The first Dialogue. 3

THe peace of God and his bles­sing be vpon thee my Sheich, my worthy and most reuerend Father. The Lord blesse this dayes worke.

The Lord be with thee, and reioyce thy heart my sonne. How happened it that we haue both gone this iourney these many dayes together, and haue not met till now?

I did not see thee at all, all the time that we went to the Alkaaba (God make vs honorable by it) vntill we were gone vp mount Kabis: At that time I would faine haue met thee: but by meanes of the great throng of pilgrimes I could not, and by reason of the great prease I lost thee. Yet this mor­ning I saw thee againe, and making hast, being farre off, and the throng great, at length I came vnto thee. But both my selfe and my Camell are very weake and faint.

I am glad that I haue light on thee in this iourney: For I desire to go with thee, that we may al­waies 4 be conferring together of some spirituall mat­ter or other.

I also am glad of this, and it liketh me very well: For by thee I shall gaine much good. For by [Page] conuersing with learned men there is alwaies some­thing learned.

Know thou therefore, my sonne, that as by this blessed iourney wee do obtaine f [...]ee remission from God, of all sinnes: So we ought to withdraw our selues from iniquitie, and to lay hold vpon true Religion and an holy life.

Good father, I know this very well, and I desire it may be done: But how is it possible a man should be in this world, and not be polluted and de­filed with it?

He that doth delight in the holinesse of the spirituall life, he will not meddle with any schisme in Religion.

Yet I do beleeue that the Fathers, which were of better vnderstanding, that they might auoid the pollutions of the wo [...]ld, did betake themselues vnto wildernesses: that so being sequestred from worldly businesses, they might the better thinke vpō the maiestie of the most high God: Of the excellent frame of the celestiall spheares: The large com­passe of the Ocean: The strange variety of the earth­ly Globe: Of all other things of naturall Philosophie: Of the powre of the most high God, And especially of the excellency of Man, who, in respect of the beau­tie of the reasonable soule, and the faculties thereof, is most like vnto the celestiall Angels. But in respect of his bodily parts he is like vnto a brute beast.

But I spake of that man which was created by Almightie God, after the [...]orme and similitude of himselfe.

Where I pray you, father, is that image in man?

[Page]

In the faculties of the Soule and beauty there­of.

What then are those faculties of the Soule?

Vnderstanding, Memorie, and Will: For 6 these three faculties are in euery reasonable soule.

How do these three faculties make a man like vnto God?

As euery reasonable soule, adorned and beautified with these three faculties, is one man: So that same God is the powerfull vnderstanding com­prehending all, and commanding ouer all: He is also that word or soule which created the heauens vault­wise most seemlily; with all other things else what­soeuer: Lastly he is that Will or Charitie, whose bountie and goodnesse preserueth all things.

These words are good, and such as all men ought to heare and regard.

It is not sufficient for a man to heare, that there is this power and propertie in God: And that a man do know also the excellencie of his soule vni­ted 7 with the basenesse of this worldly life, like vnto a brute beast: And that he doth not indeed vnder­stand what is good and equall, but is like vnto the vnreasonable creatures.

What is it therefore that he ought to do?

This he ought to do: As the Angels, the Hea­uens, and the Elements all are vnder the obedience of the Creator, and do alwaies sing praises and do those things, which he, whose name is alway to bee praised and exalted, hath ordained them to do: So man with the vnderstanding ought to glorifie God continually: And with the excellencie of Will, and [Page] faculty of Memory in all matters we should walke vprightly and honestly, and shun all sinne and ini­quitie.

Blessed is he that doth thus.

Truth it is; he is blessed indeed. For his soule beginneth to delight it selfe, in this world, with that kind of delight and ioy, that after this mortall life en­ded, shall be perfect and in Paradise compleate; which in this world is not possible for man to conceiue or apprehend: For our vnderstanding cannot conceiue that, which was not first seene or, heard, or perceiued by some of the externall senses.

Why then it followeth, That seeing the end of man is the blessednesse of the soule: And that the portion he looketh for is spirituall, not animall, It must needs be thought, that that good thing which is proposed to a man, is something spirituall, not cor­porall, nor animall.

This confession is sound, and this confession ought euery Mussleman, that is of discretion, to make.

In truth, these words of thine do much re­ioyce me: But I maruaile greatly, why this is not a custome amongst the wiser sort of Musslemans, to talke and discourse at all times of these arguments, and such like matters as these.

The reason is, for that the Musslemans for the most part, do exercise themselues in feats of armes, and do giue their mind to the study of the famous acts of former kings; not vnto studies of Diuinity, and spirituall knowledge.

And what profite, I pray you, is there in the [Page] knowledge of all storie of former kings of the whole world, if wee be ignorant of the true way, whereby we are shewed how our [...]oule doth consent with the will of God, which is our end and onely felicity?

Our Prophet, our Aduocate, I meane, hath ordained the Law in the famous Alkoran, for the sal­uation of his people: The end and effect of the law of God. For this is the property of the Law, that it draweth and tendeth vnto that end that maketh peace, and saluation of the soule, not of the 10 bodie. For the bodie is dust, and subiect to mortali­tie: But the soule dieth neuer; because it is of a di­uine nature.

But a true and certaine obedience, toge­ther with an obseruation of the diuine Law is re­quired.

That is out of doubt true. The bookes of Moses. For in the Law are contained the commandements of God, which were giuen first vnto Moses, to this end that he should keepe and obserue the said precepts. And hereupon it is, that our Prophet in the title Ionas, Of the Pro­phets. saith, That the bookes of Moses and of the rest of the prophets are true; Psalmes of Dauid. as also that the Psalmes of Dauid are holy: For in those bookes are contained the holy and pure commandements of God.

Moreouer in the same chapter also, if I be not deceiued, our Prophet saith, And the Gos­pell approued by Mohamed. That the Gospell is true, holy and perfect.

Nay, which is more, he calleth it a guide sent 11 from God.

What meane you by that phrase sent as a guide from God?

That is, a prophecie, a path, and a right way. [Page] For at the time of Christs coming, The Go [...]pell is the gift of God or guide sent from him. the world was found fully replenished with sinne and iniquitie: And in all corners of the world men did worship images, in whom diuels did dwell; And there were none that knew God, All people of the w [...]rld be­fore Christs comming were idolaters, the Iewes onely excep­ted. but the people of the Iewes onely: For they did celebrate the name of God the Lord the Creator of all things. And men were drawne vnto this error and destruction by a litle and litle. And to be briefe; small and great, all of them were vnder this diuellish and blinde seruitude.

What thing fell out at the birth of Christ?

There fell out this. That he, like the direct & 12 true beames of the Sunne, in a moment dispelled out of the world, Christ the true light of the word, By the preach­ing and mira­cles wrought by himselfe and his Apo­stles dispelled all darknes and idolatry. those clouds of darknes; And he roused vp mankind and the posterity of Adam from those sinnes by a litle and litle, by preaching and miracles. And after him, his Apostles, and Disciples, and those who followed him, exercised the same things, vntill that men had contemned idols, and wholly abando­ned them, and did worship the true God, and loued the seruice of God sincerely.

Therefore very worthily did our Prophet commend the Gospell, and call it, a prophecy, and straight way of God. For in truth so it is.

When therefore our Prophet Mohammed came, was there no idoll at all in the world?

Our Prophet came after Christ about 600 yeares; and therefore I thinke there were no idols, 13 no not in any place; especially in such places where learned and discreet men dwelt.

What good thing did our Prophet adde vn­to the Gospell, seeing that the doctrines of it are holy [Page] and perfect, as he himselfe doth affirme.

He added no other thing at all, then that which he himselfe doth testifie of himselfe in his Al­koran; to wit, That he himselfe also is a true Prophet; And that he hath talked oft-times with the Angell Gabriel. And that vpon Barak he went vp into the heauens: Item he saith, That God and his Angels do pray for him: Lastly, he saith, That Noe, Abraham, & his Apostles did follow his law & cōmandements

Here, I adiure thee by the most high God, that thou tell me, How these men did follow his law, seeing that they were before him many hundreds & 14 thousands of yeares?

But his law was written also by another, in a time before that.

This seemeth not to be true: For our Pro­phet himselfe saith, That he wrote them, and that by himselfe. Wherefore we do confesse; That the books of Moses, & of the Prophets, the Psalmes of Dauid, and the Gospell of the Christians, were commen­ded and receiued of our Prophet.

Yet I am desirous to know whether all these bookes be but one, or not? And whether all of them do agree in all languages, which are now found in the world, or not?

There is no question of that: For the disci­ples of Christ, and his Apostles combined together with one consent, carried them, and by preaching spread them into euery corner of the world.

But if at this time there should be any lan­guage found, wherein the text and Scripture were different from that of other languages, what ought [Page] then to be done?

It must be confessed that this did arise out of the ignorance of the Scribe: And that it ought to be corrected, and that text be made to agree with all o­ther texts agreeing betweene themselues, especially with those texts, and most ancient bookes which were the first, and best corrected, that is, with those written in the languages of Abraham, the Syrians, Greekes, and Latines.

Thine opinion is good and very probable, & for my part I embrace it; and I do heare with great comfort, That there is such a consent of bookes writ­ten in different languages.

This was not the worke of man; but the will of God: For so Christ saith in the glorious Gospell, It is possible that the heauenly orbes may perish or faile, as also the earth: But it is not possible that there should faile or perish one letter of the law of God the most high, and of my precepts.

Tell me, I pray you, whether were there any other, beside our Prophet, which euer did speake with the angell Gabriell, or not?

With the Di­uell he did as­soone. Yes verily. And not with Gabriel onely, but with God himselfe. For we do reade that many of the ancient Prophets, and holy fathers did talke with them, and one of them, for examples sake, was Abra­ham the prophet.

Was that hee which built the famous city Meccha, the Lord make vs noble by it?

Mecha built by Abraham.Yea, euen hee which beleeued in God, and was obedient vnto his word. And Moses also, he spake with God vpon mount Sina; when as for the [Page] complement of mankind and of the world, that is of his people, God gaue them the law, and the tenne commandements.

But who else did euer speake with Angels?

Abraham the prophet, and Lot the prophet, and Iacob, and many others: But Abraham did not 17 onely speake with them; but there were with him at his house three Angels, which conuersed with him, and hosted there. It is also read, that Abraham saw three Angels, but adored but one onely; In the God­head are three persons, euen the Mussle­mans do con­fesse. Now this one, was God the Father, with his eternall Word, to­gether with his eternall Spirit, that is, that one God, which created all the world, and doth preserue and command the same.

