false. Or ellys they muste shewe vs some one man at the leste wyse that in thys fyftene hundred yere before theyr dayes, hath holden for good and lyefull, that such persons as haue vowed chastyte to god, may [...] ronne out of relygyon and wedde harlottes at theyr lybertye.

Now yf Tyndale wyll take holde of that y ^• I haue sayd / that god is at hys lybertye to reuele a thynge when he wyll / and that he hath now reueled thys new artycle to hym and hys holy felowes: they must I say then proue vs by myra­cles B that they be goddes trewe messengers / for ellys why sholde we byleue them.

If he say that they proue it by scrypture, in that they preche hys worde: I saye agayne the scrypture I knowe for goddys worde, but them I knowe not for goddys messen­gers, bycause they wyll not he aknowen of all goddys wor­des / for they wyll byleue no word of hys wythout wrytyng / and also his wordes wryten they mysconstrue. And therfore concernyng the worde of god wryten: the questyon lyeth bytwene vs, not vppon goddys worde but vppon the ryght vnderstandynge therof, wherin whyle all the olde holy doc­tours be quyte agaynste them, we say now to Tyndale that of reason we maye not byleue hym. For in these poyntes wherin we vary / as for ensample that freres maye wedde C nonnes: eyther y ^e scrypture is playne and easy to perceyue, or dowtuouse and harde to vnderstande. If it be playne & easy: we can not thynke but that amonge so many of y ^• old, holy, wyse, and well lerned doctours / some one at the leste in all thys longe whyle sholde haue ben as able to perceyue it as Luther and he now so sodeynly. And on the tothersyde yf he saye that in that poynte the scrypture is darke & hard: then maye we wyth reason thynke that Luther and he and frere Huskyn to, maye as well mysse vnderstande it now, as all those holy wyse well lerned sayntes all thys fyftene hundred yere. So that yet agayne we be come to the poynt, that Tyndale yf in hys doctryne dependynge vppon thexpo­sycyon of scrypture he loke to be byleued, that freres maye wedde nonnes, agaynst the doctryne of all those olde holy [Page cc] doctours that in theyr exposycyons calle it abomynable le­chery: A he muste nedys do myracles as they dyd, or els must Luther or frere Huskyn or some one of theyr felowes at the leste.

For where he sayth in one place of hys boke agaynst me, that we maye requyre no myracles of them: yf he had sayd, bycause they can none do, I wold haue taken it for a fynall answere, and wolde haue troubled hym no more wyth that troubelouse questyon. But now bycause he sayth it nedeth not / and wolde it sholde seme that y ^e myracles which Cryste and hys apostles dyd, sholde serue for the profe of hys doc­tryne: my conscyence can not suffer me to let hym go so.

For syth our questyon is not vppon Crystes & hys apo­stles wordes, whyche theyr myracles proued trewe / but vp­pon the exposycyon and vnderstandynge that Tyndale and B Luther gyueth to them / whyche exposycyons all they that god hath euer hath synnes the apostles dayes hytherto by myracles proued to be hys trewe prechers, haue playnely taught to be false: Tyndale maye not saye for shame, but y ^t for hys doctryne taughte by those exposycyons, yf he wyll be byleued agaynst many prechers proued trewe by many myracles, he must do myracles to / or ellys yf we byleue hym before all them, we be mych more then madde specyally but yf some of hys cōpany and felowes in hys heresye dyd some myracles for hym, whyche our lorde be thanked he suffereth no false chyrche of heretykes to do, but hys owne catholyke chyrche alone.

And now in suche thynges as god seeth moste nede, and the heretykes moste busy to assaute hys chyrche: there doth C he moste specyally fence in hys chyrche wyth myracles. As in the reuerence of ymages, relykes, and pylgrymages, and worshyppynge of sayntes, and hys holy sacramentes, and moste of all that holy sacrament of the auter hys owne bles­sed body, for whych maner of thynges he hath wrought and dayly doth many wonderfull miracles / and the lyke of those that he wrought in the tyme of hys apostles, to shewe and make profe that hys catholyke chyrche is hys perpetuall apostle, how many nacions so euer fall therfro, and how ly­tell and small so euer it be lefte.

And therfore we saye not as Tyndale bereth vs in hand, that the trouth of god dependeth vppon the multytude of mennys mowthes: but that the catholyque chyrche illu­strate [Page cci] A wyth the myracles of god, and taughte by the spyryt of god / is set vppon the hygh mountayne of the stone that is Cryste / and therfore can neuer be hyd, but that the myra­cles whyche god euer worketh and euer shall worke therin, doeth and shall make the lyghte of the doctryne shyne and shewe the ryght waye to heuen.

And these myracles hath god often wrought to the con­uersyon and amendement of iewys and heretykes / & often to the confusyon and burnynge vppe of obstynate iewes & heretykes, wyth the begynnynge of theyr hell euyn here in erthe.

Now Tyndale denyeth not but that there be and haue ben suche myracles / but he sayeth that they be done by the deuyll. But then saye I that in hys so sayenge he is worse B then euer was the deuyll. For the deuyll durste neuer say so myche hym selfe, as dyd the iewes and nowe Tyndale saye.

But when he sayth it / I saye yet agayne he must shewe me why there be no myracles amonge all hys false chyrches of heretykes / or ellys to calle the trew myracles of god done in the catholyke chyrche of god false illusyons of the deuyll, is a worde well able alone to proue hym selfe a deuyll.

Now yf Tyndale wyll saye that the turkes haue myra­cles amonge them as well as our chyrche: I maye denye it hym by his owne rule, but if he proue it by playne scripture. But now yf I graūte it hym, yet shall it not serue hym. For I may proue hym by playne scrypture that there be neyther none suche, nor so many done amonge them as these be that be dayly done in Crystes catholike chyrch. For our sauyour C sayth y ^t hys owne myracles passed all that had ben before / & that yet hys apostles and dyscyples and hys faythfull byle­uynge folke, Io [...]. 14 shold do as greate and greater. And we se that in the catholyke chyrche god hath done and dayly doeth for hys sayntes, bothe whyle they were here and after theyr de­partynge hense / and hath also done and dayly doeth at dy­uerse ymages and pylgrymages, as greate myracles in confyrmacyon of our fayth in that behalfe, as euer he dyd in the tyme of the apostles. And therfore am I very sure that ney­ther paynyms nor turkes be able to matche our chyrche in myracles / but that ours as farre passe all theyrs yf they ha­ue any, as euer the myracles of Moyses passed the wyche­crafte of the egypcyan iuglers. And of thys am I as sure / as that y ^e false chyrches of heretykes do no myracles at all.

[Page ccii]Forther more as for miracles or meruayles done among A the Turkes or Saracenis, syth Tyndale is not yet as farre as I know cyrcūcysed, nor professyth not hym self a Sara­cene, nor I know hym not very surely for a Turke but for an heretyque: I shall not greatly nede to dispute with hym vppon myracles done amonge the Machometanys / but (whyche were as good as to do that he doth) let hym go cyrcumcyse hym self, and then come agayne and speke for Machomete and his men, and I shall answere hym forther for theyr miracles. But in the meane tyme whyle I know hym but for an heretyke: yt is inough to tell hym that among all y ^e false chyrches of fals heretikes there be no miracles at all. But god worketh hys miracles in his trew chyrch, to shew his trew chyrche, that is to wyt his trew apostle. And then his trew preacher knowen / that is suffycient for all his preachynge, B and to proue that he doth teache & expoune the scri­pture after the ryght vnderstyng tought and inspired by the spiryte of god, sent to dwell wyth his chyrche for euer, accordynge to Crystes promyse / and therfore shall not nede n [...] partyculare miracles vppon artycle, for Cryste vsed not that hym selfe.

And thus in this myne answere to his one chapiter, which he so gayly florysshed, that he had went the glyteryng ther­of wold haue made euery mannys yies so adased, y ^t no man sholde haue spyed his falshed and founden oute the trouth: I haue is suche wyse confounded hym and all his hole do­ctryne vtterly / that yf I neuer wold wryte one worde more, yet sholde he neuer agaynst this alone defende his deuelysh doctryne whyle he lyueth, and take all the deuyls in hell to C helpe hym.

Tyndale.

But dyd not the apostles teache [...]ght by mouth that they wrote not. I an­swere, because that many taught one thynge, and euery man the same in dy­uerse places and vnto dyuerse people, and confyrned euery sermon wyth a sondrye miracle: therfore Cryste and his apostles preched an hunderd thousande sermons, and dyd as many myracles / whyche hadde ben superfluouse to haue bene all wryten.

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Now consyder good reader that Tyndales purpose is, to proue vs that the apostles wrote all that was of necessyte B to be done or to be byleued. And remember that as yet he doth but tell vs that they dyd so, and proueth it not yet / but he wyll anon full worshyppefully. But in the meane waye marke me this fyrste, that he sayth that Cryste and his apo­stles dyd cōfyrme euery sermone with a sondry miracle. For tyll he proue me that by scrypture / I denye yt playnely. For syth neyther scrypture teacheth yt, nor the catholyke chyrch preacheth yt, nor any reason proueth yt: I maye well and boldely denye yt, and so I do.

For I se well his falsed for whych he fayneth yt. He seeth miracles wrought by god plentuousely in hys chyrche, and that thereby his chyrche and the fayth therof is confermed / and therfore to brynge at the lestewyse some parte therof in questyon, he wold saye that we fynde not specyall miracles C done for euery poynte. But I say no more dyd the apostles neyther, nor Tyndale shall neuer proue yt. For yf he wyll proue me that / he muste proue me trew, not onely the thyng that hym selfe sayth, whych is more then euer he shall proue trew / that is to wyt that they proued euery sermon wyth a sondry miracle / but also that eyther they neuer preched but one artycle in one sermone. Or yf they preached many / he muste then proue me two thynges / one, that they cōfyrmed that sermon wyth as many miracles as they preached poyntes / a nother that they shewed the people that the miracles whyche they then dyd, was so many miracles for so many poyntes / for ellys myght all those myracles be done for the profe of one of those poyntes, and all the remanaunt vnproued. [Page ccv] A For yf Tyndale wyll say that thinge neded not for as mych as any one miracle suffysed to proue them all, syth yt proued hym a trew preacher: then shall Tyndale say [...]o the thynge that I wolde haue hym saye / for then hym selfe proueth that it neded not that they sholde proue euery sermone wyth a seuerall myracle made amonge one people / nor peraduenture any one sermone neyther otherwyse then as by miracles shewed at other occasions bysyde theyr sermons, they proued them selfe holy men and goddes messengers. For we fynde many miracles done by them at suche tymes as they were not makynge of sermons. And yet when they dyd them in Crystes name / we finde not alway that they added a specyall artycle of oure faith, whyche specyaltye they wolde haue by that miracle confermed.

B And thus ye se that h [...]re he affermeth one thinge that he shall neuer proue / whych thynge yet I wolde not vouche safe to speke of, sauynge that he doth it of an euill purpose. For hys mayster Martyne Luther when Erasmus layed agaynste hym for mannys fre wyll the doctry [...]e of the olde holy saynts, whose fayth was approued by miracles: layed agaynst hym agayne, that though they dyd myracles, Erasmus yet coulde not proue y ^t any of them dyd a myracle spe­cyally for that artycle and therfore he wolde haue that artycle seme vnproued as for any myracle. And this way taketh Tyndale now for the selfe same [...]t [...]nt / & therfore fayneth that the apostles confermed euery sermone wyth a sondrye myracle. But I dowte not but that yf we sholde bydde Tyndale here or Luther hym selfe, proue vs euery artycle of his C fayth whych he wolde we sholde wene were y ^e fayth that the apostles preached / yf we sholde I say dyd them proue vs, y ^t the apo [...]les conf [...]med euery artycle therof by a sondry my­racle: they shold seeke in scrypture tyll theyr eyen were [...] ete they [...]de it.

More [...]er Tyndales wordes fyghte to gether, and one [...] can not agre wyth an other. For yf these wordes [...] trew that they preued euery sermon with a sondry myracle / [...] false that he sayth here also, that is to wyt of [...]racles, [...] be wryten as nedeth.

[...] that Tyndale say [...]h, that thapo [...]le [...] [...] [...] [Page ccvi] miracle: yt foloweth that euery necessary poynte that they A preached, they dyd proue by miracle. Then ferther yf euery necessary poynte that they preached they preued by mi­racle, bycause yt was nedefull y ^t yt sholde be, for credence to be geuen to that point for our soules helth: it was nedefull then for the cōseruacion of the same credence, yf the credēce coulde not be kepte wythout wrytynge, that of euery suche necessary poynt of fayth and necessarye doctryne of theyrs, wythout whych byleued we canne not be saued / there were one miracle wryten at the leste. But there ys not of euery suche artycle one miracle wrytyn: ergo yt is not trewe that Tyndale goth aboute to proue, that the miracles as many be wryten as nede / and that euery necessary thynge is wry­ten. And veryly yf euery thynge that we sholde necessaryly byleue, had ben thentent of god to haue it put in wrytynge / B and that yt hadde ben also necessary that euery poynt were preued by one miracle / and not suffycyent that the prechers were proued by miracles them selfe, & therby their doctrine to be byleued: yt were very probable then, both that y ^e wryters wolde haue wryten some thinges mych more open and playne thē they [...]aue done / and also that of euery necessary poynte of fayth, they wolde haue wryten one miracle at the leste. But now syth god entended not to gyue his new lawe by bokes, but specyally by the necessary poyntes therof wryten in mennys hartes / wherof hym selfe wolde be the specy­all inwarde mayster: he hath prouyded y ^t scrypture to serue for parte, but not to serue alone for all. And syth suche my­racles as be wryten therin, suffyse to proue y ^e apostles god­des trew preachers / and therfore neded not myracles to be C wryten [...]for euery poynte of theyr preachynge: no more ne­ded there to be myracles done for euery poynt of theyr prea [...]ge.

And for farther profe therof / hew many thynges, prea­c [...]ed the apostles by theyr pystles, wyth whyche we rede not that they sente by the messengere for euery poynte a myracle.

And thus good readers here ye se fyrste that thys poyn [...] of Tyndales preachynge muste be better proued / whyche poynt thus reproued, answereth and reproueth clerely dy­ [...] other places of hys boke hereafter. But yet is i [...] [...] [...]o [...]e consydered & wayed in hys wordes y ^t he sayth, [...]substau [...]ce in generall of euerythynge [...]ssary to [...] [Page ccvii] A soules hesth, both of what we ought to byleue, and what we ought to do / [...] wryten. So that what so euer we ought to byleue or do, that same is wryten expressely / or drawen of that whyche is wryten.

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In these wordes though I fynde lakke of trouth / yet I sumwhat alow hys wyt / as our sauyour sayed by y ^e wykked bayly, Lucae. 15 whyche though he played the false shrewe for hys mayster / prouyded yet wylyly sumwhat for hym selfe. And so playeth Tyndale here. For now that he playnely percey­ueth that the doctryne is playnely false, whyche hys may­ster Luther & hym selfe to, haue taught so playnely bytwen them all thys whyle / that is to wyt that there is no necessa­ry trouth to be byleued, but yf it be proued by playne & euy­dent scrypture: now cometh Tyndale and seeth that they B shall be put to flyghte and fayne to runne awaye / and ther­fore wylyly prouydeth a startynge hole, steppynge from playne and euydent scrypture theyr old specyall playne euydent wordes, vnto darke debatable termes of generall pyth and substaunce, and of drawynge out and deducynges and dependynge vppon scrypture / vppon euery whyche worde he maye make an argument when it cometh to the poynte.

But yet yf he wolde honestly stande to hys taclynge in thys poynt, and gyue vs y ^e lyke lybertye that hym selfe wyll take / and neyther vse false deduccyons of hys owne, nor re­fu [...]e our deduccyons yf we deduce them well: we wolde ne­uer fynde faute in thys poynte. But now let vs deduce a thyng neuer so strayght, it can not be alowed. Let hym selfe drawe it neuer so farre a wry / yet wyll he swere y ^t it is ryght C inough. I shall gyue you for the more clerenesse one ensample of eyther syde. Matthei 2 [...] we saye that syth our sauyour hath hym selfe promysed in the gospell, that hym selfe and hys holy spyryte shall be wyth his chyrche all dayes vnto the ende of the worlde: yt foloweth say we therof, that hys chyrch shall neuer fayle as longe as [...]he worlde lasteth. Iohn̄. 16 And bycause our sauyour sayth in lyke [...]e, that hys holy spyryte euer aby­dynge wyth hys chyrche, shall teche his chyrch all thynges, and lede them into euery trouth, and put them in remem­bra [...]e of all that he hym selfe had or wolde say vnto them: we deduce theruppon y ^t he wyll not suffer hys chyrche fall in to the erronyouse bylefe of any dampnable vntrouth / but lede them into the t [...]outh y ^t is the cōtrary of that vntrouth. And syth [...] the holy g [...] shall wryte vnto you [Page ccviii] all thynges, nor shall wryte you all trouth / but shall lede A you into all trouth: we deduce theruppon that the bylefe where into y ^e spiryte of god ledeth vs and planteth it in our harte, is as good and as sure to saluacyon of oure soules wythout any wrytynge at all, as yf it were wryten in parchement wyth golden letters and Crystes owne hande.

Here haue I shewed you a sample of oure deduccyons / whyche I truste euery man may se that we draw it not farre of, but that the scrypture well and clerely maynteneth oure deducynge therof. And the sample also that I shew you ser­ueth mych for our mater agaynst Tyndale, that contendeth and laboreth to proue that we be bounde to byleue nothyng but goddys promyses / and here he seeth that god promysed not to put all thynge in wrytynge, but that the holy gooste sholde teche vs by ledynge vs into euery trouth. B

Now shall I shewe you a sample of Tyndales deduc­cyon vppon scrypture, whyche as god wolde he bryngeth forth hym selfe in thys same present chapyter, to the entent that ye sholde not lakke a shew / wherby ye shall se how playnely he proueth hys holy doctryne by the holy scrypture.

The scrypture sayeth, loue thy neyghbour as thy selfe. Now vppon this texte deduceth Tyndale, that women may crysten and consecrate the body of Cryste and saye masse to. How other men wyll alowe thys deduccyon I can not tell. But lest they that lyke it not, myghte happe to wene that he sayth it not: I shall reherse you hys owne very wordes.

Tyndale.

They wyll happely demaunde where yt is wryten that womē sholde baptyse. Veryly in this commaundement, loue thy neyghbour as thyselfe / yt is wryten C that they may and ought to mynistre not onely baptisme, but all other sacramentes also in tyme of nede, yf they be so necessarye as they preache them.

More.

Lo syr here ye se that yf the masse be so necessary as the chyrche techeth / whyche sayth and hath ordeyned that it is necessary to be sayd vnto the parysshe at the le [...]e wyse euery sondaye: yf the preste be not at home, then some good wyfe maye for a nede steppe to the awter and saye masse in hys stede / bycause the scrypture sayth, l [...]ue thy neyghbour as thy selfe.

what is there that these folke maye not proue by sc [...]p­ture / yf they may deduce it thus and haue theyr deduccy [...] alowed. Or a made as good deduccyon as thys, and y [...] [Page ccix] A no thanke. For he thoughte that bycause of the commaun­dement, 1. Parasip. 13. thou shalt honour thy lorde god / he myghte & was bounden to set hys hande vnto stayeng and kepynge vp of the arche of the testament that was aboute to fall. But god taughte other men by that mannys sodayne deth / that he was to malapert to medle wyth y ^t kynde of goddys honour that was not mete for hym. And Tindale bycause a woman muste loue her neyghboure as her selfe: wyll haue her not touche the arche but the blessed bodye of god, and bodely cō secrate yt her self / which neyther the blessed mother of Crist, nor y ^e hyghest angell in heuen, durste euer psume to thynke, bycause god had not appoynted them to that offyce. Suche deduccyons vppon scrypture made they of lykelyhed that toke vppon them in the old testamēt more then theyr parte B cam to / as Chore and Abyron, and the kynge Ozias, Numeri. 16. 2. Parasip. 2 [...]. that wolde nedes playe the preste and encence god hym selfe / for whyche honorable seruyce [...] our lorde sent hym shame and sorow.

Now yf Tyndale aske me why a woman maye crysten & not cōsecrate syth both be sacramētes: I can answere hym the comen answere, that though both be necessarye / yet both be not lyke great nor lyke necessarye. For both is there greater reuerence to be had to the sacramēt of Cristes body, then to the sacrament of baptysme, and yet is baptysme of more necessyte then the tother, syth that [...]or faute of baptysme saluacyon fayleth and not forfaute of housell. But as for my parte I wold geue hym none answer to that question, other then the ordynaunce of goddes spyryte / whyche I se y ^t god C hath taught his chyrche, and ellys wolde he not suffer them to byleue that yt were well done, wherof no man is boundē to geue a precyse cause. But yt were ouer mych boldenes to thynke that we coulde precysely tell y ^t cause of euery thynge that yt pleaseth god to deuyse / though Tyndale and his spirituall sort will not oba [...] goddes byddyng, tyll them self as he sayth haue enserched & founden the very full cause why.

It is to me for all Tyndales deduccyon a greater que [...]yon yet, sauyng for the custume of Cristes catholyke chyrch why a woman may crysten, then why she may not cōsecrate. For surely syth god sent out onely men to baptyse: I wolde set no woman thereto for any nede, no more then to be a confessour, and [...]oyle men of theyr synnys for ned [...]/sauynge y ^t I se y ^e [...]one euer [...] where in Cristes ho [...]e chyrche, [Page ccx] and the consent of holy sayntes approuynge and allowyng A the same. And in consecratynge neuer woman dyd yt / nor good man byleued that any woman myghte do yt. whyche bylyef yf yt were false: I doute not but the spiryte of god techynge his chyrche, wolde ere this haue led his chyrche into the contrarye trewth accordynge to Crystes promyse.

But now as I say ye se by Tyndales ensample, for what entent and purpose he putteth in his deducynge & drawyng of articles of the fayth out of the scrypture / wherein he may as well byleue what he wyll and take what he lyste, not of y ^• tradycyon of Crystes catholyque chyrche, but of the trady­cyon of Martyne Luthers lemman / as frame hym selfe a fayth by a deduccion of scripture deduced in such a fashion.

In the same manner he draweth out of scrypture in hys boke of obedyence, and in thys boke also, that a frere may B marye a nonne by the authoryte of saynt Poule. For beyng asked where he fyndeth yt in scrypture / he sayth yt is wry­ten in these wordes to Timothe, 1. Timoth. 3 a byshoppe muste be vnreprouable and the husbande of one wyfe. And in the wordes of saynte Poule, 1. Timoth. 4. there shall come false prophetes that shall forbede maryage. And in this texte also, 1. Corinth. 7. yt is better to may then to burne.

Is not this conclusyon trow ye well deduced? In y ^e fyrst bycause saynte Poule dyd putte in this word one, to forbyd and exclude any mo then one: Tyndale deduceth that a bysshoppe muste nedes haue one / and thereby maketh saynte Poule false in a nother place, where he counsayleth & wys­shyth that he sholde rather haue none.

In the seconde texte bycause saynt Poule condēneth thē C that wolde saye, yt were not lawfull for any man to mary: Tyndale deduceth that euery maye mary, though hym self haue made vnto god a contrary promyse byfore / & myght as well deduce y ^t no man maye be forbode to mary, though he haue a wyfe all redy. For the fr [...]re is as well and as clerely forboden to mary by the scryptures, that forbedeth hym the breche of his vowe: as is the man forbodē to mary that hath a wyfe all redye.

And vppon the thyrde texte, bycause saynt Poule sayth that yt is better to mary thē to burne: Tyndale deduceth y ^t it is better for a frere to marye, then to forbere lechery / & cō ­sydereth not that when he breketh his vow and weddeth an harlot, then he burneth both bodye and soule, fyrste hete in [Page ccxi] A fyre of foule fylthy luste, and after thys worlde in euerlas­tynge fyre of hell. Is not thys conclusyon worshypfully deduced vppon scrypture? It is meruayle that he deduceth it not rather vppon y ^e texte that he speketh of here: Loue thy neyghbour as thy selfe / and vppon thys texte also: Do to a­nother as thou woldest be done to thy selfe. These haue yet some better colour for Luther and hys lēman / and I doute not but he wyll fynde them at laste, and saye that hys ma­ryage is grounded there, bycause he loueth her wyth suche a lewde lousy loue, as the lewde lousy louer in lechery lo­ueth hym selfe / and is so ryghtuousely dysposed, y ^t he wyll neuer desyre that she shall lye wyth hym, but whē he is euen as well content that hym selfe shall lye wyth her. Thys that we saye now in sporte / he wyll saye ones in erneste I war­raunt B you.

Now for the declaracyon of hys purpose, in drawynge & deducynge of thartycle of theyr faythlesse fayth out of scrypture of god, these ensamples suffyse / and therfore I shall procede farther.

Now nexte he cōmeth to the purpose, to proue you that euery necessary thyng that we be bounden eyther to byleue or to do [...] is wryten in scrypture. And now harke I praye you how properly the good man proueth it. These are hys wordes.

Tyndale.

For yf that I were bounden to do or byleue vnder payne of losse of my soule, any thy [...]ge that were not wryten nor depended of that whyche is wryten: what [...]olpe me the scrypture that is wryt [...]n.

C More.

Lo here is hys fyrste argumēt that he setteth forth in the fore fronte of the feld, as a specyall stronge bande. whyche argument who so w [...]ll aduy [...]e and consyder: yf hym selfe haue wyt, shall playnely saye that it commeth out of a mad mann [...]s mouth.

For by thys [...]afon tyll the gospellys were wryten, euery man myght [...] haue refused all the doctryne of Cryst in euery poy [...]t that was not wrytē in y ^e scrypture before his day, nor drawen out therof by a lytell streyghter lyne then Luther draweth his. And when Cryste taught them the counsayle of virgi [...]t [...] and [...]any other holes [...] thynges aboue the perfeccyon of theyr olde lawe: they myght haue sayd; shew me t [...]ys in wrytyng. And then yf he had answered that hym [Page ccxii] selfe beynge suche as he was, and for suche testyfyed by wry­tyng, A and by the worde of hys father, and by hys owne wonderouse workes, owed to be byleued of them in euery thyng vppon payne of the losse of theyr soules: they myghte haue sayed agayn as Tyndale sayth now / yf we be boūden vppō the payne of losse of our soules to beleue any thynge that is not wryten nor dependeth of that whyche is wryten, what holpe vs the scrypture that is wryten? Thys tale of Tyn­dales myghte they haue tolde vnto Cryst hym self, agaynst the sacrament of baptysme & the sacrament of the awter to.

1. Corinth. 11.Now when saynt Poule in his pystle to the Corynthyes sayed, I wyll order the remanaunt when I come my selfe: they sholde by Tyndales reason haue sent hym hys pystle agayne and saye / If we shall be bounden to do any thynge vnwryten, what auayleth vs all that euer thou wrytest? B

But there nedeth no places of scrypture to thys blasphemouse foly of Tindale spoken agaynst y ^e scripture / bycause god hath taught & left some parte of hys pleasure wythout scrypture. For yf a man wryte certayne rules to hys hows­holde seruaūtes, and yet gyue them certayne besyde by his owne mouth, such as peraduenture shold nede no warnyng in wrytynge, bycause the cōtynuall vse and excer [...]yse of thē coude not suffer them to b [...] forgotten (in whych kynde of cō maundementes be the blessed sacramentes so dayly vsed in Crystes chyrch, that forgoten they can not be, nor lefte they shall not be for all the besynesse that these heretykes the de­uyls doctours can make) yf thys lordes seruauntes were so wyse to lerne thys lesson of Tyndale and saye, naye syr and ye leue these thynges vnwryten then a strawe for all that ye C haue wryten: myghte not the mayster saye that hys menne were a sorte of malaperte folysshe knauys. And thys is as ye se Tyndales fyrst reason, wherwyth he full properly proueth vs that the apostles wrote al [...] togyther that euer we sholde be bounden to byleue. whyche reason ye se your selfe is not worth one [...]ysshe / but r [...]her a playne [...]nreasonable blasphemy, folysshely spoken agaynst the [...]criptu [...] of god / whych he sayth serueth for nought yf god byn [...] vs to by­leue any worde of hys bysy [...]e.

Now let vs procede to the seconde / why [...] is I promyse you very seconde, fo [...] any frute that ye shall fyn [...] therin. These are hys worde [...].

A Tyndale.

In as mych as Cryste and all his apostles warned vs, that false prophetes shold come with false myracles, euen to deceyue the electes yf it were possible: wherwyth sholde the trew precher confoūde the false, excepte he brought trew myracles to confounde the false, or ellys autentique scrypture of full authoryte all redy amonge the people.

More.

Grete cause haue we to gyue thanke to god / whose good­nesse wresteth the tonges of heretyques and maketh them there speke most agaynst thē selfe, where they wene to speke for them selfe the beste, as he serueth Tyndale here. For these be the wordes that I wolde haue wysshed hym to say. For where he meaneth that all must be wryten bycause that ellys there were nothynge that coude confounde false pro­phetes B that sholde come and shewe false myracles, excepte the trewe prechers sholde shewe trewe myracles agaynste them: I answere to Tyndale two thynges. The fyrste is that it is playne false that Tyndale taketh for a playne truth / that is to wyt that the trewe prechers coude haue no thynge to confounde the false prophetes that sholde come wyth false myracles, but yf all the trouth were wryten in scrypture autentyque amonge the people. And that yf it so were / then the trewe precheours had inough wythout trew myracles to confounde the false prophetes bryngynge false myracles. The seconde thynge that I answere hym wyth is thys / that yf it were trewe that he sayeth, that wythout myracles nothynge wolde suffycyently serue in suche case, excepte that euery necessary thynge were wryten in auten,+tyque C scrypture: yet syth hym selfe confesseth that trewe myracles myghte in suche case suffycyently serue the trewe precheour, and confounde the false, and saue the fayth vp ryghte / and that he can not saye but that god is able to do them when so euer he lyste, and wyll neuer leue hys chyr­che destytute of helpe and comforte necessary, and therfore in suche necessyte wyll not fayle to do them: Tyndale must nedes agre (be he neuer so lothe to comme to it) that god hath no necessyte for auoydynge of suche parell, to prouy­de that hys chyrche sholde haue euery necessary thynge delyuered vnto them, and euer more kepte wyth them in autentyke scrypture / whyle hym selfe by hys promyse wol­de euer dwelle wyth them, and hadde for the profe of theyr fayth agaynste false prophetes and theyr false myracles, [Page ccxiiii] the myghtye meane of trew myracles, and oute of measure A greter in his owne hande. whyche meane of miracles for y ^e trew profe of his worde among mortall menne / is and hath bene and euer shall be, the fynall peremptorye stoppe a­gaynste all contradyccyon.

This secunde answere is open and playne inough in yt selfe. And for as mych as the fyrste appereth not peraduen­ture so fully playne at the fyrste syght / I shall make yt cle­rer. when Tyndale sayth that excepte all were wryten that we be bounden to byleue or to do, there were ellys nothyng saue miracles to confoūde false prophetes that sholde come with false miracles: ye perceyue well that he prosupposeth that yf euery such thyng be wryten in autentique scripture, then wythout myracles the mater is saue inough / and the trew preachers able inough to cōfounde the false by the scripture B alone. For but yf he saye so, he sayth no more for the alledgyng of scrypture then for the alledgynge of the fayth wythout scrypture.

Now Tyndale tellynge vs thus / we muste fyrst wyt of hym whych false ꝓphetes he meaneth, Paynyms, Turkes, or heretikes. If he meane Panynyms or Turkes, thē goeth he very farre wyde / for the trew preachers can not cōfounde them wyth our autentyke scrypture / for yt is not autentyke amonge them, but they saye that yt is false. If he meane heretykes, he goth almoste as farre wyde / for they wyll also when they lyste denye for holy scrypture any parte of holy scrypture that proueth agaynste theyr purpose / as they de­nye the boke of Machabees, bycause yt proueth purgatory and prayours for them that are dede / and denye the pystle C of saynte Iamys, bycause yt reproueth a bare fayth wyth­out good workes.

Now yf they admytte the scrypture for scrypture, yet are ye neuer the nere / for they wyll denye the trew sense therof, and obstynately defende a false / s [...] that the trew preacher and that false prophete shall be styll as farre a sonder, as yf they denyed the very scrypture yt selfe.

