RIght glad am I to see you Desiderius: but who ever would haue thought to haue met you here in these partes? Some great & weigh­ty cause doubtlesse hath occasioned you to come hither. But I praye tell me, how doe all our friends in England, and what good newes bring you from thence?

It may be thought a wonder to see your selfe here (my much beloved Miles ▪) for it was reported that you were at Rome, that you were the Popes scholer, &c. But I am glad to see you so farre from his citie of seven hills, where his seat is. And that putts mee in better hope concerning you then o­thers have.

For certayn Desiderius, I am and al­waies have been, furder off and more opposi [...]e to the Popes religion and learning, then now distant frō his citie and seate, where I never [Page] yet came not purpose to come, vnlesse I should happen to long for fyre and fagot.

That increaseth my hope, & to bring like joy unto your selfe, know this, that our friends in England are generally well, as I see you are, whereof I am not a litle joyeux.

And how goes it with religion? Are there not good hopes for reformation?

The hopes that way, are as fewe & small as ever they were; Howbeit that which you call reformation, others doe count defor­mation.

But how then is it with the Prelats, Are they so proud; or doe they dominiere & beare like sway as heretofore?

Yea doubtlesse. For there are none that are put down more then the Puritans (as they are called,) nor none that rise up faster then the Prelates, as you call them.

Then in deed there can be no pre­sent hope, for Bishops and the abuses brought in by them, are a bane to the beawtie of true religion, and doe greatly hinder all sound and sincere walking therein.

Multitudes are otherwise minded then you are, and many wiser then I doe think them to be the very pillars of the Church, and chiefe upholders of true religion. And what should I then think of the matter?

Not as the multitude doe, for then [Page] you think erroneously. And if these be the pillars or propps of any Church, it must needs be the church of Antichrist. For wee finde no warrant in all the scriptures, that their offices, callings or administrations, haue any place, power or right in the Church of Christ, as shal plainly appeare hereafter. But where you seem to let your judgment rely upō the multitude, and to approve of that which wiser then your self doe justify; you are taught not to follow a multitude to doe evill, Exod. 23. And the di­vine proverbe sheweth, that it is as great an e­vil to justify the wicked as to condemne the innocent. But, as woe is pronounced to him that calls good evil; so likewise to him that cal leth evil good. Esa. 5.29. For your judgeing of matters in case of religion, you ought to look to the lawe and word of God, and not to the wisdome of man. For the wisdome of the wise men of this world is foolishnes with God, and the wisdome of God is foolishnes with them. The Philosophers and other wise men, could never by their worldly wisdome atteyne to the right knowledge of God & heavenly things. This apperteyneth to the foolish things of the world, which God hath chosen to confound the wise. As sayth the Apostle, 1 Cor. 1. Read the whole chapter at your leasure, for your better information. But I pray you how sayd you that it was with the Puritans?

I observe that there are none more detest [...]d mocked & troden down then are they, nor none more upholden then those that you so much dislike, even the Bishops. For they rise up hastily, & put the other down most hatefully.

It is then with the Bishops according to the old proverbe, evil weeds doe growe apace. And Mr. Tindall in the practise of Prelates, shewe [...]h to this eff [...]ct, That as the Ivie com­p [...]sseth the oake, and groweth up about it, till it is higher then he oake it self; so doth the Prelates with their Princes. Hereof wee haue seen lamentable experience in the papacie. For the Bishop of Rome hath gotten himself aloft, advauncing himself above the trees, as it is in Iothams parable, Iudg. 9.7. &c. that is, a­bove Princes, even Kings and Emperors, whō he makes his vassals and kissers of his feete. We [...]ad in [...]yst, of one of those Bishops, that [...] upon the Emperors neck; and having s [...]t on the crowne with his hand, hee stroke it off with his foote. To shewe that he had power to [...] up & call downe Kings at his pleasure. God grant that such presidents may be a war­ning for all Kings and Princes to keep downe such climers, while power is in their hand to restraine their unnaturall growth. But is it not to now, that the Arch Bishops grace is come to the Title of a Prince, and President in the [Page] Right honourable privie counsell? And are not also the inferiour Bishops invested with the stile of Barons and Peeres of the Realme? Which titles and authorities are in deed fit for Peeres and Magistrates in the common wealth, not for ministers of the Church, but is forbidden unto them in the sacred Scrip­tures. And yet such titles doe men give, and these Bishops presume to take notwithstāding. And that, not as they are imployed in civil af­faires; but, as they are ministers and spiritual men; and are therefore called spiritual Lordes, even as the others (truely honourable) are called the Lords temporall, and are so distin­guished one from another. The abuse ought to be much lam [...]nted and utterly abandoned. And these are of that broode which the learn­ed linguist Mr. Hugh Broughton usually call­eth the banned Bishops. But tell m [...] how doe they now behave themselves in their usurped authorities?

It may be answered, That that is not usurped which is given. But Princes doe give them their authoritie. Therefore they usurp it not.

If the Prince of princes hath not given it them but forbidden it, they are usurp­ers; & the donation of earthly princes cannot make them to be otherwise; seing it is unlaw­full for the one to give, & for the other to re­ceive [Page] such authorities and titles. But you an­swer not my demand, how they behave them­selves therein?

They imprison, put to silence, & degrade at their owne pleasure, and (to speak the trueth, they) stand more upon the obser­vation of their ovvne unholy ceremonies, then upon Gods most holy oracles. And all that refuse to bovv, they vvill bend; till they break the back of their conscience. So that I see no end of their evills, neither can I dive into their doings, for a suteable discoverie, vvithout much sorovve of heart.

When Iohn Baptist sent Disciples unto Iesus to ask him whether he vvas he that should come, or vvhether vve should look for another? Our Saviour ansvvered, Goe and tell Iohn, what thinges ye heare and see. The blinde re­ceive sigh [...] and the halt walk: the leapers are clean­sed, and the deafe heare. the dead are raysed up, and the poore receive the Gospell. Math 11.4 5.6 &c. Novv these being the vvorks that the true Christ should doe, & Iesus doeing them, Iohn knevv and taught his disciples to knovv, that that vvas in deed the very Christ promised. E­ven so those vvorks that you say the Bishops doe, being the vvorks of Antichrist; doe tell & reach that these Bishops are truely Antichristi­an. And the discoverie of their doings hath been sufficiently performed heretofore by [Page] sundry persons & in divers manners: by some merily, by some modestly, by some gravely, all soundly. Therefore take you no care for that service, neyther let any be dismayed for their loftynes & tyrannicall cariages. A lofty sayle with great vvindes vvill soone break dovvne a rotten mast. And the higher the Bishops climbe, the nearer they are to their fall, & the greater shall it be. Yea vvho can tell hovv soon the vvindes of Gods vvrath shall blovv upon them, against vvhich they shall not stand. The Axe of Gods vvorde is ready hastily to hevv them dovvn, did not humane authoritie hinder the stroke of it to support the Lordly­nes of these Prelates for a season. But vvhen the time is come vvhich the Highest hath set, humane authoritie shall no longer hinder, but help to further Gods vvork. As it vvas in the dayes of Cyrus King of Persia, vvhen the deli­v [...]rance of Gods people came so suddenly, as they vvere like those that dreame, ( Psal. 126.) which is, as if they reasoned in themselves, are vve delivered or doe vve but dream of delive­rance? The first Babylonians had their fail, and vvho need make doubt that these vvho are Babylonians spiritual and vvere typed out by the former shall tast of their cup? and vvhē they haue drunk, then may this race of An­christs clergie dolefully sing the dovvnfall of their offices and Bishopricks. For dovvne they [Page] must, mauger the Divil deviser and first foun [...]der of their functiō. ( Though Babel should moun [...] vp unto heaven, and though shee should defend he [...] strength from on high, yet from me shall her destroy­ers come, sayth the Lord. Ier. 51.53.)

I dare not be so severe to censure them in respect of their office, (which may be holy, though they are unholy,) but in respect of their harmfulnes in their office, which I cō [...]fess, is too too apparant and past all denial.

If a woulf should forbeare to ravine and cease to doe harme, yet is he a Wolfe still, and hath in him the same wolvish nature; and who then would trust him in a flock of sheep, or cōmit the guidance of them to his charge? Even so, if those Bishop; and false ministers should forbeare to doe harme, yet are they the same false ministers stil, being not sent of God, not sanct [...]fied unto his people, and therfore ought not to be trusted with the sheepe of Christ, not be a guide unto them, but to be thrust out, although for the time present they did no harme at all. Thus might they bothe please God in doeing his will, and put away from themselves all danger and dread which continually do compasse them whiles they are ledd by such guides. Yea the perill whereof is much greater then if they were sold to be un­der the conduct or cōmand of the chief Cap­taynes under their most mortal and manifest­ly [Page] knowne enemies. For such danger is but [...]mporal, but this eternall. That concerneth [...] the body onely, this the soule, and body [...]o. Take heed ther [...]fore what ministers you [...]ommit your self unto for the guide of your [...]e, lest whiles they should feed you with the [...]holesome milk of Gods word, they fill you with the poi [...]on of their ovvne or other mens [...]nventions. This is a true position that no mi­ [...]isters may stand in any Church of Christ that [...]re not Ministers of Christ, and haue their cal­ling and sending frō him mediately or imme­diately. And as the Apostle sayth, No man ta­ [...] this honour vnto himself, but he that is called of God as was Aaron, Heb. 5.4. But those B ^ps. have no such calling or sending, & so haue no lavv­ful right to administer in the church of Christ, or to be reteyned therein. Againe, Christs Church may be p [...]rfect & intyre, vvithout the forenamed Bi [...]hops or others of their brood; so may civil societies also; and heathen idola­trie likevvise: onely the Antichristian Syna­ [...] of Rome, and all others in her fashion, cannot be perfect and intire, but defective and lame without them. Therefore I vvish that all such offices vvere sent thither againe, or to the bot­tomeless pit from vvhence they came, out of the smoke, vvith that heap of Locusts, Rev. 9.2.3. where the note upon the English Bible approveth this that I say, for there it sheweth [Page] in direct words, that those Locusts are false t [...]chers, heretikes, and worldly subtile Prelates, [...] Monkes, Friers, Cardinals, Patriarkes, Archbishop [...] Bishops, Doctors, Bachelers, and Masters which fo [...]sake Christ, to mainteyne false doctrine. And tho [...] Lord God of hosts strong and mighty brin [...] it to passe that they may haue no more autho [...]ritie over thy people, then they ought to yeel [...] themselves unto.

You haue very fitly compare [...] them vnto wolves, for they devoure and mak [...] havock of the flock, so as the poore sheepe o [...] Christ, can hardly be suffered to feed in an [...] good pasture. And much is the mischief they doe in the land. In which respect I desire with my hart that England were quitt of them, fo [...] a full freedome from all their tyrannicall ju­risdiction, which as it is to some very hurtful; so is it unto me detestable and most hatefull. For lambs should not be lions, nor sheepe should not be wolves.

And I would we were quit of them not onely as they are harmfull, and havock-making creatures, but as they are false functi­ons and ministeries that God never instituted. For that was the ground wherupō Iosiah that godly King, put downe the Chemarims, or Priests of Baal, 2 King 23.5. And histories doe make mention of Flamings, & Archflamings, that were in our owne Land, before ever any [Page] Arch Bishop was there. And although they are not so hurtfull as are these Bishops, (save [...]ly that they led the people on in Pagan­ [...],) yet being false functions, downe went [...]ey likewise, as did the Chemarims & other [...]e functions of old. And the same doome for these now, who cannot chuse will they [...] they, but must taste of the same cup, vvhen [...]e time is come that justice shall take place a­ [...]inst the false functions of this later age, a­ [...]inst all the inventions of men, and false or­ [...]nances, in and about the worship of God, [...]d performance therof. For these are special [...]. But to say that false functions may be [...]ployed in true services of God, when the [...]ersons possessing them, doe cease the doing charme; then if the Divil himself should cease [...] forbeare to doe harme, that ground would [...]ead men to a love and liking of him, or lean­ [...]g to him. Wheras all men notwithstanding were bound to hold him at the swords pointe [...]s the great enemie of mankinde, whom ne­ [...]er any man ought eyther to trust, or to give over the combate against him, till they haue expulsed him. And even so for his Ministers. Lay this well to heart Desiderius, & look well to your reasoning, for I perceive we shall have a conference profitable to be printed, so as I adde unto it some other worthy things that I haue to shew unto you. And if I can conveni­ently [Page] get it done among these strangers, t [...] printed shall it be.

I assent unto it. And to proc [...] on in our discourse I tell you, that Bishops [...] spoken of in the holy scriptures which y [...] self doe professe to be the ground of all thi [...] in religion. Doth not Paul the Apostle bo [...] to Timothee and Titus speake of Bishops, a [...] shewes what they ought to be; & saluteth [...] Bishops & Deacons at Philippi in his Epis [...] to that Church? So that it seemes that [...] their office, but the abuse in their office oug [...] to be withstood and abolished. And why th [...] doe you condemne the office it selfe?