When these talked with God, or with the Angels, did they fall downe vpon the earth, as our prophet did, and did their colour alter?

No, A third kind of adoration, to be added to their Latria and Doulia. but a certaine spirituall and bodily vir­tue and powre did possesse them.

Seeing thou hast made mention of Abra­ham, Tell me wherefore he ordained the couenant? And why do wee now performe, and obserue the same couenant?

God said vnto Abraham, That all the nati­ons, 18 and kindreds of the earth should be blessed in his seed. The end and vse of Circum­cision. Moreouer he said, That his seede should go in amongst idolaters: and therefore lest the Iewish nati­on should communicate with the wicked people, he commanded the law of the Couenant, that by it they might be distinguished from them.

Therefore by that Couenant the Iewes were distinguished from prophane people, and [Page] other idolaters.

Yea verily, he commanded it for this cause, and therefore as concerning the Iewish nation, so long as it remained in the wildernesse, which was the space of 40 years, this statute tooke no place a­mongst them; but they were free from it: But so soone as they were gone out of the desart, this statute was commanded new againe.

Wherefore then did our Prophet enioyne 19 it vs, seeing that our nation hath alwaies commerce continually with men of other nations, as it is appa­rant to all men.

In this place I do know no other answer, but that our Prophet hath so commanded.

Ipse dixit.Yet it were good that a reason were knowne of this command, that an answer might be ready, for any that should make question of it.

And in my vnderstanding, silence is best in such a case.

Therefore let vs talke of some other matter. I suppose that I haue read in the Alkoran, in the chapter Ssad: And againe in the Chapter Albakara, That certaine Angels were conuerted into the shape of Satan, because that out of their pride, they oppo­sed themselues against the commandement of God, when he commanded them to worship Adam.

Yea in deed, so it is written.

Why would God that the creature of greater dignity, to wit an Angell, should worship one of baser condition then it selfe, to wit Adam: For he is made of earth, and is mortall?

I know no other answer, but thus it is writ­ten [Page] in that booke. Risum tenea­tis amici? [...]e Moone, dou [...]t­lesse, in Mo [...]ā ­meds opinion is ma [...]e of a greene che [...]se. H [...]re the Mus­sleman [...]aile [...] in his As [...]rono­mie: For the Moone is lesser then the earth; althoug [...] I sup­pose it [...] much too grea [...] for ha [...]fe of it to be put into Mohammeds sleeue.

It is also written in the Alkoran, That the Moone was diuided equally into two parts: And that one halfe went into Mohammeds sleeue; and the other halfe fell downe to the ground, and yet after this, these two halfes were vnited and set toge­ther againe miraculously by him.

It is very true, so we do reade, and this was a miraculous act of our Prophet.

How was that possible that the Moone should fall to the earth? And how could it go into the sleeue of a man, seeing that the breadth of it is greater then all the whole earth?

So it is. Thy reasons and doubts are good, and they seeme to proceede from good vnderstan­ding; but I know no other answer then that our pro­phet 21 hath so said.

Moreouer there are written by him 12,000 sayings; And one saith, That in the Alkoran are very many fables [...] that the speeches that are true & good are but 3,000: Therefore all the residue are false. And therefore how shal a man be able to distin­guish the truth from falshood? If he were a Prophet, how came it to passe that he spake that which was not true? For in asmuch as he was a Prophet, hee ought continually to speake truth, as the bookes of the rest of the Prophets do.

In this place also, in regard of the maiestie & depth of the thing, I hold it best to be silent.

Next after this, let vs question of some words and sayings of the Alkoran: For it is full of such like as those former are. Thou saidst, That the world was full of idols; How then did all nations en­tertaine [Page] and receiue so easily tha [...] law of his, I meane 22 of Christ, which indeed is deepe, but not broad nor obscure?

It was plan­ted with much oppression.They did not receiue that with such facility; But with much adoe, long labour, and strong oppo­sition; By the testimony of Martyrs, and effusion of blood, for the space of 300 yeares: And perse­cution. For with much oppression also euen by the most principall power of the Emperoure of Rome were the Christians tor­mented and afflicted grieuously.

How were they at the length pacified?

In few words, his Apostles, that is, the disci­ples of Christ, But at length the truth pre­uailed. did many miracles, great, and true; so that at length the truth it selfe ouercame all those that gainsaid and withstood it.

Seeing then that the Gospell is holy and good: And that in it is nothing but truth and perfe­ction, Why, as our Prophet also saith, ought we not to be obedient vnto the precepts thereof; And why 23 do wee not rule our actions according to the rules of it?

Indeed we ought to follow it without doubt, there is no question of it.

I would faine know out of the bookes of Moses, or out of the Gospels, or ou [...] of the bookes of the rest of the Prophets, and Psalmes of Dauid, which are so much commēded in the Alkoran, whe­ther wee may reade there any thing of the truth of God: Of his nature and essence; And of his will? And of what matter he created the world and all things in it?

I will answer vnto the last onely; and I do af­firme, [Page] that Moses writeth, That our blessed God, by his blessed and holy word alone, did create the world. Moreouer also Dauid writeth, That Elohim, that is God the most high, had all things with him for a patterne of the workes of Christ to come, and of his Apostles. And to be briefe, the ancient wri­tings and the Gospell do agree of one truth, of those 24 things which concerne Christ, which afterward were not by parables and figures; but were clearely taught of Christ by demonstration, and manifestation of the way of truth and practise, (according to the will and pleasure of God) of the attaining of the glory of the kingdome of heauen, that is, of Paradise.

But I heare that his precepts are very hard & subtill.

Yet Christ saith, My burthen, that is my pre­cept, and my law is good and sweet. For it is the law of loue and mercy; And wheresoeuer there is loue & compassion, in very deed there is God; And there­fore by his aide and assistance whatsoeuer it be that doth seeme to vs and our sences, heauie and difficult, shall be made light and easie.

These great perfections were by our Pro­phet attributed to the glorious Gospell; and there­fore 25 he calleth it, perfect, and a gift giuen of God.

It must needs be confessed, that he attribu­teth to him a diuine perfection; and that his power it was, which was seene to be in him, by reason of those many miracles which he did; As it is read, That hee gaue sight to the blind, which was so borne by na­ture: Hearing to the deafe: Speech to the dumb: And life vnto the dead, after they had bene laid [Page] in the graue.

How was the law of Moses receiued of the Iewes, which they did so much withstand?

The law of God was con­firmed by mi­racles, blood of Martyrs, and Demonstratiō:It was giuen by God, vnto Moses in mount Sina, with thunder, lightening, and fire falling vpon the multitude of men which stood vnder the mount: For the men heard and saw all that was done to come 26 [...]rom God: And therefore they did confesse that that same law was giuen by God: Moses also did shew great miracles, and was famous amongst men for his Religion and loue of God almightie toward him.

But the Alko­ran was not thus confir­med: There­fore it is not the law of God.In like maner also, if the law of our Prophet and his Alkoran of so great esteeme be giuen of God, it is meete that it be confirmed by the testimony of Martyrs: By the perswasion of miracles: And by some demonstration from God almighty.

The Alkoran of Mohammed established by Stafford lawIn the Alkoran there is no mention at all made of miracles, done by our Prophet, more thē of a pro­phecy of the said Prophet, saying, That his law is good and giuen of God: And that whosoeuer shall not follow it, or shall not receiue it, he ought to be slaine with the sword: Or else he must pay a tribute if he persist in his owne religion.

Seeing then that God almightie, for the con­firmation of his law and of his owne word, did shew 27 miracles continually; Why now are there required the speare and sword, which are offensiue things, & spilling of blood; seeing that he himselfe, out of the fulnesse of his mercy, saith, I wish not death & mur­thers, but life? Moreouer, he created vs in his good pleasure, that we with a good will in loue might re­ceiue [Page] his law, and yeeld that vnto him, which is due to our God and Creator.

So it is written by our Prophet, and so he hath commanded vs. But I will not forget to answer your second question which you proposed before, to wit out of the Gospel, Whether there be in it any thing to be obserued of God, or no? And what thing the nature of God is? I say that thou hast, in making these questions, committed a great sinne, in that thou durst for shame speake such a thing. For man ought to know that God is constant and true: And that he is the Creator of all things, visible and inuisible. But what his essence and nature is, that we cannot 28 vnderstand or know: For within the compasse of our vnderstanding that his nature doth not fall: But when our vnderstanding doth diue into the i [...] ­uention of this thing, it is left wholly in base igno­rance: Euen as our eie, being opposed against the beames of the Sunne, doth not onely not see it, and lose the light of it: but doth wholy lose the faculty of seeing, which before it had. Beleeue therefore, good sonne, in humility whatsoeuer is to be beleeued concerning the things of God. And run not out at any time into speeches to say, That God cannot do all things: For God is omnipotent, and doth much in many matters, whose causes we can by no meanes know, neither ought we to search into them: For they remaine layd vp in the treasurie of his secrets, which cannot be comprehended.

I haue sinned, and I do acknowledge my sinne: For it is true that thou hast said. But I would willingly know for what cause our Prophet doth call [Page] 29 Christ, The word of God, or the soule of God, or his spirit: That Christ is the word of God; And the breath and spirit of God, Mohammed sheweth by a similitude. Yet I know not whether I may aske that question, or not.

Yes, you may, and it is easie to answer it. Christ is the soule or word of God, as the beames of the Sunne are the very essence of the Sunne, and na­ture thereof.

Therefore we may say, As the Sunne is in heauen and in earth perfectly by his beames: So is God in the height, and in the earth, by Christ his word.

It is right. There can no comparison nor si­militude be made of any thing amongst all the works of God to r [...]present this vnto the vnderstanding but by this example.

I thinke so. But I see another thing beside the beames and the Sunne, and that also distinctly, to wit, heate, by whose cause and vertue, whatsoeuer is seene vpon the earth doth grow and spring.

So is there in God almightie and his word: 30 For out of them do proceed and arise the holy Spi­rit, by whom our spirit doth liue, and moue, to do that which is good. And where there is the helpe & furtherance of this spirit increasing, there euery thing is easie, and there is much ioy.

The Lord blesse you. I am very glad of this sweet conference, and my soule is much comforted in all thou hast said.

This fruite springeth not from me. But it sheweth it selfe out of the vnfained workes. God be­stoweth vpon vs these good fruits, and fame thereof vpon all men: For they do reioyce and delight them­selues, [Page] and rest quiet in the vnderstanding and in the spirit, as thou dost at this time.