Now when he speketh of confoundynge them: we must wyt of hym what he meaneth by cōfoundyng them. whether he meane that the trewe preacher shall make the false pro­phete ashamed / or that he shall make the people perceyue theyr doctryne for false. As for makyng the false prophetes ashamed: ye se your selfe they be so shamelesse that yt wyll [Page ccxv] A not be, for ye se they wedde nonnes openly. And when they be not ashamed to loke folke in the face, after that shameful sacrylege and abomynable bychery: whereof wyll they be ashamed? Now if he meane that the trewe preacher shall by thautenque wrytyng, make the people perceyue y ^e false prophete false: I saye y ^t shall he not do by scrypture any thyng more largely, then he shall do the same by the worde of god vnwryten / whyche worde Tyndale wolde haue no man by leue. For the perceyuynge wherof, suppose me now that the trew preacher and the false prophete came to gether to dy­spute the trouth in a great audyence of people, vppon some suche artycle as the false prophete wolde teache agaynst the comen fayth of the catholyque chyrche. As let me se for en­sample / whether freres may wedde nonnes. Tut nay, y ^t can B serue for no sample, yt is to clere and to farre vndysputable for any false prophete to fynde any reasonynge therin / as y ^e thynge whych neuer syth the world was pepled, could haue founden any mā to thynke yt lawfull, tyll now / nor yet now neythe fyndeth any that so thynketh, as many wreches as so sayth and so dothe / nor yt were not possyble for the false prophete to fynde any colour therin, but such as all y ^e world wolde wonder at / excepte suche bestes as luste to seyt so for hatered and despyght of honestye. But let vs take therfore for ensample, some suche heresye as hath bene holden & dy­sputed of olde. And what rather then one of the greattest? that is to wyt that heresye that Arrius held and his great cō pany, that our sauyour Cryste was not one egall god wyth his father.

C Suppose me therfore I saye y ^t some false prophete were so deuelyshe as to preache that poynt agayne / and that he hadde by false preachynge wonne vnto hym (as Arrius had in his tyme) myche people all redy of euery state and degre / and that he sholde then come in an open audiēce of a mayne multytude, to dyspute wyth any trew preacher that wolde offer hym self to defende in that poynte the parte and bylefe of the catholyque chyrche. Now when the trew preacher and the false prophete were comen to gether, and fallen iu dyspycyons in two pulpettes on hygh y ^t all y ^e people myght here them / and that y ^e tone alledged dyuerse textes of scrypture for the trouth, & the tother as many for the false parte, and eche of them glose agaynst glose / & when the trew preacher wolde laye therto the consente of all the olde douctours, & [Page ccxvi] of all the catholyque chyrch of Cryste this fyftene hundred A yere, the false prophete wolde saye agayne as the false pro­phete Luther sayeth hym selfe, I set not by Hyerome, I set not by Austayne, I care not for an hunderd Gregories, I not for a thousande Cyprianes, I laye for me the playne worde of god. And for the catholyque chyrche that thou callest y ^e chyrch of Cryste, it is but a multytude of mortale men, whom yf I sholde byleue for y ^e multitude, I must rather by leue the Paynyms or the Machometanys, whych be many mo. And thy sayntes whom thou layest for the be dede / but the worde of god that I laye for me, lyueth and shall lyue for euer. And the chyrch of Cryste is vnknowen to men, but yt is well knowen to god / oute of whose hande no man can take them as our sauyour sayth, but though they slepe now and reste in hope as y ^e scripture sayth, my fleshe shall reste in B hope / they shall yet in the daye of the lorde awake at y ^e blast of the trumpe, & euer after lyue wyth the lord in his reigne. And of these I doute not was that holy mā Arrius & many a nother holy man of his secte.

Now yf agaynste all this, the trew preacher fall in far­ther dyspycyons agayne / as well about hys fyrste questyon as about the chyrch, wyth dyuerse other that incydently fall in debate bytwene them / and then for the fynall ende & playneste profe conclude and reste vppon the scrypture, and saye that he hath proued his parte well thereby, and that his textes be clere, and the textes of the tother parte are falsely wrested, and hys owne answeres effectuall, and the tothers but sophystycall / and then the false prophete for hym selfe agayne saye, that he ioyeth mych that theyr dysputacyon is C come to so good a poynt / for he knoweth well y ^t he hath alleged the scryptures ryght, and cōstrewed them in theyr trew sense, and that his aduersary is aduersary of the playne opē trouth, and preacheth and teacheth agayn his owne conscyence, and therby synneth agaynste the holy goost, whyche shall neuer be forgeuen in thys worlde nor in the worlde to come / for whose irremyssyble synne hym selfe is full sory, and exhorte hym to remēber the false prophete Balam, and beware by tyme, leste he come to lyke ende / and thē say y ^t he is yet glad agayn on tother syde, & hyghly thanketh y ^e lord, that hathe by his trew teachyng [...] the [...]e [...]pened the yi [...]s of y ^e peple about them, y ^t they now cle [...]ely se the lyght of trouth / whyche hath now putte awaye the darkenes of theyr igno­raunce, [Page ccxvii] A wherin the blynde leders the false popysh prechers haue led them wronge all this whyle byfore / the errour of whom he douteth not but that god hath by hym made them now so playnely to perceyue, that he well dare and so dothe make them all his iudges, whether of them both hath defended his parte better / and therfore prayth them to speke and shew theyr myndes therin / for the apostle sayth while other speke, the congregacyon muste iudge / and euery man (sayth Luther) for his owne soule byleueth or byleueth not, vppon his owne parell / & therfore vppon his owne bylyef what he sholde byleue and what not, muste nedes be iudge hym self: now good readers when they thus haue spoken bothe / thynke ye by your trouth that the people vnlerned of theyr audyence, shalbe metely to dyscerne and iudge whyther of B them hath spoken better, and whyther parte is bytwene thē better proued by scrypture? Are not the people well lykely wyth suche doutefull dyspycyons to be rather ledde out of the trouth, then well confermed in yt? namely syth many of them shalbe corrupted in corners, & drawen in to that false fayth byfore, as the guyse of heretyques is.

But now how myche parell were there more, yf this false prophete sholde as Tyndale putteth his case, come forth with false miracles to / and in the ende of his dysputacyon and his holy e [...]hortacyon theruppon, saye farther to the people thus: Dere brethern in the loue of the lorde the father & hys onely begoten sonne our sauyour Cryste, that cam into this wreched worlde to shew yt ensample of mekenesse, and not to make hym selfe as great a god as his father, as the C popyshe preachers preache vnto you / whych therby make you byleue that our may [...]er Cryste passed in pryde y ^e proud angell Lucifer, that for the same pryde was depryued of heuen and throwen in to hell, where he reigneth as prynce vppon all the sonnys of pryde: I am come as ye se sent by the blessed spyryte of the lorde, that hath prayed for you wyth syghes vnspekable, that ye myght be delyuered from thys errour, that this false preacher here & I haue dysputed vp­pon in your presence / where as you se & I am sure perceyue full well, that I haue wyth the worde of god ouercome hym vtterly though he bable on styll. But yet bycause the trouth standeth not in wordes but in vertue and power of dede: yt pleaseth god that for the strengthynge of weke cōscyences, I shall shew you more profe of the glorye of god. For syth [Page ccxviii] this euyll man misse ledde wyth an euyll spyryte, wold lede A you styll in a wronge waye, and make you mysse vnder­stande the scrypture / sayeng that I take yt wrong & teache you false, where as I made your selfe iudges of the mater: I shall now call god to iudge it hym selfe in your syghte, by some shew of his specyall presens and power. And then af­ter this spoken / sholde call vppe vnto hym some well kno­wen blynde man, and in the syght of all the people sodaynly make hym se. what sayth Tyndale to thys? here is hys owne case. were the autentyque scripture in thys case lykely to stay the people? surely me semeth naye. For though the scrypture be trew in yt selfe: yet syth yt is not so playne b [...]t that many great dyffycultees aryse thereuppon / in whyche though he, whyche vppon the studye therof hath bystowed many yeres, may perceyue the trew parte from the false: yet B vnto the vnlerned yt shalbe lykely full ofte, that in suche dy­spycyons the false parte maye seme treweste. And then how mych more yf he se in his owne syght myracles set therto.

But now say I that on the tother syde the worde of god vnwryten may stay all to g [...]ther. For I say that the trewth of that artycle taught and byleued as the chyrche wythout any doute or questyon byleueth / may be so surely grauen in mannys harte, that though he neuer haue redde nor herde neyther any scrypture in that poynte: yet presupposynge yt for an vndouted trouth, he shall set at nought all the false wrested scrypture of the f [...]lse prophete, and all his false my­racles to / and shall euer conster the scripture by the knowen artycle of the catholyque fayth, whych was tought and by­leued byfore those textes of scrypture were wrytē, and hath C yet the same trouth now that yt hadde then, not wythstan­dynge all the textes that seme to saye the contrary. And by this fayth in the worde of god vnwryten in theyr bokes / and yet wryten in theyre soules: dyd there many martyrs stand and shede theyr blood in wytnesse of the trouth therof, that neuer red nor herde the scrypture in theyr dayes / and wold in the same word vnwryten, wyth goddes grace haue wythstanden false myracles to, whych had yet bene vndou­tedly the sorest pynche, sauyng for the mo and more meruelouse myracles that them selfe saw or byleued done on the tother syde for the trouth.

But I say therfore as I haue oftē sayd byfore, that as for miracles he hath so specially kepte for the profe [...] of y ^e trouth, [Page ccxix] A that all the myracles whyche the paynyms or other infy­deles haue done excepte heretyques / he hath euer made his trew preachers to do greater myracles agaynste them, & by the greater miracles to destroye them / as he dyd in Moyses and in Heliseus, & in his holy apostles, & other holy sayntes after them. But as for heretykes, god hathe neuer sufferd them to do any miracles at all / bycause he wolde haue by y ^e marke of miracles hys very trew chyrche knowen from all the false chyrches of heretyques. Nor neuer shall he suffer them to do any, tyll y ^e great archeheretyke Antycryste come hym selfe / whyche as helpe me god I fere be very nere hys tyme, and that Luther is his very fore goar & his baptiste, to make redy his way in the deserte of this wreched world / and Tindale, frere Huskyn, and Swynglius, his very fals B prophetes to preache for hym. But when he shall come hym felfe and worke wonders, to peruert (yf yt myght be) the euery chosen to: yet shall he not worke miracles alone, but god shall for his chyrche in miracles farre passe hym / for an­ger whereof he shall kyll them and truste all in strength of sword. And bycause he shall haue so many wayes to turne the peple wronge: god shall not suffer the wreche longe, but shall shorten his dayes / and puttynge strength and miracle to gether, shall kyll hym wyth the spiryte or blaste of hys holy mouth. And thus good readers ye playnely now per­ceyue that syth the scrypture alone agaynst heretyques and miracles maye not suffyciently serue to vnlerned people, otherwyse then maye the bylyefe wythout the scripture / and also y ^t heretykes shall do no miracles tyll Antecryste come / C and yet then shall haue also greater miracles wrought a­gaynste hym, and that his tyme shalbe but shorte, and hym selfe fynally by miracle destroyed and kylled: ye se proued playnely, y ^• Tyndales secunde reason wyth whych he wold proue that the apostles lefte no necessary thynge vnwriten, hath in yt no reason at all.

Tyndale.

Some man wolde aske, how dyd god contynue his generacyon from Adam to Noe, and frō Noe to Abraam, and so to Moyses without writyng but with teachynge fro mouth to mouth. I answere fyrste that there was no scrypture in the worlde all the whyle / that shall they proue when our lady hath a new sonne.

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Tyndale sayth that some man wolde aske this question. [Page ccxx] But he knoweth well inough that I laye this agaynst hym A in my dialoge, bycause he so precysely sayth that nothynge maye be certaynely knowen to be byleued but by scrypture. And now he answereth me that our ladye shall haue a newe sonne, ere I cā proue that there was not scripture from the bygynnynge. He wayeth his wordes wysely, when he sayth that our lady shall haue a new sonne fyrst / whych he myght as well say by euery womā y ^t is passed this world, sauyng y ^t our lady neuer had a new sonne bysyde our sauyour Criste, is none artycle of his false fayth, as hym selfe playnely confesseth / bycause yt is not playnely wryten in scrypture.

But is not this a proper answere now? where as agaynst hys false grounde that there can be no trewe fayth but yf it be wryten in scrypture, I obiected agaynste hym the fayth of many good faythfull men / in whose dayes we can not B preue that theyr fayth was wryten, & yet we dowte not but that they were good & faythfull: he sayth I can not proue that they had no scrypture. If he wyll saye (as he doeth) that they coude haue no good and sure fayth wythout scrypture / and wyll also confesse (as he doth) that they had good and sure fayth: he must hym selfe proue that they had scrypture / and not tell me that our lady shall haue a newe sone ere I proue that they had no scrypture. For it is inough for me, y ^t our lady shall haue two new sonnes ere Tindale proue that some of those faythfull folke in the fyrst or seconde genera­cyon, had any wrytynge at all / and that our lady shall haue fyue new sonnes, ere Tyndale proue y ^t the faythfull people had before Moyses dayes and scrypture suche as Tyndale muste mene, but yf he go about to begyle vs wyth sophysty­call C equyuocacion. For our mater is not of scrypture, as it is taken for bare wrytynge, suche as euery scryueners boye wryteth in hys maysters shoppe / but as it sygnyfyeth suche holy wrytynge as god causeth to be wryten & byndeth folke to byleue, vppon the parell of theyr soule helth. And then I saye yet agayne that it is inough for me that our lady shall haue fyfcene new sonnys, ere Tyndale be able to proue me that some of those whom I alledge & he confesseth for faythfull folke, had any suche scrypture at all.

And Tyndale felynge full well that thys poynte pryk­keth hym, shrynketh hyther and thyder thereat, and seketh many shyftes. And for all the shyftes that he fyndeth here, bycause they all satysfye not hym selfe: he is fayne a [...]ter­warde [Page ccxxi] A in hys answere to my dyaloge, to seke vp some new / & sayth that in Noes dayes when the flode came, there were no mo lefte that byleued ryght but those that were saued in the shyppe. In whyche place he iesteth vppon that vertuose connynge man Nicholas de lira, sayeng Lira delirat. But it is more easy for Tyndale to make a mokke vppon hys name / then to obtayne his vertue and lernyng. But what winneth Tyndale by that answere there? yf he sayed trewe / yet were he neuer the nere. For yf the hole worlde were at that tyme fallen from the fayth saue those few: yet were it for my purpose suffycyent that the trewe fayth had fyrste from god to man, and so forth fro man to man, com [...] by mouth without scrypture vnto those few / though all the remanaunt that hadde herde thereof hadde then bene fallen fro the bylyefe B thereof, excepte onely those few / as all the knowen nacions of the worlde that hath herd of Crystes fayth and holy scry­pture to, be now fallen from both twayne, saue onely these few that yet remayne. And of them, some fall from the fayth and from theffecte of scrypture by false interpretacyon / as they that fall fro the sacramentes, & that so constre the scry­pture, that they wolde make yt saye that freres may wedde nonnes. Of both whych sortes yf there went so many away that the remanaunt whyche were lefte were as few as were takē into Noes shyppe: yet shold alway those few be the very chyrch of god vppon erth bycause of the ryght bylyef, all though that of those few some were nought of lyuyng. And amonge them shold there myracles of god cōtynue, to shew the presence of god, and strength them in the fayth, & make C his chyrche knowen / that such as are out, may fynde y ^e way to yt to come in yf they wyll / as he ceaced not to walke wyth the Iewes by miracles all though ther were many nought, tyll he quyte forsoke them / whyche by his promyse he shall neuer do Crystes catholyque chyrche.

Tyndale.

God taught Adam greater thynges then to wrytte.

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If he meane of spirytuall reuelacyons, it maketh lytle to y ^• purpose / yf of worldely thynges, I thynke well he taught hym thynges of greater necessyte, as peraduenture tyllage of the [...]de. But as for wrytynge, I wene as long as he lyued, was founden yet longe after Adams dayes. For though Adam hadde as g [...]at a wit as any man hath hadde [Page ccxxii] synnys: yet he foūde not out euery thyng that many a more A mene wyt hath founden synnys / excepte Tyndale tell vs that Adam prented bokes, and made glasses, and shotte gonnes to.

Tyndale.

And that there was writyng in the world long ere Abraam, ye and ere Noe, do storyes testyfye.

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Full well. But there is none of those storyes any thynge sybbe to saynt Iohn̄s gospell. He fyndeth not in them: Qu [...] vidit testimonium perhibuit/nor, verum est testimonium eius.

There were storyes, whyche as saynte Austayne sayth, wrote of thynges done thousandes of yeres byfore y ^e world was made. And though yt were proued as yt is not, y ^t there were wrytynge from the bygynnynge: yet as I sayed by­fore, B yt wolde not proue that there was holy scrypture that tyme / whyche is the onely wrytynge that muste be proued, or ellys all that he proueth is as good vnproued.

Tyndale.

Not wythstandynge though there hadde bene no wrytynge: the preachers were euer prophetes gloryouse in doynge myracles, wherewyth they confyr­med theyr preachynge.

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Thys is ryght well sayed and very largely / and lakketh nothynge now, but euen to be as well and largely proued. whych whē he shall so largely proue me by playne scripture (wythout whych by Luthers owne rule, Luthers owne scoler maye not loke to be byleued) he shall haue myche a do I trow. For he sayth that by all this tyme whyche was y ^e space C of so many hundred yeres, y ^• preachers were euer prophetes and gloryouse in doynge of miracls, wherwyth they confermed theyr preachynge. Ueryly Noe we fynde that he confyrmed his preachynge wyth myracle, that was wyth the flode that drowned the whole worlde. But ellys in that age from Adam to his day / what myracles fyndeth Tyndale done by the preachers? Now from Noe to Abraam, how many myracles fyndeth he done by the preachers. Nor from Abraam to Moyses neyther, he fyndeth not very many / so that yt wyll I wene be very harde for hym to proue, that the prea­chers dyd alwaye proue all that whyle theyr preachynge by myracles.

But I am very glad to here hym saye so / and am [...]te [...]ts [Page ccxxiii] A to discharge hym of y ^• profe, and agre that he sayeth trouth. And then say I that syth hym selfe agreeth that for y ^• profe of the prechers doctryne, prechynge all one thynge downe fro generacyon to generacyon by the space of so many hun­dred yeres, holy preachers and myracles were so necessary, that for the necessyte therof he presumeth that it was so: it is reason that he agre also, that by thys hole tyme of fyftene hundred yeres of Crystes chyrche, holy preachers wyth my­racles haue ben as necessary. And then syth he muste also graunte that god hath had as mych cure of the chyrche of hys sonne, as he had of any chyrche before: he muste graūte that of eche thynge necessary god hath as well prouyded for it, as euer he dyd for any. wherof it foloweth that syth holy preachers and myracles were alwaye so necessary in the B other, that god alwaye prouyded them so plentuousely, that they neuer lakked: he hath in lyke wyse all thys whyle prouyded, that in hys owne chyrche holy preachers and myra­cles haue also contynued and haue neuer lacked. And then foloweth forther, that syth in all thys whyle there hath ne­uer ben in any chyrche of heretykes (as many as haue ben of them) neyther saynt nor myracle / but bothe twayne euer plentuousely contynued in thys onely chyrche, whyche is y ^e comen knowen catholyke chyrche of Cryste: theruppon fo­loweth it fynally, that onely it is the trewe chyrche of god / and that all the other be false chyrches of the deuyll.

Now yf Tyndale wyll saye that it is now not lyke / for there is no cause neyther of holy preachers nor miracles, bycause we haue the scryptures / as Abraam sayed vnto the C ryche gloton that lay in hell and wolde haue Lazarus sent into his fathers howse to gyue hys brethern warnyng, Lucae. 1 [...] they haue all redy Moyses and the prophetes / and yf they by­leue not them, no more wyll they byleue one that were come hense neyther: thys wyll not serue Tyndale. For they were not excusable whyche then hadde the scryptures, consyde­rynge that the scrypture had bene and yet euery age were well testyfyed with myracles, in that the prophetes and pre­chers therof, and the places where it was preched and occu­pyed in goddys seruyce, were by god illustrate and set out wyth myracles / in so mych that he dyd not onely sende in to the worlde his prophetes and trewe preachers with myra­cles, 4. Regum. 13. but also by the bon [...]s of them raysed and sent in to the worlde dede men also, to gyue the worlde warnynge to, [Page ccxxiiii] though he lysted not to do so mych at that wreches request [...] A And fynally when all was to lytle, and that they fell to false constrewynge of the scrypture, and so byganne to multyply theyr false doctryne, that they made the better byleuynge folke the fewer and the false parte y ^• greater: he taryed not longe but cam hym selfe to reforme yt & bygynne his owne specyall chyrche wyth hys owne preachynge and hys holy apostles / not wyth bare dyspycyons and berynge men in hande the wordes of the scryptrue were playne inough / but wyth plentuouse miracles, to reproue the false doctryne of the false pharysees y ^• had bygōne to teache cōtrary to tehyr olde holy fathers byfore. And thus hath god euer synnis sent holy sayntes in to his chyrch, as the reason of his good­nesse requyred that he shold. And where these new pharisees these manyfolde sectes of heretykes, both now do, and fro y ^• B bygynnynge haue done, mysse constre the scrypture of god agaynst the mynde of Cryste and his apostles: our lord sendeth and euer hath sent not onely good vertuous preachers agaynste them, but also reproueth and euer hath reproued theyr moste commen heresyes agaynste sayntes and sacra­mentes wyth dayly meruelouse miracles / and neyther suf­ferth nor neuer [...]uffred any one to be wrought amonge all them, but suche as he worketh sometyme, where he maketh an image to speke, or the blessed sacrament to blede, to de­tecte theyr dyspyghtfull dealynge, and make them be bur­ned therfore / where as they shall neuer fynde in scrypture that euer god suffred false miracle eyther by man or deuyll to be done to the confusyon of his trew prophete. And ther­fore yt is playne yet agayne that t [...]e catholyke chyrch is the C trew chyrche, and all these heretykes congregacyons false.

Tyndale.

And beyonde that, god wrote his testament vnto them allway, both what to do, and what to byleue euen in sacramētes. [...] the sacrifices whych god [...] Adams sonnes, were no dumme popetrye or superstycyouse maho [...]et [...]ye, but sygnes of the testament of god / and in them they red the worde of god as we do in bokes.

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Tyndale telleth vs here a nother fayre tale. But in thys I say as I sayed byfore in the tother / that hys tale lakketh but all that yt sholde haue, that is to [...] the profe. For ye shall here now how he wolde seme to proue yt.

A Tyndale.

The testament whyche god made wyth Noe, that he wolde no mo [...]e drowne the worlde wyth water / he wrote in the sacrament of the raynebowe. And the appoyntement made betwene hym and Abraam / he wrote in the sacra­ment of cyrcumcysyon. And therfore sayed Steuen, Actes .vij. he gaue them the testament of cyrcumcysyon / not that the outwarde cyrcumcysyon was the hole testament / but the sacrament or sygne therof. For cyrcumcysyon preached goddys worde vnto them as I haue in other places declared.

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Is not this well proued now. He sheweth vs of sacrifices of cyrcumcisyon, and of the raynebowe / whyche he coupleth wyth sacryfyces and circumcysyon, and calleth yt a sacra­ment lyke the tother, bycause he wolde haue vs wene that no sacrament eyther then dyd or now doth, any more profyt B the soule then doth the raynebowe. whyche raynebow whe­ther god made new to make men sure of his promyse by the meruelouse new syght therof, or that it beynge but an apparaunce naturall by the reflexyon of the sonne / I wyll not dyspute bycause of other mennys wrytynge. But thys I wote well, I se no man wryte therof that euer saw yt a fore.

Nor yf it hadde neuer be sene yet / there wolde I wene for all the naturall reasons that men make now therfore, neuer a man haue myssed yt. But as I saye were yt the tone were yt the tother / god eyther made yt or appoynted yt but for a sygne of bodely helth and the worlde, to be preserued from vnyuersall flode / where as sacryfyces and cyrcumcysyon & mych more the blessed sacramentes of Crystes chyrche, per­teyne to the soule helth / not as bare sygnes, but as thynges C well helpyng there vnto / as prayour doth and all reuerent maner and deuout fashyon vsed by man therein. But thys is all Tyndales purpose to pull down the sacramentes and haue them taken for bare symple sygnes. For surely to cou­ple the sacryfyce of Ab [...]ll or the sacrament of circumcysyon wyth the sygne of the raynebow / is almoste as well lykened as to lyken the matens that men synge at chyrche, or y ^e blessed sacrament at the masse, to the sygne of the sarasons hed.

But now cōsyder how well these thynges proue his goostly purpose. He sayth that frō Adam to Moyses god taught them in sacramētes alwaye both what they shold do & what they sholde byleue / and he proueth yt bycause god dyd so in thre. And so this is hys argument, god dyd so [...]hryes, ergo he dyd so a [...]way / god dyd s [...] [...] thre, ergo he dyd so in al / god [Page ccxxvi] in sacramentes taught them some thynges, ergo in sacra­mentes A he taught them all thynges.

where fyndeth Tyndale that god taught Abraam, what thynge the cyrcumcysyon sholde sygnyfye, or wherfore he sholde do yt, other then that he wolde haue hym and all hys do yt / what morall vertue he shold vnderstande therby, as the cuttynge of and ca [...]tynge awaye of all superfluouse carnall thynges, or any suche other thynge, what dyd he teche hym. Or where fyndeth he that to the people was any suche thynge preached therby, when the circumcisyon was geuen and commaunded.

In the sacryfyce of Abell in kyllynge and offerynge the bestes / where fyndeth Tyndale that there was taught vnto Abell or any man ellys, that yt sholde sygnyfye the kyllyng of fleshely lustes or any suche other thynges / sauynge that B they sholde serue god in that maner, whyche yet we rather gather by reason then fynde yt wryten in scrypture.

where fyndeth he that Abraam was taught, that in of­ferynge vppe his sonne Isaac, and then the shepe in hys stede / yt sholde sygnyfye the offerynge of Cryste vppon the crosse, or any thyng ellys, but his thankfull obedyence and profe of his faste fayth and hope in god.

And though yt may appere in euery sacryfyce and in euery prayour vnto god, that men sholde loue god aboue all thynge: yet in what sacrifyce were they lerned to loue theyr neyghboure?

Thys is a vayne tale of Tyndale whyche he shall neuer proue whyle he lyueth. And yet the better he proueth it yf he coulde proue yt / the worse sholde he make his mater. For if C sacramentes were wyth them in all that tyme able to be profytable wythout scrypture: then so may oures be now pro­fytable wythout scrypture / excepte he fynde therfore a pro­hybycyon in scrypture, whyche neyther he nor none of hys felowes euer founde yet, nor neuer shall fynde whyle they lyue. For where as they lay for a prohybycyon the wordes of Moyses in the Deuteronomy / commaundynge that no man shall adde nor mynyshe [...] they that laye that texte for a prohybycyon of oure sacramentes vnwryten, be as I shall shew you afterwarde surely to madde to lyue.

Now seeth Tyndale this to be very trouth hym self, th [...] yf sacramētes were wythout scrypture profytable vnto thē, and stode them in the stede of scrypture: yt myght be by the [Page ccxxvii] A same reason in lykewyse profytable to vs, and stande vs instede, whyche thynge destroyeth all his whole purpose. And therfore to answere that wythall / he sayth that so yt myght in dede, yf that the wykked pope hadde not taken away the sygnyfycacyons of our sacramentes from vs, as he hath robbed vs (sayth Tyndale) of the trēw sence of all the scrypture.

Tyndale muste here tell vs whyche pope hath taken frō vs the sygnyfycacyon of the sacramentes, and robbed from vs the trew sence of the scrypture. If any pope this .viii. hū derd yere (by all whych tyme Tyndale sayth they haue ben all nought) haue done any thyng therin contrary to the old popes y ^• were by the space of .vii. hundred yere nexte byfore that, which popes he denyeth not for good nor cā not deny: let hym tell whyche, and wherin, and wherby he can proue B yt. But that am I sure he shall neuer shew whyle he lyueth. For I wote well that the olde holy workes that haue bene made, as well by olde holy popes, as saynte Gregory, saynt Leo, and other / as by the olde holy doctours, as saynt Hye­rom, saynt Austayne [...] and other, concernynge as well the sygnyfycacyons of sacramētes, as the trew sence of scrypture: do cōsent and agre to gether agaynst Tyndale and Luther and frere Huskyn and all theyr fonde felowes. And yf Tyndale saye nay: lette hym shew me whyche olde holy popes were they, that euer hylde that the sacramentes of the au­ter is suche a bare symple sygne, and sette but onely to sy­gnyfye the memoryall of Cry [...]tes passyō, and vnyte of hym and vs, wyth loue and concorde amonge our selfe / & that it were synne to thīke yt were not brede styll as Luther sayth, C or to thynke yt were any thynge ellys, as Tyndale & frere Huskyn sayth / and great synne to worshyppe yt, as Luther Huskyn, and Tyndale saye. And as concernynge the trew sence of scripture, whych he sayth the pope hath robbed frō vs / and meaneth the popes of eyght hundred yere last pas­sed, whyche trew sence Tyndale now bryngeth agayne: let hym shew then whyche popes of the tother seuen hundred yere byfore, or whyche holy doctours of all that longe tyme byfore / dyd constre the scrypture so, that any of them wold saye that a monke myght wedde a nonne. And lo thus ye se good readers in what worshyppefull wyse Tyndale proueth all his purpose. But now wyll we go farther.

Tyndale.

But in the tyme of Moyses when the congregacion was increaced, that they [Page ccxxviii] must haue many preachers and also rulers temporall: then all was receyued A in scrypture.

More.

Here is hys hole grounde wheruppon he wyll anone cō clude, that syth all was then receyued in scrypture amonge the iewes / so must it folowe that all was receyued by scryp­ture amonge crysten men. whyche foloweth not as I wyll after shewe you, though he sayed trew / in that he sayth that in the tyme of Moyses all was receyued in scrypture.

But syth that theruppon is all hys hole mater groūded: let hym proue you that poynte fyrste. For ye consyder well that it is not inough to hym that they then receyued scryp­ture / but he must proue that then they receyued all in scry [...] ­ture / and that euery thyng [...] that they sholde do or byleue, was then delyuered them in scrypture. And therfore syth y ^t B thys is the poynt and the thynge that he sayth and proueth not: let hym proue you thys well fyrste, and then go forther in goddys name. what profe he bryngeth ye sh [...]ll se / & how trewe it is ye shall sone iudge. Thus he sayth.

Tyndale.

All was then receyued in scrypture / in so mych that Cryste and his apostles myghte not haue ben byleued without scrypture for all theyr myracles.

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Lo thys is all the hole profe that euer he bryngeth forth for thys poynte, wheruppon hys hole purpose hangeth. And in dede it were somwhat / if it were as trew as it is false For he neyther hath any scripture to proue it / & all reason is quyte agaynste it. Fyrste as for scrypture, though Cryste shewed to the iewes as the trouth was, that the scrypture C made mencyon of hym: yet he neuer sayed vnto thē as Tindale sayeth, that he myght not be byleued els / nor no scryp­ture so sayth. He sayeth no more of scrypture then of saynte Iohn̄ the baptyste. For he sayeth that the scrypture [...]ereth wytnesse of hym, and so sayth he of [...]aynt Iohn̄ to.

But bycause Tyndale compareth the scrypture with myracles, and setteth so lytell by goddes worde vnwryten: Cryste sayed sumwhat more by myracles and by hys owne worde at that tyme vnwryten, then he sayd eyther by saynte Iohn̄ or by y ^e scripture eyther. Iohan. 15. For he sayed of those twayne [...] that yf eyther of bothe had lakked / they [...]d not ben in the synne of infydelite. And he sayth not so mych of saynt Iohn̄, nor of the scrypture neyther.

[Page ccxxix] A Now reason is clere agaynste Tyndale, in that he sayth that Cryste and his apostles could not be byleued for all the miracles. For though god hadde neuer geuen warnyng by Moyses, that there sholde come a nother prophete: yet ex­cepte god had expressely sayd that he wolde neuer sende mo (whyche he sayed not) what sholde let Cryste to be byleued commynge wyth miracles / and though he wolde teache in the bylyefe, not contrary artycles to those that were byfore taught, but other reuelacyons farther that were not taught byfore, and in workes make what chaunge that god lyste to commaunde. Goddes worde when yt was brought vnto the people by Moyses / was yt byleued for goddes sake or for Moyses? If for goddes sake / then though Cryste had not bene god as he was: yet syth god sent hym wyth mira­cles B as he sent Moyses, what sholde lette hym to be byleued as well as Moyses, though he hadde neuer be spoken of byfore? Now yf for Moyses sake / Cryste was as good as Moyses was, all hadde he not ben god / and incomparably better syth he was god. why coulde he not then haue ben by leued wythoute the wytnesse of Moyses, commynge wyth miracles mo then euer Moyses dyd or all the prophetes by­syde / and namely doyenge so many in his owne name.