I condemne not, neither fin [...] fault with the name of a Bishop, nor yet wi [...] the office of a Bishop, in th'Apostles sense an [...] intendement. For his meanings is of such B [...]shops as ought to be over a particular church or congregation, not over many congregat [...]ons. And as the word Bishop, is derived fro [...] the Greek word which signifieth Overseer; so [...] Pastors, Teachers, and Governours over part [...]cular congregations are such Bishops. Whero [...] there may be many in one Church to feed [...] in the faith, and to governe it in holy order, [...] in the feare of God, according to his word [...] not as Lordes over their faith; but in all hum [...]litie and meeknes as ensamples to the flock, [...] Pet. 5. But that one Bishop should be over ma­ny [Page] churches, even over a [...] Province, or Diocese, and exercise domin [...] over them, as their Lord spiritual, and that with all rigour and tyranny, this is a changing of the holy ordinance of God to make their owne craftines to prosper, as it is in Dan. 8.25. [...]oncerning Antiochus Epiphanes. And by their grounds, there may aswell be a Bishop over all Christendome. And so came that un­ [...]oly father the Pope to be mounted up into [...]is chaire of preheminence, wherein he poi­ [...]oned all Christendome with his abomina­ [...]ons. Such dominion hath Christ forbidden to his Ministers. Mat. 20.25. &c. Luke 22.25. [...]6. But he alone is our Archbishop and Lord spiritual, who walketh in the middest of the 7. golden candlesticks, or churches. The others may we not acknowledge so to be, nor allowe them so to doe by any power frō him. But these are rather of and haue their power from the spirite that ruleth in the aire, and in the children of disobedience. And are not sent of God, except in his wrath for a scourge unto peoples and nations of the earth. The ecclesi­astical titles which they claim unto themselves are peculiar privileges to our Lord Iesus one­ly, and are to be given him to the glory of his name: but his glorie therein wil he not give to any other. Furthermore when such names and titles are given unto men, they are [Page] the names of blasphemie, Revel. 13.1. So th [...] it is the Arch and Lord Bishops that I disclai [...] and testify against, which have jurisdiction o [...]ver a Dioces, as a Diocesan Bishop, or ov [...] half a kingdome as a provincial Bishop, or o [...]ver a whole kingdome as primate: Fo [...] by like ground, there may be a Bishop ove [...] all Bishops and kingdomes in Christendome▪ Which yet were detestable before God, & to such men also, as are inlightned by his spirit▪ The man of sinne, and mysterie of iniquit [...] sprūg up by degrees til it came to that height and our Englih Prelates doe helpe to hold [...] up still: But God that condemneth it wil bring it downe. But I hope that some others bette [...] furnished with bookes, abilitie & leisure, the [...] I either am or can possibly be, in this pilgri­mage from my native country, will by this occasion both conferre the prophesies in the holy scriptures, and gather togeither a Cata­logue of writers as a cloude of witnesses, for further manifestatiō of the truth against these remnants of the Antichristian race, although very much is done that way already. For tou­ching the Ministerie of Arch and Lordbishops aforementioned, with other ministeries under them: That their offices were never appointed by Christ, but is a new ministerie devised by man, both in their office, entrance, admini­stration and maintenance, and ought not [Page] therefore to be continued; the scriptures haue she­wed such light as haue filled our land full of proofe [...] severall workes aswel of the people called Brow­ [...]ists, as of the forwarder sort of Ministers. And it is certaine that all such offices are of evill note, & of very bad esteem in all well reformed Churches in the world. Also the holy Martyrs and writers old and new haue condemned them. Mr Chad­derton of Emmanuel Colledge in Cambridge hath truely taught and confidently affirmed, in his Ser­mon on Rom. 12. That the Church (speaking of the Church of England) abhorreth and loatheth the things which are abounding in her; as namely Ach Bi­shops, Lord Bishops, Deanes, Arch Deacons, Chancel­lors, Commissaries, Officials, and all such as are rather mē ­bers and parts of the whore and strumpet of Rome, then of the pure virgine and spouse of the immaculate lambe. Ther­fore (saith hee) shee will have these (if they will needs bee of her body) to shewe that they be created of God, and uni­ted unto her by Christ her head. If they will needs be of the heavenly Ierusalem, let them shew that they came downe from heaven, and who gave them from thence. For the Apostles never knew them. Sion hath not heard of them. Ierusalem which is above will not acknowledge them. The watchmen (no doubt) being a sleepe, they haue crept into the citie of the Lord. But now they are espied, now the church complaineth of them, both because they haue no title nor in­terest in it as publike mēbers: As also because of the length of their unlawfull swords they keepe out the lawfull members of the body. Wee therefore which are the Lords remembrau- [Page] [...]ers must never s [...]ffer him to rest, till he hath expelled out of I [...]rusalem, wherin they haue no right to exercise [...] unlawful authoritie. Thus farre goeth hee [...]e [...]e verbatim. And it were endlesse to set downe wh [...] others haue writtē in this kinde agreing therewith

Wicl [...]ffs Tenth Article, Mr Fox (who wrote th [...] Actes & Monuments of the Church) maketh to b [...] this, That there be 12. Disciples of Antichrist, Popes Cardinals, Patriarks, Archbishops, Bishops, Arch [...] deacons, Officials, Deanes, Monkes, Chanons, Fryers Pardoners. And Mr Bales descendeth to the lower degrees of popish ministers, even to Sir Iohn the parish priest, which togither with the former, he cal­leth the names of blasphemie written upon the head of the beast. Mr Barnes in the 6. Art. for w ^ch he was condemned, said I will never beleeve, nor can e­ver beleeve, that one man may by the lawe of God be Bishop of 2. or 3. Cities, yea of a whole Countrie, for that is con­trary to the doctrine of Paul who writing vnto Titus, com­mandeth that he should ordeyne a Bishop in every town.

Hooper on the 8. Cōmandement sheweth, that one man may nor haue two livings, & then he ad­deth: But this is clawe me and I will clawe this: If the Bishop permit not their Priestes to haue two Benefices [...] might likewise happen the Priests would say that the Bishop should be Bishop but of one citie: and indeed so it should be, and till Magistrates bring them to that pointe, it shall be as possible to heare a Bishop wade godly and simply through the scripture, in all case of religion, as to drive a Camel through the eye of a needle. &c.

[Page]The foresayd Christians called Brownists, whom I finde very sound in these things, have in their A­pologie pag. 50. prooved by 8. good Reasons, That the Hierarchy & Ministerie of Popes, Archbishops, Lordbishops, Suffragans, Deanes, Archdeacons are Antichristian. And then by 12. sufficient Rea­sons moe, doe proove that the Hierarchy and Mi­nisterie aforesayd, may not be set over the Church of Christ; nor reteyned therein. For which I refer you to the said Apology, which you may procure a­mongst the people of that profession at London, or else where. It were tedious to tell the names of all the writers against the foresayd Hierarchy and Mi­nisterie of Archbishops and the rest of that rable: but endlesse to set downe all that is written concer­ning them and their princelynes. I will here onely insert a few moe testimonies of the ministers themselves, who being of one church with the chiefe ministers their own masters, may better be credited against them, then mere opposites which are not of them, but separated from them. And first for He­noch Clapham who in ans. to the Bishops Arguments sayth, in the 2. section of the 2. part of his Survey of the Church.

Their cock sure Argument (as they take it) is this; Christ promised to be with his Apostles vnto the end of the world at the giving of the commission, Mat. 28. 19.20. And Timothee is charged to keepe the commandement pure vnto the coming of Christ: But none of those persons should live unto the end. Therefore he spake to some other in [Page] their persons, who must be as were the Apostles and E [...]an­gelists Lords over Pastors & Churches. And who should these be but such Lord Bishops as themselves who haue and occupy jurisdiction & power over all the Churches and ministers of England.

If this be true that our Bishops be Apostles (for if the successors should have had an other name the scripture would haue registred it) If I say they be Apostles, then England hath not dignified them truely, in saying, The Lord Bishop of such a place, who rather should haue sayd, My Lord Apostle of London, My Lord Apostle of Lincolne: Even as it was sayd, Peter the Apostle of the circumcision, and Paul the A­postle of the gentiles. Then likewise England should for that great blessing haue been more bound to praise God, she having more Lord Apostles of her owne, then was in the whole world unto Christ, who sent forth so fewe as twelve, & Paul with Bar­nabas. They being for the most part men of occu­pations, but these being men of state and stately Lords. But before we admit them for Apostles let us compare them with Christs. The first were elect­ed and ordeyned to their office, eyther by Christ the head, or togither by some particular Church: But these eyther by A Prince or by the Cannons of that sea confirmed by an Archbishop.

Secondly, they were appointed to office to the end they might feede feede feed the Lords sheepe. But our English ones, are appointed to their roomes in their old age to the end they may nowe (togither [Page] with the Levites of 50. yeres of age) rest their bones and feed their owne bellies.

Thirdly, the first were tyed to no one sea, but were sent to teach all nations: These keepe them­selves within a stinted compasse, teaching fewe or none once in a long time.

Fourthly the Apostles of Christ could not dis­charge their work but by comming through many wants; These of our land may discharge their work by leaning on their elbowes in the middst of their Lordly platters.

Fiftly, the first were appointed to gather chur­ches and establish all holy order. As for these, not one of them ever gathered a church, but haue kept many in disorder.

Sixtly the first had attending on them (for the furtherance of their Apostolical work) blessed Eu­angelists and preaching Disciples. These latter haue first a company of ruffling Chaplaines that can handle cardes and dice well, secondly a company of swash-rutting serviters that can teach all the pa­rish to sweare and weare all foolish fashioned appa­rel.

Seventhly, the first were plain simple harted Mi­nisters. These are Lords in name, Lords in living, Lords in pompe, Lords checkmate with the noble­est Peere of our Realme.

Eightly the first were brought before lordly ri [...] ­lers, for preaching Christ and his kingdome, these convent preachers before them, & say, if we silence [Page] them not by bonds, imprisonment, gallowes; the [...] will cause the civil Magistrate take away our Episco­pal kingdom.

Ninthly the first established wise godly Elders in every cōgregatiō: These establish dumb dogs & gree­dy hogges in their parishes & confused assemblies.

Tenthly, the Apostle Paul upbraided the Church of Corinthe for not exercising the power of our Lord Iesus committed unto her in delivering up the incestuous to Satan. These Bishops are not so fool­ish, but haue got all the power into their own hāds, sending that latin burbolte our of their unholy court.

Eleventhly, the first sought no kingdome here, because they lookt elswhere to sit on a throne with Iesus: But these so seek kingdome & establish their houses here, as if they were of minde with the go­vernor of the feast in Cana of Galilee that sweet wine is best at the first.

Twelvethly, the Apostles of Christ were the cho­sen penmen of the holy Ghost, and therefore their writings are of sufficient credite in themselves and canonicall: As for our English-ones, God never chose them for such purpose, and therefore their writings which are almost none, and their sermons which are almost as fewe, are to be suspected, and to come under examination.

Lastly to give 13. to the dozen, the Apostle Paul did think, they were set forth the last Apostles, 1 Cor. 4.9. These men come more then XV. hundred [Page] yeres after that they were Apostles. Likewi [...] these opposites can meet togither in one sub­ject, black can be white, and Ataxia can be Eutaxia, Disorder, good order, I shall never beleeve that Lord Bishops are eyther Apostles or Euangelists, or yet so good as Pastors.

This comparison he wrote when heretofore by his separation he was called a Brownist, and nowe it may serve as a glasse for his Lords spiritual to be­hold themselves in. But how he estemeth of them now, or how he maketh the matter with them, ha­ving i [...] priesthood frō and under them, I cannot tell. It is doubtful he hath learned to dye a blacke into whi [...]e, and to make Ataxia, to be Eutaxia, dis­order, good order. But let his conscience see to it, lest he be condemned therof. For if his own hart con­dem [...]e him, God is greater then the conscience.

The next testimonies are from such as never se­p [...]rated. Mr Fenner hath published in Defence of god­ly mo [...]sters against Bridges slanders, pag. 111, that of S. P [...]ul were now in England, & no greater man then he was made by Christ, he might not be equall with these Bishops: For they are spiritual Lords, he was never so: they might send for him by a Pursevant, lay him in the Counter, or command him to the Fleet, so could not Paul doe the least Minister of the Gospell. And againe in the same book p. 123. speaking of their offices he saith, Our kinde of Bishops, the Commissaries, the Archdeacons and such like, we account them no naturall members of the body of Christs Church because they are of humane addition, not borne with [Page] her, nor growne up with her from the cradle.

Mr. Cartwright in his first reply, pag. 8. & 88, striking at the chief and strength of their ministerie, to were, at the Arch Bishops, and Archdeacons, under whom the other Bishops & ministers doe execute their offices, proveth that these functions are not in the word of God, but of the earth, new devised ministeries, and such as can doe no good. Yea that the Arch Bishops office, is the weck of the popish Hierarchy, come out of the bottomles pit of hell.

Mr Travers in Defence of Ecless. discipl. p. 88. [...] 91 against D. Bridges, proveth by divers good & suf­ficient reasons, that their Bishops are neyther Pastors nor Teachers. Vpon which one in a certaine place inferreth, And what ordinary Ministery of the Gospell then doe they execute? As for extraordinarie, the Pre­lates were not knowen, when they were in the world: besides that they are as unlike them as darknes is to light.

And upon my memorie I dare say, that in the De­mostration the authour speaking of this lofty mini­stery, sayth, that they are plants which our heavenly Fa­ther hath not planted, and must be plucked up by the rootes. And how Mr Chaderton hath painted them out I haue shewed before.

Finally, all the seekers of Reformation, haue in the Admonition to the Parl. 2. treatise: sect. 14.18.20. pro­fessed, that the Names and offices of Archbishops, Archdeacons, Lordbishops &c. are togither with their govern­ment drawen out of the Popes shop, Antichristian, Divil­ish and contrary to the scriptures: That the Parsons, Vi­cars, [Page] Parish priests, Stypendaries &c. b [...] birds of the same fither: And in a word (as hath been noted before) that they haue an Antichristian Hierarchy and popish or­dering of Ministers strange from the word of God and the use of all well reformed Churches in the world. Thus may we learne of our own worthies at home, if we will not learne of others abroad, who haue been forced to separate from church & ministery for such fowle, grosse, most horrible & unsufferable corruptions, as are both in the one and other. And wel I remē ­ber that Mr Beza contra Saraviam mentioning but 3. or 4. of the corruptions there, saith (if it be so) that then it is not a corruption in Christianity, but a mani­f [...]st defection from Christ.