O that all Musslemans were taught and in­structed by thee. For then I hope that euery one of them would be as wise men are, ioying and conten­ting 31 themselues in that pleasure that is infinite. For that man which resteth not satisfied and contented in these demonstrations, is by me esteemed as a foole, and no wiseman.

Our Prophet also doth honour and magnifie the mysteries of God the most high; but doth con­ceale them: And therefore he hath adiudged it to be true and without doubt, That Christ was borne of Mary the virgine: For so he doth absolutely confesse, and he maketh no doubt at all of it, but that this na­tiuity was one of the great workes of the blessed God. And this ought to be the faith and confession of euery one, and to make no question of it. For that were a meere deniall of it.

Why do we search into the profound se­crets of the power of God, and of the knowledge of him which is infinite; seeing we do not know the causes of naturall operations, which are wrought in our owne bodies, and soules also; to wit, How wee 32 are borne? How we do grow? How we are of little infants, made great men, and many other such like, which do appeare manifestly to our eies, and yet we are ignorant of their causes?

See therefore how excellent the word of God is, and how wonderfull; which although it be from the mouth of some weake seruant, yet it wor­keth wonderfull matters; as wee reade of Elias the [Page] Prophet, who in the name of God caused fire to come downe from heauen. Now he doth come neare vnto Elias, whatsoeuer he be that doth call vp­on the name of Christ. Amongst the idolaters, the idols did fall downe, and were broken in peeces, by the vertue of his glorious name.

I also do reade and haue heard by many, That in the name of God almigh [...]ie and Christ, the Christians haue done the like miracles as these are, 33 and that by the word of God they haue reuiued the dead.

We ought to confesse and beleeue in God with humblenesse of mind; as Abraham the Pro­phet did, who, out of the perfection of his beleefe, would haue sacrificed his sonne Ishak; notwithstan­ding God had promised vnto Abraham, that in his seed all Nations should be blessed. Now in the time of slaughter, the Angell Gabriell came downe from heauen, and caught him by the hand, that he should not kill him; and came with a Lambe, or a Ram, which was to be sacrificed: and so Ishak was not slaine; although he were offered vp by his father, & laid vpon the altar, and vpon the wood; yet he was preserued aliue.

This was a great myst [...]rie, and must needs signifie some great matter.

It is indeed a g [...]e [...]t mysterie; But this time, 34 is not a time to vnfold it.

N [...]ither haue I any desire, at this time, to search into any secret mysterie: But hereafter I will, as farre as it may stand with humility, and the feare of God, doing good workes vnto my soules health.

[Page]

Euery wise and vnderstanding man ought to do and to thinke thus: For the losse of those good things which God offereth to vs in Paradise, are a great dammage.

I am desirous to heare what those good things are: therefore tell me them. For in the reci­tall of them we shall be incited to do good works.

Our Prophet in his glorious Alkoran saith, That God will giue to those that do good, all pleasant graces, faire houses, virgines, and damsels: Moreo­uer, that to euery man seuerally he will giue of euery thing store, together with goodly garments; Now all this shall be cause of very much ioy.

I maruaile much at this: For our Prophet 35 also in the glorious Alkoran saith, That men shall come & shall be gathered together in the day of pro­mise with goodly bodies, which shall neuer die at all: And therefore man shall not neede to eate: because he shall not die. Neither shall he haue any need of women: For in Paradise he shall haue no children: For in this world God giueth women for issue and childrens sake. And if a man haue issue, hauing eter­nall life, that is, being a citizen of heauen, I demand of thee, How their children shall be? If they be mor­tall, or subiect to death; then it followeth, That of an immortall man should be borne him that were mor­tall, which were absurd to grant: For euery thing begetteth some thing like it selfe. Now if an immor­tall man should be begotten, this were a new kind of 36 generation, which is also absurd.

As I haue said, this is thus read in our Pro­phet; but this is one of those fictions, which himselfe [Page] saith he did write in iest: For our state without doubt, shall be like vnto the blessed estate of the An­gels, and other heauenly spirits, enioying the glory of God. For there must be in Paradise no considera­tion of meate, drinke, women, or such things. For all these things are giuen to vs of God, in this world, as conuenient for our bodies, and fleshly part of ours, that are imperfect of themselues, to preserue man­kind; And are no waies necessary [...]or this purpose in Paradise.

I also do verily thinke so: Of Adams creation: For we all know generally, That God created Adam; And that out 37 of his side he also formed one woman; And that he said to Adam, This is flesh of thy flesh, and they two were one flesh, that is, one man, with one woman.

Of his fall: Man after the fall of Adam, fell into a state that was not very perfect, but disordered: And by this meanes one man is not content with one wo­man, but doth desire many and diuerse, for the sa­tisfying of his concupiscence, and lust that he hath vnto their company. Moreouer also we know that garments were at the first giuen of God to Adam & Heua, to couer their nakednesse withall, after they had committed sinne: But man hath made himselfe goodly apparell, of new and diuerse fashions. Adam 38 had an house for the needfull vse of it; that man (which was borne naked without haire, which other liuing creatures haue, that do moue and abide in the ayre) might dwell in it, to defend himselfe from the violence of summer and winter; From the danger of cold, and heate of the Sunne; From raine, and snow, and such like things offending.

[Page]

Heare, I pray you, that saying, That euery man hath need of a wife, an house, and apparell ano­ther day in Paradise, What Para­dise is? seemeth to argue that there is no Paradise: For Paradise is a place wherein there is all good things, without any manner of want: also life eternall, without death.

Thou saist true; and we do know it to be so: But thus our Prophet hath written: And therefore we must say nothing.

Where truth may be spoken, and that to the saluation of our soules, there we ought not to hold our peace; but euery man is bound to seeke for his 39 saluation, yea although he should swarue from all the world else; and indeed thus he ought to do. For what profite do Noblemen, Princes and Kings get, by their obtaining and enioying of honour, or the whole world, and of other Arab. Slaues, where­in a great part of the Mus­slemans riches doth consist. riches, by the sword and speare and by death, without the knowledge of his law? seeing also that by this ignorance, their soules do remaine, by the iust iudgement of God, (for their pride, without faith,) accursed with the diuels in Ge­henna for euer and euer.

These conceipts of yours do strike a terrour into me. But that this sinne be not laid to the charge of my soule, I will satisfie thee; yet to morrow; not now. For now the time is well spent, and the night groweth on. I will, I say, tell [...]hee and declare vnto thee matters of great moment and weight, which I 40 haue learned by my study, more then 40 yeares since, of our law, and other bookes which our Pro­phet doth highly commend; And I doubt not but thou shalt rest satisfied and well pleased. But go a­long [Page] with vs on our iourney.

The Lord increase your Honours health, and the Lord blesse you. I am bound alwaies to loue you especially aboue all men, for this your promise, and I hope you will performe as much; and I shall alwaies pray vnto the Lord to reward you for it abundantly. Well, let vs go on our iourney.

The second Dialogue.

I Did so reioyce at our confe­rence, 41 which we had yesterday, that since I was borne I do not remember that euer any thing hath reioyced me more.

In deed, this is the excellent property of the vnderstanding, when it learneth any spirituall thing, and is delighted with diuine conceipts; where our soule resteth, as in the worthinesse and blessednesse of them, it desireth alwaies to go on forward.

Therefore many men, being in some grie­uous sinne, when they are by their owne will, depri­ued of this spirituall delight, they are delighted onely with worldly and bodily pleasures, like brute beasts, which haue no vnderstanding nor capacity.

And on the contrary, wisemen alwaies of eue­ry 42 profession & countrey haue knowne, and taught, That the true ioy and comfort of man is in liuing ac­cording vnto reason. For in it is his perfection; not in lustfull sensuality: for in it is nought but vile shame, by no meanes to be entertained, and for the most part vnlawfull.

Moreouer also, This ioy that doth arise out of knowledge, as thou hast said, I take to be another kind of ioy; and man also himselfe delighteth and ioyeth in it much more then in the other.

[Page]

What manner of thing is this?

It is that when a man cometh to honour, wealth, or command ouer other men.

This is indeed a ioy; but it is a worldly ioy, and that which soone decayeth: For it hath an end at 43 the death of the body: Yea and oft-times also before the death of the body it is lost by many accidents & casualties. But the spirituall ioy which is according vnto perfection, beginneth in this world, and con­tinueth in the world to come for euer and euer. For it draweth our soule vnto his true end, that is, vnto God our Creator.

In truth there is a great difference betweene this ioy, and that: And seeing that this ioy, which thou callest worldly ioy, is so small a ioy, of little con­tinuance, and doth so soone decay; I do maruaile why all wise men do not seeke after this which is e­ternall and stable.

This groweth and ariseth out of the imper­fection of wisedome in them. But he is wise indeed, that doth seeke and labour to find himselfe euery day thus reioycing more and more.

Teach me therefore, I pray thee for Gods 44 sake, how a man may begin to enter into this way, & to seeke it with his heart.

First of all, he must winde himselfe out of all desire of worldly businesses, wealth, and worldly pre­ferments, and that from the heart; as in deed being things that are but additaments, hindering our course to runne from all lustfull sensualitie that is vn­lawfull. For the earnest endeuour of the Spirit, and fleshly concupiscence, contending one with another, [Page] do stay the course of the Spirit, and meditation of godly matters.

What thing then may helpe a man, to separate himselfe from these vnlawfull things?

This shall be done by the helpe of God; By the meanes of an vpright life; By obtaining of per­fection; that is, by true religious seruice, and know­ledge of the precepts of God, and of his Law: By relying vpon him; and being moued according to 45 his will and pleasure.

Teach me, for God almighties sake, out of the law of our Prophet, out of euery Assora of the same, some certaine perfections, which I may fol­low: and some other out of the commandements of God, which I may follow. For the law which was giuen of God must needs containe all perfections & holy rules.

This demand of thine doth shew, that thou hast not read the Alkoran.

Why do you say so, seeing that you know that I loue to reade it at certaine conuenient times?

This therefore thou must know, That our Prophet doth say, that there is not any one man that can vnderstand the Alkoran: And that himselfe also did not know the meaning and exposition of it: And that God alone doth know the sence of it. 46

Moreouer this is well knowne vnto vs all, That our Prophet did go vp into heauen: And there­fore wee must needs know what perfection he was worthy of, for this fauour.