And bycause that in the credence geuē vnto Cryste [...] Tyndale geueth so great preemynens to the scrypture aboue the myracles of Cryste / that is to saye to the worde of god wryten aboue wonderfull workes of god done: lette Tyndale vnderstande that the cause why the wytnesse of scrypture holpe vnto the credēce of Cryste, was by reason of miracle / C that is to wyt bycause yt prophecyed of hym. whyche thyng that shall come so longe after / is a great miracle.

And yet farther they that wolde not byleue in Cryste for hys miracles / wolde not byleue in hym for the scrypture neyther.

And yet for the fynall confutacyon of Tyndales foly, in sayeng that Cryste for all his miracles coulde not haue ben byleued but for the scrypture: euery fole knoweth that all the worlde saue the Iewes in theyr turnynge to Crystes by­lyefe, were not led by the scrypture but by the miracles / and byleued not Cryste for the scrypture, but byleued the scry­pture for Cryste, & Cryste for the myracles. And the Iewes whyche people moste byleued the scrypture / of them I saye fewest byleued in Cryste.

Tyndale. A

Wherfore for as myche Crystes congregacyon is spredde abrode into all the worlde, mych broder then Moyses / and in as mych as we haue not the olde testament onely but also the new, wherin all thynges are opened so rychely and all fullfylled, that byfore was promysed / and in so mych that there is no promyse byhynde of ought to be shewed more saue the resurreccyon / ye and se­ynge that Criste and all the apostles with all the angellis of heuen yf they were here, coulde preache no more then is preached of necessyte to our soules: how then sholde we receyue a new artycle of our fayth wythout scrypture, as pro­fytable vnto my soule as smoke for sore yies.

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Here Tyndale maketh hys conclusyon, that syth Moy­ses bycause the people was encreaced, so fully receyued all thynges necessarye to be byleued in scrypture, that Cryste hym selfe myghte not haue be byleued wythoute scrypture B (whyche thynge is very false) therfore yt foloweth that Cristes congregacyon hath all thynges necessary to be byle­ued wryten in scrypture / whyche thynge is as false, and reason yt is that yt be false, when he concludeth yt vppon false. But Tyndale perceyuyng well hym selfe how fals his fun­dacyon is, & how feble hys byeldynge is that he setteth theruppon: hath therfore to make yt stande the surer, vndershoren & vnderpropped it wyth certayne other stronge postes made of roten redys.

One is that all thynges be now bysyde the olde testamēt, opened rychely in the new testamēt, that byfore were promysed. Thys vnderpropper is not very proper for to bere vppe his byldynge / for yt is the selfe same thynge that is in questyon. For we saye that yf he take the new testament for C the boke of that scrypture wryten: he muste not onely saye but also proue, that euery thynge is opened therein, that of necessyte for our soule helth is to be byleued or done / & this is the thynge selfe that is in debate. And therfore whyle he doth but tell vs and proue it not / and so vnderproppeth his assercyon wyth yt selfe: he sheweth hym self as wyse, as one that leste his roten house sholde fall, wold go about to take downe the roefe, and pull vppe the groūdsell to vndershore the sydes wyth the same.

Then setteth he to yt a nother shorer, that all thynge is in the new testament fulfylled that was promysed byfore / & also that there is no promise byhynde of ought to be she [...]ed more, saue the resurreccyon. Nowe this shorer ys so surely [Page ccxxxi] A sette, that yt is shortely blowen downe quyte, yf a man say no more but what than. For bysydes that, as there laye mo promyses in the olde testament then euery man well vnder­stode / so maye there yet peraduenture lye mo promyses vnperceyued yet, eyther by Tyndale or me, both in the old and in the new. But I saye bysydes this / and bysyde this also that Tyndale sayth here vntrew (for bysyde y ^e resurreccion there are yet vnfulfylled as well dyuerse promyses of tokēs & thynges that shall come byfore y ^e resurreccyon, & all those thynges perde that are promised to come after, as the iudgement yt selfe, and blesse or payne euerlastynge to the iudged bodyes) but yet I saye bysyde all this / what yf all the pro­myses be fulfylled sauynge the resurreccyon: dothe that proue that there coulde be nothynge of necessyte byleued B wythoute scrypture? Is there nothynge to be byleued but promyses? If god tell me a thynge or byd me do a thynge / am I not bounde to byleue the tone nor to do the tother by­cause they be no promyses? If Tyndale speke wysely in thys, I muste nedes confesse my foly / for in good fayth I can se no wyt therein.

But fynally he setteth to a myghty stronge poste able to bere downe all, when he sayth that Cryste, and all hys a­postles, and all the angellys of heuen, coulde preache no more then is preached of necessyte to our soules. And ther­fore [...] and for all the wyse and well framed reasons whyche I haue reproued, and proued vnresonable byfore: he sayth that to receyue a new artycle of fayth wythout scrypture, were as profytable for our soules as smoke for sore yies

C This is a substauncy all shorer lo, and very surely set I assure you. For fyrste I myght agre all that he sayeth and his purpose neuer the more proued. For where he sayeth y ^• all is all redy preached that is necessary or can be necessarie to y ^e soule: yf I wold answere and say, that is very trew, all suche thynges is all redy preached, but all suche preachyng is not wryten / where were now Tyndales cōclusyon? But I wyll not be so madde to graūte hym that all is eyther writen or preached eyther, that can be of necessyte to mannes soule. For who wolde be so madde to thynke that god kno­weth not many thynges that we know not / and that he can yf yt please hym reuele and shew vs any of those, and com­maunde vs to byleue them when so euer he lyste. And when [Page ccxxxii] he so wold do / thē were they of necessyte to our soules saluacyon A to be byleued. And he maye when yt please hym com­maunde vs to do some other thynges that he hath not com­maunded yet / and then sholde we be boūde to do them. And he maye commaunde to leue vndone some thynges that he hath byfore commaunded to be done / and then sh [...]ld [...] we be bounden to leue them vndone. And this is so playne and e­uydent to euery man, that hath any sparke of reason in his hedde / that I wonder where Tyndale hadde lefte his wyt when he wrote thys?

And this was also a wyse temperaunce of the mater that he sayeth for these wyse causes, that yt were as holsome for our soules as smoke for sore yies, yf we receyued any newe artycles of fayth wythout scripture. If the yien of his soule B were not sore blered or starke blynde wyth the smo [...]e o [...] the smoky fyre of hell / he wolde sone haue sene wyth hys two yien hys two folyes in these few wordes. For he sayth if we receyued a new artycle wythout scrypture / wherby he con­fesseth that yf god wyll geue vs a new artycle in scrypture, as he gaue Moyses / yt were not vnholesome. And what cā he then saye but yf god gyue yt wythout scrypture, he must be byleued / but yf Tyndale dare saye that the tre [...]th of god do depende vpon his wrytynge, and y ^• his worde be nought worth tyll yt be wryten? A nother fol [...] is thys, that he sayth yf we receyue a new article / and then all the samples [...] that he putteth be olde / and we shall putte hym some other as old.

Tyndale.

What holpe yt me to byleue that our ladyes bodye is in heuen.

More. C

If thys be a new byleued artycle / lette Tyndale tell whē thys bylyef beganne / & he shall fynde that yt hath ben thus byleued euen frō the tyme of her deceace. And now y ^e thyng that almoste .xv.C. yere hath ben byleued / he calleth a ne [...] artycle. But now how lyke is thys bylyef of this newe artycle of .xv. hund [...]ed yere olde, vnto hys ensample of smoke & sore yies. For fyrste yf yt holpe hym not / yet at the leste yt hu [...]ted hym not as sm [...]ke doth sore yies. But syth it is trew and taught vnto the chyrche by the spyryt [...] [...]f god, whyche ledeth the chyrche int [...] euery tro [...]th / and [...]h [...] [...]hyrche grow [...] into the consent and argument the [...]of by the same spiryte of [...] concorde and agrement, whych maketh all the house of on [...] my [...]de / and though the bylefe therof were very new: yet yt [Page ccxxxiii] A helpeth hym and doth hym good to byleue yt / as yt helpeth hym and doth hym good yf he byleue other trouthes whych god hath reueled and shewed by wrytynge byfore / excepte Tyndale trust not god vppon his word, but yf he geue hym his wrytynge there vppon and his letters patentes vn­der his great seale. For ellys why sholde yt not helpe hym as mych to byleue that our ladyes body and soule is in he­uen, syth god hath taught his chyrche so to byleue / as yt helpeth hym to byleue that Enoch or Hely, is bodye & soule in paradyse, syth he maye do the tone that doth the tother. And he sayth the tone that sayth the tother / though he saye them not bothe in one maner, but the tone by wrytynge the tother by mouth. For the inwarde inspiracyon of hys spy­ryte / is his mouth vnto his resonable creatures.

B How be yt he sayth and speketh in dede the tone thynge and the tother, bothe of one fashyon. For yf he speke / he but inspyreth his worde in to some creature that speketh yt out. And as he speketh he wryteth. And therfore who so better byleueth the word of god wryten, thē y ^e worde of god vnwrytē / that is to wyt the scripture, then the inspyracyon: he byleueth better the creature that wrote it, then god hym self that inspyred yt.

If Tyndale wyll auoyde thys and say, nay / but I by­leue better these men that wrote y ^e tone of Enoch and Hely, then I beleue th [...]se men that tell me the tother of our lady: then muste Tyndale tell vs why he better byleueth those then these. wherin what hath he to saye, but that those that wrote it in the scrypture were inspyred of god and so he by­leueth C it, as the worde not of men but of god. Then answere we agayne / that they that tell me y ^e tother of our lady, were inspyred of god / and therfore it helpeth hym to byleue it as the worde not of menne but of god. If he aske how shall he know that god inspyred the men that tell hym y ^e tale of our lady: we must aske hym agayne, how knoweth he that god inspyred them that wrote the tale of Enoch or Hely. If he say that he knoweth it bycause it is holy scrypture: we then shall aske hym ferther how he knoweth that it is holy scryp­ture. And then is he dreuen to the poynt, that when he hath all do [...]/he muste be fayne to fle to the chyrche, and say that he know [...]h [...] by the chyrche. And when he shall shewe you by whych [...] chyrche he knoweth it: he muste nedys shew you some chyrch [...] whyche hym self [...] may knowe / for ellys how [Page ccxxxiiii] sholde any suche chyrche tell it hym as hym selfe knoweth A not? And when he sheweth you any knowen chyrche / he is dowble confounded. For bothe he destroyeth hys heresye y ^t no chyrche sholde be byleued but electes / and also shall be dreuen to confesse, y ^t he knoweth the scrypture by our chyr­che / that is to wyt Crystes catholyke chyrche whych he refuseth. And then shall we ferther tell hym for hys thyrde confusyon, that by the same selfe chyrche doeth he knowe that god hath inspyred that other artycle of our lady. And yet for his fourth confusyon, we shall tell hym ferther, y ^t the selfe same scrypture whyche hym selfe by the meane of the chyrches te­chynge byleueth to be the worde of god, techeth hym also to byleue, that thys thynge whyche yt byleueth of our lady, is eyther good to byleue or at the lestewyse not euyll, nor lyke smoke to sore eyes / syth our sauyour hym selfe in the same B scrypture sayth, that the spyryte of god shall teche them all trouth, and lede them into euery trouth and that for euer / syth hym selfe there promyseth that he wyll not leue them, but be wyth them for euer vnto the worldes ende.

And thus good crysten [...]eaders ye se to what wourshyp­full conclusyon, wyth a fourfolde confusyon. Tyndale hath brought hym selfe, wyth layenge thys artycle wherby he wolde mynysshe the wourshyppe of our most blessed lady.

But lykewyse as he speketh here of the assumpcyon of our lady / the bylefe wherof he wolde sholde seme to serue of nought: the same sayth he in dyuerse places of the bylefe of the perpetuall vyrgynyte of our lady / sayenge, that it is no­thynge pertaynynge to the saluacyon of our soule. But I C saye that the catholyke chyrche of Cryste byleueth, that the bylefe therof beynge (as it is, and from the begynnyng hath ben) taught by the holy goost / so perteyneth to the salua­cion of our soules, that the contrary bylefe perteyneth to the dampnacyon of our soules yf heresye be dampnable. And that thys is no new artycle, well appereth by that that the olde holy doctour saynt Hierome so ferforth rekened it for heresye, that he wrote an hole boke agaynste the olde he­retyke Heluidius for y ^e confutacyon of y ^e heresye. In which vertuouse boke saynt Hierom neyther proueth nor goeth aboute to proue her perpetuall vyrgi [...]yte by s [...]rypture / but onely proueth that the places of scrypt [...]re whyche [...] ­dius brought forth for the contrary, were not effectu [...] [...] proue hys malycyouse purpose, agaynste the comen r [...] ­ued [Page ccxxxv] A fayth of Crystes catholyke chyrche. Agaynste whyche we may be very sure that y ^e scrypture neuer speketh in dede / how apparent so euer an heretyke make it seme.

For lykewyse as though a sophyster wolde wyth a fonde argument, proue vnto a symple soule that two egges were thre / bycause that there is one, and there be twayne, and one and twayne make thre: that symple vnlerned man, though he lakke lernynge to soyle his fonde argumēt / hath yet wyt inough to laugh thereat, and to ete the two egges hym self, and byd the sophyster take and ete the thyrde. So is euery faythfull man as sure in the syghte of hys soule, how appa­rently so euer an heretyke argue by scrypture to y ^e contrary, that the comen fayth of Crystes catholyke chyrche is out of questyon trewe / and that the scripture vnderstanden ryght, B is neuer therto contrary / syth he woteth well bothe by hys fayth and by the scrypture, that the chyrche is taught hys fayth by god and hys holy spyryte / accordynge to Crystes promyse that can neuer be false / and woteth well also that god neuer techeth agaynste the trouth, nor wryteth agaynst hys worde, but that the contraryete that semeth, arryseth of heretykes malycyouse soteltye, or as holy saynte Austayne sayth, for lakke of well vnderstandyng. whych mysse vnder stādynge may sone mysse lede y ^• man whych lyst to leue the fayth of Crystes catholyque chyrche, and lene to the doc­tryne of a false heretyque or to the lykynge his owne wyt.

But for bycause Tyndale wyll when we haue all sayed, stykke styll at one poynt / and aske vs what shall profyte his soule to byleue that our ladye is in heuen bodye and soule C(of whyche he playnely [...]yleueth the contrary, bothe for her bodye and her soule / for he byleueth wyth Luther, that all soules slepe, and slepe shall tyll the daye of dome) and wyll aske vs also what profyteth hym to byleue that our la­dye was a perpetuall virgyne and neuer hadde chylde but Cryste / syth none of those both articles is proued by playne scrypture / and we myght be saued well inough though our ladyes body cam not in heuē tyll domes day / & also though she hadde mo sonnes then one and mo husbādes to: I wyll aske hym then agayne, what profyteth hym to byleue that our sauyour hym selfe dyed a virgyne, and neuer had wyfe nor chylde / syth that artycle is not proued by very playne scripture neyther: & he myght by his passiō haue wrought our redēpcion, all though he had wedded & goten chyldrē to

[Page ccxxxvi]And in good fayth I wene we shall se those folke fall so A frantyque ones / that they shall not let at laste, to say he dyd so to / and bydde vs go proue the contrarye by scrypture, or ellys they be at theyr angelycall lybertye to byleue whyche waye they lyste. But now come we to Tyndales other example that he putteth of purgatorye.

Tyndale.

What am I the better for the bylyefe of purgatorye.

More.

In good fayth not the better of an halfpeny, whyle ye by leue yt no better then ye do. But surely if ye byleued yt well / ye myghte be bothe the better for purgatorye and y ^e farther from hell.

Tyndale.

To fere men wyth, thou wylte saye. B

More.

He maketh men answere as yt pleaseth hym selfe. But we wyll not saye so / for it were a folyshe sayeng to say, Tyndale is the better for the bylyefe of purgatorye to fere men wyth. what fole wolde saye so but Tyndale? For Tyndals bylyef can not fere folke, no more then other mennys bylyef fereth Tyndale / nor Tyndale is not y ^e better though other men be aferde. And therfore that questyon as he folyshely frameth yt, so he folyshely answereth yt.

But I saye that purgatory is ordeyned for the punyshe­ment of suche synnys, as were eyther venyall in the bygyn­nynge / or from mortall turned to venyall by the forgyue­nesse of the mortalyte.

And I saye that the bylyefe th [...]rof profyteth two maner C of wyse. One wyse in that yt maketh a man to be preserued thens, or to be the lesse whyle there / by that yt maketh hym do penaunce and good workes here, of whiche two thynges Tyndale abhorreth to here.

A nother waye the bylyefe therof profyteth, in that as for so farre forth yt kepeth the byleuer from hell / into y ^e fyre wherof for the contrary bylyefe and heresye holden agaynst yt, he sholde ellys fall hed [...]ynge downe / byleued he neuer so well, and lyued he neuer [...]o well also bysyde. And therfore of the bylyefe of purgatory there commeth [...]hese profy [...]es [...] other folke / though Tyndale be neue [...] [...]he better for the by­lyefe therof, whyche byleueth yt not.

A Tyndale.

Cryste and his apostles thoughte hell inough. And yet besydes that, the fles­shely ymagynacyons maye not stande with goddes worde. what greate fere can there be of that terryble fyre, whyche thou mayste quenche almoste for thre halfpens.

More.

Nay surely that fyre is not so lyghtely quenched, that folke sholde vppon the boldenesse of perdons, stande out of the fere of purgatory. For lykewyse as though the sacramēt of penaunce be able to put away theternalyte of the payne / yet hath the party for all that, cause to fere bothe purgatory and hell to, leste some defaute vppon hys owne parte letted god in the sacrament, to worke such grace in hym as sholde serue therfore: so though the perdon be able to dyscharge a B man of purgatory / yet may there be suche defaute in y ^e party to whom the perdon is graunted, that though he gyue for thre halfpence thre hundred pounde, yet shall he receyue no perdon at all. And therfore can he not be for thre halfe­pence out of fere of purgatory, but euer hath cause to fere it. For no man excepte reuelacyon, can be sure whyther he be partener of the perdon or not / though he maye haue and ought to haue bothe in that and euery good thynge good hope.

And yf the fere of purgatory were so clere gone, bycause it myghte be quenched wyth the coste of thre halfepence: then were the fere of hell gone [...] by Tyndales techynge / syth bare fayth and sleyght repentyng putteth out that fyre clene, wythout the cost of a peny.

C And where he say [...]h that Cryste and hys apostles thought hell inough / I aske hym how he preueth that. For we se well by experyence that hell and purgatory to, be scant inough bytwene them bothe, to refrayne folke from synne. we se also that bothe Cryste and hys apostles, haue shewed vs that there is purgatory. And that haue they she­wed vs not onely by mouth, whyche were suffycyent to faythfull folke / but by the scrypture to. And yet bothe twayne be not inough to Tyndale. For hys felowes and he wyll not vnderstande those places of scrypture, but after theyr owne fasshyon.

And therfore now, where as he calleth as vnprofytable [...] the so [...]le as smoke to sore eyes, all thynges that be not [Page ccxxxviii] eyther wryten in scrypture or deduced theruppon / & put the A ensamples of the assumpcyon of our ladye and purgatory: he muste adde vnto them as many thynges mo as hym selfe putteth in the same case. And so therby ye se y ^t he sayth now, that a chylde to be confermed or to be crystened eyther, yf yt be crystened in latyne / or a man to shryue hym selfe of his synnys, or to do penaūce, or to do any good workes toward heuen warde, or to be aneled, or to pray to sayntes, or to by­leue in the holy sacrament of the aulter, the blessed body and blood of Cryste, or to do any honoure vnto yt: all these thynges be by Tyndale as profytable for the soule, as smoke is for sore eyes. But I praye god that the sore eyes of hys sycke soule maye ones loke vppe better / leste he fy­nally fall in to the foule smoke of hell, where he shall neuer se after. B

Tyndale.

And that the apostles shold teache aught by mouth, that they wold not write / I pray you for what purpose.

More.

Now haue ye herd all redy by what hygh reasons Tyn­dale hath prouyd you the thynge that he affermeth / that ys to wyt that the apostles wrote and lefte in wrytynge euery thynge that is of necessyte for the soule, eyther to be done or to be byleued.

But syth he seeth hym selfe, that in his reasons for hys owne parte there is so ly [...]e pyth / & that he can neuer proue nor no man ellys, the thynges that Tyndale muste proue or ellys proue hym self a fole, for fallynge from the fayth of Crystes chyrce / that is to say y ^• the apostles left all such ne­cessarye C poyntes of the fayth in wrytynge: he leueth of now his parte hym selfe, & asketh vs why they left aught vnwriten as though if I that neuer was of counsayle with them, can not tell vnto Tyndale playnely wherfore and why the apostles left aught vnwrytē, he myght theruppon conclude that they wrote all to gether. Is not this a wyse and a worshyppefull reason?

Thys maner is mych lyke as Tyndale wolde afferme y ^t all the lawes of England be wryten, and what so euer were vnwryten were no law. And when he hadde longe wrestled therwyth and coulde not proue it / wolde then aske me, hath the realme of Englande any lawes that he not wryten [...] to [Page ccxxxix] A what purpose I praye you sholde they be lefte vnwryten. And then yf I coulde not gyue hym an answere therto, such as coude content hym: he myghte therfore wyth good rea­son take hys parte for proued / and well and wourshypfully conclude that all that euer are vnwryten are no lawes. But now in my name he answereth hys questyon / and then con­futeth that answere.

Tyndale.

Bycause they sholde not come to the handes of the hethen for mokkynge sayth mayster More. I praye you what thynge more to be mokked of the hethen / coude they teache, then the resurreccyon, and that Cryste was god and man and dyed betwene two theues, and for his deths sake all that repente and by­leue therin sholde haue theyr synnes forgyuen them. ye and yf the apostles vnderstode therby as we do / what madder thyng vnto hethen people coude they B haue taught, then that brede is Crystes body and wyne his bloude. And yet all these thynges they wrote. And agayne purgatory, confessyon in the eare, pe­naūce and satysfaccyon for synne to godwarde, with holy dedes and prayenge to sayntes with suche lyke / as dome sacramentes and ceremonyes: are maruelouse agreable vnto the superstycyon of the hethen people / so that they neded not to abstayne from wrytynge of them, for feare lest the hethen sholde haue mocked them.

More.

Thys was an happy happe for mayster Tyndale, that it happed mayster More wyth the layenge of suche a slender cause, to mynyster mayster Tyndale so mych pleasaunt mater of replycacyon. For yf I had not happed to haue sayed that the apostles forbare the wrytynge of some thynges, for estewynge of infydeles mokkynge: Tyndale had had now C no more to saye, but had l [...]te of wyth shame inough / where as now by thys poynt he hath occasyon of mych mater and wynneth mych wourshyppe therwyth.

But now yf I wolde be content to saye, that I was ouer seen in so sayenge / and that I can not defende my wordes y ^t they forbare to wryte any maner thyng for any such cause / [...]nd that also I can not tell why nor for what cause the apo­les wrote some necessary thynges, and lefte some necessary [...]nges vnwryten / no more then I can tell why that euery e [...]angelyste wryteth many thynges that hys felowes haue, and yet l [...]eth out some as greate and as necessary as some that h [...] w [...]h in: yf I wolde for Tyndales pleasure saye thys ( [...]h [...]c [...] y [...] I dyd I neded not mych to force, for any greate ha [...] that my parte could take therby / for y ^• thynge [Page ccxl] were in it selfe neuer the lesse trewe that the apostles so dyd A in dede, though I coude not tell why) then hadde I taken away quyte all Tyndales pleasure in his present bablyng, and lefte hym onely to those reasons that he hath layed be­fore / in all whych he is as ye se to shamefully confounded.

But yet yf it lyke you good readers to rede myn owne wordes as I wrote thē, which ye shall fynde in the fyrst boke of my dyaloge the .xxv. chapyter: there shall ye perceyue it / y ^t it is not fully so farre from all reason, as Tyndale wolde haue it seme. For I shew there that the apostles dyd more playnely speke, and more opēly declared, many thinges by mouth amonge the crysten folke, bycause theyr audyence was more mete whyle they were onely amonge them selfe / then they dyd by theyr wrytynge, whyche myghte percase come in to the handes of hethen men, that wold laugh some B such thynges to scorne. Now cometh Tyndale and sheweth that thys is fondely sayed, syth the apostles letted not to wryte the thynge that the hethen wolde moste mokke of all / and that purgatory and the sacramentes were lest lykely to be mokked amonge them, for that they were most agreable vnto theyr owne superstycyon. But now lest he sholde haue combred hym selfe somwhat wyth the answere, and haue defaced therwyth the bewtye of hys owne tale: he leueth out here all suche thynges as I layd in that place for the profe. How be it those thynges wyll yet [...] I truste serue me suffy [...]y­entely agaynste all Tyndales scoffes. Amonge whyche yet where he weneth that he speketh wyseste / he helpeth me so in what hym selfe euyn here vnware. For fyrste though I coude not tell why they wrote somwhat that the hethen men C wyll mokke, & yet leue out somwhat lest they sholde mokke / though I coude not I saye tell why they dyd thys: yet is it inough yf I proue that they so dyd in dede. For the profe wherof I maye laye and so dyd in my dyaloge (whych Tindale here leueth out) that not onely saynt Peter so dy [...], [...] y ^e seconde chapyter of the actys, Actuum. 2 where he forba [...]e [...]o call C [...]y [...]t god lest it sholde haue hyndred the fayth in that audyen [...]/but that our sauyour dyd y ^e same hym selfe in the many [...] preachynge of hys godhed, a [...] app [...]reth in the [...] c [...]apyte [...] of saint Iohn̄. Now syth ye se th [...]t thus th [...] dy [...] in dede / wh [...] nedeth me to ca [...]e for all Tyndales why [...]s [...] they [...] bare thys where was lesse cause to [...]ere (and wh [...] the [...] [...] thys where was more cause to fere: syth he can [...] [Page ccxli] A but that they so dyd, am I bounden to gyue the rekenynge why and wherfore they so dyd? This dare I be bolde to say / y ^t they neuer taught thynge of dyffyculte be wrytynge, but that they taught yt more playnely by mouth / by whych explanacyons by mouth, the people cam into the vndouted trouth and fayth of the mater, were the wrytynge neuer so full of doute.

For the profe wherof / Tyndale hath here as I sayed by­fore, by reason of his heresye wyth false vnderstandynge of saynt Paule / brought forth a ryght good sample. For thus he sayeth.

Tyndale.

ye and yf the apostles vnderstode therby as we do / what madder thyng vnto the hethen people coulde they haue taught, then that brede is Crystes bod [...]e B and wyne his blood / and yet all these thynges they wrote.

More.

Lo here ye se y ^t Tyndale hym selfe dowteth vppon saynt Poules wordes, whyther he ment as we do / whyche yet meane not as Tyndale doth, that brede is Crystes bodye and wyne his blood, so that y ^e brede and wyne styll remayne as Tyndale sayeth that the apostles wryte / but that the brede & wyne is conuerted and chaunged into Crystes body and blood / and that by what wordes so euer the apostles wryte yt, yet y ^t is the thynge that they meane / & that all be yt that they haue wryten yt playne inough in scrypture, yet bothe Cryste and they wyth many wordes so clerely dyd declare yt by mouth, that in that artycle neyther then nor neuer after was there any doute arose, tyll y ^t these heretykes C here now of late yeres make dowtes vppon the wrytynge, contrary to the declaracyon made by Cryste and his apo­stles, and well and surely writē in mennys hartes fourtene hundred yere byfore. Such parell is yt lo to fall frō the vn­douted fayth vnto the dyspycyons of the scrypture, whyche by the fayth is vnderstanden as the scrypture yt selfe. For lykewyse as yt sayth playnely, scrutamini scripturas, serche ye in scrypture: so sayth yt as playnely, nisi credideritis non intelligetis, but if ye byleue ye shall not vnderstande. And here ye se that though Tyndale wyll not cōfesse that the apostles lefte any thyng [...] vnwryten, nor that they wrote any thynge the more coue [...] [...]or the mokkynge of the Hethen / yet he sayth hym selfe that t [...]e apostle wrote so that men myght doute what they me [...] A [...]d that I [...]are well say y ^t in the crysten flokke, [Page ccxlii] they presently so farreforth declared yt / y ^t they lefte no such A doute therin. And also dare I say that they taught thinges by mouth whyche they wrote not / parte for the cause afore sayde, parte for that yt neded not / and thys I saye boldely. For though Tyndale saye nay: [...]. Corinth. 11. yet saynt Poule sayed yes hym selfe, when he wrote vnto the Corinthianes, caetera quum venero ipse disponam: the other thynges I wyll dyspose or order when I come my selfe.

But the sacramentes so sore greue Tyndales sore yien, that he may not abyde the syght of them / & therfore he goth on agaynste them styll.

Tyndale.

More ouer what is yt that the apostles taught by mouth and durst not write, the sacramentes. As for baptyme and the sacrament of the body and blood of Cryste, they wrote / and yt is expressed what is sygnyfyed by them. And also B all the ceremonyes and sacramentes that were from Adam to Cryste hadde sygnifycacyons / and all that are made mencyon of in the new testament. Wherfore in as mych as the sacramentes of the old testament ha [...]e sygnyfycacyons / and in as mych as the sacramentes of the new testament (of whyche mencyo [...] is made that they were delyuered vnto vs by the very Apostles at Crystes cō maundement) haue also sygnifycacyons / and in as mych as the offyce of an apostle is to edefye in Cryste / and in as mych as diuyne ceremonye edefyeth not, but hurteth all to gether (for yf yt preache not vnto me, then I can not but put confydence therin, that the dede yt selfe iustyfyeth me / whyche is the denyenge of Crystes blood) and in as mych as no mencyon is made of them as well as of other / ner is knowen what is ment by thē: therfore yt appereth that thapostles taught them not, but that they be the false marchandyce of wylye hypocrytes.

More. C

If a man rede ouer these wordes and examine them not / he maye be sone abused. But who so well way them, and con­syder euery parte / shall sone perceyue that this processe ys fylled vppe wyth malyce, falsed, and foly. Fyrste he wolde that bycause the apostles haue writen the two sacramentes, that is to wyt baptysme & the sacramēt of the auter, and the sygnyfycacyons of them / and of the tother fyue as he sayth, haue not wryten: he wolde I saye therfore that we sholde take yt as proued, that the other [...]yue were no dyuine sacra­mentes, nor delyuered to the chyrche by Cryste nor hys ap [...] stles. Now is this argumen [...] though his anteceden [...] were trew / yet as wysely concluded, as this is of the lawes of [...] glande: Men haue wrytē some / ergo they haue w [...]ten a [...]

[Page ccxliii] A By the tytle of his chapyter he taketh in hande to proue, that the apostles haue lefte no necessary thynge vnwryten. And now he proueth yt, by that that they haue wrytē some. For of his reason, ye & of all his reasons in conclu [...]yon this is the hole somme. whyche somme what effecte yt hath eue­ry fole may se / but yf Tyndale proue me farther that the a­postles promysed that they wolde wryte all / wherof saynte Iohn̄ professeth playne the contrarye, and so dothe saynte Poule to.