Trouble not your self further in this matter at this time, for you haue spokē therof both largely and plainely, opening as it were a window through the which I see a great light, and as my name by interpretation is Desire; so doe I most ear­nestly desire the same light might shine clearely in eyes of all other mens understanding. And now I would I were as wel able as willing to make sute to the higher powers that by their lawfull authoritie, the unlawfull offices & jurisdictions of the Prelates might be abolished. The performance wherof as you know, would make way for establishing of godly preachers throughout the land, and remo­vall of all dumbe dogges and ilde drones, which feed their own bodies & sterve other mens soules. Might this gratious worke be once effected, there [Page] would be full supply for many painfull and wel de­serving preachers, out of those fat Bishopricks and ric [...] revenues, which now serve but for a fewe (& yet too many) proud prela [...]es, and their swagger­ing retinue. But some that were fit to be suiters in this worthy cause, will surely fainte, eyther for feare of mans face, or for want of faith in God.

Yet let all men be comforted in this, that God will haue his vvorke done, vvhen and by vvhomsoever he shall appoint the performāce ther­of. For strong and Mighty is [...]he Lord of Hostes, able to doe all things, vvhen man is vveak and un­able to doe any thing. He hath spoken the vvord and it shall stand, yea his vvord is [...]ure vvord, Hab. 3. vvho then shall resist? And vvho knowes not that the Aboats and the rest of that generation, [...]ad as much [...]oo [...]ing in Englād as haue now the Bishops and wer [...] (in their time) as much supported by hu­mane authoritie as are they? yet being parts of that an i [...]ristian synagogue & spiritual Babylon which the Lord hath threatned to consume, they are con­sumed, rooted out, end quite abolished, and that with as much detestation as these their brethr [...]n are now had in admiration: who being growne great & go ten up aloft, are also terrible to the peoples, wherein they fitly resemble the Anakims & race of the Gi [...]nts in Canaan, for feare of whom the harts of the Israelites melted: wherin they & ten of the 12 spies greatly sinned: but [...]aleh & Iosuah who were faithful, incouraged the Lords people to goe up a­gainst [Page] them, and possesse the good land vvhich the Lord promised them. Be you careful to follow the example of the faithful & not of the feareful, even [...]s you desire to haue sinne subdued, and the un­righteous ordināces of Antichrist overthrown, that the Lords blessed ordinances, which he hath pro­mised to his people now under the Gospell, may be established and enjoyed among them. Labour you as an instrumentall meanes, to make the same light appear unto others, which you say hath arisen un­to your self; that both they and you may walk in the light, as children of the light & of the day; for­saking all d [...]eds of darknes. Continue constant in a good testimony, and bereave not your self of the fruit that will followe. Seeke unto him for your helpe, who is Lord of Lords, and King of Kings, who hath the hear [...]es of all Kings and Princes of the earth to turne [...]hem as it pleaseth him. And se­cundarily s [...]eke unto higher powers, the Prince Peeres and Magistrates, with earnest suite accord­ing to your place and utmost meanes that you can make, for furtherance of a full reformation and freedome from the former abuses: which I stedfast­ly beleeve God wil accomplish at one time or other. Therfore when you haue begun well, be not weary of weldoing. And remember for your exampleing and incouragement, the good hand of God that was upon Nehemias when hee sought the wealth, prosperitie, and reedifying of Ierusalem, and what furtherāce he found at the hands even of a heathen [Page] King, Nehem. 1. chapt. which should put you into a strong hope of good successe and gratious grants from our Christian King.

But where you s [...]em to desire that the livings of idle and Antichristian Prelates, might be converted to the maintenance of painful & Christian preach­ers, you aim not aright at the glorie of God, which cannot be advanced by seeking to have his Minis­tery mainteyned by those livings, that were former­merly consecrated to idolatrie, and yet used to the high dishonour of God, in maintenance of part of that great swarme of popish officers, whereof some are cast out of the land, and many doe yet remaine. Wheras if men will be the true Ministers of Christ, they should cōtent themselves [...]o live by the means that he hath appointed, that is; by the voluntari [...] contribution of the Lords free people, Sainctes by calling. And as for all such idolatrous livings, they ought in every Countrey, by the Magistrates of the same to be converted to civil uses: wherein how much the more that charitie is respected, so much the more shall God therein be honoured. All such livings are of the stollen goods which Anti­christ hath purloigned from the common wealth & civil estates of people, to inriche his Clergie vvith­all: and for supporting of his other abominations. So as such goods and livings cannot rightly be im­ployed till they be converted [...]o civil uses againe. Which vvill be as the taking of the purse from the thieves hand to give unto the true man. But whiles [Page] you think to beg these idolatrous livings from the Prelates to the Preachers, your suite is not worth the suing for, neyther will God be pleased there­with. The preachers that will depend upon God & follow his word are to haue their wants supplied otherwise, as is abovesayd. But thus though you seeme to forsake the errour that you were in about the Bishops office, yet you are in an other errour about their livings, which you think ought to be for other Ministers. And herein I will put my selfe to new paines to informe you better.

Wee haue lately heard a Bell sound, that it is a just judgement of God, upon K. Henry the 8. that there is not one of his posteritie left to sit upon his throne, for bereaving the Church of the Gleabes, Abby lands &c. and imploying them to other uses. And how then shall the taking away of the Bishops livings from the Clergy to the laitie, from the service of God in the Church, to the ser­vice of the common wealth; be esteemed lesse then a sinfull and sacrilegious act?

Such Bells (as you speak of) that sound so badly, deserve well to loose their clappers, or to be hung out of all mens hearing. For the work of that worthy King, in suppressing those Abbyes, Fri­eries, Nunneries and the Vermine living in them, was all within the limits of his office and duetie, as was also the converting of those livings to his own or other civil uses. In which, the more he respec­ted the glory of God and charitie, the more wor­thy [Page] was his work, and deserved the higher praise even as those Kings and Princes shall doe whom God vvill imploy as his instruments, for rooting out the remnant of that race, the Arch and Lord Bishops, with a number of false functions, and an­ti christian offices under them, and converting o [...] their livings likewise to civil uses. For these livings and ecclesiasticall offices and Ministeries maintey­ned by them, haue no better fundation then had the other. And these that yet remaine, are (of a trueth) brethren of the same broode, and byrdes of the same fether; had the same Syre, and were all hatched after the same fashiō with the former, that are driven avvay.

You may therein be mistaken. For those Abbats and the like, vvere indeed first inven­ted, institu [...]ed & ordeyned in the Romane church; by authoritie of it, & of the head therof the Pope; and if you wil I can further & yet truely say, by the permission of God and povver of the Divil vvas that done: But our Bishops vvere made and or­deyned in our English Church of Protestants.

Be it so, yet that makes the sinne never the lesse, but rather vvil cause the punishment from God to be the grea [...]er; in asmuch as they knovve more, and yet doe the same evil vvith others that knovv lesse. And the nearer that men come un­to God, the greater in his sight are the sinnes that they commit. Therfore the Priests in Israel offered greater sacrifices for their sinnes, then ordinary Is­raelites [Page] that fel into the same. Therfore also, judge­ment first beginneth at the house of God, &c. Now as all Churches in the vvorld are bound to receive such Ministeries onely as God hath appointed and none other; so vvhosoever doe institute, appointe, [...]nd or receive, any office of Ministerie that God hath not instituted, appointed & sent, doe grea [...]ly sinne. And if a true Church shall doe it, they sinne more haynously then a false church that doeth the same. Therefore your plea is nothing vvorth, save against your self & our church of England, if it be (as you hold it) a true Church. And vvhen Lord Abbats &c. vvere cast out of it, yet Lord Archbi­shops, and Bishops &c. vvere still reteyned, that had their being at the same time, & their original vvith those that vvere rejected. But such Bishops & inferi [...]ur ministers as they haue made since, vvas by immitat [...]ō of the Papists, vvho had them in their church constantly, before wee had any at all: and although they made some change of persons for those places, yet vvas there no change of the offi­ces themselves, but they remained the same in Q. Elizabeths dayes, that they were before in Q. Ma­ries dayes. And there were divers of the same per­sons that were Bishops and Priestes in Q. Maries dayes▪ that kept the same offices in Q. Elizabeths dayes, by the former calling that they had in Po­p [...]ry, and held stil the same Bishopricks, Parsona­g [...]s & livings, that vvere alotted them for mainte­nāce in the very same ministerie before. And they [Page] onely recanted of some popish heresies in doctrin [...] and opinion, vvith renunciation of the supremaci [...] of the Bishop of Rome. And some of them die not that, as I haue seen under the hands of 14. wit­nesses vvhich vvas addressed to the Arch Bishop by vvay of complaint against their popish Parson Mil [...] Bennes of Sevenock, who vvas left upō them frō the time of Q. Marie. Neither vvere such (if they recā ­ted) esteemed vvorse then such as were made by themselves, but rather reckned for the better. And he that is made a Bishop or priest at Rhemes o [...] Rome, coming to England with such recantation as aforesayd, is admitted to administer without any newe ordination. Wheras the Ministerie of Pastors made in the reformed Churches must passe under a new ordinatiō before they may administer there. Which sheweth rightout what office and ordinati­on it is that they like and love best.

I pray you let me ask you, what dif­ference you put between the Israelites sinne in wor­shipping the calves, or God by the calves, as they pretended: and the papists sin in worshipping their images, or (as they would haue it,) God by their images?

I see in that small difference, for Israel was then a false church though it had been of the true. And the heape of papists are likewise a false church, though the Church of Rome before time was true. And whether men make the images of calves or of other creatures, for any worship to God [Page] they are all inventions of men, the workes of their [...]endes, and meere idols, which haue no warrant in Gods word, but are an open and direct breach of the second Commandement▪ And in some ignorāt papists that pray unto the image it selfe as a thing of divine inspiration, it is a transgressiō of the first.

But now to returne to the sound of your Bell, which you brought as an instance against convert­ing of false church livings to civil uses. How contra­rie was that sound to somthing, which others ha [...]e written of that very point in our owne tongue, ac­cording to trueth? Mr. Fr. Iohns. in Ans. to M.H. Iacob, hath words worthy of note, p. 199. saying, We acknowledge with thanks to God and her Majestie, that cut of her highnes Dominions there be already abo­lished many of the abominations of the Romish Baby 16. And wee pray God, that for as much as many of them be yet remayning &c. that if it be the wil of God, her High [...]es may be the instrument to suppresse and abolish these [...]lso, and to establish the whole trueth of God according to this word. And further, that shee may take to her own Civil uses the Lordships and possessions of the Prelates and other Clergy, as God hath fore told and appointed should be done with them ( Rev. 17.15. & 1▪ 17.18.) And as King Henry the eight (her Majesties Fath [...] of famous memory) did with the Abbats, Monks, Fryess, Nunnes, and with their possessions and revenewes.

Which happy worke, by what Princes soever it be done (as certainly will come to passe, for the Lord of Hostes hath spoken it) it will greatly redound to the glory of God, the honour of themselves, the free passage of the Gospell, the peace of the Church, & benefit of the whole Common wealth.

[Page]Againe a faithful witnes of the trueth, to [...] George Ioy upon Dan. in the yeare 1545. writ downe ingeniously his own & other mens judg­ment, concerning the livings and maintenance the Prelates and other Clergy. Vpon the 5. of D [...]niel this question is made, Doe they not sinne with B [...]sazar, that convert the Church goods into prophane use [...] Then it is there thus answered, The vessels prophan [...] by Belsazar were consecrated by the Word of God: Wher [...]fore he sinned in prophaning them. But the goods & lew [...] of our Temples, Abb [...]yes and Bishopricks are not consecr [...]ted to such uses by Gods Word, but by their owne invent [...] [...]ovetous charmings: wherefore Emperours, Kings, an [...] Princes may take them away and put them to better vses, [...] to the maintenance of schooles, vniversities &c. Thu [...] wrote and witnessed those blessed servants of Go [...] heretofore. Vpon which I would inferre that if th [...] Magistrates may imploy such livings to maintenāc [...] of schooles & vniversities, then also for founding & upholding of Hospitalls, almes-houses, & the like, for helpe of poore, widowes, fatherless, & strangers for the impotent sick and helpless of all sorts, fo [...] making and repairing of bridges, hye wayes, &c. And also if it please the head of the Common-wealth, and neede so require, they may serve for support to the state, for royaltie of the Court, for maintenāce of lawfull warres against the enforcings of forreign foes, or rebellions of domesticall enemies, and a number the like services, wherin such livings might be lawfully imployed with comfort and safe con­science: [Page] all which may seem to be implyed in the former writers word et cetera, to be their meaning likewise. And wee may read in the Acts and Mo­numents in the hystories of Iohn Wicleff, Williā Swin­derby, Sr. Iohn Oldcastle Lord Cobham, Iohn Claydon, and other the Martyrs of Christ, who held & pro­fessed these orders of Archbishops, Lordbishops, Arch­deacons &c. to be the Disciples of Antichrist, yea very Antichrist thēselves: That the possessions and Lordships of the Clergie are the venime of Iudas shed into the Church, &c. Act. & Monum. edit. 4. p. 150. a 468. b. 562. b. 363. a 6 9. b.

Why whither will you now run?

Into the trueth I trust, with all faithfull witnesses of the same: & no further thē I am taught by the word and spirite of God.

But you haue not alwayes been of this minde, that such livings ought not of right to apperteyne to the ministerie of the Gospell. Ne­verthelesse if you haue seene a further light by the opposers of Prelatisme abroade, then you had at home, it would be good to make your friends and countrey partakers therof.

