<1The preface to the crysten reader.>1 Our lorde sende vs nowe some yeres as plentuouse of good corne, as we haue hadde some yeres of late plentuouse of euyll bokes. For they haue growen so faste and sprongen vppe so thykke, full of pestylent errours and pernyciouse heresyes, that they haue enfected and kylled I fere me mo sely symple soules, then the famyne of the dere yeres haue destroyed bodyes. And surely no lytle cause there is to drede, that the great haboundaunce and plentye of the tone, is no lytle cause and occasyon of the great derth and scarcite of the tother. For syth that our lorde of his especyall prouydence, vseth temporally to punyshe the hole people for the synnys of some parte, to compell the good folke to forbere & abhorre the noughty, whereby they maye brynge them to amendement and auoyd them selfe the contagyon of theyr companye: wysdome were it for vs to perceyue, ys lyke as folke beginne now to delyte in fedyng theyr soules of the venemouse caryn of those poysened heresyes, of whyche maye well be veryfyed the wordes of holy wryt: deth is in the pot/ our lorde lykewyse agaynwarde to reuenge yt wythall, begynneth to wythdraw hys gracyouse hande from the rutes of the erth, mynyshynge the fertylyte both in corne and catell, and bryngynge all in derth myche more then men can remedy or ully fynde out the cause. And yet bysyde thys somwhere he sendeth warre, sykenesse, and mortalyte / to punyshe in the fleshe that dyouse and hatefull synne of the soule, that spoyleth the frute from all manner of vertues, I meane vnbylyefe, false fayth and infydelyte, nd to tell you all at ones in playne englyshe heresye. And I say that god nowe bygynneth. For I fere me surely that excepte folke begynne to reforme that fawte ys soner/ god shall not fayle in suche wyse to qo forwarde, that we shall well perceyue and fele by thencreace of our greyfe, that all this gere hytherto is but a begynning yet. The rophete Hely as it is wryten in the thyrde boke of kynges, for the infydelyte and ido- latry that then was vsed in Israell, by his hartye prayour made vnto god, kepte that whole cuntre from rayne by the space of.iii. yeres and a halfe/ not of euyll wyll or malyce, but of deuocyon and pytye/ by the payne & pynchynge of the bodyes, to compell men to remem- ber theyre [Aaiv] soules, whyche ellys were in parell of peryshynge by false idolatrye. Nowe all be yt that these bolde shamelesse heretyques, haue of longe whyle neyther letted nor ceaced, falsely to insymulate and accuse the chyrche of god/ callynge all good crysten people ido- latres for honourynge of sayntes and reuerent byhauour vsed at theyr images: yet that haue they done so farre agaynste theyr owne conscyence (by whyche them selfe well wote that the chirche vseth to sayntes and ymages none honour but ordinate/ not honouryng images but for the sayntes sake, nor sayntes but for ys sake of god/ & neyther image as saynte, nor saynt as god) & this knoweth I say Tyndale hym selfe so well, and thereby so farre hath rayled agaynste his owne conscyence/ that nowe at the laste in his answere to my boke, he retreateth so farre bakke, that he reuoketh almoste all that euer he sayde byfore/ & is fayne now to graunte that cristen men may haue images, & knele byfore them to/ as ye shall hereafter se when we shall come to the place. But we on the tother syde saye playnely vnto them, that the thynges wherwyth they corrupte the worlde, are of infydelyte and faythlesse idolatrye, the very moste cursed kynde. The chyefe euyll in an idole was, ys yt bare the name of god, eyther yt selfe or the deuyll that yt represented/ and beyng so reputed and wurshyped for god, robbed the reuerence and deuoute honour fro god. Now when Tyndale calleth his heresyes by the name of fayth, and maketh men serue the deuyll whyle they wene to serue god: what abomynable idolatrye is this? If yt be idolatry to put truste in ys deuyll, & serue the deuyll wyth fayth: yt is worse then idolatrye to make men wene they serue god wyth fayth whyle they dyspyte hym wyth a false bylyefe. And yf it be very infydelyte to do as the Turkes do, byd men byleue in Machometes alchoran: yt is more infydelyte to do as Tyndale hath done, purposely mysse translate Crystes holy gospell, to sette forth heresyes as euyll as the Alchorane. And yf it be idolatry to do as ys paynems dyd, make an idole god: yt muste nedes be myche worse idolatry to do as these heretykes do, that call god the cause of all euyll, and therby make god not a vayne idole but a very deuyll. [Aai] And what can be worse kynd of infydelyte, then to make bokes of heresyes, and call them the ryght fayth? And what more abomynable infydelyte, then to abuse the scryp- ture of god to the colour of theyr false bylyefe? And what can be a worse bylyefe, then to byleue that the sacra- mentes that god hath ordeyned by his holy spyryte, be but inuencyons of man, or as Tyndale sayth of confessyon, but inuencyon of the deuyll? And what can be worse bylyefe, then to byleue that goddes word is not to be byleued, but yf yt be put in wrytyng? Or what can be a worse bylyefe, then to byleue ys mennis good wurkes be they euer so well done, be yet nothyng worthe, nor the man neuer the better for them, nor no rewarde for them commyng towarde man in heuen? Or what can be a wurse bylyefe, then to byleue that a man doth wronge to pray for hys fathers soule? Or what can be a wurse bylyefe, then to byleue that a man may as sleyghtely regarde whytson sonday, as hokke monday / and as boldely eate fleshe on good frydaye, as on shroue tuysdaye? And what can be a wurse bylyefe, then to byleue ys none other synne can dampne a man, but onely lakke of bylyefe? And yf yt be idolatrye to do as the Paynems do, geue wurshyppe vnto an idole: how myche is yt wurse then idolatrye to do as Tyndale doth, forbed vs to geue wurshippe to the very bodye and blessed blood of god in the holy sacrament of the auter? These pestylent infydelytees, and these abominable kyndes of idolatryes/ farre excede and passe, and incomparably more offende the maieste of our lorde god, then all the settynge vppe of Beel, and Baal, and Belzabub, and all the deuyls in hell. Wherfore lyke as in ther places where these heresyes haue taken deper rote, & ben more sprede abrode/ god hath taken more depe and sore vengeaunce, not onely by derth and deth but also by batayle and sworde: so is yt to be fered that for the receypte of these pestylent bokes, our lorde sendeth vs some lakke of corne and catayle for a begynnynge/ and wyll not fayle but yf our faute be mended to sende vs as sore punishement as he hath sent all redy, into suche other places as wolde not be by lyke warnynge mended / accordynge as he sayth in the .xxvi. chapyter of Leuiticus, where he speketh in this wyse: lf ye wyll not geue eare [Aaiv] vnto me, nor fulfyll all my commaundementes but sette my lawes at naught, despyce my iudgementes, and leue those thynges vndone that are by me ordeyned, and breake my pacte and couenaunt: then wyll 1 agaynwarde do these thynges folowynge vnto you. 1 wyll hastely vysyte you wyth penury and brennynge hete or feuer, whych shall sore vexe and greue your eyes, and consume you euen to ys deth. Ouer thys ye shall sowe your sede in vayne/ for your ennemyes shall deuoure it. 1 shall also set my face agaynst you, and ye shall fall byfore your aduersaryes, and be made subiectes vnto them that hate you. Ye shall fle where no man chaseth you. And yf ye wyll not yet for all thys obaye me: 1 shall for your synnes adde & put to these plages seuenfolde more/ and 1 shall trede downe the pryde of your stobernes and so forth. And who doth more properly fall in the daunger of this com- mynacyon and threte, then they that dyspyse Crystes sacramentes, whyche are hys holy ordynaunces, and a great parte of Cristes new law and testament. And who shall lesse set by hys commaunde- mentes/ then they that vppon the bolde- nesse of onely fayth, set all good workes at nought, & lytell force the daunger of theyr euyll dedes, vppon the boldenesse that a bare fayth and sleyght repentaunce wythout shryfte or penaunce suffyseth/ and that no vow made to god can bynde a man to lyue chast, nor let a monke fro maryage/ all whyche thynges wyth many pestylent errours besyde, these abomynable bookes of Tyndale and hys felowes teche vs. Of these bokes of heresyes there be so many made within these few yeres, what by Luther hym selfe and by hys felowes, and after- warde by the new sectes sprongen out of his, whych lyke ye chyldren of vippara wold now gnaw out theyr mothers bely: that ys bare names of those bokes were almoste inough to make a boke/ & of euery sort of those bokes be some brought into thys realme and kepte in huker muker, by some shrewd maysters ys kepe them for no good. Besyde the bookes of latyn, french, and douch, in which there are of these euyll sectes an innumerable sorte: there are made in the englysshe tonge, Fyrst Tyndales new testament father of them all by reason of hys false translatyng. And after that the fyue bookes of Moyses translated by ys same man/ we nede not dowt in what maner, when we know [Aai] by what man and for what purpose. Then haue ye hys introduccyon into saynt Poules pystle, wyth hyche he introduceth and bryngeth hys readers in to a false nderstandynge of saynte Poule/ makynge them among many other heresyes byleue, that saynt Poule were in the mynde that onely fayth were alway suffycyent for saluacyon, and ys mennys good workes were nothynge worth, nor could no thanke deserue nor no reward in heuen, though they were wroughte in grace. And these thynges teacheth Tyndale as the mynde of saynt Poule/ where saynt Poule sayeth hym selfe that they whyche so mysse constre hym to the deprauynge of mennys good workes, be well worthye damnacyon. Then haue we by Tyndale the wykked mammona/ by whyche many a man hath ben bygyled and brought into many wykked here- syes, whyche thynge (sauynge that the deuyll is redy to putte out mennes yien that are contente wyllyngly to wax blynde) were ellys in good fayth to me no lytle wonder / for neuer was there made a more folyshe frantyque boke. Then haue we Tindales boke ofobedience/ whereby we be taught to dysobaye the doctryne of Crystes catholyque chyrch, and set his holy sacramentes at nought. Then haue we fro Tyndale the fyrste pystle of saynte Iohan in suche wyse- expowned, that I dare say that blessed apostle rather then his holy wordes were in suche a sense byleued of all Crysten people, hadde leuer his pystle hadde neuer ben put in wrytynge. Then haue we the supplycacyon of beggers, a pytuouse beggerly boke, wherin he wolde haue all the soules in purgatory begge all about for nought. Then haue we from George Iaye otherwyse called clerke, a goodly godly pystle / wherein he teacheth dyuerse other heresyes, but specyally that mennys vowes and promyses made of chastyte, be not lawfull nor can bynde no man in conscyence, but he may wedd when he wyll. And thys man consyderynge that when a man teacheth one thynge and doth hym selfe a nother, the people sette the lesse by his preachynge. deyer- myned therfore wyth hym self that he wolde of his preachynge, shew hym selfe ensample. And therfore beynge preste, he hath bygyled a woman and wedded her/ the pore woman I wene vnware that he ys [Aaiv] Preste. How be yt yf yt be not done all redy/ yt is well lykely now that but if god be her speciall guyde, he shall by laysore worke her and wynne her to his owne heresye. Then haue ye an exposycyon also vppon the.vii. chapyter of saynt Poules pystle to the Corinthyes / wgyche exposycyon in lykewyse prestes, freres, monkes, & nonnes be taught that euangelycall lyberty, that they may runne out a caterwawynge, and so wow and wedde and lawfully lyue in lechery. That worke hath no name of the maker, but some wene yt was frere Roy/ whych when he was fallen in heresy, then founde yt vnlawfull to lyue in chastyte, and ranne out of hys order, and hath synnes sought many a false vnlyefull way to lyue by/ wherin he made so many chaunges, that as Bayfeld a nother heretyque & late burned in smythfeld tolde vnto me/ he rnade a mete ende at laste, and was burned in Portyngale. Then haue we the examynacyon of Thorpe put forth as it is sayd by George Constantine (by whom there hath ben I wote well of ys sorte grete plentye sent into this realme). In that boke the heretyke yt made it as a communycacyon bytwene the bysshoppe and his chapellayrts and hym selfe/ maketh all the partyes speke as hym selfe lyketh/ & layeth nothyng spoken agaynst his heresyes, but such as hym self wolde seme solempnly to soyle. Whose boke when any good crysten man redeth, ys hath eyther lernynge or any naturall wytte/ shall not onely be well able to perceyue hym for a folysshe heretyke, & his argumentes easy to answere/ but shall also se ys he sheweth hym selfe a false lyar in hys rehersall of the mater/ wherin he maketh ye tother parte somtyme speke for hys commodyte, such maner thynges as no man wolde haue done that were not a very wylde gose. Then haue we Ionas made out by Tynda1e/ a boke ys who so delyte therin shall stande in pare11 yt Ionas was neuer so swalowed vppe wyth the whale, as by the delyte of that booke a mannes soule maye be so swalowed vppe by the deuyll, that he shall neuer haue the grace to gete out agayne. Then haue we by Tyndale also the answere to my dyaloge / wherof I shall nothynge now nede to saye bycause the confutacyon of that answere is the mater of my present booke. [Bbi] Then haue we also the boke of Fryth agaynste purgatorye / therrours of whyche boke I shall hereafter god wyllynge declare you. Then haue ye a boke of Luther translated into englyshe in the name of Bryghtwell, but as I am enformed the boke was translated by Fryth/ a boke of suche sorte as Tyndale neuer made a more folyshe, nor more full of false lyes. And surely Frythes prologe, yf yt be his as yt ys sayde/ ys ryght sutely and a very mete couer for suche a cuppe, as bryngeth the people a draught of dedely poysen. Then haue we the practyse of prelates/ wherin Tyndale had wente to haue made a specyall shewe of hys hygh worldely wytte/ and that men sholde haue sene therin that there were nothynge done amonge prynces, but that he was fully aduertysed of all ye secretes/ and that sofarreforth, that he knew the pryuy practyse made be- twene the kynges hyghnes and the late lorde cardynall, and the reuerende father Cuthbert then bishoppe of London, and me/ that yt was dyuysed wylyly, yt the cardynall sholde leue the chauncellour- shyppe to me and the byshopryche of Durham to my sayde lorde of London for a whyle, tyll he lyste hym selfe to take them both agayne. Was not this a wyly dryft trow you? whyche, whyle euery man well there was no man so madde to tell Tyndale, no man dowteth, but that Tyndale dyuysed yt of his owne imagynacyon/ and then nedeth no man to doute what maner a brayne Tyndale hath, that dremeth suche frantyque dryftes. Then haue we now come forth the boke of frere Barns somtyme doctour in Cambrydge/ whyche was for heresye byfore this tyme abiured, and is at this daye comen to the realme by saufe conducte, whyche at his humble suyte the kynges hyghnesse of his blessed dis- posycyon condescended to graunte hym/ to thende that yf there myght yet any sparke of grace be founden in hym, yt myghte be kepte, kyndeled, and encreaced, rather then the man to be caste away. Whyche manner of crysten zele and pryncely benygnyte hys grace hadde byfore vsed, both to Rycharde Bayfeld and George Constantine, whych came ouer hyther wythout saufe conducte, vppon the onely truste of his gracyouse forgyuenesse, and had yt. And theruppon to by and by both twayne deceyptefully dyd abuse his goodnesse, & brought in agayn mo of Tyndales bokes and false heresyes a freshe/ whereof [Bbiv] as god hath of his iustyce synnys requytte the tone, so mote his mercy by grace amende the tother. But to speke of frere Barrn booke, surely of all theyr bookes that yet came abrode in englysshe (of all whych was neuer one wyse nor good) was neuer none yet so bad, so folysshe, nor so false as hys, as it hath synnes hys coinynge ben playnely proued in hys face/ and that in such wyse, that when the bokes that he cyteth and alledgeth in hys booke were brought forth before hym, and hys ignoraunce shewed hym, hym selfe dyd in dyucrse thynges confesse hys ouersyghte, and clerely knowleged that he had myssetaken and wronge vnderstanden the places. And was in suche wyse fynally confounded wyth shame/ that he was in a mameryng whyther he wolde retourne agayne ouer the see, or tary styll here and renounce hys heresyes agayne, and tourne agayn to Crystes catholyke chyrche. And therfore he desyred that he myghte haue a lerned man then present assygned vnto hym, for the ferther instruccyon of hys conscyence, whyche hys request was graunted hym, and what wyll ferther come theron god knoweth. If god gyue hym ys grace to amende, euery good man wyll be glad therof. If he haue so farre gone agaynste goddes trewth, & therby greued god in such wyse, that god haue all redy gyuen hym ouer for euer/ or ellys ys though god offer hys grace agayne, the malyce of the mannes wyll wythstande it yet and reiecte it: it is not then to be dowted, but god wyll fynde a tyme for hym well inough to shew his iustyce on hym, as he hath done vppon such other/ & namely of late in Swycherland vppon zuinglius, which was the fyrst that brought Barns heresye thyther, concernyng the sacrament of the aulter. But as for hense he shall I am sure haue leue to departe saufe, accordynge to the kynges saufe conducte. And yet hath he so demeaned hym selfe synnys hys comynge hyther/ that he hath clerely broken & for- fayted hys saufe conducte, and lawfully myghte be burned for hys heresyes, yf we wolde laye his heresyes and his demeanure syth hys comynge hvther both twayne vnto his charge. But lette hym go thys ones, for god shall fynde hys tyme full well. Then haue we ferther yet besyde Barns boke, the a b c for chyldren. And bycause there is no grace therin/ lest we shold lakke prayours, we haue the prymer, and the ploughmans prayour, and a boke of other small deuocyons, and then the [Bbi] hole psalter to. After the psalter chyldren were wont to go to theyr Donat & theyr Accydence/ but now they go strayte to scrypture. And therto haue we as a Donat the boke of ys pathwaye to scrypture/ and for an Accidence, bycause we sholde be good scolers shortely and be sone spedde, we haue the whole summe of scrypture in a lytle boke/ so that after these bokes well lerned, we be mete for Tyndales pentateukes, and Tyndales testalnent, and all the tother hygh heresyes that he, and Iay, and Fryth, and frere Barns, teche in all theyr bokes bysyde/ of all whyche heresyes the seed is sowen, and pretyly sprongen vppe in these lytle okes byfore. For the Prymer and Psalter, prayours & all/ were ranslated and made in this maner, by none other but heretykes. The Psalter was translated by George Iay the preste, yt is wedded now/ and I here say the Prymer to, wherein the seuen psalmes be set in wythout the lateny, leste folke shold pray to sayntes. And ye Dirige is lefte out clene/ leste a man myght happe to pray theron or hys fathers soule. In theyr calendar byfore theyr deuout prayers, they haue sette vs a new saynt/ syr Thomas Hitton the heretyke that was burned in Kent, of whom I shall tell you more after. Hym haue they set in on saynt Mathy is euen, be the name of saynt Thomas the martyr. A longe worke wold yt be to reherse you all theyr bokes, for there be yet mo then I know. Agaynste all whyche the kynges hygh wyse- dome polytyquely prouyded, in that his hyghnes by his proclama- cions forbode any maner englysh bokes prented byionde ye see to be brought into this realme, or any to be solde prented wythin this realme, but yf the name of the prenter and his dwellynge place were sette vppon the boke. But yet so is yt as I sayde byfore, that of these vngracyouse bokes full of pestylent poysened heresyes, that haue in other realmes all redy kylled by scysmes and warre many thousande bodyes, and by synfull errours, & abomynable heresyes many mo thousand soules: haue now a few malycyouse myscheuouse persons broughte into this realme/ and labour and enforce them selfe in all that euer they may, to corrupte and infecte all good and vertuouse people. Nor no man is there any where lyuynge more studyouse and besye to do hym selfe good/ then those enuyouse wreches be laboryouse and feruent to do all other men harme, in bo[Bbiv]dye, substaunce and soule. There be fledde out of this realme for heresy a few vngracyouse folke / what maner folke theyr wrytynge and theyre lyuynge sheweth. For the captayns be prestes, monkes, and freres that neyther say masse nor matens, nor neuer come at chirche/ talkyng styll of fayth and full of false heresyes, wold seme Crystes apostles & play the deuels dysours/ spekyng mych of the spirite with no more deuocyon then dogges/ dyuerse of them, prestes, monkes, and freres, not let to wedde harlottes and then call theym wyues. And when they haue ones vyleyned the sacrament of matirmony/ then wold they make vs violate the sacrament of the auter to, tellynge vs as Tyndale doth, that yt is synne to do the blessed body of Cryste in that sacrament any honour or reuerence, but onely take yt for a token. Now when theyr chyefe captayns be suche/ we shall not nede to dowte of what sorte we shall reken the remanaunt. These felowes that naught had here, and therfore noughte caryed hense, nor nothynge fyndynge there to lyue vppon/ be yet sustayned and mayntened wyth monye sent them by some euyll dysposed persones oute of this realme thyther/ and that for none other entent but to make them sytte & seke oute heresyes, and spedyly send them hyther. Whych bokes all be yt that they neyther can be there prented without great coste, nor here solde wythout great aduenture & parell: yet ceace they not with mony sent from hense, to prente them there & send them hyther by ys whole fattes full at ones/ and in some places lokynge for no lucre, caste them abrode by nyght/ so great a pestylent pleasure haue some dyuelysh people caught, wyth the labour, trauayle, coste, charge, parell, harme, and hurte of them selfe, to seke the destruccyon of other. As ys deuyll hath a dedely delyght to bygyle good people, and brynge theyr soules into euer- lastynge torment wythout any maner wynnynge, and not wythout fynall encreace of his owne eternall payne: so do these heretykes the deuyls dyscyples bysette theyr whole pleasure and study to theyr owne fynall damnacyon, in the traynynge of symple soules to hell by theyr dyuelyshe heresyes. Myche they crye oute agaynste the clergye/ sayeng that the prestes loue to reygne in mennys conscyence. But they them self shew that when they haue made the deuyll reygne in a mannys conscyence, so farre forth that he hath no con[Bbi]scyence to eate fleshe on good frydaye, nor to caste Crystes crosse in the canell, nor to throw his blessed bodye out of the pyx: then after that lykewyse as the false preachers ys were Iewes, labored to haue all crysten people circumcysed, to thentent that as saynte Poule sayth they myghte glorye in theyr fleshe / so be these arche heretyques very glad, & great glorye they take when they may here yt any man is brought to burnynge thorow theyr bokes. Then they boste that they haue done a great maystrye, and say they haue made a martyr/ when theyr poysened bokes haue kylled the crysten man both in bodye and soule. Thus reioyced Tyndale in the deth of Hytton/ of whose burnyng he bosteth in his answere to my dyaloge, where he wryteth therof, that where I sayde that I hadde neuer founden nor herd of any of them, but that he wolde forswere to saue his lyfe, I hadde herd he sayeth of syr Thomas Hytton, whom the bishoppes of Rochester and Canterbury slew at maydstone. Of thys man they so hyghly reioyce/ that they haue as I sayde sette his name in the calendar byfore a boke of theyr englyshe prayours, by the name of saynt Thomas the martyr, in the vigyle of the blessed apostle saynte Mathye, the xxiii. daye of February/ and haue putte out for hym the holy doctour and gloryouse martyr saynte Polycarpus, the blessed byshoppe and the dyscyple of saynte Iohan theuangelyste/ for that was his day in dede, and so is it in some calendars marked. Now to thentent that ye may somwhat se what good crysten fayth syr Thomas Hytton was of, this newe saynte of Tyndales canony- sacyon, in whose burnynge Tyndale so gayly gloryeth, and whyche hath his holy daye so now appoynted to hym, that saynte Polycarpus muste geue hym place in the calendar: I shall some what shew you what holsome heresyes this holy martyr helde. Fyrste ye shall vnderstande that he was a preste/ and fallynge to Luthers secte, and after that to the secte of frere Huskyn, and zwynglius, caste of matens and masse and all dyuyne seruyce/ and so bycame an apostle sent to and fro bytwene our englyshe heretyques beyonde the see, and suche as were here at home. Now happed it so that after he had visyted here his holy congre- gacyons, in dyuers corners and luskes lanes, and [Bbiv] comforted them in the lorde to stande styffe wyth the deuyll in theyr errours and heresyes/ as he was goynge bakke agayne at graues ende, god con- syderyng the greate labour that he had taken all redy, and deter- mynyng to brynge his bysynes to his well deserued ende/ gaue hym sodaynly such a fauour and so greate a grace in the vysage, that euery man that behelde hym toke hym for a thefe. For where as there had ben certayne lynen clothes pylfred away that were hangyng on an hedge, and syr Thomas Hytton was walkyng not far of suspycyously in the medytacyon of hys heresyes: the people dowtynge that the beggerly knaue had stolen ye clowtes, fell in questyon wyth hym and serched hym/ and so fownde they certayne letters secretely conuayed in hys cote, wryten from euangelycall brethern here, vnto the euan- gelycall heretykes beyonde the see. And vppon those letters founden / he was wyth hys letters brought before the moste reuerende father in god the archebyshoppe of Canterbury/ and afterwarde as well by hys lordshyppe as by the reuerende father the bysshoppe of Rochester examyned, & after for hys abomynable heresyes delyuered to the secular handes and burned. In hys examynacyon he refused to be sworne to saye trouth / affermynge that neyther bysshoppe nor pope hadde authoryte to compell hym to swere. Whych poynte all though it be a false heresye/ yet is it lykely that he refused the othe, rather of frowardnesse then of any respecte that he hadde eyther in kepynge or brekynge. For neuer coulde I fynde heretyke yet, that any conscyence had in any othe. and of trouth Tindale in his answere to my dyaloge, techeth them that they maye breke theyr othe and be forsworen wythout any scruple at all. Hys father and hys mother he wolde not be aknowen of what they were/ they were some so good folke of lykelyhed, that he coulde not abyde the glory. He wolde not be a knowen that hym selfe was preste, but sayed that he had by the space of.ix. yeres ben beyonde the see, and there lyued by the ioyners crafte. How be it he sayd that he had allwaye as hys leysour wolde gyue hym leue, and as he coude fynde opor- tunyte in places where he came, taught the gospell of god after hys owne mynde and hys owne opynyon, not forcyng of ys determynacion of ys chyrch/ & sayd that he intended to hys power so to perceuer styll. [Bbi] Of his techyng these thinges were parte. Fyrst as for baptysme, he agreed it for a sacrament necessarye to saluacyon/ how be it euery lay person he sayd myght as well baptise as a preste, were the chyld in necessyte or not/ and that ys forme of baptysyng vsed in the chyrch were mych better, yf it were spoken in englysshe. Of matrymony whyther it were a sacrament or not, he sayed he wyste nere. But he sayed yet that it was a thynge necessary and of crysten people to be obserued and kepte. How be it as for the solem- pnysacyon of maryage at chyrche he agreed it for good, but sayd it neded not. The man ment by lykelyhed that it was good inough to wed vppon a cusshyon when the dogges be a bedde, as theyr prestes wedde I wene where theyr persons be knowen. For ellys they let not to wedde openly at chyrche, and take the hole parysshe for wytnesses of theyr bestely bychery. The extreme vnccyon or anelynge and confyrmacyon/ he sayed be no sacramentes of the chyrche, nor be nothynge necessarye to the soule. The sacrament of order he sayed is no sacrament of the chyrche, 3, nor was neuer ordeyned by god in the new testament, but onely by ian. The masse he sayed sholde neuer be sayed. For he sayed that to saye masse after the maner of the chyrche, is rather synne then vertue. As for confessyon made to a preste, he sayed nothynge profyteth the soule/ nor penaunce enioyned of the preste vnto the penytent confessed, is nothynge necessary. Purgatory he denyed / & sayed also that neyther prayour nor fastynge for ye soules departed, can do them any good. To vow and entre into any relygyon approued by the law, he sayed auayleth not/ but he sayed that all that entre into relygyon synne in so doynge. He helde also that no man hath any fre wyll after that he hath onys synned. He held that to say any diuyne seruyce after ye ordynaunce of the chyrche, auayleth nothynge/ and that all dyuyne seruyce maye be lefte vnsayed wythout any synne. He helde that all the imagcs of Cryste and hys sayntes, sholde be throwen out of the chyrche. He helde also that what so euer the pope or the generall counsayle make, besyde that that is expressely commauned [Bbuv] in scrypture / euery man may lawfully breke it without any maner synne at all mortall or venyall eyther. He held also yt yt is not lawfull neyther for the kynge of England, nor for any other cristen prince/ to make any law or statute for the punyshement of any thefte or any other cryme, by whyche lawe any man sholde suffer deth. For he sayde that all suche lawes be con- trarye to the gospell, whyche wyll no man to dye. As touchynge the blessed sacrament of the auter, he sayd yt is a necessary sacrament/ but he helde that after the consecracyon, there was none other thynge therin, but onely ys very substaunce of mattehryall brede & wyne/ and so he sayde he fermely byleued, and that he whole holde that opynyon to the deth. Fynally holdyng all these abomynable heresyes, wyth yet dyuerse other mo oflyke sewte & sorte/ he sayd that he was very certayne and sure, that he hadde the grace of god with hym, and that the holy goost was wythin hym. And so was he after myche fauour shewed hym, & myche labour charytably taken for the sauynge of hym/ delyuered in conclusyon for his obstinacye to the seculare handes, and burned vppe in hys false fayth and heresyes, wherof he lerned the great parte of Tyn- dales holy bokes/ and nowe the spiryte of errour and lyenge, hath- taken his wreched soule wyth hym strayte from the shorte fyre to ys fyre euerlastyng. And this is lo syr Thomas Hytton the dyuyls stynkyng martyr/ of whose burnynge Tyndale maketh boste. Wherefore syth Tyndale aloweth his cause/ he must nedes defend his artycles. And now wote I well that some of those artycles Tyndale hath hym self geuen ouer at laste for shame/ as the artycle agaynst images, and the artycle agaynst ys lybertye of mannys fre wyll/ wherin he bereth me in hande in his answere to my dyaloge, that I bylye Luther. But when I shall come to the place/ I shall lette you se Luthers owne wordes in that poynte so playne, that ye shall not meruayle though Tyndale were ashamed of hys mayster. And yet shall ye meruayle that ,, Tyndale was so shamelesse to denye the thynge, whyche ye shall se so playnely proued. But ye se that of thys holy martyr/ Tyndale hath not so great cause to glorye, but that he may scrape out hys name agayne out of he calendare, and restore the blessed byshoppe saynte policarpus agayne into his place. [Cci] Then haue ye hadde here burned synnys at London of late Rycharde Bayfelde, late a monke and a preste, whyche fell to heresye and was abiured/ and after that lyke a dogge returnynge to his vomyte, and beynge fledde ouer the see, and sendynge from thense Tyndales heresyes hyther wyth many myscheuouse sortes of bokes: hadde yet the kynges gracyouse forgyuenes/ & as yt was after proued bothe by other mennys and his owne confessyon to, was occupyed aboute two Ihynges at ones, that is to wyt both in sewyng for remyssyon and perdon of hys offence for bryngynge in those bokes, & therwith also in sellyng them here styll secretely, & sendyng ouer for mo, with whych at last he was taken. And to reherse his heresyes nedeth lytle/ the bokes that he brought well sheweth them, and his holy lyfe well declareth them/ when beynge both a preste and a monke, he went about two wyues, one in Brabande, a nother in Englande. What he ment I can not make you sure, whyther he wold be sure of the tone yf ye tother sholde happe refuse hym/ or that he wolde haue them both, the tone here, the tother there/ or ellys both in one lace, the tone bycause he was preste, the tother bycause he was monke. Of Bayfeldes burnynge hath Tyndale no great cause to glory. For though Tyndales bokes brought hym to burnynge/ yet was he not so constante in his euangelycall doctryne, but that after that he was taken, all the whyle that he was not in vtter dyspayre of perdon/ he was well contente to haue forsworen yt agayne, and letted not to vtter hys euangelicall brethern both in England and ellys where, causynge some of them to be taken/ as George Constantyne ere he escaped, was redy to haue in worde at the leste wyse abiured all that - holy doctryne/ what his herte was god and he know, & peraduenture the deuyll to yf he entended otherwyse. But surely there was en- tended toward hym somwhat more good, then his dealynge had by- fore deserued. And so mych the more fauour was there mynded hym, in that he semed very penytent of his mysse vsynge of hym selfe, in fallynge to Tyndales heresyes agayne. For whyche he knowleged hym selfe worthy to be hanged, that he hadde so falsely abused the kynges graciouse remissyon and pardon geuen hym byfore / and hadde for all that in the whyle both bought and solde of those herety- call bokes, and secretely set forth those heresyes. Whereof he shewed hym selfe so repentaunt, that he [Cciv] vttered and dysclosed dyuers of hys companyons, of whom there are some abiured synnys, and some that he wyste well were abiured before, namely Rycharde Necton whyche was by Constantynes deteccyon taken and commyt- ted to Newgate/ where except he happe to dye byfore in pryson, he standeth in grete paryll to be ere it be longe, for hys fallynge agayne to Tindales heresyes burned. And thus it semed by the maner of George Constantyne, whyle he was here in pryson/ that he so sore dyd forthynke hys errours and heresyes, and so perceyued the pesty- lent poyson of them/ that he thoughte it better that such as were in- fecte therwyth myghte be by the meane of hys deteccyon amended, and wyth the losse of hys body the soule cured, then bothe twayne caste awaye/ or yf the man were peraduenture of hard herte and malycyouse mynde incurable, he thought it were then better to sende hym to the deuyll alone, then let hym lyue and drawe many other wyth hym. Thys good mynde it semeth that Constantyne had then and ther- fore was there good hope of hys amendement. And peraduenture the man hadde amended and standen styll in grace, yf some euyll con- sayle had not comen at hym/ of which there was lefte vnsought no deuelyshe inuencyon or meane to sende hym/ in so mych that one of the letters I fortuned to intercepte my selfe wryten vnto hym, by one Iohan Byrte otherwyse callynge hym selfe Adryane, otherwyse Iohan bokebynder, & yet otherwyse now I can not tell you what. Of trouth George constantyne after he hadde confessed vnto a faythfull seruaunt of myne to be declared to me, that Necton had of his deliuery many of those heretycall bokes: he sent worde forthwyth to Necton, that he sholde sende the bokes home to me. Whyche yf he dyd & that I myghte haue yet seen sure tokens of amendement in the man/ Constantyne perceyued well that he had ben yet lykely to haue had fauour shewed hym. But when that Necton had ones made Byrte of hys counsayle / they dyuysed bytwene them that Necton sholde not do so in no wyse, affermynge to Constantyne that it coude not be done/ and happely it coude not in dede, for peraduenture hey were all solde all redy. How be it Necton now syth he was taken ayed that hys wyfe had burned them. But it is well knowen that Necton had hym selfe and a man of hys also, solde many such bokes of heresye, bothe in London & in other shyres syth his abiuracyon. [Cci] But how so euer the mater was/ Byrte by hys letter aduysed Constantyne yf he myghte possyble to call bakke hys confessyon agayne/ wherin I thynke it good that ye here hys very letter it selfe. Lo in these wordes he wrote. The grace and peace of our sauyour Iesus be with you good brother Constantyne. Syr as for ys mater that ye wold haue brought to passe, will not be in no maner wyse/ the person is not at home that shold receyue the stuffe, and delyuer it accordynge vnto your mynde. Therfore yf ye haue not spoken so farre in the mater that it maye be none preiudyall or hurte vnto you: I wolde ye shold go no ferther in the mater/ but euyn as a man armed wyth fayth, go forth in your mater boldely and put them to theyr proues. As for one is none you knowe well by the law of god or man. If here be any thynge that I can do/ sende word and ye shall fynde me redy to my power euen to dethe by goddes grace, who I praye longe to preserue you and comforte you in your trouble to the confusyon of all tyrauntes. Lo here haue ye herde an apostolycall pystle, counsaylynge the man to go bakke wyth the trouth, and arme hym selfe wyth fayth, and make hym stronge to lye lowde and forswere hym selfe yf nede were/ for Byrt wyste well I were not lykely to leue and byleue hym at hys bare worde. Here wyll Byrt peraduenture preche, and brynge vs in the myd- wyues of Egypt that saued the chyldren of Israell from Pharao, for whych god gaue them new howses. Wherin Byrt and I wyll not myche dyspute. For all be it that god hath gyuen hym no howse yet, nor it is not all one wyth a lye to saue a yonge innocent babe, and wyth periurye to defende an olde pestylent heretyke/ and though saynt Austayn sayth that it is not lawfull to lye for nothyng: yet I tell not my tale to lay a lye so hyghly to any suche mennes charge as these folke be, whose hole secte is nothyng els but lyes/ but I reherse you his letter bycause ye shold se what trewth there is in suche folkes wordes. How be it as for Constantyne as I sayed before, semed in pryson here very penytent, and vtterly mynded to forsake suche heresyes and heretykes for euer. In profe wherof he not onely detected as I sayd hys owne dedes & his felowes, but also studyed and deuysed how those deuelysshe bokes whyche hym selfe and other of hys felowes hadde brought and shypped, myghte come to the bysshoppes handes to be [Cciv] burned. And therfore he shewed me the shypmannes name that had them, and the markes of the ferdellys, by whych I haue synnys hys escape receyued them. And it maye be by goddes grace, that though the man fledde hense for fere of suche harme as he wyste he hadde well deserued/ & yet was nothynge towarde hym, but peraduenture more good then he was ware of: he is yet amended in hys mynde and hath in his harte forsaken all Tyndales heresyes, and so I pray god it be / for I wold be sory that euer Tyndale sholde glory and boste of hys burnynge. How be it in the meane whyle, tyll it maye well appere that he be surely turned to the catholyke fayth agayne, I wyll aduyse all good crysten folke and specyally the kynges subiectes, to forbere and estyew hys company. For yt englysshe man whyche shall be founden to be famylyare wyth hym there, byfore hys conuersyon here knowen and proued, maye therby brynge hym selfe in suspycyon of heresye, and happely here therof at hys retournynge hyther. I here also that Tyndale hyghly reioyceth in the burnyng of Tewkesbery/ but I can se no very grete cause why but yf he reken it for a grete glory that the man dyd abyde styll by the stake when he was faste bounden to it. For as for the heresyes he wolde haue abiured them agayne wyth all hys harte, and haue accursed Tyndale to, yf all ys myghte haue saued hys lyfe. And so he gaue counsayle vnto one Iamys that was for heresye in pryson wyth hym. For as Iamys hath synnys confessed/ Tewkesbery sayed vnto hym, saue you your self and abiure. But as for me bycause I haue abiured byfore, there is no remedy wyth me but deth. By whych wordes yf he had not ben in dyspayre of lyfe/ it well appereth he wold wyth good wyll ,, kaue ones abiured, and ones periured agayne. And yet at hys examynacyon he denyed that euer he hadde holden any such Opynyons as he was abiured for/ notwythstandyng that there were at hys examynacyon solne persons present of myche honestye and wourshyppe, two that had ben present at hys abiuracyon byfore/ to whyche also hys owne hand was subscrybed. And afterwarde beynge ferther examyned vppon ys same/ some he denyed, & some he de- fended agayne. Amonge other thynges he sayed that he vsed to praye to sayntes, & that he byleued them to be goddes frendes and that theyr prayours were profytable to vs and well done to praye to [Cci] them. Whereuppon I sayd vnto hym my selfe ys I was glad to se hym in that poynte yet amended, and I shewed hym as the trouth was in dede, that Iamys helde the contrarye, and that he hadde so greate a truste in Tewkesbery, that I dowted not but when he sholde here that tewkesbery hadde reuoked that poynt, he wolde reuoke it to. As sone as Tewkesbery herd that, he went from it agayne by and by/ & that so farre, that fynally he wolde not agre that before the day of dome there were eyther any saynt in heuen, or soule in purgatory, or in hell eyther. Nor the ryght fayth in the sacra- ment of the aulter wolde he not confesse in no wyse. For which tkynges and dyuers other horryble heresyes, he was delyuered at laste vnto the secular handes and burned, as there was neuer wretche I wene better worthy. Yet is there one thynge notable, and well declarynge what good and cherytable mynde the man dyed in. For after that he was delyuered vnto the secular handes / neyther whyle he was in pryson nor at the tyme of hys deth, wolde he by his wyll be aknowen of any of hys heresyes vnto any man that asked hym any questyon, but couered and hyd them by all the meanes he coulde make, & labored to make euery man wene, yt he had neuer holden any such opynyon. And by thys dealynge euery man maye se that he rought not so mych for his heresyes, nor toke them not in his owne mynde for suche thynges as he so gretely forced whyther they went forwarde or bakwarde, as he wolde fayne leue an opynyon amonge the people that hys iudges had borne hym wrong in hande, & condempned hym for such heresyes as he neuer helde. And what conscyence he had that dyed in that mynde, there is no good man dowteth. Now was his examynacyon not secrete, but folke inough therat bothe spyrytuall and temporall, and of eyther parte ryght wour- shypfull/ so that hys malycyouse mynde can in that poynte lytell take effecte. And yet dyd the same Iamys also confesse afterwarde, that Tewkesbery had redde vnto hym wyclyffes wykket agaynst the blessed sacrament. And ouer that was there founden about hym by the shyryffes offycers in the pryson, a boke of heresye of hys owne hande wrytynge, that is to wyt the boke of Marten Luther, wherin he teacheth men vnder the name of crysten lybertye, to ronne in to the deuyls bondage. And in hys howse was founden Tyndales boke of obedyence, whyche he well alowed, [Cciv] and hys wykked boke also of the wykked mammona, sayenge at hys examynacyon, that all the heresyes therin were good and crysten fayth/ beynge in dede, as full of false heresyes, and as frantike as euer heretyke made any syth Cryst was borne. And yet all thys notwythstandynge, when he was in the shyryffes warde, and at the tyme of hys deth/ he wolde not speke of hys heresyes any thynge, nor say that he had helde and wolde holde thys poynt and that/ but handeled hym selfe as couertly as he coude, to make the people wene that he hadde holden no maner opynyon at all/ nor neuer had I thynke yf Tyndales vn- gracyouse bokes had neuer come in hys hande. For whych the pore wreche lyeth now in hell and cryeth out on hym/ and Tyndale yf he do not amende in tyme, he is lyke to fynde hym when.they come togyther, an hote fyrebronde burnynge at hys bakke, that all the water in the worlde wyll neuer be able to quenche. Another is there also, whom hys vnhappy bokes haue brought vnto the fyre, Tho. Bylney that was before abiured/ whyche was the man of whom wythout name I spake so mych in my dyaloge/ whyche beyng conuycte by.xx. wytnesses and aboue, dyd yet stykke styll in hys denyall / & sayd they were all forsworen, and had vtterly belyed hym. But god whyche is very trouth, and bryngeth at last alwaye the trouth to lyght, wolde not suffer suche obstynate vntrouth at length to passe vnpunyshed/ but of hys endles mercy brought hys body to deth, & gaue hym yet ys grace to turne and saue hys soule. For so was it that after dyuerse sermons, whyche he had after hys abiuracyon, and agaynst the prohybycyon gyuen hym vppon hys abiuracyon, made in sundry secrete corners, and some also openly, wherof the bysshoppe yet bycause he herde of none heresye therin had forborne to lay the dysobedyence to hys charge: he went vnto Norwych, where he had enfected dyuers of the cytye before. And beynge there secretely kepte by a certayne space, had in the whyle resorte vnto an ancresse/ and there began secretely to sow hys cocle, and brought vnto her dyuers of Tyndales bokes, and was there taken in the doynge, and the bokes after founden about a nother man that was conuayenge them thense/ and these thynges who so herde the hole processe cam in suche wyse to passe, that he coulde nothynge dowbte but that it came to lyght by the very prouysyon of god. [Cci] When he came to examynacyon, he waxed styffe and stoborne in hys opynyons. But yet was god so good and gracyous lorde vnto hym, that he was fynally so fully conuerted vnto Cryste and hys trew catholyke fqyth ys not onely at the fyre, as well in wordes as wrytynge, but also many dayes before/ he had reuoked, abhorred, and detested suche heresyes as he before had holden/ whych notwythstandyng there lakked not some that were very sory for it/ of whom some sayd, and some wrote out of Norwych to London, that he had not reuoked his heresyes at all, but styll had abyden by them. And suche as were not ashanaed thus to saye and wryte, beynge afterwarde examyned theruppon, saw the contrary so playnely proued in theyr faces, by suche as at hys execucyon stode by hym, whyle he redde hys re- pocacyon hym selfe/ that they had in conclusyon nothynge elles to Say, but that he redde hys reuocacyon so softely, that they coude not here it. How be it they confessed that he loked vppon a byll and redde it/ but they sayd that they coude not tell, whyther it were the byll of hys reuocacyon or not. And yet rehersed they them selfe certayne thynges spoken by hym to ye peple at the fyre/ wherby they coude not but perceyue well that he reuoked hys errours, albeit that some of them watered his wordes wyth addycyons of theyr owne, as it was well proued before thena. They coude not also deny but that forth- wyth vppon hys iudgement and hys degradacyon, he kneled downe before the bysshoppes chauncellour in the presence of all the people, and humbly bysought hym of absolucyon from the sentence of excommunycacyon/ and wyth his iudgement helde hym selfe well content, and knowleged ys he had well deserued to suffer the deth, that he then wyste he sholde. They coude not say nay but that vppon thys hys humble request and prayour/ he was there in presence of all the people assoyled, by- fore that he was caryed out of the court/ whyche them selfe well wyste wolde neuer haue ben, but yf he hadde reuoked. Yet was there a nother thynge that they coude not deny (For all be it they sayd they were not therat, yet they hadde herd it in suche wyse, that as they sayd they byleued it to be trew) and that thynge was suche, as it selfe alone muste nedes make them sure that he had reuoked hys heresyes. The thynge was thys. He labored and made greate in[Cciv]- staunce certayne dayes after hys iudgement / that he myght be suffred to receyue the blessed body of Cryste in forme of brede. Wherin the chauncellour made a whyle greate stykkynge and dyffycultye/ to the entent that he wolde ys better and more clerely perceyue what deuocyon the man hadde there to. And fynally per- ceyuynge hym to be of a trew pcrfyte fayth, and hys desyre to procede of a feruent mynde, it was agreed and graunted. And ther- uppon was he howseled in so trew perfyte fayth, & so grete deuocyon / that euery good crysten man hath greate cause to reioyce therin. And when hys confessour in the ende of the masse, which Bylney full deuowtely herde vppon hys knees, brought vnto hym the body of Cryste vppon the paten of ys chalyce, wyth very good and godly exhortacyon vsed vnto hym, that excepte he were in herte as he was in worde and outwarde semblaunce, he shold ellys forbere to receyue that blessed body/ syth he sholde then vndowtedly receyue it on hys owne damnacyon: it wold haue gladded any good crysten herte, to haue herd hys faythfull crysten answere/ as they reporte & testyfye that were at that tyme by. Moreouer where as in the presence of that holy sacrament holden yet vppon the paten in the prestes handes / Bylney byfore he re- ceyued it sayd ys colecte, <2Domine Iesu Christe>2.: when he came at these wordes, <2ecclesi@ tu@ Pacem & concordiam>2, he dyuers tymes repeted those wordes wyth tunsyons & knokkynges vppon hys breste/ and there vnto god confessed and asked his mercy, that he had so greuousely ,, erred in ys point, and so sore offended hym in contempnynge hys chyrche. And no meruayle was it, though he had a specyall re- morse of that artycle. For the contempnyng of Crystes catholyke knowen chyrche, and the framvnge of a secrete vnknowen chyrche that he lerned of Luther and Tyndale/ was ye very poynt that broughte hym vnto all hys myschyefe, as the very fundacyon wkeruppon all other heresyes are byelded. And therfore as ye good- nesse of god gaue hym grace to cast vnto the deuyll all hys other errours: so gaue he hym hys specyall grace to haue of that heresye that was and is the grounde of all the remanaunt, moste especyall repentaunce and remorse/ wherby we may very well hope and trust that our lorde (whose hygh goodnesse gaue hym suche grace so fully to repente and reuoke hys heresyes, that he wyth glad herte was con- tent to suffer the fyre for the punysshement of [Ddi] hys offence) hath of hys infynyte mercy taken and accepted that payne for so farre as he wyll exacte of the pore mannes purgatory/ and settyng the merytes of hys owne paynefull passyon therunto, hath forthwyth from the fyre taken hys blessed soule to heuen / where he now prayeth incessauntly for the repentaunce and amendement of all suche as haue ben by hys meanes whyle he lyued, into any suche errours induced or confyrmed. And I fermely truste that goddys grace to that effecte wyth that holy mannes prayour wyll worke/ and so I praye god it maye. But thus ye se ys Tyndale hath no greate cause to glory of hys martyrs/ when that theyr lyuyng is openly nought, theyr opynyons suche as hym selfe wyfl abhorre, they redy to abiure agayne yf it myghte saue theyr lyfe, theyr sectes so dysperate that eyther they dare not at the fyre set forth theyr opynyons for shame, or ellys of malyce do dyssymule them, to bryng ys people in a false opynyon of theyr iudges, to wene that they iudged wronge. And Bylney that had lernynge, and had ben accustumed in morall vertues, was by god reuoked from Tyndals heresye ere he dyed/ and that of lykelyhed the rather, bycause god wolde not haue all his good workes loste. And yet gloryeth Tindale vngraciously in theyr destruccyon / rekenynge that theyr paynefull deth doth grete worshyppe to hys bokes, whyche are of suche sorte that neuer were there worse nor more abomynable wryten. And yet hys bokes beynge suche/ some folke there are that wyth suche folysshe fauour and suche blynde affeccyon rede them, that theyr taste enfected wyth the feuer of heresyes/ they not onely can were in good waye towarde amendement) but are also dyscontent and angry wyth any man that wolde helpe them to perceyue it/ and fayne wolde they haue them rather byleued then answered. Of whyche sorte some haue asked what haue I to do to medle wyth the mater/ sayenge that beynge a laye man, I sholde leue it to the clergye to wryte in/ and not hauynge professed the study of holy scrypture, I sholde leue the mater hole vnto deuynes. Surely fyrst as touchyng lernyng, [Ddiv] yf that these maters were very dowtfull and thynges of greate questyon, or hadde bene so connyngly handeled by Tyndale and hys felowes, as they myghte seme therby maters of greate dowte and questyon: then wolde I peraduenture lette them alone my selfe, to be debated by men of more erudycyon and lern- ynge. But now the maters beynge so playne, euydent, and clere/ and by the hole chyrche of Cryste so clerely put out of questyon, that it is playne and open heresye erenestly to brynge them in questyon: I neuer purpose beynge in my ryght mynde and a trew crysten man, to gyue an heretyque so myche authoryte, as to reken my selfe vnable in so playne poyntes of the crysten fayth to answere hym/ namely syth I haue gone somwhat to scole my selfe, and bestowed as many yeres in studye, and vnder as connynge maysters as some of them daue/ and that I se not hytherto these maters handeled in suche wyse by Tyn- dale, or the best of them bysyde that euer haue wryten therin, but that a ryght meane lerned man, or almoste an vnlerned woman auynge naturall wyt and beynge sure and faste in the trewe atholyke fayth/ were well able to answere them. For so helpe me god as I nothynge fynde effectuall amonge them all, but a shamelesse boldenesse and vnreasonable raylynge, wyth scryptures wrested awrye, and made to mynyster them mater vnto theyr iestynge, scoffynge, and outragyouse rybaldry / not onely agaynste euery estate here in erth, & that agaynst them moste that be moste relygyouse in lyuynge, but also agaynste all the sayntes in heuen, and agaynste the blessed body of Cryste in the holy sacrament of the aulter. In whyche thynges they fare as folke that truste in nothynge elles, but to wery all wryters at last wyth endlesse and importune babelynge, & to ouerwhelme the hole worlde wyth ordes. Now as for me, ye cause is of my wrytynge, not so mych to debate and dyspute these thynges wyth them, whyche (though I truste therin to gyue them no grete place) many men maye do mych better yet then I/ as to gyue men warnynge what myschyefe is in theyr bookes, bycause many good symple folke byleuynge that these men neyther saye nor meane so euyll as they be borne in hande/ and longyng [Ddi] therfore to rede theyr bokes and se the thynge them selfe, be fyrste infecte wyth some heresyes that seme not at the fyrste intolerable, ere euer they come at the greatest/ and then beynge before infecte wyth the lesse, they fall at laste to bere the greater, to whyche in the begynnynge they coude neuer haue abyden. Now yf they wyll aske, is there no body to gyue them warnynge but I? Yes there be that be mete there to, and there be that in dede do so/ and yet amonge other that parte apertayneth to me. For I well knowe that the kynges hyghnes, whyche as he for hys moste faythfull mynde to god, no thynge more effectually desyreth then the mayntenaunce of the trewe catholyque fayth/ wherof he is by hys no more honorable then well deserued tytell defensor, so nothynge more detesteth then these pestylent bokes that Tyndale and suche other sende in to the realme, to sette forth here theyr abomynable here- syes wythall: doth of hys blessed dysposycyon of all erthly thynges abhorre the necessyte to do punysshement/ and for that cause hath not onely by hys moste erudyte famouse bokes bothe in englysshe and in latyn, declared hys moste catholyque purpose and entent/ but also by hys open proclamacyons dyuers tymes iterate and re- newed, and fynally in hys owne moste roiall person in the sterre chamber moste eloquently by hys owne mouth in greate presence of hys lordes spyrytuall and temporall/ gaue monycyon and warnynge to all the iustyces of peace of euery quarter of hys realme then assembled byfore hys hyghnes, to be by them in theyr cuntrees to all hys people declared/ and dyd prohybyte and forbydde vppon greate payne, the bryngynge in, redynge, and kepynge of any of those pernycyouse poysened bookes/ to the entent that euery subget of hys by the meane of suche manyfolde effectuall warnynge, wyth hys gracyouse remyssyon of theyr formar offence in hys commaunde- ment byfore broken, sholde from thense forthe auoyde and estyew the parell and daunger of punyshement/ and not dreue hys hygh- nesse of necessyte, to the thynge from whyche the myldenesse of hys benygne nature abhorreth. Now seyng ye kynges gracyouse purpose in thys poynt: I reken that beynge hys vnworthy chauncellour, it appertayneth as I sayed vnto my parte and dewty, to folow the [Ddiv] ensample of hys noble grace/ and after my pore wyt and lernynge, wyth openynge to hys people the malyce and poyson of those pernycyous bokes, to helpe as mych as in me is, yt hys people abandonynge the contagyon of all suche pestylent wrytynge, maye be farre from infeccyon/ and therby from all suche punyshement as folowynge theruppon, doth often- tymes rather serue to make other beware that are yet clere, then to cure and hele well those that are all redy infected/ so harde is that carbuncle catchvnge onys a core, to be by any meane well and surely cured. How be it god so worketh, that somtyme it is. Towarde the helpe wherof/ or yf it happely be incurable, then to the clene cuttynge out ys parte for infeccyon of the remanaunt: am I by myne offyce in vertue of myne othe, and euery offycer of iustyce thorow the realme for his rate, ryght especyally bounden / not in reason onely and good congrewence, but also by playne ordynauns and statute. Wherfore I recon my selfe of dewtye depely bownden,.to shew you good reders the parell of these bokes/ wherof the makers haue such myscheuouse mynde, that they boste and glory when theyr vngracy- ouse wrytyng bryngeth eny man to deth. And yet make they sem- blauns as though they were sory for yt. And then Tyndale cryeth owt vppon the prelates and vppon the temporall prynces, and callethe theym murtherers and martyr quellers/ dyssymulyng that ys cruell wrech wyth hys wreched bookes, murderethe the man hym selfe whyle he geueth hym the poyson of hys heresyes, and therby com- pellethe prynces by occasyon of theyr incurable and contagyouse pestylence, to punyshe theym accordynge to iustyce by sore paynfull dethe, bothe for ensample and for infeccyon of other. Whych thyng as sore as these heretyques reproue/ affermyng that yt ys agaynst the gospell of Chryste, that eny heretyque should be persecuted and punyshed, and specyallye by bodylye payn or dethe/ and some of theym saye the same of euery maner cryme, thefte, mur- der, treason, and all: yet in Almayn now contrary to theyr owne euangelycall doctryne, those euangelycalls theym selfe ceace not to pursew and punyshe by all the meanys they may, by purse, by pryson, by bodylye payne, and dethe, dyuerse theyre euangelycall bretherne that vary fro theyr secte/ as there are of those counterfayte euangely- calls mo sundry sortys of dyabolycall sec[Ddi]tes, then a man may well reherse. And to thys at the last be they dreuen theym selfe, contrary to heyre owne formar doctrine/ bycause they fynde & proue well by experyence, that thoughe theyre sectes be but false heresyes all, yet can not the tone sorte long dwell wyth the tother/ but that yf they begynne onys to be matchys, they shall not fayle at length to con- tende and stryue to gether, & by sedycyons, the tone dreue the tother to ruyne. For neuer shall yt cuntre long abyde wythout debate and ruffle/ where scysmes & factyouse heresyes are suffered a whyle to grow. Byleue me not yf eny man can reken a place where euer he founde it otherwyse, in Affryque ys Donatystes/ in Grece ye Arryanes/ in Boheme the Hussytes / in England the wyclyffystes / ad now in Almayn the Lutheranes/ and after that ys zuynglyanes/ what by- synes they haue made, what dystruccyon and manslaughter they haue caused, partelye the storyes wytnesse, partelye men haue pre- sentely seen. And yet hath god alwaye mayntened and contynued hys trew catholyke fayth, with the grete fall & ruyne at length of many scysmatycall sectes/ whose fall vndowtedly the remanaunt wyll in conclusyon folow, wyth the playne & open wrathe of god shewed vppon theyr false prophetes/ as it fell vppon the prophetes bothe of Beale and Baall, & now thys yere vppon zuinglius hym selfe, that fyrst brought in to Swycherland the abomynable heresye agaynst the blessed sacrament of the awter, and was as I say by the hande of god thys yere slayne in playne batayle agaynste the catholikes with many a thousand of his wreched secte, beyng in nomber to the catho- lykes thre agaynst one/ and as prowdely and wyth as malycyouse purpose inuadynge them, as euer dyd the Egypcyans pursew the chyldren of Israell. But now sayth Tyndale and frere Barns bothe, that I do them wronge, in that I call theyr bokes sedycyouse. For they counsayle they saye the people in theyr bokes, to be obedyent vnto theyr souerayns & rulers, all though they shold suffer wronge/ and how can our bokes then (saye they) be sedycyouse? Surely to make men heretykes, and then byd them be meke (when heresye spryngeth as saynt Austayne sayth of pryde) standeth as well wyth reason/ as to make a man dronke, and byd hym be sober/ make hym starke madde, & byd hym be well auysed/ make hym a starke thefe, and byd [Ddiv] hym se he stele not. How be yt besyde ye sedicion that euery scysme and dyuisyon muste nedes moue and prouoke amonge any people yt are of dyuerse sectis, all though they were all obedient vnto one prynce/ and cause them therby though they rebelled not agaynste his person, yet to breke the peace and quiete of his cuntre, and runne in to the daynger & parelle of hys lawes: let vs yet ferther loke and consyder in what maner & fashyon they counseyle the people to obay theyr prynces. They bydde the people for a countenaunce to be obedient. But they say therwyth that the lawys & preceptes of theyre souerayns do nothynge bynde ys subiectes in theyr conscyencys, but yf the thynges by them commaunded or forbeden, were before commaunded or forbeden in scrypture. And all ys wordes of scripture wherby they be commaunded to obay theyr gouernours, wold they restrayne vnto those thynges onely, that are expressede all redy wythin the corps of scrypture. So that yf they can begyle the lawys & preceptes of theyr Souerayns vnware to other men, and therby fle fro ys parell of out- warde bodely on shement: theyr euangelycall lybertie sholde serue theym suffycyentl for dyscharge of theyre conscyence, and in- wardely make theym in theyre soules clere arigelycall hypocrytys. Nowe whan they falsely tell theym that they be not bounden to obaye theyre gouernours lawfull commaundementes / and thenne holyly counseyle theym to obay theyr vnlawfull tyranny (for by that name call they the lawys) what effecte wene ye they wolde that theyr aduyce sholde haue? They knowe theym selfe well ynough and the maner of the people to/ and be not so madde I warraunte yowe but ,, that they perceyue full well, thatyf they can persuade the people to belyue ys they be not in theyr conscyence bounden to obay ys lawes and preceptys of theyr gouernours/ theym selfe be no such precyouse apostles, that folke wolde forbere theyre awne ease or pleasure, for the faynt fayned counseyle of a few false apostatas. And thus ys yt sure, that by theyre false doctryne they must yf they be belyued, brynge ys people in to the secrete contempte, and spyrytuall dyso- bedyence, & inwarde hatered of the lawe/ wherof muste after folowe the outwarde brech, and theruppon outwarde ponyshement & parell of rebellyon / wherby the pryncys sholde be dreuen to sore effusyon of theyr subiectes blood, as hath all redy mysse[Ddi]hap- pened in Almayne and of olde tyme in Englande. Let vs yet consyder ferther a poynt of theyr good holy counsayle concernynge the peoples obedyence. Frere Barns in hys frantyke booke, byddeth the people that they holde not rebell in no wyse. But he byddeth them therwyth that or all the kynges commaundement, they shold not suffer Tyndales false translacyon of the scrypture go out of theyr hande / but rather dye then leue it. Now knoweth he well that the false malycy- ouse maner that Tyndale hath vsed in the translatyng therof, as I haue proued bothe in my dyaloge and synnes agayne in thys boke/ and as Tyndale doth hym selfe in hys owne answere openly con- esse in the tytles of penaunce and preste: was done to set forth hys false heresyes wythall. And therfore it appereth well that Barns wold haue the people rather dye then obay theyr prynces, in put- tynge away that boke that is falsely translated for the maynten- aunce of many pestylent heresyes. And thus ye se how fayne he wolde glorye in the peoples blode. For he woteth very well ys the kynges hyghnesse wyll in no wyse, nor in no wyse maye yf he wyll saue hys owne soule / suffer that false translacyon in the handes of vnlerned people, whyche is by an open heretyke purposely translated false to the destruccyon of so many soules. Now no man dowteth I thynke, but that Tindale hym selfe wolde no lesse were done for the mayntenaunce of hys false translacyon of the euangelystes, then wolde hys euangelycall brother Barns / but that folke sholde agaynste the kynges proclamacyons kepe styll hys bokes, & rather than leue them, dye in the quarell for the defence of his glory. Where as I byfore in my dyaloge dyd say that Luthers bokes be sedycyouse, as I now say that Tyndales be to, & mouynge people to theyr owne vndoyng to be dysobedyent and rebellyouse to theyr souerayns, in affermyng that they be not nor can not be bounden by any law made by men: Tyndale answereth me for Luther that I say vntrewly/ and then sayth he ferther in thys wyse: <2A crysten man is>2 <2bounden to obay tyranny/yf it be not agaynste hisfayth nor the law of god,>2 <2ty11 god delyuer hym therof.>2 Now let I passe myche raylynge that he consequentely maketh vppon prynces/ and shall for thys tyme onely counsayle you to con- syder these few wordes of hys, whyche he layeth forth for a rule of peoples obedyence to theyr prynce. [Ddiv] For hys rule is that they shall obav theyr tyranny, tyll god delyuer them therof. And in thys poynt wyll I not be Tyndals interpretor / he may meane dyuerse wayes, but whych way he meaneth in dede, he shall hym selfe de- clare at his ferther leysore/ for me thynketh he rneaneth not very well, sauynge that I wyll not take hym to the wurste. But in the tother poynt, I may be bolde to say that no good man may take hym well, where he sayth that a crysten man ys bounden to obay theyre pryncys tyranny, yf it be not agaynste hys fayth nor the lawe of god. And yet wyll I well agre ys yf these wordes were spoken of a good faithfull mannys mouthe, and where any nede requyred yt: they were very well sayed / as they were when the apostles sayed, we muste rather please god then man. But when Tyndale that ys an heretyke putteth for a rule of the peoples obedyence to a good crysten prynce, that they be bounden to obay hys teranny yf yt be not agaynste his fayth: I say that this his rule of obedyence ys a playne exhortacyon to dysobedyence and rebellion. For euery man well seeth ys Tyndale amonge many other abhominable heresyes techeth for ys ryght faith, that freres may lawfully wedde nunnys/ and that no Man is bounden to ys kepynge of any fastyng day or holyday made by the chyrch/ and that no man sholde pray to any saynte, nor pray for all crysten soules/ and that yt is great synne to do any wurshyppe to crystys precyouse body in the blessed sacramente of the awter/ and wolde the people sholde kepe hys false translacyon of scrypture for mayntenance of these heresyes. And therfore yf any prynce make a lawe againste Tyndales heresyes, in any of these poyntes or suche other lyke: Tyndale here teacheth that the people are not bounden to obay yt/ but may and must wythstancle suche tyranny. Or at the leste wyse, though they be bounden peraduenture openly to obaye theyr pryncis tyranny, in forberynge fleshe on good fryday, or com- mynge to goddes seruyce on whytsone sonday, or freres in forberynge open weddynge with nonnes (in all which thinges they be yet by Tindales godly gospell at theyr euangelycall lybertie, secretely to do what they liste theym selfe, where no peace is broken nor any weke conscience offended): yet for any law or commaundement eyther of prynce, or pope, or generall counsayle of all crysten nacyons, or of any angell that wolde come out of heuen to commaunde in goddys name ys contrary/ euery man must kepe still Tyndales [Eei] false translacyon of scrypture, and abyde by hys other false bokes made for the mayntenaunce of hys manyfolde false heresyes. And no man muste for no law nor commaundement pray to any saynt, nor for any soule in purgatory, nor kysse any relyque, nor crepe to Crystes crosse, nor do any worshyppe to Crystes blessecl body and bloode in the holy sacrament of the aulter. But yf any prynce wolde by any lawe or commaundement, com- pelle hys people to any of those thynges: then Tyndale here playnely teacheth them that they maye and muste styffely wythstande hys tyranny. So that fynally concernynge obedyence / Tyndales holy doctryne is, that the people sholde in the defence of hys false heresyes, not let to dysobaye but stubernly to wythstande theyr prynce. Whych yf any man were so mad to do/ & then were therfore in theyr obstynacye burned, or otherwyse in theyr rebellyon slayne: there were the tryumphe, the greate feste and glory of Tyndales deuelysh prowde dyspytuouse harte, to delyte and reioyce in ys effusyon of suche peoples blode as his poysened bokes had myserably bywyched, and from trew crysten folke, turned into false wycked wreches. Now to thentent that ye maye the more clerely perceyue the malycyouse mynde of these men, and that theyr pestylent bokes be bothe odyouse to god and dedely contagyouse to men/ and so myche the more perylouse in that theyr false heresyes wylyly walke forth vnder the counterfayt vysage of the trew crysten fayth: thys is the cause and purpose of my present labour / wherby god wyllyng 1 shall so pull of theyr gaye paynted vysours, yt euery mart lystyng to loke theron, shall playnely perceyue and byholde the bare vgly gargyle facys of theyr abomynable heresye. And for bycause the mater is longe, and my leysour seld & shorte: I can not as I fayne wolde sende out all at ones, but yf 1 sholde kepe styll all togyther by me lenger then me thynketh conuenyent. I sende out now therfore of thys present worke, these thre bookes fyrste. ln the fyrst of whyche 1 answere Tyndales preface made before his answere to my dyaloge/ whiche preface of hys is in a maner an introduccyon into all his heresyes. The seconde boke is agaynst hys defence of hys translacyon of the new testament. The thyrde agaynst two [Eeiv] chapyters of Tyndales answere / ys tone, whyther the word were afore the chyrche or the chyrche afore the worde/ the tother, whyther the apostles lefte any thynge vnwryten necessary to saluacyon, wheruppon greate parte of all hys heresyes hange. Now shall I (god wyllyng) at my nexte leysor go ferther in hys booke, and come to the very brest of all this batayle/ that is to wyt the questyon whyche is the chyrche. For that is the poynt that all these heretykes by all the meanes they may labour to make so darke, that by theyr wyllys no mart sholde wyt what they meane. But I truste to drawe the serpent out of hys darke denne / and as the poetes fayne that Hercules drew vppe Cerberus the mastyffe of hell into the lyght where hys eyen dased: so shall I wyth the grace of that lyght whych illumyneth euery man that cometh in to this worlde, make you that mater so lyghtsome and so clere to euery man, that I shall leue Tyndale neuer a darke corner to crepe into, able to hyde hys hed. Then after that I haue so clerely confuted Tyndale concernynge that poynt, and shall haue playnely proued you the sure and sted- faste authoryte of Crystes catholyke knowen chyrche, agaynste all Tyndales tryflynge sophystycacyons/ whyche he wold sholde seme so solempne subtyle insolubles, whyche ye shall se proued very frantyke folyes: after thys done I say, before I go ferther wyth Tyndale, I purpose to answere good yong father Fryth/ whych now sodaynly commeth forth so sagely, that.iii. olde men, my brother Rastell, the bysshoppe of Rochester & I, matched wyth father Fryth alone, be now but very babys, and as he calleth vs insipientes. But thus goth ys worlde forth bytwene Fryth and vs. He encreaceth I se well as fast as we decay. For ones I wene the yongeste of vs thre, thre dayes ere father Fryth was borne/ had lerned within a lytle as mych as father Fryth hath now. How be it I shall leue yonge father Fryth in his pryde & glory for ys whyle. But when Tindale is ones in ys article touchyng ys chyrch confuted: then hath Frith alredy concernynge purgatory clerely lost the felde/ and all hys welbeloued boke is not worth a boton, though it were all as trew as it is false. For then is the fayth of the chyrche in that poynt infallyble, or at the lest vnculpable, were there scrypture therfore or not. And no scrypture can there proue [Eei] the very trew chyrch to holde an artycle as trew fayth, that were in dede dampnably false. And yet shall I for all that go ferther wyth yonge father Fryth, and towch yf god wyll euery parte of hys freshe paynted boke/ and so shall I plukke of I truste the moste gloryouse fethers from hys gaye pecoks tayle, that I shall leue hym yf he haue wyt and grace, a lytell lesse delyghte & lykynge in hym selfe then he semeth now to haue/ whyche thynge hath hytherto made hym for to stande not a lytell in hys owne lyght. I praye god hartely sende that yonge man the grace to bestow hys wyt and lernynge such as it is, aboute some better busynes then Tyndale mysse bestoweth it now. For now is Frythys wyt and lern- ynge, nothynge but Tyndales instrument wherby he bloweth out hys heresye. Fynally after that I shall haue answered Fryth / I purpose to retourne agayne vnto Tyndales boke, and answere hym in euery chapyter ys he hath impugned in the.iiii. bokes of my dyaloge. Wherin I truste to make euery chyld perceyue hys wyly folyes and false craftes, wyth hys open shameles lyes put in and mengled amonge them / wherwyth he fayne wolde & weneth to blynde in such wyse the world, that folke shold not espye the falshed & foly of hys execrable heresyes. I thynke that no man dowteth but that this worke both hath ben and wyll be some payne and labour to me/ and of trouth so I fynde it. But as helpe me god I fynde all my laboure in the wrytynge not halfe so greuouse and paynefull to me, as the tedyouse redynge of theyr blasphemouse heresyes/ that wolde god after all my labour done, so that the remembraunce of theyr pestylent errours were araced out of englysshe mennes hertes, and theyr abomynable bookes burned vppe, myne owne were walked wyth thern/ and the name of these matters vtterly put in oblyuyon. How be it syth I se the deuyll in these dayes so stronge, and these deuelysshe heresyes so sore set a broche in some vnhappy hertes, that they neuer ceace in all that euer they may to sprede these bokes abrode to suche as kepe them in hukermoker, & secretely poysen them selfe wenynge the bokes were very good whyle they rede but them alone/ and then of those euyll bokes so many dayly made by so many idle heretykes and by & by sent hyther: it were nede as me semeth that dyuerse [Eeiv] wyse & well lerned men sholde set theyr pennys to the boke / whych though they shall not satysfye them that wyll nedes be nought, yet shall they do good to suche as fall to these folke of ouersyghte, wenyng yt theyr new wayes were well. Our sauyour sayth that ys chyldren of darkenes be more polytyke in theyr kynde then are the chyldren of lyght in theyr kynde. And surely so semeth it now. For these false faythlesse heretykes, whose hertes are in the depe darke dongeon of the deuyll/ are more wyly and more besy therwyth in settyng forth of theyr heresyes, then are the faythfull lerned folke in the defence of the trouth. And as the trew dyscyples of Cryst were in slumber and fe11 in slepe in Crystes company, whyle Iudas the traytor was wakynge and watchynge aboute hys detestable treason: so whyle these Iudasys watche & study about the makynge of theyr vngracyouse bookes, good and trew byleuynge men that were mete to answere them, and that were able in wrytynge to mych more then ouermatche them, yf they wolde wake and praye and take the penne in hande/ be now so forweryed wyth the sorowe and heuynesse to se the worlde waxe so wretched, that they fall euyn in a slumber therewyth and lette these wretches alone/ sauynge that yet somtyme some good Peter in a good zele so smvteth of Malchus eare, that god setteth it on better agayne and gyueth it grace to drawe bakke from the herkenynge of false heresyes, and to gyue it selfe to the herynge of Crystes trewe catholyque fayth. And somtyme agayne some good holy Poule shaketh the poysened adder into a fayre fyre / yt lyeng and lurkynge amonge the drye frutelesse fagottes catcheth good folke by the fyngers, and so hangeth on theyr handes wyth the poysen styng of false onely fayth, that they wolde wythholde them from settynge theyr handes to any good vertuouse workes. But now leuynge other men to do as god shall lyke to put in theyr myndes: I shall for my parte performe that I haue promysed yf god gyue me lyfe and grace therto. For as for leysore shall not I truste one tyme or other lakke to suffyse, for so mych & for mych more to. Whyche when I haue as I before sayd all togyther performed: I wolde in good fayth wysshe that neuer man sholde nede to rede any worde. [Eei] For surely the very best waye were neyther to rede thys nor theyrs/ but rather the people vnlerned to occupye them selfe besyde theyr other busynesse in prayour, good medytacyon, and redynge of suche englysshe bookes as moste may norysshe and encrease deuocyon. Of whyche kynde is Bonauenture of the lyfe of Cryste, Gerson of the folowynge of Cryste, and the deuoute contemplatyue booke of Scala perfectionis wyth suche other lyke / then in the lernynge what may well be answered vnto heretykes. The very tryacle were well loste, so that all venome and poyson were vtterly lost therwyth. And better were it not to be syk at all/ then of a grete syknesse to be very well heled. And yf it myghte be prouyded that euery man sholde be so well tempered, that no man sholde by dystemperaunce fall into dysease: then were it better that ys physycyon bestowed all hys tyme about that parte of physyke that teacheth to preserue our helthe, then to wryte any worde of that parte that restoreth it. But syth it can neuer be brought to passe that poysen wyll be forgoten, nor that euery man shall vse hym selfe so cyrcumspectely, but that eyther of ouersyghte or aduenture some shall haue nede of cure: therfore it is necessary that tryacle for the tone, and other medycynes for ys tother be prouyded and had. And therfore as I wold wyshe that theyr bookes were all gone and myne owne therwyth: so syth I se well that that thynge wyll not be/ better it is I reken that there be tryacle redy, then the poysen to tary and no tryacle for it. How be it though euery shoppe were full of tryacle: yet were he not wyse I wene that wolde wylfully drynke poysen fyrste to drynke tryacle after/ but rather caste the poysen to the deuyll, and let the tryacle stande for some that sholde happe to nede it. And lykewyse wolde I counsayle euery good crysten man, and specyally such as are not groundely lerned / to cast out the poysened draught of these heretykes bokes, whych when they be dronken downe in- fecte ys reader and corrupte the soule vnto the euerlastyng deth/ and therfore neyther vouchesafe to rede theyr bokes nor any thyng made agaynst them neyther, but abhorre to here theyr heresyes so mych as named/ accordyng to the gracyouse counsayle of ys blessed apostle Poule agaynst fornycacion, where he wryteth vnto the Ephesyans: Let not fornycacyon be so [Eeiv] mych as named or spoken of among you. And yet syth that wolde not be brought to passe that he counsayled, and wold fayne haue had obserued: he was fayne hym selfe to speke therof and wryte therof to arme the people agaynste it, in mo placys then one/ as both he and other apostles and all holy doctors synnys haue ben dreuen to wryte againste heresyes, & yet wold fayne that folke wolde so clere haue caste all heresyes out of remembraunce, that neyther theym selfe shulde haue neded to wryte therof, nor other folke to rede ys parte of theyre bokes. And therfore as I wolde aduyse any man neither to rede these heretykes bokes nor myne, but occupy theyr myndes better/ and standynge fermely by the catholyke faith of this xv.C. yere, neuer onys muse vppon these newe fangled heresyes: so on the tother syde yf it mysse happe any man to fall in such a fonde affeccyon & vayne curiouse mynde, ys neither parell temporall in brech of hys pryncys proclamacyon & the lawes of the realme, nor ye parell spyrituall in hurtynge of his owne soule nor they both to gether by puttynge hym selfe in daynger to burne both here and in hell, can hold his ycchynge fyngers frome theyre poysened bokes/ then wold I counsayle hym in any wyse to rede therwith such thynges as are wrytten agaynste theym, and way theym both at the leste wyse indyfferently/ and not to fall sodenly so dronke in the newe muste of theyre newefangled neweltyes, that the olde holsome wyne with whych good folke haue lyued now this fyften hundred yere, offend theyr dronken taste, by- cause yt is not so walow swete but drynketh more of ye verder. Forthermore for as mych as accordynge to the wordes of Cryst It wyll none otherwyse be, but that some stumblyng blokkys wyll allway be by malycyouse folke layed in good peoples way/ though beste were to stoppe your earis vtterly and gyue none herynge to any false en- chauntors that wold bywych you wylyly, to make you delyte in those bokes: yet sith some that be playne & symple may fortune to be secretly mysse lede by false wyly shrewes excepte they be well armed before/ I doute not by godes grace but yf they rede fyrste ys thynges that are wrytten agaynste theym, they shall theym selfe be able to reiecte and confounde any deuyll that wolde drawe theym to them. And therfore as I am sure that euyl and vngracyouse folke shall euer fynde the meanys yt suche [Eei] bookes shall neuer in some corners lakke, wherby good people may be deceyued and corrupted: yt ys more thenne necessary that men haue agayne at hande suche bookes as may well arme them, to resyste and confute them. Of which kynde of good bokes all be it I knowe well there may and dowte not but there shall be, many better made then myne/ and that some such I se alredy: yet haue I not so sleyghtly seen vnto myn owne, nor shoffled it vp so hastely, nor let it so passe vnloked ouer by better men and better lerned also then my selfe/ but that I truste in god it maye amonge the better stande yet in some good stede. And that it so maye to goddes honour and the profyte of some good folke, I hertely byseche our lorde / wythout the adspiracyon and helpe of whose especyall grace no labour of man can profyte/ and to whom therfore be all thanke referred, whyche lyueth and regneth in eternall glorye. To whych as he hath all redy brought many a blessed saynt: so mote his mercy brynge with spede the soules that are in purgatory/ nd gyue vs yt here lyue in this wretched worlde, ayde and helpe of grace by trewe fayth and good workes to folow them, the rather by the intercessyon and prayours of all his holy sayntes ys are all redy wyth hym. AMEN. [Eeiv]  The fyrste boke The preface of Tyndall, wyth the answere vnto the same. Tyndall. THE grace of our lorde, the lyght of his spyryt, to se and to iudge trew repentaunce toward goddes law, a fast fayth in the mercy full promises that are in our sauyour Cryste, feruent loue toward thy neybour after thensample of Cryste and hys sayntes/ be with the (O reder) and with all that loue the trouthe, and longe for the redemp- cion of goddys elect. Amen. More. TINDALL here begynneth wyth an holy salutacyon, and so doth Luther to, and so doth frere huskyne to/ and so doth euery fonde felow of any of theyr sectys. They begynne theyr pystles in suche apostolycall fashyon/ that a man wold wene yt were wryten from saynt Paule hym self. But wolde god they wolde onys rather folow hym truly in fayth and good workes, then in symulacion of lyke sanctyte wyth theyr holy salutacyons. For yf men consyder yt where Tyndal here prayeth holyly for the lyghte of the spyryt to see trew repentaunce/ he then techeth hym selfe a sodayne sleyghte repentaunce/ forbedyng both confessyon & all doynge of penaunce: they shall yf they be good men sett lytle by hys holy salutacyon. And when they consyder that where he prayeth god sende theym a fast fayth/ hym selfe techeth a false fayth agaynst ys sacramentys, and meneth that they shulde be fast in the same: there wyll no good crysten man can hym thank for that holy prayour. And where he prayeth here so holyly for the loue ofye neyghbour/ yf men loke on the loue that ys vsed amonge all the maysters of that hole holy secte, & consyder theyre lyuyngys, and loke vppon frere Luther the very father of theyr hole secte, and se hym ronne out of relygyon, & fallen to flesshe and caryn and lyue in lechery wyth a nunne vnder name of wedloke, and all the cheyfe heddys of them, late monkys & freres, and now apostatas & lyuynge wyth harlotes vnder the name of wyues: he that lokyth on thys and then seeth theym and theyr scolers, as Tyndale here and suche other come forth and speke so holyly/ wolde he not wene that yt were a sorte of freres folowynge an abbote of mysrule in a Christemas game that were prykked in blankettes, and then [aiv] sholde stande vp and preche vppon a stole and make a mowynge sermon. And as lewd sermons as they make in such noughty games, wold god yt these mennys ernyst sermons were not yet mych wurse. But surely as euyll as ys tother be/ yet is there more harme & more dedely poyson to in this one sermone of Tyndalys, as ye shall here or yt come at ys ende: then in an hundred ser- mons of frere Frappe, that fyrste gapeth and then blessyth, and loketh holyly and precheth rybauldrye to the peopell that stande aboute. For there is not the worste thynge that frere Frappe precheth in a lewde sporte: but fader Tyndall here wryteth mych worse in very great ernest, & mych worse then doth the tother abusyth the scryp- ture vnto yt. The tother when he precheth that men may lawfully go to lechery/ he maketh commenly some fonde textes of his owne hed, and dare not in such madde matters medle wyth ye very scrypture yt selfe. But Tyndall teacheth vs in good ernest that freres may walke out and wedde nunnes/ and is neyther aferd nor ashamed to draw ys holy scripture of god vnto the mayntenaunce of abhominabyll synne and seruyce of the deuyll. The tother rybawde in hys fonde sermon medleth but with fleshly vyces and worldly wantonnes. But Tyndall here with an ernest hyghe professyon of godly spyrytuall doctryne teacheth vs a fals fayth & many mortall heresyes, and wolde with scrypture destroye the scrypture/ and amyddys hys ernest holynes falleth in to mokkes and mowes, & maketh madde apysshe iestynge agaynste the holy ceri- monyes and blessyd sacramentys of our sauyour Chryste / & the thynges sanctyfyed wyth the blessyd blode of oure sauyour Tyndall turneth in to scorne. Neuer was there any scoffynge frere Frappe prechyng vpon a stole, that durste play the knauyshe foole on suche a fasshyon as ye shall se Tyndall do here. For yf any sholde / his audyence (were they neuer so wanton) wold yet at suche wordes (yf any sparke of christen zele remayned in theyr hartys) pull downe the rybawld by the skyrte, and breke the stole vppon his hed. And now where as he saluteth vs wyth the lyght of the spyryte, and entendeth to brynge vs in darkenes of the deuyll/ where he speketh of trewe repentaunce, and then wolde put awaye two partes thereof, that is to wyt bothe [ai] confessyon and satysfacyon/ and where he speketh of faste fayth, and then teacheth a false presumptuouse faythe, wyth such truste put in fayth alone that he rekeneth all good workes fruteles and vnprofytable, and that fayth alone suffyseth to saluacyon, how dyuelyshely that any man lyue besyde: we may well perceyue that these that so teache, be wyth theyr holly salutacyons the false ydle prophetes of whome the blessyd apostle Pawle wryteth vnto the Romayns, that by theyr swete blessynges waste oute and emptye the poore wydowes houses. For by such holy salutacyon, as by swete blessynge praynge for them so good thynges as they seme to do: they wynne theyr hartys to assent after to theyr heresyes, and so expell and kyll trew fayth in theyr hartes/ and god so taken from them they make them wydows, & so waste and emptye oute the substancyall vertues of theyr soules. But nowe when he speketh of feruent loue after the ensample of Cryste and his saintes/ as ernest as the matter is, who can forbere laughynge when he seeth ye lecherouse fleshly loue of those freres and theyr nunnes/ wherof tyll Tyndall can tell vs some lyke ensamples of Chryste and his sayntis, that any of them were wonte to breke theyr vowes of chastyte and fall to suche fylthy lechery/ tyll he can tell vs that, we may well tell hym that hys holy prayer of feruent loue here in his prologe/ goeth quyte agaynste his purpose and shameth all his hole boke after. Wherfore good Cristen reders who so shall happen to rede his ernycyous boke, take wysdome wyth you as I dowte not but ye wyll / and be not so ledde wyth a few paynted holy wordes as yt were wyth the beholdynge of a pekokkes tayle but that ye regarde therwyth his fowle fete also / and loke well whyther he walketh and to what ende he speketh, and onsyder hym by the hed maysters, and archherityques of hys ngracyous secte / whych when they haue spoken as relygiousely as he, yet haue as ye see well shamefully shewed them selues open incestuouse harlottes, and that of the moste abhominable sorte deflowrynge relygyous women. And Tyndall hym selfe (which thynge is worse then the dede doynge) maynteyneth in hys boke theyr dede for well done. Tyndall. Oure sauyour Iesus in the .xvi. chapter of Iohan at his laste souper when he toke his leaue of his disciples warned them sayeng the holy goost shall come and re[aiv] buke the worlde of iudgement, that is he shall rebuke the worlde for lacke oftrew iudge- ment and dyscrecion to iudge, and shall proue that the taste of theyr mouthes is corrupte, so that they iudge swete to be sowre and sowre to be swete: and theyr yees to be blynde, so that they thynke that to be very seruyce of god which is but a blynde superstycyon, for zele of whiche yet they persecute the true seruice of god: and that they iudge to be the law of god whyche is but a false imaginacyon of a corrupte iudgement, for blynde affeccyon of whiche yet they persecute the true law of god and them that kepe yt. More How sone myght a pore symple soule be ledde to thynke, that all those that beleue not as Tyndall doth, were in a wronge way and in a false belyeff/ when he heryth Tyndall here lay agaynst them the wordes of our sauyour hym selfe spoken vnto his dysciples in his laste soupper. But nowe they that be lerned and know the place in the gospell, perceyue very well ys Tyndall here synfully doth abuse the holy wordes of Chryste, and manyfestly mystorneth the mynde and sen- tence of our sauyour, folowynge thexample of the deuyll that alleged the scrypture vnto Chryste in deserte. For as the dyuell there falsely wrested ys scrypture of god and leyd yt agaynste god: so dothe Tyndall here wreste the worde of our sauyour agaynst hym self and his hole chyrch, I say his hole chyrche not the clergye onely, but the hole congregacyon of all crysten people- For yt is well knowen that Chryste spake those wordes agaynst the Iewes and Paynyms that refused him and his true fayth/ shew- ynge that ys holy goost at his comyng shold reproue theyr false iudgement and theyr vnsauery taste, that iudged swete sowre & sowre swete, and that he shold teache his chyrche and his congre- gacyon the very truthe and lede them in to all trueth that sholde be necessarye for theyre saluacyon. And this promyse hathe oure sauiour bothe made in the gospell and also fulfylled in dede. For the holy goost hathe not fayled to teache his chyrch all such kinde of truthe from the begynnynge hytherto, nor neuer shall ceace so to do, as well by his owne holy secrete worde vnwrytten in the scrypture, and yet by hym selfe wrytten in chrysten mennys hartys/ as by his holy scripture eyther wryten in tables of stone or in bestes skynnes/ accordynge to his owne wordes spoken as well by ys of ys prophete Ezechiel, as of the blessyd [ai] apostle saynt Paule. These truthes had the apostles, the martyrs, the confessours, the holy doctours of Crystis chyrche, and the comen crysten people of euery age from Chrystes dethe hytherto. And in this comen knowen chyrche of christendome (excepte suche as at sondry tymes haue fallen there from, as Arrius, Pelagius, Donatus, wyclyff, and Husse, & such other/ and now Luther, and Tyndall, and frere Huskyn, and theyr felowes) hath euer the true iudgement remayned & the ryght sauored taste / and neuer loste any of those heretyques these necessarye truthes, tyll the dyuell hadde thorow pryde, enuye, and malyce, made them set naught by the chyrche. And then dyd he caste them forthewyth in suche a feuer that they clene loste theyr taste/ and then dyd they as Tyndall dothe nowe, iudge swete that all chrystendome iudged sowre. And by those truthes and thys fayth alwaye from the begynnynge kept in Chrystes chyrche/ be we now very sure ys thys newe fayth of Luther, Tyndall, and frere Huskyn is very fonde and false, and that thevr mouthes are all out of taaste/ syth that from Chrystes dethe hytherto all holy men, all good people, all true chrysten nacyons, haue sauored alwaye those meatys to be good and holsome, whyche these fonde felowes affyrme now to be bytter & peryllous meate / and haue alwayes affyrmed for vnsauery meate and euyll, suche as now these mad men affyrme to be well seasoned & good/ & haue alwayes hytherto reputed for shamefull and fylthy lechery, the flesshly cowplyng to gether of freres and nonnes, that these losels now do boldely put forth & auowe for good and lawfull matrymonve. If Tyndall graunte that I say trewe in this/ then shall he be fayne to graunte that the wordes whyche he allegeth agaynst vs spoken-by the mouthe of our sauyoure be not spoken agaynst vs that byleue as all Chrystes chyrche hath byleued euer hytherto/ but that they be spoken agaynst hym selfe and his felowys yt byleue ye contrary. And on the other syde yf Tyndall deny me thys, and wyll saye that all good men and goddes electes haue alwaye byleued as he & hys felowes do teache/ and that they haue alwaye taught and done ye same: let Tyndall then tell vs one good honest man, what speke we of honest man? let hym tell vs of ony one so very a starke rybawlde in all this.xv.C. yere afore Luthers dayes and hys, that euer taught that it was lawfull for a [aiv] frere to wedde a nunne If Tyndall shewe you not thys as I wotte well he can not: than be ye very sure that sythe euery holy man before hys dayes hathe taught the contrary and hath had yt in detestac on & he now defendeth yt for good agaynst all good men yt hath bene euer synnys Crystes dayes to hys owne/ how holy a tale so euer he tell you besyde, & how so euer he paynt yt wyth scrypture, wrythen and wrested owte of all good course ye may be sure ynoughe that hys doctryne ys for all ys very starke noughte in dede, and that he meanyth no good/ and that yf he beleue as he teacheth, as I verely beleue he doth not/ hys fayth ys very false. Tyndall. And thys same is it that Paule saythe in the seconde chapter of the tyrste epystle to the Cnrynthians / how that the naturall man that ys not borne agayne and created a new wyth the spyryte of god, be he neuer so grete a phylosopher, neuer so well seene in the lawe, neuer so sore studyed in the scrypture, as we haue ensamples in the pharysies: yet he can not vnderstond the thynges ofthe spyryte ofgod/ but (sayth he) the spyrytuall iudgeth all thynges, & his spyryte sercheth the depe secretis of god/ so that what so euer god commaundeth hym to doo he neuer leuet serchyng tyll he come at the botom, the pyth, the quycke, the lyfe, the spyryte, the marye, and very cause why, and iudgeth all thynge. More. Ye consyder well that Tyndall in these wordes wolde ye shulde wene that these folke of whom saynt Poule speketh in that place/ be such as can not sauour the doctryne of Luther, frere Huskyn, and hym. But then consyder agayn vppone whome hys wordes fall. For ye dowte not nor hym selfe can not denye/ but that hys doctryne ys farre frome ye taste of saynt Austeyne, saynt Hierome, saynt Ambrose, saynt Cypryan, saynt Gregory, and all those olde holy doctours of Crystes chyrche vnto Luthers dayes and hys/ or els as I sayd let hym tell me whyche of all theym dyd not abhorre that a preste shulde wedde a nunne. And therfore thus ye se yt by Tyndalys holy tale there were none of all them were they neuer so gret philosophers, neuer so well seen in ys law, neuer so sore studyed in scrypture/ that cowlde vnderstonde ye thynges of the spyryte of god, bycause they were but naturall men not borne agayne nor created a newe wyth the spyryte of god. How knoweth Tyndale that none of all these that hathe [ai] bene aduersaryes to his doctrine, ys is to wytte of all good men that euer were in crystendome syth Cryste was borne vnto Tyndalys tyme, was borne agayne or newe created wyth the spyryte of god? Howe hym selfe vnderstandeth his hyghe spirytuall wordes I wote nere/ but I wote well that all those holy fathers were reputed for good crysten/ and I wene they were all baptized and borne agayne of water and ys spyryte as our sauyour sayd vnto Nychodemus/ & after yt they lyued well and spyrytually, and dyed well and spyrytually, as apperyth by theyr bookes and hystoryes wryten of theyr lyues, and myracles shewed for them of god after theyr dethys. And vnto suche symple groce carnall peopell as we be/ these thynges seme well to shewe that they were borne agayne of god & new created wyth his spyrite/ and so by Tyndalys owne tale shold seme able to vnderstande the thynges of the spyryte of god. But yet wyll Tyndale none of that. For he lyketh not theyr iudgement/ but he sayth that ys spyrytuall iudgeth all thynges. And where as saynte Paule in the place alledged by Tyndale sayth that the holy goost the spyryte of god sercheth euen the depe thynges of god, bycause that vnto that holy spyryte whych is god there is nothynge of god vnknowen: Tyndale taketh that hygh power vnto his wurshyppefull spirytuall sorte/ sayeng the spyrituall iudgeth all thynges, and his spyryte sercheth the depe secretys of god. And with this not satisfyed/ he amplifyeth and enhaunceth theyr holy serche vppon heyth / and sayth that the spyryte of theyr spirytuall sorte serche the depe secretys of god so far, that what so euer god com- maundeth them to do/ they neuer leue serchynge tyll they come at the botome, the pyth, the quycke, the lyfe, the spiryte, the mary, and very cause why/ and so iudge all thynge. What an hepe of hyghe vehement wordes hath Tyndale here heped vp to gyther? who wolde not wene that he were wyth some holy medytacyon caryed vp in Ennoke and Helyas chare. But yet good crysten reder for all his holy tale / remember agayne the frere and the nunne, Luther and hys wyfe, Tyndales owne mayster and maystres, the chyeff hed & author of his hygh spyrytuall fayth. For Luther ye wote well (yf Tyndale and his felowes be spyrytuall & electys) must as theyr fyrst author of theyr new spyrytuall secte, be nedys one of the very chyef. Let not therfore Tyndall (good [aiv] reder) wyth his gay gloryouse wordes carye you so fast & so far away, but that ye remem- bre to pull hym bakke/ by the sleue a lytle, and aske hym whyther his owne hyghe spirytuall doctour mayster Martyne Luther hym selfe, beynge specyally borne agayne & new created of the spyryte, whom god in many places of holy scrypture hath commaunded to kepe his vowe made of chastyte/ when he then so far contrarye there vnto toke out of relygyon a spouse of Cryste, wedded her hym selfe in reproche of wedloke, called her his wyfe, and made her his harlot, and in doble despyte of maryage and relygyon both, lyueth wyth her openly and lyeth wyth her nyghtly, in shamefull inceste and abomin- able bycherye: dothe he the whyle after Tyndalys hyghe wordes serchg the depe secretys, and neuer leue serchynge tyll he come to the botome, the pyth, the quycke, the lyfe, the spyryte, the mary, and the very cause of that commaundement why, and so iudgeth all thynge? Thus good reders examyne hym/ and then shall ye perceyue how fondly suche an hyghe pure spyrytuall processe, accordeth wyth such a baas fowle fleshly lyuyng. But Tyndale hath an hope that whyle he paynteth his prologe wyth such gay colours of spirytuall vertue: there can no man in the meane whyle remember and con- syder what vngracious frute theyr deceytfull doctryne & false f bryngeth forth. And therfore to carye the reder farther of/ from the remembraunce therof/ he letteth goo by theyr fylthy lechery and holyly speketh of loue. Tyndale Take an example in the great commaundement, loue god with all thyn harte / the spyrytuall sercheth the cause and loketh on the benefytys of god, and so conceyueth loue in hys harte. More. In thys example of the great commaundement of louyng of god/ there can lacke no causes, but wythout any farre serche there offer them selfe ynowe at hande, except men wilfully wyll forget them. But yet all be yt that in many thynges a man may peraduenture well and with frute enserche the cause of goddes commaundementys/ yet may the spyryte of a man that were as spirytuall Luther eyther, and take frere da1e is or them / go some tyme to far in the serchyng of the depe secretys of god, and wade so farre therin / that he shall [bi] fynde these wordes of holy scripture true, He that is the sercher of the maiestye shall be oppressyd of the glorye / and he shall fynde the depe secretis of god so depe, that ys secrete botome wyll not be founde oute for hym / and specyally in that thyng in which Tyndall and his felowes be as I shall hereafter shew you moste presumptuously besye / that is in goddys fynall electis & predestinatys, wherof saynt Paule cryeth hym self, <2O altitudo diuitiarum sapientiae &>2 <2scientiae dei,>2, O ys heyth and depenes of the ryches of the wysedome & science of god. And as for that that Tyndall sayth, that what so euer god com- maundeth the spyrytuall man to do, he neuer leuyth serchynge tyll he come at the botome, the pyth, the quycke, the lyffe, the spyryte, the mary, and the very cause why, and iudgeth all thynges: I say as I sayd byfore it may peraduenture in some thynges do well to con- syder the causes of goddes commaundement, so yt be done moderately and wyth reuerence. But many suche spyrituall persones as Tyndale is and Luther, and frere Huskyn/ so be wonte to reason and serche the cause of goddes commaundementys wyth them selfe as kynge Saul dyd/ or bytwene the dyuell and theym selfe as our mother Eue dyd, that they fall vppon fallacyes and false causes / whereby lyke as Saul was deceyued in sauynge of the bestes for sacryfyce, whych bestes god hadde pre- cysely commaunded hym to destroy/ and Eue was so bygyled that she thought she myght well ete the apple whyche god hadde precysely commaunded her to forbere: so doth I say to, these men that ar in this new fashyon spyrytuall, the dyuell theyr euyll spyryte and them selfe wyth theyr incessaunte serche fynde out false causes, wherof they take occasyon to breke the commaundementys of god/ whyche commaundementys other good seely symple soules wythoute any serche obserue. As for ensample lo where as god hath in oly scrypture euydently commaunded, that who so make a vowe shall performe and kepe yt, as is wryten by the holy Psalmiste, Vowe ye and pay your vowes to our lorde/ and where as our blessyd lady thought her self bounden therto, & all ys holy sayntes synnys Cristes dayes vnto Tyndals tyme, haue with- out any varyance written & affyrmed ys same, & not onely they but also all crysten people both good & badde, haue this.xv.C. yere abhorred as an abominabyle monster, and accompted yt in comen talkynge for suche a prodigyouse cryme that euer [biv] monke or frere shold wedde an nunne, as they thought shold neuer happen in crystendome, & therfore haue alway iested that Antecryste sholde be borne betwene a frere and a nunne: these new spirytuall men haue now, Luther, Tyndall, and frere Huskyn and the dyuell to gyther, so longe enserched the cause of thys commaundement of god, by whych euery man is commaunded to kepe his vowe/ that they haue with longe serche founden oute at laste, that monkes, freres, and nunnes, be not bounden bv that commaundement at all/ but may for all theyr vowe lawfully runne out of relygyon and lye to gyther when thev lyste, and call theyr filthy lechery good and lawfull wedloke. And thus lo good reder these newe spyrytuall men wyth theyr depe serche interprete and expowne holy scripture, and fynde oute therin suche godly vertues as this is whych the olde holy doctours coulde neuer fynde therin for lacke of grace by lykelyhod, for we se well they lacned no wyt & had as mych lernynge as these men haue and ten tvmes more to, and dyd theyr dylygence to/ but they were as yt semvth but naturall onely, not borne agayne nor created of newe wyth the spyryte of god as Luther is and Tyndale & frere Huskvn and hys felowes. Take ensample savth Tyndale in thegreat commaundement, loue god wyth ill thyne harte, the spyrytuall serchyth the cause and loketh on the benefytes of god, and so conceyueth loue in his harte. In these wordes I lay no fawte. But all be yt a man myghte assygne other causes of our loue towarde god then Tyndale doth/ as for en- sample his owne excellent nature and goodnes of yt selfe, worthye to be Joued, lauded, and honored of vs, though we shold yf yt were possyble receyue to oure selfe no benefyte at his hande at all: yet I very well alow the cause that Tyndale allegeth, that is to wytte the consyderacyon of the great benefytys of god/ & yt is a cause of loue in dede both resonable of yt selfe, and also by many a good and vertuouse man alleged and consydered byfore. But yet me thynketh that this consyderacyon of loue affyrmed by Tyndale / dothe confounde both Tyndall uther & all theyr hole secte, in that they hold that yt is not laufull to loue and serue god neyther for auoydynge of payne, nor for obtevnyng of rewarde / callyng this manner of loue and seruyce seruyle bonde and mercennary. This is theyre (bi] comen opynyon, and Tyndale hath yt often as well in this boke as in dyuerse other. But now remember good reder ys Tyndale sayth here the contrary whych I am glad to here hym say. For I am better content ys he say some tyme well then alway naught. And here he sayth ryght well that the respecte of goddes benefytys is a cause of oure loue towarde god, and surely so is yt in dede. For all though ys very good and great excellent nature of god be worthy to be loued of vs and worshypped and serued to, for the souerayne and surmountynge goodnes of yt selfe, though we sholde our selfe take no manner of benefyte thereby: yet may we well haue mo causes of loue, honour, and seruyce ioyned therunto. Yet am I not sure whyther Tyndale wyll saye that I do hym wrong in that I ioyne seruyce wyth loue, where he speketh not of seruyce but of loue onely. But I haue bene bold to ioyne our loue and seruyce towarde god to gyther/ bycause I veryly thynke that Tyndale wyll hym selfe graunt vs, that for what so euer cause yt is lawfull for vs to loue god/ for the self same cause yt is lawfull for vs to serue god. But Tyndale agreeth that we may loue hym for his benefytys/ wherof vt foloweth excepte he say that we may loue for some cause, for whyche it is not laufull to serue hym: els I say muste Tyndale nedys graunte that for goddes benefytys yt is lawfull for vs to serue hv Now yf Tyndale graunte vs that conclusyon/ we wyll then wade with hym a lytle forther, and ioyne therunto that yf yt be lawfull for vs to serue god for his benefytys, which we haue receyued: yt is also lawfull for vs to serue him for his benefytis which we longe & hope to receyue. And surely as the re- specte of his benefytys whych we haue receyued is a good cause ofloue: so is the belvef of hys promysys & hope of his benefitys to come, a good and a great cause of loue towarde hym. Then yf we may serue god for his benefytys to come / yt semeth no dowte but that we may serue hym for to get heuen, whyche is of all benefytys the greateste. At thys poynte wyll Tyndale happely stykke wyth me/ and he well say styfly that fayth we may vse and serue god therwyth, to thentent therewyth to gete heuen/ for fayth his felowes and he affyrme to be the thynge whych onely doth iustyfye vs. But then they say playnly that yf we serue god wyth any other good worke, fastyng, prayer, or almose [biv] dede, to thentent that we may therwyth please god the better or the rather come to heuen: this seruyce is vnlawfull, dys- pleasaunt to god, and playn vnfaythfulnes/ for as mych as we shall as they say be saued onely by Crystes bloode & by oure belyffe in his promyses of the same/ & therfore they call yt playne idolatrye to serue god wvth any good workes for heuen, or to thentent that we myght please god the better therby. For ys thynge they say were as mych as to make oure self Cryste, and to saye that we wolde be our owne sauyours by our owne workes/ and not Cryste by the worke of hys passvon. In this poynte they stycke styffely/ and when they be answeryd that all though we serue god wyth good workes wrought with his gracyous helpe, to thentent to please hym the better therby / as hymselfe hath in many places of holly scrypture commaundyd vs/ & hope also that suche good workes shall the rather helpe vs to heuyn, and that we shall in heuyn be rewarded for theym and for the re- specte of goddes commaundement/ and for thys entent also we do them as Cryste hath also gyuen vs good occasyon, where he saythe that who so gyue so mych as a draught of colde water shall not lese hys rewarde, and where he byddeth vs gyue vnto ys poore to thentent that they may receyue vs in to the eternal tabernacles, and where he sheweth at at the daye of dome men shall haue heuyn for theyr charytable almesse dedes done here in erthe: now when we tell them thus, and that we do neuer the lesse knowlege and confesse therwyth that we neyther do nor can do any good worke wythout the specyall grace & helpe ofgod, and that our deades be commenly so defectyue that though good deades well done be rewardable, yet euery man maye fynde in hymselre great cause to mystruste hys owne, and that we tell them also that all the best ys the best man maye do, is yet no more than hys deutye for euery man is of his deutye bounden to labour for heuyn and to serue and pleasc god aswell and asmych as he maye, and notwythstandynge that we also tell them that the best worke that any man worketh wyth goddys helpe and grace, is not yet rewardable with heuyn orthe nature or goodnes of the worke it selfe, all though he suffred euery daye in a longe lyfe a dowble martyrdome accord- ynge to the wordes of saynt Paule, the passyons of thys worlde be not worthy the glory that is to come that shall be reueled and shewed [bi] vppon vs/ and notwythstandynge that we tell them to/ that all the heuynly rewarde of mannes good workes cometh onely of goddys owne lyber- all goodnes, in that it hath pleased hys hyghe bountye to gyue so great a ryche pryce for so poore and symple ware as are all mennys workes/ & all be it that we tell them also that god wolde not re- warde our workes in such wyse, were it not for the shedynge of hys sonnes blood/ and so we fynally referre all the thanke and rewarde of our good workes, bothe the begynnynge, the progresse, and the ende, effectually to god and the merytes of Crystes passyon/ when we tell Tyndale and Luther all this, yet fare they as though they herde vs not, and styll they synge vs on theyr olde songe that it is ydolatrye to serue god wyth any good workes, to thentent the better to please god therewyth, and the rather to come to heuyn therfore/ and thadt we may not wyth out synne for any helpe to heuynwarde serue wyth any good worke sauynge onely fayth. Yet when we aske them whyther we may not laufully for the same entent serue god wyth hope to: to that thyng they care not to graunte/ but then they confounde the termys of fayth and hope, so as I neyther wote howe nor themselfe neyther. Then yf farther whither it be not laufull to serue god wyth charyte to (whyche now they leue and fall all to lusty loue) wyth intent to get heuyn the rather: to that they let not to graunte also/ but they say the cause is for that fayth they say hath alwaye charyte therwyth. But all be it that in that poynte theyr affyr- macyon is fals, as by reason and pleyne scrypture hath ben often proued vnto them:. that is ynough to me that they graunte that a man maye laufully loue god and serue hym wyth charyte to thentent to be the rather saued and come to heuyn therby. For now semeth me that yf we laufully maye (as Tyndale wyll graunt we maye) serue god with ys vertues of fayth and hope and charyte, or of any one of them wyth respecte vnto goddys benefytes receyued and also to come/ and to thentent therby the rather to be saued & come to heuyn, we may then laufully with lyke respecte, purpose, & intent, serue god wyth any other vertue that procedeth of fayth, hope, & charyte, or of any suche one of them wyth whyche it is laufull for vs for suche respecte, entent, & purpose to serue god: then wyll not Tyndale denye but that prayer, fastynge, almesse dede, and contynence and clennesse of body, penaunce, [biv] trouble of the mynde, wyth sufferauns of trybulacyon or a~yccyon of the flesshe wyllyngly taken, wyth many other outwarde and inwarde workes/ may procede offayth, hope and charyte. Wherfore I can not se but that Tyndale as he graunteth here ys we maye serue god wyth loue, entendyng thereby to please hym and be sauyd the rather: so must he nedys graunte and agre that lykewyse may we wyth lyke entente and purpose serue wyth all other workes aboue remembryd, procedynge of a faythfull workynge charyte/ wherof he and all hys fonde felowes in euery place holde hytherto the contrary. And thus haue I now playnly deducyd vppon Tyndals owne wordes the full confusyon of hys owne comen conclusyon, so many tymes by hym and hys felowes obiected, and among them all neuer onys yet well prouyd nor neuer able to be proued, agaynst the profyte of good mennys chrysten workes/ for chrysten be theyr prayers, theyr fastynge, and theyr almosse dedys, when they be done in fayth, hope, and charyte, and in the state of grace. Tyndall. And when he is commaundyd to obay the powers and rewlers of the worlde/ he loketh on the benefytes whiche god shewyth the worlde thorow them and therfore doeth it gladly. More. In this obedyence Tyndale is yet content to haue a respecte to the benefytes that god worketh and shewyth the worlde thorow the powers and rewlers of the world, & putteth that for eyther the onely or the chyefe cause of hys obedyence, as he putteth it for the onely or chyefe cause of goddys commaunde- ment. In whiche kynde of obedyence semeth not the greatest vertue, when a man obeyeth onely for hys owne aduauntage / but the very chrysten obedyence is to obaye specially for that god so commaundeth, and not so to serche and lymyte the cause of goddes commaundement/ as he may therby take hymselfe & gyue to other an easy bolde occasyon to dysobaye, re- syste, and rebell agaynst theyr hedys and rulers, pretendynge that they be not profytable. Thys thynge meanyth Tyndale as it apperyth by hys wordes here in the cause of hys obedyence, to the powers and rulers of the worlde/ & as it apperyth in dyuers other places of hys workes and Luther his maysters to. But god all though he wyll that the gouernours and rulers of the [bi] world sholde be good and profytable to the people/ yet wyll he not that the people shall measure the dewty of theyr obedyence by the oncly rule and measure of theyr owne profyte and commodyte / but that they shall obaye theyr prynces and other rulers and gouernours, bycause that they be theyr gouernours and rulers, and bycause that god hath so commaunded. For yf they may measure theyr obedyence by ys measure of theyr owne profyte as Tyndale telleth vs: they shall sone seke occasyon of sedycion, and therof do themselfe also more harme in one daye then sholde theyr ruler in many yeres, all were he ryght vnprofytable in dede / as apperyd by the vplandysshe Lutherans in Almayn, whyche measur- yng theyr obcdyence by Tyndalys rule gyuen them before by Tyn- dalys mayster / became all vnrulye and dysobeyd and rebellyd agaynst theyr rulers, and therby dysobeyd goddes commaundement, and brought therby the vengeaunce of god vppon theyr owne heddys, to the slaughter of aboue foure score thowsand of them in one som- mer, & the remenaunt the worse entreated euer syns/ and that hath made Luther and Tyndale a lytell to retreate syns and set a new glose therto yt wyll but shrewdly serue them as I shall shewe you when I come to the place hereafter in hys boke. Tyndall. And when he is commaunded to loue his neyghbour as hymselfe/ he sercheth that hys neyghbour is created of and and bought with Crystes blode, and so forth. More. Loo thys is very louyngly spoken, & he sayth very well/ and l praye god that he be one of those spyrytuals that so doeth, but surely many places in euery boke that he writeth seme clerely to declare ys he hath another maner of spyryte then suchea spyryte of loue. And yet were it herde excepte ys goddys commaundement gyue vs that warnyng/ ellys wyll it be somwhat herd for any man vppon the other two causes by any serche to perceyue that he were in reason bounden to loue another aswell as hymselfe though they maye serue to loue hym ryght well. Tyndale. And therfore he loueth hym oute of his harte. And yf he lie euyll forliereth hym and wyth all loue and pacyence draweth hym to good as elder lirotheren wayte on the yonger and serue them and suffre them/ and when they wyll not come they speke fayre and flater and gyue some gaye thyng and promyse fayre, and [biv] so drawe thern and smyte them not/ liut yf they may in no wyse bee holpe, referre the ponyshement to the father and mother, and so forth. And by these iudgeth he all other lawes of god and vnderstandeth the true vse and meanyng of them/ and liy these vnderstandeth hee in the lawes of man whych are ryght and whyche tyrannye. More. Vseth Tyndale and his spyrytuall mayster thys maner of loue, this forberynge, and this maner of pacyens towarde the pope and the clergye, and towarde prynces and other temporall rulers? we se perde thorow all theyr bokes in what lowly louynge fashion they serue and suffer them, and how fayre they speke, and how plesauntly they flater afl holy catholyque crysten people sauyng onely theyr own secte, with as venemouse wordes and as poysen speche as the dyuell can dyuyse them, wyth all the meanes they may to sow dyuysyon and dyssencyon and set the people in sedycyon/ & vnder colour of true fayth to brynge them in heresyes and destroye both bodye and soule. But Tyndale wold now yt we shold for the whyle forget all that he and his mayster wryteth ellys where, and hym selfe in many placys ye cam not there nor neuer entended harme nor ment any such mater/ or as your mayster dyd in Almayne to put your selfe out of suspycyon, crye to the contrary parte to kyll them downe hande smothe, whom your owne wordes raysed vp and synfully set a worke. And lo thus hath Tyndale connyngly declared the grete com- maundement of loue, and by hym selfe and his felowes as ye se so louyngly put in vre, that they wolde helpe the tother parte to all the myschyefe they myghte/ and wolde that on the tother syde what so euer they do them self be it neuer so myscheuouse, no man sholde ones chyde them nor gyue fowle wordes / but in theyr deuylyshe dedys forbere styll & suffer them, and take them then as younger brothern lytell babys vntaught, and gyue them fayre wordes and pretye proper gere, ratylles & cokbelles and gay golden shone/ and yf the wantons wyll not lerne yet, but byte & scratche theyr felowes / bete not the babys yet in no wyse, but go and tell theyr mother and so forth. And when Tyndale hath thus connyngly declared the greate commaundement of loue, and hath so spyrytually set it out to the shew: then concludeth he well & worshypfully that by thys com- maundement of loue in suche a wyse waye vnderstanden, his <2spyrytuall sorte iudgeth all the lawes of god, and vnderstande the>2 <2true vse of>2 <2them/ and by the same if lykewyse vnderstande the all the lawes ojman which>2 <2are ryght and whych tyrarny>2. For by thys they vn[ci]derstande that for the loue that they bere to theyr own wyll/ euery glose that they gyue them selfe is the ryght meanyng of the worde of god, and all that all other holy men haue wryten is but fantasyes and false. And in mennis law to let them bete other men for saynge trueth, were well ordeyned and ryghte/ but any man to chyde onys any of theym for a hondred heresyes, that were vtter wronge and no lawfull law but playne tyrannye. Tyndale. If god sholde commaunde hym to drynke no wyne as he commaunded in the olde testarnent, that the prestes sholde not when they rnynistred in the temple and forbade dyuerse metes: the spyrytuall because he knoweth that man is lord ouer all other creatures, and they his seruauntis made to be at his pleasure, and that yt is not commaunded for the wyne or meate yt selfe that man sholde be in bondage vnto his owne seruaunt the inferiour creature/ ceaseth not to serche the cause. And when he fyndeth yt is to tame the fleshe and that h be alway sober/ he obeyth gladly, and yet not so supersticio the tyme of his disease he wolde not drynke wyne in way of a medycyn to recouer his helth, as Dauid ate of the halowed brede, and as Moyses for necessyte lefte the chyldern of Israel vncircuncysed, and were yet thought to be in no worse case than they that were circun- cised, as the chyldern that dyed wythin eyght days were counted in as good case as they that were circuncised/ whyche ensamples rnyght teache vs many thinges yf there were spyryte in vs. More. Now cometh he to those thynges whyche he taketh for indyfferent/ that is to wyt of theyr nature neyther good nor euyll, but takynge theyr goodnesse or theyr euyll of commaundement or prohybycyon and of the mynde of the doer wyth cyrcumstances of the dede/ & in these thynges he speketh as one that wolde we shulde wene that hys hyghe spyrytuall wysdome had a very depe insyghte in that he tellyth vs as a newe straunge tale, that neuer man had herd byfore, that the inferyour creatures be subgettes to man and not man to them. But now this truthe laboreth he to make a fals ground to byelde his lyes vppon. For by this he wolde haue vs wene that we were at lybertye to construe and interpretate all commaundementes eyther of Crystes chyrche or of Cristes owne mouth immedyate, after our owne swete wyll, when so euer we can fynde out any false glose of the commaundement to flater and begyle our self withall. As here yf god sholde commaunde hym to drynk no wyne as he commaundyd in the [civ] olde lawe whyle they mynystred in the temple: he wolde anone serche for the cause. And then he sayth that he sholde fynde the cause to be for tamynge of the flesshe and to kepe hym sober, and then for that cause he wolde obay the commaundement gladly, but yet not so super- stycyously but that in tyme of hys dysease he wolde drynk wyne to recouer his helthe / & therof he layeth ensample of Dauid & of Moyses. But what auayleth hym all thys tale? For we deny not but that the worde and precept of god receyuyth interpretacyon. But we say that the authoryte therof lyeth not in euery mannys hed at aduen- ture/ & that all though some thynges be playne and open inough, yet it is peryllous for any man except certeyn reuelacyon of god, to take hymselfe for so far forth renewed wyth ys spyryte of god, that he boldely lene in such thynges to hys owne wyt leste hys wyll blynde hys wyt/ but let vs lene therin vnto the iudgement of the olde holy enterpretours passed, and specyall to the sense receyued of the hole catholyke chyrche, not the chyrch of onely electys whyche chyrche no man can knowe, but vnto the catholyke knowen chyrche of all crysten people saue heretykes / whyche catholyke chyrche what so euer Tyndale saye can neuer fall in dampnable erroure. For yf a man leue these wayes and boldely cleue to a cause of hys owne serchyng: he is well lykely to breke the commaundement. As here Tyndale presupposeth yf god wolde hymselfe forbedde all men wyne vppon certeyne dayes, or commaunde them certeyne dayes to faste: here wolde Tyndale anon as a man spyrytuall en- serche the cause why god wolde commaund hym so/ and then wolde he fynde that the cause were but onely to tame the flesshe and to kepe men sober, & therfore wolde he obay it. But now by thys facyon yf god gaue Tyndale a commaundement wherof Tyndale cowde fynde no cause at all/ he wolde not do it at all. lf our father Tyndale had ben in paradyse in the stede of our father Adam/ he sholde neuer haue nedyd any serpent or woman eyther to tempte hym to eate the apple of the tree of knowledge. For when god had forbed hym the eatynge therof vppon payne of deth, as he forbedeth vs lechery vppon payne of dampnacyon: then wolde he haue serched for the cause of the commaundement. And when hys wyt wolde [ci] haue founden none bycause the flesshe had there no need of tamynge: then wolde he haue eaten on a good pace, & haue thought that god almyghty had but played ys wanton with hym, and wolde not be angry wyth hym for an apple/ and so wolde he by his owne rule of serchyng haue founde oute as myche myschyefe as the woman and the serpent and the deuyll and all. And surely now to by thys spyrituall rule of enserchyng of the cause of fastynge and forberyng meate, and fyndynge the cause to be none other but for tamyng of the flesshe and sobernes/ who so euer thynke hymselfe to the synnys of the flesshe not mych inclyned as some of nature are not, nor by moderate drynkynge of wyne any thynge dysposed to dronkennesse: shall interprete hymselfe dys- charged of the commaundement, and shall drynke wyne and shall breke hys faste at his pleasure / or yf he forbere wyne or kepe ye faste, he shall at the vttermoste kepe it but for a countenaunce, and as they wryte themselfes in auoydynge the slaundrynge of suche as haue a weke conscyens and wene themselfes bounden to ys kepynge therof. And therfore when they haue kept the faste in syghte/ they shall not force to breke all those fastes pryuely, where the weke con- scyences of other symple soules are absent and no body by them, but suche as are all spyrytuall and haue a conscyence stronge inough to breke the stronge faste vppon good fryday wythout grudge of con- scyence at all. And afterwarde lytell & lytell they shall when they be suffryd amende also and make stronge in the lorde the weke con- scyences of theyr syk brethern, and make them breke all the fastyng dayes to, wyth laude and thanke gyuen to the lorde that by hys electe prechers in these latter dayes of thys blynde worlde, that coulde not on fastynge dayes fynde theyr meate/ hath now illumyned thevr eyghen and gyuen them lyght, by whyche they haue founden the waye in to the crysten lybertye of eatyng, drynkynge, and honeste lykynge lechery, from the bondage and thraldom of all fastynge dayes and all professyd chastyte. For to thys ende we se that theyr spyrytuall doctryne hath all redy brought it in Saxony/ for there is now the lent all turnyd in to shroftyde. And there it well apperith all though it were true that Tyndale sayth, that fastynge were of god ordeyned for none other cause but onely to tame the flesshe: yet was it nede for the chyrche to do as it hath done by the [civ] spyryte ofgod, ordayne and appoynte certeyn comon fastyng dayes in whyche the people sholde faste together. For ellys yf there were no suche/ the moste parte of the ow in ys comon fastes do tame the flesshe togyther by the commaundement and laudable custome of the chyrche of god, wolde fynde very few dayes therfore of theyr owne mynde, and maay not one thorow the hole yere as ye now se it in Saxony, where they that were woont to faste many, faste now neuer a one. And surely yf fastynge were not profytable, done of any other deuocyon but onely serued for tamynge of the flesshe, and then the custome taken awaye of comon fastyng dayes, in whyche folke faste togyder in obedyence of the commaundement, & those comon dayes taken away/ folke were onely lefte to theyr owne lybertye and pryuate secrete conscyens, to chose theyr fastyng dayes theyr selfes, not of any other deuocyon but onely for tamynge of theyr flesshe, when them selfe fele it begynne to boyle: then many wedded men sholde nede few fastynge dayes to theyr payne, hauynge theyr remedy so pleasaunt and so present alway redy at hande, and then wolde many an honest mayden be ashamed to faste any daye at all, leste she sholde seme therby to gyue yonge men warnynge that she were waxe warme and byd them yf they wyll spede, speke now. But Tyndale with hys spyrytuall felowes are fallen in to thys foly by the lykynge of theyr owne luste, in fauoure wherof they synfully studye to fynde out fals gloses, to be open glotons wythout reproche/ and also wyth the prayse of suche people as theyr false doctryne hath corrupted and brought in a wronge bylefe, contrary to all doctryne of all the olde holy doctours, and agaynst all holy scripture, euyn the very gospell it selfe and the very wordes of Cryste, by whyche not onely all crysten people hytherto but also the iewes haue from the begynnyng ben taught to byleue, that mannys fastynge hath ben pleasaunt to god for other causes then Tyndale wolde haue it seme, that sercheth and seketh onely the meanes to breke it. Tyndale and hys mayster be wonte to crye owte vppon the pope and vppon all the clergye, for that they medle phylosophy wyth the thynges of god/ whyche is a thynge that mayin place be very well done, syth the wysdom of phylosophy all that we fynde true therin, is the wysdom gyuen of [ci] god, and may well do seruyce to hys other gyftes of hygher wysdome then that is. But Tyndale here in this place as it semeth, doeth lene vnto the olde naturall phyloso- phers all togyther. For as for abstynence to tame the flesshe from intemperaunce and fowle lustes also, thys was a thynge that many phylosophers dyd bothe teache and vse. But as for fastyng, that is a nother thynge whyche god hath alwayes amonge hys faythfull people had obserued and kepte, not onely for that purpose, but also for a kynde of payne, afllyccyon, and punysshement of the flesshe for theyr synnes, and to put vs in remembraunce yt we be now in the vale of terys and not in the hyll of ioye, sauynge for the comfort of hope. And all be it ys Tyndale be lothe to here therof, bycause he wolde not that any man sholde do true penaunce wyth puttynge hymselfe to any payne for hys owne synnes/ yet wolde god the contrary. And as he wyll that men for theyr synnys sholde be sory in theyr hartes/ so wolde he that for ys same cause the sorow of theyr hartes sholde redownde in to theyr bodyes/ and that we sholde for the prouocacyon of goddys mercy, humble our selfe before hym/ and not onely pray for for- esse but also put our bodies to payne and afflyccyon of ourgyuene owne selfe, & therby to shewe how heuely we take it that we haue offended hym. And to thentent that we sholde well knowe that fastyng not onely for tamyng ofthe flesshe, but also for payne to be taken for our synnys, was pleasaunt vnto hym: he taught hys people by hys prophetes that they sholde faste, and appoynted them certen dayes. lt apperyth also that fastynge was & is pleasaunt vnto god, when men do for deuocyon to god not onely forbere theyr pleasure, but also parte of theyr necessary sustynauns, in occupyeng ye tyme of vsuall fedyng of ye flesshe about the plenteouse norysshyng & spyrytuall pamperyng of ys soule. Also vnto ye obtaynyng of great spyrytuall gyftes of god & hygh reuelacyons, how specyall a thynge fastyng is/ bothe our sauyour declareth hym selfe in ys gospell of Matthew, where he sayth ys that kynde of deuylles which he dyd caste out of the chylde is not caste out but by prayour & fastyng. And of all these thynges we haue in holy sayntes lyues so many examples, that it were ouer longe to reherse them. But for as mych as we se well yt Tyndale maketh but mokkys of all such maters, and all theyr holy reuelacyons and [civ] myracles taketh but for tryfels: we shall sende hym to loke better vppon the good bokes whyche hym selfe hath euyll & of euyll purpose translated, the bookes I mene of the holy scrypture it selfe. For therin shall he se that fastynge serueth not onely to tame the fleshe/ but for all these good vses also that we haue spoken of before, and yet for many other mo. And there shall he specyally se the thynge that he is moste lothe to let you se/ that fastynge and other bodely afllyccyon eyther taken by commaunde- ment of god and hys chyrche, or wyllyngly taken of our owne good mynde done for our synnys, done in true fayth and deuocyon wyth purpose of amendement, is one of the very specyall thynges that obteyne remyssyon of the synne, releace of the more gettynge greater grace & increace of goddys fauour/ whych thynge is ys same that he & his felowes do so sore oppugne, that ys whole chyrche of Cryste prestes and laye men bothe, call satysfaccyon / not meanynge that we can do penaunce inough for our synnes, nor that we coulde do any thynge therof at all wythout helpe of grace, nor that all that we can do coulde be wurth a flye to heuenwarde wythout Crystes passyon/ but that wyth helpe of grace and merytys of Crystes pass- yon, our good workes well wrought, helpe to gete remyssyon and urchase vs pardon and releace of payne, and may well be done for that intente, and be by god ordeyned to serue vs to that intente/ and for that cause be they by the chyrche called satysfaccyon, for the deuour yt we shold do to punysshe at the full our offenses our selfe, that god therby ye rather moued wyth mercy shold withdrawe his great heuy punyshe- ment, whych elles he shall cause to be done vnto vs hym selfe, and not so sore yf we iudge and amende our fawtes our selfe/ accordyng to the wordes of the blessed apostle to the Corynthyes: If we iudged our selfes, we sholde not be iudged of our lord. And surely yf we iudge our self truly, we shalbe content to punysshe our selfe. And that fastyng is one of the good workes that bysyde other good & great godly purpose serueth for satisfaccyon of synne & procuryng of remyssyon, grace, and pardone/ & that it serueth not onelyfor the tamynge of the flesshe as Tyndale here wolde haue it seme: ye shall se to manyfestly proued by many playne placys in euery parte of scrypture. Fyrst the fastes that Moyses fasted fyrst for the law, and alter for the synne of the peple and the synne of Aaron also/ [di] were these fastes for nothynge but for to tame his flesshe? Item in ys .xxi. chapiter of the thryde boke of kynges, when Achab had herd these wordes, he tare his garmentis and put on his bodye a shyrte of here, he fasted and slept in a sacke, and went hangynge his hede lowe done/ and our lorde sayd to Helyas Thesbites, hast thow not sene how Achab hathe humbled hym before me? And therfore bycause he hath humbled hym selfe for my sake, I wyll brynge no euyll in durynge his lyfe. Doth yt not manyfestly appere by these wordes that kyng Achab fasted not for tamyng of his flessh to kepe yt from wyldnes, but he fasted for ys selfe same cause for whych he ware here and slepte in a sacke, that is to wyt to humble him selfe afore the face of god, and to do penaunce in punyshynge hym selfe for his synne to moue thereby almyghty god to mercy, & to the wyth- drawyng of his hyghe punyshement, whyche ellys he fered wolde fall vppon hys hede / whych punishement god at the respecte of the kynges humble penaunce and payne of fastynge and other afliccyon wyllyngly taken by hym selfe, dyd mercyfully wythdrawe from hym, so that in all his dayes he suffred hym to fele no parte thereof. And so may ye se this place of scripture euydent & playne agaynste Tyndale, and that very repentaunce requyreth of the repentaunte person not onely tamynge of the flesshe agaynste the synne immynent or to come, but also punyshement by fastynge and other afflyccyon for the synne all redy done. And now Cryste hath to cristen men promysed of our synnes forgyuenes, and of our payne releace by vertue of hys payne/ but this meaneth he to them that set not theyr owne synnes at so lyght after his great kyndnes shewed, but that theyr own selfe shewe by theyr owne wylfull punyshement worthy to suffre payne also them selfe therfore, and then his payne hath gyuen theyr payne the lyfe ys maketh yt quycke and auaylable, not entendynge yet that hym selfe so sholde take payne that the synners them selfe sholde synne at theyr pleasure and be saued all wyth ease as Tyndale & Luther wolde make vs wene. For that were the way to make men wanton and wax very bolde in synne. Forthermore in the fyrste boke of Esdras and the.viii. chapyter yt is wryten thus in the person of the people: we haue fasted and prayed to god for this (yt is to wyt for helpe [div] agaynst our enymyes) & yt is comen prosperousely to passe. Ye may here clerely se this pestylent opinyon of Tyndale wyth few wordes confuted. For this faste was not for tamynge of the flesshe, but for auoydynge of theyr parell. Agayne in the seconde boke of Esdras and the fyrste chapiter thus sayd Nehemias: when I had herd such tydynges, that is to wyt how the walles of Hierusalem were throwen done, the yates burnt, and the chyldern of Israel in great affliccyon and mysery: I sat downe and wepte and mornyd many dayes, I fasted also and prayed afore the face of the god of heuen. Lo this faste was not for to tame the flesshe/ for the man was in heuynes far from such wanton thynges: but he fasted as he wept and mornyd, to moue god to mercy. Also the great preste of god Eliachym sayth in the.iiii. of Iudith: Knowe ye that our lorde shall heare your prayers yf ye contynue in fastynge and praying in the syght of hym. I suppose no man is of so symple wyt & vnderstandyng, but he may at the bare rehersall of this brief texte well perceyue yt Eliachim dyd not esteme fastyng as Tyndale doth, nother toke yt not onely for a tamynge of the flesshe, but for a meane also to purchace grace wyth remyssyon & pardon, and also to obteyne ayde and helpe of god in that great necessyte. Is not the.iiii. of Hester also clene contrarye to the doctryne of these deuelyshe prechers of fleshly liberty: Go and assemble (sayth that good quene) all the Iewes that thow fyndest in Susan, and praye ye for me. Eate ye not nether drynke not in.iii. dayes and.iii. nyghtes. And I lykewyse wyll fast wyth my maydens. Wolde she that they sholde forbere mete and drynk to the intent that by theyr fastynge they myght tame her flesshe? nay nor for the tamynge of theyr own neyther. But that by theyr deuoute fastynge and her maydens and her own/ they myght prouoke our lorde to pytye them and preserue them from that immynent parell that they were then all in. What sayth Toby? Prayer (sayth he) ioyned with fastyng is good. He sayth not this onely for yong lusty folke for tamyng of theyr flesshe in auoydyng of intemperaunce, for good crysten fastynge goeth sometyme farre aboue the naturall temperaunce/ but he teacheth all men that may wythoute harme to ioyne wyth prayer ys payne of fastyng, as a thyng [di] pleasaunt vnto god in such wyse as the prayer is/ and yt is a secrete inwarde effectuall prayer when the payne of all the bodye repentynge and punyshynge the synne, cryeth to god for mercy wyth voyce of the mouth. In the.xxxiiii. chapyter of Ecclesiasticus yt is wrytten: The man that fasteth for his synnes and agayn commyteth the selfe same synnes, what auayleth hym this humilytye. Wherby yt is well vnderstanden that he whych fasteth & amendeth hym selfe/ his faste auayleth and is profytable. And wherfore? not onely for tamyng of his flesshe, for that may be tame inough and yet the man bad inough, but yt auayleth for remyssyon of synne and for meryte in heuen. For as holy saynte ustayne saythe. To saye that the faste of a crysten man shall haue no rewarde in heuen is not the opynyon of a true crysten man, but of an heretyque. The prophete Iohel in the seconde chapyter: And therefore now sayth the lorde, turne to me wyth all your herte in fastynge, wepynge, and weylynge. Tere your hertes & not your garmentes, and so forth. Lo here the prophete exhorteth to fastynge as he doth to harty mornynge and wepyng, not for a countenaunce of sorow, but to be sorofull & to take payne in dede/ not in theyr clothes where they fele yt not, but in theyr bodyes and inwardely in theyr hertes where they fele yt thorowly / so that they may therby not onely tame theyr flesshe, but also turne agayne to god, that he may take pytye vppon them and turne agayne to them. Rede we not in the thyrde chapitre of the prophete Ionas, that god seynge the Niniuytes chastyse and punyshe them selfe wyth fastynge and other afflyccions voluntaryly done vnto them selfe / dyd mercyfully take quyte away the great and greuous punyshement that was at hande ordeyned by hym selfe for theyr synnes and offenses? wherfore dyd they faste? for to tame theyr flesshe as Tyndale sayth? Nay/ they fasted and dyd penaunce for theyr synnes, & therwyth purchased pardon whych Tyndale wyll not perceyue. I coulde here alledge vnto you crysten reders other textes owt of the holy prophetes and other places of scripture/ as the fyrst chapyter of Iohel, the .ix. of Danyel, the xxxvi. of Hyeremy, the.xx. of Iudicum, wyth an hundreth places mo very stronge for vs in thys mater of fastynge/ but these few may seme to many for a thynge so manyfest and clere. How [div] be it I wyll alledge vnto Tyndale the wordes of our sauyour hym selfe wryten in ys.xvii. of Matthew, where he sayth: Thys kynde of deuylles is not cast out but by prayour and fastynge. The holy euangelyst Luke in the.xiiii. chapyter of the apostles actes wryteth thus: when they had ordeyned them preestes in euery chyrche and had prayed and fasted / they commendyd them to the lorde in whom they beleuyd. Here may ye clerely se good crysten reder, that the holy and blessyd apostle Paule with many other mo/ dyd not fast in thys place for the subduynge of the flesshe and tamynge of bodyly lustes. For they fasted here for other folke, that is to wyt for the prestes to whom they had gyuen holy orders, and for the people whom they had commyt- tyd vnto theyr charge / that god for theyr deuoute prayours and fastynge sholde gyue encreace of hys grace and fauour among them. Fynally what wyll Tyndale say to the wordes that are wryten in the.vi. of Matthew, and spoken by the mouthe of our sauyour Iesu Cryste, where he sayth: when ye faste make not your selfe sadde lyke hypocrytes, for they waste out theyr faces to ys entent it myghte be perceyued that they faste. Forsothe I saye vnto you they haue theyr rewarde all redy. But when thou fastest anoynt thy hed and washe thy face, that it appere not vnto men that thou fastest but vnto thy father whyche is in secrete. And thy father that seeth in secrete, shall rewarde the openly. Lo dooth not our lord here promyse to rewarde all them that for no desyre of mannys prayse or itch of vayne glory, but of mere humylyte & true repentaunce of herte punysshe theyr body wyth fastynge. Whyche one place beyng so playn open & manyfest for the meryte of fastyng though it myght haue ben more then suffycyent to confounde Tyndale and his mayster Luther with all theyr scollers: yet haue I bene therin the longer and haue spoken of thys mater sumwhat the more at large, for ys manyfestacyon of theyr greate blyndnesse, and as it semeth malyce to mennys sowle/ and for the comforte of them that hytherto haue had the mynde to punysshe the flesshe wyth fastyng, that they do not herafter as vnthryftes haue in Almayne done all redy, leue of theyr deuocyon to god for the fonde bablynge of suche sensuall heretykes. For yf Tyndale wyll saye that yet all thys was no thynge but to tame the flesshe, that the menne myght praye the more quyetly wythout rebellyous mocyons of ys flesshe/ [di] what so euer he shall say therin consyder the placys and his wordes to gyther, and ye shall fynde all hys processe therin a fayre tale of a tubbe. For all be it that Cryste fasted fourty da gered/ yet whyther Moyses hun ereh his fourty daies or not we be not very sure. And it semeth well that he dyd, for he wolde not of lykelyhed haue told it for any greate thynge that he fasted for the synne of Aron, & also for the synne of the people so strayghtly fourty dayes that in the whyle he neyther ete nor dranke/ yf he neuer had in the whyle ben neyther an hungred nor a thurste. How be it yf Tyndale wyll brynge all these fastes in questyon: yet of the Nineuites & ys other aboue rehersed there is no maner of dowte but yt they fasted in hunger & thyrste. And it were in dede a madde thynge to thynke that when they went about to punyshe theyr synnys and humble them selfe before the face of god with fastynge/ they fasted but tyll they were a hungred and then gate them to brekfaste. If he wyll saye that the payne of the fastynge was onely to tame theyr flesshe that they sholde not synne, he can not so say/ for it appereth that they dyd it wyllyngly as well for theyr synnes before passed as for dyuers other causes. If he wyll say that there was dyfference bytwene the repentynge in ys olde law and the new, and that there was cause why they sholde punysshe theyr synnes them selfe and not we, bycause Cryst hath now done penaunce for our synnys and had not at that tyme so done for theyrs: it wyll not serue hym, bothe bycause dyuers of the authorytees for fastynge be alledged in the new law, and also bycause the Iewys had the profyte of Crystes passyon by theyr fayth that it was to come & sholde be done, as we haue by ys fayth that it is passed and all redy done/ and theyr repentaunce and our repentaunce were lyke, sauynge our pryuylege of more habundaunt grace & perdon by the sacrament of penaunce whyche Tyndale goeth about to destroye. If he wyll saye that the fastynge serueth but to kepe the mynde calme and quyete in prayour, from all mocyons of flesshely lustes that ellys myghte trouble the mynde: to thys I say that the hungre it selfe maye trouble the mynde and make it lesse quyete, then yf the flesshe were in temperat reste without it. And ouer thys hys answere in that poynt wyll not serue, syth it apperyth well by the cyrcumstaunces in many of the places before towched, yt many whych fasted were not in such ease of herte nor lust of body, [div] that theyr prayours were at that tyme lykely to be letted wyth voluptuouse wanton myndes. Wherfore let Tyndale say what he wyll: ye shall fynde for trouth that bysydes the tamynge of the body, fastynge and our payne taken therin pleaseth god done with deuocyon, and serueth vs for obtaynynge many and greate gyftes of grace. Nay sayth Tyndale in hys boke of obedyence as for payne takynge, god is no tyraunt / and therfore reioyceth not in our payne, but pytyeth vs/ and as it were mornyth with vs and wolde we sholde haue none, sauynge that lyke a good surgeon he putteth payne of trybulacyon vnto the sores of our synne/ bycause the synne can not otherwyse be rubbed owt of the flesshe and cured. We saye not neyther that god reioyceth in our payne as a tyraunt, all be it that Luther and Tyndale wolde haue vs take hym for such one as had more tyrannouse delite in our payne, then euer had any tyraunt/ when they by the takyng awaye that god alone worketh all our synne, and then dampneth hys creaturys in perpetuall turmentys for hys owne dede. But we say ys god reioyceth & delyteth in the loue of mannys herte, when he fyndeth it suche as the man inwardly delyteth, & in hys herte owtwardly to let ys loue of his herte so redownde in to the body, that he gladly by fastynge & other afflyccyon putteth the body to payne for goddys sake/ and yet thynketh for all that, that in com- paryson of hys dutye all that is mych lesse then ryght nought. We saye also that god reioyceth and delyteth in iustyce/ & for that cause he delyteth to se a man so delyte in the same, & to take hys synne so sorowfully that he is content of hym selfe by fastyng and other afflyccyon wyllyngly to put hym selfe to payne therfore. And I saye that yf god had not this delyte whyche is not a tyrannouse but a good and godly delyte/ elles wolde he put vnto man no payne for synne at all. For it is playne false ys god doth it for necessyte of dryuyng ys synne owt of ys flesshe as Tyndale sayth he doth, bycause that otherwyse it can not be cured. For it is questyonlesse that god can otherwyse dryue the synne owte of the flesshe, and by other meanys cure it yf it so pleased hym/ & so wolde he sauynge for his godly delyte in iustyce whyche he loueth to se man folowe by fastynge and other penauns/ & whyche delyte of folowynge goddes pleasure therin, Tyndale in maner by wythdrawyng of penauns clene goeth aboute to destroye. [di] Now where Tyndale as a spirituall ensercher of ye cause of euery commaundement of god, dyd in reprouynge the superstycyouse maner of them, that wythout suche a depe spyrytuall serch do kepe goddys commaundement strayghtely: brynge in the examples of Dauyd and hys company which for necessyte dyd eat of the offred halowed brede wherof by the law he sholde not, and of Moyses also leuynge the chyldren contrary to the commaundement of god.x1. yere vncyrcumcysed in desert/ he endeth that mater with thys greate weyghty worde: <2these ensamples myght teche vs many thynges yf>2 <2there were spyryt in vs.>2 What thinges ys euyll spyryt yt inspirith Tyndale teacheth hym I can not tell. But of any good spyryt he lerneth no ferther in these ensamples, then that in necessyte Moyses ye leder of the people vnder god, and beynge also the preest of god, dyspensed wyth the people in deserte in delaynge ys cyrcumcysyon for parell of sodeyn trauell ther vppon, tyll they sholde come where they myght reste vppon it. And ys Achimelech the preste in lyke wyse for necessyte dyspensed wyth Dauyd and hys seruauntes, that they myghte eat of offred halowed brede/ and yet wyth greate dyffycultye, but yf they were clene from any late commyxcyon and carnall knowledge of theyr wyuys. And of that poynt myghte Tyndale yf he had a good spyryt in hym/ lerne at the leste wyse one thynge agaynst the bold- nesse of his wedded harlottes, monkes, and frerys, that from theyr fylthy lechery go so boldely not to ys halowed brede, but to the body of god in forme of brede. But Tyndales spryte techeth hym to be bold therin, and to byd euery frere boldely breke hys vow and the commaundement without any necessyte or dis- pensacyon at all/ sayng that freres may no more lyue without nunnes then Dauyd myghte wythout meate. Tyndale. And lykewyse of the holy daye, he knoweth that the daye is saruaunt vnto rnan/ and therfore when he fyndeth that yt is done because he sholde not be let frorn herynge the worde of god, he obeyth gladly/ and yet not so superstycyously, that he wolde not helpe his neyghbour on the holy daye and let the sermon alone for one day/ or that he wold not worke on the holy day nede requyrynge yt, at suche tyrne as men be not wonte to be at chyrche. More. Here Tyndale teacheth vs hygh spyrytuall doctryne, ys chrysten men sholde not be to superstycyously holy on the [div] holy daye/ wenynge that they myghte do no bodyly worke for necessyte. But the people for aught that I se/ knowe yt well inoughe and more to. But yet to make them the more bolde: he teacheth them that the holy day is seruaunt vnto man, that he maye therfore be bolde vppon the holy daye as vppon hys owne seruaunt to vse it as it please hym. But yet all be yt that Cryste sayde vnto the Iewes that the sone of man is mayster and lorde euen ouer the sabooth daye, to vse yt as hym selfe lyste, whych neuer lysted to vse yt but to the beste: yet can I not well se that Tyndale is in suche wyse mayster and lorde of the sabbooth daye, nor no man elles, that he may vse yt as his man, though yt was of god instytute for man and not man for yt / that is to wyt for the spirytuall benefyte and profyte of man as our sauyour sayth also hym selfe. But yet he calleth yt not seruaunt vnto man as Tyndale calleth yt. For ys scrypture sayth that god hath sanctyfyed the sabbooth day vnto hym selfe. And that was the cause why that Criste shewed vnto the Iewes that hym selfe was lorde of the sabbat daye, bycause he wolde that they sholde thereby knowe that he was very god/ syth that they had lerned by scripture that the sabbat daye was sanctyfyed onely to god hym self for mannys profyte and no man lorde therofbut onely god. A gouernour of people is made for the people and not the people for the gouernour/ and yet is there no man amonge the people wonte to call the gouernour his man, but hym selfe rather the gouernours man. The very manhode of our sauiour hym self was to some purpose ordeyned for mankynde, as the incarnacyon of his godhed was ordeyned for man/ but yet vseth no wyse man to call Cryste his seruaunt, all be yt hym selfe of his mekenes dyd more then serue vs. But we wyll not mych stykke wyth Tyndale for a worde somewhat wrested a wrye/ so that we wyste he ment no harme therby. But I fere me more of his meanyng, leste he wold bryng holy dayes and workynge dayes all in one case. For as for doynge our neyghbour good, and also the workyng for our owne necessyte/ the necessyte may be such that the chyrch denyeth yt not. But who so do inter- prete his necessyte ouer large, or dyfferre vnto the holy daye the worldly workes whyche he myght and sholde haue done vpon the workyng daye byfore, or may as well do yt after, and yet wyll worke yt on the holy daye, and therby wyll for his parte brynge yt [ei] in ome to wythdrawe the reuerens from the holy daye & makecusto workynge day therof: this man hathe in my mynde mych nede to consyder Sal- phat, whych for lyke vsynge of the holy day, gatherynge wood on the holy day yt he myght haue done on the workynge daye/ was by goddes owne iudgement stoned vnto deth. And I lyke Tyndale in this mater ys worse, bothe for his wordes in his other bokes, and for the custome of his secte now growen in Germany, and also for the onely cause that he fyndeth out here for the kepyng of the holy day, of which he putteth no mo but the onely hearyng of the word of god/ so that by the cause whyche he fyndeth out, a crysten man ys were eyther in deserte or amonge infydeles where he coulde here no prechyng, sholde haue no more respecte vnto Crystmasse day or Ester day, or whytesontyde, to kepe them for holy dayes hym selfe, then the worst day in the yere, or then wolde a turke hym selfe. And this is his hyghe spirytuall doctrine concernynge the holy daye. Tyndale. And so thorow out all lawes, and euen lykewyse in all ceremonyes and sacramentes / he sercheth the sygnyfycacyons and wyll not serue the visyble thynges. It is as good to hyrn that the preste say masse in his gowne as in his other apparell, yf they teache hym not sornewhat, and that his soule be edyfyed therby. And as sone wyll he gape while thou puttest sand as holy salt in his mouth, yf thou shew hym no reason therof/ he hadde as leyffe be smered wyth vnhalowed butter as anoynted wyth charmed oyle, yf his soule be not tought to vnderstande somewhat therby and so forth. More. Lo good crysten reder this holy spirytuall man, at laste I wyste well wold somwhat shewe hym selfe, what goostly spyryte inspireth hym. For here you se for all his holy salutacyon at the begynnynge, wyth gay wordes of grace & lyght and fayth and feruent loue: he bloweth and blustreth oute at laste his abhomynable blasphemy agaynst the blessyd sacramentes of Cryste, and lyke the deuyls ape maketh mokkes and mowes at the holy ceremonyes, that the spyryte of god hathe so many hundred yeres taught hys holy catholyque chyrche. And here perceyue yet the false wylynes of the deuyll in vtterynge of his dreggys and poysoned draught. He couereth his cuppe a lytle and shadoweth the colour of his enuenemed wyne, that yt may be dronken downe gredely ere the [eiv] parell be perceyued. For he maketh here as though he founde no faute, but in that the sygnyly- cacyons of the sacraments be not opened and declared vnto the people, as though yf that were done he were contente/ and that he mokketh not the sacramentes but the mynysters that openeth not the bytokenynges therof. But I shall fyrste shewe you that he playeth the deuyls dysor euyn in this poynte, all though he ment no ferther/ & then shall I farther shewe you what myschyef he meaneth more, and proue yt you by expresse wordes of his owne. Fyrste I saye yt is a lewde and a knauysshe raylynge vppon the sacramentes of our sauyour Cryste, to lyken and compare them in any maner wise vnto such scornefull thynges, as the anoyntynge wyth holy oyle vnto butter smerynge, wyth other suche lyke knauysshe toyes whyche no wreche wolde do but such as hath the very name of the holy sacramentes in hatereth and dyspyte. Now where he sayeth that his holy spirytuall sorte wyll alway so vyllanousely esteme the sacramentes, but yf men tell them the reasons and bytokenynges of them to the edyfyenge of theyr soules:. yt wyll be great besynes and mych a do to edyfye and buyld vp the soules of such a sorte, which the deuyll hathe by the blaste of his mouth throwen downe so depe and frusshed all to fytters. But I praye god to whom nothynge is impossyble / to byeld them onys agayne vppon ys rokke of his fayth, from whiche they shew them self so farre fallen down ys they be full vnlykely to ryse. For truly ifthey stode theruppon theyr hertys wolde abhorre to vttre suche frantyque fantasyes. For as touchynge the sygnifycacyons and bytokenynges of the blessed sacramentes, the lacke of knowlege wherof Tyndale wolde make seme a suffycyent cause of his vilanouse blasphemy: all good peple that haue the vse of reason and come to these sacramentes wyth good deuocyon, be taught and do thynke and conceyue in theyre hertes, that god was incarnate and borne god and man for our saluacyon, and suffred his passyon, and dyed for our redempcyon, and that we were redemed to heuen wyth his blessyd blood, and that wythout hym we sholde neuer haue ben saued but had vtterly loste heuen by the synne of Adam/ and for this cause we call hym our sauyour and beleue that he hath promysed vs that yfwe be crystened and kepe his holy commaundementes, and for the brekyng be sory and turne [ei] agayne by penaunce/ god wyll brynge vs to heuen that he hath promysed vs and bought vs to. And they beleue that he hath ordeyned here holy sacramentes, whych he wyll that we shall receyue wyth reuerence, and that euery man wyth those sensyble sacramentes excepte the faute be in hym selfe, receyueth some in- warde grace & ayde of god by the merytes of Crystes passyon and by his holy promyse and ordinauns / so that vnto all good crysten men the out- mentes and holy ceremonyes of crystes chyrch, by one generall and comen sygnyfycacyon of them all, by- token and do sygnyfye and that ryght effectually, an inwarde secrete gyfte and inspiracion of grace effused in to the soule wyth the receyuyng of that holy sacrament by the holy spirite of god. This comen sygnifycacyon of the sacramentes haue all ye comen- altye of crysten people/ & they beleue not onely that the sacramentes be tokens of suche grace and do sygnifye it, but also be in some maner wyse a meane to come to the getynge therof, bycause god hath so ordeyned. But vnto Tyndale & his holy spirituall sorte, this gere is yet to groce for theyr subtyll thynne wyttes. For that all crysten people haue this fayth and sygnyfycacyon of sacramentes, Tyndale can not denye them/ but if he lyste to bylye them. But why trow you can not this sygnifycacyon serue Tyndale? veryly bycause he byleueth yt not/ for he byleueth not that any ceremonye or sacrament eyther is in the worke therof any meane to get any grace at all. And in almoste all the sacramentes he playnly saythe that they neyther cause any grace nor any grace do sygnifye, nor be no sacramentes at all/ as by his owne wordes I shall hereafter shew you. But in the meane while for as mych as in his preface here he maketh as though he cared but for the declaracyon of ys tokens and sensyble sygnes of the sacramentes and ceremonyes: I haue shewed hym the great and chyef sygnifycacion of all/ that is to wyt that they betoken the insensyble grace that god geueth them in to the soule thorow the merytes of Crystes holy passyon. And this is the very chyef sygnifycacyon that all holy doctours note & marke in the sacra- mentes/ as apperyth by the dyffynicyons that in theyr bokes they geue therunto. But nowe wyll not Tyndale sette a strawe the more [eiv] by the anoyntynge wyth holy oyle / then by smerynge wyth vnhalowed butter, but yf men tell hym some ferther thynge therby that may edyfye hys soule and make it better. For as for grace edyfyeth not his soule/ for god byeldeth not so fast therwyth as hym selfe helpeth the deuyll to pull it downe agayne and cast it quyte away, so that it is neuer the better. And therfore he wyll ys hys holy spyrytuall sorte shall set all the holy ceremonyes and sacramentes at naught, but yf men can tell them what other specyall thynge is ment by the water of baptysme, and by the oyle in confyrmacyon and eneylynge, and by the cerymonyes of the masse, and by the salte, and by the asshes, and by the holy water, & by the blessynge of all suche maner of thynges/ vppon all whych for ye mean whyle tyll all thys be tolde & taught hym, he thynketh ys it becometh hym well agaynst crystes holy sacramentes to ieste and mokke and mow and rayle and skofe and ryally playe the rybawld resemblyng the salte to sand and the holy oyle to smeryng of some bareld butter. Ah blasphemouse beste to whose rorynge and lowynge no good crysten man can without heuynes of herte gyue ere. Nowe can men and do also for the more parte ofthese thynges gyue good causes and playne open reasons, bothe of the sygnyfycacyons and of the spyrytuall profyte and bodyly bothe. And yf that of any suche sacramentes or ceremonyes gyuen of olde by god vnto his blessyd apostles, and by them delyuered vnto hys chyrche, and therin euer synnys fro hand to hand contynewed / it hath pleased the spyryte to let his people haue and enioye the profyte wythout dec- laracyon of the specyall betokenynge, other then the secrete grace gyuyn them therin: is not Tyndale wene ye well ouer seen to mocke the sacrament and refuse the grace, bycause god wyll not make hym so secret of hys counsayll as to tell hym why he toke such an owtward sygne rather then suche an other/ and then aske god almyghty why he wolde rather haue vsed for a ceremonye salte then sande whyle sande is so good a scorer, and why rather asshes then erthe syn man was made of erthe and not of asshes, and why in baptysme rather water then wyne whyle wyne wyll wasshe as clene, & why rather oyle then butter whyle ys tone wyll smere aswell as ys tother wyll anoynte, and then why rather an halowed candell then an vnhalowed torche ys wyll gyue more lyght, and fynally why any bodyly ceremonyes or sacramentes at [ei] all, about grace to be gyuen to the spyrytuall sowle that god myghte aswell do wythout/ and yf god lyste not to make Tyndale an answere and tell hym all thys gere: then wyll he lyke a spyrytuall man set all suche bodyly ceremonyes & sacramentes at nought/ and say god what he wyll, Tindale wyll glose hys texte as it please hym, and then byleue as he lyste who shall let hym. When our lorde in ys olde testament escrybed so seryously all the apparell of the preestes/ dyd he tell the people therwyth all the causes why? Of sume we se that he dyd, as why he wolde not haue Aaron ascende vnto the awlter by degrees. But of all hys. apparell, and all the fasshyon of the tabernacle, and the awlter, and the arche of the testament, and the ceremonyes of the expiacyon or purgyng of the taber- nacle, and sanctyfyeng of all the vessels, and consecratynge of the preestes wyth the rytys and ceremonyes of all theyr sacryfyce: dyd god I saye tell the people what all the outwarde ceremonyes sygnyfyed? nay, nor what sygnyfycacyon had the sacrament of cyrcumsycyon neyther, other then that who so obserued it not amonge them sholde fall in hys indygnacyon and therby perysshe, and who so fulfylled it sholde be in hys fauour and ascrybed therby in to the nomber of hys electe and peculyer chosen peple. But why he rather wylled them to haue the marke and token of cyrcumsicyon then an other, or why that in the tabernacle, arche, and awlter, apparell, sanctyfyeng, and sacryfyce, our lorde chose those outward sygnes and fasshyons that are wryten in Exodo, Numeri, and Leuitico before other, or what he sygnyfyed and ment by euery of the same: that I se not that god taughte ye people/ and yet had they thanke for the kepynge, and sholde haue ben shent for the brekynge. Now yf our spyrytuall father Tyndale had ben there, yt in euerv commaundement wyll neuer cease serchynge tyll he come to the very botom and so iudgeth all thynge / when he sholde in all those  thynges haue serched and sowght and cowlde fynde few thynges other then allegoryes, of whyche dyuerse men dyuersly diuyne, and all whyche he lyttell setteth by, and sayth they proue nothyng/ and the very causes and sygnyfycacyons he cowlde not haue founden though he wolde haue mused out hys brayne: then wolde he not haue set a rysshe by all that god had deuysed nor wolde haue kept it at all, lest he beynge so spyrytuall sholde haue ser[eiv]ued as he sayth visyble thynges. Is not here a wyse worke of Tyndale? But he wyll happely say that in the olde law thys was lesse mater/ for that was the law that was all in shadowes and darkenes of fygures. But now in the law of lyghte in whyche the veyle is taken away and all set open: Tyndale can not abyde it to be ignorant of any sacrament or cerymonye of any thynge set therby, but yf he serche and fynde the vttermost sygnyfycacyon therof. Surely as lyghtsome as it is, and as open as all thynge is now that the veyle of the temple is withdrawen: yet wyll not Tyndale fynde out the proper causes and sygnyfycacyons of these sacramentes and ceremonyes of the olde law, thys seuen yere seuentene tymes tolde. But go me to the new law & to those sacramentes which Tyndale agreeth for sacramentes, whyche be onely twayn, baptysme and the sacrament of the awter / in whych though he be content to call them sacramentes, yet hath he dyuerse full erronyouse opynyons and very fals faythes. But begynne therfore as I sayd at baptysme, when our sauyoure shewed vnto Nichodemus that except a man were borne agayne of water and the spyryte, he cowlde not enter in to ys kyngedome of heuyn: he tolde hym there the necessyte of baptysme, but not the proper sygnyfycacyon of the water why it pleased god to put it for the sacra- ment, by whyche we sholde enter in to heuyn. Nor when he sent hys disciples to go forth and baptyse: he shewed them not as farre forth as the gos- pell telleth, for what proper sygnyfycacyon god set the water in that sacrament before any other thynge/ but onele shewed them that so he wolde it sholde be, & bad them go shewe it and do it. Nor I fynde not that in theyr baptysynge, they shewed vnto the people that thyng, that bycause water wassheth and clenseth, therfore god had appoynted it vnto the sacrament that wassheth and clenseth our soules. And yet who so shall say that the water hath for that cause a conuertyent syrnylytude for the rnater/ shall saye very well. And he shall also saye well, that wyll saye as doth the holy apostle Paule, where he lykeneth the baptysme to a kynde of beryenge wyth our lord in hys sepulcre, and the rysynge out therof to a kynde and maner of risyng agayne with our lorde in hys resurreccyon in to a new marter & kynde of clene lyfe. And when he sheweth that the brede is made one of [ei] many greynes or cornes, and the wyne made one of many grapes. he toke a very conuenyent allegorye and symylytude and sygnyfy- cacyon where vppon he myghte shewe that all we chrysten people that are made pertycypant of that holy brede and that holy wyne, chaunged and turned in crystes holy flesshe artd blood (of whyche twayne euery one is euer more with the other) ought of many men to be made as one and in Cryst and with Cryst our hed, encorporate all in one rnystycall body. But yet though these thynges be meruelously well sayd and other thynges mo bothe haue bert and may be founden, that may be well alleged for good and conuenyent sygnyfycacyons of those two sacramentes: yet doth not ys apostle tell vs that those sygnyfycacyons be the very thynges and the onely propretees for appoynted those outward sygnes of water in the tone sacramenet and brede and wyne in the tother byfore all other sensyble thynges, of whiche he myght haue made the outwarde sygnes of those sacra- rnentes yf it had lyked hym. But as the hygh knowlege of god for saw all those propretees that haue ben founden, and all that any man cowlde fynde forther therin: so saw he many moo peraduenture whyche no man hath founden yet, and wherof he hath made no man of hys counsayle / no more then why he wolde haue any vysyble token at all in the thynge whyche he cowlde haue perfytly done wythout them and in many personys hath so done and doth. And therfore Tyndale taketh an euyll way to stykke vppon that poynte so styffely, that he letteth not wyth open blasphemy to say that he had as leue sande as holy salte, and be smered wyth vn- halowed butter as anoynted wyth the holy chrysme, whyche he cal- leth charmed oyle, bycause god wyll not shewe hym euery-specyall thynge that they sygnyfy besyde the generall sygnifycacyon of inuysyble grace, for that is comonly taught all redy, and euery specyall sygnyfycacyone that the scrypture expresseth is openly preched also. And bysydes that, suche sygnyfycacyons as are not there expressed & may seme conuenyent for them, be bothe taught and wryten. What wyll Tyndale aske more? But no reason can contente hym/ for he sayth playnly, <2that who so>2 <2euer do not vnderstande all the sygnyficacions of all the outwarde sygnes in the>2 <2sacramentes.: yt were as qood to leue the sacramentes vnmynystred vnto hym as>2 <2mynystred.>2 Where vppon yt foloweth where so euer [eiv] at an Ester the people sholde be houseled, all be yt that they be taught and do byleue that in ys forme of brede is the very holy body of our sauyour Cryste hym selfe, and that yf they receyue hym wyth vnbylyef oute of hope or oute of charyte, and be not in peace and crysten loue wyth all people, or entende to kepe styll & contynew in any dedly synne, they receyue theyr housell to theyr harme and parell of dampnacion/ and yf they receyue yt the contrarye wyse, they shall receyue of god great spirytuall grace therwyth, thorow goddes holy ordynaunce by the merytes of Crystes passyon / and so haue geuen them such good counsell and exhortacyon farther as the pore preste can: yet thynketh Tyndale that except he tell them ferther other sygnifycacyons of the sacrarnent, the peple were as good vnhowseled as howseled. But god be thanked he is eyther deceyued or lyeth. Now foloweth yt also that yf the sacrament were as good vn- mynistred as mynistred to who so euer is not taught the proper sygnifycacyons of the outwarde token in the sacrament, as Tyndale here vnder a blasphemous iestynge fasshyon telleth vs: then foloweth yt I saye that there was neuer chylde crystened synnys crystendome fyrst begane, but that yt hadde bene as good to haue lefte it vn- crystened, and neuer to haue let water touche yt, bycause yt coulde not be taught what the water sygnifyed. And let hym say what he wyll, but how so euer he couer and colour yt for the whyle/ surely so wold he haue yt. For whyle he goth aboute to geue all our saluacyon to fayth alone, and to take all grace & all meryte vtterly from all outyard workes, and yet seeth that he may not boldely at the be- gynnyng vtterly dyspyse baptysme nor ys blessed sacrament of the auter: he wolde go fyrst as nere yt as he may. And therfore reiectynge the remanaunt by and by/ he suffreth them twayne to tary for ys whyle. But he wyll haue them serue but for bare sygnes & tokens, and sayth that they profyte nothynge, but onely by the declaracyon of theyr sygnifycacyons. And thereby meaneth he fyrst that where so euer occasyon of such declaracyon fayleth: there the sacrament sholde serue of nought. And so ye se that as for chyldern he wolde haue none baptysed in dede/ and that thynge ones obteyned, wythin a whyle after no more he wolde no menne neyther. Lo thus ye se to what a dyuelyshe ende Tyndals tale commeth, wyth his rebauldouse raylynge vppon ys sacramentes, [fi] all though he ment no worse then he maketh for here in his preface/ in which he wolde peraduenture seme to meane none other, but ys the sacra- mentes coulde serue of nought, excepte theyr proper sygnyfycacyons were declared and taught to them that receyue them, other sygnify- cacyons or otherwyse declared then they haue ben wonte these many hundred yeres to be. Wherin if he ment but so/ yet haue I shewed you manyfestly that he hath a very frantyke foly therin. But to thentent that ye shall not be so deceyued by hym: I shall shewe you farther that he meaneth yet mych worse / & that he meaneth vtterly as he playnly sayth/ ys of the.vii. holy sacramentes fyue be none at all, & that thoder twayne be nothynge frutefull neyther. And ye shall farther well perceyue, yt Tyndale hym selfe in neyther nother of the twayn, that is to wyt neyther in baptysme nor in the sacrament of the auter/ doth byleue a ryght. For the clere perceyuynge of all whych thynges / I shall reherse you his own wordes wryten in diuerse places of his abhominable boke of obedience. And fyrste wyll we speke of these fyue whych he sayth be no sacra- mentes at all / that is to wyt confyrmacyon, penaunce, order, matrymony, and anelynge. Tyndalc. That they call conflrmacyon, the people call byshoppynge. They thynke that yf the byshope butter the chylde in the forhed, that than yt is safe. More. If I sholde here call Tyndale by a nother name, yt were no nyk name at all/ and yet wolde there some then say, that yt were not honest so to do/ & this wyll some such folke say, as in the vyllanouse wordes of his spoken by this blessyd sacrament, wyll fynde no faute at all. But me semeth surely that at the fyrste herynge of such a shamell worde spoken by the mouth of such a shamelesse heretyque by this holy sacrament of Cryste: the hole crysten company present, sholde not be able to contayne them selfe from callyng hym knaue all wyth one voyce at onys. Now where as there be for ys sacrament both of confyrmacyon & of holy orders, open & manyfest places in holy scrypture, aswell in the actys of the apostles as in the pistles of saynt Paule / by whych placys yt apperyth aynly that by the apostles handes layd vpon them whych were before ba t sed they had the holy goost geuen in them/ and by thandes of saynt Paule layd vpon Tymothee in makyng him prest, [fiv] he receyued of god a specyall grace wyth that holy order /and lykewyse the deacons by the puttynge of the apostles handes vppon them in the gyuynge them that order: Tyndale telleth vs in his boke of obedyence that all this is nothynge, and that the laynge of the apostles handes vppon them was but a maner of the countre, as a man putteth his hande here vppon a boyes hed and stroketh yt when he calleth hym good sone. Were not the tyme well loste that were spent vppon Tyndale in allegynge holy scripture to hym, yt can fynde in his herte thus to gyue yt a mokke in stede of an answere? he sayth that the scripture and the sacraments be not both of one authoryte/ but he maketh them bothe a lyke when he mokketh them both a lyke. Of matrymonye. Tyndale. Matrimonye (sayth he) was ordeyned of god for an offyce, wherin the husbande serueth the wyffe, and the wyfe the husbande. It is ordeyned for a remedye and to encreace the world, and not to sygnyfye any promyse that euer I herd or redde of in the scripture. It hath a promyse that we synne not in that state, yf a man take his wyfe as goddys gyfte, and the woman her husbande lykewyse/ as all manner of meate hath a promyse that we synne not yf we vse them mesurably wyth thankes to god. lf they call raatrymnnye a sacrament, bycause the scrypture vseth the syrnylytude of matrirnonye, to expresse the maryage or wedloke that is bytwene vs and Cryste: so wyll I make a sacrament of musterd seed, leuen, a nette, kayes, brede, water, and a thousande other thynges. More. This holy sacrament of matrymonye was bygonne by god in paradyse, and whych when he bygan, he there instytuted to sygnyfye the coniunc- cyon bytwene hym selfe and mannys soule, and the coniunccyon bytwene Criste and his chyrch / for whych saynt Paule sayth that yt is a great sacra- ment, and for such euer more hath yt bene taken in Crystes chyrche. And though in those whyche for his sake forberyth yt he coupleth hym self to theyr soules with more grace: yet in that couplyng of matrymonye (yf they couple in hym) he coupleth hym selfe also to theyr soules wyth grace, accordynge to the sygne that is to wyt the maryage whyche he hath set to sygnyfye that grace/ and wyth that grace yf they applye to worke therewyth, he helpeth them to make theyr maryage honorable, and theyr bedde vndefyled. And wyth that grace also he helpeth them towarde the good educa[fi]cyon and bryngynge vp of such chyldren as shall come bytwene them. And to this effecte wayed that holy essynge that god gaue our fyrst father and mother in paradyse/ whyche blessynge reason wyll yt we take and vnderstande to haue bene geuen by god, accordyng to the kynde ofthem that yt was geuen to/ that istowytteto worke notin thebodve onely of reasonable folke, but mych more effectually to exercyse his strength in the resonable soule. Where as Tyndale wyll that goddys blessynge was no better to mankynde then to the kynde of dogges and cattes/ wherby sholde yt allmoste folowe that in generacyon vsed onely for respecte of goddys commaundement, had ben towarde god no more meritoryouse then to those other kyndes of brute bestes, the gettyng of a whelpe or a kytlynge. And where saynte Paule for those holy sygnifycacyons sayth that matrymonye is a great sacrament, Tyndale dare say nay to his teeth/ and sayth he can make as good a <2sacrament of leuen, ofkayes,of>2 <2mustard seed, or ellys of a net.>2 He sholde rather yet leste the grace get oute perde make yt of a sakke. But there is no grace therin sayth he. And why say we. Bycause sayth he that god hathe none promysed. Whereby wote you yt saye we. For I neuer redde yt in scrypture sayth he. Where rede you then in scripture say we that god hath made you a promyse that he neuer made promyse nor neuer none wolde make, but he wold fyrste sende you worde by wrytyng? What Tyndale can saye to this I can not tell. But tyll he can say better to this then euer hym self or his mayster eyther could say to yt yet, or euer shall saye whyle they lyue/ euery man may sone se what menne may say to hym. Luther yet in his boke of Babilonica, where he sayth as Tyndale now sayth that matrymonye where saynte Paule sayth yt is a great sacrament, hath no grace nor is no sacrament: he answereth saynt Paule well and pertely and sayth, that saynte Paule sayrd yt peraduen- ture of his owne hed not of goddes spiryte. Then when the kynges grace had answered hym, and that he saw that for aught he could do men wold beleue saynt Paule better then hym, & that styll folke toke matrymony for a sacrament, and that they thought that to faythfull folke god wyth that holy knot gaue grace towarde the kepynge and ordeyned yt hym selfe so to do: he swore then in great anger and made a great vowe that he [fiv] wolde playnly proue the contrary, and ranne out of religyon and wedded fleynge cate his nunne, to shew to the world hym selfe a matrymonye of his owne makynge, that was neyther any holy sacrament nor had any grace therin. And tyll that Tyndale do ys same as he sayth prestes both may & muste: he shall neuer any other waye proue his conclusyon trew whyle he lyueth. Of the sacrament of aneylynge, these be his wordes. Tyndale. Aneylynge is wythout promyse, and therfore wythout the spyryte, and without profyte, but all to geder vnfrutefull and superstycyouse. More. Here is a shorte sentence and a false erronyouse iudgement gyuen by Tyndale, vppon all crysten people that haue ben aneyled synnys crystendome fyrst began. And he is ledde therto by two specyall motyues/ the tone foly, the tother falsshed. For of hys foly he rekeneth hym selfe sure euery thyng to be false that is not euydently wryten in holy scrypture / whyche one thynge is the tone halfe of all the fals fundacyon wheruppon Luther and Tyndale haue bylded all theyr heresyes. For vppon thys Tyndale sayth there is not any promyse of thys sacra- ment wryten in scrypture: ergo there was no promyse made by god. Whyche argument is so good, that euery boye in scolys laugheth it to scorne & well they may/ for all the worlde can neuer make it good. Hys other motyue is falsede, whyche is the antecedent of the same argument/ that is to wyt that thys sacrament hath no promyse in scrypture. For it hath an expresse promyse in the epystle of saynt Iamys/ where he byddeth that yf any be syk, he shall induce the preestes to come and praye for hym and anoynte hym wyth oyle, & the prayour of fayth shall hele the syk man/ and yf he be in synne they shall be forgyuen hym. Nay sayth Tyndale here we maye se that the arteylynge doth nothynge/ for saynt Iamys sayth that the prayour of fayth shall hele the man. Thys is a sure argument. Lo, bycause saynt Iamys geueth the great effecte to the faythfull prayour: therfore the oyle doth nothynge at all. If it do nothynge at all towarde the remyssyon of synnes: why wolde saynt Iamys haue it there, that myght sauyng for the sacrament as well be thens as there/ except that Tyndale wene that saynt Iamys were so wyse in naturall [fi] thynges, that he thought oyle a mete medycyne for euery sore. Thys place in saynt Iamis dyd so preace vppon Luther/ that he was fayne to say that the epystle was neuer of saynt Iamys makynge, nor nothynge had in it of any apostolycall spyryt/ but he that so sayd was full of an apostatycall spyryte. Of the sacrament of penauns. Tyndale. Penauns is a word of theyr owne forgynge, to deceyue vs with all. More. Here ye se that the sacramertt of penauns he setteth at lesse then nowght/ for he sayth it is but a thynge forged and contryued to deceyue vs with. But euery good crysten man knoweth that such folke as he is, that agaynst the sacrament of penauns contryue and forge suche false heresyes/ sore deceyue them selfe, and all them whom the deuyll blyndeth to byleue them. Now when he hath spoken his pleasure of the thynge: ye shall here what he sayth of the partes. Of confessyon. Tyndall. Shryft in the eare is verely a worke of Sathan, and that the falseste that euer was wrought, and that moost hath deuowred the fayth. More. If the deuyll sholde hym self syt & deuise to speke spyghtfully/ what coulde he say more lyke hym selfe agaynste this parte of the holy sacrament of penauns, then he now speketh by the mouth of thys hys holy spyrytuall man. Here hathe ben a shrewd sort of crysten folke thys.xv. hundred yere/ yf euery man haue serued Sathan all ys whyle they were a shryuynge. Ye maye se now to what perfeccyon thys gere groweth wyth Tyndale. Luther yet that was Tyndales mayster, as lewde as he is, played neuer the blasphemouse fole agaynst confessyon so farre yet as Tyndale doth. For Luther all be it he wolde make euery man and euery woman to, suffycyent and meately to serue for a confessour: yet confesseth he that shryfte is very necessary and dothe mych good, and wolde in no wyse haue it lefte. But Tyndale amertd- eth the mater, and sayth it is the very worke of Sathan/ & they therforc serue Sathan and worke hys worke yf they shryue them selfe secretly and [fiv] speke softely at ys preestes ere. But by lykely- hed he meaneth that yf they speke owt lustely that euery man may here them, all is well inough. For wyll waw forbade rownyng. Of satysfaccyon. He wyll that we shall for oure synnes nomore but onely repente. For as for goynge about to punysshe our selfe any thynge for oure owne synnys, by penauns doynge, wyth fastynge, prayour, almeyse dede, or any bodyly afflyccyon that god maye haue the more mercye vppon vs, whyche thynge all good chrysten people haue euer vsed to do, and whyche the chyrche calleth satysfaccyon: thys thynge Tyndale calleth as ye shall here. Tyndale. Synne we thorow fragilyte neuer so ofte, yet as sone as we repent and come in to the ryght waye agayne, and vnto the testament whych god hath made in Crystes blood: our synnes vanysh awaye as smoke in the wynde, and as darkenes at the commynge of lyght, or as thou cast a lytle blood or melke into the mayne see. In so mych that who euer goeth aboute to make satisfaccyon for his synnes to god warde, sayeng in his herte, thus mych haue I synned, thus mych wyll I do agayne, or this wyse wyll I lyue to make amendes wyth all, or this wyll I do to gete heuen wyth all: the same is an infidele, faythlesse, and damned in his dede doynge, and hath lost his parte in Crystes blood, bycause he is disobedyent vnto goddes testament, and setteth vp a nother of his owne imaginacyon, vnto whych he wyll compell god to obey. If we loue god: we haue a commaundement to loue our neygh bour also, as sayth Iohan in his pystle. And yf we haue offended hym to make him amendes/ or yf we haue not wherewith, to aske hym forgyuenesse, and to do and to suffer all thynges for his sake to wynne hym to god and to norish peace and vnyte: but to godwarde Cryste is an euerlastynge satisfaccyon and euer suffycyent. More. The begynnyng of these wordes seme very godly, for ys magny- fyeng of the great mercy of god. But consyder ys hed, the myddes, and the tayle to gether, & ye shall sone perceyue that he bosteth mercy, but to make a man haue so lytell care for hys synne and maketh hym selfe so sure of sodayne and short remyssyon, that he shall forse full lytell how sone he fall therto, when he beleueth that how often so euer he synne or how sore, there nedeth hym no more but onely bare repentauns, and then all forgeuen and forgetten synne and payne and all euen by and by an hundred tymes in a daye. Neyther purgatory nede to be fered when we go hens, nor penauns nede to be done whyle we be here/ but synne and be sory and [fi] syt and make mery, and then synne agayne and then repent a lytell and ronne to ys ale & wasshe away the synne thynke ones on goddys promyse and then do what we lyste For hopynge sure in that, kyll we .x. men on a dye we cast but a lytell blood in to the mayne see. But he that setteth so mych by hys synne and is so sory therfore, that to prouoke our lord to mercy the more by punysshynge hym selfe, and takynge payne therfore, eyther of hys owne mynde or by penaunce enioyned: he is a starke heretyke, it were euyn almese to burne hym. For he that wyll take any payne for his owne synne/ weneth that Crist had not payne inough. ls not here a mad doctryne of hym that wolde seme a crysten man. For as for that he telleth hys tale, as though men dyd reken theyr penauns for a thynge suffycyent to satysfye for theyr synne/ that is but a pece of hys poetrye. For he is not so folysshe but that he knoweth well inowgh that all christen men byleue that no penauns is of it selfe suffycyent for the leste synne, but the passyon and payne of Cryste maketh our penaunce auaylable, to them that set not so lytell by theyr synne, but that they be content and thynke them selfe well worthy to take payne and penaunce for theyr synne them selfe. But bycause he wyll that men repent the doyng of theyr synne, and then no more but fayth: I wolde wyt of Tyndale what calleth he repentynge, a lytell short sorow, or a great sorow and a longe? lf a lytell prety sorow and very shortely done: 1 wolde as fayne he sayed trew as 1 fere yt he lyeth. lf a great feruent sorow wyth grefe and trouble of mynde, not shortely shot ouer but kepte & contynued longe: then force I lytell of his heresye. For no dowte is it but that Tyndals tale to suche a man shall seme god wote full fond. For he that hath suche repentaunce, wyll to shryfte 1 warraunt you, and take penaunce of the preste, & do mych more there to what so euer Tindale tell hym. And he that is cristened & careth for no shryfte: repenteth neuer a dele/ but they that repente not at all be Tyndals repentaunt synners. Wyll ye se that it is so? Go me to Martyn Luther the fyrst mayster of Tyndale in thys mater, though now hys scoler passeth hym. Whyle that frere lyeth with his nonne, & woteth well he doth nought, and sayth styll he doth well: let Tyndale tell me what repentynge is that. He repenteth euery mornynge, and to bedde agayne euery nyghte thynketh on [fiv] goddys promyse fyrste and then go synne agayne vppon truste of goddys testament/ and then he calleth it castynge of a lytell mylk in to the mayne see. Of the sacrament of order. Tyndale. By a preste in the new testament, vndeistande nothynge ellys but an elder, to teache the yonger, to brynge them to the full knowlege and vnderstandyng of Cryste, and to mynystre the sacramentes whych Cryste ordeyned. More. By the wordes, he meaneth that ys holy order is no sacrament, nor is nothyng ellys but an elder to teache the yonger, and to mynystre the sacraments suche as Cryste ordeyned. And in this wyse he sayth we be all prestes both men and women to. For he sayth in the same boke precysely and in this boke to, that women may consecrate the holy body of Crist. Agaynste whych folysh blasphemouse bablynge were very great foly to dyspute, syth of as many good holy vertuouse women as hathe bene in crystendone syth crystes deth vnto this daye/ was there neuer none yet but that her harte wold haue abhorred, yf such an hygh presumptuous thought shold ones haue fallen in her mynde. And what wold yt auayle to dyspute wyth hym, syth he mokketh and skoffeth out the wordes of saynte Paule wrytten vnto Tymothe/ in whyche the sacrament of order ys so playnly proued, that all the worlde can not denye yt, but yf they make a mokke at saynt Paule as Tyndale doth. Now in that he sayth the sacramentes that Cryste ordeyned/ he meaneth nothynge ellys but his playne heresyes agaynst all the sacramentes saue twayne/ that is baptysme and the sacrament of the auter, as ye haue all redy sene in all the remanaunt. And now syth he leueth but them twayne/ 1 pray you consyder how holyly he hande- leth them twayne, and ye shall se that he myght allmost as welldeny them both as handle them after the fashyon. And fyrste here how he handeleth the holy sacrament of baptysme. Of the sacrament of baptysme, these be his wordes. Tyndale. The sacramentes which Criste hym self ordeyned, which haue also promises and wolde saue vs yfwe knew them and byleued them/ them they rnynyster in the latine tonge. So ar they also bycome as vnfrute- fall as the tother. And after he sayth forther: Baptisme is called vulowynge in ma[gi]ny places in Englande, by- cause the preste sayth volo saye ye. The chylde was well volued say they/ ye and our vicare is as fayre volwer as any preste wythin this twentye myles. More. All this great scoffynge ariseth onely, bycause that chyldern be crystened in latyne. For whyche onely cause he sayth that the baptysme is vtterly frutelesse / ye & by his tale worse then frutelesse to. For he sayth they be now in lyke cause as ar the tother sacra- mentes, whych he sayth haue no promyse in scrypture, and therfore are (he sayth) supersticyouse. And lo thus fyrst ye se that as longe as euer any chyldern haue in Englande ben crystened in laten/ there was neuer chylde the better for the cristendome. And then yf this lye be trew: there is yet neuer a crysten man nor neuer a crysten woman in all England, excepte happely som well latyned lewes conuertyd, or ellys suche Englysh chyldern as lerned theyr grammer in theyr mothers bely. Howe be yt 1 wolde euery other thynge were as ethe to mende as this is/ for this mater may be sone eased. lt may be now vppon this faute founden, be prouyded vppon Tyndales counsell that all the Englyshe chyldern shall be crystened in englyshe, and then they shall vnderstande all the mater well inough ye wote well, and speke for them selfe to. yndeth Tyndale twoo great fautes, for which he sayth that all the baptisyng of the chylde is fruteles. One he sayth bycause of the false byleue that the plungyng in the water saueth them/ a nother for ys the promyse is not taught them. But there I wolde fayne wyt of Tyndale, syth he sayth that the baptysme is frutelesse for such causes, and syth he muste nedes meane at the tyme of the cristenynge, for yf he shold meane no more but yt the chylde sholde lease ys frute at length for lake of suche instruccyon after, then were his wordes false though he sayde therin trewe / for then were not baptysme vnfrutefull, for yt were very frutefull at the leste wise to a great rnany that god calleth hens ere euer the lacke of such lernyng can be layed to theyr charge: thus I saye Tyndale must nedys meane therfore, that for these fautes the frute of the baptisme is lost euen at ys fonte, & no grace goten therby/ or ellys his tale were false. And ye wote well in no wyse wyll he lye for that were poetrye. Now syth he sayth then, that the baptysme is frutelesse at [giv] the founte for these causes: 1 wolde wit of hym whyther it be voyde because these thynges be not at the fount preached to ys godfathers, or because they be not preached there vnto the chyld yt self. If he say yt yt is frutelesse for lakke of prechyng there vnto ys chyld yt self: then 1 deny not but ys Tyndale sayth ryght well and reasonable, and I shall speke to the persone of our parysshe that he shall preche to the chyld at the fount, and tell hym many good talis in his ere. But surely yf he say that the baptysme is frutelesse at the founte for lakke of such thynges there taught vnto ye godfathers/ therin coulde I not agre wyth hym, for they come not to be crystened there them self/ and so the lakke of that prechyng there can not hyndre theyr cristendome. And as for the chyld, if neyther they nor the preste nother well vnderstande theyr dewtye nor well byleued in baptysme neyther/ ye & though they were turkes, Iewes, or saracens, or that worse were then all thre very starke heretyques: yet so that in the baptysynge they purpose to make the chyld crysten, & therin do as the chyrch doth/ all theyr lakke can not make the baptysme lese his frute. And yf that Tyndale knowe not this he is very porely lerned/ and yf he know this, and then saye as he sayth, that for lakke of such teachynge at the founte the baptysme there is frutelese, what is he then say you? But now is yt good to se somwhat of Tyndales mynde concernynge these twoo thynges, that is to wyt the fayth set on sensyble tokens in the sacrament, and the prechynge of the promyses. Fyrst for the visyble sygnes, there be twoo thynges to be consydred. Thone that Tyndale beryth vs in hand that the clergye maketh vs byleue that the visible sygnes alone doth all to gether, & therin he saythe false/ a nother that hym self byleueth that they do no good at all, and therin he byleueth false. For the fyrst poynt these be his wordes. Tyndale. They make vs beleue that the worke selfe wythoute the prornyse saueth vs, whych doctryne they lerned of Aristotle. More. In this poynte he playnely bylyeth the clergye, whyche doctryne he lerned of the deuyll. Who taketh baptysme but for a sacrament ordeyned of god for mannys saluacyon, by whych god hath promised that he shalbe saued except synne [gi] after let hym, and wythout whych he shall not be saued, excepte ryght specyall cases, & those be very few neyther able to be playnely proued by scrypture, and yet wyll Tyndale agre them agaynste his maysters rule. How be yt Tyndale hath here a nother rule and that as false as the tother, by whych as I was aboute to saye he rekeneth the outwarde tokens of the sacrament to be of none effecte, but onely bare tokens of that grace that is wrought wyth the worde, and that the worde of Cristes promyse. For he sayth ys the sacramentis be as yt were a precheour, and do onely preache goddes promyses / and therfore for to mynystre ys sacramentes, is (he sayth) nothynge ellys but to preache goddes promyses. And for this he alleggeth ys wordes of saynte Paule in the fyfte chapyter of his pystle to the Ephesies: Criste clensed ys congregacyon in the founteyne of water thorow the word. And also the wordes of saynt Peter where he sayth in the fyrste of his fyrste pystle: ye are borne of new, not of mortall seed but of immortall seed, by the word of god whych lyueth and lasteth euer. He alleggeth also the worde of saynte Iamys in the fyrste chapyter of his pystle, where he sayth: Of his good wyll bygate god vs wyth the worde of trouthe, that is sayth Tyndale wyth the worde of promyse. He sayth also: <2Thou seeste that it is not the worke but the promyse that>2 <2iustyfyeth vs thorowfayth>2. He sayth also that as ye preste purgeth by prechynge of the promyse, so do the sacramentes and none otherwyse / bycause he sayth that the sacramentes be but sygnes and tokens that betoken and preache the promises. And so he meaneth that as the preste prechyng the promyses, doth geue vs a knowlege of them, or putteth vs in mynde of them, and yet he doth but shew vs of the promyses & of grace, & doth not gyue vs any effecte of any promyse or grace, nor we by that preching do not gete no grace but by goddes worke bysyde: so though he minystre ys sacraments, yet we do not attayne & gete any grace neyther by ys preste, nor by the sacra- mentes, nor by that worke or dede yt is done in mynystrynge or receyuynge the sacramentes, no more than by the prestes prechynge/ but onely by the promyse of god thorow fayth to the infoundynge wherof the sacrament doth nothyng worke, nor is no cause therof nor cooperant thereto, nor meane nor instrument therin / but onely a bare sygnyfyer and a shewer thereof. And yet worse then thus: that lykewyse as yf a preste standyng vp in the pul[giv]pet to preche, do there stande styll and preche nothyng at all but so come downe agayne and say nothynge, doth vnto ys people no profyte at all: so the sacramentes syth they be but bare sygnes as he sayth, and serue of nothyng but to sygnyfye certeyne thynges, he sayth therfore that bycause the mynysters of the sacramentes do not open and declare those sygnyfycacyons to the receyuers of the sacramentes, therfore the sacramentes be frutelesse/ and men take no more profyte by the receyuynge of them, then by the stondynge of the preste in the pulpet that standeth there and precheth not. And it is to be consydered that thys is hys opynyon as well of the blessed sacrament of the auter as of the holy baptisme. Wherby whalt mynde he hath of that blessyd sacrament, he leueth lytell doute to them ys haue eyther lernyng or wvt. If thys opynyon of Tyndale were trew that the preest doth in mynystrynge the sacramentes no more but preche the promyses/ and in the mynystrynge he purgeth but as he doth by hys prechynge/ and when he precheth not the sygnyfycacyons then he purgeth not: then were there wyth the baptysme no grace at all geuen vnto chyldren for the preest precheth not then/ & though he dyd we fynde not yet that he sholde suffycyently purge the chylde wyth prechynge. And yet yf baptysynge be nothynge ellys but prechynge as Tyndale savth/ then after that the preest had well preched all ys were to be preched and shewed what the token and the sacrament meaneth/ he myght as it semeth by Tyndals tale send home the chyld agayne & neuer put water vppon hym. Tyndale wyll haue vs byleue no thynge but playne & euydent scrypture/ I wolde he sholde therfore proue hys tale here by playne and euydent scripture/ for as for these placys that he layeth proue it no thynge at all. For the wordes of saynt Paule to ys Ephesyes, Criste clensed the congregacyon in the fountayne of water thorow the word, is the thynge that all we say to/ that is to wyt that by the holy wordes of baptysme comynge to the water god clenseth the soule accordynge to the wordes of saynt Austyne <2accedit verbum ad elernentum &>2 <2fit sacramentum.>2 But Tyndale bycause saynt Paule sayth there / in the fountayne of water thorow the worde, weneth that he setteth the water but for a sygne/ as yf ys one wolde say, a man doth in hys body faste, watch, gyue almesse, and praye thorow the deuocyon of the soule, Tyndale wolde then saye that the body were sct but for a [gi] sygne and in all these thynges doth nothynge at all. Hys texte also of saynt Peter is nothynge in thys world for hys purpose. For when saint Peter sayth: ye are borne of new, not of mortall seed but of immortall seed, by the worde of god whyche lyueth and lasteth euer: what meaneth he other then that by our sauyour hym selfe whyche is the lyuynge worde of god that lyueth & lasteth euer, we be borne agayn by the sacramentall water & the sacramentall word, whyche bothe he there vnderstandeth, for he essely speketh of neyther nother, but of the worde that is goddes sonne. The wordes of saynt Iamys also, that god of hys good wyll begate vs wyth the worde of trouth, how proue these wordes that the water of baptysme serueth but for a sygne? <2The worde of trouth sayth Tyndale is here vriderstanden the worde of hys as>2 <2Promyse.>2 How proueth Tyndale that? bycause that Crystes promyses be trew, muste it therfore nedys be that saynt Iamys in that place ment the worde of promyse/ as though there were no more trew of all that euer Cryste spake but onely of hys promyses. Why may not in that place the word of trouth wyth whyche god hath of hys good wyll bygoten vs, be vnderstartden our sauyour Cryst hym selfe/ by whom god hath bygote vs in dede, and whych is the very trouth it selfe as hym selfe wytnesseth of hym selfe where he sayth: <2Ego sum via, veritas, & vita,>2 I am the waye, the trouth, and the lyfe. Thus maye ye se that thys texte proueth Tyndales purpose nothynge at all. But now suppose that the very wordes of saynt lamys were, that god had bygoten vs wyth the worde of hys promese/ what had thys made for the mater? How had thys proued that the water and the sacramentall wordes were but bare sygnes & tokens? lf saynt lamvs sayde that god had bygoten vs by hys goodnes/ do these wordes exclude all ys meartys that hys goodnes vsed towarde it? lf god wolee. saye to Tyndale: I haue brought thee in to thys world which thou doste now corrupte, and I haue made the crystendom whyche thou gooste aboute to dystroye, and I haue bydden the beware of hell to whyche thou rennest a pace: dyd he therin exclude Tyndalys father and hys mother, and hys sacrament of baptysme and the mynyster therof, and the prechers and techers of the tother? So ye maye playnly se that Tyndales textes serue no thynge at all to proue that the sa[giv]cramentcs serue but onely for sygnes. Thys opynyort hath Tyndale taken of Luther, whyche gyueth to the sacrament nothyrtge at all/ but he sayth that god gyueth all the grace by the fayth alone, and not by the sacramentes any thynge at all. Now the chyrche beleueth & techeth that god hath not so boundert hym selfe to his sacramerttes, but that where he gyueth the gyfte of fayth to any that can not come to baptysme, there he of hys power maye and of hys goodnes wyll gyue vnto that man the gyfte of such grace to come to heuyn without baptysme. But where god gyueth grace by the baptysme/ there it is harde to set ys baptysme at so short, as to saye that it serueth but for a bare sygne / and wythout the sygnyfycacyons prechcd at the font standeth in no more stede then a precher that precheth not. Albe it that god maye cure a sore without a medycyne, & do a myracle in a mannys helth, and that for the regarde of the mannys good fayth and hys truste in god: yet yf it please god to hele hym by a plaster though hys fayth be the cause why god dothe it/ yet is the plaster a meane in the doynge, and serueth not for a bare sygne. And surely when our sauyour set thys order therin, that who so were baptysed in water in the name of the father & the son and the holy ghooste he sholde be saued/ and that excepte a man were borne agayne as well of the water as of ys spyryte, he sholde not entre in to the kyngdome of heuyn: god set it to serue for a more effectuall thyng then for a bare sygne voyd of any frutefull effecte. For thys were yet at the lest wyse no lesse, then yf a lord wolde say to a poore felow: take the here thys badge or thys lyuery gowne of myne/ & yf thou take it and were it I wyll take the for myn houshold seruaunt and in myne houshold gyue the meat and drynke & wages/ or ellys yf thou were it not, thou shalte not come wythin my dorys. Thys lyuery gowne gyueth hym neyther meat nor money/ but yet it is more then a sygne that he shall haue it/ for the werynge therof helpeth hym to get it, not of any nature of the lyuery but by hys lordes ordenaunce. And so lyke wyse though it were trew that the sacramentes dyde nothynge worke in them selfe, nor had no power in them selfe no more of god then of nature to purge & clense the soule: yet were it more then a bare token or sygne of grace, in that it hath by goddys promyse hys owne specyall assystens, whyche at ys sacramentes mynystred doth infounde [gi] hys grace. How be it many good vertuouse men hath there ben of olde, that haue had yet a mych hygher estymacyon of the sacramentes then so/ and that haue thought that the sacramentes haue not onely god by hys promyse assystente to purge ye soule and to infunde hys grace, but also that he hath vsed them therin as effectuall workyng instru- mentes in the doynge therof, by reason of a certeyne influens of hys power, wherby he made them mete to worke in to the soule thorow the touch of the body. And in to thys mynde they were ledde by the wordes of holy scrypture, and partely for the excellence of the sacramentes ofthe new law in respecte of the sacramentes of the olde law/ bytwene whych two kyndes of sacramentes semeth to be as greate dyfference, as bytwene the two kyndes of the lawes them selfe/ and that is no lesse then bytwene fygures, ymagys, symylytudes or shadowes, and the very thynges them selfe/ as sayth saynt Paule: <2Omnia infigura con>2 <2bant illis>2 all thynge vnto them came in fygures. law had god by hys promyse assystent wyth them in remyssyon o synnes, as by the playne wordes of many places of scrypture doth appere: it semed to those olde holy vertuouse doctours, that the sacramentes of the new law for the preemynence ouer them, sholde of goddys especyall influens haue some effectuall vertue, force, and power, as an instrument of god in ys workynge therof.To whyche mynde they haue ben moued not onely for the cause afore remembred / but also as I sayd before for that the very wordes of holy scrypture semen to lede them it/ when they redde in the actes, that by the puttynge of the apostles handes vppon them that were crystened, the holy gooste forthwyth came in to them, and by myracle shewed hym selfe by theyr spekyng in dyuers tonges. And when they redde saynt Paule wrytyng to Tymothee: Neglecte not that grace that is in the, whych is gyuen the by prophecye, wyth the puttynge vppon of the handes of ye preesthed / and vnto hym also those wordes: I warne the that thou resuscytate and styrre vp the grace of god that is in the by the imposycyon or puttynge vppon of my handes: these placys were very playne for theyr mynde, when they here redde that grace was by god infused wyth the receyuyng of the holy order of preesthode, by the outwarde sa[giv] crament of puttynge the bysshoppys hande vppon hym. It semeth also ys the wordes of god spoken by the mouth of the prophete Ezechiel souneth to ys same / where he sayth. I haue wasshed the wyth water, & I haue clensed thy blood. By whych wordes yt semeth to be sygnyfyed that the outewarde wasshynge of the water of baptysme, sholde be an effectuall instrument of the inwarde wasshynge of the soule. And by the mouth of the same prophete, in prophecyeng of the sacrament of baptysme our lord sayth also: I shall shede out vppon you clene Water, and ye shall be clensed from all your fylthynes. These wordes shewe that the water shall wasshe the fylthe. And what fylthynes meaneth he but ye fylthynes of the soule? and that doth no water wasshe but the water of baptisme. And where to wolde our lord by ys mouth of his prophete call it clene water/ but for ys difference ys it hath in makynge clene the soule by influence of goddes gyfte ouer that other waters haue? for eflys as for elementall clennesse of that water in yt selfe, other water is as clene as yt. Those holy doctours consydered also the yet more open wordes of ys prophete zacharie: There shall go forth he sayth quykke lyuely waters oute of Hierusalem, the one halfe of them to the oryentall see, the other halfe to the very vttermost see. These wordes veryly descrybe the holy water of ys sacrament of baptysme, the water that welleth oute of holy chyrch whyche strecheth to two sees of synnes, that is to wit both of synne orygynall and of all the actuall synne that the man hath done, all were he neuer so olde ere he were baptysed. And why calleth the prophete this water quykke and lyuely/ but for the dyf- ference betwene it and other waters ys are but deede? in token that the water of baptysme hathe by the secrete sanctyfycacyon of god, a certayne strength of spirytual lyfe infounded in to that corporall element/ wherby it is not onely a bare dede token, and sygne of grace, and clensynge of the soule, but also a quycke lyuely workynge medycyne, meane, and instrument. By these places of scrypture and dyuerse other/ many good holy men of old, all be yt yt no man otherwyse thought nor thynketh, but that the pryncypall worke and the hole worker in the clensyng of the soule and infundyng of grace is god hym selfe, and that he doth yt for the merytes- of Crystes passyon as he hath promysed to do, and that vppon our parte is requyred in suche as haue vse & reason at the tyme [hi] of baptysme repentaunce of the euyll lyfe passed, with fayth and bylyef of the worde of god, and hope of saluacion wyth loue and charyte towarde god and our neyghbour, and a purpose of workynge of good workes: yet dyuerse good holy doctours haue tought as I say by such placys of scrypture, that god in the workynge of such clensynge of ys soule, and infusyon of grace, vseth the sacra- mentes not as a bare sygne but as an instrument, wyth whyche and by whyche it pleaseth hym to worke them. And they that thynke otherwyse/ that is to wyt they that thynke that the sacramentes be but as yt were the lyuery gowne wherof I gaue you the ensample, and hath no specyall power nor influence gyuen of god, by whych it any thyng may worke in clensyng of the soule: all they haue none other thynge for them selfe as far as I haue redde and could perceyue, but argumentes grounded vppon philo- sophye and metaphisycall reasons/ by the constraynte wherof I wyll not say they be dreuen and compelled, but say that as yt semeth me, they dryue and compell them selfe to fynde gloses to these scriptures, & vnto ys wordes of other good holy doctours to. For as for my parte, I wold not let to deny an hole hepe of those reasons in maters of the sacramentes, whych hang all vppon goddes will and pleasure and his omnipotent power. For all be yt yt we se no lykelyhed how that bodely water can worke vpon the spyrytuall substaunce of ys soule/ yet god can make ys fyre which is a bodely substaunce as well as is the water, to worke not vppon soulys onely discharged of theyr bodyes in purgatory, but also vppon ys euyll angelles the deuyls whose substaunce is as spirituall as is the soule: I can not greatly se why we shold greatly fere to graunte & agre, that by goddes ordyn- aunce the water may be goddes instrument in purgynge and clens- ynge of the soule. Whyche argument for ought that I perceyue among them is to myne vnderstandyng so symply soyled/ that till I here eyther better or perceyue them better: I lyke as yet that argument better then I lyke all theyre solucyons that they make thereto. For some of them be fayne for theyr solucyon, to graunt almoste that theyr payne in the fyre were but a detaynynge therin by some strenger power then them selfe/ and then were the payne but as a prysonement and restraynt of lybertye, if the fyre burne them not. And then why more in fyre then in [hiv] water, yf they be for the fyre neuer the warmer. And on the tother syde yf that by the kepynge of them in ys fyre the fyre do worke vppon them and burne them, as I thynke ys trouth is: then so maye by goddes ordynaunce the water helpe to wasshe and clense the soule. And surely syth experyence teacheth vs that the soule whych is of yt selfe a spyrytuall substaunce, god hath of his hygh wysedome and power founden the meane so to put it in a bodye and so to knyt yt therto, that not onely by fyre or frosen water putte aboute yt, but also wythoute any outwarde thynge put vnto yt, by the onely boylynge of the distempered humours wythin yt selfe, ye soule is in such gryef, payne and torment, that it wold be as fayne out of the body as the bodye wold be rydde of it: syth we fynde this thus, I dowte nothynge at all but that god can by mo meanes then men can thynke or imagyne, so bynde the spyrytuall soule to the fyre, that he shall fele the feruour of ys fyre as he nowe feleth the hete of his ague here/ and yet shall not the fyre and he be made one person as the soule and the body be now. Which thynge who so wolde aske me howe maye that be/ myght as well aske me how myght the worlde be made when there was nothyng to make yt of, and a thousand madde questyons mo. 2, But to the purpose this I say, that god may by his power make the water in the sacrament an instrument with an efectuall influence of power geuen by god thereto at the tyme to purge the soule/ as well as ye fyre eyther to purge yt or punyshe yt. In whych thynge syth the scryptures seme to say that he dothe so, & no scrypture sayth the contrarye/ and many good holy men haue bene of that mynde/ I see not why we shold thynke otherwyse. When our lord heled Naaman Syrus by is prophete Helyzeus in the water of Iordane/ no man dowteth but that god dyd the dede. Yet were yt a great boldenes to afferme that the water there dyd worke nothynge therin at that tyme, and yet had the water no such nature of yt selfe. No more had also the water of whych yt is wryten in the gospell of saynt Iohan, where at the mouynge therof who so nexte were let downe thereto was there cured by the angell of god/ and yet is yt well lykely that god gaue an influence of his power at the tyme, by which the water self was made an instrument of that helth. And lykewyse where the woman was heled by the touch [hi] of Crystes garment, wherof saynt Luke speketh in the.viii. chapyter: the wordes of our sauyour hym selfe seme to shew some influence gone forth from hym selfe in to his garment, suche as by his myght with the touche of his garment vsed as an instrument therin, was able to gyue helth vnto that good faythfull woman. When our sauyour as is wryten in ys .ix. chapyter of saynt Iohan dyd take the dyrt of the grounde, and dyd spytte there vppon and made therof a plaster, & layed it vppon the blynde mannys yien and so gaue hym his syghte: I thynke that god gaue an influence of hys power in to that plaster, wherby he cured his yien. Yet mighte he haue done it by his onely worde or by hys onely wyll, wythout any suche outwarde thynge layed there vnto. But it pleased hym to let them se that he not onely coude do it hym selfe, but coude also make the very dyrte of the strete able to do suche curys/ as not all the plasters in all the surgeons shoppes were able to attayne vnto. Now yf they wyll saye that it is not lyke in curynge the body and clensynge of the soule: I saye it is lyke, sauynge for the reason by whyche they say that the bodyly water can not worke vppon the vnbodyly soule. And therfore thereto I saye, that by no naturall power nor by no power excepte onely goddys/ coude these bodyes that is to wyt those waters, garment, and plaster, haue in suche wyse wrought vppon the bodyes wherein they were workynge instrumentes of these meruelouse cures. And then I saye by hys power maye the bodyly water as well be a workynge instrument vppon the vnbodyed and vnbodyly soule, be it in clensyng, pourgyng, or punysshynge/ as vppon the body. For as for that reason by whyche some doctours reken the mater the more easy in the sacramentes, bycause the outwarde sensyble thynges therof worke as they reken vppon the soule, as parte of the hole man by touchynge the body therof/ as the fyre touchynge the body payneth the soule & all, all be it I repungne not thereat: yet I nothyng grounde my selfe theron, syth I neuer founde amonge them all one reason yet, wherby me thoughte it proued otherwyse, but ys god may make the bodyly corporall water, able to worke vppon the vnbodyed incor- poryall soule. Whyche yf it maye/ syth god hath set the sacramentes as meanys by whiche we come to clensyng of the soule and to saluacyon/ all be it that [hiv] no man denyeth but that the power of god is chyefe, & that he regardeth chrystes passyon and our owne fayth wyth dyuerse other thynges:. yet I se not why we sholde take all effecte of workyng from the sacra- mentes them selfe, and leue them voide of all grace, and call them bare gracelesse tokens. For yf that any man were of ys mynde that he thoughte the sacramentes do nothynge to the clensynge of the soule, bycause that all that euer is done is done by the power of god: so myghte he thynke that no medecyne doth any thynge in the cure of any dysease, bycause that all the nature of the medycyne is gyuen vnto it by the power of god to. How be it in thys mater whyther that the sacramentes haue any influence of power gyuen them by god, whereby they may be workers and instrumentes in the purgynge or clensynge of the soule/ or ellys that they be but in such wyse meanys and cause of the grace, as the lyuery gowne wherof I dyd put the ensample is of the seruauntes fyndynge in ys lordes housholde/ is not the thynge wherin I wyll gretely stykke. But in my mynde the scrypture most serueth for ys fyrst opynyon/ and good holy doctours and of ye eldest haue ben of that opynyon, and nothyng but phylosophicall reasons haue drawen other from that opynyon. And synnys that some other hath fallen to the tother opynyon, whyche gyueth to the sacramentes lesse force and effycace then doth that fyrste opynyon: there are now come these new men, Luther, frere Huskyn, and Hychen, and such other lewde felowes, that wolde leue the sacramentes by theyr wyllys no maner strength at all. And therfore so myche lyke I the better the fyrste waye that most holy men helde, and that fertheste goeth from the doctryne of those heretykes, whyche make the sacramentes as they rechers/ & then they preche them sey to saerue onelys hed is ntess crament at all, and turne them all in to mokkes and iestes, comparyng sand with holy salte, and butter smeryng to the anoyntynge wyth the halowed chrysme / & such other folysshe blasphemy. Now where they saye that all the saluacyon standeth in promyse of god, and nothynge in the sacramentes at all/ bycause that they be but the tokens therof: by this reason they wyll wythin a whyle take a way the reuerence from the very promyse to. For of trouth the promyse of god worketh not our saluacyon no more then do the sacramentes, but god [hi] worketh our saluacyon hym selfe/ and the promyse is the token wherby we knowe he doth so. For yf he had not promysed it/ we had not so surely knowen it, nor had not had so greate a cause of good hope thereof/ but yet myghte he haue saued vs though he had neuer promysed vs. And now them that he saueth, he saueth not so myche by the force of hys promyse as by reason of the selfe same goodnes ys made hym to make the promyse. So ys his owne lyberall goodnes worketh our saluacyon, and the promyse gyueth the knowlege of our saluacyon. Now saye these men allwaye that god saueth vs by hys promyse, as thoughe they were sure that yf he were not surely bounden by his promyse, he wold not now do it at all/ and sauynge that his promyse is onys passed hym somewhat, as they make it vnware: he wold elles yf it were now to make, take a better auysement ere he bounde hym selfe so farre. In menne such chaunge and such repentaunce happeth, that where one of his good wyll sometyme byndeth hym selfe to geue/ the tother maye thanke the bonde yf euer the promyse be kept. But goddes hygh prouydence so foreseeth what he promysed/ that he can neuer forthynk yt. And his inestimable goodnes is so great/ that he geueth not bycause he promyseth, but he promyseth bycause he wyll geue/ and wolde geue though he neuer promysed as he determyned to geue byfore he promysed/ and wold yet pro- myse yf he had not promysed/ not that his promyse sholde be ys cause of hys gyfte, but that we shold by his promyse haue knowlege of his gyfte and comfort of the hope. Now maketh me Tyndale the sacramentes nothynge but a token of the promyse/ and the promyse he maketh the cause of the gyfte:. where of trouth as well the promyse as the sacramentes be tokens of the gyfte/ and goddes goodnesse is the cause of the gyfte. And god hath from the begynnyng determyned that he wolde after the fall of Adam ordinaryly not geue yt wythoute the sacramentes. But though he determyned also to make a promyse/ yet neuer determyned he that he wolde not geue yt wythoute he made a promyse. And so be both the sacramentes and the promyses tokens of the gyfte/ and yet semeth the sacrament rather then thr promyse a cause of For the sacrament after the instytucyon, semeth a cause of the sf at the leste wyse in some kynde of cause, and the promyse semeth no cause in no [hiv] kynde neyther synnys nor afore. And thus ye maye se what a wyse processe Tyndale maketh vs. But wolde god yet that thys were the worst pece of Tyndales techyng concernyng Crvstes promyse. But he frameth crystes promyses after hys owne fasshyon. He sayth that we make promyses in sacramentes where cryste made none/ but he maketh promyses that Cryste made neuer suche. For Chryste promyseth heuyn yf men labour for it: Tyndale wolde make vs wene we nede no labour at all. Chryste promyseth forgeuenes thorow the sacrament of penauns yf men amende and wyll do penauns: Tyndale of the sacrament putteth two partes awaye, and almost the thyrde to, & promyseth forgyuenes for a very shorte skant repentynge at ys fyrst thought by and by/ and to do penauns he taketh for idolatrye. Cryst promiseth vs heuyn yf we do good workes wyth our fayth: Tyndale sayth to do good workes wyth intent ys rather to come to heuyn shall brynge a man to hell, and lese the reward of fayth. And thus Tyndale whych cryeth out promyse promyse, and wyll haue nothynge taught but Crystes promyse: yet in these thynges and an hundred moo stryueth and fyghteth agaynst goddys promyses, and vtterly goth aboute to destroye them. Fynally where as Cryste hath made a promyse, one of the grettest, most solempne, most assuredly made, & therto most frute- full & most necessary that euer he made/ that is to wyt that he wold be wytll hys chyrch of crysten people ill dayes vnto the ende of the wor1de and that he wolde sende also ys holy ghoost vnto them that sholde teche them all thynge & lede them in to euery treuth: Tyndale fyrst (leste he sholde seme to gaynsay thys promyse) wolde shyfte it from ys knowen chyrche and company of all crysten people professynge the name and fayth of Cryste, vnto a secrete com- pany of suche as they call good men and e1ecte/ whyche who the be who can tell? And yet syth there can be no dowte but suche as be or haue ben very electes, haue alwaye ben partys of thys knowen crysten company / and syth they were not false dyssymtlers: they haue byleued as they shewed, and they haue shewed that they byleued as we byleue in suche thynges as Tyndale now calleth myssebylefe, for they haue done therin as we do, and alwaye the best haue wryten these thynges that we byleue/ and neuer was there any company tyll within this twenty yere that byleued as Tindale sayth that he [hi] byleueth. And he sayth also that hys bylefe is so necessarye to sal- uacyon, that the contrary bylefe is damnable/ for ellis he wold not of his courtesye crye out so sore vppon the clergye for techynge the con- trary. Where vppon yf Tyndales lye be trewe/ there must then of necessyte folowe that there must be trew also one of these two very playne falsedes/ that is to wyt that Cryste hath neuer synnys hys deth tyll holy Tyndales dayes had in thys worlde here any chyrche at all/ or ellys that yf Cryste haue had here any chyrche, yet from hys oWne deth tyll holy Tyndalys dayes, the holy ghost whom hym selfe sent, neuer taught hys chyrche the treuth. Now then yf Cryst had all this whyle no chyrche in erthe / his promyse was clerely broken, by whych he promysed to be with hys chyrche hym selfe all dayes vnto the worldes ende. For how were he wyth hys chyrche here vnto the worldes ende/ yf before the worldes ende so many hundred yeres to gether, he had here no chyrche at all. And on the tother syde yf he had here all thys whyle any chyrche/ and then the holy ghost haue not taught yt chyrche the trewth: then hath Criste broken that promyse, by which he promysed that the holy ghoste sholde teche hys chyrch all thynges and leade them in to all trewth. For how had the holy ghoste taught it all thynges yf he haue suffered the deuyll to teche it some thynges. And let Tyndale when he wyll answere thys poynt. Marke well and remembre that we speke here of bylefe and fayth/ not of workes and dedes, lest after hys custumable fasshyon lettynge the bylefe go by: he answer vs wyth raylynge uppon mennys maners, and so lede the reader more then a myle fro the mater. And how hath the holy ghoste ledde the chyrche all thys whyle in to all trewth/ yf one holy truth be, that freres when they lyst may wedde nonnes notwithstandyng theyr vowes, and the holy ghost hath almost this fyftene hundred yere to gyther, suffered all hys hole chyrche (neyther good nor bad excepte) to byleue that breche of such vowes is dedly synne, and suche maner maryage pleyne incestuose lechery, and to dampne Tyndales fayth in that poynt for very false heresye. And thus good crysten reders here ye playnly se what maner of fasshyon Tyndale techeth Crystes promyses. For where as he setteth all at nothynge sauynge onely Crystes promyses made to man: he techeth men agayne to breke theyr promyse made to god/ and so bryngeth all hys maters [hiv] in conclusyon to that poynt, that yf he lyed not as he doth/ Cryste had broken hys promyse made to hys chyrch/ besyde thys that of Crystes promyses he denyeth many, and them that he graunteth he byleueth shrewedly, and wolde make them serue vs onely for a blynde boldenes of synne. Of the Sacrament of the auter. For as mych as he seeth yt the masse is the speciall thyng in whych the sacrament of the auter is honored, & in which yt is moste frute- full, in so mych as there the very body and bloode of our lorde is not onely receyued by the preste hym selfe and for hym selfe, but is also for his owne synnys and other mennys to, offred vppe to god as an holy hoost, oblacyon, and sacryfycye/ representyng the same sacryfyce in whych our sauyour both beyng the preste and the sacryfyce, offred vp hym selfe for the synne of the world vnto his father in heuen, an acceptable sacryfyce vppon his paynfull crosse: therfore doth Tyndall after his maysters doctryne ieste and rayle and make mokkes at the masse, wherof these be his wordes. Tyndale. What helpeth yt that the preste when he goeth to masse disgyseth hym selfe wyth a great parte of the passyon of Cryste, and playeth oute the reste vnder sylence wyth sygnes and profers, wyth noddynge, beckynge, and mowynge, as yt were iacke a napes/ when nether he hym selfe nether any man else woteth what he meaneth,nor whereof no man can gyue a good reason as he saythe sone after. More. Here he mokketh and playeth hym selfe as ye se in mokkynge these holy ceremonyes vsed, as well in thapparell of the preste as in the secretes of that holy sacryfyce. Whyche he sayth do no good but mych hurt, and make men superstycyouse / bycause as he sayth there, they haue the more deuocyon therby/ & therfore he wold haue them lefte, as though the deuocyon that is increased by the be- holdynge of those holy ceremonyes were superstycyon, bycause they vnderstande them not. If Tyndale say trew in this/ then dyd god by hys owne commaunde- ment make his chosen people of Israel to fall in to superstycyon in stede of deuocyon, wyth the ceremonyes vsed aboute the sacrafyces in the olde lawe, bycause they vnderstode them not. After this he mengleth hys lyes therwyth, saynge that [ii] crysten menne thynke that they haue done habundauntly ynough for god, ye and deserued aboue measure, yf they be present onsin a day at such a mummynge. More. What may not such a man be bolde to saye that is not ashamed to lye so shamefully? for he knoweth ys all ys readers well know that he lyeth when they rede yt/ and yet he is not ashamed to wryt yt. What man wolde be so folysh to thynke that he hath done ynough for god? Yet layeth he a nother incommodyte that the infydelys wyll mokke amonge vs, whereof no man can geue a reason. vs and abhorre vs, in that they se nothyng but suche apes playe amonge vs, whereof no man can geue a reason. Lo what an hygh reason hath Tyndale here founde out, ys such holy ceremonyes wherof Crystes chyrch hath receyued many, by the blessed apostles them selfe, & from theyr dayes vsed euer hytherto, as apperyth by the wrytyng of holy doctours far aboue a thousand yere a go/ we muste now geue ouer, for fere lest infldeles as Turkes and Saracens wold lerne of Tyndale to mokke vs for them/ because we can not tell them a good reason for eche of them. Be ye sure this ys a ryght solemne reason/ and Luther in dede maketh a mych lyke, so that ye may se that they haue wayed it well bytwene them, or ellys Tyndale wolde not after so longe a laysour alledge yt agayne so solemnely. But now wold I wyt of wyse Tyndale whyther yf men could and dyd gyue a good reason vnto Iewes, Turkes, & Saracens and Paynyms/ as for ensample such causes as Tyndale telleth some for great hydde mysteryes that no man could tell but he, whych he fet out late of a good frerys boke called <2Rationale diuinorum/>2 shewyng what sygnyfyeth the albe, the amys, and stole, and so forth: wold then all the Iewes, Turkes, Saracens, and other infydelys hold them selfe satisfyed & mokke no more? yf they so wolde/ then were they all mych lesse infydeles then Tyndale is/ for he hath sought out such thynges, and yet mokketh styll. How be yt that is lytle meruayle. For in dede he bryngeth all such thynges forthe but for to make mokkes at them. But then wold I wyt of wyse Tyndale farther, whyther yf all these infydeles that he speketh of, as Iewes, Turkes, and Saracens were present at the masse/ and no such ceremonye at all vsed thereat, but onely knelynge, knokkynge on brestes, and holdyng vp of handes at the syght of the leuacyon, [iiv] and receyuynge of that blessed sacra- ment/ and that thereuppon merueylynge on the manner therof, they were tolde the very trouth that the cause of all this reuerent be- hauour, is bycause that there vnder that forme of brede and wyne is the very blessed body and blood of oure sauyour hym selfe, the same yt hynge vppon the crosse when he suffred his passyon for our redempcyon: wold those infydeles then holde them selfe all content, and neuer mokke at yt more? Naye will none of them besyde the blessed sacrament mokke at all the hole mater, both at the incarnacyon, deth, resurreccyon and all? Lo thus ye se good crysten readers, that by Tyndales reason we must caste of clene all our hole fayth/ leste such infydelys as hym selfe is, shold make mokkes there at as he doth. What crysten eares can abydesuch blasphemouse foly? Yet wolde some vnwyse man wene peraduenture, that Tyndale dothe for all this not meane any thynge agaynste these holy cere- monyes of the masse / but onely mokketh the preest bycause he speketh not all the secretes of the masse a lowde/ and also bycause he teacheth not all ys paryshe what all those cerymonyes meane. Surely there nedeth no man to dowte, but he that can fynd in his herte to make such mokkes vppon the deuoute obseruaunces vsed so many hundred yeres about the masse/ hath a lewde bestely mynde agaynste the very sacrament yt selfe. But yet to thende that euery man may se yt the more clerely: ye shall perceyue by his owne wordes that accordyng to Luthers bab- lynge in his boke of Babilonica/ Tyndale teacheth playnely that the blessed sacrament is in the masse no sacryfyce, none hoste, nor none oblacyon/ by whych abomynable heresye he taketh quyte a way the very speciall profet and frute of all the masse. These be his very wordes: Tyndale. There is a worde called in latyne sacerdos,in greke hiereus, in hebrue cohan/ that is a mynyster, an offycer, a sacryfycer, or a preste/ as Aaron was a preest and sacryfyced for the peple, and was a mediatour betwene god and them/ and in the englyshe shuld yt haue had sorne other name then preest. But Antecriste hath deceyued vs wyth vnknowen and straunge termes, to brynge vs in to confusyon and superstycyous blyndnes. Of that maner is Criste a preest for euer, and all we prestes thorow hym/ and nede no more of any such preest on erth to be a meane for vs vnto god. More. [ii] By these wordes ye se, that where as the prestes in ys old law offred sacryfyces for the people and that of dyuerse kyndes, as appereth in Leuitici and Numeri and other places of holy scrypture / in stede of all whyche sacryfyces Cryste hath in his new law instytuted one onely sacryfyce, his own blessed bodye and blood to be offered vp to his father for his people by the handes of the preest in forme of brede & wyne/ of whych holy offerynge in the masse nowe, the offerynge of Melchi- sedech that offred bred and wyne, was a solemne figure: Tyndale telleth vs here that bycause Crist is a preste for euer, and that all we be prestes thorow hym man & woman/ ye muste vnderstande we nede therfore he saythe no more of any such preste on erth, that sholde be a meane betwene god and the people, to offer vp any sacryfyce to god for the people. For he sayth farther, that Cryste hath brought vs in to the inner temple wythin the veyle and vnto the mercy stole of god, and hathe coupled vs vnto god/ where we offer euery man for hym selfe the desyres a,d petycyons of his herte/ and do sacryfyce and kyll the lustes and appetytes of his fleshe, wyth prayour, fastynge, and all maner of godly lyuynge. More. Wyth these gay glytterynge wordes wolde Tyndale so blere our eyen/ that he wold make vs to reken our selfe taken in so nere to god and so coupled wyth hym, that euen vppon god almyghtyes mercy stole we offer euery man so suffycyently for hym selfe ys desyres and petycyons of his hart, and so suffycyently sacryfyce and kyll the lustes and appetytes of his fleshe, wyth prayour, fastynge, and all manner of good lyuynge: that we nede now no preste as meane betwene god and vs, to offer vp for vs to god the holy hoste and sacryfyce of all sacryfyces, the blessed bodye and blood of our holy sauyour Cryste. This is the goodnesse that he bryngeth all his holy processe to. And where as in other places all is nought among vs, and all is but synne: yet here leste we sholde nede the sacryfyce of the masse, we be all goddes good sonnes, & kyll and sacrifyce full well the lustes and appetytes of our flesh, wyth prayour, fastynge, and all manner of godly lyuynge. How be it when Tyndale sayth that we offer our desires of our harte at god almyghtyes mercy stole/ & that we kyll and sacryfyce the lustes of our fleshe with prayour, fastyng, and all godly lyuynge:. he meaneth none of vs peuysshe, popysshe popystes, but the lyuely lyghtsome Lutheranys. [iiv] For they perde as ye se by Luther hym selfe and hys holy nonne/ kylle & sacryfyce theyr flesshely lustes, with prayour, fastynge, and mych godly lyuynge, euery man and woman woteth how. I meruayle yetin what place of scrypture Tyndale fyndeth/ that men sacryfyce theyr synnes. We fynde that men offer sacryfyce for synne and that men kyll synne/ and then peraduenture offer them selfe clene depured from synne. But to offer vppe synne in sacryfyce/ me semeth it is a very stynkyng sacryfyce, and of suche a scryptured man not very scrypturely spoken. But therfore Tyndale turneth those. ii. wordes out of theyr ryght frame, to iugle and blere our yien wythall. For he sayth not that we kyll and sacryfyce oure flesshely lustes/ leste we sholde haue spyed that it were no metely sacryfyce. But he sayth that we sacryfyce and kyll them/ as though that in the olde lawe men had ben wont to sacrifyce the bestes fyrst, and burne them vppe hole/ or ellys burne parte and eate parte and then kyll them afer. But Tyndale careth not how he set hys wordes, so that he maye make vs to byleue, that we nede no preest to offer vppe dayly ys same sacryfyce that our sauyour offred onys, and hath ordayned to be by the prestes perpetually offred in hys chyrche. For thys is hys labour to take out of our bylefe/ and thys is Luthers labour, of whom he lerned it in hys booke of Babilonica. And for this cause be they wroth wyth the holy canon of the masse, bycause the sacrament is in the masse called as it is in dede, a sacryfyce, an hooste, & an offrynge. Thys wolde they haue vs leue of for the onely spyghte that they bere to preesthed/ bycause they se yt in thys poynt that holy order of preesthed hath an excellent pryuylege, in whyche none angell hath the lyke authoryte. And all be it that Tyndale telleth vs many tymes as the man is somwhat shamelesse, that we wyll not byleue saynt Hierom, saynt Austyne, saynt Ambrose, saynt Gregory, and the other olde holy doctours of Crystes chyrche: yet knoweth Tyndale that in thys one poynt amonge many other, they be quyte agaynste hym euerychone. And bycause it wolde here make a longe worke to reherse many of theyr wordes: therfore that Tyndale shall not denye but that I therin saye trewth, I shall alledge hym Luther hys owne mayster/ whyche in hys booke of Babilonica playnly con[ii]fesseth the same, and answer- eth it wyth saynge that the gospell of god is playne agaynste them all/ as thoughe that amonge them all, eyther neuer none had redde the gospell of god/ or ellys neuer none had vnderstanden it but hym self And then agaynst them all he construeth that gospell so folysshely/ that afore god a man wolde wene almoste thata goslynge had as mych wyt as he. And yet now wolde hys wyse dyscyple Tindale haue vs for his pleasure, in hatered of the order of preesthed/ byleue that the preest doth at the masse make none offryng of ys holy sacryfyce for our synne. Wyth whyche heresye he clene taketh awaye the very frute of the masse, in whiche that blessed sacrament is both moost honored of ys people, and is also most profytable to ys people. But yet shall ye se ferther that as fayre as he couereth hym selfe in hys spekynge of thys holy sacrament in some other places: yet in some he sheweth his affeccyon full well: for these are hys wordes. Tyndale. The sacrament of Crystes body after this wyse preche they: Thou muste byleue that it is no more brede but the very body of Cryste, flesshe, blood, and bone, euen as he went here on erthe, saue his cote. For that;s he,e yet I woie not in how many places. More. Is not here a fayre mokkynge maner in rehersynge of that holy sacrament? But yet to couer his infydelyte/ he maketh here a colour, as though he were angry that they teche no more. But he is angry in dede that they teche so mych/ or ellis coude he neuer fynd in his herte to speke so mokkeshly of such a mater as he doth. For euery man well knoweth that where he maketh after as though they whiche teche the people thys / dyd not teche them also ys profyte of the receyuyng nor the promyse of god: he doth vntrewly belye them. For who is there so symply taught, but that he well vnderstandeth ys the receyuyng of ys holy body of our lord in suche wyse as men are taught to receyue it/ is holsome to the soule and that goddys ordynaunce? And therfore is in Tyndale but a shame- lesse lye, wherof euery man well knoweth the contrarye. Wolde god hym self beleued as well of this holy sacrament, as the sympleste lerned preest in a contrey teacheth his paryshe. Whych yf he dyd/ his herte I dare saye wolde not serue hym so folyshely to ieste therat. For he speketh there of prechynge of [iiv] promise, for no other cause but onely to bryng in his worshypfull ieste of our lordis holy body beyng in ye sacrament, to say he is there all saue his cote. Of whych holy sacrament he yt iesteth so/ beleueth of lyklyhed yt there is no more of his body there then of his cote. I haue in his boke ofobedyenc consydered his wordes of this holy sacrament/ & I haue aduyse them ys better for certayne wordes ys I haue herd of hym: & I se not one worde by whych he may be bounden to saye that euer he con. fessed yt to be the very body and blood of Cryste. How be yt yf he had/ yt were not yet wyth that sorte mych ys surer. For they maye do as theyr mayster hath, saye the con- trarye after / and when they say worse, then tell vs that they haue sene more synnys and lerned better. How be yt he is in dede comen to that poynt all redy, as ye shall perceyue by his wordes in his boke made agaynste me/ wherof I shall reherse you parte anon. And yet we nede not mych more profe, when we se that he mokketh at ys masse, and wolde haue no preest at all, nor the sacrament to be taken as a sacryfyce/ and now iesteth vppon the doctrine that teacheth vs to byleue that in the sacrament is the blessed bodye and blood of our lorde, to turne yt to a mokke, ye sayth this fole all saue his cote/ a worshyppefull ieste in a crysten mannes mouth/ ys mouth is more mete in dede for sand then holy salt. What auayleth sayth he to teache folke this, that the very bodye and bloode of our lorde is in that sacrament/ the deuyll knoweth that Criste dyed on a frydaye and the Iewes to/ and what are they the better. We haue a promyse. &c Why steppeth he from thexample of the same sacrament. Wliy saythe he not the deuyll knoweth this to be trewe, that vnder the forme of brede is Cristes owne bodye, and yet the deuyll is neuer ys better. Surely bycause hym selfe beleueth that the deuyll knoweth yt not at all nor god neyther. And for bycause he wold not yet haue vs therin perceyue his minde to the vttermoste: he ioyned the Iewes wyth the deuyll to fle fro the sacrament to the fryday, where he myght haue seuered them and spoken of both/ or ellys wyth the Iewes & the deuyll, he myght haue ioyned hym selfe, and haue bounden all thre in a bundell. For he byleueth lesse then the tone/ and is as malycy- ouse as any of them both. Yet to thentent that ye may perceyue clerely, ys he is playne of Luthers heresye/ that the sacrament of the auter is very brede styll: ye shall vnderstande that where as I in my dya[ii]loge reherse Luthers heresyes, and amonge other thys heresye ys I now speke of, Tyndale in hys answere affyrmeth Luthers heresye for good and trew, sayeng: <2That that is broken, and that the Preste eateth wyth his tetf>2 / <2isyt>2 <2not brede what isyt elles?