Now yet in this reason of his as faynte and as feble as yt is, he is fayne to psuppose false. For he presupposeth that of any of the remanaūt / the apostles haue not writen. whych is so playne false, that yf there were any shame in hym, he myght not for shame say yt. Of cōfyrmacyon wryteth saynt B Luke in the actes playnely / & saynte Poule to the Hebrues as playnely. A [...]. 8. He [...]re. 6. [...]. [...]. 1. Tim [...]. 4. [...]. 5. M [...]rc. [...]. Of matrimony and presthed, saynt Poule ma­nyfestly / the tone to the Ephesyes, the tother to Timothe. Anelynge, saynt Iames, and saynt Marke in the gospell also. And of penaunce and the partes thereof, euery man all moste in euery parte of scrypture. And this thynge Tyndale so well knoweth / and that yt hath bene so often so playnely proued vnto them, that they coude neuer yet nor neuer shall whyle they lyue, be able to wythstande yt, neyther wyth scrypture nor wyth reason, but wyth raylynge and bablynge. And therfore as I say this knoweth Tyndale so well, that yt is more the [...] shame for hym now so to wryte, as though the apostles hadde neuer wryten of them. whyche yf they neuer had done in dede / yet were the sacramētes sure inough, C whych hange vppon god [...]es worde as sure as all theyr wrytynge / and of whych vnwryten worde we be certayne & sure by the selfe same meanes, by whyche we knowe theyr bokes for holy wrytynge / that is to wyt, by the relacyon of the catholyque chyrche of Cryste, and by the spiryte of god that ledeth the chyrche in to the bylyefe of the trouth / & ledeth eue­ry well wyllynge person a parte / into the byleuynge of the catholyque chyrch, & by the belyuyng of the chyrch, into the ryght bylyefe of euery necessary trouth / & by the groundes therof fyrste hadde, into the ryght vnderstandynge of holy scrypture / whereby the fayth byfore had, is more and more fastely confe [...]med / and wyth out which fayth byfore hadde, the wyt of [...]an myght abuse the scrypture to the occasyon of infydelyte and [...]nfayth [...]ullnesse.

[Page ccxliiii]But yet bycause I wolde be loth that Tyndale myght A say that I mysse take hym in any thyng / and then grounde my reason agaynste hym vppon my owne mysse takynge of his wordes: I wyll yet a lytle examyne his wordes better / when he sayth that the remanaunt of the sacramētes bysyde baptysme and the sacrament of the auter, be no profytable sacramentes, nor haue no promyse of grace, bycause the a­postles wrote not of any of them as they dyd of the tother twayne. I wolde wyt of Tyndale whyther he meane that of any of the tother fyue, the apostels wrote nothyng at all / or ellys that they wrote not of any grace promised vnto any of them / or ellys y ^t of none of them the apostles wrote any proper sygnyfycacyons of theyr outwarde sygnes / as saynt Poule dyd of baptysme when he resembled yt vnto Crystes beryeng and resurreccyon / and of the sacrament of the au­ter, B when he teacheth the Corynthyes that one lofe is made of many graynes of corne, and the wyne of many grapes, and that crysten men sholde in lykewyse beyng many in person, be made one in loue and concorde, and as it were, made all one bodye in and wyth our sauyour Cryste hym selfe. If he meane the fyrste way / that is to wyt that yf any of y ^e sayd fyue sacramētes the apostle wrote nothyng at all / then shall he shew hym selfe to shamelesse. For y ^e wordes be clere both of confyrmacyon, presthed, anelynge, and bothe the other twayne. If he meane of the secūde manner / his [...]ayeng shall be as shamelesse as in the fyrste. For yt is euydent in all the thre byfore remembred, that the apostles wryte of grace ge­uen wyth the puttynge vppon of the handes. And therein when Tyndale seketh an euasyon in his boke of obedyēce / C sayenge that the puttyng of the handes was but a maner of menne in that co [...]tre, as yt was to stretche oute the arme in prechynge, or to laye an hande vppon a boyes hed & call hym good sonne / this euasyon is no [...]e euasyō. For in y ^e syxte chapyter of saynt Poule vnto the Hebrewes / saynte Poule wolde not haue made so seryouse & ernest remembraūce of y ^e puttynge vppon of the handes (whyche he reherseth as er­nestly as baptysme) yf yt were but such custumable maner that men maye do and lyue vndone as they lyste. Nor yf yt were but suche a thynge / he wolde not so expressely saye to Tymothe, that he had grace geuen v [...]to hym by y ^• pu [...]yng of his handes vppon hym. These places of scryptu [...] and many mo to / be for this mater so playne agaynste T [...]ndale, [Page ccxlv] A and so [...]uydent / that when he wrestleth with them and wold fayne scape away wyth some gay glose of his owne diuyse: he fareth lyke a butter flye fallē on a lyme twygge, whych y ^• more yt stryueth and flotereth, euer the faster yt hangeth.

Now yf he meane in the thyrd fasshyon / that is to wytte that the apostles of those fyue sacramentes, do not besyde y ^e comen sygnyfycacyon of grace, wryte any specyall and pro­per sygnyfycacyons of the outwarde tokens, to whyche sy­gnyfycacyons the same outwarde tokens hadde suche re­semblans and lykenesse that they were therfore appropred vnto them / as water in baptysme hath by y ^e wessynge of bo­dye a resemblauns vnto the clensynge of the soule, yf Tyndale meane in this manner as yt semeth that he dothe (for when Luther and he and all the sorte of them: hadde longe B labored agaynste the blessed sacramentes, and hadde fyrste assayed to saye that fyue of them were not in scrypture spo­ken of at all / and whan that wolde not be bydden by, then y ^t there was at the leste wyse no grace promysed wyth them / when they se them selfe shamfully conuycted and reproued in that poynte to, then fell they fynally to the thyrde poynt / and wolde not wythstandynge that the scrypture make mencyon of them / & of grace also graunted wyth them / yet wold the wise mē make vs so madde as to take thē all for nought, but yf we fynde in scrypture what other specyall sygnyfycacyon euery outwarde token hath / and preache that sygnyfycacyons to the people, as the specyall thynge and the hole effecte of the sacramēt lettyng the grace go by / whych these men wolde were clene forgoten, & in no wyse byleued. But C where as in all theyr wry [...]ynges they rayle vppon allego­ryes, & crye out vppon such holy doctours as preache them: yet the holy sacramentes selfe they wolde shold serue for al­legoryes onely and for nothynge ellys)

Now then I saye syth Tyndale meaneth thys wyse and therfore sayth in his wordes afore remembred, that other­wyse preached they do no good but hurte all to gether / for yt maketh he sayeth the audyence to put confydence therin, that the dede yt selfe iustyfyeth a man, whyche is the deny­enge of Cristes blood / syth Tyndale I saye sayeth thus: I wolde wyt of Tyndale whether the sacramentes and the ceremony [...]s of the olde law were by god prouyded to be well, and with theyr profyte delyuered & taught by M [...]yses vn­to the Iewes. I thynke [...]t Tyndale wyll not be so madde [Page ccxlvi] to say, y ^t god dyd by Moyses teche them to serue hym wyth A those sacramētes, sacryfyces, & ceremonyes, dyspleasaūt to hym selfe, thankles toward them selfe, & also to theyr hurte. wherfore yf he haue eyther wytte or grace / he muste nedys graūte & agre, y ^t they were by Moises taught vnto y ^e iewes, very well and agreable to goddys pleasure & theyr welthe. But then say I that those specyall and proper sygnyfycacyons of euery sacrament, sacryfyce, and ceremonye were not taught them / nor they vnderstode them not: wherfore it fo­loweth that Tyndale sayeth false / in that he sayth that the knowledge of them was so necessary for the soule helthe / y ^t wythout that knowledge the vse of them muste nedes be noyfull and not lawfull vnto them. For but yf Tyndale teche false in thys / god had taught hys people in the begynnynge to serue hym wyth damnable ceremonyes hym selfe. B

Now yf Tyndale wyll at thys clappe turne hys cheke a syde / and say that bycause that ellys all theyr seruyce to god done wyth those sacramentes and ceremonyes hadde bene dampnable / therfore it app [...]reth well that all the sygnyfy­caciōs of them were taught them / and so the minor of myne arguēmt false: yet in turnynge the to cheke for me, he tour­neth the tother very fayre to me / so that he wyll haue a clap on the tone cheke or the tother make what skyfte he can.

For then say I thys vnto hym, that yf the knowledge of all these sygnyfycacions was so necessary to them that with out that knowlege, the doynge of those thynges whyche without synne they myghte not leue vndone, were synne as ofte as they dyd them / and that therfore lest we sholde be so wretched to wene god had on [...]ue [...]y syde so bywrapped hys C people in synne hym selfe, by hys owne specyall prouysyon, y ^t they coude not by no meane escape: we muste nedys per­ceyue that god caused thē to be by Moyses taught all those sygnyfycacyons. Then say I that syth they were not wrytē vnto them in the scrypture, they were yf Tyndale tolde vs trew taughte them but onely by mouth / and so fro mouth to mouth taught and contynued amonge them, tyll men by theyr foly and slougth fell to forge [...] them or lytell to force of them, and then to not byleue them as these heretyques fare by the ryght fayth at thy [...] d [...]ye.

And then saye I that therup [...]on [...] it very well foloweth ferther / that Tyndale sayeng that M [...]yses receyu [...] all [...] cessary thynges in wrytynge, sayed very false & [...] [Page ccxlvii] A fole / for the knowlege and vnderstandynge of those sygny­fycacyons of all theyr sacryfyces and ceremonyes, he confesseth to be necessary vppon parell of theyr soulys, and yet he confesseth that they were not wryten in the scrypture.

And yf Tyndale wene to wry asyde and skape, by that he sayth that those sacramentes & ceremonyes serued them for bookes / & that they [...]ed all the sygnyfycacyons in them as in bookes: I aske hym whyther the ceremonyes were tokens so lyke the sygnyfycacyons, that they were able to teche the sygnyfycacyons, and kepe them by the beholdyng of the ceremonyes or not. If they were / they had not ben forgotten. If they were not, and yet the sygnyfycacyons so ne­cessary / then yet agayne was not euery thynge necessary de­lyuered Moyses in wrytynge.

B But lettyng Tyndale with his foly passe / the trouth is y ^t the iewes had necessary thynges taught them besyde y ^e wrytynge / & had an expectacyon of Cryst and of redempcyon by hym before y ^e law wryten / & in that tyme, and after, and the iewes loke for it yet / & they knowe y ^t wythout hym all theyr sacramētes coude not for theyr fynall saluacyō serue them. But when they began lytell & lytell to fall from that fayth / and began to truste in the law & the [...]orkes of y ^e law alone / leuynge of thys poynt of fayth which was of the law, sacra­mentes & ceremonyes, and all theyr bodyly workes y ^e soule: then went they wronge. And y ^t is [...]he thynge whiche saynt Poule so sore reproueth, in theyr t [...]ust & cōfydence to be sa­ued by the workes of the law / where as yf they had not lefte of the force & strength of fayth / both workes of y ^e law, and y ^e C ceremonyes to, had stande them in [...]tede of heuen. And ther­fore thys nothyng toucheth the chyrch of Cryste when they put truste in the sacramentes / for they do it not wythout the fayth that all the force and strength of them cometh of Crystes passy [...]n / for thys they beleue, and thys they teche.

And it is no dowte but y ^t the iewes neuer knew y ^e specyall sygnyfycacyōs of all theyr sacramentes, sacryfyces, & cere­monyes, other then grace & remyssyon of synnes, or perad­uentu [...] y ^t they were fygures & tokēs of thynges that shold fall not yet perceyued by them / as we know our sacramen­tes [...] sygnes of grace. And it is vndowted, y ^t both they & we [...]hich in fay [...]h, hope, & che [...]yte, do any such thyng as god [...] & [...] such fashyon as he byd­deth v [...]/all though we know [...] not why he wyll be serued in [Page ccxlviii] suche wyse, no more then Abraam knew why god bad hym A to serue hym wyth the sacryfysynge of hys owne sonne: yet is that doynge of that dede done in that wyse, pleasaunt & acceptable to god, and profyte to mānes soule / what so euer Tyndale tell vs, and hys mayster Martine to, & frere Hus­kyn also, and take theyr wyse wyues wyth them. And ther­fore all thys tale of Tyndale agaynst the sacrament / is not worth the leste fether of a wylde gose wynge.

But yet consyder one thynge by the way, y ^t ye mysse take hym not, nor be not by a fayre word ledde out of your way. He calleth the sacrament of the auter the sacrament of the bodye & blode of Cryste / in which wordes he calleth it well, but yet meaneth he not so well therby as good crysten men do, nor as hym selfe wolde seme to do. For he meaneth not that there is the very body & blode of Cryst in dede, though B he saye there is the sacrament therof. For by that meaneth he nothynge ellys, but onely a bare sygne, and token, and a memoryall therof.

For the great heretyke Thorpe in his examynacyon, calleth the sacrament a ryght; and by the same name that Tyndale now doth / so that [...] man wold at the fyrst heryng fynd no faute therin, but mysse take hym for a good crysten man. But afterward he declareth hym selfe well and clerely, that he meaneth lyke a naughty heretyke / as Tyndale doth also in sondry places of his boke. For he saith y ^e sacramēt, sygne, and token, be but thre names of one thynge / and that the sacrament of the auter is very brede styll. And he mokketh at them that teache it to be the very body of our sauyour hym selfe / and he is woode wyth them that do it any honour. C

And so in this poynt concernynge the blessed sacrament of the auter, Tyndale is yet a mych more heretyke then Lu­ther is hym selfe in hys wrytynge / all though in dede it ap­pereth well that he ment as mych in the begynn [...]ng, tyll he wythdrew hym selfe for enuye of other, that hasted forward and set forth that heresye byfore hym.

And of trouth I am ryght credebly enformed by a very vertuouse man, whom god hath of his goodnesse illumined & called home agayn, out of y ^e darke Egypte of theyr blynd heresyes / that at suche tyme as frere Barons and Tyndale fyrste mette & talked to gether beyonde the see, after that he fledde out of the f [...]eres where he was enioyned to [...] his penaunce after he hadde borne his fagot; Ty [...]dale [...]nd [Page ccxlix] A he were of sondrye sectes. For frere Barons was of zwyn­glius secte agaynste the sacrament of the auter, byleuynge that it is nothynge but bare brede. But Tyndale was yet at that tyme not fully fallen so farre in y ^t poynt / but though he were badde inough bysyde, was yet not cōtent with frere Barons for the holdynge of that heresye. But wythin a whyle after (as he that is fallyng is sone put ouer) the frere made the fole mad out ryght, and brought hym blyndfelde downe into the depeste dongeon of that deuylysshe heresye / wherin he sytteth now as faste bounden in the chayre of pe­stylence, wyth the chayne of pertynacyte, as any of hys vn­happy felowes. And this I geue you knowledge of / bycause I wolde not in any wyse that ye were deceyued wyth hym, where he speketh well & yet meaneth nought. But now lette B vs yet farther consyder well hys wordes. Thus he sayth.

Tyndale.

All the ceremonyes and sacramentes that were from Adam to Cryste, hadde sygnyfycacyons / and all that are made mencyon of in the new testament.

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Uppon this he concludeth after, that except baptysme & the sacrament of the auter / all the remanaunt be no trewe sacramentes for lakke of sygnifycacyons. But ere he can so conclude / he muste fyrste proue, not onely that all the sacramentes and ceremonyes from Adam to Cryste hadde sygnyfycacyons / but also that all those sygnyfycacyons were thē to the people knowen and vnderstanden. For ellys though god dyd sette thynges to sygnyfye and to be done: yet yf he commaunded them to do it and tolde them not the sygnyfycacyons, C but wolde leue them to be shewed and dysclosed at suche tyme afterwarde as it sholde lyke hym selfe / it was no synne for them in the meane whyle to do the thynges that god bode them do / but greate meryte to them, though they vnderstode not what the thynges sygnyfyed that they dyd / no more then my [...]eruaunt that can no more but wryte, is worthy rebuke and blame in the wrytynge of a latyn booke at my byddynge, wherof he woteth not what any one worde meaneth. Now that all the sygnyfycacyons, of all the sacramentes and ceremonyes from Adam to Cryste, were vnderstanden of the people: that shall not Tyndale proue me, though he shuld lyue as many yeres as were betwene y ^e creacyō of Adam / & the [...]rth of Cryst. And therfore as many yeres must he nedes haue also [...] ere euer h [...] make hys cōclusion [Page ccl] folow and hys argument good. For yf god gaue them cere­monyes A and sacramētes, wherof he gaue them not the syg­nyfycacyons: then so myghte he lykewyse gyue vs yf it so please hym to do. And farther yf they by the doynge of those not vnderstanden ceremonyes and sacramentes in obedy­ence of his byddynge, dyd not synne, but deserued thanke / all suche I saye as dyd them in dew fayth of saluacyon by Cryste that was to come: then maye we also by the obser­uynge of sacramentes and ceremonyes, hauyng some syg­nyfycacyons farther then we perceyue (for one generall syg­nyfycacyon of them all we knowe, that they be all good to­kens and sygnyfycacyons of grace, in that they be taughte by god and hys spyryte that in such thynges doth instructe hys chyrche) we maye lykewyse I saye obserue them wyth­out synne, and not wythout thanke of god. And so Tyndales B argument goth to grounde quyte / all though our sacra­mentes & ceremonyes were not good in dede. For they may be good for any reason that he maketh to the contrarye.

But now that they be good in dede, and delyuered vnto Crystes catholyke chyrche by hym selfe and hys holy spy­tyte sent by hym selfe to dwell therin, to teache it all necessarye trouth, and therby necessaryly to preserue it from all damnable vntreuth, false bylyefe, and idolatrye (as the sa­cramentes & ceremonyes were yf they were false): thys haue I proued to Tyndale ofter I trow thē fyftene tymes / to whyche in fyftene hundred yere he shall I am sure neuer make one good answere.

Tyndale.

Wherfore in as mych as the sacramentes of the olde testament haue sygnyfy­cacyons / and C in as mych as the sacramentes of the new testament (of whyche mencyon is made that they were delyuered vnto vs by the very apostles at Crystes commaundement) haue also sygnyfycacyons / and in as mych as the offyce of an apostle is to edyfye in Cryste / and in as mych as a [...] cere­monye edyfyeth not, but hurtet [...] all to gether (for yf yt preache not vnto me, then I can not but put confydence therin that the dede yt selfe iustyfyeth me / whyche is the denyenge of Crystes blood) and [...] as mych as no [...]e [...]cyon is made of them as well as of other, nor is knowen what is me [...] of them ther­fore yt apereth that the apostles taug [...]t them not / but that they be the [...] marchaundyse of wylye hypocrytes.

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He repeteth here & hepeth vppe all hys proues together, whych proues I haue repreued pece mete all to gether / and [Page ccli] A so his conclusyon whych he deduceth vppon them, ys all re­dye reproued all to gether. But yet for his double confusy­on can I not forbere to touche one pece agayne, whyche in his repeticyon here he semeth to sette out more open & more clerely to declare.

This pece is, where he sayeth that all the sacramentes of the new testamente haue sygnyfycacyons also / and then ex­powneth whych all he meaneth / sayeng all of which mency­on is made that they were delyuered vnto vs by the very a­postles at Crystes commaundement.

It is to me more then wonder what this mā meaneth. Fyrst yt muste nedes be that he accompteth amonge suche as he sayeth, there is no mencyon made of theyr delyuery by the very apostles, all those fyue whyche he so often and so fully B refuseth to take for sacramentes / that ys to wyt confyrma­cyon, penaunce, wedloke, holy order, and anelynge. For he sayth alwaye that the tother two, that is baptysine and the sacrament of the auter haue sygnyfycacyons, and that these haue none / and by thys reason he wolde now conclude that onely those two be very sacramentes, and none of all these fyue.

But now his wordes wyll rather proue that these fyue haue sygnyfycacyons to. For he sayth that all haue sygnyfycacyons, wherof mencion is made that they were delyuered vnto vs by the very apostles. wherfore Tyndale doth here eyther confesse that these fyue haue sygnyfycacyons also / & then confesseth his wordes false, by whych he so often sayth they be no sacramentes, bycause they haue no sygnyfycacyons / for C lakke, wherof he calleth them dumme ceremonies: or ellys he sayeth here, that there is no mencyon made that any of these fyue were delyuered vs by y ^e very apostles / and then is he therin to playnely proued false. For euery man seeth that there is none of all these fyue, but that as I haue often shewed, mencion is made of them by the euāgelystes, A [...]t. 8. Tim [...]o [...].4. Ephes. 5. Iac [...]. 5. Marc. 6. and the other of the apostles / yf they be the very apostles whom he and we bothe call the apostles, saynte Peter, saynte Poule, saynte Iamys, and theyr felowes. So that I wonder what the madde man meaneth to speke in thys mater so [...]olempnly, and handle yt so madly. For when they make mencyon of them: the wyse man maye well wyt that they dyd not bygynne by any wyly fo [...]e after / but by Cryste hym selfe that taught those thynges to them, and they forth [Page cclii] to hys chyrche. A

Tyndale.

And therto presthed was in the tyme of the apostles an offyce / whyche yf they wolde do truely it wolde more profyte then all the sacramentes of the worlde.

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Is not here a nother madde reason? Hys purpose is to proue that the apostles lefte no necessary thynge vnwryten / and Tyndale proueth it thus. In the apostles tyme preste­hed was an offyce / whych yf the prestes wolde do it truely, wolde more profyte then all the sacramentes in the worlde. Now ye wote well his conclusyon must nedys be thys: And therfore it foloweth that y ^e apostles lefte no necessary thyng vnwryten [...] ys not thys a madde concluded argument. And yet are there in hys wordes mo folyes then one besyde. For graunted that presthed was an offyce / yet myghte that offy­cer B be consecrated wyth a sacrament, and so was in dede. And a parte of hys offyce was also to mynyster the sacramē ­tes to the people.

Now yf that offyce well occupyed, were more profytable then all the sacramentes besydes: what letteth y ^t the other sacramentes to be good and necessary to saluacyon. were thys a wyse argument? Better is it to forbere synne then to do penaunce for synne / ergo to do penaunce for synne is not necessary. Now after thys goodly argument goeth he to a­nother as gay, and sayth.

Tyndale.

And agayne, Goddys holynesses stryue not one agaynste a nother, nor defyle one a nother. Theyr sacramentes defyle one a nother. For wedlocke defyleth presthed, more then horedome, thefte, mur [...]er, or any synne agaynst nature. C

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Here is but one argument, and that but shorte / but here be two lyes longe & lowde inough. For fyrst where he groū ­deth hym selfe vppon thys, That goddes holynesses stryue not one agaynst another, nor defyle one another: he sayeth playne false and agaynst holy scrypture quyte. For the be­ryenge of dede men, euer was and is an holy dede and well alowed wyth god / and yet wolde he not suffer the bys [...]hoppe to bery any man, and though it were hys father. And also yf Tyndale wyll abyde by thys: eyther he muste say that per­petuall vyrgynyte is nought and not holy, cōtrary to saynt Poule and our sauyour hym selfe, who take it and teche it for holy and preferre it before wedloke wyth hys w [...]rke / or [Page ccliii] A ellys he must say that wedlokke with hys worke is nought and not holy, whyche god hym selfe bothe blessed and com­maunded in paradyse / and whyche holy scrypture commendeth, where it sayth that wedlokke is honorable where the bedde is vndefyled wyth auowtry. And then must he cōfesse also that hys owne mayster Marten Luther (yf the worke of wedlokke be fowle and synfull) hath synfully double de­fyled hym selfe wyth weddynge of his nonne. Or elles fy­nally muste he confesse hym selfe for a fole, in sayenge that goddys holynesse stryue not one agaynst another / but yf he saue hym selfe and saye, that perpetuall vyrgynite and the worke of wedlokke, be not repugnaunt the tone to y ^• tother / and then he shall not nede to confesse hym sel [...]e a fole, for the hole worlde wyll confesse it for hym.

B Now maketh he another ly / where he sayth that wedlok defyleth prestehed more then horedome, thefte, murder, or any synne agaynst nature. For yf he say this as of hym self / it is a folysshe lye. But yf he saye it as he doeth in the person of the catholyke chyrche, to make men byleue that y ^e chyrche techeth so: then is it a very malycyouselye. For it is not trew, nor the chyrche techeth not so. For the chyrche playnly techeth that horedome, thefte, murder, and synne agaynste nature, coude neuer be lawfull neyther to preste nor lay mā. But the chyrche bothe knoweth and confesseth, that wedlok and prestehed be not repugnaunt but compatyble of theyr nature / and that wedded men haue ben made prestes and kepte styll theyr wyues. But syth perpetuall chastyte and y ^• forberynge of the worke of wedlokke, is more acceptable to C god then the worke of wedlokke in matrymony: therfore y ^• chyrche taketh none to be prestes but suche as promyse and professe neuer to be maryed, but kepe perpetuall chastyte. And then doth maryage after y ^• promyse made, not by reasō of the presthed taken vppon them, but by reason of the pro­myse made vnto god and broken: defyle the preste, I wyll not dyspute whyther as mych as thefte, murder, or y ^• synne agaynst nature / but I am sure as mych as horedome doth. For syth the maryage is no maryage / it is but horedome it selfe. And I am sure also that it defyleth the preste more then dowble and treble horedome / syth that hys maryage [...]eynge as it is vnlawfull, and therby none other but hore­dome, doth openly rebuke and shame two sacramētes there at ones, y ^t is both presthed & matrimony / & besydes that not [Page ccliiii] onely commytteth horedom, but also sayth openly that he A wyl lcommytte horedome / and as a bolde beste and a sha­melesse whoremaster, playnely professeth afore the face of god and all crysten people, that in stede and dyspyght of his professed chastite, he cōmeth there to bynde hym self to sha­melesse perpetuall horedom. And thus good crysten reders ye se, how well this wyse argument serueth hym.

And now putteth he after yt his great solemne questyon, where he fyndeth in scrypture that women may crysten chyldren / whyche ioyneth to his wordes byfore, nere inough in the boke, but in reason as farre of as the scrypture that he layeth therfore, is farre of from y ^e mater / as I haue touched before.

And surely thorow all his boke and almoste euery thyng that he maketh, sometyme the chapyters, sometyme the B paragraphes and reasonynges wythin the chapyter, haue so euyll dependence one towarde a nother / that yt semeth y ^• mater to be gathered by dyuerse folke / and as they come to hym in dyuerse papers, so he wythout order and at auēture patcheth in hys peces nothynge lyke to gether, wyth great sakke semys, and some seme rent bytwene. And in lykewise ioyneth he now the fynall clause of thys chapyter vnto the remanaunte / so that who so consyder what and how many thynges go betwene yt, and the thynge wheruppon he concludeth yt / shall surely wene yt were a poysened stynkynge tayle of some stynkynge serpent that were quyte cutte of, & after layed a syde farte from the poysened body. For this is hys fynall clause and hys hole conclusyon.

Tyndale. C

And fynally though we were sure that god hym selfe hadde geuen vs a sacra­ment what so euer yt were: yet yf the sygnifycacyon were ones loste / we must of necessite eyther seke vppe the sygnyfycacyon, or put some other sygnyfycacyon of goddes worde thereto, what we ought to do or byleue therby, or ellys put yt downe. For yt is impossyble to obserue a sacrament wythout sygnyfycacyon, but to oure damnacyon. If we kepe the fayth purely, and the lawe of loue vndefyled / whyche are the sygnyfycacyons of all ceremonyes: there ys no ieobardye to alter or chaunge the fashyon of the ceremonye, or to putte yt downe yf nede be.

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Lo good readers here ye se finally how well and how w [...] sely, and thereto how vertuousely Tyndale fynysheth th [...]s chapyter. For the whole effecte of all these wordes is in th [...] [Page cclv] A worlde nothynge ellys / but y ^t yf god bydde you do a thynge and he tell you not what he meaneth thereby, and for what cause he wyll haue you do it: ye must nedes leue yt vndone, & bydde hym do it hym selfe. wolde Tyndale (wene you) be well contente wyth hys owne seruaūt, that wolde serue hym of the same fashyō? not do what he byddeth hym tyll he tell hym why he byddeth hym? wold it not haue bycome Adam well when god forbode hym the tre of knowledge, to haue asked god agayne why he dyd so / & saye, tell me god lorde wherfore, and what thou meanest therby, and why sholde I more dye for etynge thereof, then of a nother tre / tell me thys good lorde ere thou go, for ellys be thy bakke turned onys, I wyll ete therof whyther thou wylte or no.

when god taught Moyses the makynge of the taberna­cle, B the temple, & all thynges bylongynge therunto: wold yt not haue done well in Moyses mouth to haue sayed vnto god: Tell me what yt meaneth that thou wylt haue the ta­bernacle made of thys maner, or ellys yt shall lye vnmade for me.

when our sauyour hym selfe sent out hys dyscyples, and bade them in the confyrmacyon of theyr doctryne, lay theyr handes vppon syke folke, and they sholde be hole, and that they sholde anoynt some wyth oyle: wolde yt not (wene ye) haue done very well, that they sholde haue sayd nay, but yf he wolde tell them why laye theyr handes more then speke theyr bare worde, & why anoynt them wyth oyle rather then smere them wyth butter. Surely the deuyll hath made this man madde / he wolde ellys neuer saye as he sayth. For yf it C were impossyble to vse a c [...]remonye but vnto damnacyon, & y ^• obedyence to goddes byddyng be euer more dedely synne, but yf the sygnifycacyon be knowen: then lyued the chosen people of god in the olde law in a straung perplexite. whych what so euer Tyndale say, shall neuer be proued to haue vnderstanden the sygnyfycacyōs of all the ceremonyes / which god expressely commaunded them to fullfyll and obserue / though he wolde not that they sholde wene that the obser­uyng of them wythout fayth and other good workes, shuld suffyse them as Tyndale and Luther saye / that fayth alone shall saue vs wythout good workes / as they sayed of olde, and as he sayeth now wythout sacramentes to. For this ys his fynall conclusyon of all / that yf we kepe the fayth and y ^• law of loue [...]defyled, there is no parell at all to alter and [Page cclvi] chaunge the fashyon of the ceremonyes, & to put thē downe A to / meanyng as yt semeth that yf we kepe the fayth and be­leue wyth Luther that there nedeth no more but fayth / and then therwyth kepe the lawe of loue after Luthers louynge maner, in lodgynge louers freres and nonnes louyngly to gether: then we shall neuer nede to care whether we chaūge or put downe ceremonyes and sacramentes and all.

And surely very soth he sayth. For when we fall ones to be contente wyth that: there wyll, but yf we chaunge that mynde and mende, neyther any ceremony nor any sacramēt serue vs.

And yet yf fayth and loue be as Tyndale here sayth, the sygnyfycacyons of all the ceremonyes: what parell is there to kepe all the ceremonyes with them twayne, wythout any other sygnyfycacyons? And thus by Tyndale hys owne B tale we shall neyther nede to put thē downe, alter, nor chaūg them / where he sayth afore we muste seke the sygnyfycacy­ons agayne, or put downe the ceremonyes vppon payne of damnacyon.

And here haue ye now sene all that euer he sayth, for the profe of the thyng that he hath in this chapiter takē in hāde to proue / that is to wyt that the apostles haue lefte wryten in scrypture all thynges that of necessyte perteyne to y ^e soule helth, both in thynges to be done, & thynges to be byleued. And now perceyue ye perfitely also / y ^• all that euer he sayth, there is not any one thynge that to the profe of his purpose serueth hym worth a rysh.

Here myght I now well leue (ye se well) as for thys mater / syth I haue suffycyently confuted and auoyded clerely C all that Tyndale hath alledged for hys parte in thys chapyter / in whyche he wold proue that y ^e apostles haue lefte wryten in holy scrypture euery thynge necessarye to be byleued or done, for the saluacyon of our soules / and that so fully, that what so euer is not wryten in scrypture, nor deduced theruppon (by whyche deducyng what he meaneth [...] I haue by his owne example shewed you) that thynge is not as he sayth to be byleued nor to be done of necessyte / but mē be at theyr lybertie in all such maner thynge to do yt or do yt not, byleue yt or byleue yt not, or rather in synne to byleue yt or do yt, though all the catholyque chyrche of Cryste both do byleue, and many hundred yeres haue byleued y ^t the thyng is of necessyte to be done or byleued. In whyche mate [...] [...] [...] [Page cclvii] A saye, syth Tyndale hath fayled of his profe, I myght here make an ende / sauynge that I haue though [...] yt conuenyēt for his more vtter confusyon, to brynge in by and by suche thynges, as I fynde writen by hym for his parte in this mater bysyde / that ye maye se wythout farther sekynge for yt, all that he can saye at ones. I shall therfore shew you his answeres to suche thynges, as I in the .xxv. chapyter of y ^e fyrst boke of my dyaloge alledged / for the profe that all necessa­rye thynges were not wryten in scrypture, but some suche onely taught and delyuered vnto the chyrch by mouth. And when ye shall here haue herde Tyndales answeres vnto those thynges: ye shall then the more clerely perceyue how foule a fall he hath in thys mater, vppon whyche the greate parte of all hys heresyes dependeth / and ouer that ye shall B ryght easely iudge what pyth and substaunce is in his boke of answeres, wherwyth he wolde fayne seme clerely to con­fute my dyaloge.