Very gladly shall I doe that. But first you are to observe this for your selfe, that the holy Martyrs and witnesses of Christ were of this minde long before me, as I haue shewed and could shewe yet further if need require. And for that I haue not alwayes been of this minde, it is sufficient that I came vnto it when God gaue me meanes to see that [Page] it was the minde of his High Majestie, wherunto & all men ought to conforme our selves. The Apo­stle Paul was not alwayes of the minde that Iesus o [...] Nazaret was the Christ: But some while he persecu­ted such as professed him, til he saw otherwise. And then he became a preacher of the same trueth both abroade and in bands unto the death. And eve [...] so Lord Iesus just and righteous, give me constancy in witnessing this part of thy truth against the Pre­lates, their offices, entrance, administrations, man­ner of maintenance and large jurisdictions, all which are unlawfull and contrary to the scriptures. As for your desire or hope of help from abroade; I could wish you rather to turne your eyes another way, and look nearer home. For I am perswaded that there are not greater meanes of helpe to be found in the world for this service, then God hath raised up, in and unto our owne land, of the true borne subjects and naturall children thereof. And that both of the forwarder sort of Ministers, and learned men in our Church of England, as al­so, and more specially of the people called Brownists; who by their diligence in the scriptures and advan­tage of their cause, are most strongly furnished a­gainst the Prelates, against their Antichristian juris­dictions, and Lordly livings &c. At whose handes if helpe were sought, espetially of the learned a­mong them, great helpe might be had.

And may not the like helpes be had from the Anabaptists also? for they are likewise ve­ry [Page] opposite to the Bishops.

They are so. And to give them their due, many of them are very honest men with all; but yet they disadvantage themselves sundry wayes. First, by their hereticall opinions. 2. Because they haue, approve and allow, of generall Bishops, for bapti­sing, &c. in all their assemblies; at least, in so ma­ny of them as hold one societie, and are of one cō ­munion. And so what they condemne and cast downe in others, they (after a sort) doe justifie and hold up in thēselves, by their owne practise. But the practise & professiō of the other (mistermed ones) accordeth in one, and strengtheneth one another.

I am glad you conceipt the wayes of the Anabaptists no better. For I had you in some jealousie concerning them. But it is sorow enough that you preferre the Brownists before our forward Ministers.

I haue good reason in this case so to doe. For as they hold it unlawfull for our Ministers of Englād, to haue those idolarrous livings aforesaid, so they hold it unlawfull for their owne, and all o­ther ministeries to haue them; but would that they were returned againe to the Common-wealth from whence they were taken. But our forward Ministers, that with the Prelates downe, and their livings to be taken from them, would gladly haue them for their owne use, as you likewise pleaded for them. And I feare they hold it no better then sacrilege if they be otherwise imployed. Whereof your owne [Page] selfe also made question a litle before. But to speak the trueth without respect of persons and to flatter with none, these things in thern are meere trifling, if not also hypocrisie, arising of covetousnes. For if they be lawfull for themselves, they are lawfull for the superior Ministers also, by vvhom these inferior ones were made. If they say nay; For their inferior Ministerie is a true Ministerie; but the Lordly Mini­sterie is not so: therfore these livings belong unto them and not to their Lords. Herein they deceive themselves, but let them not deceive you nor o­thers. For seing the inferiour Ministerie is derived from and made by the superiour; eyther then the superiour ministerie must be true, or these of their making cannot be true. But the other being false that maketh, these must needs bee false that are made by them. For every creature bringeth forth according to his owne kinde, whether it be man, or byrds or beasts, whether cleane or uncleane. And if the roote be holy, so are the branches: But if the roote be corrupt and impure, the branches must needs be so likewise. Adam and Eve corrupted, brought forth a man in their owne likenes, that is▪ one corrupted like themselves. But I can shewe you divers wayes whereby you may discerne, that the Brownists (a [...] you call them) are the best Champi­ons to fight this battel, and are most likely to win the field.

I cannot tell. I am sure they are coun­ted a s [...]ct, and are every where evil spoken of.

But the question is, whether it is for evil doing, or for weldoing? If for well doing, they are [...]o beare it paciently as partakers of the crosse and suffrings of Christ, whose faithfull servants and wit­nesses of old, even in the Apostles dayes were coun­ted a sect likewise, even the sect of the Nazarites, and were every where evill spoken of in like sorte. But did it therefore follow that they were accord­ing to the report & esteem that was amongst men concerning them? Or should men therefore haue rejected them, or any good thing among them? Let it be farre from you so to think, and further off in that sort to speake, eyther of those former, or yet of these later Christians. Christ himself was the chiefe corner stone, vvhom the builders refused, yet he became the head of the corner. And surely these me vvhich you and others are ready enough to refuse for helpe in this service, are the most sound & sufficient of any that I knowe for convicting of our common adversaries and terrible opposites the Prelates and loftie Clergy of the land. Wherfore I would advise you and all, never to shunne, but di­ligently to seeke, & thankfully to receive their helpe when it may be had. And if we see them to erre in any other thing (as all men are subject to errour) [...]et readynes be shewed in the spirite of meeknes to helpe them. Thus shall we both please God & cō ­fort one another.

Therein you say well. But where you charge the Anabaptists with hereticall opinions, (& true it [Page] is that such they hold) I praye you how much bet­ter is it with the Brownists? They condemn (as the report goes) not onely the best people of the land: but also condemne and forsake the faith professed and mainteyned there, counting it the faith of the Divils, and professing another faith for themselves. Now for my owne part, I am not onely perswaded, but fully assured through the mercie of God, that the faith professed in England is the true saving faith of Gods elect, and if ever they be saved them­selves, it must be through the same faith in Christ. Therefore if they be guilty of that report, my soule shall haue no pleasure in them, till they returne by repentance. For, to erre in that pointe is a matter of no small importance.

That report is eyther a mere slander, raised up by the Divil in his instruments for the disgrace of their cause, or if ever it was spoken by any of them, it must be some one very simple, that erreth therin through ignorance; or some that are strongly carried with zeale against the false & con­fused order of that Church; and not distinguishing b [...]tweene order and faith, may happen through hast or incōsideratenes to call the one by the name of the other. And so when they speake of the im­pure faith of the Church of England, may intend onely the impure and corrupt order that is therin.

If you had not holpen with such a lift, they had lien under it for me. But sure such zeal is preposterous zeale, and such inconsideratenes, is [Page] headie, rash and undiscreet [...]ar [...]age, not agreeing with Christianitie, not beseeming sobrietie.

Be it so. Yet can you not justly impute that to a whole company which is done by one or two, when the rest doe not approve it, but are a­gainst it. And there is no religion wherein there are not some that miscarie themselves, eyther through zeale, or ignorance, or else in headie, rash and in­considerate speech. Yet such as so offend among these, are liable to the rebuke of their Presbyterie and Church it self, if the cafe so require. And the maine difference between them and England, is a­bout outward orders and ordinances, and the faith professed by both, is one and the same. And con­cerning the matter of heresie, they never were not can be convicted therof. And when they sent their confession of faith to the Reverend learned man M. Francis Iunius, desiring him if he sawe them to erre in any thing, to shewe it unto them: He vouchsafed to write and send them a friendly and brotherly answer: But declared no errour nor heresie in all that they wrote unto him. Neyther did any of the learned in the Vniversities of L [...]yden, Sainct andrewes, H [...]idelberge, Geneva, and other like schooles of learning in the L [...]w countreyes, Scotland, Germany and France, to whom they directed their Confession of Faith ma­ny yeres since. And whereas the Heades and Doc­tors of Oxford, doe carpe against them in their An­swer to The humble Petition of the Ministers of the Ch [...] of England: and these defending themselves in their [Page] Apology & calling upon thē by many reasons for proofe of their accusations, they reply to Puritans & Papists, but doe let these alone unanswered: & for what cause, wise men may easily conjecture.

And now Desiderius, that you may the better per­ceive that they hold the same faith with us in Engl. & what their difference from us in other things is, heare what themselves haue professed and printed. In the Preface of their Confessiō of Faith, thus they write. And further we testifie by these presents unto all men, and desire them to take knowledge hereof, that we have not forsaken any one point of the true Auncient Catholike & Apostolike faith professed in our land: but hold the same grounds of Christian religion with them still, agreeing like­wise herein, with the Dutch, Scottish, Germane, Frēch, Helvetian, and all other Christian reformed Churches round about us, whose Confessions published, we call to witnes our agreement with them, in matters of greatest moment, being conferred with these Articles of our Faith fol­lowing. The things then onely against which we contend, and which we mislike, in the English parish assemblies, are many reliques of the man of synne (whom they pretend to have abandoned) yet reteyned among them, and with a high hand mainteyned, upholden, and impos [...]d. &c.

And Mr Henry Barrowe one of their writers, in a letter of his sent unto a Right honourable Lady, & published in their Apology, concerning this pointe sayth, That he did gadly imbrace and beleeve the common faith received and professed in the land, as most holy and s [...]und ▪ And that he had reverend estimation of sundry, [Page] & good hope of many hundred thowsands in the land: though he misliked the present constitution of this Church, in the present communion, ministerie, ministration, worship, go­vernment and ordinances ecclesiasticall of these Cathedrall and parishionall assemblies.

If the rest of them be like him, then are they not so uncharitable in their judging of our people, as some men say they are.

They generally put difference betweene all good mens Church estate, as they are under the ordinances of Antichrist, and their personall e­state, indued with many heavenly and holy graces. Therefore open not your eares too wide in hearing reports, for many that are giuen out against them, are surely false. But heare a litle further vvhat them­selves doe professe. Mr Barrow in his writing in­tituled a fewe observations to the reader of M. Gif­fords last reply, s. 4. saith thus. Haue we not commended, the faith of the English Martyrs, and deemed them saved, notwithstanding the false offices and great corruptions in the worship they exercised, not doubting but the mercy of God, through their sincere faith to Iesus Christ extended and su­perabounded all their sinnes seen and vnseene. And what now should let, that we should not haue the same hope, where the same precious faith in sinceritie and simplicity is found? So that they neyther neglect to search out the truth, nor de­spise the truth when they see it, &c. And this he fur­ther cleareth in the same section.

Mr Iohn Penrie likevvise, in his Examinatiō hath these vvords, For I know the doctrine touching the holy [Page] Trinitie; Nature, and Offices of the Lord Iesus; Free justi­fication by him; both the sacraments &c. published by her Majesties authoritie and commanded by her lawes▪ to be the Lords blessed and undoubted truthes, without the knowledg and profession wherof no salvation is to be had. And shew­eth the things that he disliketh, and for vvhat cause he durst not partake in the publik assemblies of our land, notwithstanding the former truthes there taught and professed.

And againe in his Confession of faith he sayth, The trueth of doctrine touching the holy Trinitie, touching the natures and Offices of Christ▪ Iustifying faith, Sa­craments and Eternall life, and the rest, established by her Majesties Lawes, and professed by her self, their Honours, and such as have knowledge in the assemblies of this land: I acknowledge from my heart to be such, as if I mainteyned not the unitie, and held not the communion of the same do­ctrine with them in these points, I could not possibly be saved: For out of the communion of the true profession, which her Majestie hath established in these and the like truthes, there is no hope of salvation left: But ioyne notwithstanding in the publike assembles of this Land, I dare not, for the former causes.

I doe moreover willingly confesse, that many, both of the Teachers, and also of the Professors within these Parish as­semblies, haue so imbraced this trueth of doctrine, establi­shed and professed in this Land, as the Lord of his infinite goodnes, hath granted them the favour, to show outwardly many tokens, wherby (in regard of the Lords election) I professe before men and Angels, that I judge them to be mē ­bers, [Page] of that body, whereof the sonne of God Christ Iesus [...] the head. Onely herein the Lord be merciful unto them, (as to my self in regard of my synnes:) that they are not under that outward form of govermēt which Christ hath left, &c.

And whereas Mr Iacob would father upon this people, that they hold every person in England which holdeth the publick faith, is no true Christian. Mr Iohn­son in his answer, pag. 7. sayth thus; Touching this point, I minde the state of their people two wayes: the one concerning their severall persons considered a part from the constitution of your Church; the other concerning their es­tate and standing in that constitution. Concerning the for­mer of these, (that is, considering them a part from the cō ­stitution) I acknowledge that in divers of them there ap­peareth such knowledge and faith of the Gospell with the fruits thereof, as they may well be thought▪ in regard of Gods election in Christ, to be heires of salvation, and in that respect to be true Christians: God pardoning unto them their standing under Antichrist, which they doe not see or minde. But I seare least many more were heretofore parta­ker of this grace then be now since your Antichristian estate and the unlawfulnes to a [...]ide therein hath been discovered. Concerning the latter, (that is, in respect of their estate & standing in that constitution of your Church) I am perswa­ded whosoever so stand, holding your publik [...] faith and mul­titude of Antichristian abhominations withall they cannot by the word of God be judged true Christians, as touching their outward estate in that Church of yours: but stand all subject to wrath, God imputing this their sinne unto them. And that all therfore whosoever willbe assured of Gods mer­cie [Page] and salvation, ought with speed to goe out of your Church, it still remayning in Antichristian estate. &c.

Thus Desiderius, I haue shewed you what divers of them haue written and professed in and about the point by you objected: & if it be not sufficient I will shew you more.

You may spare that labour for I am fully satisfied.