>2 And after those wordes he goth forth in iestynge & mokkynge god wote full lyke hym selfe. And sone after in a nother place he sayth in defehse of Luthers heresye, bycause he wold haue folke set lesse therby & haue lesse reuerence therunto: <2It were a Perilouse caseyf men and women touchedyt,>2 <2bycause>2 the Pope <2hath not>2 oyled <2them.>2 And afterwarde he sayth: <2At Oxforde aboute the sacrament was no>2 <2smale question of late dayes, whytheryt were brede or none/ some affermyng >2 <2that the flowre wyth longe lyenge in water was turned in to starch.>2 More. What a cankerd mynde this heretyque hath/ there can I trow no man dowte that hereth what folysh gaudes he deuyseth vppon it of his own frantyque hed. For yf euer there were any such folysh fantasye spoken there/ yt was by hym selfe & one or twoo wretched felows of his owne secte, syttynge and blasphemynge god vppon theyr ale benche. But now shall ye yet more playnely se, to what poynt he goth aboute to brynge you. Tyndale. It is the sacrament of Crystes bodye and blood, and Cryste calleth yt the new and euerlastynge iestament in his blood, and commaundeth that we shuld so do in the remembraunce of hym/ that his bodye was broken and his blood shede for our synnes. And Paule commaundeth therby to shew or preache the lordes deth. They say not pray to yt, neyther put any fayth therin. For I maye not beleue in the sacrament, but I mbste beleue the sacrament, that yt is a true sygne, and yt true that is sygnyfyed thereby (whych is the onely worshyppynge of the sacrament, yf ye geue yt other worshyppe ye playnely dyshonour yt) as I maye not beleue in Crystes chyrche, but beleue Cristes chyrch, that the doctryne whych they preache of Cryste is true. If ye haue any other docirine/ teache vs a reason and leade vs in lyght, and we More. No man can desyre better knowledge of hym then he sheweth of hym selfe in these wordes. For here he sheweth playnly that though to blere our yies wythall he calleth it the sacrament of Crystes body and blood, and his new and euerlastynge testament in hys bloode/ and sayth that we be commaunded by saynt Poule therby to preche the lordes dethe: yet he wyll not in any wyse yt men shall praye therto [iiv] nor put any fayth therin. And it is no dowte but he yt hath that mynde, byleueth nothyng at all that it is the very body of Cryste, wherwyth hys holy soule is coupled, and hys almyghty godhed ioyned/ from whyche fro ys fyrst assumpcyon therof it was neuer seueryd. And therfore vnto all hys other gaye gloryouse wordes he hath a false glose / by whyche he meaneth that the blessed sacrament is nothynge els but a token & a fygure ordayned for a remembrauns of Cryste, and not the very body and bloode of hym selfe. It is also to be noted whereuppon he groundeth this holy precepte of hys, that men sholde not praye to the sacrament nor put any fayth therin. He sayth bycause that ys scrypture doth not commaunde it/ therfore it is dyshonoure to the sacrament to do it. Doth not these wordes alone teche vs suffycyently, to knowe the myscheyfe of that heresye/ by whych they say that there is nothyng to be byleued with- out playn and euydent scrypture/ when we se now ys Tyndale vppon that doctryne of hys, forbedeth vs to honour the holy sacrament of the autre. Ye may se now y Iyndale vttered not all his false ware at onys. For fyrst he bygan wyth ymages/ then wyth relyques, then wyth sayntes, that we maye wurshyppe none of all these. And now at laste he techeth vs that we maye not worshyppe Crystes owne body in the blessed sacrament of the autre, nor put any fayth therin. Put ye no dowte but he wyll say the same by hys soule within a whyle, & sone ed to/ and at the laste by the godhed of the father and the holy ghoste bothe, and vttrely deny all thre. God is good lorde whyche maketh thys blasphemouse fole speke in the ende of hys blasphemy a few trew wordes, wyth whychr hym selfe destroyeth all hys whole abomynable doctryne. For he con- fesseth as ye haue herd/ that though he maye not byleue in Crystes chyrche, as though ys chyrche were his sauyour: yet he muste byleue Crystes chyrch / that the doctryne which they preche of Cryste is trew. And with these wordes of liys owne, wyll I strayne hym faste & sure. For I aske no more but these few wordes of his owne, to ys con- foundyng of all that euer he techeth agaynst our fayth. For now hath he wyth these wordes destroyed theffecte of hys heresye/ wherwyth he wolde draw all to an vnknowen chyrche of electes. For syth we muste byleue the doctryne & [ki] the prechyng of ye chyrche of Cryste, as Tyndale sayth hym selfe, and that can we neuer do but yf we know them whom we byleue/ and who be electys we can not knowe: farewell the force of all that heresye by Tyndales owne tale. And now syth he hath bounden hym selfe to confesse that the chyrche of Cryst is & muste nedys be a chyrche knowen here to men, and none suche can he name but onely the catholyke knowen chyrche of all Crysten nacyons, from whych he hath and doth labour to flyt and fle vnto a darke vnknowen chyrche of electes/ the strength of whyche heresye hys owne wordes here haue confounded: he must nedys confesse that Crystes chyrche is the chyrche that we be of, and out of whyche hym selfe is downe fallen by vnfaythfulnes in to ys depe dongeon of the deuyll. And now syth of hys owne confessyon he must byleue the doctryne of the chyrch of Cryste/ and of the same con- fessyon of hys owne it foloweth that the chyrche of Cryste is thys comon knowen chyrche, that hath from Crystes da es h therto contynued / and that it is euydent also that by the doctryne of that chyrche the doctryne of Tyndale concernynge the blessed sacrament is false/ for euer hath it ben by that chyrche of Cryste taught that the blessed sacrament shold be worshypped, and fayth to be put therin wherof Tyndale techeth ys contrary: it is ineuytably concluded vppon Tyndales owne wordes, that Tindale is agaynste Crystes owne blessed person, a dedly deuelyshe heretyke. Now syth ye playnely perceyue good crysten reders, that thys malycyouse man entendeth to tourne pore symple soulys out of the very fayth/ and of the.vii. holy sacramentes wolde take fyue awaye/ and the other twayne that he wolde seme to leue, he handeleth yet in such wyse as men may well se that he leueth them as frutelesse as the other/ and fynally in effecte beleueth neyther nother: there wyll no good man loke that we sholde now nede to proue these holy sacra- mentes to be trew, which all crysten peple haue this.xv.C. yere beleued/ bycause that now a fonde felow and a folyshe heretyque denyeth them / excepte that any man were so madde to dowte whyther there were any god at all, yf he happed to here any man so madde to say nay. And surely there was neuer secte of heretyques yet, that there was so great madnes to beleue as these. For of other heretyques that haue bene of olde/ euery secte had some one [kiv] heresye or ellys very tehwe helw hese heretyques come in wyth almoste all that euer all they held and yet mo to. All the other heretyques hadde some pre- texte of holynes in theyr lyuyng: these shamelesse heretiques lyue in open shamfull incestuouse lechery and call yt matrymony. The olde heretyques dyd stykke vppon scrypture when yt was yet in a manner new receyued/ and they contended vppon the vnder- standynge at such tyme as there had few crysten wryters expowned the scrypture byfore them, so as they myght the better say to the catolyque chyrch, why may not we perceyue ys scrypture as well as you: but these new heretyques be so farre fro shame/ that in the vnderstandynge of scrypture, and in the affyrmynge of all theyr heresyes/ they wolde be byleued by theyr onely worde, agaynste all the old holy doctours that haue bene synnys the deth of Criste vnto this daye/ and that in those roten heresyes to, whych they fynde con- demned to the deuyll by the generall counsayles of all crystendome a thousande yere afore theyr dayes/ and moost madde of all in denyeng the sacramentes whych they fynde receyued & byleued, vsed & honoured so clerely from the begynnynge / that neuer was there heretyque that durst for very shame so boldely barke agaynst them, tyll that now in these latter dayes the deuyll hath broke his chaynes, and of all extreme abomynacyon hathe set his poysoned barell a broche/ from ys dreggy draught wherof god kepe euery good crysten man, and such as hath dronken therof geue them grace to vomyte yt out agayne by tyme. This longe dygressyon haue I made you/ to lette you playnly se the sommary purpose and effecte of Tyndales doctryne touchynge the holy sacramentes/ whych knowen vnto good menne suffyseth to  make theyr hertes abhorre his dyuelyshe doctryn ferther argument. And as for them that at the bare herynge therof abhorre yt not/ they be surely so sore infected, that excepte the meruelouse mercy of god, neuer shall there eytllel reason or authorite make them sauour the trouth. But nowe that Tyndale hath commended vnto you the hygh spirytuall wysedome of vnfaythfull heretiques/ he begynneth on the tother syde to rebuke and reproue the trew fayth of all good people. Tyndale. But the world captyuateth his wyt, and aboute the law of god maketh hym [ki] wonderfull ymagynacyons/ vnto whyche he so faste cleueth, that tenne Iohan Baptistes were not able to dyspute them out of his hed. More. Now that Tyndale hathe done with his owne spyrituall parte, & hath as ye haue herd holyly declared how hygh spyrytuall wysedome they vse in serchynge the very botome of the cause in euery com- maundement that god geueth/ and accordynge to the thynge whych they take for the cause, so order them selfe eyther kepe the com- maundement or breke yt: now commeth he to thother parte/ that is to all that are no heretykes, whom he before called naturall and not borne agayne nor renewed with ys spyryt, all which folke he calleth here the worlde/ and sayth that the worlde captyuateth hys wyt, & about the law of god maketh liym wonderfull ymagynacyons/ vnto whych he so faste cleaueth that tenne Iohan Baptystes were not able to dyspute them oute of his hed. Here he meaneth that hym selfe and his felowes spyrytuall heuenly men/ be not captyuate vnto the lawe of god, as we pore worldely men of mydle erth be. For they be no ferther bounden to the law, but as the cause of the law sought out by them selfe, leadeth them to and fro/ and therfore they be in an euangelycall and in manner angelycall lybertye to do what they lyste/ so yt they geue the lawe some cause that may serue theyr luste, as they haue geuen to the law and com- maundement of vowes/ from whych they haue set them self in such a spyrytuall lybertye, that munkes and freres maye lawfully lye wyth nunnes and lyue in lechery, and call yt wedlocke. And in dede they may call yt wedlocke and they wyll as lollardes dyd of late, that put a pygge in to the water, on good frydaye/ and sayd go in pygge and come oute pyke / and so when they had chaunged the name, they toke yt for fyshe and ete yt. And so may these holy new spyrytuall men, when munkes and freres wedde nunnes, they may call yt wedloke & they will. But as the pore plough man sayd vnto the tauerner ys gaue hym water in stede of wyne, god thank you mayster wyner for your good wyne, but in good fayth sauynge for the worshypfull name of wyne iche had as leue a dronken water: surely so may we well saye to these new holy spyrytuall maryed munkes and frerys / sauynge for the worshypfull name of wedloke, yt were as good they lyued in lecherye, as in suche byched bychery. [kiv] But we sely sowles of the worlde here, be captyuate and bounde he sayth and not in suche an heuynly lybertye / but make our selfe wonderfull ymagynacyons aboute the lawe of god, whyche thynge mych I meruayle of For the worlde is not often wonte to muse mych vppon the lawes of god nor greatly to studye vppon them, but let them go by well and easely & thynke lytell on them/ nor nede not Iohan Baptyste to dyspute out of theyr hedys any wonderfull ymagy- nacyons that they haue studyed aboute the law of god. But Mary on the other syde, these new spyrytuall men, haue wyth theyr new lybertye made them selfe wonderfull ymagynacyons to which they cleaue so faste, that.xv. Iohan Baptystes can not dyspute them out of theyr hedys. For they haue to the greate wonder of the worlde made them an ymagynacyon, that frerys maye lyue in lecherye wyth nunnes, and neuer nede do penaunce neyther for that nor for any synne ellys, but repente and do so styll and byleue that all is well, & do no penaunce nor take no payne for any synne at all. Now euery man well woteth that saynt Iohan the Baptyste dyd dyspute agaynst these ymagynacyons of theyrs, bothe wyth hys lyuynge and hys techynge. For agaynste theyr lechery his lyuyng dysputed wyth chastyte/ & agaynst theyr heresye of penaunce, he dysputed wyth prechynge penaunce. For he bad them, not euery boye go forth and take hym selfe for an apostle and go preche, but he cryed vppon them to do penaunce/ and not onely bad them repente and do penaunce, but also bad them yf they wolde auoyde hell and ys wrath that ellys was to come, they shulde do worthy frutes of penaunce. And bycause that they sholde not wene that it was but a worde of offyce, and that it suffysed to byleue well in goddys promyse, and so go theyr way & thynke them selfe saue: he shewed them in hym selfe and hys owne lyuynge, for theyr instytucyon not for the deseruyng of his owne synne, a forme and fashyon of a repentaunt synner in what wyse he sholde do penaunce. And therfore he lyued solytary, sauynge that hys vertues caused hym to be vysyted. He lyued in holy vowed chastyte and neuer wedded woman in hys dayes, nor neuer wolde haue done though he had lyued twyes as longe as Luther. He lyued in pore and paynfull apparell. He lyued in watche and prayours, in fastyng and forberynge meate. He dranke no wyne, but was content [ki maner of penaunce doynge dyd saynt Iohan Baptyste teche and dyspute, contrary to ye false ymagynacyons agaynst penaunce, and wonderfull deuyses of lewde lecherous lyuynge that these new spyrytuall men haue in theyr fantasye framed/ whyche neyther saynt Iohan Baptiste nor such tenne saynt Iohan Baptystes, nor our sauyour Cryste hym selfe can dyspute out of theyr hedys. Tyndale. He byleueth that he loueth god bycause he is redy to kyll a Turke for his sake that byleueth better in god then he/ whom god also com- maundeth vs to loue and to leaue nothynge vnsoughte to wynne hym vnto the knowlegeof the trouthe, though wyth the losse of our lyues. More. Here Tyndale foloweth hys mayster Luther, that wold haue all crysten men suffer the Turkes and fyghte not with them. How be it vnderstonde by Tyndale in hys boke after, that Luther hath eaten vp his worde agayne afterward for fere, when he saw his countrye pre- pare them selfe agaynst the Turkes. But now Tyndale that is out of suche fere/ is as it semeth dysposed to maynteyne and set forth hys maysters formar errour agayne. For he layeth it to the charge of the catholycall chyrche, as a chyefe and pryncypall fawte ys we take it as a token of loue to god yf a man haue a mynde for goddes sake to go fyghte agaynst the Turkes. But as madly as he mokketh it/ a good token is it of loue to god for all that. For he that is for goddes sake content in the defence of other folke hys innocent crysten brethern, agaynst the infidelys the enemyes of god and them, to put his owne lyfe in payne and parell of deth: we maye be bolde wyth Tyndales lycence whyle we haue Luthers leue all redy, to warraunt that it is a token of good and ordynate loue to god, and for god to hys neyghbour. For though we sholde loue infydelys to make them faythfull and be glad to suffer for them/ yf our suffrauns wolde brynge them to the fayth, yet are we not bounden to loue them aboue the householde folke of Cryste, and famylyars of our owne crysten fayth / and namely so farre, that whyle they come, not to lerne ys crysten fayth but to kyll the crysten men, a prynce that hath the rule of vs sholde suffer them to kyll on and stonde styll by and preche. I dowte not therfore but how holyly so euer it pleaseth father Tindale here preche in fauour of ys Turkes / a prince [kiv] may assemble hys hoost, and of good zele with grete thanke of god, go agaynst them and kyll them as well and better to, then Moyses kylled the Egypcian that foughte wyth the Hebrew. And therfore we shall not I truste greatly nede to fere ye great worde that Tyndale in the Turkes fauour speketh, agaynst those that wyll go and fyght agaynst them / where he sayth that the Turke byleueth better in god then suche a crysten man. Wherin yf Tyndale sayde trew as god be thanked he lyeth: how byleueth then Tyndale hym selfe in god, whych (as his charytable bokes well declare) wold be well content that heretyques and infydeles, shold wyth sedycyon or open warre kyll vp the clergye of the catholycall chyrch, and the great parte of such good people bysyde, as wolde be aduersaryes to theyr pestyferouse heresyes. Tyndale. He supposeth that he loueth his neyghbour as mych as he is bounde, yf he be not actually angrye wyth hym/ whom yet he wyll not helpe frely wyth an halfpenny, but for auauntage or vayne glorye or for a worldly purpose. lf any ma, haue displeased hym, he kepeth his malyce in and wyll not chafe hym self aboute yt, tyll he se an occasyon to auenge yt craftely, and thynketh that well inough. And the rulers of the worlde he obeyth thynketh he, when he flatereth them, and byndeth them wyth gyftes and corrupteth theoffycers with rewardes, and begyleth the law wyth cauteles and sotyltyes. And because the loue of god and his neyghbour, whychis the spyryte and the lyffe of all lawes, and wherfore all lawes ar made,is not writen in his herte: therfore in all inferiour lawes and in all worldly ordynaunces, is he betell blynde. More. All this gere is but a fardell full of lyes/ and that woteth Tyndale hym selfe well inough. For all be yt that there be mo then inough that in the catholycall chyrch of Cryste that vse to commytte such synnes: yet vse they not to thynke that they do well, and fulfyll the law of god in doynge/ but they both byleue and confesse the contrarye, and to theyr confessour knowlege yt as yt is for synne. For though men in the catholyque chyrch do synne/ yet to take yt for no synne, but for holynes & vertue/ this is neyther the doctryne nor manner & gyse of the catholyque chyrch of Cryste. But this is in very dede the belyef or at the leste wyse the gyse and custome of Tyndales chyrch & Luthers and frere Huskens. For they haue the loue of god and theyr neyghbour, the spyryte and lyfe of all lawes so well and wy[ki]sely wryten in theyr hartes/ ys they can not be but feruently taken in theyr lewde lecherouse loue/ nor be notin inferiour lawes and worldly ordynaunces so betyll blynded, but that a frere can fynde the way to a nunnes bed and it be at mydnyght, and after in the open day abyde thereby, and auowe the breche of theyr vowe boldely for very well done and holyly/ and when he thus doeth, begyleth not the lawes wyth cawtels and subtyltees, but boldely breketh them vp lyke a stronge man, and bereth it owt bygly wyth shamelesse deuelysshe heresye. Tyndale. And yf he be commaunded to absteyne from wyne, that wyll he obserue vnt, the deth to/ as charterhouse munkes had leuer dye then eate fleshe. And as for the sobernes and chastysynge of the members wyll he not loke for/ but wyll powre in ale and beare of the strongeste wythout measure, and heate them with spyces and so forth. More. As for the munkes of the charter house, wolde god we were no ferther from very vertuouse deuocyon, then those good men be from vnlawfull superstycyon / amonge whom god be thanked we se many lyue to very greate age, and neuer herde I yet that any dyed for lacke of eatynge flesshe/ & yet herde I neuer that any of them haue eaten any, sauyng some suche as haue comen from theyr cloysters in to Luthers chyrche/ as Otho dyd in Almayne, whyche ronne out of the charter house and lefte fysshe and fell to flesshe all togyder, and toke a wyfe for sobrenesse and chastysynge of his monkely membres as Tyndale speketh. Tyndale. And the holy daye wyll he kepe so strayte, that yf he mete a flee in ys bedde he dare not kyll her/ and not ones regarde wherfore the was ordeyned to seke for goddes worde/ and so forth in all lawes. More. Tyndale I thynke hath not knowen many kepe the holy day so strayte/ ys wolde feare to kyll a flee as it pleaseth hym to ieste. But yet had I leuer ys men wold kepe it so strayt as he speketh/ then kepe it so losely as they do. But they ys kepe it so losely/ be neyther aferd I warraunt you to kyll a fle nor to do wors neyther. And who so euer wold kepe it so strayt, as to forbere the kyllynge of a fle in hys bed: wolde kepe it better then do the freres of Luthers chyrche, that let not on the holy daye to take a nonne to bedde. For as for herynge [kiv] of goddys worde, in many places in Almayne among theyr holy sectys, where they were in the begynnyng wonderfull hote vppon sermons: they be now blessed by god waxen colde inough. Fyrst in many places they sange the seruyce in theyr mother tonge, men and women and all/ and that was a prety sporte for them for a whyle. But after a lytell vse therof, the pleasure of the neweltye passed, and they set somwhat lesse therby then by a thre mannes songe. They chaunged also the masse/ and sone after that many cast it vp clene. Then was all theyr luste layed vppon prechynge, specyally bycause euery man myghte preche that wolde/ sayenge that they folowed the counsayle ofsaynt paule/ whvle one wolde byd the prechyer holde hys peace and let hym speke a nother whyle, affyrmynge that the spyryte had reueled hym the right sense, and that the precher lyed. Thus turned they sermons in brawlynges, so that somtyme the people parted them from poyntynge theyr prechynges wyth fystes. But now as I here saye that maner is well amended/ they can suffer one to preche as longe as it please hym, and no man ones interrupte hym/ for they be there waxen women and all so cunnynge, that scantly come any to here hym. And thus doeth Tyndales chyrche and Luthers syt at home in theyr stewys in honour of theyr holy daye. Tyndale. And in ceremonyes and sacramentes there he captyuateth his wyt and vnderstandynge to obey holy chyrch, wythout askynge what they meane or desyrynge to knowe / but onely careth for the kepynge, and loketh euer wyth a payre of narow eyes and wyth all his spectacles vppon theym leste ought be lefte oute. The ceremonyes and sacramentes Tyndale maketh his mokkynge stokke/ but let hym beware by tyme lest god mokke hym agayne. Better is it good crysten reader to do the thynge ys Tyndale here reproueth / men to doe that is to wyt a man to captyuate hys wytte and vndeistandynge and obay holy chyrche in the ceremonyes and sacramentes, and kepe them well wythoute ferther serche: then to doas Tyndale hath done, that with hys curyouse serche hath so narowly so longe pryed vppon them, wyth betle browes and his brytell spectacles of pryde and malice, that the deuyll hath stryken hym starke blynde/ [1i] and set hym in a corner wyth a chayne and a clogge, & made hym hys ape to syt there and serue hym and to make hym sporte, with mokkynge and mowynge and pottynge the sacramentes, whyche yet the deuyll dredyth hym selfe & dare not come anere them. Tyndale. For yf the preste sholde saye masse, baptyze, or he,e confessyon wythoute a stole aboute his necke/ he wolde thynke all were marred, and doute whyther he had power to consecrate/ and thynke that the vertue of the masse were loste and that chylde not well baptysed or not baptyzed at all/ and that his absolucyon were notworth a myte. More. Thys is another ferdell full of lyes, and that he woteth well inough. For yf the preste lefte of hys stole/ folke wolde then saye he dyd lewdely as they myght well saye in dede. But Tyndale knoweth full well that folke do not reken the sacrament hurted therby. For he knoweth well that chyldren be somtyme crystened of the mydwyfes hande/ and ys people knoweth well that she vseth no stole. And thus euery body well perceyueth how shameles Tyndale is in these lyes. Tyndale. He hadde leuer that the byshopes shold wagge two fyngers ouer hym/ then that a nother man shold saye god saue hym and so forth. More. Blessynge of bysshopes Tyndale iesteth vpon in mo places then one. And for as mych as he knoweth well that all crysten people haue and euer haue had a good faythfull byleue in blessynge, both where a man or woman blesse them selfe, and also where as any that hath authoryte ouer them gyuen by god to blesse them, whyche is a kynde of prayour and inuocacyon of goddes grace vppon the partye so blessed wyth the sygne of the crosse / as the naturall father or the godfather blesseth the chylde, or the curate his paryshen, or the bysshope his diocesane: such thynges Tyndale taketh for tryfels, and laugeth such blessynge and crossynge to skorne. For in his boke of obedyence, the laynge of the bysshops hande vppon the preste in geuynge the sacrament of holy orders, he resem- bleth to the layeng of a mannes hande vppon a boyes hed when he calleth hym good sonne. And ye blessynge as he calleth yt here the waggynge of two fyngers/ so he calleth yt there the waggynge of the hande in the ayre. [1iv] How be yt we nede not mych to meruayle though Tyndale and Luther and frere Huskyn and theyr felowes, sette lytle by the sygne of the crosse made by a mannes hande in the ayre/ syth we se that they set so lytle by an ymage of the crucyfyx, and also by Crystes holy crosse yt selfe/ wherof Luther wryteth that yf he had all the peaces, he wolde caste them all there as neuer sonne shold shyne vppon them. But all crysten men syth Crystes deth hytherwarde/ hath set mych by that kyndc of blessynge, in whych the sygne of the crosse is made vppon a man eyther by hym selfe or by a nother. And not a few storyes are there that testyfye great thynges done in the vertue of that sygne / not onely amonge good crysten men, but also sometyme amonge euyll men and the very infydeles them selfe. And though that I entende not to prolonge this worke wyth wrytynge of storyes: yet commeth there one to my mynde so mete for the mater, and wryten by so great authoryte, that I cane not let yt passe. Saynt Gregory Nazianzene the great famouse olde doctour, wrytynge in his seconde oracyon made agaynste the great emperour infydele com- menly called Iulianus apostata, wryteth that when that man was fallen from the fayth of cryste vnto paganysme and gentylyte / geuynge hym self therewyth not onely to the persecucyon of crysten men, but also to the folowynge of euery kynde of superstycyouse foly: he toke with hym on a tyme certayne necromancyers, and went in to a caue to coniure vp spyrites, to enquyre of them certayne thynges wherof he was very curyouse to knowe. And when he was in the pyt amonge them with theyr coniuracyons, there appered many terryble syghtes, so far forth that all be yt wyth the truste of his coniuracyons he bare yt oute a whyle, yet at the laste the terrour and feare so sore en- creased, that he was fayne for the surest refuge to blesse him selfe wyth the sygne of the crosse, whych he so pursued and hated. At whyche onely sygne so made wyth the waggynge (as Tyndale calleth yt) of his hande in the ayre, as euyll an hande as yt was: yet were all the deuyls so sore a frayed, ys all theyr ferefull illusyons fayled & as vanyshed quyte away. Lo what a force and strength hathe that fasshyon of blessyng that Tyndale setteth at so lyght? wherin many a man dayly fyndeth great profyte, in auoydynge of temtacions of our goostly enimye the deuyll, and in manye a soden fere of [1i] the fende. And I lytle doute but as Tyndale foloweth Iulianus apostata in fallynge from the ryght fayth: so wold he at a nede folowe hym also blessynge to. For as lytle as Tyndale setteth by blessynge now: yet yf he myghte ones mete ys deuyll in the darke, he wolde I warraunte you crosse and blesse a pace. And I beseche our lorde to gyue hym grace so to blesse hym self by tyme, that he mete not the deuyll in eternall derkenes, where who so myshape to mete hym, can haue no grace to crosse and to blesse hym selfe/ but shall in stede of crossynge and blessynge, fall all to cursynge and desperate sorowe and furyouse blasphemynge wythout comforte and Wythoute ende. Tyndale. Wherfore beloued reader in as mych as the holy gooste rebuketh the worlde for lacke of iudgement/ and in as mych also as theyr ignor- aunce is wythoute excuse/ before whose faces inough is set to iudge by, yf they wolde open theyr yies to se, and not captyuate theyr vnderstandynge to beleue lyes/ and in as mych as the spyrytuall iudgeth all thynge euen the very botome of goddes secretes, that is to say the causes of the thynges whych god commaundeth: how mych more ought we to iudge our holy fathers secretes, and not to be as an oxe or an asse wythout vnderstandynge. More. It appereth well that the holy goost accordynge to the wordes of our sauyour at his laste souper, whyche wordes Tyndale wold falsely wreste awrye/ dyd rebuke the Iewes and the gentyles for lacke of iudgement, and that the he taught chyrch of Cryste the true iudgement/ by whych euer synnys Crystes dayes by the iudgement of holy sayntes and all good crysten people bysyde, such thynges as now Luther & Tyndale and frere Huskyn do teache, haue ben alway iudged for heresyes. And this is open afore euery mannes yies/ excepte we wold wyllyngly captyuate our vnderstandynge to byleue Luthers lyes. And therfore those that folow them of theyr ignoraunce/ haue none excuse when they se agaynst the hole consent of crystendome so many hundred yeres contynewed, foure or fyue fond frerys runne oute of relygyon and lyuynge in lechery, take vppon them selfe to preche and saye to the people of them selfe, we be the spyrytuales, we serche the botome of goddes secretes, we serch the causes of goddes commaundement, we vnderstande the scrypture in his ryght sense/ and all that haue ben called holy doctours & in[liv]terpreters byfore our dayes, were eyther false or folys, and haue eyther of euyll wyll or of ignor uthat brought all crysten nacyons oute of the ryght fayth/ god hath of hys hygh goodnes sent vs & our wyues to preche fayth, and teche heresye, and shew lechery/ to torne the worlde to grace. Now he that wolde in the declaracyon and vnderstandynge of the scrypture of Cryste and hys apostels, byleue suche a few flesshly blynde apostatas agaynst so many holy blessyd doctours and sayntes: what excuse coude hys ignorans haue afore god? were not he a very oxe & an asse wythout wyt or vnderstandyng? Tyndale. Iudge therfore crysten reader, whyther the pope wyth his be the chyrche. More. When Tyndale speketh of the pope wyth hys/ here vseth he a lytell sophystrye. For he leueth vs in dowte what he meaneth by these wordes, the pope wyth hys. If he meane the pope wyth hys cardynals/ then speketh he lytell to the purpose. For I neuer called nor no man ellys, the pope and the cardynals the hole catholyke chyrche. But yf he meane by the pope and hys, the pope and all the crysten reames and countrees that haue not by scysmes and heresyes departed and seuered them selfe from ye corps of crystendome: he that then iudgeth the pope and hys to be the chyrche of cryste, iudgeth as it is in dede. Now yf Tyndale brynge in questyon whyther the pope be of all those crysten countrees the chyefe spyrytuall hed vnder god and generall vycare of cryste: thys questyon wyll not helpe hym. For yf there eyther yet be, or any tyme hath ben, that eyther the Grekes or any other parte of trewe crystendome dyd not recognyse the pope for theyr chyefe spyrytuall gouernour vnder god: yet alwaye those that were lernyd or good men amonge them, and the hole people wyth them, in the necessarye artycles were of the same fayth, and con- fyrmed them selfe to the see of Rome, in such thynges as amonge them bygan to be disputable/ as well appereth not onely by saynte Chrysostome and other olde holy doctours of the Grekes, but also by the generall counsayles, in which the Grekes in matters of dowte and questyon, fynally confermed them selfe to the Latyns and to the see ostolyke- chyrche and pretour Iohans chyrche to, and euery chyrche that bare the name of any good crystendome/ ye and euery chyrche also of any honest heretykes to, and the chyrche of Panymes and Turkes to, and the chyrche of Saracyns to (syth Tyndale wyll haue them all called chyrches) and fynally the chyrche of all mankynde synnes the erth was well inhabyted, as many as euer haue knowen so mych as the name of god: hath euer hytherto dampned the chyrche of Luther and Tyndale & frere Huskyn, that care not to breke theyr promyse made to god, and contrary to all honestye make mokkes of theyr vowes/ and voyde of shame auow theyr fylthy lechery for honeste wedlocke and lawfull matrymonye. Tyndale. Iudge whyther theyr authoryte be aboue the scrypture, whether all that they teache wythoute scrypture be equall wyth the scripture, whyther they haue erred and not onely whyther they can. More. Iudge here good reader whyther that Tyndale playe ye parte of an honest man, when the power & authoryte whiche the chyrche ascrybeth vnto god and hys holy spyryte/ Tyndale wolde make you byleue that they do take and ascrybe it vnto them selfe. For no man sayth that any man is aboue the worde of god / but we saye boldely that hys worde vnwryten is egall and as stronge as hys worde wryten/ and that he is aswell to be by- leued wythout wrytynge as wyth wrytynge/ & that hym selfe and hys holy spyryte, vnderstondeth hys owne Wrytynge better then all the creatures of the hole worlde. And then we say also that god by the mouth of our sauyour hath promysed that hym selfe wyth hys holy spyryte shall euer be assystent with hys chyrch/ & that he shall alwaye instructe hys chyrche and lede it in to euery trouth. And we say that he kepeth, and euer hath kepte, and euer shall kepe that promyse. And therfore we say yt he teacheth hys chyrch all trewth/ I meane all trewth necessary as hym self meant for theyr saluacyon, that is to wytte all suche thynge as he wyll vppon payne of damnacyon haue them boundcn to byleue. I say also that vppon thys it muste nedys folow, ys all be it our lord doeth suffer his chyrche to erre in the knowledge of a facte or dede done among men: yet wyll he neuer suffer yt to erre and be deceyued in the knowledge of hys [1iv] lawe, to whych he wyll haue it bounden, and in the tyme in whyche lie wyll haue it bounden therto. And ther- fore wyll he neuer suffer hys chyrche to take, repute, & iudge a thynge for synfull and damnable, that is of trouthe good & pleasynge to god. For then sholde he therby cause hys chyrche to leue good vertuose thynges vndone them selfe, and also to forebede it other folke as thynges vycyouse and dyspleasaunt to god/ and then were hys promyse broken, syth that the holy goost had not then tawght them the trouthe necessary, but had suffred them to be ledde in to dampnable vntrowth. Then saye I ferder that yt consequently foloweth also, that god shall mych lesse suffer his chyrche to take for good and pleasynge to god the thynge that is very nought and odyouse vnto god and damn- able to yt selfe. For then shold his chyrche by such errour not onely leue the good vndone, but also do the euyll, and not know whych way to mende it. And of these thynges I saye ys yt foloweth necessaryly, that though the chyrch be not aboue the scripture and holy wryt: yet yt is so taught by the spyryte of god and his holy secrcte inwarde worde vnwrytten, that yt can not be dampnably deceyued in the vnderstandynge of his holy scrypture wryten. And theruppon yet farther foloweth, that all such as so conster the scrypture that they wolde make the scrypture seme to be contrarye to the fayth of Cristes chyrch: do damnably conster yt contrary to the teachynge of god and his holy spiryte. Whyche by his owne promyse dothe alwaye teache his chyrche, and alwaye ledeth yt and alway shall lede yt, in to euery necessary trouth / and that vnto thende of the worlde accordynge to the wordes of our sauyour Cryste hym selfe. Of these poyntes Tyndale denyeth vs there. One is that any thynge is certaynly to be byleued, excepte onely the scripture, and yet that muste be as Luther sayth euydent open and playne/ of whych ys contrary hath ben so often proued vnto hym, so euydent, open, and playne, that if Tyndale were not euydent, open, and playne shamelesse, his herte wold neuer serue hym for very shame to speke any more of ys poynt. The tother poynte is, that he denyeth the catholyke knowen chyrch to be the chyrch of Cryste, and putteth yt in question whych is the chyrch/ and fynally putteth for the chyrche of Criste here militaunt in erth the onely secret vnknowen folke that are predestynate. The Thyrde is that he putteth also [1i] in questyon, whyther the chyrche maye fall in to dampnable errour. And thereto he sayth that the chyrche of electes doth erre, but yet it doth not erre. And for asmych as these thynges be the chyefe thynges wherof hys boke treateth, lyke wyse as they that haue wyt and lernynge do all redy fynde hys handelyng ofthese maters full of malyce & very voyde of trewth: so I trust when we come hereafter to the places, to make ryght meane lerned folke and meane wytted to, perceyue that all hys hygh inuencyon that he wolde haue seme so sothc, is in very dede a very madde mannys dreme. Tyndale. And agaynste the myste of theyr sophystrye take the ensamples that are paste in the olde testament, and autentyke storyes, and the present practyse whych thou seest before thyne yies. More. We be well content that these thynges trye the myste of bothe partyes/ so that Tyndale take wyth hym one thynge or twayne more, which I meruayle wherfore he now leueth oute, sauynge that he seeth well that they wyll clerely dyssypate and dyscusse the myste that he fayne wolde walke in. For ellys why leueth he clene out the new testa- ment now? we must praye hym that we may take in that to. And for asmych as we do on bothe the sydes agre vppon the texte of scrypture, and that the questyon mych lyeth whyther Tyndale and hys felowes vnderstond it ryght or ellys the hole chyrche of all crysten nacyons: we shall praye hym to be content that we may laye forth in ys behalfe the mynde of the olde holy doctours and sayntes, whych wrote of these maters so many hundred yeres ere euen thys busynes began, and wrote not for the pleasure of eyther other partye. And them wyll we the rather allege, bycause Tyndale aswell in hys boke ,, of obedyence, as in dyuers places of thys boke is not ashamed to saye that we wyll not byleue the olde holy doctours, but that they do and be of ys bylefe that those holy fathers were/ and as I say he is not ashamed to wryte this, ye and that very often, when he woteth well that amonge them all he can not fynde one that euer byleued other, but that it was a shamefull abomynable synne a monke to mary a nonne/ whyche thynge hereafter in thys boke Tyndale so folyshly defendeth, that sauynge for pytye to se any man so madde, one that laye sore sycke coude not forbere to lawghe at it. [1iv] Tyndale. Iudge whyther yt be possible that any good sholde come oute of theyr domme ceremonyes and sacramentes in to thy soule. Iudge theyr penaunce, pylgrymages, pardones, purgatorye, praynge to postes, domme blessy,ges, domme absolucyons, theyr domme paterynge and halowynge, theyr domme straunge holy gestures, wyth all theyr domme disgysynges, theyr satisfaccyons and iustefyenge. And because thou fyndest them false in so many thynges/ truste them innothynge, but iudge them in all thinges. More. Iudge good crysten reader whyther yt be possyble that he be any better then a beste/ oute of whose brutyshe bestely mouth, commeth such a fylthye fome of blasphemyes agaynst crystes holy ceremonyes and blessed sacramentes, sent in to his chyrche out of his owne blessed bloody syde. And for bycause ye fynde this felowe so frantike and so false in the raylynge and iestynge agaynste the sacramentes of Cryste: ye may well iudge that who so can delyte or be content with his blasphemouse rybauldy, hath great cause in hym self to fere that his crysten fayth begynneth to fayle and faynte. Tyndale. Marke at the laste the practyse of our fleshely spirytualtye, and theyr wayes by whyche they haue walked aboue.viij. hondred yeres/ how they stablyshe theyr lyes fyrst wyth falsyfyenge the scrypture, then thorow corruptyng with theyr ryches wherof they haue infynyte ireasure in story, and laste of all with the swerde. More. Ye mary marke I praye you. For this is mych to be marked lo, yt Tyndale can not bere the flesshelynes of oure spyrytualtye, bycause the flesshelynes of theyr chyrch is spyrytuall. For the flesshely wedded harlotes of theyr chyrche be theyr chyef holy spyrytuall fathers, and holy spyrytuall mothers, monkes, freres, and nunnes. And bycause theyr holy chyrch is but new bygonne / Tyndale wolde we shold wene, that this.viii. hundred yere and more Criste hath had no chyrch in the worlde at all. For so longe sayth Tyndale all hath be nought/ by the reason that all this whyle the clergye hath falsyfyed the scrypture, and hyred men wyth gyftes, and compelled them wyth the swerde to byleue them/ & so all this.viii. hundred yeres sayth Tyndale by these meanes all the crysten nacyons haue in stede oftrue fayth byleued false lyes, and so haue ben out of the fayth & all nought. If Tyndale dyd not lye now, as blyssed be god he doth/ [mi] here had ben a grete gappe in crystendome thys.xv.C. yere. And Where had Crystes promyse ben then all thys whyle? with his electes? Nay yf this chyrch haue had all this while false sacramentes/ Cryste hath had none electes all thys whyle. For they haue vsed what so euer Tyndale saye, the same sacramentes that theyr neyghbours dyd. I wolde also that he had tolde vs how mych more then.viii.C. yeres the chyrche hath had false sacramentes/ lest that ys he calleth now more, he shall hereafter call yt mych more. For therto shall he be faine to fall, or els to call these.viii.C. bakke agayne, and confesse the sacramentes true/ or fynally (whyche he is most lykely to do) bable on styll agaynst all reason agaynst all good men and agaynst all scrypture/ and so that he be talkynge neuer care what, whereof, nor how. For I am sure that in the sacramentes and in ys knowlege of the chyrche, hys malycyouse folye is reproued by the olde holy doctours aboue hys.viii.C. yere almoste as many mo, and ouer that by playne scrypture to. Tyndale. Haue they not compelled the emperours of the erth and the great lordes and hyeoffycers, to be obedyent vnto them, to dispute for them/ and to be theyre tormentours/ and the samsumyms them selfes do but ymagen myschyef and inspyre them. '' More. Here is all the great anger that greueth this good man/ that eyther lorde, kynge, or emperour medleth any thynge for the mayntenaunce of the fayth, or set to theyr handes to the repressynge of heresyes. But yf Tyndale fynde thys for a fawte/ he must go farre aboue hys .viii.C. yere. For it is farre aboue a thousande synnys that as euyll lordes, prynces, and emperours, haue holpen and mayntened here- tykes/ so lyke wyse good lordes, prynces, & emperours haue set to theyr handes to subdewe them. And theyr maynteners haue vany- sshed awaye wyth them, and theyr amenders and punysshers god hath mayntened and fauored/ and good godly men haue called vppon prynces for theyr ayde and assystence in suche case, and at theyr instaunce and pursuyt haue prynces and emperours bothe punysshed them, & made many good lawes agaynste them. Tyndale. Marke whether yt were euer trewer then now. The scrybes, pharyseys, py[miv]late, Herode, Cayphas, and Anna/ are gathered to gether agaynste god and Criste, but yet I truste in vayne/ and that he that brake the counsell of Achitophell, shall scatter theyrs. More. Marke now good crysten reader when Tyndale hath told vs that the ryght fayth is heresye and heresye ryght fayth/ and when he weneth that he hath made men so wyse, and we wolde at his worde take whyte for blacke and black for whyte, and god for the deuyll, and the deuyll for god: then when he weneth that he hath made men so blynde, he byddeth loke and marke that all emperours, kynges, prynces, lordes and prelates, and euery kynde of crysten people that any thynge do or saye agaynst heretyques / all they be Pylates, Herodes, Cayphas, and Annas, and are gathered agaynste Cryste sayth Tyndale, that is to wytte in dede agaynst heretyques that labour both wyth false heresyes to destroy the true fayth of Cryste, and also wyth theyr traytorouse settynge forth of sedycyons to rayse rebellyons as they dyd in Almayne, and therby destroye Crystes good crysten people. For surely good reader though men may aue fayth and yet lacke charyte, as saynt Paule sayth, and saynt Iamis to, euery one of whyche two is worthy more fayth and credens, then fyften hundred thousand Tyndales that telleth vs the contrarye/ but though a man maye as I saye haue fayth and lacke charyte: yet yfhe lacke fayth, he may well haue loue, but he can not haue no charyte. And therfore syth Tyndale is thus runne out of ye ryght fayth/ neuer truste his fals loue lakkyng charite. For surely to wynne his conclusyon, and brynge in his heresyes, and to get therof the vayne glorye to be taken for an apostle: he wolde se seuen cytees burne & warme hym selfe by the fyre. And euen in this place he maketh a manner of mocyon therof, shewyng hym self to haue some trust to worke wonders at length. For he maketh as though ys princes ys wold represse heresyes were as Absolon with his army & Achytophell therin, that persecute kynge Dauid / as though frere Luther & his wyfe, wyth his fond felowes & theyr lem- mans, were lyke to kynge Dauid and his hoste. And then hath Tyndale a truste that some Chusye that is some chyeftayn of Luthers counsayle, whych he meaneth as yt semeth shalbe hym self/ shall by his hygh wisedome make as though he were a faith[mi]full frende and begyle all the company, and so scater them and make them to be taken and slayne, as Absolon was and his folke. But lyke wyse aS Tyndales hole storye serueth here all agaynste his purpose, bycause that here the trueth doth of good mynde labour to put downe falshed/ and Tyndale wyth his mayster & his fonde feleshyp wyth theyr fayned fayre holy speche lyke absolon wyth his fayre here, enforce them selfe to brynge in false heresyes and destroy the true fayth: why Tyndale sholde be lyke to Chusy that can I nothynge se, sauynge onely for one thynge, that for policye Chusy made a lye, and therin Tyndale ouer matcheth hym far, for he sayth neuer trew. Tyndale. Marke whyther yt be not true in the hyest degre, that for the synne of the people hypocrytes shall raygne,uer them. What shewes, what faces, and contrarye pretenses are made/ and all to stablysh them in theyr thefte, falshed, and damnable lyes / and to gather them to gether for to contryue sotyltye, to oppresse the trueth, and to stoppe the lyght, and to kepe all styll in darkenes. More. Tyndale is a great marker/ there is nothynge with hym now but marke, marke, marke. It is pytye yt the man were not made a marker of chases in some tenys playe. For in good fayth he sholde be therin mych better occupyed than he is in this/ when he sytteth and marketh all other mennis fautes and leueth his owne vnmarked/ whych euery other man marketh well inough. He byddeth the people marke that theyr prynces are hypocrytes in the hyghest degre/ and so he teacheth theyr subiectes to haue them in good opynyon and reuerens. But I am glad as helpe me god on the tother syde, that the holy spyrytuall hedes of Tyndales heresyes, as frere Luther & frere Huskyn, and all the hole pakke of the pryncypall fathers of all theyr frantyque sectes, haue lefte of a pece of theyr hypocrysye, and by theyr fylthy weddynge shewed them selfe playne open rybaudes. Tyndale. Wherfore yt is tyme to a wake and se euery man wyth his owne eyes and to iudge, yf we wyll not be iudged of Cryste when he cometh to iudge. And remember that he whych is warned hathnone excuse, yf he take no hede. Here wyth fare well in the lorde Iesu Cryste, whose spyryte be thy gyde and doctryne thy lyght to iudge wyth all. Amen. [miv] More. Tyndale neuer spake better then he doth euyn here. For of trouth good crysten reader it is hygh tyme to awake and loke euery man wyth hys owne eyes/ and that tyme was neuer so conuenyent as now. For in all other heretykes before thys tyme/ euery man was not able to perceyue them with hys owne eyes. Heresyes wcre comenly sum, what subtyle and hadde apparent textes in scrypture, that falsely taken semed to make for them. And then had theyr lyuynge such a pretence of honesty and clennesse/ that these thynges so blered the vnlerned peoples eyes, that they were not able to iudge these men and theyr maters euery man hym selfe wyth hys owne eyes/ but they folowed the iudgement of wyser and better and better lerned/ and by theyr teachynge and good holy doctryne, they sawe and perceyued ye tother fayned and false. But mary now god hath (lawd and thanke be to hym) brought these felowes and theyr heresyes in a nother case. For he hath suffred them of hys hygh goodnes to shewe them selfe at laste, & to falle in to such open bestely fawtes, frerys & nunnes crepyng to bedde to gyther, and then to preche & teche theyr shameles lechery boldely about for good & laufull matrymony, that they haue therby now set out theyr gere so syghtely, that euery man maye well & playnly se suche open rybawdry wyth hys owne eyes, and well and easely iudge the thynge for synne and bestely bychery, and the defence therof for a shamefull shameles heresye, and the prechers th-erof for more then monstruose heretykes. And therfore of thys be Tyndales wordes well verefyed/ that euery man maye and must awake, and se wyth hys owne eyes thys abomynable bychery of these bolde bestely prechers, that laye frerys and nonnys abedde togyder and call them man and wyfe. This must euery man iudge for abomynable heresye/ yf we wyll not be iudged of Cryste when he cometh to iudge. And therfore when Tyndale closeth vp hys preface with a solempne threte/ byddynge men to remembre now that he whych is warned hath none excuse yf he take none hede: he sayth as trewe as the gospell but all agaynst hym selfe. For thys open heresye of frerys fylthy matrymony gyueth vs so playne and open warnynge of theyr worldly flesshly deuylysshe spyryte, so playne agaynste all holy scrypture and all good honest men: that live neuer coude haue excuse afore [mi] god, yf we wolde gyue suche prechers so bolde in suche rybawdry, eyther fayth or credence or fauorable herynge: namely syth there was neuer in all crystendome syth the fayth fyrst began any holy doctour, nor doctour good or bad before Luthers dayes that any thynge hath wryten/ but he hath abhorred and detested it to the deuyll of hell, that euer any person eyther man or woman, that hath vowed them selfe monke, frere, or nunne/ sholde afterward ronne out of theyr relygyon, caste theyr vowe at theyr bakke, and fall to fleshe and wedde. And therfore good crysten reders, syth holy scrypture hath warned of suche techers as Tyndale is, ys techeth suche bestely weddyng wyth contempt of theyr holy vowys made before to god/ and syth that all holy men that haue wryten vppon scrypture haue gyuen vs warnyng that it is playnly prohybyted, as well by the trew sense of scrypture as by the playne open wordes/ and all good honest people of crystendome thys.xv. hundreth yere haue had such bestely wed- dyng in grete abomynacyon/ and now ye se that all the captaynes of these pestylent heresyes whiche Tyndale now techeth you, haue gyuen you warnynge them selfe by theyr owne dedes in theyr named wedlocke theyr very synfull lechery, that they them selfe be suche as all this .xv. C. yere hefore, the scrypture hath reproued and all the worlde hath wondred on/ and syth ye se Tyndale now teche and allowe theyr lechery and auowe it solempnely for good and lau- full matrymony: I nothynge fere your iudgement in this mater. For I make me bolde in our lorde, that ye be so wyse in the wisedome of god and so fastened in his fayth, that when ye here an hyghe holy worde come out of suche a mouth as prayseth munkes maryages and mokketh Crystes sacramentes, and then precheth lyke a player in a fonde enterlude/ & playeth somtyme the frere, sometyme the fox, sometyme the fole, and somtyme the oute ryght rybawde: ye wyll not be so vnwyse to wene that he were an holy man and therfore herken to hym/ but take hym such as ye se he is, and let the deuyls dysour go. Delyte not in his deuelyshe doctryne, ys ye se your selfe is nought, what so euer he set therewyth to make yt seme solemne: but cleue ye fast to ye fayth of Criste which Tyndale goth aboute to destroy/ and byleue the olde fathers ys ye se be sayntes in heuen. For as Tyndales interpretacyon of scrypture and the vices byelded theruppon, is [miv] the very brode waye to lede men to hell: so is those holy sayntes exposycyons with the vertues that they taught and shewed, the very strayt path that ledeth folke to heuen. In whyche our lord for his paynfull passyon gyue vs all grace so to walke/ ys we come to gether to ys place, where we may fynde our charyte not chaunged but increaced & perfayted, our hope turned in to hauynge and possessyon of blesse, and our fayth conuerted & chaunged in to clere and lyght- som knolege/ of whych fayth Tyndale so preacheth vs the name, that Thus endeth the fyrste boke. [mi] The Seconde boke Whych Confuteth the defence of Tyn- dale for his translacyon of the new testament. An answere vnto the fyrst Chapyter of Tyndales boke, why he translateth this worde Chyrche in to this worde Congregacyon. In the begynnynge of my dialoge I shewed that Tyndales translacyon of the new testament was well worthy to be burned/ bycause it well shewed in yt selfe ys he had of an euyll mynde translated yt in such manner of wyse, as yt myght serue hym for a pryncypall instrument, towarde the settynge forth of all such heresyes as he had lerned of Luther, and entended to sende ouer hyther and sprede a brode wythin this realme/ the trouth of whych my sayeng Tyndale and his felowes haue in such open fasshyon testyfyed and declared them selfe, that I nede for my selfe, in that poynte to vse no farther defence. For euery man well seeth that there was neuer englyshe boke of heresye sent hyther synnys (as there hath ben many, some party- cularly agaynst the blessed sacrament of the auter, as was the deuelyshe dialoge of the father and ys sonne, and the blasphemouse boke of the beryeng of ye masse, wherof our lorde be thanked the maker is gracyously tourned agayne to god/ and some were agaynste purgatory, & some agaynst almost all to gether that good is in Cristes chyrch/ as are the bokes of Tyndale hym selfe, his wykked mam- mona, his obedyence, and dyuerse other) in all these euer more one pece of theyr complaynte hathe ben the burnynge of Tyndales testament. For surely fyrst his false translacyon wyth theyr farther false construccion/ they thought sholde be the basse and the tenour wheruppon they wold synge the trouble wyth mych false descant. And therfore vcry hote they take yt, that the goodnesse of the kynges grace wyth the lordes of his honorable counsayle and the clergye of the realme, haue burned vp theyr false prykked bookes. [miv] So was yt now that amonge other tokens of Tyndales euyll entent in his translacyon/ I shewed as for ensample yt he chaunged comenly this worde chyrche in to this worde congregacyon, and this worde preste, into this worde senyour, and cheryte in to loue, and grace in to fauour, confessyon in to knowledge, and pen- aunce in to repentaunce/ with many wordes mo whych he chaungeth and vseth dayly, as in turnynge idoles in to ymages, and anoyntyng in to smerynge, consecratynge in to charmyng, sacramentes in to ceremonyes, and the ceremonyes in to wychecrafte, and yet many mo. Now shewed I there the causes why Tyndale dyd euyll in trans- latynge the scrypture in to our tonge wyth suche maner chaunges/ and shewed also the thynges that myghte well make euery man pen- ceyue that he ment therein the settyng forth of som heresies, as appereth in my sayd dialoge. Whych thynges yf I sholde here agayne reherse and repete, and in lyke wyse all other thynges agaynst which Tyndale doth obiecte: it were to longe a wurke, and as mych as to plante and set in to thys boke myne hole dyaloge agayne. Wherfore in all suche thynges I muste nedys remytte the reader vnto the dyaloge selfe. Now cometh Tyndale and for answere therof, and to dysproue all that I laye agaynst hym in the translatynge of dyuers of these wordes:. sheweth that the latyn texte and the greke maye be hys excuse and defence/ for as mych as ye wordes in ye laten texte & the greke, do as he sayth sygnyfye suche thynges as he hath expressed in hys englysshe translacyon, by those englysshe wordes that I fynd the faute in. But fyrst to what purpose serueth all hys defence? when he hath synnys hym selfe, proued by hys owne other bookes, that he is an heretyke/ and that hys heresyes be suche, as it muste nedys make it clere, that though a nother man translatynge the testament and beynge good & faythfull, myghte haue vsed happely those chaunges amonge, wyth. out euyll meanyng or any suspicyon therof: yet he syth those chaunges so serued for hys heresyes, muste nedys be, not suspected, but many- festley detected and perceyued to haue vsed them beynge suche so many and so often, not of any chaunce or good intent, but of very playne purpose to gyue hys heresyes in the earys of vnlerned men, some coloure of profe in the texte of the new testament. And so myghte I now passe [ni] ouer.vi. or.vii. of ys fyrst chapyters of his booke, as thynges that serue hym of ryght noughte. But yet to the entent ye maye the better perceyue how wysely the man defendeth the mater, in suche wyse as he sheweth bothe lakke of lernyng, and more lakke of wytte, & moste lakke of grace: he doeth at the last confesse hym selfe that he made the chaunges for the settynge forth of hys heresyes/ whyche was the poynt that I layed to hys charge, as the very thynge for whyche hys translacyon was very well worthy to be burned. Now let vs fyrst consyder how he defendeth hys chaunge of thys worde chyrche in to thys worde congregacyon. Fyrste to enduce the mater as though he went aboute to make euery thynge very open and playne: he telleth vs a longe tale of lytell weyghte, that thys worde chyrche hath dyuers sygnyfycacyons. And then he maketh as though he wolde telle how many/ wherin when he hath all done, he leueth out one of the very chyefe. For he telleth vs ys a chyrch sygnifyeth a place or a howse where crysten men were wont to resorte in olde tyme to here the word of god/ and he sayth not to praye but to lerne how and what to pray. Then he sayth it hath a seconde sygnyfycacyon, but that is he sayth but mysse taken and abused by whyche it sygnyfyeth the clergye/ whom it pleaseth to hym in hys raylynge maner to call a multytude of shauen, shorne, and oyled/ in mokkage and reprefe not so mych of the prestes, as of the holy order of presthode. A thyrde sygnyfycacyon he sayth it hath/ by whych it betokeneth congregacyon, a multytude, or a company gathered to gyther in one, as a man may call the chyrche of London/ meanyng not the spyrytualtye onely but the hole body of the cytye of all kyndes, con- dycyons, and degrees. And in thys thyrde sygnyfycacyon he sayth that though it be lytell knowen amonge the comon people now a dayes: yet this sygnyfycacyon is he sayth the chyrch of god or hole multytude that receyue ys name of Cryste to byleue in hym. And for ys profe of this he layeth many places of saynt Paule. Fynally yet he remembreth hym selfe at laste, and addeth vnto this as it were a note & sayth. Tyndale. Not wythstandynge yei yt is some tyme taken generally, for all that embrace the name of Criste though theyr fayihes be nought, or though they haue [niv] no fayth at all. And sometymes yt is taken specyally for the electeonely/ in whose hartes and hath wryien his law wyth his holy spyryte, and geuen them a felynge fayth of the mercy that in Cryste Iesu our lorde. More. Lo now ye haue herd how many maner of wise Tyndale teacheth vs that this word chyrch is taken. In whych yet he hath lefte oute one sygnyfycacyone or twayne yt this worde playnely sygnyfyeth. One is that this worde chyrch besyde all the sygnyfycacyons that Tyndal hath here shewed vs: doth sygnifye that parte of the chyrch that is synodis & counsayles do represent the whole chyrch. As when we saye that there is a law made by the chyrch that heretikes shall not be sufferd to preach/ lyke wise as a parliament representeth ys hole reame, & is by the comen speche so called to/ as when we say yt th realme hath made a law that heretikes shalbe burned. The chyrch also sygnifyeth sometynle a mych lesse nomber that is to wyt/ the onely rulers or hedes of the chyrche. as where we be commaunded to complayne to the chyrch/ yt is not ment to all ys whole towne nor to all the clergy therof, but to rulers and gouernours. Syth Tyndale hat taken vppon hym to shew vs here his hygh doctryne, how man manner of wyse this worde chyrch is taken: yt bylonged rather vnt hym to haue taken in these sygnifycacions, then some of them that he hath taken as ye shall se anon. But fyrst I meruaile me mych that Tyndall hath eyther clene lefte out or ellys put in so darkely, yt he wold not haue yt perceyued tha sygnyfycacyon of this worde chyrch, that is one of the pryncypal sygnyfycacyons therof, and wherupon the greteste wayght of all our mater dependeth. And ys is that sygnifycacyon, by whyche the chyrch sygnyfyeth not as Tyndale taketh yt in his thyrde sygnyfy- cacyon, for all a multitude gathered to gether in one, of all kyndes, condycyons, and degrees of people/ but of such onely people as be crysten people, and them not in one cytye onely, but that hole nomber of euery cytye, towne, and village thorow out all the hole world: this sygnifycacyon Tyndale leueth out clene, bycause yt toucheth moste the mater. For as for that he saith in his fore remembred note: he semeth but to set a specifycacyon of his thyrde sygnifycacion, as though he wolde meane yt for ys hole nomber of cyteseyns, or ellys for the onely nomber of the electys wyth in some one cytye, as he there putteth London for his example. And yf [ni] he wold there name in his note the hole catholyque chyrch: I meruyle why he sayth that yt is called so sometyme / as though that sygnifycacyon were very rare and selde, where as of trouth there is of the chyrch no sygnifycacyon neyther more great nor more comen, then that by whych yt is ment and taken for the catholyque chyrch and vnyuersall. How be yt of trouth Tyndale handeleth his thyrde sygnyfycacyon very secundely and fareth as one that wolde fayne walke darke. For the places of scrypture seme to speke of onely crysten people in this place and that. But his descrypcyon of ys chyrch in that sygnifycacyon goeth far otherwyse. For when he sayth that yt sygni- fyeth not onely the clergye but the hole congregacyon, multitude, or company gathered in to one / as a man wold saye the chyrch of London, meanynge not the spyrytualty onely but the hole body of the cytye, and all that parteyne vnto the towne generally of all kyndes, condycyons, and degrees: of this sygnyfycacyon surely few folke haue herd. For though he name a crysten cytye for a sample: yet may there be some cytyes and haue bene, and yet be some such in some other places/ that of the cyteseyns and of the hole bodye of the cytye, and of such as pertayne vnto the towne generally/ not onely be there crysten prestes and crysten laye people / but open caste oute heretykes also, ye and peraduenture Iewes, Turkes, and Sara- cens to, that be not crystened at all. And in some cytyes few crysten people and the remanaunt infydeles/ and suche were the cytyes to whome the apostle wrote. And then I am sure when saynt Paule spake of ys chyrch of the Corynthyes or of the Ephesyans: he ment not in thys Tyndales thyrde sygnyfycacyon after his descrypcyon, all the hole bodye of the cytye, and all such as perteyned therto gener- ally/ but the crysten people onely. Nor now also yf Tyndale wolde speke of the chyrche of London, where all the hole towne is crysten people: there wolde no man vnderstande therby the hole body of the cyte, but the clergye onely/ nor no man Tyndale excepte in spekynge wolde so meane. But this darkenes vseth Tyndale / bycause he wolde haue it seme ys thys worde chyrche, which in the englysshe tonge hath euer had a good sygnyfycacyon & an holy in mennys hertes: sholde seme to haue somtyme the contrary. Out of whyche darkenes I shall drawe Tyn- dale anone I truste/ and accordynge to my poetry wherin [niv] he mokketh me, pull vp cerberouse in to the lyght. But now let vs fyrste consyder a lytell hys fyrst sygnyfycacyon, where he sayth,<2yt sygnyfyeth a Place wherunto crysten People were wonte in the olde>2 <2tyme to resort at tymes conuenyent, for to here the worte of doctryne, the lawe>2 <2 of god, and the fayth of our sauyour Cryste, and how and what to Pray, and>2 <2 whense to aske Power and strength to lyue godly.>2 Why sayth Tyndale here in the olde tyme/ for all this we do in the new tyme to, how so euer Tyndale lyste to lye. Then goeth he ferther and lyeth on lustely, sayenge that of Crystes promyses nor of hys mercye we knowe no thyng at all/ as though no man had here herd euer any thyng spoken, that mankynde is redemed by Crystes passyon, & that he hath ordayned his holy sacramentes, and promysed men grace that wyth fayth and deuocyon receyue them. Is not thys man shameles so boldely to bere vs all in hande, that we neuer here worde of suche thynges as euery boy better byleueth then he? For euery chylde that is of competent age / hath herde ys god gyueth by hys holy ordynaunce (whych euer includeth hys promyse) grace wyth all his.vii. sacramentes / where as Tyndale of seuen taketh it away fro fyue, and from almost one and an halfe of the tother twayne to. Euery boy byleueth, and byleueth trew/ that god hath promysed rewarde to good workes. And Tyndale wyll not byleue ys promyse at all/ but denyeth it playnely, as playnly as god sayth it hym self in many places of the very gospell. But then on the tother syde Tyndale telleth vs, that god hath promysed alwaye to euery man the blysse of heuen for onely fayth alone. And here euery boy byleueth and woteth well he lyeth. Now towchynge the mercy of our lorde/ who can speke of Crystes passyon and speke nothyng of hys mercy? This man is to madde to talke wyth. Goddys mercy is so greate that no man can speke inoughe thereof But the worlde waxeth such now a dayes/ yt as it is nede to pray for mercy, so were it nede to preche of goddys iustyce, & put the people in mynde of hys wrathe and indygnacyon lykely to fall vppon vs, yf we gyue eare to suche dedely doctryne as Tyndale techeth/ and I pray god of hys greate mercy to gyue that man a better mynde. Yet goeth he ferther and sayth, <2that of the lawe of god we thynke as >2 <2dgoyd the Turkes and the olde Hethen PeoPle/ that it is a thynge whyche>2 [ni] <2euery man may do of our owne Power.>2 What careth Tyndale what he saye/ that careth not to wryte thys, wherein euery mannes earys that wolde hym well, glowe for very shame that here hym. Where herde he euer any man saye, that any man may fulfyll the law of god of hys owne power? Mary thys we saye and saye trowth, ys man hath suche power gyuen of god that he maye worke wyth goddes grace in the kepynge of the law. But this can not Tyn- dale bere / for theyr heresye is, that man towarde ye kepyng of goddys precepte, hath no fre wyll at all/ and now dyssymylynge hys owne heresye he dedely byleyth vs. Now of prayour he sayth, <2we thynke that no man maye Praye but at>2 <2chyrche/ and that it is nothynge ellys but to saye a Pater noster to a Post/ and>2 <2that the obseruaunces and ceremonyes of the chyrche are vayne thynges of our >2 <2owne ymagynacyon, neyther nedefull to the tamynge of theflesshe, nor Profytable>2 <2to our neyghbour, neyther honour vnto god.>2 Those lyes come in by lumpes lo. I dare saye he neuer herde in hys lyfe man nor woman saye, that no man maye praye but at chyrche. As trew is it also that men saye theyr pater noster to the poste/ by whych name it pleaseth hym of hys reuerent crysten mynde to call the ymages of holy sayntes and oure blyssed lady, and the fygure of Crystes crosse, the booke of hys bytter passyon. Though we reuerence these in honour of the thynges whyche they represent/ and in the remembrauns of Cryste do crepe to the crosse and kysse it and say a pater noster at it: yet saye we not the pater noster to it but to god/ and that woteth Tyndale full well, but that he lysteth to rayle. As for that he sayeth of the seruyce, ceremonyes, and obseruaunces of the chyrche, whych he calleth here vayne ymagynacyons, how- lynge, buzsynge, and cryenge out lyke halowynges of the foxes or baytynge of berys, & thus he sayth it is now/ but of olde tyme he sayth yt the officers appoynted there vnto, preched the pure word of god onely, and prayed in a tonge that euery man vnderstode. As for prechynge of the pure word of god: I muste wyt of Tyndale whyther he meane the worde wryten or vnwryten or bothe. If he say they preched the worde of god bothe wryten and vnwryten and onely that: then I saye so do we now to. Peraduenture he wyll say that the precheours now lay thereto the olde holy doctours: I saye that therein they [niv] lay but goddes worde/ for they laye them for the better vnderstandynge of goddes worde wryten, and for the better know- lege of goddes worde vnwryten. For we be very sure that yt is his worde when we se that all the holy doctours that spent theyr lyfe in the studye of his worde, and in the kepynge of-his worde, and the prechynge ofhis worde: do testyfye from age to age by theyr holy wrytynge, that those wordes vnwryten which ys chyrch beleueth, were and be his wordes, as well and as veryly as those that be wryten in any parte of scrypture. Then yf Tyndale wyll say that our preacheours preche Aristotle, philosophers, and poetes: thereto I say that they sometyme speke of philosophers in thynges of nature or of morall vertues. And yf this new apostle now saynte Tyndale take this thyng for so great an heyghnouse cryme: then is he surely mych more apostolycall then was Crystes olde apostle Poule. For he letted not in his epystle to the Romanes to alledge and alowe the philosophers connyng, though he dysproued and dyspraysed ys foly of theyr fall & wrechednes of theyr lyuynge. And in his epistle to Titus he toke yt for no synne to alledge the poetes versys/ but in ys disprayse of them of Crete for vsyng of Tyndales fasshyon in lyenge, and also in geuynge the worlde warnyng to be- ware of such as Tyndale is / whose euyll wordes and sermons do corrupte and marre mennys good maners as his doth, where he wolde make menne wene that good maners were nothynge worth. And thus yf Tyndale graunt the tone parte/ that is to say that of olde tyme they preched both the worde of god wryten and vnwryten: then he wynneth nothynge/ for euen so do they in the new tyme to. Now yf he wyll not saye they preched both of olde tyme/ but that of olde tyme they preched onely the tone, that is to wyt the worde of god wryten: then must we wytte of Tyndale whych he callrth the olde tyme. For this I wote well & so dothe Tyndale to, that fyrste of all, Cryste our sauyour hym selfe preched more then his worde wryten, and promysed also wythoute wrytynge, and was byleued then wythout wrytynge, that he wolde sende the holy goost that shold teache his chyrch all trewth wyth- out wrytyng/ & Cryst full trewly fulfylled his promyse without wryting/ and yet wifl not Tyndale now byleue hym wythout wrytynge / and after Cristes deth dyd his apostles preache mych more of god[ni]des worde then was writen. And ther- fore yf Tyndale grownd hys argument vppon the olde tyme, and say that they preched onely goddes worde wryten: I haue dreuen hym onwarde one steppc downe/ for I haue shewed hym here the oldest tyme and the best tyme of Crystendome, in whyche he can neuer wreste out but that he shall confesse that all ys crysten prechours, that is to wyt all the euangelystes and all the apostles of Cryste, and Cryste hym selfe also/ besyde the scrypture preched goddes word vnwryten as longe as euer they lyued. For I truste that Tyndale as madde as he is, is not yet so madde/ as to thynke that after that some of the apostles had wryten eyther gospels or pystles, that then they alleged theyr owne wrytynges for theyr authoryte or theyr owne felowes eyther/ as though theyr owne wordes & theyr owne wrytynge were not all of one credence. But now yf Tyndale be not content to stande to ys olde tyme/ and wyll saye that he spake of olde tyme but not of so olde: then syth he compareth the olde tyme wyth thys tyme that is now, we must aske hym whyche tyme is that whych he taketh for ys olde tyme in respecte of this newe tyme now. We call an olde man ye wote well at four- score yere, and at an hundred yere very olde. Wyll Tyndale stande to ys tyme? wyll he stande at two hundred, iii. hundred, iiii, v, vi, vii, viii? Nay surely he wyll none of all those hundredes. For he sayth in hys preface that all thys eyghte hundred yere and aboue/ the prechours haue ben false, and haue falsyfyed the scrypture. Now semeth me that eyghte hundred yere is in respect of now a metely old tyme. And syth he sayth ys by all this old tyme they haue not preched goddys worde well: I wolde knowe whyche is that olde tyme in whyche they preched goddys worde well, and the worde onely wryten, wythout any prechynge of any worde of god vnwryten, and toke for vayne and false all that euer were called goddys worde, but yf they founde it wryten. Let Tyndale now tell vs that olde tyme. For this must he tell vs or els he taketh a fowle fall. Now wyll he make many shyftes/ and at the last he shall be fayne to fall bothe in to hys owne poetry, and also in to hys grammer agayne/ and come forth wyth hys.iii. degrees of comparyson, olde, elder, and eldest. And syth neyther the eldest tyme of Cryst and hys apostels maye serue hym, bycause they preche besyde scrypture the worde of god vnwryten/ nor the olde tyme of eyghte hundred yeres nowe laste [niv] passed, bycause they preched as Tyndale sayth dyuerse sacramentes, ceremonyes, and promyses as the wordes of god vnwryten in whych he sayth they preched false/ but he wyll take an elder tyme then thys, and not so olde as that, that is to wyt the tyme next after the apostels dayes/ and he wyll say that all the wordes of god were then all redy wryten by the euangelystes and the apostels/ so that there was none of goddys wordes lefte vnwryten/ and therfore after theyr dayes by a certeyne tyme the trewe prechers preched purely the bare worde of god wryten in holy scrypture: well nowe be Tindale and I comen at last to some poynt. For he sayth a thynge here, wyth whiche he answereth me well, and with good grammer sauynge for his poetry, for that marreth all hys mater. For I save surely that he sayth not trouth/ but that of goddes wordes they wrote not all/ but dyuers thynges were by god to them and by them to other taughte by mouth, and by tradycyon from hande to hande delyuered, and from age to age hytherto contynued in Crystes chyrch. And that I saye trewth in thys poynt/ I haue dyuers good and honest wytnesses to bryng forth when tyme requyreth/ saynt Austayne, saynt Hyerom, saynt Cypryan, saynt Chrysostem, and a greate many mo/ whyche haue also testefyed for my parte in thys mater more then a thousand yere a go. Yet haue I a nother auncyent sad father also/ one that they call Origene. And when I desyred hym to take the payne to come and bere wytnesse wyth me in thys mater, he semed at the fyrst very well content. But when I tolde hym that he sholde mete with Tindale: he blessed hym selfe & shranke bakke, and sayde he had leuer go some other waye many a myle then onys medle wyth hym. For I shall tell you syr quod he/ before thys tyme a ryght honorable man very connyng and yet more vertuouse, the good bysshoppe of Rochester, in a great audyence brought me in for a wytncs agaynst Luther and Tyndale euyn in thys same mater, aboute the tyme of the burnynge of Tyndalys euyll translated testament. But Tyndale as sone as he herde of my name/ without any respecte of honestye fell in a rage wyth me and all to rated me, and called me starke heretyke, and that the starkeste that euer was. Thys tale Orygene tolde me & swore by saynt Symkyn that he was neuer so sayed vnto of suchea lewde felowe synnys he was fyrste borne of hys mother/ and therfore he wolde neuer medle wyth Tyndale more. [oi] Now in dede to say the treuth yt was not well done of Tyndale to leue resonynge and fall a scoldyng, chydynge, and brawlynge, as yt were a bawdy begger of byllyter lane. Fy for shame he sholde haue fauored & forborne hym somwhat, and yt had bene but for his age. Origene is now.xiii. hundred yere olde or there aboute/ and not mych aboue.vii. yere synnes. Now yf this made Tyndale bold to set Origene as short as his olde shone, bycause saynt Hierome founde some fautes in his workes: he muste remember agayne that many a good man, and among those saynte Pamphilus the blessed martyr/ founde in Origenes doctrine so mych erudycyon, deuocyon, & vertue, bysyde that they veryly thought those errours none of his/ nor neuer were there any such fautes founden in his wrytynge whyle hym self lyued, nor no man offended with hym, & many places in his bokes playne yt seme to saye ys contrary. And therfore many good men thought and yet thynke, all be yt saynt Hierome thought otherwyse (as he myght well inow whyle that poynte no thynge perteyneth to the fayth) that those heresyes were put in to hys bokes after his deth by some that were heretyques in dede/ and wolde for the great estymacyon that Origene was in thorough all the chyrch, auaunce theyr owne heresyes forwarde vnder the name and standard of his famouse authoryte. But graunted nowe that those fautes were his whyche were imputed vnto hym, yet is this none of them. But saynte Hierome that so narowly dyd examyne his workes, and so strayghtely marked and condemned his errours: dyd reken this for none, but dyd in this mater lyke & alow hym well/ and as he hath in many other thvnges approued hym, and by his commendacyon caused of his workes dyuerse to be reuerently redde in the diuine seruyce of ys chyrch: so in this mater he hath well declared ys he well approued hym, bothe by this that he hath not noted yt amonge such as he founde fauty hym selfe/ and also in that yt otherwyse appereth in saynt Hieroms workes that he was of the same mynde hym selfe. And therfore I dowte not but that he shall be for all Tyndales scoldyng, accepted and taken afore all good and indyfferent iudges for a ryght sub stauncyall wytnesse/ yf I can entreat hym to bere and abyde the brabelynge of Tyndales tonge, as I trust yet to entreat hym here- after And then [oiv] wyll I brynge in with hym some other that I haue named/ and yet other mo bysyde, that shall as I sayd testyfye with me before this boke be done/ ys god hath taught his chyrche many thynges wherof in the scrypture his worde is yet vnwryten. But now wyll I for ys meane while touchyng this poynt wheruppon ye great wayghte of all the mater hangeth, go nerer vnto Tyndale a nother waye. It is ye wote well agreed bytwene vs/ or yf he wold be so madde to say naye, ye wyll yet your selfe agre this in his stede: that ones of olde tyme Cryste hym selfe and his apostles dyd teache and preache many wordes of god vnwryten. Now thus I say, syth many thynges were tought fyrst vnwryten yf any of thcm be yet lefte vnwryten/ then saye I that Tyndale is at the leste wyse temerariouse & ouer bolde, so certaynely to affyrme that any sacrament that the chyrch vseth and so longe hath vsed, or ceremony eyther, is idolatrye/ for as mych as if we lakked sure profe vppon our syde (whyche in dede we lakke not by reason of goddes spyryte by Crystes owne promyse euer abydynge wyth his chyrch it all trewth/ but yf we lakke I say that profe for our parte) yet were he to presumptuousely bolde so pre- cysely to affyrme the contrary/ syth he can not say naye but that they myght be some of those ys were sometyme toughte vnwryten, and yet remayne obserued vnwryten/ as ys other that now be wryten were tought & kept wythout wrytynge before. To this wyll Tyndall answere, that synnys that tyme all goddes wordes, promyses, & sacramentes that he wold haue kepte and byleued in crystendome: he hath caused to be wryten, by his euan- gehstes and apostles/ and lefte none vnwryten, to thentent that his chyrch shall not stande in any dowte nor fall into any errour of any necessary poynt for lakke of wrytynge/ but maye know by that he hath caused all to be wryten, that all be false and fayned, and mennys madde inuencyons that they byleue and obserue vnwryten. For why sholde he cause some to be wryten and suffcr some lefte vnwryten/ to make men sure of some, and to leue some in dowte? In thys tale Tyndale telleth vs two thynges. One that god hath thus done in dede/ a nother the cause why. If he proue that in dede god hath so done: I neuer care for the [oi] cause/ for h well inough, and therfore I wyll gyue no rekenynge why god hath caused some to be wryten and some to be lefte vnwryten. But thys wyll I be bolde to saye/ that he was not of any necessyte compelled to wryte any one sacrament or ceremony or weyghty poynt of byleue, for any fere leste it sholde fall awaye/ and that he coude not wyth hys owne spyryte kepe it in mennys hertes and vsage wythout wrytynge, as well as he kept in the good generacyons the knowledge of his promyses and his lawes longe and many ages before the lawe was wryten/ and yet wrote them not all therin neyther, but the people had a fayth of Cryste amonge them more large then was wryten in theyr lawe / whyche went from hande to hande I thynke from Adams dayes, to whom it is lykely that god made after his fall some larger promyse and reuelacyon of hys redempcyon agayne, than we fynde made vnto hym wryten in any place of scrypture. But we shall not nede mych profe for thys matcr/ for that god was able to kepe all hys sacramentes and artycles of the fayth wythout wrytynge, Tyndale I wene wyll not deny me. Now to say that yf he sholde haue lefte some vnwryten, it wolde haue made dowtes and debates and be occasyons of errours and heresyes/ and the writyng doth put all thynges oute of dowte, and therfore god hath lefte none vnwryten: we se that thys maketh neyther more sure nor lesse. For as well dyd men byleue before the wrytyng those thynges that are now wryten, as euer they dyd synnys/ and we beleue now the promyses as well that are vnwryten as any that are wryten. And the wrytynge taketh not away all the dowtes/ but as many ryse thereuppon, and many mo then vppon those thynges that we byleue vnwryten. For fyrste the credence to be gyuen to the hole boke in whyche they be wryten/ hangeth all vppon the same fayth vppon whyche dependen the thynges that are vnwryten. For as I byleue the tone so byleue I the tother. And as one maye by hys owne frowardnes lakke the grace to byleue ys thynges vnwryten: so maye a iiother by his owne malyce lakke the grace to byleue any parte of the hole boke of holy scrypture that is wryten/ and take it all for fantasyes. And in good fayth I am aferd yt so do they whych saye they byleue nothynge els but it. For as for parte of ys boke they brynge in questyon/ as the boke of the Machabees, by cause it ma[oiv]keth agaynst theyr pur- pose concernyng purgatory. And parte they let not mych to deny/ as Luther doeth the epystle of saynte Iamys, bycause it speketh playnely agaynst hys idle workelesse fayth. Now in that partes whyche they graunte for scrypture: yet taketh it not awaye all the dowtes. But vnto such folke as Tyndale is and Luther, that be so contencyouse: it mynystreth rather mych mater of dowte and of debate, & that mych more then do the thynges that are obserued wythout wrytynge. For fyrst they refuse to obserue them, bycause they saye they fynde them not there wryten/ & so ryseth that questyon fyrst vppon the wrytynge. Then yf it be founden there: then dyspute they whyther it be fully founden there/ as whyther we fynde there bothe ys token and the thynge betokened. For the sacrament take they but for a bare sygne/ and the thynge that is sygnyfyed they call no thynge but Crystes onely promyse. And here make they vppon the wrytynge many greate batayles, to bete downe allmoste all the sacramentes, sauyng scant one and an halfe. Then vppon the letter rayse they man reate errours, and saye the scripture is playne vppon t say not onely Luther, Tyndale, and Swynglius with frerc Huskyn and hys felowes, agaynst the interpretacyon of all holy doctours and sayntes, and the comen fayth of all trewe crysten people.xv. hundred yere before them: but eche of them selfe also agaynst other amonge them selfe saye and swere that the scrypture is playne for theyr parte. So that as for necessyte of wrytynge all or any parte concernynge the sacramentes, ceremonyes, or artycles of the fayth, god was not dreuen thereto/ nor by the wrytynge be taken awaye the dowtes. But as I wote it well yt god had good and greate causes why he caused some thynges to be wryten: so had he causes as good why he lefte some vnwryten. But neyther can Tyndale tell why he sholde wryte all, nor I gyue the rekenynge why he lefte some vnwryten. To thys wyll Tyndale happely say (for ellys can not I se what he can say) that god hath causyd all his wordes spoken to his chyrche to be wryten in holy scrypture/ and hath in the same scrypture gyuen vs playne warnynge that he so hath done / and thereby hath he delyuered vs from dyuerse dowtes though not from all. For all be it ys dyuerse dowtes [oi] yet ryse vppon the writtynge: we, by his ex- presse warnyng in wrytynge shewynge that all is wryten/ be put oute of all dowte, that we shall byleue nothynge as his worde wherof there is no wrytynge. Surely yf Tyndale tell mc this tale as in dede he doth/ for both Luther and he and frere Huskyn and Swynglius, and all the rable of that rascayle/ neuer ceace to saye thys/ and they fynde folys that byleue them better vppon theyre bare wordes, then they wolde more honeste men vppon theyr obligacyons/ but now as I say yf Tyndale tell me this tale: I shall by his leue be bolde to denye yt hym/ and pray hym onys to proue yt yf he can fynde how. For this I wote well, they haue amonge them made great boste a great whyle/ & alwaye promysed that they wyll byeld vppe that towre/ and make yt very strong and sure/ and surely so haue they great nede to do, for therein lyeth all the store of all theyr gunne powder, brymstone, pytch, & wyld fyre, that they shote out at the blessed sacramentes of our sauyour Cryste. And as for hytherto, brought they neuer yet so mych good stuffe, as wolde make a tyle pynne to fence theyr fortresse wythall. And what so euer they bryng herafter: they shall make pore paper walles. But to thentent that they shall not bygyle you: lette vs wyth one worde or twoo put them in remembraunce what thynges they be that they muste nedes proue, and that by playne scripture to/ for other profe them selfe wyll none admytte. Tyndale muste proue me fyrst therfore by playne & euydent scrypture, that all the wordes necessarye to remayne & be knowen, whych our sauyour hym selfe and his apostles tought ones withoute wrytynge: all those he hath caused to be by them and his euangelistes wryten, preserued, and kepte, in playne and euident scripture. When Tyndale hath proued this, for whych I dare geue hym respyte tyll domes daye: then muste he yet by playne and euydent scrypture profe me farther lo/ & for the profe therof though the poyntes be but easy, let hym take yet his tyme fyftene dayes after, wythin whyche he muste I saye by playne and euydent scripture profe me farther yet of these two thynges one/ that is to wyt eyther that euery necessary worde whych god hath spoken by hym selfe and his holy spyryte vnto his chyrche, synnys the deth of his.iiii. euangelystes and his.xii. apost[oiv]les/ he hathe caused to be also secretly sette in and wryten to these bokes whych Tyndale agreeth for holy scrypture/ or ellys muste he profe me by playne and euydent scripture, that not wythstandynge his promyse made vnto his chyrch in his apostles dayes, that he wolde wyth his holy spyryte speke to his chyrch hym self and dwell therwyth and teache yt all trewth from tyme to tyme all dayes euen to the day of dome: yet as sone as he saw his apostles dede, & no man that herde hym left to bere vs wytnesse what he sayde/ he bygan to go from his worde agayne, & sware that he wold eyther no lenger dwell here wyth his chyrch/ or yf he cam, yt shold be but a geste wyse/ and yet wold he play mumme to, and neyther by hym selfe nor his holy spyryte vouchsaufe to speke any one worde vnto them, that were at the leste wyse aught worthy the wrytynge but some wanton tryfle. Remember nowe good reader that these be the thynges whyche Tyndale hathe to proue. And when he proueth these few thynges/ then beleue hym hardely and so wyll I do to. But surely who so byleue hym wyth any lesse/ vnderstandeth nothynge what the mater meaneth. Now yet ones agayne lette vs consyder Tyndales olde tyme/ in whych he sayth the trew pure preachyng was vsed that is now quyte gone. I wolde aske hym when ended that olde tyme of his/ and when beganne his new. He saythe yt hath bene thus as yt is more then this .viii. hundred yeres/ and me thynketh.viii. hundred is a vey longe nowe. But yet consyder good reader of the trew preachynge was lefte and gone .viii. hundred yere a go and more: then can he not say nay but that the trew fayth went quyte away therwith / without whych can be no chyrch of Cryste neyther catholyque nor of electes. And thus doth Tyndale tell vs that this.viii. hundred yere at the laste our lorde harh broke his promyse/ by whyche he prom sed to be with his chyrch all days to ys worldes ende. This man m boste of Crystes promyses/ & wold with them destroye all vertue safe fayth. And now ye se that playnely he denyeth Crystes promyse to/ and wyll I wene at laste denye euen Cryste and all. For as ye se at your eye, he draweth very faste towarde yt. Now tyll Tyndale therfore haue proued vs these few poyntes ys are for theyr falsehed impossyble to be proued: the chyrche shall not nede for his fonde raylynge any thyng to fere, to vse the deuoute sacramentes & ceremonyes taught [oi] and delyuered them by god and his holy spyryte. For spyghte wherof the deuyll and his damned spyrytes crye vppon to haue them lefte of/ and bere vs in hand that they be frutelesse. For Tyndale sayth that they neyther tame the flesshe, nor do good to thy neyghbour, nor be honour to god. But now. doth all good crysten people very well perceyue by yse in the very wryten gospell/ that the chyrche of Crysste ys taught by hys holy spyryte, ys these sacramentes and ceremonyes do please god. And they perceyue and se also that the holy sayntes whyche haue vsed them before our dayes/ be now longe a go rewarded in heuyn wyth god. And they perceyue also that in ys vse therof/ theyr myndes rysen and be lyfte vppe a lofte in deuocyon to god/ and by these thynges and such lyke they perceyue well that Tyndale doeth but bylye them. For syth goddys spyryte hath taught them/ they muste nedys be honour to god. And when men come to- gyther to honour god, eche of them is profytable to other/ for ellys were theyr assembly togyther in prayour no dyfference from ys prayour of one man alone. But when they come togyther to goddys seruyce / the hole company prayeth for the hole pre- sence, and so is eueryche ys better for others praiour/ and all people the better bothe for the prayour and the sacrament, and euery deuowte obseruauns vsed in the chyrche at the dyuyne seruyce. And it is thyrdely very profytable to the very tamynge of the flesshe also. For what thynge is there that better tameth the flesshe then the grace of god. Dyd not god answere saynte Paule when he thryes prayed vnto hym to wythdrawe the prykke of the flesshe, wyth whyche our lord suffered the angell of Sathan to vexe hym, leste hys herte myghte grow to hygh and waxe prowde in beholdynge the maruelouse greatnesse of hys reuelacyons/ whyche though some good men take for some other kynde of trybulacyon, I se not why it myghte not be the very flesshely mocyon agaynste hys vowe of chastyte/ dyd not then our lorde I say make hym answere in thys wyse: Suffyseth vnto the my grace. Now then syth nothynge can better tame the flesshe then the grace of god/ whiche not onely can tame it but also make the rebellyon therof so resysted by the soule, that the fyghte shall turne the man to meryte & rewarde: why shall not then suche obseruaunces as the spyryte of god hath taught vs to serue hym wyth, and whyche obedyently done [oiv] wyth deuocyon and with desyre of grace, do stande in the stede of one of the moste effectuall kyndes of prayour/ be profytable to the tamynge of the flesshe? and eyther cause it the lesse to rebelle / or ellys (whyche is yet happely better) strength the soule in suche wyse agaynst the rebellyon of the flesshe, that by the valyaunt resystynge thereof, it may haue the more gloryouse triumphe of the vyctory. And for experyens (let Tyndale say what it please hym)  good folke fynd thys in dede / that when they be at the dyuyne seruyce in the chyrche, the more deuowtely that they se suche godly ceremonyes ob- serued, & the more solempnite that they se therin/ ys more deuocyon fele they themselfe therwith in theyr owne soulys, and theyr flesshe ys more tame and lesse rebellyouse, and farre the better in temper/ so that all though they were at other tymes and places in ryght greate rage, yet in the chyrche at the voyces of Crystes mynysters in the quere/ wyth organys and all to gether, & beholdyng the solempne godly sacramentes, and ceremonyes in theyr syghte, they fele theyr passyons appeased/ as dyd kynge Saule in hys ragyouse fury at the sowne of Dauyds harpe. Now where he sayth that of olde tyme the offycers appoynted thereto, prayed in a tong that all folke vnderstode/ of whyche poynte Tyndale maketh mych a do, and many tymes he speketh therof, bycause he wolde fayne haue hys false translacyon brought in to the chyrche to be there sayed and songen a goddys halfe: I wyll not saye nay but that in Grece and greate parte of Italy, they bothe sayde in the begynnynge the seruyce of the chyrche in theyr owne tonge. But so dyd they not neyther in Affryke, nor in Almayne, nor in Spayne, nor in Fraunce, nor in Englande, nor as I trowe in any place almoste elles, and yet were they good men that brought the fayth aboute in to all these contrees. And sone after also when the tonges chaunged bothe in Grece and Italy: then lefte they styll the se langage, whyche after the chaunge ye people dyd not vnderstande/ whiche wolde not haue ben by so many good men so longe suffred so, yf ys contrary had ben requyred of necessyte. And saynt Paule in hys stle to the Corynthyes,wherof Tyndale so mych speketh/ dyd but vse the com- modyte of the guyse that then was amonge the Corinthyes, for the confyrmacyon of hys reason agaynste them yt coude but rede and speke and yet wolde smater in preichyng/ [pi] wyllynge the Coryn- thyes to labour fyrste for better vnderstandynge, and not therby meanynge that of necessyte the people muste nedes answere all to gether vnto the blessyng of the preste or the byshoppe. Whych manner hath peraduenture for some thynge that in progresse of tyme they founde abused therin: ben chaunged in to better/ as haue ben dyuerse other thynges and not wythout the secrete workynge of god. And surely yf all the seruyce were in englyshe: yet wold yt not therby be mych the more vnderstanden/ whyche was all the mater that saynt Paule spake. For many that nowe do vnderstande the laten tonge, do lytle yet vnderstande ys sentence, farther then the bare storyes and collettes. But lyke wyse as in some wordes that remayne styll vntranslated in to laten/ men vse them with deuocyon, as amen and alleluia, that neuer knowe more of the sygnyfycacyon then that they be holy wordes; so do there many a good man and good woman bothe saye and here the seruyce of god in the chyrch wyth full great reuerence, and full great deuocyon/ and therfore wyth great thanke of god/ though they haue yt not in theyr owne vulgare tonge/ whych thynge what yt wolde do here god knoweth. But as for Almayne there as yt is so all redy/ we se well inough ys yt dothe no great good there. For where as the people were fallen all redy to many folde heresyes: they now turne all the swete hony that they fynde in the seruyce, quyte in to the poyson that hath taken vppe theyr hertes before. And therfore where as Tyndale sayth that there is nothynge herd in the chyrch amonge vs/ but houlynge, buzsynge, and cryenge out, lyke halowyng of the foxe or baytynge of berys: yt maye well seme so to Tyndale and suche as he is/ but vnto good deuout folke yt semeth farre other wyse. But in theyr chyrch in Almayne, there is a nother manner of howlynge and halowynge & cryenge out. For where as we wyth holy wordes and trew fayth hawle and halowe out the false fox, and bayte out the rugged bere the deuyll: you Tyndale in your chyrches of heretyques, crye oute as lowde as we and lowder to/ for ye crye out men and women and all. But ye with your heresyes halow out all sayntes & bayte out all holy sacramentes, and dreue oute god & all. If Tyndale hadde founden faute wyth any thynge that [piv] is peraduenture mysse vsed in some places/ where happely the fasshyon is more ruffelynge and in lesse moderacyon & sobernesse, then were conuenyent for mouynge men to deuocyon: as euyll as I lyke the man in such thynges as he sayth nought, that is almoste in all/ yet wolde I fynde no faute wyth hym in that he sayed well. But nowe he saythe not that some such thynges be misse orderd somewhere/ but that there is none other. As for songe I se not why he sholde vtterly dysprayse in goddes seruyce/ whyche was a thynge not onely vsed in the olde law but the new to, as well appereth by saynte Paule in his fyrste epystle to the Corinthyes. As for harpes and instrumentes of musyke/ the scrypture sheweth yt openly both in the psalmes and many other places of scrypture / bysyde dawnsynge to, whych is more then men But Tyndale can be pleased wyth no fasshyon neyther cathedrall chyrch, nor paryshe chyrch, nor chapell, nor monkes, nor freres, nor nonnes, neyther Grenewych, Syon, nor charterhouse. If the quere be lowde: then they crye out. If they synge any thynge: yet they halow and bayte. If they do but saye softe: yet they buzse/ so that I se well no fasshyon can please Tyndale but his owne: for as he, neyther cryeth oute, nor haloweth, nor bayteth, nor buzseth in any seruyce sayeng. For as they saye yt know hym: he sayth none at all, neyther matens, euynsonge, nor masse / nor commeth at no chyrche but eyther to gase or talke. But good crysten people whom he belyeth and sayth that they wene no man may pray but at chyrch: they praye both at chyrch and at home/ but yet more gladly at chyrche. For though they know well that in auoydynge of vayne glorye Cryste taught vs to praye in oure chamber: yet shewed he for all that, that the comen chyrche is his house and specyally deputed to prayour. And yt is none hyprocrysye to praye there as yt is to praye in the strete. For when they praye in the chyrche they do but as other folke. But now doth Tyndales congregacyon & the captayns of his heresyes/ make yt as Cryste sayd to the Iewes a very denne of theuys/ and worse then euer dyd the Iewes that bought and solde therein whom Cryste bet oute therfore. For these heretyques now not onely robbe the chyrch in an allegory sence that is to wyt, robbe and stele away the chyef prayours oute of many great chyrches in Almayne: but al[pi]so in the playne lytterall sence robbe oute the relyques and ornamentes of the chyrch to, pollute and myssespende them in prophane vses to fyll theyr belyes and couer theyr pokky scabbed skynnes wythall, mych worse then kynge Balthazare abused the halowed vesselles of the temple, to serue his owne prowde execrable glotony. And when they haue thus robbed ys chyrches: then lodge they for more dyspyghte theyre frerys and theyr nonnes in them/ and of an halowed chyrche they make a stynkyng stewys. And this is yet one sygnifycacyon more that Tyndales mayster hath made a chyrche to sygnyfye scilicet a bordele for brothelys anglice a stewys/ whyche sygnifycacyon also Tyndale hath here lefte out. The secunde chapyter why Tyndale vsed Congregacyon for Chyrche. In the seconde chapyter Tyndale sayth, that he chaunged thys worde chyrche in to thys worde congregacyon in the newe testament where he founde thys worde <2ecclesia>2 in latyn/ bycause that the clergye had he sayth brought the people in to the ignorauns of the trew syg- nyfycacyon of thys worde chyrche, makynge themvnderstande therby no thynge but the clergy. Fyrst this is vndowtely false what so euer Tyndale say. For all be it that men call the clergye by the name of ys chyrche, as the parte ordayned of god to be the more spyrytuall parte therof: yet is there no man I suppose so rude, but yt he knoweth and so hereth the clergy preche also them selfe, that of the chyrche of Cryste is euery crysten man/ and that the hole chyrch is the hole crysten people/ and therfore they call it the catholyke chyrche that is vnyuersall/ by whyche worde neuer man was I wene so madde to meane onely ys prestes, how boldely so euer Tyndale agaynst hys owne conscyence reporte hym selfe to euery other mannes. I wolde also, bycause he reporteth hym so mych to other mennys conscyence, fayne wyt of Tindale by his owne con- scyence, where he hadde euer herd any preste eyther preche or wryte, or so mych as saye the worde/ that onely the clergye is the chyrch and none of the chyrche but they. I suppose them selfe haue [piv] not gyuen them selfe the name. The word is englysshe/ and they teche not euery man hys mother tonge, as men teche chyldren theyr a b c. But the good people haue of olde tyme though they knowe them selfe also for parte of the chyrche: yet bycause the chyrch sygnyfyed an holy name of a crysten com- pany gathered togyder in god, haue therefore of humylyte on theyr owne parte and reuerence towarde them, vsed to call the clergye by that name/ accomptynge them for the more godly parte of that hole godly company. And the spyrytualtye agaynwarde do playnely declare, and euer haue declared in theyr prechynge/ that the name is generall and comune bothe to the temporalte and them/ and at large they declare the dyuerse partes of the chyrche, and therin reken them selfe but for one. And thys name so vsed by the temporaltye of theyr owne humylyte and reuerence towarde the spyrytualtye: is not a thynge new founden, but bygonne of olde / at suche tyme as bothe the partyes were I wene sumwhat better, then I fere me they be bothe now. But now that thynge ys good folke haue of good mynde bygonne, and many hundred yerys contynued/ Tyndale as one ofa nother sorte wolde haue vtterly chaunged/ and rather then ley men sholde haue any suche reuerent mynde to prestys as to call them the chyrch, he wolde take it from them bothe/ and puttynge awaye from bothe that holy name of chyrche, wolde call them both by the name of congre- gacyon, a worde wythoute any sygnyfycacyon of crystendome any more then of Iewys or Turkes. Tyndale. To this answereth Tyndale and sayth, yf this worde congregacyon were a more generall terme then this worde chirche: yt hurteth not, for the circunstaunce doth euer declare what thynge is ment thereby. More. If the settyng of the cyrcumstaunce make all well inough: he nedeth not mych to care what worde he chaungeth nor how. For he maye set suche cyrcumstaunces of his owne deuyce/ that he maye make men perceyue what he meaneth. For so he maye translate the worlde in to a foteball yf he ioyne therwyth certeyne cyrcumstaunces, and saye this rownde rollynge foteball that menne walke vppon & shyppys sayle vppon, in the people whereof there is no reste nor stabylyte, and so forth a greate longe tale/ wyth such cyrcun[pi]- staunces he myght as I say make any worde vnderstanden as yt lyke hym selfe, what so euer the worde byfore sygnyfyed of yt selfe. But surely the worde congregacyon Wyth the circunstaunces in the texte: wolde not haue serued when he translated yt fyrste to make the englyshe reader to take it for the chyrch/ no more then idolys for ymages, or ymages for idoles as he translateth in lykewyse, or repen tynge for doynge penaunce whych he chaungeth to. But mary he hath added vnto his translacion such circunstaunces synnys, that the order of presthed is ryght nought/ but that euery man, woman, and chylde is as very a preste as a preest in dede/ & that euery man & woman may consecrate the body of Criste and say masse as well as any preste, and here confessyon & assoyle as well as maye a preste/ and that there is no dyfference bytwene other folke and prestes, but all one congregacyon and company wythout any difference saue an appoyntement to preache / and also that the comen knowen people of all crysten realmes, clergye, laye people, and all, be not the chyrche nor be no parte of the chyrche, bycause they vse sacramentes and ceremonyes and diuine seruyce in chyrches/ but that the chyrch is a secrete congregacyon of vnknowen chosen here- tikes, scatered abrode in corners, and studyenge to destroye the chyrche. These circumstaunces in dede make men to perceyue and vnder stande, what Tyndale meaneth by thys worde congregacyon put in hys translacyon in the stede of chyrche. And they perceyue clerely by these cyrcumstaunces, that he chaunged that worde of purpose to set forth those heresyes of hys wythall/ as boldely as he now sayth nay. But all his glose is therin that he wyll saye he taketh them for none heresyes. But on the tother syde all good faythfull people do, and therfore they call ys chyrch the chyrch styll, and wyll not agre to chaunge the olde chyrch for his new congregacyon, but burne vppe his bokes that so calleth yt/ & who so wold so begynne to call yt, wold and well myght begynne to call hym heretique, for his delytynge in the inuencyon of heretyques, and his euyll appetyte to speke after an heretyques phrase. Tyndale yet to defende his chaunge of chyrch in to congregacyon, sayth that I do not saye trouth in that I saye that this worde congre- gacyon is a more generall terme then this worde chyrche. [piv] Tyndale. For whereso eue, saythe he that I maye saye a congregacyun/ there I maye say a chyrch also/ as the chyrch of the deuyll, the chyrch of Sathan, the chyrch of wreches, the chyrche of wykked men, the chyrch of lyars, and a chyrch of Turkes thereto. More. This is lustely sayde of Tyndale and lyke a man. But yt pleaseth hym not to consyder that I sayed ys this worde congregacyon is in- dyfferent vnto Turkes and crysten men and vnto all other companyes and a company of cristen men, so that yt as well sygnifyeth a com- panye of Turkes as of crysten men/ and that this worde chyrch doth sygnifye a company of crysten people, and is not indyfferent to a company of Turkes and of crysten men. And I sayed and yet I say, that this is trew of ye vsuall sygnifycacyon of these wordes them selfe in the englyshe tonge, by the comen custume of vs englyshe peple, that eyther now do vse these wordes in our langage, or that haue vsed byfore oure dayes. And I saye that this comen custume and vsage ofspeche is the onely thynge, by whyche we knowe the ryght and proper sygni- fycacyon of any worde/ in so mych that yf a worde were taken oute of laten, french, or spaynishe, & were for lakke of vnderstandynge of the tonge from whense yt cam, vsed for a nother thynge in englyshe then yt was in the formare tonge: then sygnyfyeth it in england none other thyng than as we vse yt and vnderstande therby, what so euer yt sygnifye any where elles. Then saye I now that in England this worde congregacyon dyd neuer sygnyfye the number of crysten people as cristen people, wyth a connotacyon or consyderacyon of theyr or crystendome / no more then this worde assemble, whych hath bene taken out of the frenche, and now is by custume bycommen englyshe/ as congregacyon is out of the latyne. And yet I denye not but vnder those wordes both twayne may be cristen men spoken of For euery assemblye and congregacyon in crysten realmes / is comenly made of crysten people. But they be not there called con- gregacyon or assemble, bycause they be crystened/ but sholde be so called though they were Iewes or Saracens, though they were so knowen and dwelled in crystendome. I say now in lyke wyse that this worde chyrche neuer hath bene vsed to sygnyfye other companye then crystened in comen speche of this realme. And for this cause, and yet most especyally bycause [pi] of Tyndals euyll entent / I sayed and yet saye that he dyd noughte in the chaunge of chyrche for congregacyon, an holy worde for a prophane as farreforth as they both sygnyfye in our englysshe tonge, in to whyche Tyndale made hys translacyon. Thys was and is the thyng that I sayed and say. Now in sayenge thys/ I do not saye vntrew, though Tyndale be at hys lybertye to call a chyrche what hym lyste. For neuer sayed I the contrary, but yt Tyndale where so euer he maye saye a congregacyon there he maye saye a chyrche to. For though none englysshe men be wonte to speke so, nor in the comune spech the worde sygnyfyeth not so, nor of ye chyrche that he sholde in his translacyon haue ment of, no good man wyll saye so: yet may Tyndale saye so, the chyrche of Sathan, the chyrche of wretches, the chyrche of wykked men, the chyrche of lyers, and a chyrche of Turkys to/ and yet & he lyste he maye set to it the chyrche of heretykes, and ys chyrche of deuyls to. But now though Tyndale may thus saye for hys pleasure whyche I deny not: yet can he not saye that thys is the proper sygnyfycacyon of that worde, whyche is the thynge that a translatour must regarde. But it is a certeyne fygure and maner of spekynge, by whyche men vse amonge to expresse a thynge by hys contrary/ as a man myghte say this is the wysdome of a fole/ thys is the trouth of a false shrew/ thys is the fayth of an heretyke. Thus may Tyndale abuse the holy name of chyrche to any lewde thynge that he lyste/ but thys is not the parte of a translatour. But Tyndale now to conuycte me clerely by lernynge & reason dowble confyrmed with scrypture: sheweth hym selfe in few wordes that he bothe lakketh lernynge and reason, & shamefully abuseth the scrypture. These are his wordes. Tyndale. M. More muste nedys graunte (yf he wyll haue ecclesia translated thorow oute all the new testament by this worde chyrche) that chyrch is as comen as ecclesia. Now is ecclesia a greke worde, and was in vse byfore the tyme of the apostles, and taken for a congregacyon amonge the Hethen, where no congregacyon was of god or of Cryste. And also Luke hym selfe vseth ecclesia for a chyrch or congregacyon,f Hethen peop1e, thryes in one chapyter, euen in the actes/ where Demetrius the goldsmyth or sylue, smvth had gathered a company agaynste Paule for preachynge agaynst ymages. [piv] More. Let vs now bygynne at the fyrste pece & ye shall se what he hath/ <2M. More muste nedes graunte that chyrche is as comen as ecclesia, yf he will>2 <2haue this worde ecclesia thorowe oute all the new testament translated by this>2 <2worde chyrche.>2 Fyrst I say that mayster More must not nedys graunte thys to Tyndale neuer a whytte. For yf he turne it from a condycyonall pro- posycyon in to an affyrmatyue anteccdent and consequent: it shall sone be shewed hym that hys consequent were possyble to be false and hys antecedent trewe. For it myghte be that thys worde <2ecclesia>2 dyd sygnyfy mo thynges then the wryters of the new testament had occasyon to speke of wythin ys same. And then though I wolde graunt vnto Tyndale that thys worde <2ecclesia>2 sholde thorowout the new testament be translated by this word chyrch: yet must I not nedys be dreuen to graunte hym for all that, that chyrche were as comen as <2ecclesia,>2 bycause it sholde not yet sygnyfye those other sygnyfycacyons of <2ecclesia>2 that were not spoken of wythin the newe testament. And thus where Tyndale wolde vppon suche an antecedent bynde me by and by of necessyte to hys consequent: it appereth that though I graunted hym the tone/ I must not nedys for all hys great worde graunte hym the tother at all. But now though I must not nedys yet wyll I graunte hym of cour- tesye/ that yf I wyll haue <2ecclesia>2 translated thorow out all the new testament by thys worde chyrche: ys then I muste nedys graunte thys terme chyrche to be as comen, and sygnifye as large and as many thinges as this terme <2ecclesia.>2 But now when I that must not nedys graunte thys to Tyndale: Tyndale may not chose but must nedys graunte me thys agayne, that yf I wyll not haue <2ecclesia>2 thorow out the new testament translated by thys word chyrche yt then Tyndale in all hys gay tale telleth vs nothynge to purpose. But that argument is now lyke as yf he wolde haue argued thus: If mayster More wyll graunte me that euery horse is a goose: then must he nedys graunte me that euery mare must haue a gander to get her wyth fole. For I nede not to graunte hym the thynge that he supposeth. Now tell I Tyndale that in no wyse I wyll not haue it so/ and that I neuer tolde hym that I wolde it haue so. But I saye playnely that yf he sholde thorowout all the new testament translate thys worde <2ecclesia>2 by thys worde chyrche: [qi] I saye that he sholde translate it very naught. And for bycause that Tyndale eyther euyll perceyueth my wordes, or elles euyll remembred them/ or fynally which is moste lykely, wolde wyllyngly make the reader to take them wronge: I wyll desyre the reader to loke vppon the place hym selfe, which is ys .viii. chapyter of the thyrd boke/ and there shall he fynde that I fynde the faute, not in that he translateth this worde <2ecclesia>2 sometyme in to this worde congregacyon, but that he chaungeth this worde chyrch in to this worde congregacyon, that is to say, that he translateth this worde <2ecclesia>2 in to this worde congregacyon, in such places as he shold haue translated yt in to this word chyrch/ that is where so euer he hath put this worde congregacyon for the companye of crysten people/ for that companye is in englyshe sygnyfyed and of olde hath ben by this holy word chyrche and neuer by this worde congregacyon. This is the faute that I fynde, and tell Tyndale in that chapyter good and playne causes wherfore, whyche Tyndale here letteth slyppe. But I wolde in no wyse that as Tyndale taketh me/ <2ecclesia>2 sholde alwaye be translated by this worde chyrche, for that were also wrong. For trewth it is that <2ecclesia>2 sygnifyeth in the greke tonge a congre- gacyon, wythout respecte of eyther good or bad crysten or vncrysten. For Tyndale sayth therin trewth, that the worde <2ecclesia>2 was vsed a thousande yere before crystendome byganne as the bokes proue. But yt wyll be hard to proue & warraunt that this word chyrch was vsed for any congregacyon byfore cristendome began, or ys euer it sygni- fyed any congregacion other then crysten. And therfore his reason grounded vppon this worde <2ecclesia>2 is lytle worth/ syth it procedeth not in lykewyse in this word chyrch. And yet touchynge this worde <2ecclesia/>2 as connynge as Tyndale wold seme therin wyth his greke & all: he semeth but porely to perceyue yt. For ye shall vnderstand that this worde <2ecclesia>2 in the greke tonge dyd not sygnyfye euery manner company or congregacyon, nor sygnyfyed not all the cytesayns of any cytye, wyth that respecte that they were cvtesayns of that cyty, or that they were gathered for playeng or fyghtynge or any such other cause: but onely these congregacyons that were gathered to gether to commen vppon maters of iudgement or polycye, eyther aboute the comen affayres of the towne con- cernynge peace or warre or some [qiv] other commodyte, or for pryuate folkes besynes in such places as all the comen people were iudges, as mych was vsed in Grece and sometyme in Rome to, and was as ye wolde saye the assemblye of the court or the comen counsayle. Now for as myche as crysten people dyd resort to gether amon them selfe to prayour and preachyng, and makyng of go naunces delyuered them by the apostles: thys name of <2ecclesia>2 was applyed vnto ys congregacyon of the crysten company. And though yt beganne of such assembles to gether: yet afterwarde yt obtayned also, bothe amonge the Grekes and Latines crystened, to sygnyfye the crysten folk whyther they were at chyrch or at home, and to sygnyfye also the vnyuersall nomber of all crysten people thorow oute all the world / where as it sygnifyed no such maner of thyng among the paynvms byforr, but onely theyr seuerall assembles such as I byfore descrybed you, and whych was in laten call <2concio>2. And yet toke the laten chirch the greke word <2ecclesia>2 of the greke chyrch that beganne byfore them/ and neuer vsed this worde <2concio,>2 whych sygnyfyed amonge the latine paynyms, both the congregacyon or assembly, and the oracyon also that any man pronounced among them in the same assembly. Now may ye perceyue that Tyndale wyth all his greke tolde you but a lame tale. For he telleth you not what manner of congregacyon <2ecclesia>2 dyd sygnyfye in the greke/ but mysse taketh yt to sygnyfye euery manner of congregacyon at auenture. And by this ye maye also perceyue how lytle yt maketh for his purpose, that saynte Luke wherof Tyndale so bosteth calleth <2ecclesia>2 thryes in one chapyter of the actes, the congregacyon that was gathered in Ephese agaynste saynte Paule. For that was suche a congregacyon as I tell you, that <2ecclesia>2 properly sygnifyed amonge ys paynyms sauyng that they gathered to gether vppon a rumour and not after theyr customable callynge. ow though the chyrch was then newly bygonne to be called by the same name of <2ecclesia,>2 and that after thexample of the tother assembly, and the name not taken from the tother assemblye, nor theyr assembly for suche maters called by none other: how wolde Tyndale haue had saynte Luke tell the tale but by suche wordes as then represented the mater? But that maketh nothynge for his pur- pose, but vtterly [qi] agaynste yt. For syth that this worde <2ecclesia,>2 dyd there sygnyfy that congregacyon of the Ephesyans whyche were paynyms/ and therfore in that place ought not to be translated by this word chyrch, whych sygnifyeth onely a cristen congregacyon and not a congregacyon of paynyms: so shuld <2ecclesia>2 in lyke wyse whereso euer yt sygnyfyeth a crysten congregacyon, be translated by this worde chyrch/ whyche is & euer hath ben the worde that synnes crystendome fyrste beganne amonge englyshe men hath alway serued therfore/ & not be translated by this worde congregacyon, whych word of congregacyon is a worde of latine, and sygnyfyeth a sort gathered to gether in to one floke, as they speke, <2in gregem ouium,>2 <2gregem gruum, gregem anserum.>2 And so when Tyndale hath all sayed and all done / this worde congregacion, excepte some specyall places where they haue by custome appoynted it to sygnyfye some sorte of men, as in some vnyuersyties yt sygnifyeth theyr assembles: ellys where no such custome hath appropred yt to any specyall manner of congregacyon/ the terme congregacyon absolutely settp, sygnifyeth no more a companye of crysten men, then a fayre flokke of vncrysten geese. But yet the chaunge of the worde, yf Tyndale had done it eyther of chaunce or of purpose for hys pleasure, and for none euyll pur- pose: I wolde neuer haue spoken worde agaynst it. But for as mych as I perceyue ys he hath ben with Luther, and was to at the same tyme when he so translated it/ and that I knewe well the malycyouse heresyes that Luther began to brynge forth: therfore muste I nedys myssetruste hym in the chaunge. And now I saye that euyn of hys owne wordes spoken here/ ye maye in hys translacyons perceyue hys cancred mynde. For he sayth that Demetrius had gathered a company agaynst Paule for prechynge agaynste ymages. Here may ys crysten reader well perceyue the poyson of thys serpent. It is to no man vnknowen that all good crysten people do bothe abhorre the Idols of the false Paynyme goddes, and honour also the ymages of Cryste and oure lady and other holy sayntes.And as they call the tone sort ymagys: so call they the tother sorte Idollys. Now where as saynte Paule preched there agaynste idols: cometh thys good man and sayth he preched agaynste ymages. And as he speketh here/ euyn so he translateth. For in ye [qiv] fyfte chapyter of saynte Paule to the Corynthyes, where saynte Paule sayth I haue wryten to you that ye company not togyther, yf any that is called a broder be a fornycatour or couetouse or a worshypper of idols: there translated Tyndale, or a worshypper of ymages/ by- cause he wolde haue it seme that the apostle had in that place for- boden crysten men to worshyppe any ymages / and that who so worshypped any ymages, men sholde not company wyth hym. Here ye maye se the synceryte and playne menynge of the mannes trans- lacyone. Now seeth he well inough, that saynte Paule spake not of ymages but of idols/ and he perceyued both that he so dyd, and also wherfore he so dyd, by hys other wordes wryten in the tenth chapyter of the same pystle/ where saynt Paule spekynge of the meate offred vnto idols whyche he wolde ys crysten men sholde forbere, sayth in thys wyse: what say I then that the idoll is any thynge, or that it whyche is offred to idols is any thynge? Nay, but I saye that those thynges whyche the Paynyms offer/ they offer to deuyls and not to god, and I wolde not that ye sholde haue any felysshyppe wyth deuyls. Thys onely texte of saynte Paule is inough to answere all the hole hepe of heretyques, that barke agaynste holy ymagys that good men honour for goddys sake. For saynt Paule here sheweth that the cause why the worshyppynge of idols was vnlefull amonge the gentyles or Paynyms/ was bycause that the worshyppe ys was done to those idols, was done to deuylys. And why, but for bycause that it was done to those idols for the loue and honour that re to those deuyls, whom they called goddes, and whom those idols represented. But so it is on the tother syde, that good folke whyche worshyppe ymages of Cryste and hys sayntes: do worshyp therby Cryste and hys sayntes whome those ymagys represente. Wherfore it foloweth that lyke wyse as the paynyms worshyppers of idols dyd euyll in the worshyppynge of them, bycause that in the worshyppynge of them they worshypped deuyls: ryght so do the crysten men well in ye worshyppynge of ymages, bycause that in the worshyppyng of ymages they worshyppe Cryste and hys holy sayntes. And now ye se good crysten readers that thys one place of saynt Paule so playnly reproueth all these heretykes that barke [qi] agaynst ymagys/ that sauyng they be shamelesse, they shold neuer loke any man in the face for shame. But Tyndale to blynde the reader wyth/ hath corrupted in his translacyon all this place of saynte Paule also, and hathe in euery place put oute idole and sette in ymage/ to make the reader wene that saynte Paule speke all this agaynste ymages / whych he so speketh agaynst ye paynyms idoles, that his reason which he maketh agaynst them, doth openly commende and conforme the crysten wurshyppynge of holy sayntes ymages. And here maye ye se what a trewe translacyon Tyndales is, and for what purpose he translateth yt false/ and god prouydeth that the scrypture which he falsyfyeth, openly fyghteth agaynste hym. This pageaunt hath he played also shamefully falsyfyenge saynt Paule in the secunde chapyter to the Romayns/ where saint Paule sayth to ys Iewes: Thou abhorrest idols and robbest god ofhis honour/ meanyng that though they abhorred the paynem idoles, & wolde not worshyppe theyr false goddes that were deuyls: yet for all that, they by the brekynge of goddes law wyth theyr euyll lyuyng, they toke away the honour fro god, in causynge hym and his law to be dys- honorably spoken of amonge the paynyms. Now commeth me Tyndale, and in dyspyght of holy ymages he hath translated that place in this wyse: Thou abhorrest ymages and takest from god his honour. Here ye se Tyndales trewth lo. Dyd saynte Paule say so? did saynt Paule meane so? dyd the Iewes abhorre ymages? they abhorred idoles but not ymages. They abhorred not in ys arch the images of the angeles, though they abhorred abrode the idoles of deuyls. But Tyndales translacyon of this place may meruel ousely well be sayed vnto hym selfe: Thou abhorrest ymages Tyndale and takeste the honour fro god/ for thou woldest haue vs set Crystes ymage at nought, whiche wythout goddes dishonour we can not do. What shyft shall Tyndale fynde now? wyll he saye that idoles and ymages be all one, bycause that idoles be a kynd of ymages, and ymage is a terme indyfferent to good and badde. For a man may saye an image of the deuyll as well as an ymage of god. Tyndale shall I thynke fynde no reader so slenderly wytted to suffer hym skape so. For though idoles be of ys kynde of ymages/ yet syth they be such a specyall kynde, as alway [qiv] to crysten mennys eares do sygnyfy euyll ymages & deuelyshe: he maye not in trans- lacyon change ys name into ys generall, wherby yt may not be per- ceyued of which kynd he speketh. For this were very nought if he dyd it in fauour of ys worse kynd, to make men wene it were better. And now when he doth it in hatered of ys better kynd to make men wene it worse/ ys is to wit in dispyght of ys images of god incarnate, & of his holy sayntes, to make them seme idoles: he doth an hundred tvmes worse. For he were not so wreched by an hondred fold as wreched as he were/ ys nedys wolde in his fonde fashyon loue god & the deuyll to gether as he yt wold loue neyther nother. And if ys Tyndale wold styffely stykke in this poynt & therby/ ys his translacyon ofidole in to ymage is good inough because idols be images: then syth yt deuils be angels as in dede they be by nature, & euyll angels be angels styll/ Tyndale maye at his pleasure translate ys deuyl in to angell without any other addicion where so euer he fynd hym thorow out all the bible. And then shall he do therin as dyd a lyke lerned preste / ys thorow out all ys gospels scraped out <2diabolus>2 & wrote <2Iesus Cristus,>2 bycause he thought ys deuyls name was not mete to stande in so good a place. And thus I thynke ys euery child may now perceyue/ with how litle lernyng & Iesse wit, & leste trewth, Tyndale hath translated this word <2ecclesia>2 in to congregacion in stede of chyrch/ & ys he hatll so substancvally defended yt, ys in the mayntenaunce of one false foly, he is now founden in twayne. For by a lyke maner as he falsely translated <2ecclesia>2 in to ys vnknowen name of congregacyon, in such places as he shold haue translated yt in to ys holy knowen name of chyrch, & ys he this hath done of a malicyouse purpose to set forth his heresy of ys secret vnknowen chyrch, wherin is neyther good workes nor sacra- mentes: so is it now proued ys in the same wyse & of lyke malyce, hath he translated idoles in to ymages, vnder the colour of the lykeneS of false goddes & deuylles, to make the scripture seme to reproue ys godly ymages of our sauyour hym selfe & his holy sayntes. And now vsynge hym self in his translacyon in such malycyouse & erronyous fashyon: he complayneth yt good men haue burned his euyll trans- lated bokes, and wyll not suffer his heresyes to go forwarde. In the ende of this chapyter Tyndale telleth me, ys I haue ben so longe vsed in my fygures of poetry/ that when I erre most, I do now as he supposeth by reason of a long custume, byleue my self yt I say most trew/ or ellys as wise peple when they daunce naked in a net, byleue ys no man se them: euen so he saith ys I thynke myn errourS so subtilly couched, ys no man can spie them. As for myn errours how subtilly they be cowched I can not tell/ nor what other men shall spie I can not say. But surely if I coud spye any in my writing my self: I wold not faile both to confesse it to god & ys world & forsake it. Now [qi] yf I be by custume of poetrye so blynded, that I can not se myne errours but wene that my lyes were trew: yet yf I fynde any that can shewe them me, I shall sone amende the fawte. But I haue one good lykelyhed that I do not erre or lye after suche fashyon as Tyndale telleth me/ in that yf it so were, Tyndale than that pryeth there vppon so narowly, and wyth suche egles eyen as he hath, were very lykely to spye it/ namely syth I go so bare dawnsyng naked in a net. And I am sure yf he spyed any such thynge in me/ he wolde of hys charyte be so good to me as to tell me. But surely hehath spyed none yet. For all that he hath hytherto pored out and called myne errours be but hys owne, & tourne vppon hys owne toppe euerychone. And as for my poetry verely I can lytell ellys, & yet not that neyther. But it had ben good for Tyndales sowle and a thowsande sowles besyde/ that he had medled but wyth poetrye in stede of holy scryp- ture all the dayes of hys lyfe. For of poetrye though there sholde hau comen lytell good/ yet coude there neuer haue comen suche an hep of harme to crysten people, as he hath of hys blynde malyce brought in to this realme by his vntrue translatynge, and more vntrew con. struyng of the holy scrypture of god/ moste malycyousely makynge the blessed worde of god, to serue hym for an instrument to dryu men to ye deuyll. And yet yf poetrye be as Tyndale calleth it, nothynge but faynynge and lyenge: then is he connynge inough and can I assure you make as mych poetry vppon any parte of scrypture, as any poete can in englande vppon any parte of Virgill. And he vseth in his wrytyng nlvch playne poetrye, wherwith he daunseth naked not all in a net/ but for ys more parte so starke naked wythout any nette at all, that there is not the bredthe of a sylken threde to couer his poetry/ of whyche poyntes of hys playne open poetry I haue shewed you some all redy, and shall anon shewe you many mo. Then he asketh me why I haue not contended with Erasmus whom calleth my derlynge, of all thys longe whyle for translatynge of thys worde <2ecclesia>2 in to thys worde <2congregatio.>2 And then he cometh forth wyth hys fete proper taunte, that I fauour hym of lykelyhed for makynge of hys boke of Moria in my howse. There had he hyt me lo saue for lakke of a lytcll salte. I haue not contended wyth Erasmus my derlynge, bycause I found no suche malycyouse entent wyth Erasmus my derlynge, as I fynde wyth Tyndale. [qiv] For had I fownde wyth Erasmus my derlyng the shrewde entent and purpose that I fynde in Tindale: Erasmus my derlynge sholde be no more my derlynge. But I fynde in Erasmus my derlynge that he detesteth and abhorreth the errours and heresyes that Tyndale playnely techeth and abydeth by/ and therfor derlyng styll. And surely yf Tyndale had eyther neuer taughte them, or vet had the grace to reuoke them: then sholde Tyndale be my dere derlynge to. But whyle he holdeth such heresies stylle/ I can not take for my derlyng hym that the deuyll taketh for hys derly Now for hys translacyon of <2ecclesia>2 by <2congregatio>2 / hys dede is nothynge lyke Tyndals. For ye laten tonge had no laten word byfore vsed for the chyrche, but the greke word <2ecclesia/>2 therfore Erasmus in hys new translacyon gaue it a laten worde. But we had in englysshe a proper englysshe worde therfore/ and therfore was no suche cause for Tyndale to chaunge it in to a worse. Erasmus also ment none heresye therein as appereth by hys wrytynge agaynste heretykes/ but entended no thynge ellys thereby as appereth by the heresyes that hym selfe teacheth and abydeth by. And therfore was there in this mater no cause for me to contende wyth Erasmus, as there was to contende wyth Tyndale wyth whom I contende for puttynge in congregacyon in stede of chyrch/ excepte ys Tyndale peraduenture meaneth that I sholde haue ben angry wyth Erasmus bycause that in stede of congregacyon in hys laten translacyon, he hadde not put in our englysshe worde chyrche. As touchyng Moria in which Erasmu vnder the name and person of Moria whyche worde in greke sygnyfyeth foly/ doth merely towche and reproue suche fawtes and folyes as he founde in any kynde of people perusynge euery state and condycyon spyrytuall and temporall, leuynge all moste none vntowched/ by whych boke Tyndale sayt that yf it were in englysshe, euery man sholde then well se that I wa then ferre otherwyse mynded then I now wryte: yf thys be trew, then the more cause haue I to thanke god of amendement. But surely this is vntrew. For god be thanked I neuer hadde that mynde in my lyfe to haue holy sayntes ymages or theyr holy relykes out of reuerence Nor yf there were any suche thynge in Moria: that thyng coude no yet make any man se, that I were my selfe of that mynde/ the [ri boke beynge made by a nother man though he were my derlynge neuer so dere. How be it that boke of Moria doeth in dede but ieste vppon the abuses of suche thynges, after the manner of the dysours parte in a playe, & yet not so farre neyther by a greate deale, as th messenger doth in my dyalog/ whyche I haue yet suffered to stand styll in my dyaloge, & ys rather yet by the counsayle of other me then of my selfe. For all be yt that yt be lawfull to any man to mysselyke the myss euse of euery good thynge/ and that in my dyaloge there be no onely those euyll thynges rehersed but answered also and soyled and the goodnes of the thyng self well vsed is playnely confyrmed an proued: yet hath Tyndale by erronyouse bokes in settynge forth Luthers pestylent heresyes, so enuenemed the hartes of lewdly dis posed persones/ ys men can not almost now speke of such thynges in so mych as a play, but ys such euyll herers wax a grete dele ys wors And therfore in these dayes in which Tyndale hath (god amend hym) wyth thenfeccion of his contagyouse heresyes, so sore poysenec malycyouse and newfangle folke/ that the kynges hyghnes and no wythout the counsayle and aduyce not of his nobles onely, wyth his other counsaylours attendynge vppon his gracys person/ but also the ryght vertuouse and specyall well lerned men of eyther vn- yuersyte & other partyes of the realme specyally called thereto, hathe after dylygent and longe consyderacyon hadde therein, ben fayne for the whyle to prohybyte the scrypture of god to be sufferd in englyshe tonge amonge the peoples handes/ leste euyll folke by false drawyng of euery good thynge they rede in to the colour and mayn- tenauns of theyr owne fonde fantasyes, and turnynge all hony in to posyn, myght both dedly do hurte vnto theym selfe, and sprede also that infeccyone farther a brode: I saye therfore in these dayes in whyche men by theyr owne defaute mysseconstre and take harme of the very scrypture of god, vntyll menne better amende, yf any man wolde now translate Moria in to Englyshe, or some workes eyther that I haue my selfe wryten ere this, all be yt there be none harme therin/ folke yet beynge (as they be) geuen to take harme of that that is good/ I wolde not onely my dellynges bokes but myne owne also, helpe to burne them both wyth myne owne handes, rather then folke sholde (though thorow theyr own faute) take any harme of them, seynge that I se them lykely in these dayes so to do. [riv] But now after this Tyndale handeleth me full vncourtesly/ for he taketh awaye all my thanke and rewarde that I sholde haue had of the spyrytualtye. For he sheweth them that I wrote not my boke for any affeccyon that I bere to them/ no more then Iudas bytrayed Cryst for any fauour ys he bare to the hygh prestes, scrybes, and ut ys I dyd the tone as he dyd the tother, for the lucre that shold come therof/ after whych he sayth that I so sore hungre, ys the good man as my frend prayeth for me that I eat not to faste for chokynge. Now yf the spyritualtye had ben aboute to haue gathered a dysme amonge them and geue yt me: Tyndale here had loste yt me euery peny. But god forgeue the good man and I do. For when he speketh of my lucre/ in good fayth he maketh me laugh/ and so I wene he maketh many mo to, that knowe well god be thanked ys I haue not so mych lucre therby, that I stande in so grete parell of chokynge wyth lucre, as Tyndale standeth in daunger of chokynge (god saue the man) wyth the bones of buttred bere. Now where Tyndale sayth I haue fayntely defended ys thynges wherof I wryte: the thynges be stronge inough and lytle nede me to defend them/ and also my purpose was not so mych to do that that neded not, that is to wyt to defende them/ as to proue and make the people perceyue that Tyndale went aboute to brynge in heresyes openynge of lyght vnto the worlde, he take the lyghtesome lanterne of good ensample/ by whych the worlde maye se for a shewe of holy matrymony, frere Luther and Cate calate hys nonne lye luskynge togyther in lechery. Now to resyste thys deuelysshe spyryte my pore spyryte, for all Tyndales hygh ferefull charge is so lytell afrayed/ that I call hartely to ys spyryte of god to quenche the fowle fyrebronde of that helly lyght, & that so thorowly that the worlde se neuer any suche example more. And now when that I had thus thorowly serched well my breste and my boke, and saw my conscyence clere, farre out of any suche cause of ieoperdy: then Tyndals terryble exorcysme made me not mych to trymble/ syth heretykes haue of olde be wont alwaye to vse suche wordes. But my mind more gaue me to laughe at his hygh solemne charge / wherby he wolde wyth hys straunge wordes en- chaunt and charme the reader, and make hym wene he were walkynge [riv] downe to helle quykke, yf he made so mych as a mumme agaynst Luthers lechery. Now where as Iudas and Balaam were not mete samples for me, that bere my self neyther for an apostle nor for a prophete: I myghte here laye them bothe well for playne samples to hym that bereth hym selfe for a ryghte apostle that were sent to preche a new fayth to thys realme and a newe euangelyste to, that maketh with his false translacyon newe scrypture of hys owne/ & very proprely playeth he the parte of Balaam to, in that he laboreth to brynge maledyccyons vppon Hierusalem, that is the catholyke chyrche of Cryste. And here myghte I brynge hym other samples in also very mete for the mater of menne mych lyke hym selfe, heretykes I mene of olde tyme & some of later dayes not longe afore Luther. And when I had rehersed vp a Ragmans roll of a rable of heretykes, and shewed a shrewed sorte that cam to sorow for theyr synne: then myght I lo yf I had Tyndals spyryte, spet out scrypture apace & exhorte Tyndale agayn holily, to Lake hede & beware by tyme lest like heresies & like malyce brynge hym to lyke myschyefe. But as for me I can no suche facyon/ and therfore lettyng all such hygh processe passe, of rype synnys, and ascendyng to heuyn and wakyng god out of slepe, and set hym on husbandry, and dryue hym to heruest wyth mowers of vengeaunce and repers of rype synnys, leuynge Tyndale in hys vengeable parables: I can no more I, but praye god amende hym and make hym a good man. Agaynste Tyndales vsynge this worde Senior and elder, and not preste. Tyndale. ANOTHER thynge whych he rebuketh is, that I interprete this greke worde presbyteros by this word seniour. Of a treuth seniour is no very good englyshe, though seniour and iunior be vsed in the vniuersyties: but there came no better in my mynde at that tyme. How be it I spyed my faute sens, longe yere M. More told it me, and haue mended it in all the workes whyche I sens made, and call yt an elder. More. Tyndale in thys chapyter at great length declareth for his excuse, four fayre vertues in hym self/ malice, ignorans, [ri] errour, and foly. For in hys longe babelynge he hath neuer a clause but it falleth in one of these foure, and some one in all foure as ye shall se ferther in hys wordes folowynge. Here in the begynnynge leste he sholde seme to haue lerned the knowledge of his ignoraunce by my monycyon:he sayth yt he per- ceyued hys faute hym selfe byfore & amended it to. For where as for lakke of fyndynge a better englysshe worde he sayth that he had translated thys worde <2Presbiteros>2 in to thys worde senyours in englysshe: he hath now amended it and made it elders. Here hath he done a grete acte, now that he hath at laste founde out elder. He hath of lykelyhed ryden many myle to fynde out that. For that worde elder is ye wote well so straunge and so lytell knowen, that it is more then meruayle how that euer he coude fynde it out. And one thynge I promyse you yf it were not worse then senior/ he hadde not founde it yet. For thys is a lyke amendynge, as yf he wolde where a man were blynde of the tone eye/ amende hys syghte by puttynge out the tother. Thys word <2Presbiter>2 in the greke, as it sygnifyeth ye thyng that men call a preste in englysshe/ was called somtyme <2senior>2 in latyn. But thys thynge that englysshe men call a preste, and that the greke chyrche called <2Presbiter,>2 and the latyn chyrche also and somtyme <2senior:>2 was neuer called elder neyther in the greke chyrch, nor the latyn, nor the englysshe neyther. Now thys beyng thus/ iudge good readers your selfe whyther of two bad, it was not better when he called a preste a senior, by whyche worde it was called somtyme at the leste wyse in some langage/ then when he calleth a prest an elder, by whyche worde it was neuer called nor knowen neyther in one langage nor other. And so ye maye se how wysely by longe leysure and warnynge to, Tyndale hath amended hys mater. Tyndale. And in that he maketh heresye of it, to call presbiteros an elder: he condemneth theyrowne olde laiyn texte of he,esye also, whiche they vse yet dayly in the chynche and haue vsed I suppose this .xiii. hundred yeres. For that texte doeth call it an elder lyke wyse. More. Se the synceryte and playnnesse of the good man. It is no maystry for hym to make proper solucyons, yf hym selfe maye make the obieccyons, suche as no man obiecteth noi [riv] wolde obiecte agaynst hym but hym selfe. For here he sayth that I make it heresie to call <2eresbyteros>2 an elder, whych thyng I neuer sayed nor thought. But I sayed & saye and trewth I saye, that Tyndale dyd in his englysh translacycn chaunge the word of preste in to senior of an heretycall mynde and entent to set forth his heresye / wllerby he techeth that presthed is no sacrament. For as for this worde elder, how coulde I then charge hym wyth yt as an heresye/ when he had not then translated elder but senior, tyll now that he hath by lenger laysour amendyd yt and made yt worse. So that ye may fyrste here se a pece of his playne poetrye double proued and double reproued/ by whyche he laycth vnto me the thynge that I neuer sayed nor had at that tyme eyther cause to saye or occasyon to thynke vppon. Nor nowe I saye not that yt is heresye, yf he haue as he saith trans- lated synnes that tyme <2Presbyteros>2 by this worde elder: but I say he doth it with the mynde of an heretyque to set forth his heresye. For ellys I wolde not call it heresye, yf one wolde translate <2Presbyteros>2 a blok: but I wold say he were a blok hed. And as very a blokhed were he, that wold translate <2Presbyteros>2 an elder in stede of a preste, for that this english worde elder sygnyfyeth no more a preste, then this greke worde <2Presbyteros>2 sygnyfyeth an elder stykke. And yet this thynge beynge so properly spoken as ye se: he sayth that the olde translacyon in latyne redde in the chyrch this.xiiii. hundred yere, calleth <2Presbyteros>2 an elder in lyke wyse. Whych worde of Tyndale I wolde call a lye/ sauynge yt yt is more then a lye by a syllable. Tyndale. In the.v. chapyter of the fyrste of Peter, thus standeth yt in the latine text: Seniores qui in vobis sunt, obsecro ego consenior, pascite qui in vobis est gregem Cristi. The elders that are amonge you/ I beseche whyche am an elder also, that ye fede the flocke of Criste whychis amonge you. There is presbyteros called an elder. More. Herd ye reder euer such a nother? Is <2presbyteros>2 here called an elder in ys olde latine translacyon? I fynde there this word <2seniores,>2 where the greke chyrch vsed in theyr langage <2Presbyteros.>2 But as for this word elder which Tindale sayth is ye old latyne translacyon: he were lyke to pore out his eyen vppon ye latyne boke ere he fynde yt englyshe word elder there, but yf [ri] he cause yt to be wryten in hym selfe. And yet he layeth lyke textes.iii. or foure/ some in ye pystles of saynt Iohan, & some in the Actes, where he fyndeth in stede of <2Presbyteros>2 this word <2seniores>2 and <2natu maiores/>2 and alwaye he setteth thereto, lo here is <2presbyteros>2 called an elder and an elder in byrth, as though this latine word <2seniores>2 or <2natu maiores>2 were this englysh word elder / where he sayth that <2Presbyteros>2 is called elder in the olde translacyon/ whych as ye se muste nedes be false: but yf this englyshe worde be in that latine boke, and that he make englyshe latine and latine englyshe. But now leste he call the redargucyon of his foly sophystycacyon/ lette vs diuine for hym what he myght meane. He wyll happely say, that he meaneth ys this greke word <2Presbyteros>2 is in the texte that he hath alleged called by the olde translatour <2seniores,>2 and <2seniores>2 sygnyfyeth elder or elders. And so though this worde elder be not in the latine translacyon, yet syth that latine worde is there that sygnyfyeth in laten the same thynge that this worde elder sygnyfyeth in en i we can not blame hym for translatynge <2Presbyteros>2 in elder/ but yf we blame in lyke wyse the translatour, for translatynge <2Presbyteros>2 in to this worde <2seniores.>2 Fyrste yf I sayed that the olde translacyon were in that poynt not so well as yt myght haue ben/ I sholde not saye so alone. And Erasmus whom Tyndale calleth my derlyng, and whom hym selfe doth for all that in his own translacyon preferre byfore the olde/ doth as well in the sayed pystle of saynt Peter, as in the sayd.xx. chapiter ofthapostles Actes, not onely kepe styll the greke worde <2Presbyteros,>2 but sheweth also that the old translatour translated it not well, bycause he trans- lated there thys worde <2Presbyteros>2 into thys worde <2seniores,>2 and in the tother place into <2maiores natu/>2 but sayth that he shold rather haue kepte styll the worde <2Presbyteros>2 vnchaunged, bycause that worde yt ys sygnyfyeth authoryte wyth the grekes/ where <2seniores>2 in latine sygnyfyeth but theyr age, and all were not olde as appered by Timothe. And for that cause in the sayed place of saynte Peter his pystle/ saynt Hierome amendeth that olde translacyon and kepeth <2Presbyteros>2 styll, recitynge saynte Peter in this wyse: <2Presbyteros qui sunt in vobis obsecro ego com->2 <2Presbyter.wherein>2 saynt Hierome was rather contente to ioyne the latine coniunccyon with the greke word, and call yt <2comPresbyter/>2 then to chaunge that worde sygnyfyenge the office in to <2seniores>2 and <2con->2 <2senior,>2 sygnifyeng but ys age. [riv] For amonge the latines <2senior>2 sygnyfyed none other/ but amonge the grekes <2Presbyteri>2 was the name that many tymes sygnyfyed rulers and gouernours. Now yf we lyste we may yet excuse the olde translatour/ whych how sone after Crystes deth he translated it who can tell? And then when the latine chyrche had no laten worde for the crysten prestes all redy receyued & vsed/ what blame was he worthy that toke that worde not contynually but amonge, whyche of all the latine wordes semed to hym to go nexte the sygnifycacyon of <2Presbyteros>2 at that tyme. And ys was as hym thought <2seniores,>2 in whych word yet the chyrch neuer folowed hym though/ but though they redde his trans- lacion openly in diuine seruyce, yet neyther in theyr wrytynge nor preachynge wold they take vp that worde and call a preest seniour/ as appereth by the bokes and sermons of all holy doctours synnys. And therfore Tyndale is wythoute excuse, whyche hath translated <2Presbyteros>2 by this englyshe worde elders/ a worde vnknowen amonge englyshe men to sygnyfye prestes / and amonge whom this word preste was ys proper englesh word well knowen, and had serued in that sygnifycacyon so many hundred yere afore Tyndale was borne. Also go me to the place whych Tyndale alledgeth in the fyrste pystle of saynt Petre: <2Seniores qui sunt in vobis obsecro ego consenior Pascite>2 <2qui in vobis est gregem Christi.>2 Whych place I take for ensample. For where he layeth two places of the pystles of saynt Iohan, and one in the.xx. of the Actes / all be for one purpose, and this one place answerd, answereth them all: I saye therfore that Tyndale hath euen here in this his newe boke translated that same place wronge, and all the remanaunt in lyke wyse. And that wyll I proue partely by Tyndales owne wordes, whych in this boke folowe the translacyon of those wordes. The elders that are amonge you, I beseche whych am an elder also, that ye fede the flocke of Cryste whychis amonge you. There is presbyteros called an elder. And in that he sayth fede Cristes flocke / he meaneth euen the ministers that were chosen to teache the people and to enforme them in godd;s worde and no laye persones. More. Lo Tyndale here shewed hym selfe that by this worde <2seniores,>2 be there vnderstanden the minysters that were chosen to teache peple. Then say I that yf this word <2seniores>2 was ta[sl]ken in that sygnyfy. cacyon there / Tyndale sholde not translate yt in to this englysh worde elder, whych sygnifyeth not the offyce but the age here. And this is I say trew/ all were it so that Tyndales false heresy were trew, that holy orders were no sacrament at all/ but a bare offyce. For yf yt were, but in a prophane comen storye, in whych men maye boldely be in the translacyon at myche more lybertye then in holy scrypture. Yet were he a noughtye translatour that wolde translate a thynge in to suche a worde, as in the tonge in to whyche he translateth, is not vnderstanden in that sygnyfycacyon. As yf percase a man wolde translate a latine cronycle in to englyshe, in whyche were mencyon made of some thynge done in London/ yf he founde in that cronycle the aldermen called by the name of <2senatores,>2 or peraduenture <2seniores:>2 he shold yet in his englyshe trans- lacyon call them not senatours nor elders neyther, syth neyther of those two wordes is in englyshe the name by whych the aldermen of London be knowen/ but he muste therfore translate <2senatores>2 and <2seniores>2 also in to aldermen in his englyshe translacyon. And ferther yf he there founde this worde <2senatus Londinensis:>2 he shold not translate yt in to this worde senate/ but eyther into mayre and aldermen, or percase (yf the circumstaunce of the mater so lede hym to yt) in to mayre, aldermen, and comen counsayle. And therfore as ye playnely se / Tyndales defence of his trans- latynge <2Presbyteros>2 in to elders is as feble to stykke to, as is an olde roten elder stykke, & though yt were but in a prophane storye. Now where yt is in the holy storye of Crystes gospell: what manner a thyng is it to translate elder in stede of prest, whych worde elder in engleshe was neuer so taken nor vnderstanden / and thus to do wythout necessyte, hauyng this worde preste so comenly knowen and so longe. i, Why doth he not by the same reason chaunge bysshoppe in to ouerseer, & deaken in to seruer? both whych he myght as well do as preste in to elder. And then muste he wyth his translacyon make vs an englysh vocabularye of his owne deuyse to. And so wyth such prouisyon he maye chaung chynne in to cheke, and belye in to bakke, & euery worde into other at his owne pleasure, yf all Englande lyste now to go to scole wyth Tyndale to lerne englyshe, and ellys not. Now yf he wolde saye that wyth suche chaunges he coude [siv] chaunge the names in to the better and shewe vs what the names sygnyfye/ fyrste yf he sayed therein trew, he may tell vs those sygny- fycacyons in a tale bysyde/ but he muste in englysshe let englysshe wordes stande in hys englysshe translacyon for all that. And yet were out of hys mouthe a ryght good tale euyll worth the herynge/ for wyth a lytell hony he mengleth so mych poyson: that rather then to swalowe the tone downe wyth the tother/ a man were yet mych better to forbere them bothe. Yet setteth me Tyndale one myghty stronge bulwarke to fence in all hys felde, out of whyche he shoteth a sore shot of serpentyns/ when he asketh me <2why the apostles used not>2 <2this greke worde hiereus, or the interPreter this latyne worde sacerdos, but>2 <2alwaye these wordes Presbyteros and senior>2 / <2by whiche was at that tyme>2 <2nothynge sygnyfyed other then an elder.>2 Thys shotte shall I not now mych nede to fere. For lyke wyse as from ys shotte of a gonne a man were metely saufe, that had ere the gonne were losed, made a steppe asyde.xv. hundred myle from it: so syth I am stepped now fyftene hundred yere from the apostles dayes, and almost as many from the interpretours tyme, of whose ententes and purposes Tyndale asketh me now the why/ I maye saye that I neuer talked so mych with them by mowth, as to aske them the why/ and therfore syth they haue not wryten me ye why, I am not bounde to tell Tyndale the why. But I aske of Tyndale no suche farre fet whyes, but a why of hys owne dede. And that syth we now haue, and hundredes of yeres haue had englysshe names inough for such orders of offyces as he trans- lated out of latyn: I aske hym thys why/ why dyd he translate the same by thys englysshe worde elder, whyche nothynge sygnyfyeth the same. And syth that in the textys that hym selfe alledgeth, neyther the greke worde <2Presbyteri>2 nor the latyne worde <2seniores>2 sygnyfyeth in those places by Tyndales owne confessyon the age but ys offyce: why gyueth he than that englysshe worde elder in theyr stede, whyche sygnyfyeth not the offyce but the age. For though Tyndale say that <2Presbiteros>2 & <2seniores>2 was at that tyme nothynge vnaerstanden but an elder, wherin as towchynge <2Presbyteros>2 peraduenture it wyll be proued vntrew: yet syth hym selfe sayth not nay, but by hys owne wordes affermeth (and in that poynt it happeth hym to saye trewe in dede) yt bothe <2Presbyteros>2 & <2seniores>2 be in those places set to sygnyfye the offyce & not the age (for els had yonge Timothe vp[si]pon the callynge togyther <2ofPresbyteros>2 or <2seniores,>2 ben lefte vncalled and had leue to byde at home) what so euer moued in the fyrste gyuynge of the name the apostles or the interpreter to call the offyce by the name <2ofPresbyteros>2 in greke, or <2seniores>2 in latyne/ it was Tyndales parte yet in hys englysshe translacyon to gyue it that englysshe name, by whyche the offyce (were it holy or prophane) was and longe h-ad ben comenly knowen in englande. And ferther yf no specyall name wolde haue contented hym: yet sholde he then haue called <2Presbyteros>2 the rewlers, gouernours, or offycers, or some suche other englysshe worde whyche sygnyfyeth offyce, rather then to call it elders/ by whyche name there is in the englysshe tonge none offyce vnderstanden at all but onely the bare age. And thus as touchyng chaunge of <2Presbyteros>2 in to seniores, and hys amendement in to elders, that is to wyt from euyll to wurse: ye se how well he hath quyt hym. How be it yf he had had in the chaunge none other fawte but foly/ it sholde haue ben longe ere I wolde haue gone about to fynde it. But now standeth all ys mater in this whyche he slyppeth ouer/ that he dyd it of very cankered malyce, by whyche he setteth forth agaynste Cryste and hys chyrche hys dedely malycyouse heresye / wherewyth he wolde make men wene that holy orders were no sacrament. And for that cause he asketh why that the apostles dyd not call ys prestes <2hiereus>2 in greke but <2Presbyteros,>2 whyche sygnyfyed he sayth nothyng but onely elders. And by this reason wolde Tyndale haue it seme, that the apostles dyd take the crysten prestes for no more consecrate persons then other crysten men, bycause they vsed a worde that had none holy sygnyfycacyon. But Tyndale here though he wynke faste/ is not yet so faste a slepe as he maketh for. For yf he lysted ot lyfte vp his hed and loke up a lytell: he sholde sone se that hys argument were assoyled wyth the tother worde, whyche he hath also mysse translated of lyke malyce <2ecclesia.>2 For yf he wyll nedys argue that prestes be no persons consecrated, nor theyr order no sacrament, bycause ye apostles called them <2Pres->2 <2byteri/>2 whyche name had at that tyme none holy sygnyfycacyon in the greke tonge where they toke it: then seeth Tyndale well inough (sauynge that he wynketh and wyll not se it) that it must nedys folowe, that baptysme were no sacrament neyther, bycause the apostles and euan[siv]gelystes called it <2baPtisma,>2 and in holy scrypture also named ye holy company of baptysed people by this greke word <2ecclesia/>2 of whyche two wordes <2baptisma>2 and <2ecclesia>2 neyther nother had in the greke tonge before, any holy sygnyfycacyon at all, nor sygnifyed there any other thyng then ys tone a wesshyng/ the tother a congregacyone or assemble ofhethen paynem people. And thus is in thys poynte Tyndales playne foly and dissymuled falsed, well and playnely conuycted. And now syth that the apostles and euangelystes dyd apply and approper that prophane worde <2ecclesia,>2 to sygnyfy ye hole company of crysten people sacred and sanctifyed in the holy sacrament of baptysme / and in lykewyse the prophane worde <2Presbyteros>2 to sygnyfye a certayne sorte of the same companye, specyally consecrate vnto god by the holy sacrament of order: he that now translateth those wordes in those places in to the englysshe tonge by any other wordes then such as in the englysshe tonge do sygnyfye those holy consecrate companyes, the tone segregate from paynyms by the sacra- ment of baptysme, the tother segregate fro the laye people by the sacrament of order/ as Tyndale hath done bothe in the holy name of chyrche and prestes, callynge the tone but congregacyon, the tother fyrst but senyor & now that worse is but elder/ yf he know it for no faute, then is it grete ignoraunce/ yf he forgete to marke it, then is it grete neglygence/ yf he perceyue it and dyssymule it, then is it grete falshed/ yf he do it as Tyndale doeth, to make presthed seme none holy sacrament, then is it a very malycyouse pestylente heresye/ lyke as yf he wolde in lyke maner and of lyke entent trans- late <2baPtisma>2 in to wasshynge, to make men wene it were no nother maner wasshyng when the preste crysteneth a chyld, then when a woman wassheth a bukke of clothes. He planteth in a grete processe to small purpose/ bycause I sayd ys Tymothe was not olde. And then Tyndale sayth that saynt Paule chose hym bycause he found in hym more wysdome, sadnes, and vertue, then in the aged men of that place. And Tyndale doeth well to tell vs so/ for ellys wolde all ye world haue went that saynt Paule had made a yonge man bysshoppe, bycause he wolde haue had hym. wylde. But then goth he forth and sheweth vs a solemne processe, that god and necessyte is lawlesse/ and all this he bryngeth in to proue that not onely yonge men but women also, may for necessyte mynyster all the sacramentes/ and that as they [si] may crysten for necessyte, so they may for necessyte preache, and for necessyte consecrate also the blessed bodye of Cryste. And for to make this mater lykely: he is fayne to ymagyne an vnlykely case/ that a woman were dreuen alone in to an Ilande where Cryste was neuer preached, as though thynges that we call chaunce and happe, happed to come so to passe wythout any prouydence of god. Tyndale may make hym selfe sure, that syth there falleth not a sparow vppon ys ground wythout our father that is in heuen: there shall no woman fall a lande in any so farre an Ilande, where he will haue his name preached and his sacramentes mynystred/ but that god can and wyll well inough prouyde a man or twayne to come to lande wyth her, wherof we haue had all redy metely good experyence and that wyth in few yeres. For I am sure there haue ben mo Ilandes and more parte of the ferme lande and contynent, dyscouered and founden out wythin this fourty yeres laste passed/ then was new founden, as farre as any man may perceyue this thre thousand yere afore/ and in many of these places the name of Cryste now new knowen to and preachynges had, and sacramentes mynystred, wythout any woman fallen a lande alone. But god hath prouyded that his name is preached by such good crystesn folke as Tyndale now moste rayleth vppon/ ys is good rely- & specyally ye freres obseruauntes, honeste, godly, chaste, vertuose people/ not by such as frere Luther is that is runne out ofreligyon, nor by castyng a lande alone any suche holy nonne as his harlot is. When Tyndale hath proued by this vnprobable case, that women maye consecrate the bodye of Cryste: then he lamenteth the myser- able seruytude of the symple soules the pore sely women, by cause men wyll not suffer them to say masse, and cryeth out vppon vs: o pore women. <2How dyspyse ye them. The vyler the better welcome to you.>2 <2Better is toyou an whore then a good woman.>2 O the tender herte of pytuouse Tyndale. He begynneth now by lykelyhed to loke towarde weddyng he speketh lyke a woer. But he wyll I warraunt you no vyle person. But bycause he is a prest and hath promysed perpetually to lyue chaste / he wyll none whore ther- fore, but rather wyll do as Luther hath done, wedde a nonne and make her an whore. Then exhorteth he full holyly, and in manner coniureth also the reader in our lorde god, that he shall rede ouer the [siv] two pystles of saynt Poule wryten to Timothe, wherof hym selfe also reherseth parte/ whych who so euer rede, shall se therin both the false malyce of the man, and yet the workyng of god therewyth. For god hath caused Tyndale to putte in suche thynges as dyrectyly reproue his owne condycyons/ and the deuyll hath made hym falsely to leue out those wordes which yf he hadde set in/ muste nedes haue openly declared that all is heresye that euer he gothe aboute. For saynt Paule there teacheth Timothe to beware and avoyde the companye of men of corrupte myndes, whyche waste theyr braynes aboute wrangelynge questyons. And Tyndale is in companye of none other/ but such as Luther is and frere Huskyn and theyr felowes, that had wasted out theyr wyttes so longe about wrangelynge heresyes, yt now they are fallen at laste to runne out of relygyon, and waste out theyre braynes aboute wrangelyng wyues. Saynt Poule also teacheth Tymothe, that he sholde not sharpely rebuke any man that were elder then hym selfe, but exhorte hym as his father, though hym selfe was bysshope and as Tyndale sayth an apostle to. Now Tyndale beyng neyther nother, nor hauynge any offyce so mych as among heretiques: letteth neyther sharpely to rebuke his elders in age, nor also to ieste and rayle vppon all states spyrytuall and temporall thorow out all Crystendome, and namely agaynste all relygyouse men, but yf they wyll runne out and wedde. And thus ye maye se wyth what frute Tyndale readeth saynt Paule. Now wold I that Tyndale had putte in this place these wordes that he leueth out: <2Noli negligere gratiam au@ in>2 <2te est, qu@ data est tibi per prophetiam, cum>2 <2imPositione manuum Presbyteri.>2 Neglecte not the grace that is in the, whych was geuen the by prophecye, wyth the puttynge vppon the- handes of a prest. And afterwarde in the .ii. pystle: <2Admoneo te vt resuscites gratiam>2 <2dei, qu@ est in te per impositionem manuum mearum.>2 I warne the that thou styrre vppe the grace of god, that is in the by the puttynge of myn handes vppon the. These wordes of saint Paule to Timothe in those pystles whyche Tyndale exhorteth euery man to rede, and wherof hym selfe re- herseth also parte: do manyfestely reproue Tindales heresye, and clerely proue the holy order of prestehed a sacrament. For these places shewe bothe ye sensyble sygne of layenge [si] the apostles handes vppon Timothe in the makyng of hym preste/ and also that god gaue hys grace therwyth. And the fyrst texte sheweth also after the greke (in whyche it is wyth the puttynge vppon the handes not of a preste as the latyn is but of prestehed) the power and authoryte that Timothe had in gyuynge the same grace forthe vnto other, whom he sholde after make prestes. And these textes do so playnely reproue hym/ that he is fayne to make a shamefull shamelesse shyfte to voyde them, suche as all tlle worlde may wonder at. For he sayth in his boke of obedyence, that the puttynge on of saynte Paules handes vppon Timothe was no sacramentall sygne/ nor any other thynge but a custume of puttyng a mannys hand vppon a nother/ as men do here vppon a boyes hed when they call hym good sonne/ or as saynt Paule vsed to streche out hys arme to the people when he preched. What auayleth it to lay manyfeste holy scrypture to Tyndale, that forceth so lytell so manyfestely to mokke it. Tyndale cryeth out that euery man mysseconstrueth ys scryptuic/ and then hym selfe ye se what construccyon he maketh. Saynt Paule sayth playnly that Timothe receyued grace by the puttynge of hys handes vppon hym. And Tyndale letteth not to tell hym as playnely nay/ and that he dyd but stroke Timothees hed and call hym good sonne, by lykely- hede bycause he was but yonge. But how so euer Tyndale lyste to tryfle/ these places playnely reproue and conuycte hys heresye, and proue prestehed an holy sacrament. Now falleth he to raylynge vppon the holy ceremonyes of prestehed as shauynge & anoyntynge. And fyrste he sayth that yf onely shauen and anoynted may preche or consecrate the sacramentys: then Cryste dyd them not nor none of his apostles, nor any man in longe tyme after/ for they vsed no suche ceremonyes. Thys is a worthy ieste I promyse you. If me lysted here to tryfle as Tyndale doeth/ I coude aske hym how he proueth that saynt Peter was neuer shauen, syth I suppose he neuer saw hym/ or yf he wolde put me to proue that he was shauen, and therin when I coude fynde no playne scrypture for it, Tyndale wold not byleue me but yf I broughte forth hys barbour: I myghte tell Tyndale agayne that I were not bounden syth the scrypture sheweth it not, to byleue hym that saynt Peter was euer crystened, tyll Tyndale brynge [siv] forthe hys godfather. But these fantasyes of hys and myne bothe, go farre fro the mater. The trouth is that as god by Moyses taughte hys synagoge certayne goodly ceremonyes for the garnysshynge of ys seruyce done to hym by his chosen people there, and for the styrynge of them to deuocyon: so hath he by hys owne holy spyryte whom he sent to instructe hys chyrche, taught them holy ceremonyes to be vsed about hys blessed sacramentes, to the honour therof and to the encreace of crysten mennys deuocyon, as in dede it doth what so euer Tyndale bable. Now be there amonge these, the shauynge and the anoyntynge of the preste. And so is there thapparayle of the preste at masse, and many other obseruaunces vsed in the same. Now yf some of the same were before vsed eyther amonge iewes or paynyms / yet Crystes chyrche borowed them neyther of the iewes nor the paynyms as Tyndale sayth, but toke them agayne of god. Now where Tyndale argueth yt yf none maye consecrate the sacrament but onely shauen and anoynted, then Cryste nor any of hys apostles myghte not, by- cause they were neuer shauen nor anoynted: he maketh a worshyppe- full reason. For fyrste our sauyour Cryste the very inwarde anoynted preste, whom god hadde anoynted wyth the oyle of gladnes aboue all hys felowes: neded neyther ceremony nor sacrament as towchynge hym selfe. And as towchynge hys apostles, though Cryste vnto them instytuted sacramentes: yet he lefte many of the ceremonyes to the holy ghoste to teche, by whom they be instytuted and by whom they be in the chyrche contynued. Now is there none that maye consecrate the sacrament, but yf he be fyrste made preste/ and preste is there none made, but the ceremonyes of shauynge and anoyntynge are vsed in ys makynge/ though they be not the substaunce of the sacra- ment of order, no more then ys cathecismes and exorcismes at the crystenyng, be of the substaunce of ys sacrament of baptysme. And therfore though before those ceremonyes vsed, prestes myghte con- secrate vnshauen and vnanoynted, when shauynge and anoyntyng was not yet instytuted: yet now can there none do so, syth there is no preste made vnshauen and vnanoynted. For yf they make any at wyttenberge by a bare choyse, wythout the gyuynge of ys sacrament of holy orders by such as haue power to gyue them/ they be no prestes nor maye not consecrate at all, no more then maye the deuyll. [ti] Tyndale. And seynge that the oyle is not of necessite: let M. More tell me what more vertue is in the oyle of confyrmacyon, in as mych as the byshoppe sacryth the one as well as the other/ ye and let hym tell the reason why there shuld be more vertue in the oyle wherewith the byshoppe anoynteth his prestes Lette hym tell you from whence the oyle cometh, how it is made, and why he selleth ys to the curates wherewyth they anoynte the sycke, or whether this be of lesse vertue then the other. More. Tyndale here putteth many questyons to me, whyche he wyll that I muste nedys answere bycause the oyle in the makynge of a preste is not of necessyte/ but surely these questyons be to ys mater of mych lesse necessyte. How be it bycause I must nedys answere to men of suche authoryte, when the questyons be so solempnely put: I saye that yf a bysshoppe sacre the tone oyle and the tother bothe alyke, there is no more vertue in the tone then is in the tother. But I say that the oyle beynge all one/ it is in the anoyntynge of the preste an holy ceremony/ and in the anoyntynge of the chylde at confyrmacyon it is the mater of an holy sacrament/ and in ys anelyng of ys sycke also, and euery of these two is one of the seuen, whyche the spyryte of god hath taught the chyrche of Cryste to knowe and vse for.vii. souerayne meanys of very specyall grace. And therfore such dyfference is there, as is bytwene the halowed water standynge in the font before it be occupyed, or yf it were sprynkled vppon a man for holy water/ and the same halowed water beynge occupyed in the crystenynge of a chylde at the tyme in whyche it is applyed thereto. For in that tyme besyde the goodnes (hat it hath of the halowyng/ it hath a nother effectuall goodnes by goddys ordynaunce, whereby it is made a meane of purgyng the soule fro synne and infusyon ofgoddys grace, and ofenablynge the newe regendred creature to inherytaunce of heuyn. And when Tyndale asketh me in any of these thynges ys cause & reason why: I myght as well aske hym ys cause and reason why, in the nature and properte of any naturall thynge, beste, herbe, tre, or stone. Whych yf I were so madde to loke that Tyndale were able to tell me: what had he more to saye, then that god had planted that nature and properte therin. Whych answere shall also serue in these holy ceremonyes and sacramentes/ wherof the vertues be caused by goddes ordynaunce thorow his holy wordes, whereof the profyte is lymyted and porcyoned after such rate and degrees, [tiv] as is to no man full & perfitely knowen but onely to god that gyueth it. And thus answere I Tyndale to these questyones. He asketh farther from whence ys oyle commeth, and wherof yt is made: what is yt any more to ye mater, then from whens the water is fet ys is put in to the fonte, or of what grapes ys wyne was made ys Cryst at his maundye turned into his blood. Now where he asketh me why the byshope selleth it vnto the curates wherewith they anoynt ys sycke: thereto I saye that the byshoppe sendeth yt to the curates, bycause they shold therwith anoynte ys sycke in the sacrament of anoylyng. But why he selleth yt to the curates yf he so dyd: therof can I not tell the cause/ but yf yt were peraduenture bycause he wold be payed therfore. But I can tell well yt the byshop selleth it not to curates nor no man ellis, but ys curatis haue it sent them fre, but if they reward ys brynger of theyr courtesy with a grote, which brynger is yet ys archidecons seruaunt, & not ye byshops. And this I can tell for I haue inquyred for ys nonys. And by this can I tcll as well yt Tindale here bylyeth the byshope shamfully for the nonys. Tyndale. And when he affyrmeth that I saye how the oylynge and shauyng is no parte of the presthed: that improueth he not nor can do, and therfore I saye yt yet. More. It is very truth that I improue hym not in that poynt/ but am well content that he saye yt yet, and I wyll saye the same. But I improue that he sayth euery Crysten man and euery woman to, is as veryly a preste as these that at the recepte of that holy order are both anoyn- ted and shauen. This is yt that I improue/ and this is yt that is a starke heresye though Tyndale saye yt yet. Tyndale. When he enserched the vtte,most that he can: this is all that he can lay agaynst me/ that,f an hundred there be not tenne that haue the propertees which Paule requyreth to he in them. Wherfore yf oylynge and shauynge be no parteof theyr preesthed: then euer more of a thousande.ix. hundred at the leste sholde be no prestes at all. And quoth your frende wolde confyrme yt wyth an othe and swere depely that yt wolde folowe, and that it muste nedys so be. whych argument yet yf there were none other shyfte/ I wolde solue afte, an Oxforde fashyon wyth concedo consequentiam & consequens. More. Tyndale here maketh a tale, as though yt were a dyaloge or rather a tryaloge, bytwene hym selfe, the messenger, and me/ sayenge that I in my dialoge dyd alledge, that yf oylynge and shauynge were no parte oftheyr presthed / then [ti] of a thousande prestes nyne hon- dred at the leste were no prestes at all, for lakke that of an hundred prestes, there be not tenne that haue the propertes that saynt Paule requyreth to be in them. And he sayth the messenger wolde aflerme yt wyth a great othe/ and that hym selfe wolde yf there were none other shyfte, soyle yt after an Oxforde fashyon, wyth <2concedo conse->2 <2quentiam & consequens.>2 Wherin he meaneth that syth he sheweth none other shyft, he graunted both twayne for trew/ that is to wytte that excepte oylynge and shauynge be parte of the prestehed, ellys yt muste nedys folow that of a thousande prestes nyne hundred be none at all for lakke of good condycyons. And also he graunteth not onely that of reason yt wolde so folow/ but also that yt is trew in dede, that for as so myche as oylyng and shauyng be not the thynges that maketh them prestes, and good condicyons they lakke/ therfore they be no prestes at all. But for as mych as he sayth that he wyll soyle yt so for lakke of other shyfte/ he shall not nede so to do/ for I wyll fynde hym a nother shyfte my selfe, and a playne contrarye shyfte, and soyle yt wyth <2nego consequentiam & consequens.>2 For where as he graunteth bothe to be trew: I saye that they be bothe false. And where as he maketh as though they were myne owne wordes and the messengers with me: in good fayth I neyther remember them nor fynde them, all be yt that I haue purposely loked for them in all such places of my dyaloge, as me thought yt shold be yf yt were there at all. And therefore leuynge ys poynt in questyone betwene vs, tyll I come to replye to his answere made vnto my dialoge / at whyche tyme I shall rede yt ouer of necessyte and muste nedes fynd yt yf yt be therin: I wyll in ys meane whyle not let if I sayed yt my selfe, to say that I sayd wronge. For by oddes grace neuer wyll I wyttyngly whyle I lyue defende the thynge that my selge shall thynke vntrew, though yt hadde happed me to saye yt my selfe/ but that I shall well and playnely reuoke yt and call yt bakke, not dissymulyng myn owne ouer syght. And wold god Tyndale wolde do the lyke & Luther to/ they sholde then neyther so styffely defende so shamelesse heresyes as they do, nor make so shamelesse gloses of theyr owne formare wordes, when they se them so reproued that they can in no wise defende them / nor so shamefully chaung from worse to worse, as Luther hath agaynste his owne conscyence done in some one mater thryes. [tiv] To the mater I saye therfore, that yt is false that yf oylynge and shauynge be no parte of the presthed, then it must folow that of a thousande there be.ix. hundred no preestys at all. For I say that oylynge and shauyng be no parte of ys presthed in dede/ but be holy ceremonyes vsed about the consecracyon/ lykewyse as in matrymony and baptysme both, be dyuerse holy ceremonyes vsed that be not the essencyall poyntes of those sacramentes. And therfore is yt false that yf oylynge and shauynge be no parte of the presthed, ys prest is no preste for lakke of prestely vertues. For the holy sacrament of order is gyuen hym by the imposycyon of the bysshoppes handes vppon hym, in such wyse as the chyrche of Cryste vseth and euer hath vsed synnys the deth of Cryste vnto these dayes. And that the grace by god appoynted vnto holy orders is geuen wyth that puttyng vppon of the handes/ is twyes declared by saynt Paule in his pystles to Tymothe / & that so playnely that yt greueth Tyndales herte to here thereof, and maketh hym to make a mokke thereat, and saye it was but lyke as a man layeth his hande on a boyes hed when he calleth hym good sonne. But the place is for all that so playne / that when Tyndale so playeth therwyth and so lawgheth thereat: he lawgheth but from the lyppes forwarde, and gyrneth as a dog doth when one porreth hym in the teeth wyth a stykke. And thus haue I proued t sequency to be false, which Tyndale graunteth for trew. Now to that other parte, that is to wyt the consequente whych he graunteth for trew also, I saye ys yt is false also. for lyke wyse as he graunteth that a preste is no preste at all for lakke of prestely condycyons: so myght he saye as well that a crysten man is not crystyned at all, for lakke of crysten condycyons. And bycause Tyndale wyll haue a preste nothyng but an offycer: yet after his owne false and fonde fashyon he sholde not graunte yt for trew. For then muste he saye that euery euyll offycer, mayre, baylye, constable, or shyryffe yf he mysse vse hym self in his offyce, were forthwyth out of offyce. And thus ye se that the consequente is false, whyche Tyndale also graunteth to be tre But all this bysenesse maketh he for hatered and dyspyte that he bereth to presthed, and to the dyuyne seruice that the prestes say, wherof hym self sayth none at all / & for the ma[ti]lyce that he bereth to the masse whych hym self neuer sayth/ and vnto the holy sacramentes which the prestes minystreth, and whych Tyndale vtterly stryueth to destroye. Agaynste Tyndales translatynge of <2charitas>2 in to loue rather then into cheryte. HERE maketh Tyndale a grete processe / and telleth vs that cheryte hath in englysshe speche dyuers sygnyfycacyons, somtyme loue, somtyme mercy, somtime pacyence. And what is all this to purpose? Sholde he therfore leue out cheryte where it may conueni- ently stande? By thys wyse reason we sholde neuer vse the worde in one sygnyfycacyon nor other/ leste tlie tone sholde be taken for the tother. Now it lyketh hym to forgete that the cyrcumstaunces take awaye the dowte / whych thyng syth he layeth so often for hys excuse, he muste be content yt it also serue for hys charge. For syth thys word loue that he setteth in the stede of cheryte, hath of hym selfe some dowte also, whyther it meane good or euyll but yf ys cyrcumstaunce sum- what set it out: what nede was it to put the indyfferent worde loue in the place of the vndowted good worde cheryte, there as ys sentence well shewed that it sygnifyed neyther mercy nor pacyence but loue/ and then the worde sygnyfyed that it ment good loue whych is expressed by cheryte. Then sheweth he that the greke worde <2agape>2 standeth so somtyme, that he muste nedys interprete it loue and not cheryte/ as though I had founde a fawte wyth hym bycause he vsed thys Worde loue in suche places as thys worde cheryte myght not conuenyently stande/ where I fynde ye faute in this yt he putteth out cherite where it myght well stand, and that so often that he semeth to myslyke the name of cheryte. Now bycause I saye that euery loue is not cheryte, but onely suche loue as is good and ordynate: Tyndale answereth me, no more is euery fayth Crystes fayth. That wote we well inough/ but yet put by it selfe it comenly sygnyfyeth Crystes fayth in mater of the fayth/ so that when we meane a false fayth, we be fayne alwaye to set some other worde [tiv] therwyth, as when we say Tyndales fayth, Luthers fayth, frere Huyskyns fayth and such other lyke. He putteth a nother ensample by thys worde hope, and sayth that euery hope is not a Crysten hope / and yet he must vse it & a thousande other wordes lyke, such as ben indyfferent and sygnyfye bothe good and bad/ all whyche yf he sholde eschewe, he sholde he sayth translate no thynge at all. Who byddeth hym leue all such wordes out? or who saith that he sholde neuer put in thys worde loue? He answereth the thynge that no man layeth to hys charge/ and the thyng that I laye to hys charge he leueth euer vnanswered. For go me to hys worde hope whyche is indyflerent, and sygnyfyeth as well hope of getynge the loue of hys lemman, as hope of rewarde in heuen for cheryte borne to hys enemy/ though thys be thus, yet yf there were in englysshe a worde that sygnyfyeth none hope but a good godly hope, as cheryte sygnyfyeth no loue but a good godly loue/ then were he an euyll translatour, that where ys place in greke or latyn speketh of good hope, wolde not translate it in to that englysshe worde that sygnyfyed none other hope but good. And therfore it well appereth that Tyndale doeth not well, when there as ys scrypture speketh of good loue, he had leuer translate it by the worde loue, ys is indyfferent to bothe good & bad/ then by the worde cheryte ys sygnyfyeth no loue but good. Thys is it that I  charge hym wyth, & to thys I wold haue hym answere onys/ and not leuynge thys vntowched, walke and wander at large & neuer mete wyth the mater. Tyndale. Yet sayth he farther: Agape and charitas were wordes vsed amonge hethen men ere Cryste cam, and sygnyfyed therfore more then a godly loue. And we may say well ynow, and I haue herde yt sp, / that the turkes be charitable one to a nother amonge them selfes, and some of them vnto crysten men. Bysydes all this agape is comen to all loues. More. Yet he is in hande agayne wyth <2agape>2 often and bryngeth not forthe one wyse worde. For though thys greke worde <2agape>2 sygnyfye loue indyfferentely good and bad: yet thys worde charyte sygnyfyeth no loue but good. And therfore in such places of scrypture, as <2agape>2 sygnifyeth good loue: why sholde Tindale translatyng in to englysh, rather take this worde loue that sygnyfyeth no more good loue then badde/ rather than this worde charyte that sygnyfyeth [ti] no loue but good. This I aske hym yet agayne. Now though this laten worde <2charitas>2 was a worde vsed amonge the hethen ere Cryste cam/ & though yt had sygnyfyed in laten at that tyme amonge them an euyll loue and a noughty: yet this englyshe word charyte neuer sygnyfyed amonge vs any other loue then good/ not euen in that speche that Tyndale speketh of, that turkes be charytable among them selfe, & some of them to crysten people to/ where yt sygnyfyeth yet rather pytye then loue. And therfore I yndale muste in hys englysshe translacyon take hys englysshe wordes as they sygnyfye in englyshe, rather then as the wordes sygnyfye in the tonge, out of whyche they were taken in to the englysshe. And yet remember I not that <2charitas>2 in the latyne tonge was vsed to sygnyfye euyll loue. And I saye to Tyndale yet ferther, that though thys englysshe worde cheryte had ben englysshe before the byrthe of Cryste, and had then sygnyfyed amonge englysshe infydelys an euyll wanton loue / ye though it had then amonge them sygnyfyed none other loue but noughty: yet syth it sygnyfyeth not that but the contrary now in our tyme, and so hath sygnyfyed longe before our dayes / Tyndale muste nedys in hys englysshe translacyon vse hys englysshe wordes in suche sygnyfycacyon as the people vseth them in hys owne tyme/ and not in such sygnyfy- cacyon as they were vsed in of olde tyme, which the people haue chaunged and forgoten hundrethes of yerys ere he were borne. For ellys he sholde make a gaye confusyon, yf he wolde in the maters of vertue and crysten fayth vse the olde wordes after the olde fasshyon/ and take <2fides>2 for nothynge but suche as it sygnyfyed ere Cryste came. Then where so euer he founde in saynte Austyne and other holy doctours <2Persona Patris, Persona filej, Persona sPiritus sancti.>2 Tyndale muste call them not the persons but the visours ofthe father, the sonne, and the holy ghost/ & make men wene yt they dawnce in a maske. And thus yet agayne ye se to how lytle purpose this reason serueth Tyndale, that <2agaPe>2 and <2charitas>2 were wordes vsed amonge the hethen ere Cryste was borne. Tyndale. Fynally I saye not cheryte god or cheryte your neyghbour, but loue god and loue your neyghbour. More. This is a prety poynt of iuglynge/ by whyche he wolde [tiv] make the reader loke a syde yt hym selfe myght playe a false caste the whyle / and men sholde not se wherin the questyon standeth. For he maketh as though I reproued that he hath this worde loue in his translacion in any place at all, where I neyther so sayed nor so thought. But the faute I founde, as in my dialoge I sayed playnely inough/ was that he rather chose to vse thys worde loue then thys worde cheryte, in such places as he myghte well haue vsed thys word cheryte/ and where the latyn texte was <2charitas,>2 and where thys holy word cheryte was more proper for the mater then thys indyfferent worde loue. Thys was the fawte that I found. And therfore wherof serueth hys tryflyng betwene ys nowne and the verbe. I let hym not to say loue thy neyghbour/ nor I bydde hym not say cheryte thy neyghbour, nor good affeccyon thy neyghbour, nor good mynde thy neyghbour, no more then drynke thy neyghbour. And yet as he maye saye there geue thy neyghbour drynke/ so may he if it please hym saye, bere thy neyghbour good mynde, bere thy neyghbour charyte. Tyndale. Though we saye a man ought to loue his neyghbours wyte or neyghbours doughter: a cristen man doth not vnderstande that he is commaunded to defyle his neyghhours wyfe nor his neyghbours doughter. More. This mater is somewhat amended here by this worde, ought to loue. But ellys if Tyndale fall not to ys cherytyng, but to the louynge of his neyghbours wyfe, or the louynge of his neyghbours doughter: I had as leue he bare them both a bare cheryte, as wyth the frayle feminyne sexe fall to far in loue, namely syth he saytll that piestes muste nedes haue wyfes. But whereof serueth hym this ensample. Dyd any man forbede hym to vse this worde loue. He maketh as though I forbode ys worde vtterly/ bycause I forbede yt hym where he sholde not vse yt but charyte. Thus cryeth he out vppon all the chyrche/ & sayth they forbede all matrymony, bycause they forbede the banys bytwene frerys and nonnes. Agaynste Tyndales translatynge fauour in stede of grace. (vi] Tyndale. And wyth lyke reasons rageth he, bycause I torne charis into fauour and not in to grace/ sayenge that euery fauour is not grace, and that in some fauour there is but lytle grace. I can sav also ln some grace there is lytle goodnesse/ as when we say he standeth well in my ladyes grace, we vnderstande no greate godly fauoure / and in vnyuersitees there be many vngracyouse graces goten. More. Thys ys all that he sayeth for hys puttynge out of grace and settynge in of fauour. And I praye you consyder what cause hath he now shewede why he so sholde do. And yet his tytell of this chapiter is, why fauour & not grace, as though he wolde tell you why. And hath he now shewed you any cause at all/ but thynketh that hys proper scoffynge is suffycyent to chaung ys knowen holy namys of vertue thorow all scrypture, in to suche wordes as hym selfe lyketh. And now he pleaseth hym self wonderfully well, bycause he hath founde out so fetely that prety scoffe that grace sygnyfyeth somtyme no good/ as when a man standeth well in his ladyes grace. But he seeth well that I fynde wyth hym the faute, for chaungynge grace into fauour, where ys scrypture speketh not of the grace of my lady but of the grace of our lorde. In spekynge wherof all be it that goddys fauour is neuer but good: yet is in respecte vnto hys creature hys grace and his fauour not alwaye one/ but he both fauoreth for his grace, and gyueth grace for his fauour, & fauoreth for his mercy/ and yet his fauour and his mercy not bothe one, in respecte I saye to his creatures, though hys owne nature be so entyere and hole, that all that euer is in hym is all one. And yet where he putteth his ensample of standyng in his ladyes grace / bycause yt is yet but indyfferent, for ys maye be good inough: he sholde haue made then, sample by lewde Luther & his lewd ladyes grace. And when he sayeth that in the vnyuersyte many vngracyouse graces be goten: he sholde haue made it more playne and better perceyued, yf he had sayed, as for ensample when hys owne grace was there graunted to be made mayster of arte. And thus gracyously hath he quytte hym selfe in puttynge out of grace. Agaynste Tyndales Chaungynge of confessyon into knowlege, & penauns into repentauns. [viv] Tyndale. AND that I vse thys worde knowlege and not confessyon, and thys worde repentaunce and not penaunce: in which all he can not proue that I gyue not the ryght englysshe vnto the greke worde. More. Thys is playne vntrew that Tyndale sayth, as I haue playnely shewed all redy in the wordes chyrche, preste, cheryte, and grace/ all whyche chapyters who so rede and consyder from the begynnynge, and aduyse well Tyndales wordes and myne, be he lerned be he not lerned that readeth them, yf he haue naturall wyt and be but in- dyfferent/ he shall (I dowte not) fynde Tindale in these poyntes so clerely confounded, that he shall truste bothe hys lernyng thelesse and his wyt ys worse whyle he leueth after. Besydes that he shall perceyue also malyce, hatered, and enuy, so stuffed in Tyndales harte/ that all though he had greate wyt and lernyng bothe, yet must the myste of suche blynde affeccyons nedys blyndefelde them bothe. Tyndale. But yt is a farre other thyng that payneth them and byteth them by the brestis. There be secrete panges that pinche the very hertes of them, wherof they dare not complayne. The sykenesse that maketh them so impacyent is, that they haue loste theyr iuglynge termes. For the doctours preachers, were wont to make many diuisyons, distinc- cyons, and sortis of grace, gratis data, gratum faciens, pr@ueniens, & subsequens. More. Nay god be thanked they haue not lost these termys yet, and god forbede they sholde. For these termys of grace be no englysh termys/ but termys necessarye for the trewe knowledge of goddys gyftes & graces. But Tyndale hath in dede loste them/ from whose harte the deuyll hath iugled all grace, saue <2gratia gratis data,>2 and yet that to almoste/ wyth whyche <2gratia gratis data>2 all had he therof myche more then he hath, he myghte go forth as he goth ys strayght way downe to the deuyll. For those be graces and gyftes as god gyueth a man, wherof he maye make a mater of vertue or a mater of vyce as hym lyst to vse them/ and abusyng them to vyce, the man is mych the worse for them as bewty, strength, lernynge, or wyt. <2Gratia gratum>2 <2faciens,>2 is that grace by whych the man is acceptable to god. As the grace gyuen in ys baptisme [vi] though it be to chyldren, and the grace with which in fayth, hope, and cheryte, man worketh good workes, watche, fast, pray, gyue allmose, and suche other lyke as god rewardeth in heuyn. Now for as myche as man can do no good but yf god begyn, and he is alwaye redy to begynne: therfore the grace wyth whyche god begyn- neth to set vs a worke, is called <2gratia Pr@->2 <2ueniens.>2 And for as mych as we shold sone ceace to, but yf grace contynued wyth vs/ as our eye sholde ceace to se, yf that we lakked lyghte: god contynueth his grace with vs to worke wyth vs, whych is called <2gratia>2 <2cooperans.>2 And yet for as mych as he that well worketh wyth grace, deserueth of god by goddys goodnesse encreace of grace accordynge to the gospell, <2omni habenti dabitur &>2 <2abundabit,>2 to euery man that hath there shall be gyuen, and he shall habounde that well bestoweth his talentes of grace and worketh well therwith: therfore the grace that god gyueth a man for the good vse of hys formar grace, may be called <2gratia sub->2 <2sequens.>2 And lynally for as mych as grace perceueryng with man at hys ende, bryngeth hym to glory/ whyche who so attayneth is then in suretye of stedefaste and vnperysshable race and fauour of god: this fynall grace is called <2gratia consummans,>2 that ls grace that perfyteth the thynge. Now syth euery man perceyueth well, that all be it that in god all is one grace, with whych he preuenteth our good workes, and wyth whyche he helpeth them forth in the progresse, and whych addeth and maketh more habounde, and wyth whyche he perfyteth hys creature in glory: yet syth ys in vs and our workes it is dyuersely consydered after dyuerse respectys / and of eueryche of those respectys falleth necessyte for men in scoles oftentymes to speke/ specyally for the reprofe of those heretykes that wolde haue no dyuysyons nor dystynccyons, wherby the thynge sholde be made open and playne, but wolde blynde and begyle theyr herers wyth darkenesse and confusyon: reason requyreth to gyue euery dyuerS respecte a dyuers name, amonge them yt must often speke thereof/ except that they sholde in an argument at euery thyrde worde repete an hole tale, where one worde agreed vppon may well and suf- fycyently serue. And therfore ye may se that these be no iuglynge termys, but termes deuysed wyth good reason and of necessyte. But surely the false subtyle iugler the deuyll/ hath taught these yonge iuglers hys scolers, Luther, Huskyn, and Tyndale, [viv] to fall to such false iuglynge: that they labour sore to iugle awaye, not onely those termys of grace and the very name of grace out of mennys earys/ but also the bylefe of all grace, and therwith the effecte of all grace clene out of mennys hertes / and frewyll and grace taken away, to make men byleue that there is nothynge at all but desteny/ and so lybertye, they put all in thraldome/ and pretendyng vertue, tshey dryue men to vyce/ and pretendynge god, they dryue men to the deuyll. And thys is Tyndales iuglynge/ whych bycause he wolde not were perceyued: to dyssemble hys false iugelyng and haue it taken for trouth, he calleth the playne truth by the name of iuglynge, as ye shall here by and by. Tyndale. Wyth confessyon they iugled, and made the people as ofte as they spake of yt, vhderstande shrifte in the eare, wherof the scrypture maketh no mencyon. No, yt is clene agaynste the scrypture as they vse yt & preache yt/ and vnto god an abominacyon and a foule stynkyng sacrifyce vnto the fylthy idole priapus. More. This hygh godly spirituall man taketh for none abominacion at all, but can abyde well and hold very well with all, & not defende yt onely but commende yt also / that a nonne consecrate vnto god, shold runne out of relygyon, and do foule stynkyng sacrifyce to that fylthy idole of Priapus, that frere Luther bereth about to gather in his offerynge wyth/ & that they shall both, and a great many such rebaudes mo/ shamefully shew theyr abomynable bychery, to the corrupcyon of the worlde openly. But he can not abyde in no wise that any man sholde so repent his secrete synne, that he sholde vnto his confessour shew yt secretely. This can Tyndale in no wyse abyde. And why? For he wolde rather haue synne shewed in shamelesse bostynge, whereby it myght encreace and grow/ then shamefastely hewed in confessyon, where it myght be weeded out and caste away. I purpose not here to fall in dyspycyons wyth Tyndale for ys mater/ nor at euery lewd felowes blasphemy/ to bryng the blessed sacramentes in questyon. For syth Tyndale can not hym self denye, but that saynt Austayne, saynt Hierom, saynt Ambrose, saynte Gregory, saynt Cypriane, and other holy sayntes haue both vsed, allowed, com- mended, and taken confessyon for a necessary parte of penaunce/ & euery good man hath in hym selfe euer founden no lytle spyrytuall profyte and soule comfort therin: yt shall not now greatly force [vi what a new founden sorte of heretykes barke & baule therat. And as for this worde knowlege is very farre from the greke word <2exomologesis/>2 & as farre from the latine word <2confessio/>2 and yet mych more from the very mater selfe, that is to wyt from the sacrament of penaunce. For bothe the greke worde and the latine, do sygnifye an openyng and a shewyng of ye thyng/ and ye mater selfe meaneth a willyngly offered declaracyon of ys secrete hyd synne / and this englyshe word knowlege is ambyguouse & doutefull. For as yt is a nowne/ yt sygnifyeth but the knowynge of a thynge or vnderstandyng/ as where a man sayth, this chyld hath yet no knowlege neyther o good nor euyll. And when yt is a verbe, or that yt is turned in to thi worde knowlegynge/ yet sygnyfyeth yt rather the not denyenge the the wyllyngely tellynge of oure owne faute, and namely of our owne offer. For that nowne knowlegynge and that verbe knowlege/ hath in our tonge theyr proper place, where the faute is by some other layed vnto a mannys charge/ and where this laten worde <2agnosco>2 o <2agnitio>2 maye stande in the place yf they talked in latyne. As where we say of a stuberne bodye that standeth styll in the denyenge of his fawte that is layed afore his face/ this man wyll not knolege his faute, or he wyll not be a knowen of his faute. And therfore is this word knowlege or knowlegyng not very mete nor very proper neyther for the greke worde nor the latyne: and leste of all for the mater/ syt that confessynge and confessyon is the wyllyngly made declaracyo of our synne vnlayed vnto vs by any man saue our selfe. In whych doenge though the penytente vse amonge wyth his confessour this word knowlegynge: yet is yt rather his wyllyng behauour that serueth the mater, then the propertye of that englyshe worde. Now yf Tyndale wyll tell vs that confessyon and confessynge is drawne out of the laten, and then wyll aske me what englyshe word had we for the thynge byfore: I wene we had byfore none at all/ but euer synnes the proper englyshe worde hathe bene shryfte and shryuyng. For sauyng that the goodnesse of god brought in that thynge wyth hys holy sacrament of penaunce, whyche was brought in by the latynes: men were I wene farre of from confessynge of they fautes them selfe of theyr owne offer/ and scantly wolde knowleg them when they were layed vnto theyr charge & proued to they face. Onely god hathe brought in wyth the [viv] grace of the sacra- ment, that men are so supled and made humble in herte, that they wy11 wyllyngly go shewe them selfe theyr owne synnes to the preste, whom god hath there appoynted in hys stede/ and there abyde the shame and the rebuke therof, and lowly submytte them selfe to such payne and penaunce as theyr confessour shall assygne them, and ys same faythfully fulfyll in punysshement of them selfe for theyr synne. But thys is it that Tyndale meaneth/ he wolde haue all wyllynge confessyon quyte caste awaye, and all penaunce doynge to, as hym selfe sheweth by and by. Tyndale. And in lyke maner by this wo,de penaunce, they make the people vnderstand holy dedes of theyr enioyny,ge, with whiche they muste make satisfaccyon to godwarde for theyr synnes: when all the scrypture precheth that Cryste hath made full satysfacyon for our synnes. More. Thys is a greate synne lo, that euer any man shold take payne for his synne. Now though ye scrypture precheth that Cryste hath made full satysfacyon for our synnes: yet wold I fayne that Tyndale sholde tell me where he fyndeth any one place in scrypture, ys Crystes satysfaccyon for our synnes is in such wyse full, that he wyll there be no payne put vnto vs therfore. Let vs consyder hys owne wordes ys folowe. Tyndale. And we muste now be thankefull to god agayne, and kyll the lustes of our flesh with holy workes of goddes enioynynge, and to take pacyently all that god layeth on my bakke. More. Thys is well and holyly spoken. But now let passe for thys ones holy Luther and hys holy nonne wyth all theyr holy workes that they worke togythr, in kyllynge ye lustes of theyr flesshe, in shewyng them selfe thankefull agayne to god. I wyll aske Tyndale fyrste, whyther suche holy workes as god hath taught hys chyrche to be enioyned vnto hym by hys goostly father/ be not enioyned vnto hym by god. If not, he taketh awaye all the commaundementes of father and mother, prelate & prynce, that commaundeth any good thyng to be done to goddys honour/ vnto all whych persons in all suche commaundementes, god commaundeth Tyndale and euery man ellys to be obedyent, and accompteth theyr com [Vi]maundementes for hys owne. Yet yf Tyndale wyll no payne enioyned but by goddes owne mouth/ nor suffer nothynge layed vppon hys bakke but yf god trusse vp the pakke hym selfe and wyth his owne handes, & bynde it vppon hys bakke wyth a paksadle: then wyll I yet wyt of Tindale whyther god do not enioyne any such holy workes, or laye any such burden vppon ys bakkes of repentant synners for the synnes that be passed, & wherof he is all redy repentaunt. If Tyndale answere no: then shall we put hym in remembraunce of many places in holy scrypture/ as well in Exodi, where he pro- myseth to punysshe the people for theyr idolatry notwythstandynge theyr repentaunce and hys remyssyon to/ as in the seconde boke of kynges, where he punysshed kynge Dauyd for hys manslawghter and aduowtry not- wythstandynge hys repentaunce/ & many places besyde. Now yf he graunte that god punyssheth the synne not wyth- standynge the repentaunce of the penytent, and the remyssyon of his dyspleasure: then graunteth he and so must he graunte, ys all be it one droppe of Crystes precyouse blode had ben suffycyent to satysfye for all the synnys of this whole worlde/ and for all the payne also that were in any wyse dew to the same: yet hath it not pleased hym so to order it. But leste that such shorte for- gyuenes as well of all ys payne as of the dyspleasure of god, & of the dedelynesse, or as men myghte saye of the damnabylyte belongynge to the mortall offence/ myghte make men waxe the worse, and set mych the lesse by synne: he forgyueth at the repentynge and by the shryfte and absolucyon his hygh indygnacyon, wheruppon foloweth ys perpetuall banysshement from the syghte of his face, and fruycyon of hys glorye into theternall turment of helle/ but he leueth ordynaryly some tem- porall payne to be sustayned for the euyll acte passed/ and that to be suffered eyther here by good workes of penaunce doyng, or other satysfactory paynes or good workes eyther in this world here or afte thys worlde in purgatory/ but yf they be by other folkys good dedys done for them thorow goddys goodnes releued. And thys I saye as by good authorytees appereth our lorde doeth ordynaryly / not for- barrynge hys absolute mercyfull power, wherby he maye do when he wyll what he wyll. Now yf Tryndale graunte as he nedys muste, that not [viv] wyth- standynge the repentaunce and the remyssyon both / & Crystes satysfaccyon also for theternalyte of the payne, and full restytucyon to goddes fauoure/ yet there remayneth a temporall payne, or by good holy workes other satysfaccyon for the same: then is it not agaynste all scripture (as Tyndale sayth yt is) nor agaynst any parte therof neyther, that men shall vvyth penaunce doynge endeuour them seffto satysfye for that payne/ syth yt is not goddes ordynary pleasure that his passyon shall serue euery man for the satysfaccyon of that payne, bycause yt accordeth not wyth his ordynary iustyce/ leste the fere of all payne vtterly taken awaye, men were lykely to make lytle force how boldely they fall to synne. And then yf yt be well done that a man for his synne, willyngly punyshe hym selfe: why maye he not mekely submyt his wyll to the counsale of his confessour, and take penaunce at his hande. Tyndale. And yf I haue hurte my neyghbour, I am bounde to shryue my self vnto hym, and make hym amendes yf I haue wherewyth/ or yf not, then to aske hym forgyuenesse/ and heis bounde to fnrgyue me. As for theyr penaunce the scrypture knoweth not of. More. He neuer bryngeth in a good worde but for an euyll purpose. He sayth here very well concernynge our duty toward our neyghbours. But he saythe malycyousely to make vs wythdraw our dutye towarde god, for the satysfaccyon of the temporall payne that is dew for our synne, after the restytucyon to goddes fauour, and theternalyte of the payne forgyuen. And that payne god hath not ordeyned of comen course to be satysfyed, by the onely merytes of Crystes passyon/ but vf mennys workes wrought with his grace be added therunto. Tyndale. As for theyr penaunce, the scrypture knoweth not. The g,eke hath metanoia and metanoite, repentaunce and repente,or forthynkyng and forthynk/ as we saye in englyshe, yt forthynketh me or I for- thynke, and I repent or yt repenteth me, and I am sory that I dyd. More. Tyndale here bereth vs in hande that the scrypture speketh not of penaunce/ bycause hym selfe geueth the greke worde a nother englyshe name. And bycause that Tyndale [xi] calleth yt for- thynkynge and repentaunce: therfore all englyshe men haue euer hetherto, myssused theyr own langage in callynge the thynge by the name of penaunce. Now as for the worde penaunce what so euer the greke worde be: yt euer was and yet yt is lawfull inough (so that Tyndale geue vs leue) to call any thynge in englyshe by what worde so euer englysh men by comen custume agre vppon. And therfore to make a chaung of the englyshe worde, as though ys all Englande shold go to scole wyth Tyndale to lerne englyshe/ is a very frantyque foly. But now the mather standeth not therin at all. For Tyndale is not angry wyth the worde but bycause of the mater. For this greueth Luther & hym/ that by penaunce we vndrestande when we speke therof so many good thynges therin/ & not a bare repentyng or for- thynkyng onely, but also euery parte of the sacrament of penaunce, confessyon of mouthe, contrycyon of herte, and satysfaccyon by good dedis. For yf we called it but the sacrament of repentaunce, and by that worde wolde vnderstande as mych good therby as we now do by the worde penaunce: Tyndale wold be than as angry wyth repent, aunce as he is now wyth penaunce. For he hateth nothyng but to here yt men shold do any good. We haue for our pore englysshe worde penaunce, the vse of all englysshe men syth penaunce fyrste beganne amonge them. And that is authoryte inough for an englysshe word/ excepte Tyndale wyll bynde vs to fetche authoryte of reason for euery worde of euery langage, out of Albert <2de modis significandi/>2 bycause that frere Luther, frere Huyskyn, and frere Lamberte, haue so sore set theyr study vppon Alberte <2de secretis mulierum.