In deed himselfe doth record in the Alko­ran, [Page] That he ascended vp into the highest heauen: Fabula plus­quam Tal­mudica. One of R. Lumleys tales. but he speaketh not one word of his worth, dignity, and perfection. But he saith, That Gabriel on a night did knocke at his gate; and he arose out of his bed, where he did sleepe with his wife Aïsha; and he ope­ned the gate, and the Angell saluted him; and said vn­to him, The peace of God be vpon thee and thy wife: thou must with me go vp into heauen, that thou maist see in this blessed night the secrets of God. Now this vision and iourney did neuer befall to any sonne of Adam. Item, he reporteth in the Alkoran, 47 That he rode vpon Barak, which was with Gabriel; And Barak did speake, saying, Thou shalt not ride me, except thou wilt promise me to pray for me, be­fore the maiestie of God almightie, and his excellen­cie. Then riding vpon him, he was carried, as he saith in his Alkoran, (praise be giuen to him that led his seruant vnto his end) and from thence also he went vp by staires, euen vnto the very throne of God, as he saith.

I am amazed at this thine answer.

Wherefore and for what cause?

For that if we do yeeld to go to heauen, ei­ther by Barak, or by any other going vp, by the meanes of the Angell, & by ascent vp by the meanes of staires, as our Prophet went vp by Gods helpe, & speciall fauour; then we shall neuer come to hea­uen: 48 because this speciall helpe shall not be granted to all the world. Furthermore tell me, I charge thee in Gods name, seeing it is not possible to vnderstand the Alkoran, how God Almightie doth command that we should follow it? And seeing the law is not [Page] to be knowne, it is impossible also to obserue it. And if we which do follow it, do not vnderstand how to keepe it and vse it; then how is it possible to do after the will of almightie God, that by the meanes of this law, we may demand of him Paradise?

I say vnto thee, as our Prophet did say, speak­ing of his owne religion. But I will not declare this plainely: For God onely knoweth the sence of the Alkoran.

I do not beleeue that there was euer any other religion in the world but this, that was vn­knowne to those that were bound to keepe it, and to follow it.

Without all doubt the law of Moses, the 49 ancient Prophets, and the glorious Gospell, were written orderly, and plainely: And therefore our Prophet in the Assora intituled Ionas, saith; If there be any doubt to thee in religion, I haue told thee & enioyned thee, saying, Seeke the declaration and ex­position thereof of them which did reade it before we did: to wit, of the Iewes, and of the Christians, which did reade the Law and the Gospell before our time.

I did neuer reade the Gospell, neither did it euer seeme good vnto me to take that labor in hand: For I do know that I shall not be able to attaine vnto it; that is, to conceiue how those Christians do worship one God onely; and yet they say that Christ is the Sonne of God; Now the Father and the Sonne are two Gods; seeing also that God Almighty hath a Sonne not hauing a wife.

If there be no other greater difficulty then this, [Page] 50 despaire not; for an answer is easily shaped to this question. For I my selfe, was once of this opinion, but I wished that I might vnderstād it. And at length I was satisfied and fully perswaded of it; for it is a thing plaine enough, and it cannot be denied.

In mine opinion it is a very strange thing, that thou shouldst say, It is a matter manifest: But thou art a great learned man, and very old, and thou saidst, I was satisfied. I intreate thee therefore, for God almighties cause, to shew me the exposition of it; that I may learne, and make profite by thee.

Hearken with the eare of the spirit: for ex­cept thou do so, thou shalt not vnderstand me. For this doth turne it selfe vnto almighty God.

Say on, ô SHEICH, I intreate thee for Gods cause.

I say, That the Christians do confesse that 51 there is one God, simple, euerlasting, eternall, almightie, iust, as we Musslemans do confesse.

In this point therefore our confessions do agree.

They do say, That the Father, the Sonne, & the holy Ghost, are but one God: For all these three are onely but one diuine essence.

This I do also well vnderstand.

Thou vnderstoodst yesterday, how that eue­ry rationall soule of man had three faculties, to wit, Vnderstanding, Memory, and Will; Yet the man, in whom this soule is, is no more but one man.

This also is true, and it behooueth euery man to confesse so much.

I do also beleeue that the rayes of the Sunne [Page] do come out of it: And that from the fire heate doth issue; And that a word doth arise out of the vn­derstanding 52 vttering it.

All this also is cleare.

Now we say, That he that begetteth is the Father: And that which is begotten is the Sonne.

In deed so they say.

So in the same manner therefore the Chri­stians do say, That Christ was the Sonne of God: Because he is his word; and God is the Father: For he was begotten of him; as the speech is begotten of Reason; and as of the Sunne, the beames. Now as reason and speech are of one & the same essence; And the nature of the Sunne, and of his raies are one and the same: So Christ the Sonne, with the Father hath one and the same nature; And the essence of them is one and the same: And therefore they are but one God, and not two Gods. Now because that our Prophet in the Assora intituled Annesa, saith, That Christ is the word of God; we must needs, in regard of the former demonstrations a little before premi­sed, 53 also confesse, That he is the Sonne of God; be­cause he is his word, and is borne of him: it follo­weth therefore, That there is but one God. For the essence of both being but one; also the diuine nature is but one and the same. And to say without any ground, That God almightie should not haue a Son without a Wife, were mere madnesse: For God is a very spirit: and in this diuine generation there nee­deth no vse of a woman. Whosoeuer denieth this, denieth also and saith, that God is not an essence. For in God there is no dimension. He denieth also and [Page] saith, that God doth not liue. For he doth not eate. Now this is mere ignorance and a great madnesse.

This is plaine, that God doth not eate to su­staine life, as man doth: otherwise he should not be God.

And therefore I say, seeing that our Prophet 54 doth say, That Christ is the word of God, and doth name the word, his Sonne; (for he is borne of him) therefore we must also confesse, that Christ is the Sonne of God; thus then your question is answered.

By these parables that thou hast declared, it seemeth so in my iudgement: and that it may not be denied. For indeed thou hast expounded the mat­ter truly and well: and I am glad of it, and in all things I am well satisfied.

I told thee, That those diuine and heauenly things which are not seene, are not comprehēded by the vnderstanding, neither are they conceiued of vs, but by the meanes of some other creatures of God.

Well, but I haue another doubt, and that also a great one. It seemeth that we cannot reade the Mosaicall bookes, for this purpose: And in like man­ner the Gospell, can we not reade for expositions and comments, although our Prophet do command the same.

How is this question another doubt?

The doubt is, That all those bookes were altered and corrupted by the Christians, especially the name of our Prophet, as the Musslemans do af­firme.

Art thou then one of them which do thinke so?

[Page]

I do verily beleeue as all other of them do beleeue.

But this is a foule error, for this reason one­ly: If the Mosaicall bookes and the Gospell had bene altered; or if they should haue bene one oppo­site to another, our Prophet would not haue said, That his writings should bee corrected by those bookes. And in like manner it cannot be said, That they were corrupted, for this one other reason also: For the Christians and the Iewes are contrary one to another, and there was alwaies enmity betweene them: But the text to them both is but one and the 56 same. In a word, the Hebrew text of the Iewes, doth agree with the Greeke and Latine texts word for word. Furthermore, after the daies of our Prophet, which was after Christ, somewhat more then 600 yeares, as I told thee yesterday, there were alwaies hereticks, as Arians, Nestorians, Iacobites, & others; seeing that they all haue one Gospell agreeing in all points: And for that because in diuerse languages, in the which they are found written: And that in all corners & kingdomes of the world, the text is found so to agree, that not so much as in one iot or title they do disagree; seeing it is thus, I say, it cannot be iustly said, that the Iewes and Christians haue agreed, throughout the whole world, of such diuerse nati­ons, to blot ought out of the bookes aforesaid. Nei­ther doth it satisfie reason to say, That they haue blot­ted 57 out the name of our Prophet, who in the Alko­ran, in many places doth commend Christ, and the Virgine Mary his mother. Therefore if the Christi­ans had put out any names, they would haue put out [Page] the name of the Iew, which was the cause of his death; or the name of Pilate, who crucified Christ; not Mohammed, that commendeth him.

If this be thus, it is confessed by thee, that these bookes were neuer corrupted; and then, that they are bookes which had remained 600 yeares, to wit, from Christ vnto the coming of our Prophet.

By the aforesaid demonstrations, thou must of necessitie say so, willingly beleeue it, and confesse as much. For the contrary & aduerse opinion is eue­ry way without any shew of probability, and hath no ground.

Our Prophet, in the Chapter Albakara, saith in the person of God himselfe: We haue sent downe the prophecie of God, and we haue kept it. Now it seemeth to me, that the meaning of this word Pro­phecie, is nothing else but the glorious Gospell.

So indeed this place is vnderstood.

Therefore our Prophet saith it, that he also doth magnifie the Gospell, and doth according to the precepts of the same.

This is very apparant: For he doth highly commend it, and saith that it was giuen by God, and is complete and perfect.

I haue read also in the Chapter Almaïda this saying, To haue many bookes and to increase them doth profite nothing, without a fulfilling of the Gospell and the Law, that is, of that which our Pro­phet doth [...]each in it.

By hauing of bookes, are [...]ignified the Musslemans: and so it is vnderstood also in the As­sora Annesa, and other places.

[Page]

We say, That God Almightie gaue the 59 Law to our Prophet last of all, as a [...]eale of the Pro­phets, and complement of the law of those which went before. How then is it giuen vnto the Mosai­call law and the Gospell?

We do also say, he is a generall Prophet to all Prophets. But wee know that he knew not any language but the Arabicke tongue only; neither did he speake any other language; neither had he lear­ned any other tongue; And indeed the Alkoran is not found written in any other language but in the Arabicke tongue onely.

Therefore there remaineth yet another great difficultie, videl. How this law should be vniuersall, seeing that it is not found written but in the Arabick tongue onely; and for that this our Prophet could not speake any word of any other language: and be­cause that he and his law were not for all men, & for all creatures or people.

Wherefore do you thinke so?

Because I do see that God Almighty would first that the Gospell should be for a generall law to 60 all men: And therefore God of all goodnesse gaue the knowledge of all tongues miraculously to his A­postles, and to his Disciples and Preachers. Where­fore they by & by preached it throughout the whole world: and the Gospell was written in all langua­ges. Now this thing was requisite for vs also to do, both for the honour of God, and his praise, as also for the saluation of our soules, throughout all king­domes of the world; seeing that our Prophet doth say in the Chapter Amran, That no one man shall [Page] be saued, but by his mediation or by his law, and not otherwise.

I told thee, that our Prophet saith, that himselfe doth not vnderstand his owne law; but God onely doth vnderstand it: for he is most skilfull. Who there­fore can teach it, or know how to preach it?