And for that cause I was the more large: As also that (when these things are published) o­thers at home & abroad may likevvise receive satis­faction. And if any of the people themselves have been so overseen, as to speak according to the re­port that you heard, they may (by this meanes) be againe brought to their owne grounds, which some through simplenes, rashnes, or incōsiderate­nes may forget, & offend against the same: But the more circumspect and wise, are more considerate and wary. Thus being somewhat weary, I will rest from discoursing a while; and in the meane time, you may read these three writings which will be worth your paines and the printing. And they al­so will cleare that people and the truth, from such clamours as you haue heard concerning thē. The first is a letter which one of them in Ireland wrote unto a Scottish preacher there, A ^o. 1594. wherein is layd downe sundrie grounds of their se­paration. The other are two Petitions: the first whereof was vvritten by Mr Henry Barrovve in the daies of Q. Elizabeth of famous memorie: the se­cōd [Page] by another of their vvriters, [...] the time of the first Parliament holden in the happy raign of our now Soveraigne, King Iames.

I pray you tell me, Was this Petition of Mr Barrowes owne writing?

The draught of it was, and some copies also. One of which I haue seen in the hands of a Gent. very fairely wri [...]ten, and out of it was this same exactly taken. But read the other, and then tel me your judgement of them both.

Now haue I read this Petition also, and I thank you for them bothe; for me thinks they are able to give content, satisfaction, and wor­thyness to speak, even in the presence of a Prince. A wonder it is if they moved not Magistrates to pi­tie and compassion, save onely that our Lordly Mi­nisters are subtile incensers & great resisters. God give them repentance unto life, if through their malicious sinning they be not appointed unto death. But I much lament that our deare Coun­trie should be so stained with suffering them to ex­ercise such crueltie towardes tho [...]e that witnes the [...]ruth in any part thereof. It is therefore a much better thing for any to partake of their afflictions, then with their persecutors in their oppressing of them. For of the people of God afflicted the Apo­stle sayth; It is a righteous thing with God, to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you, And to you which are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Iesus shall shew him­self from heaven, with his mighty Angels, In flaming fyre, [Page] [...]dring vengeance &c. 2 Thess. 1.6.7. &c.

It is well observed Desiderius. For tha [...] day of the Lords coming shalbe unto his people & weldoers, a day of gladnes and much joy▪ but un­to the wicked and evill doers it will cause great ter­rour and feare. To them it will be as the Prophet Ioel saith, A day of darknes and of blacknes, a day of clowdes and obscuritie. Ioel 2.2. Then shall they crye hilles and mountaines cover us from the presence of him▪ that suteth on the throne. (Then shall a good consci­ence be more worth then a world. And whosoever would haue it at that day must labour to haue and to hold, to nourish & enterteine it, all the daies of his life; lest when he seeks for it he finde it not. And they that once haue it, let thē take heed they make not shipwrack therof.) But for the comfort of all such as are persecuted for conscience sake, and to the terrifyng of their persecutors, the Apostle useth this worthy speech, And in nothing feare your adversa­ries which is to them a token of perdition, but to you of sal­vation, and that of God. Phil. 1.28.

You began to speak of the unlawful­nes of appropriating such livings to the mainte­nance of the true Ministerie & worship, which the idolaters consecrated unto false ministeries & false worship: I desire you cleare that point further if you can. For one would think there can be no use made of them tending more to the honour of God, then the imploying of them to his service and worship.

The same colour might haue be set up­on [Page] the offring up of divers strange beas [...]es in sacri­fice to the Lord, which yet might not be done by any man, at any time, for any cause. And this which you object, carries no fairer a show with it, then did Saul his sparing the fat cattel of Ameleck under the same pretence of offering them in sacrifice to the Lord: but not being according to the minde of God manifested by his word, but contrary to the same▪ it was imputed unto him for rebellion and transgression, which are matched by the Prophet with witchcraft, wickednes, and idolatrie. 1 Sam. 15. For the Lord hath no such pleasure in sacrifice, as when his voice is obeyed. ( ibidem.) And thus may you see that Sauls good intent had as faire a colour as can be set upon the imployments of po­pish livings to true Church uses; yet was this a spe­cial cause of his ruyne, and cutting off from his kingdome. God requires not that to be done, which is right in the eyes of man, but all that hee commandeth, and is according to his will revealed, that is to be observed with all strictnes, care, love, readynes and good conscience. Wee must not be wiser, nor holyer then God, neyther doe more in his worship and service then he commandeth. And seing he hath no where cōmanded nor given such livings for his Church and Ministerie, how may a­ny man appoint or appropriate them thereunto? If God had commanded all such livings to have been destroyed utterly, and made voide from all use of man, (as he commanded Adam and Eve not to eat [Page] [...] all of the tree of knowledge of good and evill,) should he not therein be obeyed? How much more readily then should men submit unto him therin, seing he alloweth them for charitable uses in the cō ­mon wealth, & hath appointed another manner of maintenance for the ministerie of his Church, as hath been shewed before.

And as it is plaine that men haue no commande­ment from God to bring in such livings for church uses; so neyther may they doe it voluntarilie, with­out commmandement. For all voluntarie religion and will worship is vaine, and all worship to God, by the inventions, traditions and precepts of men, is also vaine. Esa. 29.13. Mat. 15.8.9. Cull. 2.21.22.23. and against the 2 ^d. Commandement. Exo. 20.4.5.6.

Moreover by the law of God in Deut. 33, it is unlawfull for any man to bring the hyre of a whore, into the house of the Lord our God, for any vowe, (Which vowes vvere voluntarie.) And the reason why such might not be so brought, is there expres­sed to be, because it is an abomination to the Lord our God. Then whosoever bringeth into his house, for maintenance of his Ministerie, Worship or the like; the livings cōsecrated to the idolatrous worship & ministerie of that Popish heape of Antichri­stians the false Church, such (I say) doe bring in the hyre of a whore, which by this lawe is unlawful for men, and abomination unto the Lord. For no man can justly deny that spiritual whoredome is as great a sin as carnal, neyther can any truely affirm, [Page] that ever there was a more abominable [...] for spirituall whoredomes and adulteries then i [...] the church of Rome, which hath made all nation drunk with the cup of her fornications, and hat [...] received much hire of many lovers, that haue (fo [...] their dalliance and pleasures with her) greatly in riched her. Whereupon it will inevitably folow, & men may safely conclude that the hire of this spiri­tual whore is as lothsome, intolerable & unlawfull [...] for any service in and about the Church and wor­ship of God, or support of his Ministerie, as the hire of any carnall whore in the world ever was. For a [...] the lawes of God are spirituall, and haue in them besides the outward letter, a spiritual sense and un­derstanding; so must we by the same law foreallea­ged hold both these as an abhomination to the Lord our God. Let every one therefore that hath his true feare, beware that they neither bring in not assent unto the bringing in, for maintenance of the true Ministerie and worship, the hire of that Popish Church which is so excedingly adulterate from the right way, worship, order and faith of God, & so old (yea so incorrigible) in her evils, as the consci­ence of good Protestants doe wel knowe, and need no further conviction that shee is not, neither possi­bly can be, the true Spouse and Church of Christ in such estate; but a most abominable harlote [...], wed­ded to her Lord God the Pope, as he is called by themselves in their owne writings. Though indeed he be the very Antichrist, and suiteable head of that [Page] [...]dolatrous church, which in all [...] self above King and Kaesar, nay more then so, even above all that is called God or that is worshipped. [...] Thes. 2.4. And how then should the hyre & wage, that is, the livings and revenues, befallen unto this filthy womā the false Church, for her fornications, be now converted and given unto the true Spouse and Church of Christ, or unto the Ministerie there­of. Is there any hon [...]st man (think you) that will indure to see his wife decked with the knowne Ie­wels & gifts that some notorious open harlote had received of her lewde lovers? And may we think that Christ Iesus will indure his Spouse the true Church, to be decked, supported and laciviously set up with the hire of the whore of Rome, that false & counterfeyt Church, as though he had no other meanes to mainteyne her, then that which is evi­dently the wage of wickednes and engine of evill?

But how can the Popish church livings be accounted engins of evill?

Thus, First they did apperteyne to the Common wealth, and were in all deceiveablenes of unrighteousnes craftily purloigned drawn and cō ­verted to Antichrists church and clergie. From the time wherof they challenge the onely right & pre­rogative concerning them: though in deed they vvere then perverted from a right and lawfull use, to an unlawful, wrong and wicked use. For men ought to honour the Lord with their riches, &c. ( Prov. 3.9.) and not thereby to advance Antichrist and his religion. God is honour­ed [Page] by riches, onely when they are imployed acco [...]ding to his Lawe & appointment. But these bein [...] imployed for sinful services contrary to the Lawe men are readie enough for desire of injoying suc [...] setled livings to enter into and continue in an ido [...]latrous, treacherous, & Antichristian estate. There [...]fore such livings are engins of evil.

Secondly, they being once made ecclesiasticall [...] caused great covetousnes to come upō our Protestā [...] Bishops and Priests, that of a desire to have vvha [...] the Popelings left, they played catch that catc [...] may, as if they thought themselves (as I know the [...] are) the next heires and nearest of kin vnto the for [...]mer Clergie, the burners of Gods holy Bible, an [...] murderers of our forefathers the Martyrs. And ar [...] not these engins of evill?

3. And vvhiles they are continued in this eccle [...]siasticall use, they are great allurements to the Iesu [...]ites and Seminarie Priests, (the Popes marked Mi [...]nisters, the merchants and sales-men of his Baby­lonish vvares,) to plot, contrive and practise, their treasonable courses against Kings and Princes, no [...] caring for the overthrovve of States and Countries▪ so as they may again make vvay for the sale of thei [...] sayd vvares, and repossesse the former consecrated livings to themselves againe, vvwhich are novv in the hands & use of the Protestant Clergie, vvhom ther­fore the Papists doe divulge as thieves. And are they not engines of evil?

4. And againe, the continuance of them in the [Page] use aforesayd, doe strongly nourish their hopes to see a day for their owne seating in them againe. Wheras if that ecclesiasticall use were changed, and the thinges established to a good civill use, their hopes would utterly vanish away, & Princes should be setled in much more safetie then they are or can be whiles these baites remaine. And are not these then, rightly termed engines of evill?

Fiftly, they being not restored to the common wealth, from whence they were taken; but serving for the pompe of proud Prelates and Priestes, usur­pers keeps owners from their right; and through want of supply in such outward helpes, some doe sterve, others doe steale, through which many are hanged, God is dishonoured, the gospel disgraced, the face of good people ashamed, and true christi­an hearts are wounded. And are not these the ve­ry engins of evill?

Enough Miles the pointe is plaine. And I see by these that you might make a whole vo­lume of that argument onely.

But what think you then, were it not better that our Clergie would cary thē ­selves concerning these livings, as honest Abraham the father of the faithfull did about the spoiles of Sodome which he recovered from the five Kings, who had immediatly before taken them for a spoile from Sodom. Of the which, Abraham would not take for himself so much as a threed or a shooe lat­chet, lest the King of Sodome should say, I haue made [Page] that all false and antichristian Ministeries (yet re [...]y­ned in the land) ought by the Princes authoritie to be rooted out. The second, That (by like autho­ritie) their antichristian & idolatrous livings ought to be cōverted to (charitable) civil uses: & are not to be given or appropriated to Gods true Ministerie for the maintenance therof: neither ought it to re­ceive the same. For it stands not with the honour of God, that Beth-el, Gods house, should be gar­nished and supported with the things belonging to or taken from Beth-aven the house of idols. As if the Almightie wanted other meanes for support of his owne house, and must needes be beholden to the house of idols to help him and his. This sin is in nature somwhat differing from the sin of the Ba­bylonians in stealing away the vessels out of the Lords house to busie in the belching banquets of Belshazzar; but it differeth not in substance frō it.

You call the writing, the first part &c. which implieth a second likewise. But is there so?

I never saw it; but I hope ere my return, I shal see Amsterdam and Leyden, where I shal make diligent inquiry among the people there. But dout­ful it is, that after the Bishops heard of the first part & of an intendement of a second, that they hastned the authours death, to stop the current that began to run so strongly against them. Wherfore I exhort you to use this well, read it advisedly, and the Lord direct thy spirit to the right understanding & good use making of all things. And so fare ye well till to morow and the day after.

GOod morrow Monsiour Mi [...]. [...] am glad of your returne; and tha [...] not onely because I love your person & company but also that I may haue a little further discours [...] with you who have been so profitable unto me b [...] writings and conference. Here I give you again the Platforme, wishing that it & the rest were printed togither; but especially if it hath a second part. Bu [...] how is it that towards the end of this there are cer [...]tain words wanting?

Those wordes were spoiled by ill acciden [...] in my custodie; but the reader may gather the sense or help himself as he may: For I am now where [...] cannot haue another coppie to perfect it: but our hope must be that London, Arnsterdam, or L [...]yden▪ will supply all such defects.

But what say you for the second part [...]

I know not where to haue it, neyther doe I think that ever it was finished. For, the ad­versary-Prelats thought better to finish the authors lives.

Oh miserable murtherers. God give thē repentance, and raise up others that remaine, with abilitie, power, will and readiness, to p [...]form that thing which their fellowes and friends christianly intended.

It were in deed a work worthy the under­taking, and I doubt not of the sufficiencie of sun­dry men for the well performing of it, if they set themselves unto it.

To whom was this work presented?

As I haue heard, To the Right Honoura­ble S. William Cicill Knight, Barron of Burleigh, Lord High Treasurer of England &c.

They in their writing haue praised his wisdome, but had he preserved their lives from the violence and cruelty of the Prelats, that would have praised his vertue.

What shall we say? there hath seldome any truth come to light but it hath cost som bloud, & that should teach men to love it the better. Such use let all people learne to make of it.

What is that Iohn Greenwood whose name also is subscribed in the end of this first part?