I shewed there in my dialoge by the authorite of saynte Iohn̄ the euāgelyste in y ^e laste chapyter of hys gospell / that all thyng was not wryten. For there he sayth hym selfe, Iohn̄. 21 Many thynges dyd Iesus / whyche yf they were all wryten, the worlde wold not receyue y ^e bokes. To thys answereth Tyndale thus.

Tyndale.

He iugleth. For Iohn̄ meaneth of the myracles whyche Iesus dyd / and not of the necessarye poyntes of the fayth.

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ye se well now that Tyndale well feleth, that syth y ^• euā ­gelystes C dyd not go togyther by appoyntement to wryte theyr gospels / nor when they hadde wryten them conferred theyr bokes togyther, to se whyther euery necessary poynte were wryten in amonge them all / or ellys at that collacyon to put it in some one / as we fynde that saynt Poule had conference wyth Peter and other of the apostles, Galathas. 2, to come and speke of the fayth amonge them, but not to wryte it all out in bokes / but euery euangelyste of occasyō offred vnto hym selfe, as god put in hys mynde and remembraunce, wrote hys owne gospell seuerally by hym selfe, and theyr epystles in lyke wyse / and peraduenture one of them in all theyr ly­ues neuer redde the gospell that the tother wrote: thys I saye beynge thus, excepte that god besyde theyr purpose prouyded [...] amonge them all euery necessary poynte sholde [Page cclviii] be wryten (whyche thynge Tyndale neyther doth nor can A by reason or scrypture proue) ellys yf any of them lefte vnwryten any poynt necessary to be byleued, Tyndale can not saye but that euery of the other apostles myghte do y ^• same / and then hath Tyndale no surety that euery suche thynge was wryten.

And therfore Tyndale feleth full well how nere this place of saynt Iohn̄ prykketh hym / yf in those wordes of saynte Iohn̄ myghte be vnderstanden that he had not wrytē euery necessary poynt of our bylefe.

And therfore to auoyde this pynche / Tyndale sayth that I iugle. For saynte Iohn̄ he sayeth ment onely of Crystes myracles / and not of any necessary poynt of the fayth.

I iugle not. For I saye not nay but y ^e saynt Iohn̄ ment of myracles. And in the tone place of the twayne he speketh B of myracles by name / sayenge Iesus wroughte many other myracles in the presence of hys dyscyples that be not wrytē in thys boke. In the tother place in the very ende he sayth y ^e Cryste dyd many other thynges / whyche yf they shold be all wryten, all the worlde coude not receyue the bokes y ^t sholde be wryten. In whyche wordes I denye not but that saynte Iohn̄ ment of Crystes myracles to, & therfore I iugle not. But Tyndale that in that seconde place where saynte Iohn̄ meneth no myracles, there excludeth hys doctryne / & wolde make vs wene that saynt Iohn̄ lefte not vnwryten any ne­cessary point of fayth: he iugleth & goth about to begyle vs

I thynke he taketh not so grete hold [...] vppon this word, dyd / in that saynt Iohn̄ sayth, Cryste dyd many other thyn­ges, and sayth not Cryste taughte many other thynges. For C thys worde doynge, includeth techynge, talkyng, spekyng, and all. As yf a man wolde saye / Cryst prayed, preched, and taught / this dyd he daye and nyght. And therfore syth saint Iohn̄s hole boke, was made not onely of Crystes myracles but also of hys doctryne & as well worde as dede / and then he sayth in the very ende of hys boke, that Cryste dyd many thynges mo, wherof yf all were wrytē the worlde coude not receyue the bokes: why maye not thys be vnderstanden of wordes and dedes and all / but yf Tyndale wene that the bokes wolde be the fewer yf the doctryne were in them to.

But now let vs se whyther of vs two playe the false iu­geler / I that tell you that euery necessary poynt of bylefe is not wryten in saynt Iohn̄s gospell / or Tyndale that wolde [Page ccxlix] A make you wene that what so euer ye fynde not wrytē there, ye were not bounden to take it for any necessary poynt of fayth. For ellys yf Tyndale wolde graūte that saynt Iohn̄ had not wryten in dede euery necessary poynt of fayth: then is it as good for Tyndale that saynt Iohn̄ say so, as that in dede it be so. Let vs therfore leue disputyng vppon y ^e word, and loke vppon the dede, and se whyther it be so or not. If a man seke amonge the other euangelystes: he shall fynd mo necessary thynges then one lefte out in saynt Iohn̄ / and in eche of them somwhat that some other hath. And yf a man loke ferther in the boke of fayth, wryten in the hartes of Cristes hole catholyke chyrche: he shall fynde some thynges y ^t none of them all hath wryten, and yet necessary poyntes of fayth / as I haue shewed you samples and shall.

B But now bycause of Tyndale / let vs take some one. And what thyng rather then y ^e last souper of Cryste, hys maūdye with hys apostles / in whych he instytuted the blessed sacra­ment of the auter, hys owne blessed body and blode. Is this no necessary poynt of fayth? Tyndale can not deny it for a necessary poynt of fayth / & though it were but of hys owne false fayth agreynge wyth Luther, Huskyn, or zuinglius. And he can not saye that saynte Iohn̄ speketh any thynge therof, specyally not of the instytucyon. Nor he can not saye that saynt Iohn̄ speketh any thyng of the sacrament at all, syth that hys secte expressely denyeth that saynt Iohn̄ ment the sacrament in hys wordes, where he speketh expressely thereof in the .vi. chapyter of hys gospell.

And thus ye se howe wysely Tyndale sykketh wyth me C in the sentence of saynte Iohn̄s wordes / when the thynge y ^t I entende thereby is proued by his dede.

And yet bycause Tyndale wyll nothynge alowe but the word / if he pull frome y ^t word of saynt Iohn̄: I shall proue hym the same purpose by the worde of saynte Iohn̄s may­ster, our sauyour Cryste hym selfe / and saynte Iohn̄ shall bere me recorde that yt was Cryste that sayed yt. For oure sauyour lo as wytnesseth saynte Iohn̄ in the .xvi. chapiter, Iohan. 16 sayed vnto his dyscyples hym selfe: I haue yet many thyn­ges to saye to you, but ye can not bere them now / but when that the spyryte of trewth ys come, he shall teache you all trewth.

Lo here ye here our sauyour saye hym selfe, that he lefte and wolde leue some thynges, and that great thynges, and [Page cclx] therfore of lykelyhed necessarye / that they sholde not here A tyll after his passyon, that the holy goost sholde come and teache them / and well ye wote that saynte Iohn̄ endeth his boke byfore. And therfore as for thys authoryte of saynte Iohn̄, y ^t I layed in my dialoge: Tyndales answere wherin he calleth me a iugler, hath not yet iugled awaye the force / but hath by his false caste of iuglynge, fetely conuayed hym self out of the fryenge panne, fayre into the fyre.

where as I shew in my dyaloge that yt is not wryten in scrypture that our ladye was a perpetuall virgyne, and yet yt is a necessarye poynt to be byleued: This is his answere thereto.

Tyndale.

And how bryngeth he in the perpetuall virgynite of our lady / whych though yt be neuer so trew, is yet none artycle of our fayth to be saued by / but we byleue B yt wyth a storye fayth, bycause we se no cause resonable to thynke the contrarye.

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By this answere yt appereth well, that god be thanked he fyndeth not yet the peoples deuocyon so farre fallē from our lady / that he dare be bolde to saye all that he thynketh. For ellys he wolde saye more then he doth. And lyke as he forbedeth folke to pray to her / and specially mysselyketh her deuowt antem of Salue regina: so wolde he not fayle yf he saw the people frame all after hys fantasye, to blaspheme her in this mater of a nother fashion / as other of his felowes haue done byfore his dayes.

But now for the meane whyle he is contente y ^t men may thynke them selfe at lybertye to byleue it or not byleue yt as C they lyste, as a thynge of no necessyte to be byleued vppō saluacyon of our soules. And full well he woteth, that though he say now that he can se no reason why to thynke the con­trary: yet if he could bryng vs ones in the mynde that there is no parell therin, he myght afterward well inough tell vs when he wolde the contrarye / and saye that wyth better lo­kynge theron, he hath now founden that Eluidius & other elder heretyques of the same sewte, sayde therin very well, and that reason and scrypture is wyth them / and that saynt Austayne and saynte Hierome & all y ^e remanaūt say wrong, bycause theyr parte is not wryten in scrypture.

This wyll not Tyndale herafter let to say when he lyst / yf he maye make vs wene in the meane whyle that we maye [Page cclix] A chuse whyther we wyll byleue thys poynt or not.

But I saye that in that poynte Tyndale sayeth wronge. For in any suche thynge as we be bounden to byleue / yf I byleue yt in dede, & yet byleue therwyth that I maye law­fully chuse whether I wyll byleue yt or not: I saye that in so byleuynge I byleue nought, nor my bylyefe shall not serue me.

Then saye I farther that this artycle is suche, that we be boundē to byleue yt. For he that byleueth yt not is an h [...] ­retyque / as yt playnely appereth hoth by saynt Austayn in his boke to quod vult deus/and by saynte Hierome in hys boke agaynste Heluidius / and by the other holy sayntes and martyrs, who as saynt Hierome & saynt Austayne reherse, dyd wryte agaynste heretykes byfore / & called them Antidicho­marians, B that is to say Maries aduersaryes.

Then say I fynally that for as mych as it well & playne appereth, that all those holy cōnynge men and blessed sayn­tes / & therwyth all the whole catholyke chyrch bysyde, haue euer hytherto taken the perpetuall virginyte of our blessed lady for so sure a poynte of crysten fayth and bylyefe, y ^t they haue euer condemned the contrary for an heresye / and then syth y ^• artycle is not in holy scrypture wryten, but y ^t the wor­des of scrypture not well vnderstanden, seme to say the con­trary: I may & do agaynst Tindale & his felowes well and fully cōclude, that there is some thynge necessary to be byle­ued, and yet is not writen in scripture. And so to my secund argument, ye fynde his answere fonde. For as for his story fayth / wyth onely whych he sayth we byleue this poynt: I C shall touche yt I trust in [...]uch wyse, & his felynge fayth ther wyth when I come thereto / that euery man shall fele wyth hys fyngers endes, that Tyndale feleth neyther fayth, ler­nynge, reason, wyt, nor grace. I alledged in my dialoge the wordes of saynte P [...]ule to y ^e Corynthies, where he wry­teth vnto them of the holy howsell: As our lorde hath delyuered yt to me, so haue I delyuered yt to you. To this doth Tyndale answere thus.

Tyndale.

And whē he alledgeth Paule to the Corinthies: I say that Paule neuer knewe of this worde masse / neither can any man gather therof any straunge holy ge­stures, but the playne contrary / and that there was no nother vse there then to breke the brede among them at soper, as Crist dyd. A and therfore he calleth it Cristes super and not masse.

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Here goth Tyndale aboute to iugle / but his gallys be to [Page cclxii] greate. I layed those wordes for none other cause, but to A proue that y ^e apostle byfore his wrytynge taught them that great mystery by mouth / and shewed them the manner hym selfe byfore his pystle writē / which he wold not haue wryten vnto them at all, yf he myght then cōueniently haue ben present wyth them. And now where I sayed that yt was well lykely, that of saynt Poule by his present tradycyon was re­ceyued holy gestures as the chyrche vseth in the consecra­cyon: he answereth me that there is no suche thynge there spoken in the pystle. whyche I sayed not there was / but I saye that he fyndeth no worde in the pyst [...]e that proueth that saynt Poule therin wrote euery thyng y ^t he presently spake or dyd. But yt appereth well y ^t saynt Poule speketh of that thynge in that chapyter, not to put in wrytynge all thynge that he hadde byfore tolde them by mouth / but onely to put B them in remembraunce that the thyng whyche they there receyued in the forme of brede, though yt were called brede, was yet in dede the very blessed bodye of Cryste. And for the more clere profe therof: he put them in remembraūce / that as he hadde byfore shewed them, our sauyour hym self told hym so. And this he remēbred them of by wrytyng, to make them vse them self there after the more reuerētly. For lakke wherof he wryteth to them, that sykenesse and deth by y ^e vengeaunce of god fell amonge them / bycause they dyd not vse suche reuerence & honour as they sholde do to the precyouse body and blessed blood of Cryste. And in that chapiter saynt Poule speketh but of certayne vnreuerent poyntes in spe­cyall / and concludeth sayeng, caetera autem quum venero disponam/the remanaunt or all the other thynges, I wyll my self order C at my commyng. Here may we se what so euer Tyndale saye, that saynte Poule bysyde thys that he wrote of the sacrament, gaue the people other tradycyons thereof by mouth (as I sayde in my dialoge) p [...]cteynynge to the reue­rence and honour therof, and Tyndale sayeth here the con­trarye. But now let the boke be iudge / and by that chapiter iudge also the false fayth of Tyndale, that sayth yt is synne to do any honour to yt.

And where Tyndale sayth that saynt Poule neuer know thys worde masse, I byleue that well inough / for I neuer herd that he spake any word of englyshe. But that he knew not the thynge that englyshe men call the masse / Tyndale hath not proued yet, nor wyll not do this weke. For he must [Page cclxiii] A proue yt better then by that saynte Poule spake of goddes supper. For we call the howselynge of the people goddes borde and Crystes table / and yet we know the masse to for all that besyde. And y ^e apostles them selfe I dowte not sayd masse many a tyme & oft before any gospell wrytē. And holy saynte Chrysostheme sayeth that the apostles in the masse prayed for all crysten soules.

where as I sayd that of y ^e apostles tradicyon was lerned y ^e maner of cōsecracyon: y ^• answereth Tyndale in this wise.

Tyndale.

A great dowte / as though we coulde not gather of the scrypture how to do yt.

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Surely men settynge no more therby then Tyndale and his felowes do: may gather out of the gospell or the pystle B eyther, or out of what they wyll, the maner of the consecra­cyon, & saynge of the masse that shall serue them self [...] whyle they say yt they care not how, & byleue they care not what / whyle they byleue yt to be none oblacyon, hoste, nor sacry­fyce / nor the body nor blood of Criste to be in the sacramēt / nor that the masse doth any man good at all, saue onely to the preste him selfe. For what care they how they say masse / whyche the more synfull they be, and the more encombred cōscyence that they haue / the more encombred, & y ^e more boldely as Luther byddeth in Babilonica [...] presume they to goddes borde. But vndouted who so haue a reuerent care ther­of, and ryght fayth of the sacrament / well percey [...]eth that how to saye masse hathe ben taught the apostles by the spi­ryte of god, and by the apostles forth. And yf Luther, frere C Huskyn, zwinglius, Ty [...]dale, and Lambert, hadde neuer knowen it afore / but shold haue taken the scripture in theyr handes, and eche of them deuyse a maner of sayng masse by hym selfe: I dare well saye for all Tyndales boste, eche of them sholde haue deuysed a sondry fashyon, and yet neuer one of the ryght. For profe wherof Luther hym self castyng awaye the holy canon of the masse / frameth after his fonde fashyon a maner of consecracyon and saynge of the masse in hys boke of Babilonica. whyche folyshe inuencyon of hys Rosseus impugneth and playnely proueth, that sauyng for the tradycyon of the chyrche, Luther coulde neuer tell how or in what wyse to consecrate or saye masse / and that y ^e way that Luther deuyseth is vnsuffycyēt and vncertayne by Luthers awne rule. And I doute not but that Tyndale hathe [Page cclxiiii] redde both Rosseus and Luther in those places / and ther­fore A I meruayle so myche the more that he dare be so bolde to saye yt / when beynge hym selfe but Luthers scoler, he seeth his mayster made a fole therin all redy.

where as I in my dialoge alledge, that the preste in the consecracyon putteth water in to the wyne, where as the scrypture speketh but of wyne: therto answereth Tyndale thus.

Tyndale.

A great dowte also and a perilouse case yf yt were lefte out. For eyther yt was done to slake the hete of the wyne / or put to after a ceremonye, to signifye that as the water is chaunged into wyne, so are we chaunged thorow fayth as yt were into Cryste, and are one wyth hym. How be yt all is to theyr owne shame, that ought sholde be done or vsed amonge vs crysten, wherof no man wiste the meanynge. For yf I vnderstode not the meanynge / yt helpeth me B not one corne .1. Corinth. 14. and as experience teacheth. But yf our sheperdes had bene as wyllynge to [...]ede as to shere: we hadde neded no such dispycyēce, ner they to haue burnt so many as they haue.

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where Tyndale sayth in skorne (as he gladly scorneth alway when he speketh of the sacrament) y ^t yt were a great doute and a perylouse case to leue the water oute: I am very sure that yf there hadde be not dowte nor parell to leue yt out / there was neuer good crysten man that any reuerēce hadde to Cryste, but he wold haue put great dowte, & haue thought yt great parell to put any water in. For what beste wolde be so bolde when he fyndeth not that Cryste in the cō ­secracyon and chaunge of the wyne into hys owne blood, vsed any other thynge then wyne [...] and spake also hym selfe C of the onely lycoure of y ^e grape: who durste I say haue put therto any thynge ellys / and to haue consecrated his blood of wyne and water. But one thynge is there y ^t maketh Tindale in this poynt so bolde / y ^t is to wyt his owne spyrytuall rule that he so myche bosteth of, in serchyng out the cause, and then rulynge all thynge by some cause of his owne ma­kynge. As here, he gesseth here two causes why the water is putte in. And though he wote nere whyther of the twayn is the trewth / yet he maketh hym selfe sure that yt must ne­dys be the tone. And then rekeneth he y ^e causes both twayne so substancyall / that yt maketh in his mynde no mater why ther the thyng be done or vndone.

Luther was hym selfe also so meshed in thys mater, when [Page cclxv] A the kynges hyghnesse layed agaynste hym the puttynge of the water into the wyne, that in hys frantyke answere he fared as Tyndale doth here / and not wyttynge what to saye therto, began to gesse at the cause wherfore it was put in: wherin he sought so farre / that at last he founde, y ^t whyther it were in or out it made no mater, bycause he sayd it was a thynge impertynent to the mater / so y ^t by hym a man myght put into the wyne what he wolde besyde. yet then founde he forther that it is euyll done to put it in. For he sayed it had an euyll sygnyfycacyon / and sygnyfyed that the syncerite of scrypture was watered with mennes tradycyōs. Lo so was he be wrapped therin, that he coude not in thys worlde wyt what to say therto / but farynge lyke a frantyque fole, and answerynge thys and that he wyste nere what nor at what B poynt to holde hym, fynally fell to blasphemy. And now his good scolar Tyndale wyll be nothynge a knowen of hys maysters foly, but diuyneth and deuyseth two new causes of hys owne brayne / and affyrmeth that some one of those twayne muste nedys be the very cause / as though god hym selfe coude fynde no ferther cause then Tyndale hath ser­ched out / and then he theruppon concludeth, that they wa­ter may be as well lefte out as put in.

But what so euer Tyndale saye / there was neuer good man yet thys .xv. C. yere that durste leue it out / nor other wyse vse it thē god hath taught his apostles with his owne worde vnwryten otherwyse then in crysten hartes.

Holy sayntes also haue thought vppon other causes. For some haue thought that god ordayned the water to be C mengled wyth the wyne, as the water welled out wyth the blood out of hys blessed harte vppon the crosse. And holy saynt Cypriane that connynge doctour and blessed martyr theruppon sayth, that our sauyour hym selfe at the tyme of the instytucyon of that blessed sacrament, dyd put water in to wyne, though there was no mencyon made therof in the wrytyng / no more then there was of dyuers other thynges that our sauyour dyd as saynt Iohn̄ sayth, & that he wolde haue to be done in hys chyrche euer after. Of whyche thyn­ges thys infusyon of water is one, taught vndoughtedly by god to hys apostles, and by them forth / and so thys .xv. hundred yeres contynued in Crystes chyrche wythout any men­cyon therof made in scrypture, & yet men of necessyte boūdē to obserue it / nor no man euer thought or durst thynke the [Page cclxvi] contrary [...] tyll now Luther and Tyndale and suche other of A theyr sorte [...] whyche set so lytell by that blessed sacrament, y ^t they wolde haue all honour and reuerēce taken from it, and rekened for a bare sygne set but onely to sygnyfye, wythout any geuynge of grace / and therfore they wolde haue yt ho­mely handeled how so euer men lyste. Deuyse ones some sygnyfycacyon / & then wold those heretykes by theyr wyllys, that in stede of wyne and water, men wolde consecrate new ale in cornes.

Now where he sayth y ^t it is the shame of y ^e clergy if aught be vsed amonge crysten men, wherof no man wyste the meanynge: why more then for Moyses to delyuer and leue to the people many ceremonyes commaunded by god, wherof the people what so euer Tyndale saye neuer vnderstode the meanynge. wold the wyse man that yf god bydde a man do B a thynge / he shall saye hym nay but yf he tell hym why?

Then fynysheth he this mater wyth a proper taunt, that yf our shepeherdes were as willynge to fede as to shere: we hadde neded no suche dyspycyons / nor they to haue burned so many as they haue.

Lo y ^e great faute that Tyndale fyndeth in y ^t the prelates do not as he doth, deuyse causes at auenture and warraunt them for trewe / nor leue out the water boldely vppon hys goostly consayle now, agaynste the fayth of all faythfull folke this .xv. hondred yere byfore.

And where he layeth that y ^e slaknesse of fedyng hath caused so many to be burned: I wyll not saye naye but that yt myght haue bē better with some, if there had ben vsed more dilygence in preachyng. But as f [...]r many such as haue ben C burned / all the pchynge in the world wold not haue holpen theyr obstynacy. But sure yf y ^e prelates had taken as good hede in tyme as they sholde haue done: there sholde perad­uenture at length fewer haue ben burned therby. But there shold haue ben mo burned by a great many then there haue ben wythin this seuen yere laste passed. The lakke whereof I fere me will make mo burned within this seuen yere next commynge / then ellys sholde haue neded to haue ben bur­ned in seuen score.

where I alledged the chaunge of the sabbaoth daye into the sonday wythout scrypture: thereto he answereth thus.

Tyndale.

As for the sabbaoth a great mater. We be lordes ouer the sabbaoth day, and [Page cclxvii] A may yet chaunge yt into the monday, or any other day as we se nede / or may make euery tenth day holyday onely yf we se a cause why. we may make two euery weke yf yt were expedient, and one not inough to teacke the people. Neyther was there any cause to chaunge yt from the satterdaye, then to put dyfference betwene vs and the Iewes / and leste we shuld be come seruaūtes vn­to the daye after theyr superstycyon. Neyther neded we any holy day at all, yf the people myght be taught wythout yt.

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Tyndale maketh the chaunge of the sabbat daye a very sleyght mater. And bycause that our sauyour sayde of hym selfe, that the sonne of man, that is to wytte he hym selfe was lorde of the sabbat daye: therefore as though euery man were god almyghty his felow, Tyndale sayth that we be lordes of the sabbat day, so that we may chaung the son­daye B into mondaye.

He sayth that there was neuer cause to chaung it fro sat­terday, but onely to put a difference betwene vs & y ^e Iewes, and leste we sholde bycome seruauntes vnto the daye after theyr superstycyon. But I thynke there was bysyde thys a nother cause more pryncypall then any of both those. For y ^e Iewes and the crysten hadde other dyfferences and dystynccyons betwene them / as baptysme and cyrcumcysyon. Nor yt hadde not ben so great incōuenience that they shold both haue serued god on one daye, that for the auoydyng therof we sholde haue lefte the daye that god hym selfe appoynted in the begynnynge. And also crysten men both myght haue kepte the same daye that the Iewes kepte, and yet haue left the superstycyon therof that the Iewes vse. And may nowe C also (as happely some do) kepe the sonday wyth lyke superstycyon as the Iewes do the saterday. And therefore these causes be but dyuyned and gessed at, and seme but very se­cundary. But the very cause of the chaung is / that mē were not the lordes of the sa [...]batday, nor men were not the pryncypall authours and makers of the chaunge. But the sonne of man our sauyour. Cryste hym selfe, beynge (as he sayde hym selfe) lorde euen ouer the sabbatday to / and whyche as god hadde made and ordeyned the sabbatdaye for man and not man for the sabbatday, and yet neuerthelesse subdued man vnto certayne order of seruynge not the sabbatday but god vppon the sabbatday: he I saye hym selfe when he de­lyuered the people from the obseruaūce of the olde law, dyd as lorde of the sabbatday, dyscharge them of the sabbatday.

[Page cclxviii]And yet bycause they sholde not haue suche a lordely A mynde as Tyndale here teacheth vs to haue / as to thynke they myght at theyr pleasure take what day they wolde, and make and breke as they lyste: he appoynted them hym selfe and his owne holy spyrite, the day of his owne resurrecciō. whyche gloryouse rysynge of his blessed body not onely to reste, but also to eternall glory: it pleased hym to haue we­kely celebrate wyth the restynge day drawen from wordely besynes, to the desyre of heuen & acceptable seruyce of god. And for this is yt and euer hath ben specyally called our lordes daye. wherof to say that we be now the lordes and able to chaunge yt to fryday for our pleasure, or turne yt to euery tenth day when we lyste: I wene that none wyll saye so but lurdanes, y ^• longed to make gaudyes of goddes passyō, or make hym honored selder then he shold. For as for nede / B fell there neuer none such yet, to chaunge this day y ^t Cryste hath ordeyned hym self. And he is as able to kepe it frō such nede of chaunge for euer here after / as he hath kepte yt this xv. hundred yere byfore.

If Tyndale stykke styll in this poynte / & say the chyrche made yt and the chyrch may breke yt: I say that the chyrch as yt made yt so yt maye breke yt. That is to wyt that as yt made yt by the spiryte of god, so yt may breke yt by the same spiryte. That is to say that as god made yt, so hym self may breke yt, yf yt so shall please hym. For in suche thynges though the chyrche haue ordeyned yt: yet hath the chyrche not done yt but the spiryte of god / as holy saynte Austayne sayth in the receyuynge of ou [...] howsell, where he sayth that yt hath pleased the holy goost, that where as in the bygyn­nynge C yt was receyued after other meatys, yt shode be now receyued of folke whyle they be fastynge.

And in lyke wyse the apostles, to geue vs knowlege that though the chyrche make the ordinaunce, yet the spyryt of god is the worker therof: wrote as is remembred in the .xv. of the actes: It hath pleased y ^e holy goost and vs, & so forth shewed what lawes they had made / declarynge therby that though them selfe made them, yet made they them not wyth out the mocyon of goddes holy spiryte. And neuer shall the whole catholyque chyrche, neyther make wythout god nor breke agayne wythout hym. But he shall wyth hys presence and hys holy spyryte, so gyde and gouerne hys chyrch in suche manner of thynges / that they shall not chaung [...] [Page cclxix] A chaunge the sondaye neyther of lordely mynde [...] pleasure, nor necessyte. Nor I thynke he shall neuer suffer the chyrch to chaunge it. But it is a chaunge ones so made and esta­blysshed by our sauyour hym selfe, that as y ^e saterdaye was ordeyned by god hym selfe to stande vnchaunged tyll Cryst came / so is Crystes daye so ordeyned by hym selfe [...] y ^t it shall stande vnchaunged tyll hym selfe come agayne, & chaunge all the weke and all the yere to into one eternall daye wyth­out eyther weke or yere. And thys chaunge hath he made I saye fro saterdaye to sondaye hym selfe wythout scrypture / whyche we be bounden wythout scrypture obedyentely to kepe and obserue, what so euer Tyndale bable and scoffe agaynste it.

For where Tyndale sayth that we be suche lordes ouer B it, that we maye chaunge and make our sabbatdaye as well vppon any other daye as vppon the sondaye: I wolde wyt of hym whyche we? whyther the hole catholyke chyrche or euery pertyculare prouynce / and yf so, then euery dyocyse / and by the same reason, euery parysshe by it selfe / and then any howsholde / and fynally any one man is by hym selfe at the same lybertye to kepe for hys owne sabbat daye whyche daye he lyste hym selfe, and nede not to come to chyrche wyth other but whan there is a sermone. And then ye wote well thys waye wolde do well. Now yf he meane by we, all we the hole chyrche of Cryst by a comen consent: then must he tell vs whyche is it, and then muste he nedes assygne a knowen chyrche. where is then becomē hys heresye of theyr secrete vnknowen chyrche of electes and penytentes wyth­out C penaunce?

And where he sayth we nede none holydaye at all yf the people myghte be taught wythout it: thys is one drawght of hys poyson putte forth vnder the swete pretexte of prea­chynge. wherby syth preachynge is necessary / he wolde make men byleue that commynge to chyrche on the holy­day, or there to honour god wyth dyuyne seruyce and pray­our, were but a thynge of nought / where as the apostles came them selfe in to the temples in the holydayes to praye. And our sauyour alledgeth hym selfe the wordes of Esay: Esaiae .51. My howse shall be called the howse of prayour.

Now where as I alledged in my dyaloge the wordes of saynte Poule vnto the Thessalonycenses, to whom he wry­teth in thys wyse: kepe you my tradycyons whych I haue [Page cclxx] taken you, eyther by worde or letter: to this doth Tyndale A answere no [...]hynge to me, but thys.

Tyndale.

I haue to that answered Rochester in the obedience / that his tradicyons were the gospell that he preached.

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In very dede Tyndale in hys boke of disobedyence laboreth sore to wade out of those wordes of saynte Poule / in whyche as my lorde of Rochester sayed, it appereth playne that saynt Poule sayth hym selfe that he taught thynges by mouth whyche he wrote not. And what sayth Tyndale to it there? he sayth nothyng ellys in this world but as he sayth here / that y ^e thynges whiche saynt Poule taught by mouth, were the selfe same thynges that he wrote. And then goeth he forth wyth a longe babelary, parte to no purpose & parte B playne heresye / and fareth as though hym selfe had standē by all the whyle that saynt Poule taughte any thynge by mouth. Now whyther hys w [...]rdes be to purpose or not / I pray you consyder your selfe.

we saye that these sacramentes and many holy ceremo­nyes vsed in the chyrche in the masse and in other partes of dyuyne seruyce / were taught by the spyryte of god and delyuered by hys blessed apostles. Nay sayth Tyndale y ^t coude not be / for all necessarye thynges y ^t they taught they wrote. Proue that say we and take all. But we wyll proue by saynt Poules owne wordes, that he taught thinges that he wrote not. For he byddeth the Thessalonicensis kepe and obserue well all that he had taught thē, eyther by mouth or letters / & then that none of them were any necessary poyntes, that C poynt we byd Tindale proue. His profe therin ye haue herd before / that yf y ^e apostles wrote not all suche thynges, what coude it auayle that they wrote any thinges at all. And that reason ye remember that we haue a [...]swered before / and proued it a great foly, to reken that in our owne realme no law byndeth that is vnwryten, bycause there be many wryten / or that theyr wrytynge were vnprofytable that wrote vs parte, bycause they wrote vs not all. But now in that place of the obedyence, where the rude rybaude rayleth agaynste y ^e reuerende father my lorde bysshop of Rochester: he sayth styffely that none of those thynges whyche we speke of, and specyally sacramentes or ceremonyes, were any of those thynges that saynt Paule taught by mouth. Then aske we [Page cclxxi] A hym wherby know you that. Mary sayeth he, for I shall tell you what he taughte. He taughte the same that he wrote / and hys trady­cyons were the gospell that he preached / and good maners and vertues, and some good custumes to, that be synnes for abuses chaunged, as [...]ys [...]ynge eche other. And some he taught as preceptes, and some as good counsay [...]es / as vir­ginite, and wydolye chastyte, not to [...]ynne heuen therby (For neyther cyr­cumcysyon nor vncyrcumcysyon is any thynge at all, but the kepynge of the commaundementes is all togyder) but that they myghte be without trowble, and the better wayte on goddys wordes, and the frelyer serue theyr bretherne.

Here I passe by his heresyes, that in these wordes appere bothe agaynst vyrgynyte and wydoly chastyte / whyche he meaneth to be nothynge worth as touchynge any rewarde to be gyuen for them in heuyn. For though he say no ferther here but that they wynne not heuyn, whyche euery man a­greeth: B yet meaneth he ferther as he declareth in many other places / and as it here appereth by hys ensample of circumcysyon. I let passe also hys heresye concernyng y ^e cyrcū cysyon, whyche wyth hys false vnderstandynge of saynte Poule, he wolde haue taken [...]o haue standen in no stede at all towarde heuen / and by the same reason no more he wold that baptysme neyther, as he hath oftentymes declared.