Therefore we do follow that, which is vn­knowne to vs. Now how much, and how grossely do they erre, which do not vnderstand, or haue not heard the law? But by your patience I vnderstand that this reason is not receiued as current.

Wherefore?

Because that in the Alkoran there is in truth no sentence written, but it may be vnderstood of e­uery one that vnderstandeth the Arabicke tongue: Yea and thou knowest it: for thou had read much.

I know well, but in respect of the loftines of the phrases of our Prophet, I spake it.

But let vs leaue all other demonstrations, and let vs consider this one sentence onely, to wit, that saying, (That God gaue his law in the world, which may not be vnderstood, especially of those which follow i,t) it is beyond the reach of reason, and compasse of faith.

Truth it is, that this is strange: yet it may not be spoken of God Almightie. For an vnderstanding and iust man, doth not command to another man, any thing but that which he doth vnderstand, which is within his abilitie, & is possible for him to do. And so if God be most wise and iust, he will not force the soule to any thing, but that which is within compasse of it. This confession is sound, and thus we ought to [Page] beleeue: For God is most wise and iust in very deed.

Yet I cannot but maruaile, how it cometh to passe, that our Prophet, in his Alkoran, which is the law of God, a serious matter, as wherein is declared the meanes of the saluation of our soules, hath inser­ted 63 in it such small matters, and so impertinent; As of the Ant, of the Smoake, and such like: for these do no way further a man in matters of religion or of his saluation. I pray you, what profite do you get by the Ant that did speake? or did not speake, but laugh? Or that the heauen was made of the smoake; and the smoake, of greene things and of the sea? And that the sea doth run from the mount Kaf, which doth com­passe the whole world, and the earth, and supporteth the celestiall orbes?

This the Astronomers do denie: yea all Phi­losophers do improue this opinion. But therefore they are spoken parabolically.

It is a foule shame that we should say so: that in our law I meane there should be any such thing, that either of wise men, or of others, should be taken as false and fabulous: For then euery thing 64 should remaine doubtfull and vncertaine: neither do I know which way or what part to take, to proue, that this law onely is true and neces [...]ary to saluation; seeing that wee cannot proue this, That it was demonstrated by apparant miracles from God. Now if it shall be said, that this Law came from God [...] as the Law of Moses did, which God gaue vnto Moses in mount Sinai, in the day time, with fire, thundring, and great lightning, for the sa­tisfaction of his people, which saw and heard, [Page] and certainly knew that God gaue it. Thus also was the Gospell confirmed by miracles, and great won­ders, which Christ first did; then his Apostles, and lastly his Disciples; As, the giuing of life vnto the dead in all sorts of men; The giuing of sight of the 65 eies to the blind: hearing to the deafe, health to those that were sicke of any manner of disease; as our Pro­phet doth also witnesse in the end of the Chapter Al­maïda of his Alkoran. Lastly, his ascēsion into heauē, by his owne perfection onely; at noone day: in the presence of his Apostles, of such I meane as were his followers; The coming of the holy Ghost vpon his Disciples in the day time also; and that with thun­dring and lightning: of the firie tongues; and of the Disciples which did beleeue and feare, became blind and fearelesse, and without any feare did assaile all the wisemen, and learned men of the whole world.

I haue heard as much, and all thou hast said is true: But now I answer saying, I do maruaile at thee; thou wouldest haue all things that our Prophet hath written to be sound, and yet he himselfe saith, I haue 66 spoken 12000 sayings and sentences; of which 3000 onely are true: the rest are grosse absurdities.

I say once more, that the Law of God must be true; there must be no contrariety in it. For God is most pure and true iustice, he is most wise, neither is it possible that he should be contrary to himselfe a­ny waies.

I do confesse that your words are true, and that your obiections are discreet. I my selfe haue stu­died very diligently these 40 yeares these matters, yet I cannot answer thee. And moreouer your words I [Page] cannot but approoue. Well, it is good that we leaue these things thus at this time.

If my speech be not burdensome vnto thee, I pray thee let me bring one other doubt, which I would faine vnderstand, and which for the honour 67 and credit of our Prophet and his law, I wish I might be taught by thee.

I haue told thee, and promised thee, to an­swer thee faithfully and truly: and therefore say what thou wilt and thinkest good, I will heare thee willingly.

Amongst all the good things that apper­taine to a man, virginity, and purity of bodie is the chiefe, and greatest of all. For a man is borne a vir­gine, and so continueth, vntill by the suggestion of the diuell and vntamed lust, he is made to fall into the bottomlesse pit of sinne.

This indeed is a speciall vertue, and Angeli­call perfection.

It is also the perfection of mankind: yet in­deed it is not for euery one; but for Saints. Wee do reade in the law of Elias, that he was a virgine, and so did alway continue: Moreouer in the Gospell wee reade, that Iohn the sonne of Zachary, and Iohn one 68 of the disciples of Christ, were virgines. And indeed, that which is commended of all and receiued for truth; and is also of our Prophet receiued and great­ly commended, is, that Mary, the virgine, the mother of Christ, was conceiued by the holy Ghost; and that after the birth of Christ she also remained a maid & virgine for euer as long as she liued. Now by this per­fection, that is, by virginitie, it is knowne that he was [Page] of God accepted for his perfection.

And this euery man doth beleeue and con­fesse: but of this what doubt dost thou make?

Marrie this; seeing that our Prophet was not a virgine, as other Prophets were, which were pure, and beloued friends of God, it must needs be that he was one of the company of the shamelesse and void of grace.

Why doest thou say so? what, was he shame­lesse?

It is not sufficient to say it: but it shall bee prooued: for he that loueth perfection, he doth not only not do any vile thing: but he doth not so much as speake any misbeseeming speech. Now seeing that our Prophet did not onely write that he had many wiues: but he writeth also that he loued his maide, and lay with her; and thereupon when Aïsha his wife was angry with it and rebuked him, he pro­mised with a great oath, that he would abstaine from her bed: Yet afterward in the Chapter Atta [...]rim he saith, That God did pardon and dispence with that oath for him, by the testimonie of Gabriel and Ra­chael: and therefore at another time also he lay with his maid, notwithstanding his promise aforesaid, & then his wife said nothing to it: Item, in the Chapter 70 Alahzab it is read that he tooke the wife of Zeid his seruant, vnto himselfe. And he saith, speaking it from God, that he doth not feare any man: for God gaue him the wife of Zeid. Mohammed was a good fa­milist. Moreouer it is read also, that God willed him to lie with the wiues of the faithfull; that Prophets might be begotten by him; when as notwithstanding it is cleare, that there was [Page] no Prophet begotten by him: For he did not leaue any issue male behind him. Seeing then that our law and the Alkoran is the law of God, which is iust and holy, how could our Prophet be absolued from that oath, which he did make concerning the lying with his maid, to saue himselfe from the breaking of the promise to his wife? And wherfore did God dispense with him, that he might haue the wife of Zeid; see­ing that this is not matrimonie, but fornication, adul­terie, and iniquity? In the Chapter Bakara, it is writ­tē also, That the wiues of men are as it were the seed-fields of the men, and euery man doth sow his wife 71 as pleaseth him best. Moreouer he saith, That he is lu­stie, and is as strong for carnall copulation, as 40 men are. Item, that it is not lawfull for a woman after her separation and diuorce, the third time to come vnto her husband againe, except first she haue lien with a­nother man once. Now this is a thing more vile then may be spoken: although we do obserue it, like as o­ther precepts of our Prophet. Now these being filthy and shamefull, how do they beseeme our law, which was giuen by God? Therefore I do demand an an­swer of thee; tell me therefore thine opinion concer­ning these matters: for I will heare thee very gladly.

I do not loue to speake of this matter: but seeing that I promised thee an answer, I will answer thee according to my skill. I do thinke that the first Musslemans did not preach our law to any other 72 people, by reason of these vnconuenient things writ­ten in it.

Nay I say, that for this cause they inhibi­ted the translation of the Alkoran into any other [Page] language, that it might not be vnderstood of others: for then euery Christian or Iew would say, that our Prophet did forge this law, for that he did lie with his maid, and with another mans wife. Now this doth not become a Prophet, & one beloued of God: for God doth not loue leachers, and adulterous people.

I told thee before, That the spirituall life is that which is agreeable to the will of God: for that sensitiue life is not perfect, which doth hinder the di­uine and spirituall contemplation.

Now seeing we haue yet a long way to go: and that the time doth serue well for our conference, I would faine aske thee one other question, which doth now come to my mind, and is worth the vn­derstanding.

Say on: for I see thee to be of a noble spirit, and one desirous to honour our law, of which I am very glad.

Our Prophet in his Alkoran, in the Chapter of Diuels, doth say, that the diuels shall be partakers of his law, and many of the diuels shall be saued, by meanes of his law. Now we do know that by reason of their frowardnesse and malice, they are fallen into all sinnes. Moreouer also we know, That God which is good, is also the cause of all perfection, the foun­taine and true cause of all perfection, and of all good things. How then can any part of the diuels agree 74 with him; seeing they are wicked, and the law of God is righteous and good?

Without doubt to the euil ones there agree­eth nothing but that which is euill: and therefore no [Page] man can answer easily to this thy obiection. For the diuels are wicked and peruerse, and so wil be alwaies. Item, the difference betweene a sinfull man, and the diuels is, that a man may repent and returne againe vnto Gods protection: but the diuels, which ar [...] spi­rits, do neuer alter their mind, neither can they re­pent, and so be forgiuen: Therefore they alwaies re­maine in their wickednesse and perdition, and so for euer shall be accursed, and estranged from the mercy of God, and shall for euer remaine as euer they haue 75 beene and now are, in Gehenna.

For this cause our Prophet commandeth, that euery man before prayer, doe vse the ceremony of washing and cleansing for remission of sins, and blotting out of his iniquity, whether it be great or small. And where there is no water, it may be done with the rubbing on of dust or ashes.

O my good sonne, do not say that this thing is the cause of remission & doing away of sinne. For forgiuenesse of sinnes in very deed is this: May not Chri­stians be asha­med to be taught of a Turke? The sinner must first of all see that in the heart there be an earnest repentance for that sinne that he hath com­mitted against the Lord. Then by good workes hee must satisfy the iudgement of God and his iustice. 76 Thirdly he must restore againe vnto his brother if he haue taken ought from him, videl [...] from a musleman; whether it be by stripes, or by robbery, or by rapine. And in deed thy washings, and cleansings, and anoin­tings do no whit at all profite him.