He was a coepartener with Mr Barrow in his testimony, imprisonment, and death it self. A learned man he was, as appeareth by an answer of his to Mr G. Gyfford touching read prayer. He had formerly been a Minister according to the or­der of the Church of England, but degraded him­self by repentance, as he saith of himself in his Exa­mination. And afterwards he was Teacher in a par­ticular church separated frō the publike assemblies of the land. A Gentleman of a good house tolde me that Queen Elizabeth asked the learned Doct. Raynolds what he thought of those two men? And he answered her Majestie, that it could not availe a­ny thing to shew his judgement concerning them, seeing they were put to death: and being loath to speake his mind further, her Highnes charged him [Page] upon his allegiance to speake. Whereupon he an­swered, that he vvas perswaded, if they had lived, they would haue been two as worthy instruments for the Church of God, as hath been raised up in this age &c: Her Maiestie sighed and sayd no more. But after that, riding to a Parke by the place where they were executed, called to mind their suf­fring of death, (and being willing to take further information concerning them,) demanded of the Right Honourable E. of Cumb. (that was present when they suffred) what end they made? He answe­red, A very godly end, and prayed for your Maiesti [...], the State, &c. Moreover Mr Philips a preacher fa­mous, having both heard and seen Mr. Barrowe his holy speeches, and preparation for death, sayd; Bar­rowe Barrowe my soule be with thine. For thus haue I been credibly informed.

You have saved me a labour, for I had thought to haue asked some questions hereabouts: but I am satisfied aforehand. Yet I pray you tel me the reasō why they printed not this platform here­tofore, and that espetially against the Kings Maie­sties first Parliament in England; For that was the time, then was the hope.

Had his Majestie any Arch or Lord Bishop in all his kingdome of Scotland? were not all pu [...] downe? And who would not then haue thought, but the like worthy work should haue been done in England, after his Highnes coming thither, to haue brought those kingdomes and countries into [Page] Christian uniformitie? This was their hope; who sought no praise to themselves; but desired that his Majestie should (as the instrumentall meanes) haue done it of himselfe, without any mans soliciting; that the whole praise should be primarily unto God the cause of all causes, and secundarily unto his Highnes, for preferring the will of the HIGH­EST, in so weightie a point, as the abolishing of Bi­shops, & converting of their livings unto charitable vses in the common wealth: But seeing things fall out contrary to expectation; It is (in my opinion) great pittie, that such a work should any longer lye unprinted. Wherefore through their neglect, I wil cause it to come forth; being perswaded it shall tend much to the honour of God and relief of many, which is both pietie and pittie. And if it prove any losse to proud Prelates the possessors of those over­large-livings, it is but their due demerite, and they may all learn therby (God giving them such grace) to make much spirituall profite for their soules health and comfort: wherof they haue farre more need, then of that abundance of bodily benefites. And in hope to effect the ends premised, I intreate all men who shall happen to have any of these cop­pies, to make good use of them both for their own instruction and benefite, as also for the common good; and that especially against all succeeding Par­liaments, till the mark aymed at be rightly hit, and the goale fully wonne.

But how know you they stayed the prin­ting [Page] of the Plot against the Prelates, upon any such desire, hope, or consideration as you mentioned?

I had speech with Mr. Francis Iohnson one of the Pastors of that people, who came with other his assistants to make thei [...] humble sute to the King, & were readie to enterteyne conference with the Prelates, that his Majestie might the more per­fectly haue understood the innocēcy of their cause, and the evilnes of their adversaries: And that same party told me, if they should print the foresaid Plat­forme, he thought it would give offence, and bee very ill taken, inasmuch as it was thought that the King and Councell would doe something of them­selves for the abolishing of Bishops &c. And so they patiently wayted to see what would be done. And wheras God so disposed that Arch Bishop Whitgift at the beginning of the first Parliament after his Ma­jesties coming suddenly died, the sayd Mr Iohnson thus spake unto me and others; That God had shew­ed unto the King what he would haue him to doe with the rest of the Bishops, in taking away the chiefest of them at such a tyme. And as it was wel observed of him; so I doe most earnestly desire that all whom it concer­neth will well call it unto minde, and duely consi­der of it, for such good use as the GOD of heaven would have to be made by men on earth. For se­ing that he who is the God above all Gods, Angels, and men, did in his wisdome and providence, put downe at such a tyme, him that was Bishop above al Bishops in the Land: and at once turned him out [Page] of the Councell, Court and Parliament; as also frō the Church, Ministerie, and world it selfe, happily it may insinuate that Bishops are unfit for, and un­worthy of, all and every of those places, till they be cast in an other moulde and made all new. And if there be no use of the highest and chiefest of them, and at the chiefest time, as God did seem to shewe unto his Majestie, and to the body of the land then assembled: Then may we think there is as little or lesse use of the inferiour Bishops at any time.

I grant it worthy to be wel conside­red and seriously thought upon. But whiles it is in minde I pray you tell me, who penned the second Petition that you shewed me? For you named the authour of the first, but not of the latter.

That was by one yet living, who knowes nothing of my purpose in all this bu­sines, nor what I am, nor how I came by the copie, neyther will I make knowne his name without his knowledge and consent: Therfore speake no more of that matter.

Yet you may tell me whether ever they were put up according to the direction or no [...]

I would if I could; but I think rather that they were not: And otherwise the sinne of the Land was the greater that did them no good upon so weighty, so earnest, and so christian a suite; but left them under the tyranny of such bitter Bishops, of whom they are caused so much to complaine. If they were not delivered, there is the more need to [Page] have them published, that such whose hearts God shall any way touch thereby, may make a holy use thereof, to his glory, the good of their own soules, the staying of Gods wrathful judgments from their nation, and for benefite to Gods people for tyme to come: So shall it fare better with the latter wlt­nesses of Christ, then it did with the former, that stood forth in the forefront of the battel against the Beast: Which warre they waged with the losse of their lives: but happy they in the life to come. For blessed are the dead that die in the Lord, even so saith the Spirite. For they rest from their labours, and their works follow them.

Were ever any of them put to death?

Yea, and that I caused to appeare before in part. Their Petitions also which I shewed you, do manifest their hard intreaty sundry wayes, and how that many of them through the envie of the Pre­lates, haue been made to end their dayes in loath­some prisons. And besides that, six of them were executed unto the death, who sealed up their testi­mony with their bloud; and most chearefully left this world, to goe unto Christ their Redeemer.

The 6. executed were these.

Mr Barrowe and Mr Greenwood, at Tyburne. Mr Iohn Penrie, at Thomas a Waterings by Londō. Mr William Dennys, at Thetford in Norffolk. And two others, Coppin and Elias, at S. Edmunds

Bury in Suffolk. And thus severall places of the land, are sta [...]ed w [...]h the bloud of Gods Saints, [Page] whose death is precious in his eyes, Ps. 116.15. King Saul, who slew the Gibeonites, had a better colour for that his fact; then can be set upon the killing of these Christians. For they were of the remnant of the Amorites, whom he might lawfully haue de­stroyed, yet when peace was made with them wher­by the Lord gave them life; Saul greatly sinned in putting them to death. And for this, the Lord brought famine upon the land in the dayes of Da­vid. Wherupon that righteous King sayd unto them that remayned, What shall I doe for you, and wherwith shall I make the atonement, that ye may blesse the inheritance of the Lord? To whom they answered; We will have no silver nor golde of Saul nor of his house, ney­ther for us shalt thou kill any man in Israel. And he sayd, what ye shall say that will I doe for you. Then they an­swered the King, The man that consumed us, and that imagined evill against us, so that we are destroyed from re­mayning in any coast of Israel, let seven men of his sonns be delivered unto us and we will hang them up unto the Lord, in Gibeah of Saul, the Lords chosen. And the King sayd, I will give them, &c. 2 Sam. 21. The dayes may come that God may also stirre up this or some o­ther Prince like David, to call into question the murdering (not of the remnant of the Amorites, but) of the homeborne subjects of our own land, who deserved to live, rather then the prelates themseves that caused them to die. But when justice by man, or judgment from God doe take place, these blou­dy men will feele the reward of their iniquitie. For [Page] Haman was not more enviously bent against the Iewes, for the rooting out of them, then our Ha­man-like Bishops have ben for the destoying of these whom they raile against as Puritans, Brownists, Sectaries, schismatiques, and what not? Thus abu­sing not onely those who separate from their Anti­christian jurisdiction, adulterate ministerie, & false worship, with their government ecclesiasticall; but some such also as stand unseparated from the same, who onely agree in judgement with the former. But as I have put you in mind of the famine which God brought upon Israel in the dayes of David for that bloudy sin done against the Gibeonites in the dayes of Saul; so you may remember and should not forget, that in our land, God brought a great pestilence in the daies of King Iames, so as there died in one citie London, above 3300. in one week: besides those that died in other cities and townes of the same plague. And who knoweth not but that it might be for that bloudy sin against the foresayd Christians, thorow the instigation of the Prelates, who by their murders made these to be martyrs, in the dayes of Q. Eliz. who was of her selfe a most worthy Princesse. God give men wisedome and grace to consider rightly of all thinges, and so of these two thus compared togither.

But would you wish the like reward to our Bishops, that came upon Sauls bloudy house?

No verily. But if I knew it to be the will of God I would. For we are taught to pray that his [Page] will may be done. Mat. 6. And if some of the [...] might be so served by the command of their Kings and Princes, it would make the rest prove mor [...] righteous, and lesse hurtfull, then they have beene, or yet are. But I wish with my heart their true re­pentance that they may escape the judgement of God, & finde mercie with men; learning by this and other examples in the scriptures, to be weaned frō their wickednes. But if ever any King or Queene doe follow the footing of David, for the executing of wrath upon them; or if ever they do fall into the hands of such Lord Tyrants as themselves, then let them acknowledge Gods justice, as did their fore-runner, who sayd, as I haue done, so God hath rewarded me. Iudg. 1.5. But to passe from this, & returne to our former speech about idolatrous li­vings, wherein (while I think on it) let me knowe your minde, whether you haue not by our confer­ence, or by the Platforme, or both, perceived that the English Bell had but a bad sound which would call men from honouring God, & that noble King Henry, for his heroicall acts against Babell, in the overthrow of her buildings, and inriching the cō ­mon wealth with the spoiles.

I am very well satisfied, and I thank you for your paines and love, in applying your selfe to my capacity, making me to know so many need­full things in such ample measure; that though our sinful estate is discovered to be such in England, as giveth just cause of sorrow: yet my heart againe re­joyceth [Page] that I see the way how to shun the danger of it.

That is wel for you, and I wish the like good unto the whole nation of the English. But what say you to those exploits of King Henry the 8? For me thinks they made greatly against the beast, false prophet, and his marked souldiers, the mar­chants of his Babylonist wares, who were by this meanes put in doubt that their trade would decay and come to an overthrow. And if Princes in all do­minions would now doe the like against the re­mainders of those places & offices, the utter down­fall of that kingdome of Antichrist would sudden­ly follow, to the high honour of God, and gladnes of heart to all his people, which should with due regard behold the fulfilling of the prophesies fore­telling such a work.

As one trueth leades unto an other; so by degrees you haue brought me to be of your mind in this point, like as in others. But wherefore are the chiefe defēders of this cause called Brownists?

Because one Mr Brown minister at Achurch heretofore professed their cause, pubished it in printe, and for a tyme continued the practise of it, till the feare of persecutiō, & love of this world like Demas, or of ease like Isacar, made him to turne his back upon it. And yet (I think if he were asked) his conscience wil not suffer his tongue to say, that it is not the trueth: although he hath left the reliefe of Sion, to live upon the spoiles of Babylon.

Were there none that did write for [Page] [...]

Yes verily. The Prophets, Apostles, and Evangelists haue in their authentick writings layd downe the ground [...]herof, and upon that ground is all their buiding reared up, and surely setled. Moreover, many of the Martyrs both former and latter haue mainteyned it, as is to be seen in the Acts and Monuments of the Church. Also, in the dayes of Queen Elizabeth, there was a separated Church, wherof Mr Fitz. was Pastor that professed and practised that cause before Mr Browne wrote for it. But he being one of the first writers in her Majesties reigne, therfore those that followed him, (or Christ rather, thorow his means, directing them by Gods word,) were called Brownists, as if they had been baptised into his name: Which were fals­hood to think, & blasphemie to speake.

The name makes them very odious to others, and to say the trueth, it caused me to carry some prejudice against them, to the forestal­ling of my judgement in the things they holde.

There are too many that doe so: But let not the name offend you or any; for ther was never any trueth brought to light, but Satan through his notable craft and cunning, hath caused some to paint it out after the names of men, that it might seem base and contemptible in the eyes of all, and to be [...]eceived of none. Hereupon haue Christians been called Hussites, Hugonotes, Lutherans, Zuingli­aus, Calvinists, Puritans, Brownists, and the like. But [Page] there could be no name more odious then was gi­ven to our Maister Christ himself, vvhom the vvic­ked called Belzebub, and his people must (in their measure) be partaker of his reproch. Let none ther­fore seeke to haue a good name by doing any evill thing; nor yet for avoiding a bad name, neglect any good that God requires at our hands; neither let a­ny man mesure any truth by the face that foes doe set upon it.

I perceive by your plea, that if these men had their right, they should be acknovvledged for true Christians, and not to be calumniated by the name of Brovvnists.

Your perceiving then is good, & your vvords are just and right; for so they ought to be e­steemed.

But vvhy then doe you so often call them so your selfe?

For distinction sake onely, but not at all in reproch: And if you could alvvayes understand me vvhom I meane, vvhen I call them Christians, then vvould I give them no other name.

You haue shevved me that many of those people vvere imprisoned; some brought there to their end; others executed by death: and novv I aske, vvhether any haue been banished?