>2 And yet yf he wyll nedys prece vppon vs therewyth: we maye saye that we take in penaunce of the latyne Worde <2Penitentia,>2 whyche the chyrche vseth for the same sacrament/ or we maye saye that the worde penaunce is deryued and commeth of the worde payne, whyche bothe in harte, in worde, and in dede, the penytent sholde indeuour hym selfe to conceyue and sustayne for his synne. But this is it that Tyndale so sore doth abhorre. For he con- sequentely sayth. Tyndale. So now the scrypture sayth repentor let yt forthynke you and byleue the gospell or glad tydynges that is broughte you in Cryst/ and so shall all be forgyuen you and hensforth lyue a new lyfe. More. [xiv] Here semeth a godly thynge, and is in dede very deuelysshe. For the wordes that be spoken to the hethen to come to crystendome/ in thentre wherof at baptysme they be new regendred to god, and clensed clene & purged from all spottes: these wordes Tyndale to them that be crystened all redy, & kepe theyr bylefe styll, and yet fall into dedely synne agayne. For whose reconcylyacyon agayne to god, our lorde hath of hys goodnesse instytuted the sacra- ment of penaunce / wythout whyche they ys after baptysme fall agayne to synne, do lese the frute of theyr baptysme yf ys tyme serue them to take it. And therfore sayth holy saynt Hierom, that the sacrament of penaunce is the borde vppon whyche a man geteth to londe and saueth hym selfe after the shyppewrake. Whyche wordes of hys, Luther in hys boke of Babilonica sore dysprayseth. For saynt Hierome sheweth that the sacrament of baptysme is the shyppe, and was fygured by the shy of Noe, out of whyche there was no man saued. And when a man breketh the shyppe of hys baptysme in the storme of tentacyon, and falleth into the depe see of synne: then hath he yet hys remedy prouyded by god, yf he catche holde vppon ys borde of the salte sacrament of penaunce & so swymme/ and god wyll helpe whyle he laboreth hym selfe to lande. But Luther and Tyndale wolde haue vs wene that after baptysme there nedeth no more but repent/ and by and by all is gone agayne and clene wasshed awaye, synne & payne eternall and temporall and all togyther/ and ys man in lyke case as when he came fyrste fro the fonte. But who so consyder well the wordes of saynt Poule in the syxte chapyter vnto the Hebrewes, shall fynde it farre vnlyke/ where saynt Paule sayth in thys wyse: It is impossyble that they whyche haue ben ones illumyned, and haue tasted the heuenly gyfte, and haue ben made perteners of ys holy goost, and haue also tasted the good worde of god and the powers of the worlde to come, & then are slyden downe: sholde be renewed agayne by penaunce, crucyfyeng agayne to them self the sonne of god, and hauyng hym in derysyon. Here sheweth thys blessed apostle Poule that the dedely synne commytted after baptysme/ puttcth a man in that case, that it shall be very harde (for so is impossyble som- yme taken in scrypture) by penaunce to be renewed agayne/ that is to wyt to come agayne to baptysme or to the state of bap[xi]tysme, in whyche we be so fully renewed, and the olde synne so fully forgyuen, that we be forthwyth in suche wyse innocentes, that yf we dyed forthwyth, there were neyther eternall payne nor tem- porall payne appointed for vs, that is to wyt neyther helle nor purga- tory. But that dedely synne commytted after baptysme / is very harde by the sacrament of penaunce, confessyon, contrycyon, and greate payne taken to, to brynge vs agayne in the case, that the temporall payne dew therfore in purgatory, shall be worne all out by our penaunce done here. In all whyche thynges we neuer exclude the specyall pryuylege of goddys absolute mercy. For by hys myghty mercy the thynge that is impossyble to man, is not impossyble to god/ as our sauyour sayth in the gospell of Mathewe. But I speke of the ordynary course of hys comen ordynaunce, in whyche is excepted also the prayours and good dedys/ wyth whiche any man is besyde hys owne penaunce holpen and releued wyth the good dedys of other mennys cheryte, or ye spyrytuall treasour of Crystes chyrche towarde the redemynge of hys temporall payne. But ellys I saye by the authoryte of saynt Poule in thys place/ ys it shall be very hard for a man by penaunce wrought in grace, to be restored agayne to the state of baptysme clere from all payne dew for the synne. For syth the sacrament of baptysme whyche regendreth vs and maketh vs new creaturys, doth not so fully apply ys passyon of Cryste for our satysfaccyon, that it so dyschargeth vs from all the payne of synne, but ys we sustayne yet euery man for hym selfe the paynefull twych of bodely deth: we maye well byleue the apostle in thys place, that the payne temporally dew to our actuall synne commytted after baptysme, is iiot so sone worne out and payed by penaunc that it is as saynt Poule sayth, a thynge very harde to do. For the spyrytuall creature whyche baptysme begeteth and createth of new: penaunce fyndynge by synne agayne all to frusshed, plastereth and patcheth vppe and maketh mych worke to cure the wounde and brynge it to a scarre. I coude for my parte be very well content, that synne & payne and all were as shortely gone as Tyndale telleth vs. But I were lothe that he deceyued vs yf it be not so. And therfore to the entent it may the better appere that penaunce is necessary, and that to retourne to god and clene to be for[xiv]gyuen, is not so lyght a thynge as Tyndale maketh it/ but that the chyrche of Cryste appoyntyng payne for the synne, and not a bare forethynkynge or repentaunce as Tyndale wolde haue it, is therein taughte by the holy spyryte of god: let euery man consyder in what wyse the prophete Ioell descrybeth the maner, wyth whyche man sholde retourne to god agayne after synne. The lorde sayth, retourne to me wyth all your harte in fastynge, in wepynge, and wey- lyng. Teare your hertes and not your garmentes, and retourne to your lorde god. For he is benygne and mercyfull, pacyent, and plentuouse of mercy, and redy to forgyue synne. Tyndale. And yt wyll folow yf I repente in the herte/ that I shall do no more so wyllyngly and of purpose. More. In these few wordes there are many doutes. Fyrste how Tyndale taketh repentynge in the harte / whether he meane that who so repenteth in his harte shall no more do so agayne wyllyngly and of purpose, as longe as he so repenteth, or ellys that who so repent onys in his harte, shall neuer ceace to repente/ or though he do, shall neuer yet do more so wyllyngly and of purpose whyle he lyueth. And yf he meane in the fyrste manner, his wordes be lytle to purpose. For She graunte that though he repent at one tym repente at a nother, and then do as euyll as he dyd, and be as euyll as he was: then had I as leue that he sayed ye man whych onys repenteth, wyll do so no more as long as he doth so no more, and wyll be good styll tyll he be nought agayne. Now yf he meane in the secunde manner, that who so repenteth onys in his herte, can neuer after ceace to repente as long as euer he lyueth/ or though he ceace to repent shall yet as longe as euer he lyueth, neuer wyllyngly and of purpose fall to synne agayne: then eyther of all that fall to synne agayne, that is to wyt of all crysten people allmoste, there was neuer none that euer repented in harte/ or ellys who so euer haue onys repented in his harte, all ys synnys that euer he doth after he doth none of them wyllyngly/ or at the leste he doth them not of purpose, but vnwyttyngly by chaunce & myssehappe, ere euer hym selfe beware therof at aduenture sodaynly. Now yf he saye that neuer any whych do synne agayne, dyd hartely repente byfore/ and then that he requyre no lesse [xi] then herty repentaunce of man for his reconcylyacyon to god: he preacheth vs no gospell nor telleth vs no glad tydynges, but the heuyeste tydynges that euer man tolde. For then he telleth vs playne ys of all cristen people there is almost none that standeth in state of grace lenger then the lakke of reason excuseth the defaute of his dede/ or that the lakke of lyfe leueth hym no tyme to synne agayne after his repentaunce. For we playnely se that such as repent fall agayne to synne/ and so by hym they neuer so repented that euer they were reconcyled agayne to god in all theyr hole lyfe. And then were there also mych doute of theyr deth. For though yt be good in some case, yet were yt not good alwaye that euery man were ouer bolde vppon the sodayne grace that ys thefe gate at laste, that honge on the crosse at Crystes ryght hande. And yf Tyndale wene to make the mater more easy, bycause he sayth he that repenteth in harte wyll do so no more, meanynge that he wyll no more fall to that kynde of synne: this wyll not serue hym. For he falleth out of goddes fauour and the state of grace by the commyttyng of any other synne that is vppon his damnacion for- boden. And therfore yf harty repentaunce be able for euer to kepe hym from one kynde/ yt muste be able to kepe hym from euery kynde of lyke dedelynesse, or ellys yt suffyseth not. Now to the tother poynt. If Tyndale thynke to ease all the mater by this that he sayeth not, that he whyche repenteth in harte shall do so no more/ but that he shall do so no more wyllyngly and of pur- pose: then ryseth there a nother doute what he calleth wyllyngly and of purpose. He hath as yt semeth some other vnderstandynge of this worde wyllyngly, then other men haue. We saye that yf he do yt not wyllyngly/ he synneth not at all yf his wyll nothynge do therein at all, except yt depende vpon some other synne of hym selfe done wyllyngly byfore/ as where a man synfully falleth in dronkenesse or in fransye, and then dronken or frantyke doth harme/ or where as one man geueth other occasyon of ruyne, as Tyndale dothe, when men be burned here wyth his bokes, and after damned for his heresyes, such men peraduenture as he neuer knew/ and yet fallen all theyr dethys both of body and soule in Tyndales nekke. For as holy saynte Austayne sayeth/ the heretyke that is a teacher and a setter forth of heresyes, though he be depe damned in hell: shall neuer yet knowe the vttermoste of hys [xiv] payne tyll the daye of dome. For as many men as byfore ys day be damned for his heresyes: shall euer as they come to hell more and more encreace his payne. But ellys I saye, where a man hath no wyll in the dede nor in the occasion therof/ there is he as I thynke no partener in the synne. I wote not what Tyndale meaneth by wyllyngly and of purpose. For he is wonte to reken as though there is nothyng done willyngly ys is done of frayletye/ nor I can not tell what he calleth purpose/ how longe tyme serueth after his rekenyng to make yt done of purpose. But this I wote well, allbe yt that there be degrees & circum- staunces that aggreue the synne & make it more weyghty/ as when yt is in the mynde longe contynued, & done of pure malyce, and such other thynges: yet yf these lakke so the damnable dede ys god hath forboden to be done in dede, by hym that is not agaynste his wyll forced there vnto/ this call we wyllyngly done, & saye that he syn- neth dedely that so doth, all though he neuer purposed him selfe longe byfore vppon yt. As yf a man mete a nother and kyll hym sodenly for an angry worde/ or mete a mayden sodaynly and so deflore her: this wolde I call wyllyngly, but yf she were so stronge or had so mych helpe that she rauyshed the mannis maydenhed, and dyflowred hym by force. Now such thynges as these be, we dowte not but yt folke haue fallen to agayne after repentaunce and after penauns to/ and such as haue ben by the sacrament of penaunce restored vnto the state of grace. And syth that these be damnable, whyther they be byfore purposed or no: therfore yt is partely false partely folysh that Tyndale sayth, that who so repent in herte shall neuer do so more wyllyngly and of purpose / syth he that hathe repented in harte may do so agayne wyllyngly and of purpose to/ & he that dyd yt not of pur- pensed purpose, doth yt yet for all that damnablye yf he do yt wyllyngly. And for conclusyon though yt may be sayed by good men of good mynde in exhortacyon to perseueraunce in good workes, agaynst the lyghtenes of such as fall shortely to synne agayne, that they repente not but mokke, bycause theyr lyghtenes geueth occasyon and coniecture so to thynke and say: yet to put yt for a rule and a surtye as Tyndale dothe, that who so repenteth onys in harte shall neuer synne agayn wyllyngly & of purpose/ & that they that synne agayne wyl[xi]lyngly and of purpose dyd neuer repent in harte, is very false doctryne & a very playne heresye. Tyndale. And yf I beleued the gospell, what god hath done for me;n Criste: I shold surely loue hym agayne, and of loue prepare my selfe vnto his commaundement. More. It is vndowtely a very good occasyon to moue a man to loue god agayne, when he beleueth ys loue that god hath to hym, and the thynges that of very loue god hath done for hym. But yet it is not trew that Tyndale sayth, that euery man whyche byleueth thys loue, doeth so loue god agayne, that of loue he prepareth hym selfe vnto goddys commaundementes. I dare say that saynt Peter loued hym well/ and yet he bothe forsoke hym and forsware hym to. But a man yt well byleued sholde peraduenture prepare hym to goddys commaundementes, yf neyther the worlde, the flesshe, nor ys deuyll drewe hym bakke/ nor suche heretykes worse yet then all thre, pulled the rote of ryght bylefe out of hys harte. And how standen the wordes of Tyndale wyth Luthers holy doctryne, whyche he precheth agaynste the lybertye of mannys fre wyll/ wherof yf man haue none, as theyr heresye techeth:. thenhow can it be trewe that a man can of loue prepare hym selfe to the commaundementes of god? And fynally yf it be trew that Tyndale sayth/ that is to wyt that yf he beleued the gospell he sholde surely prepare hym selfe to the com- maundementes of god/ and then yf thys be trew therwyth as in dede it is, that he that doeth (as Tindale doeth) enfecte hys neyghbours wyth dedely poysened heresyes agaynst the blessed sacramentes, & therby maketh theyr bodyes be burned in erthe wyth hys bokes, and theyr soulys burned in helle wyth hys heresyes, is the most trayterouse dyspyser of goddys commaundementes that can be deuysed: it foloweth very clerely that Tindale byleueth not the gospell at all/ and surely no more he doeth. And now cometh he and sayth, that I knowe that all ys he hath sayed for hys defence in ys chaunge of chyrch, preste, grace, cheryte, penaunce, and suche other is trew: bycause I knewe as he sayth the greke afore hym/ where as I by suche lytle knowledge as I haue of greke, latyn, and of our owne englysshe tonge togyther, knowe hys defence bothe very false and folysshe. And that haue I so clerely proued/ that to the perceyuynge of bothe hys falshed and hys foly, (xiv] there shall not greately nede ys knowlege of thre tonges nor twayne neyther / but an indyfferent reader that vnderstandeth englysshe, and hath in hys hed any reason or naturall wyt. For all be it that the more lernynge the reder hath, the more madnesse he shall perceyue in Tyndales defence of these thynges afore remembred: yet he that hath wyt and no lernyng at all, shall clerely perceyue inough. And to that entent onely haue I taken the labour to answere hys defence, to make it open to lerned and vnlerned bothe, that he bryngeth to the mater after hys two yerys musynge thereuppon, neyther insyghte of any substancyall lernynge, nor yet any profe of reason or naturall wytte, but onely a rasshe malyciouse frantyke brayde, furnysshed with a bare bolde assercyon and affyrmacyon of felse poysoned heresyes. For sauynge to make thys appere/ I neded not to touche those poyntes at all. For euery man well knoweth ys the entent and purpose of my dyaloge was none other, but to make the people perceyue that Tyndale chaunged in his translacyon the comen knowen wordes to thentent to make a chaunge in the fayth. As for ensample that he chaunged the worde chyrche in to thys worde congregacyon, bycause he wolde brynge it in questyon whyche were the chyrche/ and set forth Luthers heresye that the chyrch whyche we sholde byleue and obaye, is not the comen knowen body of all crysten reames remaynynge in the fayth of Cryste, not fallen of nor cut of wyth heresyes/ as Boheme is and some partes of Germany: but that the chyrche whyche we sholde byleue and obay, were some secrete vnknowen sorte of euyll lyuyng and worse byleuyng here- tykes. And that he chaunged preste into senior/ bycause he entended to set forth Luthers heresye techynge that presthed is no sacrament/ but the offyce of a laye man or a laye woman appoynted by the people to preche. And that he chaunged penaunce into repentynge/ bycause he wolde set forth Luthers heresye techyng that penaunce is no sacrament. Lo thys beyng ys onely purpose & entent of my dyaloge: Tyndale cometh now and expressely confesseth the same thynge that I pur- posed to shew. For he techeth & wryteth openly those false heresyes in dede, that I sayed then he entended after to do/ so that hym selfe sheweth now that I dyd then shewe the people trewth/ & then neded I to make none answere, syth hys owne wrytyng sheweth that he made his [xi] translacyon, to the entent to set forth suche heresyes as sayed he dyd. For as for that that Tyndale calleth them none heresyes but the very fayth, forceth me but lytle/ for so hath euery heretyque called his owne heresyes syns crystendome fyrste byganne. But for all that the deuyll wyll be the deuyll though Tyndale wolde call hym god. And I made my boke to good crysten people that know such heresyes for heresyes/ to gyue them warnynge that by scripture of his owne false forgynge (for so is his false translacyon, and not the scrypture of god) he sholde not bygyle them, and make them wene the thynge were otherwyse then yt is in dede. For as for such as are so madde all redy, to take those heresyes for other then heresyes, and are thereby them selfe no faythfull folke but heretyques, yf they lyst not to lerne and leue of, but longe to lye styll in theyr false bylyefe: yt were all in vayne to gyue them warnynge thereof For when theyr wyllys be bent thereto, and theyr hertys set thereon: there wyll no warnynge serue them. And therfore syth Tyndale hath here con- fessed in his defence, ys he made suche chaunges for the settynge forth of suche thynges as I sayed: yt is inough for good cristen men that knowthose thynges for heresyes, to abhorre and burne vppe his bokes and the lykers of them wyth them/ so that as I say I neded none answere to all his defence at all, sauynge to make as I haue done, both lerned and vnlerned folke perceyue hym for an vnlerned fole. And yet defendynge hym self so fondely, and teachyng open h so shamefully: he sayeth yt appereth that there was no cause to burne his translacyon, wherein such chaunges founden as ye se, and beynge chaunged for such causes as hym selfe confesseth/ that is to wyt for a foundacyone of such pestylent heresyes as hym selfe affermeth & wryteth in his abomynable bokes: he myghte mych better yf he cut a mannys throte in the open strete, say there were no cause to hange hym but bydde men seke vppe hys knyfe & se yt hym safe. This myght he in good fayth myche better saye then, then he maye now say that there is no cause to burne his translacyon. Wyth ys falsed wherof and his false heresyes brought in there wythall: he hath kylled and destroyed dyuerse menne, and maye hereafter many, some in body, some in soule, and some in both twayne. And therfore where as in the ende he loketh so mych to [xiv] me, ys he forgeteth hym selfe/ and makyng me a nother holy sermone of my couetousenesse, my great aduauntage in seruyng in falsed, myne te malyce agaynst ys trewth: he forgeteth in the meane whyle ys his owne malyce is agaynst the trewth in such manner obstynate, that he doth as the deuell dothe, endure payne for the mayntenaunce of hys false deuelyshe heresyes agaynste the treuth/ and puttynge me in mynde agayne of the false prophete Balaam and his euyll ende, and that all suche resysters of the trewth come at laste vnto an euyll deth: he forgeteth in ye meane whyle ys double deth that his felowes lleretyques comenly come vnto, fyrst by fyre in erth, and after by fyre in hell/ saue they that at the tone renounce his deuelysh here- syes, & so escape the tother. Tyndale therfore where yt lyketh hym to lyken me to Balaam, Pharao, and to Iudas to, syth the pytthe of all hys pro- cesse standeth in this one poynte, that his heresyes be the trew fayth, and that the catholyque fayth is false/ that the holy dayes nor the fastyng dayes no man nede to kepe/ that the dyuyne seruyces in the chyrche is all but superstycyon/ that the chyrche & the ale howse is all one sauynge for such holy preachyng/ that men haue no fre wyll of theyr owne to do nother good nor yll/ ys to reuerence Crystes crosse or any saynts ymage is idolatry/ that to do any good worke, faste, geue almysse, or other, with entent the rather to gete heuen, or to be the better rewarded, there is dedely synne afore god & worse then idolatrye/ to thynke ys the masse may do menne any good mo then the preste hym selfe, were a false belyefe/ a false fayth also to pray for any soule/ great synne to shryue vs or to do penaunce for synne/ freres may well wedde nonnes and muste nedes haue wyues/ and the sacramentes of Cryste muste serue for Tyndales iestynge stoke: these be the trewthes that Tyndole preacheth. And bycause I call these trewthes heresyes: therfore Tyndale calleth me Balaam, Iudas, and Pharao/ and threteneth me sore wyth ye vengeaunce of god and wyth an euyll deth. What deth eche man shall dye that hangeth in goddes handes/ and martyrs haue dyed for god, and heretykes haue dyed for the deuyll. But syth I know yt very well and so doth Tyndale to, that ys holy sayntes dede byfore these dayes synnys Cristes tyme tyll our owne, byleued as I do/ that Tyndales trewthes be starke deuelyshe heresyes: yf god gyue me the grace to suffer for sayeng the same/ I shall neuer in my ryght wyt wysh [xi] to dye better. And tlierfore syth all the mater standeth in this poynte alone/ that yf his heresyes be the trew fayth, then I stande in parell/ and yf they be a false fayth, I maye be safe inought: lette hym leue his sermon hardely for the whyle, and fyrste go proue his lyes trewe, and then come agayne and preache, and frere Luther also & his lemman wyth hym to/ and then may the geese prouyde the foxe a pulpette. Here endeth the seconde boke, in whyche is confuted Tyndales defence of his false translacyon of the neW testamente. The thyrde boke, Here after foloweth thr thyrde boke, in whyche be treated two Chapyters of Tyndales boke/ that is to wyt whyther the chyrche were before the gospell, or the gospell before the Chyrch/ & whyther the apostles lefte ought vnwryten, that is of necessyte to be byleurd. Whether the Chyrche were before the gospell, or the gospell before the Chyrche. Tindale hath all thys whyle wyth his defence of chaungynge chyrche and other thynges vsed in the chyrch, malycyously by hym chaunged in his translacyon/ kept vs as it were styll stryuynge wyth hym in the chyrche porche. But now haue I wonne the porche vppon hym/ and we be comen to ioyne togyther wythin the chyrche. For now takynge hys translacyon for damnable as it is/ we be comen to trye bytwene vs the falsed of hys pestylent heresyes concernynge the chyrch and the worde of god, by the spyryt of god taughte vnto hys chyrche/ wyth which heresyes he corrupteth the worde of god, and wyth poysen infecteth hys chyrche/ as I haue before manyfestely declared, bothe concernynge Crystes holy sacramentes and dyuerse other artycles of Crystes fayth. But for as mych as by the dyscourse of my dyaloge, I proued clerely that nothyng can be sure & certayne amonge crysten men, not so mych as the holy scrypture it selfe, but yf we byleue the chyrche/ and I proued also that the chyrch of Cryste can not fall in dampnable errour, but hath ben, is, & euer shall be, taught by the spyryte of god euery necessary trouth to the bylefe wherof god wyll haue them bounden/ and that thys chyrche is and euer hath ben taughte by the worde of god partely wryten and partely vnwryten / and ys those two wordes are bothe of one authoryte / and fynally dyd I proue that the very chyrche of Cryste here in erthe whyche hath the ryght fayth, and whyche we be bounden to [Aiv] byleue and obaye, is thys vnyuersall knowen people of all crysten nacyons, that be neyther put out nor openly departed out by theyr wylfull scysmes and playnly professed heresyes / and that Luthers chyrche & all the chyrches sprong out thereof, wyth all the prophetes and patryarches of the same, as Suinglius, Butzer, Balthasar, Otho, frere Huyskyn, frere Lambert, and Tyndale, be the synagoge of Sathan and ser- uauntes of the deuyll: nowe cometh me Tyndale and perceyuynge hym selfe sore bounden to the stake wyth the strength of thys chayne/ begynneth to wrythe and wrestle and fareth fowle wyth hym selfe, to loke yf he coude breke any lynke therof Where about for as mych as he seeth that all the rable of heretykes haue longe labored of olde/ and yet theyr bokes vanesshed awaye to ys deuyll with them selfe/ and that the deuell hath of theyr dry asshes reysed vp an hundred sortes of new sectes of heretykes, mych more blasphemouse then euer were the olde: he hath ouerloked studyously all theyr bokes/ and wyth all the poysen that the deuyll hath put in them hath stuffed hys mouth full, to spet it out agayne agaynste god and hys holy sacramentes, and all good crysten people whom he laboreth to enfecte with the fury, that they sholde not knowe the very chyrche of god whereof them selfe be membres/ but wolde make them so madde as to byleue that the chyrche of god were some one sorte of an hun- dred sectes of heretykes, & no marke among them all why more the tone then the tother/ where as they muste and do in thys poynte all agree, that they be all false saue one, and the trouth is in dede that they be false euerychone. Now to knowe that the nerer Tyndale cometh to the mater, the forther he fleeth from ys trouth/ and hydeth hym selfe the derke. nesse of the deuyll, walkynge with a sconse of a dymme lyghte to make men wene he wolde shewe them the way, and ledeth them clene awry: ye shall here how boldely he begynneth/ and after shall I so shew you the mater, that euery chylde shall perceyue hys bolde wyly foly to come of no good truste in hys cause, but lakke of wytte and shame. Tyndale. Whyther the chyrche were before the gospell, or the gospell be- fore the Chyrche. [Ai] An other dowte there is, whether the chyrche or congregacyon be before the gospell, or the gospell before the chyrche. Whyche questyon is as harde to solue, as whether the father be elder then the sonne, or the sonne elder then his father. For the hole scrypture and all byleuynge hertes testyfye, that we are begotten thorow the worde. Wherfore yf the worde begette the congregacyon, and he that beget- teth is before hym that is begotten: then is the gospell before the chyrche. paule also Romano. ix. sayth: how shall they call on whom they beleue not. And how shall they byleue without a precher. That is, Cryste must fyrste be preached ere men can byleue in hym. And then it foloweth, that the worde of the preacher muste be before the fayth of the byleuer. And the,fore in as mych as the word is before the fuyth, and fayth maketh the congregacyon: therfore is the worde or gospell before the congregacyon. More. Lo he that redeth this and hereth not thanswere, excepte hym selfe be well ryped in the mater: maye wene that Tyndale in these wordes had quyt hym selfe lyke a man, & borne me ouer quyte/ he solueth the obieccyon so playnely, & playeth therwith so pleasauntely. But now when ye shall vnderstande that neuer man was so madde to make thys obieccyon to Tindale but hym selfe: then shall ye laughe to se that he wresteleth all alone & gyueth hym selfe a fall, and in hys mery solucyon mokketh also no man but hym selfe. I sayed in my dyaloge that the chyrche was before the gospell was wryten, and that the fayth was taught and men were baptysed, and masses sayd and the other sacramentes mynystred amonge crysten people, before any parte of the newe testament was put in wrytynge/ and that this was done by the word of god vnwryten. And I sayed also there, and yet say here agayne / that the ryght fayth whiche Adam had and suche as in the same fayth succeded hym, longe ere wrytynge beganne, was taught by the worde of god vn- wryten/ and so went from man to man, fro the father to ys sonne by mouth. And I sayed that thys worde of god vnwryten/ is of as greate authoryte as is the worde of god wryten. I shewed also that the chyrche of Cryste hath ben, is, and euer shall be, taught and instructed by god and hys holy spyryt wyth hys holy worde of eyther kynde/ that is to wyt bothe wyth hys worde wryten and hys worde vnwryten/ and that they whyche wyll not byleue goddes worde but yf he put it in wrytynge, be as playne infydeles as they yt wyll not byleue it wryten/ syth goddes worde taketh hys authoryte of god that speketh it, and not of man that wryteth it. [Aiv] And there is lyke suertye and lyke certayne know- ledge of the worde of god vnwryten, as there is of the worde of god wryten/ syth ye knowe neyther the tone nor the tother to be the worde of god, but by the tradycyon of the chyrche. Which chyrch as all crysten men byleue, and the scripture sheweth, and saynt Austayne declareth, and Luther hym selfe confess- eth, and the deuyll hym selfe sayeth not nay/ the blessed spyryte of god hath in- wardely taught, teacheth, and euer shall teache, to know, iudge, and dyscerne the worde of god from the worde of man/ and shall kepe the chyrche from errour ledynge in to euery trouthe/ as Cryste sayth hym selfe in the.xvi. chapyter of saynt Iohans gospell. Whych he dyd not yf he suffered the chyrche to be dampnably deceyued in takynge the worde of man for ys word of god/ wherby it sholde in stede of seruyce to be done to god, fall in vnfaythfulnes, and wyth idolatry do seruyce to the deuyll. And therfore I shewed in my sayd dyaloge/ and yet the kynges hyghnes mych more playnely shewed in hys moste erudyte famouse boke agaynst Luther out of which I toke it: that the word of god vnwryten is of as grete authoryte, as cer- tayne, and as sure, as is hys worde wryten in the scrypture/ whyche poynt is so faste and sure pytched vppon the rokke our sauyour Cryste hym selfe, that neyther Luther, Tyndale, nor Huskyn, nor all the hell houndes that the deuyll hath in his kenell, neuer hytherto coulde, nor whyle god lyueth in heuen and the deuyll lyeth in hell neuer herafter shall (barke they, bawle they neuer so faste) be able to wreste yt out. And that they be all as I tell you so feble in this poynte, where- uppon theffecte of all theyr hole heresies hangeth (for but yf they veynquysh this one poynt, all theyr heresyes fully be burned vppe and fall as flatte to asshen as yt were almoyse all obstinate heretyques dyd) ye maye se a clere proue by these wordes of Tyndale, whyche he hath sette so gloryously forth in the fore fronte of his batayle, as though they were able to wynne the hole felde. For where as I sayed ys the gospell and the worde of god vn- wryten was byfore the chyrche / and by yt was the chyrche begonne, gathered, and tought/ and that the chyrche was byfore that the gospell ys now is wryten was wryten, that is to wyt byfore any parte of the gospell was wryten/ for as for all ys hole gospell, that is to wyt all the wordes of god that he wold haue knowen, [Ai] byleued, and kepte, was yet neuer wryten: this beynge the thynge that I sayd, Tyndale wyth all the helpe he hath had of all the heretyques in Almayne this two or thre yere to gether/ is yet in such dyspayre to be able to matche therewith, that he is wyth shame inough fayne to forgete that I sayed the chyrche was byfore the gospell wryten, whyche thynge hym selfe can not denye, and is fayne to frame the doute & make the obieccyon/ as though I had sayed that the chyrch had bene byfore the gospell and the worde of god vnwriten/ wherof hym selfe knoweth well that I sayed clene the contrarye. And therfore good readers hauynge this thynge in your remembraunce: take now the payne to reade Tyndales wordes agayn, and ye shall haue a pleasure to se how fondely he iugleth afore you. For now his crafte opened & declared vnto you: ye shall perceyue yt he playeth nothynge clene/ but fareth lyke a iugler that conuayeth his galles so craftely, that all the table spyeth them. Tyndale. And agayne as the ayer is darke of yt selfe, and receyueth all her lyght of the sonne: euen so are all mennes hertes of them selfe darke wyth lyes, and receyue all theyr trewth of goddes worde, in that they consent therto. More. And this lyketh me very well/ and so myche the better by cause that the goodnesse of god causeth Tyndale to speke these wordes, nothyng touchyng the mater for any reprofe of my boke/ but onely reprouynge hym self and condemnyng all his hole secte. For I neuer sayed, nor no man ellys as I suppose neyther crysten nor hethen/ that god taketh hys trewth or his lyght of man but man of god. And therfore this holy sermone he spendeth but in waste/ sauynge as I sayde for the condemnynge of hym selfe and his secte. For syth yt is trew that by the lyght of god as Tyndale here con- fesseth, mennys hartes be clensed from lyes & false opynyons and from thynkyng euyll good, and therfore from consentynge to synne/ and we se well that Tyndale and all hys secte be sette all vppon heresyes & false blasphemouse lyes, and thynke (yf they thynke as they saye) bothe euyll good & good euyll/ for they call Crystes sacra- mentes euyll and Luthers lechery good/ and so not onely consent to synne but also commytte and defende and teache the whole dede stynkynge see of synne: yt foloweth by Tyndales own holy sermon here, that his owne herte and the hertes of all hys [Aiv] whole secte be the darke ayer of hell / from which the lyght of goddes owne gloryouse sonne that came to geue lyght in to ye darke ayre of this erth, hath farre wythdrawen his bemys. And this hath Tyndale wyth his owne holy wordes deuysed of none occasyon/ and farre from the mater but onely to shew ys glorye of his hygh spyrituall phrase:. nothyng done at all but geuyn hym selfe a fall, and throwen all hys mater in the myre. Yet hath he one worde, by whyche it appereth that whyle he saw hym selfe fallen: he wolde pull downe other men in to the myre to hym. For yf ye consyder hys wordes/ ye shall se that he cowcheth them in suche wyse, that he wolde make men wene that where so euer there were a trew bylefe and false opynyons taken awaye/ that there it muste nedes be ys men shall not consent to synne. Whyche thynge he doeth for the colour and cloke of theyr false opynyon, by whyche they teche that fayth alone alwaye suffyseth/ wherin when they fynde them selfe so shamefully confuted and conuicted, they be loth to seme to fle by day, and therefore they fle by nyght and retrete them selfe in the darke/ makyng as though they were mysse taken and ment no thyng, but that who so haue a ryght byleue & not a false opynyon, it can not be but that he must nedys do well as Tyn- dale sayth here, ys he which doth not byleue euyll to be good, he shall neuer consent to synne. As it is a greate foly to afferme thys/ so were it all moste as mych foly to confute thys. For who is there that thynketli that to kyll a man for hys money is no synne and yet many wretches do it. Who thynketh that aduowtry is no synne, & yet many wretches do it. Who thynketh ys to wedde a nonne is no synne/ I dare saye not euyn these wretches them self ys wedde them, but they veryly know it for synne and yet the wretches do it. And therfore thys tale of Tyndales is but a very folysshe heresye. Tyndale. Iohan.xvij. Sanctyfye them o father thorow thy trewth. And thy worde is trewth. And thus thou seyst that goddys trewth dependeth not of man. It is not trew bycause man so sayth or admitteth it for trew. More. Whereof serueth all this whyle no man sayed ys contrary. Tyndale. But man is trew bycause he byleueth it, testyfyeth, and gyueth wytnes in hys harte that yt is trew. [Ai] More. Nay perde thys is not alway trew. For saynt Peter hym selfe was not trew, when he testyfyed & gaue wytnesse wyth hys mayster in his harte, and yet forsware hym openly with hys mowth. And Iudas byleued in hys harte that goddys worde was trew/ and yet was hym selfe not trew but a false thefe and a false traytour to. And now adayes also be there many false theuys and traytours vnto god, false heretykes I meane, that by the worde of god byleue and wote well inough that it is abomynable thefte and sacrylege for a frere to wedde a nonne/ harlottes, bothe do and teche the contrary to theyr owne bylefe. Tyndale. And Cryste also sayth hym selfe Iohan.v. I receyue no wytnesse of man. For yf the multytude of mannys wytnesse myghte make ought trew: then were the doctryne of Machomet trewer then Cryste More. Now cometh he sumwhat to hys purpose in dede/ but he cometh to a full shrewde purpose. For by these wordes of Cryste in the fyfth chapyter of Iohan / he wolde make it seme that there sholde no credence be gyuen to ys chyrche bycause they be men/ and therefore can not as Tyndale sayth bere wytnesse vnto Cryste nor hys worde, syth Cryste sayth hym selfe I receyue no wytnesse of man. To thys purpose hath he brought forth all hys gaye paynted processe byfore/ the glyterynge wherof he hopeth sholde so dase our eyen, that we sholde not se the falsed of hys shorte sodayne conclusyon, in whych he knytteth vp Cryste and Machomet togyther, to confounde the credence and authoryte of Crystes chyrch. But good crysten readers, dyfferrynge for ys whyle Machomettes doctryne wyth whom Tyndale maye make a matche: I shall shewe you what fraude and deceyt Tyndale here vseth, bothe in the trans- latyng and in the interpretacyon of these wordes of our sauyour Cryste, that he reherseth wryten in the fyfthe chapyter of saynt Iohan. Cryste in that Place neyther meaneth nor sayth, that he taketh no wytnesse of man as Tyndale reherseth / but he bothe meaneth & sayeth that he taketh not hys specyall wytnesse of man but of god. And to the entent that ye maye the better perceyue that/ for to make hys heresye seme proued by the gospell, he falsely trans- lateth the gospell. Ye shall vnderstande that the latyn tonge lacketh one certayne artycle that ys greke hath, [Aiv] and whiche artycle in parte both our englysh langage hath, and the frenche also, and dyuerse other tonges, and yt is in englyshe this worde, the. For where as we haue two artycles in englysh, a and the: a or an (for both is one artycle, the tone byfore a consonaunt the tother byfore a vowell) is commen to euery thyng almost. But the, sygnifyeth often tymes some specyall thynge, and dyuydeth yt from ys generall. As when I saye a man or a horse/ yt standeth indyfferent, & appereth not what man or what horse I meane. For if I wold be so vnwyse to say to my seruaunt, go do me this erand to a man/ he sholde not wyt what man he sholde go to. But when I saye, go do this erand to the man: he woteth well that I meane a certayne specyall man to hym and me knowen, to whom the erand perteyneth. This artycle the, doth ther- fore in oure englyshe tonge gyue great lyght vnto the sentence/ and the greke tonge hath an artycle ys doth the lyke in theyrs/ & the lakke of the lyke doth in the latyne tonge leue often tymys the sen- tence obscure and darke, whyche wolde wyth that artycle yf the latyne langage had yt, appere open and playne. I shall shew you fyrste an example therof in the fyrst chapytet of the gospell of saynte Iohan, whyche place Tyndale hath wronge translated also / for what cause the deuyll and he knoweth. For Tyndale is not ignoraunt of that artycle, neyther the greke nor the englyshe, and maketh hym self as though he translated ys new testa- ment out of greke. These wordes be the wordes of the gospell in that place aftre Tyndales translacyon: This ys the recorde of Iohan, when the Iewes sent prestes and leuites from Hierusalem to aske hym whai art thou/ and he confessed and denyed not and sayed playnely I am not Criste. And they asked hym what then, arte thou Helias. And he sayed I am not. Arte thou a prophete. And he answered no. I wolde not here note by the waye, that Tyndale here translateth no for nay, for yt is but a tryfle and mystakyng of the englyshe worde: sauynge that ye sholde se yt he which in two so playne englyshe wordes, and so commen as is nay and no, can not tell when he sholde take the tone, and when the tother/ is not for translatynge in to englyshe, a man very mete. For the vse of those two wordes in answerynge to a questyon is this. Nay answereth the questyon framede by the affyrmatyue. As for ensample, yf a man sholde aske Tyndale hym selfe: is an heretyke mete to translate holy [Bi] scryp- ture into englyshe. Lo to this questyon yf he wyll answere trew englyshe, he muste answere nay and not no. But and yf the questyon be asked hym thus lo: Is not an heretyque mete to translate holy scripture into englysh. To this questyon lo yf he wyll answere trew englyshe, he muste answere no & not nay. And a lyke dyfference is there bytwene these two aduerbis ye, and yes. For yf the questyon be framed vnto Tyndale by thaffyrmatyue in this fasshyon. If an here- tyke falsely translate the new testament in to englysh, to make his false heresyes seme the word of god, be his bokes wurthy to be burned? To this questyon asked in this wyse, yf he wyll answere trew englyshe he muste answere ye and not yes. But now yf the questyon be asked hym thus lo by the negatiue: If an heretyque falsely translate the new testament in to englysh, to make his false heresyes seme ys worde of god/ be not his bokes well worthy to be burned? To this questyon in thys fasshyon framed yf he wyll answere trew englyshe, he maye not answere ye, but he muste answere yes, and saye yes mary be they, both the translacyon and the translatour, and all that wyll holde wyth them. And thys thynge lo though yt be no greate mater/ yet I haue thought good to gyue Tyndale warnynge of, bycause I wolde haue hym wryte trewe one waye or other/ that though I can not make hym by no meane to wryte trewe mater, I wolde haue hym yet at the leste wyse wryte trew englyshe. But now to the mater selfe. Ye se that by Tyndals translacyon ys iewes asked of saynt Iohan whether he were a prophete and that he answered nay/ and so he denyed that he was a prophete. Now doeth Cryste testyfye of hym, that he was both a prophete and more then a prophete/ so yt yf saynt Iohan sholde say of hym selfe that he was no prophete, and Cryste sayed yes/ eyther sholde saynt Iohan say vntrew hym selfe, or ellys sholde there an vntrewth be spoken by ys mouth of our sauyour hym selfe/ of whyche two thynges the tone is incredyble and the tother impossyble. And in the latyne tonge this thynge is lefte in dowte for lakke as I tolde you of an artycle correspondent to ys greke artycle & to the englysshe artycle the/ and for that cause some ryght holy men and very well lerned, were for lakke of ye greke tonge mych troubled wyth that place, how it myghte be vnderstanden ryght. But Tyndale by the greke tonge perceyuynge the [Biv] artycle/ saw well inough that he sholde not haue translated it in to the englyshe, art thou a prophete, but art thou ys prophete/ and then were the mater open and playne. For they asked hym not whyther he were a pro- phete, that is to wytte whyther he were any prophete/ but whyther he were the prophete, that is to wyt the greate prophete of whom Moyses prophesyed and promysed in the ewteronomy / of whyche prophete there was opynyon amonge many of the iewes, not that he sholde be Cryste but a grete prophete that shold come before hym/ and therfore they asked saynt Iohan, arte thou the prophete, menynge that specyall prophete. And yet the iewes that asked saynt Iohan the questyon, notwythstandynge that by theyr owne questyon they knewe that he dyd not in hys answere denye hym selfe to be any prophete, but that specyall prophete of whome they ment: dyd yet falsely reherse hym in theyr anger, when they sayd agayne vnto hym, yf thou be neyther Cryste nor Helyas nor prophete, why baptysest thou then. And as ys iewes dyd then wyttyngly false reherse hym: so doth Tyndale as falsely now translate hym/ makynge it seme that by theyr questyon and hys answere, eyther saynte Iohan sholde saye vntrew, or ellys our sauyour hym selfe. And for what intent let Tyndale hym selfe tell/ but that he so doeth hys translacyon sheweth. And that he doeth it wyttyngly well appereth, by that he is not so ignoraunt in the greke tonge, but that he knoweth the artycle there whyche he sholde haue taken in to the englysshe/ and in many other places so hath he done. And in this place yf he had not perceyued it hym selfe: yet ys good vertuouse and well lerned man Nicholas de lyra, gaue hym warnyng therof/ whom though Tyndale lyste to set at so shorte and mokke and scorne, sayenge that <2Lyra delirat:>2 yet he shall not say nay but he gaue hym good warnynge here, and hath in dede more good lernynge in the scrypture of god, then hath Luther and Huchyns, and fyue frere Huyskyns, & as many frere Lambertes to. Now that I haue shewed you somwhat of the strength and effecte of the artycle, bothe greke and englysshe, whych declareth that the worde whereto it is set, sygnyfyeth not a thynge generally and con- fuse at large, but some specyall thynge determynate of that kynde/ and that I haue shewed you one ensample therofin ys gospell whyche Tyndale hath euyll translated: I wyll now go ferther and shew you how [Bi] he hath euyll translated also thys selfe same texte of saynite Iohan to, whyche he now alledgeth, & hath therin falsyfye wordes of our sauyour hym selfe, whyche he now bryngeth forth for hys purpose, The wordys spoken by our lorde be as Tyndale hath translated them these, I take no recorde of man. In the latyn they be thus ego <2testimonium ab homine non recipio.>2 Whyche yf it be translated into englysshe without the artycle as the latyn hath none/ then is it th I take not recorde of man, and not as Tyndale hath translated, I take no recorde of man. He maketh his englyshe as though the latyn were, <2ego nullum testimonium ab fomine recipio.>2 And whyther the sentence be precysely both one in these twayne, I take not recorde of man, & I take no recorde of man: we shall not now nede to dispute, syth Tyndale taketh the sentence wronge whyche of them both so euer were the wordes, as I shall shew anon. But fyrste I shall go forth and shew you as I byganne, that he sholde haue translated the wordes in to englysh otherwyse/ and therby haue expressed the greke the better, and yet not contraryed the latyne. Ye shall therfore vnderstande that in that place of saynt Iohan the fyfte chapyter, where Tyndale hathe translated Crystes wordes in this wyse, I receyue no recorde of man: the greke boke hath there vppon thys worde recorde the artycle, that is as I haue shewed you correspondent vnto our englyshe artycle the/ by which artycle put byfore ye word recorde, that word there in the tonge in whych theuangelyste wrote the wordes hym selfe, sygnyfyeth not a comen record in generall, but a certayne specyall kynde of recorde/ as the greke artycle made the worde prophete in the fyrste chapyter, to sygnyfye not a prophete in generall, but a specyall prophete whome the Iewes loked for. And therfore I saye that Tyndale sholde in his englysh translacyon not haue lefte oute that artycle the/ but sholde at the leste wyse haue translated yt thus, I receyue not the recorde of man/ where as wyth his translatyng no record, yt article the, wheruppon the wayght of the sentence hangeth/ he hath not onely lefte oute but clene excluded also. For yf he had translated yt, I receyue not recorde of man, though he left oute the: yet he myght take yt in there to and mende yt, makynge yt, I receyue not the recorde of man. But now that he hath translated yt, I receyue no recorde of man: he [Biv] hathe excluded yt vtterly but if he take in not, and putte out his false no/ for he can not saye I receyue no the recorde of man. And thys hathe he done not of ignoraunce but of malyce, to make yt seme that Cryste vtterly refuseth and reiecteth all maner wytnesse of man, in testyfycacyon and wytnessynge of hym and his trouth. And this trans- lacyon therfore deuyseth Tyndale/ bycause he wold haue vs wene that Cryste wolde haue the wytnesse of all his chyrche vtterly serue of noughte. But now bycause yt wyll peraduenture seme vnto some menne, that though he had in his translacyon expressed the greke artycle and made yt thus, I take not the recorde of man, that yet yt were all one and no difference bytwene those wordes and these, I take no recorde of man: of trouth the dyfference is not ethe for euery man to perceyue / & yet some difference is there in dede, as there is bytwene these twayne: If a man wolde saye in spekynge of god and Moyses, I take Moyses for no leder of the chylderne of Israell/ he shold say wrong, for lie shold deny hym to haue ben theyr leder in any maner wyse, as he was theyr leder in dede. But yf he wolde saye I take not Moyses for the leder of the chylderne of Israel, he shold saye well inough/ for he shold therby not vtterly denye Moyses to haue bene any maner / but he shold denye that he was theyr onely leder or theyr chyefe leder/ meanynge that though he were a leder, yet god was the leder, that is to wyt the chyefe leder. Now yf any yet perceyue not clerely the strength of this artycle: he maye consyder that yt is & I take you not for the man. The two fyrste excludeth hym vtterly from all the nature and kynde of man/ the thyrd doth but denye hym to be some such certayne man as they meane of But yet shall ye ferther vnderstande that as I sayd in the begyn- nynge, though oure artycle the, be correspondent vnto the greke article in declaryng the certayntie of the thyng that it is put vnto, and in restraynynge the worde from hys generall sygnyfycacyon to a more determynate especyaltye / and that in many thynges thys is very playne and clere: yet doeth not our artycle somtyme so fully and so effectually declare that thynge as doeth the artycle in the greke specyally, but yf we chaunge the order of our englysshe wordes from the order of the greke. And therfore I saye, that to put [Bi] away the dowte and for the better expressyng of the artycle/ Tyndale shold in the translatynge of that place, haue chaunged somwhat the order of ys wordes. And where they lye in the latyn in thys wyse: I receyue not the recorde of man/ he sholde rather haue translated it thus: the recorde I receyue not of man. For by so translatynge those wordes, and so chaungynge the order: he sholde haue gone more nere to the expressynge of ys very sentence that Cryste there spake and ment/ whyche was that the specyall recorde he toke not of man but of god/ and not that he wolde take of man no maner recorde at all, as I shall none so clerely proue you, that Tyndale shall neuer whyle he lyueth de out therof But fyrst it wyll happely seme hard to some men, that he whyche nslateth sholde in hys translatynge make any chaunge in the order of the wordes. Ye shall vnderstande ys it is a thyng whych he must mamy tymes nedys do/ bycause of the maners and formes of spekyng in dyuers langages. For yf he shall alwaye translate worde for worde and in the order as it standeth/ he shall somtyme gyue a sentence vnable to be perceyued or vnderstanden/ and somtyme a wronge sentence, ye & somtyme a contrary to, of all whyche I coude gyue you samples were it not bothe nedeles & also to longe for thys present boke. I wyll therfore of a greate many gyue you but one/ in whyche Tyndale hath for lakke of chaungynge the order of the wordes, trans- lated a very playne place in the very begynnynge of saynt Iohans gospell, whyther wronge or no lette other iudge/ but surely other- wyse then I wolde haue done. Hys translacyon is thys, <2In the begynnyng was that worde, and that>2 <2worde was with god, and god was that worde.>2 Fyrst thys worde that, putteth Tyndale for the artycle the, wherof I haue shewed you before/ wherin he doth mych a mysse. For it is no dowte but that it is here put for to sygnyfye the specyaltye of the thynge, as of god and the worde/ bycause there be many wordes, and the paynyms worshypped many goddes/ ys artycle is set to those wordes to sygnyfye not a worde nor a god, as though it were one of ys many wordes of men, or one of the many goddys of paynyms/ but the god and the worde that is the synguler god and the synguler worde, that is to wyt the worde of god. And that artycle is not in englysshe thys word that, as Tyndale hath [Biv] translated/ but thys word the, as he sholde haue translated/ but yf he wyll turne the artycle out of hys kynde. A man maye say the man that we spake of was here, or that man that we spake of was here. But and yf he speke of hym absolutely, wythout mencyon of any speche before had wyth hym, he muste then saye, the man was here/ and maye not saye, that man was here, but yf he adde sumwhat to it. If ye speke of the cheyfe capytayne of the felde/ ye maye saye, the capytayne wyll marche on to morow. But ye maye not saye, that capytayne wyll march on to morow, but yf ye shewe whych capytayne by some other token, or ellys poynt hym wyth your fynger. And Tyndale knoweth thys well inough/ and therfore he calleth god all waye the lorde, and not a lorde nor that lorde. And therfore I meruayle why he translated <2In principio erat verbum,>2 In the begynnyng was that worde/ for surely that worde that, was not to begynne with all nor to stande there, but yf Tyndale entended to mokke. or the seconde synguler, where the thynges that we speke of or the artycle or the dyuersyte of the worde whyche is in the verbe in our englysshe tonge, chaunged in those two persons synguler, taketh the But as I was about to saye, where he translateth go was the worde / dowte awaye, and maketh the mater open whyche of the two termys we take for <2subiectum>2 and whyche for <2Pr@dicatum:>2 yet in thys greate mater I wolde rather in our owne tonge haue chaunged and turned the order of the wordes & translate it thus: the word was god/ then as Tyndale doth god was the word/ lykewyse as I wold in englysshe rather saye Cryste was god, then god was Cryst. For these wordes god was Cryste, or god was the worde be not well spoken/ sauynge that we vnderstande thereby the tother wyth the wordes chaunged, that is to wyt Cryste was god, and the worde was god. For ellys vnderstanden as it standeth god was Cryste/ were as mych to saye as that all ys thre persons the father, sonne, and holy gooste were Cryste all thre. How be yt I saye not this to shew that I thynke Ys Tyndale ment any euyll in this / nor I impugne not in this poynt this translacyon so greatly, but yt maye be borne: but I saye the tother is in englyshe the texte in scripture, maye be sometyme by ys translatour better chaunged then kept. And I tell you this to thentent that ye maye the more clerely perceyue, that Tyndale sholde not haue letted in ys tother place that he alleged in the fyfthe of saynte Iohan, I receyue no recorde of man / to chaunge the order of ys wordes wyth settyng in the artycle, and to haue sayed, the recorde I receyue not of man. Ye and syth the artycle sygnifyeth the specyall kynd of recorde: rather then to do as he hathe done leue yt quyte out, as though god refused all maner wytnesse of man/ he sholde rather haue translated yt, the chyefe recorde I receyue not of man/ as hym self hath in ys .xiiii. of saynt Iohan translated, the chyefe ruler of thys worlde com- meth/ where as in the greke is not this worde chyefe/ but that he putteth yt in hym selfe bycause of the artycle, whyche he wolde not withdraw from the deuyll, leste he shold haue mynyshed his honour. But he wythdraweth yt here from the wytnesse of god/ bycause he wold take from god the witnesse of all trew crysten people, whyche by theyr trew bylyef do sette theyr sealys as wytnesses to the trewth of god. Now yf he wyll contende and stryue wyth vs vppon the vygour & strength of this artycle the, or of his correspondent in the greke/ and brynge vs forth example in our speche or in the greke eyther, in whyche yt maye seme that those artycles haue not alway that maner strength: all this shall nothynge serue hym at all. For yf they haue sometyme that strength, and then ys mater sheweth that the greke artycle hath that strength in this place that we speke of now: yt shall suffyse to proue that he hath done wronge to leue yt out, when he myght in the englyshe fynde the meane to expresse yt. And yt appereth that he dyd yet worse, when he sought the meanes to exclude yt/ and worst of all syth he lefte yt out malicyousely for ye mayntenaunce of hys heresye, by whyche he wolde make yt seme that Criste by those wordes reiected and refused the wytnes of his hole catholyque chyrche. For whyche cause he hath double translated those wordes wronge, or rather treble as few wordes as they be. Ones in leuynge out ys article the/ ys seconde in puttyng in this worde no/ ys thyrd wherof I spake not yet, in this worde receyue, in stede of thys worde take. For the greke is <2lambano,>2 an the latyne is <2capio>2 or <2accipio/>2 and both the greke and the latyne sygny fyeth takynge and not [Biv] receyuynge. Now yt is not all one to sa I take no recorde of man, & to saye I receyue no recorde of man. For the tone sygnyfyeth ys I care not greatly for ty, not ys I wyll not go about yt. But the tother I receyue no wytnesse of man/ sygnyfyeth that I wyll not receyue yt but refuse yt though y be offerde/ or ellys a nother thyng whyche wyll not serue for Tyn dales excuse, that is to wyt, I receyue none bycause no man offerth me none. But Cryste wythout sekynge for yt, was offerd the wytnesse of saynt Iohan/ whych Tyndale maketh as though Cryste reiected, whyle he falsely translateth the wordes of our sauyour, and maketh hym say, I receyue no wytnesse of man. Now shall I playnely shew you by many places of scrypture, that yt ys false that Cryste receyueth no recorde of man/ and then may ye therby se that Tyndale hath translated false. Or yf he wolde blynde you wyth brabelynges vppon the greke tong/ ye shall at ys leste wyse perceyue playnely, that he taketh the sentence falsely. For these two be playne repugnaunt, that god receyueth some recorde of man/ and that god receyueth no recorde of man. For Tyndale can not saye here that Cryste spake yt there by the fygure called <2yperbole,>2 as saynte Iohan dyd where he sayed, his wyt- nesse no man taketh, meanyng very few. Our sauyour hym selfe in the .xxiiii. chapyter of saynt Luke, when he had shewed his apostles and other of his dyscyples that all thynge wryten of hym by Moyses and the pro- phetes and in the psalmes, were and must be fullfylled/ and ther- uppon opened theyr wyttes to the vnderstandyng of scripture, and sayed vnto them, thus yt is wryten & thus yt behoued Criste to suffer and to ryse agayne from deth the thyrd daye, & that penaunce and remyssyon of synnys sholde be preached in his name amonge all nacyons begynnynge at Hierusalem: he sayed vnto them forther, and ye are wytnesses of these thynges/ & lo I wyll sende the promyse of my father vppon you/ but tary you in Hierusalem tyll ye be endewed wyth power from an hygh. Lo here ye maye se that Cryste dyd not saye that he wold receyue no wytnesse of man. For he sayed hym self that those men sholde be his wytnesse amonge all nacyons. He sayeth also hym selfe vnto them in the fyrste chapyter of the actes: ye shalbe wytnesses vnto me in Hierusalem, & in all Iewry, and in Samary, and euen vnto the worldes [Ci] ende. The new testament is full of those places/ in which yt appereth playnely that men be the wytnesses of god. For though that hys trewth is so iustyfyed in yt selfe, that yt nedeth no wytnesse neyther of man nor angell, as touchynge any nede that god hath for hym selfe: yeth syth he entendeth to worke the waye to mannes saluacyon, not by onely myracle (wherby he myght yf he wolde so wreste mannes wyll to consent, that he sholde not fayle to byleue/ or caste in to ys herte suche a lyght of vnderstandynge, yt he sholde not fayle to knowe euery artycle of the fayth) but also by a naturall waye ioyned ther- vnto/ wherin the wyll of man maye by the labour of hym selfe wyth god in the captyuynge of his wyt, wyth helpe of grace in to the obedy- ence of the worde of god, somwhat indeuour hym selfe towarde his owne saluacyon by fayth: yt pleaseth god to vse in thys waye the wytnesse of men for a meane/ as he sayth in the same.v. chapyter spekynge of the wytnesse of saynt Iohan, where he sayth, the record I take not of man, but I tell you this bycause ye shold be saued/ geuyng them knowlege ys though his credence hang not vppon the mouth of man, for he hath as he there sayth a greater wytnesse then ys wytnesse of saynt Iohan, ys is to wyt the wytnesse of ys father hym selfe: yet was yt ordeyned ys he shold haue also ye witnesse of saynt Iohan, & so afterwarde of hys euangelistes & apostles, ye & after ys of his other holy doctours & sayntes of euery age, & specyally, ys wytnesse of his hole catholike chyrch to here & gyue credence vnto them for a meane by god prouyded, by whych man shold come to fayth for his saluacyon. Here ye perceyue yt not onely in other places of holy scripture/ but also in ye self same place yt Tindale bryngeth forth hym selfe, wyllyng by hys false translatyng & false vnder- standynge, to make men wene that god taketh no maner wytnesse of man: it is clerely proued ys he neyther sayed nor ment in that maner/ but that he receyued not hys chyefe recorde of man, bycause he had greater recorde then man/ that is to wyt as well the workes whyche hys father made hym worke, as also the Wytnesse of hys father hym selfe/ whyche not wythstandynge, he receyued and accepted for a meane of mannys saluacyon the wytnesse of man also, as ye se by these places of scrypture. And lykewyse in the .xv. chapyter of saynt Iohan our sauyour ioyneth the wytnesse of men to the Wytnesse of ys holy goost, where he sayth vnto hys dyscyples: when the comforter is comen whom I wyll sende vnto you from the father, [Civ] whyche is the spyryte of trouth that procedeth of the father, he shall bere wytnesse of me/ and ye shall bere wytnesse also, bycause ye haue ben wyth me from the begynnynge.  And yet for bycause we sholde not by these wordes wene that he wolde haue no wytnesses of menne, but those onely that were wyth hym in hys owne tyme whyle he lyued here on erth: god sayth by the mouth of saynt Iohan the baptyste in the.iii. chapyter of saynt Iohan the euangelyste: he that cometh from heuyn is aboue all and testy- fyeth the thynges that he hath seen and herde, and hys testy man receyueth. Who so euer do receyue hys recorde hath putte hys seale thereto that god is trew. And what is that to saye? but that euery trew byleuyng man is a wytnesse ys god is trew. And thus appereth it not onely that Tindale hath mysse translated and mysse construed these wordes of Cryste, I receyue no wytnesse of man, for the furnysshynge of hys heresye, by whyche he wolde take awaye the credence of Crystes catholyke chyrche: but also ye se it proued by these wordes of saynt Iohan baptyste, that euery trew byleuyng man that byleueth goddes worde, is a good wytnesse of god and hys worde/ whyche clerely proueth that Crystes catholyke chyrche is a very specyall wytnesse. For onely in that chyrch is the nomber of trewe byleuynge menne/ and all that are fallen owte of that catholyke knowen chyrche are very false byleuynge heretykes. And also syth our sauyour sayth, my cheyfe wytnesse I take not of man/ but yet I saye to you thys, that is to wytte the wytnesse o good holy man saynt Iohan, bycause ye sholde be saued: it appereth that Tyndale refusyng all wytnesse of man, is lykely to be one of those that for vnfaythfulnes neuer shalbe saued. Now all be it that I haue in thys chapyter playnely conuycted Tyndale of malycyouse falshed vsed by hym, in peruertynge the scrypture of god, as wefl in the wordes as in the sentence, for the settynge forth of hys pestylent heresye/ takynge awaye the credence that men are bounde to gyue to the chyrche of god, and thereby the obedyence that men are bounden to bere to the chyrche of god/ and that he doeth all thys bycause he wolde in stede of goddys chyrche, brynge men in to the congregacyon of the deuyll: yet for as mych as I se that Tyndale setteth not a lytle by thys chapyter, and wolde we sholde wene that it were hyghly well [Ci] handeled, I wyll a lytell stykke ye lenger therin/ to thentent that I maye make you the better and the more clerely perceyue, that all that he sayth therin is eyther playne vntrew, or ellys suche parte as is trew proueth hys purpose false. And for as mych as Tyndale is all in the worde of god/ and wolde therby make vs wene that mennys wordes sholde vtterly serue of nought, not so mych as for the wytnesse of goddys worde: ye shall vnderstande that where Tyndale sayth that the word of god clenseth mannys soule from false fayth, Io.v. ye be clene by reason of ys worde / yt is not trew that (as Tyndale wolde haue tt seme) the worde alone clenseth the soule from false fayth, no more then fayth alone as he wolde haue yt also seme, clenseth the soule fro synne. For bysyde the grace and goodnesse of god preuentyng mennys wyll, wyth offerynge man by ys herynge of hys word a gracyouse occasyon of fayth/ & bysyde mannys owne wyll workynge wyth grace towarde the captyuynge o hys vnderstandynge, towarde the bylyefe of goddes worde/ & bysyde the grace, ayde, and helpe of god workynge wyth mannes wyll to- warde that obedyence, wheruppon foloweth ys grace that accom- plisheth and perfayteth the full acte of belyuynge: bysydes all these I saye there helpeth towarde yt a nother thynge, wythout whych many a man sholde neuer haue commen to yt/ and that is bysyd the worde of god, the wonderfull workes of god in doynge great and meruelouse myracles, wythout whyche many a man sholde neuer haue byleued that he had ben god/ as hym selfe testyfyeth in the.v. of saynt Iohan, sayeng: The workes whyche my father hathe geue me to do: ye same workes whyche I do, they be wytnesse of me tha my father sent me. Wyll ye se that Cryste putteth not all in hys worde, but ioyneth hys worke therwyth. Here what he sayth in the.xv. chapyter of saynt Iohan. If I had not comen and spoken vnto them, they shold haue no synne/ but now haue they no thynge to cloke theyr synne wythall He that hateth me hateth my father. Now though thys be in ded trew, that yf Cryste had neuer comen and spoken to them, ther coude not haue ben layed vnto them the synne of that vnbylyefe, wherof they were now fawty when they refused to byleue on hym and hated hym: yet to shewe that hys onely prechynge was not the thynge that so shoIde brynge them and bynde them to byleue vppon payne of damnacyon/ but yf he [Civ] wroughte myracles amonge them for the profe of his word, therfore he saith ferther, If I had not done workes among them whyche none other man dyd/ they sholde be wythout synne. But now they haue seen and yet haue hated both me and my father. Thus haue I clerely shewed you that where Tyndale wolde haue yt seme, that goddes worde alone alwaye clenseth mennys soules from false fayth: he teacheth in that a false fayth/ for the myracles many tymys helpe to the clensynge of mennys soules. And lette Tyndale stykke well to thys poynt/ for I entende shortely to shew by this, that the miracles wrought in Crystes chyrche, clerely reproue all the false fayth that he & his mayster, & all theyr whole hondred sectes that are theyr ofsprynges preachen. But fyrst where Tyndale sayth that goddes worde ys trew/ & layth therfore the.xvii. of saynt Iohan: no man sayth nay to ys. And where he sayth forther, yt goddes trewth dependeth not of mannys word: we wyll graunte hym this, & mych more to then he loketh for. For I say ferther that the trouth of god depend- eth not vppon goddes owne worde neyther/ but is absolutely trew in yt self without any dependaunce vppon hys word at all. And as yt is trew that Tyndale savth, that goddes trewth is not trew bycause man so sayth: so is this trew also, that goddes trewth is not trew bycause god so sayth. But on the tother syde lykewyse as this argument or consecucyon is trew, god sayth that who so byleue not his chyrch/ is to be taken as a pay- nem, ergo that thyng is trew: so is thys consecucyon trew, Crystes chyrch sayth yt who so breke hys vow of chastyte synneth dedeIy, & who so holdeth yt for lefull holdeth an heresye / ergo these two thynges be trew, and yet is neyther the sayeng of the chyrche the cause of the trewth of these two, nor the sayeng of Criste the cause of the trewth of the tother. But lykewyse as yf I se one syt, yt must nedes be that he sytteth whyle I se hym syt/ bycause I could not se hym sytte but yf he satte in dede/ & yet he sytteth not bycause I se hym sytte, for syt he sholde though I saw hym not/ nor yf I saye that he sitteth, the trouth of his syttynge dependeth not vppon my sayenge/ but the trouth of my sayenge dependeth vppon the trouth of hys syttyng: so dothe the trouth of goddes dede not depende vppon the trouth of hys worde/ but the trouth of his worde dependeth [Ci] vppon the trouth of hys dede. For though the worde of god can not be but trew, syth yf the thynge were not trew, god ys is the trewth wolde not saye yt: yet is the thynge trew that god speketh/ not by cause it is trewly spoken, but bycause it is trewly done. For treuth was the thynge in yt selfe, & treuth yt sholde haue bene, all had yt neuer be spoken. And thys I saye is trewe, touchynge the wordes and proposycyons by whiche god any thynge telleth to his creatures by wrytyng or wythout/ leste Tyndale make vs here some sophysty- cacyon, as though I spake of the great worde of god wherby all thynge is made, the sonne of god hym self one egall god wyth hyS father and theyr holy spiryte. If Tyndale aske vs now wherof serueth then the treuth of goddes wordes: I saye that yt serueth to make knowen or byleued amonge vs the treuth of goddes dede. For when god sayth, who so byleueth and is baptyzed and lyueth well after, or doth penaunce for his synne/ shall for hys fayth & good workes be hyghly rewarded in heuen: though thys shall not be trew bycause god sayth yt, but by- cause he wyll do yt/ nor he dothe yt not bycause he wyll saye yt, but he sayth yt bycause he wyll do it: yet hath he ordeyned that hiS worde shall be the way by whiche that trouth shalbe shewed vs/ and that myracles ioyned vnto hys worde sholde make vs perceyue that yt is his worde, whereby wyth reason we muste nedes be bounden to byleue yt/ and it beyng byleued, we be by reason bounden to obey yt. And this ys therfore the waye that god hath taken from the begyn- nynge, that is to wyt he hath from the begynnyng ioyned hys word with wonderfull workes, to make his word perceyued for hys awne. Thus dyd he in euery age before the comyng of Cryste. Thus dyd he in Cryste hym selfe, whose wordes he proued by hys wonderfull workes as hym selfe sayth in the.xv. of saint Iohan. Thus dyd he also by his blessed apostles, whose doctryne he confyrmed by myracles. And thus hath he done euer synnys. For lykewyse as when he sent hiS owne sonne, leste menne sholde not belyue hym and hys doctryne declarynge hym selfe suche as he was: god made hym do myracles, mo and more excellent then euer any dyd amonge men before. Iohan .xv. When he sent his apostles & his dycyples to preche, leste they sholde not haue ben taken for goddys messengers/ and that yf had but tolde ys myracles that [Civ] Cryste dyd, the countrees to whome they were sent, wolde haue went that they had lyed, and fayned suche fables them selfe: therfore Cryste caused them to do myracles in his name before the people / as god caused Moyses to do before Pharao. And when the world was turned to hym, and that apostles were not sent about: then was the chyrch of euery tyme, the apostle to suche as were borne and came in to ye worlde in theyr tyme/ of whome suche as lyued and remayned after theyr tyme/ were in theyr stede lefte for the apostle that sholde teche & preche to those other that sholde be borne in to the worlde in theyr tyme, and so forth from age to age. And for bycause that they whyche from tyme to tyme come in to thys worlde, new borne fyrste of theyr flesshely father and mother, and after of god and theyr mother holy chyrche by the water and the spyryte, sholde be sure that theyr sayde mother the chyrche is Crystes apostle and techeth them the trewe doctryne, & neyther deceyueth them wyth false scrypture, as doth the congregacyon of turkes/ nor with false tradycyons, as do the synagoges of iewes/ nor wyth false exposycions as do the false chyrches of heretykes: he causeth hys chyrche to do myracles styll in euery age, and to be dyscerned and knowen by the plentuouse workyng of goddys wonders by hym selfe wrought therin so many and so grete that no man can be ignoraunt therof but he that wyll neyther se nor here/ or is so desperate and so sore set in an obstynate malyce that he wyll to the deuyll wyllyngly, by doyng now as the iewes dyd of olde, and as Tyndale now doth of done in goddes chyrch by the power of the deuyfl. And yet when Tyndale is so deuelysshe to tell vs thus/ he towcheth nothyng thys poynte whyche I layed agaynst hym in my dyaloge/ that yf hys lye were trew, then sholde it folow that of so many false chyrches of false heretikes, there shold some suche myracles be wrought as well as in ours/ syth yf that oure chyrche were a false chyrche, it were yet but one of the many. And yf he wyll saye that ours were the greatest and the falseste, and therfore false myracles therin gretest and bysyeste: yet must he telle vs wherfore it is, that amonge so many of theyr false chyrches mo, god suffereth not at the leste wyse for theyr lytell prety small falsshedes, some lytell prety small myracles to be done. But whereof trouth theyr falsshedes be so grete and outragyouse, that [Ci] they stretche from heuyn to hell:. they haue not yet amonge them all one myracle done greate nor small, neyther by god nor deuyll. And thys I shew you for the order of the thynge, that ye maye perceyue that the trewth of god is iustyfyed in it selfe, and dependeth not vppon hys worde, nor hys worde is not the cause of hys trewth: but by hys worde he sheweth hys trewth/ and by his worde we byleue that he doeth it/ and by hys apostles and euangelystes we byleue that he sayed it/ and by the chyrche of euery age folowynge, we be taughte and byleue that the euangelystes and the apostles preched and taught partely by wrytynge partely by worde wythout wrytynge, suche thynges as the catholyke chyrche of Cryste telleth vs to haue bene taughte by them. And by the myracles done in the same catholyke chyrche, we know that the same chyrche is the very chyrche of god/ and that the doctrine of the same chyrch is reueled and tought vnto yt by the spyryte of god/ and that all other congregacyons teachynge the contrary be false chyrches, & eyther theyr wrytyng be false scriptures, or theyr exposycyons falsely confounde the scrypture / syth god hath lefte his miracles for a marke of hys trew chyrch, & by ys meanes therof for a marke of his trew doctryne to/ wherby yt sholde be knowen where were his faythfull folke/ and his very wordes wyth the ryght vnderstandynge of the same, from all the faythlesse and fayned faythfull folke, and wronge wrytynge, and false interpre- tacyons, and counterfeted prechynges in the worlde, in yt god wolde leue all those congregacyons voyd of all myracles/ wherby hath ben hys perpetuall custome to declare and magnyfye hys treuth from the begynnyng of the worlde vnto this daye/ as I shall yet farther proue in a treatyce a parte, wherin I shall answere the wordes of Tyndale, as well in hys boke of obedyence as ellys where, as nere as I can gather them / by whyche he wolde make vs byleue ys all trewe myracles were ended eyther in the apostles dayes or sone after/ and that all were false illusyons of ys deuyll that haue be done euer synnys. Whyche yf he wyll haue byleued/ he muste I saye yet agayne tell vs then wherfore myracles haue all thys whyle contynued onely in our catholyke chyrche and in no false chyrche of heretykes as well as with vs, syth hym self can not deny that of so many sectes as they be, they muste nedys be all false saue one. [Civ] And therfore though yt be trew as in dede yt ys, that the trew doctryne doth proue the trew myracles, and false doctryne proueth the false myracles/ by which we be sure yt the Crysten myracles be trew, & ys paynyms myracles false: yet know we whyche ys that trewe doctryne, by the reason that the trew doctryne hath bene better proued and dayly ys better proued, by mo and greater then euer was the false doctryne or euer shall be to ys worldes ende. For as our sauyour saith hym selfe: If I had not come & wrought workes such as no man ellys had done/ they had bene wythoute synne. And he pro- myseth that his preachers shall do the same, and yet greater/ and so dyd hys apostles, and his dyscyples, and hys holy doctours, euer synnys in euery age. And as for false myracles/ the catholyke chyrch of Criste as yt is taught by the spyryte of god, dyscerneth them well inough from the trew/ and therfore yt dyscerneth and forbedeth the meruayles that appere in crystall stonys, and such other superstycyouse coniuracyons / and ys not moued any thynge to set by them, but condempne them though they be meruelouse / & hath the spyryte of god accordyng to Crystes promyse assystent, wherby yt bothe reiecteth the super- stycyouse meruayles, and worketh ys very faythfull myracles, for ys profe of the trew faythfull doctryne and ys trew marke and knowlege of Crystes very trew chyrche, syth none hath miracles but yt. that the doctours of the catholyque Now yf Tyndale wyll saye that the doctours of the catholyque chyrche haue not done miracles for euery poynt of theyr doctryne: I say no more dyd the apostles them selfe, though Tyndale saye yes, whych he shall neuer proue. But by theyr myracles they proued them self trew preachers and goddes trew messengers/ and that thynge suffysed for the profe of theyr whole doctryne. And so god hath done miracles synnys for all hys sayntes in euery age/ and that suffyseth to proue that theyr fayth was trew and the contrarye false. And yf he saye farther that euery man in the catholyque chyrch doth not myracles, nor euery doctour neyther: to that I answere that of many men teachyng all one fayth, yt suffyseth yf any one of them do myracles. For when the Iewes were in desert/ euery man that was of the well beleuyng sort dyd not myracles/ nor Aaron also dyd no miracles but Moyses dyd, & god wrought wonders among them hym self [Di] Nor when diuerse apostles went to gether/ euery one of them dyd not alwaye a myracle by hym selfe. But syth they were all ofone fayth:. it suffysed for the profe of the techyng of them all, that any one of them dyd. If he wyll saye that sometyme the doctours whyche we call holy sayntes, haue not all agreed in one/ but some one hath sometyme thought in some one thyng otherwyse then other haue done: I saye that thys his sayenge is nothynge to purpose. For god doth reuele hys trouthes not alwayes in one manner/ but sometyme he sheweth yt out at onys, as he wyll haue yt knowen and men bounden forthwyth to byleue yt / as he shewed Moyses what he wolde haue Pharao do. Sometyme he sheweth yt leysourly, suffryng his flokke to comen & dyspute ther- uppon/ and in theyr treatynge of the mater, suffreth them wyth good mynde & scrypture and naturall wisedome, with inuocacyon of his spirituall helpe, to serche and seke for the treuth, and to vary for the whyle in theyr opynyons, tyll that he rewarde theyr vertuouse dylygence wyth ledyng them secretely in to the consent and concorde and bylyef of the trouth by his holy spirite <2quifacit vnanimes in domo,>2 whyche maketh his flokke of one mynde in hys house, that is to wyt his chyrche. So yt in the meane whyle the varyaunce is wythoute synne, and maketh nothyng agaynst the credence of the chyrch/ excepte Tyndale wyll say that he wyll neyther byleue saynt Peter nor saynt Paule in any thynge that they teache/ bycause that ones they varyed in the man, ner of theyr doctryne as appereth. But he shall neuer fynde that any ofthe holy doc- tours helde obstynatly, the contrarye of that thynge whyche the hole catholyque chyrch had in his tyme determyned for an artycle of ys fayth. For I dare surely saye that yf any so had done / he had repented and chaunged ere god dyd any miracle for hym eyther quykke or dede. And therfore as touchynge Tyndale and Luther & frere Husken:. this obieccyon wyll not excuse theyr obstynate heresyes, holden so Styffely agaynste all the olde holy sayntes, whyle they saye now that freres maye well wedde nonnes/ but yf they repent, and leue theyr heresyes, and do penauns, and teache trouth/ for by such meanes they may yet be sayntes to, and so I praye god make them. Now yf Tyndale wyll yet forther saye, that the chyrche yt selfe haue not alway in euery age vtterly byleued a lyke/ [Div] but that the chyrch in some age hath byleued otherwise then it hath in some other: I say that this can also nothyng serue his purpose. For what so euer Tyndale saye: neuer shall he proue the contrarye, but that god is at hys lyberte styfl and euer styll shalbe to teache hys trouthes Tore and more, as his pleasure shall be to haue them known, and to gouerne his chyrche to hys pleasure in dyuerse ages after dyuerse maners, such as hym self lyste for to dyuyse/ wherof his chyrch is by- heyr hole consent sure. For ellys shall the spyryte of god assystent uer with them by goddes promyse, & ledynge them in to all trouth: neuer suffer his hole catholyke chyrch to consente thereto. And yf Tyndale saye the contrarye of this/ he muste also saye that Cryste hath broken hys promyse/ and he muste also tell vs, ys we be styll bounden yet vnto thys daye, & euer shalbe bounden styll, to the law made by god and hys holy apostles at Hierusalem, whyche they made & sent out in wrytynge/ where they forbode fornycacyon and eatyng ye meate offred vp to idoles, & all meate of bestes suffocate or strangled, and the eatyng of any bestes blood. Whyche ordynauns yf yt now stande, and that we muste now byleue that yt ys not now lawfull to do any of those thynges there forboden (as we muste in dede yf god were not for all that at his libertye styll in the gouernaunce and teachynge of his chyrche, what he wyll haue byleued and what he wyll haue done) then is quyte gone a good pece of theyr plesaunt preachynge of theyr euangelycall lyberty. For then where as they preache that euery man is at lybertye to eate what he lyste/ they leue no man at lybertye to eate a pore puddynge. But hys chyrch is sure inough/ by that they knowe well that theyr hole assent is not wrought wythout the spyryte of god assystent in hys chyrche. And that them selfe be hys very chyrche theybe sure inough/ by that they se hym specyally present wyth them by hys contynuall myracles, whych fayle in all false chyrches yt be fallen out of thys. All whych false chyrches thys trewe chyrche of cheryte Crystes proper badge / ceaceth not to sollycyte and labour to reuoke and receyue agayne into the porte of saluacyon and the hauen of heuen: excepte the deuyll by theyr dedely malyce, drowne them vtterly wyth dreuynge them downe into the depthe of indurate harte, thorowly perced with theyr pestylent heresye. And yet I say ferther, that thys obieccyon of dyuerse ar[Di]tycles byleued by the chyrch in diuerse tymes wyll not serue the heretykes for theyr defence/ syth that they teche suche thynges for trew, as not onely all the holy doctours and all the holy sayntes of euery tyme, but also all the hole chyrche of euery tyme, haue euer taughte to be false. Or ellys they muste shewe vs some one man at the leste wyse that in thys fyftene hundred yere before theyr dayes, hath holden for good and lyefull, that such persons as haue vowed chastyte to god, maye ronne out of relygyon and wedde harlottes at theyr lybertye. Now yf Tyndale wyll take holde of that ys I haue sayd/ that god is at hys lybertye to reuele a thynge when he wyll/ and that he hath now reueled thys new artycle to hym and hys holy felowes: they must I say then proue vs by myracles that they be goddes trewe messengers/ for ellys why sholde we byleue them. If he say that they proue it by scrypture, in that they preche hys worde: I saye agayne the scrypture I knowe for goddys worde, but them I knowe not for goddys messengers, bycause they wyll not be aknowen of all goddys wordes/ for they wyll byleue no word of hys wythout wrytyng / and also his wordes wryten they mysconstrue. And therfore concernyng the worde of god wryten: the questyon lyeth bytwene vs, not vppon goddys worde but vppon the ryght- vnderstandynge therof, wherin whyle all the olde holy doctours be quyte agaynste them, we say now to Tyndale that of reason we maye not byleue hym. For in these poyntes wherin we vary/ as for ensample that freres maye wedde nonnes: eyther ys scrypture is playne and easy to perceyue, or dowtuouse and harde to vnderstande. If it be playne & easy: we can not thynke but that amonge so many of ys old, holy, wyse, and well lerned doctours/ some one at the leste in all thys longe whyle sholde haue ben as able to perceyue it as Luther and he now so sodeynly. And on the tother syde yf he saye that in that poynte the scrypture is darke & hard: then maye we wyth reason thynke that Luther and he and frere Huskyn to, maye as well mysse vnderstande it now, as all those holy wyse well lerned sayntes all thys fyftene hundred yere. So that yet agayne we be come to the poynt, that Tyndale yf in hys doctryne dependynge vppon thexposycyon of scrypture he loke to be byleued, that freres maye wedde nonnes, agaynst the doctryne of all those olde holy [Div] doctours that in theyr exposycyons calle it abomynable lechery: he muste nedys do myracles as they dyd, or els must Luther or frere Huskyn or some one of theyr felowes at the leste. For where he sayth in one place of hys boke agaynst me, that we maye requyre no myracles of them: yf he had sayd, bycause they can none do, I wold haue taken it for a fynall answere, and wolde haue troubled hym no more wyth that troubelouse questyon. But now bycause he sayth it nedeth not/ and wolde it sholde seme that ys myracles which Cryste and hys apostles dyd, sholde serue for the profe of hys doctryne: my conscyence can not suffer me to let hym go so. For syth our questyon is not vppon Crystes & hys apostles wordes, whyche theyr myracles proued trewe/ but vppon the exposycyon and vnderstandynge that Tyndale and Luther gyueth to them/ whyche exposycyons all they that god hath euer synnes the apostles dayes hytherto by myracles proued to be hys trewe prechers, haue playnely taught to be false: Tyndale maye not saye for shame, but ys for hys doctryne taughte by those exposycyons, yf he wyll be byleued agaynst many prechers proued trewe by many myracles, he must do myracles to/ or ellys yf we byleue hym before all them, we be mych more then madde specyally but yf some of hys company and felowes in hys heresye dyd some myracles for hym, whyche our lorde be thanked he suffereth no false chyrche of heretykes to do, but hys owne catholyke chyrche alone. And now in suche thynges as god seeth moste nede, and the heretykes moste busy to assaute hys chyrche: there doth he moste specyally fence in hys chyrche wyth myracles. As in the reueren ymages, relykes, and pylgrymages, and worshyppynge of sayntes and hys holy sacramentes, and moste of all that holy sacrament of the auter hys owne blessed body, for whych maner of thynges he hath wrought and dayly doth many wonderfull miracles/ and the lyke of those that he wrought in the tyme of hys apostles, to shewe and make profe that hys catholyke chyrche is hys perpetuall apostle, how many nacions so euer fall therfro, and how lytell and small so euer it be lefte. And therfore we saye not as Tyndale bereth vs in hand, that the trouth of god dependeth vppon the multytude of mennys mowthes: but that the catholyque chyrche illu[Di]strate wyth the myracles of god, and taughte by the spyryt of god/ is set vppon the hygh moun- tayne of the stone that is Cryste/ and therfore can neuer be hyd, but that the myracles whyche god euer worketh and euer shall worke therin, doeth and shall make the lyghte of the doctryne shyne and shewe the ryght waye to heuen. And these myracles hath god often wrought to the conuersyon and amendement of iewys and heretykes/ & often to the confusyon and burnynge vppe of obstynate iewes & heretykes, wyth the begynnynge of theyr hell euyn here in erthe. Now Tyndale denyeth not but that there be and haue ben suche myracles/ but he sayeth that they be done by the deuyll. But then saye I that in hys so sayenge he is worse then euer was the deuyll. For the deuyll durste neuer say so myche hym selfe, as dyd the iewes and nowe Tyndale saye. But when he sayth it/ I saye yet agayne he must shewe me why there be no myracles amonge all hys false chyrches of heretykes/ or ellys to calle the trew myracles of god done in the catholyke chyrche of god false illusyons of the deuyfl, is a worde well able alone to proue hym selfe a deuyll. Now yf Tyndale wyll saye that the turkes haue myracles amonge them as well as our chyrche: I maye denye it hym by his owne rule, but if he proue it by playne scripture. But now yf I graunte it hym, yet shall it not serue hym. For I may proue hym by playne scrypture that there be neyther none suche, nor so many done amonge them as these be that be dayly done in Crystes catholike chyrch. For our sauyour sayth ys hys owne myracles passed all that had ben before/ & that yet hys apostles and dyscyples and hys faythfull byleuynge folke, shold do as greate and greater. An we se that in the catholyke chyrche go hath done and dayly doeth for hys sayntes, bothe whyle they were here and after theyr departynge hense/ and hath also done and dayly doeth at dyuerse ymages and pylgrymages, as greate myracles in confyrmacyon of our fayth in that behalfe, as euer he dyd in the tyme of the apostles. And therfore am I very sure that neyther paynyms nor turkes be able to matche our chyrche in myracles/ but that ours as farre passe all theyrs yf they haue any, as euer the myracles of Moyses passed the wychecrafte of the egypcyan iuglers. And of thys am I as sure/ as that ys false chyrches of heretykes do no myracles at all. [Div] Forther more as for miracles or meruayles done among the Turkes or Saracenis, syth Tyndale is not yet as farre as I know cyrcumcysed, nor professyth not hym self a Saracene, nor I know hym not very surely for a Turke but for an heretyque: I shall not greatly nede to dispute with hym vppon myracles done amonge the Machometanys/ but (whyche were as good as to do that he doth) let hym go cyrcum- cyse hym self, and then come agayne and speke for Machomete and his men, and I shall answere hym forther for theyr miracles. But in the meane tyme whyle I know hym but for an heretyke: yt is inough to tell hym that among all ys false chyrches of fals heretikes there be no miracles at all. But god worketh hys miracles in his trew chyrch, to shew his trew chyrche, that is to wyt his trew apostle. And then his trew preacher knowen/ that is suffycient for all his preachynge, and to proue that he doth teache & expoune the scripture after the ryght vnderstandyng tought and inspired by the spiryte of god, sent to dwell wyth his chyrche for euer, accordynge to Crystes promyse/ and therfore shall not nede no partyculare miracles vppon euery artycle, for Cryste vsed not that hym selfe. And thus in this myne answere to his one chapiter, which he so gayly florysshed, that he had went the glyteryng therof wold haue made euery mannys yies so adased, yt no man sholde haue spyed his falshed and founden oute the trouth: I haue in suche wyse confounded hym and all his hole doctryne vtterly/ that yf I neuer wold wryte one worde more, yet sholde he neuer agaynst this alone defende his deuelysh doctryne whyle he lyueth, and take all the deuyls in hell to helpe hym. Whyther the apostles left aught vnwriten, that is of necessyte to be byleued. We be come now good crysten reader vnto that mater, whyche is vndoutely one of the moste specyall poyntes that are in debate by- twene these heretyques and vs. For vppon thys questyon hangeth all theyr whole hold, in the destruccyon of many holy thinges byleued and obserued in Crystes catholyque chyrche. [Di] For yf we speke of fastynge the lent or other holy vygiles: they saye we fynde yt not in scrypture. If we speke of kepynge the holy daye: they saye the scrypture appoynteth none. If we speke of worshyp- pynge the sacrament of the auter: they saye yt is not commaunded in scrypture/ and so of euery good thynge almost in lyke wyse. For in this poynt they ende not. It serueth them but for a steppe forwarde. For after tyme that they haue sayd this ones, that euery necessarye thynge is wryten/ all be yt that they say therin false and are neuer able to proue theyr sayeng trew as ye shall se anon: yet when they be confuted and concluded openly therin, they dyssymule shamefully theyr confusyon / & makynge then as though theyr parte were proued, they runne on farther & wyll here no more therof / but denye also the thynges that be well and playnly wryten in holy wryt in dede. As for ensample when We saye that confyrmacyon, presthed, and matrymonye, be holy sacramentes: Tyndale sayth naye/ for he sayth yt is not wryten in scrypture. We shew hym playne scryptures for them, of grace geuen in them by the imposycyon of the handes by the wordes of saynte Poule / and Tyndale laugheth his wordes to scorne, sayeng it was but a maner of the countre, as a man layeth his hande vppon a boyes hed when he calleth hym good sonne. And as for matrymony/ he sayth that saynt Poule mente not in suche wyse / and that he can make as good a sacrament of salte, of musterd seed, of a kaye, or of a nette. So that as I saye byleue them onys in this, that we be bounden to byleue nothynge but the onely scrypture / and take awaye the credence from the catholyque chyrche, as though that god leuynge his onely scrypture therin, hadde broken his promyse and taken his spyryte therefrom: ye very scrypture yt selfe shall serue euery folyshe heretyque for a bable. Now for as mych therfore as ys mater of thys chapyter, wherin Tyndale as he dyd in the chapyter laste before in whyche I haue playnely confounded hym, gooth abowte agayne to take awaye the credence of Crystes catholyke chyrche/ whyche onys fallen awaye, the credence & the frute of scrypture and all gooeth wyth it (For bothe wolde euery secte of heretykes wreste it vnto theyr owne errours/ and as saynt Austayn sayth, saue for the chyrche we knowe not the holy scrypture of god from vnholy wrytynge of man): I re[Div]quyre the reader to consyder well what he readeth, and passe it not ouer sodaynly, but aduyse it sadly/ and I dowte not then but he shall playnely se that Tyndale shall in this chapyter as solemply as he setteth forth, take a shamefull fall. Here now therfore what he sayeth. Tyndale. But dyd not the apostles teache aught by mouth that they wrote not. I answe,e, because that many taughtone thynge, and euery man the same in dyuerse places and vnto dyuerse people, and confyrmed euery sermon wyth a sondrye miracle: therfore Cryste and his apostles preched an hunderd thousande sermons, and dyd as many myracles/ whyche hadde ben superfluouse to haue bene all wryten. More. Now consyder good reader that Tyndales purpose is, to proue vs that the apostles wrote all that was of necessyte to be done or to be byleued. And remember that as yet he doth but tell vs that they dyd so, and proueth it not yet/ but he wyll anon full worshyppefully. But in the meane waye marke me this fyrste, that he sayth that Cryste and his apostles dyd confyrme euery sermone with a sondry miracle. For tyll he proue me that by scrypture/ I denye yt playnely. For syth neyther scrypture teacheth yt, nor the catholyke chyrch preacheth yt, nor any reason proueth yt: I maye well and boldely denye yt, and so I do. For I se well his falsed for whych he fayneth yt. He seeth miracles wrought by god plentuousely in hys chyrche, and that thereby his chyrche and the fayth therof is confermed/ and therfore to brynge at the lestewyse some parte therof in questyon, he wold saye that we fynde not specyall miracles done for euery poynte. But I say no more dyd the apostles neyther, nor Tyndale shall neuer proue yt. For yf he wyll proue me that/ he muste proue me trew, not onely the thyng that hym selfe sayth, whych is more then euer he shall proue trew/ that is to wyt that they proued euery sermon wyth a sondry miracle/ but also that eyther they neuer preched but one artycle in one ser- mone. Or yf they preached many/ he muste then proue me two thynges/ one, that they confyrmed that sermon wyth as many miracles as they preached poyntes/ a nother that they shewed the people that the miracles whyche they then dyd, was so many miracles for so many poyntes/ for ellys myght all those myracles be done for the profe of one of those poyntes, and all the remanaunt vnpro[Ei]ued. For yf Tyndale wyll say that thinge neded not, for as mych as any one miracle suffysed to proue them all, syth yt proued hym a trew preacher: then shall Tyndale say lo the thynge that I wolde haue hym saye/ for then hym selfe proueth that it neded not that they sholde proue euery sermone wyth a seuerall myracle made amonge one people/ nor peraduenture any one sermone neyther otherwyse then as by miracles shewed at other occasions bysyde theyr sermons, they proued them selfe holy men and goddes messengers. For we fynde many miracles done by them at suche tymes as they were not makynge of sermons. And yet when they dyd them in Crystes name/ we finde not alway that they added a specyall artycle of oure faith, whyche specyaltye they wolde haue by that miracle confermed. And thus ye se that here he affermeth one thinge that he shall- neuer proue/ whych thynge yet I wolde not vouche safe to speke of, sauynge that he doth it of an euill purpose. For hys mayster Martyne Luther when Erasmus layed agaynste hym for mannys fre wyll the doctryne of the olde holy saynts, whose fayth was approued by miracles: layed agaynst hym agayne, that though they dyd myracles, Erasmus yet coulde not proue ys any of them dyd a myracle specyally for that artycle, and therfore he wolde haue that artycle seme vn- proued as for any myracle. And this way taketh Tyndale now for the selfe same entent/ & therfore fayneth that the apostles confermed euery sermone wyth a sondrye myracle. But I dowte not but that yf we sholde bydde Tyndale here or Luther hym selfe, proue vs euery artycle of his fayth whych he wolde we sholde wene were ys fayth that the apostles preached/ yf we sholde I say byd them proue vs, ys the apostles confermed euery artycle therof by a sondry myracle: they shold seeke in scrypture tyll theyr eyen were sore ere they founde it. Moreouer Tyndales wordes fyghte to gether, and one parte can not agre wyth an other. For yf these wordes be trew that they preued euery sermon with a sondry myracle/ then is it false that he sayth here also, that is to wyt of myracles, as many be wryten as nedeth. For yf it be trew that Tyndale sayth, that thapostles confermed ,, euery sermon wyth a sondry miracle/ and that was not nedefull, but bycause it was nedefull that euery necessarye poynte of fayth that they preached, sholde be proued by [Eiv] miracle: yt foloweth that euery necessary poynte that they preached, they dyd proue by miracle. Then ferther yf euery necessary poynte that they preached they preued by miracle, bycause yt was nedefull ys yt sholde be, for cre- dence to be geuen to that point for our soules helth: it was nedefull then for the conseruacion of the same credence, yf the credence coulde not be kepte wythout wrytynge, that of euery suche necessary poynt of fayth and necessarye doctryne of theyrs, wythout whych by- leued we canne not be saued/ there were one miracle wryten at the leste. But there ys not of euery suche artycle one miracle wrytyn: ergo yt is not trewe that Tyndale goth aboute to proue, that the miracles as many be wryten as nede/ and that euery necessary thynge is wryten. And veryly yf euery thynge that we sholde necessaryly by- leue, had ben thentent of god to haue it put in wrytynge/ and that vt hadde ben also necessary that euery poynt were preued by one mir- acle / and not suffycyent that the prechers were proued by miracles them selfe, & therby their doctrine to be byleued: yt were very prob- able then, both that ye wryters wolde haue wryten some thinges mych more open and playne then they haue done/ and also that of euery necessary poynte of fayth, they wolde haue wryten one miracle at the leste. But now syth god entended not to gyue his new lawe by bokes, but specyally by the necessary poyntes therof wryten in mennys hartes/ wherof hym selfe wolde be the specyall inwarde mayster: he hath prouyded ye scrypture to serue for parte, but not to serue alone for all. And syth suche myracles as be wryten therin, suffyse to proue ys apostles goddes trew preachers/ and therfore neded not myracles to be wryten for euery poynte of theyr preachynge: no more neded there to be myracles done for euery poynt of theyr preachynge. And for farther profe therof / how many thynges preached the apostles by theyr pystles, wyth whyche we rede not that they sente by the messengere for euery poynte a myracle. And thus good readers here ye se fyrste that thys poynt of Tyndales preachynge muste be better proued/ whyche poynt thus reproued, answereth and reproueth clerely dyuerse other places of hys boke hereafter. But yet is it farther to be consydered & wayed in hys wordes ys he sayth, that the pyth and the substaunce in generall of euery thynge necessary to our [Ei] soules helth, both of what weought to byleue, and what we ought to do/ was wryten. So that what so euer we ought to byleue or do, that same is wryten expressely/ or drawen of that whyche is wryten. More. In these wordes though I fynde lakke of trouth/ yet I sumwhat alow hys wyt/ as our sauyour sayed by ye wykked bayly, whyche though he played the false shrewe for hys mayster/ prouyded yet wylyly sumwhat for hym selfe. And so playeth Tyndale here. For now that he playnely per- ceyueth that the doctryne is playnely false, whyche hys mayster Luther & hym selfe to, haue taught so playnely bytwen them all thys whyle/ that is to wyt that there is no necessary trouth to be byleued, but yf it be proued by playne & euydent scrypture: now cometh Tyndale and seeth that they shall be put to flyghte and fayne to runne awaye / and therfore wylyly prouydeth a startynge hole, steppynge from playne and euydent scrypture theyr old specyall playne euydent wordes, vnto darke debatable termes of generall pyth and substaunce, and of drawynge out and deducynges and depen- dynge vppon scrypture/ vppon euery whyche worde he maye make an argument when it cometh to the poynte. But yet yf he wolde honestly stande to hys taclynge in thys poynt, and gyue vs ys lyke lybertye that hym selfe wyll take/ and neyther vse false deduccyons of hys owne, nor refuse our deduccyons yf we deduce them well: we wolde neuer fynde faute in thys poynte. But now let vs deduce a thyng neuer so strayght, it can not be alowed. Let hym selfe drawe it neuer so farre a wry/ yet wyll he swere ys it is ryght inough. I shall gyue you for the more clerenesse one ensample of eyther syde. We saye that syth our sauyour hath hym selfe promysed in tge gospell, that hym selfe and hys holy spyryte shall be wyth his chyrche all dayes vnto the ende of the worlde: yt foloweth say we therof, that hys chyrch shall neuer fayle as longe as the worlde lasteth. And bycause our sauyour sayth in lykewyse, that hys holy spyryte euer abydynge wyth hys chyrche, shall teche his chyrch all thynges, and lede them into euery trouth, and put them in remembraunce of all that he hym selfe had or wolde say vnto them: we deduce theruppon ys he wyll not suffer hys chyrche fall in to the erronyouse bylefe of any dampnable vntrouth/ but lede them into the trouth ys is the contrary of that vntrouth. And syth he sayed not the holy gooste shall wryte vnto you [Eiv] all thynges, nor shall wryte you all trouth/ but shall lede you into all trouth: we deduce theruppon that the bylefe where into ys spiryte of god ledeth vs and planteth it in our harte, is as good and as sure to saluacyon of oure soules wythout any wrytynge at all, as yf it were wryten in parchement wyth golden letters and Crystes owne hande. Here haue I shewed you a sample of oure deduccyons/ whyche I truste euery man may se that we draw it not farre of, but that the scrypture well and clerely maynteneth oure deducynge therof And the sample also that I shew you serueth mych for our mater agaynst Tyndale, that contendeth and laboreth to proue that we be bounde to byleue nothyng but goddys promyses/ and here he seeth that god promysed not to put all thynge in wrytynge, but that the holy gooste sholde teche vs by ledynge vs into euery trouth. Now shall I shewe you a sample of Tyndales deduccyon vppon scrypture, whyche as god wolde he bryngeth forth hym selfe in thys same present chapyter, to the entent that ye sholde not lakke a shew/ wherby ye shall se how playnely he proueth hys holy doctryne by the holy scrypture. The scrypture sayeth, loue thy neygh- our as thy selfe. Now vppon this texte body of Cryste and saye masse to. How other men wyll alowe thys Tyndale. They wyll happely demaunde where yt is wryten that women sholde bapiyse. Veryly in this commaundement, loue thy neyghbour as thyselfe/ yt is wryten that they may and ought to mynistre not onely baptisme, but all other sacramentes also in tymeof nede, yf they be so necessarye as they preache them. More. Lo syr here ye se that yf the inasse be so necessary as the chyrche techeth/ whyche sayth and hath ordeyned that it is necessary to be sayd vnto the parysshe at the leste wyse euery sondaye: yf the preste be not at home, then some good wyfe maye for a nede steppe to the awter and saye masse in hys stede/ bycause the scrypture sayth, loue thy neyghbour as thy selfe. What is there that these folke maye not proue by scrypture/ yf they may deduce it thus and haue theyr deduccyon alowed. Oza made as good deduccyon as thys, and yet had [Ei] no thanke. For he thoughte that bycause of the com- maundement, thou shalt honour thy lorde god/ he myghte & was bounden to set hys hande vnto stayeng and kepynge vp of the arche of the testament that was aboute to fall. But god taughte other men by that mannys sodayne deth/ that he was to malapert to medle wyth ys kynde of goddys honour that was not mete for hym. And Tindale bycause a woman muste loue her neygh- boure as her selfe: wyll haue her not touche the arche but the blessed bodye of god, and bodely consecrate yt her self / which neyther the blessed mother of Crist, nor ys hyghest angell in heuen, durste euer presume to thynke, bycause god had not appoynted them to that offyce. Suche deduccyons vppon scrypture made they of lykelyhed that toke vppon them in the old testament more then theyr parte cam to/ as Chore and Abyron, and the kynge Ozias, that wolde nedes playe the preste and encence god hym selfe/ for whyche honorable seruyce our lorde sent h m shame and sorow Now yf Tyndale aske me why a woman maye crysten & not con- secrate syth both be sacramentes: I can answere hym the comen answere, that though both be necessarye/ yet both be not lyke great then the ordynaunce of goddes spyryte/ whyche I se ys god hath taught his chyrche, and ellys wolde he not suffer them to byleue that yt were well done, wherof no man is bounden to geue a precyse cause. But yt were ouer mych boldenes to thynke that we coulde precysely tell ys cause of euery thynge that yt pleaseth god to deuyse/ though Tyndale and his spirituall sort will not obay goddes byddyng, tyll them self as he sayth haue enserched & founden the very full cause why. It is to me for all Tyndales deduccyon a greater questyon yet, sauyng for the custume of Cristes catholyke chyrch/ why a woman may crysten, then why she may not consecrate. For surely syth god sent out onely men to baptyse: I wolde set no woman thereto for any nede, no more then to be a confessour, and assoyle men of theyr synnys for nede/ sauynge yt I se ys tone euer vsed euery where in Cristes hole chyrche, [Eiv] and the consent of holy sayntes approu- 2, ynge and allowyng the same. And in consecratynge neuer woman dyd yt/ nor good man byleued that any woman myghte do yt. Whyche bylyef yf yt were false: I doute not but the spiryte of god techynge his chyrche, wolde ere this haue led his chyrche into the contrarye trewth accordynge to Crystes promyse. But now as I say ye se by Tyndales ensample, for what entent and purpose he putteth in his deducynge & drawyng of articles of the fayth out of the scrypture/ wherein he may as well byleue what he wyll and take what he lyste, not of ys tradycyon of Crystes catholyque chyrche, but of the tradycyon of Martyne Luthers lemman/ as frame hym selfe a fayth by a deduccion of scripture deduced in such a In the same manner he draweth out of scrypture in hys boke of obedyence, and in thys boke also, that a frere may marye a nonne by the authoryte of saynt Poule. For beyng asked where he fyndeth yt in scrypture / he sayth yt is wryten in these wordes to Timothe, a byshoppe muste be vnreprouable and the husbande of one wyfe. shall come false prophetes that shall for- bede maryage. And in this texte also, yt is better to mary then to burne. Is not this conclusyon trow ye well deduced? In ys fyrst bycause saynte Poule dyd putte in this word one, to forbyd and exclude any mo then one: Tyndale deduceth that a bysshoppe muste nedes haue one/ and thereby maketh saynte Poule false in a nother place, where he counsayleth & wysshyth that he sholde rather haue none. In the seconde texte bycause saynt Poule condemneth them that wolde saye, yt were not lawfull for any man to mary: Tyndale deduceth that euery man maye mary, though hym self haue made vnto god a contrary promyse byfore/ & myght as well deduce ys no man maye be forbode to mary, though he haue a wyfe all redy. For the frere is as well and as clerely forboden to mary by the scryptures, that forbedeth hym the breche of his vowe: as is the man forboden to mary that hath a wyfe all redye. And vppon the thyrde texte, bycause saynt Poule sayth that yt iS better to mary then to burne: Tyndale deduceth ys it is better for a frere to marye, then to forbere lechery/ & consydereth not that when he breketh his vow and weddeth an harlot, then he burneth both bodye and soule, fyrste here in [Ei] fyre of foule fylthy luste, and after thys worlde in euerlastynge fyre of hell. Is not thys conclusyon wor- shypfully deduced vppon scrypture? It is meruayle that he deduceth it not rather vppon ye texte that he speketh of here: Loue thy neygh- bour as thy selfe/ and vppon thys texte also: Do to another as thou woldest be done to thy selfe. These haue yet some better colour for Luther and hys lemman/ and I doute not but he wyll fynde them at laste, and saye that hys maryage is grounded there, bycause he loueth her wyth suche a lewde lousy loue, as the lewde lousy louer in lechery loueth hym selfe/ and is so ryghtuousely dysposed, ys he wyll neuer desyre that she shall lye wyth hym, but when he is euen as well content that hym selfe shall lye wyth her. Thys that we saye now in sporte/ he wyll saye ones in erneste I warraunt you. Now for the declaracyon of hys purpose, in drawynge & deducynge of thartycle of theyr faythlesse fayth out of scrypture of god, these ensamples suffyse/ and therfore I shall procede farther. Now nexte he commeth to the purpose, to proue you that euery necessary thyng that we be bounden eyther to byleue or to do, is wryten in scrypture. And now harke I praye you how properly the good man proueth it. These are hys wordes. Tyndale. For yf that I were bounden to do or byleue vnder payne of losse of my soule, any thynge that were not wryten nor depended of that whyche is wryten: what holpe me the scrypture that is wryten. More. Lo here is hys fyrste argument that he setteth forth in the fore fronte of the feld, as a specyall stronge bande. Whyche argument who so well aduyse and consyder: yf hym selfe haue wyt, shall playnely saye that it commeth out of a mad mannys mouth. For by thys reason tyll the gospellys were wryten, euery man myghte haue refused all the doctryne of Cryst in euery poynt that was not wryten in ys scrypture before his day, nor drawen out therof by a lytell streyghter lyne then Luther draweth his. And when Cryste taught them the counsayle of virginyte and many other holesome thynges aboue the perfeccyon of theyr olde lawe: they myght haue sayd, shew me thys in wrytyng. And then yf he had answered that hym [Eiv] selfe beynge suche as he was, and for suche testyfyed by wrytyng, and by the worde of hys father, and by hys owne wonder- ouse workes, owed to be byleued of them in euery thyng vppon payne of the losse of theyr soules: they myghte haue sayed agayn as Tyndale sayth now/ yf we be bounden vppon the payne of losse of our soules to beleue any thynge that is not wryten nor dependeth of that whyche is wryten, what holpe vs the scrypture that is wryten? Thys tale of Tyndales myghte they haue tolde vnto Cryst hym self, agaynst the sacrament of baptysme & the sacrament of the awter to. Now when saynt Poule in his pystle to the Corynthyes sayed, I wyll order the remanaunt when I come my selfe: they sholde by Tyndales reason haue sent hym hys pystle agayne and saye/ If we shall be bounden to do any thynge vnwryten, what auayleth vs all that euer thou wrytest? But there nedeth no places of scrypture to thys blasphemouse foly of Tindale spoken agaynst ye scripture/ bycause god hath taught & left some parte of hys pleasure wythout scrypture. For yf a man wryte certayne rules to hys howsholde seruauntes, and yet gyue them certayne besyde by his owne mouth, such as peraduenture shold nede no warnyng in wrytynge, bycause the contynuall vse and excercyse of them coude not suffer them to be forgotten (in whych kynde of com- maundementes be the blessed sacramentes so dayly vsed in Crystes chyrch, that forgoten they can not be, nor lefte they shall not be for all the besynesse that these heretykes the deuyls doctours can make) yf thys lordes seruauntes were so wyse to lerne thys lesson of Tyndale and saye, naye syr and ye leue these thynges vnwryten then a straWe for all that ye haue wryten: myghte not the mayster saye that hys menne were a sorte of malaperte folysshe knauys. And thys is as ye se Tyndales fyrst reason, wherwyth he full properly proueth vs that the apostles wrote all togyther that euer we sholde be bounden to byleue. Whyche reason ye se your selfe is not worth one rysshe/ but rather a playne vnreasonable blasphemy, folysshely spoken agaynst the scrypture of god/ whych he sayth serueth for nought yf god bynde vs to byleue any worde of hys bysyde. Now let vs procede to the seconde/ whych is I promyse you very seconde, for any frute that ye shall fynde therin. These are hys wordes. [Fi] Tyndale. In as mych as Cryste and all his apostles warned vs, that false prophetes shold come with false myracles, euen to deceyue the electes yf it were possible: wherwyth sholde the trew precher confounde the false, excepte he brought trew myracles to confounde the false, or ellys autentique scrypture of full authoryte allredy amonge the people. More. Grete cause haue we to gyue thanke to god / whose goodnesse wresteth the tonges of heretyques and maketh them there speke most agaynst them selfe, where they wene to speke for them selfe the beste, as he serueth Tyndale hrre. Fot these be the wordes that haue wysshed hym to say. For where he meaneth that all must be wryten bycause that ellys there were nothynge that coude confounde false prophetes that sholde come and shewe false myracles, excepte the trewe prechers sholde shewe trewe myracles agaynste them: I answere to Tyndale two thynges. The fyrste is that it is playne false that Tyndale taketh for a playne truth/ that is to wyt that the trewe prechers coude haue no thynge to confounde the false prophetes that sholde come wyth false myracles, but yf all the trouth were wryten in scrypture autentyque amonge the people. And that yf it so were/ then the trewe precheours had inough wythout trew myracles to confounde the false prophetes bryngynge false myracles. The seconde thynge that I answere hym wyth is thys/ that yf it were trewe that he sayeth, that wythout myracles nothynge wolde suffycyently serue in suche case, excepte that euery necessary thynge were wryten in autentyque scrypture: yet syth hym selfe confesseth that trewe myracles myghte in suche case suffycyently serue the trewe precheour, and confounde the false, and saue the fayth vp ryghte/ and that he can not saye but that god is able to do them when so euer he lyste, and wyll neuer leue hys chyrche destytute of helpe necessary, and therfore in suche necessyte wyll not fayle to do them. Tyndale must nedes agre (be he neuer so lothe to comme to it) that god hath no necessyte for auoydynge of suche parell, to prouyde that hys chyrche sholde haue euery necessary thynge delyuered vnto them, and euer more kepte wyth them in autentyke scrypture / whyle hym selfe by hys promyse wolde euer dwelle wyth them, and hadde for tlie profe of theyr fayth agaynste false prophetes and theyr false myracles, [Fiv] the myghtye meane of trew myracles, and oute of measure greter in his owne hande. Whyche meane of miracles for ys trew profe of his worde among mortall menne/ is and hath bene and euer shall be, the fynall peremptorye stoppe agaynste all contradyccyon. This secunde answere is open and playne inough in yt selfe. And for as mych as the fyrste appereth not peraduenture so fully playne at the fyrste syght/ I shall make yt clerer. When Tyndale sayth that excepte all were wryten that we be bounden to byleue or to do, there were ellys nothyng saue miracles to confounde false prophetes that sholde come with false miracles: ye perceyue well that he presup- poseth that yf euery such thyng be wryten in autentique scripture, then wythout myracles the mater is saue inough / and the trew preachers able inough to confounde the false by the scripture alone. For but yf he saye so, he sayth no more for the alledgyng of scrypture then for the alledgynge of the fayth wythout scrypture. Now Tyndale tellynge vs thus/ we muste fyrst wyt of hym whych false prophetes he meaneth, Paynyms, Turkes, or heretikes. If he meane Panynyms or Turkes, then goeth he very farre wyde / for the trew preachers can not confounde them wyth our autentyke scrypture/ for yt is not autentyke amonge them, but they saye that yt is false. If he meane heretykes, he goth almoste as farre wyde/ for they wyll also when they lyste denye for holy scrypture any parte of holy scrypture that proueth agaynste theyr purpose/ as they denye the boke of Machabees, bycause yt proueth purgatory and prayours for them that are dede/ and denye the pystle of saynte Iamys, by- cause yt reproueth a bare fayth wythout good workes. Now yf they admytte the scrypture for scrypture, yet are ye neuer the nere/ for they wyll denye the trew sense therof, and obstynately defende a false/ so that the trew preacher and that false prophete shall be styll as farre a sonder, as yf they denyed the very scrypture yt selfe. Now when he speketh of confoundynge them: we must wyt of hym what he meaneth by confoundyng them. Whether he meane that the trewe preacher shall make the false prophete asriamed/ or that he shall make the people perceyue theyr doctryne for false. As for makyng the false prophetes ashamed: ye se your selfe they be so shamelesse that yt wyll [Fi] not be, for ye se they wedde nonnes openly. And when they be not ashamed to loke folke in the face, after that shame. ful sacrylege and abomynable bychery: whereof wyll they be ashamed? Now if he meane that the trewe preacher shall by thau- tenque wrytyng, make the people perceyue ys false prophete false: I saye ys shall he not do by scrypture any thyng more largely, then he shall do the same by the worde of god vnwryten/ whyche worde Tyndale wolde haue no man byleue. For the perceyuynge wherof, suppose me now that the trew preacher and the false prophete came to gether to dyspute the trouth in a great audyence of people, vppon some suche artycle as the false prophete wolde teache agaynst the comen fayth of the catholyque chyrche. As let me se for ensample/ whether freres may wedde nonnes. Tut nay, ys can serue for no sample, yt is to clere and to farre vndysputable for any false prophete to fynde any reasonynge therin/ as ys thynge whych neuer syth the world was pepled, could haue founden any man to thy tyll now/ nor yet now neyther fyndeth any that so thynketh, as many wreches as so sayth and so dothe/ nor yt were not possyble for the false prophete to fynde any colour therin, but such as all ys world wolde wonder at/ excepte suche bestes as luste to se yt so for hatered and despyght of honestye. But let vs take therfore for ensample, some suche heresye as hath bene holden & dysputed of olde. And what rather then one of the greattest? that is to wyt that heresye that Arrius held and his great company' that our sau. your Cryste was not one egall god wyth his father. Suppose me therfore I saye ys some false prophete were so deuel- yshe as to preache that poynt agayne/ and that he hadde by false preachynge wonne vnto hym (as Arrius had in his tyme) myche people all redy of euery state and degre/ and that he sholde then come in an open audience of a mayne multytude, to dyspute wyth any trew preacher that wolde offer hym self to defende in that poynte the parte and bylefe of the catholyque chyrche. Now when the trew preacher and the false prophete were comen to gether, and fallen in dyspycyons in two pulpettes on hygh yt all ye people myght here them/ and that ys tone alledged dyuerse textes of scrypture for the trouth, & the tother as many for the false parte, and eche of them glose agaynst glose/ & when the trew preacher wolde laye therto the consente of all the olde douctours, & [Fiv] of all the catholyque chyrch of Cryste this fyftene hundred yere, the false prophete wolde saye agayne as the false prophete Luther sayeth hym selfe, I set not by Hyerome, I set not by Austayne, I care not for an hunderd Gregories, I care not for a thousande Cyprianes, I laye for me the playne worde of god. And for the catholyque chyrche that thou callest ys chyrch of Cryste, it is but a multytude of mortale men, whom yf I sholde byleue for ye multitude, I must rather byleue the Paynyms or the Machometanys, whych be many mo. And thy sayntes whom thou layest for the be dede/ but the worde of god that I laye for me, lyueth and shall lyue for euer. And the chyrch of Cryste is vnknowen to men, but yt is well knowen to god/ oute of hose hande no man can take them as our sauyour sayth, but though they slepe now and reste in hope as ys scripture sayth, my fleshe shall reste in hope / they shall yet in the daye of the lorde awake at ye blast of the trumpe, & euer after lyue wyth the lord in his reigne. And of these I doute not was that holy man Arrius & many a nother holy man of his secte. Now yf agaynste all this, the trew preacher fall in farther dys- pycyons agayne / as well about hys fyrste questyon as about the chyrch, wyth dyuerse other that incydently fall in debate bytwene them/ and then for the fynall ende & playneste profe conclude and reste vppon the scrypture, and saye that he hath proued his parte well thereby, and that his textes be clere, and the textes of the tother parte are falsely wrested, and hys owne answeres effectuall, and the tothers but sophystycall/ and then the false prophete for hym selfe agayne saye, that he ioyeth mych that theyr dysputacyon is come to so good a poynt/ for he knoweth well ys he hath alleged the scryp, tures ryght, and constrewed them in theyr trew sense, and that his aduersary is aduersary of the playne open trouth, and preacheth and teacheth agayn his owne conscyence, and therby synneth agaynste the holy goost, whyche shall neuer be for- geuen in thys worlde nor in the worlde to come/ for whose irremyssyble synne hym selfe is full sory, and ex- horte hym to remember the false prophete Balam, and beware by tyme, leste he come to lyke ende/ and then say yt he is yet glad agayn on tother syde, & hyghly thanketh ys lord, that hathe by his trew teachynge there opened the yies of ys peple about them, ys they now clerely se the lyght of trouth/ whyche hath now putte awaye the darkenes of theyr igno[Fi]raunce, wherin the blynde leders the false popysh prechers haue led them wronge all this whyle byfore/ the errour of whom he douteth not but that god hath by hym made them now so playnely to perceyue, that he well dare and so dothe make them all his iudges, whether of them both hath defended his parte better/ and therfore prayth them to speke and shew theyr myndes therin / for the apostle sayth while other speke, the congregacyon muste iudge / and euery man (sayth Luther) for his owne soule byleueth or byleueth not, vppon his owne parell/ & therfore vppon his owne bylyef what he sholde byleue and what not, muste nedes be iudge hym self: now good readers when they thus haue spoken bothe/ thynke ye by your trouth that the people vnlerned of theyr audyence, shalbe mete to dyscerne and iudge whyther of them hath spoken better, and whyther parte is bytwene them better proued by scrypture? Are not the people well lykely wyth suche doutefull dyspycyons to be rather ledde out of the trouth, then well confermed in yt? namely syth many of them shalbe corrupted in corners, & drawen in to that false fayth byfore, as the guyse of heretyques is. But now how myche parell were there more, yf this false prophete sholde as Tyndale putteth his case, come forth with false miracles to/ and in the ende of his dysputacyon and his holy exhortacyon ther- uppon, saye farther to the people thus: Dere brethern in the loue of the lorde the father & hys onely begoten sonne our sauyour Cryste, that carn into this wreched worlde to shew yt ensample of mekenesse, and not to make hym selfe as great a god as his father, as the popyshe preachers preache vnto you/ whych therby make you byleue that our mayster Cryste passed in pryde ye proud angell Lucifer, that for the same pryde was depryued of heuen and throwen in to hell, where he reigneth as prynce vppon all the sonnys of pryde: I am come as ye se sent by the blessed spyryte of the lorde, that hath prayed for you wyth syghes vnspekable, that ye myght be delyuered from thys errour, that this false preacher here & I haue dysputed vppon in your presence/ where as you se & I am sure perceyue full well, that I haue wyth the worde of god ouercome hym vtterly though he bable on styll. But yet bycause the trouth standeth not in wordes but in vertue and power of dede: yt pleaseth god that for the strengthynge of weke conscyences, I shall shew you more profe of the glorye of god. For syth [Fiv] this euyll man misse ledde wyth an euyll spyryte, wold lede you styll in a wronge waye, and make you mysse vnderstande the scrypture/ sayeng that I take yt wrong & teache you false, where as I made your selfe iudges of the mater: I shall now call god to iudge it hym selfe in your syghte, by some shew of his specyall presens and power. And then after this spoken/ sholde call vppe vnto hym some well knowen blynde man, and in the syght of all the people sodaynly make hym se. What sayth Tyndale to thys? here is hys owne case. Were the autentyque scripture in thys case lykely to stay the people? surely me semeth naye. For though the scrypture be trew in yt selfe: yet syth yt is not so playne but that many great dyffycultees aryse thereuppon / in whyche though he, whyche vppon the studye therof hath bystowed many yeres, may perceyue the trew parte from the false: yet vnto the vnlerned yt shalbe lykely full ofte, that in suche dyspycyons the false parte maye seme treweste. And then how mych more yf he se in his owne syght myracles set therto. But now say I that on the tother syde the worde of god vnwryten may stay all to gether. For I say that the trewth of that artycle taught and byleued as the chyrche wythout any doute or questyon byleueth/ may be so surely grauen in mannys harte, that though he neuer haue redde nor herde neyther any scrypture in that poynte:. yet presupposynge yt for an vndouted trouth, he shall set at nought all the false wrested scrypture of the false prophete, and all his false myracles to / and shall euer conster the scripture by the knowen artycle of the catholyque fayth, whych was tought and byleued by- fore those textes of scrypture were wryten, and hath yet the same trouth now that yt hadde then, not wythstandynge all the textes that seme to saye the contrary. And by this fayth in the worde of god vnwryten in theyr bokes/ and yet wryten in theyre soules: dyd there many martyrs stand and shede theyr blood in wytnesse of the trouth therof, that neuer red nor herde the scrypture in theyr dayes/ and wold in the same word vnwryten, wyth goddes grace haue wyth- standen false myracles to, whych had yet bene vndoutedly the sorest pynche, sauyng for the mo and more meruelouse myracles that them selfe saw or byleued done on the tother syde for the trouth. But I say therfore as I haue often sayd byfore, that as for miracles he hath so specially kepte for the profe of ye trouth, [Fi] that all the myracles whyche the paynyms or other infydeles haue done excepte heretyques / he hath euer made his trew preachers to do greater myracles agaynste them, & by the greater miracles to destroye them/ as he dyd in Moyses and in Heliseus, & in his holy apostles, & other holy sayntes after them. But as for heretykes, god hathe neuer sufferd them to do any miracles at all/ bycause he wolde haue by ys marke of miracles hys very trew chyrche knowen the false chyrches of heretyques. Nor neuer shall he suffer them to do any, tyll ys great archeheretyke Antycryste come hym selfe/ whyche as helpe me god I fere be very nere hys tyme, and that Luther is his very fore goar & his baptiste, to make redy his way in the deserte of this wreched world/ and Tindale, frere Huskyn, and Swynglius, his very fals prophetes to preache for hym. But when he shall come hym selfe and worke wonders, to peruert (yf yt myght be) the very chosen to:. yet shall he not worke miracles alone, but god shall for his chyrche in miracles farre passe hym/ for anger whereof he shall kyll them and truste all in strength of sword. And bycause he shall haue so many wayes to turne the peple wronge: god shall not suffer the wreche longe, but shall shorten his dayes/ and puttynge strength and miracle to gether, shall kyll hym wyth the spiryte or blaste of hys holy mouth. And thus good readers ye playnely now perceyue that syth the scrypture alone agaynst heretyques and miracles maye not suffyciently serue to vn- lerned people, otherwyse then maye the bylyefe wythout the scrip- ture/ and also ys heretykes shall do no miracles tyll Antecryste come/ and yet then shall haue also greater miracles wrought agaynste hym, and that his tyme shalbe but shorte, and hym selfe fynally by miracle destroyed and kylled: ye se proued playnely, ys Tyndales secunde reason wyth whych he wold proue that the apostles lefte no necessary thynge vnwriten, hath in yt no reason at all. Tyndale. Some man wolde aske, how dyd god contynue his generacyon from Adam to Noe, and from Noe to Abraam, and so to Moyses without writyng but with teachynge fro mouth to mouth. I answere fyrste that there was no scrypture in the worlde all the whyle/ that shall they proue when our lady hath a new sonne. More. Tyndale sayth that some man wolde aske this question. [Fiv] But he knoweth well inough that I laye this agaynst hym in my dialoge, bycause he so precysely sayth that nothynge maye be certaynely knowen to be byleued but by scrypture. And now he answereth me that our ladye shall haue a newe sonne, ere I can proue that there was not scripture from the bygynnynge. He wayeth his wordes wysely, when he sayth that our lady shall haue a new sonne fyrst/ whych he myght as well say by euery woman ys is passed this world, sauyng y our lady neuer had a new sonne bysyde our sauyour Lriste, is none artycle of his false fayth, as hym selfe playnely confesseth/ bycause yt is not playnely wryten in scrypture. But is not this a proper answere now? where as agaynst hys false grounde that there can be no trewe fayth but yf it be Wryten in scrypture, I obiected agaynste hym the fayth of many good faythfull men/ in whose dayes we can not preue that theyr fayth was wryten, & yet we dowte not but that they were good & faythfull: he sayth I can not proue that they had no scrypture. If he wyll saye (as he doeth) that they coude haue no good and sure fayth wythout scryp- ture/ and wyll also confesse (as he doth) that they had good and sure fayth: he must hym selfe proue that they had scrypture/ and not tell me that our lady shall haue a newe sone ere I proue that they had no scrypture. For it is inough for me, ys our lady shall haue two new sonnes ere Tindale proue that some of those faythfull folke in the- fyrst or seconde generacyon, had any wrytynge at all/ and that our lady shall haue fyue new sonnes, ere Tyndale proue yt the faythfull people had before Moyses dayes any scrypture suche as Tyndale muste mene, but yf he go about to begyle vs wyth sophystycall equyuocacion. For our mater is not of scrypture, as it is taken for bare wrytynge, suche as euery scryueners boye wryteth in hys maysters shoppe/ but as it sygnyfyeth suche holy wrytynge as god causeth to be wryten & byndeth folke to byleue, vppon the parell of theyr soule helth. And then I saye yet agayne that it is inough for me that our lady shall haue fyftene new sonnys, ere Tyndale be able to proue me that some of those whom I alledge & he confesseth for faythfull folke, had any suche scrypture at all. And Tyndale felynge full well that thys poynte prykketh hym, shrynketh hyther and thyder thereat, and seketh many shyftes. And for all the shyftes that he fyndeth here, bycause they all satysfye not hym selfe: he is fayne after[Gi]warde in hys answere to my dyaloge, to seke vp some new/ & sayth that in Noes dayes when the flode came, there were no mo lefte that byleued ryght but those that were saued in the shyppe. In whyche place he iesteth vppon thatvertuose connynge man Nicholas de lira, sayeng <2Lira delirat.>2 But it is more easy for Tyndale to make a mokke vppon hys name/ then to obtayne his vertue and lernyng. But what winneth Tyndale by that answere there? yf he sayed trewe/ yet were he neuer the nere. For yf the hole worlde were at that tyme fallen from the fayth saue those few: yet were it for my purpose suffycyent that the trewe fayth had fyrste from god to man, and so forth fro man to man, comen by mouth without scrypture vnto those few/ though all the remanaunt that hadde herde thereof hadde then bene fallen fro the bylyefe thereof, excepte onely those few/ as all the knowen nacions of the worlde that hath herd of Crystes fayth and holy scrypture to, be now fallen from both twayne, saue onely these few that yet remayne. And of them, some fall from the fayth and from theffecte of scrypture by false interpretacyon / as they that fall fro the sacramentes, & that so constre the scrypture, that they wolde make yt saye that freres may wedde nonnes. Of both whych sortes yfthere went so many away that the remanaunt whyche were lefte were as few as were taken into Noes shyppe: yet shold alway those few be the very chyrch of god vppon erth by- cause of the ryght bylyef, all though that of those few some were nought of lyuyng. And amonge them shold there myracles of god contynue, to shew the presence of god, and strength them in the fayth, & make his chyrche knowen/ that such as are out, may fynde ys way to yt to come in yf they wyll/ as he ceaced not to walke wyth the Iewes by miracles all though ther were many nought, tyll he quyte forsoke them / whyche by his promyse he shall neuer do Crystes catholyque chyrche. Tyndale. God taught Adam greater thynges then to wrytte. More. If he meane of spirytuall reuelacyons, it maketh lytle to ys pur- pose/ yf of worldely thynges, I thynke well he taught hym thynges of greater necessyte, as peraduenture tyllage of the grounde. But as for wrytynge, I wene as long as he lyued, was founden yet longe after Adams dayes. For though Adam hadde as great a wit as any man hath hadde [Giv] synnys: yet he founde not out euery thyng that many a more mene wyt hath founden synnys/ excepte Tyndale tefl vs that Adam prented bokes, and made glasses, and shotte gonnes to. Tyndale. And that there was writyng in the world long ere Abraam,ye and ere Noe, do storyes testyfye. More. Full well. But there is none of those storyes any thynge sybbe to saynt Iohans gospell. He fyndeth not in them: <2Qui vidit testimonium perhibuit/>2 nor, <2verum est testimonium eius.>2 There were storyes, whyche as saynte Austayne sayth, wrote of thynges done thousandes of yeres byfore ye world was made. And though yt were proued as yt is not, yt there were wrytynge from the bygynnynge: yet as I sayed byfore, yt wolde not proue that there was holy scrypture that tyme/ whyche is the onely wrytynge that muste be proued, or ellys all that he proueth is as good vnproued. Tyndale. Not wythstandynge though there hadde bene no wrytynge: the preachers were euer prophetes gloryousein doynge myracles, where- wyth they confyrmed theyr preachynge. More. Thys is ryght well sayed and very largely/ and lakketh nothynge now, but euen to be as well and largely proued. Whych when he shall so largely proue me by playne scripture (wythout whych by Luthers owne rule, Luthers owne scoler maye not loke to be byleued) he shall haue myche a do I trow. For he sayth that by all this tyme whyche was ys space of so many hundred yeres, ys preachers were euer prophetes and gloryouse in doynge of miracles, wherwyth they confermed theyr preachynge. Veryly No we fynde that he confyrmed his preachyng wyth myracle, that was wyth the flode that drowned thewholeworlde. But ellys in that age from Adam to his day/ what myracles fyndeth Tyndale done by the preachers? Now from Noe to Abraam, how many myracles fyndeth he done by the preachers. Nor from Abraam to Moyses neyther, he fyndeth not very many/ so that yt wyll I wene be very harde for hym to proue, that the preachers dyd alwaye proue ill that whyle theyr preachynge by myracles. But I am very glad to here hym saye so/ and am contente [Gi] to discharge hym of ye profe, and agre that he sayeth trouth. And then say I that syth hym selfe agreeth that for ys profe of the prechers doctryne, prechynge all one thynge downe fro generacyon to generacyon by the space of so many hundred yeres, holy preachers and myracles were so necessary, that for the necessyte therof he presumeth that it was so: it is reason that he agre also, that by thys hole tyme of fyftene hundred yeres of Crystes chyrche, holy preachers wyth myracles haue ben as necessary. And then syth he muste also graunte that god hath as mych cure of the chyrche of hys sonne, as he had of any chyrche before: he muste graunte that of eche thynge necessary god hath as well prouyded for it, as euer he dyd for any. Wherof it foloweth that syth holy preachers and myracles were alwaye so necessary in the other, that god alwaye prouyded them so plentuousely, that they neuer lakked: he hath in lyke wyse all thys whyle prouyded, that in hys owne chyrche holy preachers and myracles haue also contynued and haue neuer lacked. And then foloweth forther, that syth in all thys whyle there hath neuer ben in any chyrche of heretykes (as many as haue ben of them) neyther saynt nor myracle/ but bothe twayne euer plentuousely contynued in thys onely chyrche, whyche is ys comen knowen catholyke chyrche of Cryste: theruppon foloweth it fynally, that onely it is the trewe chyrche of god/ and that all the other be false chyrches of the deuyll. Now yf Tyndale wyll saye that it is now not lyke/ for there is no cause neyther of holy preachers nor miracles, by cause we haue the scryptures / as Abraam sayed vnto the ryche gloton that lay in hell and wolde haue Lazarus sent into his fathers howse to gyue hys brethern warn- yng, they haue all redy Moyses and the prophetes/ and yfthey byleue not them no more wyll they byleue one that were come hense neyther: thys wyll not serue Tyndale. For they were not excusable whyche then hadde the scryptures, consyderynge that the scrypture had bene and yet euery age were well testyfyed with myracles, in that the prophetes and prechers therof, and the places where it was prechecl and occupyed in goddys seruyce, were by god illustrate and set out wyth myracles/ in so mych that he dyd not onely sende in to the worlde his prophetes and trewe preachers with myracles, but also by the bonys of them raysed and sent in to the worlde dede men also, to gyue the worlde warnynge to, [Giv] though he lysted not to do so mych at that wreches request. And fynally when all was to lytle, and that they fell to false constrewynge of the scrypture, and so byganne to multyply theyr false doctryne, that they made the better byleuynge folke the fewer and the false parte ys greater: he taryed not longe but cam hym selfe to reforme yt & bygynne his owne specyall chyrche wyth hys owne preachynge and hys holy apostles/ not wyth bare dyspycyons and berynge men in hande the wordes of the scrypture were playne inough/ but wyth plentuouse miracles, to reproue the false doctryne of the false pharysees ys had bygonne to teache contrary to theyr olde holy fathers byfore. And thus hath god euer synnis sent holy sayntes in to his chyrch, as the reason of his goodnesse requyred that he shold. And where these new pharisees these manyfolde sectes of heretykes, both now do, and fro ye bygynnynge haue done, mysse constre the scrypture of god agaynst the mynde of Cryste and his apostles: our lord sendeth and euer hath sent not onely good vertuous preachers agaynste them, but also reproueth and euer hath reproued theyr moste commen heresyes agaynste sayntes and sacramentes wyth dayly meruelouse miracles/ and neyther sufferth nor neuer suffred any one to be wrought amonge all them, but suche as he worketh sometyme, where he maketh an image to speke, or the blessed sacrament to blede, to detecte theyr dyspyghtfull dealynge, and make them be burned therfore/ where as they shall neuer fynde in scrypture that euer god suffred false miracle eyther by man or deuyll to be done to the confusyon of his trew prophete. And therfore yt is playne yet agayne that the catholyke chyrch is the trew chyrche, and all these heretykes congregacyons false. Tyndale. And beyonde that, god wrote his testament vnto them allway, both what to do, and what to byleue euen in sacramentes. For the sacrifices whych god gaue Adams sonnes, were no dumme popetrye or super- stycyouse mahometrye, but sygnes of the testament of god/ and ln them they red the worde of god as we do in bokes. More. Tyndale telleth vs here a nother fayre tale. But in thys I say as I sayed byfore in the tother / that hys tale lakketh but all that yt sholde haue, that is to wyt the profe. For ye shall here now how he wolde seme to proue yt. [Gi] Tyndale. The testament whyche god made wyth Noe, that he wolde no more drowne the worlde wyth water/ he wrote in the sacramet of the raynebowe. And the appoyntement made betwene hym and Abraam / he wrote in the sacrament of cyrcumcysyon. And therfore sayed Steuen, Actes.vij. he gaue them the testament of cyrcumcysyon / not that the outwarde cyrcumcysyon was the hole testament/ but the sacrament or sygne therof. For cyrcumcysyon preached goddys worde vnto them as I haue in other places declared. More. Is not this well proued now. He sheweth vs of sacriflces of cyrcum- cisyon, and of the raynebowe/ whycht he coupleth wyth sacryfyces and circumcysyon, and calleth yt a sacrament lyke the tother, by- cause he wolde haue vs wene that no sacrament eyther then dyd or now doth, any more profyt the soule then doth the raynebowe. Whyche raynebow whether god made new to make men sure of his promyse by the meruelouse new syght therof, or that it beynge but an apparaunce naturall by the reflexyon of the sonne/ I wyll not dyspute bycause of other mennys wrytynge. But thys I wote well, I se no man wryte therof that euer saw yt a fore. Nor yf it hadde neuer be sene yet/ there wolde I wene for all the naturall reasons that men make now therfore, neuer a man haue myssed yt. But as I saye were yt the tone wcre yt the tother/ god eyther made yt or appoynted yt but for a sygne of bodely helth and the worlde, to be preserued from vnyuersall flode/ where as sacryfyces and cyrcum- cysyon & mych more the blessed sacramentes of Crystes chyrche, perteyne to the soule helth/ not as bare sygnes, but as thynges well helpyng there vnto/ as prayour doth and all reuerent maner and deuout fashyon vsed by man therein. But thys is all Tyndales purpose to pull down the sacramentes and haue them taken for bare symple sygnes. For surely to couple the sacryfyce of Abell or the sacrament of circumcysyon wyth the sygne of the raynebow/ is almoste as well lykened as to lyken the matens that men synge at chyrche, or ys blessed sacrament at the masse, to the sygne of the sarasons hed. But now consyder how well these thynges proue his goostly pur- pose. He sayth that from Adam to Moyses god taught them in sacra- mentes alwaye both what they shold do & what they sholde byleue/ and he proueth yt bycause god dyd so in thre. And so this is hys argument, god dyd so thryes, ergo he dyd so alway/ god dyd so in thre, ergo he dyd so in al/ god [Giv] in sacramentes taught them some thynges, ergo in sacramentes he taught them all thynges. Where fyndeth Tyndale that god taught Abraam, what thynge the cyrcymcysyon sholde sygnyfye, or wherfore he sholde do yt, other then that he wolde haue hym and all hys do yt/ what morall vertue he shold vnderstande therby, as the cuttynge of and castynge awaye of all superfluouse carnall thynges, or any suche other thynge, what dyd he teche hym. Or where fyndeth he that to the people was any suche thynge preached therby, when the circumcisyon was geuen and commaunded. In the sacryfyce of Abell in kyllynge and offerynge the bestes / where fyndeth Tyndale that there was taught vnto Abell or any man ellys, that yt sholde sygnyfye the kyllyng of fleshely lustes or any suche other thynges/ sauynge that they sholde serue god in that maner, whyche yet we rather gather by reason then fynde yt wryten in scrypture. Where fyndeth he that Abraam was taught, that in offerynge vppe his sonne Isaac, and then the shepe in hys stede/ yt sholde sygnyfye the offerynge of Cryste vppon the crosse, or any thyng ellys, but his thankfull obedyence and profe of his faste fayth and hope in god. And though yt may appere in euery sacryfyce and in euery prayour vnto god, that men sholde loue god aboue all thynge: yet in what sacrifyce were they lerned to loue theyr neyghboure? Thys is a vayne tale of Tyndale whyche he shall neuer proue whyle he lyueth. And yet the better he proueth it yf he coulde proue yt/ the worse sholde he make his mater. For if sacramentes were wyth them in all that tyme able to be profytable wythout scrypture: then so may oures be now profytable wythout scrypture/ excepte he fynde therfore a prohybycyon in scrypture, whyche neyther h nthey lyue hys felowes euer founde yet, nor neuer shall fynd whyle they lyue. For where as they lay for a prohybycyon the wordes of Moyses in the Deuteronomy / commaundynge that no man shall adde nor mynyshe: they that laye that texte for a prohybycyon of oure sacramentes vnwryten, be as I shall shew you afterwarde surely to madde to lyue. Now seeth Tyndale this to be very trouth hym self, that yf sacra- mentes were wythout scrypture profytable vnto them, and stode them in the stede of scrypture: yt myght be by the [Gi] same reason in lykewyse profytable to vs, and stande vs in stede, whyche thynge destroyeth all his whole purpose. And therfore to answere that wythall/ he sayth that so <2yt myght in dede,yf that the wykked pope hadde>2 <2not taken away the sygnyfycacyons of our sacramentes from vs, as he bath robbed>2 <2vs (sayth Iyndale) of the trew sence>2 of <2all the scrypture.>2 Tyndale muste here tell vs whyche pope hath taken from vs the sygnyfycacyon of the sacramentes, and robbed from vs the trew sence of the scrypture. If any pope this.viii. hunderd yere (by all whych tyme Tyndale sayth they haue ben all nought) haue done any thyng therin contrary to the old popes ys were by the space of.vii. hundred yere nexte byfore that, which popes he denyeth not for good nor can not deny: let hym tell whyche, and wherin, and wherby he can proue yt. But that am I sure he shall neuer shew whyle he lyueth. For I wote well that the olde holy workes that haue bene made, as well by olde holy popes, as saynte Gregory, saynt Leo, and other/ as by olde holy doctours, as saynt Hyerom, saynt Austayne, and other concernynge as well the sygnyfycacyons of sacramentes, as the trew sence of scrypture: do consent and agre to gether agaynst Tyndale and Luther and frere Huskyn and all theyr fonde felowes. And yf Tyndale saye nay: lette hym shew me whyche olde holy popes were they, that euer hylde that the sacramente of the auter is suche a bare symple sygne, and sette but onely to sygnyfye the memoryall of Crystes passyon, and vnyte of hym and vs, wyth loue and concorde amonge our selfe/ & that it were synne to thinke yt were not brede styll as Luther sayth, or to thynke yt were any thynge ellys, as Tyn- dale & frere Huskyn sayth/ and great synne to worshyppe yt, as Luther, Huskyn, and Tyndale saye. And as concernynge the trew sence of scripture, whych he sayth the pope hath robbed from vs/ and meaneth the popes of eyght hundred yere last passed, whyche trew sence Tyndale now bryngeth agayne: let hym shew then whyche popes of the tother seuen hundred yere byfore, or whyche holy doctours of all that longe tyme byfore/ dyd constre the scrypture so, that any of them wold saye that a monke myght wedde a nonne. And lo thus ye se good readers in what worshyppefull wyse Tyndale proueth all his purpose. But now wyll we go farther. Tyndale. But in the tyme of Moyses when the congregacion was increaced, that they [Giv] must haue many preachers and also rulers temporall: then all was receyued in scrypture. More. Here is hys hole grounde wheruppon he wyll anone conclude, that syth all was then receyued in scrypture amonge the iewes/ so must it folowe that all was receyued by scrypture amonge crysten men. Whyche foloweth not as I wyll after shewe you, though he sayed trew/ in that he sayth that in the tyme of Moyses all was receyued in scrypture. But syth that theruppon is all hys hole mater grounded: let hym proue you that poynte fyrste. For ye consyder well that it is not inough to hym that they then receyued scrypture / but he must proue that then they receyued all in scrypture / and that euery thynge that they sholde do or byleue, was then delyuered them in scrypture. And therfore syth ys thys is the poynt and the thynge that he sayth and proueth not: let hym proue you thys well fyrste, and then go forther in goddys name. What profe he bryngeth ye shall se/ & how trewe it is ye shall sone iudge. Thus he sayth. Tyndale. All was then receyued in scrypture/ in so mych that Cryste and his apostles myghte not haue ben byleued wiihout scrypture for all theyr myracles. More. Lo thys is all the hole profe that euer he bryngeth forth for thys poynte, wheruppon hys hole purpose hangeth. And in dede it were  somwhat/ if it were as trew as it is false. For he neyther hath anv scripture to proue it/ & all reason is quyte agaynste it. Fyrste as for scrypture, though Cryste shewed to the iewes as the trouth was, that the scrypture made mencyon of hym: yet he neuer sayed vnto them as Tindale sayeth, that he myght not be byleued els/ nor no scryp- ture so sayth. He sayeth no more of scrypture then of saynte Iohan the baptyste. For he sayeth that the scrypture bereth wytnesse of hym, and so sayth he of saynt Iohan to. But bycause Tyndale compareth the scrypture with myracles, and setteth so lytell by goddes worde vnwryten: Cryste sayed sumwhat more by myracles and by hys owne worde at that tyme vnwryten, then he sayd eyther by saynte Iohan or by ys scripture eyther. For he sayed of those twayne, that yf eyther of bothe had lakked / they had not ben in the synne of infydelite. And he sayth not so mych of saynt Iohan, nor of the scrypture neyther. [Hi] Now reason is clere agaynste Tyndale, in that he sayth that Cryste and his apostles could not be byleued for all the miracles. For though god hadde neuer geuen warnyng by Moyses, that there sholde come a nother prophete: yet excepte god had expr&ssely sayd that he wolde neuer sende mo (whyche he sayed not) what sholde let Cryste to be byleued commynge wyth miracles/ and though he wolde teache in the bylyefe, not contrary artycles to those that were byfore taught, but other reuelacyons farther that were not taught byfore, and in workes make what chaunge that god lyste to commaunde. Goddes worde when yt was brought vnto the people by Moyses/ was yt byleued for goddes sake or for Moyses? If for goddes sake/ then though Cryste had not bene god as he was: yet syth god sent hym wyth miracles as he sent Moyses, what sholde lette hym to be byleued as well as Moyses, though he hadde neuer be spoken of byfore? Now yf for Moyses sake/ Cryste was as good as Moyses was, all hadde he not ben god/ and incomparably better syth he was god. Why coulde he not then haue ben byleued wythoute the wytnesse of Moyses, com- mynge wyth miracles mo then euer Moyses dyd or all the prophetes bysyde/ and namely doyenge so many in his owne name. And bycause that in the credence geuen vnto Cryste, Tyndale geueth so great preemynens to the scrypture aboue the myracles of Cryste/ that is to saye to the worde of god wryten aboue wonderfull workes of god done: lette Tyndale vnderstande that the cause why the wytnesse of scrypture holpe vnto the credence of Cryste, was by reason of miracle / that is to wyt bycause yt prophecyed of hym. Whyche thyng that shall come so longe after/ is a great miracle. And yet farther they that wolde not byleue in Cryste for hys miracles / wolde not byleue in hym for the scrypture neyther. And yet for the fynall confutacyon of Tyndales foly, in sayeng that Cryste for all his miracles coulde not haue ben byleued but for the scrypture: euery fole knoweth that all the worlde saue the Iewes in theyr turnynge to Crystes bylyefe, were not led by the scrypture but by the miracles/ and byleued not Cryste for the scrypture, but by- leued the scrypture for Cryste, & Cryste for the myracles. And the Iewes whyche people moste byleued the scrypture/ of them I saye fewest byleued in Cryste. [Hiv] Tyndale. Wherfore for as myche as Crystes congregacyon is spredde abrode into all the worlde, mych broder then Moyses/ and in as mych as we haue not the olde testament onely but also the new, wherin all thynges are opened so rychely and all fullfylled, that byfore was promysed/ and in so mych that there is no promyse byhynde of ought to be shewed more saue the resurreccyn, / ye and sevnge that Cryste and all the apostles with all the angellis of heuen yf they were here, coulde preache no more then is preached of necessyte to our soules: how then sholde we receyue a new artycle of our fayth wythout scrypture, as profytable vnto my soule as smoke for sore yies. More. Here Tyndale maketh hys conclusyon, that syth Moyses bycause the people was encreaced, so fully receyued all thynges necessarye to be byleued in scrypture, that Cryste hym selfe myghte not haue be byleued wythoute scrypture (whyche thynge is very false) therfore yt foloweth that Cristes congregacyon hath all thynges necessary to be byleued wryten in scrypture/ whyche thynge is as false, and reason yt is that yt be false, when he concludeth yt vppon false. But Tyndale perceyuyng well hym selfe how fals his fundacyon is, & how feble hys byeldynge is that he setteth theruppon: hath therfore to make yt stande the surer, vndershoren & vnderpropped it wyth certayne other stronge postes made of roten redys. One is that all thynges be now bysyde the olde testament, opened rychely in the new testament, that byfore were promysed. Thys vnderpropper is not very proper for to bere vppe his byldynge/ for yt is the selfe same thynge that is in questyon. For we saye that yf he take the new testament for the boke of that scrypture wryten: he muste not onely saye but also proue, that euery thynge is opened therein, that of necessyte for our soule helth is to be byleued or done/ & this is the thynge selfe that is in debate. And therfore whyle he doth but tell vs and proue it not/ and so vnderproppeth his assercyon wyth yt selfe: he sheweth hym self as wyse, as one that leste his roten house sholde fall, wold go about to take downe the rofe, and pull vppe the groundsell to vndershore the sydes wyth the same. Then setteth he to yt a nother shorer, that all thynge is in the new testament fulfylled that was promysed byfore/ & also that there is no promise byhynde of ought to be shewed more, saue the resurreccyon. Nowe this shorer ys so surely [Hi] sette, that yt is shortely blowen downe quyte, yf a man say no more but what than. For bysydes that, as there laye mo promyses in the olde testament then euery man well vnderstode/ so maye there yet peraduenture lye mo promyses vn- perceyued yet, eyther by Tyndale or me, both in the old and in the new. But I saye bysydes this/ and bysyde this also that Tyndale sayth here vntrew (for bysyde ys resurreccion there are yet vnfulfylled as well dyuerse promyses of tokens & thynges that shall come byfore ys resurreccyon, & all those thynges perde that are promised to come after, as the iudgement yt selfe, and blesse or payne euerlastynge to the iudged bodyes) but yet I saye bysyde all this/ what yf all the promyses be fulfylled sauynge the resurreccyon: dothe that proue that there coulde be nothynge of necessyte byleued wythoute scryp- ture? Is there nothynge to be byleued but promyses? If god tell me a thynge or byd me do a thynge/ am I not bounde to byleue the tone nor to do the tother bycause they be no promyses? If Tyndale speke wysely in thys, I muste nedes confesse my foly/ for in good fayth I can se no wyt therein. But fynally he setteth to a myghty stronge poste able to bere downe all, when he sayth that Cryste, and all hys apostles, and all the angellys of heuen, coulde preache no more then is preached of necessyte to our soules. And therfore, and for all the wyse and well framed reasons whyche I haue reproued, and proued vnresonable byfore: he sayth that to receyue a new artycle of fayth wythout scrypture, were as profytable for our soules as smoke for sore yies. This is a substauncyall shorer lo, and very surely set I assure you For fyrste I myght agre all that he sayeth and his purpose neuer th more proued. For where he sayeth ys all is all redy preached that is necessary or can be necessarie to ys soule: yf I wold answere and say, that is very trew, all suche thynges is all redy preached, but all suche preachyng is not wryten/ where were now Tyndales conclusyon. But I wyll not be so madde to graunte hym that all is eyther write or preached eyther, that can be of necessyte to mannes soule. Fo who wolde be so madde to thynke that god knoWeth not man thynges that we know not/ and that he can yf yt please hym reuel and shew vs any of those, and commaunde vs to byleue them whc so euer he lyste. And when [Hiv] he so wold do/ then were they o necessyte to our soules saluacyon to be byleued. And he maye whe yt please hym commaunde vs to do some other thynges that he hat not commaunded yet/ and then sholde we be bounde to do them. And he maye commaunde to leue vndone some thynges that he hath byfore commaunded to be done/ and then sholde we be bounden to leue them vndone. And this is so playne and euydent to euery man that hath any sparke of reason in his hedde/ that I wonder wher Tyndale hadde lefte his wyt when he wrote thys? And this was also a wyse temperaunce of the mater that he sayeth for these wyse causes, that yt were as holsome for our soules as smoke for sore yies, yf we receyued any newe artycles of fayth wythout scripture. If the yien of his soule were not sore blered or starke blynd wyth the smoke of the smoky fyre of hell/ he wolde sone haue sen wyth hys two yien hys two folyes in these few wordes. For he sayth if we receyued a new artycle wythout scrypture/ wherby he confesseth that yf god wyll geue vs a new artycle in scrypture, as he gaue Moyses/ yt were not vnholesome. And what can he then saye but yf god gyue yt wythout scrypture, he must be byleued/ but yf Tyndale dare say that the treuth of god do depende vpon his wrytynge, and yt hi worde be nought worth tyll yt be wryten? A nother foly is thys, tha he sayth yf we receyue a new article/ and then all the samples that he putteth be olde/ and we shall putte hym some other as old. Tyndale. What holpe yt me to byleue that our ladyes bodye is in heuen. More. If thys be a new byleued artycle/ lette Tyndale tell when thys by- lyef beganne / & he shall fynde that yt hath ben thus byleued euen from the tyme of her deceace. And now ys thyng that almoste.xv. C. yere hath ben byleued/ he calleth a new artycle. But now how lyke is thys bylyef of this newe artycle of.xv. hundred yere olde, vnto hys ensample of smoke & sore yies. For fyrste yf yt holpe hym not/ yet at the leste yt hurted hym not as smoke doth sore yies. But syth it is trew and taught vnto the chyrche by the spyryte of god, whyche ledeth the chyrche into euery trouth/ and the chyrche growen into the consent and agrement therof by the same spiryte of concorde and agrement, whych maketh all the house of one mynde/ and though the bylefe therof were very new:. yet yt [Hi] helpeth hym and doth hym good to byleue yt/ as yt helpeth hym and doth hym good yf he byleue other trouthes whych god hath reueled and shewed by wrytynge byfore/ excepte Tyndale trust not god vppon his word, but yf he geue hym his wrytynge there vppon and his letters patentes vnder his great seale. For ellys why sholde yt not helpe hym as mych to byleue that our ladyes body and soule is in heuen, syth god hath taught his chyrche so to byleue/ as yt helpeth hym to byleue that Enoch or Hely, is bodye & soule in paradyse, syth he maye do the tone that doth the tother. And he sayth the tone that sayth the tother/ though he saye them not bothe in one maner, but the tone by wrytynge the tother by mouth. For the inwarde inspiracyon of hys spyryte/ is his mouth vnto his resonable creatures. How be yt he sayth and speketh in dede the tone thynge and the tother, bothe of one fashyon. For yf he speke/ he but inspyreth his worde in to some creature that speketh yt out. And as he speketh he wryteth. And therfore who so better byleueth the word of god wryten, then ys worde of god vnwryten/ that is to wyt the scripture, then the inspyracyon: he byleueth better the creature that wrote it, then god hym self that inspyred yt. If Tyndale wyll auoyde thys and say, nay/ but I byleue better these men that wrote ye tone of Enoch and Hely, then I beleue these men that tell me the tother of our lady: then muste Tyndale tell vs why he better byleueth those then these. Wherin what hath he to saye, but that those that wrote it in the scrypture were inspyred of god and so he byleueth it, as the worde not of men but of god. Then answere we agayne/ that they that tell me ys tother of our lady, were inspyred of god/ and therfore it helpeth hym to byleue it as the worde not of menne but of god. If he aske how shall he know that god inspyred the men that tell hym ys tale of our lady: we must aske hym agayne, how knoweth he that god inspyred them that wrote the tale of Enoch or Hely. If he say that he knoweth it bycause it is holy scrypture: we then shall aske hym ferther how he knoweth that it is holy scrypture. And then is he dreuen to the poynt, that when he hath all done/ he muste be fayne to fle to the chyrche, and say that he knoweth it by the chyrche. And when he shall shewe you by whyche chyrche he knoweth it: he muste nedys shew you some chyrche whyche hym selfe may knowe/ for ellys how [Hiv] sholde any suche chyrche tell it hym as hym selfe knoweth not? And when he sheweth you any knowen chyrche/ he is dowble confounded. For bothe he destroyeth hys heresye ys no chyrche sholde be byleued but electes/ and also shall be dreuen to confesse, ys he knoweth the scryp- ture by our chyrche/ that is to wyt Crystes catholyke chyrche whych he refuseth. And then shall we ferther tell hym for hys thyrde con- fusyon, that by the same selfe chyrche doeth he knowe that god hath inspyred that other artycle of our lady. And yet for his fourth con- fusyon, we shall tell hym ferther, ys the selfe same scrypture whyche hym selfe by the meane of the chyrches techynge byleueth to be the worde of god, techeth hym also to byleue, that thys thynge whyche yt byleueth of our lady, is eyther good to byleue or at the lestewyse not euyll, nor lyke smoke to sore eyes/ syth our sauyour hym selfe in the same scrypture sayth, that the spyryte of god shall teche them all trouth, and lede them into euery trouth and that for euer/ syth hym selfe there pro- myseth that he wyll not leue them, but be wyth them for euer vnto the worldes ende. And thus good crysten readers ye se to what wourshypfull con- clusyon, wyth a fourfolde confusyon Tyndale hath brought hym selfe, wyth layenge thys artycle wherby he wolde mynysshe the wourshyppe of our most blessed lady. But lykewyse as he speketh here of the assumpcyon of our lady/ the bylefe wherof he wolde sholde seme to serue of nought: the same sayth he in dyuerse places of the bylefe of the perpetuall vyrgynyte of our lady/ sayenge that it is nothynge pertaynynge to the saluacyon of our soule. But I saye that the catholyke chyrche of Cryste by- leueth, that the bylefe therof beynge (as it is, and from the begyn nyng hath ben) taught by the holy goost/ so perteyneth to the saluacion of our soules, that the contrary bylefe perteyneth to the dampnacyon of our soules yf heresye be dampnable. And that thys is no new artycle, well appereth by that that the olde holy doctour saynt Hierome so ferforth rekened it for heresye, that he wrote an hole boke agaynste the olde heretyke Heluidius for ys confutacyon of ys heresye. In which vertuouse boke saynt Hierom neyther proueth nor goeth aboute to proue her perpetuall vyrginyte by scrypture/ but onely proueth that the places of scrypture whyche Heluidius brought forth for the contrary, were not effectuall to proue hys malycyouse purpose, agaynste the comen recey[Hi] ued fayth of Crystes catholyke chyrche. Agaynste whyche we may be very sure that ys scrypture neuer speketh in dede/ how apparent so euer an heretyke make it seme. For lykewyse as though a sophyster wolde wyth a fonde argument, proue vnto a symple soule that two egges were thre/ bycause that there is one, and there be twayne, and one and twayne make thre: that symple vnlerned man, though he lakke lernynge to soyle his fonde argument/ hath yet wyt inough to laugh thereat, and to ete the two egges hym self, and byd the sophyster take and ete the thyrde. So is euery faythfull man as sure in the syghte of hys soule, how apparently so euer an heretyke argue by scrypture to ys contrary, that the commen fayth of Crystes catholyke chyrche is out of questyon trewe/ and that the scripture vnderstanden ryght, is neuer therto contrary/ syth he woteth well bot ture, that the chyrche is taught hys fayth by god and hys holy spyryte/ accordynge to Crystes promyse that can neuer be false/ and woteth well also that god neuer techeth agaynste the trouth, nor wryteth agaynst hys worde, but that the contraryete that semeth, arryseth of heretykes malycyouse soteltye, or as holy saynte Austayne sayth, for lakke of well vnderstandyng. Whych mysse vnderstandynge may sone mysse lede ys man whych lyst to leue the fayth of Crystes catholyque chyrche, and lene to the doctryne of a false heretyque or to the lykynge his owne wyt. But for bycause Tyndale wyll when we haue all sayed, stykke styll at one poynt/ and aske vs what shall profyte his soule to byleue that our ladye is in heuen bodye and soule (of whyche he playnely by- leueth the contrary, bothe for her bodye and her soule / for he byleueth wyth Luther, that all soules slepe, and slepe shall tyll the daye of dome) and Wyll aske vs also what profyteth hym to byleue that our ladye was a perpetuall virgyne and neuer hadde chylde but Cryste/ syth none of those both articles is proued by playne scrypture/ and we myght be saued well inough though our ladyes body cam not in heuen tyll domes day/ & also though she hadde mo sonnes then one and mo husbandes to: I wyll aske hym then agayne, what profyteth hym to byleue that our sauyour hym selfe dyed a virgyne, and neuer had wyfe nor chylde/ syth that artycle is not proued by very playne scrip- ture neyther: & he myght by his passion haue wrought our redemp- cion, all though he had wedded & goten chyldren to. [Hiv] And in good fayth I wene we shall se those folke fall so frantyque ones/ that they shall not let at laste, to say he dyd so to/ and bydde vs go proue the contrarye by scrypture, or ellys they be at theyr angelycall lybertye to byleue whyche waye they lyste. But now come we to Tyndales other example that he putteth of purgatorye. Tyndale. What am I the better for the bylyefe of purgatorye? More. In good fayth not the better of an halfpeny, whyle ye byleue yt no better then ye do. But surely if ye byleued yt well/ ye myghte be bothe the better for purgatorye and ye farther from hell. Tyndale. To fere men wyth, thou wylte saye. More. He maketh men answere as yt pleaseth hym selfe. But we wyll not saye so/ for it were a folyshe sayeng to say, Tyndale is the better for the bylyefe of purgatorye to fere men wyth. What fole wolde saye so but Tyndale? For Tyndals bylyef can not fere folke, no inore then other mennys bylyef fereth Tyndale/ nor Tyndale is not ys better though other men be aferde. And therfore that questyon as he folyshely frameth yt, so he folyshely answereth yt. But I saye that purgatory is ordeyned for the punyshement of suche synnys, as were eyther venyall in the bygynnynge/ or from mortall turned to venyall by the forgyuenesse of the mortalyte. And I saye that the bylyefe therof profyteth two maner of wyse. One wyse in that yt maketh a man to be preserued thens, or to be the lesse whyle there/ by that yt maketh hym do penaunce and good workes here, of whiche two thynges Tyndale abhorreth to here. A nother waye the bylyefe therof profyteth, in that as for so farre forth yt kepeth the byleuer from hell/ into ys fyre wherof for the contrary bylyefe and heresye holden agaynst yt, he sholde ellys fall hedlynge downe/ byleued he neuer so well, andlyued he neuer so well also bysyde. And therfore of the bylyefe of purgatory there commeth these profytes to other folke/ though Tyndale be neuer the better for the bylyefe therof, whyche byleueth yt not. [Ii] Tyndale. Cryste and his apostles thoughte hell inough. And yet besydes that, the flesshely ymagynacyons maye not stande with goddes worde. What greate fere can there be of that terryble fyre, whyche thou mayste quenche almoste for thre halfpens. More. Nay surely that fyre is not so lyghtely quenched, that folke sholde vppon the boldenesse of perdons, stande out of the fere of purgatory. For lykewyse as though the sacrament of penaunce be able to put away theternalyte of the payne/ yet hath the party for all that, cause to fere bothe purgatory and hell to, leste some defaute vppon hys owne parte letted god in the sacrament, to worke such grace in hym as sholde serue therfore: so though the perdon be able to dyscharge a man of purgatory/ yet may there be suche defaute in ys party to whom the perdon is graunted, that though he gyue for thre halfpence thre hundred pounde, yet shall he receyue no perdon at all. And therfore can he not be for thre halfepence out of fere of purgatory, but euer hath cause to fere it. For no man excepte reue- lacyon, can be sure whyther he be partener of the perdon or not/ though he maye haue and ought to haue bothe in that and euery good thynge good hope. And yf the fere of purgatory were so clere gone, bycause it myghte be quenched wyth the coste of thre halfepence: then were the fere of hell gone to by Tyndales techynge / syth bare fayth and sleyght repentyng putteth out that fyre clene, wythout the cost of a peny. And where he sayeth that Cryste and hys apostles thought hell inough/ I aske hym how he preueth that. For we se well by expery- ence that hell and purgatory to, be scant inough bytwene them bothe, to refrayne folke from synne. We se also that bothe Cryste and hys apostles, haue shewed vs that there is purgatory. And that haue they shewed vs not onely by mouth, whyche were suffycyent to faythfull folke/ but by the scrypture to. And yet bothe twayne be not inough to Tyndale. For hys felowes and he wyll not vnderstande those places of scrypture, but after theyr owne fasshyon. And therfore now, where as he calleth as vnprofytable to the soule as smoke to sore eyes, all thynges that be not [Iiv] eyther wryten in scrypture or deduced theruppon / & put the ensamples of the assumpcyon of our ladye and purgatory: he muste adde vnto them as many thynges mo as hym selfe putteth in the same case. And so therby ye se ys he sayth now, that a chylde to be confermed or to be crystened eyther, yf yt be crystened in latyne/ or a man to shryue hym selfe of his synnys, or to do penaunce, or to do any good workes toward heuen warde, or to be aneled, or to pray to sayntes, or to byleue in the holy sacrament ofthe aulter, the blessed body and blood of Cryste, or to do any honoure vnto yt: all these thynges be by Tyndale as profytable for the soule, as smoke is for sore eyes. But I praye god that the sore eyes of hys sycke soule maye ones loke vppe better/ leste he fynally fall in to the foule smoke of hell, where he shall neuer se after. Tyndale. And that the apostles shold teache aught by mouth, that they wold not write/ I pray you for what purpose. holy dedes and prayenge to sayntes with suche lyke / as dome superstycyon of the hethen people / so that they neded not to abstayne from wrytynge of them, for feare lest the hethen sholde haue mocked them. More. Thys was an happy happe for mayster Tyndale, that it happed mayster More wyth the layenge of suche a slender cause, to mynyster mayster Tyndale so mych pleasaunt mater of replycacyon. For yf I had not happed to haue sayed that the apostles forbare the wrytynge of some thynges, for estewynge of infydeles mokkynge: Tyndale had had now no more to saye, but had lefte of wyth shame inough/ where as now by thys poynt he hath occasyon of mych mater and wynneth mych wourshyppe therwyth. But now yf I wolde be content to saye, that I was ouer seen in so sayenge/ and that I can not defende my wordes ys they forbare to wryte any maner thyng for any such cause/ and that also I can not tell why nor for what cause the apostles wrote some necessary thynges, and lefte some necessary thynges vnwryten/ no more then I can tell why that euery euangelyste wryteth many thynges that hys felowes haue, and yet leueth out some as greate and as necessary as some that he wryteth in: yf I wolde for Tyndales pleasure saye thys (whyche yf I dyd I neded not mych to force, for any greate harme that my parte could take therby/ for ye thynge [Iiv] were in it selfe neuer the lesse trewe that the apostles so dyd in dede, though I coude not tell why) then hadde I taken away quyte all Tyndales pleasure in his present bablyng, and lefte hym onely to those reasons that he hath layed before/ in all whych he is as ye se to shamefully confounded. But yet yf it lyke you good readers to rede myn owne wordes as I wrote them, which ye shall fynde in the fyrst boke of my dyaloge the .xxv. chapyter: there shall ye perceyue it/ ys it is not fully so farre from all reason, as Tyndale wolde haue it seme. For I shew there that the apostles dyd more playnely speke, and more openly declared, many thinges by mouth amonge the crysten folke, bycause theyr audyence was more mete whyle they were onely amonge them selfe/ then they dyd by theyr wrytynge, whyche myghte percase come in to the handes of hethen men, that wold laugh some such thynges to scorne. Now cometh Tyndale and sheweth that thys is fondely sayed, syth the apostles letted not to wryte the thynge that the hethen wolde moste mokke of all/ and that purgatory and the sacramentes were lest lykely to be mokked amonge them, for that they were most agreable vnto theyr owne superstycyon. But now lest he sholde haue combred hym selfe somwhat wyth the answere, and haue defaced therwyth the bewtye of hys owne tale: he leueth out here all suche thynges as I layd in that place for the profe. How be it those thynges wyll yet I truste serue me suffycyentely agaynste all Tyndales scoffes. Amonge whyche yet where he weneth that he speketh wyseste/ he helpeth me somwhat hym selfe euyn here vnware. For fyrste ho I coude not tell why they wrote somwhat that the hethen mokke, & yet leue out somwhat lest they sholde mokke/ though I coude not I saye tell why they dyd thys: yet is it inough yf I proue that they so dyd in dede. For the profe wherof I maye laye and so dyd in my dyaloge (whych Tindale here leueth out) that not onely saynt Peter so dyd, in ys seconde chapyter of the actys, where he forbare to call Cryst god lest it sholde haue hyndred the fayth in that audyence/ but that our sauyour dyd ys same hym selfe in the manyfeste preachynge of hys godhed, as appereth in the.x. chapyter of saint Iohan. Now syth ye se that thus they dyd in dede/ what nedeth me to care for all Tyndales whyes? why they forbare thys where was lesse cause to fere, and why they wrote thys where was more cause to fere: syth he can not say nay [Ii] but that they so dyd, am I bounden to gyue the rekenynge why and wherfore they so dyd? This dare I be bolde to say/ ys they neuer taught thynge of dyffyculte by wrytynge, but that they taught yt more playnely by mouth/ by whych explanacyons bv mouth, the people cam into the vndouted trouth and fayth of the mater, were the wrytynge neuer so full of doute. For the profe wherof/ Tyndale hath here as I sayed byfore, by reason of his heresye wyth false vnderstandynge of saynt Paule / brought forth a ryght good sample. For thus he sayeth. Tyndale. Ye and yf the apostles vnderstode therby as we do/ what madder thyng vnto the hethen people coulde they haue taught, then that brede is Crystes bodye and wyne his blood / and yet all these thunges they wrote. More. Lo here ye se yt Tyndale hym selfe dowteth vppon saynt Poules wordes, whyther he ment as we do/ whyche yet meane not as Tyn- dale doth, that brede is Crystes bodye and wyne his blood, so that ye brede and wyne styll remayne as Tyndale sayeth that the apostles wryte/ but that the brede & wyne is conuerted and chaunged into Crystes body and blood/ and that by what wordes so euer the apostles wryte yt, yet ys is the thynge that they meane/ & that all be yt that they haue wryten yt playne inough in scrypture, yet bothe Cryste and they wyth many wordes so clerely dyd declare yt by mouth, that in that artycle neyther then nor neuer after was there any doute arose, tyll ys these heretykes here now of late yeres make dowtes vppon the wrytynge, contrary to the declaracyon made by Cryste and his apostles, and well and surely writen in mennys hartes fourtene hundred yere byfore. Such parell is yt lo to fall from the vndouted fayth vnto the dyspycyons of the scrypture, whyche by the fayth is vnderstanden as the scrypture yt selfe. For lykewyse as yt sayth playnely, <2scrutamini scripturas,>2 serche ye in scrypture: so sayth yt as playnely, <2nisi>2 <2credideritis non intelligetis,>2 but if ye byleue ye shall not vnderstande. And here ye se that though Tyndale wyll not confesse that the apostles lefte any thynge vnwryten, nor that they wrote any thynge the more couertly for the mokkynge of the Hethen/ yet hesayth hym selfe that the apostles wrote so that men myght doute what they ment. And that I dare well say ys in the crysten flokke, [Iiv] they presently so farreforth declared yt/ yt they lefte no such doute therin. And also dare I say that they taught thinges by mouth whyche they wrote not/ parte for the cause afore sayde, parte for that yt neded not/ and thys I saye boldely. For though Tyndale saye nay: yet saynt Poule sayed yes hym selfe, when he wrote vnto the Corinthianes, <2c@tera>2 <2quum venero ipse disponam:>2 the other thynges I wyll dyspose or order when I come my selfe. But the sacramentes so sore greue Tyndales sore yien, that he may not abyde the syght of them/ & therfore he goth on agaynste them styll. Tyndale. More cuer whatis yt that the apostles taught by mouth and durstnot write, the sacramentes. As fo, baptyme aid the sacrament of the body and blood of Cryste, they wrote/ and yt is expressed what is sygnyfyed by them. And also all the ceremonyes and sacramentes that were from Adam to Cryste hadde sygnifycacyons,/ and all that are made mencyon of in the new testament. Wherforein as mych as the sacramentes of the old testament haue sygnyfycacyons / and in as mych as the sacramentes of the new testament (of whyche mencyon is made that they were delyuered vnto vs by the very Apostles at Crystes commaundement) haue also sygnifycacyons/ and in as mych as the offyceof an apostle is to edefye in Cryste / and in as mych as diuyne ceremonye edefyeth not, but hurteth all to gether (for yf yt preache not vnto me, then I can not but put confydence therin, that the dede yt selfe iustyfyeth me / whycheis ihe denyenge of Crystes blood) and in as mych as no mencyonis made of them as well as of other/ ner is knowen ivhat is ment by them: therfore yt appereth that thapostles taught them not, but that ihey be the false marchandyce of wylye hypocrytes. More. If a man rede ouer these wordes and examine them not/ he maye be sone abused. But who so well way them, and consyder euery parte/ shall sone perceyue that this processe ys fylled vppe wyth malyce, falsed, and foly. Fyrste he wolde that bycause the apostles haue writen the two sacramentes, that is to wyt baptysme & the sacrament of the auter, and the sygnyfycacyons of them/ and of the tother fyue as he sayth, haue not wryten: he wolde I saye therfore that we sholde take yt as proued, that the other fyue were no dyuine sacramentes, nor delyuered to the chyrche by Cryste nor hys apostles. Now is this argument though his antecedent were trew / yet as wysely concluded, as this is of the lawes of Englande: Men haue wryten some/ ergo they haue wryten all. [Ii] By the tytle of his chapyter he taketh in hande to proue, that the apostles haue lefte no necessary thynge vnwryten. And now he proueth yt, by that that they haue wryten some. For of his reason, ye & of all his reasons in conclusyon this is the hole somme. Whyche somme what effecte yt hath euery fole may se/ but yf Tyndale proue me farther that the apostles promysed that they wolde wryte all/ wherof saynte Iohan professeth playne the contrarye, and so dothe saynte Poule to. Now yet in this reason of his as faynte and as feble as yt is, he is fayne to presuppose false. For he presupposeth that of any of the remanaunt/ the apostles haue not Writen. Whych is so playne false, that yf there were any shame in hym, he myght not for shame say yt. Of confyr- macyon wryteth saynt Luke in the actes playnely / & saynte poule to the Hebrues as playnely. Of matrimony and presthed, saynt Poule manyfestly/ the tone to the Ephesyes, the tother to Timothe. Anelynge, saynt Iames, and saynt Marke in the gospell also. And of penaunce and the partes thereof, euery man allmoste in euery parte of scrypture. And this thynge Tyndale so well knoweth/ and that yt hath bene so often so playnely proued vnto them, that they coude neuer yet nor neuer shall whyle they lyue, be able to wythstande yt, neyther wyth scrypture nor wyth reason, but wyth raylynge and bablynge. And therfore as I say this knoweth Tyndale so well, that yt is more then shame for hym now so to wryte, as though the apostles hadde neuer wryten of them. Whyche yf they neuer had done in dede/ yet were the sacramentes sure inough, whych hange vppon goddes worde as sure as all theyr wrytynge/ and of whych vnwryten worde we be certayne & sure by the selfe same meanes, by whyche we knowe theyr bokes for holy wrytynge/ that is to wyt, by the relacyon of the catho- lyque chyrche of Cryste, and by the spiryte of god that ledeth the- chyrche in to the bylyefe of the trouth/ & ledeth euery well wyllynge person a parte/ into the byleuynge of the catholyque chyrch, & by the belyuyng of the chyrch, into the ryght bylyefe of euery necessary trouth/ & by the groundes therof fyrste hadde, into the ryght vnder- standynge of holy scrypture/ whereby the fayth byfore had, is more and more fastely confermed / and wyth out which fayth byfore hadde, the wyt of man myght abuse the scrypture to the occasyon of in- fydelyte and vnfaythfullnesse. [Iiv] But yet bycause I wolde be loth that Tyndale myght say that I mysse take hym in any thyng/ and then grounde my reason agaynste hym vppon my owne mysse takynge of his wordes: I wyll yet a lytle examyne his wordes better/ when he sayth that the remanaunt of the sacramentes bysyde baptysme and the sacrament of the auter, be no profytable sacramentes, nor haue no promyse of grace, bycause the apostles wrote not of any of them as they dyd of the tother twayne. I wolde wyt of Tyndale whyther he meane that of any of the tother fyue, the apostels wrote nothyng at all/ or ellys that they wrote not of any grace promised vnto any of them/ or ellys ys of none of them the apostles wrote any proper sygnyfycacyons of theyr outwarde sygnes / as sayny poule dyd of baptysme when he resembled yt vnto Crystes beryeng and resurreccyon/ and of the sacrament of the auter, when he teacheth the Corynthyes that one lofe is made of many graynes of corne, and the wyne of many grapes, and that crysten men sholde in lykewyse beyng many in person, be made one in loue and con- corde, and as it were, made all one bodye in and wyth our sauyour Cryste hym selfe. If he meane the fyrste way/ that is to wyt that of any of ys sayd fyue sacramentes the apostles wrote nothyng at all/ then shall he shew hym selfe to shamelesse. For ys wordes be clere both of confyrmacyon, presthed, anelynge, and bothe the other twayne. If he meane of the secunde manner/ his sayeng shafl be as shamelesse as in the fyrste. For yt is euydent in all the thre byfore remembred, that the apostles wryte of grace geuen wyth the puttynge vppon of the handes. And therein when Tyndale seketh an euasyon in his boke of obedyence/ sayenge that the puttyng of the handes was but a maner of menne in that contre, as yt was to stretche oute the arme in prechynge, or to laye an hande vppon a boyes hed & call hym good sonne / this euasyon is none euasyon. For in ys syxte chapyter of saynt Poule vnto the Hebrewes/ saynte Poule wolde not haue made so seryouse & ernest remembraunce of ys puttynge vppon of the handes (whyche he reherseth as ernestly as baptysme) yf yt were but such custumable maner that men maye do and lyue vndone as they lyste. Nor yf yt were but suche a thynge/ he wolde not so expressely saye to Tymothe, that he had grace geuen vnto hym by ys puttyng of his handes vppon hym. These places of scrypture and many mo to/ be for this mater so playne agaynste Tyndale, [Ki] and so euydent/ that when he wrestleth with them and wold fayne scape away wyth some gay glose of his owne diuyse: he fareth lyke a butter flye fallen on a lyme twygge, whych ys more yt stryueth and flotereth, euer the faster yt hangeth. Now yf he meane in the thyrd fasshyon/ that is to wytte that the apostles of those fyue sacramentes, do not besyde ys comen sygnyfy- cacyon of grace, wryte any specyall and proper sygnyfycacyons of the outwarde tokens, to whyche sygnyfycacyons the same outwarde tokens hadde suche resemblans and lykenesse that they were therfore appropred vnto them/ as water in baptysme hath by ys wessynge of the bodye a resemblauns vnto the clensynge of the soule, yf Tyndale meane in this manner as yt semeth that he dothe (for when Luther and he and all the sorte of them: hadde longe labored agaynste the blessed sacramentes, and hadde fyrste assayed to saye that fyue of them were not in scrypture spoken of at all/ and whan that wolde not be bydden by, then ys there was at the leste wyse no grace promysed wyth them/ when they se them selfe shamfully conuycted and reproued in that poynte to, then fell they fynally to the thyrde poynt/ and wolde not wythstandynge that the scrypture make men- cyon of them/ & of grace also graunted wyth them/ yet wold the wise men make vs so madde as to take them all for nought, but yf we fynde in scrypture what other specyall sygnyfycacyon euery outwarde token hath/ and preache that sygnyfycacyon to the people, as the specyall thynge and the hole effecte of the sacrament lettyng the grace go by/ whych these men wolde were clene forgoten, & in no wyse byleued. But where as in all theyr wrytynges they rayle vppon allegoryes, & crye out vppon such holy doctours as preache them: yet the holy sacramentes selfe they wolde shold serue for allegoryes onely and for nothynge ellys). Now then I saye syth Tyndale meaneth thys wyse and therfore sayth in his wordes afore remembred, that otherwyse preached they do no good but hurte all to gether/ for yt maketh he sayeth the audyence to put confydence therin, that the dede yt selfe iustyfyeth a man, whyche is the denyenge of Cristes blood/ syth Tyndale I saye sayeth thus: I wolde wyt of Tyndale whether the sacramentes and the ceremonycs of the olde law were by god prouyded to be well, and with theyr profyte delyuered & taught by Moyses vnto the Iewes. I thynke that Tyndale wyll not be so madde [Kiv] to say, ys god dyd by Moyses teche them to serue hym wyth those sacramentes, sacry- fyces, & ceremonyes, dyspleasaunt to hym selfe, thankles toward them selfe, & also to theyr hurte. Wherfore yf he haue eytller wytte or grace/ he muste nedys graunte & agre, yt they were by Moises taught vnto ys iewes, very well and agreable to goddys pleasure & theyr welthe. But then say I that those specyall and proper sygnyfy- cacyons of euery sacrament, sacryfyce, and ceremonye were not taught them/ ilor they vnderstode them not: wherfore it foloweth that Tyndale sayeth false/ in that he sayth that the knowledge of them was so necessary for the soule helthe/ ys wythout that know- ledge the vse of them muste nedes be noyfull and not lawfull vnto them. For but yf Tyndale teche false in thys/ god had taught hys people in the begynnynge to serue hym wyth damnable ceremonyes hym selfe. Now yf Tyndale wyll at thys clappe turne hys cheke a syde/ and say that bycause that ellys all theyr seruyce to god done wyth those sacramentes and ceremonyes hadde bene dampnable / therfore it appereth well that all the sygnyfycacions of them were taught them/ and so the minor of myne argument false: yet in turnynge the tone cheke fro me, he tourneth the tother very fayre to me/ so that he wyll haue a clap on the tone cheke or the tother make what skyfte he For then say I thys vnto hym, that yf the knowledge of all these sygnyfycacions was so necessary to them that without that knowlege, the doynge of those thynges whyche without synne they myghte not leue vndone, were synne as ofte as they dyd them/ and that therfore lest we sholde be so wretched to wene god had on euery syde so by- wrapped hys people in synne hym selfe, by hys owne specyall prouysyon, ys they coude not by no meane escape: we muste nedys perceyue that god caused them to be by Moyses taught all those sygnyfycacyons. Then say I that syth they were not wryten vnto them in the scrypture, they were yf Tyndale tolde vs trew taughte them but onely by mouth/ and so fro mouth to mouth taught and contynued amonge them, tyll men by theyr foly and slougth fell to forgete them or lytell to force of them, and then to not byleue them as these heretyques fare by the ryght fayth at thys daye. And then saye I that theruppon, it very well foloweth ferther/ that Tyndale sayeng that Moyses receyued all necessary thynges in wrytynge, sayed very false & lyke a very [Ki] fole/ for the knowlege and vnderstandynge of those sygnyfycacyons of all theyr sacryfyces and ceremonyes, he confesseth to be necessary vppon parell of theyr soulys, and yet he confesseth that they were not wryten in the scrypture. And yf Tyndale wene to wry asyde and skape, by that he sayth that those sacramentes & ceremonyes serued them for bookes/ & that they red all the sygnyfycacyons in them as in bookes: I aske hym whyther the ceremonyes were tokens so lyke the sygnyfycacyons, that they were able to teche the sygnyfycacyons, and kepe them by the beholdyng of the ceremonyes or not. If they were/ they had not ben for gotten. If they were not, and yet the sygnyfycacyons so necessary/ then yet agayne was not euery thynge necessary delyuered Moyses in wrytynge. But lettyng Tyndale with his foly passe/ the trouth is yt the iewes had necessary thynges taught them besyde ye wrytynge/ & had an expectacyon of Cryst and of redempcyon by hym before ys law wryten/ & in that tyme, and after, and the iewes loke for it yet/ & they knowe ys wythout hym all theyr sacramentes coude not for theyr fynall saluacyon serue them. But when they began lytell & lytell to fall from that fayth/ and began to truste in the law & the workes of ye law alone/ leuynge of thys poynt of fayth which was of the law, sacramentes & ceremonyes, and all theyr bodyly workes of ys soule: then went they wronge. And ys is the thynge whiche saynt Poule so sore reproueth, in theyr trust & confydence to be saued by the workes of the law/ where as yf they had not lefte of the force & strength of fayth/ both workes of ye law, and ys ceremonyes to, had stande them in stede of heuen. And therfore thys nothyng toucheth the chyrch of Cryste when they put truste in the sacramentes/ for they do it not wythout the fayth that all the force and strength ofthem cometh of Crystes passyon/ for thys they beleue, and thys they teche. And it is no dowte but yt the iewes neuer knew ys specyall sygnyfycacyons of all theyr sacramentes, sacryfyces, & ceremonyes, other then grace & remyssyon of synnes, or peraduenture yt they were fygures & tokens of thynges that shold fall not yet perceyued by them/ as we know our sacramentes be effectuall sygnes of grace. And it is vndowted, ys both they & we which in fayth, hope, & cheryte, do any such thyng as god commaundeth, & serue hym in such fashyon as he byddeth vs/ all though we knowe not why he wyll be serued in [Kiv] suche wyse, no more then Abraam knew why god bad hym to serue hym wyth the sacryfysynge of hys owne sonne: yet is that doynge of that dede done in that wyse, pleasaunt & acceptable to god, and profyte to mannes soule/ what so euer Tyndale tell vs, and hys mayster Martine to, & frere Huskyn also, and take theyr wyse wyues wyth them. And therfore all thys tale of Tyndale agaynst the sacrament/ is not worth the leste fether of a wylde gose wynge. But yet consyder one thynge by the way, ys ye mysse take hym not, nor be not by a fayre word ledde out of your way. He calleth the sacrament of the auter the sacrament of the bodye & blode of Cryste/ in which wordes he calleth it well, but yet meaneth he not so well therby as good crysten men do, nor as hym selfe wolde seme to do. For he meaneth not that there is the very body & blode of Cryst in dede, though he saye there is the sacrament therof For by that meaneth he nothynge ellys, but onely a bare sygne, and token, and a memoryall therof. For the great heretyke Thorpe in his examynacy sacrament a ryght, and by the same name that Tyndale now doth / so that a man wold at the fyrst heryng fynd no faute therin, but mysse take hym for a good crysten man. But afterward he declareth hym selfe well and clerely, that he meaneth lyke a naughty heretyke/ as Tyndale doth also in sondry places of his boke. For he saith ys sacra- ment, sygne, and token, be but thre names of one thynge / and that the sacrament of the auter is very brede styll. And he mokketh at them that teache it to be the very body of our sauyour hym selfe/ and he is woode wyth them that do it any honour. And so in this poynt concernynge the blessed sacrament of the auter, Tyndale is yet a mych more heretyke then Luther is hym selfe in hys wrytynge/ all though in dede it appereth well that he ment as mych in the begynnyng, tyll he wythdrew hym selfe for enuye of other, that hasted forward and set forth that heresye byfore hym. And of trouth I am ryght credebly enformed by a very vertuouse man, whom god hath of his goodnesse illumined & called home agayn, out of ys darke Egypte of theyr blynd heresyes/ that at suche tyme as frere Barons and Tyndale fyrste rere aron, mette & talked to gether beyonde the see after that he fledde out of the freres where he was enioyned to tarye for his penaunce after he hadde borne his fagot: Tyndale and [Ki] he were of sondrye sectes. For frere Barons was of zwynglius secte agaynste the sacrament of the auter, byleuynge that it is nothynge but bare brede. But Tyndale was yet at that tyme not fully fallen so farre in ys poynt/ but though he were badde inough bysyde, was yet not content with frere Barons for the holdynge of that heresye. But wythin a whyle after (as he that is fallyng is sone put ouer) the frere made the fole mad out ryght, and brought hym blyndfelde downe into the depeste dongeon of that deuylysshe heresye/ wherin he sytteth now as faste bounden in the chayre of pestylence, wyth the chayne of pertynacyte, as any of hys vnhappy felowes. And this I geue you knowledge of/ bycause I wolde not in any wyse that ye were deceyued wyth hym, where he speketh well & yet meaneth nought. But now lette vs yet farther consyder well hys wordes. Thus he sayth. Tyndale. All the ceremonyes and sacramentes that were from Adam to Cryste, hadde sygnyfycacyons/ and all that are made mencyon of in the new testament. More. Vppon this he concludeth after, that except baptysme & the sacra- ment of the auter/ all the remanaunt be no trewe sacramentes for lakke of sygnifycacyons. But ere he can so conclude/ he muste fyrste proue, not onely that all the sacramentes and ceremonyes from Adam to Cryste hadde sygnyfycacyons/ but also that all those sygnyfyca- cyons were then to the people knowen and vnderstanden. For ellys though god dyd sette thynges to sygnyfye and to be done: yet yf he commaunded them to do it and tolde them not the sygnyfycacyons, but wolde leue them to be shewed and dysclosed at suche tyme after- warde as it sholde lyke hym selfe/ it was no synne for them in the meane whyle to do the thynges that god bode them do/ but greate meryte to them, though they vnderstode not what the thynges sygnyfyed that they dyd/ no more then my seruaunt that can no more but wryte, is worthy rebuke and blame in the wrytynge of a latyn booke at my byddynge, wherof he woteth not what any one worde meaneth. Now that all the sygnyfycacyons, of all the sacramentes and ceremonyes from Adam to Cryste, were vnderstanden of the people: that shall not Tyndale proue me, though he shuld lyue as many yeres as were betwene ye creacyon of Adam, & the byrth of Cryst. And therfore as many yeres must he nedes haue also, ere euer he make hys conclusion [Kiv] folow and hys argument good. For yf god gaue them cere- monyes and sacramentes, wherof he gaue them not the sygnyfyca- cyons: then so myghte he lykewyse gyue vs yf it so please hym to do. And farther yf they by the doynge of those not vnderstanden cere- monyes and sacramentes in obedyence of his byddynge, dyd not synne, but deserued thanke/ all suche I saye as dyd them in dew fayth of saluacyon by Cryste that was to come: then maye we also by the obseruynge of sacramentes and ceremonyes, hauyng some syg- nyfycacyons farther then we perceyue (for one generall sygnyfycacyon of them all we knowe, that they be all good tokens and sygnyfyca- cyons of grace, in that they be taughte by god and hys spyryte that in such thynges doth instructe hys chyrche) we maye lykewyse I saye 2s obserue them wythout synne, and not wythout thanke of god. And so Tyndales argument goth to grounde quyte/ all though our sacra- mentes & ceremonyes were not good in dede. For they may be good for any reason that he maketh to the contrarye. But now that they be good in dede, and delyuered vnto Crystes catholyke chyrche by hym selfe and hys holy spyryte sent by hym selfe to dwefl therin, to teache it all necessarye trouth, and therby necessaryly to preserue it from all damnable vntreuth, false bylyefe, and idolatrye (as the sacramentes & the ceremonyes were yf they were false): thys haue I proued to Tyndale ofter I trow then fyftene tymes/ to whyche in fyftene hundred yere he shall I am sure neuer make one good answere. Tyndale. Wherfore in as mych as the sacramentes of the olde testament haue sygnyfycacyons / and in as mych as the sacramentes of the new testament (of whyche mencyon is made that they were delyuered vnto vs by the very apostles at Crystes commaundement) haue also sygnyfycacyons/ and in as mych as the offyce of an apostle is to edyfye in Cryste/ and in as mych as a dumme ceremonye edyfyeth not, bui hurteth all to gether (for yf yt preache not vnto me, then I can not but put confydence therin that the dede yt selfe iustyfyeth me/ whyche is the denyenge of Crystes blood) and in as mych as no mencyon is made of them as well as of other, nor is kn,wen what is ment of them: therfore yt apereth that the apostles taught them not/ but that they be the false marchaundyse of wylye hypocrytes. More. He repeteth here & hepeth vppe all hys proues to gether, whych- proues I haue repreued pece mele all to gether/ and [Ki] so his conclusyon whych he deduceth vppon them, ys all redye reproued all to gether. But yet for his double confusyon can I not forbere to touche one pece agayne, whyche in his repeticyon here he semeth to sette out more open & more clerely to declare. This pece is, where he sayeth that all the sacramentes of the new testamente haue sygnyfycacyons also/ and then expowneth whych all he meaneth/ sayeng all of which mencyon is made that they were delyuered vnto vs by the very apostles at Crystes commaundement. It is to me more then wonder What this man meaneth. Fyrst yt must nedes be that he accompteth amonge suche as he sayeth, there is no mencyon made of theyr delyuery by the very apostles, all those fyue whyche he so often and so fully refuseth to take for sacramentes/ that ys to wyt confyrmacyon, penaunce, wedloke, holy order, an anelynge. For he sayth alwaye that the tother two, that is baptysm and the sacrament of the auter haue sygnyfycacyons, and that thes haue none/ and by thys reason he wolde now conclude that onely those two be very sacramentes, and none of all these fyue. But now his wordes wyll rather proue that these fyue haue sygny. fycacyons to. For he sayth that all haue sygnyfycacyons, whero mencion is made that they were delyuered vnto vs by the ve apostles. Wherfore Tyndale doth here eyther confesse that these fyue haue sygnyfycacyons also / & then confesseth his wordes false, by whych he so often sayth they be no sacramentes, bycause they haue no sygnyfycacyons/ for lakke, wherof he calleth them dumme cere- monies: or ellys he sayeth here, that there is no mencyon made that any of these fyue were delyuered vs by ys very apostles/ and then is he therin to playnely proued false. For euery man seeth that there is none of all these fyue, but that as I haue often shewed, mencion is made ofthem by the euangelystes, and the other of the apostles/ yf they be the very apostles whom he and we bothe call the appostles, saynte Peter, saynte Poule, saynte Iamys, and theyr felowes. So that I wonder what the madde man meaneth to speke in thys mater so solempnly, and handle yt so madly. For when they make mencyon of them: the wyse man maye well wyt that they dyd not bygynne by any wyly foxe after/ but by Cryste hym selfe that taught those thynges to them, and they forth [Kiv] to hys chyrche. Tyndale. And therto presthed was in the tyme of the apost1es an offyce/ whyche yf they wolde do truely it wolde more profyte then all the sacramentes of the worlde. More. Is not here a nother madde reason? Hys purpose is to proue that the apostles lefte no necessary thynge vnwryten / and Tyndale proueth it thus. In the apostles tyme prestehed was an offyce/ whych yf the prestes wolde do it truely, wolde more profyte then all the sacramentes in the worlde. Now ye wote well his conclusyon must nedys be thys: And therfore it foloweth that ys apostles lefte no necessary thyng vnwryten. Ys not thys a madde concluded argument? And yet are there in hys wordes mo folyes then one besyde. For graunted that presthed was an offyce/ yet myghte that offycer be consecrated wyth a sacrament, and so was in dede. And a parte of hys offyce was also to mynyster the sacramentes to the people. Now yf that offyce well occupyed, were more profytable then all the sacramentes besydes: what letteth ys the other sacramentes to be good and necessary to saluacyon. Were thys a wyse argument? Better is it to forbere synne then to do penaunce for synne/ ergo to do penaunce for synne is not necessary. Now after thys goodly argu- ment goeth he to another as gay, and sayth. Tyndale. And agayne, Goddys holynesses stryue not one agaynste a nother, nor defyle one a nother. Theyr sacramentes defyle one a nother. For wedlocke defyleth presthed, more then horedome, thefte, murther, or any synne agaynst nature. More. Here is but one argument, and that but shorte/ but here be two lyes longe & lowde inough. For fyrst where he groundeth hym selfe vppon thys, That goddes holynesses stryue not one agaynst anothet, nor defyle one another: he sayeth playne false and agaynst holy scrypture quyte. For the beryenge of dede men, euer was and is an holy dede and well alowed wyth god/ and yet wolde he not suffer the bysshoppe to bery any man, and though it were hys father. And also yf Tyndale wyll abyde by thys: eyther he niuste say that perpetuall vyrgynyte is nought and not holy, contrary to saynt Poule and our sauyour hym selfe, who take it and teche it for holy and preferre it before wedloke wyth hys worke/ or [Li] ellys he must say that wedlokke with hy worke is nought and not holy, whyche god hym selfe bothe blessed and commaunded in paradyse / and whyche holy scrypture com- mendeth, where it sayth that wedlokke is honorable where the bedde is vndefyle wyth auowtry. And then must he confesse also that hys owne mayste Marten Luther (yf the worke of wedlokke be fowle and synfull) hat synfully double defyled hym selfe wyth weddynge of hys nonne. Or elles fynally muste he confesse hym selfe for a fole, in sayenge that goddys holynesse stryue not one agaynst another/ but yf he saue hym selfe and saye, that perpetuall vyrgynite and the worke of wedlokke be not repugnaunt the tone to ys tother/ and then he shall not ned to confesse hym selfe a fole, for the hole worlde wyll confesse it fo hym. Now maketh he another ly/ where he sayth that wedlok defyleth prestehed more then horedome, thefte, murder, or any synne agayns nature. For yf he say this as of hym self/ it is a folysshe lye. But yf he saye it as he doeth in the person of the catholyke chyrche, to make men byleue that ys chyrche techeth so: then is it a very malycyouse lye. For it is not trew, nor the chyrche techeth not so. For the chyrche playnly techeth that horedome, thefte, murder, and synne agaynste nature, coude neuer be lawfull neyther to preste nor lay man. But the chyrche bothe knoweth and confesseth, that wedlok and prestehed be not repugnaunt but compatyble of theyr nature/ and that wedded men haue ben made prestes and kepte styll theyr wyues. But syth perpetuall chastyte and ys forberynge of the worke of wedlokke, is more acceptable to god then the worke of wedlokke in matrymony: therfore ye chyrche taketh none to be prestes but suche as promyse and professe neuer to be maryed, but kepe perpetuall chastyte. And the doth mary- age after ys promyse made, not by reason of the presthed taken vppon them, but by reason of the promyse made vnto god and broken: defyle the preste, I wyll not dyspute whyther as mych as thefte, murder, or ys synne agaynst nature/ but I am sure as mych as horedome doth. For syth the maryage is no maryage/ it is but horedome it selfe. And I am sure also that it defyl- eth the preste more then dowble and treble horedome/ syth that hys maryage beynge as it is vnlawfull, and therby none other but hore- dome, doth openly rebuke and shame two sacramentes there at ones, ys is both presthed & matrimony/ & besydes that not [Liv] onely commytteth horedom, but also sayth openly that he wyl commytte 2s horedome / and as a bolde beste and a shamelesse whoremaster, playnely professeth afore the face of god and all crysten people, that in stede and dyspyght of his professed chastite, he commeth there to bynde hym self to shamelesse perpetuall horedom. And thus good crysten reders ye se, how well this wyse argument serueth hym. And now putteth he after yt his great solemne questyon, where he fyndeth in scrypture that women may crysten chyldren / whyche ioyneth to his wordes byfore, nere inough in the boke, but in reason as farre of as the scrypture that he layeth therfore, is farre of from ys mater/ as I haue touched before. And surely thorow all his boke and almoste euery thyng that he maketh, sometyme the chapyters, sometyme the paragraphes and reasonynges wythin the chapyter, haue so euyll dependence one towarde a nother/ that yt semeth ys mater to be gathered by dyuerse folke/ and as they come to hym in dyuerse papers, so he wythout order and at auenture patcheth in hys peces nothynge lyke to gether, wyth great sakke semys, and some seme rent bytwene. And in lyke- wise ioyneth he now the fynall clause of thys chapyter vnto the remanaunte/ so that who so consyder what and how many thynges go betwene yt, and the thynge wheruppon he concludeth yt/ shall surely wene yt were a poysened stynkynge tayle of some stynkynge serpent that were quyte cutte of, & after layed a syde farre from the poysened body. For this is hys fynall clause and hys hole conclusyon. Tyndale. And fynally though we were sure that god hym selfe hadde geuen vs a sacrament what so euer yt were: yet yf the sygnifycacyon were ones loste/ we must of necessite eyther seke vppe the sygnyfycacyon, or put some other sygnyfycacyon of goddes worde thereto, what we ought to do or byleue therby, or ellys put yt downe. For yt is impossyble to obserue a sacrament wythout sygnyfycacyon, but to oure damnacyon. If we kepe the fayth purely, and the lawe of loue vndefyled/ whyche are the sygnyfycacyons of all ceremonyes: there ys no ieobardye to alte, or chaunge the fashyon of the ceremonye, or to putte yt downe yf nede be. More. Lo good readers here ye se finally how well and how wisely, and thereto how vertuousely Tyndale fynysheth thys chapyter. For th whole effecte of all these wordes is in this [Li] worlde nothynge ellys but yt yf god bydde you do a thynge and he tell you not what he meaneth thereby, and for what cause he wyll haue you do it: ye must nedes leue yt vndone, & bydde hym do it hym selfe. Wolde Tyndale (wene you) be well contente wyth hys owne seruaunt, that wolde serue hym of the same fashyon? not do what he byddeth hym tyll he tell hym why he byddeth hym? wold it not haue bycomen Adam well when god forbode hym the tre ofknowledge, to haue asked god agayne why he dyd so/ & saye, tell me god lorde wherfore, and what thou meanest therby, and why sholde I more dye for etynge thereof, then of a nother tre/ tell me thys good lorde ere thou go, for ellys be thy bakke turned onys, I wyll ete therof whyther thou wylte or no. When god taught Moyses the makynge of the tabernacle, the temple, & all thynges bylongynge therunto: wold yt not haue done well in Moyses mouth to haue sayed vnto god: Tell me what yt meaneth that thou wylt haue the tabernacle made of thys maner, or ellys yt shall lye vnmade for me. When our sauyour hym selfe sent out hys dyscyples, and bade them in the con- fyrmacyon of theyr doctryne, lay theyr handes vppon syke folke, and they sholde be hole, and that they sholde anoynt some wyth oyle: wolde yt not (wene ye) haue done very well, that they sholde haue sayd nay, but yf he wolde tell them why laye theyr handes more then speke theyr bare worde, & why anoynt them wyth oyle rather then smere them wyth butter. Surely the deuyll hath made this man madde/ he wolde ellys neuer saye as he sayth. For yf it were impossyble to vse a ceremonye but vnto damnacyon, & ys obedyence to goddes byddyng be euer more dedely synne, but yf the sygnifycacyon be knowen: then lyued the chosen people of god in the olde law in a straung perplexite. Whych what so euer Tyndale say, shall neuer be proued to haue vnderstanden the sygnyfycacyons of all the ceremonyes /.which god expressely com- maunded them to fullfyll and obserue/ though he wolde not that they solde wene that the obseruyng ofthem wythout fayth and other good workes, shuld suffyse them as Tyndale and Luther saye/ that fayth alone shall saue vs wythout good workes/ as they sayed of olde, and as he sayeth now wythout sacramentes to. For this ys his fynall conclusyon of all/ that yf we kepe the fayth and ye law of loue vndefyled, there is no parell at all to alter and [Liv] chaunge the fashyon of the ceremonyes, & to put them downe to/ meanyng as yt semeth that yf we kepe the fayth and beleue wyth Luther that there nedeth no more but fayth/ and then therwyth kepe the lawe of loue after Luthers louynge maner, in lodgynge louers, freres, and nonnes louyngly to gether: then we shall neuer nede to care whether we chaunge or put downe ceremonyes and sacramentes and all. And surely very soth he sayth. For when we fall ones to be contente wyth that: there wyll, but yf we chaunge that mynde and mende, neyther any ceremony nor any sacrament serue vs. And yet yf fayth and loue be as Tyndale here sayth, the sygnyfy- cacyons of all the ceremonyes: what parell is there to kepe all the ceremonyes with them twayne, wythout any other sygnyfycacyons? And thus by Tyndale hys owne tale we shall neyther nede to put them downe, alter, nor chaung them/ where he sayth afore we muste seke the sygnyfycacyons agayne, or put downe the ceremonyes vppon payne of damnacyon. And here haue ye now sene all that euer he sayth, for the profe of the thyng that he hath in this chapiter taken in hande to proue/ that is to wyt that the apostles haue lefte wryten in serypture all thynges that of necessyte perteyne to ys soule helth, both in thynges to be done, & thynges to be byleued. And now perceyue ye perfitely also/ ys all that euer he sayth, there is not any one thynge that to the profe of his purpose serueth hym worth a rysh. Here myght I now well leue (ye se well) as for thys mater/ syth I haue suffycyently confuted and auoyded clerely all that Tyndale hath alledged for hys parte in thys chapyter/ in whyche he wold proue that ys apostles haue lefte wryten in holy scrypture euery thynge necessarye to be byleued or done, for the saluacyon of our soules/ and that so fully, that what so euer is not wryten in scrypture, nor deduced theruppon (by whyche deducyng what he meaneth I haue by his owne example shewed you) that thynge is not as he sayth to be byleued nor to be done of necessyte / but men be at theyr lybertie in all such maner thynge to do yt or doyt not, byleue yt or byleue yt not, or rather in synne to byleue yt or do yt, though all the catholyque chyrche of Cryste both do byleue, and many hundred yeres haue byleued ys the thyng is of necessyte to be done or byleued. In whyche mater as I [Li] saye, syth Tyndale hath fayled of his profe, I myght here make an ende/ sauynge that I haue thought yt conuenyent for his more vtter confusyon, to brynge in by and by suche thynges, as I fynde writen by hym for his parte in this mater bysyde/ that ye maye se wythout farther sekynge for yt, all that he can saye at ones. I shall therfore shew you his answeres to suche thynges, as I in the.xxv. chapyter of ys fyrst boke of my dyaloge alledged/ for the profe that all necessarye thynges were not wryten in scrypture, but some suche onely taught and delyuered vnto the chyrch by mouth. And when ye shall here haue herde Tyndales answeres vnto those thynges: ye shall then the more clerely perceyue how foule a fall he hath in thys mater, vppon whyche the greate parte of all hys heresyes dependeth/ and ouer that ye shall ryght easely iudge what pyth and substaunce is in his boke of answeres, wherwyth he wolde fayne seme clerely to confute my dyaloge. I shewed there in my dialoge by the authorite of saynte Iohan the euangelyste in ye laste chapyter of hys gospell/ that all thyng was not wryten. For there he sayth hym selfe, Many thynges dyd Iesus / whyche yf they were all wryten, the worlde wold not receyue ys bokes. To thyvs answereth Tyndale thus. Tyndale. He iugleth. For Iohan meaneth of the myracles whyche Iesus dyd / and not of the necessarye poyntes of the fayth. More. Ye se well now that Tyndale well feleth, that syth ys euangelystes dyd not go togyther by appoyntement to wryte theyr gospels/ nor when they hadde wryten them conferred theyr bokes togythey, to se whyther euery necessary poynte were wryten in amonge them all/ or ellys at that collacyon to put it in some one/ as we fynde that saynt Poule had conference wyth Peter and other of the apostles, to come and speke of the fayth amonge them, but not to wryte it all out in bokes/ but euery cuangelyste of occasyon offred vnto hym selfe, as god put in hys mynde and remembraunce, wrote hys owne gospell seuerally by hym selfe, and theyr epystles in lyke wyse/ and peraduehture one of them in all theyr lyues neuer redde the gospell that the tother wrote: thys I saye beynge thus, excepte that god besyde theyr pur- pose prouyded, y amonge them all euery necessary poynte sholde [Liv] be wryten (whyche thynge Tyndale neyther doth nor can by reason or scrypture proue) ellys yf any, of them lefte vnwryten any poynt necessary to be byleued, Tyndale can not saye but that euery of the other apostles myghte do ye same/ and then hath Tyndale no surety that euery suche thynge was wryten. And therfore Tyndale feleth full well how nere this place of saynt Iohan prykketh hym/ yf in those wordes of saynte Iohan myghte be vnderstanden that he had not wryten euery necessary poynt of our as bylefe. And therfore to auoyde this pynche/ Tyndale sayth that I iugle. For saynte Iohan he sayeth ment onely of Crystes myracles/ and not of any necessary poynt of the fayth. I iugle not. For I saye not nay but yt saynt Iohan ment of myracles. And in the tone place of the twayne he speketh of myracles by name/ sayenge Iesus wroughte many other myracles in the presence of hys dyscyples that be not wryten in thys boke. In the tother place in the very ende he sayth yt Cryste dyd many other thynges/ whyche yf they shold be all wryten, all the worlde coude not receyue the bokes ys sholde be wryten. In whyche wordes I denye not but that saynte Iohan ment of Crystes myracles to, & therfore I iugle not. But Tyndale that in that seconde place where sayntc Iohan meneth no myracles, there excludeth hys doctryne/ & wolde make vs wene tha saynt Iohan lefte not vnwryten any necessary point of fayth: he iugleth & goth about to begyle vs. I thynke he taketh not so grete holde vppon this word, dyd/ in that saynt Iolian sayth, Cryste dyd many other thynges, and sayth not Cryste taughte many other thynges. For thys worde doynge, includeth techynge, talkyng, spekyng, and all. As yf a man wold saye / Cryst prayed, preched, and taught/ this dyd he daye and nyght. And therfore syth saint Iohans hole boke, was made not onely of Crystes myracles but also of hys doctryne & as well wordc as dede/ and then he sayth in the very ende of hys boke, that Cryste dyd many thynges mo, wherof yf all were wryten the worlhe coude not receyue th~ bokes: why maye not thys be vnderstanden of wordes and dcde and all/ but yf Tyndale wene that the bokes wolde be Me fewer yf the doctryne were in them to. But now let vs se whyther of vs two playe the false iugeler/ I that tell you that euery necessary poynt of bylefe is not wryten in saynt Iohans gospell/ or Tyndalc that wolde [Li] make you wene tha what so euer ye fynde not wryten there, ye were not bounden to take it for any necessary poynt of fayth. For ellys yf Tyndale wolde graunte that saynt Iohan had not wryten in dede euery necessary poynt of fayth: then is it as good for Tyndale that saynt Iohan say so, as that in dede it be so. Let vs therfore leue disputyng vppon y word, and loke vppon the dede, and se whyther it be so or not. If a man seke amonge the other euangelystes: he shall fynd mo necessary thynges then one lefte out in saynt Iohan/ and in eche of them som. what that some other hath. And yf a man loke ferther in the boke o fayth, wryten in the hartes of Cristes hole catholyke chyrche: he shal fynde some thynges ys none of them all hath wryten, and yet neces- sary poyntes of fayth/ as I haue shewed you samples and shall. Rut now bycause of Tyndale/ let vs take some one. And what thyng rather then ys last souper of Cryste, hys maundye with hys apostles/ in whych he instytuted the blessed sacrament of the auter, hys owne blessed body and blode. Is this no necessary poynt of fayth? Tyndale can not deny it for a necessary poynt of fayth/ & though it were but of hys owne false fayth agreynge wyth Luther, Huskyn, or zuinglius. And he can not saye that saynte Iohan speketh any thynge therof, specyally not of the instytucyon. Nor he can not saye that saynt Iohan speketh any thyng of the sacrament at all, syth that hys secte expressely denyeth that saynt Iohan ment the sacra- ment in hys wordes, where he speketh expressely therof in the.vi. chapyter of hys gospefl. And thus ye se howe wysely Tyndale stykketh wyth me in the sentence of saynte Iohans wordes/ when the thynge ys I entende thereby is proued by his dede. And yet bycause Tyndale wyll nothynge alowe but the word/ if he pufl fro me yt word of saynt Iohan: I shall proue hym the same purpose by the worde of saynte Iohans mayster, our sauyour Cryste hym selfe / and saynte Iohan shall bere me recorde that yt was Cryste that sayed yt. For oure sauyour lo as wytnesseth saynte Iohan in the.xvi. chapiter, sayed vnto his dyscyples hym selfe: I haue yet many thynges to saye to you, but ye can not bere them now / but when that the spyryte of trewth ys come, he shall teache you all trewth. Lo here ye here our sauyour saye hym selfe, that he lefte and wolde leue some thynges, and that great thynges, and [Liv] therfore of lykelyhed necessarye/ that they sholde not here tyll after his passyon, that the holy goost sholde come and teache them/ and well ye wote that saynte Iohan endeth his boke byfore. And therfore as for thys authoryte of saynte Iohan, ys I layed in my dialoge: Tyndales answere wherin he calleth me a iugler, hath not yet iugled awaye the force/ but hath by his false caste of iuglynge, fetely conuayed hym self out of the fryenge panne, fayre into the fyre. Where as I shew in my dyaloge that yt is not wryten in scrypture that our ladye was a perpetuall virgyne, and yet yt is a necessarye poynt to be byleued: This is his answere thereto. Tyndale. And how bryngeth he in the perpetuall virgynite of our lady / whych though yt be neuer so trew, is yet none artycle of our fayth to be saued by / but we byleue yt wyth a storye fayth, bycause we se no cause resonable to thynke the contrarye. More. By this answere yt appereth well, that god be thanked he fyndeth not yet the peoples deuocyon so farre fallen from our lady/ that he dare be bolde to saye all that he thynketh. For ellys he wolde saye more then he doth. And lyke as be forbedeth folke to pray to her / and specially mysselyketh her deuowt antem of <2Salue regina:>2 so wolde he not fayle yf he saw the people frame all after hys fantasye, to blaspheme her in this mater of a nother fashion / as other of his felowes haue done byfore his dayes. But now for the meane whyle he is contente ys men may thynke them selfe at lybertye to byleue it or not byleue yt as they lyste, as a thynge of no necessyte to be byleued vppon saluacyon of our soules. And full well he woteth, that though he say now that he can se no reason why to thynke the contrary: yet if he could bryng vs ones in the mynde that there is no parell therin, he myght afterward well inough tell vs when he wolde the contrarye/ and sayethat wyth better lokynge theron, he hath now founden that Eluidius & other elder heretyques of the same sewte, sayde therin very well, and that reason and scrypture is wyth them/ and that saynt Austayne and saynte Hierome & all ys remanaunt say wrong, bycause theyr parte is not wryten in scrypture. This wyll not Tyndale herafter let to say when he lyst/ yf he maye make vs wene in the meane whyle that we maye [Mi] chuse whyther we wyll byleue thys poynt or not. But I saye that in that poynte Tyndale sayeth wronge. For in any suche thynge as we be bounden to byleue/ yf I byleue yt in dede, & yet byleue therwyth that I maye lawfully chuse whether I wyll byleue yt or not: I saye that in so byleuynge I byleue nought, nor my bylyefe shall not serue me. Then saye I farther that this artycle is suche, that we be bounden to byleue yt. For he that byleueth yt not is an heretyque/ as yt playnely appereth both by saynt Austayn in his boke to <2quod vult deus/>2 and by saynte Hierome in hys boke agaynste Heluidius/ and by the other holy sayntes and martyrs, who as saynt Hierome & saynt Austayne reherse, dyd wryte agaynste heretykes byfore / & called them Antidichomarians, that is to say Maries aduersaryes. Then say I fynally that for as mych as it well & playne appereth, that all those holy connynge men and blessed sayntes/ & therwyth all the whole catholyke chyrch bysyde, haue euer hytherto taken the faytph and11 virginyte of our blessed lady for so sure a poynte of crysten fayth and bylyefe, ys they haue euer condemned the contrary for an heresye/ and then syth ys artycle is not in holy scrypture wryten, but ys the wordes of scrypture not well vnderstanden, seme to say the contrary: I may & do agaynst Tindale & his felowes well and fully conclude, that there is some thynge necessary to be byleued, and yet is not writen in scripture. And so to my secund argument, ye fynde his answere fonde. For as for his story fayth/ wyth onely whych he sayth we byleue this poynt: I shall touche yt I trust in such wyse, & his felynge fayth therwyth when I come thereto/ that euery man shall fele wyth hys fyngers endes, that Tyndale feleth neyther fayth, lernynge, reason, wyt, nor grace. I alledged in my dialoge the wordes of saynte Poule to ys Corynthies, where he wryteth vnto them of the holy howsell: As our lorde hath delyuered yt to me, so haue I delyuered yt to you. To this doth Tyndale answere thus. Tyndale. And when he alledgeth paule to the Corinthies: I say that Paule neuer knewe of this worde masse/ neither can any ma, gather therof any straunge holy gestures, but the playne contrary/ and that there was no nother vse there then to breke the brede among them at soper, as Crist dyd. And therfore he callethit Cristes super and not masse. More. Here goth Tyndale aboute to iugle/ but his gallys be to [Miv] greate. I layed those wordes for none other cause, but to proue that yo apostle byfore his wrytynge taught them that great mystery by mouth/ and shewed them the manner hym selfe byfore his pystle writen / which he wold not haue wryten vnto them at all, yf he myght then conueniently haue ben present wyth them. And now where I sayed that yt was well lykely, that of saynt Poule by his present tradycyon was receyued holy gestures as the chyrche vseth in the consecracyon: he answereth me that there is no suche thyng there spoken in the pystle. Whyche I sayed not there was/ but I say that he fyndeth no worde in the pystle that proueth that saynt Poule therin wrote euery thyng ys he presently spake or dyd. But yt appereth well ys saynt Poule speketh of that thynge in that chapyter, not to put in wrytynge all thynge that he hadde byfore tolde them by mouth <2/>2 but onely to put them in remembraunce that the thyng whyche they there receyued in the forme of brede, though yt were called brede, was yet in dede the very blessed bodye of Cryste. And for the more clere profe therof: he put them in remembraunce/ that as he hadde byfore shewed them, our sauyour hym self told hym so. And this he remembred them of by wrytyng, to make them vse them self there after the more reuerently. For lakke wherof he wryteth to them, that sykenesse and deth by ys vengeaunce of god fell amonge them/ bycause they dyd not vse suche reuerence & honour as they sholde do to the precyouse body and blessed blood of Cryste. And in that chapiter saynt Poule speketh but of certayne vnreuerent poyntes in specyall/ and concludeth sayeng, <2c@tera autem quum venero disponam/>2 the remanaunt or all the other thynges, I wyll myself order at my commyng. Here may we se what so euer Tyndale saye, that saynte Poule bysyde thys that he wrote of the sacrament, gaue the people other tradycyons thereof by mouth (as I sayde in my dialoge) per- teynynge to the reueience and honour therof, and Tyndale sayeth here the contrarye. But now let the boke be iudge/ and by that chapiter iudge also the false fayth of Tyndale, that sayth yt is synne to do any honour to yt. And where Tyndale sayth that saynt Poule neuer knewe thys worde masse, I byleue that well inough/ for I neuer herd that he spake any word of englyshe. But that he knew not the thynge that englyshe men call the masse/ Tyndale hath not proued yet, nor wyll not do this weke. For he must [Mi] proue yt better then by that saynte Poule spake of goddes supper. For we call the howselynge of the people goddes borde and Crystes table/ and yet we know the masse to for all that besyde. And ys apostles them selfe I dowte not sayd masse many a tyme & oft before any gospell wryten. And holy saynte Chrysostheme sayeth that the apostles in the masse prayed for all crysten soules. Where as I sayd that of ye apostles tradicyon was lerned ys maner of consecracyon: ys answcreth Tyndale in this wise. Tyndale. A great dowte/ as though we c,u1de not gather of the scrypture how to do yt. More. Surely men settynge no more therby then Tyndale and his felowes do: may gather out of the gospell or the pystle eyther, or out of what they wyll, the maner of the consecracyon, & saynge of the masse that shall serue them self/ whyle they say yt they care not how, & byleue they care not what/ whyle they byleue yt to be none oblacyon, hoste, nor sacryfyce/ nor the body nor blood of Criste to be in the sacrament/ nor that the masse doth any man good at all, saue onely to the preste him selfe. For what care they how they say masse/ whyche the more synfull they be, and the more encombred con- scyence that they haue/ the more encombred, & ys more boldely as Luther byddeth in Babilonica, presume they to goddes borde. But vndouted who so haue a reuerent care therof, and ryght fayth of the sacrament/ well perceyueth that how to saye masse hathe ben taught the apostles by the spiryte of god, and by the apostles forth. And yf Luther, frere Huskyn, zwinglius, Tyndale, and Lam- bert, hadde neuer knowen it afore/ but shold haue taken the scrip- ture in theyr handes, and eche of them deuyse a maner of sayng masse by hym selfe: I dare well saye for all Tyndales boste, eche of them sholde haue deuysed a sondry fashyon, and yet neuer one of the ryght. For profe wherof Luther canon of the masse / frameth after his fonde fashyon a maner of consecracyon and saynge of the masse in hys boke of Babilonica. Whyche folyshe inuencyon of hys Rosseus impugneth and playnely proueth, that sauyng for the tradycyon of the chyrche, Luther coulde neuer tell how or in what wyse to consecrate or saye masse/ and that ys way that Luther deuyseth is vnsuffycyent and vncertayne by Luthers awne rule. And I doute not but that Tyndale hathe [Miv] redde both Rosseus and Luther in those places / and therfore I meruayle so myche the more that he dare be so bolde to saye yt/ when beynge hym selfe but Luthers scoler, he seeth his mayster made a fole therin all redy. Where as I in my dialoge alledge, that the preste in tlie consecra- cyon putteth water in to the wyne, where as the scrypture speketh but of wyne: therto answereth Tyndale thus. Tyndale. A great dowte also and a perilouse case yf yt were lefte out. For eyther yt was done to slake the hete of the wyne/ or put to after a ceremonye, to signifye that as the water;s chaunged into wyne, so are we chaunged thorow fayth as yt were into Cryste, and are one wyth hym. How be yt all is to iheyr owne shame, that ought sholde be done or vsed amonge vs crysten wherof no man wiste the meanynge. For yf I vnderstode not the meanynge/ yt helpeth me not one corne. I. Corinth. 