But in mine opinion, our Prophet doth not command in any place this restitution of other mens goods taken away, as thou affirmest: But that we must [Page] Fast, Giue almes, Pray, Cloth the poore, and Defend the prisoners from the hand of the wicked.

In deed Almes deeds are good, when they are giuen out of our owne goods & our owne stocke: neither is that almes allowable which is giuē out of the goods of another: for God and iustice haue thus de­creed. Therefore how may we do according to the sentence of the law which saith, That we must giue of all whatsoeuer we do possesse in goods, one fifth part for an almes to God almighty, and to our Pro­phet.?

I say that God doth not loue any part of ill gotten goods, or those that are accursed: Therefore it is not lawfull for vs to take the goods of another; and he that shall do so hurteth himselfe.

Thou carest not much whether thou spea­kest against, or for others: For euery one of the Mus­slemans doth allow riches and goods gotten by ra­pine, or any other way worse then this.

For this cause I do doubt greatly how they may be saued from hell fire.

Tell me for Gods sake, (seeing thou hast spoken of the sauing from hell fire) because our Pro­phet saith in the Chapter Amran, that it is not possi­ble to be saued, but by his law: and in the Chapter Albacara, he sayth, That the Iewes and the Christians shall be saued; how these do agree?

There is in truth a manifest opposition and repugnancy betweene these two speeches.

Seeing that the Christians and Iewes shall be saued, wherefore doth our Prophet command, those that do not beleeue his law should be slaine? [Page] or that they should pay tribute and poll-money?

This also is contrary to his owne saying: For in the Chapter Albacara he writeth, that, In the law of God there is no oppression.

And out of these sayings, in which there is such contradictions, there can no answer be made to my demands.

Where is there not some contradiction? As in that Assora, where he writeth, that the disciples of Christ did say to him, that they were Mohammeds followers, he writeth also, that God said to Mohā. that he was the first that wrote the Alkoran. Now if this be true, then that cannot which followeth; vi­delicet, That the disciples of Christ did not follow Mohammed. For the Disciples of Christ were be­fore Mohammed 600 yeares. Therefore this alle­gation is false. For they did not follow the Alkoran: because it was not written at that time.

And I also do affirme, that in this there is not onely a contradiction, but a meere falshood, opposed to the truth it selfe, and all histories.

Therefore it were very good and expedient that the Musslemans should reade all old writers; to wit, the Gospell, the Law, & the Psalmes, for the mani­festation of the truth. For our Proph. doth cōmend, as is said before, the bookes of Moses, which are most methodically written from the creation of the world: and the Gospell, which is named of our Pro. the raies of the spirits and prophecy of Almighty God. See­ing that our Prophet doth commend these bookes, therfore he sheweth that he also did read these books.

I do not confesse so much. For he did not [Page] know any other, but the Arabicke tongue onely: yet by an interpretour he heard that which is conteined in the books of the Iewes and Christians.

If they were not learned and vpright men, it is to be doubted whether they haue in those things, by reason of their ignorance, spoken the truth, or haue not altered the words, and so now they are not as they were: and therfore by reason of their peruersenesse, they spake contradictions.

It may be that both the one and the other are false. But by reasō of our faith, we must be groun­ded in the truth, and giue our selues to the reading of those bookes: For this may be a meanes to expound our law; and we may learne by these bookes how 81 to answer our doubts, of the which we as yet are ig­norant.

Now this on our part, is a foule shame: for we being forbiddē to take delight in any thing wher­in there are found any fables, do become also igno­rant of those things which might turne to the saluati­on of our soules, which we ought especially to know.

And therefore euery learned man ought to giue his minde with all earnestnesse to study, and to forsake vulgar opinions. For to morrow or straight after to morrow we shall dy: and then what gaine haue we made, if we haue not learned the truth, and to do according to the approbation of the will of the almighty and blessed God?

I am desirous to study, that I may learne to do as thou sayst: but mine vnderstanding doth not 82 rest & rely on parables, things not to be vnderstood, or vpon old stories. For in these things my soule fin­deth [Page] no profite nor contentment. And indeed I loue & desire that knowledge that is profitable vnto faith and religion, and dependeth vpon the mysteries of almighty God: And I desire to reade that which is confirmed by great miracles.

Now in the law of our prophet it is not writ­ten that any thing was confirmed by miracles: For he himselfe doth confesse, that God did not giue him the gift of miracles: but the knowledge and skill of warre onely.

For miracles are indeede a manifest note of a Prophet, and of prophecy: and of the preachers of the will of God almighty, which loueth goodnes, & commandeth men to loue one another. But war, by which the world is oppressed & killed, and men are at great variance and strife, it is the instrument of Satan 83 which is the enemy of goodnes; and is the cause of all euill and troubles.

And indeed our Prophet did not worke any miracles: But the workes of God toward Moham­med were miraculous.

What were they?

The comming of the Angell vnto his gate, was a great miracle: Item, the conference also of Al­barak with him; Item, that in one moment and the twinkling of an eie he went that iourney, to wit, from Mecha vnto Ierusalem; where he found all the Prophets which long since were at rest: where our Prophet did call vpon them, and pray for them. Item, his visiō of the Stayres from the earth vnto hea­uen. Item, his going vp with the Angel vnto heauen, euen to the throne of God, and from thence to God [Page] himself, of whō he receiued great fauours, as he saith.

Seeing that thou callest these things, miracles; answer me to this one other question of mine, which may be demanded of any skilfull and vnderstanding man, which is this; Our Prophet saith, All that before is spoken of, was done in one night, and yet neither his wife nor his maide did see Gabriel. Moreouer he saith also, That the Prophets which came, were the dead Prophets: Neither doth he say, that some of them were liuing. Wherefore if one should now say, That none of all these things were true; but were fai­ned by him, that men might beleeue him, & his pro­phecy; what shalbe for an answer vnto this? For we haue no witnesses nor confirmation from the liuing; but he onely doth speake, and record, and also write so of him selfe.

He that beleeueth not these things, doth not likewise beleeue that he was absolued by God, con­cerning his oath that he made vnto his wife: because he saith, Gabriel and Rachael did onely testifie this; and it is also vnknowne. For he saith, This is solitary, and no man euer saw it; neither can we aske of any of them, whether this be true or false.

This also is necessary and worthy to be vnder­stood & considered of, how hee describeth the orbes from the beginning of the sphere vnto the end of the same: where he sayth, The first spheare is made of pure siluer: and the Starres are hanged vpon the first spheare by chaines made of brasse: The second spheare of pure gold: The third of precious stones or 86 pearles: The fourth, of a Smaragd: The fifth, of pearles: The sixth, of Alahal. Now all this is confu­ted [Page] by the Astronomers, and Philosophers: for Gold, Siluer, and Gemmes, or pretious Stones, are thicke bo­dies, and our eyes do not see through them, per mo­dum transparentiae: that is, it is not possible that our sight should passe through them, from one to ano­ther. And this is apparent: For the body of the Sun is in the fourth spheare, and yet it enlighteneth all the world: And Mercury is in the second; Venus in the third: Mars, in the fifth: Iupiter, in the sixth: Saturne in the seuenth: The Starres in the eight; which by reason that they go into certaine clouds they are oft­times not seene of vs; as the Sun also, whē the Moone falleth betwen it & vs. Now if our Prophet were true in this saying of his; that is, if the spheares were of 87 Gold, and siluer, & Gemmes; those things could not be seene of vs. But we do see the Starres, the Sunne, the Moone, and the rest of the Planets: and there­fore, as we haue said, this is false, and he is not true in his word. And so may it be said of his communi­cation with the Angell: of his ascension into heauen, and other falshoods of his. For all this fell out in one night, and that without testimony of any witnesse a­liue.

He that will thus go on by way of solid de­monstration, will deny also the aides, the cogitations, & suggestiōs, which God gaue to him in that night, as he saith.

This also is solid in mine opinion. For it is denied of euery man generally, to wit, that God did touch him with his hand, and did make him cold, as our Prophet doth write.

Why is this denied? 88

[Page]

Because that euery one doth know, that God is a simple essence, not hauing any body: yet he saith, That God did touch his hand; attributing to God an hand, and other members, and affirming that God hath a body, attributing to him also coldnesse. Also, he saith, That he hath quality and quantity: and he attributeth to God quality which is annexed to quā ­tity: which notwithstanding God is free from, and it is absurd to say otherwise: For that were a great scandall and heresie; nay it were Atheisme.

I do see that our conference goeth beyond our ground, and therefore it shall be better to make an end, & leaue this argument for this time, and con­ferre of some other matter.

Yet of this oft times we ought to conferre, for knowledge of the truth, and to be able to distin­guish 89 truth from falshood: that a man may be made good, and not bad. And if we do not thus, we shall walk without knowledge like blinde men and fooles: and we shall leade our life in this world, as beasts and vnreasonable creatures do. Now this were shameful, and the way vnto the destruction of the soule.

I do desire by all meanes, that we leaue this communication, speech, conference, or arguments, vntill another time and place. For I do study the Al­koran and other bookes seriously and diligently, and I finde many absurd things, without sence, and also such as are not confirmed by miracles: Yea there are innumerable and infinite such things as these in the Alkoran and in our law, which are repugnant & con­trary one to another, and are opposite to all Philoso­phers and Astronomers; and much also which hath [Page] no ground, or proofe from demonstration; nor yet 90 is confirmed by manifest miracles from God: and therefore let our conference end at this place: seeing that I see the pilgrimes do stay, and dispose of their tents and luggage where they meane to rest them­selues: Let vs also do as they do; and let vs be neere one another here; and to morrow, by Gods grace, we shall haue time to conferre againe of this matter: and then let vs speake of such things as may also concerne vs to know for our saluation.

When we haue a purpose to conferre of things which are the fountaine of profite, and also necessa­ry vnto our saluation; I beseech thee, let vs go alwaies together: but for this time let vs rest, in the name of God, and to morrow if God Almighty say, Amen [...] we will meet, and confere together.

The third Dialogue.

BY our conference had on these two last dayes iourneyes I per­ceiue apparentlie, that our vn­derstanding is like vnto a field or stony ground, which when it is well tilled, doth thrust out & bring forth fine flowers and pleasant fruites: but whē it lieth waste, there grow [...]th in that land & field nought but weeds, bushes, and euill plants, good for nothing.

This similitude is good: but tell me what thou meanest by the Flowers, and Frui [...]es of the vn­derstanding? And what thou meanest by Plants good for nothing?