Ye sundry tymes. And once in my ovvne sight and hearing at the Sessions in London, foure of them vvere enforced to abjure the land, and in what sort and manner, it may appeare by a vvriting [Page] that seemes then to be taken by some that were be­holders thereof, and affected therewith. Which writing was this.

[Page]ANd was not this a lamentable case Desiderius, that in the daies of the gospell, men should be thus entreated for the gospels sake, and for resistance of the ordinances of Antichrist?

Yes doubtlesse, if it were so.

Were so! Yes upon the adventure of my best limme, or life it selfe, it was so. And for those things wherein they differ from the opinions and practises in our Church of England, I never savve any trueth more cleare in all my life. As you also may easily perceive, if you scan the difference from point to point by the scriptures. And there is no trueth in England but they hold the same: dis­senting onely from them wherein they dissent from the word of GOD ALMIGHTY, which ought to be followed in every jote & tittle thereof.

Now by the Memorandum that I shewed you, I remember a saying in the Preface of their Con­fession of faith at their first publishing of it, which sayd, They hoped God would raise up another Iohn Fox to compile togither the latter Martyrs and Witnesses of our Lo: Iesus in these our dayes. And it seemes that the work goes foreward, in that God stirreth up some to keep records of such thinges, for further use in tyme to come.

Now for the Statute above mentioned, I knowe it was intended against popish Recusants, and not against these. And (without all question) their in­juries haue been more then ynough, though Lawes were not wrested against them. And this wrong [Page] was the greater, considering their love and loyalty to Prince & Country: But their judges must come before the Iudge of all the world that wil doe right. In respect wherof I pray for them that their case may be found cleare, through repentance, which is the right way thereunto, if it be done in time. And for all the Saintes here combating under the banner of the great Captaine of the Lords Host, that is, Iesus Christ, it behoveth them in patience to possesse their soules, & looke for their rest when the Lord commeth, who will wipe all teares from their eyes, & give them an inheritance everlasting, immortal, which fadeth not away, reserved in the heavens for them. Which shalbe enjoyed, when o­thers on the left hand, shall both heare a contrary sentence, and receive a worse reward. But as Abigail the wife of Nabal is praised, in that she used such wise and good meanes to prevent and stay David from bringing that evill which he inten­ded against Nabal and all his house, for his chur­lish, reprochful, and evill answer; so much more shal it be a praise-worthy work, & special part of good seruice & durie, in any that shall perswade & with­draw the Magistrates and people, from bringing a­ny evill upon the servants of God, with­out a cause. For as the Psalmist sayth, what hath the righteous done? To which every good Christian may answer, They haue surely done that which deserves praise, and not punishment; not imprisonment, reproches, confiscatiō of goods, banishment, untimely death, or any the like evill intreaty.

They may so answer, and that truely: but the world vvill not receive it. And now I pray you tell me, What difference doe you put between those people called Brownists, and our sincerest and best professors of the Gospel called Puritans?

The difference is layd downe in few words, The former doe both hold and pra­ctise the truth, and separate themselves from the contrarie. The latter haue the trueth in speculation onely, and either dare not or at least doe not prac­tise it. Neither dare or doe they leave off all the unrighteous ordinances of Antichrist, but daily do bend and stoupe unto many of them. And for what cause, others may well conjencture: but their owne hearts can best tell it to themselves.

But those Christians called Brownists, are at great difference among themselves. For some holdes private communion, others of them will at no hand allow it. And so there ariseth ill will, with decrease of love in one towards another. But I pray you which of those persons or opinions doe you like best?

For their opinion, I would haue my judgement spared at this time: Onely this I say, that their difference is not such as ought to make any division between them: or to breake off the cō ­munion and fellowship which they had before. And if any doe, it is (doubtlesse) the fault of those that doe it. They haue need therefore to take heed of prejudice and preposterous zeale, which else will be [Page] as a mother & nourse to breed and bring up that wicked weed Envie, a capitall vice, in sted of Chri­stian Love, a holy vertue. Be they then exhorted to shew forth the fruites of Christian moderation, bearing with, and supporting one another; pray­ing with and for one another; enterteyning holy peace between themselves, and with the Lord; set­ting against the sinnes in themselves, rather then that difference in their brethren; so shall they the better carry forth their good cause against their envious Opposites. For while they combine togi­ther among themselves, they shall be able to push, and at last to overthrowe the Antichristian King­dome and Hierarchy, against which they joyntly beare witnes. And thus shall they be truely zealous. As for their persons, there is neither of them doe lose one jote of my love, if they continue their love to the Lord, and his commandements, walking faithfully according to that which he giveth them to see and knowe by his word, both in holynes to himselfe, righteousnes towards men, and sobriety in themselves, with abstinence from worldly lusts. And if they alike thus walk, my love is alike unto them.

Some doe object against them their manner of receiving the Lords supper, as being rude, unreverent, malepert, and too too presum­ptuous; sitting upon their seates, as if they were Christs Camerades: whereas for more reverence they ought to take it kneeling.

This is no more against the former cal­led Brownists, then it is against the latter called Pu­ritans, even the best and sincerest of them: For they likewise so hold, that it ought not to be takē kneel­ing▪ but sitting: and eyther doe or faine would so practise, if they could in safetie, or durst indure the trouble following after it. But for the point it selfe, How doe those objecters prove, that such manner of receiving, is presumptuous &c? But are not they presumptuous rather that shal make them selves wiser then Christ, and give lawes in his king­dome or Church, which himself (the onely Law gi­ver) hath not given? Do they think that their good intents will carry out any thing in Gods worship, which hath not warrant in his word? If that were so, then had not Vzzah been slaine, for staying the Ark of God from shaking; 2 Sam. 6.6.7. Neyther should King Saul haue been rejected for saving alive the fat cattel of Amalek, to offer in sacrifice to God. 1. Sam. 15. But the point being sufficiently cleared by sundry writers, I referre you to them. And I, what should I need to say more but this, that [...]ee must in all thinges looke unto the first institution, as our Lord Iesus himself also did, when men spake unto him of putting away their wives, who told thē that Moses for the hardnes of their heartes suffered it; but from the beginning it was not so. And in like manner, to such as plead for kneeling at the receiving of the Lords supper, we may answer, that for want of love to the Lord and his trueth, it hath [Page] pleased him to give them over to hardnes of heart & strong delusions. And as the Papists those grosse idolaters, receiving the signes of Christs body and bloud, to wit, bread and wine, thinking it to be the very body and bloud it selfe, contrary to their own senses; they doe for more reverence to it, kneel before it, and worship it as their God and Maker: even so our formal Protestants at the celebration of the Lords supper do likewise kneele; imitating ther­in those idolaters, and so nourishing that popish er­rour of errours. But from the beginning it was not so. For at the first institutiō, it was received as they sate at the Table; But we can no where finde in all the scriptures, that ever they received it kneeling; or that ever true Christians beleeved those holy signes were transubstantiated into the body and bloud of Christ as the Papists falsely teach▪ Therefore as well that opinion, as their and the Protestants practise, is highly sinfull, and for ever ought to be shunned. Both because God never required such a beleefe, nor appointed such a gesture in the act of communion, as they haue taken up to themselves, from the brain of mans mere invention. Wee are therfore to take heed what examples we follow. Dinah the daugh­ter of Iakob, going forth to see the daughters of the countrey where they came, was defiled bodily: but some of our Protestants looking forth to see after what fashion the Papists served God before them, haue been defiled spiritually. Wheras they should haue remembred and observed, that which is writ­ten [Page] for our learning, (in Levit. 18.3.4.) and com­manded Israel of old, saying; After the doings of the Land of Egypt wherein ye dwelt shall ye not doe: And af­ter the manner of the land of Canaan whither I will bring you, shall ye not doe, neyther walk in their ordinances, But doe after my iudgementes, and keep mine ordinances to walk therein: &c.

It is a good instruction: And being well followed, it will prevent infinite errours and other abominations. But how doe you manifest that the Papists doe worship the signes of Christs body and bloud, as the very body and bloud it self, and that contrarie to their own senses, as you sayd. For if that be true, they are most vile idolaters in­deed.

So they are. For when they receive the bread, they see it, feele it, smell it and tast it to be bread, yet they beleeve in the heart & say with the mouth, that it is body, even the same that was cru­cified on the crosse; quite contrary to their owne senses of seeing, feeling, smelling and tasting, as I sayd before. And that bread, which their own sense tells them, is no other creature but bread, doe they adore and worship as the Creator, as God, & as Christ. And so in like maner beleive they the wine to be the very bloud of God Christ, which was shed for the redemption of the Church. Which horri­ble idolatrie of theirs is as grosse, as to worship & beleeve in a molten or carved image, in sted of the true God. And both these sorts of idolatrie, are not [Page] onely against the second commandement, but also against the first. Thus may you perceive that the Papists are deluded with a lye extraordinary; bele­ving the lying miracle of transubstantiation. Wher­as in all true miracles wrought by Christ and his A­postles, never any were taught to beleeve any thing contrary to their owne sight, and their other senses; but these seduced soules are miserably misled that way. And why? even because their lying prophets doe so beleeve and teach. But is it not as strange that they will haue so many Christs at one and the same time? For after the words of consecration are used, those signes are transubstantiated into the ve­ry body and bloud of Christ (by their opinion) & becommeth the whole Christ: so that if they doe the like in an hundred thousand places at once, they haue then (if you will beleeve them) so many CHRISTS. And they being all eaten up in one day, yet they can make as many moe in another: and that as often as they consecrate their bread to such an end or use. And is not this a wonderfull miracle, and these marvelous men, thas can by the words of their mouthes effect such strange things? Or rather are not these monsters among men, to beleeve such strange and strong delusions? But so shall it fare with those that haue not the love of the trueth. 2. Thes [...]. And now let us leave them to their wandrings, seing they are so bewitched, that no­thing which man can doe, is able to drawe them from their delusions into the right way and trueth of the gospel [...]word Christ.

The more is the pitie. For as we ar deb­ters unto all; so I would we could doe them good.

They haue the letter of the scripture in that point before spoken of. For Christ saith in Ioh. 6. This is my body: But they haue not the mea­ning at all. Neyther doe they consider that all sa­cramentall signes haue the name of the thing signi­fied. As for example: The tree of life, and the eat­ing therof, was a sacramentall signe to them that should live in obedience to God, that they should haue life. The tree of knowledge of good and evil, had the name of that which they should (by lamentable experience) finde, if they (contrarie to Gods cōmandement) should eat thereof. The Altar, which Iakob builded unto God, he called by the name of the Mighty God of Israel. Not that it was so indeed: But that it was a signe & remembrance, of that God who had appeared unto him, for his helpe; and had mightilie delivered him from the furious hands of his brother Esau. And other the like examples are in the scriptures. Even so Christ sayth of the elemental signes of bread and wine, in the Lords supper: Take eate, &c. This is my body▪ this is my bloud, &c. Not that they are so in deed, for when he spake those words his blessed body was at the table among his disciples, and not in the bread; as they plainely sawe with their eyes, and did know with understanding: But they were true signes of his body and bloud, and as verily as they received them; so certainly should every true beleever receive [Page] Christ and all his merites, to be fully theirs by faith. And the papists that worship these signes as the ve­ry body and blould of Christ, (because they were in mysterie so called;) If they had lived in the dayes of Iakob, they might as wel, and it is like they would, haue worshiped that Altar, as the Mighty God, be­cause it was in mysterie (that is, in signe and signi­fication) so called. But as therein they should haue been notable idolaters, so are they in worshiping a peece of bread which they eat, as God the Creator both of it & them. And seing they think that to be their God, if now they would see their foolishnes by a fewe wordes. I wish them to consider what be­comes of it in short space after they haue eaten it, & so they shal see that if ever it was a God, it soon va­nisheth away and becommeth none, which is con­trary to the nature of the true God, who is eternal, immortal, unchangeable, &c. but the bread eaten, goeth into the belly, and is caried out into the draught, as Christ speaketh. So that this their God Bread, is more base then the God Bell, or any of the the Gods of the heathens. And are not these grosse idolaters? Yea, this their absurd foolishnes, was a stumbling block unto Averois, of whō I haue read, that he sayd; Because the Christians eat that God which they worship, my soule shall be with the Philosophers.

Wherfore, I would they might learne, that as the outward signes of bread and wine, being recei­ved into the belly, turneth unto the nourishment of the body, so Christ being received into the soule by [Page] faith, is the true nourishment therof, and salvation of the whole man. For he hath redeemed us from death & destructiō, iustified us in the sight of God, and procured us life with him. All which we ap­prehend thorow faith. But in this trueth I know you are already grounded, so as I need not speak further for your instruction; and as for them, should I speak, should I write, should I doe all I can, it will not profite them. For (without the extra­ordinary work of God,) they must still beleeve as their church beleeves. For that cannot erre, as they fondly suppose. So that it may hold what it vvill and they must hold the same, vvithout all triall or mistrust. Thus by one error, they are fast fettered in many; & must be left to their blind guides, till they fall togither into the ditch. For other guides they will not haue. Therfore I shall now spare a labour, and speake no further of this point.

Thus brought I you out of the way wherin you were shewing the unlawfulnes of kneel­ing in the sacramēt. Yet vvas it not vvithout fruit, for even by that vvhich you haue sayd, men may playnely see, that vvee ought not to conceite or imitate those supersticious, idolatrous, and absurd Papists, vvho are so addicted to their ovvne vvayes, and are like those that cried, Great is Diana of the E­phesians. Act. 19.28. And great vvith these, is their goddesse the false church.

But vvhat say you of the Christians whose cause I pleaded for, that addict themselves to [Page] the wayes and word of God.