14. and as experience teacheth. But yf our sheperdes had bene as wyllynge to fede as to shere: we hadde neded no such dispycyence, ner they to haue burnt so many as they haue. More. Where Tyndale sayth in skorne (as he gladly scorneth alway when he speketh of the sacrament) ys yt were a great doute and a perylouse case to leue the water oute: I am very sure that yf there hadde be no dowte nor parell to leue yt out/ there was neuer good crysten man that any reuerence hadde to Cryste, but he wold haue put great dowte, & haue thought yt great parell to put any water in. For what beste wolde be so bolde when he fyndeth not that Cryste in the conse- cracyon and chaunge of the wyne into hys owne blood, vsed any other thynge then wyne / and spake also hym selfe of the onely lycoure of ys grape: who durste I say haue put therto any thynge ellys/ and to haue consecrated his blood of wyne and water. But one thynge is there ys maketh Tindale in this poynt so bolde/ ys is to wyt his owne spyrytuall rule that he so myche bosteth of, in serchyng out the cause, and then rulynge all thynge by some cause of his owne makynge. As here, he gesseth here two causes why the water is putte in. And though he wote nere whyther of the twayn is the trewth/ yet he maketh hym selfe sure that yt must nedys be the tone. And then rekeneth he ys causes both twayne so substancyall/ that yt maketh in his mynde no mater whyther the thyng be done or vndone. Luther was hym selfe also so meshed in thys mater, when [Mi] the kynges hyghnesse layed agaynste hym the puttynge of the water into the wyne, that in hys frantyke answere he fared as Tyndale doth here/ and not wyttynge what to saye therto, began to gesse at the cause wherfore it was put in: wherin he sought so farre/ that at last he founde, ys whyther it were in or out it made no mater, bycause he sayd it was a thynge impertynent to the mater/ so ys by hym a man myght put into the wyne what he wolde besyde. Yet then founde he forther that it is euyll done to put it in. For he sayed it had an euyll sygnyfycacyon <2/>2 and sygnyfyed that the syncerite of scrypture was watered with mennes tradycyons. Lo so was he bewrapped therin, that he coude not in thys worlde wyt what to say therto/ but farynge lyke a frantyque fole, and answerynge thys and that he wyste nere what nor at what poynt to holde hym, fynally fell to blasphemy. And now his good scolar Tyndale wyll be nothynge a knowen of hys maysters foly, but diuyneth and deuyseth two new causes of hys owne brayne/ and affyrmeth that some one of those twayne muste nedys be the very cause/ as though god hym selfe coude fynde no ferther cause then Tyndale hath serched out/ and then he theruppon con- cludeth, that the water may be as well lefte out as put in. But what so euer Tyndale saye/ there was neuer good man yet thys.xv.C. yere that durste leue it out/ nor other wyse vse it then god hath taught his apostles with his owne worde vnwryten eny otherwyse then in crysten hartes. Holy sayntes also haue thought vppon other causes. For some haue thought that god ordayned the water to be mengled wyth the wyne, as the water welled out wyth the blood out of hys blessed harte vppon the crosse. And holy saynt Cypriane that connynge doctour and blessed martyr theruppon sayth, that our sauyour hym selfe at the tyme of the insty- tucyon of that blessed sacrament, dyd put water in to wyne, though there was no mencyon made therof in the wrytyng/ no more then there was of dyuers other thynges that our sauyour dyd as saynt Iohan sayth, & that he wolde haue to be done in hys chyrche euer after. Of whyche thynges thys infusyon of water is one, taught vn- doughtedly by god to hys apostles, and by them forth/ and so thys .xv. hundred yeres contynued in Crystes chyrche wythout any mencyon therof made in scrypture, & yet men of necessyte bounden to obserue it/ nor no man euer thought or durst thynke the [Miv] contrary, tyll now Luther and Tyndale and suche other of theyr sorte, whyche set so lytell by that blessed sacrament, ys they wolde haue all honour and reuerence taken from it, and rekened for a bare sygne set but onely to sygnyfye, wythout any geuynge of grace/ and therfore they wolde haue yt homely handeled how so euer men lyste. Deuyse ones some sygnyfycacyon/ & then wold those heretykes by theyr wyflys, that in stede of wyne and Water, men wolde consecrate new ale in cornes. Now where he sayth ys it is the shame of ys clergy if aught be vsed amonge crysten men, wherof no man wyste the meanynge: why more then for Moyses to delyuer and leue to the people many ceremonyes commaunded by god, wherof the people what so euer Tyndale saye neuer vnderstode the meanynge. Wold the wyse man that yf god bydde a man do a thynge/ he shall saye hym nay but yf he tell hym why? Then fynysheth he this mater wyth a proper taunt, that yf our shepeherdes were as willynge to fede as to shere: we hadde neded no suche dyspycyons/ nor they to haue burned so many as they haue. Lo ys great faute that Tyndale fyndeth in ys the prelates do not as he doth, deuyse causes at auenture and warraunt them for trewe/ nor leue out the water boldely vppon hys goostly consayle now, agaynste the fayth of all faythfull folke this.xv. hondred yere byfore. And where he layeth that ys slaknesse of fedyng hath caused so many to be burned: I wyll not saye naye but that yt myght haue ben better with some, if there had ben vsed more dilygence in preachyng. But as for many such as haue ben burned/ all the prechynge in the world wold not haue holpen theyr obstynacy. But sure yf ys prelates had taken as good hede in tyme as they sholde haue done: there sholde peraduenture at length fewer haue ben burned therby. Bu there shold haue ben mo burned by a great many then there haue ben wythin this seuen yere laste passed. The lakke whereof I fere me will  make mo burned within this seuen yere next commynge/ then ellys sholde haue neded to haue ben burned in seuen score. Where I alledged the chaunge of the sabbaoth daye into the sonday wythout scrypture: thereto he answereth thus. Tyndale. As for the sabbaoth a great mater. We be lordes ouer the sabbaoth day, and (Mi] may yet chaunge yt into the monday, or any other day as live se nede/ or may make euery tenth day holyday onely yf we se a cause why. We may make two euery weke yf yt were expedient, and one not inough to teache the people. Neyther was there any cause to chaunge yt from the satterdaye, then to put dyfference betwene vs and the Iewes/ and leste we shuld be come seruauntes vnto the daye after theyr superstycyon. Neyther neded we any holy day at all, yf the people myght be taught wythout yt. More. Tyndale maketh the chaunge of the sabbat daye a very sleyght mater. And bycause that our sauyour sayde ofhym selfe, that the sonne of man, that is to wytte he hym selfe was lorde of the sabbat daye: therefore as though euery man were god almyghty his felow, Tyndale sayth that we be lordes of the sabbat day, so that we may chaung the sondaye into mondaye. He sayth that there was neuer cause to chaung it fro satterday, but onely to put a difference betwene vs & ys Iewes, and leste we sholde bycome seruauntes vnto the daye after theyr superstycyon. but I thynke there was bysyde thys a nother cause more pryncypall then any of both those. For ys Iewes and the crysten hadde other dyfferences and dystynccyons betwene them/ aS baptysme and cyr- cumcysyon. Nor yt hadde not ben so great inconuenience that they shold both haue serued god on one daye, that for the auoydyng therof we sholde haue lefte the daye that god hym selfe appoynted in the begynnynge. And also crysten men both myght haue kepte the same daye that the Iewes kepte, and yet haue left the superstycyon therof that the Iewes vse. And may nowe also (as happely some do) kepe the sonday wyth lyke superstycyon as the Iewes do the saterday. And therefore these causes be but dyuyned and gessed at, and seme but very secundary. But the very cause of the chaung is/ that men were not the lordes of the sabbatday, nor men were not the pryn- cypall authours and makers ofthe chaunge. But the sonne of man our sauyour Cryste hym selfe, beynge (as he sayde hym selfe) lorde euen ouer the sabbatday to/ and whyche as god hadde made and ordeyned the sabbatdaye for man and not man for the sabbatday, and yet neuerthelesse subdued man vnto certayne order of seruynge not the sabbatday but god vppon the sabbatday. he I saye hym selfe when he delyuered the people from the obseru- aunce of the olde law, dyd as lorde of the sabbatday, dyscharge them of the sabbatday. [Miv] And yet bycause they sholde not haue suche a lordely mynde aS Tyndale here teacheth vs to haue/ as to thynke they myght at theyr pleasure take what day they wolde, and make and breke as they lyste: he appoynted them hym selfe and his owne holy spyrite, the day of his owne resurreccion. Whyche gloryouse rysynge of his blessed body not onely to reste, but also to eternall glory: it pleased hym to haue wekely celebrate wyth the restynge day drawen from worldely besynes, to the desyre of heuen & acceptable seruyce of god. And for this is yt and euer hath ben specyally called our lordes daye. Wherofto say that we be now the lordes and able to chaunge yt to fryday for our pleasure, or turne yt to euery tenth day when we lyste: I wene that none wyll saye so but lurdanes, ys longed to make gaudyes of goddeS passyon, or make hym honored selder then he shold. For as for nede/ fell there neuer none such yet, to chaunge this day ys Cryste hath ordeyned hym self And he is as able to kepe it from such nede of chaunge for euer here after/ as he hath kepte yt this.xv. hundred yere byfore. If Tyndale stykke styll in this poynte/ & say the chyrche made yt, and the chyrch may breke yt: I say that the chyrch as yt made yt so yt maye breke yt. That is to wyt that as yt made yt by the spiryte as of god, so yt may breke yt by the same spiryte. That is to say that as god made yt, so hym self may breke yt, yf yt so shall please hym. For in suche thynges though the chyrche haue ordeyned yt: yet hata the chyrche not done yt but the spiryte of god / as holy saynte Austayne sayth in the receyuynge of our howsell, where he sayth that yt hath pleased the holy goost, that where as in the bygynnynge yt was receyued after other meatys, yt shode be now receyued of folke whyle they be fast- ynge. And in lyke wyse the apostles, to geue vs knowlege that though the chyrche make the ordinaunce, yet the spyryt of god is the worker therof: wrote as is remembred in the.xv. of the actes: It hath pleased ys holy goost and vs, & so forth shewed what lawes they had made/ declarynge therby that though them selfe made them, yet made they them not wythout the mocyon of goddes holy spiryte. And neuer shall the whole catholyque chyrche, neyther make wythout god nor breke agayne wythout hym. But he shall wyth hys presence and hys holy spyryte, so gyde and gouerne hys chyrch in suche manner of thynges/ that they shall not chaunge [Ni] the sondaye neyther of lordely mynde, pleasure, nor necessyte. Nor I thynke he shall neuer suffer the chyrch to chaunge it. But it is a chaunge ones so made and establysshed by our sauyour hym selfe, that as ys saterdaye was ordeyned by god hym selfe to stande vnchaunged tyll Cryst came/ so 2, is Crystes daye so ordeyned by hym selfe, yt it shall stande vn- chaunged tyll hym selfe come agayne, & chaunge all the weke and all the yere to into one eternall daye wythout eyther weke or yere. And thys chaunge hath he made I saye fro saterdaye to sondaye hym selfe wythout scrypture/ whyche we be bounden wythout scrypture obedyentely to kepe and obserue, what so euer Tyndale bable and scoffe agaynste it. For where Tyndale sayth that we be suche lordes ouer it, that we maye chaunge and make our sabbatdaye as well vppon any other daye as vppon the sondaye: I wolde wyt of hym whyche we? whyther the hole catholyke chyrche, or euery pertyculare prouynce/ and yf so, then euery dyocyse/ and by the same reason, euery parysshe by it selfe/ and then any howsholde/ and fynally any one man is by hym selfe at the same lybertye to kepe for hys owne sabbat daye whyche daye he lyste hym selfe, and nede not to come to chyrche wyth other but whan there is a sermone. And then ye wote well thys waye wolde do well. Now yf he meane by we, all we the hole chyrche of Cryst by a comen consent: then must he tell vs whyche is it, and then muste he nedes assygne a knowen chyrche. Where is then becomen hys heresye of theyr secrete vnknowen chyrche of electes and penytentes wythout penaunce? And where he sayth we nede none holydaye at all, yf the people myghte be taught wythout it: thys is one drawght of hys poyson putte forth vnder the swete pretexte of preachynge. Wherby syth preachynge is necessary/ he wolde make men byleue that commynge to chyrche on the holyday, or there to honour god wyth dyuyne seruyce and prayour, were but a thynge of nought/ where as the apostles came them selfe in to the temples in the holydayes to praye. And our sauyour alledgeth hym selfe the wordes of Esay: My howse shall be called the howse of prayour. Now where as I alledged in my dyaloge the wordes of saynte Poule vnto the Thessalonycenses, to whom he wryteth in thys wyse: Kepe you my tradycyons whych I haue [Niv] taken you, eyther by worde or letter: to this doth Tyndale answere no thynge to me, but thys. Tyndale. I haue to that answered Rochester in the obedience/ that his tradi- cyons were the gospell that he preached. More. In very dede Iyndale in hys boke of disobedyence laboreth sore to wade out of those wordes of saynte Poule/ in whyche as my lorde of Rochester sayed, it appereth playne that saynt Poule sayth hym selfe that he taught thydges by mouth whyche he wrote not. And what sayth Tyndale to it there? he sayth nothyng ellys in this world but as he sayth here/ that ys thynges whiche saynt Poule taught by mouth, were the selfe same thynges that he wrote. And then goeth he forth wyth a longe babelary, parte to no purpose & parte playne heresye/ and fareth as though hym selfe had standen by all the whyle that saynt Poule taughte any thynge by mouth. Now whyther hys wordes be to pur- pose or not/ I pray you consyder your selfe. We saye that these sacramentes and many holy ceremonyes vsed in hte chyrche in the masse and in other partes of dyuyne seruyce/ were taught by the spyryte of god and delyuered by hys blessed apostles. Nay sayth Tyndale ys coude not be / for all necessarye thynges ys they taught they wrote. Proue that say we and take all. But we wyll proue by saynt Poules owne wordes, that he taught thinges that he wrote not. For he byddeth the Thessalonicensis kepe and obserue well all that he had taught them, eyther by mouth or letters/ & then that none of them were any necessary poyntes, that poynt we byd Tindale proue. His profe therin ye haue herd before/ that yf ys apostles wrote not all suche thynges, what coude it auayle that they wrote any thinges at all. And that reason ye remember that we haue answered before/ and proued it a great foly, to reken that in our owne realme no law byndeth that is vnwryten, bycause there be many wryten / or that theyr wrytynge were vnprofytable that wrote vs parte, bycause they wrote vs not all. But now in that place of the obedyence, where the rude rybaude rayleth agaynste ys reuerende father my lorde bysshop of Rochester: he sayth styffely that none of those thynges whyche we speke of, and specyally sacra- mentes or ceremonyes, were any of those thynges that saynt Paule taught by mouth. Then aske we [Ni] hym wherby know you that. <2Mary>2 sayeth he,<2for I shall tellyou what he taughte. He taughte the same that>2 <2he wrote/ and hys tradycyons were the gospell that he preached/ and good>2 <2maners and vertues, and some good custumes to, that be synnes for abuses>2 <2chaunged, as kyssynge eche other. And some he taught as Preceptes, and some as>2 <2good counsayles/ as virginite, and wydolye chastyte, not to wynne heuen therby>2 <2(For neyther cyrcumcysyon nor vncyrcumcysyon is any thynge at all, but the>2 <2kepynge of the commaundementes is all togyder) but that they myghte be with->2 <2out trowble, and the better wayte on goddys wordes, and thefrelyer serue theyr>2 <2bretherne.>2 Here I passe by his heresyes, that in these wordes appere bothe agaynst vyrgynyte and wydoly chastyte/ whyche he meaneth to be nothynge worth as touchynge any rewarde to be gyuen for them in heuyn. For though he say no ferther here but that they wynne not heuyn, whyche euery man agreeth: yet meaneth he ferther as he declareth in many other places/ and as it here appereth by hys en- sample of circumcysyon. I let passe also hys heresye concernyng ys cyrcumcysyon, whyche wyth hys false vnderstandynge of saynte Poule, he wolde haue taken to haue standen in no stede at all to warde heuen / and by the same reason no more he wold that bap- tysme neyther, as he hath oftentymes declared. I let passe also/ that by those wordes of saynte Poule whyche hym selfe now bryng, eth in, that the kepynge of the commaundementes is all togyther, hys owne heresyes be ouer throwen. For yf the kepynge of the com- maundementes be all together/ then fayth alone is not all together. But rather as he maketh cyrcumcysyon nothynge, bycause the com- maundementes be all: so myghte he make fayth nothyng bycause the commaundementes be all togyther. But he maketh saynt Poules wordes to serue hym for hys iuglynge stykke. For saynte Poule meaneth of cyrcumcysyon alone in the olde lawe, wyth fayth and good workes/ as saynte Iamys speketh of fayth. And in the new law now it is nothynge at all in dede. These wordes also of saynt Poule destroye Tyndales heresye, that mennys good workes be not rewarded in heuyn / and that it is idolatrye to serue god wyth any bodyly workes, or to do any of them to come the rather to heuen. For yf the kepyng of the commaunde- mentes be all togyther/ and some of them be bodyly workes: a man maye lawfully do them for goddys sake, and to his worshyp to, and haue his rewarde in heuen to. [Niv] But now lettyng these poyntes passe as I saye: I wold aske Tyndale whyther amonge those poyntes that saynte Poule taught by mouth, & whyche he wrote not/ were any thynges necessarye to be byleued or done, vppon parell of our soules helth. If he say ye: then destroieth he his whole reason that he made afore for the contrarye/ where he is sayde that yf the apostles taught any suche thynges & wrote them not, what auayleth all those thynges that they wrote. If he saye nay/ but that all the thynges ys he taught by mouth, were thynges of lytle weyght, and not worth the wrytyng/ and that therfore he wrote vnto the Corinthyes that all the other thynges he wold dispose and ordayne hym selfe at his commynge, bycause he rekened them not worthy to occupy place in hys pystle: yf Tyndale tell vs thys, we wyll aske hym who tolde hym so/ and wherby he knoweth that saynte Poule taught the people by mouth, no mo thynges, nor of none other kynde then Tyndale sayth he dyd. Was hym self at that tyme com- panyon to saynt Poule/ and ys so contynuall and so vnseparable, that daye nor nyght he neuer departed from hym/ but euer watched hym so surely, that he coulde neuer saye nothynge but Tyndale stode by and herd hym? Tyndale in this poynt well perceyueth hym selfe, howe harde a parte he hath to proue. And therfore seynge that he hath entrede a mater that he can not ende/ & hath sayd that he can neuer make good: at laste he waxeth angry. And bycause he can not tell all thynge that saynt Poule taught, as he beganne to take vppon hym: he concludeth nothyng but that saynt Poule taught none of the sacramentes nor ceremonyes that Luther and he reproue. And thus he sayth. Tyndale. But that the apostles gaue vs any blynde ceremonies, whereof we coulde not knowe the reason/ that I denye and also defye. More. Forsoth saue for the ryme I wolde not geue a ryshe, neyther for his denyeng nor for hys defyenge, nor for any reason that he layeth forth therfore. For where he sayth that yt is contrary to the lernynge of saynt Poule euery where: I say that therein Tindale sayth not trew. For saynt Poule reproued but the superstyciouse trust that the iewes hadde, as well in theyr ceremonyes & sacraments, as in the workes of theyr law wythout fayth and iustyce and dedes of cheryte/ and the superstycyon of [Ni] them also that thought theym selfe bounden of necessyte to kepe them styll after the new lawe promulgate and spred about/ when the tyme of those olde ceremonyes, sacramentes, iudycyalles, & all was gone/ sauynge for as farreforth as the chyrch of Cryst by ys spiryte of god hath taken vp any agayne. But let Tyndale brynge of saynt Poule all the places that he possyble can/ and he shall neuer fynde one whyle he lyueth amonge them all, in whyche saynte Poule reproueth any sacrament or ceremony taken vppe and accompted for good thorow Crystes whole catholyque chyrche/ nor yet the iewes for vsynge the ceremonyes geuen by god yses, and by Moyses to them for the tyme whyle they serued, though they knew not the sygnyfycacyons/ excepte yt were for lakke of some other vertue, whych they lefte of & rought not for / and thereby loste the frute of theyre ceremonyes and all. One other thynge he sayth whych he taketh for an hygh poynt, to proue that saynt Poule taught no ceremonyes or sacramentes, but suche as he taught also theyr sygnyfycacyons. And that he proueth thus. Tyndale. Paule commaundeth that no man ones speke in the chyrche that is the congregacyon, butin a tonge that all men vnderstande/ excepte that there be an interpreter by. More. And what than? At suche tyme as the lawe was gyuen fyrste to the chyldern of Israel/ yt was in dede wryten in a tonge that the people vnderstode. But yet the ceremonyes though they were wryten in the same tonge, yet were there many of them that the people neuer vnderstode what they ment, nor peraduenture Moyses neyther/ and yet were they bounden of obedyence to obserue them/ and theyr obedyence was frutefull to, but yf that some other faute made yt lese the frute. And therfore where Tyndale telleth a longe tale yt saynt Paule commaundeth them to labour for knowelege, vnderstandynge, felynge/ and beware of hypocrosye, ceremonyes, and afl maner of dysguysynge, and many such wordes mo, some of saynt Poule & some of his owne planted in among them: hys tale- semeth somwhat solemne, but yt is nothyng substauncyall. For the sacramentes and ceremonys geuen by god vnto his chyrch, be neyther hipocrisye nor iudaycall [Niv] ceremonyes, nor dysguysynges neyther / whyche worde Tyndale setteth in hym selfe in scorne as yt semeth of ys blessed sacrament of ys auter. Nor saynt Poule though he wold haue them labour for knowlege/ meaneth not yet they shall leue the sacra- mentes vnserued which god hath taught, tyll he teche them the knowlege why he taught them, and what specyall sygnyfycacyon euery sacrament & ceremony had. For where as Tyndale rymeth yt out, and sayth that he both denyeth and also defyeth, that the apostles taught any ceremonye wherof the reason coulde not be knowen: for all hys denyeng and also defyenge, a better man then the apostles dyd, our sauyour Cryste hym selfe, when he sent his dyscyples forth to baptyse and to preache/ he taught them how they sholde go and what they sholde do, but the reason and cause of euery ceremony that fynde we not ys euer he taught them/ but at some of them he suffred both them then, and vs euer synnes, to gesse and to dyuyne. For that he wolde haue them neyther bere walet, nor sachell, nor shone vppon theyr fete, nor stykke in theyr hand, nor salute any man by the way, nor why he chose water and baptisme in stede of circumcisyon, nor why he wold they shold lay theyr handes vppon some syke folke whom they shold hele, nor why they shold anoynt syke folke wyth oyle & hele them by that meane: the causes I say and the proper sygnyfycacyons of all these ceremonyes and many other, we fynd not that our sauyour when he sent them shewed them/ and yet he bode them do yt, and they were bounde to obaye and meryted and deserued by theyr obedyence. Myche more then he sholde haue done, who so wolde haue sayde, tell me fyrst good lorde why maye I not putte on my shone, why maye I not take a stykke in myne hande, what arte thou the better though I go bare fote, what shall yt hurte the mater though I bere a stykke, why were yt not as good to smere a syke man wyth butter as anoynt hym wyth oyle/ tell me the causes of all those thynges and ys proper sygnifycacyon ere I go. For ellys to say that I wyll be sent out with such dumme ceremonyes, wherof I know not the causes, that I denye and also defye. He ys thus sholde haue sayd lyke Tyndale/ shold haue goten lytle thanke. And as I haue byfore somwhat sayde / almyghtye god taught is many ceremonyes to Moyses, and he forth to the people/ and neyther can Tyndale nor any man ellys proue [Ni] me by scrypture, that the people vnderstode all theyr sygnyfycacyons/ no nor Moyses neyther. And where is then Tyndales worshyppefull ryme, that I denye and also defye? I lette passe all the ceremonyes taught about the arche, the temple, the sacryfyces, and many other thynges / & wyll wyt but howe Tyndale can proue me that the chyldern of Israell, or as I saye Moyses eyther, vnderstode all the ceremonyes commaunded by god about theyr departyng out of Egypte? why a lambe, why a kydde, why of one yere, why wythout spotte, why taken the.x. daye, why offred the xiiii, why the vengauns of god put fro the house at the token of the blood put vppon the postes, why eaten by nyght, why none lefte tyll the morow, but rather the remanaunt burnte, why vnleuened brede, why wylde letuse. I knowe well god wyste why he commaunded all those ceremonyes/ but I saye Tyndale can not proue that the people vnderstode them all, nor peraduenture that Moyses neyther. If Tyndale yet say that the people vnderstode all those ceremonyes: I wyll fyrste bydde hym proue me that poynt by scrypture. And then for some lykelyhed towarde a profe of the contrary/ I wyll laye forth for authorite agaynst wyllyam Tyndale, the wordes of one man whom Tyndale wold were moste byleued of all men/ that is to wytte the wordes of wyllyam Tyndale hym selfe. For hym selfe sayth in hys boke agaynste me. Tyndale. Cryste axed the apostles Matih. xv, whom they toke hym for. And peter answered for them all/ saynge, I say that thou art Cryste the sonne of the lyuynge god, that art come into this worlde. That is, we byleue that thou art he that was promysed vnto Abraham, shuld come and blesse vs and delyuer vs. How be yt peter yet wyste not by what meanes. But now yt is opened thorow out all the worlde, that thorow the offerynge of hys body and bloude. More. Now syth as Tyndale sayth hym selfe, saynt Peter at yt tyme dyd not knowe by what meane Cryste sholde redeme vs/ and yt is very lykely that saynte Peter al be yt he was not yet fully lerned, dyd yet at ys tyme goynge to scole wyth Cryste, vnderstande as myche at the leste wyse as the comen peple dyd euen in Moyses days: I thynke therfore ys Tyndale sholde hym selfe agre contrary to that hym selfe hathe sayde byfore, that the people vnderstode not all the cere- monyes. And yet I thynke he wyll not saye that they myght at [Niv] that tyme leue all such vndone/ and say as Tyndale sayth, all that vtterly we denye and also defye. I wolde fayne wyt wherfore Tyndale sholde take it for so straunge, that god or hys apostles sholde gyue vnto Crystes chyrche any ceremonyes, wherof they sholde not vnderstande the reason/ when he seeth well that god hath spoken to his people many wordes by his prophetes, and his owne sonne, and hys sonnes apostles to, and caused them to be wryten also in holy scrypture/ in whyche textes men be no more sure of the very sentence then of the very sygnyfycacyon of those ceremonyes. But god hath not wyth- out oure frute lefte suche thynges vn- knowen vnto vs, to quykken & exercyse as saynte Austayne sayth some mennys myndes in the studye and deuysynge theruppon/ whyche yf all were open and playne, wolde waxe neglygent and dull/ and now in the deuysynge theruppon, fynde out good and frutefull thynges, allegoryes and other, not affermynge those to be ys very thynges there entended, but thynges that deuoutely & frutefully may be thereon taken and turne men to deuocyon, and thys as well in the ceremonyes as in those harde and not intellygyble textes. And yf Tyndale deny thys / bycause he woldc seme sure of all thynge, and that there were no place in scryp- ture to hym not vnderstanden: he shall whyle he wolde seme so wyse, proue hym selfe a fole in ys iugement of all men, that any thynge laboure in scrypture. And thus ye se now in what substancyall wyse that Tyndale hath answered my lorde of playne wordes of saynt Poule wryten vnto the Thessaloonycen / by whych wordes he sheweth playnely hym selfe, that he wrote not all that lie taught. And then that these thynges whychr Tyndale im- pugneth, why that they myghte not be among those thynges that saynt Poule taughte by mouth/ ye haue herde I say how wourshyp- fully Tyndale hath proued. I were lothe to leue vntouched any thyng that Tyndale any wherc sayeth agaynste niy purpose in thys mater. And therfore syth I fynde in hys answere to my dyaloge yet a nother patche, wherin I perceyue he taketh great pleasure/ and weneth or wolde at the lest that other men sholde wene, that he had therwyth vtterly proued hys parte and clerely reproued myne: I wyll wythdrawe none of hys glory, and therfore ye. shall here that to. In hys answere to the.xxix. chapyter of my fyrste boke these are hys wordes. [Oi] Tyndale. In the.xxix. chapyter M. More alledgeth, that Cryste sayed not the holy goost shall wryte, but shall teache. It is not the vse to saye the holy goost writeth/ but inspyreth the wryter. More. Properly answered, yf I wolde holde my peace. But I muste put Tyndale agayne in remembraunce bycause he byleueth nothyng but scrypture, and then draweth all the scripture into goddes promyses: I muste therfore I say putte hym in remembraunce that I brought in that authoryte, to shew hym that god made no promyse that he wolde wryte all his new testament, nor cause yt to be made all in bokes/ but that he wolde sende his holy goost to teche his chyrch, & to lede them into euery trouth. And where Tyndale sayth it is not ys vse to say ys holy goost writeth but inspyreth ys wryter/ I say agayne ys the scrypture letteth not to speke of goddes writyng/ & to tell how he wyll wryte his new testament, when he sayth by the mouth of ys prophete Hieremy: I shall geue my law in theyr bowels / & I shall wryte yt in theyr hartes. Lo here he telleth what maner of wrytyng he wyll vse in wrytynge of his newe law/ bycause we shall not excuse our selfe & say, that we wyll not byleue no more thereof then we shall fynde wryten in bokes. He maketh vs no promyse ys he wyll cause it to be wryten in bokes/ but pursuyng these wordes of the prophete, he sayd hym selfe his owne mouth, yt he wolde send the holy goost to come teache hiS chyrche & lede them in to euery trouth. To this will Tyndale happely say in yt word he ment and so dyd ys prophete also, that he wolde wryte yt in the hartes of the euangelystes and apostles, and teache is them & lede them into euery trouth/ whych shold put all the neces- sary trouth in wrytynge. Let Tyndale proue this meanynge by some one text of scripture, or some one necessary reason/ ofwhyche neyther hym selfe, nor any other of his felowes haue founden any one yet. And the wordes as well of the prophete as of our sauyour hym selfe, declare them selfe to the contrary. For the prophete and the euan- gelyste sayth, that they shalbe all goddes owne scolers/ whych sygnyfyeth that the congregacyon and companye shall be taught by god and his spyrite, that shall wryte the new law the ryght fayth in the hartes of hys chyrche. And our sauyour sayd, I shall sende ysholy goost that shall teache you all thynge, and lede you into euery trouth. He sayde not the holy goost shall teche some of you that shall wryte yt out vnto [Oiv] the remanaunt. And therfore Tyndales comely glosewyll not so substauncyally serue hym, as he wolde haue yt seme. For as that holy spiryte enspired mo then them that wrote/ so enspyred he the wryters in mo thynges then they wrote / whych thynges they taught by mouth, and lefte it wyth the people by tradycyon as god lefte it wyth them/ whych thynge doth by theyr owne wordes well appere <2Iohannis.xxj, ad>2 <2Thessalonicenses, ad Corynthios. xj.>2 And yf these playne textes seme not yet suffycyent for our parte/ let hym and all his felowes brynge forth some halfe texte halfe so suffycyent for theyr parte, prouynge that all is wryten and take all to gether. But yet goth he farther and wolde seme of hys curtesye to helpe me somwhat forth, & say more then I could for myne owne parte/ and yet auoyde yt to. For thus he sayth. Tyndale. I meruayle that he hadde not brought as many of his brethern do, Mathew in the lasie/ where Cryste commaunded the apostles to go and teache all nacyons, and sayed not wryte. More. In dede this wolde haue ben well brought in there/ and many of my brethern haue as he sayth brought yt in, & my selfe also some where ellys in places mo then one/ whyche I now boste of, bycause ye shall se that Tyndale hathe not yet so gayly answered yt as to make me ashamed to laye yt forth agayne. For yf he could brynge out one texte so good for hym, as that is for vs/ that is to saye, that lyke as my brethern fynde out that texte by Whyche Cryste byddeth all his apostles go preache and teache hys gospell: so yf Tyndale or any of hys brethern coulde fynde out any texte, in whyche Cryste hadde boden any of them go wryte hys gospell/ lorde god how solemnely Tyndale wolde set yt out to the shewe? And where as he now maketh lytle a do of Crystes word, byddyng them go preache: he wold make myth a do of his word, byddynge them go wryte. But nowe ye shall se what answere he maketh, & what he bringeth for the shote ancre of all his shyfte/ to proue ys they wrote euery necessary poynte. Tyndale. I answere that this precepte, loue thy neyghbour as thy selfe, and god aboue all thynge/ went wyth the apostles and compelled them to seke goddes honour in vs, and to seke all meanes to continue the fayth vnto the worldes ende. Now the apostle, knew byfore that heresyes sholde come/ and therfore wrote that yt myght be a remedy agaynste heresyes as yt well appereth Iohan .xxi. where [Oi] he sayth these are wryten that ye byleue, and thorow bylyefe haue lyfe. And in the second of his first pistle lie saith: these I write bycause of them that deceyue you. And peter and paule there to, warne vs in many places. Wherfore it is manifeste that the same loue compelled them to leue nothyng vnwriten, that shold be necessarely requyred/ and that yf yt were lefte out sholde hurte the soule. More. Lo now haue ye herde his vttermost, wherby he preueth vs that they wrote all to gether that is of necessite to be knowen. Whych he proueth not as ye se by any scrypture proper for the poynte/ as that any of them hadde any specyall commaundement to write: but that theyr cheryte droue them to yt. Whyche he proueth by a deduccyon vppon this commaundement, loue god aboue all thynge, and thy neyghbour as thy selfe. For theruppon as he deduced afore that women may synge masse, and muste in tyme of nede: so he deduceth now that the apostles were by the same cheryte dreuen by theyr wrytynge, to prouyde agaynste heresyes whyche they saw sholde come/ and that coulde they not suffycyently do, but yfthey prouyded a lyke agaynste all heresyes, ergo they wrote euery necessary trouth. This argument is god wote full pore, syke, and sore/ & myght syt at saynte Sauyours a beggynge wyth a dyshe and a clapper, for any thynge that yt can helpe yt selfe/ yt is so blynde and lame & lakketh so many lymmes/ & yet hath it one the mo for me that Tyndale forgate to sette in. But yet lakketh he bothe hys legges for all that, and his yien, and his handes, and his brayne to. For he muste sette in, that they whych wrote, knew well euery heresye, that euer shold spryng after theyr days, and this muste he proue by scrypture. He muste also sette in, that no mo of the apostles knewe that poynte but onely those that wrote: or ellys that the tother coulde not wryte nor god coulde not teache them/ or fynally that eache of them redde others wrytynge, and so saw that all was writen felowes/ & then caried all theyr felowes writynge wyth them into ethyer countres where them selfe preched, and lefte yt there. And this muste he proue me by scrypture / for cllys he saueth not vpperygllt the cheryte of saynte Andrew nor saynte Bartlemew, that wrote nothynge at all/ nor of saynt Peter in wrytyng lesse then saynt Poule/ nor of saynt Iohan for leuynge out the consecracion at Crystes maundye. He must also put in that they saw that wythout wrytyng [Oiv] god coude not kepe the poyntes of fayth amonge ys people/ for ellys the cheryte strayned them not of necessyte so sore to put all togyther in wrytynge. He muste also put in, that all theyr wrytynge is kepte & reserued saufe, and euer shall tyll the daye of dome/ for ellys lie seeth what foloweth. And then knoweth he well that besyde corrupcyon of bokes, myche therof is loste/ but yf he wyll saye that in that scrypture was nothynge necessary, but that it is in thys yt remayneth. And then must he proue me that by scrypture ere I beleue hym. And ouer thys must he put in, that they haue wryten all thynge as clere as they myghte haue done to answere all heretykes wythall/ for ys thynge longed to cheryte to, yf of cheryte theyr purpose was to wryte agaynste all heresyes. And yet whyche I had almost forgoten, he muste put in to, thys argument also, that they haue gyuen vs warnynge that they haue wryten all togyther that eyther then neded, or at any tyme after shold nede to be byleued or done, vppon payne of dedely synne. For thys is one of the very chyefe poyntes of all/ & therfore thys muste he proue by scrypture. For ellys they lefte vs in daunger to byleue some other thynges mo then they wryte/ namely synnys ys some wrote not so mych as theyr felowes, sum confesse that they taught by mouth more then they wrote/ and some wrote nothynge at all/ and of that the other wrote, good parte loste/ and of that wrytynge that remayn- eth, some corrupted by writers, some by prenters, and mych so hard that no man vnderstandeth. And fynally muste he put in to, thys argument also, that after theyr dayes Cryste wolde neuer shewe nor reuele any thynge to hys chyrche more/ nor byd any of them any other thynge byleue or do then was put in wrytynge all redy by hys apostles/ or ellys that though he wolde byd them any forther thynge at any tyme after eyther byleue or do: yet wolde he neuer be angry wyth them though they wold neyther byleue that he told them, nor do that he bode them/ but tell hym well and playnely to hys teth, that yf he wolde be byleued or obayd, he shold haue made his apostles wryte it. Thys poynt specyally muste Tyndale amonge other proue me by playne and euydent scrypture. For ellys were it ye wote wefl a great parell for any man to saye nay to goddys specyall byddynge/ though that specyall byddyng were not specyfyed in scrypture/ but yf god haue playnely spoken in [Oi] scrypture that he wyll neuer whyle he lyueth, eyther tell or bydde any other thynge then he hath all redy reueled or commaunded in scrypture. Now se you good readers how syke, how sore, and how feble his argument is/ by whyche he wolde proue vs that ys cheryte of the apostles droue them to put all necessary thynges in wrytynge. But yet hadde there almoste one reason of hys passed me vnware/ whiche yf I hadde lefte vntowched, Tyndale wolde haue sayed I hadde dissymyled, and lefte vnanswered his chyefe reason of all. For where as his feble argument before touched, was but the cause that droue the apostles to leue nothynge vnwryten: he hath yet one, that sheweth the cause why and wherfore god wolde hym selfe haue euery necessary thynge wryten, and that ye wote well muste- nedys be stronge/ and therfore what strength is in it ye shall here. Thus he sayth. Tyndale. Now syr god hath made his laste and euerlastynge testament, and no more byhynde then the apperynge of Cryst agayne. And bycause he wyll not styrre vp euery daye a new prophete with a new myracle, to conferme new doctrine, or to call agayne the olde that was forgoten: theifore were all thynges,ecessary to saluacyon comprehended in scrypture euer to endure. More. If Tyndals bare worde be worthy to be taken for so greate authoryte, that what so euer he say men must byleue it, onely by- cause Tyndale sayth it: then is this argument very sure and stronge/ but then it is superfluouse & a great dele to longe. For then it sholde suffyse hym to saye, the apostles haue lefte all thynge in wrytynge, and let all hys reasons alone. But surely yf Tyndale be no better then other men/ so that as he wyll byleue no man without playne scryp- ture, no man wythout playne scrypture is bounden to byleue hym: then is thys argument more feble yet then the tother. For he shall neuer make it stronge, neyther by playne scrypture, nor good deduccyon, nor necessary consequense, nor any probable reason. For fyrste how proueth he that all thynge is open? How proueth he that he vnderstandeth euery place in scrypture? euery place in Genesys, euery place in the prophetes, euery place in ys Psalter, euery place in saint Iohans gospell, euery place in saint Poules pystles, euery place in ys Apocalipsys. Be all these thynges open to Tyndale? Is any man so mad [0iv] to byleue hym therin vppon hys worde, bycause he boldely sayth in many places of his vngraciouse bokes, that ys scrypture is easy to vnderstande / whych thyng he sayeth of an vngracyouse mynde, to make euery symple person bolde to take hym self for an interpreter. But I dare be as bolde to say that the scripture, all be yt many places be playn, & in ys hardeste place good folke may take frute yf they play not as Tyndale doth, be bold vppon yt lyke blynde bayarde, & thynke it playn & open/ yet is it not so open but yt there is many a place in euery parte therof, so darke, & of such diffyculty / ys there neyther is nor I wene neuer was synnys ys apostles dayes, nor peraduenture euery man amonge them neyther, ys durst haue ben so bold to say ys all thyng was so open to him/ but ys there may lye yet therein for all ys vnderstandyng ys men haue therof, many a great mystery hyd that neuer shalbe clerely vnderstanden/ tyll such tyme as god vppon the thynge done and shewed, shall by his spyryte promysed, sente, and assystent vnto his chyrche in the tymes con- uenyente, and by god appoynted therunto, reuele yt/ whyche thynges shall then be necessary poyntes, to be byleued, and nowe neyther necessarye.to byleue, nor possyble to be thought vppon. But when yt shall please god any suche thynges to do, shew, & reuele: he shall then sende no Luthers, nor no Tyndales, nor none Huskyns, nor no frere out of a nonnes bedde to preache yt / but he shall send suche holy messengers as he hath ben euer wonte about such besynesse to send, that shall not come with a false fayth, and euyll workes, and be accursed out of Crystes chyrche/ but wyth the treye catholyque fayth, and holy lyuynge, and reuerent handelynge of holy scrypture, and some of them wyth many great miracles con- foundynge the false wonders of Antecriste / as the miracles that Moyses wrought confounded the mer- uayles that were wrought by the wyche- crafte of the Egypciane iuglers. And he shall not sende suche fonde felowes as wolde be so shamelesse wythout any miracle shewed, to bydde all the world byleue them vppon theyr bare word, in the vnderstandyng of holy scrypture, agaynste all holy sayntes and connynge doctours of.xv. hundred yere passed/ and bere men in hande that all is open and playne, and proue yt by nothynge ellys but by yt there is no place of holy scripture so hard, but that them selfe can expowne yt in suche wyse that yt shall serue [Oi] them shamefull for iestynge and raylynge agaynst god and all good men, agaynste all good workes, agaynst all relygyon, fastynge, prayour, deuocyon, sayntes, ceremonyes, and sacramentes/ & to sette forth vyce in boldenesse of fayth, and to prayse lechery betwene freres and nonnes, and call yt matrymony, and thus make mokkes of holy scrypture solemnely, with such open shamelesse abomynable blas- phemy, that yf the zele of god were amonge men that shold be, suc raylyng rybaldes that so mokke wyth holy scrypture, shold at euer suche exposycyon haue an hote iren thruste thorow theyr blasphem. ouse tonges. Such false prophetes shall god as I saye sende none of his erand. But Tyndale can not proue yt trew that he sayth, that all thinge y yet so fully fynyshed, but that ys tyme may come when god maye ye shew thynges whereof we yet nothyng thynke, and yet peraduentur wryten of in the scrypture/ and may yf he lyste do and shew also mo thynges yet, wherof nothynge is wryten for any worde that is wryten to the contrarye. And that bysyde Crystes owne apperynge at the dome, there yet resteth some rekenynges to come/ well & playnely appereth by scrypture both concernynge Tyndales great Mayster Antecryste, though Tyndale & Luther lyste lewdely to rayle wyth those holy places of scrypture/ and also concernynge Ennoke and Hely. And therfore where Tyndale saythe, Tyndale. Bycause allis done saue the dome, and bycause god wyll not stere vppe euery daye a new prophete with a new myracle, to conferme new doctrine or to call agayne theolde that was forgoten: therfore were all thynges necessary to saluacyon comprehendedin scripture euer to endure. More. Lo now haue we herd hym say yt/ & now lakke we no more but euen to here hym proue yt. For when Tyndale proueth not that the thynge is so done in dede/ but layeth vs onely the causes for whyche he sayth god caused yt to be done: in this doth he nothynge ellis but tell vs what god shold haue done yf he hadde taken hym to counsayle. Tyndale proueth not that god hath shewed hym that all is done saue onely the day of dome/ whyche he muste proue or ellys we wyll denye yt hym. Nor he proueth not that god hath shewed hym ys he wolde not sterre vp yf nede were euery daye a new prophete, and that wyth new miracles to, [Oiv] rather then bynde hym selfe that he sholde neuer teche any thynge more, or haue hys olde doctryne forgoten eyther. Whyche thynge he must proue, or els wyll we de it hym/ syth god hath taken more labour and greater payne for his chyrche then that. For he hath shedde hys blood for it, and myghte do all that wyth the lest worde of hys mouth. And we saye also that god hath dayly stered vp & dayly doth sterre vp new prophetes in sundry partes of hys catholyke chyrche, holy doctours, and preachers, and faythfull men, and good lyuers/ for whom bothe quycke and dede he dot shewe myracles in hys catholyke chyrche, and therby approueth the fayth and workes that theynn lyued and dyed in, as he sterred vp prophetes amonge the iewes in sundry ages for all the myracles done by Moyses/ and doeth not so for no chyrche of heretykes. Nor he proueth not that ys poyntes of fayth muste nedys haue fallen awaye, but yf they had ben wryten. Whych thyng he must proue vs / for ellys wyll we boldely denye it, and go nere to proue the contrary. For we se that the chyrche hath kepte dyuerse thynges wythout scrypture thys.xiii.C. yere, and as it is thought.ii.C. yere afore/ and is yet as lykely to kepe it as many mo, and twyse as many mo yf the worlde laste so longe. Now haue they be kepte so longe eyther by man, or by ys deuyll, or ellys by god. And yf Tindale say that eyther man or deuyll haue kepte them all thys whyle: we maye be bold to tell hym that then was god as able to kepe them, as was any of those both/ and neded no more scrypture therto, then neded eyther man or deuyll. Tyndale proueth vs not neyther that when the thynges were wryten they were therby sure as he sayth to endure for euer. For he proueth not by scrypture that ys scrypture shall endure for euer. For though the scrypture saye that ys worde of god shall laste for euer, and that there shall not therof the leste letter be loste: yet is that ment of the sonne of god and of the mater, & of the worde vnwryten, and not of the wordeS wryten in scrypture/ excepte none of saynt Poules epystles be loste, or that suche as be lost was no scrypture, or ys in those pystles were no letters. Nor Tyndale hath not proued that the scrypture is so clerely wryten, but that god nedeth as well to sterre vp prophetes with miracles for the declaracion of ys trouth therof, [Pi] whyle the false exposytours be so contencyouse/ as he shold haue neded for the teachynge, kepynge, and confyrmacyon of the poyntes of fayth vn- wryten. And as I byfore sayde euen so he doth. And thus ye se that these wordes are to Tyndale very lytle worth. But then sayeth he farther. Tyndale. By the scrypture ihe counsayles generall, and not by open myracle, haue concluded suche thynges as were in them determined / as storyes make mencyon. More. Lette Tyndale brynge forth one story that sayeth as he sayth, and then lette hym tell vs the tale agayne. I make my selfe very sure, that he shall fynde no story that shall say that the generall counsayles in theyr conclusyons, regarded no miracles but onely scrypture. For he shall fynd in the storyes that the good holy fathers that were in dyuerse of the generall counsayles (of whom there be many that all Cristen people honour and worshyppe for sayntes) had many thynges to moue them to determyne and conclude agaynste heretykes/ of whych thynges the scrypture was one and was not all. For when the Arrianes and ys catholykes were in debate vppon the vnderstandynge of the scryptures (as the catholyques be wyth these heretykes now) the catholyques dyd not onely se then yt the heretykes wrested & mysse constrewed the scrypture (as we se that these heretyques myche more mysse wreste yt now) but they saw also that ys comen fayth of the catholyke chyrche, was receyued & by- leued byfore that heresye bygon/ and beynge very sure by the promise of god, that yf that fayth hadde ben false the spirite that god sent vnto his chyrch, wold neuer haue sufferd the catholike chyrch, the corps of Crysten people, the mystycall bodye of Cryste, to fall into that bylyefe/ they were thereby wyth that fayth wryten by the fynger of god in theyr crysten hartes, very sure that the Arrianes were here- tyques / and so sholde they haue ben though neuer word of scrypture hadde ben wryten/ and sholde haue concluded agaynste the Arrianes in lyke wyse as they dyd. They saw also that god dyd miracles in hys catholyque chyrche, and sufferd none amonge the Arrianes/ sauynge in the takynge of vengeaunce vppon them to theyr payne and shame, as when Arrius guttes fell out of his bely into the draught/ (as we dayly se that he doth, and euer shafl se [Piv] that he shall do in hys catholyke chyrche/ and suffreth none to be done amonge all the scoulkes of heretyk suffer tyll the dome nere approche, but onely in detectynge theyr wykkednesse and bryngynge them to the fyre/ as our lady by miracle brought Berquyne of late at Parise) thys thynge vndowtedly not a lytle confermed the fayth, & made the chyrche boldely conclude agaynste the Arrians. And this thynge appereth well in storyes very old and autentyque. And Tynale shall I am sure neuer brynge vs forth his stories, saynge that the generall counsayles hadde no regarde to miracles. And yf he wyll saye that the storyes tell that there was none open miracles done at the generall counsayles. Yet I wene shall he fynde none such storyes neyther. And yf he wyll say ys the storyes do not tell of any open miracles done at the generall coonsayles/ then shall he tell vs a tale to lytle purpose. For surely so many as were shewed bysyde, yt was a thynge that neded not. But then goeth he farther and sayth. Tyndale. And by the same scryptures we knowe whyche counsayles were trewe and whyche false. More. Thys is a pratye poynt lo. For now may ye se for what cause he sayth that the generall counsayles made theyr determynacyons by scrypture and not by miracle/ bycause he wolde haue yt seme that there were nothynge of goddes spiryte wurkynge wyth the generall counsales, but onely the wytte and affeccyons of men/ so that he wolde as appereth playnely by this worde, haue them serue all of nought, but euery heretyque lefte at lybertye to saye nay to them all. For he sayth that by the scrypture we knowe whyche of those counsayles were trewe and whyche false. But where he sayth we knowe: I wolde wytte of hym whyche we he meaneth/ whyche of his hundred new sectes he calleth hys we. For they agre so euyll to gether, that ys thyng whych the tone sayth that by the scripture he knoweth for trew, the tother sayth that by the scrypture he knoweth for false. Tyndales mayster Marten Luther and all the sectes in Almaync, call for a generall counsayle. Now wolde I wyt to what purpose, yf all that were concluded therin sholde be neuer the surer/ but that euery frowarde fole maye as well after as he myghte before, say that he knoweth by scrypture [Pi] that the counsayle was false, and all that was determyned therin was nought. Thus myghte an Arryan and erraunt heretyke saye now, that he knoweth by scrypture yt all was false that was determyned in the counsayles agaynste the Arrians of olde. Saynt Poule wyll that when one speketh / the remenaunte that is the hole congregacyon shall iudge. As yet at thys daye yf a preacher preache heresye/ god hath by the fayth wryten in crysten mennys hartes, made ys people able to knowe hym for nought/ excepte it be a false preacher wyth a false company, wyllyngly drawen togyther, and fallen from the chyrche/ whyche false preacher and his companye is euer able to be iudged by the hole chyrch remaynyng styll in the formare fayth. And now wyll father Tyndale ys euery obstynate heretyke, euery pratelynge fole, euery smaterer in scrypture/ shall be iudge ouer all the generall counsayles, and ouer all the hole corps of crystendome, to tell them all that hym selfe vnderstandeth the scrypture better then they all. Is not this wene ye a godly wyse way? Then goeth he ferther yet and sayth. Tyndale. And by the same scrypture shall we yf any new questyon aryse, determyne it also. For Abraam answered the ryche man: They haue Moyses and the prophetes, let them here them/ and saydnot, they haue the scrybes and the pharysees, whom they sholde here preachynge he sete of theyr owne doctryne without scrypture. More. I had lytell went that Tyndale wolde haue brought in this poynt of Abraam, Lazarus, and the ryche gloton in hell. For Tyndale seeth well inough that though that same Lazer was not raysed by Abraam, and sent vnto those folke at hys requeste: yet was another Lazare raysed afterward by Cryste, & sent amonge men agayne at good folkes request/ where though he came for the glory of god and for the shew of ys godhed of his onely son/ yet is it no dowte but though hys wordes be not wryten, he dyd in that poynte also mych good vnto menne of the meane sorte/ though some suche as were obdurate in malice, as were some pharisees, or drounde in the credens of theyr false secte as were some saduceyes, byleued no more hym then Moyses / but in that poynt mysconstred the tone and mokked or hated the tother. And Tindale seeth also fufl well, yt those wordes of Abraam nothynge touche the new testament, nor nothynge that this [Piv] question hangeth vppon. For those wordes were spoken by Abraam peraduenture longe byfore Crystes commynge, & at the leste byfore any worde of the new testament wryten. And therfore though they myghte be drawen to touche the tradycyons whyche the false pharasees gaue vnto the Iewes: yet could they not be drawen to touch the tradycyons whych the trew spiryte of god by Cristes pro- myse, hath geuen vnto hys chyrche. And that all those be wryten/ Tyndall seeth full well those wordes of Abraam proue nothing at all. And therfore yt is to me more then meruayle, that he ys not ashamed to lay those wordes for this purpose. For where he sayeth that euery new questyon that maye aryse, we shall determyne by scripture: ye se your selfe very well he speketh of an vngracyouse purpose / wyllynge to bryng in his poysened heresyes vnder that pretexte, syth that he knoweth that the scrypture proueth not the perpetuall virgynyte of our lady, whyche he wolde haue no man bounden to byleue/ and also concernynge the sacra- ment hym self sayth is but brede, and that there ought none honour to be done thereto/ and falsely defendeth the tone by the wordes of euyll constrewed scrypture, and the tother bycause yt ys not com- maunded in scrypture. And yet se ye farther that he speketh as though he herde not his owne voyce. For he sayd afore that by the scrypture we iudge the counsayles. And then how can any thynge be determyned by scryp- ture/ when of ys ryght vnderstandynge therof there can neuer any determinate ende be made, though all Cristendome sholde come to gether and agre theron, but that euery folyshe heretyque may saye that all they vnderstode yt wronge, and hym selfe onely ryght. Thys is a substancyall reason of Tyndale be ye sure. But bycause he wyll that wyth scripture the generall counsayles must be iudged: what scrypture alledged the apostles for theyr determynacyon in the.xv. chapyter of the actes, where they in theyr counsayle sayde, & by theyr pystle wrote, ys holy goost & we haue sene yt good, to put no more burden vppon you, then these necessary thynges/ that is to wyt that you abstayne from thynges offred to idolys, and from blood, & all thynge that ys strangled, and from fornycacyon/ from whyche thynges yf ye kepe your selfes ye shall do well. What scripture layed they for thys generall counsayle of theyrs? For though there were scripture in the old testament, [Pi] that for- bode these thynges and other to: yet was there no scrypture wherby they concluded those thynges to be kepte and obserued partely for euer, partely for a tyme, rather then the other commaundementes of the law. Was not the authoryte thereof by the reason of Crystes worde: He that hereth you hereth me / whych worde hadde as great strength byfore yt was wryten, as euer yt hadde synnes. Now this same authoryte hath Crystes chyrche assembled in the generall counsayles/ and the same spiryte enspyreth them, and the same wordes of Crist byndeth his flokke to obay them that bounde them to obay his apostles. Tyndale. Nay sayth Tyndale, not so. When M. More alledged, he that hereth you hereth me/ and also this, If any man here not the chyrch take hym for an hethen / concludynge that we muste byleue what so euer is shauen in all that he affyrmeth wythout scrypture or myracle: I wolde fayne witte in what fygure that syllogysme is made. More. I wold fayne wit of Tyndale in what place of my boke he fyndeth that I make that conclusyon/ wyth whyche yt pleaseth hym to bylye me to swete his owne answere wyth. For I neuer concluded nor sayde that we were bounden to byleue all that is shauen in all that euer he sayth. But I then sayd and yet I say, that these wordes of our sauiour Criste, who so hereth you hereth me/ were no more proper com- maundement to bynde any man to byleue the apostles, then to byleue the whole catholyque chyrche and generall counsayls, that represent that whole body of the catholique chirch/ and that they were not spoken to the apostles onely, no more then the holy goost was pro- mysed by Cryste to be sent vnto the apostles onely. And Criste no more promysed to send the holy goost vnto thapostles onely / then he promysed to be with the apostles onely, all the days vnto the ende of the worlde. Now these wordes of Criste, if any man here not ys chirch, take hyum for an hethen: euery man well woteth that thys is manifestly spoken not of the apostles onely for theyr tyme, but of the chirch as longe a shall laste. For so long shall the chirch endure, do these heretikes what so euer they can to the contrary. And as yt is trew of euery partyculare chirche and the gouernours therof, as long as yt swarueth not from ys whole body of ys chirch vnyuersall: so is it mych more properly ment of the whole vnyuersale chirche yt self/ [Piv] and of the counsayles generall representynge that hole chyrche, wherof euery pertyculer chyrche is but a member. And therfore where as Tyndale sayth he wolde fayne fynde in what fygure the syllogysme is made, whyche he sayth I conclude: he muste go lyghte a candle and seke vp that hym selfe/ for itis hys owne syllogysme and not myne, for hym selfe maketh that conclusyon and not I. But my syllogisme is thys. Euery crysten man refusyng to here, byleue, and obaye, the chyrche/ is to be taken as an heretyke and an hethen. But so it is that Tyndale beynge a crysten man, and takynge vppon hym in the vnderstandyng of scrypture, to controll and condempne the chyrche/ refuseth to here, byleue, and obaye the chyrche: ergo Tyndale is to be taken as an hethen man and an heretyke. Thys syllogysme is myne. And thys syllogysme yf Tyndale wolde fayne wyt in what fygure it is made: he shall fynde it in ys fyrst fygure, & the thyrd mode/ sauyng ys the mynor caryeth his profe with hym, whych wold ellys in ys same fygure and the same mode haue made another syllogysme. Now knytteth he vp all thys gere wyth another syllogysme of hys owne makynge. And in what fygure he maketh that, lette hym tell that can/ for surely that can I not. These are hys wordes. Tyndale. Crystes dyscyples taughte Crystes doctryne, confermyng it with myracles/ that it myghte be knowen for goddes and not theyrs. And euyn so muste the chyrche that I wyll byleue/ shew a myracle, or brynge autentyke scrypture that is come from the apostles that confyrmed it with myracles. More. Now maye I be bolde to make the conclusyon of hys argument for hym. For syth he goeth aboute in hys boke to teche not hym selfe but other that shall reade hys boke: hys conclusyon can be no nother, but that no man sholde byleue any chyrche wythout myracle or autentyke scrypture. Wherof the cause is bycause he wyll not other- wyse byleue any. Let hym put that in fygure when he can, and set there to ys cause that moueth hym therto, to byleue no chyrch wyth- out scrypture or myracle / and yet wyll all togyther wyth .xvi. For when he sayth that Crystes dyscyples taught his doctryne, confyrmynge it wyth miracles/ and so must ys chirch that he wyll byleue, or ellys brynge autentyque scrypture: [Pi] I saye that he muste proue the thynge ys he so often sayth, & neuer proueth, nor neuer can/ that is that the apostles proued euery poynt by a specyall miracle. Whych poynt I haue reproued byfore/ and yet I aske hym now agayne, what miracle wrought the apostles for euery poynte of theyre doctryne in theyr letter, that I spake of mencyoned in the.xv. chapiter of the Actes/ or where is yt wryten ys they wrought any one for them all? I saye also that the catholyque chirch bryngeth miracles for theyr doctryne as ys apostles dyd for theyres/ in that that god ceaceth no yere to worke miracles in his catholyque chyrche many and wonderfull, bothe for hys holy men quykke and dede, and for the doctryne ys these heretykes impugne/ as images, relyques, & pyl- grymages, and the blessed sacrament of the auter. And these so many & in so many places/ that these heretykes them self can not denye yt, but are shamefully dreuen to saye lyke the Iewes, ys yt is the deuyll that doth them. I say therfore farther yt Tyndale doth but mokke & trifle/ when he sayeth he wyll byleue no chirch without miracle or autentike scripture. For he refuseth to byleue ys chirch though it bryng both twayne. For yf we bryng autentyque scripture: he wyll not let to say yt it is not autentique/ as he playeth by the Machabees, & his master by saynt Iamys pystle. If he denye not, then wyll he saye that the chirche vnderstandeth yt wronge/ so that the chyrch hath nede to brynge myracles, to proue hym that the scrypture is the scrypture/ and that they afl to gether vnderstande yt better then he alone, as well as that the chyrch is the chirch. And yet when the catholyque chirch bryngeth miracles wrought by god in yt, & for yt, and ys plentuously/ & no chirche any one but yt: then sayth Tyndale that they be all wrought by the deuyll. And thus ye may se when he hath all sayde/ he neyther regardeth miracle nor scripture neyther, but mokketh both twayne. Now haue ye herd all that I fynde Tyndale answere, agaynst suche thynges as I layed byfore in my dialoge/ to proue that all thynge necessary is not wryten in scrypture. And then what profe he can make for hys owne parte, to proue that all is wryten, ye haue herd all redy/ wherin how lytle pyth there is, euery chylde maye perceyue. And then may ye surely reken, that syth thys is hys laste boke, and the place in whyche he maketh a specyall tytle for the mater: he bryngeth in all the beste that he can fynde. And [Piv] yf he fynde any thynge ellyswhere wryten by his mayster, or hym selfe, or any other of hys felowes for that purpose, whych he leueth out here: ye may be faste and sure he seeth well, he sholde haue but shame to brynge yt in. As the wordes of Criste: <2Scrutamini scripturas, quoniam>2 <2ipsae testimonium perhibent de me.>2 Loke you in ys scriptures, for they bere witnesse of me. Which thyng no man denyeth/ but we deny them that nothyng witnesseth Cryste ellys but the scrypture alone. For our sauyour hym selfe whyche sayde those wordes, sayde that saynte Iohan also bare wytnesse of hym bysyde the scrypture/ & that hys father bare wytnesse of hym bysyde the scrypture/ and that hys owne workes bare wytnesse of hym bysyde ys scrypture/ and that the holy goost at hys commynge bare wytnesse of hym bysyde the scryp- ture / and hys apostles (as hym selfe sayd they shold) bare wytnesse of hym besyde the scrypture. And now ys all yt euer they all witnessed of Cristes wyll to be necessaryly byleued or done, is synnys those wordes of Cryste spoken by his apostles wryten in the scripture: this seeth Tyndale well that he must proue vs by scripture/ and not bynde vs onely to ys scripture by those wordes of Criste: Serche you ys scrypture/ whyche were spoken of Cryste byfore all the new scrypture, and sholde serue to strayne vs to proue all thynge by the olde scrypture, & to byleue nothyng farther then we fynde writen in the olde testament. And therfore Tyndale hadde yet some witte when he lefte those wordes oute. And lyke wyse he saw that yt hadde not ben to purpose to brynge in those wordes, whyche some of that secte bryng forth full solemnely, ys ys to wyt the wordes of saynt Iohan in the Apocalyps, where he sayth: If any man any thynge sette to these thynges/ god shall putte vppon hym the plages wryten in thys boke. And also yf any man any thyng mynyshe of the wordes of ys bokes of thys prophecye/ god shall take from hym hys parte of the boke of lyfe, and of the holy cytye, and of those thynges that are wryten in this boke. By whyche wordes he meaneth not that no man shall neuer after be so hardy to wryte any prophecye, yf euer it please god any other thynge to reuele. And mych lesse he meaneth to put god to sylence, that he shall neuer any other thynge reuele yf hym lyste/ nor sayth not that god hath shewed hym that he neuer wyll. But h charge that men vse dylygence and treuth in the wrytynge out of hys [Qi] owne. And mych lyke charge all be it not of lyke authoryte/ haue other wryters gyuen for theyr owne bookes, as it is to se in the ende of ys cronycle of Eusebius translated I trowe by saynt Hierom/ and in saynte Ireneus workes the same charge gyuen in lykewyse, wyth mych lyke adiuracyon ioyned there vnto. And therfore as solempnely as some of hys bretherne brynge forth these wordes of saynt Iohan: Tyndale saw yet that they wolde not serue, and therfore he lefte them out. Now laye some folke for thys purpose, the wordes of Moyses in the.xii. of the deuteronomy, where he sayth, The thynge that I commaunde the, that thynge onely shalte thou do to god/ and thou shalte neyther any thyng adde nor mynysshe. Whych wordes be yet in thys mater lesse to ys purpose, then the wordes byfore rehersed of the apocalyps. For who so loke in ys place, and rede ouer the chapy- ter: he shall se that Moyses sayed those wordes onely for fere ys he had/ leste syth he hadde on goddes behalfe commaunded them some certeyne sacryfyces vnto god, the people prone to idolatrye, wolde adde of theyr owne myndes, eyther some sacryfyce vnto idols / or vnto god some kynde of suche abomynable sacryfyce, as the gentyls offered vnto theyr idoles. And for fere therof/ he sayed vnto them: shalte do vnto god that thynge onely that I commaunde the. And thou shalte neyther any thynge adde nor mynysshe. But he tolde the cause before & sayed: when the lorde thy god shall haue destroyed belbre thy face ys gentyls, vppon whom thou shalte entre to take them in thy possessyon/ and whan thou shalte haue them in thy possessyon, and shalte dwelle in the lande that belonged vnto them: beware that thou folow not them, after that they shalbe by thy comyng in, ouerturned/ beware I saye that thou seke not after theyr ceremonyes and saye: As these peple were wont to wourshyp theyr goddes/ euyn so wyll I wourshyppe to. Thou shalte not do lykewyse to ys lorde thy god. For they haue done vnto theyr goddes all the abomynacyons that our lorde hateth/ offerynge theyr owne sonnes and doughters, and burnynge them vp in fyre. And then setteth Moyses there vnto ys wordes before rehersed, wyllynge them that they shall neyther leue vndone any of those ceremonyes and sacry- fyces that he had commaunded, nor adde any newe kynde of theyr owne mynde/ leste they myghte happe to fall to those kyndes of sacrifyce of the pay[Qiv]nyms, that were abomynable afore the face ofgod. Now what serue these wordes of Moyses to our present purpose? For fyrste yf Moyses had not ment as I say, & as the circumstaunce of the texte sheweth/ but hadde vtterly ment to commaunde them that they sholde nothynge adde at all in no maner thynge vnto those thynges that he commaunded them hym selfe as the wordes sowne: then hadde he forboden theym to byleue or obaye any prophete that euer sholde come after hym/ excepte onely the prophete of whom he prophecyed and bad they sholde here hym. And yet myght they thynke that prophete restrayned by those wordes, in suche thynges as sholde perteyne to the seruyce of god. Also yf that Moyses had not ment as I say, but precysely forboden them to adde any thyng at all vnto his instytucyons: they myghte neuer haue added any new feste of holy dayes vnto those that god hadde by Moyses appoynted them all redy. And then how myghte ys feste called <2festum encoeniorum>2 haue ben instytuted afterwarde, whych was longe after Moyses dayes instytuted, and very solemnly obserued / and god therwith so well content, that our sauyour honoured it with his owne blessed presence hym selfe. But now suppose that Moyses hadde hym selfe ment as strayghtly as theyr vnreasonable construccyon wold strayn hys wordes to: what wolde all that serue vnto theyr purpose in our mater. May crysten men do nothynge but that that Moyses bad/ bycause the iewes myghte do nothynge but that that Moyses bad? where were then bycome the sacrament of baptysme, and the sacrament of the auter? ye say they, but thys proueth that the chyrche sholde adde nothyng of theyr owne mynde vnto goddes worde/ for suche a note in the byble some haue set solemnely in the margent vppon those wordes. But I dare be bolde to tell theym agayne, that they may better scrape that note out agayne/ then vse it vnto this purpose. For fyrst those wordes proueth no such thynge at all, but yf Moyses had ment as straytely as they strayne hym/ in whyche I haue proued that they take hym wronge. Secundely I say that yf Moyses hadde ment as precysely as they mysse take liym: yet hadde yt touched but the iewes/ and vs crysten men nothynge at all. Thyrdely I say that in the thynges whyche Tyndale re[Qi]proueth the sacramentes of the chirche/ the chirche hath added nothynge vnto the worde of god. For we say that they be the worde of god well wryten in holy scrypture, as hath ben playnely proued them/ and that hym self well knoweth, but that he lysteth to play hys parte and saye nay styll, be ys profe neuer so clere. Fourthly we say that any such thynge as ys chirche vseth or by- leueth as necessary, though yt be not wryten: yet adde they therby nothynge vnto goddes wordes. For we say that yt is goddes worde vnwriten, and of as great authoryte as ys his worde wryten / as the thynges that partely were delyuered to the apostles, and partely taught vnto the chyrche by that holy spiryte of god, that was by Crystes promyse sente vnto the chyrche to be wyth yt for euer, to teache yt and lede yt into euery trouth. Fynally for conclusyon to proue you the foly of that allegacyon: ye know well all our questyon is no more, but whyther the apostles lefte cuery necessary thynge in wrytynge, as Tyndale affermeth. And now consyder you whither this be a good profe or not/ though Moyses wordes were taken as strayght as these men mysse take them. Were not this wene ye well argued? Moyses forbode the iewys to adde or mynyshe to or from any thynge that he commaunded: ergo the apostles haue lefte no necessary thynge vnwryten. Bysyde that this argument is very folysh in yt selfe: yet haue I byfore at large opened you the lakkes therof, where I answered Tyndale concernynge hys hygh reason of the apostles cheryte, com- pellynge them to leue nothynge vnwryten. And bysydes that one playne dyfference ys there, that Moyses was commaunded to wryte, and the apostles were not commaunded at all/ though god alowed, assysted, and aspired them hys grace therin, as he dothe many good men in many good wurkes besyde any commaundement. And Moyses also commaunded to wryte as he was/ was not com- maunded yet to putte all to gether in wrytynge, that the people sholde be bounden to do or byleue, by any texte yt Tyndale hath shewed vs yet, or euer shall shew I suppose. How be it as for this allegacyon, though some other haue thought yt gay: Tyndale yet perceyued it for such as he saw well wolde not serue hym/ and therfore he lefte it out. Yet are there some, & amonge them frere Barons/ ys layeth for ys purpose the wordes of our sauyour wryten in the.xxiii. [Qiv] of Mathew, where he sayth, Vppon the cheyre of Moyses, are now set the scrybes and the pharyseys. All thynges that euer they say vnto you obserue them and do them/ but the thynges that they do, do not you. For they bynde vnportable burdayns and lay them vppon other mennes shoulders, and wyll not so mych as wyth a fynger of theyr owne, ones styrre them. By these wordes wolde frere Barons that there sholde nothynge be taught but onely scrypture. And ouer that he wolde by these wordes, that a man myghte breke all the lawes that the hole chyrche maketh besyde the expresse preceptes of god con- teyned in the scrypture wythout any scruple of conscyence/ so that- he do it secretely where there were no weke conscyence of feble faythed folke offended. Where as vndowted those wordes neyther proue hys purpose in the fyrst, and proue clene agaynst hys purpose in the seconde. For begynnynge wyth the seconde / those wordes playnely declare, that bycause our sauyour bothe then intended to shewe, and often before had shewed, that the scrybes & pharyseys were nought: yet lest the people myghte happe to thynke that he wolde therfore they shold be set at nought and not obayed/ he gaue them not warnynge onely but also playne commaundement, that syth they were in the authoryte and occupyed the place of Moyses that gaue the law, & were the rulers and gouernours of the people, they sholde obay them and fulfyll that they commaunded them. And leste the people sholde take hym as frere Barons doth/ and wene by- cause he spake of Moyses chayre, that therfore they sholde obaye hym in nothyng ellys but as far as they shold rede in Moyses bokes/ and vppon euery thynge that they sholde be boden, sholde saye shew me that wryten in Moyses bokes: Cryste therfore commaunded them yt they sholde obserue and fulfyll all theyr commaundementes. Not meanynge by that generaltye that they sholde obay ment that by god were forbeden, nor to set godde law sayde for mennys tradycyons as hym selfe sayed in the xv. of Mathew: but forbedynge them to refuse to fulfull ys commaundement of theyr rulers, wherofthere were no mencyon made in scrypture, where the commaundement tended to vertue, good maners, or goddes honour. Now the wordes of saynt Austayn whyche frere Barons bryngeth in, do nothynge proue the poynt that Barons wolde proue by them. For he wolde haue it seme that saynt Austayne taketh those [Qi] wordes of Crystes as hym selfe doeth. But saynt Austayne there by the allegorye of ys chayre of Moyses occupyed by ys scrybes and pharaseys: expowneth those wordes of a preacher that is not the very trew shepeherd ys in his preachyng seketh nothynge but the profyte of the shepe and the glory of Cryste/ but that is a mercennary preacher and an hyred, whyche seketh hys owne temporall aduauntage and commodyte. Of whom saynte Austayne gyueth warnynge, that yet euen suche preachers nought as they be/ yet for ys whyle that they be suffred to preache, in all that they saye well and accordynge to the law of god, we sholde here them & alowe them therin, and lerne to lyue therafter. But on the tother syde, yf they wolde when they haue begon wyth good thynges for a countenaunce to gete them in credence/ then leue of suche thynges and preache of that they seke for, that is to wyt fantasyes of theyr owne inuencyon, and for them selfe and theyr owne commodyte: therin be they not to be herd or byleued. And thys is the mynde of saynte Austayne, as euery man that wyll consyder hys wordes in the place where they be wryten, the.xlvi. tretyce vppon saynt Iohan, shall very playnely perceyue. And therby shall he that there redeth them as playnely perceyue, that those wordes of saynt Austayne brought forth by Barns, do nothynge proue Barns purpose/ that is to wyt, yt those wordes of Cryste do dyscharge euery mannes conscyence of obedyence vnto any preceptes, lawes, or tradycyons of men, other then be wryten in scrypture. For the thynge that saynt Austayne there sayth: dyuers holy men entreatyng the same wordes in the lyke allegorye of doctryne and preachynge, do saye and confyrme in lyke wyse/ and neuer wyse man wolde saye otherwyse. But the thynge that Barns sayth/ neuer was there yet eyther good man or wyse man that wolde agree. For those wordes of Cryste sauynge by waye of the allegorye, seme not so properly to pertayne to techynge of the scrybes and pharaseys, as to theyr commaundementes and byddynges/ as well appereth by the wordes folowynge, where he byddeth that they shold obserue and do all the thynges that they saye to them. And that he sholde meane not onely the preceptes wryten in the law, but also theyr other com- maundementes besyde, suche as were not superstycyouse or vnlaw- full to be kepte: is clerely declared by the wordes of Cryste folowynge, where he [Qiv] sayeth in thys wyse, For they bynde importable burdayns and laye them on other folkes shoulders, but them self wyll not put a fynger of theyr owne therto. As though he wolde saye, Syth they syt vppon Moyses chayre, and occupye hys place, and be your gouernours: do ye all that they commaunde you, all though the burdayns that they bynde and laye on your shoulder be so great & heuy, that they seme in a maner importable/ but do not as they do. For they wyll them selfe leue them all vndone, and not set onys a fynger to ys doyng of them. But I warne you do not you so. I know ryght well that those wordes maye be well expowned on the tother fashyon afore remembred, vnderstandyng in the allegory by the chayre of Moyses, the doctryne & law of Moyses. And then may those greuouse importable burdayns be called the burdens of the olde lawe/ wyth whyche saynt Peter and the apostles were not contente, that some other wolde lade the crysten people commynge vnto Criste/ saynge that neyther them selfe nor theyr fathers coulde bere them. Thus I know well men may expowne those wordes, and good men, holy men, and connynge men so haue done/ and other in lykewise after the maner that I now do, & both twayne haue therein done very well. For one texte maye be dyuersely in dyuerse senses expowned/ though Luther and Tyndale wyll haue now but one, tyll a nother may better make for theyr owne purpose/ for then they wyll not let to make fyftene. But though those wordes may be so expowned: yet as I sayde yt appereth well that the very proper sense is of theyr owne trady- cyons bysyde Moyses lawe/ in that Cryste sayde that the scrybes and pharasyes dyd bynde greuouse burdayns and importable and lay them on other mennys shoulders. For euery man well woteth that neyther the scrybes nor the pharysees, dyd bynde and lay on mennys shoulders the burdens of the lawe, but our lorde hym selfe. And whyche at that tyme whyle he wolde yet haue them kept, he wolde not haue dyspraysed, wyth callyng them greuous and importable/ though the apostles dyd afterwarde when tyme cam to caste them of And therfore as I haue sayde, those wordes of Crystes were properly ment of the tradycyons & commaundementes of the scrybes & pharasees them selfe bysyde the law/ whych thinges our sauiour there commaunded to be kept & obserued, where so euer they were not superstycyouse, nor contraryed [Qi] not the lawes and com- maundementes of god/ but were tendynge to his honour, or to ver- tue, or to the comen weale, for the place and offyce that the scrybes and pharysees kepte, though them selfe were nought. And theyr good tradycyons dyd neuer Cryste dysprayse/ though he somtyme dys- pensed wyth his dyscyples concernynge them and the law to. Now there is no man I thynke so madde, when he dowteth not but the seruauntes in a mannys housholde are so bounden to fulfyll and obaye theyr maysters lyefull commaundementes, that yf they wolde refuse at hys byddynge to knele downe and say certayne prayers with hym to bedwarde all the whole house to gether, tyll he shold shew them some such commaundement in scrypture / they were well worthy to go to the deuyll for theyr proude dysobedyence in the defence of theyr false euangelycall fredome: he that douteth not I saye of thys (of whyche I thynke no good man douteth) can not be so madde to thynke that neyther bysshoppe, nor pope, nor whole generall counsayle, nor all crysten people to gether, though they were all assembled vppon a playne, were able so to commaunde so myche as a generall processyon vppon any certayne daye/ but that any lewde lyther losell that lyste not to ryse, may lye styll in hys bedde, & say he is not bounden to obay mannys tradycyons, nor nothyng but scrypture except for auoydyng of slaunder/ and then there shalbe so many at ys processyon that he shall not be myssed, & yf he be, some man may say he is syke. Vppon these wordes concernynge theyr tradycyons, wold I not haue ben so long/ sauyng that both frere Barns rially triumpheth wyth them agaynste the lawes of the chyrch, and also that Tyndale in his answere to the.xviii. chapyter of my dyaloge, bryngeth in the same for ys lyke entent. Which entent how properly they proue by- twene them both, now ye may partely se/ and yet farther shall by goddes grace when I shall hereafter god wyllynge, come to touche the place in Tyndales answere to me. But now that I haue proued that those wordes of Crist make not onely nothynge for theyr purpose agaynst ys lawes of Crystes chirche/ but also make playnely for the lawes agaynste theyr purpose: I shall not nede longe to tary you for the tother poynte/ that is to wytte, to proue you ys those wordes of Cryste nothynge make agaynste our pryncypall purpose. For they nothynge proue yt euery necessary thynge (Qiv] is wryten/ though we constre Crystes wordes not of the tradycyons, of whyche they be properly spoken in dede, but of the law of Moyses/ and set therunto the wordes of saynte Austayne also, wyth whyche Barns wolde seme so well to furnyshe his mater. For fyrst as for Crystes wordes yf they hadde ben playne & expressely these, what so euer the scrybis and pharysees bydde you do yt is wryten in the law of Moyses, I warne you se that you do yt: yet whyle he sayde not farther, & I warne you byleue them not in any thyng ellys/ these wordes were no profe ys all to gether was writen, wherin the peple shold byleue them no more then ys all thyng wherin they sholde byleue them, was wryten in Moyses bokes. Whyche yf yt were taken so/ then were all that they myghte teache the people writen in Esaie, Hieremie, or Ezechiel, by Cristes worde wyped oute of credens. Therfore by those wordes expownynge them of the doctryne of Moyses, and not of the tradycyons of the scrybes and pharysees/ yet is there nothynge proued that they were not to be byleued in any thynge that they sholde teache bysyde Moyses, nor bysyde all ys scrypture neyther. Nor those wordes of Cryste be not contrary, but that there myghte be yet at those dayes trewthes kepte amonge the people by tradycyon from the begynnynge, whyche the scrybes and pharysees bothe myght preache and remember to the people as they myght the scrypture, and be therin byleued. And therfore our sauyour sayd not, byleue them in nothing but the bokes of Moyses or other bokes of scrypture/ but he sayd, do not as they do/ not forbedinge them to byleue them in many other thynges, but forbedyng them to folow them in theyr vyces. Now if Cryste had sayd farther to the iewes/ all thynges necessarye be wryten, & therfore byleue the scrybes & pharysees no farther then ye fynde wryten in Moyses and in the prophetes: had thys proued that all thynge that crysten men muste byleue, is wryten in the apostles and the euangelistes? Now the wordes of saynt Austayne whyche frere Barons addeth therunto/ do for this purpose nothyng auaunce the mater. For when saynte Austayne applyeth those wordes of Cryste to a preacher that is not a very trew shepeherde, sekyng onely the weale of the flokke and ys pleasure of Criste/ but mercen- nary and an hyred man, that preacheth for lucre or other worldely affeccyons of hys owne/ and then sayeth yt in the chayre of Moyses is vndetstande the lernynge of the [Ri] law of god, and sayth that therfore god dothe teache vs by them, that is to wytte by those mercennary preachers to/ and therfore when they teache the law of god, here them and do thereafter/ but and if they wyll teache theyr owne doctrine, here yt not, do yt not/ for suche men seke that is theyres and not Crystes, that is to wyt theyr owne commodyte and not the pleasure of god: lo sayth Barns these wordes of saynte Austayne be playne agaynst all them that preche any thyng but the law of god onely. And forthwyth well and wysely in stede ofprechyng, he putteth ensample of statutes makyng/ as though yt were both one thynge, one man to preche, and all the chirche to make a statute. And bycause ye shold se yet hys playnesse and synceryte therin/ he fayneth that ys chirch maketh some openly and directly agaynst the worde of god, and to the destruccyon of the fayth/ as is that statute sayth he, whereby they haue condemned the new testament, and also forbeden certayne men to preache the worde of god/ hauynge no cause agaynste them but all onely theyr owne malycyouse suspycyon. Now of trouth there is no such statute made, nor no such thynge done, neyther concernynge the tone poynte nor the tother. For as for the new testament/ yf he meane the testament of Cryste, yt is not condemned nor forboden neyther, no more then was the holy arche, though euery man myght not be so bolde to touche yt. But of trouth, there is a false englyshe translacyon of the newe testament newly forged by Tyndale, so altered & chaunged in maters of great weyght, malycyousely to sette forth agaynste Crystes trew doctryne Tyndales antichrysten heresyes/ that yt was not worthy to be called Crystes testament, but eyther Tyndales owne testament, or the testament of hys mayster Antechryste. And therfore that boke is condemned as it is well worthy/ and the condemnacyon therof is neyther openly, nor pryuyly, directely, nor indirectely agaynst ys worde of god, nor tendeth not to the destruccion of the fayth, but very consonaunt wyth the worde of god, <2auferte malum ex vobismet>2 ipsis/>2 and greatly tendyng to the maynten- aunce of the fayth. And concernynge that testament: I haue both in my dialoge and in the secunde boke of thys wurke, well proued this poynte/ wherunto when Tyndale weneth to fynde any farther defence, let hym lay yt forth. There is also no statute made by ys chirch, to forbyd any [Riv] man to preache the worde of god hauyng no cause agaynst hym but theyr owne malycyouse suspycyon. Nor god I dowte not wyll neuer suffer hys chyrche to fall so madde, as to make suche a law. If frere Barns fynde any law made of suche mater, let hym reherse it/ and I waraunt you he shall fynde no suche wordes in it. There is in dede a law made, bothe by the chyrche and in thys realme by the parlyament to, that no man shall be suffred to preache in any dyocyse agaynste the bysshoppes wyll. And I wene that law be not agaynst goddes law, nor agaynste reason neyther/ excepte eyther goddys lawe or good reason sholde suffer that one man sholde medle wyth another mannes charge magry his teeth to whom ys charge bylongeth/ or ellys shold be suffred to sow shrewd seed of heresyes, scysmes, & sedycyons, among the people fyrst, & then be burned vp after at leysour. Such folke I suppose were better prohybyted bytymes, ere they be suffred longe to go forwarde, to ys parell of other mennes soules & theyr owne to. Such haue we had some prohybited here of late/ of whyche one was yet so sore set vppon euyll prechyng, ys after the prohybycyon & abiuracyon to, yet wold he preche heresyes styll/ vntyll at the last god caused hym to be taken, & Tindals bokes with hym to, & both two burned togyder/ wyth more profyte vnto his soule then had ben happely to haue lyued lenger & after dyed in his bedde. For in what mynde he sholde then haue dyed our lorde knoweth/ where as now we know well he dyed a good crysten man. And when he wyste well his reuocacyon coude not saue his body: yet reuoked he his heresyes and abhorred Tyndals bokes for to saue hys soule. Now here serue well the wordes of saynte Austayne agaynst Barns, whyche wordes Barns bryngeth for hym. For when we here such a mercennary precher as these heretykes be/ for the tyme ys we here them, yf they say aught well, and accordynge to the catholyke fayth, as they can not for shame saye all nought at ones: then take it. But when we here them preache theyr owne heresyes for the rewarde of worldely prayse, or delyte of theyr owne syngulare pryde, and so seke theyr owne and not Crystes: then here them not, but putte them to sylence and prohybyte them to preache any more. Thys allegorye wyll agre wyth ys sayd wordes of saynt Austayne & of Crystes wordes to. And yet so mych ys better, [Ri] in that these heretyques maye properly be called not onely mercennaryes, ofwhom saynt Austayne speketh / but also very scrybes and pharisees, of wurse kynde then were those of whom Criste in that gospel speketh. For these be false scribes/ that is to wytte wryters, not wrytyng anv trew bokes of scrypture, but false gloses and contrary commentes vppon scrypture, and erronyouse bokes of dyuelyshe heresyes dyuysed of theyre owne frantyque braynes/ to the coloure wherof they abuse the scrypture, and when they lyste they also denye ys scrypture. These be also ys worst kynde of pharysees. For these haue dyuyded them selfe not from the other people by any professyon of a more honest & more vertuous lyuynge / but haue dyuyded them selfe from the catholyque chirche of Cryste by abomynable heresyes, and from all honeste people by the contempte of all good wurkes, and by the bestely professyon of freres & nonnes lyuyng to gether in lechery, & preachyng theyr horedome for honeste matrymony. These be the thynges whyche we sholde not vouchsaufe to here these scrybes and these false pharysees preache. For these be the sonaunte to the catholyque fayth, ys very goddes law whyther yt be wryten or not. Nor saynt Austayn sayth not, Here them in preachynge onely the scripture/ but goddes law he sayth, wherein is comprehended all that euer we be bounden to do or byleue. Wherof saynt Austayn doth hym selfe confesse, that dyuerse thynges are vnwryten/ as for ensample the perpetuall virgynyte of our blessed ladye, whyche who so byleueth not bycause yt is not wryten, saynt Austayne calleth a false heretyque in hys boke wryten vnto <2quod vult>2 <2deus.>2 And so doth saynte Hierome to in hys boke agaynste Eluidius. And all such thynges be therfore partes of the plantes whyche the father of heuen planteth by hym selfe, hys apostles, his holy spiryte, and his owne sonne abydynge in hys chirche: whyther they be wryten or not. And thus ye se good reders, that neyther those wordes of Cryste, nor of saynt Austayne, neyther do proue that the apostles haue lefte all necessarye thynges in wrytynge. And therfore though Barns was so fonde to brynge in that text for this purpose: yet Tyndale perceyued well that yt wold not serue, and therfore lefte yt out. Yet layeth frere Barns a nother texte for thys purpose, ys wordes of saynt Poule wryten vnto Timothe the.iii. chapy[Riv]ter of ys.ii. pystle. Where saynte Poule wryteth vnto hym in thys wyse: Abyde thou in those thynges ys thou hast lerned, and ys are betaken to thee/ knowynge of whom thou haste lerned them, and that from thyn infancye thou haste knowen holy scrypture, whyche maye instructe the to helth by the fayth ys is in Cryste Iesu. All scrypture inspyred of god is profytable to teche, to reproue, to correcte, to teache men in iustyce, that the man of god maye be perfayte instructed to euery good worke. I haue rehersed you saynt Poules wordes more full then doth frere Barns/ bycause ye maye haue some gesse why he lefte the remanaunt out. For he reherseth no more but that ys chyrche muste neyther make law nor statute nor nothynge do, but onely preache and myn-  yster the worde of god/ and that nothynge addynge nor mynysshynge, but as Poule sayth to Timothe, abyde in those thynges that they haue lerned and that be commytted vnto them. Now se ye well that saynte Poule speketh nothynge to Timothe agaynst addynge of any good order or statute in hys chyrche/ but byddeth hym abyde faste by those thynges that he hath lerned of hym, and that he hath lerned in scrypture/ ioynynge to the scrypture alwaye the ryght fayth of Cryste whyche he had lerned of saynt Poule. And therfore agaynste makynge of any law, thys texte serueth frere Barons a strawe. Moreouer it is to be consydered that saynte Poule sayth not to Timothe, Abyde in those thynges that I haue wryten, but abyde in those thynges that thou hast lerned eyther in scrypture or ellys otlier- wyse of me wythout scrypture, as he wrote vnto the Thessalonycenses, Obserue ye my preceptes whyche I haue gyuen you, eyther by worde or wrytynge. And as he wryteth vnto Timothe before in the same pystle, Haue thou the forme and fasshyon of the holesome wordes, whyche thou haste herde of me in fayth & loue in Cryste Iesu. He sayth not the wordes that I haue wryten vnto thee, and that thou hast redde of myne/ but the Wordes that thou hast herd of me. But yet is there for thys purpose in that texte of saynte Poule that Barns bryngeth forth, another thynge to be consydered/ that where as saynt Poule telleth Timothe, that all be it he haue ben lerned in scrypture from hys chyldhed/ [Ri] yet he must ioyne therwyth ys artycles of the fayth of Cryst. And that it may well appere that he gyueth Timothe thys warnynge to arme hym wyth agaynst here- tyques, whyche wolde labour by some colour of apparent scryptures to destroye the fayth that Timothe had lerned, as these heretykes do now: it is I saye therefore to be noted ys saynt Poule gaue Timothe that warnynge, that he sholde stande faste in those thynges that he hadde taught hym/ remembrynge of whom he had lerned them, of a trew apostle, and not of such as they were, that wolde tell hym contrary, false heretykes. And so must we agaynste these heretykes fast and remember of whom we haue lerned it, of Cryste and hys apostles, and contynually from them of hys perpetuall apostle the catholyke chyrche of Cryste, anymated and instructed accordynge to hys promyse wyth hys owne spyryte this xv.C. yeres/ and not by suche as these be that now bable agaynst it, false heretykes/ whose snakysshe and serpentyne generacyons, haue euer more hytherto when they haue crept out as adders and snakes in somer, had theyr heddys troden downe by god and all good men. Saynt Poule tolde Timothe to / that the scrypture was good and profytable to teache the faythfull folke, and to reproue heretykes yf he ioyned ther- wyth alwaye the fayth of Cryste/ wythout whyche it wolde do hym no seruyce, for all that he had ben lerned therin from hys chyldhed. And in ys warnynge gyuen to Timothe saynt Poule hath taught vs also, that yf we haue sure in herte the artycles of Crystes fayth, whyche be surely kepte by Cryste in hys catholyque chyrche: then shall we be able well to vnderstande the scrypture, so mych as shall suffyce and be necessary. And but yf we haue that bylefe / we shall haue no ryght vnderstandyng. But that ryght byleyfe, and therby that vnder- standynge had / the scrypture (though all thynges be not wryten therin) wyll yet be profytable and stand vs in good stede, not onely for our instruccyon towarde the perfeccyon of vertuose lyuynge, but also in dysputacyon agaynste heretykes/ bothe in the profe of many artycles of the ryght bylyefe, and to proue them clerely that the comen consent of Crystes catholyke chyrche can not in crystes very trew fayth erre and be dampnably deceyued, whyther the thynges by- leued be wryten in scrypture or not/ and also that hys catholyke chyrche [Riv] ys this comen knowen chyrche of all crysten nacyons, saue such as be by false heresyes separated there fro. And on the tother syde, wythout the catholyque fayth of Cristes chirch fastened in our hartes/ the scrypture as yt coulde not haue serued Timothe wythout the trew fayth hadde in his harte, so can yt not serue vs neyther to the confusyon of heretykes nor to the spirituall profyte of our selfe. And thus ye se that frere Barons hath very pore helpe of this texte of saynt Poule/ whyche thynge Tyndale well percyued & therfore he lefte yt out. And Barns hym self perceyuynge that the moste parte wolde make so mych agaynst hym / toke in a lytle and lefte the remanaunt out. Yet bryngeth in Barns a nother texte of saynte Poule, where he wryteth vnto the Romayns in the.xv. chapvter: I dare not speke any other thynge then those that god hath wroughte by me. Whyche wordes fyrste be so hard as they stande in the place, that the old interpretours stode in great doute what saynte Poule ment by them/ so farre forth that by exposycyon of saynte Ambrose, saynte Poule ment that there was nothynge that perteyned to the glory of prechyng the worde of god, but that god had fulfylled yt in hym/ as rhough he wold say that all that was to be taught, god had taught the gentyles by hym. Origene expowneth them in a nother maner/ that saynt Poule in those wordes ment, that he wolde not take vnto hym self the prayse of other mennes dedys, but wolde onely speke of suche thynges as god had wrought by hym selfe. Theophylactus aloweth Origenes exposycyon, and yet addeth a thyrde therto, sayenge in the person of saynt Poule: I boste you not the thynges that I haue not done/ but onely shew you the thynge I haue done my selfe. How be yt that that I haue done/ ytis not I that haue done yt, but Cryste hath done yt I shew you this good reders bycause ye shold somwhat perceyue the maner of these men/ whyche vse in many thynges to proue theyr maters by those textes that are of moste dyffycultye, and suche as are leste vnderstanden. And therfore in the mater ofthe lyberty ofmannys wyll, & predestynacyon, and ys mater of fayth, and good wurkes: they passe ouer the playne textes of the other euangelystes wyth some slayght glose of theyr owne diuyse/ and then for the profe of theyr owne parte they runne to the hard places of the gospell of saynte Iohan, or to the apocalyps, or to ys pystles of saynt [Ri] Poule, in suche places as are almoste as hard as the apocalyps. All whych when they expowne as yt please them/ then they call them playne, and say that euery man & woman may vnderstand them easyly/ notwyth- standyng that saynte Peter beynge longe at scole wyth Cryste, and the chyefe of hys apostles, protesteth openly to all the worlde by wrytynge, that saynte Poules pystles haue thynges hard & dyffycyle. And he sayth farther of suche as Barns is & Tyndale, and such other heretyques theyr felowes: Those hard thynges sayth saynt Peter that are wryten by saynt Poule/ men vnlerned and vnstable, do depraue and mys- constre as they do all the remanaunt ofthe scrypture, vnto theyr owne erdycyon. And saynt Poule sayth hym selfe also, that in the mater of good wurkes, these false heretykes mysse constre hym / and sayeth therfore that theyre dampnacyon ys iuste and ryghtuouse. And thus as I say these heretyques laye forth for theyre parte hard textes and doutefull, as Barns doth here/ which texte in the place where yt standeth, the beste lerned men are in dowte how to constre yt. How be yt let Barns constre yt whych way he lyste, that may haue any hold of the wordes/ and it shafl neuer serue for his purpose, neyther concernyng any forbedynge of lawes to be made by the chirche, nor to proue that euery thynge necessary to saluacyon is writen in scrypture/ but rather playne the contrarye. For euery man well woteth, that euery necessarye thynge is not wryten by saynt Poule, nor he hath not wryten euery thynge that he taught, nor euery thynge is not now had that he dyd write. And therfore this text of saynt Poule brought in by Barns nothynge helpeth his pur- pose, but rather greatly hyndreth yt/ whych thynge Tyndale well perceyued, and therfore he lefte yt oute. Tyndale saw well also that any thynge that his mayster Marten Luther layde and lashed oute agaynste the kynges hyghnes, concern- ynge this purpose, or spekynge agaynste the tradycyons of men / serue to no purpose in this mater agaynste the sacramentes, or any poynte of the catholyque fayth, whyche we saye be the tradycyons of god. Wherof as Tyndale well knoweth/ nothynge that Luther layed, any thynge proue the contrary, nor any thynge touche the purpose, to proue that all the necessarye poyntes of the crysten fayth were by Crystes apostles putte in wrytyng. And ther[Riv]fore Tyndale seynge his mayster Martine Luther in that poynt by Rosseus so shamfully sowsed in the myre byfore: thought he wolde beware of that pudle and come no more nere yt/ and therfore lefte out all ys his mayster had brought in for the mater. Then was ther yet one texte remayned, wherof many of them were wonte to bere theym hygh. And that was the saynge of saynt Poule/ which text Tindale hath also brought forth ere thys, to proue that we muste byleue nothynge but onely scrypture. And that is where he wryteth to the Galathyes in the furst chapyter: that yf an angell of heuen wold come downe and preache any other gospell then hym selfe had done, accursed were he. Thys texte hath nowe frere Barns brought in a freshe for the same purpose in hys new frantyke boke, and magnyfyeth mych hym selfe therewyth, when Tyndale hath left it of for shame. For Tyndale at last after longe lokyng on it/ espyed well ys yt wold nothyng serue for hys mater. For he saw well that saynt Poule ment none other, but that an angell were not to be by- leued, yf he taught a contrarye gospell/ and ment not that none angell were to be byleued, yf god sent hym both to conferme that, and also shew somwhat that god wolde haue done farther. Tyndale saw also that that texte sayeth not that saynte Poule hath wryten all hys owne gospell, nor that all hys felowes hadde wryten yt amonge them all/ whyche he wyste well was the poynte that muste be proued. And therfore as frere Barns folyshely bryngeth yt in/ so doth Tyndale wysely leue yt out. And surely as I haue sayde, hys wytte serued hym well in leuynge out all these. But hys wyt fayled hym in one thynge, that he hadde not lefte oute also all that euer he hath hym selfe brought in. All whyche as your selfe se well/ I haue nowe proued hym as lytle to preue hys purpose, as hym selfe seeth well that all the tother dyd, whyche for that cause he was ashamed to speke of Now haue ye herd as farre as I can fynde, all that euer Iyndale evther hath sayde or can say in this mater/ eyther hym selfe or any man ellys for the profe of hys owne parte, or for the dysprofe of ours. And therby se ye well that he neyther hath proued, nor neuer shall he proue whyle he lyueth, neyther hym selfe nor no man ellys, the thyng that he so boldely sayth, that all thynge necessary for saluacyon is wryten in scrypture / nor able is he not, nor no man ellys, nor neuer [Si] shall hereafter be able to auoyde yt/ but that god taughte & ys not yet so bounden, but that he may teche what he wyll and when he wyll, wyth scrypture or wythout/ and may commaunde yt to be by- leued not beyng contrary to that he hath taught all redy, and maye commaunde some thynges to be done though they were contrarye to some thynges that he hadde hym selfe by scrypture commaunded afore. And I thynke yt not to be dowted but notwythstandynge that Movses receyued the laws and ceremonies in writyng: yet receyued he not (as Tyndale sayth he dyd) all thyng so fully in wrytynge, but that there remayned in the peoples myndes bysyde the wrytyng dyuerse thynges necessary and of great wayght, that they hadde receyued byfore, & kepte peraduenture from Adams owne dayes/ concernynge the commynge of Cryste, and the redempcyon by hym, and the state of soules, both in heuen, hell, purgatory, paradyse, & lymbus patrum. And yt wyll who so lyste to loke therfore, well be perceyued in them that wrote after Moyses dayes/ that the iewes had myche open lyght and knowlege in some such thynges bysyde all that that appereth writen/ in the.v. bokis of Moyses whereby yt wyll well appere that Tyndale sayeth not trew, where he sayth that Moyses dyd put afl in wrytynge. Ye shall well fynde also, ys not wythstandyng all that euer hath ben wryten synnys, eyther by the prophetes, euangelystes, or any other apostle: yet wyll yt neuer appere that all is wryten that was taught by mouth/ but that ys chirche of Cryste hath had taught vnto them by the spiryte of god, dyuerse treuthes, whyche no good man can doute in, wherof the scrypture nothynge determyneth / and whyche thynges therfore false heretyques brynge in questyon, and lette not to say the contrary, as in the comen knowen ensamples of our ladyes perpetuall virgynyte, of the assumpcyon of her blessed body, whyche god wold ellys haue had founden in erth, & honored as well as the bodyes of any other saynt/ of whom hym selfe hath caused by specyall reuelacyon dyuerse to be sought out and founden, to be wurshypped here in erth for hys sake, and confermed yt by many manifest miracles, as we fynde in autentyque storyes. By these tradycyons haue we also ys prayeng to saynts, and the knowledge that the pray for vs/ all be yt in ys boke of Machabees yet that thynge well appereth. [Siv] By these tradicions haue we the holy lenton faste/ which these brotheles so boldely take vppon them to breke, and as lollardes to eate fleshe/ and whyche holy faste these folys in theyr wrytynge call the folyshe faste. By these haue we also the saterdaye chaunged into ys sondaye, whyche they care not to turne into frydaye now. By these haue we the halowyng of chalyces, vestyments, pascall taper, and holy water, wyth dyuerse other thynges. these tradycyons of that holy spiryte/ hatll the chirch also the knowlege how to consecrate, how to say masse, and what thynge to pray for and to desyre therein. By thys haue we also the knowlege to do reuerence to the inlages of holy sayntes, and of oure sauyour/ and to crepe to hys crosse/ and to do dyuyne honour vnto the blessed sacrament of the auter, to whyche yet to saye the trouth neuer tradv- cyon neded. For syth the scrypture ys playne that yt is Crystes owne precyouse bodye, whyche ys not dede but quykke, wyth that blessed souleand wyth them the godhed vnseparably ioyned: what frantyque fole coulde doute but yt sholde be wyth dyuyne honour wurshypped, though neyther god nor man bysyde that knowledge, hadde geuen vs warnynge therof But yet is Tyndale so farre bysyde hym selfe/ that he byleueth not the scrypture of god, nor the word spoken by goddes owne moutg, when he sayde that yt is hys owne body/ and is so blasphemouse agaynst god, that he calleth it great synne to do to that blessed bodye of Cryste in the sacrament any honour at all, bycause yt ys not commaunded he sayth in scrypture. But thus may ye good crysten readers se, to what puyntat laste thys heresye bryngeth these folke. For when they fyrste fall to that poynt, that they regarde not goddes word but yf he geue yt them in wrytynge: wythin a whyle after fall they downe so farre, ys they neyther regarde hys worde, nor his wrytynge, nor yet hym selfe neyther. But nowe is yt a worlde to se what shyfte these folke be fayne to seke. Sometyme they come forth shamlesse, and boldely tell on theyre tale. And yet when they perceyue in the myddes thereof, that all that here theym wonder on them: then they caste on theyr hodes and keuer theyr faces for shame. For somtyme they say they care but for scrypture alone, [Si] and set nought by all those that euer wrote synnys the apostles dayes. Then se they agayn that to abyde by that word were to shamelesse/ and then they restrayne it vnto this.viii. hundred yeres laste paste, in whyche they saye all is corrupted. And then they graunte that before, there were good men that taught the trewth/ and then they saye that we wyll not byleue them, as though them selfe wolde. And when we aske them then/ Whyche of those olde men before .viii.C. yere last past, euer sayed that relygyous men myght runne out and Wedde nonnes: to that they say nothynge, but fare as though they herd it not. But when that my lorde of Rochester in the selfe same mater ys we haue now in hande, to proue that dyuers thynges Whyche the chyrch vseth and byleueth, and whych Were neuer made by any law wryten, and yet obserued thorow ys catholyke chyrche / were of suche antyquyte that euery man myghte well perceyue that they came from ys very apostles them selfe: he layed forth the greate clerke & olde auncyent father Origene/ wherwyth as I haue shewed you before Tyndale was very angry, and all to rated Origen & called hym starke heretyke. But yet shall not Tyndale so fere me there Wythall/ but that to thentent that he shall not blynde you and make you wene that all the olde fathers were in thys mater of hys mynde/ but that ye shall Well se that the thynges whyche he reproueth and wolde haue you wene were nought worth, bycause he sayth they be not in scry- pture, be not thynges deuysed as Tyndale sayth by popys and popysh wythin thys viii.C. yere: I shall as I promysed byfore in ys second boke, reherse you bothe the wordes of Origene/ and besyde some vndowted holy men synnes, I shall reherse you dyuers other aboue.viii.C. yere, and aboue.ix.C. yere, and aboue a thousande to, of Whom my lorde of Rochester hath gathered dyuerse togyther, and rehersed in the same mater in liys boke agaynst Luther/ all Whyche saue Origene onely Tyndale dyssembleth, bycguse he may not call them heretykes as he called Origene / for whom I haue in that poynt answered Tyndale in my sayd seconde boke before. Origene in the fyfte homely vppon the boke of Numeri wryteth in thys wyse: In the obseruaunces of the chyrche, some thynges there are, Whyche muste of necessyte be obserued and kept/ and yet the cause why appereth not to euery [Siv] man. As (for ensample) that we knele when we pray/ & that of all partes of the heuen, we moste specyally tourne vs toWarde the este. I suppose that no man lyghtely knoWeth ye cause Why. Moreouer of the sacrament of thaulter, eyther the maner in the receyuyng, or the guyse and fashyon of the conse- cracyon /or in the rece ale wordes and ceremonyes vsed in baptysme, and of the questyons and answeres vsed in the same: who may well open and declare the reason? And yet all these thynges though they be coueryd and hyd/ we bere vppon our shoulders what tyme we in the great byshoppe Cryste and hys chyldren, delyuered and com- mended vnto vs. Damascene in the fourth boke in the.xiii. chapyter of ye prayeng towarde the oryente wryteth thus: This tradicyon of the apostles, is not wryten / for many thynges are delyuered vnto vs wythout wrytynge. And farther in the.xv11. chapyter where it is wryten of ys Wurshyppynge of the ymages of sayntes, he sayeth that many thynges the holy apostles haue delyuered vnto vs wythout wrytynge. Saynt Poule the apostle of the gentyles wryteth in this wyse: Stande faste and obserue our tradycyons, Whyche ye be taught, be yt by our worde or by wrytynge. And vnto the Corynthyes thus: I commende ye my brethern/ by- cause in euery thyng ye haue remembred me, and kepte the trady- cyons as I delyuered ye them. Dyonise the fyrste chapyter of <2Ecclesiastic@ hierarchi@,>2 of the leders and maysters of the crysten fayth, sayth that they delyuered vs many thynges to be kepte, partely by wrytynge and partely by theyr instytucyons vnwryten. Saynte Cypriane in his sermon of the Wasshynge of the fete: The hygh preste hym selfe, is the ordayner and author of his owne sacra- ment. In all the resydew men Were taught by the holy goste. And lykewyse as in Criste and in the holy goste, is lyke and egall godhed: so is there in theyr instytucyons and ordynaunces lyke power and egall authoryte. And no lesse is yt ratytyed of god, the thyng that thapostles by the inspyracyon of the holy goste dyd instytute: then the thynge that hym selfe hath ordeyned/ and hath in remembraunce of hym selfe, wylled and commaunded to be done. Eche of them hath theyr owne proper dygnyte/ and eche of them hath in theyr owne kynde egall authoryte. Nothynge [Si] maye there eyther be addyd or wyth- drawne, nothynge neyther reforined nor chaunged. Saynte Hyllary in the syxte boke of the Trynyte, when he had made mencyon of the apostles wryteth in this wyse: Of these apostles am I taught these thynges ys I obserue. In them am I so seasoned, that the taste can neuer be goten oute. Theophilactus vppon these wordes of saynt Poule, My brethern stande faste and kepe the tradycyons that ye haue lerned, be yt b my worde or by my letters: of this trewly yt is euydent that saynt Poule delyuered vnto them many thynges to be kepte wythout wrytynge, and by worde of mouth onely/ that ys to saye wyth lyuely voyce, not by letters all onely. For as well be those thynges to b byleued, as these. And therfore let vs esteme thobseruaunces of the chyrce worthy to be byleued/ so that yf any thynge be delyuered to vs by the chyrch: neuer aske farther questyon. Savnte Hierome interpretynge the .xi. chapyter of the fyrste epystle to the Corynthyes, sayth in this wyse: Saynt Poule preuente them, to thentent none of them shold say/ where is this wryten? no shold wyth any other argumentes stryue agaynste this reason. An therfore he sayde, we haue no suche custome to stryue and contende neyther we nor yet the chirche of god, whych is rather geuen to myldenesse then to contencyon and stryfe. Theophilactus expowneth the same place lykewyse and sayth: For as myche as the Corinthyans wolde perchaunce collour this mater by certayne subtyltyes, and wente about yt by syllogysmys & sophistyca- cyons/ alledgynge that these thynges were neyther good nor bad, but of theyr nature indyfferent: therfore saynt Poulr sayde, we haue no such custome other to be contencyouse, or a man to let his here grow in length, or a woman to go bare hed, neither haue we (sayd saynt Poule) this custome/ nor the chirche of god that ys, nor th other crysten people neyther. And therfore by suche frowarde argu- mentes/ ye seme to resyste and withstande not onely me, but also the chyrche yt selfe. These wordes therfore of saynte Poule / maye make the herers ashamed, to do any thynge contrarye to the custome receyued by the chyrche. Saynte Leo also an holy man and a cunnynge / in a sermon that he maketh in the faste at whytesontyde, sayeth in [Siv] thys wyse: There is no doute my welbeloued brethern, but that euery crysten obseruaunce is of Crystes techynge/ and what so euer is receyued of the chyrche into a custome of deuocyon, commeth of thapostles tradycyon, and of the doctryne of ys holy goost. Which holy spiryte euen now also doth rule all faythfull hertes wyth his own instruccyon, to make them kepe them obedyently and vnderstande them wysely. Saynte Austayne in the boke of the baptysme of yonge chyldren, agaynste the Pelagians wryteth in thys wyse. Chyldren whiche be baptysed be taken in ye nomber of faythfull peple/ and that onely by an olde canoiivke & sure grounded custome of the chyrche. And in a nother place agayne: Now sayth he we haue shewed you afore ys the lyttell chyld beleueth, & that he is accounted amonxst men ys be baptysed.Thys holdeth the authoryte of our mother holy chirch/ and this holdeth the rule of the sure grounded fayth. Who so runneth agaviiste this fortresse, this inexpugnable wall/ shall all to frush hym selfe. Cassianus in the.xi. collacyon the.xii. chapiter: Thauthoryte of the olde fathers, and the custome of our elders contynued by the space of so many yeres vnto this day/ although the cause of them be not perceyued by vs: muste we fyrmely byleue. And yt custome must we with perpetuall obseruaunce reuerently fulfyll, in such wyse as yt was delyuered of olde. Saynte Austayne in the.cxviii. pystle to Ianuary sayeth thus: Those thynges whych are not wryten, and yet we by tradycyon obseruc them, such I meane as are thorow Crystendome kepte: we may well vnderstande that they be kept as thynges ordeyned and com- maunded vnto vs, eyther by the apostles them selfe, or ellys by generall counsayles / the authoryte wherof is in the chyrch moste necessary. As for ensample that the passyon of Cryste, and his resurreccion, and hys ascensyon into heuen, and the comynge of the holy goost from heuen are yerely celebrate with a solemne feaste/ and what someuer thyng we fynde that is obserued amonge all people, where the chyrche of Cryste ys sprede. any thynges be not founde in the wrytynges of the apostles, nor in the counsayles of those that cam after them/ whyche yet bycause they be kepte of all the hole chyrche, we byleue them to haue hadde no nother bygynnynge, but by the tradycyon and commendacyon of the apostles vnto vs by them selfe. [Si] Saynt Austayne in the fourth boke of baptisme agaynst the Dona- tystes: The thynge that the hole chyrche holdeth, and is not instytute and ordeyned by counsayles, and that notwytstandynge hath ben euer obserued: we very well byleue, that yt neuer byganne but by the authoryte of the apostles tradycyon. Saynte Austayne in the fyfte boke of baptysme agaynst the Donatistes sayth, Many thynges are there whyche the vnyuersall chyrche holdeth / and therfore be well byleued, that the apostles haue commaunded them, though they be not founde in wrytynge. Saynte Austayne in the.xi. chapiter of the.ix. boke of his con- fessyons, wrytynge of the departyng of that holy blessed woman his mother Monica: sheweth that all be yt before tyme she had ben very studyous of the place where she wold be beryed, longed specyally to be layed by her husbande/ yet at the tyme that she lay dyenge, beynge then farre from the place where her husbande lay/ shewed vnto saynt Austayne then present wyth her, that she cared not in what chyrch they beryed her bodye / but she prayed hym very effectually to remember her in his masse. Whyche thynge I wryte ys ye may se, that the masse and prayenge for soules therin, ys not so new a thynge as Tyndale wolde haue yt seme, And in the nexte chapyter after, saynte Austayne sayeth these wordes spoken vnto god: Her body was caryed forth, we folowed, & cam agayne wythoute teares. And ouer ys in those prayers whych we made vnto the, when ys sacryfyce of our redempcion was offered for her, ye corps beyng set by the graue as ye maner is there: I wept not in those prayers neyther, but all ys day was I in a greuouse secrete sorowe. And afterwarde in the laste chapyter of the same boke, saynt Austayne prayeth for his mother vnto our lord among many other wordes in thys wyse. I good lorde that art my prayse and my lyfe, the god of my hart/ settynge a syde for the whyle my mothers vertues and goodnesse, for whych I ioyfully geue the thankes: wyll now beseche the for her synnys. Here me gracyously good lorde/ for that medycyne of our woundes whyche honge vppon the crosse, and now syttynge at thy ryght hande, doth call vppon the for vs. I know good lorde that she dyd workes of mercy, and that she hartely dyd forgyue the dettes vnto her dettours. Forgyue thou good lorde her dettes to her, suche also as she hath fallen in [Siv] by so many yeres after ys water of helthe. Forgyue her good lorde forgyue her I beseche the, and enter not wyth her into iudgement. And afterwarde he sayth, And I beleue good lorde, that thou hast done all redy the thynge that I praye for. For she when the daye approched of her departynge/ no thyng bethought her how she myghte haue her body costely couered or dressed wyth spyces, nor longed for a sumptuouse sepulchre, nor cared not to be beryed in her owne countrey. These were not the thynges that she any thynge requyred vs/ but onely desyred vs to haue her in remembraunce at thyne auter, to whyche she hadde ben accustomed no daye myssynge to do seruyce/ from whyche she well knewe that holy sacryfyce to be dyspensed, by whyche the oblyga- cyon that made agaynst vs was cancelled, and by whyche was led as a captyue in triumphe that ennemy of ours, ys kepeth a reken- ynge of our synnes/ and sekynge what he myght obiecte, coulde in hym nothynge fynde in whom we haue had the vyctory. Who can shed hym agayne an innocent blood for hys? who can restore hym agayne the raunson that he redemed vs wyth? To the sacrament of whych raunson of ours, thyne hand mayde hath bounde her soule with ye bonde of fayth. Let no man pull her from thy proteccyon. Let neyther the lyon nor ys dragon neyther by force nor by false sleyght, steppe in betwene her and the. She shall not answere that she oweth the naught, lest she be therin conuynced and cast, and that therby her suttle accuser get her. But she shall answere that her dettes be forgyuen her, whom no man is able to paye yt he payed for vs, when he owed naught for hym selfe. In peace mote she be therfore, and her husbonde to/ afore whom and after whom she neuer maryed none / whom she lyke a seruaunt obeyd bryngynge frute to the, thorow her pacyent sufferaunce, that she myght therby wynne hym to the to. Inspyre good lorde my god, inspyre thy seruauntes my bretherne, thy chyldren my lordes, whom both wyth worde and herte and wrytynge I serue/ that as many as rede thys may remember at thyn aulter, thy seruaunt Monica with Patricius somtyme her husbande, by whose flesh thou haste brought me into thys lyfe I can not tell howe. Make them remember wyth a deuoute affeccion, them that were in thys transytory lyfe my father and mother, & vnder the mv father and my mother the catholyke chyrche, were my syster and brother, and in the eternall Hierusalem, shall [Ti] be my neyghbours and cytesens / whyche Hierusalem thy people from theyr goynge forth tyll theyr commyng home, in all theyr pylgrymag longeth for and sygheth. Good lord graunte thys, that ys thynge whych was the laste that euer she desyred of me, she may the more plentuously obteyne, by the prayours of many mo. The olde holy doctour saynte Chrysostome, in his homelye wherin he sheweth that almes dede, masses, and diriges greatly profyte them that are dede/ among many other thynges wryteth in thys wyse. It was not for naughte ordeyned by thapostles, that in the dredfull mysteryes of the masse, sholde commemoracyon be made for them that be dede. For thapostles knewe that thereby cometh to the soules, great auauntage and profyte. For when all the people standeth to gether, holdynge vppe theyr handes, and the preste fulfylleth hys obseru, aunce, and that dredfull sacrifyce set forth: how can yt be, but that then praynge for the soules, we shall obteyne. Now se you very playne good cristen readers,-that of the eldeste and the very beste that euer haue wryten vppon the scrypture of god in Crystes chirche, and whyche bene holy sayntes in heuen, and suche as sufferd persecucyon for goddes sake: do testyfye for our parte, that the thynges whych the catholyke chirche vnyuersally byleueth and vseth, are nothynge to be douted of/ but to be byleued and vsed whyther they be founden in scrypture or not. And ye se that they saye that the apostles taught and delyuered to the chyrche dyuerse thynges by mouth, bysyde all ys they wrote, whyche thyng saynt Poule sayth also hym self/ and yet bysyde that, we se that of his wrytynge there is parte loste. Ye se also that some suche thynges as Tyndale sayeth, that the popes haue of late fayned them selfe for theyr lucre, as the masse and the paynes of purgatory: both saynte Austayne, and saynte Chrysostome, and other holy sayntes/ saye that the thynges were byleued, vsed, and taught by the apostles them selfe. And thus as for the olde holy doctours, ye se howe farre they go fro Tyndale/ and therfore of Tyndale or theym byleue whom ye lvke beste for me/ and consyder well wyth vour selfe, wyth whyther of those two were surer to sende [Tiv] your soules. Yetis there as old as any that I haue rehersed yet, saynt polycarpus the dyscyple of saynte Iohan, whyche wrote a boke of the tradycyons geuen vnto the chyrche by the apostles/ whyche wolde playnely haue proued Tyndale a fole and a lyar both,yf the boke hadde not ben loste. And vndoutely god wolde neuer haue sufferd yt to be loste, yf he coulde not haue kepte hys tradycyons without wrytynge. How be yt what nede we better or elder then as I byfore haue sayde, the authoryte of saynte Iohan hym selfe in hys laste chapyter of ys gospell: Many thynges were done that are not writen in this boke/ or of saynt Poule wrytyng hym selfe to the Corynthyes: All other thynges I wyll ordeyne when I come my selfe / and to the Thessalonycenses: kepe you my preceptes or institucyons, whych I haue geuen you eyther by worde or by my pystle. By whych wordes yt appereth well, yt he had wryten vnto them byfore that then was holy scrypture, and yet hadde ben yf yt hadde ben kepte and preserued, and was not wythout good thynges therin and necessarye/ wherof parte may be suche thynges as the heretykes now do barke at, bycause the pystle is loste. But god is not loste, that preserueth styll the mater though he lette go the letter. Saynte Poule also to Timothe wryteth of such vnwryten trady cyons well and playnely, in his secunde pystle in these wordes: Thou therfore my son Timothe, be comforted in the grace that is Cryste Iesu/ and those thynges that thou haste herd of me by many wytnesses, commyte theym vnto faythfull men, such as shalhe mete to teche them forth to other men. Those wordes of saynt Poule do very playnely shew, ys some thynges there were whyche saynt Poule taught Timothe, and that in presence of certayne good vertues wytnesse/ and whyche thynges were as saynt Ambrose sayth secrete mysteries. Whych thynges he there commaunded Timothe to commytte also to other faythfull men, suche as shold be able and mete to teche, to thentent that they myght teche the same thynges farther / and whiche be some of such thynges as these heretyques now barke at, that are comen fro mouth to mouth, and from hande to hande, from the apostles dayes vnto our owne. [Ti] It is a myche lesse thynge also, to byleue our selfe to be bounden to do a thynge of necessyte, wythout authoryte of scrypture/ then to thyiike our selfe wythoute scrypture vnbounden and in no necessyte to do the thynge whyche we fynde commaunded in scrypture. But we fynde commaunded in scrypture, fyrst by the law of nature, and after in the law wryten, ys olde law wyth a cause annexed for vyolatyng of nature, and after agayne by the apostles, as I haue rehersed, in the new law the.xv. of the actes, that men sholde abstayne from strangled, and from bloode/ of whyche commaunde- ment in scrypture we se no dyscharge but the custome of the catho- lyke chyrch / & yet hath Tyndale no scruple to eate a puddyng though he se it prohybyted by all the lawes, and by the apostles them selfe, & by the holy goost to, wyth lyke wordes as they forbode fornycacyon. And dyscharge as I say seeth he none, but the tradycyon of the chyrche/ whyche when he dare byleue in leuynge a thynge vndone, that the scrypture so often commaundeth: why dare he not byleue the tradycyon of the chyrche, where it commaundeth a thynge to be done, that the scrypture dothe not forbede, but onely speketh not of it. I wolde in lyke wyse fayne wyt of Tyndale, whyther he thynke any parte of crysten people bounden at thys daye of necessyte to the wasshyng of the fete, wherof Cryste at hys maunday gaue ensample and commaunde- ment also/ not without a greate thretenynge vnto saynte Peter of losse of heuen, but yf he suffred hym to wasshe his fete. I dowte not but Tyndale thynketh hym selfe dyscharged of that bond/ and yet are the wordes of Crystes commaundement in that obseruaunce, as playne as in the commaundement of the sacrament of the auter/ and longe was it vsed after in suche wyse/ and saynte Cypryane dyd in hys dayes reken it for a thynge necessary. Now let Tyndale tell me wher- by he knoweth hym selfe dyscharged of that wasshynge, but by the spyryte of god abydyng in his chyrch. And let hym then tell me whyche chyrche but hys catholyke chyrche. For an vnknowen chyrche can tell hym nothynge, and all other knowen chyrches besyde the catholyke be all knowen for heretykes. Or ellys let Tyndale tell whyche of all them is the trew chyrch/ & why rather ys then any of all the remanaunt. [Tiv] If the spyryte of god gouernynge the chyrche, and ledynge it in to all trouth, put vs not in surety and certaynte of the trouth: how coud he be to vs as he is named <2Paracletus,>2 that is a comforter, yf we were lefte so comfortelesse that we were vncertayne whyther the hole chyrche were in damnable errour in stede of the ryght fayth. Take awaye that spiryte fro the chyrche/ and howe can Tyndale excuse the apostles of theyr baptysynge in ys name of Cryste onely, when Cryste hadde hym selfe commaunded them to baptise in the name of the fater and the sonne & the holy goost. How wyll he excuse saynt Poule for takynge awaye the circumcysyon, whych god hadde byfore commaunded, and sayde that yt sholde be his euerlastynge token and couenaunte, and Cryste kepte it hym selfe/ and saynt Poule circum- cysed Timothe hym selfe, and yet after- warde forbode yt? how knew he when he shold do the tone and when the tother? by bare ymagynacyons of hys owne mynde? naye by that spiryte they knew yt / whyche as yt ruled them, so ruleth yt the chyrch in the necessary poyntes of fayth, and euey shall vnto the worldes ende. God proued, wyll Tyndale saye, theyr doctrine wyth myracles. So the doctryne of hys whole chyrche contynually. For therin he wurketh miracles contynually/ and in all the chyrches of heretyques is there wroughte neuer one. Weneth Tyndale that our lorde hadde the cure of hys apostles whom he ordeyned for hys chyrche/ and that he hath no cure of hys chyrche for whome he made hys apostles. And yf Tyndale lyste so precysely to lene to scrypture onely, that he wyll not take the comen catholyque fayth for an interpretour: he shall fynde it very hard to defende some suche poyntes as be not onely trew, but be also suche as yf the chyrche wolde saye contrary, yet wolde he say they were trewe. For Tyndale setteth not so myche by baptysme, but that he wyll agre that fayth iustyfyeth wythoute baptysme. And yet take awaye the credence of the catolyque chyrch/ and he shall neuer be able whyle he lyueth so well to proue by scrypture, that a martyr may be saued and broughte to heuen wythout baptysme, but that these wordes of oure sauyour [Ti] shall alwaye stande styll in his lyghte, <2nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua & spiritu>2 sancto, non potest introire in regnum dei.>2 Who so be not borne agayne of the water and the spyryte, can not enter into the kyngdome of heuen. Now where as Tyndale techeth after his mayster Martine Luther, that as often as a man onely repent, though he be neuer in mynde do penaunce nor be confessed neyther/ hys onely fayth shall saue hym, and geteth hym forthwyth full remyssyon both of synne and payne: yf he wyll geue credence to the chyrche, he shall fynde that fayth of hys full false. And yf he wyll not geue credence to the chyrche, but precysely stande to the scrypture: then shall he fynde yet that fayth more false, yf he wyll be bounden as precysely to the wordes hym selfe as he wolde bynde other men. For he shall neuer be then so well able to proue that any man fallynge to dedely synne after crystendome ones hadde, shalbe by any repentaunce restored agayne/ but that there wyll stande styll in his lyghte the wordes of the apostle sayenge, when we wylfully synne after the knowledge of the trouthe hadde, there is not nowe lefte vs any sacrifyce for synnes/ but a terryble expeccyon and lokynge for of iudgement, and of fyerce and ragyouse fyre, whyche shall consume the aduersaryes. There wyll also stande in hys lyght, these wordes of the apostle: yt is im- - possyble that they whyche haue ben ones illumyned and haue tasted that heuenly gyfte, and haue be made partetakers of ys holy goost, and haue tasted also the good worde of god, and the vertues of the world to come, and are fallen downe:. sholde be renewed agayn to penaunce/ crucyfyeng agayne for theyr owne parte, the sonne of god, and hauynge hym as in derisyon. If Tyndale say that he can so constre these textes as they shall not hurte his heresyes: I deny not ys he so may do/ & I can to so constre them, that they shall not hurte the trouth, that is to Wytte the catholyque fayth. But yet this I saye, that when he and I haue both done wllat we can/ yet who so lyste to holde that heresye agaynste his repentaunce and the chyrches penaunce to, shall not lakke wordes wherwith he maye seme to suche as wyll sette the chyrche at naughte, to maynteyne hys parte as well as we bothe maynteyne ours. And therfore I say takynge aWaye the credence from [Tiv] the catholyque knowen chyrche (for no chyrche vnknowen can be byleued, syth it can not be herd/ and all other knowen chyrches be false, or ellys lette Tyndale as I haue often sayde tell me whyche of theym all is the trewe, and why we sholde therin byleue hym) the credence therfore as I saye taken from the catholyque knowen chyrche/ there can be no thynge sure but all thynge vncertayne, both tradycyons ofthapostles, exposycyons of scrypture, and the very scrypture yt selfe to. And vnto the tother syde, yf the credence of the knowen catholyke chyrche abyde, as it nedys muste abyde yf ye scrypture abyde, by whyche it is promysed by Cryst that hym self and hys owne holy spyryte shall dwell therwyth all dayes vnto the worldes ende: then sure not onely whyche are the holy scryptures and the sure holsome exposycyons therof, but also whych are the tradycyons delyuered vnto the chyrche by god/ of Whyche some were delyuered by the apostles them selfe, and some by hys holy spyryte synnes. And what so euer Tyndale bable to the contrary/ god is yet at as mych lybertye to teache hys chyrche forther what trouth he wyll hereafter, and to delyuer it what tradycyon he wyll hereafter, and to com- maunde hys hole chyrche to byleue and obaye hym therin/ as well I saye hereafter as euer he Was before. byleue nor do nothynge as of necessyte, but that is all redy wryten in scrypture: Why shall any one man be bounden to byleue or do any thynge as of necessyte, though god byd hym by mouth/ yf it be not wryten in scrypture? And yf he wyll saye, no more maye any one man be bounden Aeyther: then putteth he away quyte all reuela- cyons/ whych I neuer herd any man hytherto deny, but that god maye reuele and man be bounden to byleue and obaye. And surely yf he graunte that any one man maye be bounden therto: so maye then for aught that I can se or aught that he can saye, the hole chyrche in lyke wyse. Fynally there is no dowte, but that ere the new testament was wryten/ men were bounden to byleue thynges without scrypture. And then syth Tyndale wyll nothynge byleue vs wythout scrypture/ and he maye not loke of reason that we [Ti] sholde any more byleue hym wythout scrypture then he vs: let Tyndale now tell me therfore by whyche texte of scrypture in all that is wryten, is that bond releaced and dyscharged. And where are we eyther commaunded or lycenced, no thyng to byleue but yf it be conteyned in that scrypture that is now wryten. Whyche thynge yf he can not shewe (as he can not in dede) then abydeth that bond styll, to byleue the thynges that the catholyke chyrche techeth vs as the worde of god to be byleued and yet vnwryten/ as the same bonde stode and bounde vs before, to byleue those necessary thynges that now be wryten. Now yf Tyndale answere thys argument and saye, that he nedeth not to laye forth any texte of scrypture dyschargynge vs of that bonde/ but that it is inough for hym to proue that all thynge that is of necessyte, is by the apostles wryten/ and that no suche thynge as we be bounden to byleue or do, is by them selfe vnwryten: yf Tyndale answere vs thus, then is he but where he was. For then shall we yet agayne byd hym do as he nedys muste and neuer may, brynge in one texte of scrypture by whyche he maye proue that all suche thynges be wryten. Whyche thynge when he can not do/ yf he wyll then be playne and confesse the trouth that he can not proue hys owne parte, but wyll then byd vs proue our owne parte/ and wyll tell vs that lyke as he sayth that the apostles dyd put all in wrytynge wherof he fayleth hys profe, so we saye that they dyd leue dyuers thynges vnwryten/ and that of those be some of such thynges as the chyrche now byleueth and obserueth that are not wryten in scrypture/ and wyll byd vs go proue hym that for our parte, and wyll saye that ellys he is no more bounden to byleue vs then we be to byleue hym: yf Tyndale wyll as I saye confesse the trouth ys he can not proue hys owne parte, and therfore wyll byd vs go proue ours/ then shall we tell hym that we proue oures by the manyfolde playne textes of holy scrypture afore remembred, bothe of saynt Iohan & of saynt Poule/ & myghte yet adde dyuers other wyth whyche Rosseus an englysshe man hath longe a go proued that poynte vnto Luther/ and that so clerely that as Tyndale knoweth, Luther was neuer able to answere one worde agayne. And I saye ferther [Tiv] that we proue our parte, that is to wyt ys the apostles gaue thynges vnto the chyrche wythout wrytynge, whyche haue in the chyrche contynued besyde the scrypture. thyse ayne proue to Tyndale by the selfe same mean proueth vs that he knoweth the scrypture to be the scrypture. For yf he wyll saye as he sayeth in hys boke agaynste me, that he knoweth the scrypture by the same meanes that the eagle knoweth her byrdes/ meanyng that as she knoweth them by a secrete inwarde instincte of nature, so he knoweth the scrypture by a secrete inwarde instyncte of the spiryte of god: I saye that we know the tradycyons taught by god and hys apostles by the same secrete inwarde instyncte of the same spiryte. But then saye we farther that the same spiryte dyd teache the chirche to know whych was the very scrypture, byfore it dyd teche yt Tyndale. And Tindale had not byleued that the scryp- ture was the scrypture, yf the chirche hadde not tolde hym so. Nor the holy spyryte hadde not wrought wyth Tyndale towarde the by- lyefe therof/ yf Tyndale when the chyrche tolde hym so, hadde done as he doth, sette the chyrche at nought. For synnes that he so hath done/ he not onely byleueth not the tradycyons of god geuen to his chyrche by his apostles and his worde vnwryten, but also byleueth lesse of the scrypture then he dyd byfore. And I saye that god by hys worde vnwryten dyd teache his chyrche to know his wordes wryten, and his tradycions also, whyche he taught the chyrche by his apostles/ and made the chyrche agre therin by his spyryte, whiche maketh de and one custome in the chyrche, and whyche spiryte kepeth both the wordes wryten and the wordes vnwriten in perpetuall knowledge and obseruaunce in his chyrche/ accordynge as the very.worde of god vnwryten, that is hys naturall worde of hym selfe bygoten seeth necessarye abydynge wyth his chirche for euer accordynge to his owne promyse. And now if Tyndale aske with which chyrche? I saye wyth hys catholyque chyrche / wyth hys chirche in whyche onely chirche he wurketh miracles wyth his chirche, whyche he commaundeth men to here and obay / and fynally wyth the same chirche, by whyche chirche Tyndale lerned to know whych is the scripture. Whych chirch lette Tyndale tell me why he shold not as well byleue when [Ti] yt telleth hym, these thynges the apostles dyd teache and delyuer wythout wrytynge/ as he byleueth yt, when yt telleth hym these bokes the apostles dyd wryte. If nothynge hadde be wryten/ Tyndale muste haue byleued the chirche in all to gether. And why sholde he now for the wrytyng of parte (for that all is wryten ye se well he can not proue) byleue the chyrch the lesse in the remanaunt that remayneth yet vnwryten/ or for that that was wryten at one tyme, byleue the chyrche the lesse in all that yt teacheth after vnwryten? Whyche thynge Tyndale doth, and that so farre forth / yt where as god worketh mirycles in his chirche to make the chyrche and the doctryne thereof knowen for trew: Tyndale then vnder the false pretexte of fauour to goddes wrytynge, blasphemeth all his vnwryten wordes, and hym selfe to, wyth callynge goddes myracles nothynge but dyuels wonders. And this doth Tyndale/ bycause he wolde not in any wyse, that the chyrche hadde any credence farther then yt can proue by ys wryten wordes of some apostle/ where he woteth well that thapostles wrote not all that they taught, and also that god ordeyned his apostles for hys chyrch, and not his chyrche for hys apostles/ and doth therfore more esteme and more sette by his chyrche, then by any of his apostles, or all the whole twelue to gether. And yet wyll not Tyndale byleue for goddes word any thynge that the chyrch teacheth for his worde, but yf he fynde it wryten in holy scrypture/ where as yf he byleue not ye chyrch, he can neuer tell of any parte of scripture whyther it be holy scrypture or not. But his dealynge well declareth wherfore he wold haue nothynge byleued wythoute scrypture. The cause is none other but bycause he wolde haue nothynge byleued of no man but what he lyste hym selfe. For he wyll not stykke to denye some parte of holy scrypture for holy scrypture/ and expowne all the remanaunt in suche false folyshe fashyon, that among his other hundred heresyes, he wolde make vs so madde to byleue that freres may wedde nonnes, and that no man sholde wurshyppe the precyouse body & holy blood of Cryste in the blessed sacrament of the auter. And fynally thus ye se that Tyndale and suche other as wolde haue vs reiecte and refuse al that god hath taughte hys chirche, but yf yt be proued by scrypture: be not onely [Tiv] vnable to proue or defende that heresye/ but also do handle the scrypture yt selfe in suche a shamefull wyse, that yf other men whom they reproue dyd not handle yt better, yt hadde ben better to haue lefte all to gether vnwryten, and neuer hadde scrypture at all. And we muste nedes perceyue that wythout the bylyefe and credence geuen vnto the catholyke chyrche of Cryste we coulde be sure of nothynge, but that as saynte Paule sayth, the chirche is the pyller and strength of the trewth. And thus ende I my thyrde boke, conteynyng ys answere of hys two specyall chapyters/ the tone, whyther the worde were byfore the chyrche, or the chyrch byfore the worde/ and the tother, whyther the apostles lefte any thynge vnwryten, necessary to soule helth. In whyche two poyntes as gloryousely as he glytered in his owne yie: euery man seeth now how fowle a fall he hath/ whereby more then halfe of hys heresyes are vtterly drowned in dyrt. And now shall I (god wyllyng) in my fourth boke as sone as my tyme shall serue me/ so confute his false fayth, and so shew whyche is the chyrche: that I shall leue Tyndale neuer a chyrche for hys flokke/ but the chyrche wherof the prophete speketh, <2Odiui ecclesiam>2 <2malignantium,>2 I haue hated ye chyrche of malycyouse folke/ whyche chyrche is very proper for hym. For all that euer Tyndale wryteth, when it is well consydered: is powdered with malyce toward all good men, bothe relygyouse that lyue here in erth, & sayntes that are lyuyng in heuen. Thus endeth the thyrde boke.  The fourth boke, whyther the chyrche can erre. Tyndale. THERE is a nother question, whyther the chyrche maye erre. Whyche yf ye vnderstande of the pope and hys generacy on/is verely as harde a questyon as to aske whyther he that hath bothe hys eyes out be blynde or no, or whyther it be possible for hym that haih one legge shorter then a nother, to halte. More. WHO wolde not nowe wene that thys man had a playne clere open cause and easy to defende/ when that euyn in ys begynnyng in so few wordes, he concludeth all the mater at onys/ and that wyth ensamples so playne and euydent, that euery man muste nedys agree them to be trew? But when ye shall agayne se, that hys ensamples are no more lyghtsome, then vnlyke the mater that he resembleth them vnto/ and that he eyther of wylynesse wyll not, or for lacke of wytte can not perceyue and se the poynt that he shulde towche: then shall euery wyse man well perceyue and se, that hys solempne shewe of suche confydence in hys euyll cause, is nothynge but a playne procla- macyon made by hys owne mouth, of hys owne rebuke and shame. For here wolde I wytte what thynge Tyndale meaneth by the pope and Popys generacyon. If he meane hys carnall kynredde, or the pope and his cardynallys eyther: he then wynketh of wylynesse, and wyfl not se the marke. For he knoweth very well ys neyther of these is the thyng [aiv] that we call the chyrche, when we speke of the catho- lyke chyrche of Cryste that can not erre. If he meane by the pope and hys generacyon, all the crysten nacyons not beynge cut of nor caste out for theyr obstynate malyce, nor of wylfulnesse departyng out by sedycyouse scysmes: then seeth he ys marke at the leste Wyse. But then whyle he sayth that all these nacyons maye and hath all thys.viii. hundred yere, so entyerly fallen in to heresyes and dampnable errours, that by all thys.viii. hundred yeres laste passed vnto Luthers dayes, nor yet vnto thys daye neyther, there hath ben no one knowen congregacyon any where, wherin ys professynge of the very ryght catholyke fayth of Cryst hath bene so surely kepte, that yt myghte there be surely lerned and knowen: then I saye Tyndale ys as blynde as he that lacketh bothe hys eyes/ in that he seeth not that by thys waye he maketh our sauyoure Cryste that is very trewth to saye very false, where he sayth I am wyth you to the ende of the worlde/ & wolde make hym farre ouerseen, where he commaunded that who so wolde not here the chyrche, shulde be reputed and taken as Paynyms and Publicans/ and in many a playn texte of scrypture mo, as I haue before shewed, as well in my dyaloge as myne other thre formar bokes of this present worke, and yet hereafter shall forther. Moreouer, yf Tyndale saye that all thys knowen corps of crysten- dome, haue all these.viii. hundred yere ben in a wronge bylyefe/ where hath ben all thys whyle the ryght congregacyon of Tyndals chyrche, that hath had the trewe bylyefe? And lette hym tell vs then, whyche congregacyon it was, or where any suche is yet, of whom we maye surely lerne the trewe fayth and trewe vertues. If he saye that it hath ben amonge these, and was in thys chyrche but not of thys chyrch/ but they haue lurked there a few faythfull folke, amonge the greate many multytude of the faythlesse, and haue euer bene to the worlde and outwarde syghte of man vnknowen/ not so mych knowen as one of them to a nother, but yet very well knowen to god: to thys, besydes that yf they haue lyen all thys whyle lurkynge therin, they haue be then idolatres by theyr owne iudgemente, in image seruyce and prayeng to [ai] sayntes (yf Tyndals doctryne be the trewe faythe) and starke ypocrytes in beynge of one bylyefe in theyr hartes, and pretendyng another, both in theyr wordes and dedes/ and besyde dyuerse other inuyncyble reasons, wyth which I haue all redy re- proued that fonde opynyon in the seconde boke of my dyaloge, where vnto Tyndale hath made so bare answere that it hadde ben more wysedome for hym to haue lette it all alone and medle nothynge therwyth, as euery chylde almoste maye well perceyue that lyste to loke on them bothe, and aduysedly compare them togyder, as I shall my selfe set it forth vnto them when god shall after other thynges done gyue me tyme to come therto/ and besyde dyuers other argu- mentes euydent and playne, whyche I partely haue, partely shall alledge and brynge forth in thys present work: this one can he neuer auoyde whyle he lyueth, that god had then lefte euery man perplexed in dowte and out of certaynte, what waye he myghte surely take and cleue vnto, eyther in the doctryne of fayth or knowlege of vertuose lyuynge. For yf he saye that we nede no knowen company, but euery man maye rede the scrypture hym selfe: euery man he woteth well can not rede, nor euery man vnderstand it though he haue it in hys owne tonge/ but by the redynge wythout a reder, maye soone fall into the dampnable errour of Arrius, Heluidius, and many a nother heretyke mo/ whyche of the scrypture thorow theyr owne pryde toke occasyon of theyr heresyes. If he then saye that of that vnknowen congregacyon, we maye haue a trew reder: where shall I seke hym, and wherby shall I knowe hym/ yf I happen on hym, howe shall I be sure? For in thys great knowen congregacyon, we be saufe agaynste all suche parell. For we be all agreed vppon the necessarye artycles of the fayth. And yf any wolde preche and teche the contrary/ as he that wold percase teche that confessyon is not necessarye, and that penaunce nedeth not, and that of the.vii. sacramentes.v. serue of nought, and the syxte of almost as lytell/ and that of the seuenth all crysten nacyons be, and all thys.xv. hundred yere haue ben in a very damnable erroure: he that thus wolde preache and teche suche habomynable here[aiv]syes as nowe Tyndale doth, he maye be soone controlled, accused and corrected/ excepte he ronne awaye as Tyndale doeth. And wherby can we be sure that hys techynge whyche ys accusyd, ys false and theyrs trewe that correcte hym/ but by that we be sure that the comen fayth of the catholyke chyrch is trewe/ and that the catholyke knowen chyrche can not erre in that fayth, whych from hande to hande hath ben taken & kepte from Crystes dayes and hys apostles hytherto? Whyche fayth muste nedes be trewe by Crystes promyse made vnto hys apostles, as teachers of hys approued by myracles) so inwardly sure of the trewth, that a poore symple woman yf Tyndale and I broughte the trouth in debate and questyon, and that I were waxen so madde to graunte hym that hys false heresyes were trewe / she wold not lette to byleue and saye so to, that we were two madde folys and false heretykes bothe. And that thys is trewe shall mych the better apere when we well examyne and consyder what congregacyon Tyndale calleth the catholyke chyrche. Tyndale. I saye that Crystes electe chyrch is the hole multytude of all repentyng synners that byleue in Cryste, and put all theyr truste and confidence in the mercy of god/ felynge in theyr harte, that god for Crystes sake loueth them and wyll be or rather is mercyfull vnto them, and forgyueth them theyr synnes of whyche they repente/ and that he forgyueth them also all the mocyons vnto synne, of the whyche they fere leste they shulde therby be drawne into synne agay ie. And thys fayth they haue wythout all respecte of theyr owne deseruynges/ ye and for none other cause then that the mercyfull truth of god the father whyche can not lye, hath so promysed and so sworne. More. Nowe hath Tyndale here defyned and descrybed vs what he called the chyrche. And for as myche as hys tytell is of hys chapyter, the questyon whyther the chyrche can erre/ and that he now for the clerynge of the questyon, declareth that there be two chyrches, the tone whyche he sayth that we take for the chyrche whyche he calleth the pope and hys generacyon, and sayth that there is no dowte but that chyrche bothe maye erre and in dede so dothe/ and the tother chyrche whyche hym selfe calleth the very chyrche, ys thys ys he now defyneth: it Wold seme that he wold [aiv] afferme that thys chyrche whyche hym selfe descrybeth, were the chyrche that can not erre. Wherin what his fynall and resolute sentence is, ye shall in hys other chapyters hereafter foloWyng, at a longe length very scantly perceyue/ excepte hys wordes be somwhat opened and a lytell more clerely declared, then as it appereth by his wrytyng, hym selfe wolde they sholde be/ and nathelesse I truste they shall be. Wherfore to thende ye may the better vnderstande where about he goeth/ & that he longeth to lede vs in derkenesse, and fede vs forth wyth hys hygh solempne folyes that he wolde were not vnder- standen: let vs a lytell examyne the partys of hys dyffynycyon and descrypcyon of the chyrch. Where he sayth that Crystes electe chyrche, ys the hole multytude of all repentaunt synners, that haue the condycyons forther ex- pressed in hys descrypcyon: we must fyrst aske hym how taketh he there thys worde electe? It had ben good reason that he sholde haue declared, whyther he meane electe and chosen as our sauyour Cryste dyd electe and chose hys chyrche and congregacyon, out of the Iewis and the Gentyles, to be dedycate vnto hys seruyce/ after Whychemaner he fyrste elected and chose hys twelue apostles though they were not all fynally good, of whose eleccyon he sayd, ye haue not elected me but I haue elected you / and also sayd vnto them, Haue I not elected and chosen you twelue, and one of you is a deuyll: or ellys that he meane by the electe chyrche the chyrche of the fynall electes and predestynates to glory, beynge there vnto predestynate in the prescience and purpose of god before the creacyon of the worlde. Thys poynte whyther he meane that hys hole multytude of repent- ynge synners, be the tone electe chyrche or ys tother, hath he not expressed/ but hath lefte vs at large to gesse and arede vppon hys derke rydles after folowynge, whyche of these two eleccyons he meaneth. How be it for awght that I can se, hys descrypcyon agreeth wyth neyther of theym bothe. For as for ys fyrst kynde of eleccyon, after whych Cryste hath chosen hys catholyke chyrche out of the Iewys and Gentyls, to be hys chyrche here in erth: in thys kynde are there penytentes and im- penytentes bothe. For penitentes are accompted amonge the good / and in thys chyrche be [ai mismarked ai] there bothe good and badde, as our sauyour sheweth hym selfg in the parables bothe of the felde wyth good corne & cocle, and also the nette wyth fysshes good and badde / and the scrypture sheweth by the arch of Noe with bestes clene and vnclene/ and Cryste wyth hys aforesayde wordes to his apostles: Haue I not chosen you twelue and one of you ys a deuyll? Now as for ys electe chyrch of predestynates yf he speke therof, as it may be verifyed in euery tyme syth it began as he must yf he speke to the purpose/ then are there therin accounted not onely repentyng synners, but synners also, some yt yet repente them not, & some also ys neuer dyd the thyng wherof they shuld repente/ as was our blessed lady whyle she lyued here, and our sauyour hym selfe also for any syn of hym self For he was neuer penytent synner/ but beyng syn- lesse hym selfe, paynfully payed for ours. So is not ys electe chyrch all repentyng synners onely, except yt eyther Cryste were no man or were also a synner, or els his manhed not parte of thys chyrche, but the chyrche of predestynates hedlesse. And in this I speke of that electe chyrch of predestynates, concernyng onely the congregacyon of such as shalbe saued in the kynde of man. For as for to consyder angels therin, is very farre fro thys mater. Yet are there also in thys chyrche of electes many that neuer came to the fayth, but are yet enmyes there vnto/ as Iewes, Saracenes, or Turkes, not yet conuerted vnto ys fayth. And therfore thys electe chyrche wyll in no wyse agre wyth the dyffynycyon or descrypcyon of Tyndale. I wolde that he therfore to gyue his mater more lyght, had shewed vs as I say, which kynde of eleccyon he meaneth. ow be yt we shall gesse at hys mynde as nere as we can and make the best of hys mater / and then se whyther the beste be able to stande. He maye seme to meane by Crystes electe chyrche of hys descrypcyon, a parte of the electe chyrche of the seconde maner/ that is to wyt as many therof as be repentaunt synners wyth those other condicyons that are expressed in hys descrypcyon. For other then thys I can not deuyne what he shold meane. But then as those repentaunt synners be a parte of the chyrche predestynate/ so be they a parte of thys catholyke chyrche here mylytaunt after the fyrst kynde of eleccyon, in whych are bothe good and bad/ of whych hole nomber the good are ye tone parte. [aiv] Yet leueth he vs after thys waye in a nother dowt/ whyther the repentynge synners may afterwarde fall to synne agayne, and from repentaunce and so to repentaunce agayne, and yet agayne therfro. He leueth vs also in dowt whyther thys electe chyrche of hys descryp- cyon maye be deceyued & erre or not. For in these two poyntes he wrappeth vs vp wyth rydles, that he gyueth vs to rede in other chapy- ters how they may synne and yet synne not, erre and yet erre not/ and redeth hys rydles hym self also so fondly, that an olde wyfe wolde be ashamed to rede suche redles so folysshely by the fyre syde amonge yonge chyldren. And yet in this one poynt whyther the chyrch maye erre or not, is in effecte all the hole mater and purpose of hys boke. And fynally for all that euer he sayth / he leueth it in dowte whyther his repentaunt synners, syth he graunteth that though they maye not synne yet they maye synne, and ys in lykewyse though they can not erre yet they can erre, be of thys electe chyrche of hys descrypcyon in these tymes onely in whyche they synne not nor erre not/ or ellys in all those tymes to, in whyche they bothe synne and erre. And here speke I of suche synne as is of hys nature dedely, though the soule dye not by eternall dampnacyon therfore/ bycause he repenteth that synne agayne ere he dye. And I speke of that errour also, whyche is of hys nature synfull and damnable though the soule suffer not eternall dampnacyon therfore/ bycause he repenteth that erroure afterwarde, and retourneth agayne to the trewth ere euer hys body dye. Of all these dowtes the more parte he neuer moueth/ and suche as he moueth in other chapyters after, he so fondely soyleth, that all the worlde maye se that he nothynge seketh but corners to crepe in, where he maye luske and lurke in the derke/ out of whych we shall I truste so bryng hym in to the lyght, that hys eyen shall dase to loke theron. But in the meane whyle thys ye se, that how so euer he mene by the electe chyrche of hys repentaunte synners, with all the felyng fayth that he can frame therto: yet syth men can neuer knowe whyche be they, there can no man haue any suretye by that chyrch of the trewe doctryne of god/ no more then a man coulde by that vnknowen chyrche know whyche is the trewe scrypture of god. And therfore iS this electe chyrche of Tyndals descrypcyon deuysed onely to [ai] iugle wythall, and to deceyue our syght, and not to serue in thys mater to any substancyall purpose. But yet that it can not onely do no good, but is also dremed out by llym to do myche harme: ye shall playnely perceyue, yf ye consyder what repentaunce and what fayth he meaneth. For these wordes wyll sowne very well in the erys of such symple soules, as do not whyle they rede them consyder what maner thynges Tyndale meanet and what thynge he calleth repentaunce and byleuyng in Cryste wyth a felyng fayth. But on the tother syde/ he that consydereth that Tyndale wolde haue vs so to byleue in Cryste, that we shold set hys holy sacramentes at nought, and that we sholde byleue that all crysten people haue hytherto byleued wronge, that haue byleued that men ought to be shreuen, or receyue any penaunce at the prestes hand, or that haue byleued ys there ys any purgatory after thys present lyfe, or that put any fayth in the sacrament of the aultare, or any other thynge byleue therof then that it ys onely a sygne memoryall and token of Crystes deth and passyon, and that euery man is in a false bylyefe that w any other honour do therto then onely thys bare bylyefe/ wherof playnly foloweth that onys to knele or praye therto were open and playne idolatrye/ and that he wold haue vs also byleue that to saye the masse wyth the holy canon therin, as all crysten realmes do, and so many hundred yeres haue done were heyghnouse dedely synne/ and that it were synne also to byleue yt man by good workes wrought in fayth, any rewarde meryteth towarde god/ or fynally ys any of the olde holy doctours of Crystes chyrche, synnys Crystes dayes and hys apostles hytherto, were in ys ryght bylyefe before holy Luthers dayes and hys owne/ for sure am I that there was neuer none of all them that in bylyef dyd agre wyth these twayne, nor these twayne bytwene them selfe: he that thys felynge fayth consydereth in Tyn- dals techynge, shall soone fele that all hys holy solempne tale of all hys felynge fayth ys not worth a fly, but very faythlesse heresye. And also when he hereth hym so sayntly speke of repentynge/ and then consydereth that he wolde haue vs repent that euer we were shryuen (for shryfte he calleth the false inuencyon of Sathan) and wolde haue vs also to be such as repent that euer they were of the ryght bylefe, and such [aiv] as wolde haue freres and nonnes repente theyr relygyon and runne out and wedde togyther: he that con- sydereth thys, shall I saye se that Tyndals electe and chosen chyrche, is a chyrche of chosen heretykes, of contrary bylyefe to the chyrche of whyche saynte Hierom was a doctour, and saynt Austayne, and saynt Gregory, and saynte Ambrose, and all the other old holy fathers from the apostles dayes hytherto/ or els muste Tyndale tell vs ones agayne, some one of all theym that byleued it lawfull, for a monke or a frere professed vnto perpetuall chastyte, to runne out of relygyon and go wedde a nonne. Now am I glad yet that he cometh forth wyth repentaunce, at the leste wyse one way or other. For fayth alone was wont to do all thorow all a mannys lyfe. And when it was proued them by playne and euydent scrypture, that fayth coulde not auayle wythout cheryte/ then fell they to glose it and say, that fayth could neuer be wythout it. And then beynge therin repreued playnely by saynt poule and saynt Iamys both / yet stande they styll by theyr worde, & defende theyr wordes onely by wordes agaynst all reason, & agaynst the playne wordes of god not vnwryten whych they set not by, but the very wryten wordes in playne and euydent scryptures, for all that they saye they byleue no thynge ellys. And in that poynt I byleue them well and in more to. For where they say that they byleue nothyng but scrypture, I thynke they saye trewe/ for they byleue no thynge besyde the scrypture, nor yet the scrypture neyther, as theyr owne wrytynges do full clerely declare. But now syth they say styll that fayth alone suffyseth, and yet saye that there muste be cheryte to/ and now saye there must be repent, aunce to: they saye none other thynge in effecte, but ys it is inough to haue fayth alone yf a man haue other vertues to/ and that it suflyseth to haue fayth alone, so that fayth be not alone: for and it be alone then is it no fayth at all. Is not thys a nother goodly rydle, wherby Tyndale techeth all thynge playnely? Nor thys poynt wyll neuer be well patched wyth hys felynge fayth and hystorycall, as ye shall hereafter here when we come to the chapyter. But yet agayn in the meane whyle, bycause he speketh of repent- aunt synners, that they make the electe chyrche of Cryste: I wolde wytte of hym whyther one parte of re[ai]pentynge muste not be to repente heresyes. If not/ then Crystes electe chyrche maye kepe them styll, and be a chyrche of heretykes. And on the tother syde, yf a man muste repente hys heresyes: then aske I Tyndale agayne, how shall an vnlerned man knowe whyche they be? The preacher shall tell theym sayth Tyndale. So saye we to. But what yf ys preachers do not agre therin/ how shall he know the trewe preachers fro the false? Lette hym loke on the scrypture sayth Tyndale, and therby shall he iudge them by the ryght rule of the worde of god. But therto I saye, that, all thynge that we be bounden to byleue and obserue is not wryten in scrypture, as I haue in the thyrde boke more then playnely by the playne scrypture proued. And besydes that, vnlerned men are not able, nor euery lerned man neyther, surely to dyscerne and iudge the trewe sence of the scrypture, in a greate thynge growen in debate and con- trouersye, where playne textes of scrypture seme to speke for bothe the sydes. And therfore it muste nedes be, that there is by god prouyded and lefte some such suretye, as maye brynge vs out of all suche perplexyte. And that is as I haue sayde, hys holy spyryte sent and lefte perpetually wyth hys chyrche, to lede it so by hys owne promyse euer into all necessary trouth, that who so here and byleue hys chyrche, maye be sure that he can not be deceyued/ but that yf a false techer wold lede men out of the ryght fayth, the chyrche of Cryste shall reproue hym and condempne hym, and put the people in certentye. For whyche cause saynt Poule sayth that the chyrche is the fyrme stablysshemente and the pyller of trouth for the inuyolable suerty of doctryne. And therfore that can neuer be no chyrche but a knowen chyrche. ut then sayth Tyndale, that it is trewe that there is all suretye in the chyrche of Cryste. But he sayth that the chyrche of Cryste is onely the nomber of repentynge synners, that haue the felynge fayth whyche hym selfe descrybeth. Then we aske hym wherby shall a man knowe them, and be sure of them/ so that he maye vse them for hys sure and vndoutable iudges bytwene the two contrary preachers, of whyche the tone is trewe the tother false? It maketh no mater sayth he, though ye knowe them not. How shall I then be putte in surety by them, but yf I knowe that they be the chyrche wyth whom god promysed [aiv] to leue hys holy spyryte/ and whom he wylled euery man to here and to obay? ye shall perceyue it sayth he, by that ye se they be good men, and shewe the frewtes of fayth in theyr lyuynge. I can not be therby sure/ syth an ypocryte maye fayne them. And also hym selfe graunteth after in hys chapyter, that they synne and yet synne not/ so that though they synne not bycause of theyr felynge fayth, and theyr repentaunce folowynge: yet they maye ryght often do synne, in suche wyse that they maye do and in dede do many suche abomynable dedes, as men be hanged for and worthy for myche lesse/ and suche that them selfe shulde for the same, sauynge for theyr felynge fayth be dampned in hell perpetually / from which none hystorycall fayth could kepe them, as Tyndale sayth. Now then yf he saye trewe/ it is impossyble for me to knowe the electe chyrche of felynge faythfull repentaunte synners, to take the sure iudgement by. Then yf he walke as it were in a mase, and come to the fyrste poynte agayne, and say it forcheth not, for they shall be decerned by the scrypture it selfe: that gappe haue I so stopped all redy, that he shall stycke styll at a stake & reste hys bones in ys busshes ere euer he gete out there. Wherfore when he shall se hym self vnable to defend hys owne chosen vnknowen chyrche, in ye poynt in which it sholde specyally serue, that is for ys sure techyng of the trew fayth: he shall then fynde none other shyft, but to loke whyther he myght make the catholyke knowen chyrche to fall in the lyke defawte/ and shall aske vs how we do knowe the trew chyrch of Cryste, by whose doctryne we maye be sure of the ryght bylyefe. Where vnto we shall answere, that therin can no man be deceyued. For it is the comon knowen chyrche of all crysten people, not gone out nor caste oute. Thys hole body bothe of good and badde is the catholyke chyrche of Cryste, whyche is in thys worlde very sikely, & hath many sore membres / as hath somtyme the naturall body of a man, and some sore astonyed, and for a tyme colde and dede/ whyche yet catcheth hete and lyfe agayne, yf it be not precyded and cut of from the body. Thys catholyke knowen chyrch is that mystycall body be it neuer so syke, wherof the pryncypall hed is Cryste. Ofwhyche body whyther the successour of saynt Peter be his vycar generall and hed vnder hym, as all crysten nacyons [bi] haue now longe taken hym/ is no parte of this questyon. For to this mater it is inough, ys thys body mystycall of Cryste this catholyk chirch, is ys body ys is animated, hath lyfe spyrytuall, & is enspyred with ys holy spyryt of god ys maketh them of one fayth in the howse of god, by ledyng them in to the consent of euery necessary trouth of reueled fayth, be they in condycyons & maners neuer so syke, as longe as they be conformable & content in vnyte of fayth, to cleue vnto ys body. Of this chyrch can we not be deceyued, nor of the ryght faith can we not be deceyued whyle we cleue to this chirch/ syth this chyrch is it in to which god hath gyuen his spyryt of fayth, & in this chirch both good and bad professe one fayth. For yf any professe the con- trary fayth, be it any one man or any one countrey: they be con- trolled, noted, and reproued by the hole body & soone knowen from the body. Now yfit happen any pryuy heretykes to lurke in this body, yet all the whyle, they agre with ys body in open profession of fayth, & teche no thyng contrary/ they can not begyle vs, though they may by secrete heresyes of theyr hartes, synfully deceyue them selfe. And when they teche the contrary / then are they as I say reproued openly by ye body/ & eyther reformed & cured, or els cutte of fro the body and casten out therof So ys this chyrch is knowen well inough/ & therfore maye be well vsed as a sure iudge, for to decerne bytwene ys trew doctrine & the false, and the trew precher & false, concernyng the ryght fayth and the decernyng of the trew word of god wryten or vnwryten, from ye counterfete word of man/ and in the decernyng of ys ryght vnderstandyng of the scrypture of god, as farforth as of necessyte perteyneth vnto saluacyon. And this aduauntage yt I speke of haue we, by ts that this chyrch is knowen / where as Tyndals chosen chyrch ofrepent- yng synners we can neuer know them, but yf we se them walke in our chyrch in processyon with a candell byfore ye crosse, or stand before the pulpet with a fagot in theyr nekkes. And yet can we not know them so neyther/ for they may seme repentaunt openly, and yet thynke in theyr hartes full shrewdely, as they comenly do. Now wherby we shall be sure yt thys knowen catholyke chyrch, is ys very trew chyrch ys is to be byleued/ & that no man may be surely by- leued yt agreeth not with the fayth of this chyrche/ all be it I haue both in my dyaloge & in sondry places of my.iii. formar bokes of this present worke, well & playnly proued you: yet shall [biv] I fynally before I fynysshe thys worke by such clere open markes & tokens shew you wyth euydent reason & playne scrypture furnysshed, that no chylde shall after nede any thynge to dowte therof But now consyder in the meane whyle, that Tyndals dyffynycyon or descrypcyon of the chyrch, by whych he calleth it the nomber of all repentynge synners wyth all hys other condycyons adioyned ther- unto/ is fyrst full of darkenesse. And when it is opened it agreed neyther wyth one chyrch nor other. And yet is it by another poynt of his own false doctryne, vtterly destroyed. For he techeth playnly, that who so euer do after baptysme synne onys of purpose wyllyngly, & not onely of wekenes and infyrmyte, he shall neuer be saued / but all his repentaunce after, though he trust neuer so myche in god, & haue after neuer so sure fayth in hym, shall neuer serue hym to saluacyon but he shalbe fynally dampned as I shall shew you forther after. And then ye se playnly, that his dyffynycyon of hys electe chyrch, is by his owne doctryne destroyed. For the elect chyrch can not be the nomber of all repentyng synners yt truste to be saued in Crystes passyon, yf some suche repentyng synners shall neuer be saued by hys passyon as Tyndale playnly lyeth. And therfore syth he hath fayled of his dyffynycyon of the chyrche, and therby loste and spylled afl hys purpose: lette vs now consyder whyther he handle any more wysely the remanaunt of hys goodly mater. Tyndale. Thys fayth haue they wythout all respecte of theyr owne deseruynges/ ye and for none other cause, then that the mercyfull trewth of god the father whyche can not lye, hath so promysed and so sworne. More. I dowte not good reders but ye remember well, that all the doc- tryne of Cryster chyrche is full of warnynge, that no man sholde put a prowde truste and confydence in hys owne wurkes, nor onys thynke that he can of hym selfe a lone without goddes gracious helpe, do any good wurke at all/ and greate cause hath to fere and mystruste all hys owne workes, for vnperfyte cyrcumstaunces seldom perceyued by hym selfe. And also that in all that a man maye do he doth but hys onely dewtye/ and that the beste worke were noughte worth to heuenwarde of the nature of the worke yt selfe, ne were it for the lyberall goodnes of god, ys [bi] lysteth so hyghly to rewarde it/ and yet wolde not rewarde it so, sauynge for the passyon of hys owne sonne. All these thynges and many suche other mo be so dayly taught and preched in the chyrche/ that I truste in good fayth that almoste euery good olde wyfe can tell them. And therfore it appereth well that Tyndale varyeth not wyth vs for so farre/ but that he meaneth a farre forther thynge, where he sayth that the electe chyrche trusteth so vtterly to be forgeuyn a11 synne & mocyons vnto synne, wythout any respecte of theyr owne deseruyng/ & playnely meaneth therin (as in other places also he playnely declareth hym selfe, whyche I haue in my formar bokes proued and reproued) not onely that men shold not nede, but also that it were synne to go about any good wurke wroughte wyth grace in fayth, to deserue any thyng toward the gettynge of full and perfayt forgeuenes. To thys poynte cometh Tyndals holy felynge fayth, that feleth alwaye full forgyuenesse, wythout any regard or respecte of mannys owne endeuour to deserue it. Thys false felynge fayth hath Tyndale taken of Luther/ when he and all the rable of theyr secte saye, that fayth of necessyte bryngeth forth good wurkes, as the frute of the tree of faith. And yet they say ys good wurkes be nought worth and therby make they ys tre of fayth lytell better. For what good tre can yt be, wherof ys good frute is noughte worth? But Tyndale and Luther bothe lye lowde in bothe the poyntes. For bothe maye a man haue the ryght fayth idle and workelesse, and therfore dede and frutelesse. Dede I saye, not in the nature and substaunce of bylyefe & fayth / but dede as to the attaynyng of saluacyon. And also good wurkes wrought in fayth, hope, and cheryte, be very profyt- able towarde obtaynynge of forgyuenesse and getynge reward in heuyn/ excepte ys scrypture of god be false, when it sayth that as the water quencheth fyre, so doth almoyse dede auoyde synne/ and except our sauyour hym selfe saye false, where he sayth, Gyue your superfluouse substaunce in almoyse, and then lo are ye all clene. And in lyke wyse where he promyseth rewarde in heuen in sondry playne places of scrypture, for good wurkes done here in erth. Now yf Tyndale answere, that the good workes be no thynge worth of them selfe, nor wythout fayth, as he answereth me in his answere to ys thyrd boke of my dyaloge: [biv] then maye euery chylde se that he is dreuen to the harde wall, & fayne to seke a shamfull shyfte. For what thynge is awght worth of yt selfe to heuenward, without goddes grace and the greate goodnesse of god? No fyry cheryte, though men wolde burne for goddes sake, coude deserue heuen of yt selfe wythout the lyberall goodnesse of god. For as saynt poule sayth, the passyons ofthys worlde be not worthy to wynne the glory to come, that shalbe shewed vppon vs. And yf he saye that good workes be nought worth, bycause they be nought worth without fayth/ so myght he as well saye ys fayth were nought worth, bycause it is nought worth wythout cheryte. So that ye maye playnely se that he seketh nothynge but shyftes/ whyche wyll yet serue of nought when he hath all together done. For ye maye fynally perceyue, that though euery man maye well fere that the workes which hym selfe hath done semed they neuer so good, were yet for some lacke vppon hys parte in ye doynge, so vnperfyt in the depe secret syght of god, that they were vnworthy to serue hym or be any thynge rewarded / and also that were they neuer so pure & perfyt, they were not yet worthy suche rewarde but of goddes lyberall goodnesse: yet is it a very false fayth and a pestylent heresye, to byleue as Tyndale here techeth vs, yt god wyll saue suche as maye worke wythout any respecte or regarde vnto theyr deseruynge / as though he rought not whyther they dyd good or yll, but wyll saue all suche as hym lyste do they what they lyste, onely bycause hym lyste/ and that hym selfe so lysteth for none other cause, but onely bycause he hath so promysed and sworen. For surely, neyther is the promyse the cause as I haue in myne other boke shewed/ but ys goodnesse of god whych caused hym so to promyse. Nor also he hath not so sworne nor so promysed neyther, that he wyll saue man wythout any regarde of good wurkes/ but hath bothe promysed & sworne the clene contrary, at but yfwe wurke well yfwe maye, or repent that we dyd not and be in purpose to do/ ellys shall our fayth stande vs in lytell stede, but greately aggreue and encrease the payne of our dampnacyon. And now that hys fayth is proued very playne false and faythlesse/ it is a worlde to se how ryally he runneth forth in the prayse, as though it were proued trew. [bi] Tyndale. And thys fayth and knowlege is euerlastynge lyfe/ and by thys we be borne a newe, and made the sonnes of god, and obteyne forgyue- nesse of synnes, and are translated from deth to lyfe, and from the wrath of god vnto hys loue and fauour. And thys fayth is the mother of all trouth, and bryngeth wyth her the spyryte of all truth/ whyche spyryte purgeth vs as from all synne, euyn so from all lyes and errour noysome and hurtfull. And thys fayth is ihe fundacyon layde of the apostles and prophetes, whereon Paull sayth Ephe. 2. that we are bylte, and therby of the howseholde of god. And thys fayth is ihe rocke wheron Cryste bylte hys congregacyon. More. Lo what a prayse he hath made you of thys fayth, that feleth that folke sholde nede to do no good workes. How he calleth it euer- lastyng lyfe, to come to the bare knowlege of that fayth that shall take away from vs all respecte and regarde of deseruynge any rewarde or thanke, the rather for any good wurkes. For yf men myght haue any suche respecte/ then were it greate parell leste men wolde fall the more to do them. For other greate parell I se none, consyderynge ys we be well taught to put no proude confydence in them, but referre all the thanke of them to god by whose helpe and grace we do them. Now wote ye well that no good man can deny, but that for lacke of suche wurkes men shall be dampned as Cryst sayth hym selfe in the gospell. And harde it were that the good nature of god beynge more redy to rewarde then to punysshe/ wolde punysshe vs for the lackynge, and not rewarde vs for the hauynge / namely syth hym selfe sayth in the same gospell, that he shall gyue men heuen for theyr almoyse ded. But Tyndale as he denyeth the tone, so denyeth he the tother to, and wyth some fonde glose wyll auoyde the gospell and all/ and then goo boldely forth wyth hys fayth & boste it, and saye thys fayth and knowlege is euerlastynge lyfe. But all faythfull folke wyll saye agayne, thys fayth and knowlege ys euerlastynge deth. For thys fayth hath Luther and frere Huskyn bothe, and yet be farre from euer- lastynge lyfe. For bysyde that abomynable heresye it selfe, agaynste all regarde of good wurkes/ they be not agreed in bylyefe concern- ynge the sacrament of the awter/ the tone byleuynge it to be very brede, the tother no thyng [biv] ellys but brede, and false bothe twayne. And Tyndale foloweth the falser of them bothe. And so thys fayth delyuereth them not fro lyes, besydes yt they bothe and Tyndale wyth them, do byleue yf they lye not, that it is lawfull for monkes & freres to breke theyr vowed chastyte and runne out and wedde nonnes. Whyche poynt of false fayth, ys no parte of the fundacyon that the apostles byelded vppon/ but saynt Poule preched the con- trary, sayeng that vowed wydowes wyl- lynge to wedde shold haue dampnacyon/ bycause they had frustrated and broken theyr formar fayth, that is to wytte theyr fayth gyuen to god in theyr vowe of abstynence from all carnall knowlege of man/ agaynste whyche fayth they wolde now wedde, and geue a seconde fayth vnto man in maryage. But now goth Tindale forth wyth hys tale, & wolde seme to proue it trew by scrypture. Tyndale. Cryste asked hys apostles Matth. 17. whom they toke hym for. And Peter answered for them all sayenge, I say that thou arte Cryste the sonne of the lyuynge god, that arte come in to thys worlde.That is, we byleue that thou arte he that was promysed vnto Abraham, shulde come and blesse vs and delyuer vs. How beit Peter yet wyste not by what meanes/ but now it is opened thorow out all the world, that thorow the offeryng of his body and blode. More. Here is it necessary that euery wyse reder marke well & consyder, the cause and purpose of Tyndale, in bryngyng in thys confessyon of saynt Peters fayth/ where he sayde thou arte Cryste the sonne of the lyuynge god, that arte comen into thys worlde. Ye shall vnderstande that Tyndale and hys mayster Marten and hys felowys, for as myche as they be fallen from the ryght bylyef in many great artycles of our fayth/ and consyderynge that wyth such slender prouys as Tyndale bryngeth for hys parte, and therto so playnely reprvueth, euery good crysten man yt any care hath of hys owne soule wylbe sore afrayed to put it in iuperdye of dampnacyon by fallynge in any poynt from the fayth of Crystes hole catholyke chyrche, for the worde of a fonde wedded frere or any fonde felow of hys: he deuyseth here to take a waye that fere, and to make men byleue at the leste wyse, that so a man byleue the thynge that Peter then confessed/ [bi] it suffyseth ynough for saluacyon, though he byleue no forther artycles besyde. And thus farre suffyseth for hym, to make folke the lesse aferde to draw towarde hym. But bryngy=nge vs onys so farre forward/ then wyll he forther for his purpose say, that not onely no man is bounden vppon damnacyon to byleue any more, but that forther it is dampnable in some thynges to byleue more/ and that in some thynges it neyther auayleth nor hurteth to byleue any more. And therfore it is wysdome to stay well our selfe in the begynnynge. For Tyndale sayth, as I haue in my fyrste boke shewed you, many thynges agaynst dyuerse ofthe sacramentes, whych he sayth is dedely synne to byleue. And here he putteth for fayth inough, the fayth that saynt Peter confessed. And in hys chapyter answered in my thyrd boke of thys worke, whyther the apostles lefte any thynge vnwryten that were necessary to saluacyon/ there sayth he that to byleue or not byleue the assumpcyon of our lady or her perpetuall virginyte and many suche other mo, is but a bylyefe of an hystorey and nothynge doth perteyne vnto saluacyon. And hereafter in his other chapyter, how a crysten man can not erre and how he maye yet erre/ in that chapyter he sayth that the very crysten men can not erre in any thynge that sholde be agaynst the promyses whyche are in Cryste / and in other thynges theyr errours be not vnto dampnacyon, though they be neuer so greate. Wherof he by and by putteth ensample of the perpetuall vyrginyte of our lady/ in the not bylyefe wherof he sayth that a man beynge ledde of ignoraunce by the wordes of the gospell, to byleue that she Were no a perpetuall vyrgyne, myght in case for lacke of the contrary techynge dye in that mysse bylyefe and yet take none harme therby, bycause it hurteth not the redemcyon that is in Crystes bloude. For though she had none but Cryste,2>u <2the more saued, neytheryet the lesse though she had had/ and in suche lyke an>2 <2hundreth that plukketh not a mannes fayth from Cryste, the myghte erre and>2 <2yet be neuer the lesse saued, though the contrary were wryten in the gospell>2 Lo here haue I welbeloued readers, no thynge letted partely to repete agayne hys wordes wryten in hys other chapyter before, partely wordes of hys I haue out of bothe places taken into this/ to the entent that all [biv] be it I partely haue and partely shall, touch them in theyr owne proper places: yet ye sholde se the hole somme and effecte of thys tale concernynge the fayth byfore your face layed to gether. Whyche he draweth in peces and pulleth into sondry partes/ bycause he wolde by hys wyll fayne stele awaye from vs in the darke, and leue vs wythout any playne perceyuynge of hys vngracyous mynde. But now that I haue layed in effecte all hys hole opynyon together as towchynge the fayth (sauyng hys onely dyfference and dyuysyon of hystorycall fayth and felynge fayth, which I shall reserue vnto hys proper place) I shall a lytell examyne thys fayth of his, that ye may loke theron in the lyght, and se whyther it be suffycyent for your saluacyon or not. Fyrste in thys fayth that saynt Peter confessed is neuer a worde of purgatory. Now dowte I not but that Tyndale when he redeth thys worde, wyll well and merely laugh therat, and saye no more there nedeth. For that fayth wyll he saye wyll put out and quenche the fyre of purgatory clene. Then wyll we aske hym how wyll he laugh at the fyre of hell/ for of that fyre is there no thynge spoken in that confessyon neyther, but that he myghte for all that confessyon wene well inough that there were none hell. If Tyndale wyll saye nay/ for he muste nedes byleue that the thynge from whyche Cryste the sonne of the lyuynge god was comen into the worlde to redeme mankynde, muste nedes be hell/ and that therfore Peters confessyon includeth of necessyte ys bylyefe of hell: I answere Tyndale agayne that therin was no necessyte For Peter myghte byleue at that tyme for any worde that was in hys con- fessyon, that Crystes comynge was onely to redeme vs not from hell but from the losse of heuyn / from whyche he myght thynke per aduenture that all mankynde were bannysshed vnto suche a place as was <2Limbus patrum>2 though out of payne, yet suspyrynge and syghynge after the syghte of god and ioy of heuen/ and into suche estate as chyldren lyue in that dye vnbaptysed. Whyche though they entre not heuyn, bycause they dye the chyldren of wrath vnreconcyled: yet the mercy- full anger of god dreueth them not downe into sensyble payne and to the felynge of the infernall fyre. Thys fayth myghte peraduenture saynte Peter haue, [ci] for any thynge spoken of in his confessed fayth/ ye and myghte haue ther- wyth also a bylyefe, that for actuall synnes men were punysshed after thys lyfe some lesse whyle some lenger, and yet none euerlastyngly/ but euery man at length brought vnto peace and reste though neuer no man to the blesse of heuen, but onely by crystes commyng. And thus myghte saynte Peter haue rather a bylyefe of purgatory then of hell, for any worde mencyoned in hys confessyon, wherin he con- fesseth not the bylyefe of eyther other. Saynte Peter also nothynge there confessed of Crystes passyon, descencyon into hell, resurreccyon, nor of hys ascensyon / whyche thynges be not onely pryncypall poyntes of our fayth, but also some such as goddes promyse specyally dependeth vppon. Vnto whyche promyses Tyndale restrayneth all our necessary fayth. How be it of trouth Tyndale restrayneth it therin to sore. For then we be not bounden to byleue that the holy goste were equale with vs father and the sonne, for yt was no promyse made vnto vs And yet are we bounden to byleue that trewth, wherof is also no thynge spoken in Peters confessed fayth. Therfore yt wyll be very harde (yf impossyble be hard) for Tyndal to sustayne that the fayth whyche saynte Peter confessed than, were suffycyent to serue euery crysten man now. And therfore lette no man take any boldenesse vppon Tyndales tale, to thynke as he wolde haue hym, that onely the thynge that Peter there confessed were inough now to byleue/ and that in all other thynges that the chyrc byleueth, whyche Cryste and hys holy spyryte haue taught hys chyrch synnes, were but thynges indyfferent, & no thyng forced whyther they were byleued or not. Tyndale shall be constrayned to come to thys euyn by hys owne wordes, all be it that he affermeth for faste and sure somewhat more then he maye make good. For he sayth that Peter ment by his wordes/ we byleue that thou arte he that was promysed vnto Abraam, sholde come and blesse vs and delyuer vs. And yet he sayth, Peter wyste not by what meanes Cryste sholde delyuer vs. But nowe it is open he sayth thorow out all the worlde, that thorow the offerynge of hys body and bloude. Now yf Peter at that tyme knewe not the thynge that muste now nedes be byleued, vppon payne of damnacion: [civ] ye maye therby se that the fayth whyche Peter confessed then, is not inough now for euery man to be saued by/ but we be bounden to the bylyefe also of such thynges as god hath reueled and made open to be byleued vnto hys chyrche any tyme synnes. Or ellys muste Tyndale tell vs at what tyme god bade ho, and paue vs leue to byleue hym no ferther, what so euer he wolde ferther saye to vs. Consyder yet also that Tyndale agreeth, that the very trew crysten of hys electe vnknowen chyrche/ do byleue the artycle of the per- petuall vyrginyte of our lady as soon as they be taught it, and know- ledge theyr formar errour/ wherby he graunteth that he whyche doth not so is none of the electes. Then saye I that theruppon it foloweth by hys owne wordes, that the artycle of the perpetuall virginyte of our lady is a necessary artycle of our fayth. And thus alwaye muste Tyndale vppon hys owne wordes, confesse that all the artycles reueled ferther by Cryste vnto hys chyrche, muste be byleued as fermely as the fayth that was by Peter confessed/ or ellys we be not onely dyscharged of the bylyefe of our ladyes per- petuall vyrginyte, whyche Tyndale is now yet broughte vnware to graunte for an artycle necessary syth it is now taugllt and knowen/ but also of the bylyefe of Crystes deth, descencyon, resurreccyon, ascencyon, and of the godhed of the holy goste, wyth dyuerse other necessary poyntes mo. But here it is to be consydered, that saynte Peter in confessynge Cryste to be the sonne of the lyuynge god/ dyd confesse the very Poynte wheruppon all the hole fayth hangeth. For in that poynte alone he confesseth that all hys doctryne muste nedes be byleued for trew, and all hys commaundeinentes fulfylled. And theruppon it foloweth ferther, that syth Tyndale wyll byleue no more of hys doctryne then he can fynde wryten in the scrypture, where as the scrypture it selfe sayth that all was neuer wryten/ nor wyll not also byleue and obaye Crystes chyrch accordyng to Crystes com- maundement/ nor wyll not so myche as knowe it, but fondely frameth an vn- knowen, whom he for lacke of knowledge can neyther byleue nor obaye: yt foloweth I saye that Tyndale byleueth no pece of the fayth that saynte Peter confessed. And so he doth but pratle and prate of felynge fayth, wythout the felynge of any fayth at all, or any trewe bylyefe hystorycall or other. [ci] And yet goth he forth in the boste of that artycle of the fayth, whiche as hym selfe confesseth was out of Peter his confessyon. For he sayth that saynt Peter was not ware of Crystes passyon when he made that confessyon. Tyndale. That offerynge of Crystes body and bloude, is a satisfaccyo, for the synne of all that repente, and a purchasynge of what so euer they can aske to kepe them in fauour, and that they synne no more. More. Treuth is it that the passyon of Cryste and offerynge vp of hym selfe vnto father vppon the crosse, is a satysfaccyon for the synne of all that repente/ so that we repente a ryght and effectually, by confessyon, contrycyon, and by penytencyall dedes/ reuengynge our synnes vppon our selfe wyth good workes of cheryte, ys more largely encreaced towarde our neyghbours, doynge frutefull penaunce, bryngynge forth the frutes of penaunce, and accordynge to the coun- sayle of saynt Iohan Baptyst, not sleyght frutes, symple, and syngle, but frutes good, greate, and worthy/ and yet not of them selfe worthy, but suche as the satysfaccyon of Cryste maketh worthy, wythout whyche we coude no thynge satysfye/ but wyth whyche we maye, syth hys pleasure is that we so sholde, and not so take his deth for so full satysfaccyon of all to gether, that we sholde therfore be carelesse and slouthfull to do any penaunce our selfe for our owne synne. Tyndale wyll saye to thys that he can be content, that we sholde do good dedes but not by waye of penaunce for our synne/ and that we sholde somtyme fast and otherwyse afflycte our fleshe, to the en- tent to tame our fleshe agaynst the synne to come/ but nothynge to punyshe it the more for any synne that is paste. Now is thys teachynge of Tyndale myche lyke, as thoughe he wolde aduyse vs, be neuer the better bycause thou haste be noughte, do neuer the better bycause thou haste done euyll, runne neuer ys faster forth in vertue, bycause thou haste longe sytten styll in synne. But saynt Poule agaynst Tyndals doctrine, ran forth the faste bycause he began later, and toke the more payne for the fayth, by- cause he had ben a persecutour of ys fayth. And though he neuer thought thus, yf I hadde ben soner [civ] conuerted I wolde haue done lesse good: yet had he thys mynde, that bycause he began so late he wold do ys more/ & bycause he had ben bad, he wolde be the better/ as hym self counsayleth other, as ye haue exhybyted and gyuen your membres to serue vnclennes and iniquyte, from iniquite to iniquite / so now agayne exhibyte and gyue your membres to serue ryghteousnes, that ye maye be sanctyfyed. Tyndale. And Cryste answered uppon thus rocke I wyll byelde my congre- gacyon/ that is vppon thys fayth. And agaynst the rocke of this fayth, can no synne, no hell, no deuyll, no lyes, none errour preuayle. For what so euer any man hath commytted/ yf he repente and come to thys rocke he is safe. And that thys fayih is the onely waye by the whyehe the chyrche goeth vnto god, and vnto the enherytaunce of all hysrychesse/ testyfye all the apostles and prophetes, and all the scrypture wyth sygnes and myracles, and all the bloud of martyrs. And who so euer go to god and to forgyuenesse of synnes or saluacyon by any other way then thys/ ihe same is an heretyke out of the ryghte waye, and not of Crystes chyrche. More. Lo these wordes of Tyndale seme very gaye and gloryouse. But when ye shall well examyne them/ as gaye as the hed glytereth wyth the pretexte of Crystes owne holy wordes, yet shall ye fynde the tayle of hys tale as poysened as any serpent. For where he hosteth and sayth, <2Agaynst the rocke of this fayth can no synne, no hell, no deuyll, no lyes, nor >2 <2none errour preuayle/ for what so euer synne any man hath commytted, yf he>2 <2repent and come to thys rocke he is safe:>2 ye maye not forgete that he meaneth all way, that he whyche repenteth and cometh to the rocke of thys fayth is safe for all hys synnes, wythout confessyon or any endeuour thorow good workes towarde satysfaccyon/ and so hys hole tale is a false heresye. Ye shall also consyder that hys tale hangeth euyll to gether/ and the wordes by whyche he proueth that agaynste the rocke of thys fayth, there can no synne, nor no deuyll, nor none errour, preuayle, do not proue that poynte no thynge at all. For though it were trewe that he sayth, that what so euer synne a man haue commytted, yf he repente & come to the rocke of thys fayth he is saufe: yet myght the deuyll preuayle agaynst the rocke of yt fayth/ syth it myght be that the deuyll myght brynge a man hauyng that fayth in to a dedely synne that he sholde happely neuer repente. And therfore yf Tyndale wyll bost that the deuyll can not [ci] in any person preuayle agaynste the rocke of that fayth/ but that the rocke of that fayth shall saue any man ys onys geteth vp theron: he maye not set If nor And therunto/ but he must tell vs then, that eyther who so stande vppon that rocke shall not synne at all, or ellys that he shall be sure to repente hys synne, or fynally that synne he neuer so faste he shall be saufe inough whether he repente or not. For ellys may the deuyll preuayle agaynst ys rocke of that fayth, by bryngynge a man that standeth on it in to mortall synne whyche he shall neuer repent. In lyke wyse where he sayth that none errour can preuayle agaynst ye rocke of this fayth, that saynt Peter there confessed: I wolde fayne wyt whyther he meane that who so euer onys byleue it, can neuer fall fro that bylyefe, nor by any errour byleue the contrary/ or els that a man maye fall fro it by errour/ but then yf he repente and returne agayne therto he shall be saufe. If he meane in the fyrst maner, he muste then put away his If/ and not saye yf he repente hys errour and retourne agayne to the rocke of that fayth, then he shall be saufe/ for as mych as by that meanyng he shall neuer fall in errour, and therfore shall neuer nede to repente. But then muste he proue vs by scrypture that pryuylege gyuen of god to euery man that hath onys goten that fayth/ whych poynt he shall neuer proue whyle he lyueth, but that a man that hath it, maye by hys owne defaut, malyce, or neclygence, eyther at the instygacyon of the deuyll, or of suche here- tykes as are warse then the deuyll, fall agayne therfro/ as many hath done ere thys, that onys byleued full ryght, tyll the spyryte of pryde, enuy, and malyce, blowen into theyr hartes by the deuyll or the deuyls instrumentes, haue brought them in to the wronge. Now yf he meane in the secunde maner, that is to saye that a man whyche hath that fayth may fall therfro/ but for all that the gatys of hell can not preuayle agaynst any man that onys hath it, bycause he that falleth from it shall be saufe yf he repente hys errour and retourne agayn to it: yf he meane thus he sayth nothynge to purpose, excepte he saye whyche he shall neuer proue, that who so haue it and fall from it, shall be sure that he shall repente and retourne agayne/ for ellys the gates of hell may preuayle agaynste hym for lacke of repentynge and retournynge. And then yet forther, yf he saye whyche he shall neuer [civ] proue that who so euer onys haue that fayth, yf he fall from it shall be sure to repente and retourne agayne and so shall be saufe by repentynge: he muste then as I sayde before put awaye hys If/ and not say yf he repente, but he muste saye boldely that he surely shall repente and retourne, and so by repentynge and fayth be saued. And thus good reders ye se that thys man fareth as one that walked barefote vppon a felde full of thornys, that woteth not where to trede. I wolde be very loth to myssetake hym, or wyllyngly to lette passe and dyssymule any sense that he myghte meane in hys owne wordes, by whyche hys sayenge myght be saued and be borne. But in good fayth, I se no ferther thyng that he myght possyble meane in hys wordes, ys hell gates shall not preuayle agaynst the roche of that fayth, but this that I haue all redy shewed you/ syth he meneth it of euery man, that hell gates shall not preuayle agaynst ys rocke of that fayth in any man/ excepte he wolde meane that a man may fall frorn that fayth, and neuer after repente nor turne agayne/ but yet the gates of hell can not preuayle agaynste the rocke of that fayth, by- cause a man can not synne all the whyle he kepeth that fayth. And yf he meane so/ yet sayth he then as false as any thyng can be false. For saynt Poule sayth playnely, that he maye kepe fayth and yet tall from cheryte. Whyche thyng yf Tyndale glose and say, that then hys fayth is dede, & a dede fayth is no fayth/ and that therfore whyle he kepeth fayth he can not synne, bycause that when he synneth he kylleth hys fayth: I answere that though fayth by synne wax dede, it waxeth not dede in the nature of fayth or bylyefe/ no more then ys soule that dyeth by dedely synne, waxeth dede in ye nature of the soule, but is a quycke soule styll as he was before, though he be oute of grace/ as the dede fayth is out of the lyuely workes of cheryte, and is as saynt Poule sayed of wanton wydowes, that the wydow which lyueth in delyces is dede euen whyle she lyueth. But now yf he meane but so, that fayth is so stronge of it selfe for our saluacyon, that synne nor errour can not preuayle agaynste it, bycause fayth wyll alwaye preuayle agaynste them tyll some of them entre in and kyll it: thys were a goodly boste of hym to saye, that the chyrch be none but electes, and all that be electes haue the ryght bylyefe [ci] whyche saynt Peter confessed/ and they maye be bolde and sure that they whyche haue that fayth be goddes electes, and in hys fauour, and euer shalbe by reason of that fayth. For Cryste sayed that vppon the rocke, that is to wyt vppon that fayth he wolde byelde hys chyrch, & that agaynst the rocke of this fayth the gates of hell shall not preuayle, that is to saye agaynste this fayth can no synne, no hell, no deuyll, no lyes, no errour preuayle/ for there shall no synne nor no errour preuayle agaynste thys fayth but yf it kyll thys fayth. Tyndale to put a man in suerty of heuen by ye strength of fayth, in thys facyon that none errour shall preuayle agaynste fayth, as longe as the fayth preuayleth agaynste it, nor tyll the fayth be the febler and be ouercomen and kylled: doth myche lyke as though he wolde saye to you, be bolde I warraunt you & fere no deth, for you haue lyfe in you/ & as longe as your lyfe lasteth you can neuer be dede/ and lyke wyse as longe as ye kepe the trew fayth ye can neuer be false heretykes/ nor as longe as ye stande styll in the state ofsaluacyon ye can neuer be dampned. Here were a goodly tale were it not? And syth that neyther thys may serue hym nor any that I haue towched before/ and vtterly I can not diuine what he myghte mene ellys, takynge the waye ys he taketh, in swaruyng fro the knowen catholyke chyrche vnto hys vnknowen chyrche of electes, whom he calleth all repentaunt synners that by- leue the fayth that saynt Peter confessed: I can not perceyue nor I trowe no man ellys, but that hys wordes wyll euyll stande to gether. And yet when he hath thus wysely handeled it/ then as though the mater were well and suffycyently proued, goth he forth wyth the boste and sayth. Tyndale. That thys fayth is the onely waye, by the whyche the chyrche of Cryste goth vnto god, and vnto the enherytaunce of all rychesse/ testyfye all the apostles, and prophetes, and all the scrypture, wyth sygnes and myracles, and all the bloude of martyrs. And who so euer goth vnto god and forgyuenesse of synnes or saluacyon, by any other way then thys/ the sarne is an heretyke out of the ryght waye and not of Crystes chyrche. More. Lo here be lusty hyghe wordes eyther false or ellys of lytell effecte. For yf he meane that no man may go to saluacyon by any other thynge, wythout thys fayth that saynte [civ] Peter professed/ then be they trew. But then are they to no purpose spoken, nor haue no place in thys mater, in which he reproueth the knowen chyrch, in that they go by confessyon, contrycyon, workes of penaunce, & workes of mercy, towarde the remyssyon of the dette of theyr payne and satysfaccyon. For hym selfe can not saye naye, but that we do all agre that wyth all that euer we can do, we can not gete forth one ynche to heuen- ward, without the fayth that saynt Peter confessed. Now yf he meane not that waye, but that we be playne heretykes and oute of Crystes chyrche, yf hauynge that fayth that saynte Peter confessed, we go to heuenwarde wyth any other thyng bysyde that testyfye all the apostles and prophetes, and all the scrypture and Sygnes and myracles, & all the bloude of martyrs: then Tyndale is a starke heretyke in so sayenge. For all these wyll testyfye, that we muste byleue many thynges more then saynte Peter dyde there con- fesse / or ellys we shall not onely be dyscharged of byleuynge the sacramentes of penaunce, confyrmacyon, extreme vnccyon, order, and matrymony/ but baptysme also and the sacrament of the aulter to. For of none of all these dyd saynt Peter make any mencion in his confessyon there/ nor so myche as of Crystes deth neyther, wherof as Tyndale sayth he had at that tyme no knowlege. So that in Tyn- dales affermynge that the onely fayth there by Peter confessed, is suffycyent and the onely waye to heuyn: we shall haue Tyndale hym selfe to testyfye yt Tyndale hym selfe sayth vntrewe. Yet wolde I fayne in good fayth fynde and brynge it forth, yf I coulde any thyng ymagine, that he myght seme to mene ryght/ nor neuer wyll I wyttyngly for the preferment of my part, construe myne aduersaryes wordes wrong. And therfore, what yf we myghte vnder- stande Tyndale thus, as though he ment that the fayth there con- fessed by Peter is for euery man suffycient/ bycause that who so byleue that Cryste is the sonne of the lyuynge god, it can not be but that he shall byleue also that he is trewe in all hys wordes/ and ther- fore he that so byleueth can not fayle to byleue therwyth/ all that euer Cryst shall teche hym. All be it that thys wyll not very fully serue hym, and also hym selfe speketh no thynge of it: yet is this as helpe me god the best glose that I can deuyse for hym. But now [di] doth hym selfe caste awaye thys defence/ when he sayth in the seconde chapyter folowynge, that there is none errour noysome, but yf it be agaynste the promyses/ so that in all other thynges he graunteth and affermeth playnely by expresse wordes yt a man may erre wythout any parell, euyn though that the trouth contrary to hys errour be wryten in holy scrypture, whyche is a meruelouse worde in myne ere. For by thys ye may se, that he agreeth that a man may byleue yt Cryst is goddes sonne, & yet byleue the contrary of some thynges that Cryste shall tell hym, though he tell it hym in scrypture. And therfore he wyll ye se well none of my glose, bycause he wyll not stande in my daynger for it. And in dede, all be it hym selfe shall for hym selfe neuer fynde a better/ yet myne wyll not suffycyently serue hym neyther. For a man myght byleue that Cryste were goddes sonne, and therby byleue also all that Cryste wolde teche hym. But yet myghte it be that he wolde byleue no more, then those thynges onely that Cryste wolde teche hym personally present wyth hym by his owne mouth. For though he byleued that Cryste were goddes sonne, and wolde byleue therfore all that he wolde tell hym: yet myghte he for all that mystruste and not byleue all other men, that wolde eyther in word or wrytyng tell hym a tale as tolde to them by Crystes owne mouth. Ye & this myght he do, all though they preued it wyth myracles/ yf he were of Tyndals stomake, that can as the Iewys coulde, ascrybe goddes myracles to Belza- bub, and call goddes hygh meruelouse workes illusyons and wonders of the deuyll/ as he calleth all the myracles wrought by god in hys chyrche synnes the apostles dayes. Thys myghte one do that byleued Cryste to be goddes sonne, and to haue redemed vs also by his bloud. And this doth in dede both Tyndale & Marten hys mayster, which byleue of Crystes wordes no more then is wryten/ nor of the wryten wordes no more then they lyste/ and the remanaunt but as they lyste, syth they draw them to what sense they lyste, agaynste all the olde holy doctours, and all the chyrche of Cryst. And thus it appereth ys neyther my glose nor any glose ellys, can saue Tyndals tale from playne pestylent heresye / bothe in that he sayth there nedeth no more to be byleued, and also in that he sayth that the bylyefe alone is suffycyente for saluacyon/ and that yt [div] is heresye to saye that bysyde the bylyefe, any man vnto saluacyon shold nede any thynge ellys. For though he put in for shame repentaunce therunto, wyth Iffes as ye se: yet shall ye per. ceyue as well in hys chapyters folowynge, as in thys same chapyter after, that he putteth fayth alone for suffycyent, and repentaunce as a shadowe that neuer can but folowe it. And yet all hys thynges euer so darkely, that he wolde fayne leue hym selfe some startynge hole. But surely yt ys harde for hym to starte out fro these playne wordes of hys owne: <2who so euer go to god by any other waye, then thysfayth that>2 <2saynte Peter confessed/ the same is an heretyke out of the ryght waye, and not >2 <2of Crystes chyrche.>2 For thys is no more to saye, but who so euer bysyde the bare bylyefe, wyth as bare repentynge, adde confessyon, or for synne punysshe hym selfe by penaunce, or doth the better after by- cause he hath done euyll byfore, and hopeth that god shall eyther rewarde hym the more, or haue the more mercy on hym, or in purgatory punysshe hym the lesse: he is a starke heretyke. And of trouth so he is in dede yf thys false tale be trewe/ and all trewe men, and all holy sayntes, and all holy scrypture false. But now gothe he forthe, not in the profe but in the prayse, and sayth. Tyndale. For thys knowlege maketh me a man of the chyrche. More. Whyche knowledge? the knowledge that a man nedeth no mo artycles in hys fayth now, then saynt Peter confesseth then? and that he maye not bysyde repentaunce and bylyefe, vse any other waye to heuen/ that is to wytte he maye not therwythall, vse as a waye to heuen or to remyssyon, any sacramentall shryfte, or penytencyall Workes, or dedes of cheryte towarde satysfaccyon? The knowledge of thys fayth maketh Tyndale a man of the chyrche as lie sayth. But of whyche chyrche trowe ye? truely not of the chyrch of Cryste, whych bysyde that fayth hath instytuted ye fayth in his blessed sacramentes dyuers other artycles besyde/ & which hath playnely declared ys all be it ys knowlege of hym & hys pleasure by fayth, be such a way toward heuen, yt without it we can not come thyther: yet if we ioyne not to ys knowlege good dedes or purpose of good workes [di] neyther can that knowlege nor repentaunce neyther serue vs for a suffycyent waye to heuen. And therfore Tyndale is not by thys knowlege made a man of Crystes trewe chyrche / but syth he is con- tent wyth the bare knowledge and setteth all good workes at so short, he is made therby a man of the false chyrch of the deuyll, that is a lyar hym selfe and father of all suche lyars. Tyndale. The chyrche is Crystes body Colloss. i. And euery person of the chyrche is a member of Cryste. Ephe. 5. Now it is no member of Cryste, that hath not Crystes spyryte in it/ as it is no parte of me nor member of my body, wherin my soule is not present and quyckenetk it. And then yf a man be none of Crystes, he is not of the chyrche. More. Here Tyndale runneth in iuglynge, by equyuocacyon of thys worde chyrche. For where as hym selfe hath byfore thys tyme, confessed in wrytyng in thys same boke to whiche I answere now, that the chyrch in many places of holy scrypture is the hole multytude that professe the fayth of Cryste, whyther they be good or badde: here he fareth as though there were no man of the chyrche, but onely good folke alone in whom is the spyryte of Cryste/ wyth an ensample put of the body, hauyng some dede parte hangyng theron, wherin were not the soule to quycken it and gyue it lyfe, whyche therfore he sayth is no parte of the body. But he forgeteth that somtyme there is some member astoyned and lacketh bothe lyfe and felynge/ whyche yet by the reason that it is not clene cut of and caste awaye, receyueth after lyfe and felynge agayne/ as many a dedely synner doth in the body of Crystes chyrche take lyfe agayne, that hath in synne lyen full longe dede. But now is he yet of thys mynde, that the fayth whych hym selfe hath descrybed, is the thynge that it onys goten and hadde of any man/ kepeth in the spyryte of god so fast in hys harte, that he ys surely a quycke member of the chyrche that ys Crystes body/ and that he can not lese that fayth nor that spyryte at any tyme after that he hath onys goten it/ so that he haue it as he sayth in another chapyter after, felyngly and not onely hystorycally. And who so euer haue not the fayth that he descrybeth hym, he rekeneth for an heretyke/ and onely hys fayth for the trew, and the byleuers therof for the trew chyrche. [div] Now hys fayth haue ye herde often inough, that onely fayth suffyseth or at the leste wyse wyth repentynge/ & that shryfte or penaunce toward heuen, or remyssyon of synnes is heresye/ and that to wurshyppe the blessed sacrament of the aulter is dyshonour to god/ and that there is no purgatory/ and that frerys maye well & laufully wedde nonnes / and a greate rable of suche deuelysshe heresyes mo, of such maner suit and sort, that as our sauyour sayed vnto saynt Peter at the confessyon of hys ayth, Thou arte blessed Symon the sonne of Ionas, For flesshe and bloude hath not reueled thys vnto the, but my father that is in heuyn: so wyll he saye to Tyndale, for confessynge of thys false fayth of his: Thou art accursed Tyndale the sonne of the deuyll/ for neyther fleshe nor bloude hath taught the these heresyes/ but thyn owne father the deuyll thatis in hell. And thus well hath he quytte hym in thys chapyter. Here endeth the confutacyon of thys chapyter of Tyndale, whyther the chyrche can erre. Here foloweth the next chapyter of Tyndale, in which he sayth that a trew member of Crystes Chyrche Synneth Hot, and that he ys yet a synner. Tyndale. How a trewe member of Crystes chyrche synneth not, and how he ys yet a synner. More. NOWE come we to the specyall poynte wherin Tindale gyueth vs a glorious demonstracyon of hys excellent hygh wytte and lernynge, farre surmountyng the capacyte of pore popyshe men to perceyue, how it myghte be possyble that any man synneth not and yet for all hat synneth all waye styll. But to the entent that Tyndale shall haue no cause to saye ys I deface hys gay goodly tale, by manglynge of hys mater and rehersynge hym by patchys and pecys: ye shall fyrst con- cernynge thys poynt here all hys hole chapyter to gether, wythout any worde of hys eyther omytted or chaunged/ and after shall we consyder & examyne ys partes. These are therfore hys wordes. [di] Tyndale. Ferthermore, he that hath thys fayth cannot synne / and therfore he can not be deceyued with darnpnable errours. For by thys fayth we be (as I sayde) borne of god. Now he that is borne of god can not synne, for his seed dwelleth in hym/ and he can not therfore synne bycause heis borne of god. I. Iohan. 