By Flowers I do giue to vnderstand, euill thoughts and cogitations: By Fruites, good workes, which ar [...] perfect, and are done of good men, and such as are true beleeuers: By Bushes are vnderstood 92 euill cogitations which are conceiued against vs, and hurt our good name. Lastly, by vnprofitable we [...]ds, are vnderstood bad deeds, which do grow out of the peruerse heart of man, which is like vnto a stony field, that is vntilled, and neuer cometh neare vnto perfec­tion.

And I in truth do vnderstand that our confe­rence hath beene like a text expounding out of our [Page] law, many subtle things; as also out of other bookes commended and allowed by our Prophet.

And by this meanes I do know my selfe, out of thy conference aforesaid: for I haue before this heard that our vnderstandings are perfected by the considerations of the subtleties of the law, which do driue out vaine & euill thoughts, which do not worke any good worke.

Because I see thou takest pleasure in these con­ferences; 93 and that thine vnderstanding is enlightned with these [...]ine speculations, I do loue alwaies to con­ferre with thee: For I am delighted and very much pleased with the study of good bookes, and the specu­lation of spirituall thing: I delight also aboue measure in thy spirituall fruite, and thou contentest me well.

I would to God I might heare thee continu­ally, that I might remaine in thy seruice and presence alway, for the increase of learning & knowledge. For it doth also appeare that thou art good for all things, and louest learning.

That we should be alwaies together, it is impos­sible, seeing that to morrow we must part, for all our care: therefore if it please God, in these speciall points we will rest content But it is against my wil. For this thy loue to comprehend all briefly cannot be found in all men. For euery man forgetteth himselfe, and 94 his minde also inclineth vnto the loue of this transi­tory world and delights of the same, (& reuiueth not according to the conceipts of the soule,) the lusts of which do spoile the body, and pollute the soule; and, in a word, do kill the soule and body too.

And first of all, which of vs is there that doth [Page] thinke any thing els, but hurtfull pleasures and world­ly glory, which do passe away, as the clouds and sha­dow do passe? For indeed there is not any man that doth glory in spirituall and heauenly pleasures; and as for life eternall, and the true life of the soule, no man considereth it any whit.

For Almightie Gods sake let vs call to euery man of the world to do some of these things, that he may enlighten their minds and hearts, that they may 95 know errour and sin, in which they do persist; & that they may rise from worldly care, and staine of iniqui­ties, in which they stand euen vp to the necke; that they may desire with all earnestnesse, and true vnder­standing, to conceiue the counsails of God, which they shall learne in his holy law.

See: euery good thought, true desire, and good fruite, doth grow out of the knowledge of the holy law.

Without doubt, whosoeuer doth not know the law, they are blind in the light of vnderstanding, as he that is blind in the bodily eie doth alwaies stumble in the way, and of himselfe at all times doth fall into perdition.

It is manifest therefore in what danger all neg­ligent 96 men are, and such as are ignorant of the law of God. Now these are many: For they do not sticke but vnto the pride of the world, to worldly honour, and all manner of riches: as if in this world we should alwaies haue our being and abiding; when as we do see that this day we liue, and to morrow we are dead. O monstrous folly, misery, and great mischiefe!

Vpon this I also do confesse, that there is [Page] found in my heart alway some heauinesse, deiection, and great melancholy: These are the errors of our times. For in euery place there are men clothed so proudly, and scornfully; also, euery man studieth onely how to get riches and money: la­boreth to get wiues, seruants, slaues, and other world­ly commodities which are transitory: and very few are found, which do delight in reading the bookes of 97 the holy law, in which there are euerlasting treasures, and perpetuall riches both of our soules, and eternall life.

I do confesse, that many do excuse themselues, saying, That our law is metaphoricall; and therefore it ought not to be read.

This indeed is very true; That in it there are metaphors and subtleties: yet our Prophet doth not say; That it is not to be read; neither doth he forbid vs to know it. But [...]e addeth this, That it is without any profite. Yet in the title Ionan, he sayth, If you haue any doubt of them, I haue giuē them vnto you; turn ye the solution therfore of your metaphors vnto the doctours and expositours, that is, to those which haue read the bookes before you, and haue knowne the bookes of the Iewes and Christians, which haue beene giuen to them before vs; as the bookes of Mo­ses, and the Gospell. For these bookes are commen­ded by our Prophet in many places; and that his commendation is true: For they are in very deed ho­ly bookes.

But our learned men do say, that these books were changed: and therefore we, as I do vnderstand, do not seeke after those bookes.

Yesterday also thou toldst me as much. This [Page] is a foule fault of our men, the Musslemans I meane; nay I dare boldly affirme it to be a grosse errour, see­ing that all the sacred bookes haue bene found from the beginning in all languages, and in all kingdomes, and seeing that euery one of them do agree one with another. Moreouer, it is incredible. For our Prophet doth say, that we ought to receiue the expo­sition and declaration of those ancient bookes; And, that they were changed at that time, or at this time, 99 our Prophet doth not say any such word: and there­fore thou oughtest not to say so. For it is far from the opinion of men of vnderstanding: and beside that, it is a grosse errour.

What is it then that thou wouldest say? and what is it that our Musslemans should learne?

I would say; Because these bookes are giuen of God, as it is manifest to all the world: and that for more then 600 yeares before our Prophet was borne; this our Musslemans ought to beleeue, That those books were true; & that they do cōtaine true things; and that they were as they are, agreeing in all langua­ges: For one and the same truth is in all their mouthes alwaies.

Thou saist true, and I do verilie beleeue so.

And indeed this ought euery man to beleeue, that is, we & all Musslemans whatsoeuer. And with­out doubt we are bound to reade all bookes which our Prophet hath giuen commendations of. For out of all doubt, when our Musslemans do vnderstand our law as they ought to vnderstand it, they will or­der their conuersation and liues vnto that end and purpose in which our soules may finde true and eter­nall rest.

[Page]

Truly it were a good thing, that all the world with one mouth would beleeue and confesse, That as God is one, so also the way whereby we come vnto him is one; not many, as men do say and determine.

Men are not the cause and authours of this difference and errour. 101

Who was the cause of it then?

The Diuell, who is the authour and cause of all lies: and he which followeth this diuersity, doth walke in the paths of the Diuel, which as an opposed aduersary to God Almighty, doth labour to seduce men from the true way, that a man may not come vnto the truth, from this destruction and terrible misleading, which at last will cast our soules into Ge­henna.

Tell me, I adiure thee by God Almighty, The ancient Prophets, which were from the beginning vnto the time of our Prophet, what? did they agree between themselues? For I haue heard that they were not all of them in one time: but that some of them were in one age, and some in another age. And some 102 of them speake of one thing, and some of another.

Herehence also it appeareth plainely, that they were in very deed the Prophets of God, & were enlightened and taught of him. For all their speeches tend vnto one and the same end and purpose, that is, to remoue men from the seruice of idoles, which had their seruice after the manner and forme of the very true God: And all of them with one cōsent preached and declared the coming of Iesus, that is, of Christ, which was borne of Mary the Virgine; and of the ho­ly Ghost, as our Prophet doth also plainely affirme.

[Page]

Yesterday also thou saidst, That from the birth of Iesus Christ, vnto the birth of our Prophet there passed 600 yeares.

So it is, and in that time the religion of Christ (by the misery and affliction of the Martyrs giuing testimony) passed into all the world: and the glorious Gospell was also written in all languages.

I would faine vnderstand whether that in the interim of that sixe hundred yeares betweene Christ and our Prophet, there were sent any other Prophet from Almighty God vnto the world?

Know thou, that all the Prophets were sent from God at sundry times; and haue preached and taught the very true God; and haue declared that Christ was the end & the accomplishment of the old Law; and the beginning of the new Law. And the last of these Prophets was Iohn the son of Zachary, which did not onely foretel of Christ; but did preach of his birth, & did point him out with his finger, whē he saith, This is the Lambe of God. And when all the 104 sayings of the Prophets, of the coming of Christ the holy one, which was the argumēt of their preaching, were ended; not so much as one more was sent from Almighty God, in these 600 yeares: yea neither will he send any other Prophet: for there was no need of any other Prophet, when Iesus was come, which was the Prophet of Prophets, and their Lord: And seeing that in him all the sayings of the Prophets are accomplished, there shall come onely in the last time, Antichrist, which is named Dagial: And after him shall come Iesus in his glorie to iudge the quicke and the dead: and to giue the faithful and good ones, [Page] Paradise: and to the froward and sinners, grieuous torments in Hell.

This good consent amongst the Prophets, and this end also, which is the argument handled by 105 them all, to wit, of the coming of Christ, is a matter worth the consideration, and I do confesse that I neuer heard of it before, nor vnderstood it.

He that is ignorant of these things doth walke on in darknesse.

I neuer heard that Iohn the sonne of Zacha­rias was the last of the Prophets, & the seale of thē all: and therefore I haue wondered how he, amongst vs Musslemans, became so famous, and his name so ho­norable: and wherefore the day of his natiuity, in all parts of the world, is kept holy.

What wonder is it, when thou hearest of his excellency which he had aboue all the Prophets? to wit, that he did behold and point out also to others who it is, which of all the holy Fathers and Prophets was desired to be seene, to wit, Isay, or Iesus Christ that was foretold of all the Proph. & was agreed vpō.

Seeing then that he, to wit, Iohn, was the sea­ler 106 vp of the sayings of the Prophets: and that all their sayings were fulfilled by reason of the coming of Christ, there was no need that there should be any thing spoken by any new Prophet: for there [...]emai­neth not any thing that should be foretold by him.

Thou art right, and thou art well instructed: and the bookes are plaine, and whosoeuer will reade diligently, shall find it so, and he shall know the truth, and there shall remaine no other scruple to him.

And these are those things which euery one [Page] ought to know: & the books which do speak of these things ought to be read of all men; This is that which may not be spoken of those books in which there are iesting speeches, and worldly vanities, altogether vn­profitable.

Truth it is, this is a great madnesse of this 107 world: for we know that our Prophet did commend all the Mosaicall books, & the books of the Prophets, and beyond all compasse the glorious Gospell; And he saith, These bookes are as it were an exposition of the figures of our law: & yet we do contemne them, & do not translate, nor turne them into our language, that we might view them.

And it behooueth euery one of vs to consider, seeing that our Prophet saith, That they are sacred & good bookes, and were giuen of God, whether he say true or no. If he say true, then we ought to reade them for profite sake. If he do not speake truth, where­fore do we say, that our Prophet is true? But without doubt the history is so. For the world from 600 yeares before our Prophet, as we haue sayd, did know it: and that before these bookes. And the verity and truth of them, doth testifie that they are holy & good.