I freely acknowledge that such ought to be lovingly respected. And you haue brought me to like better of them then ever I did; but espetial­ly that you so well cleared their doctrine of faith to be sound, and their separation to be but from sin, and such outward orders and ordinances, that are unsound and sinfull: which they therefore forsake, that they might doe the will of God according to his written word; the light of our feet and lanterne to all our pathes.

You haue sayd ynough to cleare them both from heresie and schisme; for he is no heretique that is sound in the faith. And he is no schismatique that separates onely from disorder & sin. For we ought not to communicate in sin either with men or Angels.

And that is the ground whereupon I my selfe neyther doe nor dare communicate in the Church of England with that sinful ordinance of man the service book, or book of cōmon prayer.

If you professe so much in England by your practise, as you haue here confessed with your mouth, you may happen to be called a Brown­ist, if not to tast of other hard intreaty.

Yet the truth is the truth. Which as it ap­peareth unto me, so stand I bound to obey unto it. But I pray you why doe the foresayd people solem­nize mariage in civil Assemblies or dwellings?

Because it is a civil action, and ought [Page] civilly to be performed, according to the true na­ture of it.

Why, it is the judgment almost of all men to haue it done in the Church by a Minister. And (in England) it is a common received custome to haue it so performed.

I wish rather that for the proofe of it you could haue sayd, Thus saith the Lord. And then to haue shewed the chapter and verse where it is so sayd. But you haue done nothing lesse, neither in deed it is impossible to be done: there being no such thing once named or implied in all the scrip­ture. And consequently, the ground whereon you stand is not rocky and firme, but unsure and sandy, which shall wash away with the raine, & every house built upon such a foundation, when the flouds come and the windes blowe, shall certainly fall, as we may learne both by Christs own doctrine in the Gospell, and reason it selfe doth shewe the same. And if an Argument drawen from a common cus­tome be good, then if it be a common custome to haue the Lords holy Sabbaths profaned with Beare and Bull baiting, with dicing and carding, with May games and morrice dance, with laciviousnes and luxurie, with rifling or revelling, &c. then all is good, and all may be done, sane conscientia: But I hope that both you and every childe of God true­ly sanctified, doe defie and abhorre all such things, not onely on the Sabbath dayes, but every day of the week, and of their whole life.

[Page]And is it not a common received custome in England, to worship God by their book of cōmon prayer in English, as the Papists by their Massebook in Latin, and by their Images, beades, crucifixes, and other the like; in stead of true invocation upon the Name of God by the work of his Spirite: But being all vvithout and against the vvarrant of the vvord of God, your self dare neyther practise nor approve them. And vvhy then doe you not minde the like in other things no less unvvarrantable. As is the solemnization of mariage ecclesiastically, and other such like. Many abominations might be pleaded for by common custome, and multitude of men in that minde. But lay aside these sandy grounds, and heare the vvords of the Lavve, Thou shalt not follow a multitude to doe evill, neyther agree in a controversie to decline after many and overthrow the truth. Exod. 23.2.

Beleeve it for truth, That

All Church actions, are layd dovvne in the scrip­tures, vvhich is the rule of truth: But in them vve finde no mention of mariage to be a Church acti­on: Therefore it ought not to be so made or used.

And againe, All the dueties of the Ministerie are expressed in the scriptures: But in them there is no more mention or vvarrant for the ministers solem­nizing of mariages, to the living, then is for their burying of the dead, vvhich is just none at all. Er­go, they are both unlavvfull, and ought not to be done.

[Page]And where you affirme the contrary, saying, it ought to be done by a Minister; doe you meane a minister indefinitely, without any respect, whether he be true or false?

No, But I meane a true Minister one­ly. For no true Christian ought to goe to false mi­nister for any such end.

Your reason is right and good: But then the Ministers of England haue no right in that work, they being in respect of their offices, not true but false Ministers, and so proved.

But in respect of their guiftes they may be sayd to be the Ministers of Christ. For ma­ny of them haue excellent giftes.

So had Balaam likewise, who yet was but a false Minister and a Southsayer. And so haue many Lawyers & others in our Land, if they would and might be suffred to exercise their gifts, who yet are no Ministers at all. Gifts then doe help to make men fit for a Ministerie, but doe not make them mi­nisters, much lesse true Ministers. For every true Minister must not onely be qualified with gifts fit­ting for the same: But must also be lawfully called thereunto. Even as, every civil Magistrate & Iudge, must not onely be qualified with guifts fitt for the Magistracie and Iudgeship which he exerciseth, but must also be lawfully called thereunto, and rightly put into the possession thereof. But where you say, many of the Ministers of England haue great gifts, and therupon conclude them to be true Ministers, [Page] you therein condemne the dumbe ministerie that doe but read their stervice onely, and haue no gifts for praying nor preaching.

It is no matter. Let them goe unde­fended. For I hold them false Ministers, and med­dle not with them.

Yet they haue the same Ministerie with those that haue the greatest guiftes. So that if the one be false, the other is so likewise. Again, if men haue neuer so good gifts, and be called unto a false ministerie, they are (notwithstanding their giftes) false ministers. But now to returne to our former point, and apply this to the purpose. Ma­riage is the ordinance of God; but a false ministery is the ordinance of the Divil. And (sayth the Apo­stle) I would not that ye should haue fellowship with the Divils. 1. Cor. 10.20. These can haue no more com­munion togither then Light with Darknes, Christ with Beleal, or the Beleever with the Infidel. All which is condemned, 2 Cor. 6.

Moreover, If you would haue no mariages right and lawfull, unlesse they be solemnized by a true Minister; then you must eyther make the popish mi­n [...]sterie in Q. Maries dayes to be true Ministers, or else all that were then so maried, to be unlawfull mariages, and the children that were begotten of such parents to be illigitimate, that is to say bas­tards. But were it not a fowle extremitie to affirme eyther of these? Doubtlesse a Mariner that should he so absurd in sayling, would soon run his ship up­on [Page] the sands, or break it asunder against the rocks.

Againe, If mariages be onely lawful that are made up in a Church by a Minister; then whereso­ever there is not a Church and Ministerie, there can be no lawful mariage. But the Apostle teacheth o­therwise and saith, that mariage is honourable a­mong all, Heb. 13. And therfore not onely where there is a Church and Ministerie, but also where there is none. So that mariage is Gods ordinance, & lawful to be performed even among the Pagans.

Furthermore, If mariage be onely right & law­ful, when and where it is done in a Church by the Minister▪ then are all mariages to be condemned that haue been made up in Christian Countreyes civilly before the Magistrates. But that they may not be. For the word of God gives approbation to such mariages, in the mariage of Boaz & Ruth, wherof we read, Ruth 4.9.10.11.12. And on the contrary, shew you if you can, any one place in all the holy scripture, that approveth of mariage to be eyther a sacrament, as the blinde Papists would haue it; or a Church action, for the minister to per­forme; as you and our Protestants doe plead. By which plea & practise you notably nourish the old popish errour, that Mariage is a Sacrament.

I will reason no further in this matter. For I perceive that both scripture and reason is a­gainst me. And when I finde it so, down goes the bucklers. For I love not to be a proctor in a bad cause.

It goes wel where there is so good a conscence. (But it is not so in the Spirituall Courts, which are as worthy to goe downe as your bucklers.) And had you held out longer, you had heard more. But here is this briefe wri­ting concerning the point, which in likelihood was written by some of that people of the right Christi­an prosession; though I neither know how, where, nor when I came by it. But a special end of it might be in the providence of God for your good.

Let him that readeth consider.

THat which the word of God doth approve & incō ­mend unto us to be good and lawfull, that ought all to reverence and obey: Yea though the lawes decrees & customes of men were to the contrary: Much more where any thing is done which both the law of God, & law of man doth allow to be lawfull, none can disallow or speak evill of it, except they be such as eyther in bad conscience or great ignorance doe open their mouthes both against heaven and earth. Which fearefull sin, the Lord keepe all his servants from.

Now to apply this to a question objected concerning mariage, I holde and affirme as followeth.

Viz. That where a man and a woman (that may mary together by the word of God) doe take one an other for husband and wife, by words of the present tyme, before lawfull witnesses, using prayer to God to blesse them therein, that (I say) is lawful mariage, and allowed both by the word of God and law of man.

1. The Word of God. By the word of God, as may be seene in these scriptures, Gen. 2.22.23.24. Ruth 2.9.10.11.12. Math. Prov. 2.17. Rom. 7.3. Gen. 29.21.22.23. compared with 1 Tim. 4.5.

[Page]Then also by the law of man, and that both by the cō ­mon law of this land, and by the civil law also, and even the canon law it selfe.

(2. The law of this land.) For the common law of this land, see the Statute of 32. Henr. 8. chap. 38. revived in the 1. of Q. Eliz. directly and of purpose alloweth and ratifieth all mariages done according to the word of God. The words of the Statute are these,

Wheras heretofore the Bishop of Rome hath alwayes intangled and troubled the mindes of people against the regal power of this Realm of England, and also much un­quieted the subjects of the same, by his usurped power in them, as by making that unlawfull, which by Gods word is lawfull, both in mariages and other things, &c. And wheras also other prohibitiōs then Gods law admitteth, much more debate and suite of law, with wrongfull vex­ation of the innocent party hath bene procured, and ma­ny just mariages brought in doubt, and danger of undoo­ing, and also many times undone, and lawfull heires dis­inherited, wherof there had never else (but for that usur­pation) been moved any question, since freedome in thē was given us by the law, which ought to be most sure & certaine, &c. Be it therefore enacted that no re [...]ervati­on or prohibition Gods law excepted, shall trouble or impeach any mariages without the Leviticall degrees, & that no person of what estate degree or condition soever hee or shee be, shalbe admitted within any of the spiri­tuall Courts, within this Realme, to any proces plea or allegation contrary to this foresayd Act.

Againe in Anno 25. Henr. 8. ch. 22. the Satute hath these words as followeth,

The Parliaments, Convocations, and Vniversities agreed, that even in matters of mariage, no man of what estate degree or condition soever, hath any power to dis­pence with Gods lawes.

[Page](3. Book of cōmon prayer.) Whereto also the Book of Common prayer agreeth, which in expresse termes avoweth their matrimony to be lawful who are cou­pled togither so as Gods word doth allowe, and declareth moreover, that the very thing which ma­keth mariage, is the covenant betwixt the parties them­selves, when they take one another for man and wife, by words of the present time: as may be seen in the Booke of Common prayer, in the charge given to the parties, & the parties speeches one to an other.

(4. Civil law.) Next as touching the Civil Lavv, it defi­neth that to be lavvful mariage, vvhen the parties that may mary togither and are of yeares doe both of them consent in taking each other for man and vvife, if they be at their ovvne government, or if they haue parents, vvith their consent. For this see Vspian. tit. 5.1. Iustinian institut. lib. 1. tit. 9.1. et tit. 10. Gaij institut. lib. 1. tit. 4.

(5. Canon law.) Lastly touching the Canon lavve, it also defineth and declareth, that the onely thing vvhich maketh the mariage is the mutuall vvilling consent of the parties, declared by vvordes or signes of the present tyme. See for this Can. Sufficiat 27. [...].2. et Titus de spous.

But thus as aforesaid vvere he and his vvife maried togither: that is, being such as might marie by the vvord of God, they took one an other for husband & vvife, by vvords of the present time before lavvfull vvitnesses, ha­ving prayer also made unto God to blesse them therein.

This writing is worthy to be printed with the rest, for although it be briefe, yet (in my opinion) it i [...] [...]i [...]ie, and to the purpose.

And I wish that by this occasion, the [...] would be stirred up to publish a larger work of the same Argument, which I certainely heare they haue amongst them. For I doubt not but it would shew you a better light, then yet hath or can shine from me in whom remaineth overmuch darknes.

It is like they wil doe it at your moti­on, and be otherwise thankfull unto you for defen­ding them and their cause.

The Apostle sayth, (1. Ioh. 5.1.) Every one that loveth him which begate, loveth him also which is be­gotten of him. So that I haue done but a duety and fruite of Love, in defending of them and their good cause, both which are of God: and if it deserve any thanks let them give it to him, who is worthy of all praise. As for me, they shal never know who I am if I can possibly keepe it from them.

But I pray you where had you the other writing called A memorandum?

In the house of one that keepes Re­cord of many things. Where it sufficed me to get a copie, which made me so much the ritcher, and the good man of the house was not the poorer.

We must now come to a conclusion, for other important affaires doe call me from these businesses, which haue been very profitable to mee, & I praye put all to the printing, that our friends and Countrey may haue the benefite. For to them I desire all good may come. But I haue heard here is much popery in this place, which as it is no friend [Page] to our opinions; so I wish that it hinder not the printing of these pointes.

Wee will put it to the triall. But I wish that the Printers can read our English copies.

Oh that they might lively come forth to make their appearance powerfull at the time of every Parliament, til some good doe come thereof.

The Almighty can effect what it pleaseth him, when and by what meanes he will: But by that which I haue seen both in Court and Countrey, I haue (for the tyme present) little hope in man. Yet I am assured that the time shall come wherein God will honour some with the work of that good King Iosias, in a larger measure for reformation then ever yet was seen in England. And as any of these copies shall come into the hands of gratious persons, be they humbly intreated conscionably to consider of the matter, and accordingly labour to advance the glory of God, and to procure the good both of the King and Countrey, by effecting (through diligent suite, & holy endeavors) reformation in the things before treated on. Which so farre as time, place, and purse wil permit, shall be put to the Presse. And so because of your hast I cease.

Fare ye wel Monsieur Miles, Dieu vous garde [...]al, and a thowsands thanks for all you paines, &c.

Adieu Desiderius, and God direct you alwayes to desire the furtherance of his glory, and your owne faithfulnes, to your endlesse comfort, Amen▪