3. Whyche seed is the holy goste that kepeth a mans herte from consentynge vnto synne. And therfore it is a fuls conclusyon that mayster More holdeth, how that a man maye haue a ryght fayyh ioyned with all kyndes of abumyha- cyon and synne. And yet euery member of Crystes congregacyon is a synner and synneth dayly, some more and some lesse. For it is wryten.I. Iohan. I. Yf we saye we haueno synne we deceyue our selues, and the trewth is not in vs. And agayne yf we saye we haue not synned, we make hym a lyar and his worde is not in vs. And paule Roma. 7. sayth/ that good which I wolde that do I not/ but that euyll whych I wolde not that do I. So it is not I that do it (sayth he) but synne that dwelleth in me. Thus are we synners and no synners. No synners yf thou loke vnto the professyon of our hartes towarde the lawe of god, on our repentaunce and sorowe that we haue, bothe bycause we haue synned and also bycause we be yet full of sinne styll, and vnto the promises of mercy in our sauyour Cryst and vnto fayth. Synners are we yf thou loke vnto the frayltye of our flesshe, whyche is as the weaknesse of one that is newly recouered out of a greate dysease/ by the reason wherof our dedes are imperfecte, and by the reason wherof also, when occasyons be great we fall into horryble dedes/ and the frute of the synne whych remayneth in our membres breaketh out. Notwythstandynge yet the spyryte leaueth vs not, but rebuketh vs and bryngeth vs home agayne vnto our possession/ so that we neuer caste of the yoke of god fromour neckes, neyther yelde vp our selues vnto synne for to serue it, but fyghte afreshe and begynne a,ew batayle. More. Lo now ye haue herde hys hole holy sermon to gether, by whyche he teacheth vs that a trew member of Crystes chyrche doth both euer synne and neuer synne. But as for the tone parte, that the trew membres of Cryste do synne/ we shall not mych trouble hym wyth the profe (All be it in that he sayth that euery trewe member synneth and euer synneth, as he sayth in mo places then one: yf he take synne for actuall synne as he muste here take yt, or ellys he speketh lytell to the purpose / men myghte peraduenture lay a blocke or twayne iil hys waye, that wolde breke hys shynnes ere he lepte ouer it) But lettynge that parte passe / lette vs se how he proueth the tother, that a trew member of Cristes chyrch synneth not. Lo thus he proueth it. [div]  Tyndale. Forthermore he that hath this fayth can not synne, and therfore can not be deceyued wyth damnable errours. More. Here he telleth vs that no member of the electe chyrclie of hys fayth can be deceyued wyth any damnable errour/ and proueth it by that none of them can synne. And in dede it foloweth, he can not Synne, ergo he can not be damnably deceyued, syth euery damnable errour is synne. But now let vs se how he proueth hys antecedent, that no man hauynge that fayth can synne. He proueth it thus. Tyndale. For by thys fayth we be borne of god. Now he that is borne of god can not synne, for his seed dwelleth in hym/ and he can not therfore synne, bycause he is borne of god, the.3. chapiter of the fyrsye epystle of Iohan. Whyche seed is the holy goste that kepys a mannes harte from consentynge to synne. And therfore it is a false conclusyon that M. More holdeth, that a man maye haue a ryght fayth ioyned wyth all kyndes of abomynacyon and synne. More. Consyder now good reader, that Tyndale telleth vs here thre thynges, to proue therby that who so gete onys the fayth that saynt Peter confessed can neuer synne after. The fyrste is, that by that fayth we be borne of god. The seconde is, that who so is borne of god, hath the seed of god in hym. The thyrde is, that who so haue the seed of god in hym, can not Synne. Vppon these thre he concludeth, that who so gete onys that fayth can neuer synne after. Let vs now consyder the fyrste, where he sayth that by fayth we be borne of god. And therin dare we be bolde to tell hym, that though it be trew that by fayth we be borne of god as he now sayth: yet is it false that by onely fayth we be borne of god / as he falsely meaneth, and in many places as falsely for trouth affermeth, where he wolde make vs wene that bycause we be borne of god and become hys chyldren by fayth, we were therfore borne of god by onely fayth. As wysely as yf he wolde saye, that bycause he was by- gotten by hys father/ he was therfore bygotten of hys father onely wythout any mother. And thys hys foly hym selfe so well perceyueth, that in many places he laboreth to couer it wyth sophystycacyon, [di] in vsynge thys worde fayth for fayth and hope to gyther, ye and somtyme for cheryte therwyth also/ and then wolde make vs wene wyth suche wyse iuglynge, that fayth alone were fayth, hope, and cherite all thre to geder, bycause that ellys the fayth were but dede. And therin vseth hym selfe as wysely, as yf he wolde saye that the body alone eteth, drynketh, walketh, byleueth, loueth, and all to gether. And when hys foly were reproued/ wolde then saye that he called the body alone the body wyth the soule therin, bycause the body without ys soule were but a dede body that coulde no thynge do. And thus ye se that ye shall not nede to be deceyued by hys fyrste poynt, that we be borne of god by fayth. Hys seconde poynt is, that euery man beynge borne of god hath the seed of god dwellyng in hym. I wyll not here contende wyth hym, whyther the seed of god that dwelleth in the chyldern of god, be the holy goste, or the fayth, or the grace of god/ nor in what wyse god and hys holy spyryte dwellen in good folke. But lettynge suche dysputacyons passe/ thys wyll I saye, that yf the seed of fayth beynge onely fayth abyde in hym, it is not a thynge that shall so surely kepe hym from synne, but that he maye synne dedely, and the seed of suche fayth stande styll wyth his synne/ and the man for all the seed of suche fayth dwellynge in hym, may be by synne the chylde of the deuyll, and so maye dye and go to the deuyll. But yet ys the seed of fayth alone, that is to saye the bylyefe alone, a very greate occasyon of retournynge to god at hys callynge agayne by the offer of hys grace, and therby to gete agayne bothe holsome hope and cheryte. But not so great an occasion therof, but that the man may kepe styll hys fayth and hys bylyefe alone, and wythout hope or cheryte eyther, by malyce or neglygence fyrste fall to synne, and after contynue styll in synne, and refuse ye grace of god yf he wyll/ as well as the deuyll dyd in the begynnynge, and so doth euer styll, and wyll do styll in hell as longe as god dwelleth in heuen. Now yf the seed of god in the crysten man, be ment hys grace by whyche men come to fayth, hope, and cheryte and do good workes wythall, not wythout the consent and applyeng of theyr owne fre wylles therto/ such folke as haue vse of reason workynge wyth god for theyr pore parte to[div]warde theyr owne saluacyon, wyth the instrument yt god of hys onely goodnesse hath made and gyuen them therunto/ yf he meane that thys seed of goddes grace dwelleth styll in man, to kepe hym from fallynge to synne: I saye that it is very trew, as longe as man wyll cleue therunto & let his owne wyll worke ther- with. But when so euer he wyll withdraw his owne wyll therfro, to foloWe the world, the flesshe, or the deuyll: then lyke as his wyll departeth from grace, so doth ordinarily ys seed of grace depart out of im. Now yf he meane by the seed of god, that the spyryte of god dwell- eth in the Crysten man by any other specyafl maner of dwellynge, aboue such dwellyng as he dwelleth in other men by hys power and Presence of hys godhed, then onely by his fauour & grace/ which other speciall maner yf Tyndale meane any such, I can not conceyue, syth I make my selfe sure that he meaneth no suche dwellynge in vnyte of person, as the seconde person of ys godhed dwelleth with the manhode of Cryste: yet yf he deuyse and meane any other maner of dwellynge, by whyche the spyryte of god dwelleth wyth the fayth- full man, I say that the spyryte dwelleth in hym and helpeth hym to contynue suche as longe as the man wyll by the applyenge of hys owne wyll contynue wyth the spyryte. But I saye that the man may by the frowardnesse of hys fre Wyll, at the mocyon of the flesshe, or instygacyon of the deuyll, or entycement of ys worlde, hys fayth remaynynge/ fall from cheryte, and put the spyryt from hym. As dyd the peple of Gerasens, which seynge Crystes myracle wrought vppon the madde man, out of whom he dyd caste the deuyll, bycause he draue the deuyll into theyr hoggys and therby draue theyr hoggys into the se/ though well they perceyued what a myghty lord he was and of what goodnes to, in that they saw hym delyuer the man from the legyon of deuyls, and therfore loued hym somwhat of lykelyhed, and wolde haue ben glad to haue had hym dwell styll wyth them: yet ferynge that by the castynge out of mo deuyls they myghte afterwarde hap- pely lese mo of theyr hogges, they prayed hym courteysely to gete hym quykly thense. Yet god, when man hath put hym out of hys dwellyng/ doth of hys great goodnesse not alwayes vtterly leue hym for hys vnkyndnesse/ but though yf the man dye ere god come in agayne, god shall of iustyce for hys vnkyndnesse condempne hym, yet he [ei] houeth styll about ys dore of his harte, alway knockyng vppon hym to be by the fre wyll of man let in with his grace into the howse of mannes harte agayn/ accordyng to ys wordes ofour sauyour in the Apocalipse, where he sayth, I stande at the dore knockyng. How be it a man may be so froward & obstynate in synne, & when he hath expelled god out of his hart, may dreue hym with synne vpon sinne and dispyghtfull cyrcumstaunces so farre of fro the dore, as some of these heretykes do (which in dispyght of vertuouse vowes of chastyte, runne out & wedde nonnes & lyue in lechery/ and in dispyght of ys lenton faste, eate flesh vpon good fryday/ and in dyspyght of the blessed sacramentes of ye awter, cast the precyous body of Cryst out of the pyx) ys god shall iustely for ys hougenes of theyr abominacion withdraw hym selfe so farre, ys he shall peraduenture neuer approche nere vnto them agayn, nor neuer after offer them hys grace. And then muste they nedes neuer cease fallynge tyll they come downe to the deuyll. Thus fynally concernyng hys seconde poynt/ fayth alone may dwell in a man, and dedely synne togyther. But lyuely fayth, yt is to wyt fayth not alone, but coupled with hope & cheryte & wyll of good workes, can not dwell with dedely synne / neyther wyth manslaughter, aduowtry, nor any suche lyke/ but as the tone commeth in, the tother goth out, whyther the synne be commytted of malyce, weykenesse, or frayltye/ wherof Tyndale very styffely techeth vs vntruly ye contrary And yet I say not that all synnes be of one wayght, concernyng the dyffycultye of returnyng to repentaunce, or ys degrees of payne in hell, after the finall impenytence or punyshement in purgatoryfor lacke ofpenaunce here/ but for that yf they dye before they retourne by grace and good wyll vnto penaunce, they be all perpetually dampned in hell the tone as well as the tother, though the tone not so mych as the tother, contrary to Tyndals aforesayd false conclusyon/ whose profe in that poynt specyally dependeth vppon hys thyrde artycle wher of the wordes be trew & hys vnderstandyng false. For hys thyrde poynt ye wote well is thys, that who so euer haue the seed of god dwellynge in hym can not synne. Thvs poynt ye remember he proueth, by the wordes of saynte Iohan in the thyrde chapyter of hys fyrste pystle. Whyche pystle is vndowtedly one of the moste harde and darke places of all the new testament/ and wherof sundry [eiv] great heresyes haue rysen, & sondry mo there may, thorow suche malycyouse myndes as rede the scrypture, to none other entent but to wreste euery word vnto ys worse parte/ and of the playnesse and symplicite that the apostles vsed in the maner of theyr wordes, take occasyon to tourne theyr erneste godly sentence, into friuolouse cauyllacyons and sophysmes/ as not onely dyuerse heretykes haue done of olde, but also Tyndale hath now of newe, bothe renewed theyr olde & added some of his own, more pestylent & more folysh also then all the olde heretykes durst for very shame haue spoken of And where as all ys olde holy doctours vsed alway to make open & expoune the hard & darke places of scrypture, by suche other as were playne clere & euydent: these heretykes alwaye for the profe of theyr heresyes, seke out the hardest places ys can be founden in scrypture. And all the playne open wordes in whych can be no dowte nor question, they come and expoune by those places ys be darke, obscure, & hard to vnderstand/ mych lyke a blynd guyde, ys wolde when men were walkyng in a darke nyght, put out the candell and shew them the way by the lanterne. This way vseth Tyndale vnyuersally, as well in euery other thyng ys he taketh in hand to proue, as in this poynt specyally/ ys he which hath onys the fayth can neuer synne, bycause he hath ys seed of god dwellyng in hym. For where as it is euydent & playne by clere and open textes of scrypture, full & plentuouse in euery part therof, that there is no man here (excepte some specyall reuelacyon therof) so sure of his owne fynall saluacyon, nor of his own present estate neyther, but that he hath good cause to fere & temper hys hope of goddys mercy with the drede of his iustyce, lest his ouer bolde hope may happe to stretche in to presumpcion & occasyon of sleyght regardyng synne: Tyndale wolde expoune them all agaynst them all, by one darke text or twayn taken in this pistle of saynt Iohan/ by which he wold make vs byleue yt saynt Iohan techeth dyuers of the most pestylent heresyes & most repugnaunt vnto god, and ys in hys iustyce and his mercy bothe, wyth the most occasyon gyuen vnto the world vnto the two most heyghnouse synnes and moste contraryouse in them selfe, that is to wytte presumpcyon & despayre, that euer any heretyke deuysed. For he gathereth and affermeth vpon saynt Iohans pystle, in hys false exposycyon, and also in hys foresayd be[ei]gynnynge of thys chapyter, that saynt Iohan techeth them all these false heresyes folowynge. Fyrste that who so euer haue onys the trewe fayth, can neuer after synne of malice or purpose/ but that all the synnys that he can after fall vnto, shalbe but of wekenes and frayltye, be they murder, aduow- try, periury, sacrylege, inceste or treason, or any other abomynable dede be it neuer so detestable synne. Secondely yt of all such synnes he that hath onys at any tyme goten ys fayth, shall haue euer after the grace to repent. And thyrdely yt at the bare repentynge wythout shryfte or pen- aunce, he shall haue forthwyth forgeuenesse of all synne and payne/ so that any satysfaccyon shall not onely no thyng nede, but is also as he sayth a dampnable thyng to do it, for hope or desyre towarde any remyssyon eyther of synne or payne, and a dampnable errour to byleue that god hath ordayned any punysshement or payne eyther in purgatory after thys worlde, or by any afflyccyon in thys world, for any synne that any man onys hauyng the fayth commytteth & repenteth hym of, were it neuer so abominable. For in hys exposycyon of yt fyrste pystle of saynt Iohan, he is come so mych ferther then euer he came before (as farre as I remember) ys there lyke as I haue shewed you byfore in the preface, he denyeth not onely purgatory but also all punysshement: here he techeth also that who so gete onys the trew fayth, which he calleth the felyng fayth, hath a sure vndowted knowlege that he is in the state of grace, and an electe that can neuer be dampned. Now of these abomynable heresyes what bold occasyon of synne men may catche, and how they repungne agaynste the iustyce of god: I referre it vnto the wysedome of euery good Crysten reder. Then techeth he on the tother syde, yt who so euer after hys baptysme had, & the story fayth, that is sayth he the fayth with whych we byleue the artycles of the fayth as men byleue a story or a cronicle, do any dedely synne of purpose/ ys is to wytte as he sayth, not of wekenes or freyltye but of malyce or wyllyngly wyth a consentyng to the synne: ys man shall neuer after be forgeuen in thys worlde nor in none other. For euery such synne sayth he is the synne agaynst ys holy goste/ which shall sayth he neuer be forgyuen, notwithstandynge any repentaunce and penaunce taken and done therfore. [eiv] And to the profe of thys pestylent heresye, he draweth the couert nd obscure wordes of our sauyour Cryste in the gospell of saynt Mathew the.12. chapyter/ and also the darke and hard wordes of saynt Poule. Whych places of them selfe all olde holy doctours confesse for dyffuse and almost vnexplycable / sauynge that they all expoune them con- trary to Tyndals heresye, by ys artycles of the knowne fayth of Crystes catholyke chyrche, and by many playne open textes of holy scrypture. of whyche two thynges Tyndale the tone dyssymuleth, and the tother despyseth / and byleueth the olde heretyke Nouaciane the fyrste authour of that abomynable heresye, better then saynte Cypryane, saynte Hyerom, saynte Austayne, saynte Ambrose, saynt Gregory, and all the olde holy sayntes that haue wryten agaynst it/ and better then the hole catholyke chyrche of Cryste of thys .xv. hundred yere, yt euer hath taught the contrarye, and euer syth the fyrst inuencyon of that heresye haue contynually detested and con- dempned it, as one of the most execrable heresyes that euer ys deuyll deuysed. For as Tyndals other heresye fyghteth agaynste goddes iustyce/ so doth thys dyrectly fyghte agaynste hys mercy/ and putteth almoste all crysten people in vtter despayre of heuen, yf men were so madde to byleue one heretyke or twayne, better then all the olde holy sayntes, and all the hole chyrche of Cryste. Thys heresye as I began to tell you, Tyndale among hys other afore remembred, laboreth to stablysh/ not onely by the darke and harde places of scrypture afore remembred, but also by certayne wordes in thys fyrste pystle of saynt Iohan/ where is no more colour to speke therof then of the man in the mone, as euery man maye sone perceyue that redeth hym. But now for our present purpose, to towch his heresies of thys chapyter of hys, of synnyng without synne/ I shall touche you the place in that pystle of saynt Iohan, wherby Tyndale wolde proue you that who so gete onys the fayth whyche he calleth the trew fayth and the felyng fayth, can neuer synne dedely after. By whyche ye shall playnely se how playnely he mysseconstrewth the scrypture, to the myschyef of mennes soules. The wordes of saint Iohan be these Euery man that is borne of god doth not synne, for the seed of hym abydeth in hym/ and he can not synne, bycause he is borne of god. [e3] In the vnderstandynge of these wordes varye Tyndale and We. And whyther he or we mysse vnderstande it, that let vs now examyne. Fyrst we shall I suppose agre to gether bothe, that to be borne of god is in the scrypture no thynge ellys, but to be the chyld of god/ and to be borne of the deuyll, is to be the deuyls chylde. We shall I thynke also agre to gether in thys, that to be borne o god or to be the chyldren of god, is not mente to be hys naturall chyldren, as our sauyour Cryste is by reason of hys godhed/ but by fayth, hope, and cheryte, and the sacramentes, and the folowynge of Cryst in good workes, and kepynge of goddes commaundementes, to be membres of hys mystycall body of hys electe chyrche. But herein peraduenture shall Tindale and we begyn to vary, not onely for that I saye by the sacramentes and good workes, of whyche Tyndale wyll not here/ but also for the electe chyrche yt is Crystes mystycall body, wherof goddes chyldren be membres here in erth For all be it that he is so waueryng in his wordes that he woteth no where to holde hym, and therfore speketh so darkely that he wold be loth to be vnderstanden: yet he wyll call as it semeth no man a mem- ber of Crysyes electe chyrche, but hym that is elected fynally to blysse and saluacyon. And I call here the elect chyrche in thys world, neyther all that are chosen in to crysten- dome and the professyon of the catholyke fayth, nor onely those that shall be fynally saued/ but all suche as for the present tyme so stande in the state of grace, that yf they dye before they fall therfro they shalbe saued. Of whiche folke many fall after from it, & so be dampned in dede/ whyche folke before theyr fall be the chyldren of god saye I. And when they be fallen into dedely synne, then ceace they to he the chyldren of god, and be be- come the chyldren of the deuyll, tyll they be borne of god agayne by grace thorowe penaunce, and become the chyldren of god agayne. And in whyche so euer of these two states a man fynally dyeth in/ in that he perpetually dwelleth, and is therby for euer eyther the chylde of god in hys chyrche of the fynall electes in heuen, or ellys the chyld of the deuyll in the chyrche of the fynall reprobatys in hell/ accordyng to the word of holy wryte, yf a tre fall south or north, in what place so euer it fall there shall it remayne. But here sayth Tyndale, that who so euer haue onys [eiv] the fayth whyche he calleth after the felyng fayth/ he hath the seed of god, the spyryte of god in hym. And bycause he hath the spyryte of god in hym/ yherfore lle sayth by the authoryte of ys aforsayd wordes of saynt Iohan, that man can neuer synne dedely. So that by that reason, who so euer haue onys the fayth, is one of the fynall electes. Now se you in what maner Tyndale taketh these wordes. But agaynste hys takynge, stande all the olde holy doctours of Crystes chyrche, from the dayes of hym selfe and hys apostles hytherto. Of all whom, let Tyndale tell me the name of any one that euer dyd vnderstande these wordes of saynt Iohan in such wyse as Tyndale doth/ that who so euer gate onys the ryght fayth of Cryste, and put therwyth as greate a felynge therof wyth hope and cherite therto, as euer holy Tyndale hym selfe felte in hys dayes/ coude neuer after fall into dedely synne, or not so depe into it, that he myghte after be perpetually dampned in hell. Let Tyndale I saye tell me any one of the olde holy sayntes, that in thys exposycyon euer toke hys parte/ and lette hym take all my teth and my tonge to. Now yf neuer any good man vnderstode saynte Iohan so byfore/ but all holy men clene ys contrary/ by what reason loketh Tyndale now, that we sholde now begynne to byleue hym alone, in the vnder- standynge of these wordes of saynte Iohan, better then all good con. nynge men thys.xv. hundreth yere before hym. Now is hys exposycyon bysydes thys, not onely agaynst the catho- lyke fayth of all crysten people, and the playne determynacyon o Crystes chyrche/ but also agaynste many playne open places of holy scrypture bysyde / whych were in so playne and clere a mater almoste a loste labour to reherse. And yet leste an vnlerned reder myght happe any thynge to dowte, I shall reherse you some. What saye we by the wordes of the spyryte reueled vnto saynt Iohan, agaynste the bysshop of the chyrche of Ephesus/ whom where as god prayse for many great vertues, in suche wyse that it appered that he was at that tyme in grace and goddes ryght specyall fauour, yet sayed he vnto hym, I haue for all this a few thynges agaynst the, bycause thou hast lefte of thy fyrst cheryte? And therfore remember from whens thou arte fallen, and amende and do the good workes whyche tho were wont to do. For ellys wyll I [ei] come shortely to the, and I wyll remoue thy candelstycke oute of hys place, excepte thou repent and do penaunce. Doth it not here playnely appere, that he whyche hath goten so the fayth, and that the lyuynge fayth to, that he worketh so wel therwyth that the lyght of hys faythfull lyuely workes shyne brygh before the face of god/ maye yet by declynynge from that feruour of deuout workes, in to some slouthfull slaknesse though myche of hys vertue tary, fall yet so low at laste, that god shall reiecte hym and caste his candelstycke, wherof the lyght shall be worne out, quyte out of hys place? If thys myghte not be/ god wolde not tell hym, i bothe myght and excepte he mended shold. Doth not saynte Poule saye, he that thynketh that he standeth/ let hym beware he fall not? It apereth there playne by the cyrcumstaunces of the place, that he speketh there to them whom he rekened for good men and faythfull. For to those that stand he gyueth the counsayle to beware they fall not. Whyche by Tyndale yf they onys in fayth fele them selfe stande they nede not, for they can not fall dedely. But say=nt Poule there mente dedely falles, as bothe by hys wordes byfore and after appereth. He sayth also to the Romayns in ys.io. chapyter, They, that is the Iewys, are broken of for theyr lacke of bylyefe. But thou standest by fayth/ be not proude therof but fere. There sheweth saynt Poule effectually by a longe processe, that lyke wyse as he whyche lacketh fayth maye by grace come to it/ so he that hath it and standeth in it hath cause to fere, bycause he may by his own defaut fall from it. Sayth he not also, The rote of all euylles is couetyce / whyche whyle some folke couetyd, they walked out of the waye from the fayth? He sayth also, Hymeneus and Philetus are fallen from the treuth/ sayeng that the resurreccyon is paste all redy, & they haue peruerted the fayth of some persons. Here sheweth saynt Poule playne, that men maye haue the fayth and lese it/ and that can they not I suppose with out dedely synne. Peraduenture Tyndale wyll say, that he speketh onely of electys/ and that I can not proue these textes to be spoken of electes. Therto saye I that he calleth euery man an electe, that is onely borne agayn of god by fayth, and that [eiv] byleueth to be saued by the meane of Cryste/ and of suche speke these textes, and therfore they speke of hys electes. Then wyll he peraduenture say, that he meaneth of a felynge fayth onely. I know not what he meaneth by hys felynge fiyth/ but I wote well these textes speke of good fayth & lyuely fayth, that worketh wyth loue. If he fynde any other felynge let hym tell vs. And yet yf there be any other felynge of fayth, then byleuyng, louyng, and workyng/ the selfe same to, semeth by saynt Poule that it may be lefte of agayn and loste, as appereth by the same wordes of his in the syxte chapyter vnto the He- brewys / of whyche wordes Tyndale taketh hys chyefe holde of the tother parte of hys heresyes, that is to wytte that who so synne onys dedely after hys baptysme, shall neuer after be forgeuen. Saynte Poules wordes are these. It is impossyble that they whyche haue onys ben illumyned, and haue tasted the heuenly gyfte, and haue ben made part takers of the holy goste, & haue tasted the good worde of god and the powers of the worlde to come, and be after all thys fallen downe/ sholde be renewed agayne by penaunce, for as mych as they as mych as in them lyeth, crucyfye agayne the sonne of god, and haue hym in derysyon. Lo syrs where as Tyndale speketh of felynge fayth/ saynt Poule speketh here of them that haue felte the taste therof And where as Tyndale speketh mych of the worde of god/ saynt Poule here speketh of them that haue felt the taste of the good word of god. And where as Tyndale speketh myche of beynge borne agayne of the spyryte/ saynte Poule here in lyke wyse speketh of them ys haue receyued the spyryte. And yet for all that they haue ben illumyned, and haue felte the taste of the celestyall gyfte, and ben part takers of the holy goste, and haue felt the swete taste of the good worde of god, & ofthe powers of the worlde to come: yet sayth he contrary to Tyndals techynge, that they may for all thys fall downe so farre into dedely synne, that it is impossyble for them to be renewed agayne by penaunce. What hath Tyndale here to saye to saynt Poule? Surely for the defence of thys folysshe heresye, no thyng hath he to saye at all, tha any good colour hath. But when he shalbe fayne to gyue ouer thys/ then wyll he comfort hym selfe wyth that that saynte Poule here semeth to ferther hys other heresye, that euery dedely synne [fi] after baptysme sholde be ao irremyssyble. But out of that comfort shall I dreue hym shortely. For I am sure the places of holy scrypture wryten all by one holy spyryte, varyeth not in sentence. And where as these wordes, as well appereth by the olde holy wryters, be full of hardnesse and dyf. fycultye: yet that the sentence can not be such as may serue Tyndal heresye, ys shall we, leuyng all theyr exposycyons whyche are all clene agaynste hym, make hym open and euydent, by the playne & clere wordes of the holy prophete Ezechyell, whose wordes lo be these in the.xviii. chapyter. If a synner repent hym of all the synnes ys he hath done, & kepe all my com- maundementes, & deale iustely & ryghteously: he shall lyue, and shall not dye. Of all ys iniquitees that he hath wrought I wyll none remem- ber: in ys ryghteousnes whyche he hath done shall he lyue. Is it my wyll sayth the lorde god, that the wicked man shold dye, & not rather that he sholde be conuerted from hys wayes & lyue? But truely yf the ryghtuouse man turne hym selfe awaye from hys ryghtuousnesse, & worke wyckednes in any of all those abominations which the wicked man is wont to worke, shall be lyue ? Of all ys ryghtuousnes ys he hath done, shall none be remembred. But for the offence which he hath commytted, & in the synne that he hath done/ for those shall he dye. Lo syrs here is more then I promysed. For here be both his heresyes destroyed at onys. For god here by the mouth of this holy man, promiseth without any maner excepcion, yt when so euer the wycked man wyll turne, he shalbe taken to grace. And in lyke wyse when so euer ys ryghtuous inan synne, his formar ryghtuousnes shall not saue hym from dampnacyon. And this sentence our lorde hath set so sure, that he repeteth it agayne in ys.xxxiii. chapyter in this wyse. The ryghtuousnes of the ryghtuous man shall not saue hym in what daye so euer he synne. Also when so euer the wycked man turne from his wyckednes/ it shall not hurte hym. And the ryghtuous man can not lyue thorowe hys ryghtuousnes, in what daye so euer he synne. Here haue ye good reders hard this sentence by ye word of god in thys one holy prophete, dowble confermed & therby Tyndals dowble heresye dowble also condempned. And yet lest Tyndale myghte say, why sholde you not as well expoune and glose Ezechyel by saynte Poule, as [fiv] saynt Poule by Ezechyel, namely syth saynt Poule came after, and therfore of goddes mynde maye tell vs ferther: it apereth I saye that our lorde wyll not that these wordes of Ezechiel be glosed by any other wordes, though they be spoken by god hym selfe/ but that his other wordes yf they seme contrary, shall be rather expouned by these. And therof he gyueth vs open warnynge in hys wordes folowynge and sayth. Ye and though I wolde saye to a ryghte- ouse man that he shall lyue, and he then trustynge in hys ryghteousenes commytte and do wyckednesse/ all hys ryghteousnes shall be forgotten/ and for the iniquyte whyche he hath wrought, for that he shall dye. But yf I saye to a synner, Thou shalt dye/ and he then repenteth hym of hys synne, and doth iuge- ment and iustyce, and that the same wycked man restore the pledge that he hath of an other man, and also make restytucyon of stollen goodes, and walke in the commaundementes of lyfe, and do nothynge that is vnryght: he shall lyue, and shall not dye but be saued, and none of all the synnes which he hath commytted, shalbe layed to his charge. Iugement and iustyce hath he done, and therfore shall he lyue and not dye. Lo good crysten reders, here se we very playne, that we were farre vnwyse yf we wold folowe the foly of Tyndale, eyther in bolde pre- sumptuose hope or folysshe ferefull despayre/ eyther wenynge that after any felynge fayth onys had, any dede that we coulde after do, coulde be no dedely synne / or yt for any dede done after our baptysme, we could by penaunce neuer be saued after. We maye be very sure, that as saynt Poule playnely reproueth the tone, and ys harde to perceyue what he meaneth in the tother: so that he meneth not as Tyndale telleth vs, we may well know/ not onely by all the olde holy doctours and sayntes that expoune saynt Poule, in that he sayth it is impossyble to be renewed by penaunce, that it is impossybl to be by penaunce renewed vnto the state of baptysme. And by that exposycyon they destroye yet a thyrde heresye of Tyndale, concernynge hys full remyssyon of synne and payne and all forthwyth as soone as he repenteth/ but also be we well lerned here by the prophete Ezechyell that all though yt maye peraduenture be, that a man maye go fort in synne so farre, that he shall neuer haue grace of [fi] repentaunce after offered vnto hym, & for that cause ought euery man stande in greate fere to synne how greate fayth so euer he fele/ yet yf we begynne onys to repente, we may be sure that god offereth grace & wyll perfyt our penauns wyth encreace of his grace, and wyll perdone the deth dew for our dedely synne, but yf we fayle on our parte to go forWarde wyth hys grace, and that we folyshly fall therfro. Now agaynste all these euydent places of scrypture playnely con- trary to Tyndals exposycyon/ what thynge hatll Tyndale to defende his exposycyon wythall? If he name any men/ he shall name you none but a fewe knowen condempned heretykes, agaynst all holy doctours & sayntes and the catholyke fayth of all crysten people. If he pretende any places of scrypture/ he shall alledge a few darke hard and obscure, or no thyng pertaynynge to the mater, agaynste a great many manyfeste, playne and euydent, & clerely prouynge hys exposycyon false. Fynally ye shall fynde that the hole purpose of saynte Iohan in that pystle, no thynge maketh in thys worlde for Tyndals entent but rather clerely the contrary. For saynt Iohan entended there, not to shew them, that who so is onys good can neuer after be badde, as Tindale sayth he ment/ but vtterly to gyue all the world warnyng, that be men at one tyme neuer so good, yet when so euer after they do noughte they be nought, and by theyr euyll doyng lese theyr goodnes. And lyke wyse as byfore whyle they byleue well and worke well, they be all that whyle borne of god, & be goddes chyldren, and haue his seed in them: so when so euer they fall from fayth to heresyes, or from good workes to dedely synne, then lese they the seed of god and be borne of the deuyll & hecome hys chylclren. And that saynte Iohan in thys poynt ment none other then thus/ the hole processe of hys pystle one parte compared wyth an other, doth more then playnely declare. For he sheweth that ys deuyll ys the father of euyll folke, and they hys chyldren by folowynge hym in theyr synfull workes/ as our sauyour sayd to ys iewes ye be of your father the deuyll, and hys desyres wyll ye And the son of god sayth Saynt Iohan came in to this worlde and here appered, to dyssolue and breke the workes of ys deuyll. And euery man that is borne of god, that is to saye that ys goddes chylde doth not synne, bycause ys seed of god abydeth in hym/ and [fiv] he can not synne bycause he is borne of god and is goddes chylde, as though he wolde say, for yf he fall to synne, then ceaceth he to be borne of god and to be goddes chylde, and begynneth to be borne of the deuyll and to be hys chylde. And therfore it foloweth forthwyth in the texte, By this be the chyldern of god and the chyldern of the deuyll open. That is to saye, by thys maye ye se who be the chyldern of god and who the chylderne of the deuyl. For he that is not ryghtuouse is not the chylde of god, nor he that loueth not hys brother. And after he sayth, euery man that hateth his brother is a manqueller/ and ye knowe that no man- queller hath euerlastynge lyfe abydynge in hym. Lo good reder, where as he sayd byfore that the chylde of god can not synne, bycause he hath the seed of god abydynge in hym: here he sayth for all that, who so euer hate hys brother is an homicyde, and therfore hath not euerlastynge lyfe abydynge in hym. Whyche is the thynge that he before called the seed of god, whyther he ment therby lyuely fayth, grace, or the spyryte of god. Of whyche thre the fyrste two be the begynnynge and the entre in to euerlastynge lyfe, whyche shall be perfyted by glory/ and the thyrde is hym selfe euer- lastynge lyfe of hys owne omnipotent nature. And thus haue he the seed of lyfe neuer so stronge and sure at one tyme whyle he is the chylde of god: yet when so euer he falleth after to the hatered of hys brother, he leseth that lyfe by the commyttynge of dedely synne, and becometh the chylde of the deuyll. To thys wyll Tyndale peraduenture say, that I passe ouer and dys- symule the wayght of saynt Iohans wordes ys he allegeth, and that I wynke and wyll not perceyue how playnely they proue hys purpose. For though it be trewe that when so euer a man hateth hys brother, he is an homicyde and synneth dedely, and hath not euerlastyng lyfe nor the seed of god abydynge in hym: yet foloweth it not wyll Tyn- dale saye, that he that hath onys the felynge fayth, & therby is borne of god, and therby hath the seed of god in hym, may synne dedely and lese the seed of god. For he can not lese it but by synne. And the seed of god onys beynge in hym/ he can not bycause of that seed be suffered to hate hys brother of purpose, and so to do dedely synne and lese the seed of lyfe/ but euer is he by the strength and vertue of [fi] that seed of euerlastynge lyfe, preserued from all fallynge in to dedely synne. And that I proue (wyll Tyndale saye) by the playne and open wordes of saynt Iohan before alledged/ where he sayth that he that is borne of god can not synne, bycause he hath the seed of god abydynge in hym. He sayth not as longe as he hath it/ but he sayth he can not synne bycause he hath it. Sygnyfyeng playnely yt he can neuer synne, bycause he hath the thynge in hym that wyll neuer suffer any dedely synne to entre. And the reason that is made agaynst me vppon other wordes of the same pystle, auoydeth (wyll Tyndale saye) myne exposycyon no thynge at all. For lyke wyse as it is made agaynste a man onys borne of god, to proue that he maye be after borne of the deuyll: it may as well be made of any angell in heuen. For yf any angell in heuen wolde fall from the loue of god into malyce/ he sholde be turned from an angell in to a deuyll. But lyke wyse as that case can neuer fall, bycause the seed of god is in that angell/ whyche so kepeth hym & euer shall that he can not haue that euyll wyll so to do: so doth the seed of god onys entred wyth the felynge fayth in to a soule, so preserue it & kepe it by the myghty power cf that seed that that soule can not fall in to that malycyouse wyll that maye make any dede of hys to be dedely synne. And ys thys is so, I saye yet agayne yt the wordes of saynt Iohan whyclie I haue before alledged, do very playnely proue/ in that he sayth, that who so is borne of god can not synne, bycause he is borne of god, and by- cause he hath the seed of god abydyng in hym. And he sayth after in a nother place of the same pystle, that he whyche is borne of god/ hys generacyon (that is to wytte hys beynge borne of god by the seed of god wherby he ys begoten & borne of god) doth preserue & kepe hym. In thys wyse wyll Tyndale peraduenture answere me. And surely I can my selfe deuyse no more effectuall wordes that he myghte speke for hys parte/ for in good fayth yf I coulde I wolde. For neuer wyll I purposely leue his parte any more fayntely defended then myne own, as farre as my selfe can se any thynge that hym selfe myghte saye. But now to thys answere. We shall tell hym agayn that bytwene man & angell is there almoste as greate dyfference in thys mater, as there is bytwene them in theyr substaunce and nature. For the blessed angellys that stode styll wyth [fiv] god in the deuyls fall, were forth- wyth so surely confermed in grace, that they can neuer fall in to synne after, nor do any thynge wherof god wyll commaunde them the contrary. And of thys in them be we sure in fayth, by the worde of god taught vnto hys chyrche/ and they sure in knowledge by hys promyse made vnto them wyth hys worde, whyche he by a meane to vs not imagynable continually speketh vnto them, in the contem- placyon and byholdynge of hys almyghty godhed. But as for man/ we fynde no such promyse made vnto hym, that when he is ones good, he can neuer after waxe nought. But we fynde in scrypture the contrary, as I haue by playn scrypture proued all redy before. We se also that the catholyke fayth of all crysten people is to the contrary. For all crysten people excepte a few heretykes, both now byleue and all thys.xv. hundred yere before euer haue byleued, that good men & chyldren of god maye fall in to dedely synne, and be- come chyldern of the deuyll / and yet aryse by grace thorowe penaunce, and be made the chyldern of god agayne. Many textes also of holy scrypture playnely proue, that good folke mayc falle & perysshe. And the scrypture is full of good counsayle/ aduysynge all good men to stande faste alway and euer lyue in fere of fallynge/ but yf any specyall reuelacyon be geuen to some certayne man bysyde the comen ordinary course. We fynde also playne ensamples, both in scrypture and at our owne eyes, of many vertuouse chyldren of god, that haue fallen from that estate, & becomen by synne the chyldren of the deuyll. For lettynge passe ouer Iudas, that from the chylde of god and from an holy apostle torned in to the traytour of god & chylde of the deuyll of hell: we haue seen ouer many in our owne dayes, in whom we haue had experyence of ye lyke. As of frere Luther, frere Huskyn, Otho the monke, Pomerane the preste, & frere Lambert. For as for Swynglius, I neuer herde of any good vertue in hym. But all these other were the good chyldren of god onys, at suche tyme as grace and deuocyon brought them in to relygyon. And yet can now no good man dowte, but by the breche of theyr holy vowys and promyse made to god, and runnynge out in apostasye, and lyuynge in lechery vnder pretence of matrymony/ & for theyr more corage & boldenesse in suche bychery, to bere it to better out shamelesse wyth vngracy[fi]- ouse company, makynge a shamefull secte therof and an abomynable heresye, they be now fallen from Cryste, and haue expelled the seed of god out of theyr hartes by synne very deuylysh dedely. And yet dare I not despayre of any of all these, nor of Tyndale hym selfe neyther. For all hys owne rule, wherby he techeth that they whyche wyllyngly synne, and of purpose malycyousely impugne the knowen trouth, as they and he do, shall neuer come to grace of amendement nor ought not to be prayed for: yet dare I neyther I saye despayre of any of them nor of hym selfe neyther/ but hope yet and praye both, that god maye amende them all, yf none of them be dede in theyr synne and gone to the deuyll all redy. For then is there in them <2peccatum>2 <2ad mortem>2 that saynt Iohan speketh of / and vayne were it then & synne also, any more to praye for them then for the deuyll. <2Quia in inferno nulla est redemptio/>2 and the wreches lye there now blasphemynge god, and are hys vn- chaungcable enemyes as is the deuyll. But these reasons and these examples I saye, wyth the consent of all the olde holy exposytours of saynte Iohans pystle before/ make vs to perceyue surely, that saynt Iohan dyd neuer mene by these wordes, after such maner as Tyndale expouneth hym now/ that by- cause the seed of god ys onys in hym, therfore there can neuer any dedely synne enter after. For saynt Iohan hym selfe in the same stle counsayleth euery good man to stande styll in hys goodnes, & beware that he fall not in to idolatry. Whyche he myghte haue boden all goddes chyldren care neuer for, yf they were as Tyndale sayth sure by theyr felyng fayth, yt they could neuer fall therto, bycause the seed of god was onys wyth in theym. But as I sayd before, Tyndale in these wordes of saynt Iohan taketh occasyon of the symplycyte vsed in the maner of speche in holy scrypture, to make cauyllacyons and seke out sophysmes vppon euery worde. And where as saynte Iohan sayth, that the chylde of god can not synne / menyng not precysely that he can not synne dedely by any maner meane, but that it is a greate occasyon to kepe hym from synne, & that he ys doth dedely synne, is not goddcs chylde but the deuyls: Tyndale affermeth hym playnly to mene, that he whyche ys onys goddes chylde can neuer synne dedely after. As though euery man that wolde say, an ho[fiv]norable mannes chylde and vertuousely brought vp, can not fall to shamefull vycyouse lyuynge, for hys good educacyon sllall brydle hym, and drede of shamynge hym selfe and hys frendes muste nedes refrayne hym / myghte not meane by these wordes that the yonge man sholde haue a greate occasyon to contynue good, but muste nedes meane that it were impossyble for hym to be other then good/ and that he neuer coulde after forgete hys bryngynge vp, and shake of shame and fall to nought. Or yf one wolde saye, a man that taketh hys wyfe for very loue, can neuer fall to aduowtry, ys loue that he hath to her must nedes kepe hym to her/ nor she can not for very shame begyle hym, for the loue that he bereth to her. Do not folke speke in such fasshyon? And yet though they mene that these thynges be great occasyons to contayne the partyes in faythfull matrymony, they mene not that it can neuer happen otherwyse. In suche maner of whyse meaned saynt Iohan in those wordes, when he sayd he that is borne of god synneth not, for he hath the seed of god in hym/ and therfore he can not synne, bycause he is borne of god/ he ment I saye, not that it is impossyble for hym to synne dedely, but yt it is a great helpe and occasyon to kepe hym from dedely synne. Yet wyll not Tyndale let to stycke styll in hys errour, & saye that saynt Iohan playnely ment, that it is impossyble for hym to synne that hath the seed of god in hym. For he sayth that he whyche onys hath the seed in hym, can not synne after dedely by no maner menys, bycause he hath the seed of god in hym onys. To thys I saye that in ys sample that I before dyd put, neyther the man nor the wyfe that come to gether for great loue can fall to aduow- try, bycause the loue whyche is in ec=he of them towarde the other=, can not suffer it. And truth it is as longe as it lasteth & endureth in them. But eyther of them both yet, may so farre fall in loue with some other, that the hote loue whych they had bytwene them selfe, may cole and clene be quenched/ as is the fyre wyth castynge on water inough. Saynt Iohan therfere wrytynge those wordes, and vnderstandynge as in dede he doth, not after a sophystycall fasshyon, yt it were vtterly impossyble for hym at any tyme after to synne dedely, that hath onys ys seed of god in hym/ [gi] but well and resonably menyng after the comon maner of spekyng, yt it shalbe a great occasyon for hym to abyde good styll, & that as long as the man kepeth ys seed of god (whyther saynt Iohan toke it for lyuely fayth, grace, or the spyrit of god) & cleueth there vnto, so longe he can not synne dedely: saynt Iohan I say so sayeng & so menynge, spake as bycame the ryght euangelyst of Cryst. But Tindale telling saynt Iohans tale, & menyng thereby as he wolde make vs wene that saynt Iohan ment, that is to wit yt who so euer is onys borne of god, neyther shall synne after dedely nor neuer can, bycause ys seed of god is in him able to preserue the man & to kepe out synne/ speketh as wysely as yf he wolde fyrst make me this argument: He yt turneth ys spyt sitteth by the fyre/ but he that sitteth by the fyre can not be a colde, bycause he hath a good fire by hym: ergo he that turneth the spyt can not be a colde. And when he had made vs onys this argument, wolde then wene he had playnly proued, yt who so euer ha spytte, coulde neuer be a colde after in all his lyfe. For surely after Tyndals vnderstandyng of saynt Iohans wordes, the reason is mych lyke. For lykewise as while a man sitteth by the fyre he can not be a cold, bycause ye fire is by hym that kepeth hym warm: so while the seed of god is in the man he can not synne, bycause the seed of god beynge in hym doth kepe & preserue hym from synne. But lyke wyse as the broche turner that sitteth warme by the fire, may let the spitte stande, & suffre the mete to burne, and walke him selfe out in tlle snow tyll his teeth chater in his hed for colde, and neuer catche hete agayne but fall starke dede on the grownd: so he yt is onys goddes chyld, & hath the seed of god in hym, & therfore can not synne dedely as longe as he kepeth it and cleueth faste vnto it, may by the foly & frowardnes of his owne fre will expell the seed of god, & reiecte his grace, & neclecte his holy spyryte, and fall to dedely synne, & continue therin, & dye therin, & go to the deuyll therin to. And so as it is trewe to saye, that he which hath a good fyre by hym can not be a colde, menyng therby as long as he kepeth hym by it: so is it trew to say, that who so haue ye seed of god in hym can not synne dedely, menyng thereby as longe as he kepeth it. And thus ment saynt Iohan. And as he that wolde say who so sitteth by the fyre can neuer be a cold, menyng therby that he could neuer go from the fyre & so catche cold after, were a very starke fole: so he [giv] that wold say that who so haue the seed of god in hym can not synne/ menyng therby that he could neuer after lese yt seed, by the foly or froward- nesse of his owne wyll, & therby synne dedely and be dampned to, were mych more then mad. And syrs thus meneth Tyndale/ and wold make vs all so wyse, as to wene that saynt Iohan ment so to/ wherof we se playne the contrary, not onely by many other playne places of scrypture, but also by many other places of saynte Iohan in the selfe same pystle, wyth all the olde holy sayntes that euer ex- pouned that pystle of saynt Iohan. And syth Tindale so styffely stycketh in this poynt, that the seed of god onys had in a mannes harte, doth kepe hym for euer after from euery dedely synne: let hym tell vs wherfore it kepeth hym not for euer from euery dedely synfull dede. For Tyndale sayth hym selfe, that though the seed shall kepe hym from all dedely synne/ yet it shall not kepe hym from aduowtry, nor manslaughter, nor such other horryble dedes, as poore vnlerned people in some contreys be wont to call dedely synnes. And therfore good crysten reders, I shall in this poynt ende wyth the good holsome counsayle of saynt Iohan, by whych in the selfe same pystle agaynst Tyndale, expressely he byddeth vs all beware of all suche heretykes, as wolde make vs wene yt some were goddes wanton cokneys in such a speciall wyse, yt what so euer they do no thyn ould displease hym/ & some other so lytell set by and so farre out of hys fauour, ys no repentaunce, no penaunce, no fayth, none hope, no loue of god and theyr neyghbour, coulde brynge them in hiS fauour. Agaynst which fond and frantyke imagynacyon/ saynt Iohan, though he say who so euer confesse yt Iesus is ys son of god dwelleth in hym & he in hym: yet he warneth vs well and playnely, ys he wolde no man sholde begyle vs, and make vs wene that wyth yt con- fessyon and that bylyefe alone he were a good man/ but sayth, by thys shall ye se who be chyldren of god, and who chyldren of the deuyll/ for he yt is not ryghtuous is not of god. And sayth also, lytle chyldren let no man begyle you / he yt doth ryghtuousnesse is ryghtuous, and he ys doth synne is of ys deuyll. Now may we clerely perceyue, that these onely wordes of saynt Iohan vtterly destroye Tyndals heresye, grounded vppon hys false exposycion of saynt Iohans other wordes. For when saynt Iohan sayth here hym selfe, that the chyldren of god and the chyldren of the deuyll be manyfest and [gi] open by theyr outward workes: how can that stande with Tyndals exposycyon and hys heresye dependynge theruppon, by whyche he sayth that the trew membres of the elect chyrch, may fall into the doyng of horryble dedes, thorowe the frute of the synne remaynyng in theyr membres, & vppon great occasyons brekyng out of theyr membres/ & yet for all those horryble dedys done by them they be the chyldren of god styll, & neuer become ys children of ys deuyll for all ys doing of theyr horrible dedes, bycause they do them not of malyce nor of purpose, but of fraylty onely & weykenes. Ye se good reders openly, that yf Tyndale in thys hys heresye & false exposycyon of saynte Iohan sayd trew/ then sholde saynt Iohan hym selfe say vntrew, where he sayth ys by the outwarde dedes, the chyldren of god and the chyldren of the deuyll be made manyfest & open. For they were not open by the dede, yf notwythstandyng the most horryble dedes ys coulde be deuysed, yet theyr secret vnknowen fayth & frayltye dyd euer kepe it secrete hydde & vnknowen, whyther they were at the dede doyng ys chyldren of god or the deuyll. And therfore where as Tyndale wold make vs wene, yt hym selfe & hys holy felowes had by theyr felynge fayth the spyryte of god, in such a specyall maner entred in to theyr holy brestes, ys none of theyr abomynable dedes coulde be any dedely synne, bycause ys the spyryte sayth he dwelleth styll within them: saynt Iohan sayth in the very ende of that thyrde chapyter, who so kepeth goddes com- maundementes, in hym god dwelleth. And by that marke we know sayth saynt Iohan, ys there is dwellynge in vs of the spyryt ys he hath gyuen vs. By whych wordes he declareth clerely, ys when these holy heretykes breke his commaundementes, by those horryble dedes which Tyndale hym selfe confesseth yt they do, & as all the worlde seeth frere Luther do, in weddyng the nunne, wyth the brech of theyr both vowys agaynst the commaundement of god, which hath in holy scripture expressely commaunded them to kepe and fulfyll theyr vowys: saynt Iohan I saye declareth agaynste Tyndals doctryne clerely, that when we se suche dedes in them, we maye well perceyue by them that there is at that tyme neuer a whyt of goddes good spyryte in them. But now no man dowteth whyther of the two, better vnderstode saynt Iohan/ whyther Tyndale or saynt Iohan hym selfe. And ther- fore good crysten readers, whyle ye se [giv] that these holy fathers and authours of these heresyes, prechynge so sayntly of theyr felynge fayth, boste them self and theyr felowes for the sure chyldren of god, that bycause of the spyryte can neuer synne of purpose, and therfore neuer synne dedely, but be certayne and sure of grace and saluacyon/ and yet ye se for all this, that beyng professed munkes and freres, they fall to the fleshely felynge of nonnes, of longe purpose, and styll perceuer therin, & fynally dyuers dye therin to: ye maye byleue here saynte Iohan, that saye they what they wyll, they be the deuyls chyldren in dede, & all theyr holy doctryne is vtterly no thynge ellys but very frantyke blasphemy. And therfore fynally, where as Tyndale knytteth vp all hys mater wyth a quyppe agaynste me, and sayth that bycause euery man that onys hath the ryght fayth is born of god, and therby hath the seed of god in hym, whych preserueth hym so that he can neuer synne/ therfore it is sayth he a false conclusyon that M. More holdeth, how a man maye haue a ryght fayth ioyned wyth all kyndes of abomy- nacyon and synne: ye se now that hys owne conclusyon is so clerely proued false, that it letteth my conclusyon no thynge at all. And yet shall I forther towche hys quyppe where it shall haue better place, after that we shall come to the chapyters, in whyche he shall open and declare hys vttermost what he calleth fayth. But fyrste wyll I consyder a lytell hys ferther progresse in thys chapyter, in whych he goth forth in thys wyse. Tyndale. And yet euery member of Crystes congregacyon is a synner, and synneth dayly some more and some lesse. For it is wryten.I. Iohan .I. yf we saye we haue no synne, we deceyue our selues and the trueth is not in vs. And agayn, yf we saye we haue not synned, we make hym a lyar and hys worde is not in vs. And Paul Rom. 7. sayth, That good whych I wolde that do I not/ but that euyll whyche I wolde not that do I. So it is not I that do it (sayth he) but synne that dwelleth in me. More. Lo now ye here hys wurshypfull rydle/ in the fyrst part wherof he hath all redy shewed vs, that a trewe member of Crystes chyrch syn- neth not, bycause it hath ys ryght fayth/ and so is borne agayne of god and hath hys spyryt, and bycause of that can neuer synne. And now he sheweth vs in the tother parte of hys rydle, that euery treWe member of [gi] Crystes chyrche, for all that he neuer synneth yet he synneth dayly. And as he proued the fyrste parte by the wordes of saynt Iohan falsely taken and vnderstanden/ so doth he now proue vs the seconde parte by the wordes of saynt Poule, vnderstanden & construed as falsely as euer he construed saynt Iohan. For where as saynt Poule in hys pystle to ys Romayns, speketh of the pronytye and mocyons in the fleshe remaynynge, as the relyques of orygynall synne, wherby we be tycled towarde great actuall dedely synnes, and dayly fall in to venyall: Tyndale as appereth by hys wordes nexte after folowynge, wolde we sholde wene that saynt Poule meneth, that euery trew member may dayly fall into great horryble dedes, as periury, manslaughter, and aduowtry, of weykenes and fraylte/ and that all those abomynable dedes be no dedely synnes yet but venyall euerychone, bycause it is not the man that doth it, but the synne that dwelleth in hym. And whyle saynte Poule sayth the wordes of hym selfe/ Tyndale so layeth them forth, that he wolde we sholde take it that saynt Poule hym selfe, or at the lest wyse yf not hym selfe yet the synne that dwelled in hym, commytted in very dede many suche horryble dedes, as the deuyll and the fleshe dyd moue and styre hym to. And then was it well lykely that he dyd inough. For well ye wote ys deuyll wolde not fere to set hys fleshe on fyre, and tempte hym to lechery & manslaughter both/ whyle he fered not to tempte our sauyour hym selfe, to glotony, couetyse, & pryde, deuyll worshyp and selfe slaughter to. And saynt Poule hym self confesseth, that for a medlcyne preseruatyue agaynst pryde, there was gyuen hym the angell of Sathan, the prycke ofthe flesh, to dabbe hym in the necke and make hym stowpe and bete hym. And it appereth playnely, that Tyndale taketh saynte Poulys wordes spoken of hym selfe, to sygnyfye not onely styrynge and incytacyons towarde dedely synfull dedes/ but also the very dedes commytted and done as he calleth it of fraylte, by the vyolence of those mocyons. For yf he meane not so / he layed those wordes nothyng to hys purpose, as it appereth openly by those hys owne wordes folowynge. Tyndale. Thus are we synners and no synners. No synners yf thou loke vnto the pro[giv]fessyon of our hartes towarde the lawe of god, on our repentaunce and sorow that we haue, bothe bycause we haue synned and also bycause we be yey full of synne styll, and vnyo the promyses of mercy in our sauyour Cryste and vnto our fayth. Synners are we, yf thou loke vnto the frayltye of our flesshe, whyche is as the weakenesse of one that is newly recouered out of a greate dysease/ by the reason wherof our dedes are imperfet, and by the reason wherof also when occasyons be greate, we fall into horrible dedes, and the frute of the synne whych remayneth in our membres breketh out. Notwithstandynge yet the spyryte leueth vs not, but rebuketh vs and bryngeth vs home agayne vnto our professyon/ so that we neuer caste of the yoke of god from our neckes, neyther yelde vp our selues vnto synne for to serue it, but fyghte a freshe and begynne a new batayle. More. Lo good crysten reders, here haue ye herde a full vncrysten tale of an euyll crysten man. For now se ye clerely that by playne expresse wordes, Tyndale telleth vs that a trew member of Crystes chyrche breketh out in to horryble dedes when the occasyons be great/ and yet he sayth that for all that he synneth not dedely. And thys is the thynge, for the profe wherof he bryngeth forth hys fore rehersed wordes of saynt Poule/ by whyche he wolde make it seme, that saynt Poule dyd hym selfe so to. And yet kepeth he hys accustumed guyse as farre as he can, in couerynge hym selfe and colourynge hys mater from knowlege. And therfore he cometh in wyth synnynge and yet not synnyng. And for the redyng of that rydle, he sayth that the trew members of Crystes chyrch are synners and yet no synners. And amonge them he setteth hym selfe/ sayenge of hym selfe and hys felowes, we be no synners yf thou loke vppon the professyon of our hartes towarde the law of god, and on our repentaunce and sorowe that we haue synned and also bycause we be yet full of synne styll, and on to the promyses of mercy that is in our sauyour Cryst and vnto our fayth. And synners are we, yf thou loke to the frayltye of our fleshe by whiche we fall into horryble dedes, and the frute of synne whych remayneth in our membres breketh out. Here wolde I that Tyndale sholde somwhat more clerely tell vs what he meaneth in thys mater / whyther he meane that a trew member synneth not dedely all the whyle that he resysteth, and doth not the synfull horryble dede, as for ensample manslaughter or aduoutry. And that then agayne he synneth not, when that after the dede done he repenteth and is sory for hys euyll dede, and ys for- geuen of [gi] god thorowe the promises of mercy in our sauiour Cryste, for the repentaunce & sorow & for the fayth. Let Tyndale I say tell vs whyther he mene thus/ or ellys that hym self & hys other felowes the trew membres of chrystes chyrch, do not synne dedely in the very tyme neyther, in whyche they consent to do those horrible synfull dedes, or rather in the tyme while they be in the doyng/ for consent to the synne he sayth they neuer do. By these wordes of hys we be no synners, yf thou loke to the pro- fession of our hartes to the law of god, & vnto our repentaunce & sorow, that we haue synned/ it may seme that he meneth the fyrst way that is to wyt that they synne not all the while that they resiste the mocion to the dede, & that they synne not also, when that after the dede they take repentaunce & sorow therfore. Now yf he meane to rede hys rydle on thys fashyon/ then he soyleth hys straunge rydle as blountly, as an olde wyfe of Culnam dyd onys amonge scholers of Oxenforde, that sogerned wyth her for deth. Whyche whyle they were on a tyme for theyr sporte purposynge rydles among theym, she bygan to put forth one of hers to/ & sayed arede my ridle, what is that I knewe one that shott at an harte & kylled an haddoke. And when we had euery body mych mused how yt myght be, & than prayed her to declare her ridle her selfe/ after longe request she sayd at the laste, that there was onys a fyssher that came a londe in a place where he sawe an hart and shott thereat, but he hit it not/ & afterwarde he went agayne to the see and caught an haddoke and kylled it. And surely Tyndale redeth hys rydle myche lyke, yf he vnderstande by hys rydle they synne and yet synne not. That they synne not whyle they resiste ye mocions, nor when they repent the dede/ and that they synne whyle they be in doynge. For that is no more to say but in one tyme they synne, and in another they synne not. And when they synne then they synne/ and when they synne not than they synne not. Were not here a wyse rydle wene ye & well declared, yf he mene it thus? And that he so meneth I saye it semeth by hys wordes afore rehersed/ and also by these that he sayth, <2the>2 <2spirit calleth vs home agayne.>2 Whereby it semeth that he meneth, we were onys gone from home and afterwarde be brought agayne. Howe be it on the tother syde, he maye peraduenture mene [giv] by these wordes, we be no synners yf thou loke to the profession of our hartes towarde the lawe of god/ that euyn styll in the very tyme in whyche they go aboute to brynge theyre horrible dedes to passe, and in whych they do theym to/ yet professe they the lawe of god styl with theyre harte. And so may he seme to mene as well by other wordes in ys chapitres folowyng, as by these wordes in thys presente chapytre, where he sayth, <2we caste neuer of theyohe of god from our neckes,>2 <2neyther yelde our selues vnto synnefor to serue it, butfyghte afreshe and be->2 <2gynne a new batayle.>2 By these wordes it semeth, and of trouth so I trow he fully meneth, as appereth by sundry other chapyters of this boke/ & yet moste especyally by hys exposicyon vppon the fyrst pystle of saynt Iohan: yt though they synne in that they haue the mocions of synne, the reliques of oryginall synne remaynyng in the flesshe, yet bycause they be borne of god by the ryghte faythe, that is as Tyndale expouneth yt, by the byliefe of the fayth confessed by saynt Peter, that Iesus is Chryste the son of god & our redemer/ and bycause they haue that bylyefe, not only thorow the wordes of men preched vnto theym, whyche faythe is as he saythe hereafter but hystoricall, faynte and sone goone/ but haue yt grauen in theyr hartys by god (whych he calleth hereafter the felynge fayth) by whyche fayth he sayth that they fele theym selfe to byleue in god, & put theyr hole hope and truste of saluacyon in god, by the passyon of Chryste without any respecte of any good workes/ & fele and be sure that god loueth theym, & that they be in hys fauour, & be trew chosen membres of his elect chyrch, and shall neuer be dampned/ and by thys felyng faythe be borne of god, & that therfore they haue the spyryt of god in theym, by reason wherof they can neuer synne dedely/ for ys spyryt (sayth he) shall neuer suffer theym to synne of purpose, but all the horryble dedes that they shall do, shalbe onely of wekenes and frayletye of the flesshe vppon grete occasyons, when the frute of synne that remayneth in theyre membres breketh owte: for thys cause he sayth that though the mocyon of the fleshe towarde horryble dedes be synne, and therfore they synne/ yet bycause of theyr felyng fayth, they kepe styll in theyre hartes theyre professyon towarde the lawe of god. And when they haue done the dedes & taken a fall/ yet caste they neuer of the yoke of god of theyr nekkes/ nor yelde them self vnto synne to serue it, but when [hi] the rage is ones passed, then ryse vp lyke lusty galyardes agayn, & fyght a fresh, & cry a new feld a new, & begynne a new batayle/ & then is (saith he) all forgiuen them quyte, & they clene assoyled of god both from synne & payne/ & no payne shall suffer any tyme after for the synne passed before, neyther in purgatory nor in thys worlde neyther. And therfore neyther in goynge about theyr horryble dedes, nor in the commyttyng of them/ he sayth they neuer synne dedely nor neuer can, be the dede neuer so abomynable. And suche as farre lesse were dedely and dampnable in a nother man, that were not so borne of god by suche a felynge fayth as they be, nor hadde receyued the seed of god in hym as they haue/ whyche seed ones had can =neuer suffer them to synne of purpose, and therfore neuer dedely after. All be it that as I haue often tolde you, Tyndale partely for the vncertayntye of hym selfe in hys opynyons, after whyche he grysped and longe felte aboute here and there in the darke, ere euer he well wyste where he wold reste and setle hym selfe/ and partely bycause he perceyued in hys owne conscyence hys heresves not onely so noughty, but also so sottisshe that he was ashamed of them/ and therfore euer so labored to set hys wordes in suche obscure & dowt- full fashyon, that he myghte haue alwaye some refuge at some start- ynge hole: yet of very trouth in conclusyon, when he sawe the worlde wax in some partys of Almayne so surely fyxed and confermed in all kynde of heresyes, ys there coulde none errour so folysshe nor so frantyke be deuysed, but a man myghte be bolde to set it forth, & sholde not fayle to fynde fonde felowes inow to folow it/ hopyng then that he sholde lytell & lytell at length brynge the people ofthys realme vnto the same poynt, he hath fynally so set forth the mater in this boke of his answere vnto my dyaloge, & yet mych raore openly in his exposycyon vpon the fyrste pystle of saynt Iohan, that any lerned man which aduysedly redeth those twayne, shall neuer after dowte, but ys his rydle of the trew membre of theyr electe chyrche synnyng euer & yet synning neuer, he meneth very playn & expressely in such marer as I haue now last declared you. And therfore let vs now con- sider how he may mayntayne his menyng, & what good frute wyll folow therupon, in ys felyng of such holy membres. Syth Tyndale agreeth, that bothe Luther & hym selfe, and all other the trewe membres of the electe chyrche, may [hiv] do greate horryble dedes suche as he denyeth not to be in other men dedely and dampnable: we must enserche with hym and aske of hym, what is the thynge that maketh the same horryble dedes whyche sholde be dedely in a nother, to be not dedely in Luther or hym, or any suche other trew membre of theyr electe chyrche. He wyll peraduenture answere vs & say, it is no dedely synne in them, bycause that god doth afterward vpon theyr repentaunce & sorow taken for theyr synne, forgyue them the deth & all maner of payne dew to yt horryble dede by them before committed/ & that therfore it is not dedely to them, bycause by goddes remyssyon and pardon it is prouyded that they shall not dye. Thys answere of Tyn- dale is very slender/ for it implyeth the contrary of yt it sholde proue. For it declareth yt the dede is dedely, & that he synneth dedely. For ellys god dyd not pardon hym the deth vppon hys repentaunce, yf deth were not dew to hys dede. And I do not now lay to them the tyme before theyr consent vnto the dede, nor the tyme of theyr repentaunce after theyr euyll dede/ but the tyme in whych theyr wyll consented and agreed to do it, & the tyme in which they dyd it in dede/ in thys mene tyme say I they synne dedely in dede. Nay sayth Tyndale, for afterwarde we repente, and by and by god forgyueth vs the deth, for hys mercy in our sauyour Chryst, and for our fayth, and for hys promyses. Thys wyse answere is mych lyke, as though he wolde tell vs that one which had robbed a chyrche were a thefe & yet not a thefe. A thefe bycause he had stolen away ys chalyce, & yet not a thefe by- cause ye kyng had gyuen hym a pardon. Tyndale wyll yet happely say, yt the thefe was not sure before ys he shold haue his pardon after/ but Luther & he & such other trew membres of theyr electe chyrch, be sure by goddes promises, yt vpon theyr repentaunce they shall haue theyr pardon. But then aske we hym agayne, though he knowe by the promyse that vpon repentaunce he shall haue pardon/ how knoweth he and what promyse hath he, that when he hath commytted horryble dedes, he shall haue after the grace gyuen hym to take such repent- aunce as ys pardon shall folow. Hereto shall Tyndale saye that hym selfe & hys felowes do fele by theyr felyng fayth, that they be borne of god, and that they haue his seed within them/ by whych they be well assured that they shall neuer do any such dede, as they shall [hi] spyrytually dye for/ but is very sure and feleth well by hys felyng fayth, ys the spyryt wyll call hym home agayn after, be he neuer so farre gone, and wyll cause hym to repente, & so gete hym hys pardon. Of thys opynion be they very surely/ wherof ye se well foloweth no lytell occasyon of bolde settynge forwarde vnto synne. For yf a prynce wolde promyse euery man a perdon byfore hand, yt wold so surely truste vpon his promyse, as what so euer he shold do he wolde not let to come & aske it/ no man dowteth I suppos what plenty thys promyse wold make of all kynde of vnthryftes. But as for god tyhouhys he haue made a trew faythfull promyse of pardon, to all trew repentauntes & penitentes what minde or purpose so euer they had byfore (the truth of which promyse Tyndale yet mystrusteth in them yt synne willyngly & of purpose, & playnely sayth ys they shall neuer haue pardon) yet hath our lordr of his godnes & wysdome left one brydle bounde about mennes heddes to refrayne them from boldenes of synne, ys is to wyt ys they can not after theyr synfull dedes repente agayne of them selfe without his specyall grace. Which though he doth of his goodnes comenly offer / yet be they not put in surty byfore, yt it shalbe so offred vnto them. But ys yf they so boldely make them self sure therof byfore, yt the corage therof gyue them occasyon to synne/ it may be ys cause ys god shall clerely withdraw it from them, & neuer offer it them after. And thys vncertaynty of grace to folow is ye brydle yt refrayneth our boldenes/ where as Tyndale & his holy felowes the trewe membres of Crystes chyrch, feling by theyr feling fayth that after theyr horrible dedes done, they sh take repentaunce & so gete theyr pardon/ haue this brydle of dredye cast of theyr hed, & therfore are redy lyke vnbrydled coltes to runne out at rouers in all horrible dedes whyther so euer ye occasyons of theyr wyld affeccyons, & the synne as Tindale sayth brekyng out in theyr membres, lyst to cary theym. For when they be caryed out vpon occasyons by ye deuyll & ys flesh/ then Tyndale calleth it but frayltye & infyrmyte, & no wyll in no wise nor no malycyous purpose. And therfore of this heresy, without which they can not defende theyr other, ye se what good frute must folow. And yet suppose ys Tyndals false heresy were trew, & yt they were as certayn & sure of repent- aunce, & therby of remissyon & pardon, as they say they be/ this wold not yet mayntayne his mater. For though that a traytoure were so well acquaynted with the condycyon of [hiv] hys kynge, that he veryly knewe that when he hadde all wrought that he coude in his traytorouse purpose agaynst hym, he sholde yet after obtayne his pardon, and therupon boldely so dyd, vpon some occasion and hope of some hygh promocyon, and afterwarde were not deceyued but obtayned hys pardon in dede: yet had he ben for all that a stark traytour in the meane whyle, and hadde dedely trespassed, though the deth folowed not, but the faute were fully forgyuen. And so mych the more traytorouse wretche, in how mych the prynce were of hys nature more benyng and marcyfull. And thus ye se playnely that Tyndale to proue his rydle trewe, that though he synne he synneth neuer dedeli/ muste seke some better shyfte then thys. Tyndale wyll saye that hys felowys & he do not synne dedely in the tyme of the doynge of suche horryble dedes, bycause as they say they do them not of purpose nor wyllyngly, nor do not consent vnto synne to serue it/ but all the whyle that they go there aboute, and all the whyle also in whyche they be in doynge, they resyste it in theyr wylles, & haue styll in theyr hartes theyr professyon to the loue of the lawe, and be sory that they shall breke it/ & fynally do breke it agaynst theyr wyll by greate occasyons gyuen, whyche cary them forth to the doynge of those horryble dedes, in a rage of the synne brekynge out of theyr membres. Whyche horryble dedes after the rage ones passed, they repente all waye and forthwyth be clene for, gyuen. Is not here good reder a goodly defence and a godly? And vn- dowtedly thys is theyr very defence in defendynge them selfe from dedely synne, as Tyndals awne wordes as well in thys chapyter as in other folowynge, do playne and clerely shew. But now seeth euery good chrysten man well inowgh, that they be wyckedly occupyed, in sekyng as holy auid saith, excuses for theyr synne. For there is no man ys doth any suche dede agaynste hys wyll/ but all be it that he resyste ys mocyon of the deuyll and the flesh at the fyrste, & cleuynge to the contrary styrynge of god and hys good angell, repugneth and stryueth agaynste the synne and is peraduenture loth to be brought therto/ whych doyng is very good, and therby good folke fynally caste of and ouercome all those temptacions thorow the grace of god wurkyng with them: yet suche as in conclusyon fall to the doynge of those [hi] horryble dedes whyche they be tempted to, though they be not fully so euyll as other that resyste the deuyll nothynge at all, but rather runne on apace towarde hell them selfe, then tary tyll the deuyll come to cary them/ yet do they vndowtedly thorow theyr owne defaute fall from the grace wyllyngly, that holpe them whyle they resysted.And as it were a cowarde that llad fought a whyle, wolde sodaynly caste awaye bothe bukler and swerde, & fall downe at hys enemyes fete, and yelde hym selfe in to hys enemyes handes: so do these folke which commytte those horryble dedes, after a whyle resystynge, by whyche by goddes helpe they sholde haue had the victory yf they wolde haue perseuered in the fyght/ they chaunge theyr mynde by ys faute of theyr owne fre wyll, thorow the delecta- cyon of the synfull dede, and so consent vnto the same, and then seke them selfe the waye to come therto, and the deuyll helpeth them to fynde it/ and so breke they wyllyngly goddes commaundement, and fulfyll the pleasure of the deuyll and the luste of the fleshe. Whyche wylfull fallynge from god and hys grace, vnto the deuyll and the flesh/ what good man dowteth to be dampnable dedely synne? And therfore whan Tyndale telleth vs that Luther and he and suche other trewe membres of theyr chyrche, whan they commytte ony suche horryble dedes, do not com=mytte theym wyllyngly, bycause they do commytte theym vpon great occasyons, and be caryed awaye spyte of theyr tethe with the rage of the synne that breketh out of theyr membres: sauynge my charyte syr I besllrewe theyr knauysshe membres, out of whiche theyr synne breketh forthe with suche a rage. Let theym cast on colde water with sorow, & quenche that rage. For without the defawte of theyr owne fre wyll, all the deuyls in hell can neuer caste vpon theym suche an hete, that shalbe able to brynge theym into that vyolent inuyncyble rage, to compell theym vnwyllyngly to do suche horryble dedes. For god hathe promysed as in playne scryp- ture appereth, that he wyll neuer so suffre theym. God is faythfull sayth saynt Poule, whiche shall not suffre you to be tempted aboue ys ye may bere / but with the temptacyon shall also make you a way to get out, so that ye may well welde it. And whan saynt Poule hym selfe, leste the reatnes of his hyghe reuelacyons myght aue set hym vp ln an hygh [hiv] pryde, had thorow goddes great mercyfull goodnes the angell of Sathan the prycke of the flesshe, gyuen vnto hym to bete hym, & that in suche wyse that he was fayne thryes to cry to god to take it away: our lord agayne shewed hym that it was not good for hym to lacke it so soone, nor to haue it so sodenly taken away from hym/ but shewed hym that his grace was suffycyent. Whose strengthe in mannes feblenes so worketh with the fre wyll of hym that purposeth to contynue good, that all the deuyls in hell shall neuer be able to put hym in suche a rage, that may cary hym towarde horryble dedes one here bredth forwarde agaynst his wyll. And thus ye se that Tyndale as towchynge his ryall rydle of synnynge and synnynge not, is now brought to that poynt that he can not rede his owne rydle hym self/ excepte he wyll peraduenture saye that it is neuer dedely synne though it be doone wyllyngly, but yf a man consent to the synne, and than wyll vnderstande therby, that he con- senteth not to the synne that consenteth to the dede, but yfhe con- sent that the dede shulde be synne/ & so that he which agreeth to do auoutry doth not synne, bycause he doth not consent that aduoutry shulde be synne, but rather wolde it were none. Excepte Tyndale mene some suche farre fette wyse inuencyon/ elles can I not in good faythe perceyue how he can helpe Luther and hym selfe and other holy heretyques the trewe membres of theyr electe chyrche, from consentynge to synne/ whan they do as he confesseth horryble dedes vpon great occasyons thorow the rage of synne, buddynge and bryngynge forthe the fruyte that bredeth out of theyr vngracious membres. For yf he loke for any helpe of these wordes, where he sayth that they yelde not theym selues vnto syn for to serue it/ as though other folke whan they do synne do entende to serue synne/ but they for holynesse of theyr felynge faythe, in the doynge of theyr synnes do not entende to serue the synne, but to make the synne to serue theym and do theym pleasure at theyr owne luste and lykynge: let hym for answere loke how saynt Austayne mocketh in lyke case an olde fylosopher/ whiche beynge asked why he was not ashamed to haue an harlot as other rybaudes had, answered for his defence that there was great dyfference bytwene his dede & theyrs. For as for theym they had not the harlot but the harlot had theym. But as for hym he had the harlot & not the harlot hym. And ther was by saynt Sym, [hi] reason and a trym. A fayre bost for a phylosofer to haue an harlot at his wyll, that lay with euery man bysyde at her wyll. Now Tyndale maketh here a lyke boste for to excuse hym and his felowes, saycnge, <2wefall whan the occasyons be great into horryble dedes, and the fruyte of the>2 <2synne whiche remayneth in our membres breketh out, butyet we neueryelde our>2 <2selues vnto synne to serue it/>2 menyng of lykelyhed that the synne shall serue them, as the harlot dyd the folyshe phylosofer. But our sauyour hym selfe wypeth a way clene all the wor- shyp of Tyndales worde, whan he sayth playnly that who so euer do synne, is by the doynge bycome the bonde thrall of synne. And so by ye very trewe tale of Chryst, Tyndales false tale is auoyded. For whan so euer he yeldeth hym selfe to do horryble dedes, whiche he sayth they fall in vpon great occasyons, whan the fruyte of the synne remaynynge in theyr myscheuous membres breketh out at large/ than forthwith for all theyr felynge fayth, by theyr foule fleshly felynge in the doynge theyr fylthy deuelyshe dede, they yelde them selues to serue the synne, and by the synne to serue the deuyll/ & the deuyll to serue them agayne, fyrste here for a lytell whyle with a lytell fylthy pleasure, and after in hell for euer with blowynge the fyre aboute them. For as towchyng Tyndales wordes folowynge, where he sayth they wyll ryse and fyght a freshe and begynne a new batayle: these wordes make nothynge to the purpose / for they were neuer able to ryse agayne alone. And yf god lyfte them vp as many tymes he dothe/ yet were they not sure that he so wolde for he dothe not euer so to euery man. And of which sorte hym selfe is, that can he neuer tell what so euer he bable. And also yf he dyd alway so, & that they were also sure byfore that he wold allway so do after/ yet can it not serue Tyndale in this poynt. For we speke of the dedely synne in the tyme of his fall, and of the seruitude and thraldom that he lyeth in, all the whyle that he lyeth prostrate vnder the deuyls fote, and not that after that god hath goten hym vp agayne/ and therfore those wordes wyll not helpe. How be it of trouthe Tyndales wordes wryten a lytell before, yf they were trewe as they be not, wolde make more for the profe of his purpose/ where he saythe that thoughe they fall into horryble dedes, vpon great occasyons whan the frute of the synne remaynynge in theyr flesshe breketh [hiv] out of theyr membres, yet they neuer caste of the yoke of god fro theyr neckes. These wordes yf they were trewe, wolde make in dede somwhat for theyr purpose. For yf it so were that for all the doynge of theyr horryble dedes, they dyd neuer cast of the yoke of god fro theyr neckes: than myght it seme that in the tyme of the doynge they dyd not yet synne dedely, syth theyr neckes were yet styll bounden within the yoke of obedyence to the loue of god, & that they had not shaken that yoke of. But of truthe those wordes are vntrew. For whan they do those horryble dedes, whiche god hathe vpon peyne of eternall dethe precysely forboden them/ & whiche no temptacyon can cause thern so to do agaynst theyr wyll, but that they myghte by goddes helpe leue yt vndone yf they wolde, syth god neuer vseth to deny the helpe of his grace, tyll man leue of his holde by slouth or frowardnes of his owne fre wyll/ therfore I say whan they do those horryble dedes thorough the frute of theyr synne brekynge out of theyr bestely membres, they do by the dysobeyng of his precepte, shake of the yoke of god for the whyle/ as an euyll tatched horse shakes of somtyme the brydle & runneth out at large. And than agayne yf it happen that at goddes callynge on, they repent & do penaunce, & Purpose to amende & be better, than is the yoke put on agayne/ as an vnbrydled horse somtyme whan he is folowed standeth styll & stayeth at his mayster his whystelyng, and suffreth his brydle to be put on agayne. Now yf Tyndale say styll, that bycause of his felynge fayth, whiche whan he hathe ones goten he sayth he can neuer lese after, and that therfore he can neuer after do dedely synne, not euen whyle he is in the doynge of suche horryble dedes, as he consenteth that he may fall in thorow the frute of the synne that breketh out of his membres: I wolde aske hym yet ones agayne, what is ye thynge that after the rage passed he so sore shuld repent and sorowe. For as hym selfe sayth, that thorow suche repentaunce he may haue remyssyon/ why shuld he be so sory for the dede, to the entent to be by sorowfull repentaunce made partener of pardon and mercy and restored to lyfe, yf he com- mytted in the doyng no maner of dedely synne. If he say for sorowe that he hathe offended god, whiche [ii] greueth hym for the loue & reuerence that he bereth hym, and not for any fere of hell/ whiche fere is but seruyle and bonde, and ther- fore not metely for suche holy folke as Luther is and hym selfe: I answere hym yf that he say trew, that he consented not, but all was done agayne his wyll/ god was not angry with hym nor offended by hym, nor his synne no synne at all. For as saynt Austayn sayth, yf it be done without the wyll it is not synne. Fynally yf he stycke styll in this poynt, that in ys doynge of tliose horryble dedes, theyr lyuely felynge fayth, whiche can not as they say but worke well, standeth styll in theym all the whyle that they be thorow the frute of the synne that breketh out of theyr membres/ and that they therfore do not those horryble synfull dedes them selfe, but dede all the whyle they be in doynge, and do not consent nor agre there vnto, nor do it not with theyr harte but onely with theyr mem- bres: it wylbe then a wonderous case in my mynde to consyder, what maner a medytacyon and what maner conflycte haue they in them selfe bytwene theyr harte and theyr membres, when the frute of the synne that remayneth in theyr flesshe agaynst the professyon of theyr harte to the lawe of god, breketh out of theyr membres into suche horryble dedes, as take theyr bodyes that were the membres of god, and make them as saynt Poule sayth the membres of a stynkynge harlot. Fyrst when the deuyll vpon some syght of a wanton woman, putteth that sug- gestyon in theyr hartes/ they make no crosse of lykelyhed neyther on theyr forehed nor on theyr brest nor any wher about theyr body. For suche blessynge and crossynge Tyndale calleth waggynge with fyngers in the ayre, and dum ceremonyes and ymage seruyce. But lyke holy spyrytuall fathers borne agayne of god and the spyryte, they resyste manfully fyrste, and a great whyle. But whan they resorte vnto her and talke with her more and more, and all agaynste theyr wyll ye wote well/ for the deuyll dryueth them thyther, and he must nedes go whom the deuyll dryueth: then all the way they go they say to god and them selfes, ywys though I go thyther with my fete, yet I wyll not agre to go thyther with myne harte lo. Nor I wold not come at her at all good lorde, sauynge that vpon the great occasyon that I had when I saw her ones/ I then lyked her so well that I [iiv] am now caryed thyder euen in a rage. But yet for all ye rage I wyll not cast of thy yoke good lord, but I wyll cary thy yoke styll about my necke to bedde with her, & put it about her necke to, & yoke vs bothe to gether. And yet after all this lo, when all the rage is paste ys now haryeth me forth in an hete thorow the frute of synne, which remayn- ynge in my flesshe, breketh out of my members/ then wyll I repent it good lorde & be sory therfore, and retourne agayne from her to the, or ellys brynge her yoked with me to. And then wyll I pray the of pardon. And then thou must nedes good lorde forthwith at the fyrst worde, gyue me full remyssyon of synne & payne, & all by our holy father the popys leue, so that I shall neuer be punysshed therfore neyther in hell, purgatory, nor in this world neyther. And this good mynde good lorde wyll I kepe styll and neuer let it fall out of my harte/ so that all the whyle that I lye bassyng with Besse, & I am doynge yt horryble dede with my body/ yet wyll I neuer agre therto wyth my harte. Or yf I myshappe for weykenes and fraylte to consent vnto the dede/ yet wyll I neuer consent to the synne of the dede/ for it shafl neuer be synne by my consent. Or yf I do consent to the synne/ yet wyll I not consent of purpose & of malyce as the deuyll doth, but of weykenes and fraylty as other holy folke do. Nor at the ferthest I wyll consent no ferther to the synne, but that the synne shall serue me, & not I to serue the synne in no wyse, I wyll be well ware of that. For I thanke the good lorde the seed of thy spyryt that thorow my felyng fayth is in me, can neuer suffer my harte to consent to be seruaunte to any synne, how horryble synnys & how many so euer my membres do. And therfore euyn whyle I am in doyng/ ye thanke be thyne good lorde I do neuer synne dedely, nor neuer shall, nor can/ nor neuer am by any synne out of thy fauour nor neuer stande out of the state of grace for any synne that I do or can do, be they neuer so many or neuer so horryble/ and suche as one of these peuyshe popysh papystes shall be dampned to the deuyll, yf they do but the fyftenth parte of some suche one, and all for faute of suche a felynge fayth, and suche good medytacyons as I haue. Is not here a godly medytacyon trow ye? Forsothe I suppose ye shall not fynde suche a nother in all the medytacyons of saynt Barnarde, as holy a man as he was. And I assure you Tyndale and hys felowys, yf theyr holy heresyes be trewe/ muste nedys in the doynge of euery such hor[ii]ryble dede as Tyndale telleth vs that they fall in, by the ragyouse occasyons of the synne brekyng out oftheyr wredchcd membres/ they must I say nedes haue some such maner of medyta- cyon in theyr holy hartes, yf they shall both do those llorryble dedys, & yet in the tyme of the doyng neuer consent vnto the synne to serue it, but contynually kepe styll in theyr myndes the professyon & purpose towarde the law of god/ & in all ye tyme of theyr horryble doyng/ neuer onys shake of ys yocke of theyr bond toward god/ but both abyde bounden styll vnto god, and yet ronne lose at large after the deuyll. These twayne bothe at onys wythout some suche medy- tacyon can neuer stande to gyther. Fynally for conclusyon of this his worshypfull chapyter of euer synnynge & neuer synnynge, where as Tyndale as though he had clerely proued the thyng wherof he proueth nothyng, concludeth agaynst me in thys wyse, <2And therfore it is a fals conclusion that M. More>2 <2holdeth, how that a man may haue a ryghtefayth ioyned with all kynde of all>2 <2abominaeyon and synne:>2 I conclude agaynst Tindale ys he concludeth clerely ye same. And yet conclude I farther for all yt, that I concluded trew & that be concludeth false. And thus bycause ys in this chapiter Tindale is as it semeth by his euer synnynge & neuer synnynge, set vpon redyng of rydles for his recreacyon: I put hym my rydle to, ys he & I be agreed, & yet we be not agreed/ & that he saytll as I say, and yet I say not as he sayth. For where as I sayd & trew I sayde that a ryghte fayth may stande & abyde with all abomyna- cyon/ menyng therby that the trew ryght bylyefe of all the artycles of ye catholyke fayth maye be in a man, & yet he may (that bylyefe styll standyng) fall in to many dedely synnes, without any wrong opynion taken agaynst the ryght bylyefe: now cometh Tyndale & agreeth vnto that, so yt he & I be therin agreed. But than wolde he fayne saue his worshyp with sayeng nay/ & therfore he denyeth that we be agreed. For he sayth ys the thyng which I call the ryght fayth, is not the ryghte fayth. For though a man byleue sayth he neuer so ryght, without any wronge opynion in any artycle of the fayth/ yet but yf he haue trewe trust & full vndowted hope in god, & cheryte therwith also, which sayth he must nedes ensew therupon, els hath he no ryghte fayth. And so Tyndale auoydeth me not with any prouynge, that abomynacyon and synne can not stande wyth the thynge that is in dede a ryghte fayth/ but that [iiv] abomynable synne can not stande with the thynge whych hym selfe calleth the ryght fayth/ by- cause it pleaseth not hym to call a ryght fayth, that bylyefe that is right inough and hath none artycle wronge therin for as farforth as perteyneth to the nature of onely fayth, but yf it be both fayth and hope and cheryte to/ wherin amonge all lerned men that here vs bothe and se hys sotle shyfte, he wynneth so mych worshyp therby, that he maye surely be mych ashamed therof, as often as he thynketh therof But marke well good reder, that he commeth forth after and sayth, that hym selfe and suche other hys holy companyons the trewe membres of theyr electe chyrch, as haue ye ryght fayth and the felynge fayth to, that is to wytte after hys owne doctryne full fayth full hope and cheryte bothe, so surely that it can neuer fall from theym/ maye yet for all theyr ryght fayth fall into abomynable synfull dedes, vpon great occasyons brekyng out of the frute of the synne that remayneth in theyr synfull membres/ and maye for a space perseuer in those horryble synfull dedes, and yet all that whyle theyr ryght fayth doth contynue, and theyr abomynable synfull dedes to gyder. And so by Tindale hym selfe all abomynacyon and synne maye stande to gyther wyth the ryght fayth, that is not onely wyth the ryght bylyefe alone as I affermed, but wyth the ryght bylyefe & wyth good hope & cheryte to as Tyndale sayth, whyche I say is playnely false. For surely the thynne sotelty therof my groce wytte can in no wyse perceyue.  And thus good chrysten reders for conclusyon, ye now clerely se to what folysshe conclusyon he hath brought hym selfe in conclusyon/ and all thys chapyter of his with his royall rydle of synnynge and not synnynge, is royally ronne to ryghte nought. [ii] How a chrysten maH can not erre, and how he may yet erre. Tyndale. AND as they synne not, so they erre not. And on the tother syde as they synne, so they erre/ but neuer vnto deyh and damnacyon. For they neuer synne of purpose, nor holde any errour malycyously synnynge agaynste the holy goost/ but of weakenes and infyrmitye. As good obedyent chyldren, though they loue theyr faders com- maundementes, yet breke them ofte by the reason of theyr weakenes. And as they can not yelde them selues bond vnto synne to serue it/ euyn so they can not erre in any thynge that sholde be agaynste the promyses whiche are in Chryste. And in other thynges theyr errours be not vnto dampnacyon, yhough they be neuer so greate, bycause they holde them not malycyously. More. I Shall good chrysten readers make no longe worke aboute thys chapyter. For syth the hole somme therof is as ye se no thynge ellys in effecte, but that the trew membres of Tyndals electe chyrche, do often erre and yet neuer erre, euyn in lyke maner as they often or rather alwaye synne and yet neuer synne/ whyche hys manyfolde folyshe heresyes in euer synnynge and neuer synnynge, I haue many maner wyse playnely refelled and confuted in the chapyter nexte before: I maye therfore & wyll take a great dele the lesse laboure and busynesse in thys. I wyll therfore but put you in remembraunce that all hys mater standeth onely in thys, that hys trewe membres of hys electe chyrche, after that they haue onys goten the trewe fayth tllat saynt Peter con- fessed/ vnderstandyng the same in suche erronyous wyse as Luther and Tyndale teche them wyth many playne pestylent heresyes ther- in, as I haue before openly and clerely declared you/ and when that they haue onys attayned that fayth, not wyth an hystorycall maner as a man maye beleue a story, but wyth a felyng fasshyon as the chyld byleueth that the fyre is hote, bycause he hath burned hys fynger, as Tyndale wyll tell you in a nother chapyter after/ who so (sayth he) hath onys in suche a fasshyon attayned and goten that fayth/ that is [iiv] to wytte who so euer is ones enfect with those heresyes, in such a fast felyng fashyon, can neuer after erre dampn- ably. And why? For two causes sayth Tyndale. One bycause ys lyke as they can not synne of purpose, but of weykenesse & infyrmyte/ so can he neuer erre in any thynge at all, yt shuld be agaynst the pro- myses that are in Chryste. A nother cause is, bycause what other errour so euer such a trew faythfull electe member of his electe chyrch happen to falle into, so that it be not agaynst the promyses that are in Chryst, can not be dampnable be it neuer so grete/ all though the trueth that is contrary to that errour, be wryten sayth Tyndale euyn in the very gospell it selfe. And why can it be no dedely synne? bycause sayth Tindale that an elected member of his, can not holde it malycyously. So that by this ye maye clerely se, that Tyndale affermeth & techeth for a treuth, that in all other thinges bysyde the promyses / a trewe member of hys electe chyrche maye somtyme erre, but neuer malycyously / and that is to wytte neuer but of weykenesse and infyrmyte, as hym selfe hath often all redy declared. And therfore they can not in any suche thynge synne dedely nor dampnably, be the thynge neuer so greate, and also wryten in the very gospell as he sayth after to. By thys also ye may clerely se, that concernyng the promyses that are in Chryst/ he sayth that a trew member can not erre at all, neyther malycyously nor of fraylte. For syth he graunteth errour of infyrmyte in other thynges onely that towch not the promyses/ ye may clerely perceyue that concernynge the promyses he holdeth that a trew member of his electe chyrch can not erre at all in any maner of wyse, neyther of malyce, nor purpose, nor fraylte, nor weykenes, nor infyrmite. So yt as he putteth in all other poyntes, onely maly- cyouse errour to be dedely synne & dampnable/ so putteth he con- cernyng the promyses, euery maner of errour to be dedely synne and dampnable/ be it of purpose and malice, or of infyrmyte, fraylte, or weykenes/ and for that cause a trew member of his electe chyrche can neuer fall therin. For yf he ment not thus, he wolde not so deuyde these two kyndes of errour/ one agaynst the promyses, and the other agaynst other thinges, as ye se hym do/ but yf it were to teche vs that the tone were dedely synne and dampnable euery waye, and the tother neuer dampnable, but yf it were [ii] holden of malice/ and that therfore the trew member of his electe chyrch maye erre in the tone kynde, so it be not malycyously, bycause that ellys it is not dampnable nor dedely synne. But in the totlier coiicernyng the pronnyses, he can neuer erre at all. And why? but bycause that euery errour therin were dedely synne and dampnable/ & that one of his heresyes is as ye haue herd byfore, that a trew member of the elected chyrchc can neuer synne dedely. And thys ye se therfore is hys playne doctryne/ whych what treuth it hath we shall nowe playnely shew you. Let vs fyrst begynne with errours agaynst ys promyses in Chryst. And therin let Tyndale tell vs fyrste wherfore a trew member of his electe chyrch, can not erre in any thynge that is agaynst the promyses yt be in Chryst/ in suclle wyse as they may in other great artycles of the fayth, that be no promyses. What hath he other to say, but by- cause ys euery maner errour though it be not holden malycyously, is yet dedely synne & dampnable, yf it towch any promyse/ and that none other errour is dedely synne or dampnable, whyche towcheth no promyse, but yf it be holden malycyously. Then must we forther aske hym, wherby he woteth and wherby he proueth, yt euery maner errour in euery artycle of any promyse ys is in Chryst, is dedely synne & dampnable, though it come but of weykenes and fraylty/ and none errour in any other artycle, be it neuer so great is dampnable & dedely, but yf it be holden of malyce. We must aske hym wherby he knoweth yt it is inowgh for his saluacyon, to byleue ye promyse of god in Chryst, that thorow Chryste he shalbe saued/ & byleue not that Chryste & the holy goste be one equale god wyth ye father, by which thre persons & one god he shalbe saued. For yt Chryst is one god equale with the father, it is no promise made vnto vs/ nor yt the holy goste is so neyther/ but it is a thyng by god tolde vnto vs. And I maruayle mych by what menys Tindale can proue vs, that there is and lesse parell in not byleuynge of goddes other wordes, then in the wordes of hys promyses/ syth he byndeth vs to byleue them both a lyke. The cause of our saluacyon is not the bylyefe of the promyse, nor the truste therin neyther, of any proper nature of that bylyefe in the promyse/ no more then the nature of our good workes, is able of iy selfe for our saluacyon/ but the ordynaunce of god, that it pleaseth hym to saue vs for [iiv] our obedyence of hys commaundement bothe in the bylyefe and the worke. For as he coulde yf it so pleased hym, brynge vs all vnto the blysse of heuen wythout any good worke at all/ so coulde he yf he lyste, brynge vs all thyther wythout any fayth at all. For he coulde brynge vs thyther wythout any knowledge gyuen vs therof, tyll we came thyther and had it. So it appereth clerely, that the cause of the saluacyon standeth all in the obedyence of goddes commaundement/ wherby he byddeth vs, and by hys byd- dyng byndeth vs, to captyue our vnderstandynge in to the obedyence of fayth and byleue hys promyses. Now yf thys be thus as of trouth it is/ what dowte is there but that we be as vpon lyke rewarde, so vpon lyke parell & payne, bounden to byleue all other thynges yt god telleth vs, as well as the thynges whych he promyseth vs. And therfore yf Tyndale wyll to the contrary loke to be byleued of any man in thys poynt / he muste accordynge to hys owne rule, brynge forth playne and open scrypture, by whyche god hath tolde vs by wrytynge, that yf we byleue onys hys promyses, care for no more. For as for all other thynges that be no promyses, he wyll that we be at lyberty to byleue as we lyste/ so that there be no malyce in vs. And why at more lybertye of byleuynge god in hys other wordes, then in hys promyses? I can not perceyue what cause Tyndale can imagyne/ but yf he be so madde to thynke, that god wyll in all hys other tales that hym lyste to tell vs, though they be wryten in the very gospell as Tyndale sayth after, haue vs yet at lybertye in beleuynge hym, bycause hym selfe wolde be at lybertye to tell vs for hys pleasure somtyme trew talys, and somtyme suche as Tyndale telleth, that is to wytte vntrewth and lyes. Surely this is a maruelouse tale of Tyndale in my mynde/ & a maruelouse dyfference that he putteth bytwene the bylyefe of the promyses and the bylyefe of all the other artycles of the fayth. A though the bylyefe of the promyses onely, were so farre aboue th bylyefe of any other artycle/ when euery man that any wytte hath, maye well and clerely se, that the bylyefe of the promyses do so depende vpon some other artycles, that the bylyefe of those artycles gone, the bylyefe of the promyses and all to gyther were gone. As who so were (as many haue ben) so madde to byleue that there were no god at all/ wyth hym were goddes [ki] promyses quyte gone. And hys synne were as greate that erred in not byleuynge there were any god, as hys that byleuynge there were a god, erred yet in that he byleued not that euer he made any promyse to man. And yet in goddes promyses Tyndale meneth onely ys promyses of god made vnto mankynde/ for so farre go saynt Peters wordes, <2qui in hunc mundum venisti,>2 is Tyn- dals exposycyon to. And therfore as for Tyndale, ye se well so that he byleue that hys electe chyrche of mankynde shalbe saued/ he maye wythout any parell chese whyther he wyll byleue that euer any angell is eternally saued or not/ notwythstandyng that Chryst sayd of saynt Iohan the baptyst that the lest in heuen was greter then he. Yet bycause it was but a tale tolde by the mouth of Chryst, and not a promyse made/ & specyally syth it was no promyse of any gyfte gyuen to man: Tyndale maye dystruste it and denye it yf he lyste, yf hys wytte haue any such wekenes, and so that he do it not of malice/ for all that it is playnely wryten in the very gospell, and there tolde by goddes owne mouth. Concernynge yet the promyses made to man / let vs consyder whych thynges be promyses, and whych thynges be not the very promyses, but other artycles besyde. That we shalbe saued thorow Chryst and by Chrystes passyon, is a promyse. And yet that Chryst hym selfe was the same very person, by whom that dede shold be done, is more properly a tale then a promyse. And it maye be that a man byleuyng the promyse that mankynde shall be saued thorow Chryst, may yet erre in not byleuynge ys Iesus the sonne of Mary was that Chryste. And of trouth eyther in that errour or very nere to that errour, be all the hole secte of Iewes. So that it is as great parell not to byleue god in hyus tale, when he sayed thys is my welbeloued sonne in whom I myche delyte/ as not to byleue hym in hys promyse made vnto Habraam, that of hys seed sholde such a sauyour come. For it is not all one to promyse that of hym sholde one come by whom the worlde sholde be saued, and to tell hym thys is the man that in my promyse I spake of For a promise and a tale be not both one thynge. For though euery promyse be in dede a tale, syth no man can make a promyse but yf he tell it: yet is not euery tale a promyse, as euery chylde perceyueth. And therfore saynte Peter toke a sure waye, when he sayed, Thou arte Chryst that arte come into thys [kiv] worlde / takyng it for a pryncypall poynt to byleue goddes tale. For the tale that thys was he whyche as our sauyour sayde, the father in heuen had hym selfe tolde vnto Peter, that tale Peter confessed, that Iesus was Chryste whyche was then comen into the worlde. But the promyse whyche was the sauynge of the worlde that sholde be wrought in hym/ that thyng saynt Peter spake not of there, as a thyng byleued and loked for afore/ nor of the mene of the sauyng that it shulde be by hys passyon, that thynge saynte Peter as Tyndale sayth at that tyme knewe not of/ so that ye tale and the promyse were not all one. But surely concernyng the bylyefe of goddys promyses/ Tyndale semeth to fare as the Iewes do. For lyke as many of them byleue, that thorow Chryste the world shall be saued/ and yet they lese the frute of that bylyefe, bycause they wyll not knowe who is Chryste: euyn so Tyndale sayth, that he byleueth Chrystes promyse made vnto hys chyrche here in erth, that hys holy spyryte shalbe therwith vnto the worldes ende, and teche it and lede it into euery trouth. But he leseth yet the frute of that bylyefe (yf he byleue it as he sayth he doth) bycause that he wyll not knowe whyche is Chrystes chyrche here in erth. But lyke as the Turkes in stede of the trew sauyour of the world, worshyp the false deceyuer Machomet/ so Tyndale in stede of the trew catholyke chyrche of Chryst (of whych chyrch Chryst wolde that euery man sholde lerne the trouth, whyche the holy goste by Chrystes promyse techeth, and euer shall tech vnto it, and whyche chyrche muste for that cause nedes be a congregacyon knowen) Tyndale taketh not onely a secrete scatered company vnknowen, but also a rable of fals malycyouse heretykes, techyng to the doctryne of goddes spyryt abydyng by Chrystes pro- myse in his catholyke chyrche, euyn clene the contrary. And also where as Chryst when he turned the brede into his own precyouse body, & the wyne into his blessed blode, & commaunded the same to be done for euer in his chyrch after in remembraunce of his passyon, & dyd in so commaundyng make a faythfull promyse, yt hym selfe wolde be for euer with hys chyrch in that holy sacrament/ & for a perpetuall memory of hys bytter passyon that he suffered for vs, wolde gyue hys owne flesshe that suffered passyon, & hys owne blode that was shedde in hys passyon, to abyde perpetually with vs, [ki] accordynge to hys owne wordes spoken vnto hys chyrche, when he sayed, I am with you all dayes vnto the ende ofthe worlde: Tyndale wyll not now byleue that promyse at all/ but as I haue in my fyrst boke by hys owne wordes proued you, maketh mockes and mowes at that blessed sacrament, and calleth it but cake brede, and reasoneth it rather for starche full lyke a starke heretyke god wote, and sayth it is neyther body nor bloude at all. And thus where he so hyghly magnifyeth the bylyefe of goddes promyses onely, settynge all other artycles of the fayth as thynges of a seconde sorte/ hym selfe byleueth as ye se the promyses as lytell as the tother. But now let vs go ferther in hys wordes, & se for what cause he sayth, that none other errour in any thynge saue the promyses can be dampnable, be they neuer so greate. Lo thus he sayth, Tyndale. In other thynges that be not the promyses, theyr errours be not vnto dampnacyon, though they be neuer so greate, bycause they holde them not malycyously. As now, yf some when they rede in the new testament of Chrystes bretherne, wolde thynke that they were our ladyes chyldren after the byrth of Chryst, bycause they knowe not the vse of the spekynge of the scrypture/ or of the Hebrues how that nygh kynnesmen be called bretherne, or happely they myghte be Iosephes chyldren by some fyrsye wyfe, neyther can haue any to teache hym for Tyranny that is so greate/ yet coude it not hurte hym thowgh he dyed therin, bycause it hurteth not the redempcyon that is in Chrystes blood. For though she had none but Chryst/ I am therfore neuer the more saued, neyther yet the lesse though she had had. And in suche lyke an hundred that plucke not a mans fayth from Chrysye, they myghye erre and yet be neuer the lesse saued/ no though yhe conyrary were wryyen in the gospell. For as in oyher synnes, as soone as they be rebuked they repent/ euen so here as soone as they were better tawght, they sholde immedyately knowledge theyr errour and not resyste. More. Here haue ye good reders the reason and ys cause, wherfore the trew membres of Tyndals chyrch can neuer synne dedely, though they erre in any artycle that is no promyse, be the article neuer so great. The cause is sayth he, bycause that lyke wyse as in all other synnes as soone as they be rebuked they repente/ euyn so as soone as they be better taught, they repent theyr errour, and byleue the trouth, and resyste not/ and for that cause it is no dedely synne in the [kiv] mene season, before they be rebuked and taught better, all though they dyed in those errours, were the artycles neuer so great, and the contrary trouth wryten in the gospell, so that they be none of the promyses. Thys is the hole somme and effecte of thys hole chapyter, though he tryfle with other thynges bytwene. And therfore wyll we fyrste aske hym by what scrypture or by what reason, he proueth that euery person whych is elected to be saued, shall repent as soone as euer he is rebuked of any synne that he doth. He wyll shew peraduenture, that Dauid dyd so, & happely some other to. That wyll be a very bare argumente. Dauid was an electe person / and he dyd so, ergo euery elected person doth so? Thys argument wyll be very lyke the forme of arguynge, that yonge chyldren vse in grammer scholes. <2Asinus meus habet aures, & tu habes>2 <2aures, ergo tu es asinus meus.>2 Myne asse hath eares, and thou hast eares/ ergo thou arte my asse. Fyrste I suppose yt Tyndale wyll hym selfe agre what so euer he sayth here, that suche rebukynge at whyche hys electe persone shall alwaye so soone repente and retourne, hadde nede to come after the rage passed, as hym self sayth, that when the rage is paste he shall repente. For yf suche a rebuker come whyle the rage is on hym, whyle the man is forwarde vppon hys vyage, and as Tyndale sayth vpon hys greate occasyons caryed forth wyth concupyscence, thorow the frute of the synne that breketh out of hys membres/ the rebuker may for- tune at that tyme to speke twyse ere lie go backe agayne wyth hym. Ye and what so euer Tyndale say, when the great rage is passed to/ yet is there many a man in heuen that hath alter baptysme fallen lull often to synne, and not repented alway at the fyrst rebuke/ but not withstandyng many rebukynges & mych callynge vppon, bothe by theyr frendes and good gostely fathers, haue yet lyen longe therin/ and for all that haue after amended and proued full vertuouse men, and elles god forbede. And thys poynt is so open and euydent, not onely in scrypture, but also at euery mannes eye/ that I nothynge fere but that euery wyse man, wyll in thys poynte take Tyndals tale for a very false inuented foly. And then syth he maketh thys poynt the grounde of the tother, that is to wytte that euery electe person shall in lyke [ki] wyse at the fyrste techyng, as soone as he is better taught, repente euery errour that he holdeth/ it shall well folowe that the seconde is as false and as folysshe as the fyrst, and so is it in very dede. For it maye be full well that a ryght good man maye be mysse ledde by suche as Tyndale is/ & thorow such folkes false perswasyons maye fall in errours and heresyes mo then one, not onely besyde the promyses, but also in the promyses to/ extendynge some to farre and cuttynge some to shorte, as Luther, Huyskyn, and Tyndale do. And theyr vntrewe doctryne maye be so depe entred and roted ln the good symple soule, that when he is by better men better taught, he shall not repent hys errours at the fyrste nor at the seconde tyme neyther, but defende them many a tyme & ofte/ and yet shall at length wyth helpe of goddes grace, applye hys wyll rather indyffer- ently to perceyue the treuth, then frowardly to stycke styll in heresye/ & so shall fall in to ye ryght way agayn, and very clerely se that those blynde heretykes had ledde hym in darkenes before. For ellys yf Tyndale sayd trew, that euery elect person wolde be reformed at the fyrste/ it muste folow that who so euer dyd not when he were better taught, retourne and be reformed at the fyrste, were a fynall reprobate and sholde neuer be saued. And then were it vayne to talke wyth hym ofter then onys, yf he wold not tourne at the fyrst as soone as he were onys well taught. For by Tyndals tale, he ys is electe shall by and by assent vnto the trouth, as soone as it is told hym, and forthwyth repent hys errour. If the olde holy doctours and sayntes had ben of Tyndals mynde/ they sholde haue lefte in heresye many a man whom they coulde not conuerte at the fyrste, and yet conuerted them after very well. And truely yf saynt Ambrose had taken it for an vndowted token of in- uyncyble malyce in heresye, when so euer hym selfe was not at the fyrst techynge byleued and obayed/ it is very lykely that he neuer sholde haue conuerted saynt Austayne to the treuth, from mo errours then one. For though saynt Poule counsayle Titus, at ys man whyche were an heretyke, sholde after one warnynge or twayne estewe: yet ment he not to for- byd hym the oftener callynge vpon hym after, wyth good & holsome counsayle. For as saynt Chrysosthem sayth, yf the deuyll do not [kiv] dyspayre to turne a man at last from god vnto hym selfe, though he myste hys purpose oftentymes before, and that so farforth that he letted not to assay Iob agayne & agayne for all the pacyence that he founde in hym, and all ye prayse also that god gaue hym hym selfe/ it were a great shame yf a good man sholde dyspayre to conuerte synner from the deuill to god, bycause he can not bringe it to passe at onys. And yet by Tyndals doctryne, yf a synner dyd not repente at the fyrste rebukynge, and he that were in errour leue his errour at the fyrst trewe techyng/ we muste nedes perceyue therby that he were none electe, and consequently that he were a playne reprobate, that fynally sholde be dampned what so euer were sayd or done vnto hym/ and that it were therfore in vayne to go any more aboute to tourne hym agayne to god, but leue hym styll to the deuyll. Were not thys wene you good reders a godly wyse waye? I dare boldely saye that Tyndale hym selfe yf he shold mete wyth a man of the trewe catholyke fayth, and sholde fynde hym faste therin when he wolde teche hym hys heresyes/ though he coulde not at the fyrste techynge nor at the seconde neyther, brynge hym from the trouth, yet wolde he not leue hym so by hys wyll/ but wolde assaye hym ofter, and prece vpon hym styll, not without hope to wynne hym and begyle hym at the laste. Now saye I then to Tyndale, that hys hope of the mannes chaunge to hys secte, eyther bycause hym selfe shall in the laborynge of hym to drawe hym to it, playe the deuyls parte, and thynke that though an electe shall turne from euyll to good alway at the fyrste mocyon, and that therfore yf he turne not at the fyrste it is in vayn to go any more about hym/ yet a reprobate though he turne not from hys present good state vnto synne at the fyrste, shall turne after well inough/ and therfore he wyll laboure hym styll to his secte. And then in thynkyng thus, Tyndale taketh ye cayholyke fayth for good and his owne secte for nought. Or elles yf he take the catholyke fayth for false, from whyche he goth about to gete the man/ and hys owne secte for good, to whyche he laboreth to brynge hym: then I saye that syth he wyll not leue of when hys doctryne is resysted at the fyrste, he condempneth playnely the hole tale that he telleth here. For yf euery person electe, shall as he sayth here, repente hys errour alwaye at ye fyrst, as soone as he is taught the treuth/ then thys man that at [ki] the fyrste after the treuth onys taughte hym by Tyndale, dyd for all that resyste it/ made Tyndale surely to knowe, that he was none of the electes, and that he therfore was a reprobate of god, that fynylly sholde be dampned with the deuyll/ & so shold Tyndale lese no more labour about hym. And thys were thus after Tyndale, though the mannes errour were but in suche artycles as be no promyses. For yf it were in any of the promyses, that Tyndale shold fynd a man after baptisme byleue as ys chyrch byleueth, agaynst the heresyes that he byleueth/ that is to wytte byleuynge agaynste Tyndale, that goddes promyse ofsaluacyon in the blode of Chryste, doth not quyte put awaye shryfte and all penytencyall workes towarde satysfaccyon, and all punysshement for any synne repented, to be sustayned eyther in thys worlde or pur- gatory/ but that so to byleue & truste in goddes promyse, is a dampn- able erroure agaynste goddes promyse: yf Tindale I say fynde such a man, he shold by hys owne tale here perceyue that man forthwith for a desperate heretyke/ bycause that yf hym selfe saye trewe, that none electe person can after hys baptysme euer fall in t concernynge any of the promyses, then shold hym selfe kn we hat he whom he founde in that errour concernynge goddes promyse, were a fynall reprobate/ & then sholde let hym alone and lese no labour in turnyng of hym. And sauyng my cheryte, I beshrewe hym hartely that he dothe not so. But thus good Chrysten reders ye maye well perceyue, that there is no treuth in Tyndals tale. And that the profe of all hys hole con- clusyon in thys chapyter, that none electe can fall into any errour agaynsye the promyses/ and that in all other artycles they repente theyr errours as soone as they be taught the treuth, and that they repente all theyr other synnes as soone as they be rebuked/ hangeth all by the mone shyne. And that neyther of both hys heresyes, to- warde the profe wherof he wolde make thys conclusyon serue/ of whych two the tone is that none electe person can after hys baptysme synne of purpose nor wyllyngly, and ys tother that necessaryly dependeth ther- uppon, that who so euer after baptysme breke any of goddes com- maundementes wyllyngly and of purpose, shall neuer after be saued/ can take here none ancre holde at all. But as they be bothe twayne by the blast of the deuyls mouth blowen out abrode, [kiv] agaynste the stronge rockes of Chrystes catholyke chyrch, and the myghty magesty of god/ so be they bothe twayne there fallen to wrake, and shatered all to fytters. Yet for bycause that Tyndale in suche thynges as be no promyses/ in all whyche thynges he sayth be they neuer so greate, the electe maye erre and dye in that errour for lacke of good techynge, and yet neuer be dampned therfore, bycause they hurte not the redempcyon that is in Chrystes blode: bycause Tyndale I saye for hys ensample of suche kynde of thynges as be no promyses, putteth ys perpetuall vyrginyte of our lady / it is good to consyder in what maner he handeleth it. Tyndale. If some of them (that is to wytte the trew membres of the electe chyrche) when they rede in the new testament of Chrystes bretherne, wolde thynke that they were our ladyes chyldren after the byrth of Chryst, bycause they knowe not the vse of the spekynge of the scryp- ture/ or of the Hebrues how that nygh kynnesmen be called breth- erne, or happely they myghte be Iosephes chyldren by some fyrste wyfe, neyther can haue any to teache hym for Tyranny that is so greate/ yet coude it not hurte hym thowgh he dyed therin, bycause it huryeth not the redempcyon that is in Chrystes blood. More. Consyder good reder, how many thynges here falle vppon Tyndals hedde at onys, by hys owne fond handelyng of thys ensample. Fyrste it is foly for hym to put, that for tyranny nowe any man sholde lacke techynge, that those chyldren were not borne of our ladyes body/ syth that artycle is as well & comenly knowen as any of ys promyses/ and as longe hath ben knowen, and as fully, and as comenly byleued thorow Chrystendome, as any other artycle of the chrysten fayth. And none artycle is there almost in the chrysten fayth which hath not had mo heretykes agaynste it, then this artycle of our lagyes perpetuall vyrginyte/ so that it is now so well knowen, and that solucyon also of nygh kynred called bretherne amonge the Hebrews, that Tyndale neuer neded to cumber hys boke therwith. Bysydes this, hym selfe & his owne doctryne destroyeth hys owne solucyon. For he sayth that we be bounden to byleue none artycle, but yf it be proued by playne scrypture. Now though he yeche now the trew members of hys electe chyrche, the thynge that euery chylde can tell all redy, that [1i] amonge the Hebreus the nere kynnesmen were called bretherne: what hath he taught them therby? any other thinge, then that the scrypture doth not proue, yt our lady had euer any mo chyldren then Chryst. He doth not yet by the scrypture teche his trew membres, to perceyue ys she had no rao, but onely that the scrypture sayth not playne the contrary. But then doth he by owne rule bysyde, teche them that they maye byleue at theyr lybertye yf they lyst, that she had mo chyldren in dede. And fertlier- more he techeth them, that they shold in no wyse take it for any sure article of theyr bylyefe, that she was a perpetuall vyrgyn, and neuer had mo chyldren after Chryst. Thys poynt he techeth playnely after his maister Luther, as ye haue herd all redy thorow out his hole tytle, wherin he laboreth to proue that ys apostles haue lefte nothyng vnwryten, the bylyefe wherof were necessary to saluacyon. Whych false assercyon of his I haue in dyuers places of my formar bokes clerely confuted/ & in the ende of my thyrd boke haue answered and auoyded all his hole chapyter therof But now syth in thys present place, Tyndale hym selfe graunteth, that the cause why an electe person shall be saued, though he happen to erre & thynke ys our lady was not a perpetuall vyrgyn, is bycause that he shall repente that errour when he is taughte the contrary: playne it is to any man, ys hym selfe therin confesseth now, ys it is a necessary artycle for salua- cyon, that to euery man at the leste wyse to whom it is opened & taught/ syth the cause of his saluacyon whyche before byleued the contrary, is by Tyndale hym selfe the repentyng of hys formar errour. Now then it is so that Tyndale doth in sundry places, confesse & agre that thys poynt can not be proued by playn and euydente scrypture. Ergo he confesseth here playnely, the contrary of that he so fastely before hath affermed, whyle he taught that there is no thyng to be byleued for a suerty, but yf it be proued by playne and euydent scrypture/ and that the apostles haue lefte no thynge vn- wryten, whyche men are bounden to byleue vppon payne of dampnacyon. Thys doctryne of hys mayster and his owne hath he as ye now se by hys owne handelyng of this mater, here vtterly destroyed and damp ned. Now yf he wyll happely for shame, laboure to seke some shyfte, and saye that he meaneth no more but to put thys dyfference bytwene the artycles of the fayth in the promy[liv]ses, and all other artycles, that none errour in any of the other is dampnable, tyll the man that mysse byleueth be better taughte the trouth/ and that then he is bounden to byleue them, whyther they be in scrypture or not/ but in the by- lyefe of the promyses, euery errour and ignoraunce also is dampnable ere euer they be taught. For no man shalbe saued but yf he be taught them and haue the faythfull bylyefe of them: thus muste Tyndal nedys saye for aught that I can se/ or ellys muste he confesse, that one pece of his doctryne playnely destroyeth a nother, concernyng his dyfference bytwene the promyses and other artycles. But yet abedeth styll agaynste hym, that syth he confesseth the perpetuall vyrginyte of our lady, to be now that it is taught necessary to be byleued, whiche is not wryten in scrypture: styll I say standeth it styffely agaynst hym, that he hath destroyed all his pryncypall grounde, where about his mayster & hym self haue taken so great labour to make men wene that nothyng was necessaryly to be by- leued, but yf it were euydentely wryten in holy scrypture. But now concernynge his dyfference, bytwene the necessyte of the bylyefe of the promyses, and the bylyefe of the other artycles/ we shall tell hym ys it wylbe peraduenture hard for hym to proue his sayenge trew, specyally takyng the promyses as hym selfe taketh them. For in the begynnyng vpon the fyrst prechyng of saynt Peter, when there were many so sodaynly chrystened therupon / wherby can Tyndale proue yt all they were fully taught ys fayth of the promyses before they were baptysed, or that none dyed ere euer they were taught any ferther/ or that yf they dyed forthwith vpon theyr baptysme, that then theyr chrystendome stode theym not in stede for lacke of ferther instruccyon of the promyses. Concernyng which I dare be bolde to say, that they were neuer taught the doctryne yt Tyndale calleth so necessary, yt he techeth the lacke of that fayth in the promise to be dampnable. For they were I say neuer taught, ys they must byleue that ys promyse shold saue them & gete them of all theyr synnes at any tyme after theyr baptysme commytted, at theyr bare repent- aunce, alway full remyssyon of synne & payn, & all in purgatory or in this world eyther, and without any regarde of any good wurke at all, or of any purpose therof, other then bare repentaunce and fayth in the promyses. I dare well saye they dyed all that [1i] wwrw then baptysed, ere euer they herde any thynge of this poynt of fayth in the promyses/ whych was neuer thought vpon by saynt Peter nor any of hys felowes then, nor yet no man elles, tyll it was deuysed by the deuyll, & put forth by heretykes when cheryte waxed cold many a wynter afier. If Tyndale make vs many questyons of them ys were so sodaynly chrystened so many at onys in the begynnyng: we wyll yet be bolde to tell hym ys many chyldren dye now soone after ys they come from chrystenyng, ere euer they be weshed out of ye chrysome/ of which I suppose ys some were neuer taught fully the fayth of the promyses ere they dyed. If he say to thys that though they were not taughte it actually, yet by the gyfte of god in the sacrament, it is taught and infunded into theyr soules habytually: then wyll we aske hym wherby he proueth yhen hys dyfference, bytwen the fayth of the promyses and of the other articles/ but yf he proue vs that onely the fayth of the promyses iS infused, and of the other artycles not. Whych when he proueth ou, byleue hym/ and in the meane whyle, byleue that hys euasyon is ot worth a fly. If he wyll say that the chyldren baptysed, and so forthwyth departynge, haue no fayth at all/ but be saued onely by the fayth of theyr frendes, and by that our lorde hath receyued them to the sacrament of baptysme, and by the sacrament of baptysme hat receyued them to grace & glory, without any fayth of theyr owne then gyueth he to the sacrament agaynste all hys other doctryne, great effycacite of grace, and maketh it not onely a sygne. And yet graunteth he then bysyde, the thynge that he denyeth/ that is to wytte that some maye be saued beynge ignoraunt, not onely of some of the promyses, but also of them all. Besydes thys, yf we wolde graunte hym the thynge that he can neuer proue: yet were he neuer the nere. For though it were trewe that wythout bylyefe of all the promyses, no man myghte be saued/ but that the bare ignoraunce of any of them were dampnable, and that the ignoraunce of any other artycle were not dampnable, nor the contrary bylyefe tyll they were opened and taughte: yet syth men were (as Tyndale hath here confessed) bounden vpon payne of dampnacyon to byleue the perpetuall virginite of our lady, and to repente theyr formar errour to the contrary as soone as they be taughte it, notwythstandyng [1iv] that it can not be proued by playne and euydent scrypture: then muste Tyndale graunte that it is lyke wyse of euery other lyke artycle, that is to saye of euery artycle, whych is trewe and muste be byleued when it is taught bysyde the promyses, though it can not be proued by scrypture, no more then the artycle of ys perpetuall vyrginite of our lady. Then aske we Tindale how knoweth he those artycles whych be necessary artycles of the fayth, of which artycles the contrary bylyefe artycles taught, the same artycles not beynge wryten in scrypture. Doth Tyndale knowe them by any other meane, then by the chyrche/ syth they be not taught hym by scrypture? For it were harde that he sholde in such a mater byleue ys authoryte of any one man, but yf that eyther god byd hym byleue hym, or that for lacke of scripture he proue the trouth of hys doctryne by myracle, or by myracle proue hym selfe to be appoynted by god to teche hym/ by reason wherof he myghte be byleued, though he proue not euery partyculare poynt of hys doctryne by a seuerall myracle/ excepte great or greater myracles be done or haue bene done by some ys techeth or hath taught ys contrary. In which perplexite god wyll eyther neuer brynge vs or neuer leue vs. Therfore conclude I, that Tyndale must nedes graunt, that he knoweth not those artlcles but by thc chyrch. Which chyrche hath proued it selfe by myllions of myracles, and which chyrche god byddeth hym byleue, and sayth he wyll dwell therwyth alwayes, and sende hys spyryt to teche and en- forme it, and lede it into euery trowth. Of thys chyrch therfore must Tyndale lerne those artycles, or els cali not be bounden to byleue them, & to repente hys formar errours to the contrary, but yf he say that hym selfe haue them by specyall reuelacyon of god, pryuately shewed vnto hym selfe. And then yf he saye so, he muste eyther byleue them alone/ or elles yf he wyll be byleued in them/ & haue other men byleue them with hym/ then muste he proue vs them by scrypture or myracle. And syth I dare answere for hym, that in suche artycles he lacketh those two/ there is no remedy for hym but he must nedes confesse that he is taughte the suerty of those artycles, and lerneth whyche they be, onely by the chyrche of Chryste. Then aske we Tyndale forther, whyche is that chyrche of Chryste, by whyche he is taught to know those necessary [1i] artycles from all other/ the bylyefe wherof is not necessary to saluacyon. He can not saye that he lerned it of any vnknowen chyrche, for no suche com- pany can he knowe for the chyrche/ but he muste nedes confesse that he lerneth to knowe those artycles by the knowen chyrche And the by whych knowen chyrche? let hym name any whych he wyll, excepte the knowen catholyke chyrch whyche hym selfe impugneth/ and he shall name a company of no credence in that poynt. For by hys owne agremente they muste lacke scrypture for those artycles (for of such artycles we speke) and they haue no myracles. Wherfore fynally when he hath all done/ thys artycle alone of the perpetuall vyrginyte of our lady (the contrary errour wherof after ys trouth taught, hym selfe confesseth to be dampnable) dreueth hym of very fyne force, to confesse that the chyrch by whych he knoweth the vndowted treuth of thys artycle, syth he knoweth it not by playne and euydent scrypture, is not his owne secrete vnknowen chyrche of electes, whych as ye se hym selfe can not yet well descrybe vs, nor any knowen chyrche of heretykes / but the very comen knowen catholike chyrch, which hym selfe goth all thys whyle aboute to impugne and destroye. In whyche onely chyrche Chryste hath promysed to dwell and abyde, to teche it euery necessary treuth vnto the ende of the worlde/ & vnto the onely fayth of which chyrch, he hath promysed and gyuen the gyfte of wurkyng myracles. Whyche myracles syth we clerely se perseuer and contynue in thys chyrche onely/ we maye clerely therby se, that thys chyrche onely is that chyrche also, to whyche onely the tother promyse of the holy gostes perpetuall resydence and inspyracyon was made. To thys poynte is Tyndale now good chrysten reder dreuen of necessyte/ but yf he wyll saye that thys hole multytude of ys knowen catholyke chyrch, is not the very chyrche, but onely the good men & electes ys be within the same. Now yf he wene to escape out so/ he shall be soone setin. For then at the leste wyse he knowledgeth, that there are no good men out of thys chyrch/ nor no man hath any trew sure fayth but it be lerned of thys chyrche, or of some membres of the same. And then syth hym selfe and hys felowes be out of thys chyrche/ both wylfully fyrst departed out, & after worthly cast out: them selfe be none of them of whom the trouth can be lerned. Also to say ys he therin byleueth onely the good men of the knowen chyrche/ that thyng hath hym self made impossyble to serue hym/ for they be by hym the onely electes, Whych may by hys own doctryne though they can do no dedely synne, do horryble dedes yet, and so seme very nought. And in thys comon knowen chyrch, the comon knowen fayth or bylyefe is all one, bothe wyth the good and the badde, though the lyuynge be dyuerse. If Tyndale dare denye that/ lette hym loke in the workes of saynt Austayne, saynt Hierom, saynt Cypryane, saynt Ambrose, saynt Basyle, saynt Gregorye, saynt Chrysostome, & all the other olde holy doctours and sayntes, of euery tyme thys fyftene hundred yere/ and he shall not for very shame saye nay, but that agaynste Luther & hym those holy sayntes had the same fayth that ye comon catholyke lay people haue yet vnto thys daye/ as for ensample, that it is an horryble abomynacyon, that any monke or frere sholde wedde a onne Wherin yf Tyndale dare say that I lye / let Tyndale as I haue often sayd, brynge forth of all the olde holy sayntes, some one that sayde the contrary/ whyche I am very sure he can not. So that fynally, Tyndale is comen agayn to the same poynt, that he must in ayth and bylyefe of such artycles, byleue the comon consent of the hole chyrche/ and not take hys doctryne of any one man or any that wolde in fayth vary, swarue, and fall from the comon fayth of the hole catholyke chyrche/ not though there fell awaye parcell mele, so many that they lefte the chyrche for the fewer parte. For god shall for the knowledge of hys trewe chyrche euer more amonge many other thynges, specyally prouyde twayne. One, that they whyche departe out therof shall neuer agre to gether in one bylyefe. Another, that ye lyghte of myracles shall neuer shyne amonge any of theyr chyrches, but onely in hys olde trewe catholyke chyrche remaynynge. And therin shall they styll contynue, wythout any wonders wroughte in any of the false counterfeted chyrches of heretykes, vntyll that Antychryste shall come hym selfe/ whyche as helpe me god I very greately fere is now very nere at hande. But when he is ones comen / our lorde be thanked he shall not very longe endure, ere Chryste shall hym selfe wyth the blaste of hys blessed mouth, blowe that prowde beste to noughte. [1i] Now good Chrysten reder, syth it is proued Tyndals owne handelynge of thys artycle of our ladyes perpetuall virgynite, that Tyndale coude not haue lerned ys trouth of that artycle of any man, but yf he lerned it by credence gyuen to the comon knowen chyrche, whych he wyll not knowe for the very chyrche, but impugneth it/ and syth hym selfe graunteth also, that the contrary erroure of that artycle is dampnable after the trouth taughte, for as mych as hys owne elected persons that so haue erred before, can not be after saued but by repentaunce of that errour: he muste nedes confesse also, that of all other lyke artycles whyche come in questyon, & are not in the scrypture eyther spoken of at all, or not playn & euydentely proued/ the sure trouth and certeyntye can not be had by no man, but it be fyrste comenly lerned of the same chyrche, by credence gyuen therunto, for the truste of Chrystes promyse made therto, that hym selfe and hys holy spyryte wolde for euer be resydent therin, and teche it euery necessary trouthe/ that is to wytte euery trouth, to the bylyefe wherof he wolde haue hys people boun- den. Now foloweth it forther good chrysten reder vpon this, that Tyndale is in thys mater so caught in a nette of hys owne makyng/ ys he must eyther lye tomblyng styll therin lyke a fole, and the more he stryueth therwyth the more all waye meshe and entangle hym self faster and faster therin/ or wysely gyue vp hys heresyes and renounce hys formar errours/ and from hensforth vtterly knowlege & con- fesse, that agaynste hys hole purpose he is vpon hys owne wordes clerely conuynced & concluded, not onely that the very chyrche is the comon knowen chyrche whyche hytherto he hath denyed and styffely stryueth agaynst, but also that in the sacramentes, vowes, fayth, and good wurkes, and fynally euery thynge wherin the catholyke knowen chyrche and hym selfe haue bene at varyaunce/ he muste lerne the trouth of the same chyrche, and therin byleue that chyrche, & gyue credence therunto. Whyche yf he do not endeuour hym selfe to do, but resyste theyr doctryne/ god whych hath commaunded hym to byleue and obay the chyrch, shall neuer worke wyth hym towarde the bylyefe. And thus good chrysten reders for the fynall conclusyon of thys chapyter/ here ye maye playnely se, that I myghte well yf I Wolde wyth thys same chapyter make an ende of [1iv] all the hole mater. For ye well remember that all our mater in this boke, is bytwene Tyndale and me no thynge ellys in effecte, but to fynde out whyche chyrche is the very chyrche. For syth he seeth hym selfe playnely bounden to gyue credence to that chyrche whych so euer be it/ he therfore in all hys boke bryngeth it in to darkenes, & laboreth to make it vnknoWen/ bycause he wold not by the knowlege therof, haue hys heresyes knowen and reproued. And now ye se that as our lady wolde, by hys folysshe handelynge of the artycle of her perpetuall vyrgynyte, he is quyte ouerthrowen/ and hath it playnely proued vnto hym vpon hys owne wordes, that the very chyrche is none other, but thys that he denyeth/ that is to wytte the comon knowen catholyke people, clergy, lay folke, and all/ whych what so euer theyr lyuynge be (amonge whom vndowtedly there are of bothe sortes many ryght good and vertuouse) do stande to gether and agre in the confessyon of one trew catholyke fayth, wyth all olde holy doctours and sayntes, and good chrysten people bysyde that are all redy passed thys fyftene hundred yere byfore, agaynste Arrius, Otho, Lambert, Luther, and wyclyffe, zuinglius, Huten, Husse, and Tyndale, & all the rable of such erronious heretykes. And therfore as I say, sauynge that I wyll go ferther to shew you Som what of hys ferther foly/ ellys myghte I well euyn here bothe ende thys present chapyter, and also thys hole worke/ wherin with a few of hys owne wyse wordes, Tyndale hath confounded hym selfe, and stroyed all hys hole mater. For as towchyng hys accustumable raylynge in ys ende of llys chapyter, wyth whyche he wolde seme to touche the catholyke chyrche/ it is all so clene agaynste hym selfe, and so clerely describeth and depeynteth liym selfe and his own felowes, that yf we wolde laboure sore to fynde oute what euyll we myght say by them we coulde fynde no better thyng to put vs in remembraunce of euery poynt of theyr myscheuouse maters, than Tyndals owne wordes that he wryteth here hym selfe. Lo thus he sayth. Tyndale. <2But they whyche malicyouslv mayntayne opynyons agaynste the scrypture,>2 Here shold he say as for ensample they that mayntayne that frerys maye wedde nonnes. <2or that that can not be proued by scrypture,>2 One of these thynges is [mi] as ye haue llerd, ys perpetuall vyrginite of our lady, which hym selfe hath confessed in this same chapyter, that the trew membres of his electe chyrch, must nedes byleue afier that they be ones taught it. And then yf them selfe be bounden to byleue it, they be bounden to stande therby & mayntayne it. And so speketh Tyndale clere agaynst hym seffe. <2or suche as maketh no mater vnto the>2 <2scripture,>2 He meneth such thynges as were not of necessyte requysyte to be wryten in scrypture/ and therfore he wryteth lyke hyrn selfe. For there is not one article of the fayth ys of necessyte neded to be wryten, but that god coulde both llaue taught them & kepye them without wrytyng. As he hath taughte & kepte some/ as for ensample ys perpetuall virginite of our lady, which Tyndale hath both denyed, & confessed, & denyed agayne, & woteth neuer where to hold him/ ys deuyl so troubleth his braynes. <2and to saluacyon that is in Chryste,>2 <2whyther they be trew or no/>2 The chyrche hath none suche as make no mater to saluacyon. For euery thyng that god wyll haue byleued pertayneth to saluacyon/ syth the contrary bylyefe is dysobedyence to god that so taughte it hys chyrch, bycause he wolde haue it byleued. And ys the perpetuall virginite of our lady is of such sorte, Tyndale hath hym selfe openly & playnely agreed/ & yet wold he now secretely stele backe agayn. Not wyttyngly peraduenture, but ys the deuyl pulleth hym backe by his cote skyrte vnware. and for the blynd zele of them make sectes, brekyng the vnyte of Chrystes chyrche, fbr whose sake they oughte to suffer all thynges/ and rese agaynste theyr neyghbours (whom they ought to loue as them selues) to sle them: suche men I saye are fallen from Chryst and make an idole of theyr opinions. For except they put truste in suche opinions and thought them necessary vnto saluacyon, or wyth a cancred conscience went about to disceyue for some fylthy purpose/ they wolde neuer breke the vnyte of fayth or yet sle theyr bretherne. Now good reder, consyder who make sectes, ys is to saye sondry partes & dyuisions, & breketh the vnite of Christes chyrch, whyther the catholyke chyrch ys was agreed all of our mynde, byleuyng purgatory, & the equall godhed of Chryste wyth hys father and the holy goste, and the blessed body and blode of Chryst in the sacrament of the aulter, & all the other holy sacramentes, & the perpetuall virginite of our lady, & prayed vnto her and other holy sayntes, & dyd reuerence to theyr relykes, images, & kept holy dayes and fastyng dayes, and byleued all very faste & fermely yt it was abomynable sacry[miv]lege for a frere to wedde a nonne. In all these thynges and many other good thynges mo, were all good chrysten peple agreed in one by the spyryte of god without any varyaunce / as appereth playnely bothe by the olde contynued bokes of seruyce vsed in the chyrches thorow chrystendom, & by the bokes of ye old holy doctours & saintes in euery age of tyme/ sauyng onely when such heretykes as Arrius, wycliffe, Luther, Lambert, Huyskyn, Husse, & Tyndale, and such other lyke, here & there, some in one tyme, some in a nother, and the very wurst in our tyme, haue ben by ys deuyll styred vp, to stroye ye trew fayth & vary from the catholyke corps of christendom, & make new fond sectes of theyr owne folysh braynes. And where he speketh of kyllyng and sleyng theyr bretherne/ hym selfe can tell well inough ys good chrysten prynces & other vertuouse people, dyd in ye begynnynge gretely forbere such heretykes/ tyll ys they were fynally fayne in auoydyng of theyr sedicyous trouble, & for the repressyng of theyr inemendable malice, to folow thensample of saynte Poule / and as he betoke some of em to the deuyll, to the punysshement of theyr bodyes in helpe of theyr soules or ceacynge of theyr synfull blasphemy: so by temporall lawes & bodyly punyshement, to fynysh ys infynyte malyce & intolerable trouble of those heretykes, for the sauegarde of good people in peace & tranquyllite. Which comon Peace & quyete yf the heretykes had not perturbed/ they had ben them self mych more esely handeled. But as Tyndale knoweth that this is trew/ so knoweth he well agayn that the heretykes haue ben those, ys dyd in chrystendom begyn to fyght, kyll, and sle, before ys them selfe were kylled & slayne, or any thyng foughten withall / and ys they began to be kylled & foughten withall, by theyr owne impor- tune malice, wherby ys catholyke people were constrayned and compelled to kyll them in the necessary defence of innocentes. And ys this is trew/ Tindale knoweth very well, both by the storyes as well of England as of other places, and also by ye experyence of his own dayes in Almayn, thorow the cruell insurreccyon there of his owne felowes the heretykes of his own secte. Which rose there, and robbed, burned, and killed, not one noughty knaue or two in a towne as good kynges and prynces do these horryble and incorigible heretykes, and yet somtyme scant ones in tenne yere, & in some good towne not onys in tenne score yere/ but hole goodly monasteries they burned [mi] vp and destroyed/ and some where all the chyrches almost thorow the hole contrey, robbed, spoyled, and bare awaye all that euer they fonde/ dyspyghted the sayntes images, relykes, the crucyfyx & the blessed sacrament, robbed, mayhemed, and mur- thered many good vertuouse people. And by goddes good suffer- aunce, they ceaced not at the clergye/ but felyng frute, went ferther & fell to theyr lordes landes. So that they that wynked and cared not for goddes part, were fayne to wake within a whyle & care for theyr owne part. And then they fell vpon the heretykes agayn, & kylled of them aboue.iii. score thousand in dyuers places all in one somer. Synnes which tyme in Swycherlande euyn thys laste yere zuinglius set his heretykes in a rage agayne, to pyll & spoyle the trew catholykes of his owne countre. But god gaue the victory to his faythfull folke, that were full loth to fyghte wyth them, sauyng ys very force draue them to the felde, where they bare ouer eyr enmyes. And zuinglius hym selfe tharcheretyke of all/ was there dedely wounded & taken, & after ys burned vp. Such fayre fortune had Tindals master there, of whom he toke his heresies agaynst the blessed sacrament. And therfore, where Tyndale speketh of kyllynge of heretykes whom he calleth his crysten bretherne/ he knoweth it well hym selfe yt his owne vnhappy felowes the heretykes I say them self, began fyrst ys guyse. And as they began it euen so they kepe it styl. And surely there is no dowte but that Tyndale hym selfe hath longed long, & yet euer loketh for, ys as the Lutheranys & zuinglianys haue begon to ryse & ruffle in rebellyon in sondry partes of Almayne/ so he myght se his disciples assay some fete here. But I trust in goddes grace & in the kinges goodnes, theyr hartes shall all faynt ere they come therto. And yf ye deuyll were so stronge with them as to styre them vp/ I wold wyshe Tindale among them & frere Barns to. For I lytell dowte yf they dyd, but both captayns & company (as zuinglius and his bushment came shortely to myschyefe) yf god syt where he sat, sholde haue lyke lucke. <2Now is>2 <2this a playn conclusyon, that bothe they that trust in theyr owne workes,>2 Lo what a parell here were, yf a frere sholde put any truste in chastyte & kepynge of his vow. But & yf he trust in lechery with weddyng of a nonne, then is he saufe inough/ bycause that wurke is not hys owne wurke but the wurke of the deuyll, and of the synne that breketh out of his membres. [miv] <2And they also that put truste in theyr owne opinyons/>2 <2be fallen from Chryste, and erre from the waye offayth that is in Chrystes>2 <2blode/ and therfore are none of Chrystes chyrche, bycause they be not buylt>2 <2vppon the rocke offayth.>2 Thys doth hym selfe and hys felowes that are heretykes. For the artycles that the hole catholyke chyrche put truste in, be not the opynyon of any man but the sure doctryne of god. Wherof the certayntye of the truth dependeth vpon the promyse of our sauyour hym selfe, whyche hath promysed that the holy goste shall teche hys chyrche all trouth and lede it there vnto. And therfore yf it be trew as in dede it is, that they whych truste in theyr owne wurkes, and make idols of theyr owne opynyons, and breke the vnyon of the chyrche, and make sondry sectes, and kyll theyr chrysten bretherne, be fallen from Chryst & from the waye of fayth that is in Christes blode/ and therfore are none of Christes chyrche, bycause they be not buylt vpon the rocke of fayth: then must it nedes folow, that Luther, Lambert, zuinglius, Huskyn, and Tyndale, and all other of theyr sondry sectes, be fallen from Chryste and are from the waye of fayth that is in Chrystes blode/ and therfore are none of Christes chyrche, bycause they put trust in theyr owne vayne inuencyons, and make idols of theyr owne fals opynyons. For whyche they breke the Peace and vnyte bothe of the chyrch and of the fayth, by makynge of sectes and sowyng sedycyon and dyssensyon, to styrre vp rebellyon and insurreccion agaynste theyr neyghbours and theyr gouernours, and therby cause the robbery, pyllage, spoyle, and murder of theyr good catholyke Chrysten bretherne. And do put also tlleyr truste in theyr owne workes, not in fastyng, pray- eng, almoyse, or any good wurke / but in destruccyon of monasteryes, castynge oute of relygyon, expulsyon of chastyte, wyth weddynge of nonnes and lyuyng in lechery, prophanyng of chyrches, pollutyng of aulters, blasphemynge of sayntes, rasshyng downe theyr images, castynge out theyr relykes, dyspyghtynge our lady, defylynge the crucyfyxe, and fynally mockynge and mowynge at the blessed sacrament. And thus abusynge them selfe, they declare lo very clerely that they be not buylte vpon the rocke of fayth/ but wyth the breth of spyrytes be blowen downe to the deuyll. I praye god amende them, and set them on that rocke agayn. And here an ende of this chapyter/ in which ye se lo to what pleasaunt passe fyrst his ryall ridles of synne [mi] and not synne, erre and not erre / & after hys ryall raylynge of makynge sectes, brekynge of vnite, kyllynge of chrysten bretherne, trustyng in theyr wurkes, is by the perceyuyng of his owne wordes fynafly brought vnto / and euery myschyefe that he layth agaynst the knowen catholyke chyrch, eche after other fall in his owne necke/ where that fagotte lyeth so surely bounden on hys sholder, that as longe as he lyueth wyth all the shyftes he can fynde, he shall neuer well shake it of. Faythe is euer assawted and fought withall. Tyndale. MOREOUER this fayth whyche we haue in Chryste, is euer fought agaynste, euer assayled and beten at with desperacyon/ not when we synne onely, but also in all temptacyons of aduersyye, in to whiche god bryngeth vs, to nowrtre vs and to shewe vs our owne hartes, the ypocrysye and fals thoughtes that here lye hydde/ our almost no fayth at all and as lytell loue, euyn then happely when we thowght our selues moste perfecte of all. For when temptacyons come, we can not stande. When we haue synned, fayth is feble. When wronge is done vs, we can not forgyue. In sykenesse, in losse of goodes, and in all tribulacyons we be impacyent. When our neyghbour nedeth our helpe that we muste departe with hym of ours, then loue is colde. And thus we lerne and fele that there is no goodnesse nor yet power to do good, but of god onely. And in all such temtacyons our fayth peryshed not vtterly, neyther our loue and consente vnto the lawe of god/ but they be weake, sykke, and wounded, and not clene dede. More. Thys chapyter hath Tyndale put in for no great effecte, but onely with a comely florysshe, to set out and furnysshe hys heresyes of the chapyter next before. Wherin he techeth that in the trewe membres of hys electe chyrch, the fayth doth neuer fayle but euer contynueth, and that therfore they do neuer synne dedely, how horryble dedes so euer they do as he con- fesseth that they do many/ & yet synne neuer dedely, bycause they do them not of malice nor of purpose, but of fraylte onely & of wekenes, [miv] thorough the frute of the synne that remayneth in theyr flesshe, & breketh out of theyr sely weke and frayle membres. Now for the ferther garnysshynge of thys hys horryble heresye, hath he brought in this chapyter/ in whych he neyther proueth any thynge therof, nor any thyng goth about to proue/ but onely falleth to prechyng, and telleth vs full holyly that ys fayth is euer foughten agaynst, as though no man had euer herde that before. Where as euery chyld well woteth, that the faith is alway assawted & fought agaynst, whyther he speke of hys owne false fayth and heresyes, or of the trew catholyke fayth of Chryst. For lyke as the trew catholyke fayth is & euer hath ben oppungned and assawted, by the deuyll and all hys dyscyples suche heretykes as Tyndale is, from the begynnyng vnto thys present tyme: so hath euer hys false fayth and heresyes ben impugned, assayled, and condempned, by god and all hys Prophetes, by Chryste and all hys apostles, and all hys holy doctours and sayntes, and by all the hole corps of chrystendome from the begynnynge hytherto. And thys conflycte and batayle shall neuer ceace, tyll Chryste shall fynally refourme the worlde and fynysshe it, and delyuer the kyngdome to the father. And as for euery mannes fayth pryuately / who knoweth not though Tyndale tell vs not, that the deuyll dayly laboreth to quenche it, as he laboreth to destroye hope and cheryte and all other vertues. Nor thys we nede not to lerne of Tyndale/ neyther that men by temptacyons lerne to fynde and fele, that there is no goodnesse ne yet power to do good, but of god onely/ yf Tyndale mene that as the trouth is, that all goodnesse cometh of god, & that man hath none nor none coulde haue, neyther man nor angell but by goddes gyfte/ nor coulde haue yet any power to do good, yf god wolde wythdrawe hys grace. How be it yf he mene in thys place as he sayth wyth hys mayster Marten in many places, that man hath no power by ys fredome of his wyll to do any good, in wurkynge hym selfe wyth oddes grace, and in resystynge of tempta- cyon to, and wurkynge wyth god in the epynge of hym selfe from synne / but muste nedes in all suche thynges syt styll hym selfe astonyed & amased in a recheless slouth, and let god wurke alone: then saye I that Tyndals holy sermon is very dampnable heresye. [mi] Now where that in all the synnys that he reherseth, he sayth that our fayth peryssheth not vtterly, nor our loue & consent vnto the lawe of god/ but that they be weke, syke, and wounded, and not clene dede: I say that his tale is to lytell purpose. For yf by fayth he mene the belyefe/ then is it not of necessyte loste at all in no dedely synne excepte heresye. For the ryght bylyefe and other dedely synnes maye stand to gyther well inough. For a man may byleue trewly and do falsely, byleue ryght and lyue wronge, byleue well and be nought. And yet maye he be an electe person and fall from the trewe fayth, that is to saye the trew bylyefe, and lese it vtterly byleuynge lyes and heresyes/ and fall from grace for the tyme, and yet after that wyth helpe of grace fynde the fayth and fall therto agayne, and fynally dye therin. And yf Tyndale here by the name of fayth, vnderstande hope and truste in god, as he iugleth contynually with that worde/ for suche equyuocacyons and dyuers vnderstandynges of one worde, serue hym for hys goblettes, hys gallys, and his iuglynge stycke in all the proper poyntes of hys hole conuayaunce and hys lygier de mayne/ but as I sayde, yf by fayth he meane hope: I graunte that it dyeth not alwaye wyth the synne, nor gothe not therwyth away. But it waxeth by Tyndals doctryne oftentymes ouer grete. For by the dredeles truste of theyr techyng, the man falleth into boldenesse of synne. In whiche when he hath ferelesse longe contynued / he waxeth forcelesse and carelesse, and setteth not by synne, tyll sodeynly the deuyll out of hys hyghe harte & hawte corage stryketh hym into cowardouse drede and vtter desperacyon. For ys outragyouse encrease of theyr hope, is no very ryght hope, though it be a greater hope then it sholde be/ no more then the hete of a feuer is a ryght naturall hete, though the body be more hote then it was in helth. And therfore in suche affeccyons the soule somtyme falleth from one contrary qualyte in to a nother/ as ys body in an agew chaungeth from colde to hete, and from hete some tyme into colde agayne. Of whiche maner of chaunges of the soule, whom the deuyll dryueth out of one vice into his contrary/ may be well veryfyed these wordes of holy scrypture, They shall from colde water of the snowe, go into farre passynge hete. And yet I say that with these synnes, a trew member may lese all hope and fall in dyspayre/ and after [miv] by grace come vnto hope agayne. Now where he sayth that loue and consent to the lawe of god, is not lost by a trewe member of the electe chyrche: I wote not whyther Tyndals loue remayne or no/ but I am sure that by synne chrysten cheryte goth away. For neyther cheryte nor grace can stande to gether wyth synne. For as saynt Poule sayth, what felysshyp can there be bytwene lyght and darkenes, bytwene Chryst and Beliall. I saye also that all hys gaye goodly tale that he telleth vs here, of hys electe membres wyth theyr holy felynge fayth/ to whom he wold approper some specyall pryuylege of kepynge styll fayth, hope, & cheryte, wyth all theyr heuy hepe of horryble deuelysshe dedes/ I saye that as farforth as in hys wordes is any treuth, hys pryuylege is not proper to the membres of hys electe chyrche, but comon to the very fynall electes, & to the fynall reprobatys to. For bothe the tone and the tother may synne and repente, and amend and synne agayne, and amende agayn ofter then Tyndale hath fyngers on hys handes and toos on hys feete to. But he that fynally repenteth hys synnys in a ryght fasshyon is an electe foresene to god from the begynnynge. And he that finally dyeth impenytent, as dyuers wedded freres dye in theyr lechery/ or he that after Tyndals doctryne repenteth without care of sllryft, & dyeth in a fals heresie agaynst hys holy howsell: such folkes be fynally reprobates, fore knowen vnto god before the worlde was wrought, yt they wolde fynally for impeny- tence fall vtterly to nought. And the other part of hys tale, whyche can not be veryfyed in the reprobatys, that is to wytte the kepynge of cheryte styll in the doynge of horryble dedes, can not be veryfyed in the electes neyther. And so is his tale on euery syde folysshe, false, and nought. For the semely settynge forthe wherof to make it appere fayre and lykely/ bycause he can neyther bryng reason, scripture, nor other good authoryte: ye shall now se what ensample he bryngeth forth. Tyndale. As a good chyld whom the father and moder haue taught nurtour and wisedome, loueth his fayher and all his commaundemenyes/ and perceyueth of the goodnes shewed hym that his father loueth hym, and that all his fathers preceptes are vnto his welthe and profyte, and that his father commaundeyh hym noyhyng for any nede that his father hath therof, but seketh his profyt onely / and therfore hath a good fayth vnto all his fathers promyses, and loueth all [ni] hys commaundementes, and dothe them wyth good wyll, and wyth good wyll goeth to scole. And by the waye happely he seeth companye playe/ and wyth the syghte is taken and raueshed of hys memory, and forgetteth hym selfe, and stondeth and byholdeth and falleth to play also, forgettynge father and mother, all theyr kyndnes, all theyr lawes, and his owne profyte therto. How be it the know- ledge of hys fathers kyndnesse, the fayth of hys promyses, and the loue that he hath agayn vnto his father and the obedyent mynde, are not vtterly quenched but lye hydde, as all thynges do when a man slepeth or lyeth in a traunce. And as soone as he hath played out all hys lustes, or be warned in the meane season/ he cometh agayne vnto his olde professyon. Neuer the later many temptacyons go ouer his harte, and the lawe as a ryght hangman tormenteth hys conscyence, and gothe nye to persuade hym that his father wyll caste hym awaye and hange hym yf he ketche hym, so that he is lyke a greate whyle to runne awaye, rather then to returne vnto his father agayne/ feare and drede of rebuke, and of losse of his fayhers loue, and of punysshernent, wrastell wyyh the truste whyche he hath in his fathers goodnes, and as it were gyue hys fayth a fall / but it ryseth agayne as soone as the rage of the fyrsye brunte is past, and his mynde more quyete. And the goodnes of hys father and his olde kyndnes cometh vnto remembraunce, eyther of hys owne corage or by the comforte of some other. And he byleueth that hys father wyll not caste hym awaye or destroye hym, and hopeth that he wyll no more do so. And vppon that he getteth hym home dysmayed, but not all to gyther faythlesse. The olde kyndnesse wyll not lette hym dyspayre. How be it all the worlde can not set hys harte at reste vntyll the payne be paste, and vntyll he haue herde the voyce of hys father that all is forgyuen. More. I neyther haue yet euer herde nor neuer loke to here, any very wyse worde in all Tyndales workes. But yet herde I neuer a more peuisshe processe then this his holy prechynge is/ nor therewith more pestilently perelouse, while he pretendeth to make this chapiter of faythe, and then iugleth it in to truste and hope/ and yet wolde make vs bileue, that neither nother at any tyme faileth any man that ones hath goten them/ nor that any man whiche ones hath the faythe ys hym selfe describeth, & thereby is ones a true membre of his electe church (as euery man is by his doctrine yt ones attaineth that faith) can at any tyme after lese it nor fall awaye there from, & for that cause can neuer do dedely synne, though he do neuer so many damnable dedes, [niv] or (to call them as hym selfe calleth them) horryble dedes. For as for dampnable, happely Tyndale wyll saye they be not be they neuer so horryble, bycause the seed of god, that is to wytte theyr felynge fayth, can neuer suffer suche trewe membres of hys electe chyrche, do those horryble dedes wyllyngly or of pur- Pose, but onely for weykenesse and frayltye/ for whyche they can be sayth he no dedely synnes in those blessed bodyes, be the dedes neuer so deuelysshe. And now to proue vs thys wonderfull straunge paradox, thys opynyon inopinable, to be very playne, open, euydent, and clere/ he furnyssheth it wyth samples so feble and so dymme, that the faynt syghte of our sore eyes can scant attayne to perceyue, how the samples any thynge touche the mater. For where he sholde to make vs clerely beholde it, put hys en- samples in greate and horryble dedes, suche as hym selfe before in another chapyter confesseth that hys holy membres do: he forgetteth here now suche horryble dedes as wolde make the reders abhorre the doers of them, and speketh fayre & easely that they be feble somtyme in temptacyon, and than they can not stande/ and that after they haue synned theyr fayth is faynte, and when they sholde helpe theyr neyghboure theyr loue is colde, and they be not pacyent in trybula- cyons, and when they suffer wronge they can not forgyue lo, and when men take away theyr goodes they be angry, so they be lo. Lo how angry Tyndale is wyth hys trew membres of liis electe chyrche, and how sore he layeth theyr synnes to theyr charge. And yet bycause we sholde take theyr fautes for myche the sleyghter, he mynyssheth all the mater and maketh it myche the lesse, by re- semblynge and lykenynge them to a good lytell chylde, as though theyr fawtes were all but chyldyshnes/ and as it were a babe that wepeth and waxeth angry wyth the kyghte, for catchynge awaye hys brede and butter, and wold complayne to hys mother, and byd her go take a rodde and bete the kyght. But syth that Tyndale now goth aboute to playe the mayster, and sette all the catholyke chyrche agayne to scole/ and wolde haue vs lerne suche harde lessons as we neuer herde of the lyke/ as that men maye comenly do mys[ni]cheuouse dedes wythout any dedely synne, bycause they do them not wyllyngly where no body compelleth them: lette hym at the leste wyse syth he wyll make vs all yonge chyldren, teche vs our lesson as a good mayster techeth hys yonge chyldren. And let hym not teche vs our lesson in a small ragged hande, wherin a yonge begynner can scante perceyue one letter from an other/ but let hym teche vs in a fayre greate letter of some texte hande, that is more easy to lerne vppon. And therfore we shall pray hym to lette passe ouer for thys onys hys longe chyldysshe ensample of hys good chyld, which for all the nurture of hys father and hys mother, and all the wysedome that he lerned of them, and all his loue to them and to theyr commaundeinentes, and all the trust in his fathers promyses, for whyche he goth with good wyll to scole/ fyndynge yet by the waye some companyons that fall to playe, is rauysshed of his remem, braunce/ and forgetyng father and mother, and all theyr promyses, & all theyr kyndenes, & all theyr lawes, & all the wisedomes that he lerned of them, and all the nurtur turtur that they taught hym, standeth styll and loketh on them/ and after falleth to wurke wyth them at some suche prety playes of lykelyhed as chyldren be wont to playe, as chyrystone mary bone, bokyll pyt, spurne poynt, cobnutte or quaytyng: let vs leue I say thys good chylde at hys game, tyll he be fette eyther home wyth hys father, or to scole wyth hys mayster wyth thre strypes for hys taryenge and trewauntynge by the waye (whyche is more mete for suche a chylde, then after hys lustes played out, Tyndals tragycall processe of remembraunce of hys olde professyon, wyth temptacyons ouer hys harte, and the lawe hys ryght hange man, turmentynge of conscyence, fere of destruccyon and almoste des- perate drede of hangyng) Now let Tyndale therfore in stede of thys chyld, take for ensample some of the trew members of hys owne electe chyrche, that hath the felynge fayth of hys owne false heresyes/ and not a lytell chylde, but a great slouen slouche, that out of hys boyes age is twenty wynter stepte into hys knauys age. Then let Tyndale put in hym for ensample not as he doth here, the beynge angry wyth them that doth hyni wronge, or lacke of dew loue to the lyberall helpe of hys neyghbours nede (wyth whych mynde and softe ensamples of infyrmyte, feblenesse, imperfeccyon, and frayltye, Tyndale couereth and kepeth a syde [niv] the hatefull herynge and beholdynge of theyr abomynable dedes) but let hym put for ensample that hys trewe member thys Iak slouch that we speke of, is so frayle and so feble in temptacyons, that thorow the frute of the synne remaynynge in hys flesshe, and as Tyndale sayth brekynge out at his membres/ he fafleth into horryblc dedes (for that is Tyndals worde) as into aduoutry wyth hys mother, poysenynge hys father, and murderynge hys brother, in sacryledge, and incest as frere Luther doth wyth hys nonne, fall to mockynge of almyghty god as Tyndale doth in the blessed sacrament. Now syth we haue for ensample taken no lytell prety synnes, but rre~t and horryble dedes / and haue also taken for ensarnplc no lytell prety boy, but an olde greate knaue fytte and mete for the mater, as in whom may well and conuenyently be veryfyed all Tyndals tragycall termcs of temptacyons and turmentry, destruc- cyon, hangeman, and galowes, & all to gether: let vs in thys abomyn- able beste now, and in these horryble crymes, as in a great text hand, loke vpon our lesson that mayster Tyndalc techetli is, & sc whyther there be wryted therin the thynge tllat he wolde haue vs lerne/ or whyther that (syth we haue now suche a bokc wyth so great large letters, as wc can spell vpon and do to gcther or selfe) it shall peraduenture appere that he went aboute byfore wyth a smale ragged hande, to begyle vs and make vs rede false. Ye remember good reders that he sayth, that hys trewe membres vppon greate occasyons, as vppon the syghte of suche thynges as delyteth them, be rauesshed of theyr memory, and forget them selfe (as hys lytell good chylde doth at the syghte of thc playe) and so contynueth styll in the folowynge and fulfyllynge of hys luste, as it were a man in hys slepe or one that laye in a traunce/ and neyther is hys fayth loste in all that whyle, nor his louc to the law of god/ but though they lye hydde, yet they contynue styll bothc twayne, and hys hope and hys truste in god also. And therfore though our Iak slouche do all thosc horryble dedes yt we dyd put for ensample: yet beynge a trewe member of Tyndals electe chyrche, bycausc of hys felyng fayth which so lyeth hydde in hys harte that he feleth no thynge therof/ he consenteth not in hys mynde to none of those dedes, nor doth none of them wyllyngly nor of purpose, or at the leste [ni] wyse not malycyously (for that worde into hys olde tale putteth Tyndale of newe in hys false exposycyon vppon the fyrste pystle of saynt Iohan) and therfore in hym there can none of all those horryble dedes be dampnable or dedely synne. We myghte here lette Iak slouche alone/ & aske Tyndale whyther a nother slouche of hys acquayntaunce hys owne mayster Marten Luther, not onely a trewe member but also one of the chyefe membres of hys electe chyrche, hath lyen all thys whyle a slepe by the space of so many yeres to gether, syth he fyrst ranne out of hys order in apostasye, and after wedded hys nonne, & yet contynueth with her styll. Thys frere and hys nonne, dranke well of lykelyhed ere they went to theyr bryde bedde, yf they lye styll and slepe yet. But for as myche as Tyndale wyll not agre, that frere Luthers lechery wyth hys nonne, is any euyll dede at all, but very well done & vertuously: therfore though we nede none other ensample agaynste hys frantyke heresye to the earys of any good chrysten man, yet for Tyndale hym selfe we muste leue Luther lyenge styll a slepe wyth hys lemman, and retourne agayne to Iak slouche / whose dedes Tyndale wyll graunte and agre to be horryble, though he deny them to be dampnable bycause of Iakkes felynge fayth / whyche though he fele it not bycause he lyeth a slepe, kepeth in hym styll yet the loue to goddes lawe, and suffereth hym not to consent vnto the synne, nor to do any suche dedes wyllyngly nor of purpose, or at the leste wyse not malycyously. Let euery man here agaynste Tyndals folyshe tale and shamelesse inuencyon, take testymony and wytnesse of hys owne wytte/ whyther he that by the deuyls entycement defowleth hys mother, poyseneth hys father, and mordereth hys brother, and mocketh almyghty god, and suche other horryble and abomynable dedes oftentymes, doth delyberately wyth longe deuyce and studye bystowed about it, do thys gere wyllyngly and consent there vnto/ or ellys doth all vnwyllyngly, as he were a slepe or in a traunce. Let Tyndale tell vs what he wyll/ he shall I wene fynde no wyse man in thys poynt agre, that these bestes do theyr detestable dedes vnwyllyngly, wythout consent vnto synne. Now towchynge Tyndals tother goodly refuge, that [niv] the horryble dedes of hys trew membres of hys elect chyrche be neuer dedely synnes, bycause they do them neuer of no malyce: thys is be ye sure a very comely deuyce, whych euery wyse man ye wote well muste nedes alowe and commende. For in our ensample of Iak slouche / what indyfferent iudge wolde not holde the good man excused of all those abomynable cledes, yf it myghte appere to the court, that ys defoylyng of hys mother was not for any dyspyght or malyce borne to hys father, but of vnnaturall affeccyon and very bestely luste. And also that the poysenynge of his father, grew not of anger or euyll wyll to hys person, but of loue and longynge for hys substaunce/ and suche other excusys lyke, for all hys other detestable crymes, wherupon it myghte apppere, ys none of them all rose of anger or euyll wyll/ but some of pryde, some of couetyce, some of lechery, or such other rybaldouse appetyt. What coulde hys iudge in suche case saye to hym for very pytye, yf the poore man sayde onys he were sory/ but stroke hys hed, and byd hym go home, and be a good sonne, and do so no more. And therfore for as myche as the same Iak slouche dothe none of those detestable dedes other body, but of some kynde of affeccyon towarde hym selfe, hys loue is not vtterly quenched / and therfore he is one of Tyndals electes, that synneth neuer how bad so euer he be. For where as fynally Tyndale techeth vs, that his trew membres of hys electe chyrche do neuer synne dedely, bycause that after the luskes llaue played out all theyr lustes, then they repent agayne and remember them selfe & tlleyr fathers formar kyndenes, and be sory: thys is a fayre tale of a tubbe tolde vs of hys electes. For euery man well woteth that thus do the fynall reprobates, and be by dew repentaunce dyuers tymes in theyr lyues restored agayne to the state of grace. And then by thys tale of Tyndale, were there no dede dampnable nor dedely synne in any man, were it neuer so abomyn- able/ but onely those last synnes in whiche he dyed impenitent. And then were all Tyndals hyghe descrypcyons and dyfferences of electes and reprobates all brougllt to thys poynt at the laste, tllat theyr dedes be all one, and theyr fasshyons and theyr faythes and theyr louys to the lawe of god a lyke chaungeable thorow the remanaunt of theyr lyues, sauynge that the tone sorte dye repentaunt, and the tother sorte impenytent. And thys is the [ni] same thynge that we saye. And so is Tyndale after all his longe folysh varyaunce, at laste maugry his teth agaynst hys purpose, compelled to saye yhe same that we haue all waye sayed and he alwaye denyed. But then saye we one thynge forther, that where as the electes be by hys owne agreement the penytentes onely and the trewe re- pentauntes: neyther hym selfe Whyche repenteth not his abomynable heresyes, but stuburnly standeth by them and sayth he wyll dye in them/ nor his mayster Marten Luther, whyche notwythstandynge that the luske hath often tymes played out his luste, wyll not yet leue his lechery, but lye styll with the nonne, and defende for lawfull matrymony theyr fylthy lyfe that is afore god and all good men a very bestely bychery/ shew them selues clerely to be any of the trewe penytentes/ but vtterly to be such, as but yf they repent better ere they dye, shall elles be none of goddes fynall electes, but very wreched reprobates accursed out of goddes company, and myserable membres of the deuyls dampned chyrche in hell. Yet sayth Tindale forther in ys ende of all thys chapiter, that all be it the olde kyndenesse of the father can not let the good chylde vtterly dyspayre, for all that he hath played at spurne poynt by the waye in goynge at scolewarde: yet all the world can not set his harte at reste, vntyll the payne be past, and vntyll he haue herde the voyce of his father that all is forgyuen. These wordes wolde I haue Tyndale apply me well to hys gostely purpose/ and turnynge the sample of hys good chylde into some olde shrewe, and the playenge at spurne poynt into some detestable dede: let Tyndale then tell vs, where, what voyce, and by whom, hys trew member of his elect chyrche shall here that voyce of remyssyon. If he mene any worde spoken in scrypture all redy/ then is he soone spedde, and shall not after hys synfull cryme commytted, fall at any greate conflycte in hym selfe bytwene hope and dyspayre, hys fayth almoste catchyng a fall for fere, and at last wyth muche worke rysynge agayne. All thys gere is soone done, yf the voyce of hys father grauntynge remyssyon set hys harte at reste, and that voyce be hys worde wryten in scrypture/ for then he herde the worde before he dyd ys dede. And that worde beynge suche/ yf it were vnderstanden as Tyndale techeth, that forthwyth at the bare repentynge without shryft or penaunce, all were forgyuen, synne, payne, [niv] and all, bothe eternall and temporall, bothe in hell and purgatory and in this worlde to: that worde were than I say all redy bifore the dede, not a forgyuenes onely of the synne passed, but a lycence almoste also of all horryble dedes to be done. And if he meane to here the voyce of his father afterwarde, not wrytten before/ he muste here it by the mouthe of his goostely father vpon his humble shryfte and con- fessyon, whiche Tyndall calleth the crafte and inuencion of Sathan. And this is lo the conclusion of Tyndall in this his chapitre, of his false faithe euer assawted/ whiche is as ye se nowe taken here with assawte, pece mele on euery syde wounded, spoyled, and bounden/ and quycke of felyng as any blayne or botche, but vtterly dede of grace sent downe vnto the deuyll. Tyndale. The maner and ordre of our election. EVYN so goth it wyth goddes electes. God choseth them fyrste, and they not god, as thou redest Iohan. i5. And then he sendeth forth and calleth theym, and sheweth them hys good wyll which he beareth vnto them, and makeyh them se both theyr owne dampnacion in the lawe, and also the mercy that is layed vp for them in Christes blode, and thereto what he will haue them do. And then when we se his mercy, we loue him agayne, and chose hym, and submitte our selues vnto his lawes to walke in them. For when we erre not in wytye, reason, and iudgement of thinges, we can not erre in wyll and choyse of thinges. The choyse of a mans wyll dothe naturally and of her owne accorde, folowe the iudgement of a mans reason, whether he iudge right or wronge. So that in teachinge, onely resteth the pythe of a mans lyuinge. More. THIS chapiter dependeth vpon the chapiter before, in whiche he compared hys true membres of his electe chyrche vnto his good child, whom his father taught nurter and wysedome, and sent hym to scole, & he lyke a mycher & a trewaunt plaied at bokle pytte by the way/ & when the game was done, fell almoste in dispayre of lyfe for fere [oi] of hangyng, yf hys father caughte hym/ and yet sone after well and wysely recomforted hym selfe, wyth the remembraunce of hys fathers olde goodnesse/ and so came home agayne lyke a good lytle boy, & herde hys fathers voyce of forgeuenesse / whych sette hys hart at reste/ & than he wentte to supper meryly/ & than the mayed put on hys byggen & brought hym to bedde/ and than he cared for no more, but was mery in the mornyng, and redy to go playe the boy agayne as he dyd before. And now therto Tyndale ioyneth thys chapytre/ saynge, <2Euen so goth it with goddes electe.>2 Yet sith he resembleth goddes electe vnto the lytle boy/ he shuld haue put into the sample of his litle chyld, that his lytle chyld some- tyme whan he hathe played the lytle yong trewaunt, for all hys remembraunce of hys fathers goodnes, is for fere of hys fathers angre glad to go to some other frendes of hys fathers, and pray theym to bryng hym home, and helpe to skewse hym and kepe hym from betynge. And than he shulde haue begon thys chapytre as he dothe now and say, Euen so goth it with goddes elect. For yf the sample of hys good chyld maye preue all the remenaunte for hym/ than may it preue thys one pece as well for vs, ys the electe after hys offence, seketh vnto sayntes as hys fathers frendes, and prayeth them to helpe to entreat for hym/ for so do many tymes suche good chyldren ye wote well as Tyndale putteth hys sample by. But we wyll nat now for thys tyme trouble Tyndale moche wyth that mater. I wolde that in thys chapytre all were well saue ys. For surely thys chapytre is very nought/ and hath in hit the secrete seed of Tyndales chyefe poyson, whereby he laboreth after Luther, vnder colour & pretexte of goddes eleccion, to destroye the fre wyll of man, & ascribe all thyng to desteny. Whyche thynge is natte in hyt selfe so false / but Tyndale proueth it as folysshely, as ye shall perceyue anone. But fyrst consydre howe darkly the man walketh in his way styll. For yet he handeleth it of that fasshyon, that he wold nat we shuld se, whyther he mene by this word elect, the man that is electe for the tyme, after the maner of any of those eleccyons that I declared you byfore in the begynnyng of my fourth boke/ or whyther he meane of those ele[oiv]ctes ys are of god byfore the begynnyng of the worlde forsene, to be suche as by hys gyfte and grace and good wyll wurkyng therwyth, in folke of age and wytt therto, shulde and wolde dye in the state of grace and be saued, and therefore be called some tyme fynall electes, sometyme eternall. Thus whyche kynd of electes hym selft meneth, Tyndale leueth vndeclared/ & wyll we shall gesse at llys mynde vppon hys vncer- tayne wordes, to the ende that he myghte euer haue some refuge into a startyng hole / and whanne he were playnely confuted and re- proued, crye out vpon me than and say that I mysse take hym. But I am content to take hym therfore, that waye that maye be the strengest for hym selfe/ and that way that hys wordes gathered oute of dyuers of his chapitres, some byfore and some here after, shewe moste lykely that he shulde mene, whan they be consydered to gyther. And that is as me semeth, that he meneth of those electes that are called ys fynall and eternall electes/ all be it that the place of scrypture in ys .xv. chapytre of saynt Iohan whych Tyndale alledgeth here for hys electes, lytle maketh for hys purpose con- cernynge that fynall or eternall eleccyon / nat onely bycause the wordes of Chryste spoken there to hys apostles, can nat conuenyently serue for those whych swarue from the trew doctryne of Chrystes catholyque chyrche that the apostles taught, into false heresyes / but also for that our sauyour in those wordes when he sayed vnto them, you haue nat chosen me but I haue chosen you, and apoynted you that you shall go forth and bryng frute, and your frute shall abyde/ he spake there not of there fynall eleccion to saluacion / which eleccion hym seffe foresawe in hys godhed byfore ye world was made, and whyche eleccyon therefore is called eternall. But he spake there of that elec- cyon onely, by whiche he chose and elected them to be hys apostles and messengers, to be sent about the worlde to prech hys gospel/ as playnly appereth by those aforesayd wordes, I haue chosen you, & appoynted you to go and bryng in fruyt/ and fynally is the same eleccyon, wherof he spake whan he sayd, Haue I nat elected and chosen you twelue, & lo one of you is a deuyll? And therfore as I say, the man layeth the scrypture very farre from hys mater. But now takyng him as he wold say if his wyt wold serue [oi mis- marked 0i] him, ys is to wyt that by his worde electes, he meneth the fynall and eternall electes: lette vs se and consider what high doc- trine and before vnherde, maister Tindall techeth vs of them. He sayeth that after that god hathe chosen them (and telleth nat whan/ whither after their commynge into the worlde, or before the worlde were made / so that he leaueth it by those wordes yet in doubte which eleccion he moueth, whether vnto saluacion in the churche tryumphaunte in heuen, or onely in to the churche here milytaunte in erthe) <2god he sayeth sendethforthe and calleth vpon them,>2 <2and sheweth them his good wyll whiche he bereth vnto them.>2 Nowe here falleth Tyndall in two fautes. One is that these wordes of hys can nat be verifyed vpon all electes, syth many dye in theyr cradelles, and many in theyr crysomes/ but yf he reken all those for none electes, bycause they can vnderstande no prechynge. Another faute is, yt ye thyng whiche he semeth here to approper vnto the electes, be commune bothe to the electes and reprobates. For all this god dothe to them to, that are nat his electes, but vnto suche also as wyll be & therfore shalbe, fynall repro- bates. For god of his goodnes wyllinge as the scripture sayth all men to be saued / sent his sonne in to this worlde, to call vpon the whole worlde. And he sent his apostelles aboute the worlde as a lorde and god indifferent, without accepcyon of persones as sayd saynt Peter. But than gothe Tyndall farther and sayth, <2that god maketh his>2 <2electes see bothe theyr owne dampnacion in the lawe, and also the mercye that is>2 <2layde vpfor them in Christes bloode, and therto what he wyll haue them do.>2 These wordes men wolde wene were but well & plainly ment. For they may seme to good playne meanynge men, to be well & plainly spoken, and as well and plainly ment. But yet as ye shall shortely see in these wordes, that god maketh his electes se his mercy/ as playne wordes as they be, and as innocent and as simple as they seme, yet in them meneth Tyndale couertly to come forthe with his poyson of false prechynge the predestinacyon of god, with destrucion of the fre wyll of man concernynge any maner of deuoure of them selfe towarde the beleue and faythe. For he meneth here, that god alway maketh the electes to se these thynges, without any wyll of theyr owne any thynge wor[oiv]kynge with god towarde the syght thereof/ and that all the reprobates that shalbe dampned for lacke of the beleue, be reprobated and reiected and lefte vnchosen, and kept from  the syght and perceyuynge of the thynges to be beleued, without any demeryte or euyll deserte of theyr owne, onely bicause god lyste nat to make them see. And that Tyndale thus falsely meneth by those fayre playne wordes/ ye shall farther perceyue by other wordes of Tyndals owne wrytynge, afterwarde in his answere to the fyrste chapyter of the thyrde boke of my dyaloge. For where as I there shewed, that the very bokes of the scripture it selfe, can nat make men beleue ys scripture, nor very surely knowe whyche were the very true scripture of god, and whiche were scriptures countrefete, sauyng that the catholyke churche techeth vs to knowe the scrypture / and the spirite of god, with mannes owne towardnesse and good endeuoure, worketh in man the credulite and belefe by whiche we bothe beleue the churche in techyng vs whiche is the scripture, & also by whiche we beleue the thinges that are wrytten in the scrypture: to this bycause I sayde there, that whan we here the scrypture or rede it, if we be nat rebellious but endeuour our selfe to beleue, & captyue and subdue our vnderstandyng to serue and folowe fayth, prayenge for goddes gracious ayde and helpe, god than worketh with vs, and inwardely dothe inclyne our harte in to the assent of the thynge that we rede/ and after a lytell sparke of our faythe ones had, increaseth the credence in our incredilyte: Tyndale to this in mockage of mennes endeuour towarde the belefe, and in scornynge that we wolde captyue our vnderstandyng into ye seruyce of fayth, answereth me with an hydeous exclamacion/ and cryenge out vpon my flesshelynes and foly, fometh out his hyghe spirituall sentence in this fassyon. Tyndale. O howe betleblynde is flesshely reason. The wyll hath none operacion at all in the workynge of faythe in my soule, no more than the chylde hathe in the begettynge of his father. For (sayeth Paule) it is the gyfte of god and nat of vs. My wytte muste shewe me a true cause or an apparent cause why, yer my wyll haue any workynge at all. More. Nowe perceyue you good christen reders, what an vnchristen mynde this euyll christen man hathe in those wor[oi]des, that seme so fayre and playne in this present chapyter. For thoughe he speke nat out so plainly in this chapyter, as he dothe after in his answere to my thyrde boke as ye haue here herde: yet that he falsely meneth in eyther place alyke, ye may yet more plainly perceyue by hya wordes yt in this chapiter immedyatly folow/ which are such as may be as well ioyned to his foresayde wordes of his answere vnto my thyrde boke, as to the wordes vnto whiche they be knytte in this present chapyter. In whiche whan he hathe sayed that god maketh his electes se theyr dampnation in ys lawe, and also the mercy that is layed vp for them in Christes bloode, and therto what he Wyll haue them do/ it foloweth than forthwith, Tyndale. And then when we se his mercy, we loue hym agayne, and chose hym, and submytte our selues vnto his lawes to walke in them. For when we erre not in wytye, reason, and iudgement/ we can not erre in wyll and choyse of thynges. The choyse of mannes wyll doth naturally and of her owne accorde, folow the iugement of a mannes reason, whyther he iudge ryghte or wronge/ so that in techyng onely resteth the pyth of a mannes lyuynge. More. Now trust I good reders, that it is inoughe that we perceyue and se, what Tyndale entendeth in thys chapitre of the ordre of our eleccyon/ and that for all hys great exclamacyon, we be nat yet so betle blynd, but that we spye well inough whyche way this Wyly serpent walketh/ and that he goth about vnder colour of the prayse and commendacyon of goddes predestinacion and ordynaunce vtterly concernyng fayth, to put a way the wurke of mannes fre wyll/ and yet ouer that though somwhat more couertely, of trouthe concernyng all other good workes to. And all be it that he seme here to gyue mannes wyll in maner lyke place, in the acte of our loue toward god, as he gyueth god in the worke of our belyefe and fayth in vs: yet whan he is well perceyued, he bryngeth all to suche ineuytable necessyte, that both in the tone and the tother, and in all maner of good workes, he taketh vtterly away all maner of meryt from the good men and electes / & gyueth vnto the euyll peple and reprobatys an excuse for them selfe, and an occasion to lay the wight of there iuste dampnacion, to the vniustyce of goddes eternall ordynaunce and moste ryghtuouse predestynacyon. And yet are all hys reasons [oiv] in thys greate mater so small, that a man may nat well wyt whyther they be more wykked or more wyttelesse. Nowe all be it that I shall purpose to treat of thys matter more at longe wyth Tyndale, whan I shall come to the connfutacion of hys fond answeres made vnto tlle thyrde & fourth bokes of my dyaloge: yet can I nat presently forbere somwhat to shewe you of hys abomyn- able errour in thys poynt. And yet in good fayth me semeth no very great nede/ hys folyes after hys wordes of bothe the places brougllt forth and layde togyther, be now so playne and euydent of them selfe. For who is so betle blynde, that seeth nat clerely ys darke deuelysll heresye of thys hyghe spyrytuall heretyque, that sayth it is a betle blynde fleshely reason, to thynke that the good endeuour of the mannes parte in wyllyngly conformyng hym selfe towarde the fayth, and captyuyng and subdewyng hys reason and vnderstandyng in to the obsequy and obedyent seruyce of belysefe, shulde be no maner helpe nor furtheraunce towarde the gettyng of any crysten fayth but ys the wyll hath none operacyon at all in the workynge of fayth in mannes soule, no more than the chylde hath in the bygetting of his father. For here ye se wel that we speke of suche as are of age and haue the vse of reason. If mannes wyll had no more part towarde the attaynynge of the belyefe, than the chylde hath in the bygettyng of hys owne father/ I se nat wherfore our sauyoure shulde call vppon the people and byd them do penaunce, and beleue the gospell, as he dothe in the fyrste chapytre of saynt Marke. For though it be very trew, that wythout goddes helpe and goddes grace preuentyng and foregoyng, no man can beleue: yet yf there were nothynge in the man hym selfe, wherby he myght receyue it yf he wolde wyth grace whych god of hys goodnesse offreth, apply hym selfe towardely to the receyuing therof, & wherby on the tother syde he myght frowardly refuse it, or of slouth and necligence so sleyghtly regarde it that he were worthy to lese it: yf there were I say no suche thyng in the man wherby he hym selfe myght som what do therin wyth god, our lorde wolde nat call vppon men, and exhort them to beleue, and prayse them that wyll beleue, and rebuke them that wyll nat byleue, as he doth in many playne places of the scrypture. [oi] But now agaynst god and hys holy scryptures, it is a worlde to se what slendre thynges Tyndale alledgeth. Fyrst he sayth that it is a betle blynd fleshely foly, to reken that ys good endeuour of man shuld be any thyng worth towarde the atteynyng of fayth, because that faythe is the gyfte of god. Is nat here an hygh reason? Who denyeth that faythe is a gyfte of god? But what letteth that, that a man maye nat by hys towardnes, endeuour hym selfe to receyue the gyfte of god by goddes goodnes frely offred vnto hym/ or by hys frowardnes slougtli or neclygence, lese and forgo ye gyfte of god? Is it any thyng agaynst the nature of gyfte, to be as wyllyngly receyued and taken as it is offered and gyuen? If a man wolde gyue Tyndale a cuppe of golde/ wolde Tyndale call it no gyfte, yf hym selfe dyd with good wyll put forth hys hand to take it? Doth the willyng byhauyour of the taker, chaunge the name and the nature of the gyfte, or any thyng mynyshe the fre lyberall mynde of the gyuer? In good fayth I muste nedes confesse my selfe so betle blynde, that I can se no reason at all neyther fleshely nor goostly in thys reason of Tyndale / nor as I wene Tyndals owne sharpe egle yien neyther. What good thynge is there that is nat the gyfte of god? hoope charytie, contynence, pitye, lernyng, wysedome, or any thynge this worlde yt ought is. For as sayeth saynt Iames, euery good perfyte gyfte is frome aboue discendynge rom the father of lyghtes. And saynt Poule sayth, what haste thou yt thou haste nat receyued? And of whome ment he all thinge receyued, but of goddes gyfte? Nowe shall euery man than in Tyndals hyghe spirytuall iudgement, be taken for flesshely and betleblynde, that wyll be so folysshe to put any endeuoure of his owne to laboure and worke with god, in the gettynge of hope or charytie, pytefull affeccion or chastyte, lernynge, iustyce, wysedome, or any other good thynge. Bycause they be all gyftes of god, a man muste therfore sytte euyn styll and do nothynge towarde it, tyll god come and gyue hym all thynge vnware. For if he may beware before/ than muste he by Tyndal, do nat so moche as be willyng to receyue it. For he that by his wyll receyueth it, and whiche shulde els for his frowardenesse and contrarye wyll go without it: he dothe ye wote well somwhat more in gettyng therof, than doth the sonne in the begettynge of his owne father/ wherein the sonnes [oiv] wyll that is yet vnbegoten, can nothinge make nor marre. Where as in the gettynge, attaynynge, and receyuynge of these vertues/ the wyll of the man conformable & toward, worketh with god and doth somwhat/ not as a dede vesel, where into Tyndale putteth and powreth hys bere/ but as a quycke instrument, as the hand of ye man that wyttyngly and wyllyngly receyueth a gyfte of a nother mannes lyberall offer. Now yf Tyndale wolde here labour to make vs betleblynde wyth hys blonte soteltees, and tell vs that we can do nothynge tyll god preuent vs wyth his grace, nor nothyng but as hys grace goth on forth wyth vs: these tales when they be all tolde, be not wortll a whystle. For ye maye tell hym agayne, that we saye noy that mannes endeuoure can and good do wythout god. But we saye that when men endeuoure them selue towarde so good a thynge/ they maye then make them selfe sure, that god hath preuented theym wyth hys grace, for elles they coulde not so do/ and that he is redy wyth hys grace to walke forwarde wyth them. And syth theyr endeuoure towarde god is good: therfore yf they wyll styll perceyuer and walke on styll wyyh god, he wyll walke on styll wyth them. And theyr endeuour shall not be a voyde folysshe thynge as Tyndale calleth it/ but a frutefull worke towarde the attaynynge of fayth, though Tyndale wolde saye nay therto. I wolde also very fayne wytte of Tyndale/ yf hym selfe were as ferme and as faste in the trewe chrysten fayth, as he is in hys heresyes/ and then shulde happen to fall in company wyth eyther Paynyme, Turke, Saracen, or Iewe, & wolde exhorte them to the chrysten fayth / and that all be it they graunted hym the bylyefe of one almyghtye god, yet for aught that he sayd vnto them, he founde them farre of from the bylyefe (not onely of the sacrament of the awlter, from whyche hymselfe is now as farre of as any of them) but also farre of from the bylyefe of the sonne & holy goste, and fynally from the takynge of our scryptures for holy or for wrytynges worthy credence: what aduyce and counsayle wolde Tyndale gyue them? Wolde he not aduyse and counsayle them to pray vnto god, and to call ayde of hym, that it myght please hyrn to helpe to lede them in the waye of the ryght bylyefe/ and that he wold with his grace helpe theym to inclyne theyr hartes in to the folowynge of that [pi] thynge, that shulde be vnto hys pleasure and the saluacyon of theyr owne soules/ whych kynde & prayour they myght assente vnto wythout any preiudyce of theyr owne fayth, Wolde he not also counsayle them to faste and forbere women, to the entent theyr prayour myghte be the more clene and pure/ and aduyse them also to gyue good almoyse for goddes sake, as dyd Cornelius when saynt Peter was sent vnto hym therfore? Wolde he not also counsayle them to be not wylfull nor obstynate, but conformable and wyllynge to here and lerne the trouth and vpon the herynge therof gladly to prente in theyr hartes those thynges that moste make towarde the mouyng and inclynacyon of theyr myndes, toward the credence therof? And wold he not tell them that thorow suche towarde and wyllynge demeanure on theyr parte (in the doynge wherof, theym selfe not lackyng nor beyng slouthfull, god wolde not fayle to preuent them wyth hys grace, helpe, & fauour, and be before them) god wolde lede them and go forth with them, & neuer leue them nor forsake them, tyll he wolde wyth theyr owne good endeuoure walkynge and workynge with hym, brynge them fyrste into the ryght bylyefe and good hope and godly cheryte, with other many vertuouse and good wurkes procedyng therupon/ & fynally by that meane, after thys transytory lyfe, into ye perpetuall blesse & eternall ioyes of heuen? Whyther wolde Tyndale aduyse them thus? Whyche yf he dyd/ then sholde he teche them that mannys endeuoure towarde fayth, is not a thynge to be mocked as hym selfe mocketh it now/ but that mannes own wyll doth somwhat more towarde it, then doth the chylde to the bygettynge of hys owne father. Or ellys wolde Tyndale for- bydde them all suche thynges in any wyse, & tell them that theyr owne endeuoure wolde rather hynder, and make theym ascrybe the fayth that is ys gyfte of god vnto the meryte & goodnes of theyr owne wyll, theyr owne towardenesse, theyr owne prayours, theyr owne contynence, almoyse dede, & fastynge, and all theyr other endeuoure. All whyche thynges yf Tyndale take for nought or peryllouse/ then is it lykely that he wolde of consequence aduyce those dyscyples of hys to be well ware of all suche thynges, & do none of them in no Wyse, for the counsayle to such thynges coulde come but of betle blynde flesshely reason. And therfore Tyndales dyscyples, [piv] towarde the gettyng of the fayth, to the entent they shulde take therof no parte vnto theyr owne prayse, but gyue the hole glory to god/ sholde I saye by hys aduyse vse none endeuoure at all, nor do no thynge, nor saye no thynge, nor thynke no thynge, but sytte euen styll sadly, and gape by daye agaynste the sonne, by nyght agaynste the mone, tyll eyther some blynde betle or some holy humble bee come flye in at theyr mouthes, and buzze in to theyr brestes an vnholsome hepe of flye blowen errours and motthe eten heresye And thus good chrysten readers, the reason that Tyndale maketh vs agaynste the endeuoure of man towarde the attaynynge of fayth/ whyche endeuoure he mocketh & calleth it a counsayle of betle blynde reason, bycause fayth is the gyfte of god: I dowte not I saye but that hys reason is suche, that a man that were betle blynde in dede, may perceyue well inough that Tyndale for lacke of good endeuoure, hath had of the gyfte of god lytell wytte and lesse grace, in makynge of that feble and vnlawful reason. Tyndals other reason agaynst the good endeuour of mannes wyll is thys. Tyndale. My wyt muste shewe me a trewe cause or an apparent cause why, yere my wyll haue any workynge at all. More. Lette Tyndale set hys consequente and conclusyon to thys antece- dent made of thys reason, and saye, My wytte muste fyrste shewe me some cause eyther trewe or somwhat semynge trewe, before that my wyll can any thynge do at all: ergo none endeuoure of my selfe in conformynge and applyenge of my wyll, can any thynge do at all. And now when hys argument is all made vp/ ye shall fynde it as full of reason as an egge full of mustarde. For what though my wytte and reason muste fyrste set my wyll a wurke/ can yet my wyll when it is ones moued dyuersly bytwene two reasons, no thynge do at all in remouynge an obstynat lenynge to the tone syde, or in workyng of a conformable inclynacyon towarde the consent of the tother. If all the fayth of suche trewthes as are taughte, were in suche wyse inspyred into euery mannes harte that is a [pi] faythfull man, as he by that inwarde inspyracion had such a full perfayt and clere perceyuynge therof, in the inwarde syghte of the vnderstandynge, as the bodyly eye hath of ys thynge that it playnely seeth and loketh vppon/ or as the syghte of the soule hath in suche euydent and open conclusyons, as it dothe playnely and openly byholde / suche I meane as are the generall petycyons in the fyrste boke of Euclidis geometry, as that euery hole thynge is more then hys owne halfe or suche other lyke: then wold I well agre wyth Tyndale, that when the thynge were so shewed vnto my wytte, I coulde not but agre therto wyth my wyll. But I say that all be it god is able in suche wyse to inspyre and infounde the fayth yf that hym lyste: yet I saye that ordynaryly into hys faythfull folke, neyther fynall reprobates nor fynall electes (for faythfull are at sundry tymes of both the sortes) he gyueth not the bylyefe or fayth on that fasshyon. For yf he dyd/ then were it not fayth nor bylyefe, but very syghte and knowlege. And suche kynde of so certayne and open reuelacyon, were vnto the man occasyon of bylyefe and credence necessaryly, surely, and ineuytable/ but therfore as it semeth, neyther thank worthy nor rewardable. Now dothe god wyth hys chrysten folkes ordynaryly take that waye in the gyuynge theym theyr bylyefe and fayth, that though they do not meryte wyth any forgoyng good dedes, nor deserue the gyfte of byleuynge/ yet maye they wyth good endeuoure and obedy- ente conformyte, deserue and meryte in the beleuynge. And therfore syth god wyll for that cause bynde vs to the bylyefe, bycause he wyll that we meryte and be rewarded for our bylyefe (the reason of whyche deserte and meryt on our parte, standeth in the respecte and regarde that god hath to our obedyence, by whyche we wyllyngly submytte our selues to the credence of goddes worde wryten or vnwryten, tellynge vs any thynge agaynste oure owne reason tellynge vs the contrary) then yf our bylyefe loste hys meryte (as that holy pope saynte Gregory sayth it shulde) yf reason playnely proued vs the thynge that we byleue: so were the meryte of our bylyefe loste in lyke wyse, yf the thynge were in suche wyse gyuen vs as we more perfytely perceyued it then we perceyue any suche as reason maye moste perfytely proue vs. [piv] And therfore I say, that god dothe nat ordinaryly gyue into men the faythe in suche maner/ bycause he wyll nat vtterlye take awaye the meryte fro man/ for as moche as he hathe ordayned hym to ioye by the meane of some meryte, some conflycte, passyon, or payne vpon his owne parte, though nat suflicient & worthy (for as saynt poule sayth, all the passyons and sufferaunces of this worlde, be nat worthy the glory that is to come that shalbe reueled in vs) yet suche at the leste wyse as his hyghe goodnes accepteth and rewardeth for worthy, thorowe the force and strength of those merytes yt are in dede sufficient & worthy/ the merytes I meane of ys bytter payne and passyon of his alone onely begotten and tenderly beloued sonne. Than say I nowe, that syth ys faythe is nat ordinaryly with suche open ineuitable and inuincyble lyghtsomnes inspyred in to the soule, that the man muste of necessyte and very fyne force clerely perceyue and agree it/ but by god prouyded so sufficiently to be shewed & taught, as he that wyll be conformable and walke with goddes grace, may fynde good cause inoughe to captyue llls reason to the belefe/ and yet nat so great and vrgent causes, but that he whiche wyll be yll wylled and frowarde, may let grace go. and fynde him selfe cauellacyons prowdely to rest upon his owne reason agaynste the worde of god/ eyther sayenge that his reason seeth it nat sufficiently proued for goddes worde (as Tyndale sayeth in all goddes wordes vnwrytten) or elles that goddes worde is nat so ment as all Christes churche vnderstandeth them (as Tyndale sayeth touchyng ys playne scrip- tures agaynste the maryages made bytwene freres & nonnes) the poyntes of the faythe are nat I saye in suche wyse shewed, nor the wytte in them so thoroughly and so clerely instructed / but that the thynge whiche in the wytte lacketh and remayneth imperfyte, may by the wyll be perfyted and made vp/ and in stede of sure and certayne sight, be from distruste or doubtefull opinyon broughte by god workynge with mannes wyll into sure faythe and vndouted belefe. And this I say for the tyme of this presente lyfe/ and in the lyfe to come, than turned into full syghte and ineuitable contem- placyon. And that thys is the ordynary maner of the fayth geuen by god into the soule, wyth the plyable and comfortable wyll of man/ and not an ineuytable syght of the trouth inspyred [pi] into the man whyther he wyll or not, in suche maner wyse that he can not chose but bileue it/ the scryptures be playne and euydent. Doth not saynt Poule vnto the Hebrewes in the dyffynycyon of fayth, openly and clerely declare, that the faythe is an argument or mater ofthynges that appere not. Now yf the resurreccyon of our owne body were in thys Worlde in suche maner apperynge vnto vs, as it shall after the resur- reccyon when we be in heuen/ it were now no fayth at all but a sure knowlege. And therfore sayth saynte Poule also, that we se now as it were but in a glasse, & perceyue & beholde but as it were in a darke rydle/ but in the tother worlde shall we se face to face. To shewe also that god geueth not ordynaryly ye faythe to folke, but wyth some maner of towardnes and conformyte of theyr owne good wyll/ our lorde sayth hym selfe vnto the cytye that he so sore longed to con- uerte, Hierusalem Hierusalem, how oft haue I wylled to gather thy chyldren to gether, as an henne gathereth to gether her chykens, and thou woldeste not. No man here dowteth, but that our lorde yf he wolde haue vsed some suche wayes as he coulde/ it was in hys power to inspyre the knowlege of hym selfe into theyr hartes, and of all thynge that he wolde haue them byleue/ and that in suche wyse, that they sholde not chose but byleue, for they sholde not chose but knowe it/ & that in suche wyse that they coulde not haue thought the contrary. But god had determyned to brynge man to saluacyon, not in suche ineuytab1e wyse, nor wythout some wyllynge conuersyon and turnynge of man towarde hym/ though man can not turne vnto hym without preuencyon & concurraunt helpe of goddes especyall grace. But syth the goodnesse of god prouydeth, that his grace is euer redy to hym that wyll vse it / therfore though the wyll of man mayye no thyng do with out grace, yet wythout any spekynge of grace we comenly let not to saye, man maye do thys, and man maye do that, as byleue, and hope, and loue, and lyue chast, & do almoise, and faste, & many such other thynges/ not menyng though we make no mencyon of grace, that man can therfore do them wythout grace. Lyke as we saye that a man maye se to threde a nedle and speke no thyng of the lyght, and yet mene we nat that he can threde it in the darke. [piv] And therfore let nat Tyndale loke to bryng vs in darkenesse/ and because mannes wyll can nothynge do without grace, therfore tell vs that mannes wyll can nothynge do, nor tell vs neyther that mannes wyll hath no parte in belefe and faythe / and make vs wene it were so, bicause the wyll can nat as he sayeth go before the wytte/ wherof experyence proueth many tymes the contrary, and sometyme with Tyndale to. But thoughe a man can nat haue any wyll at all in that thynge wherof he hathe vtterly nothyng knowen nor herde tell of, nor hadde imagynacion in hys mynde, nor any thynge thought vpon: yet when ys mynde with dyuers reasons and argumentes is ones moued of a mater, the wyll as it happeth of other occasyons at ye tyme to be well or euyll affectionate, so may gyue it selfe into the consent and agrement of the tone syde or of the tother/ ye and that somtyme on that syde for affection, vpon whiche syde he seeth leste parte of his wytte and reason. And therfore it is nat alwaye true that Tyndale sayeth in these wordes, Tyndale. And than whan we se his mercy, we loue hym agayne, and chose hym, and submytte our selfe to his lawes to walke in them. More. Here semeth he to gyue as moche to the workynge of mannes wyll concernynge charyte, as he before toke from it concernynge faythe. For here he sayeth that we chose god, and submitte ourseffe to his lawes/ where as of truth without his grace, bothe preuentyng vs and concurraunt with vs, we can in these thynges neyther, do nothynge at all. Nowe meneth Tyndall ferther for all this, that mannes wyll in these thynges yet dothe nothynge worke at all but of necessyte. For he sayeth yt god maketh them to se his mercy by fayth, without any maner working of their wylles, as ye haue herde. And than he sayeth that vpon the sight thereof/ they loue god, and chose hym, and submytte them selfe to his lawes. But yet sayeth he, that their wylles do this of ineuitable necessyte. And than can no man if Tyndals lye be trewe, neyther in faythe nor charyte haue any meryte at all. For what can a man deserue, in beleuynge ys thynge that he thoroughly seeth, or in doynge a thynge whan he can do none other. Nowe that Tyndale so saieth, [pi] is open and playne by these wordes that he consequentely sayeth. Tyndale. For whan we erre nat in wytte, reason, and iugement/ we can nat erre in wyll & choyce of thynges. For the choyse of mannes wyll doth naturally and of her owne accorde, folowe the iudgement of a mannes reason whether he iudge ryght or wronge/ so that in techynge onely resteth the pythe of a mannes lyuinge. More. Here ye se that Tyndale in louynge and chosynge by whiche man loueth and cheseth god, putteth a playne necessyte that mannes wyll can none other do, bycause he seeth the mercy of god by faythe/ whiche as Tyndall sayde before, man seeth also of necessyte, and so consequently no meryte in neyther nother. But Tyndale sayeth vntrue in bothe. For man neyther of necessyte seeth the tone, nor of necessyte dothe the other, but may do the contrary bothe in the tone and the tother/ and therfore in doynge bothe, meryteth in bothe what so euer Tyndale saye. But yet sayeth Tindale vntrue in these other two thinges also/ that is to wytte bothe where he sayeth, that whan a man seeth the mercy of god, than he loueth and choseth god, and submytteth hym selfe to walke in goddes lawes/ and also where he sayeth for the profe of that poynte, that whan we erre nat in wytte, we can nat erre in will/ but that the choyce of the wyll dothe euer folowe the iudgement of the reason. For fyrste what question is there, but that many whiche ryght surely beleue the mercy of god, do nat yet loue god in suche wyse as is requisite vnto saluacyon/ that is in the preferrynge his pleasure before theyr owne, and to forbere synne for the loue of his lawe, and for the regarde of his goodnes to fulfyll hys commaundementes. But we fynde it many tymes farre contrarye, that the ouer great regarde of his mercy, turneth truste into presumpcyon, and maketh men the more bolde in synnc/ so forsothe that neyther loue of god, nor desyre of heuen, nor drede of hell, is able to pulle them backe. Nowe as touchyng the tother point, that whan we erre nat in wyll and iudgement, we can nat erre in will & choyce of thynges/ but that the wyll alway doth naturally accorde and agree to folowe the iudgement of reason, whether it [piv] iudge ryght or wronge: we shal differ the sotletees of that disputacyon, tyll we come to the place in hys answere vnto my thyrde and fourthe boke of my dyaloge, where I purpose god wyllyng, to touche this matter more full/ & wyll at this tyme nothynge els obiecte agaynste hym, than the play- nest profe that can be, that is to wytte euery mannes owne expery- ence and expresse perceyuinge of the contrary. For many a wretche that dothe an abominable dede, seeth and perceyueth full well that he dothe very noughte, and that he shulde nat do so/ and his wytte and his reason forbideyll hym. But his wyll fallynge from the folow- ynge of his reason, to the fulfyllyng of his fleshely desyre & beestly luste and deuelysshe appetite, accomplyssheth his detestable dede/ nat for any lacke of wyt and reason, but thorowe faute of the frowarde wyll wyttyngly workynge for pleasure agaynste reason. Many a man that hathe a great wytte and a great reason to, and moche lernynge ioyned vnto them bothe, dothe yet more folys- shely and more vnresonably, than doth some other whose wytte and reason is very farre vnder his, and as for lernynge hathe vtterly none at all. And wherof commetll this? buy in that the tone with no lernynge & no great wytte, hath great good wyll to worke with goddes grace and do well/ and the tother with moch wytte and lernyng, lacketh the wyll to worke well after his reason/ & yllerefore letteth grace go by, and wylfully foloweth affeccion. And yf Tyndale in this beleue nat me, nor all the wyde worlde besyde/ he wyll I truste at the leste wyse beleue him selfe. Nowe than sayeth he in mo places of his boke than one, that I se the truthe well inoughe, and that I se well inoughe that I shuld nat do as he sayeth I do, wyttingly and wylfully wryte agaynste the truthe. Wherin if he wyll nowe confesse that he sayeth vntrue/ lette hym reuoke hys lye and call it backe agayn, and than god forgyue him and I do. And if he wyll abyde styll by that worde that he said than/ than muste he go fro this worde quyte that he sayeth nowe. For yf I wote well I do nat well, and yet for all that I do it/ than is there one man at the leste wyse whose wyll foloweth nat his wytte. And than if I be suche one, I shall nat I truste lyue all alone/ but shall rather than fayle, fynde Tyndale hym selfe so good a felowe, as to falcefye his owne wordes here and bere a pore man company. [qi mismarked pi] And that his wordes here be very false in dede/ dothe yet farther appere by hys conclusyon that he concludeth theron, if his conclusyon do necessarily folowe. For hys conclusyon is this, that in teching onely standeth the pythe of a mannes lyuynge. For if this be false as in dede it is/ than if it necessarely folowe vpon hys other wordes, hys other wordes must nedes be as false as it/ for vpon a truth nothyng can there folowe but truthe, as euery man lerned well knoweth. But nowe knoweth euery man very well, that all the pythe of a mannes lyuynge standeth nat in onely techyng. For many be full well taught howe they shulde lyue, ye & so well taught that they be able to teche it other full well/ & yet lyue them selfe full nought. We shall nat nede to seke longe for ensample, syth no man douteth but that Iudas Scariothe had so good a scole mayster, and was With him so longe, that if he had any wyt he was metely well taught howe he shulde lyue. And that he was nat all wytlesse, thoughe by defaute of good wyll he waxed in conclusyon gracelesse/ appereth well, in that so wyse a mayster as oure sauyour was, sent hym forthe amonge other for one of hys vsshers, to teche in his owne tyme. And yet as well taught as he was, and as well as he taught other to/ yet was hys owne lyuynge nat very good, whyle he was bothe a thefe and a traytour bothe to god and man. And yet that we shall nat nede to seke so farre as fyftene hundred yere ago/ I wene it wyll be no great difficultie to fynde folke inoughe euyn nowe in our owne tyme, that can preche and gyue good coun- sayle to theyr neyghbours, agaynste the vyces in whiche they lyue them selfe. So that thoughe to good lyuynge, good techynge be necessary/ yet may euery fole se that in good techynge, standeth nat all ys pythe of good lyuynge, as Tyndale sayeth it dothe/ sythe many men haue ben well taught, and yet lyued nought. But this wyse reason amonge many lyke, lerned Tyndale of his mayster Luther/ whiche at wormes in Almayne at his beynge there before the Emperour sayd, that yf the gospell were well taughte, there shulde nede none other lawe. And this sayd he there, & this sayeth Tyndale here/ bycause they and theyr felowes wolde fayne take away all lawes, and leaue nothynge but sermons. And than after that theyr vngracious heresyes myght be frely preched for [qiv] the gospell of god, & no lawe to let them/ when after many soules sent vnto the deuyll by theym, they shulde as they haue done in Almayne all redy, begynne sedicion and rebellyon, and fall to ryflynge, rob- bery, murdre, and manslaughter/ who so shulde than without force of punysshement onely, teche and preche vnto suche vnruly rebelles, shulde (yet wote well) haue a deuoute audyence. But Tyndale in this matter whan he hath tolde vs this tale, that the pythe of mannes lyuynge standeth all to gether in techynge/ he addeth thervnto by and by & sayeth, Tyndale. Howe be it there be swyne yhat receyue no lernynge but yo defyle it/ and there be dogges that rent all good lernynge with theyr tethe. More. If there be suche swyne and suche dogges as in dede there be, as our sauyour hym selfe wytnesseth in the gospell/ if this I say be truthe as it is, that Tyndale telleth vs nowe/ than is it false that Tyndale tolde vs afore, that is to wytte that all standeth in techynge. For those swyne & those dogges will be nought for all the good techyng. And than to kepe ao suche from doynge harme, we must nat onely teche and preche/ but vnto suche as wyll be lyke swyne, we muste yoke them for brekynge hedges, and rynge them for wrotynge, and haue bande dogges to dryue them out of ys corne with bytynge, and leade them out by the eres. And yf there be suche dogges as in dede there be, that rent all good lernynge wyth theyr teth/ then standeth not all the pyth of good lyuynge in good teachynge. For what auayleth to tech them that wyll not lerne but rent all good lernyng wyth theyr teth. An therfore to such dogges men may not onely preche, but muste wit whyppes and battes bete them well, and kepe them from terynge of good lernyng with theyr dogges tethe/ ye and from barkyng both/ and chastyce them and make them couch quayle, tyll they lye styll and herken what is sayde vnto them. And by suche meanes be bothe swyne kepte from doynge harme, & dogges fall somtyme so well to lernynge, that they can stande vp vppon theyr hynder fete, and holde theyr handes afore them pretely lyke a mayde, ye and lerne to daunce to after theyr maysters pype / suche an effectuall thynge is punysshement, where as bare techynge wyll not suffyce. And who be now more proprely suche dogges, then be [qi] these heretykes that barke agaynste the blessed sacramentes, and tere wyth theyr dogges tethe the catholyke chrysten fayth, and godly exposycyons of the olde holy doctours & sayntes? And who be more proprely suche hoggys, then these heretykes of our dayes, of such a fylthy kynde as neuer came before/ whyche in suche wyse defyle all holy vowed chastyte, that the very pure scripture of god they trede vppon wyth theyr foule dyrty fete, to drawe it from all honest chastyte, into an vnclene shamefull lybertye of frerys to wedde nonnes. And therfore vnto these hogges & these dogges ys pyth of good lyuyng standeth not all in techyng. For no good thynge wyll they lerne wythout bytynge and betynge. Yet goeth Tyndale forther and sheweth mo kyndes of folke/ to whom for all his other wordes all ye pyth of good lyuynge standeth not in techynge. Tyndale. And there be popeholy/ whyche folowynge a ryghtuousenes of theyr owne faynynge, resyste the ryghtuousenes of god in Chryste. More. These wordes lo good reder, expowne very well & very playne declare, what techynge it is that Tyndale all thys whyle so bosteth, wherin he sayeth all the pyth of good lyuynge onely standeth/ thar is as he taketh it, the techynge of hys abomynable heresyes, in whyche he techeth vs that onely fayth suffyseth, and that neyther good workes haue reward in heuen, nor that any euyll Workes shall haue any punysshement eyther in thys worlde or in purgatory, no nor in hell neyther, yf the synner be but a bare penytent & onely byleue and repent, and be well ware in any wyse that he go to no shryfte nor do no penaunce for hys synne. For all those that do, they be those of whom he rayleth here and calleth pope holy, & sayeth they make them self a ryghtuousnes of theyrowne faynynge/ and resyste the ryghtuousnes of god in Chryste, bycause they resyste Tyndals vnryghtuouse heresyes/ whyche vnder pretexte of goddes onely mercy, taketh awaye goddes rygllyuousnes/ and not onely that, but vnder the same pretexte of praysynge and settynge forth a more mercy, couertely and craftely depraueth and dyspray- seth the very trewe mercy it selfe, that god of hys godnesse ordynaryly vseth towarde vs. For Tindale maketh as though it were no mercy at all, [qiv] after a lytell penaunce in thys worlde done by the partye for many great mortall synnes/ or after a temporary payne endured in purgatory, to set the merytes of Chrystes passyon for the remanaunt, whyche wolde ellys be infynvtely tenne hundred thousande thousande tymes longer. Thys taketh Tyndale for no mercy, whyche is in dede the very mercy that our lorde ordynaryly vseth. But thys order the beste blasphemeth / and as well in thys deuelysshe wurke of hys, as in dyuerse other, calleth it expresse tyrannye. Yet goeth he fynally forther to a nother kynde of suche folke, as techynge can not for a whyle helpe, and yet after doth/ and of them thus he sayth. Tyndale. And there be that can not atyende to harken vnto the truyh for rage of lustes/ whiche when lustes abate, come and obaye well inough. And yherfore a chrysten man muste be pacyente, and suffer longe to wynne his brother to Chryst, that he whiche ayyendeyh not to daye maye here yo morowe. We se some at theyr very latter ende when colde fere of deyh hayh quenched the heye of theyr appeyytes, lerne and consente vnto the trouth/ wherunto before they coulde gyue none eare, for the wyld rages of lustes that blynded theyr wittes. More. Lo good reders here ye maye se, what constaunce is in thys man, here he sayth (and sayth trewe) that men wyll at some tyme not lerne nor harken to the trouth, though it be neuer so well taught them. And yet in a nother chapyter be fore, he sheweth that the electes as soone as euer they be taughte the trouth, assente forthwyth and wyll neuer resyste/ so he that hath a false parte to defende, neuer woteth where to holde hym. But at the leste wyse, thys that he now sayth is trewe & more to. For not onely when the rage is passed then men harken/ but also when the rage cometh agayne, then many fall nought agayne and into dedely synne/ and that of such as after waxe good agayne and fynally shalbe saued. And lyke wyse some good faythfull folke, when false shrewys come, and false heretykes/ do by false doctryne fall fro the trewe fayth agayne, though they hadde it before ryghte lyuely. And yet of suche, some turne agayne by grace from theyr dedely heresyes into the lyfe of fayth/ and some be so sore nowseled in the false heresyes, and in theyr obstynate frowardnesse take suche a deuelysshe delyght, that fynally they dye therin / as dyd Bayfeld, Baynam, and Tewkesbury. [qi] And yet in some as Tindale here telleth vs, euen in ys very latter ende when the colde fere of deth hath quenched the hete of theyr appetytes/ god worketh wyth them to- Warde the consent of the trouth, wherunto before they wolde gyue none eare/ as he dyd in dede in that good and contryte penytent & open confessour both of hys fayth and hys fawte, M. Tho. Bylney. Whiche beynge onys good, faythfull, & vertuouse, dyd after by the false delyght of Luthers & Tyndales bokes, fall in to theyr false heresyes, and helde on in them thorow the delectacyon and vayne glory that he toke in the prayse of that secrete sect and scatered congregacyon/ tyll fynally at hys deth god of hys goodnesse opened hys eyes/ and he loked vppon him selfe, and considered that all those vayne praysours he muste go from them by fyre/ and sawe that yf he dyed in those heresyes he sholde neuer mete wyth them more but in the fyre of hell where he shold neuer fro them/ then turned he to the trewe fayth agayne, and exhorted them all vnto the same. And thus good reders ye se that of hys order of eleccyon Tyndale hath in thys chapyter hytherto sayed no thynge to purpose/ & now shall ye se that as lytell he sayth to purpose in thys that after foloweth. Tyndale. And though goddes electe can not so fall that they ryse not agayne, bycause that the mercy of god euer wayteth vpon them to delyuer them from euyll/ as the care of a kynde father wayteth vppon his sonne, to warne hym and to kepe hym from occasyons, and yo call hym backe agayn yf he be gone to farre: yet they forgette yhem selues oftymes, and synke downe into traunces, and fall aslepe in lustes for a season. But as soone as they be awaked they repent and come agayne without resystaunce. More. Here maketh Tyndale as thoughe he sayde a greate thynge. And Whan his wordes are well examyned/ he both meneth very falsely, & speketh folysshe wylyly. For where he sayeth, that an electe can nat so fall, but that he shal ryse agayne/ he meaneth that of necessyte the electe muste nedes ryse agayne, thorowe the mercy of god that euer wayteth vpon him / whiche is very false. For all be it that of trouthe the electe shall aryse agayrie by meane of goddes grace and mercy/ yet myghte he if he wolde lye styll in synne, whan goddes grace and mercye calleth vpon him and byddeth hym ryse/ as many repro[qiv]bates do vpon whome goddes grace and mercye wayteth, and calleth as faste as he calleyh vpon hys electes, and is as redy to helpe them vp agayne as ye tother, if they wolde ryse, and that the malyce or slouthe of theyr owne wylles letted them nat to take holde of goddes grace, and made them nat lye styll in synne lyke swyne. Nowe that Tyndale thus meneth, appereth playne by the whole processe of his worke. Wherin as concernynge saluacyon and damp- nacyon, he laboreth to make vs wene that the wyll of man dothe nothynge wyllyngly, but were vtterly forced and ineuitably necessy- tat by the eternal eleccyon of god vnto glory and his eternall repro- bacyon vnto payne/ whiche is as moche, as to say that the wyll of man is no wyll at all, any more than as he myght saye that the wyll of a tre were to growe and brynge forthe frute & leaues, and that the wyll of an axe were to hewe downe the tre whan a man smyteth the tre therwith. And that he thus specially meneth in thys chapyter of the ordre of our eleccyon, appereth as well in generall by the hole progresse therof, as by this also that he assigneth that thynge as the onely difference betwene the electes and the reprobates/ alledgynge that the electes can neuer so fall but that they shall ryse, by the reason that mercy wayteth euer vpon them. Wherby it well appereth that Tyndale menetb, that no reprobate, that is to wytte none that finally shalbe dampned, hathe goddes mercy whyle he lyueth waytynge vpon him to call vpon him, and