I let passe also / that by those wordes of saynte Poule whyche hym selfe now bryngeth in, that the kepynge of the cōmaundemētes is all togyther, hys owne heresyes be ouer throwen. For yf the kepynge of the cōmaundementes be all together / then fayth alone is not all together. But rather as he maketh cyrcumcysyon nothynge, bycause the cōmaun­demētes be all: so myghte he make fayth nothyng bycause C the cōmaundementes be all togyther. But he maketh saynt Poules wordes to serue hym for hys iuglynge stykke. For saynte Poule meaneth of cyrcumcysyon alone in the olde lawe, wyth fayth and good workes / as saynte Iamys speketh of fayth. And in the new law now it is nothynge at all in dede.

These wordes also of saynt Poule destroye Tyndales heresye, that mennys good workes be not rewarded in he­uyn / and that it is idolatrye to serue god wyth any bodyly workes, or to do any of thē to come the rather to heuē. For yf the kepyng of the cōmaundementes be all togyther / and some of them be bodyly workes: a man maye lawfully do them for goddys sake, and to his worshyp to, and haue his rewarde in heuen to.

[Page cclxxii]But now lettyng these poyntes passe as I saye: I wold A aske Tyndale whyther amonge those poyntes that saynte Poule taught by mouth, & whyche he wrote not / were any thynges necessarye to be byleued or done, vppon parell of our soules helth. If he say ne: then destroieth he his whole reason that he made afore for the contrarye / where he sayde that yf the apostles taught any suche thynges & wrote them not, what auayleth all those thynges that they wrote. If he saye nay / but that all the thynges y ^t he taught by mouth, were thynges of lytle weyght, and not worth the wrytyng / and that therfore he wrote vnto the Corinthyes that all the other thynges he wold dispose and ordayne hym selfe at his commynge, bycause he rekened them not worthy to occupy place in hys pystle: yf Tyndale tell vs thys, we wyll aske hym who tolde hym so / and wherby he knoweth that saynte B Poule taught the people by mouth, no mo thynges, nor of none other kynde then Tyndale sayth he dyd. was hym self at that tyme companyon to saynt Poule / and y ^t so cōtynuall and so vnseparable, that daye nor nyght he neuer departed from hym / but euer watched hym so surely, that he coulde neuer saye nothynge but Tyndale stode by and herd hym?

Tyndale in this poynt well perceyueth hym selfe, howe harde a parte he hath to proue. And therfore seynge that he hath entrede a mater that he can not ende / & hath sayd that he can neuer make good: at laste he waxeth angry. And by­cause he can not tell all thynge that saynt Poule taught, as he beganne to take vppon hym: he cōcludeth nothyng but that saynt Poule taught none of the sacramentes nor cere­monyes that Luther and he reproue. And thus he sayth. C

Tyndale.

But that the apostles gaue vs any blynde ceremonies, whereof we coulde not knowe the reason / that I denye and also defye.

More.

Forsoth saue for the ryme I wolde not geue a ryshe, neyther for his denyeng nor for hys defyenge, nor for any rea­son that he layeth forth therfore.

For where he sayth that yt is contrary to the lernynge of saynt Poule euery where: I say that therein Tindale sayth not trew. For saynt Poule reproued but the superstyciouse truste that the iewes hadde, as well in theyr ceremonyes & sacramentes, as in the workes of theyr law wythout fayth and iustyce and dedes of cheryte / and the superstycyon [...] [Page cclxxiii] A them also that thought theym selfe bounden of necessyte to kepe them styll after the new lawe promulgate and spred a­bout / whē the tyme of those olde ceremonyes, sacramētes, iudycyalles, & all was gone / sauynge for as farreforth as the chyrch of Cryst by y ^e spiryte of god hath taken vp any a­ [...]ayne. But let Tyndale brynge of saynt Poule all the pla­ces that he possyble can / and he shall neuer fynde one whyle he lyueth amonge them all, in whyche saynte Poule repro­ueth any sacramēt or ceremony taken vppe and accompted for good thorow Crystes whole catholyque chyrche / nor yet the iewes for vsynge the ceremonyes geuen by god to Moyses, and by Moyses to them for the tyme whyle they serued, though they knew not the sygnyfycacyons / excepte yt were for lakke of some other vertue, whych they lefte of & rought B not for / and thereby loste the frute of theyre ceremonyes at all.

One other thynge he sayth whych he taketh for an hygh poynt, to proue that saynt Poule taught no ceremonyes or sacramentes, but suche as h [...] taught also theyr sygnyfyca­cyons. And that he proueth thus.

Tyndale.

Paule commaundeth that no man ones speke in the chyrche that is the congre­gacyon, but in a tonge that all men vnderstnade / excepte that there be an interpreter by.

More.

And what than? At suche tyme as the lawe was gyuen fyrste to the chyldern of Israel / yt was in dede wryten in a tonge that the people vnderstode. But yet the ceremonyes C though they were wryten in the same tonge, yet were there many of them that the people neuer vnderstode what they ment, nor peraduenture Moyses neyther / and yet were they bounden of obedyence to obserue them / and theyr obedyēce was frutefull to, but yf that some other faute made yt lese the frute.

And therfore where Tyndale telleth a longe tale y ^t saynt Paule commaundeth them to labour for knowelege, vnder [...]tadynge, felynge / and beware of hypocrosye, ceremonyes, and all maner of dysguysynge, and many such wordes mo, some of saynt Poule & some of his owne planted in among them: hys tale semeth somwhat solemne, but yt is nothyng substauncyall. For the sacramentes a [...]d ceremonys geuen by god vnto [...] chyrch, be neyther hipocrisye nor iudaycall [Page cclxxiiii] ceremonyes, nor dysguysynges neyther / whyche worde A Tyndale setteh in hym selfe in scorne as yt semeth of y ^e blessed sacrament of y ^e auter. Nor saynt Poule though he wold haue them labour for knowlege / meaneth not yet they shall leue the sacramentes vnserued which god hath taught, tyll he teche them the knowlege why he taught them, and what specyall sygnyfycacyon euery sacrament & ceremony had.

For where as Tyndale rymeth yt out, and sayth that he both denyeth and also defyeth, that the apostles taught any ceremonye wherof the reason coulde not be knowen: for all hys denyeng and also defyenge, a better man then the apo­stles dyd, our sauyour Cryste hym selfe, when he sent is dy [...] cyples forth to baptyse and to preache / he taught them how they sholde go and what they sholde do, but the reason and cause of euery ceremony that fynde we not y ^• euer he taught B them / but at some of them he suffred both them then, and vs euer synnes, to gesse and to dyuyne.

For that he wolde haue them neyther bere walet, nor sa­chell, nor shone vppon theyr [...]te, nor stykke in theyr hand, nor salute any man by the way, nor why he chose water and baptisme in stede of circūcisyon, nor why he wold they shold lay theyr handes vppon some syke folke whom they shold hele, nor why they shold anoynt syke folke wyth oyle & hele them by that meane: the causes I say and the proper sygnyfycacyons of all these ceremonyes and many other, we fynd not that our sauyour when he sent them shewed them / and yet he bode them do yt, and they were bounde to obaye and meryted and deserued by theyr obedyēce. Myche more thē he sholde haue done, who so wolde haue sayde, tell me fyrst C good lorde why maye I not putte on my shone, why maye I not take a stykke in myne hande, what arte thou the better thought I go bare fote, what shall yt hurte the mater though I bere a stykke, why were yt not as good to smere a syke man wyth butter as anoynt hym wyth oyle / tell me the causes of all those thynges and y ^• proper sygnifycacyon ere I go. For ellys to say that I wyll be sent out with such dumme ceremonyes, wherof I know not the causes, that I denye and also defye. He y ^t thus sholde haue sayd lyke Tyndale / shold haue goten lytle thanke.

And as I haue byfore somwhat say [...]e / almyghtye god taught many ceremonyes to Moyses, and he forth to [...]he people / and neyther can Tyndale nor any man elips proue [Page cclxxv] A me by scrypture, that the people vuderstode all theyr sygny­fycacyōs / no nor Moyses neyther. And where is then Tyndales worshyppefull ryme, that I denye and also defye?

I lette passe all the ceremonyes taught about the arche, the temple, the sacryfyces, and many other thynges / & wyll wyt but howe Tyndale can proue me that the chyldern of Israell, or as I saye Moyses eyther, vnderstode all the ce­remouyes commaunded by god about theyr departyng out of Egypte? why a lambe, why a kydde, why of one yere, why wythout spotte, why taken the .x. daye, why offred the xiiii, why the vengauns of god put fro the house at the to­ken of the blood put vppon the postes, why eaten by nyght, why none lefte tyll the morow, but rather the remanaunt burnte, why vnleuened brede, why wylde letuse. I knowe B well god wyste why he commaunded all those ceremonyes / but I saye Tyndale can not proue that the people vnder­stode them all, nor peraduētnre that Moyses neyther.

If Tyndale yet say that the people vnderstode all those ceremonyes: I wyll fyrste bydde hym proue me that poynt by scrypture. And then for some lykelyhed towarde a profe of the contrary / I wyll laye forth for authorite agaynst wyllyam Tyndale, the wordes of one mā whom Tyndale wold were moste byleued of all men / that is to wytte the wordes of wyllyam Tyndale hym selfe. For hym selfe sayth in hys boke agaynste me.

Tyndale.

Cryste axed the apostles Matth. xv, whom they toke hym for. And Peter answered for them all / saynge [...] I say that thou art Cryste the sonne of the ly­uynge C god, that art come into this worlde. That is, we byleue that thou art he that was ꝓmysed vnto Abraham, shuld come and blesse vs and delyuer vs. How be yt Peter yet wyste not by what meanes. But now yt is opened tho­row out all the worlde, that thorow the offerynge of hys body and bloude.

More.

Now syth as Tyndale sayth hym selfe, saynt Peter at y ^e tyme dyd not knowe by what meane Cryste sholde redeme vs / and yt is very lykely that saynte Peter al be yt he was not yet fully lerned, dyd yet at y ^e tyme goynge to scole wyth Cryste, vnderstande as myche at the leste wyse as the comē peple dyd euen in Moyses days: I thynke therfore y ^e Tyndale sholde hym selfe agre contrary to that hym selfe hathe sayde byfore, that the people vnderstode not all the ceremo­nyes. And yet I thynke he wyll not saye that they myght at [Page cclxxvi] that tyme leue all such vndone / and say as Tyndale sayth, A all that vtterly we denye and also defye.

I wolde fayne wyt wherfore Tyndale sholde take it for so straunge, that god or hys apostles sholde gyue vnto Crystes chyrche any ceremonyes, wherof they sholde not vnderstande the reason / when he seeth well that god hath spoken to his people many wordes by his prophetes and his owne sonne, and hys sonnes apostles to, and caused them to be wryten also in holy scrypture / in whyche textes men be no more sure of the very sentence then of the very sygnyfyca­cyon of those ceremonyes. But god hath not wythout oure frute lefte suche thynges vnknowen vnto vs, to quykken & e [...]ercyse as saynte Austayne sayth some mennys myndes in the studye and deuysynge theruppon / whyche yf all were open and playne, wolde waxe neglygent and dull / and now B in the deuysynge theruppon, fynde out good and frutefull thynges, allegoryes and other, not affermynge those to be y ^e very thynges there entended [...]ut thynges that deuoutely & frutefully may be thereon takē and turne men to deuocyon, and thys as well in the ceremonyes as in those harde and not intellygyble textes. And yf Tyndale deny thys / bycause he wolde seme sure of all thynge, and that there were no place in scrypture to hym not vnderstanden: he shall whyle he wolde seme so wyse, proue hym selfe a fole in y ^e iugement of all men, that any thynge laboure in scrypture. And thus ye se now in what substancyall wyse that Tyndale hath an­swered my lorde of Rochester, vnto the playne wordes of saynt Poule wryten vnto the Thessalonycenses / by whych wordes he sheweth playnely hym selfe, that he wrote not all C that he taught. And then that these thynges whyche Tyn­dale impugneth, why that they myghte not be among those thynges that saynt Poule taughte by mouth / ye haue herde I say how wourshypfully Tyndale hath proued.

I were lothe to leue vntouched any thyng that Tyndale any where sayeth agaynste my purpose in thys mater. And therfore syth I fynde in hys answere to my dyaloge yet a nother patche, wherin I perceyue he taketh great pleasure / and weneth or wolde at the lest that other men sholde wene, that he had therwyth vtterly proued hys parte and clerely reproued myne: I wyll wythdrawe none of hys glory, and therfore ye shall here that to. In hys answere to the .xxix. chapyter of my fyrste boke these are hys wordes.

A Tyndale.

In the .xxix. chapyter M. More alledgeth, that Cryste s [...]yed not the [...] goost shall wryte, but shall teache. It is not the vse to saye t [...] holy [...] writeth / but inspyreth the wryter.

More.

Properly answered, yf I wolde holde my peace. But I muste put Tyndale agayne in remembraūce bycause he by­leueth nothyng but scrypture, and then draweth all the scripture into goddes promyses: I muste therfore I say putte hym in remembraunce that I brought in that authoryte to shew hym that god made no promyse that he wolde wryte all his new testament, nor cause yt to be made all in bokes / but that he wolde sende his holy goost to teche his chyrch & to lede thē into euery trouth. And where Tyndale sayth it is not y ^e vse to say y ^e holy goost writeth but inspyreth y ^• wryter / I B say agayne y ^t the scrypture letteth not to speke of goddes writyng / & to tell how he wyll wryte his new testamēt when he sayth by the mouth of y ^e prophete Hieremy: I shall geue my law in theyr bowles / & I shall wryte yt in theyr hartes. Hi [...]r [...]m. [...]1.

Lo here he telleth what maner of wrytyng he wyll vse in wrytynge of his newe law / bycause we shall not excuse our selfe & say, that we wyll not byleue no more thereof then we shall fynde wryten in bokes. He maketh vs no promyse y ^t he wyll cause it to be wrytē in bokes / but pursuyng these wor­des of the prophete, he sayd hym selfe his owne mouth [...] y ^t he wolde send the holy goost to come teache his chyrche & lede them in to euery trouth. To this will Tyndale happely say in y ^e word he ment and so dyd y ^e prophete also, that he wolde wryte yt in the hartes of the euangelystes and apostles and C teache them & lede them [...]nto euery trouth / whych shold put all the necessary trouth in wrytynge. Let Tyndale proue this meanynge by some one text of scripture, or some one necessary reason / of whyche neyther hym selfe, nor any other of his felowes haue founden any one yet. And the wordes as well of the prophete as of our sauyour hym selfe, declare them selfe to the contrary. For the prophete and the euangelyste sayth [...] E [...]iae .54 Io [...]annis . [...]. that they shalbe all goddes owne scolers / whych sygnyfyeth that the congregacyon and companye shall be taught by god and his spyrite, that shall wryte the new law the ryght fayth in the hartes of hys chyrche. And our sauy­our sayd, I shall sende y ^e holy goost that shall teache you all thynge, and lede you into euery trouth. He sayde not the holy goost shall teche some of you that shall wryte yt out vnto [Page cclxxviii] the remanaunt. And therfore Tyndales comely glose wyll A not so substauncyally serue hym, as he wolde haue yt seme. For as that holy spiryte enspired mo then them that wrote / so enspyred he the wryters in mo thynges then they wrote / whych thynges they taught by mouth, and lefte it wyth the people by tradycyon as god lefte it wyth thē / whych thynge doth by theyr owne wordes well appere Iohannis .xxj, ad Thessalonicenses, 2. Thess. 2. ad Corynthios .xj. And yf these playne textes seme not yet suffycyent for our parte / let hym and all his felowes brynge forth some halfe texte halfe so suffycyent for theyr, parte prouynge that all is wryten and take all to gether.

But yet goth he farther and wolde seme of hys curtesye to helpe me somwhat forth, & say more thē I could for myne owne parte / and yet auoyde yt to. For thus he sayth.

Tyndale. B

I meruayle that he hadde not brought as many of his brethern do, Mathew in the laste / where Cryste commaunded the apos [...]les to go and teache all na­cyons, and sayed not wryte.

More.

In dede this wolde haue ben well brought in there / and many of my brethern haue as he sayth brought yt in, & my selfe also some where ellys in places mo then one / whyche I now boste of, bycause ye shall se that Tyndale hathe not yet so gayly answered yt as to make me ashamed to laye yt forth agayne. For yf he could brynge out one texte so good for hym, as that is for vs / that is to saye, that lyke as my brethern fynde out that texte by whyche Cryste byddeth all his apostles go preache and teache hys gospell: so yf Tyn­dale or any of hys brethern could [...] fynde out any texte, in C whyche Cryste hadde boden any of them go wryte hys go­spell / lorde god how solemnely Tyndale wolde set yt out to the shewe? And where as he now maketh lytle a do of Cry­stes word, byddyng them go preache: he wold make mych a do of his word, byddynge thē go wryte. But nowe ye shall se what answere he maketh, & what he bringeth for the shote ancre of all his shyfte / to proue y ^t they wrote euery necessary poynte.

Tyndale.

I answere that this precepte, loue thy neyghbour as thy selfe, and god aboue all thynge / went wyth the apostles and compelled them to seke goddes honour in vs, and to seke all meanes to cōtinue the fayth vnto the worldes ende. Now the apostles knew byfore that heresyes sholde come / and therfore wrote that yt myght be a remedy agaynste heresyes as yt well appereth Iohn̄ .xxi. where [Page cclxxix] A he sayth these are wrytē that ye byleue, and thorow bylyfe haue lyfe. And in the second of his first pistle he saith: these I write bycause of them that deceyue you. And Peter and Paule there to, warne vs ī many place. Wherfore it is manifeste that the same loue cōpelled them to leue nothyng vnwriten, that shold be necessarely requyred / and that yf yt were lefte out sholde hurte the soule.

More.

Lo now haue ye herde his vttermost, wherby he preueth vs that they wrote all to gether that is of necessite to be knowen. whych he proueth not as ye se by any scrypture proper for the poynte / as that any of them hadde any specyall commaundement to write: but that theyr cheryte droue them to yt. whyche he proueth by a deduccyon vppon this cōmaun­dement, loue god aboue all thynge, and thy neyghbour as thy selfe. For theruppon as he deduced afore that women B may synge masse, and muste in tyme of nede: so he deduceth now that the apostles were by the same cheryte dreuen by theyr wrytynge, to prouyde agaynste heresyes whyche they saw sholde come / and that coulde they not suffycyently do, but yf they prouyded a lyke agaynste all heresyes, ergo they wrote euery necessary trouth. This argument is god wote full pore, syke, and sore / & myght syt at saynte Sauyons a beggynge wyth a dyshe and a clapper, for any thynge that yt can helpe yt selfe / yt is so blynde and lame & lakketh so many lymmes / & yet hath it one the mo for me that Tyndale forgate to sette in. But yet lakketh he bothe hys legges for all that, and his yien, and his handes, and his brayne to. For he muste sette in, that they whych wrote, knew well euery heresye, that euer shold spryng after theyr days, and this C muste he proue by scrypture.

He muste also sette in, that no mo of the apostles knewe that poynte but onely those that wrote: or ellys that the to­ther coulde not wryte nor god coulde not teache them / or fynally that eache of them redde others wrytynge, and so saw that all was writen by theyr felowes / & then caried all theyr felowes writynge wyth them into the countres where them selfe preched, and lefte yt there. And this muste he proue me by scrypture / for ellys he saueth not vpperyght the cheryte of saynte Andrew nor saynte Bartlemew, that wrote no­thynge at all nor of saynt Peter in wrytyng lesse then saynt Poule / nor of saynt Iohn̄ for leuynge out the consecracion at Crystes maundye.

He must also put in that they saw that wythout wrytyng [Page cclxxx] god coude not kepe the poyntes of fayth amonge y ^e people / for A ellys the cheryte strayned them not of necessyte so sore to put all togyther in wrytynge.

He muste also put in, that all theyr wrytynge is kepte & reserued saufe, and euer shall tyll the daye of dome / for ellys he seeth what foloweth. And then knoweth he well that be­syde corrupcyon of bokes, myche therof is lo [...]te / but yf he wyll saye that in that scrypture was nothynge necessary, but that it is in thys y ^e remayneth. And then must he proue me that by scrypture ere I beleue hym. And ouer thys must he put in, that they haue wryten all thynge as clere as they myghte haue done to answere all heretykes wythall / for y ^e thynge longed to cheryte to, yf of cheryte theyr purpose was to wryte agaynste all heresyes.

And yet whyche I had almost forgoten, he muste put in B to, thys argument also, that they haue gyuen vs warnynge that they haue wryten all togyther that eyther than neded, or at any tyme after shold nede to be byleued or done, vppō payne of dedely synne. For thys is one of the very chyefe poyntes of all / & therfore thys muste he proue by scrypture. For ellys they lefte vs in daūger to byleue some other thyn­ges mo then they wryte / namely synnys y ^e some wrote not so mych as theyr felowes, sum confesse that they taught by mouth more then they wrote / and some wrote nothynge at all / and of that the other wrote, good parte loste / and of that wrytynge that remayneth, some corrupted by writers, some by prenters, and mych so hard that no man vnderstandeth.

And fynally muste he put in to thys argument also, that after theyr dayes Cryste wolde neuer shewe nor reuele any C thynge to hys chyrche more / nor byd any of them any other thynge byleue or do then was put in wrytynge all redy by hys apostles / or ellys that though he wolde byd them any forther thynge at any tyme after eyther byleue or do: yet wolde he neuer be angry wyth them though they wold ney­ther byleue that he told them, nor do that he bode them / but tell hym well and playnely to hys teth, that yf he wolde be byleued or obayd, he shold haue made his apostles wryte it. Thys poynt specyally muste Tyndale amonge other proue me by playne and euydent scrypture. For ellys were it ye wote well a great parell for any man to saye nay to goddys specyall byddynge / though that specyall byddyng were not specyfyed in scrypture / but yf god haue playnely spoken in [Page cclxxxi] A scrypture that he wyll neuer whyle he lyueth, eyther tell or bydde any other thynge then he hath all redy reueled or cō ­maunded in scrypture.

Now se you good readers how syke, how sore and how feble his argument is / by whyche he wolde proue vs that y ^e cheryte of the apostles droue them to put all necessary thyn­ges in wrytynge. But yet hadde there almoste one reason of hys passed me vnware / whiche yf I hadde lefte vntowched, Tyndale wolde haue sayed I hadde dissymyled [...] and lefte vnanswered his chyefe reason of all. For where as his feble argument before touched, was but the cause that droue the apostles to leue nothynge vnwryten: he hath yet one, that sheweth the cause why and wherfore god wolde hym selfe haue euery necessary thynge wryten, and that ye wote well B muste nedys be stronge / and therfore what strength is in it ye shall here. Thus he sayth.

Tyndale.

Now syr god hath made his lasie [...]nd euerlastynge testament, and no more byhynde then the apperynge of Cryst agayne. And bycause he wyll not styrre vp euery daye a new prophete with a new myracle, to cōferme new doctrine, or to call agayne the olde that was forgoten: therfore were all thynges necessary to saluacyon comprehended in scrypture euer to endure.

More.

If Tyndals bare worde be worthy to be taken for so greate authoryte, that what so euer he say men must byleue it, onely bycause Tyndale sayth it: then is this argument very sure and stronge / but than it is superfluouse & a great dele to longe. For then it sholde suffyse hym to saye, the apo­stles C haue lefte all thynge in wrytynge, and let all hys rea­sons alone. But surely yf Tyndale be no better then other men / so that as he wyll byleue no man without playne scrypture, no man wythout playne scrypture is boundē to byleue hym: then is thys argument more feble yet then the tother. For he shall neuer make it stronge, neyther by playne s [...]ryp­ture, nor good deduccyon, nor necessary cōsequense, nor any probable reason.

For fyrste how proueth he that all thynge is open. How proueth he that he vnderstandeth euery place in scrypture? euery place in Genesys, euery place in the prophetes, euery place in y ^e Psalter, euery place in saint Iohn̄s gospell, euery place in saint Poules pystles, euery place in y ^e Apocalipsys. Be all these thynges open to Tyndale? Is any man so mad [Page cclxxxii] to byleue hym therin vppon hys worde, bycause he boldely A sayth in many places of his vngraciouse bokes, that y ^e scrypture is easy to vnderstande / whych thyng he sayeth of an vngracyouse mynde, to make euery symple person bolde to take hym self for and interpreter.

But I dare be as bolde to say that the scripture; all be yt many places be playn, & in y ^e hardeste place good folke may take frute yf they play not as Tyndale doth, be bold vppon yt lyke blynde bayarde, & thynke it playn & opē / yet is it not so open but y ^t there is many a place in euery parte therof, so darke, & of such diffyculty / y ^t there neyther is nor I wene neuer was synnys y ^e apostles dayes, nor ꝑaduēture euery man amonge them neyther, y ^• durst haue ben so bold to say y ^t all thyng was so opē to him / but y ^t there may lye yet therein for all y ^e vnderstandyng y ^e men haue therof, many a great mystery B hyd that neuer shalbe clerely vnderstāden / tyll such tyme as god vppon the thynge done and shewed, shall by his spyryte promysed, sente, and assy [...]tent vnto his chyrche in the tymes conuenyente, and by god appoynted therunto, reuele yt / whyche thynges shall then be necessary poyntes, to be byleued, and nowe neyther necessarye to byleue, nor possyble to be thought vppon.

But when yt shall please god any suche thynges to do, shew, & reuele: he shall then sende no Luthers, nor no Tyndales, nor none Huskyns, nor no frere out of a nōnes bedde to preache yt / but he shall send suche holy messengers as he hath ben euer wonte about such besyn [...]sse to send, that shall not come with a false fayth, and euyll workes, and be accursed C out of Crystes chyrche / but wyth the trewe catholyque fayth, and holy lyuynge, and reuerent handelynge of holy scrypture, and some of them wyth many great miracles cō ­foundynge the false wonders of Antecriste / as the miracles that Moyses wrought cōfounded the meruayles that were wrought by the wychecrafte of the Egypciane iuglers. And he shall not sende suche fonde felowes as wolde be so sha­melesse wythout any miracle shewed, to bydde all the world byleue them vppon theyr bare word, in the vnderstandyng of holy scrypture, agaynste all holy sayntes and connynge doctours of .xv. hundred yere passed / and bere men in hande that all is open and playne, and proue yt by nothynge ellys but by y ^t there is no place of holy scripture so hard, but that them selfe can expowne yt in suche wyse that yt shall serue [Page cclxxxiii] A them shamefull for iestynge and raylynge agaynst god and all good men, agaynste all good workes, agaynst all rely­gyon, fastynge, prayour, deuocyon, sayntes, ceremonyes, and sacramentes / & to sette forth vyce in boldenesse of fayth, and to prayse lechery betwene freres and nōnes, and call yt matrymony, and thus make mokkes of holy scrypture so­lemnely, with such opē shamelesse abomynable blasphemy, that yf the zele of god were amonge men that shold be, such raylyng rybaldes that so mokke wyth holy scrypture, shold at euery suche exposycyon haue an hote iren thruste thorow theyr blasphemouse tonges.

Such false prophetes shall god as I saye sende none of his erand. But Tyndale cā not proue yt trew that he sayth, that all thinge ys yet so fully fynyshed, but that y ^e tyme may B come when god maye yet shew thynges whereof we yet no­thyng thynke, and yet peraduenture wryten of in the scryp­ture / and may yf he lyste do and shew also mo thynges yet, wherof nothynge is wryten for any worde that is wryten to the contrarye. And that bysy [...]e Crystes owne apperynge at the dome, there yet resteth some rekenynges to come / well & playnely appereth by scrypture both cōcernynge Tyndales great Mayster Antecryste, though Tyndale & Luther lyste lewdely to rayle wyth those holy places of scrypture / and also concernynge Ennoke and Hely. And therfore where Tyndale saythe,

Tyndale.

Bycause all is done saue the dome, and bycause god wyll not stere vppe euery daye a new prophete with a new myracle, to conferme new doctrine or to call C agayne the olde that was forgoten: therfore were all thynges necessary to saluacyon comprehended in scripture euen to endure.

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Lo now haue we herd hym say yt / & now lakke we no more but euen to here hym proue yt. For when Tyndale proueth not that the thynge is so done in dede / but layeth vs onely the causes for whyche he sayth god caused yt to be done: in this doth he nothynge ellis but tell vs what god shold haue done yf he hadde taken hym to counsayle.

Tyndale proueth not that god hath shewed hym that all is done saue onely the day of dome / whyche he muste proue or ellys we wyll denye yt hym. Nor he proueth not that god hath shewed hym y ^t he wolde not sterre vp yf nede were euery daye a new prophete, and that wyth new miracles to, [...] [Page] [Page] [Page cclxxxiiii] rather then bynde hym selfe that he sholde neuer teche any A thynge more, or haue hys olde doctryne forgoten eyther. whyche thynge he must proue, or els wyll we denye it hym / syth god hath taken more labour and greater payne for his chyrche then that. For he hath shedde hys blood for it, and myghte do all that wyth the lest worde of hys mouth.

And we saye also that god hath dayly stered vp & dayly doth sterre vp new prophetes in sundry partes of hys catholyke chyrche, holy doctours, and preachers, and faythfull men [...] and good lyuers / for whom bothe quycke and dede he doth shewe myracles in hys catholyke chyrche, and therby approueth the fayth and workes that they lyued and dyed in, as he sterred vp prophetes amonge the iewes in sundry ages for all the myracles done by Moyses / and doeth not so for no chyrche of heretykes. B

Nor he proueth not that y ^e poyntes of fayth muste nedys haue fallen awaye, but yf they had ben wrytē. whych thyng he must proue vs / for ellys wyll we boldely denye it, and go nere to proue the contrary. For we se that the chyrche hath kepte dyuerse thynges wythout scrypture thys .xiii.C. yere, and as it is thought .ii.C. yere afore / and is yet as lykely to kepe it as many mo, and twyse as many mo yf the worlde laste so longe.

Now haue they be kepte so longe eyther by man, or by y ^e deuyll, or ellys by god. And yf Tindale say that eyther man or deuyll haue kepte them all thys whyle: we maye be bold to tell hym that then was god as able to kepe them, as was any of those both / and neded no more scrypture therto, then neded eyther man or deuyll. C

Tyndale proueth vs not neyther that when the thynges were wryten they were therby sure as he sayth to endure for euer. For he proueth not by scrypture that y ^e scrypture shall endure for euer. For though the scrypture saye that y ^e worde of god shall laste for euer, and that there shall not therof the leste letter be loste: yet is that ment of the sonne of god and of the mater, & of the worde vnwryten, and not of the wor­des wryten in scrypture / excepte none of saynt Poules epy­stles be loste, or that suche as be lost was no scrypture, or y ^• in those pystles were no letters.

Nor Tyndale hath not proued that the scrypture is so clerely wryten, but that god nedeth as well to sterre vp pro­phetes with miracles for the declaracion of y ^e trouth therof, [Page cclxxxv] A whyle the false exposytours be so contencyouse / as he shold haue neded for the teachynge, kepynge, and confyrmacyon of the poyntes of fayth vnwryten. And as I byfore sayde euē so he doth. And thus ye se that these wordes are to Tyndale very lytle worth. But then sayeth he farther.

Tyndale.

By the scrypture the counsayles generall, and not by open myracle, haue concluded suche thynges as were in them determined / as storyes make mencyon.

More.

Lette Tyndale brynge forth one story that sayeth as he sayth, and then [...]ette hym tell vs the tale agayne. I make my selfe very sure, that he shall fynde no story that shall say that the generall counsayles in theyr cōclusyons, regarded no miracles but onely scrypture. For he shall fynd in the storyes B that the good holy fathers that were in dyuerse of the generall counsayles (of whom there be many that all Cristē people honour and worshyppe for sayntes) had many thynges to moue them to determyne and conclude agaynste he­retykes / of whych thynges the scrypture was one and was not all.

For when the Arrianes and y ^e catholykes were in debate vppon the vnderstandynge of the scryptures (as the catho­lyques be wyth these heretykes now) the catholyques dyd not onely se then y ^t the heretykes wrested & mysse cōstrewed the scrypture (as we se that these heretyques myche more mysse wreste yt now) but they saw also that y ^e comē fayth of the catholyke chyrche, was receyued & byleued byfore that heresye bygon / and beynge very sure by the promise of god, C that yf that fayth hadde ben false the spirite that god sent vnto his chyrch, wold neuer haue sufferd the catholike chyrch, the corps of Crysten people, the mystycall bodye of Cryste, of fall into that bylyefe / they were thereby wyth that fayt [...] wryten by the fynger of god in theyr crystē hartes, very sure that the Arrianes were heretyques / and so sholde they haue ben though neuer word of scrypture hadde ben wryten / and sholde haue concluded agaynste the Arrianes in lyke wyse as they dyd.