Also, I do affirme, that our Prophet in the Chapter Almaida doth say these words, That the stu­dy of this booke is altogether vaine, if withal the Gos­pell & the law be not obserued: Therfore the Mussle­mans must vnderstand the intention of this booke.

Thou spakest in our last conference yester­day of this place; which is indeede worthy of consi­deration: for the words are cleare and plaine.

And because I do see that it is a necessary place [Page] therefore if the words bee so perspicuous, I say to thee againe the second time in sober sadnes, that thou and all such as thou art ought to obserue it well, and that for good reason: for our Prophet speaketh these words, and yet we do not translate them.

This was for our disobedience. And for our other sins, I do beleeue that our Prophet spake these words vnto his sectaries, that is, You shal be separated 109 farre off from me vnto the seuenty three generation, and one onely shall enter into Paradise: the rest all of them shall go to the fire.

But I say to thee, that in the chapter Mary he saith thus, That all the Musslemans shall go into the fire: and of this I am afraid: For in asmuch as he saith, All, no one is excepted: and therefore it be­hooueth vs in this our life, to consider our estates, and to labour with great endeuour, that we do not go in­to Gehenna, and eternall perdition.

We according to the saying of our Prophet are more abhominable then the Iews and Christians: for in the Chapter Baccara he saith, That the Iewes & Christians shall go into Paradise.

And in the Chapter Abraham he saith, That not any one shall go into Paradise, but by the meanes of our law. Now this is contrary to the former; and 110 truth is not figured out by contrarieties; but in the Alkoran, in many places, you shall finde contrarieties: And these contrarieties amongst vs are the cause of o­ther brutish opinions. Now this doth not fall out to those that reade the glorious Gospell, and do informe themselues after the precepts thereof. But it is mani­fest, that good Christians, when they are found in [Page] any tentation & misery of this world, at that instant their soules are replenished with the loue of God, and in the sense thereof they do exceedingly reioyce.

This reioycing and this power, which is in the soules of the Christians, in the midst of miserie and tentatiō in this world, is demonstrated from that glo­ry and the blessednesse, which God will giue them for euer, that is, Paradise.

Our Prophet in the Chapter Almaïda spea­keth 111 altogether cōtrary to that which thou now spea­kest. For he in that Chapter doth shew, that the Iews and Christians shall not be the sonnes of God, nor a­ny of his friends. And this is manifest by the mise­ry and oppression in this world which God doth lay vpon them for their sinnes.

Now in mine opinion, from hence it cannot be argued, that they are not the friends of God: But what is thine opinion of this matter?

With me that is firme and good that is recei­ued amongst the learned in generall, and of the wise­men of the world; that is, That the Iewes were afflic­ted of God, and were dispersed, as it doth appeare plainely, 1000 yeares ago and more; and that they are without a Temple, without sacrifice, and without a Priest, for this sin of apostasie onely, which they did do against Christ, which was the Word of the euerla­sting 112 God, and his eternall Sonne, as I shewed thee yesterday.

What dost thou say then of the afflictions of the Christians, which God layeth vpon them?

This is not like vnto the misery of the Iewes: for in all that religion, the Christians haue a Priest, & [Page] Churches: and they do sacrifice their sacrifices, praise God, and his glorious name, not onely in the place where they haue the sole command; but also in Constantinople, Egypt, Arabia, in Ada the new, That is, the Ilands. in the Sea, and in all quarters of the world. Therefore we ought to say, that their miseries do testifie the loue of God toward them, as Salomon the wise doth affirme, when he sayth, That a good father doth cha­stise his sonne whom he loueth, very much: and Da­uid the Prophet saith, The good through many mise­ries & great tentations shall enter into the kingdome 113 of God: And moreouer, That the good are tried of God, as the gold which is tried in the fire. And there­fore I, when I do see man in felicity in this world; and according to his desire to enioy worldly matters, without any crosse at all, euen at that instant I am a­fraid of him. For Dauid the Prophet also saith, I haue seene the wicked exalted and magnified; and I went out, and he was gone; and I asked after him, and he was not to be found, and there was no signe of his place in the which he had bene. Therefore the say­ings which are in the Chapter Almaïda, cannot sig­nifie, that the Christians, by reason of the misery which at some time they do suffer, are not the sonnes nor friends of God: but it doth teach the contrary; & that by the testimony of Dauids owne words: nei­ther 114 is there any thing else that I am able to say to it.

I haue heard thee say, A Iewish fa­ble. that Salomon was ex­ceeding wise: whether was that he that is mentioned in the chapter Amemela, that had a great army of An­gels, of men, and other liuing creatures: and when Salomō found the Ants innumerable as the running [Page] waters, he commanded one of them to go into their holes: and after that it spake with Solomon, and laughed also, as it is recorded in that Chapter.

I do know that this is recited in that Chapter; but I do not know what I may be able to say vnto thine answer: for I do not vnderstand the meaning of it.

I do wonder greatly at thee, why thou canst not vnderstand this thing, seeing that it is so plaine.

He that will take this as a parable, to him it may be plaine.

How can it be vnderstood as a parable, it not being in it owne nature true? For neither had Solo­mon any such army, neither did the Ant so miracu­lously speake or laugh.

I do maruell at thee: for thou doest shew thy selfe to haue little vnderstanding; in that thou doest not know that Solomon, which was the son of Dauid, did neuer leuy any armies, neither of Angels, nor of beasts: but he was very learned, and of great wisedome, as it appeareth by his speeches and books. and that it was he which built the Temple at Ierusa­lem. For he was so commanded by God in the same glorious Ierusalem: but there is no record made by him of any army, or of such an Ant, or of any such mi­racle with the Ant; or of the beasts.

Therefore it may also well be said, this histo­ry 116 is not [...]ound, which is recorded in the Alkoran. And this was one of those wormes which did mani­fest the death of Solomon to the Diuels.

In it also, as I thinke, is recorded many things like that of the Ant: for in it is recorded, that Solomō [Page] died, and yet remained leaning vpon his staffe: A Talmudica [...] fable. and the Diuels which did minister vnto him, were igno­rant of his death, vntill one of the worms did eate in two his staff; which being broken Solomon fel down: and at that very instant time they vnderstood of the state of his death: And they at that selfe same time did lift vp their heads, and were aduersaries and op­posite to mankinde. Now all this is not true, neither likely to be true; neither do I know for what reason our Prophet hath written it. For this parable is no way profitable to vs.

That booke, where the law and the comman­dements 117 of God are written, ought to record nothing but such things as are high and diuine, because of the prerogatiue and excellency of our vnderstanding, & apprehension in the speculation of heauenly things, and vnderstanding of the maiestie of God. And by reason of these friuolous things and parables which are read in this Azoara, and in that other Azoara, in very deed they do not beseeme, neither are they wor­thy of that booke, seeing that none of them are any way profitable vnto vs.

I told thee, that our Prophet doth prefer the vnderstanding of his booke and his law vnto the holy books of the old Testament, and of the glorious Gos­pel, as the true cōmentary. For he also hath taught, that the books of Moses, and the bookes of the Prophets, and Gospell, do containe the high and profitable sen­ses conuenient for all. Now I do not know why we 118 do not translate them: seeing that it is a great danger to our soules.

I also do acknowledge that the reading of [Page] these bookes are profitable and conuenient: seeing that our Prophet doth much commend them: but yet I am not content, neither doth it seeme to me an equall thing, that wee Musslemans, with all our iniquities which do spring out of vs, should be­leeue that we shall enter into Paradise, onely for the confession of the vnity of God; and that his Prophet Mohammed is of God. For the confession of the vni­ty is not denied of the Iews, no nor of the Christians. Therefore this confession is without any particular reward to vs. The confession also, That Mohammed is his Prophet and his friend, what profite haue we by this confession?

For the seruice of God & his praise, as is meet, we 119 ought to stirre vp our vnderstandings vnto things of the deepest conceipt. Also we ought before all things to know, seeing that God, which is iust and pure, and the fountaine of goodnes and perfection, hath crea­ted man after his own image, and likenesse according to himselfe; that is, hath made him most perfect, and without sinne: that therefore after the disobedience of the Man, and the fault which he had committed, of necessity euery man must worke iniquity, vntill he be restored vnto his former iustice and antecedent perfection; the obtaining of which is impossible, but by the helpe of God, and knowledge of his glori­rious law, and by the doing of good workes, accor­ding to the determination of his glorious will and pleasure.

This deepe speculation is not like that mira­cle of the Ant. And I do beleeue that our Prophet did not write that Chapter wherein is recorded so [Page] lofty matters as those precedent things, and the Gos­pel are. And because he saith, Those books were giuen 120 by God, he signifieth, that those bookes do containe all perfections and goodnesse. Therefore we ought to confesse, that those bookes appertaine vnto the salua­tion of all the world, & of euery seuerall person in the same.

Yea, & I do confesse, that from all eternity those bookes were holy: and therefore I do know that all the Musslemans do offend: and I do pity the case in which I do see they are: because I do see that we might finde those bookes, and reade them, and yet we do not. As it is said, we do leaue the white bread, & that which is most pleasing: & we do eat brown bread which is no way so pleasing in tast, nor so good for the body. And this difference there is betwene words of verity and truth, and falshood: For this is pleasant vnto the vnderstanding, and profitable to the soule: and that is no way pleasing, but hurtfull: for it is a 121 vaine thing, and it hath no commodity in it, because it is false. But let this suffice: for I see the the rest do take downe their tents. I pray God that this conside­ration may enter into the heart of all and euery Mus­sleman: that euery one of vs may consider and di­rect his mind vnto such matters as do appertaine vn­to his soule, as vnto the true end, I meane the saluati­on of our soules: for all things of this world are fraile and vnconstant. Now those things which according to their essence are transitory, do not deserue but to be passed ouer, and not to be had in any regard a­mongst men.

The blessed God giue the light of his aide [Page] to euery one, that we may ceasse from sin and iniqui­ty, 122 that we may follow the truth, and his holy com­mandements; and especially for this our conference, I wil abide with this loue, in the knowledge of God. For this conference was very beneficiall vnto me, by thy meanes, and I shall thinke alwaies of this thy kind­nes, and I shall desire of God that he will reward thee for it.

This is as much as I desire.

Thus endeth (by the helpe of God, the king of aid) the conference of the two aforesaid Doctours, that is to say, of Sheich Sinon, and Doctour Ahmed.