styrre him to ryse out of his synne. For excepte he ment so/ he shulde put electes & reprobates all in one case, if he sayde that the mercy of god which onely thinge he sayeth waytyng vpon the electe, reyseth hym out of synne, wayted vpon the reprobate to/ but if he shulde put some dyfference bytwene them by reason of ye different workyng of theyr fre wylles, whiche Tyndale wyll none of in no wyse. Now menynge falsely thus/ he vseth yet in hys speche a folysshe wylynes, as doth a cony that couereth herhed, and weneth all were well when all her loynes be open. For he sayth that the electes can not so fall but that they shalbe so saued, bycause mercy wayteth vppon them. And therin he sayth truth. For yf god had not foresene that they wolde fynally turne agayne to hym, and wyth helpe of hys grace deserue to be parte takers of the merytes of Chrystes [qi] passyon, and so to be saued/ he wolde not haue elected them to saluacyon. But he meneth that they shall necessaryly be saued, so that they shall not mow other then repent & amend, as soone as god of hys mercy calleth vpon them to repent. And thys though he thus mene, yet doth he dyssymule it/ and sayth not, that bycause mercy wayteth euer vpon them, therfore they muste nedes ryse after theyr fall/ but bycause mercy wayteth vpon them, therfore they shall ryse. But thys poynt he layeth so open in many places of his worke, that it is but a folysshe wylynes of hym to wene it well couered thus. Wherfore he were as good to speke out playnely, & tell vs whyther he mene, ys after a fall mercy wayte any more vpon any reprobate or not. If he say nay, he sayth agaynst the scryptures playne. For as in the begynnyng god of his greate mercy calleth vppon all people bothe electes and reprobates to come to hym / so doth he after bothe twayne commen and receyued, and gone a waye by synne agayne, call ordynaryly vppon them bothe of hys lyke mercy styll, as longe as they lyue in thys worlde here, and wolde yf they wolde assente therto them selfe and obaye, be as gladde to fynde them agayne as euer he was to wynne them before/ as the wordes of holy wrytte be playne in the Apocalyps, I stande at the dore and knocke. And yf Tyndale wyll auoyde thys/ he muste then saye that all the wordes of holy scrypture by whyche god called vppon the people to repentaunce, be spoken onely to the electes. And then must he tell euery man, how he may know hym selfe for electe/ leste he maye wene that they pertayne not to hym. And then shall he by the same reason saye, that all the commaundementes be wryten vnto the onely electes to/ and then the reprobates can not be reproued for the not obseruynge of them, yf they were not wryten for them. But surely if Tyndale tell vs that the mercye of god wayte vpon the onely electes, and onely calleth vpon them/ he telleth vs a vayne folysshe tale. And so he dothe in dede/ for so he meneth in dede agaynste the playne scripture and all the olde interpretours of the same, and agaynste all the olde holy doctours of Chrystes churche, and agaynste the catholye faythe of all christen nacyons this.xv. hundreth yere, from the tyme of our sauyour hym selfe & his blessyd apostelles, euen vnto lowsy Luthers dayes. [qiv] And yet natwithstandinge that he semeth to assygne the cause of the rysynge of his electes out of theyr synne, to be by the mercy of god alwaye waytyng vpon them/ yet handeleth he the mater so, that a man may nat well wytte by these wordes of his, whether he meane that whan his electe is sonken downe into his traunces, and fallen a slepe in his lustes as he calleth it for a season/ whether he meane I say that mercy calleth vpon hym in his traunce, & shaketh hym out of his slepe, or els let him slepe styll in hys lustes, and the deuyll rocke the cradle tyll the babe awake by him selfe. And surely he rather semeth to say, that god nat awaketh hym out of his luste / but letteth hym slepe in his luste vntyll his luste haue lefte him. As though goddes callyng of men from glotony, were nat to put them in mynde and call vpon them besely, and inspyre good thoughtes of temperaunces whyle they be at theyr mete / but lette them than alone as in a traunce and a slepe, tyll they be so wery of eatynge, tha the grefe and gryndyng in theyr belyes standynge a strutte wit stuffynge, call theym vp and awake them. And that is a good eas waye to/ for than be they the more easy to entreate, to faste an forbere/ but nat moche lenger than tyll they waxe an hungered agayne. And as it fareth in the traunces and slepes that folke fall in by the bely/ so fareth it lykewyse in the traunces and slepes that folke fall in by those partes that are benethe the bely. For whan the rage is thereof (as Tyndall sayeth) ouer passed, and that they haue in they traunce and theyr slepe played out all theyr luskysshe lustes/ tha they awake. And than as soon as they be awake/ they repent as Tyndale sayeth, and come agayne to chastyte without resystence. But euer more I wold that Tyndale shulde remembre, that all this tale whiche he telleth vs here, is for his purpose of electes a tale of very lytell effecte. For this tale of suche slepynge and awakynge of electes, is nothing propre to the electes/ but a thynge commune both to the electes and to the reprobates to. And these rages, and these traunces, & these slepes in synfull flesshely lustes, into whiche folke fall, and out of whiche they wake agayne and repent/ the thynge thay that Tyndale telleth vs here as a thynge farre sette and sought, and serchd out of the very botome of his depe diuinite/ yt same thyng in a maner as for thus farforthe, doctour Ouide descrbeth vs well & plainly, in his pleasaunte [ri] poetry entytled the remedy of loue. Where he declareth after Tyndals fasshyon full clerkely, how some Wanton louers after theyr rages passed and theyr lustes played out, lye then wakyng, and haue medytacyons of amendement, and of leuyng of theyr lecherouse loue euyn lyeng by theyr lemmans sydes, and thynke they wyll come there no more, and wolde wyth good wyll that they hadde not come there than neyther. In thys chapyter whyche Tyndale entytleth the order of eleccyon/ I loke alwaye that he sholde as reason is, tell vs those thynges that properly pertayne vnto the electes/ & the thynges that contrary wyse appertayne properly to the reprobates/ by whyche maner of handel- yng of ye mater, we myght clerely perceyue & vnderstande what he meneth, and what order of goddes wurkyng or of the wurkynge of mannes owne wyll, he putteth in the course & progresse of the tone sorte and the tother towarde theyr fynall ende, the tone ofeuerlastynge lyfe, the tother of eternall dampnacyon, And alway whyle I loke for this/ Tyndale, besyde that hys con- clusyons be false heresyes in the ende, telleth vs no thynge almoste by the waye (excepte onely peraduenture ys laste repentaunce before the deth) but that they be comune as well to the fynall reprobates as to the fynall electes/ as thys is also that in hys chapyter foloweth, where he wryteth in thys wyse. Tyndale. God now and than withdraweth his hand, and leueth them vnto theyr owne strength, to make them fele that there is no power yo do good but of god onely/ leste they sholde be proude of yhat whiche is none of theyrs. More. Tyndale maketh these wordes for a grounde of a great mater, concernynge the order of god vsed towarde the electes. And vpon thys fundacyon he specyally rereth hys byeldynge, of the traunces, and the slepes, and slydinges of the electes into synnes and errours/ in whyche synnes yet they synne not, and in whyche errours yet they erre not, bycause of theyr felynge fayth. From whyche though they fall yet they fal not, bycause they fele it still though they fele it not. But what is there good reder in these wordes of hys ys he speketh of the electes, that is not veryfyed bothe in the electes and in the reprobates to. Now yf he say that he speketh here specyally of the electes, bycause at somtyme god wythdraweth hys hand from them, & that from reprobates [riv] he wythdraweth his hande of helpe and grace alwaye. If he saye thus, he sayth vntrewe. For doeth not god, as he of hys goodnesse calleth them, and at theyr comynge receyueth them/ so when they fall awaye by false fayth, or faynte harte, or flesshely delectacyon, calle vppon them agayne, as he doeth vppon hys electys, wythout accepcyon of persons or parcyall fauour indyf- ferently/ tyll he eyther some tyme for theyr immesurable outrage, or comenly for theyr fynall impenytence, fynally reiecteth and refuseth them? Amonge whych fatherly cure and care for them, as well as for hys electes before theyr fynall fall/ he vseth the same wayes to wynne & saue them, that he vseth to the other. Ye and doth somtyme per- aduenture gyue more of hys gracyouse ayde & helpe in this world toward saluacyon in heuen vnto some reprobate wretche, that wyll for all that be damned/ then to some of hys electes, that wyll so wurke wyth hys grace that he fynally shall be saued. As I dowte not but some two soules haue ben saued and now syt in heuen, wyth the tone halfe of the grace that Iudas had, and caste of, and fynally fell into hell. And therfore thys that Tyndale here telleth vs of electes, that god somtyme wythdraweth hys hande and leueth them to theyr owne strength/ he maye as well tell vs of the reprobates as of the electes. Now the cause why god wythdraweth hys hande and hys helpe, is not alwaye the cause that Tyndale here alledgeth, bycause he longeth alway to make a glaunce agaynst all the meryt of mannes fre wyll/ but to auoyde the pryde of the mynde, and the farre lesse boldnes presumynge vpon the surtye of hye holy lyuynge or fayth/ whyche many men maye fall in by takynge them selfe for god almyghtys mynyons, though they gyue all the thanke to hym selfe, and ascrybe no thynge to theyr owne strength at all, nor wene they haue no fre wyll at all neyther. For the proude pharysey that dyspysed the pore publycane, though he were proude of hys dedes, yet ascrybed them not vnto hym self, nor sayd not all thys haue I done good lord of myne owne strength. But he sayd, I thanke the therof good lorde that I am suche/ and that thou haste made me better, and gyuen me the grace to lyue more holyly then thys publycane/ and sayed not, I thanke therof my selfe. And therfore as I say, god wythdraweth hys hande to shewe hys electes and [ri] reprobates bothe, that they haue rather cause to be meke and fere a fall, then to be prowde of theyr vertue, and make them selfe sure of theyr standynge, and thynke that they be so dere derlinges to god of whom all good cometh, that do them selfe what they wyll, he wyll not lette them fall. For thys I saye god doth it/ and not as Tyndale sayeth, onely to shewe hys onely electes that they can do no good but onely of hym, lest they sholde be prowde. Lo saynt Poule, though god wythdrewe not hys hande and helpe from hym, hadde yet suche a plage of temptacyon putte vpon hym, that he waxed wery therof, and very sore aferde. And wherfore was it layed in hys necke/ leste he sholde haue thought hys vertue to come of hym selfe? nay, leste he myghte thorow the greate reuelacyons that he had had, fall into pryde and presumpcyon. And therfore thys were not so very a lykely maner, that god wolde as Tyndale putteth, wythdrawe hys hande from a good elect, and therby sende hym into synne, lest he shold wene that any vertue came of hym selfe wythout god. For no good man can lyghtly fall into that thought, but rather leste (wherof he standeth in myche more parell) he myghte happe to thynke hym selfe ouer grete in goddes fauour/ & therby fall into pryde for lacke of fere mengled wyth hys hope. Nor also that good electe, from whom god so shold with drawe hys hande, and suffer hym to fall into synne for the cause that Tyndale here allegeth, leste he sholde reken hys vertue to come of hym selfe/ were not lykely after hys repentaunce and rysynge agayne, to take that kynde of frute therof, syth he were not lykely to reken that god wythdrew hys hande for that cause. For yf he sholde so reken, he were lykely to reken that he before that fall was so holy, that god Was aferde leste he wolde wax to prowde therof But the better the man was before/ the more is he after hys repentaunce lykely to fere that he was nought before and worse after/ and that hys fall into that synne came vnto hym, not by the reason that god wythdrewe hys hande from hym for any fere of any suche pryde that was lyke to ryse of hys vertue/ wherof he wyll reken that he neuer hadde suche store to take occasyon of any suche pryde therof / but rather that god wythdrewe the hande of hys grace and helpe [riv] from hym at that tyme, for some other secrete synne wherby he had before deserued that he so sholde do/ and that the secunde synne was not onely synne, but also payne for the fyrste. As one synne deserueth the doynge of a nother after the sentence of saynt poule vnto the Romaynes, that the olde phylosophers for theyr wylfull idolatry agaynst god, were gyuen by god into the synne agaynste the nature of man/ or ellys that in the commyttynge of the same synne, he wythdrewe hym selfe from goddys hand by the defawte of hys owne frowarde wyll, byfore that god wythdrew hys hande from hym. And thus were he lykely to laye the defawte in hys wyll, and not in the lacke of his power/ wherof he shall haue no cause to dowte but god had alwaye gyuen hym inough, and alway wolde gyue inough to wurke wyth hys grace in the vinearde of vertue towarde heuen, yf hym selfe dyd not fyrste wyllyngly forsake it and fall therfrom. And then puttynge the fawte of hys fall in the frowardnesse of hys owne wyll, and not in any lacke of towardly goodnes and mercy at goddes hande, and consequently not in lacke of power, whyche can neuer lacke tyll helpe of grace fayle/ and were but a false excuse of synne, syth grace neuer fayleth nor falleth fro man, tyll man fyrst fayle and fall from grace: he were I say lykely not to take that kynde of frute by occasyon of hys fall whyche Tyndale speketh of And then yf ye man were not lykely to take that kynde of frute therof, it were not lykely that god wold do it for that cause/ whyche cause the man wolde not after conceyue in hys mynde, & imagyne that god dyd it therfore. For surely as towchynge the wythdrawynge of goddes hande (wherupon Tyndale here edyfyeth vp hys processe folowynge in thys chapyter) which his hygh goodnes and vnsercheable wysedome doth dyuers tymes, for mo causes then men haue the wytte to spye: yet doth he it neuer, but man wythdraweth fyrste hys wyll. For as god preuenteth vs in gyuynge/ so preuent we hym in leuyng. For syth god seeth ys we can no good thynge do without hys grace / he wyll not byd vs do a thynge, for the not doynge wherof he wyll punysshe vs/ and then wythout our fawte wythdrawe hys grace, wythout whyche he woteth well we can no more do it, then se without lyght. Syth it were harde to fynde a woman so vnreasonable that wolde commaunde her mayde vpon payne of betynge go threde her nedle, and [ri] than pull away the candell or put it out, and bydde her vpon her peryll come of and threde it in the darke. Let Tyndale say what he wyll/ we withdrawe before god withdrawe. For as god sayeth in the scrypture, Thy fall is of thy selfe, nat of the withdrawynge of hys hande, tyll we waxe wanton or sowe dronke, & wyll nedes synke downe and fall. But god somtyme seeth causes why he setteth to lesse strengthe of hys hande, than els he wolde do. For if he wolde/ he coulde sette the hande of his grace so strongelye, that he whiche falleth shulde nat/ and so wolde do, sauyng that his wyse goodnes well seeth wherfore it were nat best. For as hym selfe sayeth in the Apocalyps, some man is neyther hote nor colde, but as it were luke warme / wening therfore syth he fyndeth hym selfe out of the colde of greate notable crymes, that he standeth therefore in state good inoughe, thoughe he be nat very feruent and hote in vertue. But god as he there sayeth, seeth that it were better for hym for a whyle that he were ones frosen for colde, for then shulde he fele the faute/ and from ys very colde bettre waxe very hote, thanne frome the luke warme. And therefore sayeth the spirite of god there vnto hym, I hadde leuer thou were colde that thou myghtest be made hote / as thoughe he wolde saye farther, than so to stande lykynge thy selfe well inoughe in a luke warme, without growyng into greatter hete. And therfore as I was about to say, in suche a persone as god feleth him faynte and lytell well willynge to go forwarde/ so god agaynewarde vseth him selfe towarde him / in holdynge llym the more slackely/ and than the tother waxeth therby the more faynte, and god foloweth hym and dothe as he dothe, and holdeth hym yet somwhat lesse, tyll with lesse on the tone syde and lesse on the tother, the man falleth into the myre of synne all to gether. And all thys dothe god for the beste, vsynge our euyll to goodnes as we vse his goodnes to euyll. For whan a wanton chylde feleth ones a fall, and hathe all to rayed his gaye cote and broken bothe hys shynnes/ than wyll he fynde hys owne faute and loke better to hys fete, and holde faster after on the mannes hande that ledde hym. And suche slacke holdynge on goddes parte is ye thinge of lykely- hed, that is called the withdrawynge of goddes [riv] hande from good men, concernynge fallynge into synne. For els tyll they begynne to withdrawe and drawe backe, or els dragge and sticke styll, or go nat so gladly forwarde/ all be it that he gyue nat vnto them so stronge an hande of his grace, as if he dyd, that slouth of theyres shulde be maystered, & they borne vp thereby in maner magry theyr tethe, which is nat his ordynary cours to do: yet tyll them selfe eyther by synfull wyll or slouthfull mynde in some wyse do deserue it/ he neuer leaueth good man withoute so moche helpe of his grace, as were suflicient for hym bothe to stande & walke with if hym selfe wolde / nor neuer doth as I suppose, by the withdrawynge of hys hande fro any electe or reprobate eyther, in ys tyme in which they be good, suffre theym without theyr owne faute fyrste begonne, to fall into suche horryble dedes for any good that shulde after come therof For syth that without his helpynge hande they can none other but fall/ to withdrawe his hande without theyr faute, were in maner nat to suffre them synne, but euen to sende them in therto. And the good nature of god, neyther wyll nor can do any maner euyll to brynge any good to passe, syth he by the scrypture cryeth out vpon all those that wolde vse that condicyon, and sayeth, wo to them that say let vs do euyll that good may come therof Thus moche haue I thoughte it good to declare you vpon Tyndals tale, of the withdrawyng of goddes hande somtyme from his electes proprely preched here to lytell purpose, syth it serueth as well reprobates as electes/ and neyther the cause very well assigned, not the sentence very well expressed. And finally put for two false ententes, one to glaunce at mannes fre wyll/ as thoughe bycause all the good that man dothe commeth of god, of whose goodnes commeth mannes creacyon and all, and therfore no good can do but by him and with hym/ therfore manne had him selfe and his owne wyll nothynge a do in hys owne good dedes, but that it were a perylous presumpcion to call any mannes good worke in any wyse hys owne / where as the aungell of god sayed vnto Centurio, Thy prayour and almesse are come vp in remembraunce before god. And our sauyour hym selfe calleth the brekynge of the glasse and bestowyng of ys oyntement vpon his holy hede, the dede of saynt Mary Mawde, leyne/ though she coulde nat of truthe haue done it without hym selfe, and that all [ri] the dede all thynge rekened from the fyrst to the laste, came onely of god hym selfe. And saynt Poule sayeth, what hast thou thatthou hast nat receyued/ and than what gloryeste thou, as thoughe thou haddest nat receyued it. He sayeth nat as thoughe it were thyne owne. For whan I haue receyued it, it is than myne and so may I call it. Another false entent wherfore Tyndale telleth vs thys tale of withdrawynge of goddes hande somtyme from his electes, is bycause he wolde haue it stande with his heresye that he gothe so faste about/ that is to wytte that the electes do not sinnc dedely in theyr dedely synnes, bycause they do it nat wyllyngly but of infirmyte for lacke of power. In pursuynge of whiche purpose he wolde make it seme, that god withdraweth his hande frora them without their faute, and tlian leaueth them no power to resyste, & so no blame in them nor no synne, thoughe he be content to call it synne, after ys maner ys the mocyon toward synne which remayneth of origynall synne is called synne. This is Tyndalles entent in this matter, by whiche he excuseth the synne of the electes by the withdrawynge of goddes hande from them/ not for any defaute of theyr owne, or any synne that they haue done, but to kepe them onely from synne thay they wolde els do at another tyme. And where as god dothe for this poynt bothe for elecyes and reprobates all after one, that is to wyt neuer withdraweth his grace from the tone nor from the tother, tyll they begynne theym selfe to withdrawe theyr wyll from hym / he lssymuleth that poynte, & goeth forth in his mater that he byeldeth vpon that foundacyon, and sayeth. Tyndale. God layed so sore a wayghte of persecucyon vppon Dauides backe, that passed hys strength to beare. So that he cryeth ofte out in hys psalmes, sayenge that he had lyued well and folowed yhe ryghte waye of god in vayne. For the more he kepte hym selfe from synne, the worse it wente with hym as he thoughte/ and the better with hys enemye Saul, the worse he was. Yet god lefye hym not there, but conforted hym and shewed hym yhynges whych before he wysyte not of/ how that the sayntes must be pacyent and abyde goddes heruest, vntyll the weakednesse of vngodly synners be full rype, yhat god may repe it in dewe season. God also suffred occasyons stronger then Dauid to fall vppon hym, and yo carye hym clene out of yhe waye. Was he not redy for a churlysshe answere to haue slayne Nabell, and all the males of hys howse, so myche as the chyld in the cradell? How be it god withhelde hym and kept [riv] hym backe from tha euyll, thorowe the wysedome of Abegall. How longe slombred he or rather how harde in slepe was he in the adultery of Bathseba, an in yhe murder of her husbonde Uriah? But at bothe yymes as soon as he was rebuked and hys faute tolde hym/ he repented immedy. ately, and turned agayne mekely. Now in all that longe tyme from the adultery of Bathsabe vntyll the prophete Nathan rebuked hym, he had not lost his fayth, nor yet his loue vnto the lawes of god no more then a man loseth his wyttes when he is a slepe. He had forgotte hym selfe onely / and had not malycyously caste of the yoke of goddes commaundennentes from of his necke. There is no man so good, but that there cometh a tyme vppon hym, when he fealeth in hym selfe no more fayth or loue vnto god, then a syke man oftymes feleth the taste of his meate whyche he eateth. More. Lo good reders, here ye se that by Tyndales doctryne, Dauid dy no dedely synne/ but was euer out of faute and nat blame worthy, neyther by impacyence drawynge nere to dispayre in persecucyon, nor by ys purpose of moch manslaughter at an angry worde, nor by auoutry conceyued at the sight of another mannes wyfe, nor by the trayterous destruccyon of his frendely seruaunt in recompence of truthe & amendes of his mys dede. All this was no dedely synne in hym, bycause he was an electe. But yet is Tyndale ashamed to confesse and say boldely, that to be electe is inoughe, and that he may do what he lyste and synne at his pleasure, and that god will gyue him leaue to do it, & cause hym to be repentaunt whan he hathe done it, and forgyue hym forthwith whan he repenteth, and so forth totiens quotiens a pena et culpa, so that he beleue it well and surely truste thereto, leste for faynte hope & feare he fall the lesse to synne. This tale is Tyndale (I saye) somwhat ashamed to tell vs euen well and playnely forthe/ and therfore he deuyseth another waye, and wolde make vs beleue that they be so preserued by the fayth, that they do neuer any dedely synne. But theyr dedes be suche, as men may well se that they be nat to be blamed for them be they neuer so bestely, but very babisshe and veniall/ and suche as god can do no lesse of very ryght and reason than remytte and forgyue/ and that for thre great causes here speci- fyed by Tyndale. Fyrste for they neuer synne but vpon greate occasyons farre aboue their strength. Secondely, for after theyr horryble dedes done, they repent vpon rebukyng without re[si]systence. And thyrdely (whiche mooste is of all) all the whyle that they be in doynge, the poore babes wote nere what they do, but be all the whyle a slepe, as he putteth here his ensample by Dauid. And therfore lette vs consydre Dauid his dedes with Tyndals wordes, & examyne in them these thre godly reasons. Fyrste he sayeth that Dauids synnes arose vpon great occasyons aboue Dauid his strength/ whiche great occasyons god suffred to fall vpon hym and cary hym awaye. For whan he wolde haue slayne Naball and all his sonnes euen to the childe in the cradell, he fell nat into that mynde without great occasyon ye wote well. For the rude felowe had as Tyndale well reherseth, gyuen hym a churlyshe answere. And what man were there so vnreasonable, ys wolde not thynke that a kynge or a great man had cause inough to kyll twenty paysans & vyllayns, for a churlysh answere of one of them? ow when he fell to aduoutry & therby to manslaughter/ had he not a great occasyon to it & importable to bere? For he saw ye woman as he loked out at his wyndow. And therfore who so euer haue ones the syght of a woman, is excusable yf he take her when he can catche her/ & no man greatly to blame, but eyther a blynde man, or he that taketh one in ye darke whom he neuer saw in ys lyghte. But we must here yet remember lest we mystake Tyndale, that these great & stronge occasyons were not so very greate & stronge of them selfe/ but they were as Tyndale sayth stronger then Dauyd, and able to cary hym awaye. Whyche he saytll, to shew vs ys they were of ys strength in comparison of ys person, not so mych by the force & strength of theyr owne nature, as by ys lyghtnes, fraylty, & feblenes of Dauid/ as a small burden is a great wayght vpon a child, & able to bere him downe/ & a lytell wynd able inough to blow away a fether. Then wolde ye wene that he accuseth Dauyd and the electes, bycause they be so lyght and so frayle to falle vpon suche occasyons as be stronge to them, by reason of theyr owne feblenesse. Nay for- soth. For here ye muste remember that to prouyde theym theyr excuse in thys poynt, was the cause for whyche as I tolde you before he layed for a fundacyon/ that god at soche tymes fyrste wythdraweth hys hande of hys helpe, & then muste they nedes be weke, feble, and frayle. And so theyr fall cometh of the occasyons/ & the occasyons by myghty to them, by reason of theyr feblenesse. [siv] And theyr feblenesse cometh of the wythdrawynge of goddes hande. And he wythdraweth it wythout any desert and defawte of them, onely to kepe them from the synne of takyng their good workes for theyr owne. And so is there in all the progresse of theyr dede, no dedely synne in them self / syth the occasyons that bryng them to it, be wythout theyr owne fawte strenger then they/ and by reason of theyr fawtelesse feblenesse, cary them clene awaye. And thys is as ye se the fyrste goodly cause, for whiche Tyndale wyll make vs wene, that the abomynable dedes of electes be no dedely synnes bycause of the greate occasyons. Agaynste whyche yf the mater were worth the argument, we wolde prece vppon hym sore wyth the synnes of the reprobates/ and bere hym in hande that some of theym haue as greate occasyons of theyr synnes somtyme, as is a churlysshe answere to the kynge of a man, or the syght of a naked woman out at a window for aduowtry. And we wolde then aske hym suche questyons forther, eyther of holdynge of goddes hande ouer them, or wythdrawynge hys hande of helpe from them, wyth other dyuerse dependauntes theruppon, whyche euery lerned man may soone fynde out hym selfe and almoste vnlerned to. Whiche When Tyndale sholde answere to/ he sholde soone make euery wyse man se, that in thys chapyter of the order of theyr eleccyon, he hath elected and chosen a very folysshe order. But for as myche as the foly therof is open and playne of it selfe/ we shall let the forther dyspycyons of thys poynt passe, as agaynst which saynt Poule playnely speketh and sayth vnto vs, God is faythfull whyche suffereth you not to be tempted aboue ys that ye maye bere, but maketh wyth the temptacyon a way out also, that ye maye well weild yt. By whyche wordes thys poynte of occasyons aboue our power is clene caryed awaye/ and it is clerely determyned, that god suffereth no suche temptacyon to come vnto vs, but suche as we maye bothe reprobates and electes be able to wythstande if we wyll, thorow the assystence of goddes gracyous hande / whiche he neuer wythdraweth but in the fawte of our owne wyll, and neuer denyeth to put it forth vnto vs yf we call therfore and wyll take holde vppon it. And therfore syth as I saye the reprofe of thys fyrst poynt is playne/ I wyll now passe it ouer and se what substaunce is in the seconde. [si] The seconde thynge is, that as soone as they be rebuked and theyr fawtes tolde them, they repente immedyately and turne agayne Tekely. For thys he sayd.ii. or.iii. tymes in two or thre chapyters/ and now he confermeth it wyth hys ensample of Dauyd, whyche dyd so as he sayth at bothe tymes. But yet is thys but barely layed forth for the order of ys electes. For of trouth thus do some reprobates to amonge repente, not onely when they be rebuked, but also before to/ and be forgyuen at theyr repentaunce and penaunce as well as be ys electes as longe as they do so repente, tyll they be dampned bycause they dye at laste impenytent. And also thys is not proued to be alwaye trewe, that euery electe epenteth at the fyrste rebuke, and mekely returneth wythout esystence, though Dauyd so dyd twyse. There is I truste many a man in heuen, that was rebuked thryes of some one fawt, and defended it full styffely before he repented, and yet amended after full well. And for ensample we nede no ferther than the blessed apostles/ and specyally saynt Thomas of Inde, whyche lefte not hys dyflydence and dystruste, neyther at the fyrste spekynge nor the seconde, nor tyll he put hys fynger in god almyghty hys syde. But Tyndale excuseth all that by beynge amased, as he doth all the electes horryble dedes, by beynge in traunces and slepes, as he doth Dauyd here. For that is ys hyrd poynt and the moste specyall excuse of all electes from all edely synne, in that they be a slepe all the whyle they do it. For hus sayth he of Dauyd, as ye haue herde. How longe slombred he, or rather how harde in slepe was he in the adultery of Bethsaba, and in the murder of her husbonde Vriah. More. Dauyd was here in a very longe slomber & a very depe dede slepe in dede, yf he dyd all those deuylysshe dedes in hys slepe. Tyndale od lykelyhed laye nere hym and herde hym all the whyle snorte ans rowte. And yf he so saye that he dyd/ then is hys tale as full proued as is any parte of all hys heresyes. And except he saye it of hys owne certayn knowlege, he shall ellys neuer make me byleue, ys Dauyd dyd spye her, and sent for her, and talke wyth her, and gete her Wyth chylde, and sent for her husbande, and deuyse the murder, & wryte ye leter, & sent the man to hys deth, and all these dedes in dyuers dayes, & all thys whyle styll aslepe. [siv] But Tyndale wyll haue hym a slepe nedes, for the defence of hys owne folysshe heresye, wherby he techeth vs ys the electe is by fayth borne of god, and therfore doth neuer synne wyllyngly, nor consent to synne, nor caste of the yoke of the lawe, nor the loue to the lawe of god. And therfore he sayth, Tyndale. Now in all that longe tyme from the adultery of Bethsabe vntyll the prophet Nathan rebuked hym, he had not loste his fayth nor his loue vnto the lawes of god, no more then a man loseth his wyttes whyle he is a slepe. More. Lo bycause he was all this whyle a slepe/ therfore in all thys whyle he loste neyther fayth nor loue to the lawe, no more then a man loseth hys wyttes when he is a slepe. Is not here a wyse tale trowe ye? excepte that Tyndale hadde eyther loste hys wyttes, or els were hym selfe a slepe whyle he wrote thys/ he coulde neuer for shame tell vs thys tale. What calleth he losynge of fayth or loue? no thyng but such departynge therof, as he neuer cometh to it agayn? If that be so/ then Tyndale setteth our sauyour Chryste to scole, and techeth hym to speke. For he sayth in the gospell, that a man loste one of hys hundred shepe, and lefie the remanaunt and soughte the loste shepe, and founde it. And that the woman had lost her money, though by ransakynge vp her howse and sekynge she founde it at laste agayne. Now Tyndale is not so madde I suppose, as to saye that yf a man lette fall hys rynge in the mayne see, though he fynde it fyue wekes after in a fishes maw, that therfore he neuer loste it bycause he fyndeth it agayne. The comon peple say amonge, that nothynge can be founden tyll it be loste/ sauynge ys of a thefe they saye in sporte, he can fynde a thyng ere it be loste/ and so they prayse hym in hys cunnyng, that he can do suche a maystry as no trew man can. Now yf a thyng may be loste in dede for a season, though it be after founden agayne/ how proueth Tyndale here, ys Dauyd in all thys longe whyle bytwene the fyrste syght of Bethsabe and the rebuke of Nathan, neuer loste neyther fayth nor loue. He proueth it vs in this wyse by ensample. A man ys lyeth a slepe leseth nat his wyttes / and therfore in likewyse Dauid lyenge in lechery, loste neyther faythe to god nor loue to his lawe. Is nat this well lykened? yes by my shethe. Lesse lyke than Poules steple to a dagger shethe, tyll he [si] proue vs thorowly that Dauid was that whyle in a very slepe in dede. For god hathe naturally prouyded slepe for mannes reste from laboure, and for his refresshynge agayne to laboure. And the with- drawynge of the vse of our wyttes is there nat forbeden by goddes ordinaunce, excepte we slepe whan we shulde nat. And so is neyther aduoutry nor suche maner of manslaughter/ but be thynges of god forbeden & of theyr nature abomynable. And in the slepe also there is onely a suspendynge of the vse of the wyttes, and no contrary wylfull doynge agaynste the wytte/ as there was a wylfull workynge of Dauid, agaynste the faythfull loue of goddes lawe in his horryble dedes. For as for his faythe, as farforthe as concerneth onely the nature of faythe, that is to wytte of belefe/ I wyll well agre with Tyndale that he lost it nat in all the whyle. And in Tyndals faythe for one poynt, in ys he iugleth faythe in to hope/ I wyll well agree also that Dauid had all that whyle inoughe therof styll, and peraduenture a lytell to moche to. But surely as for the lyuely faythe that worketh as saynt poule sayeth by loue/ that kynde of faythe had he loste for that whyle in which he wyllyngly wrought euyll/ except Tyndale say that all his lechery & his manslaughter to, was wrought by loue, bycause all that euer he dyd was done for the loue that he bare to Bethsabe. And if Tyndale tell me so/ than dryueth he me to the harde wall. For than can I go no farther in that poynte, but as farre as concerneth his faythe I muste nedes gyue it ouer. Howe be it yet as touchynge his loue vnto the lawe of god/ ver fayne wolde I here howe Tyndale can defende it, that he loste na that loue in no poynte of all that longe whyle, in whiche he wyllyngl wrought agaynste it, fyrste his foule aduoutry, and after myscheuous manslaughter to. Thys shall I (sayeth Tyndale) defende you well inoughe. For ye touched your selfe ryghte nowe, the very poynte at whiche I wolde my selfe haue you/ whan ye said that in the natural slepe the wytte is onely suspended, and the wyll therwith in lykewyse, so that a man dothe nat wittyngly nor willyngly any contrary act agaynst the wytte, as ye sayde that Dauid dyd in his dedes. But nowe say I that Dauid dyd none of these thynges wyttyngly nor wyllyngly but vpon those occasyons his wyttes were ra[siv]uisshed awaye/ and bothe his wytte and his wyll suspended as it is in the naturall slepe, so that he had forgotten hym selfe, and for the whyle neyther had wytte nor wyll. For if his wytte had shewed hym hys faute/ his wyll muste nedes haue folowed, But his wytte was all that whyle though nat loste, yet caryed away clene with the rage of the luste. And whan the wytte is awaye, the wyll is gone therwith. For it can nothynge do but as the wytte sheweth it as I haue sayd before. And than was the wytte a slepe and the wyll folowed the fumes that fell into the fantesye, and so no consentyng to synne / but as the man was in maner all a slepe, so were all his dedes in maner but a dreme. Here is Tyndals profe pyked out vnto the beste that I can perceyue of his wordes. But nowe this reason of his, neyther defendeth Dauid agaynste the losse of loue, and yet vtterly loseth hym by Tyndals doctryne the most especiall faythe. For Tyndale as ye shall here after rede, calleth the faythe of the electes a felyng faythe. Nowe if Dauid were in a slepe, all that whyle & had thereby forgotten his faythe and hym selfe to/ than though his faythe had all the whyle the lyfe, yet at the leste hit loste for the whyle the felynge. For so dothe the man ye wote well in the slepe. But lette this passe this ones as for thys tyme/ and se howe he proueth that Dauid was fallen to suche a dede slepe, that he had in all that whyle neyther wytte nor wyll/ and therfore consented nat vnto synne agaynste the lawe of god. Profe layeth he none in this worlde, but onely sayth it was so. Nowe myght he lye by possybilyte, though his tale were likely. But yet am I content if his tale be lykely, let hym be belyued. But nowe if his tale be very farre vnlykely, reason were he brought one wytnesse wyth hym at the leste. Nowe than whan Dauid firste began to spye her, lette that be chaunce and occasyon of one rysynge in his slepe / but whan he lyked her and longed for her, and stode styll & loked on her, and kyndled his hete hym selfe, and set hym selfe sore a fyre/ was he all that whyle a slepe? Whanne he thought he wolde haue her, whan he sent his messinger for her, whan he stode and talked with her, whan he brake the matter to her, whan he wanne her assent to the synne, whan he fulfylled his fowle flesshely luste, whan he sente for her [si] husbande to coloure and cloke theyr offence, wllan he compassed and contryued to kepe her for hym selfe and kyll her good husbande his owne faythefull seruaunt, whan he deuysed and wrote the tray- terous dedely lettre, and delyuered that innocent man his owne dethe in his hande, to delyuer ouer to hym that shulde sette hym where he shulde be slayne/ dyd Dauid in all this whyle amonge all these euyll thoughtes, all these vngracyous wordes, all these abomyn- able dedes, neuer fall from the loue of the lawe of god/ but was all thys whyle a slepe, and neuer consented to synne, nor dyd none of all these thinges wyllyngly? No sayeth Tyndale. I say no more but it is lykely yes. And therfore let Tyndale tell vs whereby he proueth the contrary. I proue it sayeth he by that that he was an elected persone that fynally shulde be saued/ and therfore bycause of that felynge faythe with whiche he was borne of god, he coulde nat con- sent vnto synne. Very well. Than if a reprobate had done the lyke vpon the like occasyon or greatter/ he had syniied dedely, for lacke of felynge faythe, onely bycause he was nat elected. And if he re- pented alyke vpon lesse occasyon, yet he shulde nat be forgyuen, for lacke of ys felynge faythe which was neuer gyuen hym, but euer kept from hym, onely bycause he was nat elected. If I aske Tyndale here howe he knoweth or why he beleueth, that Dauid was elected to saluacyon / what wyll he answere? He wyll nat say I am sure, bycause the church so techeth hym, leste I shulde aske hym agayne whyche churche. For than were he forced to graunte that he beleueth the techyng of this comen knowen catholyke churche of ours, sythe that his owne vnknowen churche can teche hym nothyng to be the better beleued vpon the credence of that churche, nat beynge knowen for the churche. Nowe shall he nat fynde as farre as I remembre, any playne euident scripture prouing his finall saluacion. Than if Tyndall answere that he fyndeth in scripture of his faythe and his repentaunces, and nothynge of hys fynall dampnacyon, and therfore he beleueth of these lykelyhedes that he was electe to the fynall saluacyon, and shall come to heuen at the day of dome (for Tyndales secte beleueth nat that he shall come thyther afore) I wyll nat here preace vpon hym with ys samples of suche as he hath sene here lyue well & beleue well after his owne opinyon, bothe whyle he be[siv]leued well hym selfe and syns he beleued wronge, of whose saluacyon yet he maketh nat him selfe so sure as of the saluacyon of Dauid/ but holdynge my selfe for this tyrne satisfyed that he beleue it so well vpon good likelyhedes, that he shulde nat beleue a man that wolde without good profe tell hym the contrary/ I shall no more but praye hym to be so resonable and so indifferent agayne towarde vs, as to gyue vs leaue in lykewyse to beleue vpon good lykelyhedes that Dauid consented to synne, and nat to beleue him, that without good profe wolde with his bare worde make vs wene the contrary, and boldely bere vs in hande that whyle he wrought so moche wyckednes he was all ys while a slepe. In whiche poynte, as I haue before proued in another chapyter by lyke mater, if he were so a slepe, his very fyrste fallynge into suche a slepe was hys owne wylfull neclygence/ whyle he beginnynge to be moued vnto leudenes at the fyrste syght of Bethsabe, stode styll and fedde hys deuelysshe delyte in beholdynge her, and thereby wyllyngly suffred the dethe of synne to entre into his hart by the glas wyndoWes of his eyen. Wheruppon all that euer he dyd after pursuyng therupon, all had he bene in such rage that he neyther wyste what he dyd nor where he were shulde haue bene imputed vnto hym / as he that synfully drynketh hym selfe dronke dedely synneth, and shall dye also yf he kyll a man in that dronkenesse. Nor it excuseth nat Dauid nor no man elles that Tyndale sayeth, <2Ihere is no man so good, but that there cometh a tyme vppon hym, in whyche>2 <2hefealeth in hym selfe no morefayth or loue vnto god, then a syke man oftymes>2 <2feleth the taste of his meate.>2 Whyther thys happeneth vnto the best men or nat, god wote I can nat tell/ I wote nat what affeccions they fele/ for I am none of them, nor I fere me Tyndale neyther, as wyse and experte as he maketh hym selfe of theyr felynge. Wolde god we were bothe of the beste, so the beste were neuer the worse, nor waxen as euyll as we, and we made theyr matches in that maner wyse. But this dare I surely saye, that whan so euer the best is in such case/ it excuseth nat Dauid fro dedely synne. For than is the beste very nought. And fynally for conclusyon of Dauid his dedes, where Tyndale sayeth he coulde nat synne dedely bicause he was an electe / for whiche cause god kepte hym thorowe the fe[ti]lynge fayth from consentynge to the seruyce of synne, and fro the malyciouse castynge of / of the yoke of goddes commaundementes from hys necke: it appereth very well that of hys necke was it ones, whyther hym selfe caste it of, or Bethsabe toke it of bycause he shulde not come yoked to bedde. For well we wote it hylde hym not wythin ys hedge of goddes commaundementes, but that he thruste hys hed thorow and brake a couple of them, and ranne vnyoked a good whyle. And it wyll I wene well appere also, that he caste of the yoke hym selfe/ & then wyll all the dowte stande vppon thys onely worde malycyously. Whyche worde how Tyndale taketh, that can I not tell/ but excepte he take it for no malyce, by cause it was all for loue. Ellys yf he agre that the contempte and dyspysynge of goddes lawe maye be called malyce, and a malycyouse castynge of of tlle yoke of goddes lawe bothe fro loue and drede, as I wene it is expouned in god almyghtys vocabulary: then drede I no thynge but that it wyll well appere agaynste Tyndale all the hole mater/ bothe that Dauyd agreed and consented to synne, & wylfully caste of goddes yoke & malycyousely to. This wyll well appere I say by playne & euydent scrypture. For after those horryble synnes so comytted by Dauid, hys dedely dedes so dyspleased god,as it is wryten in the xii. chapyter of the seconde boke of kynges, that he sent Nathan the prophete vnto hym whyche by the commaundement of god, after ys he had put vnto hym the parable of the rych man that toke away the pore mannes shepe, & therby made hym gyue sentence vnware agaynst hym selfe/ he sayd forther vnto Dauid as in the person of almyghty god, in this maner wyse as foloweth. Why haste thou then set my worde at nought, and done euyll in my syghte? Thou haste kylled wyth swerd Vryah Hetheus, and hys wyfe hast thou taken to thy wyfe, & hym hast thou slayne wyth the swerde of the sonnes of Ammon. And therfore the swerde shall neuer be taken awaye from thy howse, bycause thou hast despysed me, and taken to thy wyfe the wyfe of Vryah Hetheus. And therfore thus sayth our lord: Byholde, I shall reyse vp euyll agaynst the, euen out of thyne owne howse / & I shall take awaye from the thy Wyues before thy face, & gyue them vnto one ys is nyghest vnto the, & he shall lye with them in ye syght of this sonne. For thou haste comytted thys dede pryuely / but I wyll accom[tiv] plyshe this my worde in ys syght of all Israell & this sonne. Lo good reders, here se ye very clere, that where as Tyndale sayth that Dauid in all those horryble dedes dyd yet no dedely synne, bycause he sayeth he consented not to synne, nor dyde none of these dedes wyllyngly, nor cast not of the yoke of loue towarde the lawe of god/ god here sayth that Dauyd dyd in those horryble dedes dyspyce bothe his lawe and hym selfe to. And how dyd he then kepe styll his loue to the lawe of god, in the whyle in whyche he dyspysed both the lawe of god and god hym selfe also? Or how sayth Tyndale that Dauyd consented not to the synne, when god hym selfe that beste knewe hys thoughte layed hys synnes so sore to hys charge, that he appoynted an endeles plage for the punisshement therof? tyll by hys repentaunce & his humble confessyon, god as he forgaue the dedely- nesse of the synne, and translated it from mortall in to venyall, so chaunged the punysshemente from endeles in to endynge. For where as the prophete, had before hys repentaunce and con- fessyon sayed vnto hym by the byddynge of god, The plage shall abyde in thyne howse for euer world withoute ende/ forthwyth after hys repentaunce and hys confessyon made, he sayed vnto hym, Our lorde hath translated thy synne that was, from dedely to venyall/ that is to wytte the punysshement from eternall to temporall. And  therfore the prophete sayed, that yet the chylde that he bygatte vppon her in that auoutry, sholde dye as it dyde after in dede. And yet was not Dauyd out of hope wyth other penaunce (whyche he hadde leuer sustavne) to purge and redeme ys punisshement to/ and therfore fasted and prayed to saue the chylde, vntyll the tyme that it was dede in dede. And thus good chrysten reders ye maye clerely se, that all Tyndals proper processe of kynge Dauyd, concernyng the order of hys eleccyon, that he was therby preserued for euer frome all dedely synne, ys clerely comen to noughte/ and all hys wordes reproued by the very playne wordes of scrypture. And yet by the same scrypture for aduauntage, is there a nother of Tyndals heresyes destroyed/ by whyche he teacheth that after repentaunce all is forthwyth forgyuen vnto the electe, bothe synne and payne and all/ so farre forth that for the synne passed, the partye shall neuer after be punisshed nor suffer any payne, neyther in thys world, purgatory, nor any wllere ellys. The playne reprofe wher[ti]of appereth euydentely/ the dedely synne translated, and ys temporall punysshemente reserued by thys open place of scrypture. By whyche is reproued Tyndales other here- sye that we now go aboute/ in whyche he techeth vs that Dauyd dyd none of hys horryble dedes wyllyngly, nor consented to synne, nor malycyously caste of the yoke of loue towarde the lawe of god, and therfore synned not dedely. Wherin as ye se agaynste Tyndale tellynge vs thys/ very god hym selfe telleth vs the contrary/ and that Dauyd synned so dedely, that he synfully despysed bothe goddes lawe and god hym selfe therwyth. And now that Tyndale hath of kyng Dauyd tolde vs hys wyse proccsse of not synnynge, suche as ye se it proued / he procedeth forth from Dauyd, and telleth vs as wyse a tale of Chrystes blessed apostles. Of whom thus he sayth. Tyndale. And in lyke maner the apostles of Chryste at his passyon were astonyed and amased/ and in suche a storme of temptacyons, for the soden chaunge from so greaye glory into so vyle and sharnefull deth, yhat they hadde ibrgotte all yhe miracles & all the wordes which he had told them betbre, how that he shuld be betrayed and delyuered on the same maner vnto deth. Moreouer they neuer vnderstode that sayenge of his deth, bycause theyr hartes were alwaye heuy and ouer ladde with erthly thoughtes For though they sawe hym reyse vppe other/ yet who sholde reyse hym vp when he were dede yhey coulde not comprehende. Rede what thou reder canst/ and thou shalte fynde no temptacion lyke vnto that from the creacyon of the worlde, or so greate as it by the hundred parte. So that the wondrefull soden chaunge, and the terryble syghte of hys passion, and ofhys most cruell and moste vyle deth, and the losse ofwhom they so greately loued that theyr hartes wolde fayne haue dyed with hym, and the feare of theyr owne deth, and the impossybylyte that a man shulde ryse agayne of hys owne power/ so occupyed yheyr myndes and so astonyed them and amased them, that they coulde receyue no comforte, eyyher of the scrypture or of the myracles whiche they had sene Cryste do, nor of the monycyons and warnynge wherewith he had warned them be- fore, neyther of the women yhat brought them tydynges that he was rysen. The swerde of temptacyons, with feare, sorowe, mornynge, and wepynge, had so depely perced theyr hartes, and the cruell syghte had so cumbered theyr myndes/ that they coulde not byleue vntyll Chryste hym selfe came, deth put of and ouercome. Ye and when they fyrste sawe hym, they were astonyed for wonderynge and ioye to gyther, that thoughyes arose in theyr hartes, Alas is this he, or dothe some spyryte mocke vs/ he was fayne to lette them fele hym and to eate with them to strength theyr faythes. [tiv] More. Here haue ye herde good deuout chrysten people, a pece of Tyndals deuout godly collacyon, in whyche the man is not so farre fallen into deuocyon, but he is mych forther fallen from hys wytte/ wherby he neyther perceyueth ye poynt that he sholde proue, and ouer that seeth not that hys sermon sayth more agaynst hys mater then we that impugne hys purpose. For hys purpose is to proue vs that none electe can at any tyme synne dedely. And now forgetteth he that poynt, & telleth vs that the apostles neuer loste theyr fayth. Which yf it were graunted hym, yet wanne he not hys purpose. For they myghte kepe styll the fayth in theyr harte, and yet synne dedely by the denyeng therof wyth theyr mouth. For as holy saynt Poule sayth, In harte byleue we for our iustyfycacyon/ and wyth the mouth we confesse it for our saluacyon. Shewynge by those wordes, that neyther are we ryghtuouse by sayeng wyth our mouth that we do byleue, but yf we byleue in our harte/ nor shalbe saued by tlle bylyefe of our harte, but yf no fere can let vs yo coilfesse it with our mouth. Wherto consenten the wordes of our sauyour hym selfe, where he sayth, who so denye me before men, I shall deny hym to before my father, whyche is in heuen. And thus for the fyrste poynt Tyndale in hys holy sermon is so depe in deuocyon, ys he forgetteth where about he goth. Now for the seconde poynt, where I sayed no more but that they loste the suffycyent fayth, that is to saye the lyfe of theyr fayth/ he goth about as I tolde you, to proue vs that the apostles suche as were electe neuer loste theyr fayth at all, nor at any tyme fell therfro. And thys poynt handeleth he so properly, that euer he telleth vs that tlley loste it not, and euer he proueth vs that they loste it.And by the selfe same wordes by whyche he sayeth that tliey kepe it alwaye styll, by the selfe same I say alwaye styll he prouetli ys they kepte it not styll in dede, but were very farre fallen therfro. For fyrst rede me all those wordes of hys agayn/ and as gayly as they be cowched, wyth astonyed, and amased, & stormy temptacyons, terryble syghtes wyth theyr hartes perccd, and theyr myndes cumbred, with syght of his deth, and fere of theyr owne, that ere they coulde byleue hys resurreccyon, he was fayne to eate and drynke wyth them & to lette them fele hym/ is not all thys tale excuses of theyr [ti] faythe fallen from them, and no profe of the kepyng? What was that in them, but the lacke & losse of the faythe ys Tyndale telleth vs, that they thoughte it impossyble that he shulde ryse agayne, bycause they thought he coulde neuer of his owne power, and coulde nat thynke or deuyse who shulde rayse hym elles? Nowe where he sayeth that all this happed theym thorowe temptacyon/ that wyll we well agre. But yet is that no more to saye, but lyke as Dauid dyd auoutrye thorowe temptacyon, and kylled his good frende thorowe temptacyon / and as Eue ete the forbeden frute thorowe temptacyon and Adam ete hit also thorowe tempta- cyon / and Iudas bytrayed Chryste also tllorow temptacyon: so thapostels fell from theyr faythe, and loste it, and all thorowe temptacyon. Let Tyndale excuse euery synne that commeth of temptacyon / and whose synne shall he leaue vnexcused, excepte peraduenture the deuylls? But the synne of men standeth in thys, that they breke the com- maundement of god, in that they do nat as he byddeth them, stryue and resyste the temptacyon. Whyche tyll they cease to do, if they truste in god and call helpe of hys grace/ there can no ternptacyon be so great that it can ouer come them/ as wytnesseth our lorde by the mouthe of saynt Poule: God is faythefull, whiche suffreth you nat to be tempted aboue that ye may bere/ but gyueth With ye temptacyon a waye out that ye may well wyelde it. But let Tyndale say for excuse of their synne what him lyste / whyche thoughe thoccasyons and circumstaunces may minysshe or aggreue, and so may theyrs be lesse greuous than the synnes of some other/ and the synne ofsome one ofthem selfe also lesse than another of his owne felowes: yet shall Tyndale neuer make it good, but that whan he sayeth they coulde nat beleue, if he saye true, the lacke of theyr belefe was a greuous synne. For where as Tyndale wolde seme to saye well for the apostels, in that he sayeth they wold fayne haue dyed with our sauyour, sauynge for the feare of theyr owne dethe: Christe had before forbyden them payne of eternall dethe, whan he sayd vnto them, feare ye nat them that kyll the body/ whiche whanne they haue kylled the body haue nothynge that they can do more. But I shall shewe you whom you shall feare. Feare [tiv] you hym whiche whan he hathe kylled the body, hathe the power to caste the soule into the fyre of hell. And in another place he tolde them accordyng to the same who so will saue hys soule in this worlde, shall lese it / And who so shal lese hys soule in thys worlde, kepeth it styll for the euer- lastynge lyfe. And fynally to shewe theym that all these wordes moost proprely perteyned to the puttynge away of that fere of dethe, by whiche folke for feare of dethe wolde forbere and refuse to dye for hym and his faythe: he sayde the wordes whiche I before remembred, who so denye me before men, I shall denye him also before my father whiche is in heuen. And therfore Tyndale in vayne goeth about to excuse the synne of Christes apostels, which they rather will haue knowen, and the great mercy of god therwith/ and therfore they wryte it them selfe, & the rebukes therewith that our sauyour gaue them therfore/ to thende that we shulde bothe beware of fallynge in the lyke, and yet if it in oure owne defaute misfortune vs to fall, nat dispayre therfore, but repent and aryse with goddes helpe as they dyd/ and than shall he forgyue vs as he forgaue theym. And thys wolde rather Christes blessed apostels ys Tyndale shulde tell vs truthe, than vnder pretexte of theyr excuse, teche vs false heresyes/ and make vs wene that vpon temptacyon to forsake our sauyour for feare of temporall dethe, were no dedely synne. Wherof oure sauyoure hym selfe as ye se techeth vs playne the contrary/ and wyll nat admytte for vs I feare me, the excuse of Tyndale for thapostles, if we come and say, By my faythe good lorde I was a ferde and so forgate all that euer thou taughtest me. Howe be it that they synne nat in lesyng of theyr fayth, I lette no man to beleue Tyndale, when so euer he proue llym selfe more credyble than Christe. But here ye se that as I tolde you that they loste theyr faythe in dede/ Tyndale proueth vs after his maner in his fore rehersed wordes, wherein he sayeth nay. And yet is the man of so good remembraunce, and so good hede taketh where aboute he goeth, that forthwith in his nexte wordes after he sayeth very playnly more and more, that they coulde nat beleue the resurrection/ and excuseth them thus, that for all that they hated hym nat in theyr harte. Lo thus he sayeth. [ti] Tyndale. Howe be it there was none of theym that was fallen in hys harte frome Christe. More. Who can more plainly say that they were fallen from the faythe and lacked the belefe, than Tyndale sayeth here? For thoughe he sayeth that none of thera was in his harte fallen from Christ/ yet he sayeth they coulde nat beleue the sub- stancyall artycle of the fayth of Christ, that is to wytte the belefe of his resurreccion/ without the belefe wherof all the remanaunt wolde nat than serue them to saluacyon. And that they beleued nat that artycle, Tyndale here sayeth expressely. For he sayeth that thoughe they ran to the sepulchre, and wolde fayne haue beleued that he was rysen/ yet they coulde nat beleue it/ the wounde of theyr temptacyon was so greate, that they coulde nat beleue it at the prechynge of a woman, without any other myracle. Than aske I no more but thys tale of Tyndale. For if they coulde nat beleue, than dyd they nat beleue/ and so lacked they than the belefe. For as for that they came therto agayne, and that Iosephe of Arimathia, and Nychodemus, and the women came afterwarde to strength & boldenesse, and that hys two discyples towarde Emaus burned in theyr brestes to here speke of hym: all this maketh to Tyndales purpose in this poynte nat the value of a poyntes ende. For we speke of his apostels, in the tyme in whiche him selfe sayeth here they beleued nat, nor coulde beleue it. At that tyme say I, ys syth they than beleued nat, as they dyd nat if they coulde nat, they than had for that whyle the lacke of the faythe. And also to what purpose telleth Tyndale vs, that they coulde nat beleue at the bare prechynge of the woman? As thoughe they were nothynge to blame for that, bycause they were but women/ whan the apostels them selfe knewe these women for suche, as they were worthy more credence some one of them than some many men. And for to excuse the apostels in the lacke of belefe, bycause the messyngers were but women/ Tyndale dothe therin no more but lay lacke arid ouersyght in oure sauyour, that in a thynge that he wolde haue beleued, sent out suche women on his myssage. But Tyndale woteth well if he beleue the gospell, that [tiv] no more they dyd whan they sawe the myracle of hym selfe commyng in before them the dores beynge shette, and spekynge vnto them / but were so farre fro the belefe of his resurreccion at the fyrste, that they had went that he had ben some spirite, tyll he natonely preched to them, but also reasoned with them there vpon. Nor yet saynte Thomas whiche as Tyndale sayeth coulde nat beleue tyll he sawe Chryste / neyther dyd beleue the woman nor all his awne felowes, nor our sauyour him selfe vpon the syght neyther, tyll he felt him fully, and put hys fynger in his syde. And this he dyd of Stoberne standynge in his mysse belefe / in that after his belefe lackinge, he went nat about to seke the truthe, and endeuoure hym swlfe to beleue them that tolde him the trouthe/ but as it semeth by the gospell, obstinately stode in his distruste, and sayd tyll he dyd (that he thought of lykelyhede he neuer shuld) that is to wyttw tyll he telte hym and put his fynger into his woundes, he wolde neuer beleue it. And I saye plainly, who so euer beynge enfourmed of any artycle of the faythe whiche god byndeth vs to beleue, beleueth it nat/ the cause why he beleueth nat is nat bycause he can nat, but bycause he wyll nat. For if he wolde do the thynge whiche Tyndale taketh for foly, that is to wytte nat resyste but endeuour hym selfe to submytte hys reason vnto faythe, with askynge helpe of god for the forther- aunce of his imperfeccion/ he thus doynge hys parte, god wolde I say nat fayle on his parte agayne, but wolde effectually worke with hym to perfyte in hym the faythe in whyche he preuenteth hym by grace/ whyche preuencyon was whan he gaue hym the grace and occasyon to be fyrst tolde of the mater. But euer cometh Tyndale by degrees/ & euer he seeth hym selfe lykely to be dreuen fro steppe to steppe. And therfore where he sayd ys the electe can nat synne dedely/ fyrste he alledgeth for the cause therof that he synneth neuer, but vpon great occasyons. And seynge that a man may therto say what than? He goeth to another steppe, and saieth that he neuer consenteth to synne.And than seynge that steppe wyll nat be defended/ he goeth to another, and sayeth he consenteth nat to synne to serue it. And perceyuynge that he can nat stande sure there/ he steppeth downe to ys nexte, and sayeth that he casteth nat of from his necke the yoke of [vi] loue toward the law of god. And yet perceyuynge ys that steppe wyll not holde hym neyther/ he cometh at laste vnto a nother steppe, and sayth he casteth it not of malycyously/ trustynge bycause we can not loke into the mannes breste, to se whyther he bare any malyce therin, we shold neuer be able to conuycte hym of that worde, when he put onys ther to malycyously. And yet from yt steppe haue I dreuen hym/ & therin haue I begyled his hope, as ye before haue herde in the synnes of king Dauid, by the wordes of god spoken by the mouth of Nathan the prophete. Now as he played there / so playeth he by the apostles here. For fyrste he sayth they lost neuer the fayth, bycause they were amased, & then astonyed, and then aferde, & then bycause they coulde not perceyue the thynge for possyble. And yet at last he cometh so nere to the grauntynge ys they lacked it, ys by playne wordes at length he sayth the same thyng hym selfe/ affermyng ys they byleued not nor they byleued not, yet had they no lacke of the fayth/ bycause in the lacke of theyr bylyefe they hadde no malice. And that thynge he proueth thus. Tyndale. There was none of them that euer rayled on hym, and came so farre forth to say he was a deceyuer, and wrought with the deuyls crafte all this whyle, & se wherunto he is come in the ende, we defye hym false wretche that he was and his false doctrine also. And therunto muste they haue corne at the laste, when feare, sorow, and wonder- ynge had ben paste, yf they had not ben preuented and holpen in the meane season. More. Lo good chrysten reders, here hath Tyndale taught vs, ys who so byleue not ys resurreccyon of Chryst/ yet all ys whyle he rayleth not vpon hym & calleth him wrech, & defieth him, he is saue inough. For all ys whyle though he byleue not, yet lacketh he not hys bylyef And then if he be an electe/ he shalbe preuented of god, & holpen before, ere euer he fall in to suche blasphemy. But & yf he be a reprobate/ then whan he cometh onys into ys case that ys apostles were in as Tindale sayth/ he shall for lacke of suche preuencyon & helpe, fall into suche raylyng and blasphemye/ & then is he remedy- lesse he sayth. And therfore sayth he bothe here and in dyuerse places, that the seed of god preuenteth alwaye, and kepeth & pre- serueth the electes from fallynge into ys case. [viv] Here is a goodly tale be ye sure. But now wherby shall Tyndale of thys doctryne make vs sure? The gospell to begynne wyth for one pece, maketh vs sure of the contrary. For therin we fynde that the traytoure Iudas, whyche was I wene as farre from the bylyefe of the resurreccyon as euer was saynt Thomas of Inde / came neuer yet vnto suche raylynge and blas- phemynge of Chryst/ as Tyndale sayth that the apostles bycause they byleued not, had they not ben by grace preuented, must nedes haue comen vnto. For when he went about to make his bargayn, & bytray hym and sell hym/ we fynde not that he called hym false wretche, nor no suche vylanouse word. And after we fynde that when he repented and brought agayne the money, he was farre from raylynge vppon hym, and sayed I haue offended god in bytrayenge the ryghtuouse blode. And surely though he had at the sellyng rayled as mych vpon him toward hys passyon, as Tyndale in hys bokes now rayleth & iesteth vpon hym in the blessed sacrament after hys resurreccyon: yet dare I be bolde vpon hys mercy to say, that yf that olde Iudas in his repentaunce, had with the loking vppon hys own synne loked also vpon the great mercy of god/ and also that yf Tyndale now thys new Iudas wyll repent hys raylynge agaynst Chrystes blessed body the sacrament of the awlter, & aske our lord mercy therfore: both the tone sholde haue had, & the tother shall haue, remyssyon and forgyuenes of that dedely synne wyth chaunge of hell into purgatory/ into whych the tone in vayne now fayne wold, and the tother except he mende herafter shall as mych in vayne wysshe to come. Now Tyndale wyll peraduenture stycke vppon some sotle coniec- ture of hys owne and styffely bere vs in hande, that though it be not wryten in the gospell, yet dyd Iudas when he solde Chryste, speke of hym some blasphemouse wordes, & had opprobriouse language agaynste hym/ and that the blasphemy therof was the very cause why that he coulde neuer after by any repentaunce be forgyuen hys synne, and receyued agayne to grace. If Tyndale thus tell vs, and wyll wene by thys waye to wynde out/ we wyll for thys ones forgette to putte hym in mynde of hys owne rule, that we nede not byleue hym forther then he fyndeth in playne and euydent scrypture. [vi] But we wyll tell hym then, that there is as great lyklyhed and somdele more to, that saynte Poule when after the resurreccyon of Chryste, and the stonyng of saynt Stephen, persecuted and punysshed so cruelly the chrysten people/ dyd rayle and blaspheme the name of Chryste, and hys doctryne, and myracles, and all that he taughte and dyd. And yet for all thys was he receyued after to grace & forgyuenesse/ & was after elected, ye and for the foresyghte of his repentaunce, chaunge, and penaunce, was a chosen vessell before god byfore the worlde was made/ and hadde ones the ryghte bylyefe oflykelyhed, as myche as he was bounden to before the gospell preched, and then stode in state of grace / and yet was suffered thorow his owne fawte to fall therfro, by refusynge the gospell of Chryste, and after fell in hatynge and persecutynge of hys name and doctryne/ and not as it semeth wythout blasphemynge of hys name, his lyuynge, hys deth, hys doctryne, and his resurreccyon, and all that euer he dyd/ and yet by repentaunce and penaunce receyued to fayth and to forgyuenesse agayne. And therfore nedeth not Tyndale to dyspayre, but that as euyll as he is, he maye yet repente and be forgyuen yf he wyll. But by thys one ensample of saynt Poule, are in ys meane whyle vtterly destroyed, not onely Tyndals wordes laste aboue rehersed/ but ouer ys all this his hole chapyter of the order of our eleccyon/ wherof the hole purpose is in effecte, that god kepeth them euer from all dedely synne. And thus good reders ye se how well he defendeth the apostles fayth, whyche he sayth they neuer lost at no tyme/ and yet con- fesseth hym selfe that at one tyme they neyther byleued nor coude byleue. And yet whyle they byleued not, they lost not theyr bylyefe bycause they rayled not/ and by cause that after they came agayne to bylyefe, therfore they lacked it not at any tyme before they came to yt agayn. Is not here good reders a wyse and well tolde tale? It is inough for me, that how so euer Tyndale excuse theyr mystruste and vnbylyefe/ I se them selfe wryte, that our sauyour him selfe accused it, and rebuked them sore of theyr incredulyte and harde harte, for that they had not byleued them that they hadde sene hym ryse. And now that Tyndale hath so wysely defended them all/ he cometh partycalarly to saynt Peter and sayth. [viv] Tyndale. Ye and peter as soone as he had denyed Chryste/ came yo hym selfe immedyately, and went out and wepte bytterly for sorowe. And thus we se that Peters fayth fayled not, though it were oppressed for a tyme. More. Tyndale euer laboreth to lede vs a myle fro the mater. For well ye wote the chyrche techeth not, nor no man was there euer any where so madde to saye, that the chosen and electes do dye in dedely synne/ but that they somtyme do dedely synnes / that is to wytte, such synnes as yf they dyed in them wythout repentaunce of them, they sholde be dampned for them. Agaynste thys doctryne of the catholyke chyrch/ taketh Tyndale in hande to proue vs, as well by dyuers other tytles of thys boke, and by hys exposycyon vppon the fyrste pystle of saynt Iohan, as by all the processe of thys hys present chapyter of the order of theyr eleccyon/ that the electes neuer do no dedely synnes. That is ye wote well as mych to say, as that they do no suche synnes/ whych done in such maner as they do them, be of theyr nature dedely/ that is to saye suche as yf the person that doth them dye before he repent them, he sholde be dampned for them. Now good chrysten reders the poynte consydered that is in debate bytwene vs/ ye perceyue very well that eyther muste Tyndale take and vnderstande dedely synne, for some other thynge and in some other maner then all other men do, and otherwyse then it is taken and vnderstanden by ys catholyke chyrch of Chryst agaynste which he dysputeth/ whych maner of hys dysputacyon yf he otherwyse toke it then hys aduersaryes do, were on hys parte to shamefull and folysshe, as euery man well seeth ys any lernyng hath / for then dysputed he but vppon the worde and not vppon the mater, whyche. he wyll not I wene for very shame be so madde to do: or ellys yf he take I saye thys worde dedely synne as in dede he must nedes do, than do you good reders I dowte not very well and clerely se, that Tyndals tale of saynte Peter hys repentaunce and sorowe after hys denyenge of Chryste, nothynge proueth Tyndales purpose / whyche is and muste be that saynt Peter before hys repentaunce, synned not dedely at the tyme when he forswore Chryste. For Tyndale yf he wyll proue that he dyd therin no de[vi]dely synne at the tyme/ it is nat inoughe for hym to tell vs that he repented after, and was by repentaunce restored to the state of saluacyon. But he muste proue vs that his forswerynge of our sauiour, yet shulde nat haue letted hym from saluacyon, all thoughe he had forthwith vpon that dede deceased without repentaunce, or any remembraunce after of that synne. This shulde he proue vs ye wote well/ & this ye se well he dis- sembleth. And to proue that saynte Peter synned nat dedely before/ he telleth vs that he repented after. Whyche is the very thynge wherby it is declared in holy scrypture, that his synne was greuous. For what was the thinge he so repented/ but the synne of his denyenge? And therfore ys more sorowfully that he repented it, the more bytterly that he bewepte and bewayled it, the more payne that he toke for it/ the more hym selfe sheweth vs the sore offence and heynous dedelynes therof And nowe commeth Tyndale on the tother syde/ and by the selfe same sorowe, wolde make men wene it was no dedely synne/ by whyche it specially dothe appere the contrarye. And than thus handelynge the matter, he is nat ashamed to tell vs in conclusyon, that we nowe se by this wyse reason, that saynt Peter his faythe fayled nat. Whereof he hathe as ye se proued vs nothynge/ but hathe hym selfe tolde vs by playne expresse wordes the con- trarye, whan he tolde vs that thapostles coulde nat for all ys womens wordes, beleue that Christ was rysen / nor well in a good while after, at the syght of our sauyour hym selfe. Howe be it all thys lie sayeth was no faylynge of Peters faythe, but an oppressynge for the whyle/ as thoughe I or any man elles had any tyme sayde that Peters fayth feyled for euer. I say that it fayled for the whyle, not for euer. And yet sayd I no Ferther in my dialoge therof but that his liuely faythe fayled for ys whyle, bycause it wrought nat by loue. But if his belefe stode styll/ it was a bare belefe, barayne of the frute of charyte/ with whiche it wroughte nat in the harte, whan it brought nat forthe the confessyon of Christe by the mouthe. But mary Tindale hath sayd yet more/ and hath taken away from hym boldely bothe quicke fayth and dede faith [viv] and all as for the whyle. In whyche poynt whan Tyndale hath all done / he can neuer whyle he lyueth auoyde it, but that iri sayenge that there was a tyme in whyche the apostels coulde nat byleue that Christe was arysen agayne, he is agreed with vs as for the matter. For in those wordes he confesseth, that in that tyme theyr faythe was fallen from them. But he stryueth styll with vs vpon the worde, & wyll in no wyse haue that fall called faylynge, but amasyng and astonyenge vpon great occa- syons, & with the great burden oppressynge. Well than sythe we be metely well agreed together, Tyndale and I in the matter/ we wyll for thys ones no lenger debate about a worde, and styll dyspute all daye, whether fallynge may be called fayling. But I am content to gyue it ouer, and lette Tyndale haue hys wyll, & abyde thereby styll/ that thoughe saynt Peter dyd fall and his faythe to, yet shall nat Tyndale be bounden to call that fallyng faylynge/ but amasynge yf he lyste, or astonyenge vpon great occasyons and by sore burden opprrssynge. And in lyke wyse am I content, that yf vpon great occasyon of a longe wery way, with a depe myre and a great blocke in the botome, Tyndals horse happen vnder hym fyrste to snappre and stumble, and after that faynt and fall downe in the myre and tumble, and his mayster & he there lye to gether and iumble, tyll some good felowe helpe them vppe and brynge them to an inne, where they tary to- gether tyll the horse be with mete and reste better growen in hart: let Tyndall for me whan he rydeth agayne, call his fall no faylynge nor no fallynge neyther. But yet shall he neuer let other men to call it as it is. Nowe Tyndale yet after hys fowle falle, dissymulyng hys ouer- throwe as thoughe no man sawe it/ ryally tryumpheth and bosteth in this matter, that he hathe in hys chapyter of the ordre of eleccion, so wel and wysely quytte him selfe so lyke a pretye man. For ioye and glorye whereof, he fynyssheth hys chapyter with a pleasaunte proper taunt, wherin he taunteth me. Tyndale. Therfore we nede to seke no gloses for the texte, that Chryst sayde to peter howe that hys faythe shulde nat fayle. Yes sayeth mayster More, it fayled in hym selfe, but was reserued in our lady. But lette vs se the text and theyr glose together. Chryst sayeth Luke the.xxii. Symon Symon, [vi] Sathan seketh you to syfte you as men syfte whete. But I haue prayed for the yhat thy faythe shall nat fayle. Wherfore whan thou arte come vnto thy selfe agayne, strengthe thy bretherne. Nowe put thys wyse glose therto and se howe they agre to gether: Symon, Sathan seketh to syfte you as whete/ but I haue prayed for the that my moyhers faythe shall nat fayle. Wherfore whan thou arte come to thy selfe agayne, accordynge as my prayour hathe obtayned for the that my mothers faythe shall not fayle, strength thy bretherne. Howe say ye is nat thys a proper texte and well framed to geyher? do ye nat thynke yhat there is as moche wytte in the bede of madde Colyns, as in the braynes of suche expositours? More. Tyndall here good reder felynge his matter very faynt and feble, and that by reason, scrypture, or other good authoryte, he neyther can impugne his aduersary nor defende him selfe/ wolde very fayne walke away thus without any pece of his purpose prouyd, and make men wene all were wonne with his mery scoffe. Howe be it if Tyndale had here rehersed you my very wordes of my Dyaloge, as I am in suche cases wonte to reherse his/ it wolde (and that he sawe well) haue made his quycke mery scoffe waxe very dulle and more thanne halfe dede / as ye shall well perceyue I truste, whan I come to that place in the replyenge to hys seuerall answeres made vnto the chapyters of my sayde worke. Whervnto I shall reserue the substaunce of myne answere to thys wyse cauella- cyon of hys, agaynste myne exposicyon and bettre mens to than myne, of those wordes of our sauiour spoken vnto saynte Peter, I haue prayed for the that thy faythe shall nat fayle. But where as he can in no wyse beare the comen opynyon of good Chrysten people, that the faythe abode at any tyme onely in our lady/ and therfore mocketh and maketh a gaye game, that saynt Peters faythe shulde be preserued in our lady, and that her fayth shulde be his faythe: I wene it wyll be no very great sotell thynge to perceyue, that the faythe whyche saynt Peter confessed, may bothe be his owne in that he confessed it, and yet our ladyes to in ys she beleued it/ and the thynge also beleued, is all one bothe in hym and in her/ sauynge that it is hers in that she beleueth it, and hys in that he byleueth it. And yet if he loste ye belefe therof, it may be called styll his/ vnderstandynge by that spekynge, that he fyrste confessed it. And therfore in [viv] good faythe I can nat well se, wherfore we may nat saye saynt Peters faythe was in our lady, as well as we maye say wyclyffes heresyes are in Tyndall. And therfore, where for the saltynge and seasonynge of his vnsauery scoffe, he chaungeth and mysse reherseth my wordes, and the very wordes of Chrystes gospell to/ and hathe a pleasure to playe betwene our lady and saynte Peter, and to tosse the faythe lyke a tenys ball frome the tone to the tother, with fonde wordes of hys owne folisshe framynge, nothynge nere to the matter whan the place in my dyaloge shalbe as it shall ones be by goddes grace, surely sene and examyned: I truste to make you than se, that all his propre sportynge wherin he playeth his pageaunte betwene saynt Peter and our lady, may for any wyt hit hathe, serue hym for a pastyme, if he satte saddely by frantycke Colyns and pyked rysshes in Betheleem. And happy were Tyndale, yf he were as well recouered of his fransyes, as I truste in god Colyns is at this day of hys. But yet reseruynge as I say ys farther answere to myne other place, to which this mater moche more appertayneth: yet syth Tyndale sayeth here hym selfe that the cause why no suche glose nedeth to those wordes of oure sauyour, is bycause that saynt Peters faythe neuer fayled in his owne persone/ he confesseth thereby that if it euer at any tyme fayled in his person, than at the leste wyse some glose there nedeth. And than dare I be bolde to say, that if there any nede/ the glose than that he mocketh let him reherse it right, is suche as he wyll nat thys fyue yere fynde a better. But leauynge that glose as I say, tyll I come to my dyaloge: yet to se in the meane whyle whether any glose neded or none, syth Tyndale agreeth that there neded if ys faythe at any tyme fayled in saynt Peter/ I shall nat lette for his pleasure ones agayne to serche, whether the faythe at any tyme fayled in saynt Peter or no. And to thentent that we may deale well and playnly to gether/ let hym & me fyrste agre to gether, what the thinge is whervpon we dispute. For he vseth often whan he is conuycted, to say that he toke thys worde or that worde otherwyse than we take hym therein. Let vs therfore fyrste, bycause we speke of faythe, here hym declare what hym selfe calleth faythe. To thys after that he sawe hym selfe shamefully con[xi]futed, concernynge hys heresye of fayth alone suffycyent for saluacyon/ he sayth that he calleth not a dede fayth any fayth/ but he meaneth all waye by fayth, a very chrysten fayth that hath the loue therwyth, by reason wherof it can not but worke well. Now shall ye se how courteysely that I shall handle Tyndale. For all be it ye se well that I myghte by many meanes and many playne authorytees as well of saynte Iamys as saynte Poule, and the very gospell to, con- uycte hym in that poynte/ as I haue often done all redy: yet shall I for hys pleasure lette all that passe for thys tyme, and take fayth as he sayth he taketh it hym selfe. But then aske I Tyndale thys tyme, whyther that in the tyme in whyche Peter forsoke and forswore Chryst, he dyd byleue wyth suche a bylyefe, that then wroughte well wyth loue. If he saye ye/ then syth the worke that he then wroughte was the forsakynge and forswerynge of Chryste, it muste nedes folowe that he sayth, that the forsakynge and forswerynge of Chryste was a good worke. And then wyll it theruppon folow, that syth saynte Peter wepte sorowfully therfore, he was vere sory and sore repented hym that he hadde well wroughte wyth loue, and done a good worke. So that I se no remedy, but that Tyndale muste nedes, be he neuer so loth, confesse and graunth vs, that saynt Peter in that tyme dyd not byleue wyth loue ys wrought well. Now thynketh me than that bytwene Tyndale and me there lacketh now but one thynge/ and that is what we call faylynge. For the better perceyuynge wherof I wyll aske Tyndale thys. If saynt Peter had holde on styll in that forsakyng and that periury styll all hys lyfe, & so fynally dyed therin, and had yet for all that all the whyle byleued in hys herte all the artycles of ys trew fayth, & the contrary of all ys he sayd, & not onely rayled no thyng all ys whyle agaynst Chryst, but also loued hym to, sauyng not so well but ys he wold rather forswere ys euer he sawe hym, then to suffer payne & sorow for hym: I aske I say of Tyndale, yf saynt Peter had contynued his lyfe & dyed in this state, had not then at no tyme in his lyfe his ,o fayth ys Tindale calleth fayth ys is to say his bylefe with well workyng loue fayled hym? Yf he say no/ then wyll it folow vpon Tindals word, ys there may be many [xiv] faythfull folke wyth a well workynge loue, eternally dampned in hell/ excepte it be false that our sauyour sayth, He that denyeth me before the worlde, I wyll denye hym before the angels of god/ and he that wyll saue hys lyfe, in thys worlde shall lese it. The moste parte I suppose that of the chrysten people shall be dampned / the cause of theyr dampnacyon shall be, that where as they byleue ryght and loue god also, so farre forth as he wyll let them liue as they lyst and make mery, and bynde theym to nothynge that they haue no lust to do/ loue hym not yet so suffycyentely, as for the loue that they bere hym, they wyll rather forbere the pleasours of theyr lyfe/ and also rather dye then dedely to dysplease hym, by the doynge of any suche thynge as he wyll rather that they shall dye then do it. Now se I therfore no remedy, but that Tyndale muste nedes agre, that yf saynt Peter had in such state lyued and dyed/ hys fayth well workynge by loue had fayled hym. Then syth it hadde then in sometyme at the leste wyse fayled hym/ lette vs deuyde that tyme of that state of hys from hys fyrste denyenge and forswerynge, vnto the very minute of hys dyenge, supposynge to contynue styll and dye to in the same state, into fyue egall partes yf it please hym/ and then haue we fyue tymes all of one fasshyon/ to whyche fyue tymes Tyndale yf it please hym maye gyue names to, and call them A, B, C, D, E. Now saye I than, syth Tyndale muste nedes agre ys in some of these fyue tymes Peters fayth fayled/ I aske in whyche of them? wherto syth they be all fyue of one fashyon concernynge hys fayth, he muste nedes graunte that in all fyue it fayled hym. Let vs now then somwhat chaunge our case, from that that myghte haue ben in to that that was in dede. And after that Peters fayth had fayled in the thre fyrste tymes, that is to saye those that are named A B C partes of the hole tyme, wherof A B C D E were all the partes/ lette vs put, that in the fourth parte whyche we called D, Peter repented by helpe of goddes grace, thorow ys meane of Chrystes foresayde prayoure/ and that hys louynge bylyefe so came to hym agayne in that tyme whych we called D/ and that he wolde euer after rather suffer tenne tymes to dye, then onys to forsake god agayne. [xi] Now aske I Tyndale whether ys not faylynge of his fayth now in the latter partes of hys tyme, ys is to wyt in D & E/ doth now make it trewe that hys fayth fayleth hym not before, whyle it fayled hym in dede in the thre formar tymes A B C the thre partes of hys hole tymeABCDE. Now what Tyndale must nedes answere vnto thys, he can tell well inough I warraunt, when he loketh in hys carde vpon those letters in hys crosse rowe. For there he muste nedes se, that though hys fayth fayleth neuer after whyle it fayled not/ yet before whyle it fayled, it fayled perde. Wherof the prefe is so playne vppon hys crosse row that he muste nedes se it. Now yf Tyndale wolde wynk at these letters lyke a wanton ladde that no man coulde make hym loke vp: yet shall I shew you that he hath redde them all redy, & spyed full well that Peter synned dedely/ & lyke a shrewed wyly lad hath scraped it out of hys boke. For ye wote well that in those wordes of our sauyoure vnto saynt Peter, he sayth vnto hym. And thou after that thou shalt be conuerted, conferme thou and make stronge thy bretherne. As though he myght say, I haue prayed for the that thy fayth shall not fynally fayle. But though it fayle for a tyme by forsakynge of me, as I tell the truely thou shalt thryes do ere the cocke crow/ yet shall it come in to the agayne, by the meane of my prayour. And therfore when thou shalt be conuerted agayn, that is to wytte after that thy lyuely fayth fallen and faylynge for the tyme, and thou therby turned fro me to my enemy thorow forsakyng & forswerynge me, for dedely synfull drede of bodyly deth/ after this when thou shalt I say by myne helpe and meane of my prayour, wyth applycnge of thyne owne wyll therewyth, haue gotten grace and repented, and attayned thy fayth agayne, and be thy selfe conuerted and turned from myne enemye vnto me agayne/ then do thou conferme and strength thy bretherne. Now se for goddes sake where Tyndale hath scraped out and altered one worde/ in whyche one worde standeth the makynge and marrynge of all the hole mater. For where as our sauyour sayed, when thou arte onys conuerted, then strength thou thy bretherne/ Tyndale putteth out cunuerted, and maketh our sauyour say, when thou art come to thy self agayn, then strength thou thy brethern. [xiv] And where as he in hys translacyon hadde put in thys worde conuerted/ yet bycause he sayed here before in thys chapyter, that the apostles were not by faylynge of theyr fayth, nor by any dedely synne turned in any wyse at any tyme from god/ but were onely amased and astonyed and paste all remembraunce: therfore he now hath put out here thys worde conuerted, whyche sygnyfyeth a turnynge to god, and therin doth euer imply a turnynge awaye fro god before/ & hath putte in the stede therof these wordes, comen agayn to thy selfe/ to make it agre wyth his other wordes, amased, astonyed, and forgettynge of them selfe, whyche hym selfe sayed of them before. Now thys ye se good reders very well, that though we graunte vnto Tyndale that a man may be turned to good, & turned to be bad, and turned to vertue, & turned to vice, turned to god, and turned to the deuyl to / yet where so euer in the scrypture that worde turned standeth so alone, it is euer taken for turnynge vnto god. And specyally the word conuerted, whyche is the worde ys he hath chaunged/ wherso euer in scrypture it so standeth a lone, is neuer taken for turnynge of a man vnto hym selfe but vnto god. For in turnynge to hym selfe, he maye turne from god vnto ys deuyll/ as Lucyfer by turnynge to hym selfe, turned to the deuyll. And now ye se that Tyndale to make the gospell seme to agre wyth hys heresye, chaungeth in his exposycyon the very chyefe effectuall worde, wherupon the pyth of all the mater hangeth. I wyll not therfore aske ye now ye question that Tyndale doth, whyther ye thynke not as myche wytte in the hed of madde Colyns as in the braynes of suche an exposytour. But out of questyon, I wene all wyse men thynke that the same deuyll or his mate that made Colyns madde/ hath sucked out the brayne of thys exposytoure, & blowen hys empty scalpe full of bysy frantyke heresyes. For elles wolde he neuer for shame speke of that folyshe heresye, that none electe at any tyme dothe dedely synne/ whyche thynge he seeth so playnely reproued by the scrypture/ and excepte a very few heretykes, ellys, by the agrement I wene of all the hole people of the worlde both chrysten and hethen to, as many as byleue the soule to be immortall. And yet is it a better sporte to se, howe in the very point in whyche he weneth hym selfe to deale the mooste wylyly, [xi] therein vttereth he hys foly moste folysshely. For where as all hys purpose of thys chapyter of the ordre of our eleccyon, is onely to proue that none electe at any tyme synneth dedely: euen in the very laste ende there of, where he weneth leste, where he weneth him selfe to sytte surest in the chayre of his gloryous tryumphe, and mooste merely mocketh and scoffeth at hys aduer- sary/ euen there in his false exposicyon of this text of scrypture, And thou beynge ones conuerted confirme and strength thy bretherne/ by hys vnwyse wyly chaunge of this worde conuerted in to, comen to hym selfe/ he is fallen from hym selfe and perceyued nat that that chaunge hath made euery man wel perceyue, that hym selfe whan he so chaunged that worde perceyued very well, that the worde conuerted, that is to god turned agayne, proued clerely that saynte Peter was ones from god auerted, and synfully turned away. And therfore hathe he by that wylye chaunge, euen in the very laste ende of hys chapyter, with hys owne wytnes agaynst his owne pur- pose, all his whole matter peruerted, & quyte ouer turned and ouer throwen hys tryumphant charyotte/ and with the very wordes of his mery mocke, layed all his matter in the myre. The recapitilacyon of all Tyndalles processe concernynge the churche, from the begynnynge hytherto. FOR nowe shall you good reders vnderstande, that as concernynge hys declaracyon what is the churche, here hys whole processe endeth. And wyllynge that we shulde nowe wene, that he had well declared and proued vs whyche is the very churche: he nowe begynneth after this chapiter another newe mater/ that is to wytte to proue that tlie comen knowen catholyke churche, is nat the churche. And therfore sythe here is an ende of his owne part/ it is necessary that we brefely gather to gether and consyder, what thynge he hath proued vs therein, or at the leste (for proued hathe he nothynge) what thynge he hathe tolde vs therein from the begynnynge hytherto. [xiv] Remembre fyrste good reders, that the occasyon of hys boke, is for answere of my dyaloge/ wherein I speke of the churche, by whiche we be and muste be taught and enformed. And I shewe there that it is the comen nowen catholyke churche of all christen people, neyther gone out nor put out/ and that the doctryne of this churche is sure, & can nat erre in any thynge necessary to saluacyoil. Whyche thynge I there suflicyently do proue. Nowe commeth Tyndall, to teche vs that the churche is another churche whiche he wyll shewe you, and nat the churche that I tolde you. And whether the churche that he sheweth you can erre or nat, he wyll tell you. And therfore he maketh the tytle of thys boke, what is the churche, and whether it may erre or nat/ wherein harken well nowe what he hathe hytherto taught you. Fyrste he tolde vs in the begynnynge, that thys worde churche hathe dyuers significacyons/ amonge whyche at laste he bethought him vpon twayne. One a generall significacyon, by whiche it is taken for all that embrace the name of Chryste, thoughe theyr faythes be noughte, or thoughe they haue no faythe at all. A nother, by whiche it specially signifyeth onely the electes/ in whose hartes god hathe wrytten hys lawe with his holy spiryte, and gyuen them a felynge faythe of the mercy that is in Christe Iesu our lorde. All hys other signifycacyons I lette passe, as thynges nat properly pertaynynge to this present questyon of the catholyke churche / excepte onely that whyche he hathe also diffined false, that is to wytte the pertyculer churches of euery chrysten countrey/ whiche be nat as Tyndall there taketh them, all the people in the towne or the countrey chrysten or hethen or open professed heretykes, but onely suche as are the partes of the catholyke churche. But in all his declaracyons of all the signifycacyons/ he hathe as ye haue sene in my fyrste parte of thys worke, neyther rehersed them all, nor taken ryght almost any one of these that he hathe rehersed. For lettynge as I say the remenaunte passe as nowe nat pertinent proprely to this matter, & reproued in myne fyrste parte of this worke: of these two laste significacions hathe he done hys parte in neyther nother/ but hathe as I there shewed, lyfte out the chefe significacyons of all, [xi] and whervpon all the matter moste especially dependeth / that is to wytte the catholyke church of Christ of all trewe christen people. For as touchynge the fyrste of hys two laste, if he wyll say that he ment that for the catholyke churche, than I say that he defyned it false. For the generall catholyke churche is nat the nombre of all ys embrace the name of Christ, whether they haue faythe true or false, any faythe or none. For heretykes suche as Luther is, and zwinglius, and wyclyffe, and hym selfe, that fyrste wylfully leaue and forsake the catholyke church and the catholyke faythe therof, and be therfore after precyded and cut of there fro, and cast out therof/ neyther be nor neuer haue bene accompted, eyther in the churche or of the churche/ thoughe they styll call them selfe christen men, and embrace hys name, castynge of the truthe of hys faythe and fyghtynge agaynste good workes by sectes dissoluynge the vnyte, and beynge separate from the socyetie of the catholyke churche. Than as touchynge the seconde signifycacyon of the onely electes, whiche is the churche wherof he iabereth in all this worke/ and wolde haue it onely taken for the churche of Cliriste milytaunte here in erthe: let vs consydre ordrely from the begynnynge to the ende, what he telleth vs therof, and to what wyse ende at laste he bryngeth all hys purpose. After his defence of his translacyon very fondely defended, to proue vs that the churche is onely the nombre of electes/ in whose hartes god hathe wrytten his lawe, & gyuen them a felynge faythe of the mercy that is in Christ Iesu our lorde: he fyrste moueth a questyon of hys owne deuysynge, whether the worde were before the churche or the churche before the worde/ as though that ques- tyon had in suche wyse benne put by vs, and that we had affyrmed the churche to be before the worde. There with scoffes and mockes he concludeth agaynst vs, that the worde was before the churche / whereof neuer no man sayd the contrary. But that the wrytten worde was before the churche, whiche was the thynge that him selfe had sayd and mente, and whiche euer was and is his princypall grounde and foundacyon, wherof we had sayd and yet say the contrary therof/ in all tllat chapyter neyther any thyng proueth he, [xiv] nor any thynge so moche as speketh. And so that chapyter nothynge at all to purpose. More ouer, sythe he bryngeth forthe that chapyter, for the profe that the onely electes be the churche, for there about goeth all his matter / and well ye wote the worde of god bothe wrytten and vnwrytten, may be and is beleued bothc of the electes and of tlle nat elected: therfore is also that chapyter nothynge at all to purpose. Fynally syth he speketh of the lawe wrytten by the spyryte of god in the harte/ nowe sythe that lawe so wrytten there, is rather ys worde of god vnwrytten, than his worde wrytten in the bokes of the scrypture that we haue/ of whiche wordes onely, Tyndale maketh all his matter, and abhorreth euery worde that god wolde eyther speke or wryte besyde the scrypture that we haue all redy: this chapyter of Tyndals nat onely nothynge maketh for his purpose, but also rather semeth greatly to make agaynste it. Than goeth he forthe with his other chapyter, wherein he laboreth to proue that the apostels lefte nothynge vnwrytten that were neces- sary to saluacyon/ meanynge that we be bounden to beleue nothyng, but onely that that they haue wrytten/ & that (as Tyndals mayster Martyn Luther sayeth) euidently and plainly wrytten. Wherin who so consyder what I haue answered hym/ shall I truste well perceyue that it had bene better for hym to haue lefte that matter vntouched. For bothe is his purpose on hys parte vnproued, and the contrary to hym proued/ besyde that it is in many places proued, that the sacramentes whiche he reproueth be wrytten in the scrypture in dede. Howe be it he correcteth and amendeth therfore his doctryne of that chapiter, in another chapiter after. For where as in the former chapiter, he techeth that we be bounden to beleue nothinge of necessyte, but onely that that is wrytten in the scrypture: yet leste we shulde be thereby concernyng our belefe, ouer straytely re- strayned of our euangelycall lybertie / he bethynketh hym selfe better/ and in hys other chapyter after he techeth vs that we be nat of necessytie bounden to beleue all that neyther / but so that we beleue the promyses, we may be saued well inoughe he sayeth, beleuynge nat other thynges wrytten euen in the very gospell it selfe. [yi] This is hys doctryne in his chapyter/ where he techeth vs that the churche may erre and that yet it can nat erre/ sauynge that sodeynly vnware he confesseth euen there the contrary. Thanne commeth he forthe in hys chapyter with thys questyon, whether the churche can erre or nat. And there he fyrste sayeth, that thys comen knowen catholyke churche bothe may erre and dothe erre/ and proueth it by hys bare worde. And than he sheweth what hym selfe calleth the electe church/ and sayeth that it is the whole multytude of all repentynge synners that beleue in Chryste, and put all theyr truste and confydence in the mercy of god/ felyng in theyr hartes that god for Christes sake loueth them, and wyll be or rather is mercyfull vnto theym, and forgyueth theyr synnes of whyche they repente, and all the mocyons vnto synne, of whiche they feare that they shalbe drawen into synne agayne/ and this they beleue and fele withoute any respecte of their owne deseruynge and onely for the respecte of goddes trouthe and promyse. Than goeth he forthe, and bosteth hyghly thys maner of felynge faythe that is heresyes in stede of faythe, as I haue in myne answere proued/ and therein he spendeth vp that chapyter. But yet thoughe he thus descrybe the electe churche: yet dothe he nat proue that this is the churche whyche we muste here and obeye. For god hathe commaunded vs to complayne to the churche, and here the churche, and obey the churche. And therfore though we agreed euery thyng that he sayeth in his chapyter/ he had yet sythe his electes are vnknowen, proued thereby no pece of hys pryncypall purpose, that is to wytte whiche is the churche. Also where hys tytle of that chapyter is, whyther the chyrche maye erre: Tyndale sayenge that the catholyke chyrche maye erre/ whyther the electe chyrche whyche hym selfe taketh for the chyrche maye erre or not, he sayth not in all that chapyter any one worde. And so is hys chapyter neyther any thynge towarde hys pryncypall purpose/ nor yet, whyche is more shame for hym, any thynge conteyneth in it belongynge to the mater of the tytle. Then cometh he forth wyth hys other chapyter that a trewe member of Chrystes chyrche synneth not, and is yet [yi] for all that a synner. Whiche chapiter besydes that it is but a fonde rydle, with nothynge but a hepe of folysshe heresyes as I haue proued: yet is it also towarde the mater, that is to wytte whiche is the churche, nothyng to the purpose at all/ for as moche as thoughe he sayeth that they can do no dedeiy synne, yet he confesseth that they may do suche horryble dedes as muste nedes make them be taken for the chyldren of the deuyll. After commeth his other goodly rydle, that a chrysten man can nat erre and howe he may yet erre. And therein he telleth vs as I haue before shewed you, ys the electes can nat erre in ye promyses of god/ & as for all other errours, none can (he sayeth) be dampnable to theym, thoughe the contrary of theyr errour be wrytten in the very gospell. By whiche doctryne of hys ye may se, that errours of doctryne in maner of liuynge Tyndale taketh for a small matter, bycause they be no promyses of god. And therfore is Tyndale nat greatly to be beleued, whan he techeth vs that freres may wedde nonnes/ bicause it is no promyse of god, but a promyse of the frere to the nonne, & of ys nonne to the frere, eche of them wedded and bedded with other, and bothe twayne wedded and bedded with the deuyll. Yet ye se well that thys chapyter yf it were all as trewe as it is all false/ proueth yet no thynge whyche is the chyrche. Where as he sholde fyrste haue proued that the electes onely be the chyrch, and then after serche whyther they can erre or not. Then cometh he forth wyth hys other chapyter, that the fayth whyche he hath before descrybed, is euer foughten wythall. But in ys electes it is in suche wyse inexpugnable, ys when they ones haue it, it can neuer at any tyme after fayle. Now this great conclusyon wherof he maketh this chapyter is such, that as ye se well therupon dependeth many greate maters. Yet doth he not in all thys chapyter brynge forth any maner thynge for the profe, eyther reason, scrypture, or other authoryte / but onely by hys owne bare word, telleth vs that it is so. Now yf he tolde vs a thynge well knowen or comenly byleued, I sholde not blame hym. But now to tell vs suche a thynge so straunge, and vnto euery man saue hym selfe so inopynable, & such as no man wold wene were lykely to be trew, & byd vs so boldely byleue it, [yi] and saue his owne bare wurshypfull word tell vs no cause why: it is eyther a poynt of a man more authorysed then an apostle, or ellys lesse wytted then a very fole. Fynally cometh he forth at laste wyth hys chapyter, whyche he calleth the maner & order of our eleccyon. Therin he telleth vs concernynge electes, and ys order of theyr chosyng, that god doth fyrste chose them, and after calleth them, & techeth them, & maketh theym se theyr dampnacyon in the lawe & mercy layed vp for them in hym, and what he wyll haue them do. And then they chose god agayn & submytte them selfe to hys lawes to walke in them. And that thynge he sayth the man doth of necessyte, bycause his wyll can do none other/ but hys wytte muste nedes se the thynges that god maketh hym se, & his wyll muste nedes agre to folow so the thynge that hys wytte seeth. Then he telleth vs that the mercy of god allwaye wayteth vpon the electe/ by reason wherof he can neuer so fall, but ys he shall ryse agayne. But yet he sheweth vs forther, that for all thys the electe synketh downe somtyme, & falleth into traunces and slepes, by whyche he forgeteth hym selfe, and then doth dyuers horryble & abomynable dedes in hys slepe. But yet in all hys horryble dedes he doth no dedely synne, bycause he doth them all of fraylte and infyrmyte, and none of them of purpose or wyllyngly. For wyllyngly can he not do them, bycause he lyeth a slepe/ nor in all ys whyle hys fayth neuer fayleth at any tyme. And thys he proueth vs by thensamples of kynge Dauyd, and saynt Peter, and saynt Thomas of Inde, and the other apostles. For there was he sayth none of these that in all ys euer we rede in the scrypture reproued in theyr dedes, as aduoutry, manslaughter, not byleuyng, forsakyng, or forsweryng of god/ ys euer was any dedely synne yet, or any faylynge of fayth at any tyme whyle they dyd it. And thys he nothynge proueth but telleth, and loketh that for the wurshyp of hys bare worde, we sholde byleue it. And here is all Tyndals hole tale, that he hath from the begyn- nynge hytherto tolde vs/ wherby we sholde lerne of hym whyche is the chyrche, and whyther the chyrche maye erre or not. In all whych who so loke it thorow & myne answere therwith shall well perceyue ys he hath not in all his hole processe halfe a lefe to gyther nor almost halfe a lyne, without one great foly at ye lest, or els a lye and an halfe. [y2v] Consyder nowe that of hys electes, whyche is of hys wordes mych a do to perceyue, they be so darke and so intryked of purpose wythout any dependence or order/ yet in the ende when all is gathered to gyder and aduysed well, thys is the hole somme, that god choseth a certayne whom he lyketh. And when he choseth them Tyndale telleth not, whyther before the worlde made, or after them selfe borne. But vnto them he sendeth forth, & calleth them, & theym he gyueth a felynge fayth, wherby they fele surely that they shall be saued, wythout any regarde of good workes/ and then they chose hym agayne, & agre to walke in his lawes. But before theyr felyng fayth had, they neuer ones thynke vppon hym. For as for any endeuour of theym selfe at goddes good mocyon towarde the fayth, they do no more he sayth then doth the chylde towarde the gettynge of hys owne father. And hys mercy wayteth euer vppon them. And theyr fayth doth neuer at any tyme fayle them/ nor they do neuer sinne dedely, what horryble & abominable dedes so euer they do. And syth these folke that are Tyndals electes, haue or wene they haue, suche a felynge fayth, that therby they fele or ellys wene they fele that they can not be dampned/ but haue here lerned of Tyndale now, that what horryble dedes so euer they do, they can neuer do dedely synne/ and be also very sure to repente, and then to be neuer punyshed in hell, purgatorye, nor in thys lyfe neyther. (For so farre sayth Tyndale now) but wyth a shorte repentaunce after longe lyenge in synne, sayenge ones Chryste helpe for the maner sake, as it were after a snesynge/ the frerys may from ys nonnes beddes stye euen vp strayght to heuen: they may therfore be bolde & hardy & hardly so they be, to fall to what workes they wyll. For syth theyr fayth is both full of false heresyes, & also can neuer fayle them/ they may make them selfe sure you se well, that they shall be no worse parde, not when they be at the very wurste, then faythfull harlottes, faythfull auowtrers, faythfull vowbrekers, faythfull theuys, faythfull murdres, faythfull traytours to men, and faythfull heretykes to god. And these be as ye se nowe Tyndalys specyall electes/ whyche onely nomber by hys hygh spyrytuall doctryne, he wolde we sholde take for the chyrche. Now good Chrysten reders yf we wolde graunte vnto [yi] Tyndale, that all hys lyes were trew that he hath made in all thys hole pro- cesse of his vnto the ende: yet were he farre from the prouynge of hys pryncypall purpose, that is to tell vs and teche vs whyche is the chyrche/ towarde the techynge wherof he hath no thynge ellys done, but onely gyuen vs two dyffynycyons. Of whyche so declared as they be, neyther nother is suffycyent for hys purpose/ and yet the secunde mych lesse then the fyrste. For where as in the fyrste he defyneth it to be onely the electys, in whose hartes god hath wryten hys lawe wyth hys holy spyryte, and gyuen them a felynge fayth of the mercy that is in Chryste Iesu our lorde: afterwarde in the secunde he sayth that it is the hole multytude of all repentynge synners, that byleue in Chryst, and put all theyr truste and confydence in the mercy of god/ felynge in theyr hartes that god for Chrystes sake loueth them, and wyll be or rather is, mercyfull vnto them, and forgyueth them theyr synnes of whyche they repente, and all the mocyons vnto synne, of whyche they fere that they shall be drawen into synne agayne/ and thus they byleue and fele wythout any respecte of theyr owne deseruynge, ye and for none other cause, then that the mercyfull trouth of god the father whyche can not lye, hath so promysed and sworne. Now ye remember that Tyndale hath put you by the waye, two specyall greate heresyes. One that who so euer after baptysme synneth ones of purpose and wyllyngly, shall neuer haue remyssyon after. The tother, that who so haue onys hys felynge fayth, can neuer synne dedely after. Lette vs now se in the ende, besyde that these heresyes of hys be all redy otherwyse impugned and reproued: let vs yet forther se how hys dyffynycyon of the chyrche and hys heresyes, wyll iumpre and agre to gyther amonge theym selfe. And fyrste I aske Tyndale, whyther he that haue ones after hys baptysme synned of purpose and wyllyngly, and sette malycyousely therto/ maye after by goddes helpe repente agayne that euer he so dyd/ and byleue therwithall, that he is bounden to byleue and loue god and hys neyghbours as god byddeth hym to do. Maye he after suche a synne done, do thys by goddes helpe or not? [yiv] Tyndale wyll peraduenture say he maye not. Then I aske hym how he proueth that. Therto peraduenture he wyll saye that the wordes of saynte Poule, It is im oss ble that the wh che haue ones ben illumyned &c. and the wordes of oure sauyoure hym selfe spoken of the synne of blasphemye agaynst the holy goste, do proue it/ whyche I wyll then denye. For those places takynge them as falsely as any heretyke can construe theym, saye yet at the vtter- moste no more but that hys synne shall neuer be forgyuen hym/ and sayth not that he shall neuer agayne repente, nor that he shall neuer well byleue, nor that he shall neuer after loue god nor hys neyghbour. Wherunto yf Tyndale wyll saye, that yf he myght come to very repentaunce and very bylyefe and loue, he nedes muste haue hys synnes remytted and be saued/ and syth god sayeth he shall neuer be forgyuen, and so neuer saued, he sayth he shall neuer so repent and byleue and loue: to that I answere Tyndale two thynges. One that god in all hys threttes reserueth hys specyall prerogatyue of hys mercy, by whyche hys absolute power is neuer bounden vnder any rule of his ordinary iustyce. Secundely I say, that for as myche as those wordes be mynatory and threttes, they be all of trouth none otherwyse to be vnderstanden, then excepte he repent. As god hym selfe playnely expouned all hys suche wordes by the mouth of hys owne holy prophete Ezechiel / saynge, Though I sholde saye to a synner, thou shalte dye/ and the same synner repent hym of hys synne, and deale iustely and ryghtuousely, and delyuer agayne the pledge, and make restytucyon of the robbery that he hath commytted, and walke in the com- maundementes of lyfe, and do no vnryghtuouse thyng: he shall lyue in lyfe, and shall not dye. Of all hys synnes none shall be layed to hys charge. He hath delte iustely, and ryghtuously he shall lyue in lyfe. Then syth god at the leste wyse maye remytte hys synne and saue hym yf he so repente/ and in scrypture is there no thyng spoken to the contrary, but that he maye so repente: it maye therfore I saye wythout any repentynge, be both put and graunted, that he so shall repent. And therfore I put now that he so do repente/ and then aske I Tyndale whyther he shalbe saued or no. If he saye [yi] ye, he destroyeth hys heresye/ for then he graunteth that he whyche after baptysme sinneth malycyousely, maye for all that be saued. If he saye nay, then he destroyeth hys dyffynycyon/ for then maye there be some repentaunte synners wyth all that euer in hys dyffynycyon foloweth, and yet they shalbe none of the chyrche of hys electes. And thus muste eyther his heresye distroye hys diflinicyon, or his diffinicion muste destroy his heresye. Of whiche twayne yet it wyll be more honestie for hym to kepe his diffinicyon styll, whervpon all his whole mater hangeth / and let his heresy go to the deuyll ys gaue it to hym/ & than vnderstande those places of scripture wher- vpon the deuill taught hym to grounde it, that eyther the blasphemye agaynste the holy goost is finall impenitence, and the tother no restytucyon by the penaunce to the renouacyon of baptysme/ or els that the sore wordes of the both places after a certayne vehement maner of speche vsed in holy scripture, somtyme signifyeth onely great hardenes and difficultie, & nat as hym selfe techeth vs, an vttre impossybilyte of remyssyon. But nowe let vs se howe hys diffinicyon wyll stande with his seconde heresye. You se well and perceyue, that in his seconde diffinicion he restrayneth his electe churche, vnto onely repentaunte synners that beleue as hym selfe sheweth you. And than hathe he confessed vnto you, that his chosyn electes plainly do somtyme abominable dedes / whiche dedes yet they repent nat alwaye, tyll the rage be paste/ and tyll as Tyndale saieth ys they haue played out their lustes/ ye and somtyme to, tyll the colde feare of dethe turne them to gyue an eare to good counsell. Nowe se you than very well, that they be by Tyndals seconde diflinicyon, all this whyle expressely put out of the churche, tyll they repente agayne. And than consyder ferther, howe farre agaynste all reason. Ye remembre very well I wote well, that he techeth vs playnly, that none of hys electes dothe at any tyme synne dedely, thoughe theyr dedes be neuer so horryble and abomynable, bycause of theyr felynge faythe whiche can neyther at any tyme fayle, nor suffre any of theyr horryble dedes, to be dedely synne. And therfore are they consequently neuer out of the fauoure of god, nat euen in the tyme [yiv] wherein they do theyr horryble and abomynable dedes, and before the repentynge of them, whiche may be ye wote well many tymes longe betwene. In all whiche tyme they be by Tyndall out of all dedely synne/ and therfore good folke and faythefull and goddes good chyldren styll. And therfore syth they be so/ wherefore dothe Tyndale that is in some places so angery with ys catholyke churche, for the puttynge out of euyll folke by excommunicacyon / excommunicate good folke now & put out of his elect church hym self & faythfull/ and finally suche as thoughe they be fallen a slepe in lechery, thefte, sacrilege, inceste, & murdre, stande yet hyghly styll in goddes especiall grace & fauour. Nowe the fautes that are commune to bothe hys diflinicyons, and yet more open in the seconde than in the first/ I shall nat nede to reherse you. For bothe haue I touched some of them before, and also many of theym be to euery good christen man so open at his eye, that he can nede none other way to gyue hym warnynge of them. For where all hys electes depende vpon his felynge faythe and hys repentaunce/ whyle hym selfe sheweth what false artycles he techeth his electes for theyr faythe euery good faythefull man very well feleth, that the more that Tyndals electes fele his false faythe, the lesse faythe haue they, and the more faythlesse be they. And whan he techeth them to repent the ryght belefe of Christes sacramentes, and therein the right rule and ordre of repentaunce: euery true repentaunte persone well perceyueth, that Tyndals repentaunte electes, abhorrynge from shryfte, and reiectynge the sacrament of penaunce, but if they mende and repente better, wyll in stede of purgatory whiche they nowe mocke and ieste at, wepe and repente in hell this folysshe frutelesse fassyon of theyr impenitent repentaunce. But nowe suppose that all were very well that Tyndale here hath sayd/ yet howe hath he with all that proued hys purpose? He hathe tolde vs that the whole multytude of his fassyoned electes is the church. But what one worde hathe he tolde vs towarde the profe? neyther reason nor one authoryte of any olde holy saynt, nor any one texte of scrypture/ but onely one or twayne suche as nothynge maketh for his matter, but vtterly clere agaynste hym. [yi] And therfore thoughe we graunte vnto hym, that the whole multitude nat of his false framed electes, but of the very fynall electes, be a churche of Christ/ as he dothe and muste graunte vnto vs, ys the whole multytude of christen people nat gone out nor put out is a churche of Chryste/ of whiche the churche of very electes be, though the better parte, yet a parte and but a parte, and peraduen- ture the lesse parte/ and Tyndals electes, eyther no parte or but a parte, and the very worste parte: yet that the onely electes thoughe they be a churche, be the churche (whiche is the thynge that he shulde proue) that hathe he neyther proued nor any thinge brought effectuall towarde the profe, no more than if he neuer had ment it nor thought it. And therfore nowe hathe he nothynge proued whyche is the churche/ thoughe we wolde yet of our courtesye ferther graunte hym, that all hys whole heresyes were the very faythe/ and that the very electes were onely those, in whose hartes the deuill hath wrytten his lawe / or els (which were yette farre worse) that the very electes were onely those, in whose holy hartes god hadde hym selfe so wrytten his wyll with hys holy spiryte, that they shulde thereby fele that spirituall folke shulde please god with waxynge flesshelye, and freres with weddynge nonnes/ and that if they wolde be saued, they shulde haue therein no respecte vnto good workes, but thinke that onely fayth in the promyse and bare repentaunce withoute shryfte or penaunce shall sufficiently saue theym/ so that they beleue sure that all the seuen sacramentes serue of nothynge, but be but bare signes and tokens, and vtterly as gracelesse as them selfe are Wytlesse/ and specially, so that they beleue that the blessyd body nor blode of Christ be nat in the sacrament of the auter, nor that they do none other honour in no wyse therto, butonely beleue & remembre that there is nothynge but a memoryall of his passyon in a cuppe of wyne and a gobbet of cake brede/ and yet in doubte and questyon whether it be brede or sterche. And than that with this godly belefe they se surely to theym selfe, ys they serue no sayntes, but rayle vpon theyr reliques, and dispyce theyr ymages, and therewith the cruci- fyxe to, and the holy crosse it selfe also/ and than leste they myght happe to lese an hole day in goddes seruice, kepe them selfe well & ware[yiv]ly frome all holy dayes, and specially (for so these here- tykes in theyr bokes call it) from the folisshe faste of lent. And thus lyuinge, and therewith beleuynge these aforesayde heresyes, so fermely that they thynke verely they fele theyr false faythe with theyr very fyngers endes/ be bolde than hardely, and beleue verely that theyr felynge faythe shall neuer fayle them / but at all tymes so preserue them, that they can nat onely neuer be dampned, but ouer that can neuer do dedely synne, thoughe they do neuer so many deuelysshe dedes / but for all theyr falshede, thefte, auoutry, vowe brekynge, treason, murdre, inceste, & periurye, shall for theyr onely felynge faythe be good and faythfull false faythlesse wreches, and therfore god almyghtye hys owne mynyons styll. And thus good christen reders, syth ye nowe playnly perceyue, that Tyndale hathe here for his owne parte no thynge proued vs that hys false framed electes, nor yet that onely the very trewe electes be the churche of Chryst in erthe, nor hathe nothynge shewed vs whiche is/ & therfore onely with all his longe processe, vttred and taughte his errours and his heresyes/ and lefte the mater nat vn- proued onely, but vntouched to, which he toke vpon him and pro- fessed to proue, that is to wytte whiche is the churche/ but as though he had well and playnly proued it whiche he hathe nat so moche almoste as spoken of, leaueth of his owne parte nowe and turneth hym to impugne ours: I shall leaue hym for his parte a whyle in the myre, in whiche him selfe hathe ouerthrowen his mater/ and shall shewe you shortely howe angrely he ryseth vp, and ryally rayed in dyrte, bycause he can nat proue the churche of Christe here in erthe to be a congregacion vnknowen, layeth hys myry handes vpon the knowen catholyke churche of Chryste, and fayne wolde pulle that downe to, and so leue no churche at all. Here endethe the fourth boke.  The fyfth boke, of the confutacyon of Tyndals answere. The Answere vnto the Chapyter of Tyndale, in whiche he wold proue that the knowcn catholyke Chyrche is not ys chyrche. Whyther the knowen Catholyke Chyrche Can be the chyrche. YE haue all redy good chrysten readers well seen and perceyued, that Tyndale hath in a longe processe labored to proue you, that the chyrch of Cryste is a nother company then the knowen catholyke company of all chrysten regyons/ that is to wytte a certayne secrete scatered congregacyon vnknowen to all the worlde besyde, and to theyr owne felowes to/ and euery man by hys inwarde felynge not onely knowen onely to hym selfe, but also so well and surely knowen vnto hym selfe for a vertuouse good and faythefull fynall electe of god, that he is in hym selfe very certayne and sure that he can not be but saued/ and that he so hath the spyryte of god imprysoned in hys breste and so faste fetered in hys holy harte, wherof hym selfe hath loste the kaye, that neyther the spyryte can crepe out nor hym selfe lette hym out by no maner meane/ but there muste the spyryt abyde and so preserue and kepe that specyall chosen creature, that he suffer hym to do many great abomynable horryble deuelysshe dedys, but yet neuer suffer hym in no wyse to do any dedely synne. Thys I saye ye haue all redy seen, that Tyndale hath by a longe processe labored mych to proue vs / and hath in conclusyon not onely no thynge proued vs therof, but hath in stede of felynge fayth- full folke, brought vs forth suche a sort, as neuer was there puddynge stuffed so full of farsynge, as hys holy felynge faythfull folke are farsed full of heresyes. Wherfore seynge that for the very chyrche of Cryste here in erth, whyche god hath and euer shall instructe and preserue in hys trewe fayth and out of the fayth of whyche chyrch shall neyther be trewe fayth hope nor cherite/ he can when he hath all done fynde out none other, then thys comon knowen catholyke chyrche of all chrysten people, ney[Aiv]ther of malyce gone out nor for obstinacy put out/ of which comon knowen catholyke chyrche, all the good and trewe penytent electes be parteners in fayth: seynge I saye that he can proue none other chyrche, he now gothe aboute to dysproue that chyrche to/ wherby we maye well perceyue that he goeth not aboute to fynde out the chyrche, but rather to make men to wene that there were no chyrch at all. About thys purpose vseth he now thys order. Fyrste in one chapyter he taketh vppon hym to proue ys the knowen catholyke chyrche is not the chyrche of Cryste. Afterwarde in hys other chapyters folowynge, he pretendeth to answere and soyle the reasons, wyth whyche it is proued that the knowen catholyke chyrche is the chyrche of Cryste, and that none of these sectes of heretykes be. And yet pretendynge as I say that he wyll soyle all the reasons of the tother syde/ of so many as there are he towcheth onely twayne/ and yet those twayne how symple he soyleth, that shall you after se. Let vs now go to Tyndals fyrste poynte / whych poynt in hys fyrste chapyter how falsely he handeleth and how farre fro the poynt, it is euyn a world to se. For fyrst he maketh the tytle before hys chapyter in thys wyse. Tyndale. Whyther the pope and his secte be Crystes chyrche or no. More. Well ye wote good chrysten readers, that I (whose dyaloge in the begynnyng of hys wurke he professeth hym selfe wyth all hys hole boke to answere) haue in places inough well and playnely declared, that I call the chyrche of Cryste the catholyke knowen chyrche of all chrysten nacyons, neyther gone out nor out of. And all be it that all these nacyons now do and longe haue done, recognysed & knowleged the pope, not as the byshop of rome but as the successoure of saynt Peter, to be theyr chyefe spyrytuall gouernour vnder god, and Chrystes vycar in erth/ and so do not onely we call hym but Tyndalys owne felowe frere Barns to:yet dyde I neuer put the pope for parte of the dyffynycyon of the chyrche, dyffynyng the chyrche to be the comon knowen congregacyon of all chrysten nacyons vnder one hed the pope. Thus dyd I neuer defyne the chyrche/ but purposely declyned therfro, bycause I wolde not intryke & entangle [Ai] the mater wyth two questyons at onys. For I wyste very well that the chyrche beynge proued thys comon knowen catholyke congregacyon of all chrysten nacyons, abydyng to gyther in one fayth, neyther fallen of nor cut of: there myghte be peraduenture made a secunde questyon after ys, whyther ouer all that catholyke chyrche the pope muste nedes be hed and chyefe gouernour or chyefe spyrytuall shepherde/ or ellys that ys vnyon of fayth standyng among them all, euery prouynce myghte haue theyr owne chyefe spyrytuall gouernour ouer it selfe, wythout any recourse vnto the pope, or any superyoryte recognysed to any other outwarde person. And then yf the pope were or no pope/ but as I say prouyncyall patryarches, archbysshoppes, or metropolytanes, or by what name so euer the thynge were called: what authoryte & what power eyther he or they sholde haue among the people, these thynges well I wyste wolde rayse among many men many mo questyons then one. For the aduoydyng of all intrycacyon wherof/ I purposely forbare to put in the pope as parte of the dyffynycyon of the chyrche, as a thynge that neded not/ syth yf he be the necessary hed, he is in- cluded in the name of the hole body. And Whyther he be or not/ yf it be brought in questyon, were a mater to be treated and dysputed besyde. And therfore maye ye good chrysten readers se, ys Tyndale whyche in thys poynte wyll in no wyse perceyue me, but maketh the tytle of hys chapyter whyther the pope and hys secte be chrystes chyrche or no/ laboreth to fle fro the lyght, and hyde hys hed in the darke, and confounde the mater wyth two questyons at onys. Now is not the tytle of hys chapyter so synystrely wryten and wryed awaye from the poynt/ but the begynnynge of hys chapyter it selfe, is mych worse and forther wrested wronge. For lo thus he begynneth. Tyndale. That the pope and his spirites be not the chyrche maye this wyse be proued. More. Lo before in the tytle he made hys questyon of the pope and hys secte, whyche questyon as I haue shewed you he framed farre from the mater/ and syth those people whych Tyndale calleth ye popys secte (by whych name he meneth all that professe the comon catholyke fayth) be all the na[Aiv]cyons chrystened, excepte a few late fallen to Luther, wyclyffe, frere Huskyn, and zuynglius: how fyttly he vseth his termes in callynge all the body a secte, whyche he myghte as well call a scysme, for bothe sygnyfye a cuttyng of from the hole chyrche/ and then as well he maye and so doth he soone after, call the heretykes ys chyrche/ and therin calleth he bothe twayne as properly, as yf he wolde cut of a cantell or a gobbet from an hole lofe, and then call the cantell a lofe and the lofe a cantell. But where as before in the tytle he made as I saye hys questyon of the pope and hys secte/ here he turneth it into the pope and hys spyrytes. In whyche excepte he call spyrytes in mocke & scorne/ all chrysten nacyons besydes those corners that professe them selfe for heretykes / he muste nedes mene here by hys scornefull name of spyrytes, onely the pope and the spyrytualtye/ and then goeth he yet mych forther fro me wyth whom he sholde cope. For I call euer the chyrche whyche hys parte is here to impugne, not the spyrytualtye onely, but the hole corps and body of spyrytuall and temporall to. And Tyndale very well woteth, that the spyrytualtye so farforth doth accompte not them selfe alone but the temporaltye, and them selfe to gether for the catholyke chyrch/ that there is not so pore a frere, but he professyth it almost in euery sermone. In whyche when he exhorteth hys audyence to praye for the chyrche, he sayth not ye shall praye for the spyrytualtye alone/ but ye shall saythe he praye for the thre estates of holy chyrche, that is to wytte the spyrytualty the temporalty and the sowles that be in purgatory. For though they be departed out of our company, yet them compte we styll for viagers and pylgrymmes in the same pylgrymage that we be towarde the same place of rest and welth that we walke, tyll they be passed ones all the payne of theyr iournaye, and entred into the blesse of heuen. Nowe it is a greate shame for Tyndale to flye fro the poynte as he dothe, in a mater so playne and open, that euery chylde maye se how lothe he is to comme nere and cope. But Tyndale hath all redy ryden so many shrewed courses, in whyche he hath hadde suche buffettes, that he hath almoste broken hys horses backe and hys owne to/ that now neyther is there bere nor heretyke more lothe to [Ai] come to the stake, then Tyndale to come nere the tylte. And therfore drawynge a syde and flyttynge from the chyrche, that is to wytte frome the hole multytude of all chrysten nacyons, spyrytu- all and temporall bothe, whiche is the tylte by whyche he hath to ronne: he standythe styll at the tyltes ende tymperynge and tem- perynge aboute his harneys, and wyll no forther then the spyry- tualtye/ but putteth of hys helmet and doeth on a folys hode, and from iustynge falleth to iestynge, to do the people pleasure, and dreue awaye the mater wyth makynge of mockes and mowes. For now lo shall we peruse hys proues. Lo thys wyse reason he bryngeth in the fyrste. Tyndale. That the pope and his spyrytes be not the chyrche, maye thys wyse be proued. He thay hath no fayyh to be saued thorow Cryste, is not of Crystes chyrche. The pope beleueth not to be saued thorowe Cryste. For he teacheth to truste in holy workes for the remyssyon of synnes and saluacyon/ as in the workes of penaunce enioyned, in vowes, in pylgrymage, in chastyye, in other mennes prayers and holy lyuynge, in freres and freres cotes, in sayntes merytes. And the sygnyficacyons put out/ he teacheth to byleue in the dedes of the ceremonyes, and of the sacramentes ordeyned at the begynnynge, to preache vnto vs and to do vs seruyce/ and not that we sholde beleue in them and serue them. And a thousande suche superstycyousnesse setteth he before vs in stede of Cryste, to byleue in neyther Cryste nor goddes worde, neyther honourable to god nor seruysable vnto our neyghbour, nor profytable vn to our selues for the tamyng of the flesshe, whiche all are the denyenge of Crystes blode. More. Some man wolde here peraduenture saye to Tyndale, that he playeth in thys poynte the very folysshe dysour, for the faute of the man to rayle vpon the offyce/ consyderyng that all be it there haue popes bene that haue euyll played theyr partes, yet haue there ben popes agayne ryghte holy men sayntes and martyrs to/ and therfore in iestynge thus vppon a good offyce for an euyll offycer, he canne [Aiv] lacke no mater of raylynge, but maye runne out in hys ry- baldry at large, and saye that all the hole worlde muste leue of all maner of offyces, and neyther haue pope, emperour, kynge, counsay- lour, mayre, shyryffe, nor alderman to gouerne or rule the comons, nor yet any man in hys owne howse stewarde, cater, pantler, butler, or cooke. For among all these offyces there can be founden none, that hath not had ere thys many an yll man in the rome. Therfore wolde some man thynke I saye, that Tyndals raylynge here vppon the pope were all ronne out of reason, though that all the thynges whyche he layeth here to hys charge, were in dede as euyll as Tyndale wolde haue them taken. But surely syth the man hath fawtes inough besyde/ I wyll my selfe defende hym well in thys. For thys wyll I well make good in his byhalfe, that yf the fawtes for whyche he rayleth here vpon the pope, be thynges noughte in dede and worthy to be rebuked/ then rnaye he well and lawfully ryally ieste and rayle vppon the hole pedegre of popes, saynt Peter hym selfe and all. For surely the thynges for ys techynge wherof Tyndale rebuketh here the pope, hath euer ben the doctryne of popes, patri- arches, prophetes, apostles, and our sauyour hym selfe and all. For fyrste he proueth vs that the pope byleueth not to be saued thorow Christ, bycause he techeth to truste in holy workes for remyssyon of synnes and saluacyon. Is not here a peryllous lesson trow ye/ namely so taught as the chyrch techeth it, that no good work can be done wythout helpe of goddes grace, nor no good worke of man worthy the rewarde of heuen but by the lyberall goodnesse of god, nor yet sholde haue suche a pryce sette vppon it saue thorowe the merytes of Crystes bytter passyon / and that yet in all our dedes we be so vnperfyt, ys eche man hath good cause to fere for hys owne parte, leste his beste be badde. I wolde wene that good workes were not so dedely poyson/ but takynge not to myche at onys for cloyenge of the stomake, no more at onys lo then I se the worlde wont to do many drannmes of suche tryacle myxed with one scruple of drede, were able inough for awght that I can se so to preserue the soule fro pre- sumpcyon, that one sponefull of good workes sholde no more kylle the soule, then a potager of good and stroye the body. [Ai] The scrypture byddeth vs watche, and faste, and pray, and gyue almoyse, and forguye our neyghbour / & we pore men that that lacke the hyghe spyrytuall syghte that Tyndale hath and hys holy electys, take these thynges for good workes. And god sayth in hys holy wrytte, that he wyll for- geue our synnes the rather for them, and wyll rewarde vs for them, & thorow the scrypture/ thys cryeth god in our earys, and faythfully promyseth almost in euery lefe. And now ye se Tyndale that precheth so faste of the fayth and truste of goddes promyses, wolde haue vs in these promyses trust god nothyng at all. But herein is great peryll, specyally to hope and truste to gete any good at goddes hand for ys workes of penaunce enioyned. For the sacrament of penaunce is to Tyndale a great abomynacion, and therin in dede he sayth somwhat. For well ye wote euyn of naturall reason, a wyse man wyll sone se, that syth the punysshement that a man wylfully taketh for the synne that he hath done commeth of an angre and dyspleasure that he bereth towarde hym selfe for the dyspleasure that hys synne hath done to god/ and that his wyllyng submyttyng of hym selfe to the correccyon of hys goostly father, commeth of great humylyte gyuen by god, and taught by all good men: god muste nedes therefore perde bothe be angry and abhorre all them, that for the frutes of these good affections can hope for any fauour grace or pardone at hys mercyfull hande. If Tyndale lyste to loke in sainte Austayn in his boke of penaunce/ he shall there fynde that holy doctour & saint, byd euery man put hym self whole in hys confessours hand, and humbly receyue and fulfyll such penaunce as he shall enioyne hym. But than doth Tyndale specyally touch, that ys church techeth to put trust in vowys and in chastyte /. for that is a thyng in the earys of Luthers electes of all thynges moste abomynable. But the churche techeth none other truste therin, than the scrypture doth hyt selfe, and oure blessed sauyour hym selfe. They teche sayth Tyndale, to truste in other mennes prayours and holy lyuyng, in freres and in freres cotys. Is nat here an abomynable synne, that any man shulde haue so lytle pryde in hym selfe, that he shuld thynke other men moche better than hym selfe, and therfore desyre them [Aiv] to pray for hym to, besyde hym selfe? In howe many places doth the scrypture exhort eche of vs to pray for other? And whan the scrypture sayth that the dylygent prayoure of a iuste man is moche worth/ shuld we than truste nothynge therin, but thynke that it were ryght nought worth at all/ or bycause the scrypture so com- mendeth the prayour of a good man, shuld we lyke hys prayour the lesse for his holy lyuynge, & byd hym pray nat for vs but yf he lyue nought/ or if he be a frere and go in a freres cote, bydde hym praye nat for vs, tyll he put of hys frerys cote and put on a frese cote, and runne out of hys ordre, and catche hym a quene & call her hys wyfe? Than goeth he from good lyuers in erth vnto sayntes in heuyn/ & fyndeth yet more faute, in that men are taught to go in any pylgry- mage, or do any worshyp to them, or to thynke that theyr good lyuyng was so pleasaunt vnto god whyle they lyued here in erth, that he wyll therfore vouche saufe to do any thynge at theyr requeste for any louer of theyres, whyle they be wyth hym in heuyn. Howe be it in thys poynt I dare be bolde to say for Tyndale my selfe, that he is nat so folysh, but that he seeth well ynough that if I may well pray my neyghbur to pray for me that is here wyth me in erthe/ I may moche better pray the sayntes pray for me that are with god in heuyn/ sauing that he byleueth that they be nat there, nor neyther here vs nor se vs, but lye styll as Luther sayth a slepe. And therfore Tyndale leste we myghte wene that he byleued well, byddeth vs in another place of hys boke, that when we mete ys sayntes and talke wyth any of them, than lette vs hardely knele and make our prayour to them. And so ye shall natte nede to meruayle moche though thys man be bolde to ieste and rayle vpon euery man here in erth, when he fereth nat to make mokkes and mowys at the blessed sayntes in heuyn. He blameth vs and bylieth vs, as though we toke theyr dede ymagys for quyke. But hym selfe semeth yet moche worse in dede, that taketh goddes quykke saintes for dede, agaynst Chrystes owne wordes declarynge the contrary, bothe by the scrypture in the gospell of saynte Mathew, & by the story that Chryste also telleth of Habraam and the ryche gloton and Lazare in the.xvi. chapytre of Luke. Than commeth Tyndale in at the laste wyth the cere[Bi]monyes of the church and the sacramentes/ agaynst which prykke he specy- ally spurneth wyth hys kybede hele, but it wyll nat helpe hym. The gentleman is so proude, that the holy sacramentes muste be his waytynge seruauntes. For now he sayth that they be but supersty- cyouse and serue of noughte, but be sette in stede of Cryste, and are (as they be taught) the denyenge of Crystes bloude. How sholde they now be the denyeng of Crystes bloud, when the chyrche teacheth vs as god hath taught it, that they all haue theyr strength by Crystes bloude, and that in the tone of them is Crystes oWne very bloude and hys blessed body bothe. Bothe whyche thys heretyke denyeth/ and as in my fyrste boke I shewed yow, bothe iesteth and scoffeth vppon the precyouse body and bloude of Cryste -n the blessed sacrament of the aulter/ and lyke a madde frantyke fole maketh mokkes and mowys at the masse. And now that ye se good chrysten reders for what doctryne Tyndale rebuketh the comon catholyke chyrche/ ye can not but therby perceyue what doctryne he wolde haue them teche/ that is to wytte that we shold haue no respecte to good workes, vse no shryfte nor penaunce, beware of chastyte and blesse vs well therfro, let no good men praye for vs, nor none that vse holy lyuynge, no Francysce frere bydde any bede for vs in hys freres cote, tyll he do of hys graye garmentes and cloth hym selfe cumly in gaye kendall grene / sette sayntes at nought, and all holy ceremonyes vsed in goddes seruyse, and make our prayour to them. And so ye shall natte nede to meruayle moche though thys man be bolde to ieste and rayle vpon euery man here in erth, when he fereth nat to make mokkes and mowys at the blessed sayntes in heuyn. He blameth vs and bylieth vs, as though we toke theyr dede ymagys for quyke. But hym selfe semeth yet moche worse in dede, that taketh goddes quykke saintes for dede, agaynst Chrystes owne wordes declarynge the contrary, bothe by the scrypture in the gospell of saynte Mathew, & by the story that Chryste also telleth of Habraam and the ryche gloton and Lazare in the.xvi. chapytre of Luke. Than commeth Tyndale in at the laste wyth the cere[Bi]monyes of the church and the sacramentes/ agaynst which prykke he specy- ally spurneth wyth hys kybede hele, but it wyll nat helpe hym. The gentleman is so proude, that the holy sacramentes muste be his waytynge seruauntes. For now he sayth that they be but supersty- cyouse and serue of noughte, but be sette in stede of Cryste, and are (as they be taught) the denyenge of Crystes bloude. How sholde they now be the denyeng of Crystes bloud, when the chyrche teacheth vs as god hath taught it, that they all haue theyr strength by Crystes bloude, and that in the tone of them is Crystes owne very bloude and hys blessed body bothe. Bothe whyche thys heretyke denyeth/ and as in my fyrste boke I shewed yow, bothe iesteth and scoffeth vppon the precyouse body and bloude of Cryste -n the blessed sacrament of the aulter/ and lyke a madde frantyke ole maketh mokkes and mowys at the masse. And now that ye se good chrysten reders for what doctryne Tyndale rebuketh the comon catholyke chyrche/ ye can not but therby perceyue what doctryne he wolde haue them teche/ that is to wytte that we shold haue no respecte to good workes, vse no shryfte nor penaunce, beware of chastyte and blesse vs well therfro, let no good men praye or vs, nor none that vse holy lyuynge, no Francysce frere bydde any bede for vs in hys freres cote, tyll he do of hys graye garmentes and cloth hym selfe cumly in gaye kendall grene / sette sayntes at nought, and all holy ceremonyes vsed in goddes seruyse, and also the seuen sacramentes to / make mokkes at the masse and at Crystes body, and take it for nothynge but cake brede or starche, And when the clergye techeth this onys / then shall they be the chyrch. But for lakke of this doctryne, they be no parte therof For Tyndale telleth vs that tyll they teche vs thus/ they can neuer byleue to be saued thorowe Cryste. And I saye me semeth as I be saued thorowe Cryste, yf Tyndale laye madde in the myddes of Bedlem, he coulde not to good chrysten men tell a more frantyke tale. And thyS fransey is hys fyrste reason. Now let vs here hys seconde. The Secohde reason. Tyndale. Another reason is, who so euer byleue in Cryste consenteth that goddes lawe is good. The pope consenteth not that goddes lawe is good/ for he hath forboden lawfull wedlokke vnto all his ouer whom he reygneyh, as a temporall [Biv] yyrant with lawes of his owne makynge, and not as a brother exhortynge them to kepe Crystes. And he hath graunted vnlawfull horedome vnto as many as brynge money. As thorow all dowchelande, euery preste payenge a gylden vnto the archedecon, shall frely and quyetly haue his whore, and put her awaye at his pleasure, and take another at his owne luste. As they do in Wales, in Irelande, Scoylande, Fraunce, and Spayne. And in Englande therto they be not fewe whyche haue lycences to kepe whores some of the pope and some of theyr ordynaryes. And when the parysshes go to law with them to put awaye theyr whores/ the bysshoppes offycers mocke them, polle them, and make them spende theyr thryftes, & the prestes kepe theyr whores styll. How be it in very dede sens they were rebuked by the preachynge of wycleffe/ our englyshe spyrytualyye haue layed theyr snares vnto mennes wyues to couer theyr abomynacyons, though they byde not alwaye secrete. More. Here Tyndal proueth vs that no pope byleueth in god/ For none of them consenteth that goddes law is good. He proueth that they consent nat that goddes lawe is good, bycause they make he sayth lawes of theyr owne byside/ & therfore he sayth that they nat onely consent nat that goddes lawe is good, but also that they raygne ouer chrysten people lyke temporall tyrauntes. Wherby Tyndale echeth vs that euery temporall prynce makyng any lawe byside ye awe of god, consenteth nat that goddes lawe is good, nor vseth nat ym self as a lawful prynce, but as an vnlawful tyraunt/ bycause he doth nat onely as a brother exhort Chrystes law, but also lyke a tyraunte compelleth them to kepe hys owne. Now thys glawnce that Tyndale in raylyng vpon popes maketh by he way at all temporall princes and lawes is if they playnly durste peke it oute, the very pryncipall poynte of all hys whole purpose and ys mayster Marten Luthers to, and all the serpentyne seed that is discended of them. For Luther sayth ys we nede no mo lawes but onely the gospell well and truly preched after hys owne false fas- shyon. And he babeleth also in hys babilonica that neyther man nor ngell hath any power or authoryte to make any law or any one yllable of a law vppon any chrysten man, wythout hys own agre- ent gyuen therunto. And by frere Barns heresy, a man may wyth out dedely synne breke all the lawes that are made by men. And thus ye may se that the shrewd sort of all this secte, wolde nat onely haue popes and popes lawes gone and [Bi] taken away, but kynges & kynges lawes to, if theyre purpose myght prosper/ & make all people lawles, bycause all lawes are lettes as they take theym to theyr euangelicall libertie by whych they clayme to be bounden or compelled to nothyng, but exhorted onely to lyue euery man after the gospell, by euery man, expouned after hys owne mynde whych maner of exhortyng amounteth vnto as moche, as to let all rune at ryot wythout any bond or brydell, & than exhort euery man to lyue as he lyste hym selfe. But now is it good to se what lawe so specyally lyeth in Tyndals eye/ for whyche he generally rayleth vpon all the remanaunt. That is for that he sayeth that the pope hath forboden lawfull wedlocke. In thys he meneth two thynges, with whych two Luther and wyclyffe ere euyll content before. One that there is maryage now forboden bytwene bretherne and systers chyldren that was not before forboden by the scrypture. For whyche cause wyclyffe sayth that suche mary- ages are forboden wythout any fundacyon or grounde. But thys thynge, to whyche pope wyll Tyndale laye? For he shall fynde that in these thynges the olde holy pope saynt Gregory and dyuers other holy popes to, and not popes onely but also dyuers counsayles and great assemblees of holy vertues fathers, haue in olde tyme sone vpon chrystendome well spredde abrode, for encreace of naturall honesty and propagacyon of chrysten cheryte, forboden maryage to be made wyth other degrees bothe of kynred and affy- nyte, mych forther of then they that abyde now forboden/ wyth whyche the chyrche hath synnys for our infyrmytye dyspensed and vndone the bonde/ so that in that poynt the faute that Tyndale, wyclyffe, and Luther lay vnto the pope, they muste laye to so many suche popes and other holy men besyde, that who so consyder the tone sorte & the tother wyll haue lytell luste to byleue thre or foure nowe suche maner folke as Tyndale and hys fonde felowes be, agaynste so many vertuouse old holy fathers as they were that made those lawes. The tother law that he layeth so sore agaynst the pope, is that prestes, freres, chanons, monkes and nunnes, may not be suffred to be wedded, contrary to theyr owne vowys and promyses made vnto god, whyche no man compelled them to make. Is not thys a greate fawte that frere tukke [Biv] maye not mary madde Maryon? But then to set out thys mater somwhat the better to the shewe/ he ryally rayleth out at large vppon all bysshoppes, archedekens, and other spyrytuall offycers. Whose fautes yf they be suche as we well knowe that he falsely bylyeth many / yet were theyr euyll demeanure neyther to be imputed vnto the law which forbedeth it as ye gospell doth nor vnto the pope. Whyche when he hath ben enformed of a bysshoppes faute, hath as by dyuers decretales ap- pereth proceded to the punysshement and amendement therof But Tyndale letteth not to lye out alowde, and saye that the pope hath hym selfe graunted vnlawfull whoredome to as many as brynge money/ and in another place of hys boke he sayth, that the pope hath in Rome sette vp a stewys of boyes. We haue hadde many pardonys come hyther and many dyspensa- cions and many licences to/ but yet I thanke oure lorde I neuer knewe none suche, nor I truste neuer shall, nor Tyndale I trowe neyther/ but that he lysteth lowde to lye. And as for hys lycences custumably gyuen by the ordynaryes, I truste he lyeth in other Countrees/ for as for Englande I am sure he lyeth. And therfore euery honest man wyll I wote well take hys tale therafter, for in the lyke maner he maye when he lyste, and wyll hereafter when he seeth his tyme, rayle vppon euery lorde that hath any lete, and vppon all the sessyons of peace kepte wythin the realme / in all whyche many kyndes of malefactours are amerced yerely, and fynes sette on theyr Neddes, & they compelled to paye them, to compelle theym therby to leue theyr euyll doynge/ and yet wyll there many for all that be starke nought styll. But yet are not thamercementes made for lycen- ces/ but deuysed for punyshementes & for meanes of amendement, though the malyce of many men be so mych that they neuer amende therby. And consyder that hys seconde reason wherin he reproueth all lawes the spyrytuall openly, and couertly the temporall to, and for the lawes calleth the makers tyrauntes/ so farforth ys fynally no man can please hym, but wyclyffe the fyrst founder here of that abomin- able heresye, that blasphemeth the blessed sacrament/ thys seconde reason of hys I say euery wyse man seeth, is yet more vnreasonable and mych more fonde and folysshe then the fyrste. [Bi] The thyrde reason. Tyndale. Therto all chrysten men yf they haue done amys, repent when theyr fautes be tolde them. The spyrytualtye repent not but of very luste and consente to synne, persecute both the scrypture wherwith they be rebuked, and also them that warne them to amende and make heretykes of them and burne them. And besydes that the pope hath made a playne decre, in whiche he commaundeth sayenge, Though the pope synne neuer so greuously, and drawe wyth hym to hell by hys ensample thousandes innumerable/ yet let no man be so hardy to rebuke hym. For he is hede ouer all, and none ouer hym/ Distinct. xl. Si papa. More. Here he proueth vs that the spyrytualtye be not of the chyrche/ or none is of the chyrche but repentauntes. And then all chrysten men he sayeth repente, as soone as theyr fautes be told them/ but the spyrytualty he sayth repent not. Tyndale doth now forgete, that he hath ofter then onys tolde vs here before, that hys owne electes wyll not euer here theyr fautes tolde them at the fyrste whyle they be caryed forth in the rage/ but that a man must yf he wyll haue audyence, tary tyll ye luskes haue played out theyr lustes/ & as he sayd in one place, some of they wyll not gyue eare tyll the very colde fere of deth come. And noWe yf he wyll stande to thys tale, he gyueth the spyrytualtye whom he so sore accuseth, a playne answere after hys owne doctryne, that he is to hasty vppon them/ they maye be of his owne especyall electes perde fulwell, though they be not content to mende yet/ but he must suffer them to playe out all theyr lustes, or ellys tyll they come so nere the colde fyre of deth that they fele not one sparke of the warme flesshe, and then speke and he shalbe herde. How be it leuyng hys owne doctryne for hym selfe, they maye tell hym that he is somwhat ouer temeraryouse and bolde, eyther to iudge so rashely the repentaunce of other men whiche inwardly lyeth in the harte, wherof onely god is the beholder / or ellys to impute and ascrybe the maner and condycyon of some impenitent wretchys, to the whole company of the clergy, whiche vsually de, clare theym selfe repentaunt by shryfte and confessyon of theyr synnes and doynge of penaunce, as all other good chrysten people do. Now yf Tyndale alledge agaynste theym, that for all that they falle to dedely synne agayne: we wyll aske hym [Biv] wherby knoweth he that/ and then muste he saye that by some synfull dedes. But then yf he graunte onys, that dedely synfull dedes be a sure suffycyent profe of dedely synfull myndes: he destroyeth ye wote well all hys owne formar doctryne, concernynge the synnynge and yet not syn- nynge of his owne holy electes, whyche can he sayth neuer synne dedely do they neuer so horryble dedes. And yet as for repentynge/ our clergy perde maye well appere more penitent then theyres. For I dare boldely say that excepte some such as be fallen into Luthers and Tyndales chyrch/ there is ellys no man so bad of the catholyke chyrche, but he wyll confesse and agre that hys lechery is dedely synne. But on the tother syde, theyr owne clergy & the very great clerkes of theyr clergy, as the greate clerke Luther, and the great clerke Tindale, and the great clerke Huyskyns: yf they be asked whyther the lechery bytwene a frere & a nunne be dedely synne or no, they wyll answere ye wote well that it is none at all/ yf they gyue it onys an honest name then is it no synne at all, yf they call it matrymony, but shall haue hell for theyr patrymony. herof ye se well they repent not a whytte/ but they wyll I warraunt you when they come there. But all theyr excuse lyeth in thys, that all theyr fawtes come but of frayltye / and our spyrytualtye synneth of malyce, bycause they persecute Tyndals holy translacyon of the scrypture, in whyche hym selfe hath playnely confessed that he turned the vsuall englysshe wordes of chyrche, preste, and penaunce, to congregacyon, senyor, and repentaunce, of very purpose to brynge in his heresyes agaynst the sacramentes. Whych whyle he so dyd of purpose/ I am content to wynke therat, and forgete for thys onys that he synned therin of playne purpensed malyce. But yet thys wyll I saye the whyle for our parte, that he hath no good grounde to saye that the persecucyon is malycyouse, done agaynst such a translacyon, so translated of much a shrewd entent and suche a malycyouse purpose. Now yf he wolde excuse hym selfe from malyce, in that he wold make vs wene that though part be false, hym self myght of weyke wyt and frayle fayth, wene hys heresyes were the trewe bylyefe, bycause of his owne mynde & Luthers & Huyskyns authoryte in the construccyon of scrypture: he muste perde by the same reason excuse our clergy [Bi] from malyce in persecutynge his heresyes, syth that they maye well wytte, by the authoryte of saynt Austayn, saynt Hierom, saynt Gregory, saynt Ambrose, saynte Cypriane, saynt Basyle, saynt Chrysostome, & all the olde holy sayntes vnto theyr owne dayes, and all the whole catholyke chyrche of Cryste, and by hys holy spyryte gyuen to those holy doctours of his chyrche and euer abydynge therin / that those heresyes whiche Tyndale techeth, that freres may wedde nunnes, and that the sacramentes be but bare tokens and sygnes, and Crystes blessed body at the masse no sacryfyce nor none oblacyon, nor but a bare memoryall in wyne and starche or cakebrede, be very false deuelysshe errours/ and in all good chrysten mennes eares, spyghtfully spoken, blasphemouse, and abomynable. And where he sayth that the clergye doth rebuke them by whome they be warned to amende, and doth make heretykes of them & burne them, menynge Hytton peraduenture & suche other as he was/ of whiche sorte there hathe of late some be burned in Smythfelde, as Bayfelde, Baynom, and Teuxbery: the clergy maketh them nat heretykes nor burneth them neyther. But Tyndales bokes and theyr owne malyce maketh them heretykes. And for heretikes as they be/ the clergy dothe denounce them. And as they be well worthy, the temporaltie dothe burne them. And after the fyre of Smythfelde, hell dothe receyue them/ where the wretches burne for euer. But than he sayeth that <2the pope neuer repenteth, bycause he hathe made>2 <2a playne decre, in whiche he commaundeth sayenge, Thoughe the pope synne>2 <2neuer so greuously, and drawe wyth hym to hell by hys ensample thousandes>2 <2innumerable/yet let no man be so hardy to rebuke hym. For he is hede ouer all,>2 <2and none ouer hym/ Distinct.xl. Si papa.>2 There are orders in Christes churche, by which a pope may be bothe admonisshed and amended / and hathe be for incorrigible mynde and lacke of amendement, finally deposed and chaunged. But that euery lewde lorell vppon euery false tale that he hereth, or peraduenture that hym selfe maketh, shulde haue courage and boldenes to scoffe, geste, and rayle, eyther vpon pope or prince, or a moche more meane estate/ is a thinge so lytle com- mendable, that euery well ordered regyon, hath by playne lawes prohibited & forboden suche rybauldous byhauoure/ all thoughe they were able to proue that the thynge whiche they sayde [Biv] were nothynge false at all. And this thynge hathe euery well ordered realme, nat without good reason prouyded/ syth it well appered that were the thing trewe were it false, it were vnsittynge to suffre that maner to be vsed, wherby the gouernours myghte often causeles and falsely be defamed amonge the people. And if the thynge were some tyme peraduenture trewe/ yet syth that fassyon & maner can nothinge amende the mater, & therfore is by all lawes forboden to be in suche wise vsed towarde the most symple wretche in all a towne/ it were a lewde thinge to suffre any prynce, estate, or gouernour, to be brought in sclaunder amonge the comen people/ wherof can come none other effecte or frute, but hatered or contempt planted in theyr hertes towarde theyr rulers and gouernours, whom they be for all that styll bounden bothe to loue and obaye. And if a man wolde say that great men can nat otherwyse come to the knowlege of theyr owne fautes: ye may be sure that if the thynges be trewe wherof the people talke, they knowe theyr dedes them selfe before the people here of them. And if the same be false/ yet may many men haue it in theyr mouthes before it come at the princes eare/ and yet whan he hereth it syth the same is fayned, what good can he do thereby. And if percase any man thinke that the prynces them selfe perceyue nat theyr fautes for fautes/ tyll they here the people murmure and wondre at theym: surely right seldome happes it that a man coulde nat perceyue that thynge for a faute, whiche were in dede so great that it were worthy for all the people to wonder at. And yet if priuate affection towarde theyr owne fantasies, happened in any thynge so far to myslede theyr iudgemente/ for helpe of suche happes serue their confessours and counsaylours / & euery man that of good mynde wolde in good maner declare his owne good aduyce towarde his prynce and his countrey, eyther to his owne person or suche other of his counsayle, as by them it may be brought vnto him/ and nat in vnthrifty company fall to raylyng, or by sclaunderous bylles blowe abrode an euyll noughtie tale, wherof all the towne may talke, & to theyr owne harme diffame theyr souerayne, whyle hym selfe hall happely nothynge here therof But yet are there some that defende suche euyll fassyon of vnreue- rent raylynge vppon greate personages, affer[Ci]mynge that it shulde do good that suche hyghe estates as be farre from all other fere, may stande yet vnder some drede of diffamacion and sclaunder/ hat lykewyse as the desyre of honoure, prayse, and glory, prycketh hem some tyme forwarde to do good/ so may the fere of infamy, dis- onour, and disprayse, refrayne and restrayne them from euyll, and some tyme holsomely brydle and conteyne them within the limytes and boundes of good and honorable ordre. There nedeth no man to doute, but that as far as sufliseth to that purpose, is prouyded fore ell inoughe/ thoughe noughty personys be not maynteyned in theyr alycyous raylynge. For who so standeth a lofte vpon an hylle of minent hyghe estate, can not in no wyse be hydde/ but as he seeth all the eyen of his people from the valey lokynge vp vppon hym, so seeth he well that neyther dede nor countenaunce almoste that hym selfe may make, can passe vnperceyued and marked. Whyche is inough to make any man regarde hym selfe that any respecte hath toward the prayse and estymacyon of other folke. Whych respecte who so euer lacketh/ no fere of slaundre or drede of dyffamacyon amendeth. Which may percase also be longe spredde farre abrode, ere any man brynge hym worde/ whyle many men abhorre to be demaunded by what meane they knowe that there is any suche rumour abrode, and to be asked who tolde them the tale. And some loue to tell theyr mayster no displeasaunt tydynges/ but when the here many speke euyll, turne of theyr good myndes euery thynge to the beste, and saye to theyr mayster that all the worlde sayth well And fynally yf it fortune hym to here that he be spoken of abrode/ some may therby happen rather waxe wroth then care/ specyally syth he maye make hym selfe sure, that yf suche raylynge speche be suffred to runne at ryotte, be the gouernour as good as god is hym selfe, yet shal he be sure to be shrewdely spoken of/ so redy be lewdd persons malycyousely to rayle and ieste vppon theyr rulers. And so for as mych as vppon raylynge and iestynge vppon any maner of estate, there can no good growe, but many tyme rather mych harme:. yet it is not onely by the comon lawes of thys realme vppon great payne forbyden, that any man sholde with any slaunderouse ray- lynge wordes mysse vse hym selfe toward his prynce/ but also by th playne statut <2de scandalis magnatum>2 sore and streyghtly prohybyted, [Civ] that no man shall slaunderously speke of any noble man in the realme. And myche more is then intol. lerable to suffer any suche ribauldes to the rebuke of and state to put forth any raylynge bokes / whyche malyciouse maner is by all other lawes vppon great payne forboden, though the mater touche a ryght mene persone. And all thys I saye yet/ as though I graunted that the pope had made that lawe that Tyndale here sayth he dyd. But now yf it be false ys Tyndale sayth, & that of trouth the pope made not that lawe, but that the wordes whyche Tyndale reherseth be no law at all, nor spoken nor wryten by any pope, but by some other that was neuer pope/ whatis Tyndale than, that sayth the pope hath made those wordes for a playne lawe? Those wordes whiche Tindale sayth are a playne law made by the pope/ are in dede incorporate in the boke of the decrees, in the same distinccion and place where Tyndale allegeth them. But than is Tyndale very ignoraunt, yf he know not that though there be in that boke of the decrees many thynges that be lawes, & that were by diuers popes and dyuers synodys and counsayles made for lawes/ yet are there in that boke many thynges besyde, that neyther were made by any synode nor by any pope/ but wryten by dyuers good holy men. Out of whose holy workes as well as out of synodys and counsayles and popes wrytynge, Gracyane a good vertuouse and well lerned man, compyled and gathered that boke/ whych is therfore called the decrees of Gracyan, as an other lyke booke is called the decres of Iuo, whyche out of lyke authorytees compyled a lyke worke. Now is euery thynge that is alledged and inserted in the bokes of those decrees, of suche authoryte there, as it is in the place out of whyche Gracian or Iuo gathered it/ and not a lawe nor a thynge made by the pope, but yf it were a lawe or made by a pope before, and out of a lawe or out of a popys wrytynge taken in to the decrees. Now the wordes whyche Tyndale bryngeth forth, and sayth that the pope hath made theym for a lawe, be not the wordes of any pope/ but they be the wordes of the blessed holy martyr saynt Boniface whych brought the fayth in to Almayne, and was for the fayth mar- tyred in Freselande. And so is it playnely specyfyed in the decrees, by those wordes in the rubryce, ex <2dictis Bonifacii martyris.>2 But Tyndale to blynde and begyle the readers wyth/ [Ci] wold make men wene that it were the popys wordes made for a playne lawe. Wherin Tyndale playnely sheweth hys playne open falshed, excepte he were so wyse that he hadde went the pope had made it for a law, by cause it begynneth with <2Sipapa/>2 lyke hym that bycause he redde in the masse boke, <2Te igitur clementissime pater,>2 preched vnto the parysshe that <2Te igitur>2 was saynt Clemens father. The fourth reason. Tyndale. And Poule sayeth Ro. i3. let euery soule obay the hygher powers, that are ordayned to punysshe synne. The pope wyll nat nor let any of his. More. Touchynge fyrste the pope hym selfe, Tyndale telleth vs here a wyse tale. For settynge a syde the questyon whether the pope eyther be or rightfully ought to be, chefe gouernoure ouer the chrysten flocke/ and if he be or ought to be, howe farre than and to what thynges his authorytie stretcheth or ought to stretche: This thynge at the leastewyse Tyndale very well knoweth hym selfe, that neyther in spirituall thynges nor in temporall, there is no man at Rome in his owne see, that claymeth any power or iurisdiccyon vpon hym. And as for the clergye besydes, Tyndale here as farre as I se, falsely belyeth the pope. For he letteth none of his to obay their higher powers/ but by the canon lawes of the churche, commaundeth euery of them to obay theyr hygher powers, and to kepe and obserue the lawes of the princes and countreys that they lyue in. But the thynge that greueth Tyndale is this / that any preest shulde in honoure of the sacramente of preesthode, haue any maner of preuiledge more than a lay man. For his heresye rekeneth euery Woman a preest, and as able to say masse as euer was saynt Peter. And in good faythe as for suche masses as he wold haue sayd, without the canon, without the secretes, Without oblacyon, without sacrifyce, without the body or blode of Christ, with bare sygnes and tokens in stede of the blessed sacrament: I wene a woman were in dede a more mete preest than saynt Peter. And all be it that neyther woman may be preest, nor any man is preest or hath power to say masse, but yf he be by the sacrament of holy orders taken and consecrated into [Civ] that offyce: yet syth the tyme that Tyndale hath begonne his heresyes, and sent his erronyous bokes about, callyng euery chrysten woman a preest: there is nat nowe in some places of Englande the symplest woman in the parysshe, but that she dothe, & that nat in corners secretely but loke on who so woll, in open face of the worlde in her owne parysshe churche/ I say nat here, but say her owne selfe and (leste you hulde loke for some ridle) openly reuested at the hyghe aulter, she sayeth I say her selfe and syngeth to, if it be trewe that I here re- ported, as many masses in some one weke, as Tyndale hym selfe eyther sayeth or hereth in two whole yere to gether/ but if it be han he swereth by it, or hereth some other swere. All holy consecracyons Tyndale calleth folysshe ceremonyes / orgettyng that in the olde lawe dyuers tymes it is honorably re- hersed and layde for a cause of the reuerent vsynge of the prestes person, bycause that the holy oyle is vpon hym. And he lyste nat to remembre that the holy Prophete Dauid, dyd so moche esteme that holy oyntemente with whiche kynge Saule was consecrated, hat all be it he was reiected agayne of god, and hym selfe receyued and anoynted kynge in his place, and was also persecuted by hym/ he nat onely put the man to dethe that sayd he hadde slayne hym for touchinge of goddes anoynted / but also for all that he spared hym and sauyd his lyfe, and beynge his dedely enemye, dyd hym yet no bodely harme. He repented and forthought that he hadde so moche done to hym, as secretely to cutte his garment. These thynges and many suche other lyke whereof the scrypture is full, Tyndale in euery place dissymuleth / and wolde haue all consecracyons sette at nought and taken in dirisyon/ and wolde that no man shulde haue neyther prynce nor preest in any maner reuer- ence the rather of one rysshe for theyr holy consecracyon. But as he wolde haue euery woman to take her selfe for a preest/ so wolde he that euery man shulde wene hym selfe a kynge. For surely the wordes of saynt Peter with whiche these heretykes proue the tone, proue euyn the tother a lyke/ that is to say falsely and folysshely taken, proue bothe the tone and the tother/ but wysely taken and truely, proue neyther the tone nor the tother. [Ci] The fyfte reason. Tyndale. And Paule chargeth.I. Cor. 5. If he that is a brother be an whore keper, a dronkerd, couetous, and extorcioner, or a rayler, and so forth/ that we haue no felowshyppe with hym, no not so myche as to eate in his company. But the pope with violence compelleth vs to haue suche in honour, to receyue the sacramentes of them, to heare theyr masses, and to byleue all they saye/ and yet they wyl not let vs se whether they say trouth or no. And he compelleth.x. paryshe to paye theyr tythes and offerynges vnto one soch, to go and runn at ryot at theyr cost, and to do nought therfore. And a thowsand suche lyke doth the pope contrary vnto Chrystes doctryne. More. To begynne here at the last poynt/ though the partie somtyme that hathe dyuers benefyces dothe abuse the frutes, the pope gaue hym neyther libertie nor lycence that he shulde so do/ but gaue him leaue to take the cure of them, trustynge vpon certayne suggestyon that the man were suche one as shulde and wolde vse them well. And no doubte is there, but that some man may ryghte well haue the cure of dyuers parisshes, and good causes why he so shulde / and do more good in them bothe than some other shulde in one. But as for this poynte Tyndale meaneth moche farther than he speketh/ and entendetn hereafter if it be well alowed concernynge popes and preestes, than to drawe that lyne a lytle longer/ and loke whether he may make the reason stretche a lytle farther, as he hathe done a lytle in some parte of his wryting all redy, whiche we shall answere I truste well ynoughe whan we come ones to the propre places. Nowe where he sayeth that whore kepers and suche other as saynt Poule forbyddeth vs the company, the pope with vyolence compelleth vs to haue in honoure, and to receyue the sacramentes of them, and to here their masses, and to beleue all that that they say: This is a very lowde lye. For the pope letteth you nat to complayne vpon them/ and the lawes of the churche be, that for their crymes they shalbe suspended from the medelynge and adminystracion of suche thynges/ and somtyme deposed of theyr offyces, depriued of theyr benefyces, and degraded of their orders to. And therfore the pope compelleth hym nat with vyolence to do them honoure in their vyces. And if there were [Civ] any that dyd/ he were in the doynge an euyll pope as he were an euyll man. But what were the faute of an euyll pope to the offyce of the papacy/ excepte that Tyndale wyl reproue and rebuke euery kynge and prynce, and wolde haue none at all, bycause that some of them do not alway theyr dewtye/ or wyll lay to the prynces charge yf any offycer vnder hym do not euery an such ryght as the prynce wolde he sholde, and trusteth also that he dothe. Now where he sayth that the pope compelleth hym to byleue all that euery suche preste sayth: ys is yet another lye ones agayne. For yf the preste say false, & preche heresyes/ as yf he wold say that all the seuen sacramentes be but bare sygnes & tokens, & that freres may lawfully wedde nunnes: the pope compelleth no man with violence to byleue that preste / nor compelled not Tyndale neyther agaynste the playne scrypture of god, in suche frantyke heresyes to byleue ys lewd lernyng of Luther, frere Huyskyn, & Denckies, Baltasar, Lambert, and Suinglius/ of all whyche neuer one byleueth other. But the pope is well content & so wold it sholde be, that yf the preste preche suche heresyes, folke shall not byleue hym but accuse hym, and haue hym reformed, & reuoke them, and abiure them / or ellys let degrade hym and delyuer hym, and let the Prynces kepe hym from the people. Wherof to be sure and for auoydynge of such heresyes by the terrour of that ensample/ good chrysten prynces cause faythfull people to burne hym. But then is there one thyng wherwyth Tyndale is sore dyspleased, that the pope wyll not as he sayth let hym and hys felowes se whyther the preste say well or no. If the preste be accused of hys doctryne/ he is as I saye broughte vnto examynacyon, to wytte whyther he sayed trewth or no. What other way wolde Tyndale haue? It is playne inough what he meneth in thys mater. He meneth therin nothynge ellys, but that he wolde haue all thyng so ferforth sette at large, that he myght brynge fyrst in dowte and questyon, and after in errours and heresyes vpon the questyon, euery poynt of Crystes catholike fayth, that god hath by hys holy blessed spyryte in .xv.C. yere taught hys catholyke chyrche. And then all thynges ones brought in that euangely- call liberty, that euery man may byleue euen as hym lyst, and after that lyue euyn as hym lyste to, with out any lorde or any lawe to / then lo to make the [Ci] gospell truely taught, take awaye se all the clergye clene, and let Tyndall sende his women bout the worlde to preche. And nowe good christen reders here haue ye harde all his fyue reasons / by whiche in stede of that he shulde haue proued, that is to wytte that the knowen catholike church of all chrysten people is nat the churche of Christ in erthe, he hathe taken vpon hym to proue (all besyde the purpose) fyrst that the pope and his secte, and after yet farther fro the purpose, that the pope and the spirytualtie be nat the churche. And of that whiche shulde be his purpose, that is to wytte that the knowen catholike church is nat the churche, he hathe nat spokenn one worde. And yet fynally concernynge that he hathe goone about to proue/ touchynge the pope and the spiritualtie/ he commeth forthe as ye se nowe with his fyue reasons that ye haue redde /in the makynge of which fyue reasons, a man may meruayle where were vanysshed a way all his fyue wyttes, for any pece of his oyroise that appereth proued in them all/ but if we reken raylynge for reason and shameles open lyes for good and sufficient proues. And therfore here ende I this boke/ in whiche if Tyndale haue sayd any thinge to the purpose at all, I am content to graunt hym that he hath sayd well in all, and fully proued all to gether. Here endeth the fyfte boke/ and begynneth the syxte, where in is auoyded the solucyons of Tyndale, wherwith he wolde disproue the fyrste reason, prouynge that the knowen catholyke churche is the trewe churche of Chryst. Whiche fyrste reason is that all the sectes of heretykes do come out of the catholyke churche. [Civ] The defence of the fyrst argument agaynste Tyndale. Tyndale. The argumentes wherwith the pope wolde proue hym selfe the chyrche are solued. More. THYS is the tytle of hys chapyter, wherin he descendeth by degrees as ye se, ferther downe from hys purpose thenne euer he dyd before. For where as before in stede of the whole catholyke chyrche, he descended to the clergy alone, whych is but the tone parte: here he leueth all them to/ & maketh as though men called the whole catholyke chyrche no mo but the pope hym selfe/ that is to wytte an whole greate maigne multytude of many sundry states, maners, condycyons, and kyndes, no moo but one man alone. Is not thys gere by Tyndale well and comely deuysed? And yette forthwyth to shewe hys forther constaunce, when he commen to the mater selfe/ he turneth it agayne fro the pope alone, to the whole company of the clergye/ dyssymulyng alway styll the temporaltye, as though there were of them neyther man nor woman of the chyrche. Wher in I wolde haue excused hys one falshed by hys other, and wolde haue sayd that he ment accordynge to hys heresye, that in the clergye were all togyther conteyned, bycause he maketh euery man and euery woman bothe a preste. But that excuse he taketh awaye hym seffe/ and that euyn by & by, when in the next wordes folowynge, he declareth that he speketh of no mo then onely suche as be so shamelesse, that they suffer them selfe to be shauen. For in thys wyse lo the wyse man begynneth. Tyndale. Not wythstandynge bycause as they be all shauen, so they be all shamelesse, to afferme that they be the ryght chyrche/ and can not erre, though all the worlde seeth that not one of them is in the ryght waye. And that they [Di] haue with vttre diffyaunce forsaken bothe the doctryne and the lyuynge of Chryste, and of all his apostels/ let vs se the sophestrye wherewith they wolde perswade it. One of theyr hyghe reasons is this. More. Lo syr here Tyndale affirmeth that lyke wyse as all the clergy be shauen, so they be all shamelesse / & therfore hathe his mayster Martyn Luther let his crowne growe, and lyeth with a nonne to lerne of his lemman some very maydenly shamefastnes. But nat tyll her here was wel growen agayne, ye muste vnderstande/ for she was before for lacke of her heare as shamelesse as Luther ye wote well. But nowe why be all the shauen clergy shamelesse sayth Tyndale? Bycause they affirme that they be the ryghte churche. Nowe whan Tyndale knoweth well that we speke of the catholyke churche. And than here dissimuleth that the clergye so calleth the ryght churche of Christ/ and that they call the hole catholike chyrch nat them selfe alone, but them selfe and the temporaltie to gether, as Tindall may well lerne by euery poore freres prayour ys precheth: eyther hath Tyndale shauen his crowne agayne, or elles is there as god wolde one yet vnshauen as shameles as any that was shauen this seuen yere. But yet whan he goeth farther, and sayeth that all the whole worlde seeth that of the whole clergye beynge all shauen, there is nat one of them all in the ryght waye, but that they haue all euerychone with vttre defiance forsaken bothe the doctryne and the lyuynge of Christe and all hys apostels: I verely beleue in good faythe, that Tyndale shall scantely fynde any one so shamelesse amonge hys owne sorte, that is to say amonge all the sectes of heretykes, but that wyll confesse vppon hys conscyence, that Tyndale here lyeth out of all measure shamefully. And whan he hathe about the profe of thys poynte, bestowed all redy hys whole chapyter afore, wherein he came forth perdy with his fyue egges/ & after a great face made of a great feste, supped them all vp hym selfe without any salte (for all his gestes that he bode to supper, myght smell them so roten that they supped of the sauour). Nowe to come forthe agayne with the same tale, and set vs to the same table at supper agayne, with neyther bredde nor drynke, flesshe, fysshe, nor frute/ This man well declareth vs that thoughe he be nat shauen, but haue his heare [Div] of hys vnshavyn crowne growen out at greate lengthe in despyghte of prestehed, and lyke an Iselande curre lette hange ouer hys eyen/ yet hath the man as myche shame in hys face, as a shotten herynge hath shrympes in her tayle. For surely yf there were any one sparke of shame in his whole body, it wolde sette hys face a fyre to speke amonge chrysten men, that other folke are out of the ryghte waye/ when he woteth well that hys wrytynge sheweth in what wronge waye hym selfe is, how farre fallen frome Crystes holy techynge, wyth hys bestely doctryne, vnder name of matrymony to cowple to gyther freres and nunnes in lechery/ and hys abomynable mockynge of Crystes owne blessed body. But now bycause he speketh of our sophystrye: let vs consyder how substancyally the man soyleth the fyrste reason, that he wolde were rekened so lyghte. And I truste ye shall se that one reason somwhat better then afl hys hole fyue were, which I haue answered in the next boke before. Tyndale. One of theyr hyghe reasons is, The chyrche saye they was before the heretykes, and the heretykes came euer ouy of the cllyrche and lefye it/ & they were before all them whiche they now call heretykes and Lutherans, and the Lutherans came out of them &c. Wherfore they be the ryghte chyrche, and the other heretykes in dede as they be called. Well I wyll lyke wyse dyspute. Fyrste the ryght chirche was vnder Moses & Aaron and so forth, in whose roumes satte the Scrybes & Pharysees and hygh prestes in the tyme of Crist/ and they were before Cryste/ and Cryste and his apostles came out of theym and departed from them and lefte them: wherfore the Scrybes Pharysees & hygh prestes, were the ryght chyrche, and Cryste and his apostles and discyples heretykes and a damnable secte. And so the Iewes are yet in the ryghte waye, and we in errour. And of trouth yf theyr blynde reason be good then is this argument so to. For they be lyke, and are bothe one thynge. More. Now good chrysten reader, thys reason that Tyndale so ryally scoffeth out, wyth a lyke argument of hys owne makynge/ he telleth you not where he redde. But it well appereth that he hath redde it in other mennes bokes besyde myne/ for ellys he wolde not saye one of theyr hyghe reasons, but one of hys hyghe reasons yf he toke the reason but for myne alone. But thys is hys fasshyon lo in all thynges/ he maketh as though he mocke but men of these later dayes/ whyche [Di] latter dayes hym selfe calleth yet eyght hundred yere and more. But he mocketh in dede those olde holy doctours, whiche dyed and some were martyred aboue a thousande yere agone. For ye shall vnderstande that this reason whiche Tyndale so scornefully reherseth, and wolde seme to shake of so lyghtly/ was nat only made by me in my dyaloge, but also before my dayes by dyuers good and great connyng men. And amonge other, thys reason that Tyndale in scorne calleth an hyghe reason/ was made by that great famous doctour and hyghe gloryous martyr saynte Cyprian, agaynste Nouatiane and fortunacian, and other heretykes and scysmatykes, in and before his dayes. Nowe is saynt Cyprian a man of suche authoryte, that the greate holy doctour saynte Austayne, alledgeth as reuerently saynt Cyprian as any man now alledgeth saint Austyne. And thys reason that Tyndale nowe derydeth and mocketh/ saynt Cyprian thought so sure, specially so furnysshed with scryptures as he sette hit forthe, that he vseth it nat ones or twyse/ but in sondry places so often agaynst heretykes, that it maketh me euyn sory to se howe sore god suffred that good saynte to be deceyued, yf an here- tyke myght nowe by a lyke formed argumente so shortely and so shamefully shake hys reason of But I wyll nat do saynt Cyprian so moche dishonour, as to sette hym to dispute with Tyndale. But syth Tyndale and I be somwhat more metely matches, he & I shal therfore betwene vs twayne fyrst dispute and discusse/ and than you good christen reders shall after discerne & iudge, whether the reason that he reherseth and the reason that he maketh, by whiche as by the lyke he wolde fayne seme to soyle it, be as he sayeth they be, bothe lyke and bothe one or not. For the better perceyuynge wherof, ye shall vnderstande that where as in my dyaloge I had proued fyrste that the churche of Christe here in erthe, shall euer endure and contynue as longe as the worlde shall laste / whiche thynge is I doubte nat in suche wyse proued there, that Tyndale dare nat hym selfe denye it here: I than in the seconde boke dyd after proue, that the knowen catholike church is that same churche/ and none of all the sectes of heretykes, by[Div]cause all they be come out of it/ and that therfore all they be but braunches cut of or broken of frome thys vyne of Crystes mystycall body the knowen catholyke chyrche/ & that syth they be from the stocke, they therfore drye vp and wythere awaye, and waxe worth no thynge, nor mete for no thynge but worthy for the fyre. And so thys reason that Tyndale here reherseth, I there laye forth and declare with dyuerse places of scrypture/ by whyche I proue at good length thorow all the seconde chapyter, that suche as go out of thys knowen catholyke chyrche, be and alwaye haue ben the here- tykes, and for heretykes be declared by the very scripture it self Wherof I there lay some places, and some suche as saynte Cypryane layeth hym self/ how be it of trouth not all the places of scrypture that he layeth for that purpose, bycause I had not at that tyme redde and marked saynt Cypryane vpon that poynt. Now commeth Tyndale and barely reherseth my reason, dyssy- mulynge after hys accustumed fasshyon all that euer I layed forth for the profe. Of all whyche thynges neyther in hys answere here whych he calleth hys solucyon, nor afterwarde when he cometh to the place in hys pertycular answerys vnto euery chapyter in order, he neuer maketh any maner mencyon/ but when he cometh to my seconde boke, goeth fro the fyrste chapyter to the thyrde, as though the prenter had lefte the secunde vnprynted. Is not this fashyon a playne confession of his ignoraunce, and that he was at hys wyttes ende, and sawe not what to saye vnto it? And bycause he lefte all my profe of my reason vntouched/ he durst not here for shame speke of my name, nor be a knowen that he redde that reason in my boke/ lest men sholde loke for it, and spye that I hadde so proued it, that Tyndale durst not medle wyth my prouys. How be it sauynge that it hadde bene more wysedome for hym to haue dyssymuled and lette a lone all the whole mater/ els dyd he more wysely then to haue wrestled wyth that chapyter, out of whyche he shall neuer be able to wade whyle he lyueth/ ys reason I am sure is in it selfe so stronge, before made by saynt Cypryane as I sayde and some other mo, other maner men then Tyndale or I be eyther. And in good fayth, I neuer loked that euer I shold haue fownden any man so folysshe as to wene that he were able to soyle it wyth thys argument that Tyndale here [Di] frameth for a lyke/ or that any man were so blynde of wyt as to wene that those two argumentes were lyke. For remembre nowe good reder, that the churche of Christ must as I haue in my dyaloge proued by scripture, laste and contynue for euer, and christes church can be but one. Whervpon it must nedes folowe, that there can none go out of hit to begynne any newe churche of Christe. But those therfore that go out therof, muste nedes be churches of heretykes. Than muste Tyndale if he make his reason, lyke myne make the synagoge of the Iewes lyke to the churche of Christe, in perpetuitie oflastynge and contenuaunce vpon erthe/ or elles shall his argument and hys ensample be as like to myne as I wyste ones a gentyll woman make vnto her husbande, whyche longed sore to teche her and make her perceyue the treatyse of the spere/ & byddynge her consyder well what he shulde shewe her. And fyrste he began at the erthe/ and to make her perceyue that the erthe hangeth in the myddes of the worlde by the payse and weyght of hym selfe, and the ayre compasynge the water and the erthe rounde about on euery syde: ye muste quod he lerne and marke well this, that in the whole worlde hygher and lower, is nothynge elles but vtter and inner/ so that of the whole worlde, erth, water, ayre, and all the speres aboue, beyng eche in a rounde com- pace ouer other, the erthe lyeth in the very myddes, and as we myght say in the wombe, & that is of the whole worlde from euery parte the innermost place/ and from it vpon all sydes towarde the heuen as it is outwarde, so is it hygher/ so that as I tell you in ys whole worlde all is one hygher and more outwarde, lower and more inwarde. And therfore the erthe syth he is in the very myddes, that is the most inwarde place of ys whole world/ he is therfore in the lowest for of the whole worlde / the innest is as I tolde you the lowest. And than syth the erth lyeth in the lowest/ hys owne weyght ye wote well muste nedes holde hym there/ bycause ye perceyue your selfe that no heuy thing can of hym selfe ascende vpwarde. And than the erthe lyenge all redy in the lowest place/ if he shulde fall out of place on any syde, lyke as he shulde fall frome the inner parte to the vtter/ so shulde he fall fro the lower place into the hygher. And that ye wote well it can nat, bycause it is heuy. And therfore ymagen that there were an hole [Div] bored euyn thorow the whole erthe/ yf there were a mylle stone throwen down here on thys syde from our fete, it shulde fynally reste and remayne in the very myddes of the erth. And though the hole go thorow/ yet ye stone could not fall thorow/ bycause that from the myddes as it sholde go outwarde from the innermoste parte, so shold it (whych a myll stone maye not do) ascende hygher from the loweste place/ bycause as I tolde you in the whole whorlde vppon euery syde to go outwarde frome the innermoste, is ascendynge/ & to go inward from the vttermoste, is descendyng/ & euer the vtter parte is on euery syde of the whole round worlde the hygher, and the inner part the lower. Now whyle he was tellynge her thys tale, she nothyng wente about to consyder hys wordes/ but as she was wont in all other thynges, studyed all the whyle nothynge ellys, but what she myghte saye to the contrary. And whan he hadde wyth mych worke and ofte interruptynge, brought at laste hys tale to an ende, well quod she to hym as Tyndale sayth to me, I wyll argue lyke and make you a lyke sample. My mayde hath yender a spynnynge whele/ or els bycause all your reason resteth in the roundenes of the world, come hyther thou gyrle, take out thy spyndle and brynge me hyther the wharle. Lo syr ye make ymagynacyons I can not tell you what. But here is a wharle and it is rounde as the worlde is/ and we shall not nede to ymagyn an hole bored thorow, for it hath an hole bored thorow in dede. But yet bycause ye go by ymagynacyons/ I wyll ymagyne wyth you. Ymagyne me now ys this wharle were tene myle thycke on euery syde, & thys hole thorowe it styll/ & so great that a myll stone myghte well go thorow it: now yf the wharle stode on the tone ende, & a myll stone were throwen in aboue at the tother ende, it wolde go no forther than the myddes trowe you? By god yf one threwe in a stone no bygger than an egge/ I wene yf ye stode in the neyther ende of the hole fyue myle byneth the myddes, it wolde gyue you a patte vpon the pate that it wolde make you clawe your hed, and yet shold ye fele none itche at all. It were to longe a tale to tell you a11 theyr dyspycyons. For wordes wold she none haue lacked, though they shold haue dysputed the space of seuyn yere. But in conclusyon, bycause there is no mo worldes but one wherby he myghte gyue her a trewe sample, nor she could not perceyue the dif[Di]ference bytwene the worlde & the wharle/ but wolde nedes haue them lyke and bothe one, bycause bothe were rounde: her husbande was fayne to put vp hys speere, and leue his wyfe her wharle, and fall in talkynge of some other mater. Nowe playeth Tyndale euyn the same parte with me/ and maketh an argument and a sample of the sinagoge, as lyke to the churche of Chryste for the poynte that we speke of, that is concernynge our sauyour with his apostels goynge out of the synagoge of the Iewes, and chrysten people goynge out of the churche of Christ/ as the wharle was lyke the worlde, concernynge the stone to go thorowe the wharle, & the stone to fall thorowe the erthe, or the whole erthe to fall into the mone whan the sonne were ouer oure hedes and the mone on the tother syde in the contrarye sygne. For I thynke that no man wyll desyre to haue it proued that the chyrche or Synagoge of the Iewys was not ordayned to laste for euer/ but to ceace and gyue place vnto Chryste at hys commynge/ and that he sholde then in stede of the synagoge of the Iewys, begynne and contynue hys chyrche bothe of Iewys and Gentyls/ and that then sholde be of the Iewys peculyar chyrche & peculyar lawes and sacramentes and ceremonyes an ende/ and that the chyrche of Chryst as longe as the world sholde laste, sholde neuer haue ende. Nor no man wyll I suppose desyre to haue it proued, that the chyrche of Chryste can be but one. For these thynges are good reder not onely in euery parte of scrypture so plentuousely proued, but also amonge all chrysten people so playnely byleued & so comenly knowen, that I shall not nede to spende any tyme in the profe. Now these thynges beynge thus/ consyder good chrysten reader how lyke these two reasons are to gyther, Tyndales I mene and myne/ whyche two Tyndale sayth be not onely lyke, but also be bothe one. Chryst and hys apostles and saynt Iohan baptyste went out of the chyrche or synagoge of the Iewys/ bycause the tyme was come in whyche by goddes owne ordynaunce, the Iewys chryche or synagoge sholde haue an ende. And therfore Luther, Tyndale, Huyskyn, and Swynglyus, be gone out of the catholyke chyrche of Chryst, whiche whyle the world endureth, is ordayned of god to haue none ende. Also Chryste & hys apostles went as god had ordayned [Div] out of the olde chyrche to begynne a new/ bycause the olde muste by goddes ordynaunce be lefte of and chaunged. And therfore Luther, Tyndale, Huyskyn, and Suinglius be gone out of the olde chyrche to be gynne a new/ bycause the olde chyrche by goddes ordynaunce, shall neuer be left of in erth, nor neuer no new bygonne. Also Cryst and his apostles went out of the olde chyrch to begynne one new chyrche of all people agreynge in one fayth ether wyth other. And therfore Luther, Tyndale, Huyskyn, and Suinglius, be gone out of the olde chyrch, to begynne a great many new dyuers chyrches, of whych neuer one shold agre with other/ nor almost in any of them any one man wyth other. Fynally Chryste went wyth hys apostles out of the old chyrche to begynne a newe, that was prophecyed to be a perpetuall chyrche wythout ende, agaynste whych the gates of hell sholde neuer preuayle. And Luther, Tyndale, Huyskyn, and Suinglius, be gone out of the olde chyrche to begynne a great many newe, whych are all prophecyed by Chryste and hys apostles to be starke heretykes / & that none of them all shall endure and laste, no more than hath done the chyrches of Arrius, Heluidius, Pelagian, or Manicheus, wyth fourty suche sectys mo. All whome the very gates of hell haue so preuayled agaynste/ that they haue gotten them in and shette them faste in and fast kepe them in wyth the dampned deuels wyth flame and fyre in the depe dongeon of hell. And thus haue I nowe good chrysten readers shewed you so many playne dyfferences bytwene Tyndals reason and myne, whyche twayne he sayeth be bothe one/ that I wene he wyll not shewe you so many dyfferences bytwene hym selfe and a fole/ and yet he wyll not saye that they be bothe one. But now shall you ferther se, that the ferther he wadeth on in hys solucyon, the deper he synketh in to the mudde, and the faster he stycketh in the myre. For lo thus he wadeth on. Tyndale. But in as myche as the kyngedome of god stondeth not in wordes, as Poule sayth.I. Cor. 4. but in power: therfore loke vnto the mary and pyth of the thynges selfe, and let vayne wordes passe. [Ei] More. Very well remembred lo. For there is one dyflerence more bytwene Tyndals reason and myne / whyche dyfference sauynge that Tyndale here putteth vs in remembraunce, I hadde ellys almoste forgoten. And that is, that as he putteth me well in mynde, the kyngedome of god is not in wordes but in power. Now dyd Chryst therfore and hys apostles, proue theyr departynge to be lawfull from the chyrche or synagoge of the Iewys, not by bare wordes onely, but also by myghte and power in workynge of many wonderfull myracles for the profe therof And on the tother syde, Luther, Tyndale, Huyskyn, & Suinglius, proue theyr departynge frome the catholyke chyrche, to be lawfull by bare wordes and babelyng onely, wythout any power of myracles at all. In stede of whyche power to be shewed for them by goddys hande, they haue assayed to gete helpe and power of the deuyll by ys myghte of mannes hande, in raysynge of sedycyon, stryfe, debate, and warre, amonge rebellyouse and vnruly people/ by whyche many a thousande haue bene in few dayes kylled and slayne, and the far moste harme fynally fallen vppon theyr owne heddys. And Suinglius theyr chyefe capytayne vnto whome Tyndale swarued from Luther, bycause his heresye ferther blasphemeth the blessed sacrament/ was taken, slayne, and burned/ and many by that meane returned from theyr heresyes vnto the trewe fayth agayne. And yet god hath not done/ but what harme so euer such heretykes as goddes scourge be suffred to worke for the whyle, hys mercy shall not fayle in conclusyon, both to prouyde for the perpetuall saufgarde of hys catholyke chyrche (whyche he hath promysed neuer to forsake/ but though he vysyt theyr iniquytees wyth the rodde of correccion, yet hys grace and good wyll he hath warraunted neuer to take from theym) and also shall of hys goodnes turne agayne frome theyr errours, some suche as those malycyouse archeheretykes deceyue/ and them whose malyce he shall fynde vncurable he shall as an olde noughty rodde, before the face of hys faythfull chyldren of hys catholyke chyrche, when he hath beten and corrected them therwith, do as the tender mother doth, breke ys rodde in peces & caste it in the fyre. But nowe shal you se how Tindale goth forth, & declareth his solucion. [Eiv] Tyndale. Vnder Abraham, Isaac, and Iacob, was the chyrche greate in fayth and small in numbre. And as it encreased in numbre, so it decreased in fayth vntyll the tyme of Moses. And out of those vnbeleuers god stered vp Moses, and brought them vnto the ryght fayth agayne. And Moses left a gloryous chyrche, and in fayth and cleauynge vnto the worde of god / and delyuered them vnto Iosuah, Eleazer, Phineas, and Caleb. But as soone as the generacyon of them that sawe the myracles of god were dede / they fell to idolatrye im- medyatly, as thou seyste in the byble. And god when he hadde delyuered them into captyuyte for to chastyse theyr wekednesse/ stered them vp a prophete euer more, to call them vnto hys testament agayne. And so he dyd well nye an hundred tymes I suppose yer Chryst came/ for they neuer bode any space in the ryght fayth. And agaynste the comynge of Chryste, the scrybes Pharysees, Caiphas, Anna, and the elders, were crepte vp in to the sete of Moses, Aaron, and the holy prophetes and patriarkes and succeded them linyally, and had the scrypture of god but euyn in captyuyte, to make mar- chaundyce of it and to abuse it vnto theyr owne glorye and proyft. And though they kepte the people from outwarde idolatrye of worshepyng of images with the Hethen: yet they broughte theym in to a worse inwarde idolatrye of a false faith & trust in theyr own dedes, and in vayne tradycions of theyr own faynynge. And they hadde put out the sygnyfycacyons of all the ceremonyes and sacra- mentes of the olde testament, and taught the people to byleue in the workes selfe/ and had corrupte the scrypture with fals gloses. As thou mayest se in the gospell, how Chryste warneth his discyples to be warre of the leuen of the Pharises, whyche was theyr false doctryne and gloses. And in an other place he rebuked the scrybes and the pharises, sayenge: wo be to them, bycause they had taken awaye the keye of knowlege, and had shut vp the kyngdome of heuen, and neyther wolde entre in them selues nor sufre them that wolde. How had they shut it vp? verely wyth theyr tradycyons and false gloses whyche they had sowed to the scrypture in playne places/ and in the takynge away the meanynge of the ceremonyes and sacryfyces, and teachynge to byleue in the worke. More. Tyndale hath here made vs a longe dyscourse frome Abraams dayes vnto Chryste shewynge that euer in tyme fayth hath decayed. But he myghte for ys purpose haue bygonne at Adam a greate deale a fore Abraam/ and ende at the daye a dome a great whyle after Chryste. Now it is no newe thynge amonge mo people to haue mo taught. But what auayleth Tyndale all thys tale/ proueth it any other but that yetthat company was styll, the chyrche [Ei] contynued on from the begynnyng vnto the byrth of Chryst as saynt Austayne ordrely deduceth by a seryouse goodly processe, in hys booke of the cytye of god? Now that many tymes god punysshed them/ so doth he now, & hys mercy alwaye wyll, when hys wysedome seeth it necessary. What of all thys? Ye sayth Tyndale but he rered vp alwaye prophetes in dyuerse tymes, an hundred to turne theym home in to the ryght waye agayne. Be it that he sent so many / what helpeth thys vnto Tyndals mater? For well we wote that all the fautes of the people for whyche they were punysshed, and agaynst whyche god sent so many prophetes to prech, were not euer more idolatrye/ but somtyme other synnes, & specyally the synne of the flesshe for whych the hole world was wesshed wyth Noes floode to purge the fylth therfro/ and Sodome and Gomor burned vp wyth brymstone for the foule synne of the flesshe agaynst ye nature of the flessh. And now god wyll I fere fynde out yet some newe more horryble turment to punisshe and reueng the fylthy stynke of the flesshely caryn, that hath caste his contagyouse corrupcyon so farre agaynste god hym selfe, that freres brekynge theyr vowys and wedded wyth nonnys, be so shamelesse to bycome prechers, & fynde wreched bestely people to bere it, and be content therwyth. But now that god raysed vp so many prophetes to call the people home/ what fyndeth Tyndale for hys purpose therin? Fyndeth he that god raysed any suche as Luther, Suinglius, Huysken, and hym selfe, that to call men from lechery become lechours, and abyde therby and to call men from erroure become heretykes, & exhorte men to heresye? Dyd god sende any suche? Yf he dyd, lette Tyndale tell vs one. If he dyd not/ wherof serueth hys processe of his hundred prophetes? Also god punysshed his people/ and then sent his prophetes, not to make sedycyone and sectes amonge hys people, but to gouerne and lede hys whole flocke and hys whole people to gether. As he caused Moyses to conuaye hys hole people out of Egypte/ and the other prophetes, iudges, & prestes after, in to the lande of byheste. Was there euer any of those heretykes whom the catholyke chyrche hath from the begynnynge condempned, that euer so dyd? Let Tyndale name vs one. [Eiv] Then yf he wyll saye that euery prophete dyd not so, but some dyd as he doth and suche other as we call heretykes, as wrongfully as yf we called an ew a shepe/ that is to saye they dyd call vppon the people, and wynne in some agaynste the mynde of the multytude and of the prestes & prynces: I saye that those prophetes agreed in theyr fayth and preched a lyke, and then can not Tyndale and hys companyons whome we call heretykes, be any suche prophetes sent vs by god, sythe of these neuer one agreeth wyth an other. Besydes thys, those olde prophetes proued them self by myracles to be messengers sent frome god. But Luther, Tyndale, Huyskyn, and Suinglius, shew no myracles at all to shew them selfe messengers sent by god but by theyr euyll doctryne clerely proue them selfe messengers sent by the deuyll. And fynally as farre as the chyrche or synagoge of the Iewys was decayed in fayth, or good lyuynge decayed by the false doctryne or false gloses of the scrybes and pharysees, Cayphas, Anna, and thelders/ whyche were as Tyndale sayth crepte vp in to the seate of Moyses, Aaron, and the holy prophetes and patryarche agaynst the commyng of Chryste/ and whom Chryste for theyr false doctryne dyd rebuke: yet confesseth Tyndale hym selfe, that they kepte the people frome outwarde idolatrye of worshyppynge of idols wyth the hethen. And Tyndale muste confesse ferther, that neyther scrybes nor pharysees, nor preste, nor elders, as he calleth them no nor yongers neyther yf he wyll haue all the temporalty called yongers, as he wyll haue all the clergy called elders/ were not euyn at yt tyme all of one sorte/ but as there were many naughte of euery sorte, so was there of euery sorte ryght good folke also. And as for theyr tradycyons and doctryne, of whyche was many vayne, some euyll & some superstycyouse, wherby the people amonge them toke harme in the folowynge: suche as were euyll thynges were not so fully determyned but that some were of one mynde some of other/ and therin men myghte folowe the beste doctryne yf they wolde, wher in they had doctours and teachers to/ and myghte yf they were desyrouse of the beste, very well decerne them concernynge the glosyng of scrypture, by the olde vertuouse doc[Ei]tours that had in sondry ages longe before the false exposicions and false doctrine of the phariseis or false scribes began, truely constred and expowned bothe the law & the prophetes/ by whose exposicions they myght trye and controll the false doctrine of the noughty scribes & euyll phariseis (for good scribes were there and good phariseis to/ as by the newe testament appereth). And that there were of olde in euery age suche trewe doctours and expositours amonge the Iewis, maye well appere to euery man that considereth the varyaunce in the exposicions of the scripture, by the Iewis that were of olde before the byrthe of Christ, and theym that expowned it after. And also Tyndale saith hym selfe, that betwen the tyme of Moyses and the cummynge of Christe/ god styred vppe an hundred prophetes. And therfore I am sure of the remenaunt besyde the .xii. that we haue, he meneth for some, that kinde of doctours and expositours that I speke of/ or elles I wene he wyll cum shorte of his whole summe, and lacke fyue of his hundred. And thus thoughe god dyd nat prouide so fully for the chyrche of the Iewis, as for the chyrche of Christe/ as in whiche he hathe pro- uided and promised to dwell hym selfe for euer: yet prouided he for it so sufficiently, that they myght therin be saued and entre heuen when it were after open/ and that in euyll doctrine and supersticiouse traditions, they coulde nat be dampned, if they were desirouse & diligent about theyr owne soule helthe. And al be it that bycause the thynge had than so great diflicultie, that many for lacke of suf- ficient diligence perisshed: god of his great mercy suffred not those noughty scribes & false phariseis to continue long/ but to make an easy way in which no man coulde be deceiued excepte suche as were ouer necligent or maliciouse, but shulde sone be lerned the sure truthe and vndoubted way to heuyn, sent his owne sonne to begynne a new chyrche of a new fasshion, of a nother maner of perfection/ in whiche he wolde so be present and assistent for euer hym selfe and his owne holy spirite, and so teche it and so lede it into euery trouthe, that no man coulde be deceiued, but he that wold nat byleue his chirch/ and he wolde make his chirche so open and so well knowen, that no man coulde but know hit, excepte suche as of malice wolde nat knowe hit. And yet as I say, tyll hym selfe [Eiv] dyd set vp his chyrche/ the sinagoge was the very chyrch/ and with suche as were nat wyllyngly blynde, was knowen for the very chyrche of god diuided from all the world byside, by goddes law, by gouernours of his assignement by trewe prophetes, trewe precheours and miracles, for all the false prophetes and false precheours that were therein byside. And the right faithe was lerned no where els. And who so had gone out of that chyrcli except onely into Christes/ hadde gone wronge. And thus it appereth lo, that concernyng the synagoge euyn at the comynge of Chryst/ Tyndale hath here wonne lytell grounde to buylde hys purpose vppon/ but that euen there was yet at that tyme the very chyrche and a chyrche also knowen. And therfore when he goth now ferther and resembleth it vnto the knowen catholyke chyrch of Chryst though they were lyke: yet were Tyndale ouer- throwen. But now when ye shall here the remanaunt ye shall se Tyndale fall euer deper and deper in the myre. For lo thus crepeth he forwarde lyke a crabbe. Tyndale. In lyke maner is the clergye crepye vp in to the sete of Chryste and his apostles by succession/ not to do the dedes of Chryste and his apostles, but for lucre onely/ as the nature of the wyly foxe is to gete hym an hole made with an other bestes labour, and to make mer- chaundyse of the people wyth fayned wordes, as Peter warned vs before/ and to do accordynge as Chryste and all his apostles pro- phecyed, how they sholde begyle and lede out of the ryghte waye all them that dyd not loue to folow and lyue after the treuth. More. Tyndale here good reader playnely confesseth hym selfe, that the clergye be those whiche (though he call it crepyng) be by successyon here in erth comen into the seate of Chryst and hys apostles. Now can not Tyndale nor wyll not I wote well saye naye, but that whyle Chryste entended not that hym selfe and hys apostles sholde for euer personally dwell styll here in erth conuersaunt wyth vs in lyke maner as they were whyle they lyued here among vs / and yet entended that hys chyrche here in erthe sholde alwaye haue amonge them techers and prechers / syth he entended that hys chyrche sholde as Tyndale agreeth as longe laste in erthe as the worlde sholde endure/ & none other hath there ben had synnys Chrystes dayes and hys apostles in chrystendome, but the clergye by contynuall suc- cessyon: then [Ei] hath euer the clergye of euery age bene that parte of Chrystes very chyrche, to whome Chryste specyally spake, speketh, and euer shall speke these wordes, Go ye and preche the gospell to all creaturs. And also these wordes: who so hereth you hereth me / and who so dyspyseth you dyspyseth me. And these wordes also, who so receyue you receyueth me/ and what so euer cytye receyue you not, Sodome and then that cytye in the daye of iugement. And also sithe they must be the techers/ it foloweth that they be & must be that parte of his chyrche, to which parte these wordes were also specyally spoken: I shal sende you the holy goost whiche shall teche you all trewthe and lede you into euery trouthe / and I am with you my selfe vnto the worldes ende. For though god in these wordes promised to sende his spirite, nat into the clergy onely but into his whole catholique chirche/ nor to be with his clergy onely, but also with his whole catholique chirch/ nor to lede his clergy only into euery trouth, but the lay peple of his chirch also: yit sith he prouided specially the clergye to be the prechers, of whose mouthe the lay people shulde here the trouthe/ by meane of which herynge with theyr owne good endeuour, god wold hym selfe wryte it in the herers hartes/ whiche ordre of cum- mynge to the faith appereth plainely, by sundry places of holy scripture / as where saint Paule sayth, aith is made by herynge. And how shall a man here without prechyng/ And how shall a man preche but yf he be sente to preche? And than that a man must at the heryng do his own good endeuour, Christe saith, Be thou nat an vnbileuer but a byleuer. And that he than writeth hym selfe in the hart witnesseth the prophete Ierem . I shal write m law in theyr hartes. In which place he sayth spekynge of the chirch of Christ, Euery man shall nat teche his neighbour, but they shall all be the scholers of god, and I shall write my lawe in theyr hartes: he meaneth nat that there shall be no prechynge, for that were ye wote well contrary to the wordes of saynt Paule/ but he meneth therby the techynge whiche the precher techeth, Without whiche sainte Paule sheweth that they can nat ordinarily cum to the faithe, is yit no techyng wherof any frute can cum/ but if god therwith write vpon the hert, whiche he neuer faileth to do yf the party do [Eiv] hys parte, and be not by hys neglygence or frowardenesse the lette. And all be it that these wordes of the prophete be specyally spoken for the dyfference, bytwene the olde law that was called the lawe wryten, bycause that Moyses receyued and delyuered the lawe by wrytynge/ and the new law wherof Chryste neyther receyued nor delyuered any parte by wrytynge: yet maye those wordes well serue for thys purpose also, syth the trouth of them is also in thys poynt veryfyed / to whych trouth saynt Poule subscrybeth, where he sayth that no man can say and confesse our lorde Iesus but by the holy gooste. Now these thynges I saye beynge thus, though god wryte in the hartes of euery sorte of hys catholyke chyrche as well the laye people as the clergye, as well women as men, and so teche them inwardly and lede them into euery necessary trouth: yet syth the precher muste haue it ere he preche it/ and muste preche it ere the herer here it/ and the prechers by Chrystes order muste be, or at the leste wyse by Tyndals owne confessyon in dede be thorow chrystendom none but the clergye/ nor of trouth hyther to none but the clergye haue be, nor as appereth by many playne places of scrypture none but the clergye maye be the ordynary mynystres of goddes holy wordes and sacramentes vnto the people / it muste I saye vppon Tyndals confessyon nedes folow that of all the wordes of god before remembred, whyche so euer our sauyour sayed vnto hys whole chyrche, yet euer he sayd it pryncypally to the clergye and so by Tyndals owne confessyon, syth that the clergy be the successours of Chryst and hys apostles / and be for the gouernaunce of Chrystes chyrche now in hys and his apostles place: Tyndale is bounden by Chrystes worde to receyue them, here them, and obaye them. And in that he wyll not so do, but in stede of receyuynge them refuseth them, in stede of herynge them mocketh them, and in stede of obayenge them despyseth them and persecuteth theym, and teacheth hys false heresyes contrary to the treuth that Chryste hath by hys holy spyryt accordyng to hys owne promyse taught them: he is fallen I saye into the maledyccyon & curse of Chryst, that hath ordeyned them/ and on Tindals hed falleth that ferefull worde of Cryste, He that hereth you hereth me, and he that despyseth you despyseth me/ and he that hereth not [Fi] the chyrch, take hym for a publicane & a very painym / and in better case shall odome and Gomor be, than he shall at the day of Iugement. And thus hath Tyndale denounced his owne dampnacion hym selfe, plainely pursuynge vpon his owne confession. Now if Tindale wyll paraduenture say, that it is in the clergy now as it was in the scribes & phariseis in Christes tyme/ and that as they and that people were than fallen from the trewthe into false errours, so be now the clergy and the christen peple: I haue all redy shewed him the plaine scriptures, in which god hath made many suche plentiouse promises of his assistence with his holy spirite in his chyrche, perpetually to kepe it from all dampnable errours, by techynge it and ledynge it into euery trouth/ that though he suffre many great piecis of people to fall out therof, and so lytle & litle the body to be minisshed & made a small flocke in comparison, till his pleasure shalbe to increace it againe yet shall he neuer neither suffer it to be distroyed/ nor the flocke that remaineth how many braunches so euer the deuyll blow of, to be brought vnto the scarcite either of faithe or vertue, that the sinagoge of the Iewis was at Christes cummynge/ though there neuer was any tyme long to gether, nor neuer shall there be/ but that in Christes chyrche as longe as it dwelleth in erthe there shalbe many nought, yit shall ,o alway the doctrine of his chyrche with which hym selfe hath alway promised to be, & lede it into euery trouth, be so good and so sure, that vnto those that shall be well wyllynge to lerne the trouthe, it shall alwaye be knowen where they may lerne it/ & that for the clerynge of all doubtes and auoidyng of all errours, it shal euer be trew to say that the chyrch is as saint Paule saith, the pylar & the tote or grounde/ that is to say the sure strengthe or fastenynge of the trouthe. And this chyrche must be that knowen catholique chyrche/ of whiche from age to age the scripture hath ben receiued, and the people taught/ and not a chyrche vnknowen of onely good men or electes onely, in whiche is neither precher nor people assembled to preche vnto, nor sacra- mentes ministred by any man as a ministre of that vnknowen chyrche, nor people of an vnknowen chyrch to ministre them vnto/ among whom can be no suche assemble/ for no man can know where to call a nother, nor how to know another yf they cam to gyther by happe. [Fiv] And thus I saye that neyther can Tyndale stande by hys vnknowen chyrche, nor for his purpose suffycyently resemble the catholyke chyrch of Cryst vnto ys synagoge of ye Iewys, nor the clergye of the tone to the scrybes and pharyseys of the tother/ syth god gaue these two chyrches not lyke begynnyng/ nor Moyses that was the lawyere & begynner of the tone, was not lyke vnto Crist the begynner & lawyer of the tother/ nor the promyses of god concernyng his assys- tence & preseruynge, were not lyke in the tone chyrche & the tother. And yet by Tyndale, god had so lytell regarded his great promises in that point, that where as the scrybes & pharyseis had ben but a whyle in respecte, & god had sent the synagoge sundry prophetes, & Cryst hasted to come because they shold not deceyue longe: god had suffred ys catholyke chyrch of his own onely bygoten sonne to be as falsely deceyued & wurse to, & ferther to be ledde out of the ryght way into errours & into dampnacyon, more then this viii.C. yere togyther, without any man sent to shewe them the ryght vnder- standyng of scrypture & the ryght way, by any such mene as the peple myghte perceyue that the man were comen from god/ but one of them alway varyenge fro the doctryne of an other and all varyenge fro the doctryne of all the sayntes, whom god had proued hys mes- sengers by myracles/ wherof these men shewed none at all, and yet the moste parte euer as they were examyned and oppossed, abiured theyr owne doctryne to. And thus as I saye Tyndale can not resemble the clergye of Crystes chyrche to the scrybes and pharyseys of the Iewys chyrche. But yet yf Tyndale stycke so sore thereto, that he wyll nedes haue theym lyke/ and whyle he can neuer proue it, wyll yet wyth greate wordes and othys happely to, bere me downe ryght styll in hande it is so: let vs to stoppe his mouth with, graunte hym for thys onys that it were so/ & se than what he coulde yet gete therby, that for his purpose were well worth a flye. Though it so were in dede / yet must Tyndale be bounden to obaye theym perde, as ferforth at the leste as Chryste commaunded the Iewys to obaye the tother. Than yf Tyndale wyll saye that it can extende no ferther, then euen barely to as farforth as they teche & preche the gospell truely/ and that euery man and woman whom they teche and to whom they preche, maye saye not onely [Fi] to one of them that he constreweth the scrypture wronge & techeth the people false, but also that the same techynge of that one man beynge examyned and affermed for trewe by the whole clergye assembled to gyther, ye and by the prynces and the lordes, and by bothe the lerned and vnlerned laye people to, maye yet tell them vppon Tyndals mouth or Luthers, that they lye euerychone / & all the clergy falsely constreweth the scrypture, and all the temporaltye folysshely foloweth theyr con- struccyon/ and so the tone blynd wyth malyce ledeth the tother blynde wyth foly into the dych of dampnacyon/ and there they lye tomblynge to gyther, whyle thys lyghtsome elect of Tyndale that shall tell all the chyrche thys tale, seeth playnely the trouth/ and is illumyned by Luther, Tyndale, frere Huyskyn, or Suynglius, and lawgheth the foly of all the knowen catholyke chyrche to scorne: yf Tyndale come to thys poynt, he wyll at the leste wyse euer gyue vs leue to resorte to the Iewys synagoge, wyth the scrybes and the pharyseys, to whyche he resembleth vs. Now let vs thenne ymagyne that Tyndale as he was borne hethen and chrystened in England, so had ben borne a paynyme & cyrcum- cysed in Hierusalem, foure yere before the byrth of Christ, by the reason that beyng at yeres of dyscrecyon, & heryng of the stories & the temple & maners of ys Iewys, he had of deuocyon sodaynly fallen into theyr synagoge, and dwelled in Hierusalem/ wheruppon yet after hys cyrcumcysyon consyderynge that there were amonge them dvuers sortes & sectes, as pharyseys and Saduceys, and scrybes and leuytes, and prestes, and laye people / and though they were all Iewes and agreed in cyrcumcysyon, and came of olde all of one stocke, yet be now seuered a sunder in doctryne and in bylyefe, and that not in small thynges but in suche thynges as the one secte dyd reken and accompte the tother to stande in greate errour and damp- nable: what wolde Tyndale haue done in thys case? wold he wythout any other reder haue taken the bokes of theyr scryptures into hys owne hande/ and therof wythout any credence gyuen vnto any man, pyke out the trouth by hym selfe? he sholde haue therin a very hard worke/ and were very lykely to frame hym selfe a newe fayth in many great thynges, agreyng wyth no man but wyth hym selfe. Then shal he fynde also dyuers counsayles ln the same scriptures, [Fiv] forbedynge hym that folysshe proude fasshyon of study & lernynge/ and byddynge hym that he shall not lene vnto hys owne wyte. Then wold he of lykelyhed haue had recourse to them, and enquere of them the solucion of those dowtys. For out of the chyrche or synagoge of the Iewys, it is not lykely ys euer he wolde haue loked to haue ys treuth of those dowtes determyned, whyche dowtes ryse vppon theyr lawe and vpon the construccyon of theyr scryptures. And also consyderynge the myracles that god hadde so greate and so many very oftentymes shewed in euery age for that synagoge, and that in that synagoge some contynued styll, suche as hym selfe had sene in the pole of the temple seruyng for the sacryfyce: he myght styll haue thought that in the synagoge of the Iewys, bothe had bene & then were yet, the very trewe waye both of bylyefe and lyuyng, and in none other chyrche. And then coulde he not dowte but that in ys same synagoge, were some good folke alwaye that had the very treuth/ of whyche parte of that synagoge yf he myghte happen, he sholde surely know the trouth. Now semeth me that it shold haue ben no great maystry for hym then to fynde them out. For it is no dowte but that yf he sholde haue taken vnto hym suche as were called cunnynge, twayne at onys at good laysoure, one on the tone syde and an other of the tother/ as for ensample on the tone syde the proude pharasy that dyspysed the publycane, and on the tother syde Gamalyell: now where as the proude pharasey wold haue tolde hym for hys part, we haue with vs mayster Tyndale of the scrybes and the pharyseys the more parte, and we haue men of honeste and good lyuyng, and well lerned in the lawe and in the scrypture, and that are also the rulers/ and therfore it is moste reason in the construccyon of the scrypture, and the fayth and maners dependynge theruppon, ye sholde byleue vs: Gamalyell wolde haue tolde hym agayne, ye M. Tyndale/ but I am a pharysey as well as he/ and there are on our syde though not so many, yet pharyseys and scrybes and rulers of the peple to, bothe as good, as honeste and as well lerned also, bothe in the lawe and in the scryp- ture, as the beste of all them be. And where he can not hym selfe saye that hys part passeth vs by nothynge but by nomber/ I shall proue you that in the nomber selfe they be farre fewer then we/ and that yet [Fi] besydes that, we farre passe them in thynges of farre greater wayghte. For M. Tyndale as late as ye were cyrcumcysed, yet this wote ye well your self/ or at the leest wise ye thynk it is so that god hath stired vp among vs syns the time of Moises almoost an hundred prophetes. And surely he hath styred vp very many/ of whom besyde the.xii. that are accompted in parte of our scripture, we haue many of sundry ages passed, in whose bokes we fynd wryten expositions &  commentes vppon our scriptures/ and those men were good & holy men/ & for whome god shewed many greate miracles, and for none of our aduersaries he neuer shewed one. And in theyr olde bokes fynde we that in the pointes for which these men and we vary now a dayes, those olde prophetes and interpretours of the scripture were of the mynde that we be, and the people of theyr tymes to, till that these men of the tother side brought in this newe doctrine whiche is vntrewe, but euyn now of late in comparison of the longe tyme in whiche the contrary was taught by holy men, and bileued by the people afore. So that this beynge wayed & considered/ we passe them in nombre, tyme, and miracles/ that is to say beside the lengthe of tyme and the nombre of men, we passe theyr parte by one whose eternitie passeth all tyme, & whose infinitie passeth all nombre, that is almighty god hym selfe/ which hath for thexpositours of our part, many times by miracles declared his fauour against those that ex- powne the scripture on theyr parte, for whom he neuer shewed none. For as for the myracles don in the emple, or in the temple pole, they can nat draw to theyr parte agaynst vs / sithe they be nat shewed to declare the trouthe of any particular man/ but onely to gyue know- ledge that the chyrche or sinagoge of the Iewys, is the chyrche of god here in erthe/ in whiche as well we as they, that is to wyt as well the trew as the false, as well the good as the bad be for the while to gyther, tyll Messias come that shall make a new chyrche, a greater and a better/ and the trew from the false moche better knowen to. I doubte nat but Tyndale shulde at that tyme amonge the Iewis in Ierusalem haue herd his doute disputed and debated thus. And than coulde he nat with any good reason haue douted, but that the false phariseis had ben well [Fiv] answered by the trew/ and so shulde he haue knowen euyn than of the very chyrche there, whiche parte he shulde haue bileued, though the thing had sum difliculty there, bicause the sundry sectes abode styll to gyther/ but yit the continuaunce and succession of the trouthe from the begynnynge, shulde into that darkenes haue cast a metely good light. Now yf Tindale wyll here denye me and say that there were no suche holy men of them, that from age to age lefte any suche bokes behynde theym: when so euer he so shall answere me, he shall then here what I shall saye more vnto hym. But as for thys tyme I shall not nede to let therfore. For though there had not bene suche in dede, nor that Tyndale coulde not haue harde any man in Hierusalem at that tyme, that coulde haue told hym