They saw also that god dyd miracles in hys catholyque chyrche, and sufferd none amonge the Arrianes / sauynge in the takynge of vengeaunce vppon them to theyr payne and shame, as when Arri [...]s guttes fell out of his bely into the draught / (as we dayly se that he doth, and euer shall se [Page cclxxxvi] that he shall do in hys catholyke chyrche / and suffreth none A to be done amonge all the scoulkes of heretykes, nor neuer shall suffer tyll the dome nere approche, but onely in dete­ctynge theyr wykkednesse and bryngynge them to the fyre / as our lady by miracle brought Berquyne of late at Parise) thys thynge vndowtedly not a lytle confermed the fayth, & made the chyrche boldely conclude agaynste the Arrians. And this thynges appereth well in storyes very old and autentyque. And Tyndale shall I am sure neuer brynge vs forth his stories, saynge that the generall coūsayles hadde no regarde to miracles. And yf he wyll saye that the storyes tell that there was none open miracles done at the generall counsayles. yet I wene shall he fynde none such storyes neyther. And yf he wyll say y ^t the storyes do not tell of any open B miracles done at the generall coōsayles / thē shall he tell vs a tale to lytle purpo [...]e. For surely so many as were shewed bysyde, yt was a thynge that neded not. But then goeth he farther and sayth.

Tyndale.

And by the same scryptures we knowe whyche counsayles were trewe and whyche false.

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Thys is a pratye poynt lo. For now may ye se for what cause he sayth that the generall counsayles made theyr de­termynacyons by scrypture and not by miracle / bycause he wolde haue yt seme that there were nothynge of goddes spiryte wurkynge wyth the generall counsales, but onely the wytte and affeccyons of men / so that he wolde as appereth C playnely by this worde, haue them serue all of nought, but euery heretyque lefte at lybertye to saye nay to them all.

For he sayth that by the scrypture we knowe whyche of those counsayles were trewe and whyche false. But where he sayth we knowe: I wolde wytte of hym whyche we he meaneth / whyche of his hundred new sectes he calleth hys we. For they agre so euyll to gether, that y ^e thyng whych the tone sayth that by the scripture he knoweth for trew, the to­ther sayth that by the scrypture he knoweth for false.

Tyndales mayster Mar [...]en Luther and all the sectes in Almayne, call for a generall counsayle. Now wolde I wyt to what purpose, yf all that were concluded therin sholde be neuer the surer / but that euery frowarde fole maye as well after as he myghte before, say that he knoweth by scrypture [Page cclxxxvii] A that the counsayle was false, and all that was determyned therin was nought. Thus myghte an Arryan an erraunt heretyke saye now, that he knoweth by scrypture y ^t all was false that was determyned in the counsayles agaynste the Arrians of olde. Saynt Poule wyll that when one speketh / the remenaunte that is the hole congregacyon shall iudge. As yet at thys daye yf a preacher preache heresye / god hath by the fayth wryten in crysten mēnys hartes, made y ^e people able to knowe hym for nought / excepte it be a false preacher wyth a false company, wyllyngly drawen togyther, and fal­len from the chyrche / whyche false preacher and his compa­nye is euer able to be iudged by the hole chyrch remaynyng styll in the formare fayth. And now wyll father Tyndale y ^t euery obstynate heretyke, euery pratelynge fole, euery sma­terer B in scrypture / shall be iudge ouer all the generall coun­sayles, and ouer all the hole corps of crystendome, to tell them all that hym selfe vnderstandeth the scrypture better then they all. Is not this we [...]e ye a godly wyse way? Then goeth he ferther yet and sayth.

Tyndale.

And by the same scrypture shall we yf any new questyon aryse, determyne it also. For Abraam answered the ryche man: They haue Moyses and the pro­phetes, let them here them / and sayd not, they haue the scrybes and the phary­sees, whom they sholde here preachynge out of the sete of theyr owne doctryne without scrypture.

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I had lytell went that Tyndale wolde haue brought in this poynt of Abraam, Lazarus, and the ryche glotō in hell. C For Tyndale seeth well inough that though that same La­zer was not raysed by Abraam, and sent vnto those folke at hys requeste: yet was another Lazare raysed afterward by Cryste, & sent amonge men agayne at good folkes request / where though he came for the glory of god and for the shew of y ^e godhed of his onely son / yet is it no dowte but though hys wordes be not wryten, he dyd in that poynte also mych good vnto menne of the meane sorte / though some suche as were obdurate in malice, as were some pharisees, or droūde in the credens of theyr false secte as were some saduceyes, byleued no more hym then Moyses / but in that poynt mys­constred the tone and mokked or hated the tother.

And Tindale seeth also full well, y ^t those wordes of Abraā nothynge touche the new testament, nor nothynge that this [Page cclxxxviii] question hangeth vppon. For those wordes were spoken by A Abraam peraduenture longe byfore Crystes commynge, & and at the leste byfore any worde of the new testament wryten. And therfore though they myghte be drawen to touche the tradycyons whyche the false pharasees gaue vnto the Iewes: yet could they not be drawen to touch the tradycy­ons whych the trew spiryte of god by Cristes promyse, hath geuen vnto hys chyrche. And that all those be wryten / Tyndall seeth full well those wordes of Abraam, proue nothing at all. And therfore yt is to me more then meruayle, that he ys not ashamed to lay those wordes for this purpose.

For where he sayeth that euery new questyon that maye aryse, we shall determyne by scripture: ye se your selfe very well he speketh of an vngracyouse purpose / wyllynge to bryng in his poysened heresyes vnder that ptexte, syth that B he knoweth that the scrypture proueth not the perpetuall virgynyte of our lady, whyche he wolde haue no man bounden to byleue / and also concernynge the sacrament hym self sayth is but brede, and that there ought none honour to be done thereto / and falsely defendeth the tone by the wordes of [...]uyll constrewed scrypture, and the tother bycause yt ys no [...] commaunded in scrypture.

And yet se ye farther that he speketh as though he herde not his owne voyce. For he sayd afore that by the scrypture we iudge the counsayles. And then how can any thynge be determyned by scrypture / when of y ^e ryght vnderstandynge therof there cā neuer any determinate ende be made, though all Cristendome sholde come to gether and agre theron, but that euery folyshe heretyque may saye that all they vnder­stode C yt wronge, and hym selfe onely ryght. Thys is a substancyall reason of Tyndale be ye sure. But bycause he wyll that wyth scripture the generall coūsayles must be iudged: what scrypture alledged the apostles for theyr deter­mynacyon in the .xv. chapyter of the actes, where they in theyr counsayle sayde, & by theyr pystle wrote, y ^e holy goost & we haue sene yt good, to put no more burden vppon you, then these necessary thynges / that is wyt that you abstayne from thynges offred to idolys, and from blood, & all thynge that ys strangled, and from fornycacyon / from whyche thynges yf ye kepe your selfes ye shall do well.

what scripture layed they for thys generall counsayle of theyrs. For though there were scripture in the old testamēt, [Page cclxxxix] A that forbode these thynges and other to: yet was there no scrypture wherby they concluded those thynges to be kepte and obserued partely for euer, partely for a tyme, rather then the other commaundemētes of the law. was not the authoryte thereof by the reason of Crystes worde: He that hereth you hereth me / whych worde hadde as great strēgth byfore yt was wryten, as euer yt hadde synnes.

Now this same authoryte hath Crystes chyrche assem­bled in the generall counlayles / and the same spiryte enspy­reth them, and the same wordes of Crist byndeth his flokke to obay them that bounde them to obay his apostles.

Tyndale.

Nay sayth Tyndale, not so. when M. More alledged, he that hereth you hereth me / and also this, If any mā here not the chyrh ta [...]e hym for an he B then / concludynge that we muste byleue what so euer is shauen in all that he affyrmeth wythout scrypture or myracle: I wolde fayne witte in what fygure that syllogysme is made.

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I wold fayne with of Tyndale in what place of my boke he fyndeth that I make that conclusyon / wyth whyche yt pleaseth hym to bylye me to swete his owne answere wyth. For I neuer concluded nor sayde that we were bounden to byleue all that is shauē in all that euer he sayth. But I then sayd and yet I say, that these wordes of our sauiour Criste, who so hereth you hereth me / were no more proper cōmaundement to bynde any man to byleue the apostles, then to byleue the whole catholyque chyrche and generall counsayls, that represent that whole body of the catholique chirch / and C that they were not spokē to the apostles onely, no more then the holy goost was promysed by Cryste to be sent vnto the apostles onely. And Criste no more promysed to send the holy goost vnto thapostles onely / then he promysed to be with the apostles onely, all the days vnto the ende of the worlde.

Now these wordes of Criste, if any mā here not y ^e chirch, take hym for an hethen: euery man well wotech that thys is manifestly spokē not of the apostles onely for theyr tyme, but of the chirch as longe as y ^e world shall laste. For so long shall the chirch endure, do these heretikes what so euer they can to the contrary. And as yt is trew of euery partyculare chirche and the gouernours therof, as long as yt swarueth not from y ^e whole body of y ^e chirch vnyuersall: so is it mych more properly ment of the whole vnyuersale chirche yt self / [Page ccxc] and of the counsayles generall representynge that hole chyrche, A wherof euery pertyculer chyrche is but a member.

And therfore where as Tyndale sayth he wolde fayne fynde in what fygure the syllogysme is made, whyche he sayth I conclude: he muste go lyghte a candle and seke vp that hym selfe / for it is hys owne syllogysme and not myne, for hym selfe maketh that conclusyon and not I.

But my syllogisme is thys. Euery crysten man refusyng to here, byleue, and obaye, the chyrche / is to be taken as an heretyke and an hethen. But so it is that Tyndale beynge a crysten man, and takynge vppon hym in the vnderstādyng of s [...]rypture, to controll and condempne the chyrche / refu­seth to here, byleue, and obaye the chyrche: ergo Tyndale is to be taken as an hethen man and an heretyke.

Thys syllogysme is myne. And thys syllogysme yf Tyndale B wolde fayne wyt in what fygure it is made: he shall fynde it in y ^e fyrst fygure, & the thyrd mode / sauyng y ^t the mynor caryeth his profe with hym, whych wold ellys in y ^e same fygure and the same mode haue made another syllogysme.

Now knytteth he vp all thys gere wyth another syllo­gysme of hys owne makynge. And in what fygure he ma­keth that, lette hym tell that can / for surely that can I not. These are hys wordes.

Tyndale.

Crystes dyscyples taughte Crystes doctryne, consermyng it with myracles / that it myghte be knowen for goddes and not the yrs. And euyn so muste the chyrche that I wyll byleue / shew a myracle, or brynge autentyke scrypture that is come from the apostles that confyr [...]d it with myracles.

More. C

Now maye I be bolde to make the conclusyon of hys argument for hym. For syth he goeth aboute in hys boke to teche not hym selfe but other that shall reade hys boke: hys conclusyō can be nother, but that no man sholde byleue any chyrche wythout myracle or autentyke scrypture. wherof the cause is bycause he wyll not otherwyse byleue any. Let hym put that in fygure when he can, and set there to y ^e cause that moueth hym therto, to byleue no chyrch wythout scrypture or myracle / and yet wyll all togyther wyth .xvi. syllogysmes brynge hym shorte home.

For when he sayth that Crystes dyscyples taught his doctryne, confyrmynge it wyth miracles / and so must y ^e chirch that he wyll byleue, or ellys brynge autentyque scrypture [...] [Page ccxci] A I saye that he muste proue the thynge y ^t he so often sayth, & neuer proueth, nor neuer can / that is that the apostles pro­ued euery poynt by a specyall miracle. whych poynt I haue reproued byfore / and yet I aske hym now agayne what miracle wrought the apostles for euery poynte of theyre doc­tryne in theyr letter, that I spake of mencyoned in the .xv. chapiter of the Actes / or where is yt wryten y ^t they wrought any one for them all? I saye also that the catholyque chirch bryngeth miracles for theyr doctryne as y ^e apostles dyd for theyres / in that that god ceaceth no yere to worke miracles in his catholyque chyrche many and wonderfull, bothe for hys holy men quykke and dede, and for the doctryne y ^t these heretykes unpugne / as images, relyques, & pylgrymages, and the blessed sacrament of the auter. And these so many & B in so many places / that these heretykes them self can not denye yt, but are shamefully dreuen to saye lyke the Iewes, y ^t yt is the deuyll that doth them.

I say therfore farther y ^e Tyndale doth but mokke & trifle / when he sayeth he wyll byleue no chirch without miracle or autētike scripture. For he refuseth to byleue y ^e chirch though it bryng both twayne. For yf we bryng autētyque scripture: he wyll not let to say y ^t it is not autentique, as he playeth by the Machabees, & his master be saynt I amys pystle. If he denye not, then wyll he saye that the chirche vnderstan­deth yt wronge / so that the chyrch hath nede to brynge my­racles, to proue hym that the scrypture is the scrypture / and that they all to gether vnderstande yt better then he alone, as well as that the chyrch is the chirch. And yet when the catholyque C chirch bryngeth miracles wrought by god in yt, & for yt, and y ^e plentuously / & no chirche any one but yt: then sayth Tyndale that they be all wrought by the deuyll. And thus ye may se when he hath all sayde / he neyther regardeth miracle nor scripture neyther, but mokketh both twayne.

Now haue ye herd all that I fynde Tyndale answere, agaynst suche thynges as I layed byfore in my dialoge / to proue that all thynge necessary is not wryten in scrypture. And then what profe he cā make for hys owne parte, to pue that all is wryten, ye haue herd all redy / wherin how lytle pyth there is, euery chylde maye perceyue.

And then may ye surely reken, that syth thys is hys laste boke, and the place in whyche he maketh a specyall tytle for the mater: he bryngeth in all the beste that he cā fynde. And [Page ccxcii] yf he fynde any thynge ellyswhere wryten by his mayster, A or hym selfe, or any other of hys felowes for that purpose, whych he leueth out here: ye may be faste and sure he seeth well [...] he sholde haue but shame to brynge yt in. As the wor­des of Criste: Ins [...]te scriptur [...], quoniam i [...]s [...] testimonium [...]hibēt de me. Loke you in y ^t scriptures for they bere witnesse of me. which thyng no man denyeth / but we deny them that nothyng witnesseth Cryste ellys but the scrypture alone. For our sauy­our hym selfe whyche sayde those wordes, sayde that saynte Iohn̄ also bare wytnesse of hym bysyde the scrypture / & that hys father bare wytnesse of hym bysyde the scrypture / and that hys owne workes bare wytnesse of hym bysyde y ^e scry­pture / and that the holy goost at hys commynge bare wyt­nesse of hym bysyde the scrypture / and hys apostles (as hym selfe sayd they shold / bare wytnesse of hym besyde the scryp­ture. B And now y ^t all euer they all witnessed of Cristes wyll to be necessaryly byleued or d [...]ne, is synnys those wordes of Cryste spoken by his apostles wryten in the scripture: this seeth Tyndale well that he must proue vs by scripture / and not bynde vs onely to y ^e scripture by those wordes of Criste: Serche you y ^• scrypture / whyche were spoken of Cryste by­fore all the new scrypture, and sholde serue to strayne vs to proue all thynge by the olde scrypture, & to byleue nothyng farther then we fynde writen in the olde testament. And therfore Tyndale hadde yet some witte when he lefte those wordes oute.

And lyke wyse he saw that yt hadde not ben to purpose to brynge in those wordes, whyche some of that secte bryng forth full solemnely, y ^t ys to wyt the wordes of saynt Iohn̄ C in the Apocalyps, where he sayth: If any man any thynge sette to these thynges / god shall putte vppon hym the pla­ges wrytē in thys boke. And also yf any man any thyn [...] my nyshe of the wordes of y ^e bokes of thys prophecye / god shall take from hym hys parte of the boke of lyfe, and of the holy cytye, and of those thynges that are wryten in this boke.

By whyche wordes he meaneth not that no man shall neuer after be so hardy to wryte any prophecye, yf euer it please god any other thynge to reucle. And mych lesse he meaneth to put god to sylence, that he shall neuer any other thynge reuele yf hym lyste / nor sayth not that god hath she­wed hym that he neuer wyll. But he gyueth a charge th [...]t men vse dylygence and treuth in the wrytynge out of hys [Page ccxciii] A owne. And mych lyke charge all be it not of lyke authoryte / haue other wryters gyuen for theyr owne bookes as it is to se in the ende of y ^e cronycle of Eusebius translated I trowe by saynt Hierom / and in saynte Ireneus workes the same charge gyuen in lykewyse, wyth mych lyke adiuracyon ioy­ned there vnto.

And therfore as solempnely as some of hys bretherne brynge forth these wordes of saynt Iohn̄: Tyndale saw yet that they wolde not serue, and therfore he lefte them out.

Now laye some folke for thys purpose, the wordes of Moyses in the .xii. of the deuteronomy, where he sayth [...] The thynge that I cōmaunde the, that thynge onely shalte thou do to god / and thou shalte neyther any thyng adde nor my­nysshe. whych wordes be yet in thys mater lesse to y ^• purpose, B then the wordes byfore rehersed of the apocalyps. For who so loke in y ^e place, and rede ouer the chapyter: he shall se that Moyses sayed those wordes onely for fere y ^t he had / leste syth he hadde on goddes behalfe commaunded them some certeyne sacryfyces vnt [...] god, the people prone to ido­latrye, wolde adde of theyr owne myndes, eyther some sa­cryfyce vnto idols / or vnto god some kynde of suche abomynable sacryfyce, as the gentyls offered vnto theyr idoles. And for fere therof / he sayed vnto them: Thou shalte do vnto god that thynge onely that I commaunde the. And thou shalte neyther any thynge adde nor mynysshe. But he tolde the cause before & sayed: when the lorde thy god shall haue destroyed before thy face y ^e gentyls, vppon whō thou shalte entre to take them in thy possessyon / and whan thou shalte C haue them in thy possessyon, and shalte dwelle in the lande that belōged vnto them: beware that thou folow not them, after that they shalbe bythy comyng in, ouerturned / beware I saye that thou seke not after theyr ceremonyes and saye: As these peple were wont to wourshyp theyr goddes / euyn so wyll I wourshyppe [...]o. Thou shalte not do lykewyse to y ^e lorde thy god. For they haue done vnto theyr goddes all the abomynacyons that our lorde hateth / offerynge theyr owne sonnes and doughters, and burnynge them vp in fyre. And then setteth Moyses there vnto y ^e wordes before rehersed, wyllynge them that they shall neyther lene vndone any of those ceremonyes and sacryfyces that he had commaūded, nor adde any newe kynde of theyr [...] mynde / leste they myghte happe to fall to those kyndes of sacrifyce of the pay­nyms, [Page ccxciiii] that were abomynable afore the face of god. A

Now what serue these wordes of Moyses to our psent purpose. For fyrste yf Moyses had not ment as I say, & as the circūstaunce of the terte sheweth / but hadde vtterly ment to commaunde them that they sholde nothynge adde at all in no maner thynge vnto those thynges that he commaunded them hym selfe as the wordes sowne: then hadde he forbo­den theym to byleue or obaye any prophete that euer sholde come after hym / excepte onely the prophete of whom he prophecyed and bad they sholde here hym. And yet myght they thynke that prophete restrayned by those wordes, in suche thynges as sholde perteyne to the seruyce of god.

Also yf that Moyses had not ment as I say, but pcysely forboden thē to adde any thyng at all vnto his instytucyōs: they myghte neuer haue added any new feste of holy dayes B vnto those that god hadde by Moyses appoynted them all redy. And then how myghte y ^e feste called festum encc [...]niorū haue ben instytuted afterwarde, whych was longe after Moyses dayes instytuted and very sol [...]mnly obserued / and god ther with so well content, that our sauyour honoured it with his owne blessed presence hym selfe.

But now suppose that Moyses hadde hym selfe ment as strayghtly as theyr vnreasonable construccyon wold strayn hys wordes to: what wolde all that serue vnto theyr pur­pose in our mater. May crysten men do nothynge but that that Moyses bad / bycause the iewes myghte do nothynge but that that Moyses bad? where were then bycome the sa­crament of baptysme, and the sacramē [...] of the auter? ye say they, but thys proueth that the chyrche sholde adde nothyng C of theyr owne mynde vnto goddes worde / for suche a note in the byble some haue set solemnely in the margent vppon those wordes. But I dare be bolde to tell theym agayne, that they may better scrape that note out agayne / then vse it vnto this purpose. For fyrst those wordes proueth no such thynge at all, but yf Moyses had ment as straytely as they strayne hym / in whyche I haue proued that they take hym wronge.

Secundely I say that yf Moyses hadde ment as precy­sely as they mysse take hym: yet hadde yt touched but the iewes / and vs crysten men nothynge at all.

Thyrdely I say that in the thynges whyche Tyndale reproueth [Page ccxcv] A the sacramentes of the chirche / the chirche hath ad­ded nothynge vnto the worde of god. For we say that they be the worde of god well wryten in holy scrypture as hath ben playnely proued them / and that hym self well knoweth, but that he lysteth to play hys parte and saye nay styll, be y ^e profe neuer so clere.

Fourthly we say that any such thynge as y ^e chirche vseth or byleueth as necessary, though yt be not wryten: yet adde they therby nothynge vnto goddes wordes. For we say that yt is goddes worde vnwriten, and of as great authoryte as ys his worde wryten / as the thynges that partely were de­lyuered to the chirch by the apostles, and partely taught vnto the chyrche by that holy spiryte of god, that was by Cry­stes promyse sente vnto the chyrche to be wyth yt for euer [...] to B teache yt and lede yt into euery trouth.

Fynally for conclusyon to proue you the foly of that allegacyon: ye know well all our questyon is no more but whyther the apostles lefte euery necessary thynge in wrytynge, as Tyndale affermeth. And now consyder you whither this be a good profe or not / though Moyses wordes were taken as strayght as these mē mysse take thē. were not this wene ye well argued. Moyses forbode the iewys to adde or my­nyshe to or from any thynge that he commaūded: ergo the apostles haue lefte no necessary thynge vnwryten.

Bysyde that this argument is very folysh in yt selfe: yet haue I byfore at large opened you the lakkes therof, where I answered Tyndale concernynge hys hygh reason of the apostles cheryte, compellynge them to leue nothynge vn­wryten. C And bysydes that one playne dyfference ys there, that Moyses was commaunded to wryte, and the apostles were not commaunded at all / though god alowed, assysted, and aspired them hys grace therin, as he dothe many good men in many good wurkes besyde any commaundement.

And Moyses also commaūded to wryte as he was / was not commaūded yet to putte all to gether in wry [...]ynge, that the people sholde be bounden to do or byleue, by any texte y ^e Tyndale hath shewed vs yet, or euer shall shew I suppose.

How be it as for this allegacyō, though some other haue thought yt gay: Tyndale yet ꝑceyued it for such as he saw well wolde not serue hym / and therfore he lefte it out.

yet are there some, & amonge them frere Barons / y ^t layeth for y ^• purpose the wordes of our sauyour wryten in the .xxiii. [Page ccxcvi] of Mathew, where he sayth, Uppon the cheyre of Moyses, A are now set the scrybes and the pharyseys. All thynges that euer they say vnto you obserue them and do them / but the thynges that they do, do not you. For they bynde vnporta­ble burdayns and lay them vppon other mennes shoulders, and wyll not so mych as wyth a fynger of theyr owne, ones styrre them. By these wordes wolde frere Barons that there sholde nothynge be taught but onely scrypture. And ouer that he wolde by these wordes, that a man myghte breke all the lawes that the hole chyrche maketh besyde the expresse preceptes of god conteyned in the scrypture wythout any scruple of conscyence / so that he do it secretely where there were no weke conscyence of feble faythed folke offended. where as vndowted those wordes neyther proue hys pur­pose in the fyrst, and proue clene agaynst hys purpose in the B seconde. For begynnynge wyth the seconde / those wordes playnely declare that bycause our sauyour bothe then intended to shewe, and often before had shewed, that the scrybes & pharyseys were nought: yet lest the people myghte happe to thynke that he wolde therfore they shold be set at nought and not obayed / he gaue them not warnynge onely but also playne commaundement, that syth they were in the autho­ryte and occupyed the place of Moyses that gaue the law, & were the rulers and gouernours of the people, they sholde obay them and fulfyll that they commaunded them. And leste the people sholde take hym as frere Barons doth / and wene bycause he spake of Moyses chayre, that therfore they sholde obaye hym in nothyng ellys but as far as they shold rede in Moyses bokes / and vppon euery thynge that they C sholde be boden, sholde saye shew me that wryten in Moy­ses bokes: Cryste therfore commaunded them y ^t they sholde obserue and fulfyll all theyr commaundementes. Not mea­nynge by that generaltye that they sholde obaye any com­maundement that by god were forbe [...]en, nor to set goddes law asyde for mennys tradycyons as hym selfe sayed in the xv. of Mathew: but forbedynge them to refuse to fulfyll y ^e cōmaundement of theyr rulers, wherof there were no men­cyon made in scrypture, where the commaundement tended to vertue, good maners, or goddes honour. Now the wor­des of saynt Austayn whyche frere Barons bryngeth in, do nothynge proue the poynt that Barons wolde proue by thē. For he wolde haue it seme that saynt Austayne taketh those [Page ccxcvii] A wordes of Crystes as hym selfe doeth. But saynt Austayne there by the allegorye of y ^e chayre of Moyses occupyed by y ^e scrybes and pharaseys: expowneth those wordes of a prea­cher that is not the very trew shepeherd y ^t in his preachyng seketh nothynge but the profyte of the shepe and the glory of Cryste / but that is a mercennary preacher and an hyred, whyche seketh hys owne temporall aduauntage and com­modyte. Of whom saynte Austayne gyueth warnynge that yet euen suche preachers nought as they be / yet for y ^e whyle that they be suffred to preache, in all that they saye well and accordynge to the law of god, we sholde here them & alowe them therin, and lerne to lyue therafter. But on the tother syde, yf they wolde when they haue begon wyth good thyn­ges for a countenaunce to gete them in credence / then [...] B of suche thynges and preache of that they seke for that is to wyt fantasyes of theyr owne inuencyon, and for them selfe and theyr owne commodyte: therin be they not to be herd or byleued. And thys is the mynde of saynte Austayne as euery man that wyll cōsyder hys wordes in the place where they be wrytē, the .xlvi. tretyce vppon saynt Iohn̄, shall very playnely perceyue. And therby shall he that there redeth thē as playnely perceyue, that those wordes of saynt Austayne brought forth by Barns, do nothynge proue Barns pur­pose / that is to wyt, y ^t those wordes of Cryste do dyscharge euery mannes conscyence of obedyence vnto any precep­tes, lawes, or tradycyons of men, other then be wryten in scrypture.

For the thynge that saynt Austayne there sayth: dyuers C holy men entreatyng the same wordes in the lyke allegorye of doctryne and preachynge, do saye and confyrme in [...]ykewyse / and neuer wyse man wolde saye otherwyse. But the thynge that Barns sayth / neuer was there yet eyther good man or wyse man that wolde agree. For those wordes of Cryste sauynge by waye of the allegorye, seme not so properly to pertayne to techynge of the scrybes and pharaseys, as to theyr cōmaundemētes and byddynges / as well appereth by the wordes folowynge, where he byddeth that they shold obserue and do all the thynges that they saye to them. And that he sholde meane not onely the preceptes wryten in the law, but also theyr other commaundementes besyde, suche as were not superstycyouse or vnlawfull to be kepte: is clerely declared by the wordes of Cryste folowynge, where he [Page ccxcviii] sayeth in thys wyse, For they bynde importable burdayns A and laye them on other folkes shoulders, but them self wyll not put a f [...]nger of theyr owne therto. As though he wolde saye Syth they syt vppō Moyses chayre, and occupye hys place and be your gouernours: do ye all that they cōmaūde you all though the burdayns that they bynde and laye on your shoulder be so great & heuy, that they seme in a maner unportable / but do not as they do. For they wyll them selfe leue them all vndone, and not set onys a fynger to y ^• doyng of them. But I warne you do not you so.

I know ryght well that those wordes maye be well expow­ned on the tother fashyon afore remembred, vnderstandyng in the allegory by the chayre of Moyses, the doctryne & law of Moyses. And then may those greuouse importable bur­dayns be called the burdens of the olde lawe / wyth whyche B saynt Peter and the apostles were not contente, that some other wolde lade the crysten people commynge vnto Criste / saynge that neyther them selfe nor theyr fathers coulde bere t [...]em. Thus I know well men may expowne those wordes, and good men [...] holy men, and connynge men so haue done / and other in lykewise after the maner that I now do, & both twayne haue therein done very well. For one texte maye be dyuersely in dyuerse senses expowned [...] though Luther and Tyndale wyll haue now but one, tyll a nother may better make for theyr owne purpose / for then they wyll not let to make fyftene. But though those wordes may be so expow­ned: yet as I sayde yt appereth well, that the very proper sense is of theyr owne tradycyons bysyde Moyses lawe / in that Cryste sayde that the scrybes and pharasyes dyd bynde C greuouse burdayns and importable, and lay them on other mēnys shoulders. For euery man well woteth that neyther the scrybes nor the pharysees, dyd bynde and lay on mēnys shou [...]ders the burdens of the lawe, but our lorde hym selfe. And whyche at that tyme whyle he wolde yet haue thē kept, he wolde not haue dyspraysed, wyth callyng them greuous and importable / though the apostles dyd afterwarde when tyme cam to caste them of.

And therfore as I haue sayde, those wordes of Crystes were properly ment of the tradycyons & commaundemētes of the scrybes & pharasees them selfe bysyde the law / whych thinges our sauiour there cōma [...] ̄ded to be kept & obserued, where so euer they were not superstycyouse, nor contraryed [Page ccxcix] A not the lawes and commaundementes of god / but were tendynge to his honour, or to vertue, or to the comen weale [...] for the place and offyce that the scrybes and pharysees kepte, though them selfe were nought. And theyr good tradycyōs dyd neuer Cryste dysprayse / though he somtyme dyspensed wyth his dyscyples concernynge them and the law to.

Now there is no man I thynke so madde [...] when he dow­teth not but the seruauntes in a mannys housholde are so bounden to fulfyll and obaye theyr maysters lyefull com­maundementes, that yf they wolde refuse at hys byddynge to knele downe and say certayne praoyurs with hym to bed warde all the whole house to gether, tyll he shold shew them some such commaundement in scrypture / they were well worthy to go to the deuyll for theyr proude dysobedyence in B the defence of theyr false euangelycall fredome: he that douteth not I saye of thys (of whyche I thynke no good man douteth) can not be so madde to thynke that neyther bys­shoppe, nor pope, nor whole generall counsayle, nor all cry­sten people to gether, though they were all assembled vp­pon a playne, were able so to commaunde so myche as a generall processyon vppon any certayne daye / but that any lewde lyther losell that lyste not to ryse, may lye styll in hys bedde, & say he is not bounden to obay mannys tradycyōs, nor nothyng but scrypture except for auoydyng of slaūder / and then there shalbe so many at y ^e processyon that he shall not be myssed, & yf he be, some man may say he is syke.

Uppon these wordes cōcernynge theyr tradycyons, wold I not haue ben so long / sauyng that both frere Barns rial­ly C triumpheth wyth them agaynste the lawes of the chyrch, and also that Tyndale in his answere to the .xviii. chapyter of my dyaloge, bryngeth in the same for y ^e lyke entent. which entent how properly they proue bytwene them both, now ye may partely se / and yet farther shall by goddes grace when I shall hereafter god wyllynge, come to touche the place in Tyndales answere to me.