that tale & proued his tale trew: yet shal Tindale neuer be able to withstand it, but that yf it had ben so answered and so proued, he had ben than well and wyth good reason satysfyed. Agaynste whyche yf he hadde not rebelled, but endeuored hym selfe for hys owne parte to be plyable to the trouth/ god sholde haue wrought wyth hym into the full consent and bylyefe therof Now saye I than, that syth that answere yf it myghte haue bene proued trewe, sholde & of reason ought, to haue contented Tyndale at that tyme in Hierusalem, concernyng the chyrch of the Iewys: he shall neuer auoyde it here, but that in the nowen catholyke chyrche of Chryste though we leue of the promyses of god made vnto thys chyrche, by whyche promises it appereth clerely that he wyll neuer suffer it to come to suche a confusyon or dyffycultye/ yet yf it dyd and were in that poynt lyke vnto the chyrch that the Iewys had agaynste the commynge of Chryste, infected by many false folke wyth false doc- tryne, and the scrypture adulterate and viciate wyth false gloses and wronge exposycyons/ and that they whyche so hadde marred all, were crepte vp in to the place of Chryste and hys apostles, and were waxen a greate deale the more parte of those that had the authoryte in theyr handes/ and therby had mysse ledde the people bothe in to wronge bylyefe and wronge wayes of lyuynge / makyng them to wene that they dyd well when they dyd nought: yf it were I saye comen in the catholyke chyrch euyn vnto this poynt/ whyche thynge god kepyng hys promyses afore remembred were more then tWyse impos[Fi]sible to happen/ yet yf it so were in dede as Tyndale lyeth and falsely sayeth it is, yet vnto folke that longe to know the trouth, it could nat be but perceyued easyly whiche doctrine were the troethe/ that is to wyt whyther theyrs that thus were crepte vp and had falsely taught, or elles suche trew men as wold rebuke and reproue them/ and teche the people the contrary, and constre the scripture otherwyse. Wherby shuld it be perceyued wyll sum man say? surely well, and playnely by this way. God hathe sythe the dethe of Christe and his apostles, styred vp in his knowen catholique chyrche I dare well say, many mo than an hundred prophetes / whom he hath with moo than a thousande myracles declared to be his messangers. Now of these holy doctours and prophetes we haue the bookes of euery age, sum frome the dethe of Christes apostles euyn vnto our owne tyme. Now myght it than by theyr bokes be perceyuyd, that these folke now crept vp as Tyndale sayeth by succession into the place and sete of Christ and his apostles, as the scrybes and pharyseys were at Christes cummynge crepte vp into the sete of Moyses/ dyd in doctrine & exposicion of scripture, agree with those olde holy doctours and prophetes of euery age and tyme/ or els contempned and contraryed them, and in fayth and lyuynge began a new dyuerse & contrary doctrine of theyr owne, in thynges necessary to saluacion, or peryllouse toward dampnacion. And than yf they so dyd, and that there cam other that wolde call men home from theyr euyll doctryne and from theyr false exposicions of scripture wherevpon the false doctrine dependeth, vnto the olde doctryne and olde trew declaracion of scripture/ in whiche those old holy doctours/ and as saynt Paule sayth prophetes vpon scripture, dyd consent & agree: by this marke I say myght it be perceyued & knowen, whither parte were the trewe, & whither parte were the false. Let vs now than settyng for ys whyle all other markes a syde, of whiche there are very many: let vs I say consyder but this marke alone/ for euen this marke alone shalbe suflicient to dyscerne & know the chyrch now for the trew part, and Tyndale and Luther and all theyr sectes for the very playne false. For albe it that Luther in the begynnynge professed in hys wry- tynge, that he wolde stande for the profe of hys doc[Fiv]tryne, vnto the tryall of those olde holy doctours and prophetes of euery age/ wenynge that men for the delyght of the newe schole maters, neg- lected the olde holy doctours, and lysted not to loke vppon them:. yet when he sawe hym selfe deceyued, & hys deuelysh doctryne by the wrytyng of ye old holy sayntes of euery age brought out on euery syde, vtterly throwen downe & ouer whelmed/ then began he to chaunge his tale and swarue from them, & set theyr authoryte clere at noughte, and wrote that he cared not for tene Austayns, nor for an hundred Hieroms/ nor for as many saynt Cypryanys. For he sayd he was sure that he had hys doctryne from heuyn / and that the scrypture what so euer all they sayed, was playne and clere for hym. And thus though some of these folke be glad to catche a patche of an olde sayntes sayenge somtyme, yf they may mangle it and make it seme to serue any thynge for them: yet maye ye clerely perceyue by theyr mayster Martyn Luther hym self, that they can not say nay them selfe, but that the consent of the olde holy sayntes, is wyth the catholyke chyrche, playne agaynste theyr deuelysh doctryne. And thys poynt them selfe so clerely perceyue to be perceyued and knowen/ that they begyn to make in a maner mockes openly/ and gyue the people counsayle to gyue lytle credence to the olde holy sayntes wrytynges/ & they scoffe at them that agaynste suche heresyes alledge them/ and in thys maner they ieste and saye in theyr sermons: men laye forth now a dayes vnto you for the profe of theyr doctryne the olde sayntes, and call them fathers/ but we laye for our doctryne the Euangelistes, and apostles, and Chryste hym selfe/ and these be graundfathers. And therfore as they cry vnto you fathers fathers, we crye vnto you graundfathers graundefathers whyche are myche more to be byleued then those fathers. Here is lo a goodly false folysshe fallace, to begyle the poore vnlerned people/ wyth turnyng theyr myndes from the poynt that is in questyon, and make them gase & muse vppon an other thynge/ and wene that the clergye wolde haue them thynke, that the old holy doctours were more to be byleued then Chryste and hys apostles them selfe. Where as in dede the questyon standeth in thys, whyther the olde holy doctours and sayntes whome we call the fathers, be better to be byleued in the construccyon and the [Gi] vnderstandynge of Chryste and hys apostles and the olde prophetes to, whom we be content that these men call graundfathers and great graundfathers to/ or els these yong new naughty nephews, that make them selfe graciouse, godly, and wyse, ys they can tell all thynge from afore the worlde was wrought, & theyr fathers so gracelesse & so folysh, that they neyther had grace, lernynge, nor wyt to perceyue any thyng at all, what ys wrytyng of theyr graundfathers ment. Also that these folkes doctryne can not agre wyth the olde holy doctours/ appereth playn, by thys that these men teche & renew the self same old roten heresyes, whych those holy doctours by theyr full consent & agrement condempned, both in great assembled counsayls, & by theyr owne bokes seuerally made agaynst them, as agaynst theyr heresies ys they now teche agaynst fre wyll, agaynst presthed, agaynste penaunce, agaynst ys other sacramentes, agaynst vowes, agaynst holy dayes, & fastynge dayes, & specyally the lent, agaynst generall counsayls, & agaynste the catholyke chyrche and many an other abomynable heresy besyde. Of this consent of the holy doctours & sayntes agaynste theyr heresyes, cometh this enuy & hatred that these heretykes bere vnto them all agayn so great, that lest men shold bycause they be sayntes haue theyr doctryne the more in reuerence & estymacyon, they haue deuysed a new heresy, wherwith they wolde make men byleue that there were none of them all yet in heuen. And lest theyr malice & enuy toward them shold appere, & the cause also wherfore they bere it yf they shold so saye by no mo sayntes but those ys were wryters & doctours of the chyrch: they let not to saye the same vtterly of all the remanaunt, our blessed lady & all, ys excepte our sauyour hym selfe, there is none yet in heuen at all, neyther in body nor soule. And lest men myght thynke that yf there were purgatory, some went frome thense to heuyn amonge/ that is one of the causes, why they put that there is no purgatory neyther. Then syth they se that yf god gyue yet before domys day vnto no man, rewarde & blysse for his fayth & good lyfe, it were hard to thynke that beyng so lyberall, good, and mercy- full as he is, he wolde be more prone to punysshe then to reward/ & for theyr euyll dedes or infydelyte before that day, send nien into payne therfore tyll domys day: they wolde haue the worlde byleue there were none hell neyther, for any soule of man. And then leste they sholde be dreuen to confesse that they [Giv] byleue the thynge, whyche yf they durst for shame shewe I wene they bvleue in dede/ & wyll hereafter come forth withall yf they may gete onys theyr other heresyes in mennes hartes fastely fyrste confermed: leste they sholde before I saye be dreuen to confesse, that they byleue the soule to be mortall, and vtterly dye wyth the body/ they saye for the whyle that vntyll domes daye, they lye styll all and slepe/ as Luther wryteth playnely in a sermone vppon the gospell of the ryche gloton and Lazare. And therfore yf we tell theym of that story of Abraam, Diues, & Lazarus, the twayn in reste and welthe the thyrd in fyre and flame, the storye that Cryste telleth hym selfe/ they call it but a parable, and almost make a potte at it. Then all apparycyons they mocke at/ and all the myracles they blaspheme, and say the deuyll doth all. And thus whyle thaffeccyon of these heretykes to the olde heresyes, maketh them to declyne from the olde holy doctours that euer condempned those heresyes, and agaynste theyr exposycyons construe the scrypture wronge: the deuyll hathe dreuen them downe myche ferther, and made theym fall to blasphemye agaynste goddes sayntes and hys myracles, and gyue the honour of goddes great workes vnto the deuyll, as the very wurst sorte of the Iewys dyd/ and vnto all theyr olde heresyes to lynke an whole chayne of newe, suche as the worste and the moste shamelesse sorte of here- tykes that euer were of olde, wolde haue ben yet ashamed to thynke vppon. If Tyndale denye that hym selfe and all theyr sectes be agaynst all the olde holy doctours, and all the olde holy doctours agaynste them: he can not saye naye but that besyde the abomynable weddynge of frerys and nonnes, Luther confesseth hym selfe in his babylonica, that all the old doctours are agaynste hym, in his heresye that he holdeth agaynste the canon of the masse. And so for conclusyon of thys poynt, that Tyndale may se what he hath wonne wyth hys resemblynge of the catholyke chyrche vnto the synagoge of the Iewys that was at the comynge of Cryst/ and the clergy of the catholyke chyrche to the scrybes and pharyseys that then were in the synagoge/ he hath now by occasyon of that resemb- launce luckely founden out, that thoughe these heretykes dyd styll dwell wyth the chyrche, and neyther departed awaye them selfe nor the chyrche dyd vomyte and spew them oute / but [Gi] that the trew and the false though they taught dyuersely and contrary, contynued yet styll to gyther as they dyd in the synagoge of the Iewys: yet this one marke alone of the olde holy doctours of the catholyque chyrch, condempnynge the heresyes of Tyndale and Luther and all theyr other sectys, clerely wolde gyue a lyght, by which the trew doctryne myght be knowen from the false. And ther- fore this marke alone as openly marketh Luther, & Tyndale, & Huiskyn, and Suynglyus, and all the rable of theyr felowes, for open & playne heretykes/ as yf the deuyll had his owne handes marked eche of them an.H. in the forehede, with a fayre hote yron fet out of the fyre of hell. This one marke whiche Tyndale hathe here caused to be founden out, doth yet ferthermore shake of all his raylynge and scoffynge, and reiecteth them and casteth theym all backe agayne, & maketh them euerychone to fall vpon his owne pate. For by thexposicions of the olde holy sayntes/ we know that the wordes of saynte Peter/ with whiche Tyndale here rayleth vpon the chyrche, were by saynt Peter spoken agaynst suche heretykes, as taught opinions agaynst the chyrche/ as playnely appereth by many olde doctours of the chyrche. And also the very wordes of saynte Peter wyll declare the same. For he sayth that those false lying maysters, shal be the bryngers in of dampnable sectys. Wherby it well appereth, that he speketh agaynst those archheretykes, which agaynst the one catholyke chyrche, whiche in the necessary pointes of the fayth agreeth and euer hath agreed well in one to gyther, by that holy spyryte of god whiche by Christes promyse ledeth it into euery necessarye trewthe, & maketh all of one mynde in that house/ do brynge and haue brought an hundred sundry sectys of herysyes erroneouse false and vntrew, wherof neither any one consenteth with a nother, nor amonge theym all one man almooste with a nother. And where saynt Peter sayth, that many men shall folow theyr dampnable abhominacions / that is so clerely veryfyed in these heretykes nowe, that all the worlde hathe cause to wepe that it is so well spied. Also where he sayth that by them the way of trouth shal be blasphemed/ is very manyfest & open, specially in these [Giv] new heretikes as Luther, & Tyndale, Huyskyn, & Suinglyus/ whiche nat onely blaspheme amonge them the olde holy doctours & sayntes, & the myracles of god, wrought and shewed by them, for the stablyssh- nge of the trouthe: but also Christe hym selfe in the blessed sacrament/ whiche is as hym selfe sayth, both the way and the trouth, and the lyfe therwith. And whan he speketh of auaryce and fayned wordes/ as for fayned wordes they vse none other, yf playne fals be fayned/ as appereth by theyr playne false heresyes agaynst the blessed sacramentes. And as for auarice, though many of them fall at the last to beggery, by the very vengeaunce of god full sore agaynst theyr wyllys: yet se we well inough how gredely the pedelynge knauys that here brynge ouer theyr bokes, gryspe about an halfe peny, and had almoste as leue hange vp his euangelycall brother as lese a peny by hym. And syr Tho. Boulde, reported here theyr lyberalytye very well. For besyde myche other euangelycall auaryce, he tolde vs here, that all be it he sawe golde greate plentye in Tyndals purse/ yet coulde he gete but one small pece to go out of Almayne vnto London on hys errande, bothe to sow hys euangelycall sede, & to stele an euangelycall boke out of a poore frerys lybrary/ and when he hadde stolen it then brynge it into Almayne to hym. And for all thys long labour of hys goynge, & his besynes of tyllynge and sowynge, and besydes that hys lygyer demayne in stelynge, wherof a man myghte happe to fall to hangynge/ he could as he sayd gete of Tyndale no more for all thys gere, but one poore pece of golde. Now as for makynge of merchaundyse, that saynt Peter speketh of and Tyndale here layeth agaynst the clergy of the catholyke chyrche/ what merchaundyse these heretykes make I can not well tell. But thys ys well knowen, that when our euangelycall Englysshe heretykes fall in acquayntaunce beyonde the see wyth some of our merchauntes factours/ they mylke them so euangelycally, that when theyr maysters call theym home, they gyue theym a very shrewed rekenynge. And surely as all the wordes of saynt Peter with whyche Tyndale here iesteth agaynste the catholyke chyrche, were by saynt Peter spoken agaynst these heretykys onely: [Gi] so wyll these wordes of hys at laste be verified playne vppon them, in whyche he sayeth that the iudgement ceaseth not, but is redy a good whyle a go agaynste them/ & theyr perdycyon slepeth not but waketh and groneth for them. But as for that that Tyndale sayth, that the clergy crepynge into the seat of Christe and his apostles by successyon, do as the wyly foxe dothe, whose nature is to entre into an hole made with an other beest: I can nat well perceyue what he meneth by his wyly symyly- tude of the wyly foxe. For sythe he sayeth they cum into the place by succession/ he layth nat any inuasion, or intrusion, or other vnlaw- full commynge therin to. And as for theyr wylynes in folowyng the wylynes of the foxe, whose nature is to get hym an hole made with an other beestes labour: he can nat meane any thyng to the purpose that I can perceyue/ but yf he meane to mocke the wordes of our Sauiour hym selfe, which sayth to his apostles them selfe, bothe for them selfe and all that shulde by succession in theyr offyce folowe theym that they shuld in a maner folow the nature of the foxe in that fasshion. For he sayde vnto them: I haue sente you to repe that that ye laboured not/ for other men laboured, and ye haue entred vpon theyr labours. And therfore I can nat dyuyne what mistery Tyndale meaneth by his folowynge of the wyly foxe, whose nature is he sayeth to get hym an hole made with an other bestes labour. Nor I purpose nat to lese ys tyme in musyng what he may meane therby, nor to be so curyouse & inquysytyue as to enquyre whither peraduenture he haue founde out any suche fasshion in Saxony, that theyr prestes, theyr frerys, and theyr monkes vse there in theyr maryages that wyly maner of the wyly foxe. How be it in dede suche as cum thense/ vnasked saye they do, and comonly can do none other. Now where he sayth that the clergye do entre for onely lucre/ he taketh vppon hym to iudge the power of god, in iudgynge euery mannes mynde/ but yf he thynke it a suflicient profe that they cum therto for nothyng els, bycause they say nat take away the landes and all the fruites from the benefyce, or els I wyll none of hit. As thoughe the apostle sayd nat hym selfe, that reason wold they shuld haue theyr lyuyng by the autre/ ye and though he counsayled them to be con- tent with bare meate and drynke and clothynge/ [Giv] yet sayd he that one of them doynge theyr dewtye, is wurthy the double thah another man is. Nay sayth Tyndale. For they gouerne not well, nor do not as saynt Poule saythe, sowe spyrytuall thynges. For they be sayth Tyndale false techers, and do begyle & lede out of the ryght way, all them that haue no loue to folowe and lyue after the truth. Let Tyndale here speke out, and tell vs whyche treuth is that that the people loue not to folow and lyue after/ & that therfore god suffereth the clergye to lede them out of the ryght waye far wronge. Thys treuth is good chrysten reader a very false treuth/ wherof not onely ys clergy now but thapostles also theym selfe, euer clerely taughte the contrary/ as that folke shold not praye for theyr fathers soules nor do penaunce for theyr own synnes, nor honour the blessed body of Cryste in the blessed sacrament, nor set by no sacrament ellys, but call incesteouse lechery good and lawfull maryage, haue holy vowes in derysyon/ & in dyspyght of matrymony and vowed chastyte bothe to pollute theym bothe at ones, wedde freres and nonnes to gyther. Lo these thynges & such other are the sure tryed truthes ye wote well, that Tyndale wolde haue the people byleue & lyue after/ and the spyrytuall thynges whyche he complayneth that the clergy wyll not preche. Whych spyrytuall seed bycause they wyll not sowe/ he wolde they shold repe none of our carnall corne/ nor not onely be rekened vnworthy to receyue as saynt Poule sayth, the dowble auauntage that an other man sholde, but also to receyue so myche by Tyndales wyll, as an other mannes olde clowted shone. And yet the marke that we spake of, of the olde holy doctours & sayntes, marketh hym from the chyrche for a playne heretyke in these pestylent poyntes to. And that they all so do/ he knoweth hym selfe so well, that I thynke as shamelesse as he is he wyll not for very shame say naye. But now runneth he forth and rayleth on ferther thus. Tyndale. And in lyke maner haue they corrupte the scrypture, and blynded the ryght waye, wyth theyr owne constytucyons, with tradycyons of domme ceremonyes, wyth the takynge away the signyfycacyons of yhe sacramentes to make vs byleue the worke of the sacramentes fyrste, wherby they myghte the better byleue in workes of theyr owne settynge vp afterwarde. [Gi] More. Now wolde I that Tyndale shulde here haue rehersed with what constytucyons of theyr owne the chyrche hathe corrupted the scrip- ture, and blynded the ryght waye. How be it he may say that I am to blame to byd hym reherse them agayne he hath reherced them so often all redy/ as orderyng that men shulde haue matyns and masse, and kepe the sonday and sum other holy dayes, and that they shuld be bounden to kepe fastynge dayes, and namely as Tyndales felow Brightwell sayth, whom sum folke call Fryth, the folyssh fast of the Lent/ wherby there is taken away the euangelycall lyberty, that folke may nat eat flessh on good fryday for compassion of Christes passion. And with thys ordynaunce be they wondre wrothe/ as though the chyrche ordayned that folke shuld distroy them selfe with forberynge theyr meate/ and kyll them selfe with abstynence. And yet are the lawes of the chyrch mittigated and made easy with exceptions and libertyes almoost moo than ynough / prouydynge for sycke men, chyldern, olde men, laborers, pylgrymes, nursys, wymen with chyld, and pore folke, and well nere as farre as men myght go/ but yf these lleretykes be angry that the chyrch had nat prouyded for gorbely glottons to, that they myght cast in and cast vp gorge vpon gorge, and with a full bely before they be an hungred, pampre in theyr pawnches a fresshe. And yet in this poynte to, the marke that I spake of, of the olde holy sayntes, doth marke these men for heretykes. For these ordy- naunces are nat bygon by the clergye that now is, nor by the clergy of this eyght hundred yere passed/ but hathe ben bygon and con- tinually kepte and obserued, from aboue a thousande yere, ye fourtene hundred yere, ye from the dayes of the apostles them selfe/ and bygan also by them selfe, as it not onely doeth appere playne by other autentyque wrytyng, but verely well also by the very scripture it selfe, as I partely haue all redy shewed, and partely shall yet herafter. Than sayth he that the clergye hathe blynded the ryght waye with domme ceremonyes. Yet aske I Tyndale here agayne whiche clergy, and whiche ceremonyes? I saye that in this poynte agayne, the marke that hym selfe made me fynde out, the olde holy doctours and sayntes, marke hym for an heretyke and a lyer bothe. [Giv] For it is euydent and open, that great parte of the ceremonyes whiche the chyrche vseth now, were of olde vsed in the tyme of the eldest of them, and before the eldest of them to / and that suche ceremonyes cam from the apostles them selfe. And Tindale neuer brought out yet either boke, lefe, or lyne, to proue vs one worde of all his bybyll bable trew, that euer the ceremonyes that he calleth now dumme, spake euer in olde tyme so muche as a mumme, more than they do now. Truthe it is ys men myghte then make allegoryes of them, and so may they now, and so many prechers do, & so doeth that good man that made the booke of <2Rationale diuinorum/>2 with which kynd of allegoryes Tyndale cummeth furthe in his boke of dysobedyence, in suche a goodly fasshion as it semeth ys but yf the preest alway tell that tale to the people, he wolde haue the people pull the preest from the auter, and the amys from his hed. But to what purpose he maketh all this brablynge vppon dumme ceremonyes, appereth well vppon the nexte worde after, where he sayth that the chyrche hathe taken away the significacion from the sacramentes. Yet I aske Tyndale agayne which chyrche, and which significacions? Let vs go agayne to our olde marke/ and I dare laye a wager with hym, he shall fynde no mo signyfycacions of the sacra- mentes in the bokes ofthe eldest ofal ys olde holy doctours and sayntes, than I shall fynde hym in the bokes of euery age nowe this two or thre hundred yeres from Eester last passed vpwarde, and so forth in the other ages next aboue that, tyll he cum to the olde tyme of that holy doctour whom so euer hym selfe wyll alledge. And than it well ap- pereth parde, that the clergy that now is, hath taken away no sygny- fycacyons of the sacramentes at all. We wyll also demaunde of Tyndale, sythe he sayth that the clergy hath taken away the sygnyfycacyons of the sacramentes/ whyther were those sygnyfycacyons that they haue taken away, necessary to saluacion or nat. If they were nat/ thenne is there not so greate losse of theym. And on the tother syde yf they were so necessary, that wythout the knowledge of theym the thynges that we be commaunded to do, and whyche we maye nat without disobedyence of god leue vndone, be bycomme noyouse, superstycyouse, and dampnable / thanne sythe as many suche sygnyfycacyons as be wrytten in the scrypture, do re[Hi]mayne styll and be preched: the tother of whose takyng away Tyndale complayneth beyng necessary for saluacion to be knowen, were neuer wryten in scrypture. And then falsefyeth hym selfe hys owne doctryne, that no such necessary thynge was by thapostles lefte vnwryten. If he saye that mo then haue theyr specyall sygnyfycacyons wryten in scrypture, be not necessary: therin wyll not onely the marke that we spake of, of the olde holy sayntes, marke hym for an heretike/ but so wyll the very scrypture to, by whyche it appereth that all the seuyn sacramentes were by god gyuen to hys chyrche, as thynges by goddes instytucyon necessary for mannys saluacyon/ in suche wyse at the lest wyse as the neglectynge and contempte of the grace that god geueth in theym, is able to brynge the dyspyser to dampnacyon. But it appereth clerely what holy purpose Tyndale hath in thys mater. For he speketh not so myche of the sygnyfycacyons, for any care that he careth for the sygnyfycacyons/ but onely bycause he wolde haue vs take the sacramentes for no thynge ellys, but onely for the bare sygnes of some loste sygnyfycacyons/ and therfore as thynges not onely noughte worth and superfluouse, but also super- stycyouse and noyouse. And in thys wyse wolde he make vs wene, that for the sacramentes we were neuer the better / and that to take them for any other thynge then a bare token, and to thynke that the blessed sacrament of the aulter were the very body and bloude of Cryste, or any thynge ellys then wyne and cake brede set vp for a bare sygne, as a tauerners busshe or tapysters ale stake, were a very superstycyouse thynge/ and not onely peryllous he sayth for the thynge in it selfe, but also bycause it myghte happe to be a meane to make vs byleue, that the thynges whyche the chyrch calleth good workes, were any thynge frutefull or merytorious. And which workes in prayour & doynge of almoyse dedes. Were it not a perylouse thynge to byleue that suche thynges wolde do vs good? beynge done as the catholyke chyrche techeth vs to do them, to byleue that none of them all can gete vs any rewarde in heuen of the nature of the dede it selfe, but onely bycause the lyberall goodnesse of god hath appoynted such a rewarde therto, thorow the merytes of our sauyours passyon/ and that [Hiv] yet we maye well fere in all our good dedys, suche imperfeccyon vppon our owne parte in the doynge, that it shal percase haue no suche rewarde at all/ and for all that feare, hope well and pray therewith, that the goodnes of god supply vpon his parte, the dew perfectyon requysyte that lacketh vppon our owne parte. Is nat this doctryne of suche bylyefe and trust in good workes so peryllouse, that rather than men myght be the rather drawen into good workes therwith, Tyndale sholde make vs take all the seuen sacramentes and caste them clene awaye/ whych he sayth in mo places then one, be now not onely frutelesse, but also harmfull and perilouse? In whyche poynt euery man marketh well, that yet agayne the marke that we spake of, the comen consent of the olde holy doctours and sayntes, marke thys man for a very myscheuouse heretyque. And euer thys the farther he walketh, the deper is this marke pren- ted in hys forhed/ that he can neuer wander so farre oute of the waye, but the deuyll wyll well inough by that marke perceyue hym and chalenge hym for hys own. For lo thus goth he forth, Tyndale. And with false gloses whiche they haue patched to the scrypture in playne places to destroye the lyterale sense, for to set vp a false fayned sense of allegoryes when there is none suche/ and therby they haue stopped vp the gates of heuen, the true knowlege of Cryst, and haue made theyr own belyes the dore. For thorow theyr belyes muste thou crepe, and there leue all thy fatte behynde the. More. If Tyndale haue yet rayled inough/ glad wolde I be to haue hym come onys to some reason. For as for hys crepynge thorow folkes belyes, wherof he so sore complayneth: I wolde he had declared hos he crepte in, and into whose mouth he crepte, and by what crafte he scaped the teeth for bytynge, and how longe he lay in the bely, and howe he gate downe thorow the smale guttes, and in the crepynge oute what stykkynge his face founde byneth, & how myche grece he lefte there behynde hym/ & for the bely greace that he lefte behynde hym, whyther he brought oute any gutte greace wyth hym. For suche folyshe iestynge and raylyng as he maketh here vpon the clergy, myght any knaue haue made vppon the apostels in the begynnynge, when euery man that came into chrystendome, dyd geue all that euer [Hi] he had in to theyr handes all to gether, and kepte hym selfe ryght nought, nor durst not vppon payne of deth after the vengeaunce of god fallen vppon Ananyas and Saphyra for kepyng parte of theyr owne a syde for them selfe. Then myghte lo some suche as Tyndale is now, haue rayled & sayed to any that were wyllyng to come in to chrystendom, Brother beware of the apostles, for thorowe theyr belyes must thou crepe, & there leue all thy fatte behynde the. And as it semeth, some suche felow bygan to sowe such seed of euyll rumour amonge ye people agaynst thapostles euyn than, and set some suspycyouse or inquyete myndes vppon grudgynge. Nor I can not now so greatly se, who is compelled to be at so great coste wyth the clergye. Suche as haue of theyr owne make no great exaccyons bysyde that I here of And suche as nought haue of theyr owne, yet is no man compelled to gyue them aught but of hys owne deuocyon & cheryte/ whyche yet suche heretykes haue in some places not a lytell coled, and in some places vtterly quenched, when the people se theym so bestely to breke theyr vowys and wedde. Now where he sayeth that the clergye vseth to dystroye the lyterall sense of the scrypture wyth false fayned allegoryes/ this is falsely sayd of hym. For the allegorye neyther destroyeth nor letteth the lyterall sense/ but ys lyterall sense standeth whole bysyde. And where he sayeth that there is none allegorye sense, as Luther and he saye bothe, and that in mo places then one: yet shall oure olde marke of olde holy doctours and sayntes, marke hym for an heretyke agayn. For I am sure he shall not lyghtely fynde any of those olde, but that he vsed allegoryes. Luther and Tyndale wolde haue all allegoryes and all other senses taken awaye, sauynge the lytterall sense alone. But god whose plentu- ouse spyryte endyghted the scrypture, foresaw full well hym selfe that many godly allegories holy men sholde by hys inspyracyon at dyuers tymes draw out therof And somtyme he endyghted it, & our sauyour hym self somtyme spake his wordes in such wyse, that the letter had none other sense then mysteryes & allegoryes/ as comenly all his parables be, of which he expowned some him self & some he ex- pouned not, but hath left them [Hiv] to be expowned by holy doc- tours after hys deth/ and some of them hath he holpen dyuerse to expoune dyuersly, as his hygh wysdome saw that dyuers good frute sholde folowe and ensew theruppon. Somtyme also though the lyterall sense be full good/ yet dothe god gyue the grace to some man to fynde oute a ferther thynge therin. Whyche sence god that endyghted the letter, dyd when he made it fore see, and more dyd sette therby then by the sense that immedy- ately ryseth vppon the letter/ whych letter hys hygh wysdome so tempered for the nones, that suche other sense myghte be perceyued therin and drawen out therof, by suche as hym selfe had determyned to gyue the grace to fynde it. And for ensample our lorde sayth in the booke of Deuteronomy, Thou shall not bynde the mouthe of the oxe as he goth in the flowre and thressheth the corne. The very letter is of it selfe good/ and techeth men a certayne reason and iustyce to deale well and iustely, euyn wyth the very bestes that labour wyth them/ & to abhorre wythout good cause eyther to pyne them or payne them. Now thoughe this sentence be good, and the Iewes were bounden by the letter of the law, to order theym selfe in that wyse towarde theyr oxen/ seynge no ferther ther- in, nor some so farre neyther peraduenture: yet dyd thapostle fynde out an other secrete sense therin/ and that sense suche as in respecte therof he set the tother at nought/ and shewed that god ment therby that the preste which laboreth spyrytually in his offyce, muste haue his temporall lyuynge therfore. And to proue that the spyryte of god entended thys sense and vnderstandynge erin / he sayth, Careth god awght for the oxen/ as though he wolde saye nay. And yet in dede god careth and prouydeth for the lyuynge of euery lyuynge thynge. For it is wryten in the psalme, that god geueth the mete to the bestes and to the yonge byrdes of the crows that calle vppon hym. And our sauyour sayth hym selfe, Loke ye vpon the byrdes of the ayre, they neyther sowe nor spynne / and yet your father that is in heuyn fedeth them. And thus it apereth that god careth for the fedynge of all that euer he hath made. But yet saw saynte Poule, that god so myche cared for the prestes leuynge, aboue that he careth for the oxes leuynge/ tllat in respecte of the tone compared wyth the to[Hi]ther, god cared not for the oxe at all/ but wolde we sholde vnderstande therby, that we sholde in any wyse prouyde that the preste whyche laboreth wyth vs in spyri- tuall besynes, shold haue of vs his temporall leuynge. And I wene Tyndale is euen angre wyth saynte Poule for that exposycyon. Now are there many other textes in the olde law, which in lyke wyse receyue lyke exposycyon, by goodly and frute full allegoryes, as in the olde holy saynts bokes appereth. All whych will Tyndale here haue wyped oute in any wise and wyll haue none allegoryes at all. Holy saynt Hierome expowneth by an allegorye the text of scryp- ture, that the holy prophete Dauid by the connsayle of his physycyons when he waxed very colde for age, toke to wyfe besyde all his other wyues, the fayrest yonge mayden, that coulde be founden in all the countre aboute, to do hym pleasure in his presence by daye, and lye in his armes and kepe hym warme a nyghtes. Thys texte was trew in dede. And yet doth that holy doctour saynt Hierom in all that euer he can, drawe from the consyderacyon of the letter, to the lokynge vppon the allegorye. For be the wordes of the texte neuer so trewe/ yet thoughte as yt semeth that blessed holy saynte, that god caused that storye to be wryten in the scripture, rather for the frute that folke shall take by some good holesome allegorye that god wold in to some man inspyre theruppon, then to make vs muse & studye and dyuyse vppon the onely sample of kynge Dauyds dede, wherby some olde hus- bande wolde lerne to let his olde wyfe lye, and take colde in a bedde alone, and hym self take a yonge prety prym to bed to kepe his bakke warme for physyke. Fynally I dare well say, that the allegoryes wryten vppon the texte of lloly scrypture be very frutefull, what so euer Tyndale say/ and ellys wolde god neuer haue suffred so many blessed holy men bystowe so myche tyme aboute theym / but that hym selfe both foresaw the frute, and deuysed those textes in suclle wyse also, that thorow good folkes laboure wyth the swete warmth of his owne inspyracyon, such holsome frute shold plentuously sprynge therof Go me now thorow all these poyntes agayn, that Tyndale hath vnder the name of the clergy, layed agaynste the catholyke chyrche, crepynge vp in to thapostles place, re[Hiv]specte of lucre, ledynge in a wronge way, begylynge the people, makynge of constytucyons, vsynge of ceremonyes takynge away the sygnyfycacyons of sacra- mentes, and makynge of false gloses/ and ye shall fynde good chrysten reders of all these fautes that they falsely ley to our charge, theyr owne bosoms full. For theyr archeheretykes accompte theym selfe for the prechers, and chalenge the apostles place, not by succession but by inuasyon. For they go and preache and be not sent/ and though pryde prykke them forth wyth lybertye to lechery, yet not wythout lucre neyther. For some one of them puttynge oute hys felowes such as wyll be religyouse and contynue chaste, kepeth all theyr leuynge alone, sauynge for an harlot taken vnto hym to be called hys wyfe, and gete vppe a couent of bastardes betwene theym/ and then they begyle the people wyth theyr false preachynge, & lede them a very wronge way excepte the strayght wey to hell be the ryght waye to heuen. Now as for constytucyons wherof they wold haue none amonge vs/ theym selfe haue ben fayne in some cytyes of Almayne as late as they be bygonne, to make mo constytucyons and more bourdenouse to the people, more greuous and more sore to kepe vppe theyr heresyes wyth, then the chyrche hath made in many yeres to kepe vp the trew chrysten fayth. Ceremonyes also whyche amonge vs they mokke and call them dumme/ Marten Luther hym self Tyndales great mayster, after that he had lefte theym of, was by the profe and experyence dreuen lytle and lytle to take them almoste euerychone vppe agayne, sauynge fastynge lo. For that ceremonye frere Luther wyll none in no wyse, lest yt sholde feble hys fleshe and let hym from getynge of chyldren, and hyndre his harlot of temynge. Now touchynge the sacramentes, where of they say the chyrche hath taken away the sygnyfycacyons/ these heretykes take from theym all the thynge whyche they chiefly sygnyfye, that is to say, the grace inuisyble that god geueth wyth them, and wherof he maketh them an effectuall token and instrument. And ouer this of the seuen they take away fyue quyte, & leue the tother twayne frutelesse / and from the tone take they the swete carnell wythin, the blessed body of Chryste, and leue the people the shalys. [Hi] Then as for truste in workes / the catholyque chyrche scantely teacheth so bolde trust in abstynence, almoyse dede, prayour, and chastyte, as theyr archeheretyques teache in glotony, spoilyng of chyrches, despyte of all holowes, and in relygyouse lechery. Fynally for makyng of false gloses/ them selfe do mych more then that. For they where they lyste boldely deny the texte/ and wyll take for scrypture but what they lyst theym selfe / for so reiecte they dyuerse partes whyche the whole catholyque chyrche doth receyue/ and so myghte they by the same reason reiecte the remanaunt to, and so they wyll I wene at laste, and some haue done all redy. And then as for false gloses, they make theym selfe the worst that euer were wroughte. As Luther to make men wene that matrymony were no sacrament/ where the kynges hyghnes as a moste erudyte prynce and a moste faythfull kyng, in his moste famouse boke amonge many other great authorytees & reasons, preced hym sore wyth that that the gloryouse apostle saynte Poule calleth yt a great sacrament hym self. Luther I say, letteth not in this wyse to glose saynte Poules wordes, and say that saynte Poule peraduenture sayed yt of his owne hed. Is not there an hamer hed more mete to make horshone in hell, then to constre the scrypture in erth, that is so harde as to make such gloses to that gloryouse apostles wordes? wherin who so lyst to folow Tyndale, maye set at short all that thapostle teacheth/ and say he sayd that but of his own mynde, and not accordynge to the mynde of god. And yet syth this is Luthers owne glose, and his owne answere vnto other men: Luther hym selfe and Tyndale also, and all his other dyscyples, myght well and wythout blasphemy be answered wyth the same in all the harde places of saynt Poule wyth theyr false glosynge, wherof they wold destroy the fre wyll of man, & lay the weyght of theyr owne synnys to the charge of goddes ineuytable prescyens, and theyr owne ineuitable destynye. Now what false gloses be they fayne to fynde agaynste good workes, to corrupte an hundred playne places of holy scryp- tunure, by whyche they be clerely declared for thynges specyally pleasynge to god, and thorough the menys of hys goodnes hyghly rewardable in heuen and mery toryouse. [Hiv] What false gloses be they fayne to fynde agaynst holy vowys of chastyte, to corrupt so many playne places of scrypture, as vtterly condempne to the deuyll theyr fowle fylthy wyddynges and incestuouse lechery. Fynally fayne they not false gloses to corrupt the gospell, and dreue god oute of christendome, when they wolde expell Chryste out of the sacrament of the auter? What care they how they glose the apostle, when they care not how shamelesse they shew them selfe in settyng so false and folyshe gloses to the playne open wordes of our sauyour Chryste hym selfe? For where he sayd of the blessed sacra- ment, This is my body: Martyne Luther Tyndales olde mayster gloseth yt thus, This is brede and my body. Then frere Huyskyn and Suynglius Tyndales two new maysters, declynynge from yll to worse/ glose yt in this fashyon, This is my body, is as myche to say, as this sygnyfyeth my bodye. And so make they Christe to declare hym selfe, as though he wold tell vs thus: I sayd in dede that this is my bodye, and so I made myne apostles wene, and so haue I made all good men beleue this fyftene hundred yere/ but all this whyle haue I hadde no luste to tell my chyrche the trouth, bycause there were so many good men in yt that wolde not vppon truste of fayth alone, forbere from all good workes, but were very besye with them by reason of theyr wronge vnderstandinge of the scrypture/ whyche I lyked not to declare playnely to them, bycause so many of them dyd vow chastyte and kepte yt. But now that I haue founden a nother maner sorte of holy men, that haue vowed chastyte and breke theyr vowe, and wyll do no suche good workes as myght make theym truste vpon any rewarde in heuen, nor forbere any euyll workes wherwyth they shulde walke to hell/ but lyue at lyberty, and do what they lyste, and byleue as they lyste, and loke to lepe strayght to heuen by the promyse that I neuer made them: to theym haue I therefore nowe shewed euen the very botome of my stomake/ and not yet all at ones/ but fyrst I tolde Luther & his secte that in the sacrament was bothe my very body & very brede there wyth, by- cause they sholde not eate fleshe wythout brede for fere of bredynge wormys in the babys belyes. But now sone after synnes, I tolde to frere Huyskyn and Swynglius, and bode them tell it out [Ii] vnto Tyndale that where as I sayde, This is my bodye, and this is my bloode, I ment no more but that yt sygnyfyeth my bodye and my blood, and is nothynge ellys in dede but euen a cuppe of very wyne & therwyth good cake brede alone/ but yf yt be as Tyndale douteth wyth ouer myche waterynge tourned from brede to starche. These goodly gloses lo do these heretyques make, and these blas- phemouse folyes they preache vnto the people, as boldely and as solempnely as though they hadde herd them in heuen, & lerned them of goddes owne mouth/ and wold seme to be sente from heuen in stede of Chrystes apostles and of our sauyour hym selfe/ and wyth iestynge mokkynge and scoffynge, wene to rayle out euery mannys reason saue theyr owne. For thus lo wyth his symylytude of the scrybes & pharysyes and synagoge of the Iewes, Tyndale rayleth on agaynste the prestes and the clergye, & the whole catholyque chryche of Chryste. Tyndale. And such blynde reasons as ours make agaynste vs, made they agaynste Chryste, sayenge Abraam is our father, we be Moyses dyscyples. Howe knoweth he the vnderstandynge of the scrypture, he neuer lerned of any of vs. Onely the cursed vnlerned people that knowe not the scrypture byleue in hym/ loke whyther any of the rulers or pharysyes do byleue in hym. More. Tyndale as he before hath hytherto lykened the catholyque chyrche of all chrysten people, vnto the synagoge of the Iewes / and the scrybes and pharysyes that were then, vnto the preachers and the clergye that are nowe: so doth he now crepe a lytle farther, and resembleth hym selfe and such other heretyques hys felowes, vnto the person of our sauyour hym selfe/ and sayth the reasons whyche we nowe make agaynste hym and hys felowes, are suche blynde reasons as the Iewys made agaynste Chryste. For answere wherof this dare I boldely saye, that as syke and as feble as the synagoge then was to whyche he resembleth vs, and as farre as they then were walked out of the way, and as euyll as then the scribes were, and as false as then were the pharisyes to whome he resembleth all the whole clergy noW wythoute any one man excepte: yet yf our sauyoure Chryste to whome he resembleth hym selfe, had then hadde no more to saye for hym selfe then Tyndale & his felowes haue now to say for them self, he hadde I promyse you ben [Iiv] very sore opposed, and that euyn by the very scrypture it selfe, and by Crystes owne doctryne to. For yf Tyndale and hys felowes had bene there than them selfe, and our sauyour and hys apostles away/ when he wyth hys felowes wolde haue rebuked the Iewes and haue reproued theyr lyuynge, they sholde haue founden in Tyndale and hys felowes fautes inough, so greate and so syghtly, that they myght haue sayed vnto them very well, Take the beames oute of your owne eyen ye hypocrytes, ere ye go aboute to take the motys out of other mennys. For neyther had Tyndale nor any felow of hys, bene able to saye as Cryste sayed, whyche of you can reproue me of synne? And when they wolde fynde fautes that were none/ then so to haue answered them ferther and confute them as Cryste dyd. For vnto Tyndale yf he had reproued the scrybes and the phary- seys doctryne, and shewed that they both taught euyll for good, and reproued as euyll some thynges that were not euyll, and some thynges also that were in dede good/ when he wolde haue proued them this by scrypture, they wolde peraduenture haue stycked wyth hym vppon the ryght vnderstandynge of the scrypture. Wherin yf he wolde haue loked to haue bene better to be byleued then they/ me thynketh that afore ryghte reasonable folke, he sholde haue had an harde parte to defende/ sauynge onely for one thynge yf he could and wold haue layed it agaynst them. And that is yf he wolde haue sayed and coulde haue proued vnto them, that the good holy Iewys of olde tyme before them in sundry ages, had expouned the scryptures after hys prech- ynge and contrary vnto theyrs. Thys poynt wolde I promyse you sore haue appalled them. But then wyll thys poynte as sore appall Tyndale in thys debate bytwene hym and vs, bycause all the old holy sayntes from Crystes tyme to ours, haue euer expowned the scryptures in the necessary poyntes of fayth, as the chyrche now doth, contrary to Tyndale and all the whole rable of all the sectes of heretykes. But now for as myche as I am not sure, whyther Tyndale wolde so saye to the Iewys or not: let vs therfore hardely take Tyndale thense agayne/ and lette our sauyoure Cryste alone wyth them/ and se whyther he haue any better answeres to make the Iewys there, then Tyndale hath [Ii] here to make vs. Cryste, yf they wolde loke to be better byleued in the construccyon of the scrypture then he, and wolde aske hym of whome he lerned it syth he lerned it not of them/ could well tell them and well proue them, that hym selfe alone oughte more to be byleued therin thenne they all together. For he coulde shewe theym that all those scryptures fro Moyses downewarde, dyd all prophecye of hym, and that he sholde 2o be the techer of theym, and the chyefe prophete, and the trewest precher / and that therfore Moyses had commaunded them to here hym/ and a greater then Moyses the father of heuyn hym selfe, hadde commaunded them to here hym and that the spryte of god had lyghted vppon hym in wytnesse therof, and that he was hym selfe goddes owne sonne, and wyth hys father and hys holy spyryte one Sod hym selfe and egall. And to make them the better perceyue it/ he could do and wolde do and in dede so dyd he, such dedes in theyr owne syghte, as well by hys owne power and of hys owne authoryte as by the inuocacyon of his father, suche dedes I saye as none coulde do but god. All thys lo coulde Cryst for hym selfe answere vnto the blynde reasons that the Iewys made vnto hym. And now lette Tyndale in lyke wyse wyth helpe of all hys felowes, answere the same thynges for hym selfe to our blynde reasons that we make agaynste hym, & thenne make hys answeres good, that is to wyt proue them trew/ and then wyll we gyue hym good leue to put out all our eyen, and make vs all blynde in dede. But Tyndale can not go that waye, but wyll lede vs a lytell out of our waye / & speke agaynste the whole catholyke chyrche, and thenne turne it to the clergy alone, & somtyme to the pope alone. And he wyl speke agaynst the faith of the chyrche now, and make vs forgete that all the olde holy sayntes fro Chryste vnto oure dayes, bothe taughte and byleued the same, and all the chrysten people besyde. And thus neyther hauynge the thynges to laye agaynste the fayth of the catholyke chyrche that were well layed agaynste the synagoge of the Iewes, nor hauynge no suche defence for hym selfe as hadde oure sauyoure for hym selfe to whome he wolde be resembled:. he wyndeth hym selfe so wylyly thys way & that way and so shyfteth in and oute, and wyth hys sotle shyftynge he so blereth our eyen, that he [Iiv] maketh vs in maner as starke blinde as a catte/ and so maseth vs in the mater, that we can no more se where aboute he walketh, thenne yf he wente visyble before vs all naked in a nette. And yet I promyse you eyther is my brayne starke blynde in dede, or ellys doth Tyndale playe blynde hobbe aboute the house. For he falleth sodainly vpon a conclusyon / towarde the profe wherof as farre as I can spye, he hath nothynge towched. And yet by the wordes of hys conclusyon he leueth vs in lyke dowte as he dyd before. For lo as though he had before well and playnely proued it/ in thys wyse he sodaynly concludeth, wyth as many dowtes as wordes. Tyndale. Wherfore the scrypture truely vnderstanden after the playne places and generall artycles of the fayth whyche thou fyndesye in the scrypture, and the ensamples that are gone before / wyll alway testyfy who is the ryght chirch. More. Who herde euer suche an other wherfore? wheruppon doth hys wherfore depende? hath he any thynge sayed yet, wheruppon it muste folowe, that the scrypture and the artycles of the fayth wyth ensamples goone before, do teche vs whyche is now the chyrche, he that seeth it let hym saye it/ for surely I se it not. And yet are also these wordes in theym selfe so blynde, that yf he sayde trewe, standynge yet of all these markes all moste euery worde bytwene these heretykes and vs in questyon, debate and controuersye/ tyll he make vs those questyons more clere eyther they or we be styll as blynd as we were, and styll fele and fumble about to fynde out the chyrche as we dyd. For fyrst where he sayd the scrypture truely vnderstanden/ haue they not brougllt that poynte in questyon. And then how meaneth he now truely vnderstanden: as the chyrche vnderstandeth it, or as heretykes? And yet are not he & we well agreed vpon that poynt neyther / but lyke wyse as that we call trewly, he calleth falsely/ so loke whom we call heretykes he calleth the chyrch, and whom we call the chyrche he calleth heretykes. <2After the playne places/>2 whych be those, and to who=me playn? the places that the tone part calleth playne, the tother calleth croked/ and those that the tone calleth darke the other [Ii] calleth open and playn. And that place that the tone sayth is playne for one thynge, the tother sayth is playne for the clene contrary. <2rhe generall artycles of the fayth/>2 whyche be those? For he woteth well that they and we be not yet agreed vppon theym. For we byleue matrymony is a sacrament/ Tyndale sayth he can hym selfe make suche a nother sacrament of a nette or a kay. We byleue that the sacrament of the auter is the very body and blood of Chryste / Tyndale sayth yt is but wyne and cake brede. Tyndale byleueth yt is lawfull (yf he byleue as he sayth) that freres may wedde nunnys/ and we byleue as all good men haue euer byleued, that suche maryagr is very vnlawfull lechery & playne abomynable bychery. What are we then the nere towarde the knowlege of the chyrche by the articles of the fayth, yf those artycles be broughte in as myche dowte as the chyrche? We seme to haue nede fyrste to fynde oute well the trew chyrche, to be sure of a trewe teacher to teache vs them, bycause saynte Poule sayth that the chyrch is the pyller & sure grounde of trouth. Nay sayth Tyndale yt shall not nede. For the generall artycles be those that thou fyndest in scrypture. Whyche thou? to whome speketh he/ for that the tone parte eyther fyndeth or weneth he fyndeth/ the tother parte sayth is not there / & when yt is shewed, yet he sayth he seeth yt not. And when the tother telleth hym that he is then very blynd/ the tother telleth hym agayne nay, but that on the tother syde hys syght rather daseth and weneth he seeth that he seeth not, and taketh one thynge for twayne. For we thynke we fynde in the scrypture that confyrmacyon, holy order, and anel- ynge, be great and holy sacramentes / Tyndale sayth we fynde yt not there. We thynke we fynde in very playne scrypture, that in the sacrament of thauter is the very blessyd body of Chryste/ Tyndale wyll yf nede requyre, not let I am sure to swere, that there ys nothynge there but cake brede. We thynke we fynde in scrypture, that men are bounden to kepe theyr holy vowys, and that freres therefore maye not wedde nunnes/ Tyndale wyll not let to say we lye all, and that so do all holy sayntes to fro Chrystes dayes hytherto, that euer sayd so byfore. How shall we now agree / what are we now the nere for thys marke? [Iiv] I wote nere also what he meaneth by enerall art cles / for we call generall articles those that ye generall chyrch byleueth/ and specyall, those that be byleued but of some specyall folke. If he wolde take yt thus, this wold ease mych of the matter. But now I can not tell whyche he calleth generall artycles. For the generall chyrch calleth those parte of the generall artycles, whyche artycles Tyndale sayth be false & no parte of the fayth at all. Yet where he sayth such generall artycles as thou fyndest in the scrypture, he muste tell vs onys agayne, whych thou. For betwene the chyrch and hys sectys yt is not fully agreed, whyche bokes be the trewe scrypture. For frere Barns sayth playne, that saynt Iamys pystle is none of his. And frere Luther sayth the same, and setteth not mych therby, though he wyste well yt were his in dede/ and so the sectes take not all for scrypture, that the catholyque chyrche dothe. Nowe where he speketh of the samples gone afore/ he muste bothe tell vs whych ensamples he meaneth, and apply those ensamples also to his present purpose. And when he hath so done/ then shall ye well see that they shall as all his other markes do, but yf we byleue the comen knowen catholyque chyrche, shew ellys no certaynty of any chyrche at all/ but one chyrche to one sorte and a nother chyrch to a nother, and fynally as many sundry chyrches, as there be sondry sectes of heretyques. And syth not onely no secte agreeth with other, but almost also no man amonge theym all wyth other: all Tyndales markes be so dyuerse to so many, ys they must nedes shewe almost as many dyuerse chyrches, as there are gone owte of the knowen catholyke chyrche not onely dyuerse sectes, but also dyuerse menne. And agaynst this hath Tyndale none euasyon that can well serue hym/ but onely one. And that is, yf he saye that he meneth all his doutfull wordes to be expowned by him selfe/ that is to saye, that he meaneth by scrypture well vnderstanden, the scrypture so vnder- standen as hym selfe vnderstandeth yt/ and by playne placys, those places that he calleth playne hym selfe/ and by generall artycles, those artycles that he calleth generall hym selfe/ & that he calleth founden in scrypture, all those artycles and onely those, [Ii] that he sayth he fyndeth there hym self/ and ensamples by fore gone, those ensamples onely that hym selfe lyste to assygne, and so applyed as hym selfe lyste to applye them. And surely yf he meane thus/ thys wyll sone set an ende in the mater, and shortely ceace all the stryfe, yf all folke agree to folow hym/ and ellys be we styll yet at as greate stryfe as we were before. And yet yf he so mene, what nedeth he so longe processe? For then amounteth all hys tale to no more, but as though he myghte saye, wyll ye knowe whyche is the very chyrch? Surely the very chyrche is euyn whych so euer chyrch my selfe lyste to tell you. And this were ye wote well soone and shortely sayde, and were a very godly conclusyon. But now goeth he ferther after the fasshyon of an olde englyssh balad that beginneth, The ferther I go the more behynde. For now in dylatynge and declarynge of hys conclusyon, he addeth one thynge, as the fynall openynge of all in the ende, that vtterly marreth all his mater. And therfore shall ye now here all the remanaunt of thys chapyter at onys. Tyndale. Though the pharyseys succeded the patryarches and prophetes, and had the scrypture of them/ yet they were heretykes and fallen frorn the fayth of them and theyr lyuynge. And Cryste and his discyples and Iohan the Babtyste, departed from the phariseys whiche were heretykes, vnto the ryght sense of the scrypture, and vnto the fayth and lyuynge of the patryarkes and prophetes and rebuked the pharyseys. As thou seyst how Cryste calleth them hypocrytes, dysimulers, blynd gydes, and paynted sepulchres. And lohan called them the generacyon of vipers and serpentes. Of Iohan thangell sayd vnto hys father Luke.I. He shall turne many of the chyldren of Israell vnto theyr lord god/ whiche yet before Iohan byleued after a fleshely vnderstandynge in god, and thoughte theym selues in the ryghte waye. And he shall tourne the hartes of the fathers vnto theyr chyldren. That is he shall wyth his prechynge and trewe inter, pretynge of the scrypture, make suche a spyrytuall herte in the chyldren as was in theyr fathers Abraham Isaac and Iacob. And he shal turne the dysobedyent vnto the obedyence of the ryghtuouse, and prepare the lorde a perfecte people. That is, them that had sey vp a ryghtuousnes of theyr own, and were therfore dysobedyent vnto the ryghtousnes of fayth shall he conuerte from theyr blyndnesse, vnto the wysdome ofthem that byleued in god to be made ryghtuouse/ and with those fathers shall he gyue the chyldren egles eyes to spye out Cryst and hys ryghtewysnes, and to forsake theyr owne, and so to become perfect. And after the same maner, though our popyshe ypocrytes succede Cryste [Iiv] and his apostles and haue theyr scrypture/ yet they be fallen from the fayth and lyuynge of them, and are heretykes, and had nede of a Iohan Baptyste to conuerte them. And we departe from them vnto the trew scrypture, and vnto the fayth and lyuynge therof, and rebuke them in lyke maner. And as they whiche departe from the fayth of the true chyrche are heretykes/ euen so they that departe from the chyrche of heretykes and false fayned fayth of ypocrytes, are the true chyrche/ whiche thou shalte alwaye knowe by theyr fayyh examyned by the scrypture, and by theyr professyon and consent to lyue accordynge vnto the lawes of god. More. Lo good chrysten reders, here hath Tyndale onys agayn tolde vs oute at length, the tale that he tolde vs byfore of the synagoge, the Iewes, the scrybes, and the pharysyes, that were as lie sayth all waxen nought/ and that therfore was sent saynt Iohan Baptyst to couerte them to the fayth ofthe olde fathers. And so he sayth that hym selfe and hys felowes departe from the catholyque chyrch, whych he calleth the popes dyscyples, as from folke fallen from the faith and lyuynge of Cryste and his apostles. And he sayth that they therfore go from the catholyke chyrche vnto the trew scrypture, and vnto the fayth and lyuynge therof, and do rebuke the catholyque chyrche and the clergye therof, in lyke maner as saynte Iohan Baptyst dyd rebuke the syna- goge and the scrybes and the pharysyes. And therfore he concludeth, that lykewyse as the knowen catholyke chyrch is departed as he sayth from the trew chyrch, and therfore is a chyrche of heretyques: euen so hym selfe and hys felowes bycause they departe from the catho- lyque chyrche, whyche he sayth be heretyques, are the very trew chyrche. And then sheweth he certayne markes by whych euery man may well perceyue tllat they be so. And thus fynyshetll lle this chapy- ter of his solucyon vnto the fyrst reason. Whych reason proueth that hym selfe and his felowes coulde not be the very chyrche, bycause they go oute therof / but that the very chyrche is all way that companye that styll remayneth in yt/ contrary to whyche reason his solucyon here concludeth, eyther that they whych be gone out be the chirch, and they that abyde be the heretikes, or ellis that the knowen catholyque chyrche is gone fyrste out and therfore heretykes/ and then these that we call heretyques be gone out of the knowen catho- lyke chyrche, in suche wyse that they be the very chyrche. [Ki] And therfore syth he hath fyrste brought his processe to a blynde conclusyon, and then hath at last declared his conclusyon thus, & hath fynally brought all vnto this passe in the ende: let vs a lytle examyne his wordes and consydre them well/ and ye shall I waraunt you very wel perceyue, that when his wordes be well syfted, men shall fynde lytle fyne flowre in theym, but all very musty branne not worthy so myche as to fede eyther horse or hogges. Fyrste as touchynge the great parte of his tale, his resemblynge of the catholyque chyrche to the synagoge, and the clergye to the scrybes & the pharysyes/ I haue answered hym a lytle before, and also to the lykenynge of hym selfe and his felowes to Cryste and his apostles. And there I shewed vppon al partes some suche dyfferences betwene them, that I euen there haue suffycyently tourned ouer all Tyndales tale agaynste his owne purpose, as euery man may se that lyste to tourne a few leuys backe & loke theron. Now syth he goth agayn vppon that mater wyth saynt Iohan Baptyst/ he must fyrste proue vs that the catholyke chyrche that now is, hath loste the fayth of Cryste. Wherof I haue shewed hym the contrary, but yf that he proue that all the olde holy doctours and sayntes had lost yt to. For the knowen catholyque chyrch haue styll the byliefe of the same necessary artycles, that the olde holy sayntes of euery age agreed and consented in, agaynste the sectes of these heretykes. Which is as I haue shewed, the very cause wherfore these heretykes can not bere theyr honour. And then must Tyndale not onely ieste & rayle vpon the chyrch that now is, but vppon all the chyrche that hath ben thys fyftene hundred yere byfore. Let vs now come then to this new saynt Iohan the Baptyste, that is to this new prophete whom god hath nowe sente at laste to call the worlde to the ryght byliefe and the ryght lyuynge agayn/ that is to say saynt Luther the fore goer of these new Chrystes, that is to wyt holy Huyskyne and holy Swynglius, and such other. I wote well when saynt Iohan the Baptyst cam, he was prophecyed of byfore, bycause the people shold by these prophecyes knowe hym and geue the better eare vnto hym. And nowe the worlde beynge farther oute of frame & farre lenger walked wronge, then they were at the commyng of saynte Iohan/ god wolde of lykelyhed when he wolde send [Kiv] thys new baptyste saynt Luther, geue the world warnyng byfore his commynge that his doctryne myght be the better lyked, by that hys person were by prophecy fore knowen and marked. For ellys were there great perell, leste the people ys had thorow false doctryne so longe bene led awry, byleuyng alway to be saued well inough wyth such dyssolute lyuynge, as the worlde had thorowe false doctryne contynued so many hundred yere togyther/ were not now sodaynly lykely to gyue eare to the sore and strayghte and harde doctryne of suche an holy spyrytuall man as holy frere Luther is/ so fully fastened all vppon the spyryte, and so farre abhorrynge from all flesshely workes, that he wold neuer haue wedded the nonne, nor onys haue layed hys spyrytuall handes vppon her flesshely face, had he not fyrst felte & founden her frome the too to the chynne, turned all into fysshe. And therfore if thys yong saynt Iohan Baptyst the fore goer of these new Crystes, and all theyr new apostles nowe sent by god in so great a message, and for so greate a purpose, lyke to fynde the worlde so full of flesshely folke, that suche a spyrytuall man must nedes ,o fynde mych resystence: surely god caused hym to be prophecyed of as the tother olde saynt Iohan Baptyst was. And therfore yf Tyndale wyll haue Luther taken now for a newe saynt Iohan/ as of the old saynt Iohan it was of olde prophecyed by the mouth of Esaie, that he sholde be a voyce of one cryenge in desert, Make redy the waye of our lorde, make strayght the pathes of our god in wyldernesse: so muste Tyndale now tell vs by what olde prophete god hath prophecyed, that he wolde in the later dayes when the fayth were sore decayed, and cheryte greately cooled, rere vppe a frere that sholde wedde a nonne, and frome an harlottes bedde steppe vp into the pulpette and preche. For but yf he proue hys authoryte the better, eyther by prophecye, or by meruelouse myracle/ it wylbe longe of lykelyhed ere euer any wyse man wene, that god wold euer sende any suche abomynable beste, to turne the worlde to the ryghte way, and make a perfyte people. Now where Tyndale sayth to make vp hys mater with in thys wyse, <2we departe fro them vnto the trewe scrypture, and vnto the fayth and>2 <2lyuynge therof and rebuke them/>2 in lyke maner he bryngeth forth now for hys parte another maner thyng in dede then [Ki] euer he spake of yet. For he sayde wythin thre lynes before, that we haue the scrypture of Cryste and hys apostles, and are for all that fallen from the fayth and lyuynge of them, and are become heretikes, and therfore haue nede of Iohan Baptyste to conuerte vs. Now syth we haue as Tyndale hyrn selfe here confesseth vs to haue the scrypture of Cryste and hys apostles: whyther wyll Tyndale go frome vs to seke the trewe scrypture? Taketh he the scrypture of Cryst and hys apostles for a false scrypture? He wyl of lykelyhed leue the chrysten countrees and the scryptures of Cryste, & gete hym into Turkay and take hym to Machomettes alcharon, and call that the trewe scrypture/ or ellys hath Luther and he some other scrypture in close, whyche he calleth here the trewe scrypture. And surely so it semeth they haue. For I am very sure that by our scrypture whyche hym selfe here confesseth for the scrypture of Cryste & hys apostles, he shall neuer whyle he lyueth be able to proue frere Luthers lechery any good lawfull matrymony. And where he sayth he goeth from vs to the faythe and liuynge therof/ he muste nedes meane some fayth and lyuynge that is allowed by that same trewe scrypture that he speketh of/ that is as it semeth by hys wordes, none of Crystes scrypture nor of hys apostles. And therfore when so euer he luste hereafter to leue of our scryptures, that is as he confesseth the scrypture of Chryste and hys apostles, and medle no more wyth them, as it were well done he dyd not, & onys I wene he wyll not in dede/ but wyll for theyr false fayth and fylthy lyuynge laye forthe some newe scrypture of theyr owne, to whyche he sayth they go nowe, and whyche he calleth the trewe scrypture:. we wyll then aske hym wherby he can proue theyr new founde scrypture more trewe then the scrypture of Cryste and hys apostles, which hym selfe confesseth to be wyth the catholyke chyrche/ and whyche as it hath alwaye bene therwyth, so shall alwaye remayne therwyth after Tyndale and all that euer wyll walke oute thereof to seke theym selfe some new. Then sayth he farther, <2And we rebuke them in lyke maner/>2 that is to saye that saynte Luther, saynte Huchyns, saynt Huyskyns, and saynte Swynglius, in lyke wyse rebuke the catholyque chyrche, as saynte Iohan Baptyste rebuked the synagoge of the Iewes. [Kiv] But now muste Tyndale remembre fyrste, that though we were all as well worthy to be rebuked as euer was any of them/ not for our lyuynge onely, but for our bylief also: yet were not these bestes such men as yt myght so well become in lyke maner to rebuke vs, as yt myght saynte Iohan Baptyste to rebuke the Iewes/ both for that he was an holy man and fawtelesse, and therfore metely to fynde and rebuke fautes / and also bycause he was specyally sent by god to rebuke fautes/ where as these men be fauty and fylthy them selfe, and therfore vnmete to rebuke other mennys fautes/ nor be not sent by god aboute the mendyng of mennys bylyefe or lyuyng, but specy- ally sent by the deuyll to marre mennys fayth and all good lyuyng to, both with theyr false poysened heresyes, and wyth thexample of theyr bolde open defended lechery so horryble and abomynable byfore the face of god, whose holy sacrament of wedloke they defowle shamfully wyth theyr vow brekyng bychery, that neuer was there bestely wrech byfore theyr myserable dayes so shamelesse yet, that euer durste for shame be sene to attempte the lyke. And besyde this these folke rebuke vs not in lyke maner. For saynt Iohan Baptyste rebuked the vices of the Iewes, not wyth wordes onely but specyally wyth the sample of his owne vertuous liuyng/ where as these rebukers of oure lyuynge, lyue theym selge at the leste wyse as euyll as we. Saynt Iohan also preached penaunce for synne/ but these felowes kepe styll theyr owne synnys them selfe, and call them vertue, and auow the breke of theyr vow for well done, and theyr lechery for matrymony, & call euyll good and good euyll, whyte blakke and blakke whyte/ & teache men to contemne penaunce, and make men abhorre confessyon, and thynke that lytle sorow suffyseth, and satys- faccyon to nede none at all, but great synne to go aboute yt. Thys was not saynte Iohans maner. Saynte Iohan shewed an nother maner of penaunce, ex hortynge to confessyon and harty contrycyon. And how a penytent shold lyue he declared in his lyuyng/ not that he so neded, but to teache wyth his dede that he preached wyth hys worde. Saynt Iohan therfore lyued in deserte, and fasted and fore harde, and laye harde, and watched and prayed. These [Ki] folke lyue in greate townes, and fare well and faste not, no not so myche as the .iii. golden frydayes / that is to wyt the frydaye nexte after Palme sondaye, and the frydaye nexte afore Easter daye, and good frydaye/ but wyll eate flesshe vppon all thre, and vtterly loue no lenton faste nor lyghtly no faste ellys, sauynge breke faste, and eate fast, and drynk fast, and slepe faste, and luske faste in theyr lecherye, & then come forth and rayle faste. Thys was not the maner of rebukyng ys saynt Iohan vsed. And therfore Tyndale sayth vntrewe when he sayth they rebuke vs after the same maner that saynt Iohan dyd the Iewys. But now knytteth Tyndale all the mater vp/ and shortely sheweth in the ende of this chapyter euyn in a few wordes, the thynge that he hath made vs gape after all thys whyle, sythe the begynnynge of hys whole boke, that is to wytte whyche is the very chyrche. For lo syr thus he sayth. Tyndale. And as they whyche departe from the fayth of the trewe chyrche are heretykes/ euyn so they whyche departe from the chyrche of here- tykes and fals fayned fayth of ypocrites, are the trew chyrche. More. Lo good chrysten readers after longe worke at laste, Tyndale hath here in few wordes shewed you whyche is the very trewe chyrche/ that is to saye as many as departe out of the chyrche of heretykes. But hath not Tyndale now brought vs euyn in to the same dowte agayne, hath not all our questyon bene all this whyle, whyche is the trewe chyrche / in whyche questyon is euer more included thys questyon, whych be heretykes/ consyderynge that the questyon is asked for none other cause then onely to knowe whyche be the heretykes that are the counterfeted chyrches. And now gyueth Tyndale suche a counsayle, as yf one that coulde no good skylle of money and were sette to be a receyuour, wolde aske hym counsayle how he sholde do to be sure alwaye to take good money/ and Tyndale wold aduyse hym to se well that he toke no badde. And then yf he sayd agayne, ye M. Tyndale but I praye you teche me then how I may be sure that I take no badde. Mary wold Tyndale say agayne, for that shall I teche the a way sure inough, that neuer shall deceyue the yf thou do as I bydde the. What is that I pray you? Mary loke in any wyse that [Kiv] thou take none but good. Suche a good lesson lo dyd the tylar onys teache the mayde, how she sholde bere home water in a syue and spyll neuer a droppe. And when she brought the syue to the water to hym to lerne yt/ he bade her do no more but ere euer she put in the water, stoppe faste all the holes. And then the mayde laughte and sayde that she coulde yet teache hym a thynge that a man of his crafte had more nede to lerne. For she coulde teache hym how he sholde neuer fall, clymed he neuer so hygh, all though men toke away tlle lader from hym. And wllen he longed to lerne ys poynt to saue his nekke wyth/ she bode hym do no more but euer se surely to one thynge, that is to wytte, that for any haste he neuer come downe faster then he went vppe. Now such a good sure lesson Tyndale teacheth vs here. For nowe to make vs sure alwaye whyche is the chyrche, he telleth vs that they be the chyrche that come from heretyques/ where as the very trew chyrche standyng in questyon, heretykes, that is to saye the counterfete false chyrche, muste nedys stande in the lyke questyon, and be as doutefull as the tother. And therfore hath Tyndale in this tale so soyled all the doute, that he hath lefte all euen in lyke doute styll. Nowe yf Tyndale wyll saye that he hath all redy well & suffy- cyently shewed who be heretykes, in that he hath shewed whyche was onys the ryght chyrch, that is to wyt Criste and his apostles/ and that the catholyke chyrche that now is, is fallen from the fayth and bylyefe of that chyrch that then was, and so be they the heretyques/ and therfore the chyrch that was, sheweth the heretykes that be/ that is to say the chyrche of Chryst and his apostles that was the chyrch well knowen, do shewe the catholyque chyrche that now is for well knowen heretykes/ and therfore Tyndale and Luther, and all theyr felowes, syth they be a company well knowen to haue goone oute and lefte for hatered of theyr false fayth and heresyes this knowen catholyque chyrche of heretykes: yt muste nedes folow, that Luther and Tyndale, and Huyskyn, and Swynglius, and theyr company, be the very chyrche. And so this questyon surely soyled by Tyndale, and openly and playnly without any such doute remanynge therin as is spoken of byfore/ and the tylar nedeth not nowe to loke to hys fete at all, he can not fall though he wolde. [Ki] Consyder now good reader that yf Tyndale make this answere (for as for other that he myght make, as helpe me god yf I saw yt, I wolde my selfe make yt for hym as effectuall as I coulde) but as I say yf he make vs thys, consyder well then that the whole effecte and pyth of this answere is nothynge elles, but that the knowen catho- lyque chyrche from whych Tyndale confesseth hym selfe that they be gone as from heretykes, and whych knowen catholyke chyrche we call the trew chyrch, be fallen from the trew fayth of Chryste & his apostles, and be by that meanes become heretyques. And in this poynte though Tyndale to blere oure yien wyth all, vse dyuerse ways to draw our myndes from the very poynt of the mater/ and to flater the temporalty, tourneth all his tale and his raylynge wordes agaynst the clergye: yet in very dede the whole bodye of the chyrche is the thynge that he heweth at, and that he calleth the heretikes. For of spyrytualty and temporalty all is one fayth/ and ofthe whole catholyque chyrche hath from the begynnyng euer ben our mater. Then consyder I say now, that where he sayth that the catholyque chyrche now is fallen from the fayth of the old chyrche of Chryste and his apostles/ we can not denye but that Tyndale so sayth. Buy then se we well and so we saye agayne and saye therin very trewe, that when Tyndale so sayth he lyeth. For ye se your selfe that Tyndale proueth thys tale but by hys bare worde, in that we byleuc not as he doth, that good workes are naught worth, and that the sacraments be gracelesse and but bare sygnes and tokens/ and yet not so myche neyther by Tyndales tale, but onely dumme ceremonyes that neyther say nor sygnyfye, and that men do wronge to worshyppe the body and blood of Cryste in the blessed sacrament, and that there is nothynge therin but very bare brede and wyne or starch in stede of brede/ & that freres may well wedde nunnys, and such other goodly thynges lyke. Whyche false artycles to be trew, he neyther hath proued nor can proue whyle he lyueth, nor all ys heretykes in this world, nor yet all the deuyls in hell. Now haue we well proued you, that in all suche poyntes we haue the selfe same fayth that Cryste and hys apostles had and tawght. And in these poyntes we proue that [Kiv] the scrypturys of them be on our parte. And yet saye we also that we be sure therof, by that that Cryste and hys apostles dyd delyuer vs these thynges by mouthe, besyde the wrytynge / by whyche we sholde also haue bene sure therof, all though they neuer hadde ben wryten/ as we be by that meane sure of some other thynges that were lefte vnwryten, and onely delyuered by Chryste to hys apostles, and by his apostles to the chyrche, and therin perpetually kept by the spyryte of god, that Cryste accordynge to his promyse sent vnto his chyrche to lede it ln to all trouth, and by his owne perpetuall assystence and presence wyth hys chyrche for euer as hym selfe promysed also. Of whyche thynges well knowen and yet vnwryten, is for ensample one, that we be bounden to byleue the perpetuall virgynyte of our lady, wherwyth I haue troubled Tyndale onys or twyse here afore/ and hym selfe whyle he labored to wynde oute, hathe so messhed and entangled hym selfe therin, that he hath in the handelynge of that one mater alone, vtterly destroyed the fundacyon of all the heresyes that they haue in all theyr whole Ragmans roll. An other ensample of the tradycions wythout wrytyng maye be the puttynge of the water in to the wyne at the masse/ wherwyth the kynges noble grace in such wyse handeled Luther, that in answerynge thervnto Luther fareth as one that were fallen frantyke, and sayth now thys now that and woteth not where he maye holde hym/ but sayeth somtyme that the water maye be lefte oute or put in as the cllyrche lyste to order. And thenne agayne he sayth that it ought to be lefte oute and not putte in, for as myche as it hath (sayth he) an euyll sygnyfycacyon, that is to wyt that the pure scrypture is mengled and watered wyth mennes tradycyons/ and therfore they sholde he sayth synge masse and consecrate with onely wyne alone, and so by lykelyhed they do therfore suche freres as wedde nonnes. But holy saynt Cypryan that blessed bysshope and very gloryous martyr/ & a man one of the beste lerned that euer wrote in Crystes catholyke chyrche, wryteth playnely.xiii. hundred ere before Luther was borne that the water must nedes in, and that Chryste put water in to it at hys owne maundy when he conse- crated and ordayned it hym selfe. And thys blessed saynte Cypryane, thought hym selfe bounden bothe so to byleue and to teche vppon the trady[Li]cyons of thapostles besyde theyr wrytynges. Thus wryteth saynte Cypryane contrary to Luthers doctryne clere. But I can let no man to byleue now whyther of theym bothe they lyste. How be it I se not greately why Luther sholde be better byleued thenne he, but yf it be bycause saynt Cypryane wolde not wedde, and Luther hathe wedded a nonne. But as I beganne to saye, remembre good reader that where as we saye that in the greate varyaunce of oure faythes, the fayth I saye of the catholyque chyrche and the fayth whyche these heretyques professe to the contrary, we proue our fayth by the scryptures/ and they saye naye, and afferme that they proue theyrs by ys scryptures, wherunto we saye naye: all the questyon for the more parte ryseth, or hath at the leste wyse euer hytherto rysen, not vppon the scryp- ture selfe, but vppon the construccyon thereof/ that is to saye not whyther the wordes were holy scrypture or no that were for scryp, ture alledged, but what was of that scrypture the trewe sense and ryghte vnderstandynge. For as for whyche was holy and autentyke scrypture and whyche not, we haue be a great whyle very well agreed/ sauyng that Luther of late and frere Barns after hym, wolde fayne putte oute saynte Iamys pystle, and saythe it hath no smacke of any apostolyque spyryte, bycause it sayth that fayth waxeth dede wythout good workes, and hath a playne place also for the sacrament of anelynge. And Fryth wolde haue out quyte the bokes of the Macha- beys, bycause it proueth for purgatory and for the intercessyon of sayntes. And now semeth Tyndale to make a secrete insinuacyon of some other scrypture than Chrystes and hys apostles / whyche other scrypture he semeth to call the trewe scrypture/ and sayth that from the catholyke chyrch whych hym selfe confesseth to haue the scryp, ture of Cryst and hys apostles, hym selfe and hys felowes goo nowe to the trewe scrypture. But now lettynge hys other new trewe scrypture alone tyll he reherse vs some therof/ euer hytherto all our debate and varyaunce hath bene about the exposycyon/ eche parte [Liv] layenge to the others charge false glosynge of the trewe scrypture. Then syth the dowte bytwene theyr fayth and oures, resteth vppon that poynt: consyder good chrysten reader that we proue that the consent of all the olde holy doctours and sayntes of euery age synnys chrystendome fyrste began vnto frere Luthers owne dayes, is vppon our parte agaynste them. And this haue I proued. What saye I, thys haue I proued? nay thys haue (I say) them selfe proued, in that theyr hed capytayne Luther prowdely reiecteth and shaketh of the sayntes wyth hys sleue lyke flyes by the whole hundred at onys/ & in one place in hys boke of Babilonica spekyng of the canon of the masse, wherin he confesseth that they stand all agaynste hym, he setteth not a rysshe by theym all, but shaketh them of all at onys, & sayth the scrypture is playn vppon hys syde though they saye all the contrary. And in thys poynt all the rable of theym folowe theyr mayster so farre, that they fall to blasphemynge of sayntes to take awaye theyr authoryte. And yet yf thys profe wyll not satysfye theym, but that they be so shamelesse as to saye yet styll that the olde holy doctours and sayntes are agaynst vs with them: let them of so many tell vs one, that euer so constrewed the scripture, that a man professynge onys vowed chastyte, was for all that at hys lybertye to wedde a vowed professed nonne. I speke of professed and vowed, bycause of suche as professe wythoute perpetuall vowys, as is the relygyous howse of saynte Gerytrude at Nyuell, and other lyke in other places. Lette theym I saye amonge all the olde holy doctours, shewe so myche as some one/ of whyche I wote well they can not fynde one amonge them all. Then consyder good chrysten reader, that syth we haue vppon our parte agaynste all theyr sectes, all the olde holy sayntes agreynge wyth vs in bylyefe, though we be not lyke theym in lyuynge, there is no dowte but that in fayth the comen chrysten people by all these agys agreed with vs also. For how canne we knowe the fayth that in euery tyme hath bene, but by the wryters that were in euery tyme, syth we can not now speke with the men. [Ji] Fynally good chrysten reders vppon these thynges it foloweth, that we proue well and suffycyently, that there is not an olde chyrche of Cryste and hys apostles, & an other newe chyrche now/ but one whole chyrche from that tyme to thys tyme in one trewe fayth con- tynued. And so is it playnely proued false all the fundacyon of Tindals whole tale. And as for any thynge that hym selfe proueth/ hys wordes that he wold were taken for so playne to shewe vs whyche is the chyrche, leueth vs as I sayed in lyke dowte as we were/ sauynge where they shold proue hym & his company the chyrche, they proue nowe clerely wyth thys, that he confesseth Cryste & hys apostles to haue ben the chyrch/ and then this that we proue therto by all the holy doc- tours bokes of euery age before, that the catholyke chyrche hath now the same fayth styll, and Tyndale and hys felowes ys contrary; Tyndals owne tale I saye wyth these thynges set therto, proue Tyn- dale and all his felowes heretykes, and the knowen catholyke chyrche to be the very chyrche of Cryste. And here ye se well good reders, I myghte of hys chapyter make an ende. But in good fayth Tyndals wordes well wayed, haue so many mery folyes in them, that I can not yet holde my fyngers from them. For I requyre you for goddes sake onys agayne consyder hys wordes well. Tyndale. As they which depart from the fayth of the true chyrch are heretykes / euen so they that departe from the chyrche of heretykes and false fayned fayth of ypochrytes, are the trewe chyrche. More. I haue in good fayth good hope, that there shall not lyghtely so meane a wytted man rede his wordes here, but that he shall meruayle myche where Tyndals wytte was when he wrote those wordes. For euery chyld may se perde that these two thynges be not lyke/ that is to wytte the goynge out of the trewe chyrche of Cryste, and the goyng out of the false chyrche of heretykes. For the trewe chyrche of Cryste is but one. And the false chyrches of heretykes be many. And therfore though euery man that goth from the [Liv] faith out of that one trew chyrch of Crist, must nedes be an heretyke, bycause he can not so go out but by heresye/ it foloweth not that in lyke wyse euery man that goeth oute of the chyrche of heretykes, goeth into the trewe chyrche of Cryste, by the trewe fayth agayne / for as mych as of many chyrches, he maye go out of one into another/ and so ye se well they do. And therfore Tyndale speketh false Englysh when he sayth the chyrche of heretykes. For they neyther be any one chyrch, nor haue any one chyrche ouer them all, so specyall that it maye be by a certayne specyall preemynens in respecte of the remanaunt called the chyrche. Now that a man maye go out of a false chyrche of heretykes and yet not into the trewe chyrche of Cryst/ Tyndale maye well perceyue by two samples of two specyall heretykes of two contrary condycyons/ that is to wytte one heretyke of olde called Berengarius, and an other of new called wyllyam Hychyn. Berengarius fell fyrst into that fals heresye agaynste the blessed sacrament of the aulter, that he affermed and helde that there is not in it the very body of Cryste, nor nothynge but onely very brede, and gathered hys chyrche of his heresye togyther. But afterwarde he better remembred hym selfe, and reuoked that heresye, and fell from that heresy into an other/ not fully so farre in falshed but yet a false heresye to/ that is to wytte that heresye that Luther holdeth now, that in the sacrament though he confessed to be the very body of Cryste, yet he helde that there remayned and abode styll very brede to therwyth. And thus in Berengarius may Tyndale well perceyue that a man may go from a false chyrche of heretykes, and yet not strayt into the trewe chyrche of Cryste. Tyndale maye also perceyue thys poynte well by the tother new heretyke wyllyam Huchyn, whych fyrste fell to the secunde heresye that was of the twayne the lesse euyll, that is to wyt the heresye that Luther holdeth, that in the sacrament is bothe the very body of Cryst and very brede. But now eyther bycause he longed euer to falle vnto the wurste, as longe as he myght fynde any wurse then other, or ellys bycause he fauored frere Huskyn, bycause his own name was Huchyn/ he fell in that poynt from Luthers heresye to hys, and affer- meth now that there is in the blessed sacrament nothynge ellys but brede / and iesteth and scoffeth vpon it, and dysputeth in hys blasphemy that it shold [Li] be but starche. And thus where the olde heretyke Berengarius began at the worste, and from that fell to lesse euyll: this new heretyque Huchyn goth contrary way, begynnynge at the lesse euyll and fallynge from that. nto the worse. And therfore is mych the lesse lykely to folow ys tother in one poynt, in whyche I praye god he may. For Berengarius yet after all thys, reuoked his later heresye to, and lyued longe after, and dyed an holy vertuouse man. But by these ensamples I say Tyndale may well perceyue that though he go strayt out of a chirch of heretikes, yet yt shall not folow ys he shall go into ye trew chyrch/ syth he maye by the waye steppe into a nother false chyrche, of whyche there be so many besyde. For all the heretyques be not gathered into one chyrch/ but as the chyrche of Cryste is but one, so be there of those a vengable many/ and be not comprehended vnder any one chyrch, sauyng onely that as the trew chyrch is the chyrch of god, so be all the false called the chyrch of ys deuyll, whyche is ynge as the scripture sayth ouer all the chyldren of pryde, whyche pryde is as saynte Austayne sayth the very moder of heretyques. Now yf yt be trewe that Tyndale here sayeth, that the chyrche whyche we call the very chyrche/ that is to say, yf yt be trew that the catholyque knowen chyrche, be as Tyndale here taketh yt the chyrche of heretyques/ and ys fayth therof be as he also calleth yt, a false fayned fayth of ypocrytys/ and therfore lyke as thys chyrche bycause yt is as he sayth comen awaye from the trew chyrche of Cryste and hys apostles, is the chyrche of false heretykes/ so they that come awaye fro this chyrch of heretykes, and this false fayned fayth of ypocritys, be the trew chyrch: then must yt nedys folowe, that all the sectys whyche are sprongen in Boheme, and in Saxony, & in some other partes of Almayn, be the very trew chyrche, and the trew faythfull byleuers. Now syth Tyndale hath brought yt vnto this, I wold fayn know one thyng of hym/ syth it is so that all those sectys be the trew chyrch and very faythfull folke: how happeth yt that eche of theym calleth other false shrewes, and sayth trew in that poynt and in allmoste nothynge ellys? And syth he hath brought yt vnto this/ how can his fynall wordes also stande wyth this conclusyon, wyth whych [Liv] wordes he wolde seme to proue his conclusyon trew? For thus he endeth this chapyter. Tyndale. Whiche thou shalye alwaye knowe by theyr fayyh examyned by the scrypyure, and by theyr professyon and consent to lyue accordynge vnto yhe lawes of god. More. Nowe consyder good reder whether these tokens do make vs know, that all the sectes that are departed fro the catholyke chyrche, be the trew chyrche. How can theyr fayth examyned by the scripture, or how can theyr professyon to lyue accordyng to the lawis of god, make vs perceyue that all they be the trew chyrch, bycause they come from the fayth of oures whych Tyndale calleth false and fayned/ where as they beyng departed from owres, do amonge them selfe neyther in fayth nor in professyon of lyuynge any wyse consent or agree? For fyrste in Boheme, what a sorte of dyuerse false faythys be there, and what dyuersyte and contraryete in the professyon of theyr lyuynge. Then in Saxony and in some partes of Almayn, what a nother sorte is there of sundry maner sectis, as well in artycles of the fayth and bylyefe, as in the vnmanerly maners and lawles lawes of lyuynge, wherof ye may perceyue a great many by the boke of M. wyllyam Barloo, that longe was conuersaunt in the countrey/ whych detestynge thabomynacyon that he founde amonge theym, hath of a ryght godly zele geuen vs knowlege of theym. And now by Tyndales tale they be the trew chyrch euery chone, and the lawe of god shall allowe all theyr lyuynges as bestely as they be, and the scrypture of god shall vp holde and maynteyn all theyr belyefes as dyssonaunt and as repugnaunt as they be eche to other, and as malycyousely false as all the whole sorte be both one and other. For all this lo yet shall we by the law of god and by the scrypture of god compared with all theyr bestely lyuynges and all theyr false repugnaunt faythes, well and clerely know sayth Tyndale, that all they be the very trew chyrch of Cryste, bycause they can be none other, for as myche as they be come away from the fayned fayth of ours. And so ye may se that Tyndale affyrmeth now not onely those abhomynable heresyes that he taught before, but [Li] all those also that the Anabaptistes haue added vnto them synnys. And so now be the trewe chyrche wyth hym and agree wyth scrypture and wyth the lawe of god, all those that say the bapty- synge of chyldren is voyde, and they that say that there ought to be no rulers at all in crystendome, neyther spyrytuall nor temporall/ and that no man shold haue any thynge proper of his owne, but that all landes and all goodes ought by goddes lawe to be all mennys in comen, and that all women ought to be comen to all men, as well the nexte of kynne as the farthest straunger, & euery man husbande to euery woman, and euery woman wyfe vnto euery man/ and then fynally that our blessed sauyour Crist was but onely man and not god at all. And in good fayth I neuer thought other yet from sone after the begynnynge, but that when these folke fell onys to these horryble heresyes whyche Tyndale in his bokes hath taught vs, they shulde not fayle to fall sone after vnto these other to/ of whych the very worste is not worse yet then dyuerse of those that Tyndale taught vs byfore / nor lyghtly can there none be worse, excepte onely one, that were to say there is no god at all. And as helpe me god I veryly fere they shall fall vnto that at laste. And then rekenynge neyther vppon god nor deuyll nor immortalyte of theyr owne soules, but iestynge and scoffynge that god is a good felow, & as good a soule hath an oule as a cukkoo, and when thou seest my soule hange on the hedge then hurle stonys at yt hardly and spare not/ and as Tyndale sayth when thou spekest with saint Peter, then pray hym to pray for the: thus rekenynge vpon nothynge but onely vppon this world, & therfore rekkyng for nothyng but onely for ys body, they shall at the laste fall in a new rage, & gather them selfe to gyther, and shall but yf theyr malyce be the better repressed, to make other maner maystryes then euer they made yet/ wherof the myschiefe shall fall in theyr own nekkes. But yet yf they may be suffred onys to ryse/ all the myschyefe wyll not fall in theyr owne nekkes alone, but mych harme shall happe vppon many good mennys heddes ere these rebellyous wreches be well repressyd agayne. Besyde all this, consyder well good reder, that yf yt be trew that Tyndale here teacheth vs for the fynall conclusyon of all this chapyter/ that is to wit yf it be trew that all they that go oute of the catholyke chyrche, be the trewe [Liv] chyrche/ then syth the sectes that are departed oute of thys catholyque chyrche, be companyes knowen well ynough, ye se nowe very well that here hath Tyndale sodenly des- troyed and pulled downe the chyrche that all thys whyle he went about to byeld vppe/ whyche was as fro the begynnynge ye haue herde, a chyrche ofvnknowen electys. For he hath as ye now perceyue, brought al to a knowen chyrch, or rather to twenty knowen chyrches/ of whych euery one is by all the remenaunt knowleged to be knowen for false/ and then bothe in abomynable false bylyefe and brutyshe bestely lyuynge all the whole rable suche, that obstynately lyue therin, and deuelyshly also dye therin, that euery man may well perceyue they can not all be goddes electys. And thus hath he sodaynly pulled here downe to ground, the chyrche vnknowen of his onely electys, that he hathe good crysten reder all this whyle so bysely gone aboute to sette vppe. Now yf Tyndale when he shall perceyue howe blyndely the deuyll hath led hym here aboute, and made hym to fall in the dyche with his docer, & breke all his eggys, & quayle thus all his conclusyon, wolde for shame seke any farther shyfte, & say that I mysse take hys wordes, & that hym self ment in them some other maner thynge: I dowte not but euery wyse reder wyll consyder well what he wyll saye, and not be so far ouer sene as to byleue hym at his onely word. One thynge I am very sure, that I haue in this chapyter lefte neuer a word of his vnwryten to hyde his entent, or depraue his purpose wyth all/ but haue truely and playnely rehersed them euery one. By all whyche yt appereth playnly, that he both sayth and meaneth as I haue shewed you/ and therupon that these folyes of his that I haue de- clared you, are playnely deduced vppon his own wordes whyche I haue rehersed you. How be yt yf he wyll for auoydyng of the shame, surmyse yt he ment some other thyng: I can not well ymagyn what yt myght be that he myght dyuyse to say that he ment. For yf he wold say that he ment not, that all the sectys that go oute of the catholyque chyrche whych he calleth the heretykes be the trew chyrche/ but some one of them, whyche one we sholde perceyue well from the remenaunt by theyre fayth examyned by scrypture, & by the professyon of theyr lyuynge after the law of god: this can he not saye that he [Mi] ment/ for he nameth no one secte of them all, but sayth generally that they whyche departe out of the chyrche of heretykes whyche he calleth the comen knowen catholyke chyrche, be the trew chyrche. And therfore he can not escape so. He wold also yf he had so ment, haue specyally commended some one. And also there is not one of them all whose fayth eyther agreeth wyth the scrypture, or the professyon of theyr liuyng with the law of god/ but yf Tyndale call as in dede he doth, a godly professyon for freres & nonnes to fall from the chastyte of theyr professyon/ and lyke as they professed before to serue god in chastyte, so to professe them self from hense forth to serue the deuyll in sacrylege, and make hym a dayly sacryfyce of theyr owne bestely bodyes wyth incestuous lecherye. Fynally yf he be so shamelesse as to say that he ment none of them all, but some suche vnknowen as hym selfe woteth not whom, that is gone out ofour chyrch, that is to wytte the knowen catholyke chyrche/ & byleueth not as we do bycause we byleue nought/ nor lyueth not as we do bycause we lyue nought/ nor goth not into any ofthose other chyrches & sectes neyther, bycause they byleue nought and lyue nought also as wel as we, but frame them selfe some fayth after the scrypture, & some kynde of lyuyng after the lawe of god by them selfe/ & that these be the very chyrche & the very electes, & all vnknowen both who they be and where they be sauing onely that alway som such there be, & knowen onely to god that hath elected them, & euery of them to hym selfe by hys felyng fayth, which yet he many tymes feleth nothynge of, as Tyndale hym selfe hath before confessed in the chapyter of the order of theyr eleccyon, & yet for all that alway feleth styll, ys thorow the felyng fayth which he ones felt, he is one of goddes good chyldern, euyn whyle he lyeth with his lemman or whyle he kylleth a good man, & that in all that whyle ys he doth such deuelysshe dedes, he doeth yet no dedely synne: yf he can for shame fynde in hys harte to say thus, this wylbe the most folysh thynge of all. For fyrst the generall maner ys he vseth where he sayth <2They thatgo >2 <2fro the chyrche ofheretykes>2 (whyche he calleth vs of the catholyke chyrch) <2be the very chyrche.>2 This generall maner of speche I say that excludeth none, restrayneth it not vnto a fewe folke onely vncertayne & vn- knowen but extendeth it vnto all folke that euer go forth from vs. And therfore he can not excuse his foly with sayeng that he ment it so. [Miv] Moreouer yf he so had ment in dede/ that had bene yet the moste foly of all. For what congregacyon were that whiche neuer were gathered togyder, nor neuer one parte wyttyngly speke wyth other/ of whych yf they mette to gyther, neuer one knoweth other. For though they knowe to gyther, as folke of acquayntaunce or kynred, or neyghbours peraduenture all of one towne or strete, ye or of one house eyther: yet can they not one knowe an other as for a member of hys owne vnknowen chyrch, that is to wytte for one of the trewe fayth and ryght lyuynge, & for a penytent synner, and fynally for a fynall electe. And all these condycions ye wote well muste those per- sons haue that Tyndale taketh for the very chyrche. Yes sayth Tyndale <2Thou shalte alwaye knowe them by they r fayth>2 <2examyned by the scrypture, and by they r professyon and consent to lyue accor->2 <2dynge vnto the lawes ofgod.>2 How is it possyble to know by these menes whyther he be a fynall electe or not? whyle he may both lye & chaunge, and say he byleueth otherwyse than he doth, or byleue here after otherwyse than he doth now. But yet consyder well here good reder, that when ye se Tyndale here go about to teche how they may be knowen/ he declareth hym selfe that of reason the chyrche muste be a chyrche knowen/ and that it were a thynge farre out of reason to haue the very chyrch vnknowen. And in thys he clerely declareth the madnesse as well of hym selfe as of Luther & Barns and them all, that wold haue the chyrch a congregacyon vnknowen / and yet labour to deuyse vs markes by all the menes they maye, wherby theyr chyrch vnknowen myghte seme to be perceyued and knowen. Now when he sayth, <2Ihou shalt allway knowe them by theyr fayth>2 <2examyned by the scrypture, and by theyr professyon and consent to lyue after the>2 <2lawe ofgod:>2 I wolde fayne wytte whych thou he meaneth. Thou lerned or thou vnlerned? Well ye wote that among the lerned, the very sense is in questyon/ and vpon the debatynge therof, aryseth all the varyaunce. Whych thou meaneth he than? Thou that art vnlerned: Thou that cannest scantely rede it, or thou that cannyst not rede it at all? When they that are lerned can not perceyue it, then thou perde ys arte vnlerned shalt perceyue it a non, & examyne and iudge by the scrypture whyche of them saye beste for theyr fayth of whom thou vnderstandest neyther nother/ but the lenger that thou hereste them dyspute vppon the scrypture but yf [Mi] thou brynge the trew fayth thyther wyth the, the lesse shalt thou there perceyue. And in mych more dowt departe shalt thou thense, then thou were in whan thou camest thyther. For as the prophete sayth, but yf ye beleue ye shall not vnderstond. And therfore for euery man lerned & vn- lerned for so farre as toucheth the necessary doctryne of trewe fayth & lyuyng, & exposycyon of scrypture that apperteyneth therto, the very fastenesse & surtye is, to reste vnto the chyrch/ whyche is as saynt Poule sayth, ys pyler & sure ground of trouth. And that can be none vnknowen chyrch, whych can neyther lerne nor teche, as they that neyther can haue precher nor herers/ as well for that one of them can not know an other to assemble aboute eleccyon & choyce, nor can haue any by successyon, syth there can be no successyon perceyued among any such of whych no parte knoweth other/ & also for that yf they neyther be of ye catholyke chyrch nor of any knowen sect, they can not be suffered to prech or lyue eyther among vs or them. And yf they be of eyther vs or them/ thenne are they of some knowen chyrch. And yf they be scatered among the chyrch & the dyuers sectes, & neyther lyue nor byleue after the doctryne of none of them all/ so longe as they so do, none of them knowyng other, so longe be they a secrete vn- knowen secte / but they neyther be chyrch nor haue chyrch, nor preste nor precher amonge them. And yf they fall after in aquayntaunce togyther & flocke to yther, and eche knowe of others bylyefe and lyuynge/ then begynne hey to be a knowen secte and a false knowen chyrche of heretykes, ycause they be gone out of the catholyke, some immedyately and parte by a meane, as those that come togyther departyng out of the dyuers, all whych before departed out of our one. In whyche one of ours, ys is to wyt in the knowen catholyke chyrch, the trewth doth nely reste, syth it well appereth as I haue before playnely proued, hat the fayth whyche was with Cryste & hys apostles, hath euer tyll contynued with vs/ which is and euer hath bene one chyrch styll contynued from the begynnyng. And therfore euer frome the begynnynge, those that haue by professyon departed out of thys chyrche, haue euer bene knowen, yf from the socyete therof for cismatikes, yf from the fayth therof, for heretykes. For as that loryous martyr holy saynt Cypryane sayth: Out of vs be they all one and not we out of them/ but euer from the begynnynge as [Miv] heretykes or scismatykes haue rysen, eyther haue they by professyon departed out, or the chyrch hath caste them out/ and the chyrche euer more hath as the very stocke contynued styll and remayned/ & the braunches so cutte of, haue fyrst or last wythered away. And so shal all these at length, when the catholyke chyrch shall abyde & emayne & stande faste with god and god faste wyth it, accordyng to goddes promyse, tyll the worlde take an ende/ and euer myracles in it and in onely it, to declare and make open that the very fayth, the very hope, and the very cheryte styll contynueth therin/ and that how syke so euer it be, & how myche dede flesshe so euer be founden in the syke and sore partes of the same, yet alyue is euer the body of thys chyrche, for in it is the soule and the spyrite / and out of the body of this knowen contynued catholyke chyrche, there is in the body of any other chyrche gone cut or caste out of thys for theyr contrary bylyefe and fayth, or for theyr rebellyous byhauour, there neyther is I saye nor can be amonge them all, as all the olde holy doctours and sayntes fully recorde & testyfye, neyther helth, lyfe, hed, nor spyryte. And therfore to fynysshe at laste thys longe chapyter of hys solucyon/ it is impossyble for Tyndale or all the world besyde, to soyle that one argument, by whych the knowen catholyke chyrch is proued to be the very chyrch of Cryst/ in that that from the begynnynge it hath euer styll bene by ordynary course of successyon kepte and contynued one/ and the olde fayth from the begynnynge (as by the bokes of holy sayntes of euery age well appereth) all waye contynued therin/ and the olde ryghte maner of interpretacyon of the scrypture, concernynge the fayth (as by the same sayntes holy bokes appereth) all waye contynued therin/ and euer more gloryouse myracles from the begynnyng incessauntely perseueryng therin/ and that it was promysed that it sholde euer contynue tyll the worldes ende, and god therin wythout any other newe chyrche of god to succede the chyrche of Cryste in thys worlde, as it was promysed and pro- phecyed that the chyrch of Cryste sholde succede & put away the synagoge of Moyses/ & that all other chyrches and sectes of whyche euery one calleth it selfe the ryght chyrch, be some at one tyme some at an other arysen & rered them self agaynst this chyrch, & therfore bothe gone out & caste out of thys chyrche, & theyr so many dyuers fay[Mi]thes to the old contynued fayth euery one dyuersly contrary, and all theyr interpretacyons of holy scrypture concernyng fayth and good lyuyng dyuersly, contrary to the doctryne and exposycyons of all the olde holy doctours and sayntes, as I haue often declared you/ or ellys let Tyndale as I haue desyred hym onys or twyse I trowe all redy, tell vs some one of all them that teacheth vs with the scripture or wyth out scrypture eyther, that freres may wedde nunnys. These thynges I saye beyng thus, that the very chirch can be but one, and muste endure as longe as the worlde lasteth, and can in this worlde haue no new chyrche to succede yt as the synagoge hadde/ and then that all these chyrches of these sectis be rysen and gone oute of the catholyke chyrch, and yt contynueth styll: yt is impossyble I saye for Tyndale or all the worlde besyde, to soyle the reason and auoyde yt, but that onely this catholyqiie chyrche is the very trew chyrche of Cryste/ and all the chyrches of sectys at sundry tymes gone out therof, be chyrches of heretyques and scysmatykes and very chyrches of the deuyll. And thus good crysten reders haue I playnely proued you, that Tyndale and his felowes and all these sundrye sectys, nor yet any one  of theym all, be not as he blasphemeth and scoffeth to be resembled vnto Cryste & his apostles/ as gone out of the catholyque chyrche, in lyke maner as they went out of the synagoge that then shulde haue an ende, to begynne a new that whyle the worlde lasted shold neuer haue ende, nor any chyrch be trew saue yt self But ys Tyndale and all his felowes & all theyr sectys, be so gone oute and put out of this catholyke chyrch of Cryste, as Lucyfer and his felowes by pryde fyrste departed out and by power was after put oute of the chyrche of god in heuen. And lyke wyse also as Cain was by god put oute of the chyrche of good folke, for his obstynate malyce in erth. And lyke wyse as Chore, Dathan, and Abyron wyth theyr felows, made a secte of scysmatyques and bent away fro the chyrche of Moyses and Aaron in deserte/ for whyche they went quykke vnder erth, & as yt semeth hell swaloweth them vppe. And lyke wyse also as the ten trybys of Israell departed wyth Hieroboam from theyr very kynge Roboam the sonne of Salomon/ wyth whyche rebellyous departynge from theyr kynge, all be it they were not well hande[Miv]led wyth hym, but were thretened and put in fere of oppressyon, yet was god as saint Cypriayn by scrypture proueth greatly dyspleased wyth them/ and his very chyrche moste specyally then remayned in the smaller companye the two trybys onely, from whyche the.x. were gone. And these heretykes be out of the catholyke chyrche in lyke maner, as the great company of Crystes dyscyples went from hym when he was aboute to teache them the fayth of hys very bodye and blood in the sacrament of the aulter/ for whyche and from whyche Huchyn, Huyskyn, and Swynglius, be now gone awaye to. And yet as the very chyrche remayned in these few that abode and contynued / so shall the very chyrche euer abyde and contynue in these few that perseuer in the stokke, be yt mynished and mynced neuer so smale/ and alway those that go therfro, shalbe but wythered braunches and chyrches of heretykes and scysmatykes, be they neuer so great nor so many. These heretykes departe also from the catholyke chirch in suche wyse as Iudas departed fro ys chyrch of Criste at the maunday souper, when he went to betray the hed of that chyrche, and vterly to dyssolue the body. And lyke wyse do all these sectes of heretykes, which in ys poynt do more then veryly represent the scrybes and pharysyes, whom saynte Iohan called the generacyon of vypars. For as the yonge vyper serpentes gnaw out theyr mothers bely, and those scribes and pharysyes dyd by theyr false doctryne laboure to destroye the very trew doctryne of the synagoge, whereof they were engendred: so do all these cursed serpentyne sectys of heretykes, both wyth theyr false errours and heresyes, labour to destroy the trew doctryne/ and also wyth sowynge of dyssencyon and sedycyouse scysmes, go aboute to gnaw out the very bely of theyr moder the holy catholyke chyrche. And therfore wyll they, but yf they do (as I pray god geue them grace to do) repent theyr malyce and amend, ellys vndowtely haue theyr parte wyth Iudas, and wyth suche other as I haue shewed you that departed from the trew chyrche byfore, and wyth suche other heretykes as departed also from the chyrch in the tyme of the blessed apostles after/ as were the Ebionytes that sayed Chryste was but onely man and not god, agaynste whome saynt Iohan the Euangelyst wrote his holy gospell/ and the Nycolaites whych wold haue all women in comen, agaynst whom [Mi] god speketh hym selfe in thapocalyps, whyche both heresyes be now begonne to be brought vppe agayne amonge the sectys of these new heretyques in Almayne/ whyche sectes Tyndale calleth the very trewe chyrche of Cryste, bycause they departe onely and go from ours/ where he seeth well by the olde bokes, that we haue the same fayth that thapostles had/ and hereth wyth his owne eares that they haue the same heresyes whyche thapostles dampned. So se you good readers, that the many sectes are come out of the one chyrche/ the noughty out of the good, the false oute of the trew. And Tyndale argueth the contrary way/ and therby wolde make vs wene that the good cometh euer out of the bad, and leueth the noughty behynde. And by that way shall not onely Luthers lecherous chirch be better then the catholyke chyrche of Chryst/ but also Lucyfer his chyrche of deuyls in hell, be better then the chyrch of god and hys good angelys, that Lucyfer when he fell from thense lefte styll wyth god behynde hym in the gloryouse blysse of heuyn. And thus ende I good crysten reder this boke/ in whyche euery chylde almoste that aduysedely redeth yt, maye well and clerely perceyue that Tyndales solucyon is not worth one ryshe/ but the reason that he wolde haue soyled, is and abydeth styll so myghtye stronge and inuyncyble, as a reason byfore me made by the stronge and myghty champyon the inuyncyble martyr saynte Cypryane / that by that one reason alone yt ys I dare boldelye saye, well and playnely proued that this knowen catholyque chyrche whyche Tyndale wolde impugne, dysproue, and destroye, is alone the very trewe chyrche of Chryste, whyche all the deuyls in hell shall neuer be able to pull downe/ and that these hundred sundry sectys whych Tyndale wolde haue taken for the very chyrche of Cryste, be very false heretyques all the whole rable, and synagoges of Sathan, and very chyrches of the deuyll all redy dede and vtterly destroyed in spyryte/ and but yf they returne to the catholyque chyrche agayne, wyll ellys wyth Iudas be beryed and burne in hell. Thus endeth the.vi. boke. [Miv] The.vii. boke, Here begynneth the.vii. boke in defence of the seconde reason, prouynge the knowen catholyke chyrche to be the very chyrche of Cryste. Whyche seconde reason is, that we knowe not whyche is the scrypture, but by the knowen catholyke chyrche. The defence of the seconde reason. Tyndale. AN other lyke blynde reason they haue, wherin is all theyr truste. As we come out of them and they not out of vs/ so we receyue the scrypture of them and they not of vs. How knowe we that it is the scrypture of god and trewe, but bycause they teache vs so? How can we that byleue, excepte we fyrst byleue that they be the chyrche, and can not erre in any thynge that parteyneth vnto our soules helth? For yf a man tell me of a meruelouse thinge, wher of I can haue no nother knowlege then by hys mouth onely/ how sholde I gyue credence, excepte I byleued that the man were so honest that he coulde not lye or wolde not lye? Wherfore we must byleue that they be the ryght chyrche that can not erre, or ellys we can byleue nought at all. Thys wyse reason is theyr shoteanker, and all theyr holde, theyr refuge to flyght, & chefe stone in theyr fundacyon, wheron they haue bylt all theyr lyes and all theyr myschefe that they haue wrought this.viij. hundred yeres. More. THYS reason good reader which Tindale wolde here so fayne answere and soyle, is the thynge wherwyth the kynge our souerayne lord as a most erudyte prince in hys moste famous boke of the assercyon of the sacramentes, strayned Luther so sore, that hytherto neyther hym selfe nor any companyon of hys, durste euer onys attempte any answere therunto/ tyll Tyndale now perceyuynge the kynges argument in that poynte so stronge, that euery man mych alloweth it and feleth it for inuincible, waxeth for angre so starke madde at last/ that he maketh his assayes and assautes here therat/ and leseth not [Ni] onely hys labour in the ende, but also by some of hys own argumentes, wherwyth he wolde impugne it, maketh it rather more stronge, and proueth it playne inexpugnable. But Tyndale all be it that he reherse the reason in such wyse hym selfe, that he soyleth it not afterwarde so surely as he reherseth it/ nor neuer were lyke whyle he lyueth, all though the reason had no more then he reherseth: yet doth the kynges grace agaynste Luther besydes all thys that Tyndale reherseth, put an other pyece or twayne of pytthe and strength therin. For where as in the tyme of holy saynt Austayne, suche heretykes as then were, played as these do now, denyenge the comon knowen catholyke chyrche to be the very chyrche of god, and the doctryne therof to be trewe: that blessed doctour amonge many other thynges wyth whyche he playnely confuted that folysshe heresye, sayed and affermed playnely that hym self sholde not haue byleued the gospell, but yf the authoryte of the catholyke chyrche compelled hym therunto. Thys sayenge of saynt Austayne Luther hym selfe alloweth. For though he wyll in no wyse agree, that the hole catholyke chyrch gathered to gyther in a generall counsayl, hath any authoryte or powre to make any lawes at all: yet he graunteth that the certaynty by which we knowe and be put in suretye, whyche is the very scryp- ture of god, and whyche not, a man hath hys lernyng and teachyng of that poynte by the chyrche of god, for the chyrche hath sayth Luther accordynge to the sayenge of Austayne, thys thynge geuen it of god, that it can iudge and dyscerne the wordes of god from the wordes of men. Then layed oure sayde souerayne lorde Luthers owne wordes agaynste Luthers owne heresyes, for the faythe of the catholyke chyrche, in dyuers places dyuers wayes. For syth Luther confessed that the chyrche hath that gyfte of god, that it can dyscerne the word of god from the word of man: it foloweth sayeth hys grace that those thynges whyche the chyrclle sayeth, is the worde of god vnwryten and tradycyons of the apostles, (of whyche Luther wolde none byleue, bycause they were not wryten) be the very worde of god as well as those that be wryten. And in that reason hys grace gaue Luther & Tyndale [Niv] and all theyr whole secte such a sure fall, that they shall neuer well aryse and walke vp ryght whyle they lyue agayn. For as hys hyghnes layed vnto hym, syth Luther can not saye nay but that he must byleue the chyrch when it telleth hym that these thynges god caused hys apostles to wryte/ wherfore must he not as mych byleue it, when it telleth hym These thynges god caused hys apostles to tell and teche by mouth? Then layed his hyghnes vnto Luther ferther, his owne wordes agaynst hym selfe this wyse. Luther hym selfe confesseth ys god hath gyuen the chyrche that gyfte, that it can dyscerne the wordes of god from the wordes of men. And wherfore hath he giuen the chyrch that gyfte, but bycause he wyll not suffre hys chyrch to fall into such a perylous errour, as to take the wordes of men for ys wordes of god/ Wherby men myght fall to some euyll opynyons as well in fayth as other vertuys. But so is it that by the errour of wronge takynge the sense of goddes wordes, men may fall into the lyke perell, & also to a great deale greater. For the wrytynge of man taken for the scrypture of god, myghte eyther by some conuenyent coment deuysed vpon the trewth wryten in mennes hartes, or by the playne persuasyon & confessyon of our own ignor- aunce, that the sentence were not suffyciently perceyued & vnder- standen, myght I say be conteyned & kepte from doynge any great harme. But the scrypture of god taken as it is for hys own wordes, & then vnderstonden falsely/ muste nedys caste the people into a very fals errour in stede of very trewe fayth. Now theruppon it very well foloweth, that god neuer wyll permyt & suffre hys chyrche to fall in any dampnable errour thorow mysse vnderstandyng & wrong declaracyon of ye scripture/ for as mych as by the takyng in necessary poyntes of fayth or vertue the false sen- tence for the trewe, must nedes growe mych more perell and harme, then by the takyng of mannys false wrytynge for ye trew scripture of god. By thys argument lo the kynges hyghnes vtterly confuted Luther vpon Luthers owne wordes/ & proued hym that he may neuer say nay for shame, but that in all necessary poyntes the very trew sense and exposycyon of the scrypture, is in the chyrche & the holy doctours therof Whose exposycyons as by theyr bokes appereth, openly reproue such exposycyons therof, as all these heretykes haue deuysed for the mayntenaunce of theyr heresyes. [Ni] Then layed hys hyghnesse vnto Luther hys owne wordes afore sayd yet agayn in thys wyse. Syth god hath as Luther confesseth gyuen the chyrch that gyfte, that it dyscerneth the wordes of god frome the wordes of man / Luther well sheweth hym selfe such as he is, whyle he calleth the pystle of saynt Iamys the worde of man, whyche the chyrch hath so longe dyscerned and iudged for the worde of god. Fynally the selfe same wordes of Luther as the kynges hyghnes handeleth them, fully do conclude Luther & Tyndale both, in prouyng the knowen catholyke chyrche to be the very chyrche/ whyche is now as ye knowe well, all our whole mater. For syth saynt Austayne sayth and Luther also confesseth, that the chyrch hath thys gyfte of god, that it dyscerneth the very scrypture of god from the wrytynge of man/ and in those wordes, both saynt Austayn and Luther both spake of the knowen catholyke chyrche and not of an vnknowen chyrch: yt appereth playne that both saynt Austayne and Luther afferme, confesse, & agre, that the knowen catholyke chyrch is the very chyrch/ and not that any chyrche of heretykes is the chyrche/ for to none of them god neuer gaue that gyfte of dyscresyon. For no man euer toke the scrypture bycause any of them sayd so/ but all they as they haue comen out ofthe catholyke chyrch, so haue of the catholyke chyrche receyued the scrypture/ and vppon the credence of that chyrche, haue they all byleued it/ as Tyndale can not denye, though these newe heretykes be nowe for defence of theyr heresyes, fayne to forsake some part of the scrypture to. Now good chrysten readers, consyder well I requyre you these effectuall poyntes, whych our souerayn lorde so substancyally layed vnto Luther vpon his owne wordes/ and I dowte not but your selfe shall easyly perceyue & se, that the same thynges shall stande stronge and sure/ & ouer that answere and ouerthrowe all the sub- staunce of Tyndals solucyon here. Whose wordes lette vs now loke on agayne and examyne. Tyndale. Thys wyse reason is theyr shote ancre and all theyr whole refuge, and chyefe stone in theyr fundacyon/ wheruppon they haue bylte all theyr lyes, and all theyr myschyefe that they haue wrought these .viij. hundred yeres. [Niv] More. Thys reason Tyndale here maketh very lyght, & sayth that these .viii. hundred yere the catholyke chyrche hath byelded so many lyes and so myche myschyefe thereon / by all whych tyme of .viii. hundred yeres, yf the whole catholyke chyrch haue ben in errours and heresyes as Tyndale here sayth and his mayster Martyne Luther byfore hym, then hath Chryste broken all hys promyses, by whyche he promysed to be wyth his chyrche all days to the worldes ende. For by all this.viii. hundred yeres hath Cryste hadde none other chyrche contynuynge that any man can tell of/ but yf Tyndale wyll saye yes / and when he can neither tell whyche nor where, wyll yet say styll yes, and nothyng but yes, and loke that we sholde agaynst our owne experyence vppon his bare worde byleue hym, bycause he sayth styll yes/ wyth as myche profe in his yes, as a gose hath in her hysse. Tyndale seeth well also, as ye shal after perceyue though he dyssymyle yt now/ that when he sayth this wyse reason is theyr shote ancre, this reason ys he mokketh is not onely theyres whome he wolde seme to mokke, that is to wyt the catholyque chyrch of this .viii.C. yeres/ in whych tyme haue ben men of suche holynes and vertue and now holy saynts in heuen, whose faythfull holy wrytynges condempne his faythlesse heresyes, that euery good man I dare saye wyll thynke them full vnmetely to be mokked and iested vppon by suche a folyshe felowe as this is/ whyche whyle he setteth so lytle by saynt Thomas, saynt Bonauenture, saynt Bernarde, saynte Anselme, and all such other men as haue wryten in the chyrche this.viii. hundred yere: he seeth yet well inough that the reason which he rnokketh, was made by the holy doctour saynt Austayne foure or fyue hundred yere byfore that/ and that the same holy man byelded theruppon the selfe same byeldynge, that the catholyke chyrch repayreth and kepeth vppe nowe / and whyche byeldynge these heretykes wolde now pull downe/ that is to say that god teacheth his routh as he promysed, and wyll not suffre yt damnably to erre, and for that cause wyll not suffre yt to be dysceyued in mysse takynge of the very scrypture, nor consequently for the same cause for such myssetakyng of the ryght sense and vnderstandyng therof, wherby they sholde fall in any dam[Ni]nable errour thorow the false bylyef, in any maner poynte whereof god wolde haue theym to knowe and byleue the trouthe. These are the thynges that holy saynte Austayne made that reason for, agaynste suche heretykes as Luther and Tyndale be now. Whych other dyd then as these do now, labour to make folke byleue thay theyr chyrch of heretyques were the very chyrche, and the catho- lyque chyrche were a chyrche of heretykes. Agaynst those heretykes I say, and wyth them agaynste these heretyques to, dyd that holy doctour saynte Austayn, not onely eyght hundred yere agoo, whyche were yet a lenger tyme by almoste halfe then euer hadde any secte of heretyques any contynuaunce yet/ but lenger byfore eyght hundred yere then almost ha1f.viii.C. agayne, make this inuyncyble reason whyche nowe thys worshyppefull wyld gose so comely scoffeth and scorneth/ by whyche for all his goodly scoffynge at saynt Austaynes reason, he shall neuer whyle he lyueth auoyde yt, but that saynt Austayn hath by that reason alone, all though he neuer had made mo/ where as Tindale wel knoweth though he wolde haue yt seme nay, that saynt Austayne made for that purpose many mo/ but though he neuer hadde I saye made mo for that purpose then that one: yet had ys one agaynst Martyne Luther and wyllyam Tyndale to, and agaynste all the heretykes that euer haue ben, are nowe, or euer shall be herafter, well and clerely proued that theyr chyrche be all the many false, and onely the knowen catholyque chyrche the very trew chyrche of Cryste. And now syth this reason that Tyndale here setteth so lyght, was as hym selfe after confesseth, made by saynt Austayne hym selfe so mayny hundred yere ago, and hath ben well lyked and aloWed of euery good wyse man synnes: let vs nowe se wyth what substancyall answere Tyndale can scoffe yt oute. Tyndale. And this reason do the Iewes lay vnto our charge this day. And thys reason doth chyefely blynde them, and holde them styll in obstynacy. More. O good lorde, what great pytye yt was that saynte Austayne hadde not had as myche wyt as wyllyam Tyndale that he myghte haue seen that his argument wolde so sone be soyled/ and that yt was no better for the chyrche a[Niv]gaynste heretyques, then for the Iewes agaynste crystendome / but euen the selfe same reason that mayn- teyneth them in theyr obstynacy, & kepeth them from crystendome. But surely saynte Austayn good man saw not so farre. For syth he neuer founde in all his days, neyther Iew nor heretyque so madde to make hym that answere whyche myght so sone be voyded/ he trusted well good man that there wolde neuer none be so folyshe in suche wyse to soyle yt after. How be yt yf saynt Austayne hadde had no more to say to the Iewes for the defence of his reason, then the heretykes hadde to saye to hym in the soylynge of his reason: then myght the heretyques well haue mokked saynt Austayne, as Tyndale doth nowe, and soyled hys reason in the selfe same fashyon/ and so wolde they sone haue done ye may be sure, had they not seen full well that they sholde haue won them selfe nothynge but shame therby. For yf any heretyke wold so haue sayd vnto saynt Austayn, ys the Iewes myght saye the same to the crysten people, you knowe not the scryptures of god but by vs bycause we tell you so, ergo we be the very chyrche of god/ and vs ye muste byleue as well in the vnderstandynge of the scrypture, as ye byleue vs in the knowynge whyche is the scrypture: saynte Austayne wolde sone haue sayde agayne, that crysten people myght answere the Iewe and say, we neyther receyue the scrypture of you nor know the scrypture by you, nor yet byleue you neyther in the declaracyon therof For yf we dyd/ then muste we graunt the gospell were no scrypture, nor nothynge that any of Crystes apostles wrote, nor some bokes neyther whyche were taken oute of your owne hebrew tonge. And therfore we knowe neuer a boke of scrypture by your teachynge, but mysse truste rather euery boke of scrypture that commeth out of your handes. For the synagoge of Moyses whyche was whyle yt lasted the chyrch of god, is now ended and is his chyrch no lenger. But our sauyour Cryste hath begonne and contynued his chyrche, this knowen catholyque chyrche gathered of Iewes & gentyles both to gyther. And he toke not the olde scryptures of you, nor of you neyther lerned to know them, nor of you to vnderstande theym/ but he made theym all, and by the writers therof hym self endyghted them. And he delyuered vnto vs that chyrche, both those olde and also some other [Ni] newe, and yet dyuerse other instruccyons ofhis pleasure in thynges that he wolde haue byleued and done, whereof he caused no parte to be wryten. And then he taught and euer teacheth and euer shall teache, hys catholyque chyrche to knowe as well those holye wrytynges as those other holy thynges vnwryten, wyth all necessary vnderstandynge of those holy wrytynges to. And all this he techeth his chirch by hym selfe and his owne spyryte, accordynge to his own promyse euermore abydynge therin, to lede yt in to all necessary trouth to thentent that his catholique chyrch may be to euery man that wyll lerne therof and geue credence thereunto as hym selfe commaundeth euery man to do, a very sure stablyshement and a stronge pyller of trouth/ as well in perceyuynge whych is the trew scrypture, as the necessarye lernynge of the trew vnderstandynge of the scrypture/ & ouer that of euery other thynge that god wyll haue done or bylyued besyde the scryp- ture. Whyche scryptures ye Iewes nothynge now belonge vnto you, syth ye be no lenger the chyrch for whome they serue/ and as mych of them as ye can catche in youre handes, ye vse to mysse wryghte and corrupte, and chaunge the very texte in suche places as the trew texte maketh for our sauyoure Cryste, and for the catholyke fayth taught by hym selfe & his holy spyryte vnto his catholique chyrche. Thus lo, wyth yet many better thynges mo then eyther my pore wyt or lernynge can deuyse, could saynt Austayn haue answered any suche heretyque that wolde haue soyled his reason with the Iewes argument, as Tyndale now doth here. And farther then myght saynte Austayne haue sayde to that heretyque, as we may saye to this heretyque, ys what so euer the Iewes wold iaber or iangle agayne, ye that are crysten men and falsely professe Cryste, whyche fallynge from his fayth styll pretende his name, ye can not say but that the Iewe is trewly and reasonably answered. And therfore may we saye to Tyndale, that he can not say for the mayntenaunce of his solucyon, any such thyng agaynste the reason of saynt Austayne, as saynte Austayn myght haue sayd agaynst such other heretykes. For Tyndale can not saye that the chyrch of Cryste is at an ende as the synagoge of the Iewes is/ nor can not deny but that he toke the scrypture of the chyrche, and lerned to knowe the [Niv] scrypture by the teachyng of the chyrch/ & that none other chyrche, but the knowen catholyke chyrche, vnto whyche god hath geuyn the gyfte to dyscerne and knowe the scripture from all other wrytyng/ as Tyndales own mayster Martyne Luther as false as he is, could not yet for shame but confesse. And thus lo good crysten reders, here ye clerely se that Tyndales example and symylitude of the Iewes, wherby he wolde shake of saynt Austayns reason made agaynst heretykes, to proue the catholy- que chyrche the very chyrch, is well and clerely voyded and proued farre vnlike/ so that Tyndale muste seke hym selfe a new solucyon for this. And so ye shall se hym do anon/ but ye must geue him leue to rayle a lytle fyrste. Tyndale. Our spyrytes fyrst falsefye the scrypture, to stablyshe theyr lyes. More. Lo good reders, I tolde you ye muste geue hym leue to rayle a lytle, ye & to ly a lytle to/ for ellys he can not speke. But yet god be thanked that hys goodnesse hath made yt well perceyued and knowen, that onely the sectys of heretykes departyng out of ys catholike chyrch, haue vsed euer ys crafte, not onely to refuse for scrypture some parte of the very scrypture in dede / but also for fauour of theyr false heresyes, to chaunge, corrupte, and of purpose to falsefye, wyth rasynge and false wrytyng, the trew texte of thos bokes that them selfe take and confesse for the very scripture in dede. Lette Tyndale tell vs any one peyce of holy scrypture that the catholyque chyrch refuseth. He can not for shame say yt/ where as these heretykes refuse and reiecte diuerse partis of the pistle of saynt Iamys, and some other peyces to now and then when they lyste. Let Tyndale tell what one texte, what one worde, the catholyk chyrch hath gone about to corrupte or chaunge to make the texy the more mete for theyr mater. Now hath yt ben an olde pranke of heretykes, to vse that fashyon of malycyouse corruptynge the bokes of the holy scrip- ture in theyr handes/ as ye may rede in autentyke storyes, that the Arrianys dyd, and were shamefully taken wyth all. Of this falsefyenge we haue also a freshe new ensample geuen vs by Tyndale hym selfe in his translacyon/ wher[Oi]in he falsefyeth the trew texte of the testament of Cryste, and putteth out both penaunce, preste, & chyrch, with cherite, grace, and all/ turnynge theym into other wordes, for the settynge forth & auauncyng of hys false faccyouse heresyes. Of thys falsefyenge haue these heretykes also gyuen vs good ensample, in the bokes that they haue put forth, and in the calender of the sayntes haue put out saynt Polycarpus that holy man the .xxiii. daye of February, and sette in in hys place a stark wreched heretyke, late burned at Maydeston and now burnynge in hell called Thomas Hytton, whom they call in theyr kalender saynt Thomas of Kente. Suche purpensed falsefyenge of bokes vse alway these heretykeS, and none at any tyme but heretykes. Thus do they falsefye the bokes of the olde holy doctours and sayntes, such as they eyther do translate or cause to be put in prente, as doth in dyuers places appere, and maye be clerely proued. And lately haue they played that pageaunt in falsefyeng the very texte of scrypture, in such wyse ys they shewe therin theyr honest playnnesse and theyr substancyall trewth. For haue not some of Tyndals holy elected sorte chaunged the laten texte of saynt Poule in the fyrste pystle to the Corinthians? For where the olde translacyon hathe thys word fornicarii & the newe translacyon scortatores, which sygnyfyeth in englysshe, whore hunters/ they haue put in thys worde sacerdotes, that ls to say prestes. And euen as they haue handeled the holy scrypture of god, so haue they vsed them selfe in other wryters that expoune and declare the scrypture. For the Lutherans putte certayne wordes of theyr owne into a boke whych is ascribed vnto saynt Chrysosteme, to make it seme that in whom some euer were fayth, he coulde not be possybly wythoute good workes. And Huyskyn also in hys translacyon of the cunnynge bysshop Theophylactus vppon saynte Iohan his gospell, lefte out in the exposycyon of the.xxi. chapyter, not a fewe lynes. And leste yf it were perceyued it myghte be layed to hys charge/ he sayd that hys boke lacked somwhat in that place, where as other mennes bokes lacke it not. And holy saynt Thomas alledgeth in hys boke called Cathena aurea, the wordes whyche Huyskyne wold haue seme that they coulde not be founden in the worke. But for [0iv] what good intent and purpose he so sayed, the place it selfe who so euer loke theron shall very well shewe. How maye Tyndale now good chrysten reders, consyderynge thys false sharnelesse fasshyon of falsefyenge, so dayly founden in hys felowes and hym selfe to, as well as in other heretykes of olde tyme, be now so bolde as in hys raylynge agaynste the catholyke chyrch, to name onys the name of falsefyenge the scrypture? But now goeth he forth and sayth, that they falsefy the sentence of the scrypture. Tyndale. And when the scrypture cometh to lyght, and is restored vnto the trewe vnderstandynge, and theyr iuglynge spyed, and they lyke to suffer shypwrake: then they cast out thys ancre/ they be the chyrche and can not erre, theyr authoryye is greater then the scrypture, and the scrypture is not trewe, but by cause they saye so and admytte it. And therfore what so euer they afferme, is of as greate authoryte as the scrypture. More. Tyndale here speketh of iewglynge, which he sayth we vse in mysconstrewynge of the scrypture, and whyche he maketh as it were now spyed out, and the scrypture restored vnto his ryght sense agayne. But here is it ethe to spye and perceyue his iewglynge well inough, how he iewgleth hym self ouer the style ere he come at it. For ere euer he gete ouer the hedge, & tell vs what we do whan our iewglynge is spyed/ there is a lytell labour for hym of halfe a myles walkynge ere he come at the hedge, in whych he sholde tell vs and reherse vs some of those textes of scrypture, whych the catholyke chyrch or the doctours therof haue falsefyed wyth iewglynge away the ryght vnderstandynge, & which textes hym selfe and hys secte, that is to wyt all the sectes (for of them all is he as contrary as eche is to other) haue now restored vnto hys ryght sense agayne. Thus he sholde haue shewed vs fyrste, and then haue shewed vs after what the chyrche sayth therin, & proue that exposycyon false, & that by suche exposycyon the trew sense were iugled awaye. Thys waye sholde Tyndale take. But for as mych as he loueth well to walke in the dark, and there to iewgle as men maye not se to hys handes: I shall lyghte hym a can- dell and let you se for a sample some of these textes ys he meneth of, & for shame dare not speke of He meaneth all those textes of scrypture that speke of [0i] good wurkes, and by whyche textes god promyseth that good wurkes clensen our soules. As where our sauyour sayth, That thynge that ye haue more then inough gyue out in almoyse, and than lo be all thynges clene vnto you. And where ys scrypture sayth, Lyke as water quencheth the fyre, so doth almoyse dede put of synne: And this texte also, A mannes owne rychesse do redeme hys soule. He meneth also all such textes of scrypture, as gyue vs warnynge that god wyll rewarde our good wurkes in heuyn, and that for lacke of good wurkes men shalbe dampned in hell. As where our sauyour saythe hym selfe in the gospell of saynt Mathewe, The sonne of man shall come in hys fathers glory with his angels, and then shall he rewarde euery man accordynge to hys dedys. And by the mouth of saynt Poule, we muste all be browght before the iudgement seate of Cryste, that euery man maye receyue ys wurkes of hys owne body, accordyng as he hath done whyther it be good or euyll. Also in the Apocalyps, I shall rewarde euery one of you accordynge to your deadys. And agayn in the.xxii. chapyter, Beholde I come shortely, and my rewarde is wyth me to gyue euery man accordyng as his wurkes shalbe. And in many playne places of scrypture more. All these textes lo do Luther and Tyndale say, that the catholyke chyrch iugle from theyr trew sense, bycause they teche them as god and the holy goost hath spoken them, & verely ment and entended by them. And all these textes do these holy sectes so restore agayn to theyr ryght sense and vnderstandynge, that they clene destroye them, and constrewe them clene contrary bothe to the playne wordes and menynge/ and wolde wyth theyr euyll gloses make men byleue, that all the good workes were ryght nought worth at all, and that noth- ynge shalbe rewarded but onely fayth, nor no man for any thynge dampned but for onely lacke of bylyefe. And therfore sayth saynt Luther en- spyred wyth the spyryte of Lucyfer, that a good man when he doth any good dede, he doth synne/ and that there can no thynge dampne a chrysten man as longe as he wyll byleue. For what synnes so euer he do bysyde, yf fayth eyther stande styll wyth hym or come agayne vnto hym, hys fayth doth than suppe vp in a moment all hys synnes at onys, wythout any pe[Oiv]naunce at all. He weneth he were suppynge vp of a rere roten egge wythout eyther brede or salte / for there nedeth none other penaunce ye wote well therto, but euyn drynke well to it. With thys goodly glose lo restore these men these textes of scrypture vnto the ryght sense agayne. Then when we tell them that good workes by whyche they sette so lytle, god setteth so mych by, that by the mouth of his blessed apostle saynt Iamys, he giueth all the world warnynge, thar the bylyefe wherin they putte all the lyfe, is wythout good workes in hym that may wurke a thyng as towchynge any lyfe of grace or glory clerely destytute & dede: when we tell Luther, Tyndale, or Barns this tale, then wrestle they wyth that texte, and wrythe it and wreste it about, and fayne wolde wynde them selfe out wyth iewg- lynge fayth alone into fayth, hope, and cheryte. But perceyuynge that folysshe iewglynge to be so fonde a poynte, that all that loke theron laughe therat/ they shake of that texte an other way, and the whole pystle therwyth, bycause of other playne wordes that saynt Iamys hath therin for the sacrament of anelynge. For whyche to rydde them selfe of bothe the busynesse at onys, and of many sore wordes also, wherwyth saynte Iamys dothe in the same pystle as playnely preche agaynste these heretykes, and as surely descrybeth theym, as though he hadde longe bene conuersaunt & in company with theym/ as the kynges hyghnesse excellently well marketh and reherseth: Luther letteth not vppon the boldenesse and authoryte of hys apostasye, to reiecte and caste out as no scrypture that whole pystle of Crystes blessed apostle/ sayeng that wyse men affyrme yt to be none of his, and that yt hath no smakke of any apostolyque spyryte. And yet blasphemeth farther and sayeth, that yf yt were his in dede, he wolde not let to tell hym, that in some thynges there the apostle toke more vppon hym then myght well become hym. Then concernynge the sacramentes, all suche as them selfe deny, that is to wyt fyue of the seuen, all suche textes as in the scrypture speke of them/ those they glose as it pleseth theym. As in the sacra- ment of presthed, the wordes of saynt Poule vnto Timothe, by whych he playnely speketh of grace geuen vnto Tymothe by the puttynge of his handes vppon hym/ that Tyndale sayeth was but as a man [Oi] layeth his hande vppon a boyes hed when he calleth hym good sonne. In the sacrament of matrimony, where as saynt Poule sayth yt is a great sacrament/ those wordes gloseth Luther, and sayth that saynt Poule peraduenture sayd that of his owne hed. In the blessed sacrament of the auter, where as our sauyour sayde hym selfe, This is my body/ there gloseth Luther his wordes, and sayeth yt is as myche to say, as thys is brede wyth my body. And frere Huyskyn, Tyndale, and Swynglius, glosen yt, and sayth that these wordes, This is my body, be as myche to say as this is nothyng, and but onely sygnyfyeth my body, and ys not my body at all. And as concernynge holy vowes, where the scrypture sayeth, Paye youre vowys / frere Luther, frere Huyskyn, Swynglius, and Tyndale, so glose yt, that they conclude that euery frere may sette his vowe at nought, and wedde a nunne when he wyll. And thus lo good chrysten reders, do these holy folke brynge the scrypture to lyght, and restore yt to the trew vnderstandynge/ and spye out the iewglyng of the catholyke chyrche, that wolde iugle awaye suche good gloses. Now where Tyndale sayeth that we say that thauthoryte of the chyrche is greater then the scrypture/ and that the scrypture is not trew, but bycause the chyrche sayth so and admytte yt: in this he sayeth his pleasure as hym lysteth to ieste/ for he hereth no man so madde to say so/ for the scrypture were trew though neuer man loked theron. But this in dede we say, that the chyrche hath the gyfte of god to dyscerne whyche is the very scrypture and whyche not. And ys we say true in this/ not onely saynt Austayn perde, but holy Luther hym selfe also Tyndales owne mayster, bereth vs agaynste Tyndale good and substancyall wytnesse. And we say that theruppon folow- eth it though Tyndale and Luther both say nay, that the same chyrche is the very chyrche. And so we say yet agayne that Tyndale is con- cluded in the pryncypall poynt. And where he sayth that we say, that euery thyng that the chyrche sayeth, is of as great authoryte as the scrypture: we saye that god shall neuer suffre in mater of saluacyon or dampnacyon, the catho- lyque chyrche to say but the trouth/ bycause of his promyses made whych we haue [0iv] often rehersed, & bycause he wyll haue the catholyke chyrch to be to suche as wyll lerne, the pyller and sure stablyshement of trouth, as well in doctryne of fayth as of maners. And theruppon we very truely conclude, that the whole catholyque chyrche of.xv. hundred yere, is better to be byleued then Luther or Tyndale eyther in the vnderstandyng of scrypture / and that we therfore rather oughte to byleue the catholyque chyrche, that by the vnderstandynge of scrypture hath tolde vs this.xv. hundred yere, that yt is abomynable for a frere to wedde a nunne, then to byleue wyllyam Tyndale/ whyche in defence of Martyne his mayster, or frere Luther hym selfe eyther, whych for the defence of his owne shamefull synne, by the false glosynge of the scripture, affermeth that freres to wedde nunnys were well and vertuously done. And thus ye se to what good effecte Tyndales solucyon is come/ wherwyth he wolde answere saynt Austaynes reason, by ferynge hyrn that the Iewes myght laye the same reason for theym. But now goth Tindale well fauoredly forth with a gret face of a nother full solucyon/ and at a great length telleth vs in effecte none other maner thynge but the selfe same tale agayne/ and yet hath he tolde yt vs onys euery dele in his other solucyon of the fyrste reason before/ whych solucyon I haue soyled, and from all wyt and reason assoyled in my laste boke byfore. Tyndale. Not wythstandynge as I sayde, the kyngdome of heuen standeth not in wordes of mannys wysedome, but in power and spyryte. More. This is very well sayd/ & in his solucyon of ys fyrst reason he said ye wote wel ys same. And now se ye wel ys for ys catholike chyrch both ye reasons be first brought forth by very spirytuall men/ the fyrst reason by saynt Cypriane, the seconde by saynt Austayne. And yt hath suche power, that yt forced Luther hym selfe Tyndales owne mayster, to consent and agree therto. And the catholyque chyrche hath also for her parte the great power of the holy spyryte of god, that in this catholyque chyrche from the begynnynge vnto this present day, neuer hath ceaced yet nor neuer shall I trust, to shew many meruelouse myracles. Wherof let vs now se whyther Tyndale spekynge so myche of spyryte & power, [0i] can tell vs of any spyryt at any tyme assystyng any of all ys chyrches of so many sectys of heretykes, that euer had the myght and power to shew so mych as any one myracle this fyftene hundred yere among them euerychone. But what? in stede of such spyryte and suche power, ye shall here nowe that this high spyrytuall man shall make you some strong potancyall reason. Tyndale. And therfore loke vnto the samples of scrypture, and so shalt thou vnderstande. And of an hundred ensamples betwene Moyses and Chryste, where the Israelyyes fell from god and were euer restored by one prophete or other, lette vs take one euen Iohan Baptyste. Iohan went before Chryste to prepare hys waye/ that is to brynge men vnto the knowlege of theyr synnes and vnto repentaunce, thorow trew expoundynge of the lawe, whyche is the onely waye vnto Chryste. For excepte a man knowlege his synnes and repent of them/ he can haue no parte in Chryste. Of Iohan Chryste sayth Mayt. xvii. that he was Elias that shuld come and restore all thynge. That is he shulde restore the scrypture vnto the ryght sence agayn/ which the pharysyes had corrupte wiyh the leuen of theyr false gloses and vayne fleshely tradycyons. He made croked thynges streyght, as yt is wryten, and rough smoth. Whyche is also to be vnderstande of the scrypture whych the pharysyes had made croked, wrestynge them vnto a false sense with wyked gloses, and so rough that no man coulde walke in the waye of them. For when god sayde, honour fayher and mother, meanynge that we shulde obey them and also helpe them at theyr nede/ the pharysyes put thys glose therto out of theyr owne leuen, sayenge: God is thy father and mother. Wherfore whay so euer nede thy father and mother haue, yf thou offer to god thou art hole excused. For yt is better to offer to god then to thy father and mother, and so myche more merytoryous as god is greater then they: ye and god hath done more for the then they, and ys more thy father and mother then they. As ours nowe affyrme, that yt is more merytoryous to offer to god and his holy deed sayntes, then vnto the pore lyuynge saynyes. And when god had promysed the people a sauyour to come and blesse theym and saue them from theyr synnes/ the pharysyes taught to byleue in holy workes to be saued by, as yf they offred and gaue to be prayed for. As oures, as ofte as we haue a promyse to be forgeuen at the repentaunce of the hert thorow Crystes blood shedynge, put to, thou must fyrst shryue thy selfe to vs of euery syllable/ and we must laye our handes on thyne hed, and whystell oute thy synnes, and enioyne the penaunce to make satysfaccyon. And yet art thou but loused from the synne onely that thou shalt not come in to hell/ but thou muste yet suffre for euer synne seuen yeres in purgatory, whyche is as whot as hell/ excep thou bye yt out of the pope. And yf thou aske by what meanes th pope geueth such pardon/ They answere ouy of the merytes of Crysy And thus at the laste they graunt agaynst them selfes, that Chryste hath not onely de[Oiv]serued for vs the remyssyon of our synnes, buy also the forgyuenesse of that grosse and fleshely imagyned purgatorye, saue thou muste bye yt out of the pope. And wyth suche tradycyons they toke away the keye of knowlege, and stopped vppe the kyngdom of heuen, that no man coulde entre in. And as I sayde, they taught the people to byleue in the dedes of the ceremonyes, whyche god ordeyned not to iustyfye but to be sygnes of promyses, by whyche they that byleued were iustyfyed. But the pharysyes put out the sygnyfycacyons, and quenched the fayth, and taught to be iustyfied by the worke/ as ours haue serued vs. For oure sacramentes were onse but sygnes, paryely of what we shulde byleue to sterre vs vp vnto fayth/ and partely what we shuld do, to sterre vs vppe to do the law of god/ and were not workes to iustyfye. Now make this reason vnto Iohan and vnto many prophetes that went before hym and dyd as he dyd, ye and vnto Cryste hym selfe and his apostles/ and thou shalt fynde them all heretykes, and the scrybes and pharysyes good men, yf that reason be good. More. Lo good cristen reders here haue I rehersed you his long processe not in pyeces but euen as it lyeth to gether/ by whyche ye may se that Tyndale doth nothyng here, but tell vs the self same tale that he told vs byfore in his solucyon to the first reason. For there he told vs the same tale of the scrybes, and pharysyes, and synagoges, and saynt Iohan Baptyste, and Cryste, and his apostles/ wyth his resemblynge of the scrybes and pharysyes, and synagoge, to the clergye and to the catholyque chyrche/ and hym selfe, and his holy mayster Marty Luther, and frere Huiskyn, frere Lambert, and Swynglius, & such other holy heretykes, vnto saynt Iohan and our sauyour & his apostles, as prophetes nowe new comen to begynne the trew chyrche of god agayne, by goynge oute of the catholyque chyrche/ in lyke maner as Criste and his apostles, & saynt Iohan the fore goer, cam to begynne agayne the trew chyrche of god, by callynge men from the synagoge. All this tale as he tolde yt there so now for a new thyng he telleth vs agayne here. And all this tale as I there answered yt and clerely proued yt noughte, so shall I desyre the reder to resort thither, and there to rede myne answere/ and then shall he fynd that lyke wyse as this is but his old tale new told, so nedeth it none other confutacyon For where he begynneth agayne here as he dyd there, wyth [Pi] hys hundred prophetes that were sent bytwene the dayes of Moyses and Cryste to call agayn the Israelytes beyng so often in the meane whyle fallen from Cryste vnto idolatrye: he can neuer proue that syth Chrystes dayes the catholyke chyrche hath onys so done, nor that euer it so shall here after/ but yf he proue therwyth all Chrystes promyses broken, by whyche he hath promysed to kepe hys chyrche therfro/ as when he sayd that the gatys of hell sholde neuer preuayle agaynst hys chyrch/ and that hym selfe had so prayed for saynt Peter, that hys fayth whyche he confessed sholde neuer fayle nor be put out of hys chyrche and that he wold sende ye holy goste therin to teche it all trouth and lede it into all trouth / and that hym selfe wold be ther wyth all dayes vnto the very ende of the worlde. By thys it appereth playnely, that though they whyche fall from thys chyrche, that is to wytte suche sectes of heretykes as go oute therof maye fall to idolatrye: yet the chyrche it selfe, that is to saye the stocke that standeth styll and remayneth, god shall neuer suffre to fall from the fayth, but yf he breke all these promyses / whyche We be sure that the vnchaungeable treuth of hys owne nature, beynge is hym selfe sayde the very naturall treuth, can neuer suffer hym to do. And so Tyndale can in thys poynt neuer make the synagoge of Moyses lyke the chyrche of Chryste, that is to wytte the knowen contynued catholyke chyrch/ to the onely whyche as saynte Aus- tayne sayth and Luther confesseth, and Tyndale can not saye naye, god hath gyuen the grace to knowe the very scrypture from the false, and the wordes of god frome the wordes of men, and to teche other folke the same all suche as gyue credence to it. Besydes this, yf he wyll make hys ensample lyke/ then muste he fyrste name vs a good sorte of those hundred prophetes, that in that meane tyme bytwene Moyses & Cryste called the people home from idolatry. And then yf he so do/ he shall fynd them such as the doc- tryne of the latter agreed & consented with the doctryne of the elder/ or yf god by the latter opened and reueled any ferther thynge, he yet by myracles and other open meanes proued them for so good & holy, ys though the peple and the princes both dyd dysalow them, and hated them, and kylled theym to/ yet when they were dede, varyed they neuer so farre from theyr doctryne, [Piv] and were they neuer so farre from the folowynge of theyr lyuynge whyle they lyued, yet they perceyued them after for sayntes, and had them in per- petuall honour and reuerence to theyr owne condempnacyon as our sauyour sayeth by theyr contrary lyuynge and persecutynge of the lyke, and yet to the testymony of the trouth thorough goddes pro- uysyon, for the profyte of other that wold both folow them and byleue them better. And therfore yf Tyndale wyll now make hys mater good and hys ensample lyke/ he muste reherse vs a lyke sorte of some suche othe holy prophetes, as god hath syth the deth of Cryste in thys.xv. hundred yere, sent hyther to call home his chyrche from idolatry/ as those other prophetes were that he speketh of/ sent in shorter season, to call home agayne the Iewes. Thys must he shewe vs yf he shewe any thynge to purpose. An then whorne shall he name vs? Nicholau and Cheryntus, Vigilantius Dormitan- tius, Manicheus, Valentinus, Arrius, Ioui- niane, Heluidius, Eunomius, Marcion, Montanus, wyclyffe, and Husse/ and a sorte of lewde wedded freres, as Luther, and Lambert, and Huyskyn / or prestes apostataas from the chrysten fayth, as Pomeran, Suynglius, and Huchyn here hym selfe. If he name you these/ let hym proue them onys good men, or at ys lest wyse some one amonge them all, let hym proue theyr doctryne agreable, or at the leste wyse obstynately not repugnaunt/ let hym that sheweth any ferther thynge then hys felowes, by some maner meane proue hym selfe sent by god, or such a man at the leste wyse as the people myghte haue cause to reken hym for hys lyuynge, a man very lykely for god in so greate a mater to chese oute specially and sende forth on hys errande. But thus ye wote well that of all these that are dede, the worlde hereth not a good worde that euer there was one good of them, but openly condempned for false. And as for these that nowe lyue/ we se well at our owne eyen, they be starke rybaudes all. And agre- ment in theyr doctryne, neyther is there none now nor neuer was there yet. Myracles as shamelesse as they be, they can not for shame saye that euer they shewed any. So that these were neuer any of the holy men, whom god hath sent to call home hys chyrche so often from idolatry to fayth, as Tyndale sayeth that the [Pi] hundred prophetes an hundred tymes called home the Iewes. And yet suche muste he shewe yf he saye aughte to purpose. And therfore yf these heretykes wyll nowe be resembled to Chryste and hys apostles and to saynt Iohan/ let Tyndale tell vs whyche of them to whyche of these? If these be now sent to call the catholyke chyrche to the ryghte faythe from whyche it was fallen before, as Chryst was and hys apostles wyth saynt Iohan hys fore goer to call home the synagoge/ than lette Tyndale now tell vs whyche of them he resembleth to saynte Iohan, whyche to Chrystes apostles, and whyche vnto Chryste hym selfe. And yf he lyken Luther to Chryste, thenne who was Luthers saynte Iohan Baptyste and fore goer/ or ellys whose fore goer and baptyste is Luther, to whome maketh he the waye now as the tother dyd to Chryst? I wene in good fayth to Ante- chryst, and so forth to the deuyll of hell. How be it of treuth, holy prophetes hath there bene sent vnto the worlde by god and into the chyrche of Chryst, mo then an hundred syth the deth of Chryste, to kepe in the ryghte fayth and calle home the people fro synne, by the trewe doctryne of the spyryte, in- spyrynge theym the ryghte sense of scrypture, & what so euer god wolde haue knowen besyde. Whose doctryne in the necessary poyntes dyd agre togyther, and which were holy men, so knowen well whyle they lyued, and so taken after theyr deth declared for goddes messengers by many a myghty myracle. Of these men may I name full many of sundry tymes, as saynt Ignacius, saynte Policarpus, saynte Cypriane, saynte Basile, saynt Crysosteme, saynt Leo, saynt Hylary, saynt Ierome, saynt Ambrose, & saynte Austayne. Now yf Tyndale dare saye that hym self meneth these/ then say we that none of these called vs to Tyndals fayth. For none of them dyd constrewe the scrypture as Tyndale doth. And therfore hys fayth is not Chrystes fayth, nor Tyndals doctryne agreable and consentynge to theyrs. For yf Tyndale dare saye that hys doctryne and theyrs agree / lette Tyndale then of theym all name vs now some one that euer called relygyous persons to the brech and contempte of theyr vowes, and sayd that chastyte was an vnlawfull vowe, & wolde that monkes and freres sholde runne out and wedde nonnes. [Piv] Then syth that of hys hundred prophetes bytwene Moyses and Cryste, Tyndale leueth of foure score and nynetene, and is content to take no mo but saynt Iohan, to shewe that hym selfe doth go from the catholyke chyrche & rebuke the doctryne therof, as saynt Iohan dyd fro the synagoge, & rebuked the doctryne of the phareseys: he muste shewe vs as I answered him in my sexte boke, ys or he proue saynt Iohan and hym selfe matches in that poynt, he muste proue that hym selfe was prophecyed vppon to be the fore goer of some newe Cryste as good as euer was the olde. He muste also shewe vs hys lyuynge somewhat more lyke the lyuynge of saynt Iohan then it appereth yet. Also bycause he sheweth no myracles/ he muste proue vs that hys newe Chryste to whome hym selfe is the fore goer, must do suche myracles as our olde Cryste dyd/ and then bere wytnesse of Tyndale hys holy baptyste, as oure Cryste bare wytnesse of the tother. And all thys in hys lyfe besyde myracles many shewed for hym when he is dede. Fynally yf he wyll saye as he meneth here, and playnely sayth in hys other solucyon to the fyrste reason, that he and hys felowes do now rebuke the doctryne of the catholyke chyrche, in lyke maner as saynt Iohan the baptyste & Cryst dyd rebuke the doctryne of the scrybes and pharyseys: he muste proue vs that of those scrybes and pharyseys which taught the doctryne that saynt Iohan baptyste and our sauyour rebuked, were holy men and sayntes. For els sayeth Tyndale no thynge to the purpose/ for as myche as hym selfe can not saye naye, but that many of those that haue taught the thynges that Tindale and Luther now rebuke were holy doctours and sayntes of euery age synnes Crystes dayes to theyr owne. And thus ye se good readers, that where Tyndale byddeth vs loke vppon the olde ensamples, and then pyketh out specyally saynt Iohan Baptyste to resemble hym selfe & hys prechynge to, and hys demeanure agaynste the catholyke chyrche, vnto saynt Iohan and his demeanure toward the synagoge/ is as vnlyke as are whyte and blacke. Now shall ye well perceyue, that the persons of saynte Iohan Baptyste and of syr wyllyam Tyndale, be not mych more vnlyke, no nor so farre vnlyke neyther not by a great dele, as are the thynges that saynte Iohan reproued in the [Pi] doctryne of the scrybes & pharysyes, and the thynges whyche Tyndale reproueth in the doc- tryne of the catholyque chyrche. How be yt Tyndale to make them seme lyke, dyssymulyng the greatest thynges & of most weyght, pyketh oute a fewe thynges wherin he wolde make the mater seme somwhat lyke/ & yet fyndeth lie none very lyke. And ouer that where they seme lyke, he maketh theym seme lyke wyth lyenge. For fyrste he begynneth as ye haue herde wyth the false glose of the pharysyes, by whyche many of them falsely constrynge goddes commaundement of honourynge theyr father and mother, mysse taughte the people, that what nede so euer theyr father and mother had, yet yf they offred vnto god, they dyd better then yf they holpe theyr father & theyr mother therwyth. And when he hath tolde this of the pharysyes/ then resembleth he the doctryne of the chyrche therto, and sayth, <2As ours now afferme thatyt is more merytoryouse to offre>2 <2to god and his holy sayntes dede, then vnto the pore lyuynge sayntes.>2 Lo good reder here knoweth Tyndale well ynough that he lyeth to make the two thynges seme lyke/ and yet he maketh them not lyke. For well ye wote, there is no lytle dyfference betwene the thynge that Tyndale sayth here, the chyrche teacheth to be more merytoryouse to offre to god then to gyue to a pore man / and the thynge that he sayth the pharysyes taughte, that yt was more merytoryouse to offre vnto god, then helpe his father with ys money, were he in neuer so great nede. For I am not lyke bounden to helpt- euery straunger ys is a pore man that is to say in some pouerty/ as to helpe myne owne father that were in extreme necessyte. And yet as vnlyke as they be, these two thynges doth Tyndale here lyken to gether. Myght he not here lyken almoste as well Powles steple to a dagger sheth? And yet in this lykenynge as vnlyke as they be, he letteth not a lytle to lye, to lynke them so nere to gether. For I wysse Tyndale knoweth very well, that no man teacheth so precysely as he reherseth/ ys yt is better to offre to god and hys holy sayntes dede, then vnto the pore lyuyng saynts. But the doctryne of the chyrch is as hym self can tell full well yf he lysted not to lye, that whych of those two thynges offrynge or geuynge in almoyse is for the tyme more merytoryouse, dependeth vppon the cyrcum[Piv] - staunces of the dede, & the persons at the tyme. For yt were not alwaye trew to saye, that I muste helpe my father byfore a straunger, nor my selfe byfore a nother man. For my father may percase haue some nede and my selfe both/ and yet not so myche, but that I were bounden for the tyme to geue fro my selfe, & yet not to my father, but for the tyme to some straunger whome I neuer knewe byfore/ his necessyte may be suche. And therfore the catholyque chyrche teacheth, that both to gyue almoyse is good, and to offer is good/ and he that hath wherwyth to do both, ought to do the tone, and doth well to do the tother. But where the tone ys better and where the tother/ is to be consydred by hym that doth yt, vppon the tyme and persons, and many other cyrcumstaunce mo then well can be comprehendyd and gyuen men in wrytyng, vnder any suche certayne rules, but that some tyme they may fayle. But reason ruled by cllaryte and deuocyon, shall not nede to fere but they shall do bothe full well, and perceyue suffycyently where the tone is to be done and where the tother, yf they folowe not these heretyques in contempnynge the tone. The chyrch sayth as saynt Poule sayth, at vyrginyte is better then ys worke of wedloke. Yet meneth neyther the chyrche nor saynt poule that yt so were, yf there were but one man wyth one woman left a lyue in all ys whole world. Saynt Mary Magdaleyn was more alowed of Cryst for bestowyng that costely oyntement vppon his hedde, so fully and so frely that she brake the glasse, and all to shewe that she wolde none spare for her selfe/ then yf she had sold yt as Iudas wolde haue had yt, and geuen the money to pore men. And yet dyd she yt but to do hym pleasure wyth, as men dyd then vnto gestes to make them chere with all/ as folke do now caste dammaske water and burne plesaunt perfumes. All be yt vnware to her selfe she dyd in dede worke a mystery therin, that dyd betoken his beryeng. But god as I say the thanke ys he gaue her, he gaue her not for ys mystery wherupon she thought not/ but for ller deuout mynde ys she bare towarde hym. And yet peraduenture neyther she wold nor god wolde she sholde, haue bestowed yt so, in case yt hadde- happened that there had lyen a man so syke, that wythout ys oyntement he shold haue dyed/ & that she had well wyste [Pi] or tllought, that she might by that oyntement saue his lyfe and by nothynge ellys. But all be yt there were pore men very many whom she myght haue refreshed, & well wyste there were so: yet syth she neyther knewe theyr nede for so great that requyred so sodayne helpe, nor other mennys deuocyon for so small, but that they myghte be holpen by other folke/ she neyther thought her self bounden nor no more she was in dede, to folowe the counsayle of Iudas in geuynge the pryce to pore men, rather then in wytnesse and testymonye of her good wyll and deuocyon, to spende yt out in pleasure vppon the blessed body of Cryste. And yet was he not rauyshed wyth the odour of her oyntement, but wyth ys delyte of her deuocyon/ in whych he delyteth yet when any man doth the lyke. And therfore I say, that though the pharysyes taughte wronge whome saynte Iohan reproued and our sauyoure hym selfe also, in that they taught that yt was better to offre the money to god, then honoure and helpe theyr father and mother therwyth were theyr nede neuer so great: yet the chyrche teacheth ryghte. For yt teacheth playne the contrarye therof/ and sayeth that the pharysees taughte false/ and teacheth onely that to offre to god and his sayntes is well done, and that to helpe pore men and gyue almoyse muste nedes be done. And when and in what case the tone is more merytoryouse then the tother, the chyrche teacheth many good and resonable rules/ and yet can no man well tell so many, but that as I sayde some tyme the reason of the man ruled wyth charyte and deuocyon that commeth and worketh wyth grace muste be his guyde therin. But now these new men begyn to geue a certayn rule, that as they say shall put vs quyte out of all doute, when we shall do the tone and when the tother. For therin lo thus they say. Offrynge say they, to god or to sayntes, and lyke wyse byeldynge of chyrches, byenge of copes, bokes, surplyce, and chalyce, be thynges voluntarye, to the doynge wherof no commaundement of god constrayneth the. But as for geuynge of almoyse is a thynge necessary, wherunto god by his own biddyng byndeth the. And therfore fyrst euermore geue thy money to the pore men that nede yt as longe as there be any. And then lo when there be no mo pore men left ys ye may bestowe youre money vppon/ go to then good crystyens in goddes name and bestow the remanaunt [Piv] wheron ye wyll, euen vppon pylgremages yf ye lyst, lo and vppon offrynges, and byeldynge of chyrches, and byeng of bokes, and copes, and crosses, and shyppes, and sensers hardely to for me. And therfore saye not now ys we say that the voluntary thynges be not lawfull. For we say no more, but ys the necessary thynges must nedes be done fyrste / and I wysse good crystyens ye wote well your selfe that is very good reason. Now to thende that ye may good reders the better perceyue whyle they teache in thys maner, what theyre very mynde is in the mater/ ye shall vnderstande that it happed my selfe to be vppon a tyme present in a certayne assemble of personages, bothe of great honoure and also of great connynge/ in whyche amonge other thynges that were there treated of, one that hadde in sundry places preached after suche maner fashyon as I haue here rehersed you, was demaun- ded and asked whyther yt were ynough byfore a man bestow his money vppon such kyndes of voluntary, to helpe fyrste such pore nedy folke as he happened to here of vnsought or ellys that he must besydes that byfore he bestoWe any money other wyse, seke and serche about whether he may fynd any mo. Wherunto he answered well and playnely, that we be fyrst bounden to seke & serch & be sure therof/ namely bycause of suche as can not come forth but lye styll bedred at home/ & some that be peraduenture a shamed to offre theym selfe and begge. Then was he demaunded farther, syth yt was not inough to geue pore men when they asked, nor where we found them by happe/ but we were forther bounden before we bystowed ought vppon volun- tarye, to seke and serche out such necessary: whyther yt suffysed then to take for our parte those nedy folke that were founde in oure owne paryshe, or ellys that we muste extende oure almoyse farther to the whole towne. Wherunto he answered, that neyther suffysed oure paryshe nor our towne, no nor all our oWn whole countrey neyther/ But where so euer there where any pore nedy men, we were bounden to helpe theym all, byfore we sholde any thynge bestowe vppon suche kyndes of voluntary / so that fynally the man was fully mynded, rather to send vs all to Rome to seke & serch out some pore man and bere him a peny thether, then to suffer vs spende a halpeny eyther oute or at home, vppon any offerynge eyther to god/ or saynte [Qi] or byeldynge of chyrche or garnysshynge therof, or byenge of any ornament therfore. And surely yf these folke saye well / then Mary mawdelayne dyd not wel, but was mych to blame. For I am very sure, and our sauyour hym selfe shall bere me recorde, that yf she wolde haue soughte and serched, she moughte haue founden in Hierusalem euyn at her hande, pore nedy men inough to haue receyued twyse as mych money as all thay oyntement was worth. Cryste blamed not those that offered into the treasory of the temple, nor sayd that they offered to myche / but rather by praysyng of the pore wydow that offered somwhat of her pouerty, rebuked the rych folke for offeryng to lytle/ all be it that as the gospell sayth, many offered mych. And yet as I sayed of thys am I very sure, that they myghte haue had pore men inough to bestowe that money vppon in relyefe necessary, that they there spent vppon the temple, a thynge as these men call it, voluntary. How be it I meruayle why they sholde call it all voluntary, for some of it be thynges that must nedes be done. For chyrches at the leste wyse muste we nedes haue/ and yet therto saye some of these folke naye. But holy saynt Chrysostome calleth vpon folke to byeld chyrches there as it semed necessary / and that so farforth, that rather then to leue that wurke vndone, he wolde they sholde gyue the lesse to pore folke to do the tother wythall. And thenne dare I saye that he wolde haue men bye bothe bokes and chalyces and other ornamentes therto. And thus may we sone se, that these new sectes of Tyndals sorte be farre fro saynt Chrysostomes mynde. For ye may well perceyue by theyr doctryne, that when they wold haue all pore men sowght out euer and serued, and euery mannes necessyte done, before any of the tother thynges that they call voluntary shold be by any man begon/ what other prechyng is thys, but vtterly to forbyd them, not with playne wordes, but wyth wurse then playne wordes, wyth blasphemouse mockerye, knauysshe derysyon and scorne. And surely that worde of Tyndale in whyche he calleth the saynteS that are departed dede sayntes/ all be it that there were none harme therin spoken by a good mannes mouth, yet hath it a shrewde sygnyfycacyon spoken out of hys / syth Luther and he wene that there were not one of [Qiv] theym all in heuyn, but that they lye all in a slepe styll no man woteth where/ and therfore Tyndale bydded vs pray to theym when we speke wyth theym/ so that tyll than, he wolde we sholde let them alone. And thus good chrysten reders, for conclusyon of thys poynt, ye maye clerely se that concernynge offerynges to god or hys sayntes, or money bestowed aboute those good wurkes that these folke call all voluntary, the chyrche techeth ryghte/ as appereth well by playne and euydent scrypture. And that the doctryne of the pharyseys whyche Cryste reproued, the chyrche reproueth also and therof techeth the contrary. And so the doctryne of the chyrche and the doctryne of the pharyseys in thys poynte, wherin Tindale resembleth them togyther and lyeth to, to make them lyke/ be no more lyke togyther, then is chalke to colys. Nowe is all the remanante of hys processe as ye haue herde, nothynge ellys but raylynge vppon the doctours of the catholyke chyrche, for byleuynge that the sacramentes be not bare sygnes and tokens, and bycause of the bylyefe of purgatory. Now am I very gladde that ye se so clerely, that those whome thys newe saynte Iohan Baptyste calleth pharyseys, be all those olde holy doctours and sayntes that haue bene in euery age thys fyftene hundred yere. For all they haue byleued in the same sacramentes that we do, and the same thynges that thys newe baptyste rebuketh. And in lykewyse of purgatory Tyndale can not saye naye. For I haue in my thyrde booke of hys confutacyon, layed hym playne wordes of dyuers of the eldest and most holy doctours/ and amonge other saynte Chrysostome, wrytynge that the apostles them selfe prayed for soules in theyr masses. And now se you playnely that Tyndale calleth theym all pharyseys therfore/ and is come as a newe saynt Iohan Baptyste, to shewe vs that by name thys.viii. hundred yere, but by his declaracion thys .xv. hundred yere, the pharyseys, that is to wytte all the holy doc- tours and sayntes that haue bene all thys whyle in chrystendome from Cryst hym selfe hytherto/ the treuth of whose fayth, and the holynes of whose lyuynge, our lorde hath illustrate and sette out vnto the shewe wyth many a thousande myracle/ haue made the vscrypture croked and rowgh/ wrestynge it wyth [Qi] false gloses/ makynge men byleue that there were purgatory, and that men sholde knele to Crystes crosse and kysse it, and wurshyp Crystes holy body in the blessed sacrament, and kepe the chastyte that they haue vowed to god/ tyll now lo that thys newe seynt Iohan baptyste is sent downe to prepare the waye for Antichryste, and make the rowgh smothe and the croked strayte, and to turne the hartes of ys fathers vnto the chyldren, wyth makynge the worlde now to be of the same harte and mynde, that the olde holy fathers haue ben of in olde tyme. And how wyll thys holy baptyste do all thys gere, and thus turne the hartes of the chyldren and the fathers all in to one? surely by techynge the chyldren as well in fayth as lyuynge, the very clene contrary of all that euer theyr olde holy fathers thys.xv. hundred yere haue taughte them/ & with tellyng vs that all the olde fathers were lyke the false pharyseys, and corrupted the scrypture as phary- seys dyd wyth false gloses/ teachynge good workes and sacramentes, and kepyng of holy vowes and suche other synfull superstycyons. And therfore doth thys holy new baptyste to purge and puryfye the people, byd vs now byleue that to breke the vowe of chastyte is a good wurke and well done / and that all other good wurkes be nought worth / and baptysme as lytell worth, bycause ys preste speketh to the chyld in laten a langage that the chyld vnderstandeth not/ as he sholde full well ye wote well, yf the tale were tolde hym in hys mother tong. Then techeth he vs that confessyon is the deuyls inuencyon, and absolucyon ys but whystelynge. Satysfaccyon greate synne to do any. The sacrament of wedlocke he sayeth is suche, that he coulde make as good a sacrament of an olde nette/ sauyng onely when freres wedde nonnes/ for than is it holy in suche holy folke. The sacrament of holy order he iesteth vpon, wyth shauyn, and shorne, and oyled, & waggyng of the bysshoppes hand/ and saynt Poules hand layde vppon Tymothe, but lyke a mannes hande layed on a boyes hedde and call hym good sonne. The sacrament of extreme vnccion he calleth but gresynge the syke man. The sacra- ment of confyrmacyon he calleth but smeryng of the chyldes face, and butterynge of the boyes forehed. [Qiv]. The holy blessed sacrament of the aulter, the very precyouse body and bloude of our sauyour hym self / this holy new baptyste for- bedyth to haue any honour done vnto it/ but onely take it for a memoryall of hys passyon. And then he iesteth theron hym selfe, & sayth that it is no thyng ellys but wyne and cake brede, excepte it be peraduenture turned into starch. Lo good Chrysten readers here is the doctryne of thys newe baptyste/ not saynt Iohan Baptyste but syr wyllyam Baptyste, thys holy wyllyam Tyndale otherwyse called Huchyn scolare to frere Huyskyn/ whyche hath here made you of the synagoge scrybes and pharyseys, such a goodly paynted processe as he hath now tolde you twyse/ & serued you with a Iak of Parys, an euyll pye twyse baken, to declare you twyse the greate frute and profyte that the world maye now take yf it wyll, by hys holy comynge into it, to preche and rebuke the pharisaycall doctrine of all the olde holy sayntes, and teche hys owne godly chrysten heresyes suche as ye now haue herde. And now yf thys gere be good/ then haue we surely great cause to thanke god. For then can we lacke none holy baptystes to preche vs. For there is not I wene so pore a vyllage in chrystendome, in whyche there is dwellynge any one vyllayne knaue, but he maye be wythin thre dayes (yf he be not all redy) suche an other baptyste as thys is/ and rebuke all that good is wyth suche abomynable blasphemye as noW Tyndale doth, yf any chrysten mannes earys can abyde the herynge. But yet remember good readers, that in the conclusyon of all that tale/ he knytteth it vp with a fresh lusty poynte, and soyleth all the reason in thys wyse. Tyndale. Now make this reason vnto Iohan Baptist and vnto many prophetes that went before hym and dyd as he dyd, ye and vnto Cryste hym selfe and his apostles/ and thou shalt fynde them all heretykes, and the scribes and pharysyes good men, yf that reason be good. More. Thys poynte is lo the olde poynte, whych here, and in hys solucyon to the fyrst reason, he hath put forthe four or fyue tymes before/ sauynge that he gyueth allway hys old poynt at one ende or other, some newe aglette. But when all hys coste is done theron/ it is not all worth an aglet of [Qi] a good blewe poynt. For I haue in my syxte boke answerynge hys solucyon to the fyrste reason, shewed you many answeres that saynt Iohan, and Cryste, and hys apostles, and other porc folke to, very farre vnder them, myght saye for them selfe agaynste the scrybes and pharyseys/ whyche thinges neyther Luther, nor Tindale, nor none of all theyr sectes can say for them selfe, agaynste the catholyke chyrche. And yet more shall I shew you of the same sorte, when ye haue hard what Tyndale can here saye for hym selfe. After all whych thynge harde & well wayed/ ye shall well and clerely perceyue, that for Tyndales tale, the reason of saynt Austayne that Tyndale here speketh of, beynge made by the Iewes agaynste saynt Iohan and Cryste and his apostles, shall haue no strength at all, neyther to proue theym euyll nor the pharysyes good. And yet the same reason beynge by the catholyque chyrche made agaynst Tyndale and Luther, and Huyskyn, and Swynglius/ muste nedes proue the catholyque chyrch to be the very chyrch of Cryst / and that Luther and Tyndale, and all they, with all those that byleue them, be playne vndouted heretyques. And therfore let vs fyrst se with what euasion Tyndale wyll auoyde this reason, for hym selfe and his own sectes. And then what Cryste can saye more for hym selfe and his company, we shall se somwhat after. Tyndale lo teacheth his dyscyples to answere the reason thus. Tyndale. Therfore this wyse thou mayste answere. No thankes vnto the heddes of that chyrche that the scrypture was kepte, but vnto the mercy of god. For as they had destroyed the ryght sense of yt for theyr lucre sake/ euen so wold they haue destroyed yt also had they coulde, rather then the people shold haue come vnto the ryght vnder- standyng of yy/ as they slew the trewe interpreyours and preachers of yt. And euen so no thankes vnto our ypocrites that the scrypture is kepte, but vnto the botomlesse mercy of god. For as they haue destroyed the ryght sence of yt wyth theyr leuen, and as they destroye dayly the trewe preachers of yt, and as they kepe yt from the laye people that they shold not se how they iugle wyth yt/ euen so wolde they destroye yt also coulde they bryng yt about, rather then we shulde come by the trewe vnderstandynge of yt, were yt not that god prouyded otherwyse for vs. For they haue put the storyes that shuld in many thynges helpe vs, clene oute of the waye/ as nye as they coulde. They haue corrupte the legende and lyues almoste of all sayntes. They haue fayned false bokes, and put them foryh, some in the name of saynt Hierome, some in the name of saynte [Qiv] Austayne, in the name of saynte Cypriane, saynte Dyonyse, and other holy men. Whych are proued none of theyrs/ partely by the style and latyne, and partly by autentyke storyes. And as the Iewes haue set vp a boke of tradicyons called Talmud, to destroy the sence of the scrypyure/ vnto whych they geue fayth, and vnto the scrypture none at all be yt neuer so playne, but saye yt can noy be vnderstande saue by the talmud: euen so haue ours set vppe theyre Dunce, theyr Thomas, and a thousand lyke draffe, to stablyshe theyre lyes thorow falsefyeng the scrypture/ and say that it can not be vnderstande with out them be yt neuer so playne. And yf a man allege an holy doctour agaynst them, they glose hym out as they do the scrypture, or wyll not heare, or saye the chyrche hath otherwyse determyned. More. Nowe good crysten reders here haue you herde one of his answers, whych how yt maketh any thynge to the purpose, surely that se not I. For where as the reason of saint Austayne is, that men may perceyue that this knowen catholyque chyrche is the very chyrch, in that that god hath vnto this chyrche geuen his gyfte of dyscernynge the very scrypture of god from the counterfete, and to receyue the tone and reiecte the tother/ and that he hath so geuen that grace vnto this chyrch onely, that no man can ordynaryly be sure whyche wrvtynge ls holy scrypture and whyche is not, but by the tradycyon of this chyrche and credence geuen therunto/ for yf he toke yt of a company of heretiques, yet euerrnore those heretykes lyke as they came out of this whole chyrche, and theyr authours and begynners were onys a parte therof, and then of this chyrche receyued the scrypture byfore they departed oute therof/ so dothe euermore the credence wheruppon the knowlege of the trew scrypture dependeth, that credence I say resorteth euer vppe to this whole catholyke chyrche / vnto whyche wythoute credence had ben geuen, none heretyke had knowen whyche were the very scrypture. For the profe wherof, we yet se ys these heretykes in so ferforth as they byleue the chyrch, in so ferforth they knowe whyche is the scrypture/ and in so ferforth as they byleue not the chyrche, they perceyue not whyche is the scrypture, though they haue it in theyr handes and rede yt. As ye may se by the pistle of saynt Iames/ whyche pystle Luther and frere Barons let not to reiecte and set a syde for nought. And thus euermore heretikes all the scrypture that they know, by the catholyke chyrch they know. For to this onely chyrche as Tyndales owne mays[Qi]ter confesseth, hath god gyuen that gyfte to dyscerne the trew scrypture fro the false. And syth that god hath geuen this great spyrytuall gyfte onely to the chyrche, whyche gyfte is a begynnynge of spyrytuall lyuely doctryne/ yt therby well and clerely appereth to any man that wyll not wylfully wynke, that this chyrche is the very chyrche, of whyche god wyll haue men lerne. Now good cristen reder, this beyng the reason and purpose of holy saynte Austayne/ and hauyng in yt selfe suche strength, that Luther coulde not hym selfe say nay therto/ not withstandynge that the con- fessynge therof must nedes ouerturne his heresyes: now byddeth Tyndale his dyscyples, that they shall answere therto, that the catho- lyque chyrch is not to be thanked for the scripture that we receyue therof, but the botomlesse mercy of god/ & here is all thys whole answere to the reason/ for all the remanaunt is nothynge ellys but raylynge agaynste the chyrch. Now what goth this answere to the purpose? who byddeth hym geue the thanke to the chyrche? let hym lyke as he byleueth the chyrch that the gospels of the foure euangelystes be the trew gospell of Cryste, so know therby and byleue that the same chyrche, by whyche he knoweth that poynt, and whyche in that poynte he byleueth, is here in erth the very chyrche of Cryste/ and then let hym geue the thanke to god, wythout whose grace workyng wyth hym, he coulde not byleue the chyrche neyther in the tone poynt nor the tother/ and for lakke of whose grace, whych grace he lakketh not but in his own defaut, he now byleueth not the tone poynte as he dothe the tother, excepte he lakke so mych that for his malyce he byleue neyther nother. I pray god geue hym onys the grace to byleue both/ and when he so doth, then shall he haue the grace therwyth to perceyue, that he hath for the knowlege of the trewe scrypture frome the false, great cause to geue thanke to both. Fyrste & pryncypally to god that gaue that gyfte vnto his chyrche, and wrought wyth hym to byleue yt/ and after to the chyrche, that was a meane and mynys- ter in bryngyiige that grace vnto hym/ and cause also to be gladde a great dele in hym selfe, that he resysted not god and his chyrche, but folowed and went wyth them in callynge hym home agayne, to the bylyefe of god and his chyrche, from the damnable wayes of his malycyouse errours. [Qiv] And now that ye playnly perceyue that this answere of his noth- ynge toucheth the purpose/ I wolde very fayne passe ouer his folyshe raylynge, sauyng that yt semeth necessary that the foly and lyes of suche false frantyque heretykes may be well knowen, lest some good symple soules inay wene them wyse and trew therwyth, and ther- uppon be deceyued and byleue them. Fyrste he rayleth vppon the doctours of the catholyke chyrch, & sayth ys they haue destroyed ys right sence of ys scripture with theyr leuyn. Now all this ye wote well he meaneth, in ys they teach that folke shuld not trust in only fayth wythout good workes od cheryte and of penaunce, and that they teache that freres sholde not wedde nunnys, and that crysten men sholde praye for all crysten soules, and sholde haue Crystes holy sacramentes in reuerence, and specyally the blessed sacrament of the auter, the precyouse body and blood of Cryste hym selfe, and other suche thynges lyke. This is the leuen for whych Tindale doth now damne here the doctoures of the catholyque chyrche. But euery man well woteth, and hym selfe to though he say nay, that this doctryne is of ys leuen wherwith the woman of whom Criste speketh in the gospell of saynt Matthew, dyd leuen all her whole dough and mele / that is to say of that leuen wyth whych not onely all the old holy doctours, but also ys blessed apostles them selfe, & our sauyoure Cryste also hym selfe, leuened the brede of theyr doctryne, whych eyther in wordes or wrytynge they taughte vnto the crysten floke. All which leuen Tyndale wold now take out, and leue vs the scrypture vnsauery. Then rayleth he forth on and sayth, <2They destroy dayly the trew>2 <2preachers ofyt.>2 Here let hym name whyche/ and then shall he name you suche as wolde destroy the leuen that I now rehersed you, whyche Cryste hath hym self put in our brede/ suche as for the more parte wolde take his owne blessed body out of the sacrament, and leue there for our soules nothynge but vnsauory brede, or as Tyndale argueth yt starche in stede of brede. I wolde he wolde name them all that haue nowe be burned here in Englande, by the meane of his own bokes. A Baynam the iangler, and Hytton ys Ioyner, & Teukesbery the purser, and Bayfeld thapostata, a worshyppefull sort of preachers. And yet shall Tyndale fynde none of all [Ri] these or any other that I haue herde of here, but that he eyther though he helde some of Tyndalys, yet he forsoke as false, some parte of Tyndals heresyes/ or held as trew some such thynge besyde, as Tyndale wolde I wote well yf hy selfe were apposed, afferme to be very false. And of this yf Tindal dare deny it/ I shall playnely proue both the partes. And therfore let Tyndale of those that haue ben burned here, chose whych he lyste/ and name of theym all some one that he wyll call a trewe prechour/ and than shall I proue you shortely, that yf that prechou be trew, Tyndale shall euyn by that prechour whom hym self wyl name for trewe, be playnely proued false. Then rayleth he ferther on and sayth, <2They kepe the scrypturefrom>2 <2the laye people, that they sholde not se how they iugle with it.>2 I haue in the boke of my dyaloge proued all redy, that Tyndale doth in thys poynt falsely belye the clergye / and that of trout wyclyffe, and Tyndale, and frere Barns, & suche other haue ben the onely cause for whych the scrypture hath ben of necessyte kep out of the lay peoples handes / and that of late, specyally by the polytyke prouysyon and ordynaunce of our most excellent souerayne the kynges noble grace, not wythoute greate and vrgent causes manyfestely rysynge vppon the false malycyouse meanes of wyllya Tyndale/ for whych all the lay people of this realme, bothe th euyll folke that take harme by hym, and the good folke that lese th profyte by hym, haue greate cause to lament, that euer that man was borne. Then forth he goeth on ferther in hys lyes and sayth, <2They haueput>2 <2the storyes that sholde in many thynges helpe vs, clene out of the waye as nyg>2 <2as they coulde.>2 How proueth Tyndale thys lye of hys to be trewe? let hym proue hys lye trewe in some one story that the chyrche hath put awaye/ and then tell vs thys tale agayn. For they neuer put any awaye, but suche as were fayned gospels and fables/ whyche the chyrche by the spyryte of god (whose gyfte Luther confesseth it to haue in that poynte) dyd euer more consyderately reiecte and auoyde / as it partely appereth by saynt Hierom, concernynge the booke of the infancye of our sauyour. But fayne wolde Tyndale haue some such fals & fayned storyes remayne & taken for scrypture, to thende & entent that as his heresyes be by the very scrypture confuted and reproued, so they myght be by some such false scrypture mayntayned agayne & allowed. [Riv] But then rayleth Tyndale ferther yet, and lyeth agayn agaynst the chyrche and sayth, <2They haue corrupted the legende and lyues all>2 <2moste of all sayntes.>2 Who hath corrupted these legendes? let hym name some one and proue it, or els let hym leue of hys lyenge. The legendes of sayntes lyues were wryten in dyuers tymes, as the sayntes in dyuerse tymes lyued, and in dyuers dyed/ of whose lyues the chyrch none other knoweth, but as they fynde wryten or herde by good folke that knew them/ sauyng that the spyryte of god by whych it knoweth and dyscerneth as saynt Austayn sayth & Luther hym selfe alloweth, whych is the very scrypture, shall not suffre it as that holy doctour saynt Thomas sayth, to erre and be deceyued, in takynge for a saynt any dampned person, & ther by geue to goddes enemye the honour dew to hys frende. And by thys spyryt what so euer be wryten in the legende of any saynte, the chyrche dyscerneth yf any thyng were at any tyme in the good man a mysse / & so taketh it as a faute for the tyme and afterwarde amended/ as we rede of some of Crystes owne apostles reported in the very gospell. And the chyrche also doth not precysely bynde any man to the bylyef of euery thyng wryten in a legend, as though euery sayntes legende were parte of the scrypture of god. But the thynge that Tyndale is offended wyth is this, that the legendes of sayntes testyfye theyr holy lyuynge & myracles that god shewed for them/ wherof we fynde no legende lyke that euer was wryten for any saynt, that in obstynate heresyes departed & dyed out of ye catholike chyrch. Now confesseth Tyndale that all the sayntes legendes be not so corrupted, but he saith almost all. In which word he sayth inough for vs agaynst hym selfe. For let hym leue neuer so few, & tell vs which they be/ and I dowte not then in good fayth, but that we shall in that fewe fynde thynges inough to proue hys heresyes false. Yet goth he ferther agaynste the chyrche and sayth, <2They haue>2 <2faynedfalse bookes and put them forth, some in the name of saynt Hierom,>2 <2some in the name of saynt Augustyne, and in the name of saynt Cipryane,>2 <2saynt Deonyse, and other holy men/ whych are proued none of theyrs, partely>2 <2by style and laten, and partely by autentyke storyes.>2 Here wolde he fayne good chrysten reders bryng vs all in dowte of all the olde holy doctours wurkes/ bycause he were lothe by hys wyll, that any were of them all byleued. [Ri] But what great harme and losse were there in the mater, though lt somtyme happed the boke of one good holy man to be named the boke of an other/ as a boke of saynte Austayn to be taken for a boke of saynt Ambrose? There were in such a mater no very great hurte yf it so happed in dede. But to the entent that ye shall playnely perceyue that thys tale of Tyndale wherwyth he wold fayne blynde vs, shall nothynge serue for hys purpose / let hym take the bokes of whyche hym selfe nothynge douteth, and euyn by ys selfe same shall he fynde hys opynyons proued playne heresyes. Or ellys let Tyndale fynd vs in some of theyr trew bokes, whych he douteth not to be theyr owne in dede, let hym proue I saye by theym, that all those bokes be falsely put out in theyr names/ in whych bokes he fyndeth yf they be trewe, all holy saintes agre agaynst hym selfe that good wurkes are merytory- ouse & that folkes do well to honour sayntes & theyr relyques, and ges, and to praye for all chrysten soules, & to honour the blessed sacrament, and that it is abominable for freres to wedde nonnes, & such other thynges lyke. Let Tindale I say fynde vs the contrary of these talys taught vs in theyr trewe bokes/ or els let hym tell vs no more of hys own tale, but leue of his lyes lyke a fole. And fyrst for the meane whyle, the boke in whych saynt Austayn maketh thys reason that we now talke of for the catholyke chyrch/ Tyndale doth hym selfe confesse to be the very boke of saynt Austayne. And then doth this reason alone playnely & perfytely proue this knowen catholyke chyrche, to be the very chyrche of Cryste / & consequently therby proueth Tindale that techeth the contrary, to be in the grettest poynte that any man lyghtely can fall in, & on whiche poynt most heresies do depende, a very playne open heretyke. Now where he rayleth on and sayth, that <2Lyke wyse as the Iewys had>2 <2set vp a boke of theyr Talmud to destroye the sense of the scrypture, so the>2 <2chyrche hath set vp>2 he sayth <2theyr Dunce, theyr Thomas, and a thousand lyke>2 <2draffe, to stablysse theyr lyes thorowfalsefyeng the scripture:>2 I can no scyll of the Iewys Talmud / but one thing I dowte not of, but ys theyr Talmud in ys it gaue false exposycyon was a late thyng at the comyng of Cryst, yf they had then any such boke. And I dowte not but that the thinges that were fals therin, varyed from the consent of theyr olde exposytours, by whych the falshed of it myght be spyed & controlled and [Riv] be byleued the lesse. But our doctours of these eyghte hundred yeres laste passed/ all whome thys worthy wylde gose calleth draffe, do consente and agre wyth the olde holy doctours of the tother.vii. hundred yere a fore. And as well all those olde whom he dare not call but holy, as these other thousande whom he calleth draffe, drawe by one lyne all the mayny, to dreue Tyndale as a drudge of the deuyll out of Crystes chyrche for an heretyke / or ellys as I haue almost a thousande tymes desyred hym, let Tyndale tell vs of all those old, which one taught it for lawfull a frere to wed a nonne. Now the wretclle rayleth by narae vppon that holy doctoure saynt Thomas, a man of that lernyng that the greate excellent wyttes and the moste conn- ynge men that the chyrche of Cryste hath hadde synnes hys dayes, haue estemed and called hym the very floure of theology, and a man of that trewe perfyte fayth and crysten lyuynge therto, that god hath hym selfe testyfyed hys holynesse by many a greaye myracle, and made hym honowred here in hys chyrche in erth, as he hath exalted hym to greate glory in heuyn: this gloryouse saynt of god wyth all other lyke, and those be of trouth all the whole many bothe olde and newe togyther, all whome therfore by the whole thousand on an hepe (for no fewer he nombreth them) doth thys deuelysshe dronken soule abomynably blaspheme, and calleth them lyars and falsefyers of scrypture, and maketh them no better then draffe. But thys drowsy drudge hath dronken so depe in the deuyls dregges, that but if he wake and repente hym selfe the soner/ he maye happe ere awghte longe, to fall into the messhynge fatte, and turne hym selfe in to draffe, as the hogges of hell shall fede vppon and fyll theyr belyes therof But when the beste hath thus blasphemed theym all/ then wold he wynde out with a wyle, and make men wene that he ment but the doctours of these last eyghte hundred yeres/ which were yet inough to laye such a raylyng knaue eyghte hundred myle depe in hell. But syth he sayth a thousand lyke vnto saynt Thomas/ he can not so escape, as though he ment but saynt Bernard, saynt Bonauen- ture, saynt Ancelme, and suche other holy men ofthese eyght hundred yeres passed laste/ but he must nedes take into them, all the olde holy sayntes as the seuen [Ri] hundred yeres byfore, as many as in suche thynges as Tyndale fyndeth fawte wyth expownyng the scrypture agaynst the mynd of Tyndale, lyke wise as saint Thomas doth. But nowe to coloure his blasphemy/ those wolde he sholde seme were none. And therfore lo thus he sayth. Tyndale. And yf a man alledge any holy doctour agaynst them, they glose hym out as thei do the scrypture, or wyll not here, or say the chyrche hath other wyse determyned. More. Lo good cristen reder this false pageaunt playeth Tyndale in mo places then one/ makynge as though that in the maters of his heresies the new doctours onely were agaynste hym. And yet calleth he the new, the doctours of eyght hundred yere olde/ and suche a new cote I wold he gate hym, and were oute his olde the whyle. And then maketh he as though the old of the tother seuen hundred yere byfore, were vpon his parte all the whole mayny, and construed the scripture as he doth, and condemne these exposycyons that the new doctours of eyght hundred yere olde and vnder haue made synnys. And he sayth that agaynste all holy doctoures when he layeth any one agaynst vs, we glose hym out, or wyll not here hym, or say the chyrch hathe otherwyse determyned. Here must Tyndale vnder- stand, that we neuer bynde hym to any thynge of necessyte vppon the saynge of any one doctoure be he olde or yonge/ but eyther by the comen faste fayth of the whole catholyke chyrch, growen as yt euer doth by the spyryte of god, that maketh men of one mynde in his chyrche, or by the determynacyon of the chyrche assembled for such causes in the gener- all counsayles. And then the comen fayth of olde tymes byfore our dayes, we presumeto be suche oflykelyhed, as we perceyue by the olde holy sayntes bokes that they were of them selfe. For other wyse then by bokes can we not knowe what the people byleued a thousand yere ago/ but yf we myght talke with the men them selfe and aske theym. Now yf Tyndale coulde laye vs for his purpose peraduenture, a worde of some one holy man/ yt were no reason to bydde vs byleue that one byfore the consent of many, nor agaynste the comen bvlyefe of the catholyque chyrche secretely growen to consent by the holy spyryte of god, nor [Riv] agaynst the consent of the catholyque chyrche dyffynynge that poynt in a generall counsayle thorow the same spyrite. Now when we thus do/ Tyndale can not say that we refuse to here that one holy man whome he shall peraduenture alledge vs for his purpose. For in thus doyenge, we do here hym and folow hym. For euery one of all the olde holy men dyd euer submytte his owne mynde to the determynacyon of the catholyque chyrche, and bode euery man do the lyke. And of them all we wote wel Tyndale fyndeth not one, that sayth contrary to thys. How be it thus myche haue I shewed you, rather to tell you somwhat of the authoryte of the catholyke chyrche aboue any one holy man, then for any holy man that euer I thynke Tyndale shalbe able to brynge forth for the confyrmacyon of his heresyes. But now to put this inater out of all dowte and questyon, & that euery man may se whether Tyndale speke here in ernest as he thynketh, or ellys sayth all thys but for a shyft/ let him now stande well to his tacklynge, and stykke styffely therto. Let vs concernynge the ryght construccyon of scrypture or corruptynge the trew sense therof, consydre some one heresye of his, for whyche the chyrch calleth hym heretyque, let vs se now. We saye that yt ys abomynable for a monke or a frere to wedde a nunne/ Tyndale sayth we saye wronge, and that a frere to wedde a nunne is very well done and lawfully. When we forbede yt, we lay the scrypture for vs. Vowe ye and pay yt. And saynt Poule spekyng of the wydows, whych after theyr chastyt vowed vnto god wold fall then agayne to maryage, sayeth that they hadde theyr damnacyon bycause the therin brake theyr formare faith. Tindal sayth we construe the scrypture wrong / and layeth scrypture for his part the wordes of saint Poule. Better yt is to wedde then to burne. We say he construeth wronge. If we wold alledge for vs thexposycyon of saynte Thomas, or saynt Anselm or saynt Bonauenture, or saynt Bernard, or a thousande suche lyk to gether, that were alyue at any tyme this eyghte hundred yere / Tyndale wolde call yt our Talmude, and say they were all but draffe. But then he sayth agayn that when he wyll alledge any holy doctour for his parte agaynste vs, we wyll glose hym out, or ellis we wyll not here hym, or ellys we wyll say that [Ri] the chyrch hath other wyse determyned. Lo good reders here are we comen to gether Tyndale and we to the very point, where you shall se now how courteysly I shall handle hym Let hym laye forth for his parte some one holy doctour, and I wyll here hym, and I neyther wyll glose hym oute nor saye the chyrch hath determyned otherwyse. For I wene the thynge was neuer take for so doutefull, that euer the chyrche sholde haue neded. But though yt haue determyned yt/ yet wyll I wynke there at and dyssymule yt, and wyll not saye, The chyrche hath other wyse determyned yt. And therfore I wyll alledge no suche thynge. But let Tyndale laye forth any one holy man for hys parte/ and ye shall se what I shall yet more do for hym. This wyll I lo do for hym. All be it that I haue for my parte not only all the holy doctours of these eyght hundred yeres, all whome Tyndale taketh for draffe/ and all be yt that I haue also for my parte holy saynte Gregory, holy saynte Austayne, holy saynte Ambrose, and holy saynte Hierome, foure the specyall doc- toures of Crystes chyrche/ and bysydes theym a great mayny that I coulde name holy doctoures and sayntes, some of a thousande yere. some of .xii. hundred, and some thertene, and some very farre aboue, and the yongeste aboue nyne hundred at the leste: let Tyn- dale I saye for his parte in the mater, lay me forth of all the hole doctours and sayntes no mo but euen some one / and I shall be content this ones for Tyndales sake, to byleue that one agaynste all his felowes / whych I wyll neuer do for no mannys pleasure I promyse you but euyn onely for hys. But now on the tother syde, yf he can not bryng so mich as one, as I wote very well he can not/ and we can agaynste hym brynge so many as hym selfe can tell well ynough: lette hym then for very shame confesse that he bylyeth the chyrche, when he sayth we wyll byleue no holy doctoure. And then lette hym also for very shame confesse, that in this one poynte at the leste bothe Luther and hym self, and all the shamelesse harlottes of theyr secte, do shamfully mysse constre the scrypture/ and wyth some newe Talmude of the deuyls deuyse and theyres, do corrupte and falsefye the very trew gospell of god. [Riv] This lo ye se well Tyndale muste graunte at the laste/ whyche yf he be so shamelesse as to denye yt styll, then wyll euery man ys wytte hath, graunte & agre yt for hym. And then muste yt nedys folowe farther, that all theyre whole doctryne is but playne frantyke heresyes / and that theym selfes beynge so shamefull shamelesse vnreasonable raylynge rybaudes, be men full vnmete for god to sende on his message in so great a mater, namely as to tourne the worlde wyth rybaudry fro synne. To thys goodly passe hath Tyndale brought this processe, and shewed vs here two solucyons, both one & both suche as ye se. But nowe shall ye se hym playe the man in the thyrde. For thus he teacheth his dyscyples yet a thyrd answere, bycause he seeth well that the tother twayne were nought. Tyndale. Now therfore when they aske vs how we know that yt is the scrypture of god / aske theym howe Iohan Baptyste knewe, and other prophetes whyche god stered vppe in all suche tymes as the scrypyure was in captyuyte vnder ypocryyes. Dyd Iohan byleue that the scrybes, pharysyes, and prestes, were the trew chyrch of god and had hys spyryte, and could not erre? who taught the egles to spye oute theyr pray? euen so the chyldren of god spye out theyr father/ and Chrystes elecyes spye out theyr lorde, and trace ouye the pathes of hys fete and folowe / ye though he go vppon yhe playne and lyquide water, whyche wyll receyue no steppe. And yet there they fynde out his fote/ hys electe know hym, but the worlde knoweth hym not Iohan.i. If the worlde know hym not, and thou call the worlde pryde, wrath, enuye, couetousnesse, slowth, glotonye, and lechery, then our spyrytualtye knowe hym not. Chrystes shepe heare the voyce of Cryste Iohan.x. where the worlde of ypocrites as they knowe hym not, euen so the wolues heare not his voyce, but compell the scrypture to heare them and to speke what they lyste. And therfore excepte the lorde of Sabooth hadde lefte vs seed/ we had ben all as Sodome and Gommor sayde Esaias in his fyrste chapyyer. And euen so sayd Paule in his tyme. And so euen say we in our tyme, that the lorde of the hostes hath saued hym seed, and hath gathered hym a flocke, to whome he hath geuen eares to heare and eyes to se that the blynde leaders of the blynde can not se/ and an herte to vnderstande, that the generacyon of poysoned vypers can neyther vnderstande nor knowe. More. Lo good crysten readers, here maye ye clerely se what a strength this reason of holy saynt Austayne hath, agaynst whyche these heretikes are fayne to fynde so many shyftes [Si] and euer the latter ye lewder. For in thys answere Tyndale is yet ferther fallen in foly, thenne in any of those two that he made before, as fonde as they were bothe. Theffecte of all thys answere is, that hym self and such other hys felowes as take opynyons agaynst the knowen catholyke chyrch, nede not to recognyse and knowlege the knowen catholyke chyrche for the very chyrche/ and that the reason that saynt Austayne made therfore is not suffycyent/ that is to say, that sauynge for this catho- lyke chyrch they shold not haue knowen any trewth at all, not so mych as whyche were the trewe gospell and whyche not/ & therfore sholde not haue byleued the gospell saue for thys catholyke chyrche. Thys reason sayth Tyndale is nothyng worth. For we that are electe sayth he and therfore are the very chyrch, do not knowe by the catholyke chyrche whych is the very gospell and the trew scrypture/ no more then dyd saynt Iohan Baptyste and the other holy prohetes afore hym, knowe whyche was the trewe scrypture of god by the scrybes and pharyseys and the hygh prestes/ whom they dyd not knowledge for the trewe chyrche, nor for those that had the spyryte of god and coulde not erre. But hys felowes and he syth they be goddes electes and therfore the very chyrche, do knowe he sayth whyche is the gospell and whych is the very scrypture, by the same meanes by whyche saynt Iohan Baptyste and the other holy pro- phetes before hym knewe the very scrypture of god/ that is to wytte by the secrete inwarde techynge of the spyryte of god/ euyn in lyke wyse as the egle wythout the techynge of any other, spyeth per- ceyueth & knoweth whyche beste or byrd is mete for hys meate and conuenyent for hys pray, by the secrete inwarde mocyon and in- stincte of nature. And therfore by thys answere is that reason of saynt Austayne auoyded. Here is lo good chrysten reader all his answere & his goodly solucyon, nothyng lefte out that hath any strength or force towarde the purpose, but layed yet more dyrectely for hys purpose then Tyndale layeth it hym selfe/ saue for leuynge out of the raylynge, wherof we maye peraduenture som what touche by the way. But fyrste consyder what blont sotletees & what folysh fallacys he bryngeth in thys answere. He wold brynge vs frome the poynte, wyth lykenynge the whole catholyque [Siv] chyrche of Cryste, that is to wytte the whole multytude of all trewe chrysten people of whyche our mater is, vnto the scrybes and the pharyseys, & the hygh prestes/ as though they alone had ben the whole chyrche of the Iewes/ or the hygh prestes of one town, the whole vniuersall synagoge. Thys sotletye of Tyndale is as blont as a blocke, and to great for any man to stumble at ys hath any eyen in his hed. Nor I nede not for this mater to defende that the whole synagoge coulde not erre in the choyce of the scrypture, nor that the whole synagoge was vntyll Crystes comynge the very chyrche of god ney- ther, nor to admytte as Tyndale here maketh it euery thynge to go lyke betwene the whole synagoge of Moyses and the catholyke chyrche of Cryste/ bytwene whyche twayne, all be it that the tother was for that whyle the very chyrch in dede, there is yet in maner as great dyfference, as is bytwene the fygure and the thynge, the shadow and the body/ as by many maner thinges farre dyfferent I myght well shew you/ & among other no small dyfference bytwene them, in the thynge that most properly perteyneth vnto the poynt wherupo specyally dependeth the mater that we haue in hande, that is to wytte the kepyng & preseruyng of the tone or the tother from all dampnable errour. In thys poynt I saye there is specyall dyssymyly. tude bytwene the synagoge and the chyrche/ for the promyses that Cryste hath made vnto the chyrche to sende hys holy spyryte in to it to lede it in to all trouth, and that it sholde dwell therin for euer, and hym selfe be permanent also therin for euer. And therfore syth all these infallible meanes of techyng of the trowth & preseruacyon of the trowth, hath ben made vnto the chyrche of Cryst by hym that is hym selfe trowth & therfore can not lye / which promyses were neuer made a lyke vnto the Iewes: I nede not here as I saye no more answere Tindale, though in dede haue done & wyll, then I nede in a maner yf he wolde put his en- samples by some other ys were a fals chirch & were deceyued, & had fals scripturs in dede. For it is inough to me that the chyrch of Crist hath that gyfte of god by his great promyses, that it shall euer be by him & his spyrit led into euery necessary treuth/ of whyche one of the most necessary is, to knowe whych is the trewe scrypture. And it is inough agaynste Tyndale, that hys owne mayster Luther sayth that thys catholyke [Si] knowen chyrche hath that gyfte. And it is a clere thyng to me and all chrysten men, that none other chyrche hath that gyfte but the catholyke chyrche/ syth euery man seeth that the thynge is trewe whyche saynt Austayne sayth, that he had not knowen whyche had ben the very gospell, & therfore had not byleued the gospell, saue for the catholyque chyrche. And as that holy saynt sayth of hym selfe/ so may euery man Well saye of hym selfe, that by the catholyke chyrche he knoweth the scrypture/ whyche no man can reken hym selfe surely to knowe by any other folke, then those whom he rekeneth surely to be the very true chyrche and the messenger of god to tell it hym. For ellys maye euery fole se, that as he dowteth of the messenger, he must nedys dowte of the message. And therfore now lette vs loke on this answere of Tyndale. I lerned not sayth he of the catholyke chyrche to know whyche is the  trewe scrypture. Of what man than say we? Of no man sayth he but euyn god hym selfe/ and so sayth he do all my felowes that are the electes of god as I am. We lerne it now of our lorde hym selfe, as dyd of olde our other felowes that are gone before vs that were elected of god as we be, that is to saye saynt Iohan Baptyste and the other holy prophetes before hym. Here ye se good readers for aughte that euer I can do, Tyndale wylbe saynt Iohan Baptystes felowe, and all his companyons felowes wyth the olde prophetes and wyth Chrystes apostles, and in some laces wyth Chryste hym selfe also. But thys wyll I promyse you, that yf saynt Iohan Baptyste and the lde prophetes, eche of the other prophetes in theyr tyme, had had wyth the Iewys the same thynges in questyon that we haue wyth Luther and Tyndale & these other heretykes in our tyme/ that is to saye yf the Iewes had sayd that they had bysyde the scrypture some ther tradycyon delyuered them by Moyses, & preserued fro mouth to mouth wythout wrytynge / or that they had varyed to gyther vppon the ryght vnderstandyng of the scrypture, & then the Iewes wolde haue sayd ye know not whych is the scrypture but in that ye byleue vs/ & then yf ye byleue vs in ys, we tell you Moyses rote vs this, why sholde you not as well byleue vs when we tell you Moises told vs this? [Siv] If ye thynke we lye in the tone, ye maye thynke we lye in bothe, and then do ye knowe neyther nother. And also sytb ye byleue vs that god hath gyuen vs the trewe scrypturs, and vnto no man ellys so myche as the meane to knowe whych it is but onely by vs/ why sholde ye not thynke that he hath gyuen vs the ryght and trewe vnderstandyng therof for as farre at the leste as. shalbe requysyte and necessary? If these had bene the varyaunces bytwene the Iewes and saynt Iohan baptyste, or bytwen the Iewes and the prophetes, as it is bytwene these heretykes and vs/ and that the Iewes had then layed thus vnto them: yf that then saynt Iohan and the prophetes coulde haue made no better answere to them for theyr selfe, then Tyndale doth to vs now for hym selfe/ surely than lyke as thys answere is such that we maye well laugh at hym, so had it be such as the Iewes wolde haue laughed at them. But neyther were these poyntes the questyons then bytwene theym (though some of thys was afterwarde in debate bytwene Cryste and the pharyseys) and therfore these ensamples of saynt Iohan and the prophetes be layed here to no purpose. And also yf it had so bene/ saynt Iohan and those prophetes had other answeres to haue made them, suche as I haue shewed you in my syxte boke. And fynally yf they wolde haue vsed thys answere that Tyndale here maketh, bothe for them and hym selfe/ then yf the Iewes had laughed therat, and sayd how proue you that god hath taughte you to knowe the trewe scrypture wythout vs/ they had not onely the knowen approued vertue of theyr lyuynge, but also myracles to proue them trew messengers. And thus had euery one of theym/ and saynte Iohan bothe in hys father before hys concepcyon, and then agayne at hys byrthe, and the olde prophecye fulfylled in hym, and they wyetnsse of Cryste testyfyed for hym, & therby dyd all Crystes myracles bere wytnesse wyth hym. These thynges had they for theyr answere, wyth which the Iewes well myghte and of reason muste, haue holden them selfe fully content and satysfyed. And now in lyke wyse, for as mych as I knowe well ys god is at hys owne lybertye, hauynge hys power absolute free & vnbounden vnto any maner of hys ordynary course/ and therfore maye yf it please hym by some secrete inspyra[Si]cyon, teache Tyndale, & Luther, and Huyskyn, & Swynglius, and all the rable of those electe andn heretykes, whyche wrytynges be the very scnrd ptures of god, wythoute any teachynge of the catholyque chyrche: therfore yf Tyndale or Luther or any of all the remanaunt make by miracle any dew profe ys god hath so done in dede, and that he so hath sent hym hyther for suche a newe prophete to teache vs, he shall haue me plyable. For after that profe onys made/ let hym tell me what he wyll and I wyll byleue hym tyll Antechryste come. For vntyll that tyme I truste heretyques shall do no miracles. But as for yet in the meane season, syth I se none other man say so of hym selfe, as Tyndale saith of hym self & his felowes, and holy saynte Austayne sayth the contrarye of hym self: tyll Tyndale proue yt trew that he sayth of hym selfe, that he knoweth the trew scripture not by the chyrch but by specyall inspyracyon of god inspyred into hym selfe, and some suche other specyall chosen electes, such as no where in this worlde I wene god coulde haue chosen worse/ Tyndale muste of reason geue vs leue to laugh at his prowde inuented folye. And I shall fynde hym foure suertyes very good and suffycyent, that at what tyme herafter he proue hym selfe a trewe prophete, I shall vppon reasonable warnynge onlaugh agayne yt all. But yet leste men shold take hym for a fole, yf he shold set forth suche a poynte so farre vnlykely, and therfore so farre vncredyble, wythoute any profe at all/ he proueth yt at the leste wyse by then- sample of a very goodly byrd and kyng of all fowles, the plesaunt splayed egle. For syth that suche a byrd can spye his pray vntaught, whych he could neuer do but by the secrete instyncte of his excellent nature, to farre excedynge all other: yt muste nedys folowe perde that Tyndale and Luther in lyke wyse, and Huyskyn, and Swynglius, and suche other excellent heretykes, beynge in goddes fauour as farre aboue all the catholyke chyrche as an egle the ryche ryall kynge of all byrdes, is aboue a pore peny cheken/ must nedes I say wythout any lernyng of any man, be tought to knowe the trew Scrypture beyng theyr pray, to spoyle and kyll and deuour yt as they lyste, euen by the specyall inspyracyon of god. But nowe ye se well good reders by thys reason, that saynte Austayne in respecte of these noble egles that spye [Siv] this pray wythout the meane of the chyrch, was but a sely pore cheken. For he confesseth playnely agaynst such hygh egle heretykes, that hym selfe hadde not knowen nor byleued the gospell but by the catholyke chyrche. How be yt yt is no great meruayle, syth god is not so famylyare wyth suche symple chykyns, as wyth his gay gloryouse egles. But one thyng is there that I can not cease to meruayle of/ syth god inspyreth Tyndale and such other egles, and therby maketh them spye this pray them selfe: how could yt happe that the goodly golden olde egle Martyne Luther hym selfe, in whose goodly golden neste thys yonge egle byrde was hached, lakked that inspyracyon? For he aloweth saynte Austayns saynge/ & denyeth not but that hym selfe spyed and perceuyd this pray of the trew scrypture of god, by beynge shewed yt by the catholyke chyrch/ But if Tyndale saye that Luther therin lyeth, and that hym seffe wyth his felynge fayth fele more in Luthers fayth concernynge his bylyefe of the scrypture, than Luther doth hym selfe. How be yt I Wysse when our yonge egle Tyndale lerned to spye this pray fyrste, he was not yet full fethered, but scantly comen out of ys shell/ nor so hygh flykeryd in the aer aboue all oure heddes to lerne yt of his father the olde egle heretyque/ but was content to come downe here and walke on the grounde amonge other pore fowles the pore chykens of his mother thys knowen catholyke chyrche / of whom when he hath all sayde, he lerned to knowe thys praye. And nowe takynge that for trouth (as treuth yt ys in dede though Tyndale lyst to lye and tell vsnay) when he hadde lerned of the chyrche whyche was the scripture/ this wote I well he rekened not hym self at that tyme to vnderstand yt by specyall enspyracyon. For I can proue that he redde some commentours and holy doctours, that wryte exposycyons vppon yt. And to what purpose dyd Tyndale rede theyr bokes? to byleue hym selfe better then them all? If he so ment/ then myghte he well haue spared laboure. For he myghte haue byleued hym selfe and lette theym all alone. Nowe yf he lyste to byleue hym selfe in thynges beynge yet but in questyon, where he seeth them vary and dowte: [Si] yet muste he byleue them better, in thynges so playne and clere, that he seeth them therin all of one mynde agreed. Now go me then yet agayn to frere Luther his mayster and his maystresse the nunne. Wherin he can not say naye but they con- demne hym all/ and then shall ye se for lakke of other shyfte this fayre egle byrde fowle befyle his nest. But yet is yt a worlde to heare, what a goodly castell Tyndale byeldeth in the ayre on hygh vppon hys egles bakke. For when he hath told vs ones that the egle of him selfe wythoute any teachynge, spyeth out his praye/ then goth he forth goodly wyth an hygh spyry. tuall processe, & sayth, <2Euen so the chyldren of god spye oute theyrfather>2 <2and mother.>2 He meaneth of lykelyhed god for the father. But what chyrche meaneth he for his mother? For he can not spye out the vnknowen chyrch. And the knowen catholyke chirch whyche is the spouse of god in dede, and therfore by all the olde holy fathers comenly called the mother of all chrysten people, he wyll not know for his mother. And so I se well Tyndale meneth for his mother, some old mother mawde, some baudy chyrche of hereyykes. But then goth he forth wyth his floryshe on this fashyon. <2And>2 <2Chrystes electe spye oute theyr lorde, and trace oute the pathes of hysfete and>2 <2olowe/ ye though he go vppon the playne and lyquide water, whyche wyll>2 <2receyue no steppe. Andyet there theyfynde out hisfete.