But now that I haue proued that those wordes of Crist make not onely nothynge for they purpose agaynst y ^e lawes of Crystes chirche / but also make playnely for the lawes a­gaynste theyr purpose: I shall not nede longe to tary you for the tother poynte / that is to wytte, to proue you y ^t those wordes of Cryste nothynge make agaynste our pryncypall purpose. For they nothynge proue y ^t euery necessary thynge [Page ccc] is wryten / though we constre Crystes wordes not of the tradycyons, A of whyche they be properly spoken in d [...]de, but of the law of Moyses / and set therunto the wordes of saynte Austayne also, wyth whyche Barns wolde seme so well to furnyshe his mater. For fyrst as for Crystes wordes yf they hadde ben playne & expressely these, what so euer the scrybis and pharysees bydde you do y ^t is wryten in the law of Moyces, I warne you se that you do yt: yet whyle he sayde not farther, & I warne you byleue them not in any thyng ellys / these wordes were no profe y ^t all to gether was writen, wher in the peple shold byleue them no more thē y ^t all thyng wher in they sholde byleue them, was wryten in Moyses bokes. whyche yf yt were taken so / then were all that they myghte teache the people writen in Esaie [...] Hieremie, or Ezechiel, by Cristes worde wyped oute of credens. B

Therfore by those wordes expownynge them of the doc­tryne of Moyses, and not of the tradycyons of the scrybes and pharysees / yet is there nothynge proued that they were not to be byleued in any thynge that they sholde teache by­syde Moyses, nor bysyde all y ^e scrypture neyther. Nor those wordes of Cryste be not contrary, but that there myghte be yet at those dayes trewthes kepte amonge the people by tradycyon from the begynnynge, whyche the scrybes and pha­rysees bothe myght preache and remember to the people as they myght the scrypture, and be therin byleued. And ther­fore our sauyour sayd not, byleue thē in nothing but the bo­kes of Moyses or other bokes of scrypture / but he sayd, do not as they do / not forbedīge thē to byleue thē in many other thynges, but forbedyng them to folow them in theyr vyces. C

Now if Cryste had sayd farther to the iewes / all thynges necessarye be wryten, & therfore byleue the scrybes & phary­sees no farther then ye fynde wryten in Moyses and in the prophetes: had thys proued that all thynge that crystē me [...] muste byleue, is wryten in the apostles and the euāgelistes [...] Now the wordes of saynt Austayne whyche frere Barons addeth therunto / do for this purpose nothyng auaunce the mater. For when saynte Austayne applyeth those wordes of Cryste to a preacher that is not a very trew shepeherde, so kyng onely the weale of the flokke and y ^e pleasure of Criste / but mercennary and an hyred man, that preacheth for luc [...] or other wordely affeccyons of hys owne / and then sayeth y ^t in the chayre of Moyses is vnderstande the lernynge of the [Page ccci] A law of god, and sayth that therfore god dothe teache vs by them, that is to wytte by those mercēnary preachers to / and therfore when they teache the law of god, here them and do thereafter / but and if they wyll teache theyr owne doctrine, here yt not, do yt not / for suche men seke that is theyres and not Crystes, that is to wyt theyr owne commodyte and not the pleasure of god: lo sayth Barns these wordes of saynte Austayne be playne agaynst all them that preche any thyng but the law of god onely. And forthwyth well and wyse [...]y in stede of prechyng, he putteth ensample of statutes makyng / as though yt were both one thynge, one man to preche and all the chirche to make a statute. And bycause ye shold se yet hys playnesse and synceryte therin / he fayneth that y ^e chirch maketh some openly and directly agaynst the worde of god, B and to the destruccyon of the fayth / as is that statute sayth he, whereby they haue condemned the new testament and also forbeden certayne men to preache the worde of god, ha­uynge no cause agaynste them but all onely theyr owne ma­lycyouse suspycyon.

Now of trouth there is no such statute made [...] nor no such thynge done, neyther concernynge the tone poynte nor the tother. For as for the new testament / yf he meane the testa­ment of Cryste, yt is not condemned nor forboden neyther, no more then was the holy arche, though euery man myght not be so bolde to touche yt. But of trouth, there is a false englyshe translacyon of the newe testament newly forged by Tyndale, so altered & chaunged in maters of great weyght, malycyousely to sette forth agaynste Crystes trew doctryne C Tyndales antichrysten heresyes / that yt was not worthy to be called Crystes testament, but eyther Tyndales owne te­stament, or the testament of hys mayster Antechryste. And therfore that boke is cōdemned as it is well worthy / and the condemnacyon therof is neyther openly, nor pryuyly, direc­tely, nor indirectely agaynst y ^e worde of god, nor tendeth not to the destruccion of the fayth, but very cōsonaunt wyth the worde of god, auferte masum ex vobismet ipsis/and greatly tendyng to the mayntenaunce of the fayth.

And concernynge that testament: I haue both in my dialoge and in the secūde boke of thys wurke, well proued this poynte / wherunto when Tyndale weneth to fynde any far­ther defence, let hym lay yt forth.

There is also no statute made by y ^e chirch, to forbyd any [Page cccii] man to preache the worde of god hauyng no cause agaynst A hym but theyr owne malycyouse suspycyon. Nor god I dowte not wyll neuer suffer hys chyrche to fall so madde, as to make suche a law. If frere Barns fynde any law made of suche mater [...] let hym reherse it / and I waraunt you he shall fynde no suche wordes in it. There is in dede a law made, bothe by the chyrche and in thys realme by the parlyament to that no man shall be suffred to preache in any dyocyse a­gaynste the bysshoppes wyll. And I wene that law be not agaynst goddes law, nor agaynste reason neyther / excepte eyther goddys lawe or good reason sholde suffer that one man sholde medle wyth another mannes charge magry his teeth to whom y ^e charge bylongeth / or ellys shold be suffred to sow shrewd seed of heresyes, scysmes, & sedycyōs, among the people fyrst [...] & then be burned vp after at leysour. Such B folke I suppose were better prohybyted bytymes, ere they be suffred longe to go forwarde, to y ^e parell of other mennes soules & theyr owne to. Such haue we had some prohybited here of late / of whyche one was yet so sore set vppon euyll prechyng, y ^t after the prohybycyon & abiuracyō to, yet wold he preche heresyes styll / vntyll at the last god caused hym to be taken, & Tindals bokes with hym to, & both two burned togyder / wyth more profyte vnto his soule thē had ben happely to haue lyued lenger & after dyed in his bedde. For in what mynde he sholde then haue dyed our lorde knoweth / where as now we know well he dyed a good crysten man. And when he wyste well his reuocacyon coude not saue his body: yet reuoked he his heresyes and abhorred Tyndals bokes for to saue hys soule. C

Now here serue well the wordes of saynte Austayne a­gaynst Barns, whyche wordes Barns bryngeth for hym. For when we here such a mercēnary precher as these heretykes be / for the tyme y ^t we here them, yf they say aught well, and accordynge to the catholyke fayth, as they can not for shame saye all nought at ones: then take it. But when we here them preache theyr owne heresyes for the rewarde of worldely prayse, or delyte of theyr owne syngulare pryde, and so seke theyr owne and not Crystes: then here them not, but putte them to sylence and prohybyte them to preache any more.

Thys allegorye wyll agre wyth y ^e sayd wordes of saynt Austayne & of Crystes wordes to. And yet so mych y ^e better, [Page ccciii] A in that these heretyques maye properly be called not onely mercennaryes, of whom saynt Austayne speketh / but also very scrybes and pharisees, of wurse kynde then were those of whom Criste in that gospel speketh. For these be false scribes / that is to wytte wryters, not wrytyng any trew bokes of scrypture, but false gloses and contrary commentes vp­pon scrypture, and erronyouse bokes of dyuelyshe heresyes dyuysed of theyre owne frantyque braynes / to the coloure wherof they abuse the scrypture, and when they lyste they also denye y ^e scrypture. These be also y ^e worst kynde of phary­sees. For these haue dyuyded them selfe not from the other people by any professyon of a more honest & more vertuous lyuynge / but haue dyuyded them selfe from the catholyque chirche of Cryste by abomynable heresyes, and from all honeste B people by the cōtempte of all good wurkes, and by the bestely professyon of freres & nonnes lyuyng to gether in le­chery, & preachyng theyr horedome fo [...] honeste matrymony.

These be the thynges whyche we sholde not vouchsaufe to here these scrybes and the [...]e false pharysees preache. For these be the deuyls deuyces and theyr owne. For as for all y ^t is preached consonaunte to the catholyque fayth, ys very goddes law whyther yt be wrytē or not. Nor saynt Austayn sayth not, Here them in preachynge onely the scripture / but goddes law he sayth, wherein is comphended all that euer we be boūden to do or byleue. wherof saynt Austayn doth hym selfe confesse, that dyuerse thynges are vnwryten / as for ensample the perpetuall virgynyte of our blessed ladye, whyche who so byleueth not bycause yt is not wryten, saynt C Austayne calleth a fals [...] heretyque in hys boke wryten vnto Quod vult deus. And so doth saynte Hierome to in hys boke a­gaynste Eluidius. And all such thynges be therfore partes of the plantes whyche the father of heuen planteth by hym selfe, hys apostles, his holy spiryte, and his owne sonne abydynge in hys chirche: whyther they be wryten or not.

And thus ye se good reders, that neyther those wordes of Cryste, nor of saynt Austayne, neyther do proue that the a­postles haue lefte all necessarye thynges in wrytynge. And therfore though Barns was so fonde to brynge in that text for this purpose: yet Tyndale perceyued well that yt wold not serue, and therfore lefte yt out.

yet layeth frere Barns a nother texte for thys purpose, y ^e wordes of saynt Poule wryten vnto Timothe the .iii. chapyter [Page ccciiii] of y ^e .ii. pystle. where saynte Poule wryteth vnto hym in A thys wyse: Abyde thou in those thynges y ^t thou hast lerned, and y ^t are betaken to y ^e / knowynge of whō thou haste lerned them and that from thyn infancye thou haste knowen holy scrypture, whyche maye instructe the to helth by the fayth y ^t is in Cryste Iesu. All scrypture inspyred of god is profyta­ble to teche, to reproue, to correcte, to teache men in iustyce, that the man of god maye be perfayte instructed to euery good worke.

I haue rehersed you saynt Poules wordes more full thē doth frere Barns / bycause ye maye haue some gesse why he lefte the remanaūt out. For he reherseth no more but that y ^e chyrche muste neyther make law nor statute nor nothynge do but onely preache and mynyster the worde of god / and that nothynge addynge nor mynysshynge, but as Poule B sayth to Timothe, abyde in those thynges that they haue lerned and that be commytted vnto them.

Now se ye well that saynte Poule speketh nothynge to Timothe agaynst addynge o [...] any good order or statute in hys chyrche / but byddeth hym abyde faste by those thynges that he hath lerned of hym, and that he hath lerned in scryp­ture / ioynynge to the scrypture alwaye the ryght fayth of Cryste whyche he had lerned of saynt Poule. And therfore agaynste makynge of any law, thys texte serueth frere Ba­rons a strawe.

Moreouer it is to be consydered that saynte Poule sayth not to Timothe, Abyde in those thynges that I haue wry­ten, but abyde in those thynges that thou hast lerned eyther in scrypture or ellys otherwyse of [...]e wythout scrypture, as C he wrote vnto the Thessalonycēses, Obserue ye my pre­ceptes whyche I haue gyuen you, eyther by worde or wry­tynge.

And as he wryteth vnto Timothe before in the same py­stle, Haue thou the forme and fasshyon of the holesome wor­des, whyche thou haste herde of me in fayth & loue in Cryste Iesu. He sayth not the wordes that I haue wryten vnto y ^e, and that thou hast redde of myne / but the wordes that thou hast herd of me.

But yet is there for thys purpose in that texte of saynte Poule that Barns bryngeth forth, another thynge to be cō sydered / that where as saynt Poule telleth Timothe, that all be it he haue ben lerned in scrypture from hys chyldhed / [Page cccv] A yet he must ioyne therwyth y ^e artycles of the fayth of Cryst. And that it may well appere that he gyueth Timothe thys warnynge to arme hym wyth agaynst heretyques, whyche wolde labour by some colour of apparent scryptures to de­stroye the fayth that Timothe had lerned, as these heretykes do now: it is I saye therfore to be noted y ^t saynt Poule gaue Timothe that warnynge [...] that he sholde stande faste in those thynges that he hadde taught hym / remembrynge of whom he had lerned them, of a trew apostle [...] and not of such as they were, that wolde tell hym contrary, false heretykes. And so must we agaynste these heretykes that wolde draw vs from the trew fayth that we haue lerned / stande fast and remember of whom we haue lerned it [...] of Cryste and hys a­postles, and contynually from them of hys perpetuall apo­stle B the catholyke chyrche of Cryste, anymated and instruc­ted accordynge to hys promyse wyth hys owne spyryte this xv.C. yeres / and not by suche as thes [...] be that now bable a­gaynst it, false heretykes / whose snakysshe and serpentyne generacyōs, haue euer more hytherto when they haue crept out as adders and snakes in somer, had theyr heddys trodē downe by god and all good men.

Saynt Poule tolde Timothe to / that the scrypture was good and profytable to teache the faythfull folke, and to re­proue heretykes yf he ioyned therwyth alwaye the fayth of Cryste / wythout whyche it wolde do hym no seruyce, for all that he had ben lerned therin from hys chyldhed. And in y ^• warnynge gyuen to Timothe saynt Poule hath taught vs also, that yf we haue sure in herte the artycles of Crystes C fayth, whyche be surely kepte by Cryste in hys catholyque chyrche: then shall we be able well to vnderstande the scrypture, so mych as shall suffyce and be necessary. And but yf we haue that bylefe / we shall haue no ryght vnderstādyng. But that ryght byleyfe, and therby that vnderstandynge had / the scrypture (though all thynges be not wrytē therin) wyll yet be profytable and stand vs in good stede, not onely for our instruccyon towarde the perfeccyon of vertuose ly­uynge, but also in dysputacyon agaynste heretykes / bothe in the profe of many artycles of the ryght bylyefe, and to proue them clerely that the comen consent of Crystes catho­lyke chyrche can not in crystes very trew fayth erre and be dampnably deceyued, whyther the thynges byleued be wryten in scrypture or not / and also that hys catholyke chyrche [Page cccvi] ys this comen knowen chyrche of all crysten nacyons, saue A such as be by false heresyes separated there fro. And vn the tother syde, wythout the catholyque fayth of Cristes chirch fastened in our hartes / the scrypture as yt coulde not haue serued Timothe wythout the trew fayth hadde in his harte, so can yt not serue vs neyther to the confusyon of heretykes nor to the spirituall profyte of our selfe.

And thus ye se that frere Barons hath very pore helpe of this texte of saynt Poule / whyche thynge Tyndale well percyued & therfore he lefte yt out. And Barns hym self perceyuynge that the moste parte wolde make so mych agaynst hym / toke in a lytle and lefte the remanaunt out.

yet bryngeth in Barns a nother texte of saynte Poule, where he wryteth vnto the Romayns in the .xv. chapyter: I dare not speke any other thynge then those that god hath B wroughte by me. whyche wordes fyrste be so hard as they stande in the place, that the old interpretours stode in great doute what saynte Poule ment by them / so farre forth that by exposycyon of saynte Ambrose, saynte Poule ment that there was nothynge that perteyned to the glory of prechyng the worde of god, but that god had fulfylled yt in hym / as though he wold say that all that was to be taught, god had taught the gentyles by hym. Origene expowneth them in a nother maner / that saynt Poule in those wordes ment, that he wolde not take vnto hym self the prayse of other mennes dedys, but wolde onely speke of suche thynges as god had wrought by hym selfe. Theophylactus aloweth Origenes exposycyon, and yet addeth a thyrde therto, sayenge in the person of saynt Poule: I boste yo [...] not the thynges that I C haue not done / but onely shew you the thynge I haue done my selfe. How be yt that that I haue done / yt is not I that haue done yt, but Cryste hath done yt by me.

I shew you this good reders bycause ye shold somwhat perceyue the maner of these men / whyche vse in many thynges to proue theyr maters by those textes that are of moste dyffycultye, and suche as are leste vnderstanden. And ther­fore in the mater of the lyberty of mannys wyll, & predesty­nacyon, and y ^e mater of fayth, and good wurkes: they passe ouer the playne textes of the other euangelystes wyth some slayght glose of theyr owne diuyse / and then for the profe of theyr owne parte they rūne to the hard places of the gospell of saynte Iohn̄, or to the apocalyps, or to y ^e pystles of saynt [Page cccvii] A Poule, in suche places as are almoste as hard as the apocalyps. All whych when they expowne as yt please them / then the call them playne, and say that euery man & woman may vnderstand them easyly / notwythstandyng that saynte Pe­ter beynge longe at scole wyth Cryste, and the chyefe of hys apostles, protesteth openly to all the worlde by wrytynge, that saynte Poules pystles haue thynges hard & dyffycyle. And he sayth farther of suche as Barns is & Tyndale [...] and such other heretyque theyr felowes: Those hard thynges sayth saynt Peter that are wryten by saynt Poule / men vn­lerned and vnstable, do depraue and mysconstre as they do all the remanaunt of the scrypture, vnto theyr owne perdy­cyon. And saynt Poule sayth hym selfe also [...] that in the ma­ter of good wurkes, these false heretykes mysse cōstre hym / B and sayeth therfore that theyre dampnacyon ys iuste and ryghtuouse.

And thus as I say these heretyques laye forth for theyre parte hard textes and doutefull, as Barns doth here / which texte in the place where yt standeth, the beste lerned men are in dowte how to constre yt. How be yt let Barns constre yt whych way he lyste, that may haue any hold of the wordes / and it shall neuer serue for his purpose, neyther concernyng any forbedynge of lawes to be made by the chirche, nor to proue that euery thynge necessary to saluacyon is writen in scrypture / but rather playne the contrarye. For euery man well woteth, that euery necessarye thynge is not wryten by saynt Poule, nor he hath not wryten euery thynge that he taught, nor euery thynge is not now had that he dyd write. C And therfore this text of saynt Poule brought in by Barns nothynge helpeth his purpose, but rather greatly hyndreth yt / whych thynge Tyndale well perceyued, and therfore he lefte yt oute.

Tyndale saw well also that any thynge that his mayster Marten Luther layde and lashed oute agaynste the kynges hyghnes, concernynge this purpose, or spekynge agaynste the tradycyons of men / serue to no purpose in this mater a­gaynste the sacramentes, or any poynte of the catholyque fayth, whyche we saye be the tradycyons of god. wherof as Tyndale well knoweth / nothynge that Luther layed, any thynge proue the contrary, nor any thynge touche the pur­pose, to proue that all the necessarye poyntes of the crysten fayth were by Crystes apostles putte in wrytyng. And ther­fore [Page cccviii] Tyndale seynge his mayster Martine Luther in that A poynt by Rosseus so shamfully sowsed in the myre byfore: thought he wolde beware of that pudle and come no more nere yt / and therfore lefte out all y ^t his mayster had brought in for the mater.

Then was ther yet one texte remayned, wherof many of them were wonte to bere theym hygh. And that was the sa­ynge of saynt Poule / which text Tindale hath also brought forth ere thys, to proue that we muste byleue nothynge but onely scrypture. And that is where he wryteth to the Gala­thyes in the furst chapyter: that yf an angell of heuen wold come downe and preache any other gospell then hym selfe had done, accursed were he. Thys texte hath nowe frere Barns brought in a freshe for the same purpose in hys new frantyke boke, and magnyfyeth mych hym selfe there wyth, B when Tyndale hath left it of for shame. For Tyndale at last after longe lokyng on it / espyed well y ^t yt wold nothyng serue for hys mater. For he saw well that saynt Poule ment none other, but that an angell were not to be byleued, yf he taught a contrarye gospell / and ment not that none angell were to be byleued, yf god sent hym both to conferme that, and also shew somwhat that god wolde haue done farther.

Tyndale saw also that that texte sayeth not that saynte Poule hath wryten all hys owne gospell, nor that all hys felowes hadde wryten yt amonge them all / whyche he wyste well was the poynte that muste be proued. And therfore as frere Barns folyshely bryngeth yt in / so doth Tyndale wy­sely leue yt out. And surely as I haue sayde, hys wytte ser­ued hym well in leuynge out all th [...]se. But hys wyt fayled C hym in one thynge, that he hadde not lefte oute also all that euer he hath hym selfe brought in. All whyche as your selfe se well / I haue nowe proued hym as lytle to preue hys pur­pose, as hym selfe seeth well that all the tother dyd, whyche for that cause he was ashamed to speke of.

Now haue ye herd as farre as I can fynde, all that euer Tyndale eyther hath sayde or can say in this mater / eyther hym selfe or any man ellys for the profe of hys owne parte, or for the dysprofe of ours. And therby se ye well that he neyther hath proued, nor neuer shall he proue whyle he lyueth, neyther hym selfe nor no man ellys, the thyng that he so boldely sayth, that all thynge necessary for saluacyon is wrytē in scrypture / nor able is he not, nor no man ellys, nor neuer [Page cccix] A shall, hereafter be able to auoyde yt / but that god taughte & ys not yet so bounden, but that he may teche what he wyll and when he wyll, wyth scrypture or wythout / and may cō ­maunde yt to be byleued not beyng contrary to that he hath taught all redy, and maye commaunde some thynges to be done though they were contrarye to some thynges that he hadde hym selfe by scrypture commaunded afore.

And I thynke yt not to be dowted but notwythstādynge that Moyses receyued the laws ad ceremonies in writyng: yet receyued he not (as Tyndale sayth he dyd) all thyng so fully in wrytynge, but that there remayned in the peoples myndes bysyde the wrytyng dyuerse thynges necessary and of great wayght, that they hadde receyued byfore [...] & kepte peraduenture from Adams owne dayes / concernynge the B commynge of Cryste, and the redempcyon by hym, and the state of soules, both in heuen, hell, purgatory, paradyse, & lymbus patrum.

And yt wyll who so lyste to loke therfore, well be percey­ued in them that wrote after Moyses dayes / that the iewes had myche open lyght and knowlege in some such thynges bysyde all that that appereth writē / in the .v. bokis of Moyses whereby yt wyll well appere that Tyndale sayeth not trew, where he sayth that Moyses dyd put all in wrytynge.

ye shall well fynde also, y ^t not wythstādyng all that euer hath ben wryten synnys, eyther by the prophetes, euange­lystes, or any other apostle: yet wyll yt neuer appere that all is wryten that was taught by mouth / but that y ^• chirche of Cryste hath had taught vnto them by the spiryte of god, C dyuerse treuthes, whyche no good man can doute in, wher­of the scrypture nothynge determyneth / and whyche thyn­ges therfore false heretyques brynge in questyon, and lette not to say the contrary, as in the comen knowen ensamples of our ladyes perpetuall virgynyte, of the assumpcyon of her blessed body, whyche god wold ellys haue had founden in erth, & honored as well as the bodyes of any other saynt / of whom hym selfe hath caused by specyall reuelacyon dy­uerse to be sought out and founden, [...]o be wurshypped here in erth for hys sake, and confermed yt by many manifest miracles, as we fynde in autentyque storyes.

By these tradycyons haue we also y ^e prayeng to saynts, and the knowledge that they pray for vs / all be yt in y ^e boke of Machabe [...] yet that thynge well appereth.

[Page cccx]By these tradicions haue we the holy lenton faste / which A these brotheles so boldely take vppon them to breke, and as lollardes to eate fleshe / and whyche holy faste these folys in theyr wrytynge call the folyshe faste.

By these haue we also the saterdaye chaūged into y ^e son­daye, whyche they care not to turne into frydaye now.

By these haue we the halowyng of chalyces, vestymēts, pascall taper, and holy water, wyth dyuerse other thynges.

By these tradycyons of that holy spiryte / hath the chirch also the knowlege how to consecrate, how to say masse, and what thynge to pray for and to desyre therein.

By thys haue we also the knowlege to do reuerēce to the images of holy sayntes, and of oure sauyour / and to crepe to hys crosse / and to do dyuyne honour vnto the blessed sa­crament of the auter, to whyche yet to saye the trouth neuer B tradycyon neded. For syth the scrypture ys playne that yt is Crystes owne precy [...]use bodye, whyche ys not dede but quykke, wyth that blessed so [...]le and wyth them the godhed vnseparably ioyned: what frantyque fole coulde doute but yt sholde be wyth dyuyne honour wurshypped, though neyther god nor man bysyde that knowledge, hadde geuen vs warnynge therof.

But yet is Tyndale so farre bysyde hym selfe / that he byleueth not the scrypture of god, nor the word spoken by goddes owne mouth, when he sayde that yt is hys owne body / and is so blasphemouse agaynst god, that he calleth it great synne to do to that blessed bodye of Cryste in the sacrament any honour at all, bycause yt ys not commaunded he sayth in scrypture. C

But thus may ye good crysten readers se, to what poynt at laste thys heresye bryngeth these folke. For when they fyrste fall to that poynt, that they regarde not goddes word but yf he geue yt them in wrytynge [...] wythin a whyle after fall they downe so farre, y ^t they neyther regarde hys worde, nor his wrytynge, nor yet hym selfe neyther.

But nowe is yt a worlde to se what shyfte these folke be fayne to seke. Sometyme they come forth shamlesse, and boldely tell on theyre tale. And yet when they perceyue in the myddes thereof, that all that here theym wonder on them: then they caste on theyr hodes and keuer theyr faces for shame.

For somtyme they say they care but for scrypture alone, [Page cccxi] A and set nought by all those that euer wrote synnys the apo­stles dayes. Then se they agayn that to abyde by that word were to shamelesse / and then they restrayne it vnto this .viii. hundred yeres laste paste, in whyche they saye all is corrup­ted. And then they graūte that before, there were good men that taught the trewth / and then they saye that we wyll not byleue them, as though them selfe wolde.

And when we aske them then / whyche of those olde men before .viii.C. yere last past, euer sayed that relygyous men myght runne out and wedde nonnes: to that they say no­thynge, but fare as though they herd it not.

But when that my lorde of Rochester in the selfe same mater y ^t we haue now in hande, to proue that dyuers thyn­ges whyche the chyrch vseth and byleueth, and whych were B neuer made by any law wryten, and yet obserued thorow y ^• catholyke chyrche / were of suche antyquyte that euery man myghte well perceyue that they came from y ^• very apostles them selfe: h [...] layed forth the greate clerke & olde auncyent father Origene / wherwyth as I haue shewed you before Tyndale was very angry, and all to rated Origen & called hym starke heretyke.

But yet shall not Tyndale so fere me there wythall / but that to thentent that he shall not blynde you and make you wene that all the olde fathers were in thys mater of hys mynde / but that ye shall well se that the thynges whyche he reproueth and wolde haue you wene were nought worth, bycause he sayth they be not in scrypture, be not thynges deuysed as Tyndale sayth by popys and popysh wythin thys C viii.C. yere: I shall as I promysed byfore in y ^• second boke, reherse you bothe the wordes of Origene / and besyde some vndowted holy mē synnes, I shall reherse you dyuers other above .viii.C. yere, and aboue .xi.C. yere, and aboue a thou­sande to, of whom my lorde of Rochester hath gathered dy­uerse togyther, and rehersed in the same mater in hys boke agaynst Luther / all whyche saue Origene onely Tyndale dyssembleth, bycause he may not call them her [...]tykes as he called Origene / for whom I haue in that poynt answered Tyndale in my sayd seconde boke before.

Origene in the fyfte homely vppon the boke of Numeri wryteth in thys wyse: In the obseruaunces of the chyrche, some thynges there are, whyche muste of necessyte be obserued and kept / and ye [...] the cause why appereth not to euery [Page cccxii] man. As (for ensample) that we knele when we pray / & that A of all partes of the heuen, we moste specyally tourne vs to­warde the este. I suppose that no man lyghtely knoweth y ^• cause why. Moreouer of the sacrament of thaulter, eyther the maner in the receyuyng, or the guyse and fashyon of the cōsecracyon / or of the formale wordes and ceremonyes vsed in baptysme, and of the questyons and answeres vsed in the same: who may well open and declare the reason? And yet all these thynges though they be coueryd and hyd / we bere vppon our shoulders what tyme we in such wyse accōplysh and fulfyll them / as we haue receyued them of the great byshoppe Cryste and hys chyldren, delyuered and commended vnto vs.

Damascene in the fourth boke in the .xiii. chapyter of y ^• prayeng towarde the oryente wryteth thus: This tradicyon B of the apostles, is not wryten / for many thynges are delyuered vnto vs wythout wrytynge. And farther in the .xvii. chapyter where it is wryten of y ^• [...]urshyppynge of the ymages of sayntes, he sayeth that many thynges the holy apostles haue delyuered vnto vs wythout wrytynge. Saynt Poule the apostle of the gentyles wryteth in this wyse: Stande faste and obserue our tradycyons, whyche ye be taught, be yt by our worde or by wrytynge. And vnto the Corynthyes thus: I commende ye my brethern / by cause in euery thyng ye haue remembred me, and kepte the tradycyons as I delyuered ye them.

Dyonise the fyrste chapyter of Ecclesiasticae hierarchiae, of the leders and maysters of the crysten fayth, sayth that they delyuered vs many thynges to be kepte, partely by wrytynge C and partely by theyr instytucyons vnwryten.

Saynte Cypriane in his sermon of the wasshynge of the fete: The hygh preste hym selfe, is the ordayner and author of his owne sacrament. In all the resydew men were taught by the holy goste. And lykewyse as in Criste and in the holy goste, is lyke and egall godhed: so is there in theyr instytu­cyons and ordynaunces, lyke power and egall authoryte. And no lesse is yt ratyfyed of god, the thyng that thapostles by the inspyracyon of the holy goste dyd instytute: then the thynge that hym selfe hath ordeyned / and hath in remem­braunce of hym selfe, wylled and commaunded to be done. Eche of them hath theyr owne proper dygnyte / and eche of them hath in theyr owne kynde egall authoryte. Nothynge [Page cccxiii] A maye there eyther be addyd or wythdrawne, nothynge ney­ther reformed nor chaunged.

Saynte Hyllary in the syxte boke of the Trynyte, when he had made mencyon of the apostles wryteth in this wyse: Of these apostles am I taught these thynges y ^• I obserue. In them am I so seasoned, that the taste can neuer be go­ten oute.

Theophilactus vppō these wordes of saynt Poule My brethern stande faste and kepe the tradycyons that ye haue lerned, be yt by my worde or by my letters: of this trewly yt is euyd [...]nt that saynt Poule delyuered vnto thē many thynges to be kepte wythout wrytynge, and by worde of mouth onely / that ys to saye wyth lyuely voyce, not by letters all onely. For as well be those thynges to be byleued, as these. B And therfore let vs esteme thobseruaūces of the chyrce, worthy to be byleued / so that yf any thynge be delyuered to vs by the chyrch: neuer aske farther questyon.

Saynte Hierome interp [...]etynge the .xi. chapyter of the fyrste epystle to the Corynthyes, sayth in this wyse: Saynt Poule preuented them, to thentent none of them shold say / where is this wryten? nor shold wyth any other argumētes stryue agaynste this reason. And therfore he sayde, we haue no suche custome to stryue and contende / neyther we nor yet the chirche of god, whych is rather geuē to myldenesse then to contencyon and stryfe.

Theophilactus expowneth the same place lykewyse and sayth: For as myche as the Corinthyans wolde perchaunce collour this mater by certayne subtyltyes, and wente about C yt by syllogysmys & sophistycacyons / alledgynge that these thynges were neyther good nor bad, but of theyr nature in­dyfferent: therfore saynt Poule sayde, we haue no such cu­stome other to be cōtencyouse, or a man to let his here grow in length, or a woman to go bare hed, neither haue we (sayd saynt Poule) this custome / nor the chirche of god that ys, nor the other crysten people neyther. And therfore by suche frowarde argumētes / ye seme to resyste and withstande not onely me, but also the chyrche yt selfe.

These wordes therfore of saynte Poule / maye make the herers ashamed, to do any thynge contrarye to the custome receyued by the chyrche.

Saynte Leo also an holyman and a cunnynge / in a ser­mon that he maketh in the faste at whytesontyde, sayeth in [Page cccxiiii] thys wyse: There is no doute my welbeloued brethern, but A that euery crysten obseruaunce is of Crystes techynge / and what so euer is receyued of the chyrche into a custome of deuocyon, commeth of thapostles tradycyon, and of the doctryne of y ^e holy goost. which holy spiryte euen now also doth rule all faythfull hertes wyth his own instruccyon, to make them kepe them obedyently and vnderstande them wysely.

Saynte Austayne in the boke of the baptysme of yonge chyldren, agaynste the Pelagians wry [...]eth in thys wyse. Chyldren whiche be baptysed be taken in y ^e nomber of faythfull peple / and that onely by an olde cononyke & sure grounded custome of the chyrche. And in a nother place agayne: Now sayth he we haue shewed you afore y ^t the lyttell chyld beleueth, & that he is accoūted amonxst men y ^• be baptysed. Thys holdeth the authoryte of our mother holy chirch / and B this holdeth the rule of the sure groūded fayth. who so run­neth agaynste this fortresse, this inexpugnable wall / shall all to frush hym selfe.