>2 These wordes walke lo very goodly by the herers eare, & they make a man amased in a maner & somwhat to studye and muse when he hereth so straunge a tale tolde of suche holy electes, so spyenge oute the fote where the soyle receyueth no fotyng and teppynge, after the steppes of Cryste in the lyquyde water whyche can no steppes receyue, and therfore receyued the steppe of saynt Peter so depe, that he stepped in aboue the knees, and had stepte ouer the hedde to, electe as he was, had not his mayster holpe hym/ but the water doth of trouthe receyue and kepe no steppes of any man, when the body passeth from yt/ but yt receyueth shortely the steppes of euery man, ye and of euery woman to, but she gete her on a pace, wyth tryppe and go quykly and walke wonderouse lyghte. But now yf a man in the redynge forgete not hym selfe wyth musynge, but consydre what he redeth and examyne yt well/ he shall not so myche meruayle of Tyndales farre fette holynesse, as he shall wonder in a man wenynge hym selfe [Siv] so wyse, to se suche folysh forgetefulnesse. For where he sayth now that all thelectes serch out and folow the very steppes of Cryste euyn fote for fote, where neuer a steppe appereth: he hath hym selfe shewed vs in his other chapiters afore, that the electes thorow the faute of theyr frayle membres, though neuer into dedely synne, yet now and then among steppe into theft and aduowtry, treason, manslaughter, and periury, and other such horryble dedes. And these thynges lo many ryght honeste men reken not in theyr reason any folowynge of the steppes of Chryste, but yf Tyndales electe chyrche haue spyed oute any specyall gospell. For the catholyque chyrche in all the foure euangelystes, spyeth not that Cryste stepped any such one steppe in all the dayes of his lyfe. Some men wolde here loke that I sholde also laye to Tyndale, the steppes of frere Luther into the nunnys bed / whose steppes as theyre chyefe electe other lewde electes folowe, very farre fro the steppes that Cryste stepped on the mount of caluary. But let that passe for this onys, and here forth syr wyllyam Tyndales sermon. Tyndale. His electe know hym, but the world knoweth hym not Iohan.i. If the world know hym not, and thou call the worlde pryde, wrath, enuye, couetousnesse, slowth, glotonye, and lechery, then our spyrytualtye knowe hym not. More. Those wordes of oure sauyour sauynge for sekynge of occasyon of raylynge, Tyndale bryngeth in here to very lytle purpose. But as he lysteth here to rayle vpon the clergye of the catholyke chyrch, so yf yt lyke hym now to turne the glasse and loke agayne vppon hym selfe and the holy spyrytuall heddes of hys owne sectes, Luther, Lambert, Huyskyn, and Swynglius, with all the rable of heretikes vnder theyr rule/ he shall fynde by the same texte and hys owne exposycyon therof, that amonge all theym neyther clergye nor laye knoweth Chryste/ but yf rebellyon be no pryde, nor raylynge vppon theyr betters none enuye, nor manslaughter no wrath, nor robbery no couetyse, nor sluggyng a bed no slouth, nor dronkenesse no glotony, nor freres luskyng a bed wyth nunnes no lechery. But he lyketh so ys raylyng, that on he runneth therwyth and sayth. Tyndale. Chrystes shepe heare the voyce of Cryste Iohan.x. where the worlde of ypocri[Ti]tes as they know hym not, euen so the wolues heare not his voyce, but compell the scripture to heare them and to speke what they lyst. And therfore except the lorde of Sabooth hadde lefte vs seed/ we had ben all as Sodome and Gommor sayde Esaias in his fyrste chapyter. And euen so sayd Paule in his tyme. And so euen say we in our tyme, that the lorde of the hostes hath saued hym seed, and hath gathered hym a flocke, to whome he hath geuen eares to heare and eyes to se that the blynde leaders of the blynde can not se/ and an herte to vnderstande, that the generacyon of poysoned vypers can neyther vnderstande nor knowe. More. Now good chrysten reders here hath Tyndale made the prophete Esaye, and saynt Poule, & our sauyour hym selfe as hys seruauntes and instrumentes/ abusynge theyr holy wordes agaynste the catho- lyke chyrche of Cryste/ whyche wordes they spake agaynst Paynims Iewes & heretykes. Now the ipocrytes & wolues he calleth the catholykes/ and the shepe and lambes those he calleth the heretykes / in thys is hys menynge very playne and open. But now the seed that god hath lefte them as he sayth, wyth whyche the god of hostes hath gathered hym this flock, he nameth not. But syth ye knowe the flocke that he meneth, ye maye sone perceyue the menne of whose seed this flocke is fedde. Now loke then vpon the seed, wyth whyche the flocke of the catholyke chyrche hath bene alwaye fedde from age to age/ & in ys seed fynde ye saynt Ignatius, saynt Polycarpus, saynt Deonise, saint Ciprian, saynt Chrysostom, saynt Basyle, saynt Gregory Nazanzene, saint Ireneus, saint Euseby, saynt Athanase, saynt Hylary, saynt Cyryll, saynt Syxtus, saynt Leo, saynt Hierom, saynt Ambrose, saynt Austayne, saynt Gregory the pope, saynt Bede, saynt Bernard, saynt Thomas, saynt Bonauenture, saynt Anselme, and many an holy man mo of euery age synnys the apostles dayes/ which were all lefte by god for seed in the knowen catholyke chyrch/ whyche knowen catholyke chyrch they euer knowleged for the very chyrch of Cryste, & toke alway for heretykes all that departed from it. And all these expouned thapostles and euangelystes agaynst Luther & Tyndale, as the catholyke chyrch doth now. Wherin yf Tyndale dare saye that I saye false/ I shall yet onys agayn lyke a blynde harpar ys harpeth all on one stringe, fall to my rude refrayte, & synge hym myne olde song/ wherin I haue so often prayed hym to tell vs then some one of them all that euer accompted it lawfull & held it not abominable a frere to wedde a nonne. [Tiv] Now the seed that hath all thys whyle ben sent vnto this flocke, whych Tyndale sayth that the lorde of hostes hath gathered hym togyther / haue ben Nicholas heretyke, Eutiche heretyke, Ebyon heretyke, Valentinus heretyke, Eunomius heretyke, Arrius heretyke, Marcion here tyke, Montanus heretyke, Manicheus heretyke, Heluidius heretyke Macedonius heretyke, Iouinian heretyke, Pelagius heretyke, and Celestius heretyke, & of euery age some such a shrewd sort down vnto wicliffe heretyke, & Husse heretyke, & Luther heretyke, & Lambert heretyke, and Huyskyn heretyke, and Tyndale heretyke, Barns heretyke, & many such ryffe raffe mo. Of all whych euer one contraryeth his felow in great articles of the fayth, and in thex- posycyon of scripture, as by which euery one of them wold seme to proue trewe his false contraryouse errour. And therfore as god ys kynge of peace & vnyte, and very lorde of hostes also, sent the tothe good seed vnto his knowen catholyke chyrche, & gathered and kept it togyther, & togyther kepe it shall spyght of all heretykes and all th greate gates of hell: so is it no dowte but that the sower of dyssencyon and kynge of rebellyon, the prynce of pryde the great deuyll hym self, hath gathered thys flocke to hym, and sent alway now and than such darnell seed and cocle to fede them. But waye well yet agayn good reder that ryall ende of hys raylynge, wherin he sayth that the lorde of hostes hath to thys flocke of thes heretykes <2gyuen eares to heare that the ipocretyshe wolues can not heare, and>2 <2eyes to se that the blynde leders of the blynd can not se, and an harte to vnder->2 <2stande, that the generacyon of vypers can neyther vnderstande ne knowe.>2 I nede not to putte you in mynde, that by the wolues & ipochrytes and blynde leders, he meneth the doctours and techers of the catho- lyke chyrche/ and by the blynd that are mysse ledde into the dyche, the laye people of the same chyrche/ & by the tother flocke ys haue all these goodly gyftes of god, ye scatered flocke of his vnknowen chirch of his electes, that byleue it lawfull for freres to wedde nonnes / among whom yet he nameth & men know many wel knowen knaues. Consyder nowe that oure present mater for whyche he bryngeth in all these wordes, and towarde the profe wherof he brought in the wordes of Cryste, that Crystes owne shepe here hys voyce, but the worlde hereth it not/ is no thynge ellys but to shew, that Tyndals chyrche of electes [Ti] doth not knowe the scrypture by the techyng of the catholyke chyrch, but by god hym selfe / as saynt Iohan Baptyst and the prophetes dyd, and as the egle knoweth hys pray by the secrete instyncte of nature. Consider than how farre he goth ferther now then euer he went before. For here in the ende he not onely concludeth for his here- tykes, that they here Cristes voice/ but also for the catholyke chyrch the contrary/ that is to saye that the catholyke chyrche neyther can here, se, nor vnderstand, nor knowe the voyce of Cryst, that is to wytte the gospell and scrypture of god. And thus he bryngeth all his paynted processe to this poynt in conclusyon/ that lyke as here before his mayster Marten and he, wolde that in tlle vnderstandyng of scrypture, no man sholde stande to the fayth & exposycyon of the hole catholyke chyrche/ but syth god as he sayth techeth hys electes hym selfe, and who they be no man knoweth of an other/ but by Tyndale thorowe the felynge fayth euery man knoweth hym selfe, & euery man as Luther sayth byleueth for hym selfe, & yf he be deceyued ys perell falleth also vpon hym selfe/ euery man therfore in construynge the scrypture must truste vnto hym selfe: as hytherto they haue thus sayd concernyng the vnderstandyng, so doth Tyndale now teche them in that that towcheth the knowynge whych is the scrypture, so that hereafter euery lewde body sholde be bolde to say that hym self is one of Crystes shepe, & therfore vnderstandeth his voyce, & can dyscerne his worde, & knoweth hym selfe whych is the very scrypture/ as saynt Iohan Baptyste dyd and the olde prophetes & the apostles of Cryst, and as the egle knoweth his pray by an onely inwarde mocyon. And then shall he thus call scrypture what boke hym lyst, & refuse for scrypture what boke it please hym. And some of them begyn all redy gyuyng no credence to no man but yf it be Some of theyr owne brayne, some of suche excellent holynesse as all the world may perceyue for electe and chosen sayntes, by raylyng, & rybaldry, rebellyon, debate, and stryfe, by bybbyng, & syppyng, & soppyng, & quaftyng, and wurshypfull weddyng of nonnes. And here lo the goodly conclusyon of Tyndals thyrde answere vnto saynt Austayns reason. But now shall ye se the wylynes. For where as all thys whyle he hath dyssembled, and wolde not be aknowen that thys reason was taken of saynt [Tiv] Austayne, bycause he wolde at more lybertye lashe out his raylynge agaynste it: seynge yet that the thynge was so playne & open/ he hath at the laste bythought hym, and rekened it beste to knowlege and confesse it. And now therfore for hys fourth answere, herke I requyre you how properly the wyse man soyleth it. Tyndale. If they alledge saynt Austayne, which sayth I hadde not byleue the gospell excepte the authoryye of the chyrche had meuyd me: I answere as they abuse that sayenge of the holy man, euen so they allege all the scrypture, and all that they brynge for them, euyn in a false sense. S. Augustyne before he was conuerted was an hethen man and a philosopher full of worldly wysdome, vnot whom the preachyng of Cryste is but folyshnes, sayth paul .i. Corin. i. And he dysputed wyth blynde reasons of worldly wysdome agaynst the chrysten. Neuerthelesse the ernest lyuynge of the chrysten accordyng vnto theyr doctrine, and the constant soferyng of persecucyon and aduersyte for theyr doctrynes sake, moued hym and stered hym to byleue that it was no vayne doctryne/ but that it must nedes be of god, in that it had such power with it. For it happeneth that they whiche wyll not heare the worde at the beginnynge/ are afterwarde moued by the holy conuersacyon of them that byleue. As Peter warneth christen wyues that had hethen husbandes that wolde not heare the treuth preched, to lyue so godly that they myghte wynne theyr hethen husbandes with holy conuersacyon. And paul sayth, How knowest thou chrysten wyfe, whether thou shalt wynne thyne hethen husbande? With holy conuersacyon ment he. For many are wonne with godly lyuynge/ which at the fyrst ether wyll not heare nor can not byleue. And that is the authoryte that.s. Augustyne ment. But yf we shall not byleue tyll the lyuynge of the spyrytualty conuerte vs/ we be lyke to byde longe inough in vnbylyefe. More. Lo good chrysten readers, here haue you Tyndals answere. And now let vs fyrste suppose that in thys answere he tolde vs trewe, that saynt Austayne ment as he sayeth here he dyd, & that he byleued the chyrche but for the good lyuynge and vertuouse conuersacyon that he thenne sawe therin: yet was at the leste wyse the chyrche that he ment of, the knowen catholyke chyrche, and not an vnknowen chyrche of electes. And so is Tyndale shortely quyte ouerthrowen therin to. Also though Tyndale sayd here trew of saynt Austayns mynde, that he byleued the chyrche bycause they were then good men: yet Standeth that order styll, that he fyrste byleued the catholyke knowen chyrche, and fyrste knewe and [Ti] knowleged and byleued it, and then of it and by it receyued and knewe and knowleged and byleued the scripture to be the very word of god. And so is Tindale styl ouerthrowen. Ye sayeth Tyndale that is trew / but he was broughte into the bylyefe of the chyrche that then was, by the good vertuouse leuynge that then was in yt/ as saynte Peter counsayled the crysten wyues wyth crysten lyuynge and vertuouse conuersacyon, to wynne theyr vncristen husbandes vnto crystendome. <2But yf we>2 (sayth Tyndale) <2shulde not>2 <2byleue tyll the lyuynge of the spyrytualty conuerte vs, we be lyke to abyde longe>2 <2ynough in vnbylyefe.>2 Well. Suppose fyrste that Tyndale sayde trewe, yet foloweth yt at the last ys saynt Austayne was none of those holy electes, those gaye golden egles, that be taughte inwardely wythout any outwarde teachynge. But now wolde I that Tyndale here rehersed vs what was the lyuynge, and whyche were the vertues that so flowred in the chyrch, that was in saynte Austayns tyme. Fyrst as for persecucyon that Tyndale speketh of/ ye catholyque chyrch had not in his tyme any greater persecucyon by heretykes in Affryke, then yt hadde now these late yeres in Almayne/ and I wene as many good chrysten men haue constantely suffred harme, and as myche to, in Saxonye, and Suycherlande, and some other partes of Germany, by the Lutherane heretykes, and the Huyskyns, & Swynghanes, as there dyd in llys tyme in Affryque by the Donatystes. Then as for the other vertues and maners that then were in the chyrche, for whyche saynte Austayne dyd as Tyndale sayth byleue yt/ and wolde not yf he nowe lyued and were vnconuerted, so receyue and byleue the scrypture by the chyrche: now wolde god that Tyndale had rehersed those maners and those vertues, that we myght therby perceyue whether saynte Austayne yf he were nowe alyue, and suche as he was byfore hys conuersyon & wolde not be conuertyd by the catholyke chyrche, were lykely to be conuerted by the conuersacyon of theyrs, by the holy lyuynge of Luther, and Lambert, and Huskyn, and suche a rable of wedded munkes and freres. And yet yf he so were/ then muste yt be ye wote well a knowen chyrch. For of an vnknowen chyrche could he not be moued, nor take none authoryte / and so were Tyndals [Tiv] chyrche of his vnknowen electes clere gone agayn, for any fortherauns of saynte Austaynes fayth. And therfore muste we then wyt of hym farther, whyche of all his chyrches, which of his false scismatyke sectes, were yt that sholde do thys dede and wynne vs in saynte Austayn, that shuld be suche a trew doctour of the trew chyrch. There is good reders a boke whyche saynte Austayne wryteth agaynste heretyques of his owne tyme, that dyspraysed then the lyuyng of the crysten people of the catholyke chyrch, extollyng the holy vertuouse lyuyng of theyr owne secte/ by whyche we may well se ys heretykes had yet at that day a right fayre visage of very ver- tuouse lyuyng, and preached not theyr heresies with defence of open shamfull lechery, as these bestely heretykes do nowe. But saynt Austayne, all be yt lie coulde not say naye, but that in tlle chyrche there were as well badde as good: yet descrybeth he partely the vycyouse lyuynge and partely the ypocrysy to, that was then amonge those heretyques, and bysydes that the vertuouse lyuynge that then was amonge many good folke of the catholyke chyrche. And what vertues be those? surely euen the same that the knowen catholike chyrch teacheth now, and which vertues in this catholyke chyrch many a good man both spyrytuall and temporall yet vnto this daye god be thanked very well kepe and obserue/ howe be yt the fewer a great many, syth these deuelyshe heresyes came vppe. And this dare I well promyse Tyndale, let hym rede ouer that boke when he wyll, in whyche saynt Austayn reherseth the vertues ys he prayseth in the chyrche/ & when he hath well and perfytely redde yt onys ouer, or yf he lyste hardely twyse or thryes yt can be no losse of his tyme/ and this I say wyll I gladly geue hym wyth yt let hym take myn yie for an apple, yf he fynde yt in all the boke commended for any great vertue, a frere to wedde a nunne. And therfore syth Tyndale alloweth saynte Austayne and the vertues that then were in the chyrch/ I wyll bynd hym to none other, but that that he now prayseth and commendeth hym selfe. Lette hym no more but byleue saynte Austayne/ and then shall he byleue the sacramentes/ and go to shryfte, whych he now calleth the deuyls inuencyon / and shall take absolucyon, whyche he now calleth whystelynge / and shall gladly do penaunce, that he nowe calleth [Ti] synne/ and shall byleue the knowen catholyke chyrche and knowlege yt for the chyrche of cryste, and shall take theym all for heretykes that departe oute therof, and shall byleue surely ye determynacyon therof, and take them all for heretykes that wyll holde the contrary/ and then wyll he shaue his crowne agayne, and saye matens and masse after the olde fashyon, and putte of his knaues cote and waxe an honeste man / and then he wyll aduyse frere Luther to lye no more wyth nunnes. Hytherto good chrysten reder haue I so reasoned thys poynte of saynt Austaynes wordes, as though Tyndales answere vnto them were trew. And then yf they so were in dede/ yet what good effecte hath Tyndale therupon ye perceyue. For though it so were in dede, yet were Tyndale neuer the nere/ but alway wolde yt folowe as I haue shewed you, that the very chyrche must nedes be a knowen chirch, and neyther any chyrche of vnknowen heretykes, nor any knowen chyrche of all these heretykes neyther/ nor fynally none other but onely thys comen knowen catholyque chyrche. But nowe good reder, for as myche as Tyndale sayth that the chyrche doth falsely take saynt Austayne and contrary to hys mynde, euen in lyke maner as he sayeth they do all the scrypture, to blynde and bygyle the people with: we be very gladde he sayth so. And as Tyndale hath here hym selfe put these wordes of saynte Austayne for ensample, how the chyrche vseth yt selfe in thexposy- cyon of scrypture/ so shall we be very well content ye take yt / and that by this one poynt ye may perceyue and iudge, whyther the chyrche or Tyndale expowneth here saynt Austayne more trewly/ and therby iudge lykewyse as Tyndale here wold haue you, both the chyrch and hym in the trew or the false expownynge of all the scrypture of god, where eyther part sayth the tother expowneth wronge. Now saye we then that where Tyndale sayeth that the cause why saynt Austayne dyd byleue the chyrch, was bycause they were then good men/ Tyndale doth but dyuyse that tale vppon his owne hed, to seke some euasyon where he myght gete oute. For bysydes that yt appereth playne by saynte Hierome, that there were at that tyme the same vyces in the catholyke chyrche that are now, all saue weddynge of folke that hadde vowed chastyte/ I saye that in [Tiv] the place where saynte Austayne wryteth those wordes, he speket neuer a worde that the vertuouse lyuynge of the chyrche caused hy to byleue it, nor nothyng in that place speketh of the vertuouse lyuynge of the chyrche, nor of the persecucyon/ but in many other places he confesseth, that the chyrche then was as we se yt nowe is. a congregacyon and company of both good and badde. And that in this boke wryten agaynst Cresconius, he alledget that holy martyr saynt Cypriane, and reherseth his wordes wryte in hys pystle that he wrote vnto Maximus/ by whyche he sheweth that men maye not leue the chyrche bycause of the euyll folke that be therin. For in the chyrche there be both good and badde, as there are in the feld of god wherof Cryste speketh in the gospell both good corne and cocle/ and in a great house as saynt Poule saith to Timothe there are not only golden vessellis and syluer, but also trene and erthen. These wordes of holy saynte Cypriane doth holy saint Austay reherse and approue/ wherby men may well perceyue, that bot saynt Cypryane and saynt Austayn to, dyd take the chyrch for non other then the knowen catholyke chirch/ and knewe that chyrche ryght well, not for a companye of onely good men, but of good and badde bothe, and so be they styll what euer Tyndale say. But yet this one thyng dyd both saynt Cyprian & saint Austayne say, that of all that departe oute of this chyrche, there is not one good nor can not be good, vntyll in harte they resorte therto agayne. And for that cause is yt called holy chyrche / not for that euery man is holy that is in yt, but for that many suche be in yt, and none can be holy that wyll not be in yt. And to thentent that ye may the more clerely perceyue, that Tyndale here to blynd vs wyth, deuyseth of his own hedde this euasyon, that saynte Austayne byleued not the chyrche in his days but bycause of theyr constaunce in persecucyon and theyr holynesse of lyuynge: who so loke vppon the place where he wryteth those wordes, that is to wlt in his boke agaynste the pystle of Manicheus theretyke, of whose secte saynte Austayne hadde ben onys hym selfe/ wythout any consyderacyon of persecucion or holy lyuyng, layeth other consyderacyons that made hym know and byleue the catholyke chyrche of hys dayes/ that is to wytte [Vi] the consent of the catho- lyke chrysten nacyons/ and that he had the catholyke chyrche in authoryte, fyrst for the myracles that were shewed therin/ and that therupon his fayth and credence geuen therunto, was nurysshed and fostered therunto, was nurysshed and fostered confermed with antiquite. There helde hym he sayd in the gyuynge of fayth and credence to the catho- lyke chyrche thys thynge also, that is to wyt that he sawe the suc- cessyon contynued in the see of saynt Peter, to whom our lorde had after his resurreccyon commytted the fedynge of his shepe sayth saynt Austayne, from saynt Peters dayes vnto hys owne tyme. And fynally euyn the very name he sayth of catholyke, that is to say vniuersall, gaue toward the gettyng of his credence the catholyke hyrche great authoryte/ whych name of vniuersall the same chyrche lone amonge so many heresyes hadde so obtayned, that where as uery secte of heretykes wold fayne be taken for catholykes, yet yf a straunger shold come amonge them & aske where were any catholyke chyrche that he myghte go to, there were none heretyke ys durst for shame bryng hym to any chyrch or any house of theyrs. These causes lo layed saynt Austayne, all whyche causes are in the atholyke chyrch styll/ these he layd I say for the authoryte of the atholyke chyrch, for whyche he sayde he gave so fast fyrme & vndouted credence to it, that for ys authoryte therof he byleued the gospell at the teching ther of And these causes he layd vnto the heretykes, as causes that he thought shold of reason moue them therto also. And yet to the entent ye shall the more clerely se, howe Tyndale wolde wyth hys lyes blynde vs / and what ferme credence saynt Austayn gaue to the knowen catholyke chyrche wythout mencyon of eyther persecucyon or vertuouse lyuynge, as Tyndale wolde here make vs wene: I shall translate and reherse you here saynt Austayns owne wordes wryten in the fyfth chapyter of hys sayd boke agaynst the pystle of Manicheus. In whych place saynt Austayne dysputeth agaynst the heretykes of that secte, and proueth them, that lyke as he that byleueth the catholyke chyrche hath good suretye of hys bylyefe, & is able to shewe good causes of his bylyefe all thoughe there were no scrypture wryten/ so on the tother syde, the Manycheys bycause they byleued not the catholyke chyrche, and lykewyse who so euer byleueth it not, can neuer proue any thynge for theyr purpose, neyther to hym that byleueth not the scrypture, [Viv] nor yet vnto hym neyther that doth byleue the scrypture. And therfore saynt Austayn hauyng rehersed before what thynges be suffycyent to make hym byleue the catholyke chyrche bysyde the scrypture/ doeth nowe in thys chapyter dyspute wyth them, & shew them that they & all suche heretykes as go fro the fayth of ys catholyke chyrch, can neuer proue theyr parte good, neyther to hym that refuseth the scrypture, nor to hym that byleueth it. And therin lo thus he sayth. Let vs se therfore what Manicheus techeth me/ & specyally let vs consyder the selfe same booke that ye call the pystle of the fundacyon, in whyche is conteyned almoste all that ye byleue. When that same pystle was redde vnto vs at that tyme wrechys that we were, we were wont to bowe downe and say Amen. Thus begynneth the pystle. Manicheus the apostle of Iesu Chryst, thorow the prouydence of god the father / these be the holsome wordes issuynge out of the euer flowynge founteyne of lyfe. Now I praye you and it please ye herken pacyentely what I shall aske you. I byleue not thys man to be the apostle of Cryste. I beseche you be not angry nor begynne to chyde/ ye knowe well that I am determyned nothynge rasshely to byleue that ye bryng forth. I aske you therfore who is thys Manicheus. Ye answere me ys apostle of Crist. I bileue it not. Now haue ye nothing that ye can eyther saye or do. Ye promysed to teche me and make me to know the trewth, & now ye wolde make me byleue the thyng that I know not. Ye wyll peraduenture rede me the gospell, and labour to proue me the persone of Manicheus by the wordes of the gospell. But now yf I shold fynde you out some man that yet byleued not the gospell, What coulde ye then say for Manicheus, to hym that wolde saye vnto you I byleue not the gospell? Now as for me, I wold not byleue the gospell but yf the authoryte of the catholyke chyrche moued me therto. Thenne syth I obeyd them in that they bode me byleue the gospell/ why shold I not byleue them in that they bydde me byleue not Manicheus? wyll ye now that I byleue the catholike chirch or not? Chese now your selfe whyther parte ye wyll/ yf ye byd me byleue the catholyke chyrch they be those that byd me ys I sholde not in any wyse gyue any credence vnto you. Wherfore byleuyng them, I can in no wyse byleue you. [Vi] Then on the tother syde, yf ye wolde saye to me, byleue not the catholyke chyrch: then can ye not of reason bynde me by the gospell to byleue Manicheus, syth I had not byleued the gospellit selfe but for the catholyke chyrche. Now yf ye wolde then say to me, thou dydest well to byleue the catholyke chyrch in that they commended the gospel, but thow doste not well to byleue them in ys they dysprayse Manicheus: wene ye me so very a fole, that tellyng me no cause wherfore, I shold byleue what so euer ye byd me, and byleue in no wyse what ye lyste forbyd me? yet mych more reasonably & more cyrcumspectely do now I, in that I departe not from ys catholyke chyrche whych I haue onys byleued, & translate my selfe to you, but yf that ye can fyrst not bydde and commaund me byleue, but openly and clerely somwhat make me knowe, wherfore good reason wolde I shold byleue. Wherfore yf ye wyll shew me any reason, then let the gospell alone. For yf you take you to ye gospel/ then wyll I take me to the chyrch, by whose commaundement I byleued the gospell/ and then by the commaundement of the same chyrche, I must in no wyse byleue yow. Now yf it so were that ye coulde by possybylyte fynde in the gos- pell somwhat, that coulde clerely proue Manicheus to be Crystes apostle/ then must it folow theruppon (yf I sholde byleue you ther- fore) that I must then not byleue the catholyke chyrche whyche byddeth me byleue not you. And then agayn yf I byleue not the chyrche, then can I not byleue the gospell, syth I byleue the gospell for the chyrche/ & so could nothynge serue you that ye shold bryng of the gospell. And therfore yf ye brynge no clere thyng out of ys gospell to proue Manicheus Crystes apostle, I must rather byleue the catholyke chyrche then you. And on the tother syde, yf ye found for Manicheus any manyfest thynge in the gospell/ then coulde I neyther byleue the chyrche nor you/ not the chyrche bycause they lyed to me of you when they told me ye were not to be byleued, nor you bycause ye proue your parte but by that scripture, which scrypture I byleued not but thorow byleuyng them whom I ought not to byleue, bycause they proue them self false in makyng a lye of you. But god forbyd that I shold not byleue the gospell/ for byleuyng the gospell I can not fynde how I shold byleue you. For among all the apostles names ys are there found, ys name of Manicheus is not found. [Viv] Lo good chrysten reders here se ye playnely that Tyndale is tellynge vs that saynt Austayne, where he sayth he wolde not byleue the gospell it selfe sauynge for the authoryte of the chyrche, dyd mene theirn nothyng ellys, but the good lyuynge that then was in the chyrche, and theyr constaunce in persecucyon ledde hym to byleue them in techyng whyche was the scrypture: it well appereth I say by saynt Austayns owne wordes, that the chyrche truely taketh his wordes, and Tyndale vntruely gloseth them. For neyther doth saynt Austayne in this arguyng reproue the lyuyng of the Manycheise, nor extolle and commende the lyuynge of the catholyke chyrche/ but in suche wyse maketh his argument, as it both maye and muste serue for the knowen catholyke chyrche agaynste all kyndes of heretykes, what so euer the lyuynge be of the tone parte or the tother. And this argument is made more stronge now by thre partes, than it was whan he made it. And syth the chyrche shall as Cryst promysed neuer fayle / the argument of saynt Austayne for some of the causes consydered, shall euery daye be strenger for the chyrche then other, as longe as ye world shall stande. For saynt Austayne alledgeth there for one ofthe causes that moued hym, the contynuaunce of the chyrclle, whiche than had contynued in successyon aboute the space of foure hundred yere. How mych is that stronger now after the contynuaunce in successyon the space of .xv.C. yeres? And as for myracles wyth whych as saynt Austayne sayth they that byleue not be fyrst comenly moued to gyue fayth and credence/ the comon knowen catholyke chyrche neuer lacketh, nor no chyrch of heretykes neuer hath. And thus I saye good reders, ye may perceyue by that place in saynt Austayne whyche I haue rehersed you, and by hys other foure chapyters immedyate before, that the mynde and entent of saynt Austayne is playne, that god of his goodnesse offereth men occasyon, and by good and substancyall causes helpeth them that are wyllynge fyrste of all to knowe the trewe chyrche, of whyche euery trewe precher is a member. And then lyke as god vseth myracles & dyuers other meanes, by whyche meanes his helpe & grace maketh the well wyllyng person to perceyue & know whyche is his very chyrch: so doth he after vse the same chyrch for a meane, by whych he maketh a man know whych is the [Vi] very scrypture/ ye and ouer that in thynges necessarye for saluacyon, whych is the very sense and the trew vnderstandynge of the very scrypture. Ye and when god hath vsed the knowledge of the chyrche, to make a man know whyche is the scrypture/ then is the same scrypture a very sure meane to conferme him the faster and ye more surely, in the knowlege & byhefe of the chyrch/ he shall so surely therin se proued the thynge that he before perceyued and byleued, that the catholyke chyrche is the very chyrche. And this is the trew order and the playn entente and menynge of saynt Austayne, as yt playnely appereth as well in his byfore remem- bryd boke, as in the worke of his confessyons in the order of his owne conuersyon/ and very playnly in a pystle of his agaynst the Don- atystes, whych is in his boke of pystles .cxlviii. In whych saynt Austayn playnely sheweth that the knowen catholyke chyrche is playnely by scrypture proued the very chyrche / and that in all doutes and questyons, euery man muste stande vnto that ende, whych shall be eyther by the same chyrch determyned, or by the generall custome of the same chyrche approued. Saynte Austayne also in his thyrde boke agaynste the pystle of Permeniane sayth in playne wordes, that there is no suertye of any vnyte but yf the chyrche be declared and knowen / whyche accordyng to goddes promyse sette vppon an hyll, can in no wyse be hydden/ and therefore muste yt nedes be, that the chyrche is thorowe the worlde knowen. And none is nor neuer was thorowe the worlde knowen for the chyrche of Chryste, but onely the knowen catholyke chyrche. Saynte Austayn also in his pystle to Vincentius, whyche pystle is in order the.xlviii, sayth in this wyse expressely. How can we byleue by the scrypture of god, that Cryst is comen into the worlde and knowen, yf we byleue not therby that the chyrch is also manyfest and knowen? lette any man who so wyll knyt and put in agaynste the playn trowth, all the hokes and handles that he can/ let hym cast afore oure yien what mystes of wyly falshed that he lyst/ and when he hath all done, loke how he is accursed, that wyll tell vs that Chryste neyther veryly dyed nor veryly rose agayn/ euen lykewyse accursed shall he be, that wyll tell vs for the very chyrche any other then this comen ca[Viv]tholyke chyrche of all crysten nacyons. Lo good reder Tyndale sayde here before, ys we wolde not byleue saynte Austayne nor any of the olde holy doctours, as though hym self wolde. And now haue ye hard saynte Austayne / whome yf Tyndale wyll byleue, all our questyon is decyded. For he sayth as we saye, that the comen catholyque chyrch is the very chyrch. And yf he wyll not byleue hym/ then let hym leue lyke as he is to lay hys owne faute to other folke. Good crysten reders yf my purpose were here to proue you by the consente of the olde holy doctours of Chrystes chyrche, that the knowen catholyque chyrche is the very chyrche: the nomber of those authorytees wolde fyll an hole boke. But my purpose is here onely to answere Tyndale and confute his solucyon, wyth whych he falsely gloseth the wordes of saynte Austayne, that sayth he byleued not the scrypture yt self but for the authorite of the chyrch. Wherin I haue playnely proued you by saynt Austaynes owne wordes, Tyndales wordes shamfully false, as well in the pryncypall purpose, as in that he layeth falsely to the chyrche that the chyrche doth abuse the sayng of saynt Austayne. And therfore syth he sayth that they mysse construe and falsely alledge all the scrypture, euen in lyke maner wyse as they do saynte Austayne/ whyle ye playnely se that in this poynte whyche Tyndale putteth for the sample, the chyrche sayth trewe and hym selfe lyeth:. good cause haue you to byleue this lewde felow in the remanaunt lyke. But now shall ye se Tyndale deuyse you suche a shyft, that contrary to all his shyftes afore, he shall clerely confesse hym selfe that he both knoweth and byleueth the scrypture by the catholyke chyrch. For now commeth he to his fourth solucyon, wyth whyche he clene destroyeth all the tother thre that he made vs byfore. Lo thus he sayth. Tyndale. And when they aske whether we receyued the scrypture of them/ I answere that they whyche come after, receyue the scrypture of them that go byfore. And when they axe whether we byleue not that yt is goddes worde by the reason that they tell vs so/ I answere that there are two maner of faythes, an hystorycall fayth and a felynge fayth. More. Lo good reder here shall ye se that the thynge where a[Vi]bout he hath bombled all this whyle, that is to proue that he knoweth not the scrypture by the chyrche, and to proue that lie byleued yt not to be the scrypture of god, bycause the chyrche so tolde hym, perceyuynge at lengthe that all his answers were weke feble and faynte, and that none of them all wold stand/ he is dreuen at the last for very very shame to confesse some parte of the trouth, & yet for shame also to denye a nother parte. For by thys dystynccyon of these two faythes, hystorycall fayth and felynge fayth, he wyll in the ende tell vs that ones he knew the scrypture by the chyrche in byleuynge the chyrche/ but that was but an hystorycall fayth. How be yt he well saye that now he neyther knoweth it nor byleueth it by the chyrch, but by the inwarde inspyracyon and teachynge of god hym selfe. And where as his mayster and he many tymes mokke the doctours of the chyrch, for vsyng of trew dystynccyons in thynges where they be requysyte/ hym selfe hath here deuysed an euasyon by meane of a dystynccyon made by Melancthon/ in whyche destynccyon as in a myste he weneth to walke away. But I truste ye shall se the myste breke vp so fayre, that he shall not escape so. Lo thus goth he forth there wyth. Tyndale. The hystorycall fayth hangeth of the trewth and honestye of the teller, or of the commen fame and consente of many. As yf one tolde me that the Turke had wonne a cytye, and I byleued yt moued wyth the honestye of the man. Now yf there come a nother that semeth more honeste, or that hath better persuasyons that it is not so/ I thinke immediatly that he lyed and lose my fayth agayne. And a felynge fayth is, as yf a man were there present when yt was wonne, and there were wounded, and had there loste all that he had, and were taken presoner there also. That man shulde so byleue, thay all the worlde coulde not turne hym from his fayth. Euyn lykewyse yf my mother had blowen on her fynger and tolde me that the fyre wolde burne me / I shuld haue byleued her wyth an hystorycall fayth, as we byleue the storyes of the worlde, bycause I thought she wolde not haue mokked me. And so I shulde haue done/ if she had told me that the fyre had ben cold and wold not haue burned. But as sone as I had put my finger in the fyre I shulde haue beleued/ not by the reason of her, but wyth a felynge fayth/ so that she coulde noy haue persuaded me afterwarde the contrary. So now wyth an hystorycall fayth I may byleue that the scrypture is godds by the teachynge of them/ and so I shulde haue done though they had told that Robben hod had ben the scrypture of god. Whych fayth is but an opynyon, and therfore abydeth euer frute[Viv]lesse and fauleth awaye, yf a more gloryouse reason be made vnto me, or yf the preacher lyue contrarye. But of a felynge fayth yt is wryten Iohan.vi. They shall be all taughte of god. That is, god shall wryte yt in theyr hertes wyth his holy spyryte. And Paule also testyfyeth Roman.viii. the spyryte bereth recorde vnto oure spyryte, that we be the sonnes of god. And thys fayth is none opynyon, but a sure felynge/ and therfore euer frutefull. Neyther hangeth yt of the honestye of the preacher but of the power of god and of the spyryte. And therfore yf all the preachers of the world wolde go about to persuade the contrary, yt wold not preuayl/ no more then though they wolde make me byleue the fyre were colde/ after that I hadde put my fynger therin. Of this ye haue an ensample Iohan.iiii. of the Samaritanyshe wyfe, whych left her pytcher and went into the cytye and sayde/ come and se a man that hath tolde all that euer I dyd/ is he not Cryste? and many of the Samarytanes byleued bycause of the saynge of the woman, how that he had told her all that euer she dyd/ and went oute vnto hym and desyred hym to come in/ whych fayth was but an opynyon and no fayyh thay could haue lasted or haue brought out fruye/ but when they hadde herde Cryste, the spyryte wrought and made them fele. Wheruppon they came vnto the woman and sayde: we byleue not nowe bycause of thy saynge, buy bycause we haue harde oure selfes and knowe that he is Chryste the sauyour of the worlde. For Chrystys preachynge was wyth power and spyryte that maketh a man fele and knowe and worke to/ and not as the scrybes and pharysyes preached, and as oures make a man redy to cast his gorge to heare them raue and rage as madde men. And therfore sayyh the scrypture, cursed is he thay trusteth in man and maketh fleshe his arme/ that is to say, his strength. And euen so cursed is he that hath no nother bylyefe but bycause men so saye. Cursed were he that had no nother why to byleue then that I so say. And euen so cursed ys he that byleueth onely bycause the pope so sayth/ and so forthe thorow out all the men in the worlde. More. Lo good crysten reders, here haue I geuen you hys whole tale to gether, to the ende of his whole chapyter, whyche houerly loked on and edde ouer plesauntly with hym that lyketh hyt ere euer he loke on yt or fauoure of the secte, can not but seme very gay. But who so con- syder yt & aduyse yt well/ he shall fynde not one pyece of treuthe therin, farther then I haue all redy shewed you in the end of hys fyrste solucyon/ where I touched in few wordes scant spendynge foure lynys therin, that ye mynde of saynt Austayn was and is I wene of all good men besydes, that [Xi] when we byleue the chyrche eytller in knowynge whyche is the scrypture or in the trewe sense and ryghte vnderstandynge of the scrypture, god both preuenteth vs in geuyng vs the occasyon, and wurketh wyth vs and we wyth hym into the perfytynge of our consent and bylyefe/ as he doth towarde the per- fayt accomplysshement of euery thynge wherby we walke towarde our saluacyon/ towarde whyche we can no thynge do wythout hym, as hym selfe sayth, wythoute me nothynge can you do/ so that the inwarde secrete cause wurkynge wyth vs is hym selfe. But ordynaryly god vseth outwarde meanys and instrumentes, such as euery man may sumwhat by the same gyue a reason and cause of hys owne faythe to an other man, and therby tell hym that for the same causes the man to whome he telleth theym sholde of good reason folowe and byleue a lyke. And in these meanes lyke as god vseth the bodyly senses whyche we call the fyue wyttes, as wayes and meanes towarde that vnderstandynge whyche men attayne by reason, though there be somtyme bytwene the reason and the bodyly senses some debate and variaunce: so dothe he vse bothe the seruyse of the bodyly senses and of the reason of the soule towarde the seruyse of the fayth / addynge therwyth bycause it is a thynge farre aboue the nature of them bothe, hys owne supernaturall ayde and helpe of hys supernall grace to preuent vs wyth occasyons and mocyons of bylyefe, and walkynge on wyth vs excepte we leue of our selfe to the perfaytynge of bylyefe in our hartes, and helpynge vs to inclyne oure myndes into the credence o those outwarde causes and motyues, whyche wythout hys helpe in thynges ordeyned of god for the waye to heuyn warde, we sholde not haue done / nor of goddes ordynary course we sholde not haue byleued wythout some such outwarde sensyble causes neyther, as is prechynge and myracles and some suche other. And therfore as I before shewed you, saynte Austayne all be it that without helpe of god he byleued not the catholyke chyrche, nor wythout helpe of god knewe and byleued the scrypture by the catholyke chyrche/ yet he alledged vnto those heretykes the Mani- chays, not that inwarde cause the secrete helpe of god that wrought wyth hys wyll and hys reason, in geuynge credence to those out. warde causes [Xiv] for whyche he sayth that he byleued the chyrche/ for therin myghte the Manicheys fayne theym selfe hys matchys, & say that they were inspyred, and that they felte they inspyracyon in theyr hartes so felyngly, that therby they perceyue that Manicheus theyr archeretyke was the very apostle of Cryst, an that saynt Austayne eyther had no suche felynge or ellys a false felynge and was begyled. And therfore as I saye saynt Austayne layed them not that inwarde cause, but the outwarde causes of hys byleuynge th chyrche/ whyche were so good and effectuall, that the heretyke neyther coulde nor neuer can be able to brynge the lyke for them selfe. And then layeth he the same chyrch by those outwarde reasons so proued trewe, for the outwarde open cause of the knowlege and bylyefe of the very scrypture / and then doth the scrypture beynge by that outwarde cause, that is to wytte by the chyrche well perceyued and knowen for the word of god, bere wytnesse also & is an other outward cause of the more sure and perfayte knowlege, that the knowen catholyke chyrche is the very trewe chyrch of Cryst here in erth, & that all other are vtterly fayned & false, bothe by the manyfolde textes of the scrypture expressely declaryng it as saint Austayn sheweth, & also for that very reason sheweth that god gyuynge the gyfte of knowlege which is his trew scrypture to a chyrch, & vnto none but one or by that one, wolde neuer gyue that specyall goostely gyfte and prerogatyue vnto any false chyrche, and than byd the trew chyrche go lerne the trouth of the false. Now good chrysten readers thys waye went saynt Austayne wyth suche outwarde causes, as myghte of reason lede the reader wyth hym. But now cometh Tyndale and seynge that he can not auoyde the reason of saynt Austayn neyther wyth samples of saynte Iohan and the pharyseys whyche he broughte in dysguysed of dyuers fasshyons to make one answere seme twayne, nor wyth false glosynge of saynt Austaynes wordes wherin ye se Tyndale proued playne false: he cometh now and confesseth that same out warde cause of fayth vnto the scrypture/ grauntyng that hym selfe and euery man ellys knoweth it and byleueth it fyrst thorow the catholyke chyrch. But then flyetll he forth frome the fayth of the chyrche vnto hys felynge fayth, by which he now knoweth & byleueth ys scrypture as he sayth, [Xi] and no lenger by the chyrche. And therin he playeth by hys lynge fayth, as hys felowes do by theyr remembraunce. For yf any heretyke be taken and examyned vpon his oth of any maner thynge whych he wyll not confesse for hope that it can not be proued, nor dare well deny it for fere that it wylbe proued as whyther he sayd such a thynge or sawe suche a man/ he runneth strayt to hys remem- braunce, and sayth he sayd it not or saw hym not to hys remem- braunce, though it were in lesse then halfe an howre afore. For therin he seeth hym selfe saufe. For though the whole towne sawe them togyther and herde hym speke it/ yet whyche of all them can proue whyther he remember it styll or haue forgote it were it neuer so late? And so playeth Tyndale now, beynge fayne to graunte all that he hath denyed/ he flyeth lyke rede Raynarde the foxe for hys saufe- garde into his malepardus of his felyng fayth/ in whyche though he haue nothynge to proue it, yet the Raynarde trusteth to lye saufe, bycause he thynketh no man can fynde hym out. For who can folow hym thyder to make any tryall what maner fayth hym selfe feleth in hys owne harte? But yet good reders we shall so sette aboute hym, and then sette in suche terryers to hym, that we shall I truste eyther course hym abrode or make hym euyll reste within. For lette vs now resorte agayn vnto the gaye gloryous processe of Tyndalys holy dystynccyon. And where as in the begynnynge therof he calleth the hystorycall fayth a credence gyuen to a story tolde hym by men/ and that such fayth and credence hangeth vppon the trouth and honesty of the teller, or of the comen fame and consent of many/ as yf a man tell hym that the Turke hadde wonne a cytye, and that therfore yf there come an other that semeth more honeste, or that hath better persuasyons, than he thynketh immedyately that the fyrste man lyeth and so he loseth hys fayth agayne: If ye consyder well good chrysten readers ye shall fynde that parte of hys dystync, cyon, that is to wytte the tone halfe of all to gyther is suche a tale as tyll he proue it better, shall neuer serue hym here. For all be it that in worldely thynges thys tale be trew/ yet in maters of faythe, whyche faythe is the fyrste gate whereby we entre oure iournaye the ryghte waye toward god/ we canne neuer come at it wythout the helpe [X2v] of god/ nor how probable a tale so euer be tolde vs, neuer shall we byleue it wythout hys holy hande inwardly set on vs and ledyng vs therin to / whych is euer redy in all such thynges, both to preuent vs and to goo forth wyth the towardnesse of our owne wyll not frowardly resystynge but applyable vnto hys mocyon. And thys order to be trewe Cryste wytnesseth, where he sayth, No man can come to me but if my father draw hym. And saynt Poule, sayenge, we be not suffycyent of our self to thynke any good thynge as of our selfe. And therfore god as I sayde preuenteth vs in the begynnynge, & goeth forth wyth vs all the waye / wythout whom we coulde do nothynge by fayth towarde god, nor by the outwarde occasyon of fayth toward the inwarde consent therof, syth no man can as saynt Poule sayth, saye our lorde Iesus but in spyryte. And that god is euer redy, but yf we wyllyngly wythdraw/ hym selfe sheweth where he sayth, I stonde at the dore and knocke. And that god helpeth vs forward not without our own con- formable wyll, appereth playn by clere textes of scrypture I wene mo then an hundred. As where he sayth, wo be thou Capharnaum/ for yf in Tyrus & Sidon had ben wrought the myracles that haue bene wroughte in the, they wolde longe a goo haue done penaunce in asshes and shyrtes of Nere. And also where he sayd vnto Hierusalem in this wyse: Hieru- salem Hierusalem how often wold I haue gathered thy children to- her, as the henne gathereth togyther her chykens/ & thou woldest not. And where he byddeth saynte Thomas of Inde, wyll not thou be vnbyleuynge but Byleuynge. And where he blameth hys dyscyples for not byleuynge those that had seen hym rysen from deth agayne. And therfore is it in my mynde false that Tyndale sayth, that the hystorycall fayth, that is to saye the fayth acquysyte and gotten by gyuynge credence to the reporte and tellynge, dothe in the thynges of the chrysten fayth depende vppon the trouth and honesty of menne, or comen fame alone. For all be it that suche thynges be the outwarde occasyons, by meane wherof a man cometh therto: yet is there euer more in euery such fayth the inwarde cause mouynge our wyll towarde the consent therof, the specyall ayde and helpe of the great goodnesse of god, wythout whyche oure wyll had neuer walked towarde it. [Xi] And lykewyse as not the mannys tale at oure eare with oute god workynge wythin, bryngeth vs into the bylyefe, (For as saynt Austayn sayth, In vayne sowneth at ye eare the word but yf god worke in the herte) euen so not ye mannis tale alone kepeth ys faith in vs, but as an outward mocyon yt kepeth as it brought/ but pryn- cypally kepeth vs therin he that pryncypally brought vs therto, that is the inward workynge of goddes owne holy spyryte. And thus ye se that this pyece of Tindales tale is but a bare broken patche. Nowe the tother parte, wherein he sayeth that yf there come a more honeste man, or one that hath better persuasyons to the contrary/ that then he that had the faith vppon the fyrste mannys tellynge, loseth yt agayne vpon the seconde man tellynge the contrary: I say ys this patche is double noughte. For syth as I sayd byfore he came to the fayth by two mocyons/ the pryncypall god workynge wythin, and the secondary the occasyons outwardely geuyn also by god: lyke as the good wyll workynge wyth god assented vnto yt, so shall neuer any mannys tale, nor the tale of a thousande agaynste one, ouer- mayster that inwarde mocyon of god, as long as the wyll of the man will contynue styll with god in cleuynge to the fayth, as yt dyd in folowynge hym in the commynge to yt. And therefore some ma that hath vppon ryghte small occasyon turned to the fayth, an therfore wyth the myche more meryte, as Cryste sayde, Blessed be they that haue byleued and haue not seen: could neuer wyth any maner occas. yon be pulled from yt agayne, bycause of theyr good wyll stykkyn styll to the inwarde cause of theyr fayth. For yf a man may as in dede he may, so obstynately set his wyll vnto the worse syde, that no persuasyon of good reason can remoue hym to the better: how mych it is more trew, that when a man hath coupled his wyll wyth god, by inclynynge & cleuynge vnto grace, there can none euyll persuasyon of counterfeted reason be able to plukke hym from yt/ tyll the frowardnesse of his wyll do wyllyngly fall therfro, as the towardnes of his wyll dyd wyllyngly cleue therto/ and as yt agayne maye when yt is fallen from yt, wyth helpe of grace wyllyngly returne therto. Now yf Tyndale call this a felyng fayth: yet were his dystinccyo then clene vaynyshed and gone. For then were euery historycal fayth in maters in the fayth a felyng faith [Xiv] also. And therby were then all his solucyon confounded. But this peyce is also nought for a nother thynge. For in this patche he supposeth that for ys fayth of Cryste there coulde not be gyuen so good an outwarde cause, but that some better myght be made agaynst yt, or at the leste some suche as myght appere the better. But I say that except obstynacy & frowardnes be in the mynde of hym to whom yt shall so seme/ yt is ellys a thynge im- possyble, that euer there shall be layed so great outewarde thynges agaynste the fayth of Cryst, as shall be layed for yt. But the reasons all redy rnade, and the thynges all redy shewed for ys fayth are suche, as euery resonable man standynge but indyfferent and voyd of obstinate frowardnesse, yf the mater were but the trouth of a story and not the meane of mannis saluacyon, might well descerne all that may be made agaynst yt to be farre the weker parte. And now beynge this mater the meane of mannys saluacyon, towarde the blyef wherof god worketh/ Tyndales tale is myche the febler. For ellys geue we them a great excuse that lest not to byleue the trouthe. But oure lorde sayth vnto the prechers of hys fayth, whome he sent to preache to all the worlde, that he wolde geue theym a moutli and wysedome therin, that no man shold be able to resyste the reasons wyth whych they shold conferme yt. In whych wordes our lord ment not, ys euery man wolde for all those reasons of prophecyes myracles martyrs and many other thynges bysydes, consente and agree to byleue/ but that all be yt of obstynacy they wolde not, yet to theym that were indyfferent, yt sholde well appeare that they coulde neuer be able suffycyently to answere them, but that they myghte euer by playne outwarde proues be substancyally confounded/ and the trew byleuer able alway to declare to the false and faythlesse an outward cause suffycyent of his fayth and hope, whyche the tother myghte fro- wardly saye he wolde not/ but reasonably could he neuer say why he shold not beleue and geue credence vnto. And thus ys lo the fyrste parte of Tyndales dystynccyon destroyed. Now is the seconde parte, his felyng fayth, whych is he sayth that bylyefe and fayth, not that a man hath goten and conceyued in hys harte by herynge of other men, but by ys playne experyence of his owne felynge. And wyth this [Xi] felyng fayth byleueth he ys batayle that hath not herd other men talke therof & told yt hym/ but hath hym self both ben present therat, and also ben wounded therin. Nor no man byleueth wyth the felyng fayth that the fyre is hote, tyll he haue at the leste wyse burned his fynger in yt. For all ys but hystorycall fayth byfore. Nowe good cristen reders, by this tale Tyndale telleth vs that all the credence whyche he gaue vnto the chyrche, in takynge the bokes of the foure euangelystes for the very gospelles of Cryste, was all to gether but lyke Tyndales mothers blowynge vppon her fynger/ and therby makynge that prety babe her sonne byleue that the fyre was hote and hadde burned her/ and that he wolde haue byleued her no lesse, yf she hadde tolde hym the same by a cuppe of colde water. And that in lyke wyse as he byleued the chyrche that the gospelles were holy scrypture, so shold he haue byleued theym yf they hadde tolde hym that a tale of Robben hode hadde ben holy scrypture. For syth all was but an hystorycall fayth, all muste nedes haue ben one. Consyder by the way good reder the dyfference betwene saynt Austayne and the good man Tyndale, in theyr credence geuen vnto the chyrche. Saynte Austayne byleued the chyrche in teachynge hym whych was the trewe scrypture, bycause he perceyued well the same chyrch to be so declared by miracles & many other menes to be ye trew chirch, that therby he byleued that the doctryne therof coulde not be false, and that therfore yt coulde not teache a tale of robbyn hode to be the gospell of Cryste. Now Tyndale as ye se taketh the credence of the whole catholyke chyrch the moder of euery mannys cristendome, lyke his owne moder blowynge vpon her fynger, and therby makynge the babye byleue what she lyste. And therfore in this poynt wherin saynte Austayne and the good man Tyndale tell you two so dyuerse tales/ consyder well with your self the wysedom, the lernynge, the maners, & the vertue, of those two men/ and then of them both loke whome ye fynde beste, and by myne aduyse euen hym byleue beste. But now doth Tyndale he sayth byleue the trouth, that not a tale of Robben hode but the bokes of the foure euangelystes be the trew gospell of Chryste, bycause oure lorde hath hem self so taught it hym, and so shewed yt hym now, that all that he hath herde therof byfore by the teachyng of [Xiv] the catholyque chyrche, moueth hym nothynge at all/ for now he hath an inwarde profe and experyence therof, and fully and sensybly feleth yt, as he feleth the fyre hote by the burnynge of his fynger. And as he feleth yt thus in hym selfe/ so he perceyueth yt is with all ys other electes the members of his trew chyrch and tllat therfore of all them there is none that knowe the scrypture by the catholyke chyrche, but by theyr owne sure secrete felynge, suche as they fele whicn they burne theyre fyngers. This is the tale ye wote well that Tyndale telleth vs. But now is yt perde good reason that Tyndale tell vs also, by what meane he proueth yt/ or ellys at the leste wyse that he tell vs some cause resonable wherfore we sholde in so straunge a mater byleue hys bare worde. For surely though that in any such thynge as he wyll saye that he feleth hym selfe in his owne breste, and theruppon take hys othe vppon hys honesty that he feleth yt in dede/ reason requyreth for lakke of other tryall, that we byleue his owne worde/ consyderynge that we may be ledde to byleue hym by the long experience of the contynuall lyeng that we haue euer therfore founden in him, yet that the lyke felyng is also in all his felowes hartes how feleth he? And therfore howe can he desyre that we sholde therin byleue hym wythoute profe? namely syth we se that hys owne hyghe spyrytuall mayster, mayster Martyne Luther hym selfe, for all hys hygh fleshely vertues, layetll not in that mater such feling for his owne fayth, but well lyketh and mych alloweth the hystorycall fayth of saynte Austayne/ and playnely confesseth hym selfe that the chyrche that saynte Austayne spake of, that is to wyt the knowen catllolyke chyrch, hath that gyft gyuen of god, that yt shall perfytely dyscerne the wordes of god from the wordes of men/ and therfore shall neuer take and teache a tale of Robben hode for the trew scripture of god. Now therfore as I say, Tyndale muste proue vs this felynge fayth/ at the lest wyse for the fayth of his felowes/ or ellys shall he make vs fele that for a shyfye to scape away wyth, he hath sought sore and found out for the artycles of his heresyes, not any trew felynge fayth, but a false fumblynge fantasye. Yet wolde Tyndale seme to proue his felynge fayth by [Aai] scrypture/ and therfore he sayth, Of the felynge fayyh yt is wryyen Iohan.vi. They shall be all taughte of god. That is, god shall wryte yt in theyr hertes wyth hys holy spyryye. And paule also testyfyeth Roman.viii. the spyryte bereth recorde vnyo oure spyryte, that we be the sonnes of god. And thys fayth is none opynyon, but a sure felynge/ and yherfore euer frute- full. Neyther hangeth yt of the honesty of the preacher but of the power of god and of the spyryte. And therfore yf all the preachers of the worlde wolde go about to persuade the contrary, yt wold not preuayl/ no more then though they wolde make me byleue that the fyre were cold/ after that I had put my fynger therin. Now good chrysten readers here haue ye fyrste herde the wordes of god, wyth whych Tyndale wold make vs wene that he proueth vs hys felynge fayth of all hys heresyes / & after haue ye herde the wordes of hym selfe declarynge the effecte of the same, in hym self so depe and so surely wryten in hys herte, that all the prechours in the worlde can not now scrape it out, no more then make hym byleue that the fyre were colde in whyche he had burned hys fynger. Fyrste ye maye sone se that the scryptures proue of hys purpose not one peyce. For well ye wote your questyon is not, whyther god wyth hys inwarde wurkynge wryte in mannys harte the fayth whyche I haue at length all redy shewed you that he doth, and haue also shewed you what is ment therby, that is to wytte hys wurkynge wyth the towardenesse of mannys wyll, in ledynge hym in to the consent of bylyefe/ whyche ledynge is the techynge wherof Crist speketh in the wordes which Tindale here alledgeth the wordes of our sauiour, rehersyng the sayeng of the prophete Esay, They shalbe all taught of god/ whych wordes by the prophete were spoken of our sauyour & the new law that he sholde brynge, and of the great dyfference bytwene Moyses that taught the olde, & Cryst that shold come and tech the secunde. For in the fyrst, though it were receyued of god, was yet delyuered them & taught them by Moyses that was but a man/ & they lerned but of theyr neyghbour, that is to wyt of man of whych euery one is neyghbour to other by kynde. But in the new law the worlde receyued & learned of Cryste, whyche was not our neyghbour onely, ys is to wyt very man. But also the maker of euery mannes neighbour, & him self also very eternal god, & ys same techer though he taught before & was ys same god ys before taught by Moyses the synagoge of the chyldren of Israell, and [Aaiv] gaue theym by Moyses a lawe after come to gather hys chrysten chyrch, and teche in hys owne person/ he wolde hys owne mouth gyue hys chyrche a lawe wythout booke, and sllede out hys grace so merue- louse and os plentuouse vppon the people that thorough the myracles & the doc- tryne, dede stony hartes sholde waxe tender, softe, & quycke, and wyth wyllyng and applyable myndes, shold by the spyryte of god haue the lawe, that is the trewe bylyefe, good hope, and well wurkynge cheryte, gracyously wryten in them. And thus sholde it haue bene, and by the same spyryte sholde it euer haue contynued in the catho- lyke chyrche, all though neuer worde of the new testament had ben wryten. And yet in the same maner remayneth wryten in the same chyrche by the same spyryte, a ryghte rule lefte by god, techynge the chyrche to enterprete and vnderstand the wrytynge that hys holy apostles haue wryten after, & hys holy prophetes haue also wryten before. And thys wrytynge from tyme to tyme in the hartes of hys chyrch is the writyng that Cryst so often promised vnto his chyrch/ thay is to wytthat he wolde sende the holy gooste to teche it allthynge, and to lede it into all trouth, & be wyth it hym selfe all dayes also euyn vnto the worldes ende. Now what chyrch this is there nedetll no man to dowt, when we dowte not whych chyrche it is that hath by god that gyfte to knowe by bylyef which is the trew scrypture/ whyche is as me semeth one greate artycle of the fayth. That chyrche that hath the gyfte of that artycle, vpon whyche by the doctryne of all these heretykes them self, the credence of all the other artycles depende/ and none other chyrche hath it but by it/ that chyrche I saye may soone be perceyued, and ougllt to be by- leued to be the very chyrche. Now what thys techyng is, that is ment by our sauyour in the wordes that Tyndale alledgeth, ye se. And therfore as I sayed, now consyder that the purpose of Tyndale is not to teche vs that god techeth hys electes the fayth, but to teche and proue vs by the textes that he bryngeth forth, that god techeth not onely the trewe fayth but also the felynge fayth, of suche a maner felynge as hym selfe hath declared, by beynge wounded in the batayle, and burnynge hys fynger in the fyre/ so ys he can neuer after at any tyme byleue the contrary, no nor neuer after do any dedely synne. [Aai] And now ye se perde clerely, that in those wordes of Cryste rehersynge the prophecy, They shall be all taught of god: here is neuer one worde of any suche maner felynge/ and therfore doth that texte nothynge proue for hys purpose of hys felynge fayth. Besydes thys, ye wote well that Tyndale putteth thys felynge fayth to be the fayth of all electes/ and than hym selfe denyeth not but that there were electes in euery tyme from Adam vnto Cryste. And thys prophecy that he nowe bryngeth in for hys purpose, was as hym selfe knoweth, spoken of the chyrch of Cryste that shold be after hys own comynge. And how can he than for shame saye, that it was spoken of the felynpe fayth of all electes, when they were onely spoken to declare the maner of excellence bytwene the new lawe and the olde? But suche is Tyndals iuglyng to make euery thynge of euery thynge. Let vs now go than to the wordes of saynt Poule in the.viii. chapyter of his pystle to the Romayns, where he sayth the spyryte bereth wytnesse to our spyryte, that we be the sonnes of god. These wordes good chrysten reder whyche Tyndale here allegeth for hym, not onely make nothynge for hym/ but ouer that yf we consyder them well wyth some wordes before and after, they make so clere agaynste hym, that a man coulde not wysshe for a place more effectuall to turne ouer vtterly & destroye clerely Tyndals hole gostely purpose. For lo good reder saynt Poule after that he hadde in the.vii. chapyter of that pystle, touched the great goodnes of god, that had by the deth of our sauyour Cryste delyuered in the baptysme all the worlde that wolde be good chrysten people, from all the gylte & dampnacyon dewe for all maner synne/ & lefte vs in such case that all the relykes & leuynges of orygynall synne, albeit they be mocyons & inclynacions of ys flesh towarde synne, & therby called synne, for the lacke of that perfeccion whych the body shold haue had, yf Adam had not by synne fallen for hym self & all his posteryte from the state of orygynall iustyce / & sha11 haue when ye body shall aryse agayn, & be gloryfyed: yet be they not lmputed vnto vs/ but perdoned & remayne as mater of our meryte, in case ys we resyst those inclynacyons of ys flesh, & folowe the mocyons of the scrypture. After thys I saye touched in the.vii. chapyter, then pur- sueth he styll vpon the [Aaiv] same in the eyghte chapyter/ de- clarynge the excellence of grace that god hath powred on vpon his people in ys newe law, farre aboue the grace whyche he gaue yet abundauntely in the olde/ but in the newe farre passynge, in that he vouchsaufed hym selfe to come in to the worlde in his own persone, in the very nature of man and symylytude of a synner, and suf- ferynge here hys paynefull passyon, therby to dampne & destroye the Synne that the deuyll caused Adam to commytte agaynst god/ to dampne it I saye and destroye it, by the synne that the deuyll caused the iewes to commyt in puttynge our sauyour vniustely to deth. And all be it that in the olde lawe, suche as were good men receyued theyr grace by the fayth and bylyefe of oure sauyour that after sholde come, and were by vertue therof made able to resyste the relyques of orygynall synne and inclynacyons of the flesshe towarde actuall synnes, & ther by were after Crystes passyon saued: yet was that ayde & helpe of grace by Crystes owne comynge, when by the passyon of hys flesshe he dampned the synne in the flesshe, so farre encreaced aboue that it was in ye chyldren of Israell before, whose flesshely sacryfyces were to feble of them self to iustyfye, that suche as are baptysed and receyue the spyryte of god, may yf they wyll farre more easyly folowe the spyryte and resyste the flesshely mocyons, and abyde and perseuer the quycke lyuely membres of Crystes mystycall body, then myghte of olde tyme before Crystes comynge, the chyldren of the synagoge. And syth our lorde hath now done so myche for vs, as in suche haboundaunce by hys owne comyng, to gyue out hys grace vnto vs, and destroy all his felynge fayth, whyche he feleth that beynge ones one of the sonnes of god, he can neuer fall therfore, nor neuer synne dedely after. For here as ye se saynte Poule geuyng good warnynge of deth and dampnacyon when they do/ playnely sheweth that the may. And thus is there also by saynte Poule openly confounded an dampned, all that whole pestylent boke, in whych wyllyam Tyndal wyth his false construccyon corrupteth the fyrste pystle of saynt Iohan/ labourynge to make men wene that who so were onys a good crysten man, coulde neuer after be noughte, though he neuer So myche do noughte, bycause he can not do yt sayth Tyndale of urpose but of fraylty / and ys who so afte ls crystendome do purposely commytt any cryme, neuer was good byfore nor neuer shal wax good after, nor neuer be after forgeuen but vtterly dampned remedylesse. Whyche false exposycyon yf yt were trew/ then had saynte Poule here wryte many wordes vntrew, and geuen many [Aai] monycyons i vayne/ and had also done in a nother place a thyng of lytle effect, in restoryng the Corinthyane agayn vnto th chyrche, whyche had abomynable mysse vsed his fathers wyfe. Whose restytucyon wherof shold yt serue, yf after his restytucyon to the chyrche after his preat penauns done, he sholde for all that when he dyed go strayte vnto the deuyll? Now that ye se these two textes of scrypture whyche he brynget for hym, do nothynge make for hym in dede/ and the later of th twayne clerely make agaynste hym, beynge translated after the olde latyn translacyon, whyche he foloweth in those wordes/ and yet myche more agaynst hym yf yt were translated after the greke, whyche in other places he foloweth, and in this purposely flyttet fro, to frame the wordes the more towarde his purpose: lette vs now consyder the thyrde place of scrypture that he bryngeth to vs of the woman of Samarye, whome many men of the cytye byleued, for that she tolde theym that Chryste had tolde her all that she hadde done / and ther uppon they went out vnto Cryste, aiid desyred hym to come in. But this fayth he sayth that those men hadde, was but an opynyo and no fayth, that coulde haue lasted or haue brought oute frute. Now ere we go any farther, how proueth Tyndale this peyce of his purpose, that this fayth in those men was but a bare opynyon/ and So faynte that yt coulde not haue lasted nor haue broughte oute frute? How proueth Tyndale thys? what one word hath he toward the profe? any more then only sayth so? And why may not we then say agayne the contrary? agaynst hym that nothyng sayth, why may we not say that vppon the womans wordes, our sauyoure hym selfe standynge yet wythout the cytye in his manhed was wythin the cytye both wyth her and theym in his god hed, and wrought wyth theyr towarde wyllys in the mennys hartes, the bylyef that they vppon the womans wordes conceyued/ whych was so stronge and so frute- full, that forthwith they came ioyfully forth vnto hym, and inuyted hym into the cytye? Whych doynge of theyrs I wold wene were frutefull and merytoryous, when I se well in the gospell that other which wold not receyue his dyscyples, were thretened of his owne moutll that they sholde at the daye of iudgement stande in more harde case, then the synfull [Aaiv] Sod omytes and cytezyns of Gommer both. Ye sayth Tyndale but yet was it but hystorycall fayth. For felynge fayth coulde yt not be, tyll they spake wyth Cryste hym selfe. For then the spyryt wrought sayth Tyndale, and made them fele. Wheruppon they came vnto the woman and sayde, we byleue not now bycause of thy sayeng/ but bycause we haue herde our selfes and know that he is Cryste the sauyour of the worlde. What proueth Tyndale now wyth all this? any more, then that theyr fayth was augmented and encreaced after theyr communica- cyon had wyth our sauyour hym self? But what is this for his purpose, doth this profe ys theyr fayth was byfore but a bare opinion, and ys it neyther could haue contynued nor haue brought forth frute? Bycause yt was after encreased and made more frutefull, was yt byfore no fayth at all therfore but a bare fruteles opynyon? Must yt nedes folowe that theyr fayth was chaunged in kynde, bycause yt was augmented in degrees? The apostles thoughte as yt semeth otherwyse, when they prayed oure lorde not to chaunge theyr fayth but to encreace yt. Also in the selfe same gospell of the Samarytanys, the playne texte sayth, Many of the Samarytanis byleued in hym for the wordes of the woman. But Tyndale sayth nay/ and sayth yt was no bylyef that they hadde but onely an opynyon, where the gospell by playne wordes sayeth they byleued/ & him self sheweth nothyng why he shold say otherwyse, but onely that theyr bylyef was after by the communycacyon hadde wyth Chryste more stronge and more fastely confermed. And yet fyndeth he no word that none of them coulde fall from yt after. And therfore these wordis of the gospell reproue ye tone part of his tale, that theyr bylyef was no fayth but an opynyon/ & no wordes proue the tother parte of his tale wher in standeth all to gether, that is to saye that those men of Samarye hadde any suche felynge fayth as Tyndale descrybed vs and telleth vs this tale fore/ that is to say, such a felynge fayth that could neuer after fayle, lyke the fayth of hete in hym that hath burned his fynger. For where fyndeth he in that gospell or any other, that all those men perseuered euer after in the fayth/ and not onely were euer after faithfull byleuers, but also good vertuouse lyuers, and neuer dyd dedely synne but were all fynally saued? [Bbi] Thys muste Tyndale shewe vs yf he brynge an ensample of hys felynge fayth that he techeth vs. And yet muste he proue vs ferther that they felyngly and faythfullye byleued his false heresyes also. For ellys hadde they not his felynge fayth. Now yf he thynke he proue vs thys suffyciently, by the reason that those men were turned and waxen faythfull at the prechyng of our sauyour hym selfe in his owne person, <2whyche preched>2 sayth Tyndale <2not as the scrybes and pharyseys dyd, nor as ours do, that make a man redy to>2 <2caste hys gorge to here them raue and rage lyke mad men/ but he preched wyth>2 <2power and spyryte, that maketh menfele and know and wurke to.>2 If Tyndale I say loke by thys to proue that they had such a felynge fayththat neuer coldde fayle, bycause the prechynge of Cryste was with power and spyryte: then goeth he farre wronge, & ouerturneth hys pryncypall purpose of all. For well he woteth that Cryste promysed and sent the same spyryte to hys chyrch, to teche it & lede it into all trewth, and hym selfe also to dwell therin for euer. And that the knowen catholyke chyrche is it that onely hath the same spyryte, appereth clerely by thys that onely the knowen catholike chyrch hath in it declared and contynued the power. For none other chyrche of Chryste is there in whyche the myracles contynue. And therfore yf there were any such felyng fayth in any chyrche/ then must it be in thys chyrche / & then were thys chyrche the chyrche of Tyndals electes, and then were ther wythall hys whole purpose loste. Now yf he wyll not in any wyse agree, that any papystes may be electes and haue the felynge fayth, nor any man at theyr prechynge bycause they do but raue & rage/ but the menne of Samary were electes & must nedes haue the felyng fayth for this onely cause, that is to wyt bycause our lord preched to them hym selfe/ so that ellys they could not at the prechynge of any other: then let it lyke hym to remember, that Cryste preched to many men his owne mouth of whyche there were some that thorow theyr frowarde wyll byleued neuer a whyt/ as for ensample the scrybes and pharyseys. And some byleued at the fyrst full well, & afterward yet fell away/ as dyd almost all the mayny of his discyples when he tolde them ofhys body and bloude, that sholde be both mete & drynke/ went they not from hym than as Tyndale hath done synnys for ye self same cause bycause he wyll none other byleue, but that it is onely cake brede & wyne? [Bbiv] And hadde not Iudas Iscaryoth herd our lorde as often prech and as longe, as dyd those men of Samary, ye and byleued as well to somtyme/ and yet fell after to noughte as Tyndale is fallen now? Nay sayth Tyndale Iudas neuer byleued. How proueth Tyndale syth Cryste toke hym and made hym hys apost1e and sente hym forth to prech/ and forther as some good commentours expowne these verses, sayth of hym, hym selfe: If myne enemye had cursed me I myght haue sus- teyned & borne it. And also yf he that hated me had spoken hyghe wordes to me, I wolde perauenture haue hydde me from hym. But thou man of one mynde wyth me my guyde and myne acquayntaunce, that dydest eate with me swete mete, we walked togyther in the howse of god with one agreable mynd. Here sayth our sauyour of hym, not onely that he was his acquayntaunce & famylyare, and that they pleasauntely dyd eate to gyther/ but also that they were of one mynde onys, & walked in the howse of god wyth good consent togyther, had Cryste ben of one mynde & consent with Iudas at any tyme, yf Iudas had at no tyme bene of the ryght bylyefe? well wyll Tyndale say, but yet hadde he but an hystorycall fayth & not the felyng fayth. Now where is then become ys profe of Tyndals tale, ys the men of Samary muste nedes haue the felyng fayth, bycause they spake with Cryste, and coulde not haue so for all the womans wordes, tyll they spake wyth Cryst/ yf Cryst spake wyth Iudas mych more then wyth them/ & yet had Iudas but eyther hystorycall fayth or els no fayth at all, or finally his felynge fayth fayled & fell awaye/ wherupon it foloweth that there fayleth & falleth away Tyndals hole tale wythall. For how proueth he now that theyr bylyefe was a felynge fayth, that neuer coulde fayle nor fall? And thus ye se good reders how wysely Tyndale proueth hys dystynccyon of hystorycall fayth and felyng fayth, by the sample of the Samarytanys/ by whych he proueth as ye se, neyther one thynge nor other. And fynally yf we graunte hym that all was there trew that he sayth/ that is to wytte that the men had the felynge fayth bycause they spake wyth Cryst mouth to mouth, and that excepte hyS personall prechyng, theyr fayth had bene but an opynyon faynt feble and frutelesse: then were Tyn[Bbi]dale yet brought vnto the wurste poynte of all. For then must it nedes folow theron, that ney- ther Luther, nor Tyndale, nor Huyskyn, nor Suinglius, can bynd vs to byleue that they haue the felynge fayth, tyll they brynge vs forth good profe that they haue spoken, not wyth other ys preche them Crystes wordes, but as the menne of Samary dyd, euyn face to face wyth Crystes owne person present. Now se ye well good chrysten reders, that of all hys conclusyon of hystorycall fayth and felyng fayth, wheruppon fynally dependeth all hys purpose: to wynd away wythall and shyfte hym selfe asyde, he proueth vs neuer a pyece. And yet as though there muste nedes be such a felynge fayth as he descrybeth/ he procedeth forth and sayth. The scrypture sayth, cursed is he that trusteth in man and makeyh fleshe his arme/ that is to say, his strength. And euen so cursed is he that hath none nother bylyefe but bycause men so saye. Cursed were he that had no nother why to byleue then that I so saye. And euen so cursed ys he thay byleueth onely bycause the pope so sayth/ and so forthe thorow out all the men in the worlde. More. Ye se good reders that these wordes waye, to proue that of neces- syte there muste be suche a felynge fayth as he assygneth. For ellys maketh Tyndale as though no man coulde haue any other cause of hys fayth, but the trust that he putteth in the man that telleth hym so/ and that saith he is a thynge accursed in the scrypture. A lytell afore Tyndale alledged saynt Austayne in beleuynge the gospell for the chyrche / & now lo he calleth hym accursed for puttynge of men in so mych truste. But I suppose the scrypture speketh of these prowde worldly folke, that wene them selfe saufe inough by worldly strength, and able to conquere & wynne vp the world with multytude of men/ of whom the scrypture sayth that they put trust of vyctory, some in horse & some in charyotes. These kynde of people do make flessh theyr arme / & not euery man ys byleueth an other in tellynge of a tale. For they byleue not with theyr arme perde / but as they walke with theyr handes bycause they cast them not of But Tyndale that dysdayneth to byleue the chyrche, he is by goddes owne mouth accursed out of the chyrclle. For who so (sayth our sauyour) wyll not here the chyrche take hym for a publycan and a very paynym. [Bbiv] But now good chrysten readers I haue declared you before, that saynt Austayne in byleuynge the scrypture bycause of the authoryte of the chyrche, and all we that do the lyke/ do not therby put our truste in man but in god, that by hys inwarde spyryte and outwarde myracles, enclyneth vs to byleue hys chyrche therin/ and yet by the same scrypture also confermeth the same bylyefe by hys great promyses therin conteyned and made vnto the same chyrche/ and of whyche we se dayly some performed in the same, and the re- manaunt therby the more fastely confermed and byleued of the same. And therfore in byleuynge the chyrche, we put not I saye our trust in the men whom we byleue/ but we put our truste in god, for whome and by whom we byleue the men. And yet foloweth it nothyng the rather, that there shold be any suche felynge fayth as Tyndale onely talketh of & no pyece proueth of For there maye be and in dede is, a ferme and faste bylyefe wythout any other felynge then byleuynge onely, for as farre as concerneth onely fayth. And the fayth of a ryght good man and a very electe, maye be full faste at one tyme, and at an other full feble, ye and fall awaye/ and yet by grace and good wyll, come to the man agayne. And therfore is all thys chapyter of hys felynge fayth, bryngynge no profe for hys purpose, vtterly spent aboute nought. And vnto as lytell purpose he spendeth an other peuysshe chapyter after/ in whyche bycause he wolde yet fayne haue it seme necessary, that there sholde be suche a felyng fayth, he telleth vs a longe tale that the fayth which dependeth vppon an other mannes mouth is weke. And surely sauynge that in that chapyter he brawleth bygly, and scoldeth strongely, & rayleth ryally, & lyeth puissauntly/ ellys is all hys mater besyde meruelouse feble and weke. Thys chapyter he spendeth all vppon rybawdouse raylynge, so shamefull and abomynable that I wene for very shame and offend- ynge of honeste mennes eares, it were better burne it then reherse it. How be it lest some men myght happe to saye that I mysse reporte hym, and wolde make menne wene that he were so bestely as to wryte such fylthy raylynge lyes, as honeste eares myghte not well endure to here: I shall of necessyte though I be loth therto, be fayne to reherse you for a sample some parte of hys bestely kna[Bbi]uery. thus he begynneth his chapyter. Tyndale. lf I haue none other felynge then bycause a man so sayth, then is my fayth faythlesse. For yf I haue none other felyng that lechery is synne, then that the pope so preacheth, whome I se before my face set vppe in Rome a stewes of.xx. or.xxx. thousande houres, takynge of euery one trybute yerely / and his byshoppes wyth all other dyscyples folowyng thensample myghtyly/ and the pope therwyth not content, but set vppe a stewes of boyes also agaynste nature. More. Fye no ferther here is to mych all redy. What honest eare can endure suche a bestely processe, so full of abomynable fylthy lyes/ wherof theffecte and conclusyon is, that syth the pope and all the whole clergye be suche in euery kynde of abomynacyon, as this abomynable beste abomynably belyeth theym / the fayth were faythlesse and frutelesse by whyche a man by theyr preachynge byleued that any vyce were synne? But fyrste he forgeteth yet agayne the poynt/ & to seke occasyon of raylynge, he tourneth the questyon from the whole catholyke chyrche to the clergy alone, and somtyme to the pope alone. Bysydes this, all be yt great synne yt is for any vycyouse person to take vppon hym thoffyce of a preacher, and to presume to tell other folke theyr fautes byfore he mende his owne, for as mych as mych of his audience may take occasyon of his euyll lyuyng to haue the trouth in contempte: yet maye they that rather lyste to take good then harme, fynd therin a great occasyon the more strongly to conferme them in the trewth. For yf a lechour dysprayse lechery and comende chastyte/ or the proude preache agaynste pryde & prayse humylytie / or the couetouse wreche rebuke auaryce and laude lyberalyte/ the gloton dyscomende glotony and exhorte all men to abstynence, and so forthe in suche other lyke: though these wordes seme vnsyttynge in suche mennys mouthes, yet maye he that lysteth well to consydre therin the great strength of trouth and of vertue, whyche expresseth his owne prayse oute of the mouth of his enmy, and hym that taketh shame thereby, and holdeth a torche lyght and bryght burnynge in his owne hande to lette the people the better beholde his fautes, and the more to wonder on hym selfe in honour of the trouth. [Bbiv] Wold god yet that Luther the lechour wold onys grow to ys same faute, and blame hym selfe, and such other as be freres and wedde nunnes. I wolde wene yt myght do good both to some other and hym selfe to. For therby shold men se the thynge to be very nought, when euen he that doth it can not but dysprayse yt/ and hym selfe shold at the worst way haue but one faute for twayne. For now is he bothe a lechour and an heretyke to/ and then sholde be but the tone/ and yet myght therby grow to farther grace, and afier be neyther nother. How be yt in the clergy as there be bad/ so be there also god be thanked good, and men of such excellent vertue, that these heretykes hertes euen frete for enuye to se theym. And syth they can in no wyse saye naye there to/ they blaspheme all holy lyuynge. And therfore he that lyste to lerne of good men when Tyndale hath all belyed theym/ yet in the catholyke chyrch he may fynd them. Fynally to proue you that Tindale doth in this raylyng but proue hym selfe a fole: ye wote well that our mater is not of the lyuynge but of the doctryne. And then can not hym selfe say nay, but that the poyntes wherin hym self and the catholyque chyrche varye, we agre/ and he varyeth from all the old holy doctours synnys thapostles tyme to his own/ in whose holy lyuyng he neyther doth nor can fynde defaute. And yf he saye that hym selfe agreeth wyth theym, and not we: let hym yet agayne fynde of theym all some one, that euer helde yt lawfull for a frere to wedde a nunne. And then as for the doctryne of the catholike chyrch (for of the doctryne is our mater) the trouth of that is so great and of such vygour and strength, that those whych are in the ryght faythe therof and abydynge therin, do preache and say the trouth, and call the synne synne, be the preacher neuer so synfull hym selfe/ all though his knowen syn ioyned vnto his preachynge, shulde neuer so sore turne to his owne shame. For neuer was there wyth vs so great a lechour, that euer wolde preache that lechery was no syn. But this is the prechyng of frere Luther, frere Huyskyn, frere Lambert, and Swynglius, and of this blessed apostle of these apostatas wyllyam Tyndale. Whych as they be of all abominable wreches the most shamefull/ so are of all abomynable bestes ys most shamelesse, auowyng the breclle of theyr vowys and theyr lechery wyth nunnys, mete for [Bbi] men of honestye, and for good monye. Whyche thynge from Cristes deth vnto theyr owne dayes, neuer was there heretyke so farre fallen in fylth, no nor Turke I trow, nor Sarasen, nor Iew, nor Paynem neyther, that euer sayd such a thyng, or durste for very shame, so that all the world therby may well perceyue and se, that of all shamefull shamelesse sectys that the deuyll can dyuyse, these be the botome of the draffe tubbe and the moste poysoned dregges. But now doth Tyndale after this to proue that the credence geuen vnto the catholyque chyrche, muste nedes be weke & feble/ brynge in the Turkes & the Iewes agaynst vs in this maner wyse. Tyndale. The Turkes beynge in nomber fyue tymes mo then we, knowlege one god, and byleue many thynges of god, moued onely by the authoryte of theyr elders/ and presume that god wyll not let so great a multytude erre so longe tyme. And yet they haue erred and ben faythlesse this.viii. hundred yeres. And the Iewes byleue thys daye as myche as the carnall sorte of theym euer byleued, moued also by the authoryte of theyr elders onely/ and thynke that yt is impossible for them to erre, beyng Abrahams seed, and the chyldren of them to whom the promysses of all that we byleue were made. And yet they haue erred and ben faythlesse thys.xv. hundred yeres. And we of lyke blyndnesse byleue only by the authoryte of our elders, and of lyke pryde thynke that we can not erre, beynge such a multytude. And yet we se how god in the olde testament dyd let the great multytude erre, reseruynge alwaye a lytle flocke to call the other backe agayne, and to testyfye vnto them the ryght waye. More. Lo good chrysten reders, in these wordes Tindale geueth a spec- yall goodly doctryne, ys yf we byleue the doctryne of the catholyke chyrch of Cryste: then haue we no more suertye of our fayth then the Turkes haue of theyrs or ye Iewes of theyrs/ consyderynge that the Turkes excede vs so farre in nomber and the Iewes matche vs in tyme. I meruayle myche that Tyndale addeth not vnto them the Paynems also, as his mayster Luther dyd in the same argument. For the Paynems passed bothe the catholyque Chrysten chyrche, and the false Iewes, and Turkes, and Sarasyns, and the false heretyques to, as well in tyme as nomber. But yet I meruayle myche more that he hath so lytle wyt as to wene, that the bryngynge in any of them all were [Bbiv] any thynge at all to purpose. For well ye wote good crysten reders, that as I haue touched all redy we haue in geuynge credence vnto the catholyke chyrche two maner of mocions / one kynde of outwarde causes such as myght yf the mater were worldely, moue mannys reason to the full agrement and consent therof And that the tother mocyon is in them that byfore theyr baptysme haue vse of reason, the goodnesse of god fyrste preuentynge them, wyth the occasyons of some outwarde mocyon / and then walkynge and workynge wyth theyr conformable wyllys into the consent of that godly treuth, and therwyth geuynge theym by baptysme that grace to is rewardable wyth glorye, but yf some other synne be the let vpon theyr part. And in such as are baptised yong, ys inwarde mocyon is the same goodnes of god preuentynge theym, with the habytuall fayth infounded in the sacrament of baptysme. Vppon the seed wherof wyth the good helpe of goddes grace, there spryngeth after in the good and well appliable wyll of man, the frute of credence and bylyefe whyche they geue vnto crystes catholyke chyrche, accordyng to his owne commaundement vppon the preachyng of the same chyrch/ in the reasons whyche the same chyrche by goddes good ordynaunces geueth as outwarde meanes of credence and enducynge to the bylyefe, both of yt selfe and of the scrypture & of euery part of fayth, as I byfore spake of and shall hereafter speke more. Now as for thys inwarde cause/ we can not bynde the hethen by. For though we tell yt theym/ they wyll not byleue vs, or peraduen- ture tell vs the same tale of them selfe, and saye that god moueth theym. But on the tother syde vnto all good crysten men thys thynge muste nedes make yt open, that Tyndale in bryngynge forth for his part the Iewes & the Turkes, to make vs byleue that we maye be as Well deceyued in byleuynge the catholyke chyrche syth Crystes days hyther to, that the bokes of the new testament be the trew scrypture of god, as the Iewes in theyr Talmud or the Turkes in theyr Alcharon are deceyued in the beleuynge of theyr elders, is a very frantyke blyndenesse. For syth amonge all crysten men this is a playne bylyef, that the chyrche of Criste is gouerned by the spyryte of god in ys trewth, & that all those other chyrches are gouerned by the deuyll in theyr falsed: now is to good chrysten peo[Cci]ple Tyndals argument none other then euen thys. The chyrches that are gouerned in falsshed by the deuyll that ledeth them into falsshed, maye be deceyued and erre / ergo the chyrche that is gouerned in trewtg by the spyryte of god that ledeth it into all trouth, maye be deceyued and erre in lyke wyse, syth they be not so many as the false Turkes be, nor haue not contynued so longe as the false Iewes haue. Is not thys a substancyall reason trowe you, fyrste for the inwarde causes of our fayth and theyrs/ whiche causes arre bytwene vs and them more farre vnlyke, thenne are theyr fayth and oures? And then as for the outwarde causes of our fayth, Tyndale maketh as though we had none other but lengthe of tyme or nomber of peple, wherin some false sectes passe vs. But surely yf we were now to talke wyth eyther Turke or Iewe, as we be to talke wyth these here- tykes / we wolde haue outwarde causes inough to laye, wherfore the catholyke chyrche ought of reason to be byleued before any of theyrs, and agaynste them all to/ and yet mo good causes haue we for that poynt to lay agaynst these heretykes then agaynste a11 the tother. But Tyndale wyll happely saye to me therin, as Luther answered the kynges grace, that the Turke wolde laughe at all our reasons. But thys is a wyse answere surely, that we sholde be ashamed of euery reason that the Turke wolde laugh at/ and laye forth none but suche as we be sure the Iewes and turkes wold allowe. Then must our sauyour Cryste haue holde hys peace/ for the Iewes alowed not hys. But lyke wyse as though all wolde not, yet many dyd/ and euyn so sholde they now I dowte it not. And lyke wyse as though the remanaunt wolde not, yet had they causes inough shewed them why they sholde: so shold these now haue to. But syth Tyndale wyll in no wyse agre, that for the catholyke chyrche we coulde lay any causes vnto the Iewes or Turkes, wherfore they sholde of reason gyue any credence to it, and vppon the cre- dence of it to take the newe testament for scrypture, as saynt Austayne sayth that hym selfe dyd: then yf we wolde any sende thyther to preche the trewe scrypture amonge them, and make them fyrste per[Cciv]ceyue and byleue which bokes be the very scrypturys, syth they wolde byleue of lykelyhed no one man of the catholyke chyrche in that poynt better thenne all the whole/ and that poynt muste nedes by Tyndales doctryne be knowen fyrste, as the thynge wythout whyche nothynge can be proued: there is no remedy but sende some of Tyndals electes. For the trewe reasons and effectuall, haue onely ye wote well they. But fyrste how shall we knowe them? yes well inough perde. For yf they be freres, we knowe them by weddynge of nonnes. Well sende Luther then. How be it that may not be/ for he sholde be but laughed at there, bycause he alloweth the reason of saynt Austayne that he knoweth the scrypture by the catholyke chyrche, bycause the chyrche hath he sayth the knowledge and dyscernyng therof from all other wrytynge specyally gyuen by god. Well wyll we do well then, lette vs sende so good a man as no man can dowte of, but that he is an electe/ and who sholde that be but holy wyllyam Tyndale hym selfe? what reasons wyll he laye to them? He wyll saye by lykelyhed, 0 all you Iewes and all you Turkes to, and all ye Saracenys hedes, harken here vnto me, and geue credence vnto me, and byleue me, that these bokes be the very scripture of god/ but byleue it neuer the rather though all the knowen catholyke chyrche saye so, for they be all as badde as ye be, and ech of you as credyble as any of them/ and then be you Iewes of more antyquyte then they, and ye Turkes and ye Saracenys fyue tymes so many as  they/ and therfore why sholde you byleue the catholyke chyrch for any thyng that they can saye vnto you? But I shall tell you whom ye shall byleue. I saye ye shall byleue me, and I shall tell you a good cause why. For I haue a felynge fayth. For what so euer I tell you, god hathe hym selfe so wryten it in myne herte, that I fele it to be trewe. And therfore thys is a playne euydent open cause wherfore ye sholde byleue me. Lo when Tyndale wold telle them thys tale they could not ye wote Well laugh therat, for it coulde not be but the felynge fayth of hys false harte they muste nedes fele at theyr owne fyngers ende. Hath he not wysely handeled thys obieccyon of the [Cci] Iewes & the Turkes/ and towarde the auoydynge of the catholyke chyrche, & prouyng of hys felyng fayth brought them to a goodly purpose? But then cometh he forth in the ende of hys chapyter, and sheweth vs that god euer in the olde testament dyd let the great multytude erre, reseruynge all waye a lytle floke to call them backe agayne, and shewe them the ryght way. And so he meneth that god hath now sent hym & hys mayster and those other holy heretykes, to teche the catholyke chyrche the ryght waye. But as I haue sayd before, god hath promysed to sende hys holy spyryte into thys chyrche, to teche it all trouth, & to remayne therwyth hym selfe also perpetually to guyde hys chyrche from suche fallynge of hys catholyke chyrche from the ryght fayth, that he sholde not nede to sende any such coll prophetes as these heretykes are, to teche hys chyrche the fayth/ as it appereth well by the olde holy sayntes of euery age syth thapostles dayes, wyth whose doctryne as it is by theyr bookes proued, the doctryne of the catholyke chyrche agaynst all these heretykes agreeth. Also whan he sent hys prophetes of olde, he was wonte alway to sende honest men on hys erand, that proued. them selfe by myracles/ and not suche rascayle rybauldes as call them selfe apostles, and proue it but by iestynge and raylynge. Goddes messengers were wonte also to teche euery man clennesse and honesty, & not as these bestely felowes do teche folke to breke theyr vowys, and freres to flye forth and wedde nonnes. More ouer yf the trewe flocke be alwaye a lytle flocke/ then be not these heretykes now the trewe flocke. For they be now growen not onely to a greate maynye of menne, but also a great shrewde sorte of flockes, flockyng in many countrees of chrystendome full faste, and in many places mych harme haue done, and mych more they go aboute. And therfore syth in some places the heretykes be now the gretter multytude, and the catholykes the lytle flocke: there are then yet (syth the treuth standeth by Tyndales tale in the lytlenesse of the flocke) the catholykes becomen the faythfull folke, and the heretykes the false, wythoute any chaunge of bylyefe on eyther other syde. [Cciv] Fynally those few folke that god was wont to reserue or sende to teche the worlde the ryghte waye, dyd agre in theyr doctryne. For ellys had the worlde ye wote well not wyste whyche of them to folowe. But now these heretykes be almost as many sectes as men, & neuer one agreeth wyth other/ so that yf the worlde were to lerne the ryghte waye of them, that mater were mych lyke, as yf a man walkynge in a wyldernesse that fayne wolde fynde the ryghte waye towarde the towne that he entended, sholde mete with a mayny of lewde mockynge knauys / whyche when the poore man hadde prayed them to tell hym the waye, wolde gete them into a roundell turnynge theym backe to backe, and then speke all at onys, and eche of them tell hym, thys waye/ eche of theym poyntynge forthe wyth hys hande the waye that hys face standeth. Fynally that lytell flocke that god reserued to call the great multi- tude backe, and to shewe the worlde the ryghte waye/ they were euer yet a knowen company. For yf men myghte not haue knowen theym, they neuer coulde haue herde them nor byleued them as folke of the trewe flocke, yf no man coulde haue knowen whyche were the trewe flocke. And then muste it theruppon folow, that yet the trewe chyrche muste be a knowen chyrche and not an vnknowen sorte of electes onely/ wyth such an vnknowen kynde of felynge fayth, as no man can fele in hys felowe/ nor no man can fele in hym selfe, but he whom all trewe faythfull folke may well and easyly fele for a false fumblynge heretyke, whyche by that false fumblynge fayth feleth that the blessed sacrament of the aultar the sacred body of our sauyour hym selfe, sholde haue none honour done to it ilor be taken for no thynge ellys but eyther for bare brede or starche. But now when he hath so well quytte hym wyth ys false turkes and the Iewes, agaynste the trewe catholyke chyrche of Cryste / he commeth forth wyth an other chapyter/ and therin for the fynall conclusyon of all hys mater concernynge the knowlege of the very chyrche, and for the fynall solucyon of the secondc argument made for the catholyke chyrche, and for the fynall confyrmacyon of hys false felynge fayth, he knytteth vppe all hys dyspycyons with these wyse wordes that folow. [Cci] Tyndale. How thys Worde Chyrche hath a double interpretacyon. Thys is therfore a sure conclusyon as Paule sayth Rom. 9. that not all they that are of Israell are Israelytes/ neyther bycause they be Abrahams seed are they all Abrahams chyldren / but they onely that folowe the fayth of Abraham. Euen so now none of them that byleue with theyr mouthes moued with the authoryte of theyr elders onely/ that is, none of theym that byleue with mayster Mores fayth, the popes fayth, and the deuyls fayth, whyche maye stonde (as mayster More confesseth) with all maner abomynacyons, haue the ryghy fayyh of Cryste or are of his chyrche. But they onely that re- pente and fele that the lawe is good, and haue the lawe of god wryten in theyre hartes, and the fayth of our sauyour Iesus euen with the spyryte of god. There is a carnall Israell and a spyrytuall. There is Isaac and Ismaell, Iacob and Esau. And Ismael persecuted Isaac, and Esau Iacob, and the fleshely the spyrytuall. Wherof Paule complayned in his tyme persecuted of his carnall brethern/ as we do in our tyme, and as the elecye euer dyd and shall do tyll the worldes ende. What a multyiude came out of Egypt vnder Moyses, of whyche the scripture testifyeth that they byleued moued by the myracles of Moses / as Symon magus byleued by the reason of philippes miracles Actes.viii. Neuerthelesse the scrypture testyfyeth that .vi. hundred thousande of those byleuers peryshed thorow vnbelyefe and lefte theyr carcasses in the wyldernesse, and neuer entred into the lande that was promysed them. And euen so shall the chyldren of mayster Mores faythlesse fayth made by the per- suasyon of man, lepe shorte of the reste whyche our sauyour Iesus ls rysen vnto. And therfore let them embrace this present worlde as they do, whose chyldren they are though they hate so to be called. And hereby ye se that it is a playn and an euydent conclusion as bright as the son shinyng, that the trouth of goddes word dependeth not of the treuth of the congregacyon. And therfore when thou ary asked, why thou byleuest that thou shaly be saued thorow Crist, and of suche lyke pryncyples of oure fayth/ answere, thou wotest and feleste that yt is trew. And when he asketh how thow knowest that yt is trew/ answere, bycause yt is wryten in thyne herte. And yf he aske who wrote yt/ answere, the spyryte of god. And yf he aske how thou camest fyrst by yt/ tell hym, whether by redynge of bokes or hearyng yt preached, as by an outward instrument/ but that inwardly thou waste taught by the spyryt of god. And yf he aske whether thou byleueste yt not bycause yt is wryten in bokes, or bycause the prestes so preache/ answere no not now/ but only bycause it is writen in thyne herte, and bycause the spyryte of god so preacheth and so testyfyeth vnto thy soule. And saye though at the begynnynge thou wast moued by redynge or preachyng as the Samarytanis were by the wordes of the woman/ yet now thou byleuest yt not therfore any lenger, but only bycause thou hast [Cciv] herde yt of the spyryte of god and red yt wryten in thyne herte. And concernynge outwarde teachynge/ we allege for vs scrypture elder then any chyrche that was this.xiiii. hundred yeres, and olde autentyke storyes whych they had brought a slepe where with we confound theyr lyes. Remember ye not how in our owne tyme, of all that taughte grammer in Englande not one vnderstode the latyne tonge? how came we then by the latyne tonge agayn? not by them, though we lerned certayne rules and pryncyples of them, by whyche we were moued and hadde an occasyon to seke forther, but oute of the olde authors. Euen so we seke vppe olde antyquyyes, out of whych we lerne, and not of our chirch, though we receyued many pryncyples of our chyrche at the begynnynge, but more falshed amonge yhen trewth. More. Now good chrysten reders, here haue I geuen you all his whole processe to gether vppon an hepe, wherwyth he endeth all his dyspycyons concernynge the knowelege of the very chyrche. For now after all that ended/ he falleth from dispycyons to preachyng, from his mater of the tytle of his boke, that is to wyt whyche is the chyrche, vnto the two great conclusyons that god hath he sayth wryten in the hartes of all his electes. The tone is he sayth the fayth of Cryste, by whych they knowe how god is to be honoured, and therby they fele & perseyue well inough wythin theyre owne hartes, yt the sacramentes be as Tyndale sayeth but bare sygnes and memoryales, and none effectuall instrumentes of grace, nor the sacramente of the auter nothynge but brede or starche. And the second conclusyon is the loue of theyr neyghbours as them selfe, <2by>2 <2whyche they can suffycyently iudge>2 sayeth he <2betwene good and euyll, ryght >2 <2and wronge, godly and vngodly, in all conuersacyon, dedes, lawes, bergaynys,>2 <2couenauntes, ordynaunces, and decrees of men/ and knoweth the offyce of euery>2 <2degree, and the dewe honour of euery person/>2 so that by this ye may well perceyue that who so euer haue any lesse knowlege then this, he is by Tyndales owne doctryne none electe. But now syth god hath hym self wryten these conclusyons so fully in theyr hertes/ Tyndale nedeth not yt semeth to make them so longe a sermon. But as though he fered yet for all his wordes, that god had not so fayre writen yt, but that some of theym coulde not rede yt/ he goth forthe wyth his collacyon of a great length, and techeth them after his fashyon what is very worshyppynge, and then a longe processe of images, pylgrymage, sacramentes, and ceremo[Cci]nyes. In all whyche longe sermon he sayth at length nothynge, but eyther such as is so comenly knowen allredy, ys a man may here his wife tell as mych to her mayed, or ellis so folyshe that a very nodypoll nydiote myght be a shamed to saye yt/ or fynally so false and blasphemouse, as scantely the deuyll durste teache yt/ sauynge that in the ende he gathereth a lytle his fyue wyttes well about hym, and expowneth there the wordes of ys pore Kentyshman whych I reherse in my dyaloge concernyng Sandwyche hauen destroyed thorow Tenterden steple. And there to knyt vppe all his whole sermon wyth/ he con- cluded agaynst me that of very trouth the byelding of Tenterden steple and other steples and chyrches in the realme, haue ben in dede the very destruccyon both of Sandwyche hauen, and Douer hauen, and all the other hauens of Englande, and of all the good bysyde that by good polycy myght in any wyse haue comen and growen to the realme. And thus wyth this goodly quyppe agaynste me for his qui cum patre lakkyng no more but an exhortacyon in the ende that men sholde therfore pull downe Tenterden steple, and so sholde Sand- wyche hauen amende, and pull down all the chyrches in ye realme & so sholde nede no more policy to make a mery world: the good godly man maketh an ende of his holy sermon, & gaspeth a litle and galpeth, and geteth hym downe of the pulpet. But for as myche good reders, as all this long sermon of his goth farre from oure present purpose, whyche is as ye wote well onely to wyt whych is the very chyrch / whych one thynge founden oute answereth and auoydeth playn as hym selfe well perceyueth, all hys whole hepe of heresyes/ and for as myche also as the poyntes of his sermon do specyally pertayne to sondrye dyuerse chapyters of my dyaloge: I shall hereafter in answerynge of his partyculare obiec- cyons, touche in theyr proper places, the deuylysh doctryne of this his holy collacyon. And for this tyme wyll I touche only those wordes that I haue rehersed you and examyne a lytle farther his felynge fayth, and vppon his owne wordes wyll I make it open, and on the wordes of his felowes and his mayster to, that none can be the very chyrch but onely the catholyke knowen chyrch/ and therwyth wyll I fynyshe all this present worke. Let vs therfore now consydre what great thynge thys [Cciv] man hath taught vs in this chapyter. To make vs clerely perceyue ys only electis ys can not synne though they synne, be the very chyrche/ and that the catholike knowen chyrch is not the chyrche: he telleth vs here for the fynall specyall profe that this worde chyrch hath a double interpretacyon / and that there is a carnall Israel and a spyrytuall Israell/ and that euen so is yt in the chyrche. What a great hygh secrete mistery this man teacheth vs here? any other then the selfe same that I haue tolde hym all redy mo tymes then his hande hath fyngers that in the chyrche there be both good and badde? And yet is yt for all that the very chyrch? as the arche of Noe was the ryght fygure therof that hadde therin both clene and vnclene, and of the menne also not all electes and good/ for of Noe hys awne sonnes one ye wote well was so ad, that his owne father accursed hym. And as the parable of our sauyour sygnyfyeth his net, that is his chyrche, catcheth & kepeth both good fyshe and bad, tyll yt come oute of the wauys of this worlde vnto the banke of the tother/ where the nette shall be taken vp and the fysh sorted, and the good saued and the bad cast away. And the felde of god shall bere both wede and corne, tyll the neruest come that both be reped/ and ys corne conueyed in to the baron, and the wede caste into the fyre. Ye and many very electe is at some tyme full noughte, and many somtyme full good, that yet wyll waxe after nought, and go to the deuyll at laste. And therfore I can wyshe no better for my purpose, then the very thynge that Tyndale here layeth agaynst yt. For syth that in the catholyke chyrche be both good & bad, and oute of the catholyke chyrche be none good but all bad/ as none were saued left out of Noe hys shyppe: this one thynge alone lo euen in the begyn- hynge brought in by Tyndale hym selfe, is suffycyent for all the mater for my part agaynst him, as a thynge clerely prouynge that onely the catholyke chyrche is the very trew, and all his other conterfete and false. Now where yt pleaseth hym to ieste and say, <2Euen so nowe none of>2 <2them that byleue with theyr mouthes moued with the authoryte of theyr elders>2 <2onely/ that is, none of theym that byleue with mayster Moresfayth, the popes>2 <2fayth, and the deuylsfayth, whyche maye stonde (as mayster More confesseth)>2 <2with all maner abomynacyons, haue the ryghte fayth of Christe or of his>2 <2chyrche:>2 euery man here well seeth howe lowde he bylyeth [Ddi] me, and what foly he layeth forth in thys lytle space. For fyrste I neuer sayed that any man byleueth wyth hys mouth/ whyche though it be the member wyth whych a man is bounden to confesse hys fayth, yet is it not the member wyth whyche a man byleueth, no more thenne his hele. And therfore in thys poynte Tyndale belyeth me onys. More ouer I sayde neuer that men byleue moued with the authoryte of theyr elders onely/ but I say that sauinge for the cre, dence gyuen to the authoryte of the knowen catholyke chyrche, Tyndale hym selfe had not knowen nor yet were sure at thys daye, whych bokes be the trewe scrypture of god. But I say therwyth that lyke as god hath ordered the bodyly wyttes as wayes towarde the vnderstandynge of reason/ so towarde thynges aboue reason he hath ordayned the bodyly wyttes and reason bothe, for wayes towarde the persuasyon. But yet syth the ende is heuenly and so hygh aboue the nature of man, that the nature corrupte, coulde not wythout helpe of god attayne and reche therto: god helpeth forth them ther- fore that are wyllynge wyth hys supernaturall grace, towarde the inclynacion of reason into the assent and obedyence of fayth/ and that the whole catholyke chyrche be it neuer so syke & sore in other synnes besyde, is yet ledde into the trouth of bylyefe by the spyryte of god. And thys is it that I haue euer sayed/ and therfore here Tyndale bylyeth me twyse. Now where he sayth that the fayth whyche may stande as I confesse wyth all maner of abomynacyons, is not the ryght fayth of Cryste nor of hys chyrche, but is as he sayth the popes fayth, and my fayth, and the deuyls to/ and that the ryght fayth is onely in them that repente and fele that the lawe is good, and haue the lawe of god wryten in theyr hartes, and the fayth of oure sauyour Iesus euyn with the spyryte of god: I saye that the very thynge that I saye of fayth alone, that it maye stande wyth all abomynable dedes, Tyndalys owne felynge fayth feleth and affermeth the same. For Tyndale sayeth that hys electes hauynge hys felynge fayth, may and do by the frute of synne remaynynge in theym and brekynge oute at theyr frayle membres, fall in to ryghte horryble dedes/ and that yet theyre faythe standeth stylle therwyth and neuer fayleth at any tyme, and that bycause therof all those horryble [Ddiv] dedes be they neuer so greate abomynacyons, be yet no dedely synne. That Tyndale thus playnely sayth, ye haue your selfe sene in my fourth boke before. And then that it playnely foloweth vppon hys tale, that wyth hys owne felynge fayth all maner abomynacyon maye stande, and howres, & dayes, and monethes, and yeres, abyde and dwell togyther, ye se playnely your selfe. And therfore ye se also as playnely, ys syth I neuer sayd as Tyndale reherseth me, that men may byleue wyth theyr mouth/ nor neuer commended fayth alone for suffycyent as Tyndale here bereth me in hande, makyng fayth alone to be myne/ and in that I sayd that fayth may be not alone onely wythout other vertues, but stande also with all abomynable dedes and vyce: I sayd but the same & yet not all the same for fayth alone, that Tyndale sayth hym selfe for hys owne felynge fayth/ not alone but accompanyed as he wolde haue it seme, with hope & cheryte both. These thynges beyng thus, when he lyketh hym self Well, and weneth he iesteth as properly as a camell daunseth, in callynge it my fayth, and the popes fayth, and the deuyls fayth/ euery man I wene that well marketh ye mater, wyll be lykely to call hys propre scoffe but a very colde conceyt of my goffe, that he founde and toke vp at sottys hoffe. I say to Tyndale yet agayne, that as ferforth as perteyneth onely to the nature of fayth, that is to wyt to the bare bylyefe alone/ that fayth that maye stande wyth all maner of abomynacyon is a very ryght fayth and a trewe. But I saye that though it be as it is, bothe ryght and trewe/ yet is it not suffycyent to bryng a man to heuyn, yf it not onely maye but also do, stande wyth any kynde of abomyn- able synne, bycause it is than lewd Luthers fayth and Tindals fayth, ys is to saye fayth not alone, but fayth coupled with abomynable synne. But now that fayth alone, that is to saye bylyefe alone is very ryght fayth and bylyefe/ is a poynt whyche I haue all redy proued hym mych more ofte I dare well saye then hymselfe hath sayde masse thys moneth/ and therfore I wyll not now laboure mych about it. And to say the trouth the thynge is so playne & open of it selfe, that sauynge for thimportune bablynge of these heretykes, no man sholde euer haue neded to go aboute the profe at all. For what sholde I go about to proue the thyng that saynt [Ddi] Poule proueth for me, whych sayth of hym selfe ys though he had all fayth / yet yf he lacke cheryte therwith he were no thynge? what nede I now to go any ferther therin, syth saynt Iamys reasoneth, dysputeth, & dyffyneth the mater, concludyng that fayth maye be without good wurkes / but then affyrmyng that when it so is, than it is dede/ not dede in the nature of fayth, but dede as vnto the state of saluacyon/ as the men of whome oure sauyour spake, where he sayth, Let the dede men bery theyr dede men, and folowe thou me/ he ment not I suppose that men naturally ded in dede sholde bere the dede corps to beryenge. Ye sayth Tyndale but yet thys is not the ryght fayth of Cryste. I saye yes/ for as farre as belongeth to the onely fayth, that is to saye to the onely bylyefe of these poyntes & artycles that Cryste wyll haue vs bounden to byleue. Yet sayth Tyndale thys fayth is not suffycyent for saluacyon, but yf it haue with it bothe hope and cheryte. What nedeth Tyndale to tell vs that tale? who dyd euer say nay to that? But yet be fayth, hope, and cheryte, thre dyuers & dystincte vertues. For as saynt Poule sayth, fayth, hope, & cheryte/ the greter of these is cheryte. Yet sayth Tyndale those thre be thre systers that neuer be asunder/ so that who so euer hath any one hath all. That is playne vntrew. For yf that heresye were trew/ then who so euer had fayth had all thre/ and who so euer had all thre had all that euer he neded. But now bycause of that false heresye, lest he that byleueth ryght in all the artycles, shold wene that therefore he lacked not cheryte, & so were saufe inough & neded no more: this was ys very cause for which both saynt Poule and saynt Iamys, labored so myche to tell vs that Tindale lyeth, labored so myche man may haue fayth and lacke yet bothe hope and cheryte. Ye sayth Tyndale but that is but an hystorycall fayth, that a mad getteth by hym self of his onely naturall power & is not the wurke of god in his soule/ and therfore ys faith is but faynt & feble, and soone gone agayne/ & is therfore no ryght fayth nor no chrysten fayth. For the ryghte fayth is wrought & wryten alway by god hym selfe in the mannes harte, and therfore it is neuer withoute hope and cheryte wrought & wryten within the harte togyther with ye fayth/ and is therfore a felynge fayth that neuer can fayle, & ther by neuer can ceace both to hope well and wurke well. [Ddiv] Thys is of trouth the whole somme and effect of Tyndales holy tale, wherin he dyd somwhat yf he wolde onys proue vs halfe. But fyrst I denye ys euery historicall faith, ys is to say euery hystorycall bylyefe & credence, is so faynt & so feble, that it is so soone gone as Tindale sayth it is. For we se profe inough that wyth many men it Standeth styll alltheyr lyfe be the thynge trewe or false/ as the false story of Machomet many Turkes take for so trewe, that they wyll not withstandyng many suffycyent causes, wherfore of reason they sholde reken it for false, they wyll I saye yet of obstynacy stand styll therin and abyde bond slaues in chrysten contrees vppon the borders of Turkaye, ye and dyed theron to rather then byleue the contrary. I saye forther that it is not trewe, that man in the bylyefe of the artycles of the chrysten fayth, geteth that bylyef by hym selfe of his own naturall power, wythout the helpe of god wurkynge wyth hym/ and yet I speke here of bare bylyefe, cheryte not yet ioyned wyth it. For syth euery man that seketh for the bylyefe, and endeuoreth hym self therto, purposeth therby to seke the way to saluacyon: the corrupte nature of man can neuer begyn to entre into that iournaye, nor walke forth one fote therin, but yf he be bothe fyrste preuented by grace, and haue it walke wyth hym styll. For our sauyour sayth, wythout me can ye nothynge do. But lyke wyse as a man maye by goddes helpe that calleth vppon euery man, entre in towarde the bylyefe, & yet leue agayne ere he gete it/ and byleue some one poynt and yet leue of at an other:. so maye he go forth wyth god into all the poyntes of bylyefe, and yet leue of and lacke hope. He maye also go forth in bylyefe and hope to, ye and ouer greate hope to/ and yet for the purpose of some flesshely delyte whyche he is not in mynde to leue, he maye leue of and lacke cheryte. For though the deuyll maye besyde such thynges as he verely knoweth, byleue some suche artycles as we do wyth out any preuen. cyon of grace, for as mych as in him beyng perpetually dampned, the bylyefe can be no furtheraunce towarde saluacion, and therfore can in hym be no mater of the wurke of grace: yet in man to whome the faythe is by goddes ordynaunce prouyded for a waye toward salua- [Ddi]cion though the way be two longe lanes besyde fayth, & ther- fore he may leue if he lyst ere he come at any of ys lanys end, that is to wytte hope and charyte: yet neuer can he fynde ys enterynge into the fyrste lane, that is to wytte into fayth, nor neuer can he sette forth any fote forwarde in yt, but yf god worke wyth his wyll. For our sauiour sayth, no man can come to me but if my father drawe hym. And who so be fallen into a depe pytte, and thens drawen out/ is not drawen from the brynke but from the botome. And so lyke wise god that draweth, draweth euen from the begynnynge and casteth downe the cord of his grace to take holde vpon, wheruppon who so taketh hold and holdeth styll/ is by god drawen vnto god, and helpeth hym selfe to be drawen. For as saynt Poule sayth, we helpe forth wyth god. I say also that after that god hath wrought wyth mannys wyll, and called hym by preuencyon of grace at the yeres of dyscrecyon, eyther from Iudaisme or fro gentylyty/ and fyndynge no lette in the man, hath by baptysme fully infounded the fayth, and wyth hope and cheryte put hym in state of grace, whych is all the wrytyng in the harte that euer I herde of: this man hauynge nowe not fayth alone but hope and cheryte to, and standynge in suche state of grace, that yf he then so deceaced, his soule sholde forthe with flye in to blysse byfore his body were colde: yet when he doth after that infusyon of fayth and grace, any thefte or auowtry, he leseth charyte alway, & by custome of synne somtyme hope to/ and leueth but bare fayth, that is to say bylyefe alone / and somtyme by false doctrine of heretykes leseth some of that to. And yet is fayth alone good to be kepte, ye and the very peyces and fragmentes of the fayth also/ for they be meanes by whyche a man maye the more easely come to the remanaunt that he hath loste or lakketh. And they helpe wyth goddes forther helpe, to kepe a man from some synne though they kepe hym not from all. For some man that falleth to thefte, somtyme remembereth yet his baptysme / and beynge by the deuyll entyced to kyll the man, maketh a crosse vppon his brest, & prayeth Crist kepe hym from it/ & in aduowtry lyke wyse. And god in that good mynde preuenteth the man by grace, & worketh wyth hys wyll in kepynge hym there- fro, as he gaue hym good thoughtes and offred hym his grace yf he Wold haue [Ddiv] taken holde therof, to kepe hym fro the tother to. And I doute not but yf god left hym in the tone as he lefte god in the tother / the deuyll that wyth his fleshe brought his wyll to thefte and aduowtry, wolde brynge hym to manslaughter also, and make hym kyll and murther the tone man for his money, the tother man for his wyfe. And thus ye se that of Tyndales ryall tale, there is not one worde yet proued trew, sauynge where he sayeth that all which come of Abrahams seed, are not Abrahams chyldren all/ but they only that folowe the fayth of Abraham. For I wyll graunt hym this, and a great deale more to. For I say farther, that all be not Abrahams chyldren 2o that haue Abrahams fayth, but if they haue his charyte to, and therby Worke his workes. For our sauyour sayth, yf ye be the chyldren of Abraham, worke ye the workes of Abra- ham. But ye be sayth he the chyldren of the deuyll, and after his desyres wyll ye do. Well wyll Tyndale yet say, syth yt is so that M. More graunteth hym selfe, ys though fayth alone be a very fayth and right and trew, for so farre as it stretcheth, yet bycause yt stretcheth not farre inough to saluacyon, in that yt beynge but alone lakketh both hope and charyte: wherfore doth mayster More speke so myche therof, beyng as hym selfe confesseth but insuffycient/ and not rather let yt passe and exhorte euery man to my felyng fayth, that is both suf- fycyent and also can neuer fayle? As for the fyrste poynte, the blame be theyrs that haue geuyn the occasyon. For men haue be fayn to speke so mych of fayth alone, for the selfe same cause for whyche saynte Poule dyd speke therof, and saynt Iamys both/ that is to wyt bycause these here- tikes now folowed the false secte of some suche as were then in the apostles tyme, teachynge that fayth alone was inough for saluacyon/ as Tyndales mayster Martyne Luther doth manyfestly and playne in his Babilonica, where he sayeth expressely that a chrysten man can neuer be dampned yf he will byleue, nor no synne can damne hym but only incredulyte, that is to say lakke of bylyefe. For as for all other synnys what so euer they be, fayth saith he if it eyther abyde styll or come agayn, suppeth theym all vppe in a moment/ and that god hath no nede of mannys good workes, but that he hath nede of oure fayth alone. [Ddi] This maketh folke to speke of fayth alone, and shewe by ye authorite of saynt Poule and saynt Iamys and many other places of holy scrypture, that Tyndales mayster holy Luther lyeth. But yet wyll Tyndale saye, syth I do nowe speke of fayth that is felynge and worketh well, and by reason of the felynge can not but worke well: what sholde mayster More eyle now to speke any more of the tother faith alone, that for lakke of felynge worketh not / consyderynge also that I bysyde the fayth that feleth and worketh well, adde repentaunce also of all that men do amysse, what faut therfore fyndeth he now? or what wolde the man haue more? Fyrste there ys yet cause to speke of fayth alone, bycause Tyndale is not an heretyke alone, but ys there be many mo besyde hym whyche yet saye styll as Luther dyd byfore. Also there is cause, bycause of Tyndale specyally, which wolde glose Luthers olde heresye wyth these new wordes whych wyll in no wyse stande/ wyth whych he wold make the world to wene that in fayth alone he ment fayth, hope, and charyte/ and that yt coulde not be that he any other ment, bycause there can be none other fayth but onely that alone ys hath both hope and charyte therwith:. and by thys bald glose that thre vertues be all one vertue, and that one vertue were thre, agaynst both reason and scripture, wold he mokke vnlerned people, and make them byleue that Luther ment well, and that all other men were so madde that they coulde not vnderstande hym. And therfore to make open this wyly foly of Tyndale, is also a cause why that I speke so myche of fayth alone, bysydes the necessyte of answerynge hym concernynge his worshyp- pefull euasyon of his owne felynge fayth, on whych he hopeth that he maye be bold, bycause no man can come into his brest to se what maner of felynge hym selfe feleth there. But yet hath god of his great goodnes begyled hym, & made hym so madde in the brayne, that he hath vttred hym selfe such thynges with his own penne, as (our sauyour sayenge hym self ys the mouth speketh of the abundaunce or fulnesse of the herte) muste nedes make euery man to fele euen at his fyngers ende, that Tyndale in the botome of hys harte wyth his fulsome felynge fayth, feleth a foule fylthy hepe of false fumblynge heresyes. [Ddiv] For yet is his fayth worse then fayth alone, whyche he calleth the deuyls fayth and myne. For as saynte Iamys sayth, The deuyls do both byleue & tremble also for drede / but thou (sayeth he to Tyndale and euery suche as Tyndale is, that for his felyng fayth sayth ys he is so great with god, ys he may do many horryble dedes wythout any dedely synne) art worse then ys deuyll bycause thou doste not drede. Bysydes this, syth Tyndale teacheth suche a felynge fayth as no fayth as he sayth can saue a soule but yt/ and then teacheth therwyth all that toward the getyng therof, no man can any more do then the chylde can to the bygettynge of his owne father, that is to say all moste lesse then ryght nought: what doth he by this teachynge but teache euery man to syt styll & go nothynge aboute yt? And when he sayth good workes be nothynge of our wyll, but necessaryly sprynge out of the felyng fayth, and yet be but lyke leues rather then frut/ for he sayth they shall neuer haue rewarde in heuen, but that yt were damnable to thynke that euer they shold, though he wold by other wordes byd men to do them, yet doth he by this tale so strongly teache the contrarye, that who so byleueth hym shall leue theym all vndone. And when he teacheth repentaunce wythout shryft or penaunce & sayth ys shryft is the inuencyon of the deuyll/ could he euer haue comen into the felyng of that false fayth, but yf the deuyls owne hand had fumbled about his herte? I passe ouer his false fayth in all the other sacramentes, his calling of Cristes blessed body bare cakebrede or sterche, with his doctryne of lecherye betwene freres and nunnes, and many madde fransyes mo that he techeth besyde/ this one thynge is inough and may serue for all to gether, that he teacheth his felynge fayth onely to serue for saluacyon, and wythout whych he sheweth euery man must nedes go to the deuyll. For other fayth he putteth none, but such as he sayth is frutelesse/ and then teachynge therwythall that towarde the getynge of that fayth (whyche excepte he gete he muste nedes to the deuyll) no man can any thynge at all do by good endeuour: he both techeth that it were in vayn for any man to labour for yt, or so myche as pray therfore, or in hys herte onys to wyshe yt, syth he coulde wyth no suche thynge helpe any thynge towarde yt, or for such desyre be any thynge the nerer, but syt euen styll and let god [Eei] worke alone. And yf he fele any good mynde, neuer labour to kepe it. For he that sent it can kepe it yf he lyste. And yf he wyll not what can the man do? And yf he wyll/ the man then shall not nede nor nothyng can yf he wold in tornyng towarde god/ no more then the hachette can in a mannys hande, which though it may with the mannys hand wurke vppon the tree, yet canne yt not of the owne nature any thynge helpe it selfe, to moue and turne backe towarde the man. Thys is Tyndalys teachynge / and thys ys hys owne ensample, wherby he sheweth vs that we canne nothynge do in turnynge to. warde god, but god doth all alone. And thys dothe Tyndale tell vs and well and boldely dare/ no thynge aferde of god that cryeth the contrary by the mouth of Salomon, where he sayth: Turne agayne thou Sunamyte turne agayne. And where he sayth also, Turne to me and I wyll turne to you/ wolde the prophete wene you haue sayd so to hys hachet? Now where he sayth also, Turne you to me & ye shall be saued: Lyke as if man coulde turne wythout god, Cryste wolde not saye wythout me ye can do nothynge / so yf on the tother syde man coulde nothynge at all do in the turnynge towarde hym, no more then can the hachette in turnynge towarde the man, god wolde not so often and so ernestely call and cry vppon vs, nor stande and knocke at the dore of oure harte, yf our selfe coulde nothynge do to the openynge therof, and therby to lette hym in. Now Tyndale not onely techeth vs this vngracyouse lesson, by lo whyche he wolde make men so to loke for grace, that for the lacke of theyr owne endeuoure they maye be wurthy to lese it/ but also syth he both techeth vs that with out that fayth euery man is damp- hed/ and then techeth vs also, that to the gettyng therof no man can hothyng do: he techeth I say by these two thinges togither, euery wreched wylfull beste to lay the weyght of his wrechednes & the malyce of hys own wreched wyll, vnto the prouydence & predestynacyon of god. And syth that thys ys so hygh an heresye, so sore blasphemynge the dyghe maiestye of god: I saye that Tyndalys felynge faythe ys yet farre wurse, not onely then bare faythe alone, but also thenne no faythe at all/ as it [Eeiv] were lesse euyll neuer to haue herde of god nor neuer haue thought of hym neyther then to byleue that there is god, and then so bestely to blaspheme hym. And where as Tyndale calleth fayth alone, the fayth of the pope and of the deuyll & me/ what fayth the pope hath or my selfe eyther, god shalbe iudge and not Tyndale. But surely as for hys owne felynge fayth, hym selfe here clerely declareth that it is double as deuelyshe as the deuyls own fayth in dede. Fyrste for the poynt that saynt Iamys speketh of, bycause of hys malepert presumpcyon, affyrmynge that for the felynge fayth he maye do myche horryble dedes wythout any dedely synne, & therfore is as saynt Iamys sayeth oute of the drede of god/ and therin worse then the deuyll whyche bothe beleueth and trymbleth also for drede. And secundely is hys felynge fayth wurse then the deuyls is, in that the deuyll byleueth that the very body of Cryste is in the blessed sacrament of the aulter, and fereth, and trymbleth, and gyueth reuerence therto, ye and vnto the image of Crystes crosse also/ a hath in euery age bene proued in sundr places of chrystendome and dayly ap- pereth yet / where as Tyndale calleth blessynge and crossyng but waggyng folkes fyngers in the ayre, and fereth not (lyke one that wolde at length wagge hempe in the wynd) to mocke at all such myracles, an say the deuyll fleeth from folkes blessynges as men fle from chyldre faynyng them selfe aferd of them when they lyste to sporte and play with them, nor fereth to mocke the sacrament the blessed body of god, & full lyke a stretche hempe, call it but cake brede or starche. And fynally yet is hys faythlesse felyng fayth farre wurse then is the deuyls, in that the deuyll I dare saye byleueth and so layeth t mennes charge, that suche as do not byleue myghte yf they wolde and such as do not turne to god, myghte yf they lyste/ and layeth vnt the dampned soules the cause of theyr owne dampnacyon, where Tyndale techyng vs ys they could do no thyng to the contrary, layeth of theyr dampnacyon all ye blame in god. Which blasphemouse heresye is such an heighnouse kynde of abominable outragyouse blasphemy, ys I veryly suppose in my mynde, thys poynt ys Tindals faith feleth in his hert, ye very wurst damp[Eei]ned deuyll in the depest doungeon in hell wolde abhorre. And thus hath Tyndale in iestynge vppon my fayth, to thys goo poynt wysely broughte hys owne. And now where he goth forth holyly and precheth vs, <2that there is a>2 <2cerarnall Israell and a spyrytuall, there is Isaac and Ismaell, Iacob and Esau,>2 <2And that Ismael persecuted Isaac, and Esau Iacob, and the Peshely the>2 <2spirytuall, and that saynt Paule complayned that he was persecuted of hi>2 <2carnall bretherne.:>2 what wyse conclusyon wyll Tyndale make of thys? Mary no lytell thynge nor lyke no small fole I warraunt you. For 1 thus he concludeth, <2and thus do we in our tyme and as the electe euer dyd>2 <2and shall do ty11 the worldes ende.>2 By thys he techeth vs lo that euer more the electes be they that be persecuted, and they be the very Isaackes, the very Iacobs, & the very spyrytuallys, and the very apostles, and the very Paulys/ and on the tother syde therfore all they that perse- cute any man, what can men call them by ryght but Ismaelys, & EsSaues, & reprobates, and very carnall fleshflyes? And by Tyndals holy tale, when Dauyd was persecuted of Saule, then was Dauyd an electe. But when he persecuted eyther the pliylystyens or the rebellys that rose with Absolom, mary fye for shame for that was a foule faut, for then was he a reprobate. And Moyses when he was persecuted and fled/ thenne was he an electe. But when he pursued with the well byleuynge people the false idolaters of hys owne company, then was he a reprobate and as many as went wyth hym. Saynt Poule also when he was persecuted of hys carnall brothern, then was he a good man and a very electe. But when he persecuted Hymeneus & Alexander, & gaue theyr bodyes to the deuyll to teche them leue theyr blasphemye/ then Tyndale maketh hym an Ismaell and an Esau and but a carnall reprobate. And our sauyour hym selfe also whyle the Iewes persecuted llym then agreeth Tyndale by thys reason ys he was all that whyle good & holy & spyrituall. But when he made a whyppe onys and persecuted them, & bette them away all that boughte and soulde within the temple, the temple beynge but a temple of stone to (by whych maner of temples Tyndale setteth not a straw) what maner man Tyndale here maketh oure sauyour that he shall tell you hym selfe for me, and in thys wyse reason of hys he telleth vs ye se well all redy. [Eeiv] And euyn in lyke wyse now, when trewe men, catholykes, and good men do persecute theuys, heretykes, & murderers/ then are all tewe men, all catholikes, and all good men, playn Ismaelys, Esaus, and carnall/ and the theuys, heretykes, and murderers, without any chaunge of purpose to the better, be by and by bycause they be persewed, not for iustyce but by iustyce, turned frome euyll to good, and sodaynly be bycome the Isaakes and the Iacobs and the very spyrytuallys. But now what when the theuys, heretykes, and murderers persecute the trewe men, the catholykes and innocentes, as in Swycherlande and Saxony they do/ what wyll Tyndale calle theym than? wyll he call theym by theyr ryghte names and tell what they be worthy? I fere me the turnynge of Tyndals felows to the lefte syde, wyll alter and chaunge the case, and make hym somwhat to mollyfye and mytygate hys iudgement/ and playe as the lady dyd, of whorne when one asked what that man were worthy whyche hauynge a fayre yonge woman to hys wyfe, toke her mayde besyde, she gaue sen- tence shortely and sayd he were wurthy by the mary masse to be hanged by ys necke vppon the nexte bough. But when she was then demaunded ferther, what were that woman worthy, whyche hauynge a goodly yonge gentleman to her husbande, toke yet hys seruaunt bysyde/ now in good fayth sayed she and in my mynd, she were yet to blame to, ye and worthy by our blessed lady to be well sayd vnto/ and I promyse you faythfully euyn so sholde she in dede, had I the rule of her, but yf she were the better felow. Thus wolde (I wene) Tyndale be lothe to gyue any sore sentence vpon heretykes, what so euer they be besydes. And also I remember me nowe that he can not in dede wyth hys conscyence. For syth they be hys owne electes, and hys euangelycall bretherne, and felowys of his felyng fayth/ he hath perde tolde vs all redy that do they neuer so great horryble dedes, they do yet no dedely synne, and therfore worthy ye wote well but lytle prety penaunce, bycause they consent not to theyr synnes but commytte theym all of frayltye. He sholde be also in thys mater in a meruelouse perplexite yf he were made ys iuge. For how shold he bere hym self vpryght amonge all hys felowes, when he seeth well hym [Eei mismarked Ei] selfe that of them all, as all persew the catholikes, so euery secte perseweth other? For the Huyskyns and Suynglianys persew the Lutheranys, as Luther hym selfe complayneth/ and the Lutheranys them agayn/ & all they punyshe and kyll the anabaptystes/ so that by Tyndales reason there be none very Isaaks, and Israels, and spyrytuals, but the anabaptystes onely, bycause they lacke yet power to persecute. But Tyndale wolde here fynde some shyfte to excuse all the rable, rather then to call the persecucyon that heretykes make any maner synne at all. We wyll therfore neuer aske Tyndale the questyon nor make hym no iudge in this mater, leste we make (yf we folow hym) the world swarme full of all myschyefe/ for ther to fayne wold he bryng yt. But let vs aske saynt Austayn the questyon, whyche agaynste the Donatystes such heretykes then in Affryke as these be now in Al- mayne, playnly sheweth and declareth, that good men do very well, and deserue thanke of god in persecutynge and puny- shynge theym that be naughte. And he commendeth Sara for persecutynge and correctynge her mayde / and sayth not that yf she wolde be an electe and spyrytuall, she muste haue let her mayde haue persewed and beten her. And yet sheweth saynte Austayne farther and by good reason proueth, that these heretykes and all suche other as nought be, be the very persecutours euer more them selfe/ euen then also when yt semeth that good men persew them. But we shall let this processe passe, whych patche hath Tyndale here brought in, but for the saufegarde of heretykes, and impunyte of all myscheuouse people, a Iobbe as yt semeth of some other mannys makynge, and planted in at pleasure somwhat out of place, for any gay dependyng that yt hath eyther vpon the wordes that go byfore, or the wordes folowynge after vppon yt/ sauynge that in the wordes next ensewyng, he putteth vs in mynde of Moses, whyche beynge a very specyall electe and an holy prophete, and as the scrypture sayth a moste mylde & pytuous man, dyd yet persewe, punyshe, and kyll heretyques, idolaters, & scysmatyques, in great nomber among the Iewes / whych thynge destroyeth all that pleasaunt patche which Tyndale hath there put in, to proue all such as persew and punyshe such heretykes and scysmatyques, to be Ismaeles Esaus, and very carnall reprobates. [Eeiv] But forthwyth after that patche Tyndale goth forthe in great haste, and geueth agayne agaynste my fayth a meruelous sore assaute. Tyndale. What a multytude came oute of Egypte vnder Moyses, of whyche the scripture testyfyeth that they byleued moued by the myracles of Moses/ as Symon magus byleued by the reason of philippes miracles Actes.viii. Neuerthelesse the scrypture testyfyeth that.vi. hundred thousande of those byleuers peryshed thorow vnbelyefe and lefte theyr carcasses in the wyldernesse, and neuer came into the lande that was promysed them. And euen so shall the chyldren of mayster Mores faythlesse fayth made by the persuasyon of man, lepe shorte of the reste whyche our sauyour Iesus is rysen vnto. And therfore let them embrace this present worlde as they do, whose chyldren they are though they hate to be called so. More. The effecte of Tyndales tale is here as yt semeth, to teache vs what a great parell yt were to be by the persuasyon of men or myr- acles, persuaded to byleue in Cryst/ for as myche as of suche as by Moses and hys myracles were induced to byleue in god, vi.C. thousand left theyr carkeses in the wyldernes, and neuer came to the land of behest, wheruppon his conclusyon is and his entent as yt semeth, that in lykewyse who so euer be by men or myracles induced to byleue in Cryste, shall leue theyr soules in hell, and neuer come to heuen. For that is our lande of byheste. Now yf this thyng be so perilouse to be persuaded by men or myracles / I meruayle somwhat wherfore our sauyour hym self vsed those meanes to persuade theym/ and so sore layed yt vnto the charge of them, that wyth the worke of is myracles wolde not be persuaded to byleue his wordes/ & also dyd rebuke his apostles for that they dyd not byleue them that had seen hym rysen. But to the intent that no man shall nede to be a ferd for Tyndales tale, to take the frute of the myracles that god worketh dayly in his catholyque chyrche, to cause yt therby to be perceyued for his very chyrche, and theruppon to be ferme credence geuen therunto, both in lernynge which is the very scrypture of god, and also the trew frutefull sentence of the same, wyth all such other thynges as god hath doth and shall wyth his own spyryt teache vnto his chirch bysyde vnto the worldes ende: we shall a lytle examyne here Tyndales hygh solempne wordes. [Eei] Fyrste wyll we byd hym preue, that all those.vi.C. thousande dyed in desert for vnbelyefe/ and be bolde to tell hym that he belyeth the scrypture, for the scripture sayth not so. For the scrypture sheweth that many of them dyed for inordynate desyre of mete/ not in great necessite or for fere of famen, but for the insacyable appetyte of the fulfyllynge the delycate wantones of theyre taste/ whyche not con- tente wyth the pleasaunt meate of manna, longed sore and murmured that they myght not frampe in fleshe as the lollardes vse now to do on good frydaye. And therfore had they theyr bone graunted them, and theyr bane geuen them therwyth. For they were choyked therwyth / and so wyll some of these at length. Some of them were also swalowed vppe quykke wyth the grounde openynge vnder theym/ not properly for vnbylyefe, but nathelesse for that vyce whyche gooth next yt, that is to say for a scysme in gatherynge to gether wyth Abyron, Dathan, and Chore/ a bysye swarme of rebellyouse companye (as these scysmatycall heretyques do now) that swarued from the obedyence of Moses and Aaron whome god hadde appoynted for theyr gouernours/ whereof god by great myracle toke open vengaunce. And some other there were that there left theyr carcases in wyll- dernesse, for dyuerse other causes besyde vnbylyefe, as by the pro- cesse of the byble appereth. But now yf they all that lefte theyre carcases in desert, had there peryshed for vnbylyefe / what hadde thys made to the purpose agaynst vs? for we say not but that he which at one time byleueth very well, may for all that at a nother tyme fall from the fayth agayne/ as we se proued by Tyndale, and Luther, and Huyskyn, and many such other mo. But this I say for all that yet, that euen amonge that people whyle they were in deserte, the nomber of open vnbyleuers profes- synge theyre vnbelyefe, neuer were so many at one tyme, but that the trew byleuers were yet the stronger parte/ as yt well appered when the faythfull folke commaunded there to by Moses, arose and went wyth hym, & persecuted and bette, and subdued the fayth- lesse, and kylled of them great nomber. And so shall it euer be by goddes grace in crystendome, ys neuer shall there ryse so many mysse byleuers, but that the trew byleuers shall be styll the strenger. And though the faythlesse be some tyme suffred to prosper in theyr malycy[Eeiv]ouse rage by some euyll softenesse of suche as sholde resyste them, as dyd the naughty people whyle Aaron durst not wythstand them: yet shall god alway sone after send down some good Moses from the mount, that shall wyth the corage of godly zele rere vppe the faythfull, and shewe the prowde faythlesse heretikes, how farre they be to feble and to few. And when yt shall come to thextremite, Cryste shall come downe from his hygh mounte hym selfe, and gather hys flocke to gether/ and wyth the myghtye blaste of hys own blessed mouth shall ouerthrow and destroy the strong captayne of all these heretykes Antichryste hym selfe, and shall rule those ragyouse rebellyous scysmatykes wyth an iron rod, and all to frushe & to breke those erthely wreched heretyques lyke a sorte of erthen pottes/ and shall holde his dome day, and brynge therto and from yt vnto heuen, no smale nomber yet of those that shall then be lefte. Of whom saynt Poule sayth, Then we that lyue and remayn, shall be taken vpe with them also in ys cloudes to mete our lorde in the ayer, and so shall we for euer be wyth our lord. And euen so were there of those byleuers in lyke wyse, that byleued by the meane of men and myracles, many a thousande that came in conclusyon to the lande of byheste. For this can make no mater touchynge Tyndales reason, whyther they were the selfe same persones that came oute of Egypte wyth Moses or other, so that they were such as to byleue, were induced by men & by myracles. And suche byleuers were all the byleuers ys afterwarde came thyther. And therfore Tyndales tale of theym that left theyr carcases in the wyldernes, shall not nede to fere vs from the bylyefe atteyned & goten by the meane of mennys preachyng and goddes myracles / wyth whyche outward meanes god in all those that byleue worketh euer more. For Tyndale hath here no farther to say in that I can se, to make his tale serue any thyng for his purpose, except he tell vs that as many as came to the lande of beheste, were electes and had the felynge fayth bysyde/ and tliat all those that dyed in wyldernesse, were reprobates, and therfore hadde but the fayth of mennys teachynge and of myracles alone. But nowe yf Tyndale tell vs this/ we wyll praye hym proue yt. For tyll he do more then say yt/ we wyll not lette to say agayn, that with as many as byleued, god wrought hym selfe wyth theyr wylles, and that ellys they hadde not [Ffi] byleued neyther men nor rayracles. And we shall not let to tell Tyndale ferther, that of those byleuers whyche were enduced by the meane of men or myracles, there dyed in wyldernesse such as we may well trust to haue bene electes and to be now in heuen/ and therfore that they eyther had the felynge fayth yf none other myght suffycyently serue/ or ellys suche other fayth as they had goten by the meane of men or myracles, was for theyr saluacyon suffycyent inough. And surely yf it so were/ then yet agayne we shall not nede to fere. For yf we maye gete heuen we care for none other lande of byheste, nor for none other doth Tyndale put the sample, but by theyr comynge to the lande of byheste or theyr lesynge therof, to sygnyfye whyche maner fayth sholde attayne to heuen, and whyche sholde fayle therof and neuer attayne therto. And in dede as it semeth, Tindale meneth that all those whych lefte theyr carcases in the wyldernes, perysshed and lost heuyn for lacke of suche a felyng fayth/ and therfore he concludeth, <2euyn so>2 <2shall the chyldren of mayster Moresfaythlesse fayth made by the persuasyon of>2 <2men, lepe shorte of the reste whiche our sauyour Gesus is rysen vnto.>2 But now hath Tindale forgoten, that the prophete Moyses hym selfe that spake With god & was taughte by hym, & not persuaded by myracles eyther told him by other mennes raouthes, or wroughte in his syghte by the meane of other menne, but wrought by god by the meane & instrumeni of hys owne handes/ lefte yet for all that hys carcays & hys bonys in the wyldernesse/ and that hydde so surely, tllat neuer man shold after fynde them to cary them thense. Now syth not onely such as attayned faith by persuasyon of men, but such also as Tyndale dowteth nothyng to be sure of saluacyon, left theyr carcayses in the desert, & neuer came in the land of byhest: his ensample of them ys there left theyr carcayse no thynge maketh more agaynste the chyldren of mayster M. fayth as faythles as he calleth it, then agaynst the chyldren of Tyndals own felynge fayth. And therfore euery man may fele ys Tyndale hath brought in this poynt lyke a very fole. For euery man may well perceyue, ys the fayth which Tyndale reproueth in me & calleth it faithles, bycause men are enduced therin to by myracles & persuasyons of men/ Tyndale hym self knoweth to be ys fayth of holy saynt Austayne/ as his wordes agaynst the Manicheys whych Tindale hath hym selfe reherced, testyfye well and bere wytnes though Tyndals own glose were trewe. For yf he byleued [Ffiv] the chirch bycause they were than good men/ yet was he then enduced in to the bylyefe by the persuasyon of men. And yet is not he lepte shorte of that reste that Cryst is rysen to, but is therin/ and not in the reste onely but in the blesse to/ and so be many chyldren of the same faythe and many mo shall. But as for Tyndals fayth byleueth it selfe, that hym selfe and hys mayster and all theyr chyldren shall lye styll and slepe, and therfore lepe shorte of blesse and lyfe to tyll domes daye/ and then dare I be bolde to warraunt theym for as longe agayne after. But yet syth Tyndale telleth vs here that thys fayth of ours is nought, and by hys wyse reason the fayth of saynt Austayne to, bycause bothe he and we were induced to the bylyefe by myracles and persuasyon of men: Let vs besech Tindale beyng so specyall a prechour sent by god, to gyue vs his good gostely counsayle what we maye do yo come to heuen. What wyll he answere vs, what counsayle wyll he gyue vs? He wyll of lykelyhed bycause he lykeneth vs to Simon Magus that byleued for the myracles whiche he sawe Phylyp wurke, byd vs therfore do as saynt Peter bode hym do / to whome he sayed do penaunce for thys thy wyckednes, and praye to god yf he peraduen- ture wyll forgyue the thys euyll mynde of thy harte. We myghte here saye that the faute whyche saynt Peter found wyth Simon Magus, was not the fawt that Tyndale fyndeth wyth vs, that is to wyt the byleuynge for myracles and by persuasion of men/ but for that he wold with money haue bought the gyfte of the holy goste. How be it syth Tyndale I se well taketh thys fawte of ours for as greate a cryme as that of hys/ yt can not become vs to defende it, but confesse it for suche and be sory for it/ and shew hym that we be full heuy and repente it very sore, that euer we byleued eyther the scrypture the better for the chyrche, or the chyrche the better for the myracles that are dayly wroughte in it, or any pyece of the faytll for any myracle that Phylyppe wroughte or Iacob eyther, or any apostle of them, or yet our sauyour eyther. But now that we be so sory for it what wyll he byd vs more? Fastynge, prayeng, or pylgryrnage, or other wurkes of penaunce, we shall not nede to fere. For Tyndale vseth none/ but sayeth it is synne to do any. Well we shall be at hys counsayle content for hys pleasure to forbere all those synnys of payne and penaunce to/ but yet howe shall we do for faythe? For [Ffi] wythoute the very felynge fayth, no repentaunce can saue vs be we neuer so well ware in kepynge vs both fro sllryft and thryfte and satysfaccyon. What counsayle wyll he gyue vs therfore, how we maye labour for thys fayth? He hath gyuen vs playne answere all redy, that there is wyth vs no remedy. For syth we haue so hyghly offended god, not of weykenes, fraylte, and infyrmyte, as hys electes do when they falle into theyr horryble dedes, by ys frute of theyr synne remaynynge in theyr flesshe and brekynge out at theyr frayle members/ but euyn wyllyngely, and of purpose, and of pure malyce, whan we endeuour our selfe to byleue the artycles of Cristes fayth by myracles and persuasyon of menne, whyche fayth is as he sayth the deuyls fayth/ therfore as for the rest that god is rysen to, he telleth vs playnely we shall neuer come therto/ and therfore byddeth vs neuer loke there- after nor neuer care therfore, but lette it alone and thynke no more theron, but playe & make vs mery whyle we maye/ and whyle we can neuer haue good in the worlde to come, embrace therfore he byddeth vs and holde faste thys present worlde and the pleasurs therof whyle we maye, and be not so folysshe as to lese bothe. Is not here good chrysten readers a good lesson and a goodly gospell of this euangelycall doctour? I wysse saynt Peter answered not Symon Magus so sore ye wote well. But what, syth there is no remedy wyth vs, but that Tyndale wyll nedys dampne vs all in to Dymmynges dale / yet lette vs beseche hym of hys comfortable counsayle for some other good felowes, as haue bene by grace hyther- to kepte and preserued frome suche vngodly commynge into the fayth, and haue so well resysted all credence of myracles and all mennes persuasyons, that for any thynge that god coulde do by mene of men or myracles, they stande yet clere aborde and byleue nothynge at all. If some such good felowe wolde now beseche Tyndale to teache hym the meanes how he myghte gete hys felyng fayth/ what counsayle wold Tindale now gyue vnto hym: wyll he byd hym repente hys vnbylyefe? yf he so byd hym, the man wyll wene he mocketh hym. For how canne he repente the not byleuynge of any artycle, but yf he fyrste byleue that hys dutye is to byleue it/ and harde it is to conceyue or imagyne that a man maye byleue that suche a [Ffiv] poynte or suche a poynte euery man oughte to byleue, but yf he fyrste byleue that poynt hym selfe. And Tyndale hath also shewed vs that concernyng the byleuyng, the electe can no thynge do at all, tyll god make hym fyrste bothe for to se and fele and so forth/ and therfore when he telleth hym thys tale of bylyef, and then byddeth hym go and repente hys vnbylyefe byfore he tell hym how he maye fyrste come to the very felynge bylyefe/ the poore man maye well thynke that Tindale doth but mocke hym. What counsayle then wyll Tyndale gyue hym ferther? wyll he tell hym that it is the lyberall fre gyfte of god, and therfore aduyse hym to praye god to gyue it hym? If Tyndale tell hym thus/ then the man callynge to mynde Tyndals formare tale that he hath wryten and taught, that the wyll of man can no thynge wurke wyth god towarde god, though it maye wurke wyth god towarde outwarde thynges/ and now thys prayour yf it lye not in hys wyll, wherfore doth Tyndale aduyse hym to it? And yf it lye in hys wyll/ yet syth by Tyndals tale it can no thynge do toward god, and the turnynge of god to hym and hym to god (For yf it coulde, then could hys wyll do somwhat toward god, whyche Tyndale doth expressely denye) the pore man wyll wene that Tyndale doth yet but mocke. More ouer syth Tyndale expressely mocketh all endeuoure of mannys wyll in subdewynge of hys reason into the seruyse of the fayth of Cryst, and calleth it a betleblynd reason / the man wyll soone se that Tyndale is hym selfe betleblynde, yf he se not that it is then but a betleblynde counsayle to byd hym go pray therfore. For well ye wote the selfe same mynde and entent of prayenge that god may make hym byleue is some endeuoure of hys owne wyll towarde the bylyefe. And yet whenne Tyndale hath more ouer tolde vs yet more playne- ly, that the man can by hys wyll no more do towarde the gettynge of the fayth, then can the chylde in the begetynge of hys owne father/ and euery man well woteth that the chylde can not praye god to cause hys graundefather to bygete hys fater: thys man musye nedes perceyue that in byddynge hym to pray for the fayth, Tyndale doth playnely mocke hym. Fynally good faythfull reder, I can not in good fayth perceyue What counsayle Tyndale can geue any man to[Ffi]warde saluacyon, standyng his frantyke heresyes agaynst free wyll/ whyche as yt is in euery good and merytoryous worke preuented by the goodnesse of god, so doth yt in such as haue age and reason, worke and walke on wyth god/ not in other thinges onely but with endeuour also toward fayth, by credence geuynge bothe to myracles and good persuasyons of men/ whych thynges god hath here ordayned for the meanes towarde yt, conuenyent for the state of this present lyfe, and suffycyent for the iuste cause of damnacyon, of all such as for lacke of theyr owne deuour and for frowardnes of theyr owne fre wyll, do not vppon so suffycyent causes byleue / syth that yf there lakked not endeuour vppon theyr owne parte, the goodnes of god wolde haue assysted theym wyth his helpe to the perfeccyon and full infusyon of that grace in fayth, hope, and charite, that but yf the wyll afterward fynally fall therfro, shold bryng to the glorye from whyche they sholde neuer fall/ and towarde whych glory, Tyndale standyng his heresy, can not as ye se, bable he neuer so sayntly, geue any man any counsayle forwarde, but euen to syt styll, and do nought, and let god alone. For as ye se playnely to this ende at last cometh all his holy heresy, when yt is well examyned. And therfore wolde no yi mayster More be glad to chaunge his fayth for Tyndales lesse as false Tyndale calleth yt. But now concludeth Tyndale all his concclusyon thus. Tyndale. And hereby maye ye se that it is a playn and an euydent conclusion as bright as the sonne shinynge, that the trouth of goddes worde dependeth not of the treuth of the congregacyon. More. Who euer sayde that yt dyd? who was euer so madde to thynke that the trouth of goddes worde, depended vppon the mouthes of any mortall men or any creature eyther in erthe or heuen? but wythoute any outwarde dependens, hath his solydyte substaunce and fastenes of and in yt self But the thynge that ys in questyon betwene vs, ys not wherby Tyndale knoweth and I also that goddes worde is trew. But wherby he knoweth and I to, whyche is the worde of god, and bycause Tyndale and I be not agreed theruppon, but I saye wryten and vnwryten and he but wryten onely: I come nerer vnto hym therin, & aske hym how he knoweth whyche is the worde of god wryten, that [Ffiv] is to wyt, whych is the very scrypture. And then say I that the certaynte of thys thynge euery man that ordynaryly hath yt, commeth to yt by the catholyque chyrche. And that I say trouth in this poynt/ I thynke that euery crysten man that knoweth which be the scryptures, will for his owne part bere me witnesse/ as holy saynt Austayn hath all redy done for his parte, in the wordes of his before remembred wryten agaynst the Manycheis, where he sayth, I wold not byleue the gospell/ but yf the authoryte of the chyrche moued me therto. Whyche sayenge of saynte Austayne ye se your selfe that Tyndale hath so falsely and yet for all that so fayntly glosed for an answere, that they remayne styll vnanswered. And therfore as for Tyndales conclusyon, we wyll with good wyll graunte hym that yt is as clere as the sonne shynynge, that the trewth of goddes wordes dependeth not vpon the trewth of the congregacyon. But syth ye se good reders as clere as the sonne shynynge, that no man sayde the contrarye, nor the questyon betwene vs was not whyther goddes worde were trewe, bycause the chyrche sayth that goddes worde is trewe (For so sayth not the chyrche of Cryste alone, but Turkes, and Iewes, and Paynyms to, and all the creatures of heuyn, and erth, and hell to, sauynge these heretyques onely, whyche wolde wyth theyre false gloses make his wordes false, eucn such as they knowlege for his). But syth you se well as I say that oure questyon is not what thyng maketh goddes worde to be trew, nor by what meane men knowe goddes worde to be trewe/ but by what meane men know whyche is the trew word of god, and whether we know not whyche is the trew gospell by the meane & teachynge of the knowen catholyke chyrch or not by yt, but by some other chyrch or congregacyon vnknowen: ye may se your selfe as clere as the son shynyng, that Tyndale bryngeth in his bryght clere conclusion, not for to shew you any light of trouth, but for to lede vs from the syght of the mater and make vs loke vppon a wronge marke, or lede vs into the darke where we sholde se nothynge at all. But nowe syth Tyndale hath all this whyle proued in sucll wyse as ye haue herd, that we be not able to geue any good reason of our by- lyefe, so farforth as we geue credence to ye catholike chyrch, no more then ys Iewes or Sarasens: [Ffi] he remembreth hym selfe at laste, and leste hym self and his discyples myght peraduenture seme to fall in the same faut, he teacheth them now that are his electes and haue his felynge fayth, suche playne euydent answeres for the proue of theyr felynge fayth, that no man can aske any farther. For lo syr thus he sayth. Tyndale. And therfore when thou art asked, why thou byleuest that thou shalt be saued thorow Crist, and of suche lyke pryncyples of oure fayth/ answere, thou wotest and felesye yt to be trew. More. Ye wote well good reders that the pryncypall purpose wheruppon we go, is the argument whych Tyndale wold seme to soyle, that is to saye the argument by whyche we proue the knowen catholyque chyrch to be the very chyrch of Chryste/ bycause by that chyrche & none other we know whyche is the trew scrypture of Cryste. Wher- uppon we conclude that the same chyrche therfore and none other is the very trew chyrche, by whyche we know the trew doctryne. To this Tyndale hath as ye haue herde scudded in and out lyke an hare that had.xx. brace of greyhoundes after her, and were a ferd at euery fote to be snached vppe. For perceyuynge wefl that yf he graunte yt to be trew, that he knoweth whyche is the scripture by the catholyke chyrche, he muste nedes then graunte also that the same chyrche ys the very chyrche: he shyfteth in and oute now ye now nay/ & where as he can not in conclusyon auoyde yt, yet he finally seketh out a shyfte to slynke away slyly and seme not to graunt yt, shewyng vs that he knoweth not whych is the very scryp- ture by the catholyque chyrche, but by hys felynge fayth. Now is yt therfore good reason that Tyndale carye vs not away wyth other questyons from this poynte, & deuyse a questyon hym selfe, as why he byleueth that he shalbe saued thorow Cryst. For both is that questyon not so dyrectly to the mater, and also there maye peraduenture vppon that question arryse a nother questyon, that is whether the saluacyon of any determynate person yet lyuyng, be in the same person any artycle of bylyefe or not/ & some men wyll holde peraduenture that yt is not properly any poynte of the bylyefe but of hope. But therfore lettyng that question passe for this present/ [Ffiv] I shall purpose vnto Tyndales discyple the questyon that goth next to the purpose, and he shall answere as Tindale teacheth hym. For I am loth to talke wyth mayster Tyndale hym self I aske his discyple therfore this/ syr M. Tyndales dyscyple, syth ye saye that whyche is the very scrypture ye knowe not by the knowen catholyque chyrche as saynt Austayne sayde that he dyd, & Luther also your own maysters mayster sayth that he dothe: I praye you tell vs ther- fore how do you know that ye bokes of the.iiii. euangelystes be the very scrypture of god? To this questyon ye here how Tyndale standeth at his bakke, and prompteth hym in his eare in this wyse, <2Say thou byleuest it bycause thou>2 <2felest yt to be trew.>2 Very well and properly answered. Then wyll I aske him one questyon or twayn more. Wherfore byleue you that no good worke shalbe rewarded in heuen, and that freres may lawfully wedde nunnes, and that the blessed sacrament of the auter is nothyng but cake brede or starche? To all these and twenty suche questyons mo Tyndale teacheth hym thus, Answere thou wotest and feleste yt to be trewe. And when he asketh how thow knowest that yt is trew/ answere, bycause yt is wryten in thyne herte. And yf he aske who wrote yt/ answere, the spyryte of god. And yf he aske how thou camest fyrst by yt/ tell hym, whether by redynge of bokes or hearyng yt preached, as by an ouyward instrument/ but that inwardly thou waste taught by the spyryt of god. And yf he aske whether thou byleueste yt not bycause yt is wryten in bokes, or bycause the prestes so preache/ answere no not now, but only bycause it is writen in thyne herte, and bycause the spyryte of god so preacheth and so testyfyeth vnto thy soule. And saye though at the begynnynge thou wast moued by redynge or preachyng as the Samarytanis were by the wordes of the woman/ yet now thou byleuest yt not therfore any lenger, but only bycause thou haste herd yt of the spyryte of god and red yt wryten in thyne herte. Lo good reders here ye se that Tyndale hath instructed his dyscyple to make answere suffycyent to euery thynge that may be asked hym/ the whole effecte wherof standeth all to gether in two thynges. The fyrste, that all these poyntes of his fayth he byleueth, bycause he feleth theym wryten in hys harte by the spyryte of god. The seconde that though he came fyrste vnto them by writyng or preachyng and fyrste byleued theym for that wrytyng that he redde or preachynge that he herd, as the Samarytanys dyd for the womans wordes: yet now he byleueth hym not therfore, but onely bycause he redeth yt wryten by the spyryte of god [Ggi] in hys harte. Now for as mych as this outwarde meane of prechyng & redyng, is the fyrst meane by whych he cam therto, which meane he regardeth not now, nor hath no lenger any respect in hys bylyefe therunto/ & therfore syth he is nowe comen to that hygh poynte of felynge fayth, by whyche he redeth wryten by the spyryte of god in hys harte, that the bookes of the.iiii. euangelystes be very trewe scrypture of god, he byleueth it not now the better of a poynt bycause the catholyke chyrche sayth so: I wyll therfore aske thys good scoler of Tyndale, whyther he fele wryten in llys harte by the spyryte of god, that he hath a better fayth and a more perfayte than saynt Austayne had, after that god had by myracle turned hym to the fayth and wryte agaynst the Manicheys, from whose false secte god had called hym. Peraduenture this questyon wyll som what seme straunge to this dyscyple of Tyndale, bycause it is none of those to whyche hys mayster hath taught hym to make answere. But yet I thynke in conclusyon ys hys mayster wyll not aduyse hym to saye that he feleth hym selfe to haue a more perfayt bylyefe then saynt Austayne, in any suche thynge as saynt Austayne and he byleued bothe, leste euery man shold fele the mayster of such a scoler to proue a proud fole. Now on the tother syde, yf lle confesse that he fele not his owne fayth for any more perfayt then saynt Austayns was but byleue in hys owne mynde that saynt Austayne in any trewe poynt of bylyefe commune vnto them bothe, had as full a fayth and as perfayte as he: then wyll I aske hym wherfore he doth not now byleue the scrypture styll for the authoryte of the chyrche, as well as saynt Austayne dyd styll when he wrote of hym selfe agaynste the Mani. cheys, and sayd I wolde not byleue the gospell but yf the authoryte of the chyrche moued me therto. He byleued it for the authoryte of the chyrche alwaye styll/ and yet dare I saye and Tyndale I suppose dare not saye the contrary, but that the spyryte of god hadde as well wryten that conclusyon in hys harte, as in the holy harte of any dyscyple of Tyndale, whome Tyndale here teacheth, to answere vs the contrary. And thus as concernynge the knowlege of the very scrypture whyche is our pryncypall mater: Tyndals answere in the very chyefe poynte of all, but yf he proue hys [Ggiv] scolers fayth beyter then saynt Austayns/ hys answere that he techeth here hys dyscyple is not worth a rysshe. But now let vs in those other artycles aske thys good scoler of Tyndale, syth it is so that he feleth and fyndeth in his herte wryten by the spyryte of god, that freres & monkes that haue by vowe forsaken flesshe, may lawfully fall from fysshe to womans flesshe, and vnder the name of weddyng make stewed strumpettes of nonnes/ and feleth also by lyke felyng fayth, that good workes are nought worth nor shall be rewarded in heuen/ and feleth also by the same false felyng fayth, that in the blessed sacrament of the awter there is neyther the precyouse body nor bloude of Chryste, but onely cake brede and wyne or starche in stede of brede: I shall aske hym I saye therfore the questyon to whyche hys mayster hath bounden hym to make answere, that is to wyt how he came fyrst by thys fayth that is to saye the hystorycall fayth of them, byfore that the spyryte of god wyth wrytynge theym in hys harte, caused hym there bothe to rede them and fele them. For answere of thys questyon, Tyndale sayth to his scoler, <2Tell hym>2 <2whyther it were by redyng in bokes or heryng it preched.>2 Very well. Now syth his mayster byddeth hym tell vs, I wolde praye hym to tell vs, whyther by prechyng or redynge in bokes. To thys he wyll I wene answere me ys he lerned those thynges by prechynge. Then I aske hym by whose prechyng he came to it. To this muste he be fayne to saye, that by the prechynge of hys owne mayster wyllyam Tyndale, Luther, Lambert, Huyskyn, or Suinglius, or some suche other apostaticall prechers. But now to thys shall I tell hym agayne, that syth he had not the felyng fayth wryten by ys spyryte in his harte after his maysters owne tale, tyll he fyrst byleued the sarne thinges with an hystoricall fayth by the herynge of those holy prechers/ he muste to thentent that he maye lede vs in to the same fayth as they dyd hym, tell vs what reason he had to byleue them / seynge that they be neyther men of more lernynge, nor of more wytte, nor of so mych vertue, as were saynt Austayn, saynt Hierom, saint Basyle, saynt Cyprian, saynt Chrysostom, saynt Grygory, saynt Ambrose, wyth many such other lyke / whose holy lyuynge, trew fayth, & doctryne, god hath approued & testyfyed to the worlde by manyfolde wonderfull myracles/ all which holy doctours haue taught men to beleue ys contrary. [Ggi] To this questyon Tyndale techeth hys scoler to make answere and saye, that he byleued them bycause they laye so good authoryte for them. What authoryte laye they for them shall I saye? Now to thys questyon Tyndale hym selfe maketh an answere and sayth, Concernynge outwarde teachynge/ we allege for vs scrypture elder then any chyrche that was this.xiiii. hundred yeres, and olde auten- tyke storyes whych they had brought a slepe where with we confound theyr lyes. Remember ye not how in our owne tyme, of all that taughte grammer in Englande not one vnderstode the latyne tonge? how came we then by the laten tonge agayn? not by them, though we lerned certayne rules and pryncyples of them, by whyche we were moued and hadde an occasyon to seke further, but oute of the olde authors. Euen so we seke vppe olde antyquytes out of whych we lerne, and not of our chirch, though we receyued many pryncyples of our chyrche at the begynnynge, but more falshed amonge then trueth. Lo good readers thys dyscyple of Tyndale in these artycles of his felyng fayth, that good chrysten mennes good workes shall haue no rewarde in heuyn, & that frerys may wedde nonnes, and in hys blasphemy agaynste the blessed body and bloude of Cryste in the sacrament of the aultare/ he byleued hys mayster/ and his mayster his mayster Marten Luther, and the other lewde maysters of these newe sectes, not wythout a cause, ye se well. For he sayth that they alledge for theyr heresyes the scrypture & olde auncyent storyes/ & therwyth as men haue brought vp nowe the trewe olde grammer agayne, euyn so do they now brynge vp the olde trewe fayth agayne / wherof thoughe they toke some pryncyples of the catholyke chyrche at the begynnyng, yet they toke therof more falshed amonge then truthe. Now which those thynges are that he calleth the falshed that he sayth they toke of the chyrche / ye knowe good chrysten reders well inough, those are the poyntes for whyche he so sore iesteth and rayleth agaynst the catholyke chyrch, the techynge that good wurkes shalbe rewarded in heuyn, and that folke shold kepe the holydayes, & fastyng dayes, & pray for all chrysten soules, & honour the precyouse body & bloude of Cryste in the blessed sacra- ment, and obserue theyr holy vowes made to god, and forbede that freres sholde wedde nonnes, and many suche other thynges. These thynges he sayeth that the chyrche hadde taughte hym false, tyll that nowe Tyndale, and Luther, and [Ggiv] Lambert, and Huyskyn, and Suynglius, haue restored agayne the ryghte fayth in all these poyntes, that hath ben thys.viii. hundred yere loste as Tyndale sayth. These thynges haue they now restored and brought vp agayne by antyquytees and old storyes, lyke as mayster Lyly late mayster of Poulys scole broughte vp in London the ryght order in techynge of grammer & lernynge of the latyn tong. Thys is good reders the thyng that thys good scoler of Tyndale by the counsayle of hys mayster answereth. But nowe good readers we must tell hym agayne that hys ensample of grammer and the laten tonge, is nothyng lyke the mater of fayth that he resembleth it vnto. For the laten tonge was no thynge that euer our lorde promysed to preserue for euer/ and therfore it myghte by chauncys & occasyons of batayle and warre, perysshe and be loste/ and the countrees compelled to leue it and receyue some other language in the stede therof But as for ys fayth can neuer fayle, no more then canne the catholyke chyrche / agaynste wllyche our sauyour hath hym selfe promysed that all the heretykes that rebelle agaynste it, nor all the tyrauntes vppon erth that insourge and oppugne it, whyche two sortes be the gates of hell, shall neuer obtayne and preuayle / nor in lyke wyse all the deuyls of hell that are wythin hell or walkynge in thys world and bysy aboute the gates of hell, shall neuer be able to destroye the fayth which our sauyour hath in lyke wyse promysed agaynste the deuyll that went about to syfte it out of hys chyrche, sholde be preserued and kepte by the meane of hys owne specyall prayour. And therfore syth grammer in the laten tong is a thyng that may fayle/ & the trewe fayth is a thynge by the spyrite of god accordynge to Crystes promyse perpetually taught vnto hys chyrche, and therfore canne neuer fayle no not though all the bokes in the worlde sholde fayle: therfore hys symylytude of grammer lykened vnto fayth, is no more lyke then an apple to an oyster. Now as touchynge any such olde autentyke storyes as lie speketh of, whyche he sayth the chyrche had broughte a slepe, wherwyth he sayeth that Luther, and Tyndale, and Huyskyn, and Suynglius, confounde our lyes: I wolde very fayne here some one story, by Whyche he proueth that fastynge, and prayenge, and almoyse dedes, done in fayth, hope, and cheryte, be noughte worth, nor neuer shall haue [Ggi] rewarde in heuen. By what olde story proueth he that folke shold not pray for theyr frendes soules? By what old story wyll he shew vs, that crysten women be prestes and were wonte to synge masse? By what olde storye can he make yt good, that in the blessed sacrament is neyther fleshe nor bloode, but onely bare brede and wyne? And by what olde stories new founden out, can he now make vs -knowe, that freres or monkes professed, were of olde wonte to wedde nunnes, and well alowed and myche commended therin? We be very sure that in all these poyntes except the last, we shall fynde vnto these folke many olde autentyque storyes prouynge theyr heresyes false. Howe be yt as for the laste in dede, I fynde not as farre as I can remembre any olde storyes agaynste yt. For I suppose veryly that vntyll frere Luther now beganne of late/ there neuer was wreche so bestely, that euer durste for very shame attempte any such incestuouse maryage byfore/ but yf yt were onely Iulianus apostata, whyche fell forthwyth fro the fayth, and became a false paynym, and persecuted the crysten folke/ and Cryste quyt hym there after, and shortely sente shamfull deth, and the wonder of all the worlde vppon hym whyle the worlde standeth. Nowe come we then to the scrypture. For therin they make as though they reygned, <2we alledge>2 sayth Tyndale, <2for vs the scrypture>2 <2elder then any chyrche that was these.xiiii. yeres.>2 Fyrste when Tyndale here sayth we/ I wolde wytte of hym whyche we, we Lutheranys, or we Huyskyns, or we anabaptystes, or we Swynglianys, or of whyche rable of all the remanaunt of those hundred sectes, of whych neuer one agreeth wyth other, nor neuer a man wyth his felow/ but eche of them layeth the scrypture as well agaynste all the remanaunte of the sectes, as agaynste the catho- lyque chyrche. Bysydes this, where Tyndale saith that they alledge for theym the scrypture/ we saye that some thynges there are that god wyll haue byleued, were of his worde was delyuered vnto his chyrche wythout wrytynge, & in his chyrch wythout wrytynge preserued by the selfe same spyryte that endyghted the wrytynge. And this do We proue by olde au[Ggiv]tentyke bokes of olde holy doctours, and by the authoryte of the catholyque chyrche, and by the manyfolde myracles that styll contynue in onely the same chyrche, for the com- probacion of the doctryne of the same/ and besydes all this yet by playne scrypture to/ as I haue clerely proued vnto Tyndale in the laste chapyter of my thyrde boke. And for his purpose in that poynt he hath not one text of scripture, but suche as he may be a shamed so farre agaynst the ryght sence of theym to brynge them forth in place. And ouer this for his fynall confusyon in that poynte, ye haue your Selfe herde in my fourth boke, that the perpetuall vyrgynyte of oure ladye he hath hym selfe confessed, that who so euer here yt taughte muste byleue yt/ and yet is yt not proued by holy scrypture. And therfore must he nedys geue ouer that false feble heresye, whych he was wont to holde, that we be bounden to byleue nothynge but yf yt be wryten, & as Luther sayth euydently writen in scrypture. How be yt in this that he sayth he alledgeth scrypture/ he dothe but walke aboute in a maase. For well ye wote good reders, and so doth hym selfe to, that betwene these heretykcs and the chyrche, the questyon is not for the more parte in the wordes of the scrypture, but vppon the ryght sentence and vnderstandynge of the scripture. Now do we lay therin agaynste theym the olde auncyent doctours, whose exposycyons they contemne. For both for the reward of good workes, and for fastynge, and for the blessed sacrament, and for vowes of chastyte, yf they wolde stande vnto the exposycyons of the olde holy doctours vppon the scrypture/ they can neuer auoyde yt, but that the scryptures be clere for our parte agaynste them/ or ellys as I haue often sayde, let Tyndale tell vs some one of so many sayntes, as synnes the apostles tyme haue wryten vppon the scrypture byfore Luthers days, that expowned the scrypture in such wyse, that yt were by his exposycyon lawefull for frere to wedde a nunne. Therfore in conclusyon as concernynge the scrypture, Fyrste for suche poyntes as god hath taughte his chyrche wythout scrypture, as the artycle of the perpetuall vyrgynyte of our lady/ Tyndale can not teache his dyscyple that they allegge the scrypture/ for in scripture yt is not spoken of If he wyll saye that they be at lybertye and not bounde to byleue yt/ hym selfe hath in that artycle confessed the con[Ggi]trary byfore, as ye haue seen in my fourth boke. And also in all such other lyke, yf he byleue not ye chyrch/ he might as well not haue byleued saint Poule. If he say ys he could not but byleue saint Poule, bycause god wrought myracles for hym/ by the same reason muste he byleue the catholyke chyrche, for as myche as god contynually in euery good crysten countrey worketh myracles in yt for the catholyque chyrche, and wythdraweth his myracles from all chyrches of heretykes, and therby declareth that he dotlle those myracles not onely in yt but also for yt. And also Tyndale knewe not that god by the mouth of saynte Poule sayde so/ but bycause that the chyrch taught hym that god dyd so. If he saye yes, he felt yt by the wrytynge of goddes owne fynger in his herte: he muste consyder that I speke of the tyme before ys his hert was so holy, that god lyked to wryte wyth his owne fynger therin. For hym selfe sayth that the hystorycall fayth goth fyrste, & the felynge fayth cometh after. Therefore at the leste wyse in that tyme, why sholde he not as well byleue the chyrche when yt sayde, This thynge god by saynt Poule dyd tell, as when yt sayde, This thynge god by saynt Poule dyd wryte? And in lyke wyse for the bokes of the wryten wordes of scrypture, of whyche these heretykes receyue suche as lyke them, & refuse such as they lyste/ syth ys in the begynnynge sauynge for the catholyke chyrche, they neyther knew the tone nor the tother: why sholde they not byleue the same chyrche as well in the tone as the tother? And as concernynge the bokes of scrypture whych they them selfe receyue, syth the debate betwene the chyrch and these heretyques standeth not vppon the wordes but vppon the sentence/ yf Tyndale were a Turke borne (bycause he layeth so often the Turkes for his parte agaynste vs) they wolde and well they myghte reken hym but for a proude fole, yf he wold now begynne to constre them theyr Alcharon in great and necessary poyntes of theyr fayth, agaynste the consente and agrement of all the olde exposytours of theyr owne, and the bylyefe of all the people from the deth of Machomete vnto Tyndales byrth. If Tyndale wold now refute myne obieccion of ye Turkes and theyr Alcharon, wyth obiectynge in lyke wyse agaynst me the Iewes and the olde testament, whyche Crist [Ggiv] and his apostles taught theym to constre contrary to theyr olde vnderstandynge fro Moses dayes to theyr owne, and that the chyrch of Cryste doth euen the same styll/ and wyll therfore say that so maye hym selfe and his mayster Martyne, and Huyskyn, and Swinglius, teache the chyrche of Cryste in lykewyse to constre the scrypture of the new testament in necessary poyntes of fayth, contrary to the consent of all the olde exposytours and the comen fayth of all crysten nacyons, syth the tyme of Cristes deth and his blessed apostles vnto our owne dayes, as Criste and his apostles and the catholyque chyrche teache the Iewes to construe theyr own scrypture of the old testament, that they had had and taught so longe before: I answere Tyndale therunto lettynge passe other answeres for this time, that Cryst and his apostles and the catholyque chyrche euer synnes, haue proued and yet proue the authoryte of theyr doctryne to be aboue the Iewes in the con- strewynge of theyr owne scryptures delyuered by Moses and the Prophetes, by that yt hath pleased god for the testyfycacyon therof, to shewe by Cryste and his apostles and his catholyke chyrche, con- tynually to this day many meruelouse myracles, and wythdrawe theym all from the Iewes. Nowe lette Tyndale, and Luther, and Huyskyn, and Suynglius, do the lyke agaynste the catholyque chyrche/ & then let them come and teache yt to constre the scryp- ture of Cryste contrarye to all the olde. But tyll they haue the myr- acles among them and the catholyque chyrche leseth theym / yf Tyndale and hys fonde felowes wyll in the meane whyle go nowe aboute to teache the chyrche to constre the scrypture of Cryste, contrary to the contynuall fayth fro the apostles days vnto theyr owne, we may myche better call them proude presumptuous folys, then myght the Turkes for teachynge them a contrary construccyon of theyr Alcharon. Besydes this, his ensample of the Iewis wyll not helpe hym for a nother cause. For the olde exposytours of theyre scryptures bothe of Moses and of the prophetes, were vppon the parte of Cryste and his apostles, and consequently of the catholyque chyrche contynually agaynst the false scrybes and pharysyes, and the false doctoures Synnes, in suche necessary poyntes as they and we vary for / as appereth well by dyuers of theyr bokes, whych be dayly brought forth and allegged by men at this day lerned in theyr own [Hhi] tonge, and also by that substancyall well lerned man Lyre in hys exposycyon of the seconde psalme. Now yf Tyndale, & Luther, & Huiskyn, & Suinglius, can say ys the old holy doctours expositours vpon the scrypture dyd euer expoune it, so that by theyr exposycyon it myghte appere that the scrypture of Cryste approueth it for lawfull and not abhorreth it as a thynge abomynable, that freres sholde wedde nonnes: I wyll agre wyth Tyndale to gyue ouer all the mater. And thus ye se good reders, that as concernynge the scrypture which Tyndale here techeth his dyscyple to say, that they alledge elder then any chyrche thys.xiiii.C. yere, syth the debate and var1.- aunce ls not in the wordes wherin they and we bothe agre but in the sentence / wherin not only the comen contynued fayth of all chrysten nacyons, but also all the olde holy doctours & sayntes euer synnys the same scrypture wryten agreeth with the catholike chyrch agaynst hym: hys alledgyng of the scrypture is not worth a leke. And therfore is he now dreuen in all that euer we vary for, to leue both scrypture and all/ and when we aske wherfore he byleueth eyther thys or that, fayne muste he be to holde hym onely to hys felynge fayth/ and as Tyndale for a shote ancre techeth hym, say that he byleueth it onely bycause he feleth it wryten in hys harte, wythout any reasonable outwarde cause wherfore he fyrste byleued it wyth a story fayth, wherof as ye haue herde he can for hys heresyes proue vs none at all. Then syth he is comen to that poynt, that without any good outwarde cause, he muste defende hys fayth by hys onely felynge/ may not the Turkes and the Iewes bothe whome he layeth so sore agaynst vs, defende theyr faythes agaynste hym by the selfe sam? And when he can no ferther saye but that he feleth his to be trew, & eche of theyrs false/ may not eche of them answere hym that they fele theyrs to be trewe and hys false? And thus were gone the nsayle of saynt Peter, that we sholde geue a reason of our hope to euery man that wyl aske vs wherfore we hope so. And therfore leuynge saynt Peter hys way/ lette euery man folowe Tyndale and byleue what he lyste, and saye he feleth it wryten in hys owne harte wyth goddes owne hande. Men saye that he whyche hath bene onys at Hierusalem may lye by authoryte, bycause he shall be sure seldome [Hhiv] to mete any man that hath be there, by whome hys tale myghte be controlled. But Tyndale hath here to lye without controllement, wyth lesse labour sought out a shorter waye, and as hym selfe thynketh a surer to. For he goeth not onys out a dore therfore/ but saye what he lyste, and tell vs that he feleth it trewe, and fyndeth it wryten wythin hys own harte, by hym that can not wryte false, the spyryte of god hym selfe. And there he weneth hym selfe surer then yf he wente twyse to Hierusalem, and twyse as farre beyonde. For yet myghte he for all that fortune to fynde some man that hadde the same waye walked as farre as he, and there founden Tyndalys tale false. But when he sayeth that he feleth it wryten wythin hys owne harte/ he weneth hym selfe very sure. For he thynketh veryly ther canne no man loke in there to controlle hym and se whyther he lye or not. But yet as wyly as that inuencyon was/ Tyndale ys therin begyled/ and god hath gone beyonde hym, & made hys wyly foly founden out more playnely then of late appered and came to controllement the selfe same wyly foly in Rycharde webbe. Thys webbe whyle I was chauncelloure to the kynges hyghnesse, was by dyuers heretykes detectyd vnto me, that he had solde and vsed contynually to sell many of these heretykes bookes, forboden by the kynges gracyouse proclamacyon to be brought in to the realme/ and ferther I was by good and honeste men enfourmed, that in Brystowe where he then dwelled, there were of those pestylent bookes some throwen in the strete & lefte at mennys dores by nyght, that where they durste not offer theyr poysen to sell, they wolde of theyr cheryte poysen men for nought. Now beynge thus enformed of hym, and hauynge very sure know- lege that he was a greate medeler in suclie vngracyouse maters, and vtteryng of suche poysoned bokes / of whyche I hadde a doser delyuered into my handes by Michael Lobley, whom I hadde attached for lyke maters and whyche hadde receyued the same docer and bookes of webbe and afterwarde abiured hys heresyes: I gaue out a commyssyon to certayne good wurshypfull folke at Brystowe to attache Rycharde webbe. Wheruppon after suertyes there founden to appere byfore me, he went at large/ and commynge vppe to London the daye before he came [Hhi] at me, gate hym to saynte Catheryns to Robert Necyon, to whom he had vttered of hys bokes before/ and fell in a secrete agrement wyth hym what eche of them sholde saye therin when they were examyned therof And whan webbe thought he made the mater saufe and sure there/ then came he boldely to me. But now was he shrewdely bygyled/ for yet ere he came at me, Necton ferynge that webbe myghte happe to tell the treuth thoughte he wolde hym self be before hym, and sent me worde in greate haste of webbys beynge wyth hym, and of all the communycacyon that hadde ben bytwene theym to. And so webbe vnware therof beynge examyned on the morow, fyrst of dyuers other thynges answered on his othe many a false answere as I very well perceyued, sauynge the salue of hys remembraunce. For euer for the more parte, he referred and restraynyd all to hys remembraunce. And when he had all done, & saw that I found no fawte, nor nothynge obiected agaynst his answers/ but so vsed my selfe as though I byleued them, then he beganne to loke pytuously vpon me, and sayd that he had euer herd, that who so were in hys examynacyon trew & playne vnto me, had ben alwaye wont to fynde me good and fauorable/ and sayd that for that cause he had hym selfe shewed me all that euer was in hys stomake, as playnely as he knewe it hym selfe vpon hys fayth to hys remembraunce. Wherupon I shewed hym that yf I founde hym trew/ he sholde fynde me fauourable/ but I fered that his answerys were not all trew. Syrquod he yf ye fynde any one false, neuer be good lord vnto me, nor neuer trust me after whyle ye lyue. Then for a say I thought of hys so many lyes to assay hym with some one. And than I asked hym agayne of one syr Nycholas, to whom he had answered me before that he neuer sold any suche bookes but that the preste hadde he sayde offred hym suche bookes to sell but he wolde none bye/ and that he hadde not seene the preste thys halfe yere/ and the laste tyme he sawe hym was at Brystow. And whenne he styll abode therby vppon hys othe that thys was trewe, and ellys wolde I sholde neuer byleue hym in any thynge, nor shew hym any fauour: then I asked hym whyther Brystow were in Holborne, & whyther syx wekes were halfe a yere. And when he perceyued by those questyons that I knewe of a certayn assemble of theyrs in Holborne within.vi. wekes [Hhiv] before/ then he caste downe the hed and sayd he hadde forgote it. And whan I layed vnto hym hys periury/ he sayd he sware for no ferther then he remembred. But when he coulde not make me byleue that he hadde forgote it/ then downe he fell vppon hys marybonys, & pytuously prayed me to forgyue hym that one lye, in whych the deuyll he sayd ought hym a shame. For in good fayth syr there is not in all myn answers any one thynge vntrewe but that. well webbe quod I, in fayth yf that be trew, then wyll I wynke at thys one and lette it go for none. But nowe yf there be any mo lyes, call them agayne bytyme, and I wyll thenne take your fyrste tale for vntolde. Naye syr quod he and ye fynde any one more/ then neuer byleue me whyle ye lyue, but take all for lyes that euer I tell you, and put me to open shame, and make me a sample to all the false periured knauys in the realme. Well sayed I by lyklyhed the remanaunt be well tryed trewthes, ye wolde not ellys Webbe make so large an offer. No in fayth syr sayeth he, but yf I were sure that all were treue, I wolde not be so madde to saye as I do, and forsake your fauour so folyshly. Well quod I when saw ye Robert Necton then? Nowe by my soule syr as I haue shewed your lord- shyppe vppon myne othe, I sawe llym not thys halfe yere to my remembraunce. Well quod I remember your selfe well/ ye know perde where he dwelleth and he where you dwell/ and therfore remember whyther ye were wyth hym at saynt Catheryns or he wyth you at Brystow, or that ye met by chaunce to gyther any where ellys wythin these thre or foure monethes. Then he began to study a lytell and clawe hys hed and rubbe hys forhed and sayed, Nay in fayth to my remembraunce we mette not to gyther thys halfe yere/ and by my trouth I can not now call to mynde well where we met then neyther. Well webbe quod I let that passe then, and tell me an other thyng. Was yesterdaye halfe yere a go? And were ye not yesterday with hym at saynt Catheryns/ are ye not nowe shamefully forsworen? I wote well ye hadde not forgotten thys. Then downe wente the hed agayne into the bosome/ and yet he mombled bycause I sayed he was forsworen, as though I coulde not loke into hys breste to se whyther he remembred it or no. He wolde haue semed not to remember suche a poynt syn yesterdaye. But he made me therwyth remember a lyke mater of a man of myne done seuen yere afore / one [Hhi] Dauy a douche man whych had ben maryed in England, and saynge that llis wyfe was dede and beryed at worcester, ywo yere before, whyle he was in his countrey, and geuynge her myche prayse and often tellynge vs how sory he was when he came home and found her dede, and how heuely he had made his bytter prayours at her graue/ wente about whyle he wayted vpon me at Bruges in the kynges besynesse, to mary there an honeste wedowes doughter. And so happed it that euen vppon the day when they shold haue ben made handfaste & ensured to gether/ was I aduertysed fro London by my wyues letter, that Dauys wyfe was a lyue, and had ben at my house to seke hym. Wheruppon I called hym before me and other, and redde the letter to hym. Mary mayster quod he that letter sayth me thinke that my wyfe is a lyue. Ye beste quod I that she is. Mary quod he then I am well a payed, for she is a good woman. Ye quod I but why art thou such a noughty wreched man, that thou woldeste here wedde a nother? Dyddest not thou say she was dede? Yes mary quod he men of worcester told me so. Why quod I thou false beste, dydest not thou tell me and all my house that thou were at her graue thy selfe? Yes mary mayster quod he so I was/ but I could not loke in ye wote well. And as Dauy thoughte hym selfe saufely defended agaynste falsed, by that he coulde not loke into his wyues graue to se whether she were in yt or no/ so thought webbe hym selfe surely defended from any reprofe of periury, bycause I coulde not loke into his breste to se whether he remembred the counsayle so studyousely taken wyth Necton the daye byfore or no. And in lyke maner hopeth Tyndale hym self sure wyth his felynge fayth agaynst all redargucyon of his false heresyes, bycause he seeth that no man can loke into his owne breste but hym selfe, and fynde what he feleth writen there. But now as Dauy my man was bewrayed by my wyues letter, and as webbe was bewrayed by Robert Necton: so is Tyndale myche more clerely bewrayed and his counsayle vttered by almyghtye god hym selfe. For where as Tyndale wolde haue vs wene, that he feleth yt wryten in his owne herte wyth ys very hande of god, that freres may lawfully wedde nunnes, god hath him selfe so playnely told the contrary to all the olde holy sayntes this .xv. hundred [Hhiv] yere before, and by all the same space to all chrysten people besyde, that now there is no good man in all crystendome, but he feleth and fyndeth wryten by goddes hande in hys owne herte, that Tyndale feleth not that fowle fylthy heresye wryten in his herte by the hande of god. But yf he fele yt wryten there in dede as he sayth he dothe/ then he feleth yt scrybled and scraped in his herte by the croked clouen clawes of the deuyll. But yet yf the felyng of all good men wyll not answere Tyndale/ but that he feleth alway styll wryten with goddes owne hande in his owne holy herte, that the fayth of the catholyque chyrche is but an hystoricall fayth in any thynge that aught is, and that yt is full of heresyes besyde, and that therfore yt is the chyrch of heretyques, as he sayd in the ende of his goodly solucyon to the fyrste argument/ and that therfore they ys go out from it, be as he there sayth the very chyrche. And then syth all they be by hym the very chyrche, all they muste by his definycyon of the very chirch be nedes very electes, and haue by his owne definycyon al so the very felynge fayth wryten in theyr hertes by goddes owne hande: I demaunde and aske of Tyndale therfore how yt happeneth that his holy electes & faythfull felynge folke gone out fro the catholyque chyrche, fele not all one fayth/ but in great necessarye poyntes of fayth fele eche of them so contrarye fayth to other, that eche of theym feleth other, and eche of them calleth other false fumblynge heretykes/ and though the false shrewes conspyre and agree to gether agaynste the trew catholyke chyrche, yet theyre contrary sectes so vary betwene them selfe, that Lutheranys, Anabaptystes, Huyskyns, or Swynglianis wyth many sectes mo, wolde one byte of a nothers nose. And where as they complayne that heretyques be punyshed here/ yet one secte there punysheth and kylleth a nother among them selfe. And thus good reders ye may easely se, ys theyr felyng faythes so dissonaunt amonge them selfe, so contraryouse and repugnaunte, be not wryten in theyr hartes as Tyndale sayth by the hande of god, whose spyryte is tlle inspyrer of vnyte, concorde, and peace/ but is as I tolde you byfore, brethed and blowen into the brothels by the spyryt of dyscorde, debate, and dyssencyon the deuyll. And yet for the better perceyuynge of Tyndales doc[Hlli]tryne concernynge fayth: consyder ones agayne good reders ys he putteth two kyndes of fayth, an hystoricall fayth and a felyng faith, so that euery person that hath any faith, yt can not be by Tyndale but one of these two kyndes, eyther hystorycall fayth or felynge fayth. Now hystoricall fayth in the artycles of fayth, he putteth to be a byleuynge of a neces- cessary trewth, atteyned and goten by an outwarde meane, as by herynge the thynge preached or redynge yt wryten/ and this fayth he calleth faynte and feble, vnable eyther to laste and endure or to worke well, and for conclusyon the deuylles fayth. The tother kynde of fayth, that is to wyt the felyng fayth, e saytg is that fayth that god wryteth hym self in mannes herte, and therfore that is a felyng fayth. For he that hath yt in his herte of goddes owne wrytynge/ he hath yt so that yt can neuer be weshed oute, but must of necessite dwell and abyde with hym, and can neuer fayle but he shall fele yt in his herte/ and that felynge therof shall of necessyte make hym loue god euer, & euer worke well & neuer do dedely synne, though he do neuer so many deuylyshe dedes thorow the frute of synne remaynynge in his fleshe and brekynge oute at his frayle members. Now good reders let vs begyn at his storye fayth/ and syth he sayth it can neyther endure nor worke well: I wold wyt of hym whether yf the man dye forth wyth as sone as he hath yt, wyth a good purpose to be baptysed & to worke well yf he lyued therto, in suche mynde as many martyres dyed byfore theyr cristendome, shold he be saued wyth such hystorycall fayth wythout any other ferther felynge fayth or not. If he shall/ then may ys historycall fayth be suffycyent for saluacion/ ye & though yt be so faynt ys yt may fayle yet may it percase laste longe & not fayle/ & a man maye wyth yt worke in prayour, fastynge, and almouse dede, as well at the leste wyse as Cornelius Centurio the paynym dyd wythout yt. And then yf he were in suche place as he could not be baptysed for lakke of a mynyster, & so dyed wyth repentaunce of his synne and suche hystorycall fayth, & such workynge wythout any farther felynge sholde he not be saued? If Tyndale say yes/ then sayth he somwhat more for hystorycall fayth then will stande with his wordes byfore. Now yf he saye naye/ then syth the man can do no more for his parte, but byleue well and do well/ and the felynge fayth that Tyndale speketh of must be by god infounded, [Hhiv] towarde the getynge wherof the man can hym selfe sayth Tyndale no more do then can the chylde in bygetynge of his owne father: I trow Tyndale shall haue no man that well consydereth the great good nature of god, geue hym credence in that poynte. Now yf Tyndale saye that in all suche cases god dothe vnto hym that byleueth onys wyth a story fayth, infounde the felynge fayth thereto, except the man haue on his own parte some other let and impedyment of synne: then say I that therby confesseth he that the mannys endeuour inclynyng his vnderstandyng to the seruice of hystoricall fayth, hath yet at the lest wise somwhat more done in him toward the getynge of the felynge fayth: whyche onely fayth Tyndale calleth the ryght fayth, then the chyld can do to the getynge of his owne father. And so lyeth Tyndales tale in the duste. I say also that yt sholde seme farther by Tyndale, that the hystory- call fayth ones goten/ god shold not let of good congruence any more to infounde the felynge fayth into hym, not wythstandynge any other synnes into whyche the man is goynge, caryed forth in his frayltye by the rage of concupiscence reygnynge and rulyng his weke sykly rnembers, then he letteth to kepe styll wythout any faylynge at any tyme that felynge fayth in all them that onys haue yt, not wyth- Standyng all the horryble and abomynable dedes that euer they can do after. And so shold yt appere by this, that who so gete ones the hystorycall fayth, hath alwaye forthwith the felyng fayth also, though he were in the way towarde the doynge, ye or though he were doynge in dede neuer so great horryble myschyefe, so that he fall therto for frayltye. And then shall we lakke no felynge faythfull wreches, but ye shall fynde inough. I say also that yf to the hystoricall fayth goten by man, wyth all other good cyrcumstaunces that man by possybylyte may put vnto yt, god doth euer adde and infounde the felynge fayth hym selfe, supplyenge by the congruence of his owne goodnesse the imbecyllyte and lakke of power vppon the mannys parte towarde atteynynge of his owne saluacyon, beynge the great hyghe gyfte of god so farre aboue the proporcyon of mannys naturall state: then is I saye loste and destroyed the effecte of all Tyndales deuysyon betwene hystori-- call fayth and felynge fayth. For then [Iii] euery man that onys hath well the tone, is by & by sure of the tother/ wythout whiche hys good workes were toward the rewarde all wrought in vayne/ whiche thyng the lyberall goodnes of god coulde not of congruence for any lacke vpon hys owne parte suffre. And thus for ye tone halfe of his dyuysyon that is to wyt the hystory- call fayth, ye se now good reders to what poynt Tyndale is brought. And now consyder that I speke here of hystorycall fayth, as of the fayth in necessary poyntes of the bylyefe, atteyned & goten by man / by outward meanys onely, not that I thynke myn owne selfe ys hystoricall fayth so attayned without the inwarde wurkyng of god, but bycause Tyndale so putteth it, therfore I thus reasone it, to thentent ye sholde therby se what thynge the trouth wolde wurke vppon Tyndals vntrewe posycyon. I haue also forborne in all this whyle to speke any thyng of the sacrament of baptysme, bycause that Tyndale here in all hys mater of fayth bothe hystoricall fayth and felyng fayth, neuer maketh mencyon therof/ as though the sacrament had no parte in thys playe. By whyche obstynate sylence, men may as wel perceyue what he meneth, as though he spake it out. But yet to make hym somwhat saye therin/ we shall in the seconde part of hys dyuysyon, that is to wytte in the consyderynge of hys felynge fayth, a lytell appose hym therin. I aske hym therfore at such tyme as in the begynnynge there tourned togyther to the fayth two or thre thousande at onys, as dyd at the prechynge of saynt Peter as appereth in the seconde chapyter of the Actes, and theruppon were chrystened / what toke they by theyr baptysme? hadde they therby bysyde the hystorycall fayth, goten by the prech. ynge any new kynde of fayth, or new felyng of theyr formar fayth infounded by god in theyr baptysme or not? yf not then as towchynge fayth and bylyefe/ the hystorycall faith goten by that outward meane, is as good and as full as the fayth by god infounded inwardly. For I truste that Tyndale doth not thynke but that they hadde suche fayth as was able to serue them to saluacyon, all those that there truely turned, yf they had forthwyth vpon theyr baptysme deceaced. Now yf Tyndale take the tother parte, & answere me ys in the baptysme they had the felynge fayth infounded/ then [Iiiv] foloweth it I saye that euery man of age & dyscrecyon whiche dewly cometh to baptysme, hath the felynge fayth to/ syth that he hath by baptysme the ryghte fayth & the fayth suffycyent for saluacyon, whyche is by Tyndale none but the felynge fayth. And then be therby all they that come dewly to baptysme by Tyndals tale electes euerychone. And yet it semeth ferther by Tyndals tale & his mayster Martins added vnto it, ys yf he come to baptysme vndewly that is to wyt walk- yng outwarde/ yet in waye toward aduowtry, sacrylege, or murder, so he bringe with him bylyef, his baptysme perfyteth all. For by Tyndals grauntynge that god infoundeth suffycyent perfeccyon of fayth in the baptysme, and affermyng that after the perfayt fayth had, the hauer therof may do such horryble dedes & for all that neuer fayle in his perfayt felynge fayth: I canne not as I sayd before (consyd- eryng that by Tyndals tale such horryble dedes & such perfayt felynge fayth maye both abyde to gyther) perceyue or se why such dedes beyng yet in ye course towarde the doyng, sholde before let ys perfeccyon of fayth to be by god infounded/ any more then they shold afier let the same to be kepte & preserued, specyally syth Tyndals owne worshypfull mayster Marten Luther, sayth expressely that no chrysten man can be dampned but yf he wyll not byleue. For nothynge he sayth can dampne hym but onely vnbylyefe. For all other synnys he sayth be supped vp and swalowed all at onys in the bylyefe. And therfor who so come to baptysme with onely bare bylyef/ all his other synnes as Luther calleth them, or hys horryble dedes as Tindale calleth them, which he is by the frayltye of hys flesshe about for all his baptysme to do when lie cometh home from the fonte, can nothyng lette any perfeccyon to be by god infounded in hys baptysme. And then syth ys perfeccyon muste be by Tyndale eyther the felyng fayth, or els the felyng of the faythe whyle there is by hym none other faythe suffycyent: it foloweth that euery man whyche with hystory- call fayth cometh to baptisme, is sure of ys feling faith, how many synnys so euer he be aboute of feblenes & frayltye to comytte after. How be it yf Tindale wyll for all this make any styckyng I can not tell what, in them ys of age & discrecyon come vnto baptisme, & say there may be some lette vppon theyr parte, by reason that they may be about to synne wyllyngly and eyther of purpose or malyce: lette vs con[Iii]syder and waye well thys mater, in them that come to baptysme wythout any maner lette. When the chyldren are baptysed, whyche kynde of fayth haue they? The hystorycall fayth or the felynge fayth? For fayth haue they muste, or ellys they canne neuer stande in goddes fauoure and be saued / wytnessynge saynte Poule, that wythout fayth it is impossyble to please god. And therfore of trouth faith they haue. For though they come to the bap- tysme & be receyued to the font, in the fayth oftheyr fathers and of the hole chyrch that offereth them: yet with ye baptysme is there by god infounded into them his grace, the habyt of fayth hope & cheryte, wherwith they be made forth with perfayte membres of hys mystycall body the catholyke chyrch in erth, & therby made inheritable vnto ye blesse of heuen. Now aske I therfore Tyndale, which kynde of fayth is this? the hystorycall fayth or the felyng fayth? Not the hystoricall I trow. For ys chyldren haue not yet neyther redde nor herd many storyes. Wherfore it must nedes be by Tyndals own tale the felyng fayth. For mo kyndes of faith putteth he not but those twayne, nor none suffycyent for saluacyon but onely that same one / & suffycyent muste the fayth be that the chylde receyueth in the baptysme/ for ellys were the chylde neuer the rather saued, in case he dyed as many chyldren do in the chrysome cloth or in the cradle. Peraduenture Tindale gessyng now wher about I go wyll say that in the baptysme god infoundeth into some the felyng fayth, that is to say into hys onely electes, & in theyr hartes he writeth/ & that into some other he infoundeth it not and they be the reprobates/ & he wyll happely say that it is agred by doctours of the chyrch that god gyueth in ys baptysme not lyke grace to euery chylde. But vnto thys I answere, that though in the baptysme eyther at the more goodnes & more instant prayour of ys fathers or godfathers of the chylde, or for some other cause seene vnto his hyghe wysdom, he gyue some one greter grace then to some other yet gyueth he them all one kynde of grace and one kinde of fayth, though they dyffer in degrees/ & as very a man is he that hath lytle stature, as he that hath a great, & a Pygmey as a Geaunt. And Tyndale sayth hym selfe in his answere vnto my dyaloge, that our wurkes muste be as perfayt as the wurkes of Cryst hym selfe/ but fayth he sayth is suffycyent though it be neuer so lytell. [Iiiv] And besyde thys as I sayed before, god gyueth vnto euery chylde in the baptysme the habyte of that fayth that is suffycyent for saluacyon/ but that is sayth Tyndale none but the felynge fayth/ ergo by Tyndale the felynge fayth it is, wherof the habyt god infoundeth into euery chylde in the baptysme. But yet syth I haue proued that yf the chylde haue any fayth, he hath by Tyndals tale the felyng fayth: now wyll Tyndale per- aduenture saye that the habyte of fayth is no fayth, bycause it is not actuall fayth whych the chylde hath not, for lacke of the vse of reason/ for want wherof he can not thynke vppon nor actually con- sent vnto any poynte of faythe. But vnto thys I answere, that he maye by the same reason saye that the chylde hath no reasonable soule, bycause he can not thynke vpon any reasonynge/ and that therfore he lacketh the specyficall and kyndely dyfference that dyuydeth the kynde of man from all the kyndes of vnreasonable brutyshe bestes, and then is the chylde no more man then a calfe. Also yf the habituall fayth be no fayth/ then is the chyld for all the baptysme styll oute of the state of grace/ or ellys muste Tyndale say that saynt Poule sayed vntrew, in that he tolde the Hebrues that wythout fayth it is impossyble to please god. Besydes thys yf habytuall fayth be no fayth at all for lacke of actuall thynkynge theruppon/ than dyeth euery man out of the fayth that happeth to dye in hys slepe, had he neuer so good and greate actuall fayth when he went to bedde. For no man shall be saued for the fayth that he onys had, but for the fayth that he hath and in whyche he dyeth. Therfore the trouth is, that the habytu- all bylyefe is in the chylde, very bylyefe, though it be not actuall byleuyng and thynkynge vppon the fayth, as the habytuall reason is in the chylde very reason though it be not actuall reasonynge and makynge of syllogysmys/ and thenne it is as I saye no story fayth/ & therfore by Tyndals tale none other then very felynge fayth, syth he putteth no mo kyndes of fayth nor none other fayth for suffycyent, & goddes wurke is so perfyte that he infoundeth in the baptysme none insuffycyent fayth. How be it though thys be the trouth that the habytuall [Iii] fayth is very fayth, and infounded by god wyth the sacrament of baptysme into euery chyld, and so that euery chyld hath therby the felyng faith yf Tindale tell vs trew: yet to put out all argument, I shall shortely strayne Tyndale to graunt a farther thynge, or ellys to forsake his mayster. For ye shall vnderstande, that though the chyrche teacheth that the habytuail fayth is in the chyldren suffycyent/ yet cometh Tyndales mayster Martyn Luther, and in his boke that he maketh agaynst the Anabaptistes, he teacheth by a longe processe that the yonge chyldren haue infounded the very actuall fayth in dede. And therfore Tyndale that is his scoler, maye not denye but that crystened chyldren haue very fayth/ & then syth not hystorycall for lakke of redynge of storyes, they muste nedes haue by Tyndales tale the felynge fayth. Now ye wyll aske peraduenture what then? and wherfore I go aboute to proue vnto Tyndale that by his wordes the chyldren in theyr baptysme haue by god the felyng fayth infounded: Now shall I tell you that thynge in few wordes lo. I haue proued hym this poynt good reders, for bycause that vppon this muste yt clerely folowe by Tyndales tale magry Tyndales teth, that the pope, and the cardynales, and the whole clergye, and all the crysten people besyde, be the very playn electes of god, and shalbe saued euerychone as many as euer were crystened whyle they were children/ and ys they can neuer sinne dedely in all theyr liues though they do neuer so many horryble dedes, bycause as Tyndale sayth by the felynge fayth euery one that hath yt, is so borne of god and so hath his seed in hym, that he may well do horryble dedes, but he can neuer do dedely synne after. And then doth he mych a mysse to rayle and ieste vpon them ye wote well. Now can Tyndale neuer gete out of this net whyle he leueth, in whyche his folyshe false felynge fayth hath wrapped hym/ but yf he refuse not onely the doctryne of the catholyke chyrche of Cryste, but of his owne mayster Martyne antecryste also. And yet foloweth yt farther vppon Tyndales tale also, that syth all the catholyke chyrche haue by his tale the felynge fayth, and therfore are all electes/ and then he sayth that the electis hauyng the feling faith, be the very chyrch: [Iiiv] yt clerely foloweth I say by him, that ye pope, & cardinales, and the clergy, and ys whole crysten people, that is to say the knowen catholyque chyrche, is the very chyrche of Cryste / and that hym selfe and his felowes whyche he sayth are departed oute therof as fro the chyrch of heretyques, are not de- parted out, nor neuer can by this tale of his departe oute of yt in this worlde/ but euer hange styll theron as scabbes and bocchys vppon the bodye. And thus ye se good reders to what good purpose Tindale hath by his felynge fayth sodaynly brought his chyrche so clene to the con- trary of that he hath folyshely fumbled aboute all this whyle afore. And surely good chrysten reder, as for felynge fayth yf he meane therby faste and sure bylyefe wythoute any mystruste or doute of the contrary / this felynge fayth is in the folke of the catholyque chyrche and in none other. If he meane by the fayth wryten in mennes hartes, the faith wherof god worketh wyth mannys wyll into the consent, or the fayth by god infounded into mannys herte: this writynge of god in mannys harte is in the catholyque chyrch and no where elles. If he meane by his felynge fayth, any forther suertye of the poyntes that he byleueth, then onely an vndouted assent and adhesyon therunto: then is yt not fayth / but a nother kynde of reuelacion and an infusyon of knowledge beyond the kynde and nature of the fayth, & a thynge no lesse happy or blessed, but lesse merytoryouse then fayth. For god may where yt please hym of his mere grace wyth out any maner meryte, geue a creature ys lyke degre of glorye / and farre greater to, then other shall with theyr merite and hys grace attayne. But yet suche kynde of reuelacyon yf lie geue yt any man / he geueth yt onely to suche as are trew members of his catholyke chyrch, and not repugnaunt vnto the catholyque fayth. If he meane by his felyng faith any pleasure or comforte of hope, or any feruour and hete of charyte: this felyng is the felynge of tllose other two vertues/ not the felynge of the bare bylyef to whyche the secte of Luther geueth all the glory, and whyche may be hadde and abyde ferme and faste in hys owne nature wyth- oute eyther hope or charyte, as by the wordes of saynte Poule playne appereth. And this felynge both con- cernynge hope and charyte, is in the catholyke cllyrche and in none other secte. But what so euer hope those heretyques haue, or fe[Iii]lynge of any effeccyon/ yt is but Tyndales false truste in stede of crysten hope, and Tyndales false translated loue in stede of chrysten cheryte. And suche hopers and suche louers, wene they them selfe neuer so well in fauour, and neuer so great wyth god, nor neuer so sure of saluacyon, are yet no lesse bygyled then are the beggers that dreme they fynde great hepys of gold, and wax wonderouse gladde in theyr slepe wenynge them selfe awake. And so fynally any maner felyng that aught is/ ys good members of the catholyke chyrche hath, and no secte of all these heretykes. But where as Tyndale sayeth he feleth, that who so euer haue his felynge fayth may do many horryble dedes wythout any dedely synne/ and that who so euer synne onys wyllyngly, shall neuer be after forgeuen/ & that god hath no respect to any good workes of men, but onely to fayth alone/ and that the fre wyll of man can do no more in turnynge towarde god, then the hachet in tournynge toward the hewar/ nor that the man can do no more to the getyng of fayth, then the chyld to the bygetynge of his owne father/ & where he feleth ys shryfte is the inuencyon of the deuyll, and synne to do any good workes of penaunce, or to byleue that any good worke shall haue rewarde in heuen, or to do any honour vnto the blessed sacra- ment of the auter, any other then onely to byleue that yt is a memory- all of Crystes passyon, and nothynge ellys therin but only bare brede and wyne & starche in stede of brede/ and where his felyng fayth also feleth, that folke shold not care for holy dayes nor fastyng days, nor honour any sayntes, nor pray for theyr fathers soules, nor be bounde to kepe theyr vowes, but that freres may when they wyll lawfully wedde nunnes: all these felynges and many such other lyke, the catholyque chyrche feleth nothynge/ nor no more doth no man but such as Tyndale is, that wyll not fayle except he mende in tyme, for suche vnfaythfull felynge to fele the fyre of hell. And now good crysten reders, ye se to what ende Tyndales felynge fayth is come/ wyth whyche dyuyded from the hystorycall fayth, he sayth he knoweth now whyche ys the trew scrypture of god, bycause he feleth yt wryten in his herte by goddes owne hand/ and that he byleueth yt no lenger now for the teachyng of the catholyke chyrch, of whom he lerned yt fyrste wyth a story fayth. [Iiiv] But yet ye se good reders that in all this processe of his felynge fayth, he answereth nothynge to saynt Austayne. For excepte 1ie fele better then saynte Austayne felte, ellys whyle saynt Austayne con- fessed agaynste the Manacheys, that he wolde not byleue the gospell but for the authoryte of the chyrche/ and founde no faute in that saynge when he was after byshoppe at the tyme of his retractacyons, yt may bycome Tyndale well in that poynte to byleue the catholyque chyrche styll, as saynt Austayne dyd. And on ys tother syde, yf he say that hym self feleth a better fayth then saynte Austayne felt, in the selfe thynge that saynte Austayne dyd then byleue as well as Tyndale doth now: then dare I be bold to say that euery man and woman ys any felyng hath, can not fayle to fel Tindale for a proude fumblynge fole. And that he so is in dede/ ye shall yet the more fully fele by this. For yf yt were all trew that he sayde/ yet hath hys owne wordes double proued, that the knowen catholyque chyrche is the very chyrche of Cryste. Fyrst in that I haue vppon his owne wordes proued you, that yf he sayde trew, yt muste therof nedes folowe that all crysten people beyng baptysed in childhed, must haue the felyng fayth/ and then were they by his owne dyffynycyon the very chyrche. Secundly now consydre well this good reders, that as he sayth he byleueth not now no lenger whych is tlie trew scrypture, bycause the chyrch so teacheth hym, but bycause he feleth yt writcn in his herte by ys spyryte of god: so sayth he that in lyke wyse he byleueth not now no lenger any artycle of the fayth bycause he fyndeth yt in the bokes, but bycause he feleth yt wryten in hys owne harte by the spyryte of god. Now sayth Tindale not nay, but that as he came fyrst to the knowl- edge of the artycles of the fayth by the preaching or redynge of the bokes of the scrypture/ so came he forste to the knowledge whych was the scripture by the teachyng of the knowen catholyque chyrche. Now say I therfore, that grauntyng hyra to say well and trew in that he sayth he byleueth no lenger now the artycles of his fayth for the bokes of the scrypture, nor byleueth the scrypture to be the trew scrypture for the teachynge of the catholyke chyrche / yet foloweth yt for all that, that in lyke wyse as that by the preachynge or redynge wherof he fyrst [Kki] came to the byleuynge of the fayth, is the very trewe scrypture/ so is the knowen catholyke chyrche by whych he fyrst came into the byleuynge of the scrypture, and by whose techynge he toke it and perceyued it for holy wrytynge and for the very scrypture, the same chyrche is in lykewyse I saye the very trewe chyrche, syth that orygynally the scrypture is knowen as Tyndale hym selfe confesseth by none other chyrche/ as the fayth is orygynally lerned by none other scrypture. And thus good christen readers to make an ende of this boke/ here ye clerely se that I haue not onely reproued you clerely Tyndals false felynge fayth, and auoyded hys solucyon playnely, by whyche he wolde auoyde that argument that clerely proueth the catholyke knowen chyrche to be the very chyrche of Cryste, by that the treWe scrypture is knowen by the same chyrche and none other: but I haue also yet onys agayne clerely proued you the comon knowen catho- lyke chyrche to be the very chyrche of Cryste, by the very wordes of Tyndale hym selfe, wyth whyche he wolde proue the contrary. For thys argument by whyche the knowen catholyke chyrche is proued the very chyrch, whyche argument Tyndale hath all thys whyle bumbled about to soyle / abydeth in conclusyon so stronge and ineuytable, that in the laborynge to soyle it Tyndale hath double confermed it. And surely thys is no meruayle. For where as all heretykes very well perceyue, that by the playne promyses of our sauyour hym selfe clerely contayned in the gospell, hys chyrche can neuer be brought into any dampnable errour / and that yf it myghte, there were no suerty neyther of doctryne nor of the scrypture selfe, & on the tother syde yf they sholde graunte the doctryne of the catholyke chyrche to be trewe, then were all theyr heresyes drowned: for thys cause lo beynge dreuen to con- fesse that the chyrche can not fall into dampnable errour, they be dreuen to seke aboute for some other chyrche, bycause the sure treuth of the chyrch dampneth & destroyeth theyr heresyes. And yet was there neuer any of them but that in goynge frome the knowen catholyke chyrche to seke out another, he walked so wyld about, that who so loked on and byhelde hym, wolde saye the man were blynde/ and eche walketh a dyuerse waye, & assygneth a dyuerse chyrche, neuer one lyke another. [Kkiv] And for ensample ye maye consyder twayne/ Tyndale for one, whose chyrche ye haue harde all redy. The secunde shall be frere Barons, of whose chyrche I wyll som What shewe you before I fynysshe thys worke. Thus endetli the.vii. boke.  The.viii. boke, in whyche is confuted doctour Barons Chyrche. FRERE Barons maketh the tytle of hys processe concernynge the chyrch in thys wyse. <2What is holy chyrche, and who be therof and wherby>2 <2men maye knowe her.>2 After this tytle of hys processe, he begynneth to playe Tyndalys parte/ fyrste in flyttynge from the poynt, that is to wyt from the whole catholyke chyrche vnto the clergye alone, and after in lyke maner of raylyng. And surely notwithstandynge that a man myghte wene ys Tyndale were in suche fonde scoffynge perelesse: yet doth frere Barons as farre outrunne hym in raylynge, as he draggeth behynd hym in reasonyng/ wherin wyth Tyndale Barons can hold no fote, as down right as Tindale halteth therin. Frere Barons lashethe out agaynste theym, pryde and pompe, and all theyr lyues spent in whoredome/ as though there were not a good preste in all the catholyke chyrche, tyll they leue the catholyke fayth and fall to heresyes/ for than can they not be but honest though they wold/ for than maye freres wedde whores and call them wyues. But yet he iesteth on theym ferther, bycause they were crownys and longe gownes, and that bysshoppes were whyte rochettes. And when he hath lykened them to bullys, assys, and apys, and the rochettes to smockes: then he lyketh mych hys mery mockes, and fareth as he were from a frere waxen a fydeler, and wolde at a tauerne go gete hym a peny for a fytte of myrth. How be it as for crownys, and gownys, and rochettes, [Kki] and vycyouse lyuynge, all these thynges he but playeth & sporteth wyth. But the thynges whyche he layeth ernestly to theyr charge, is that they gyue credence vnto the olde holy doctours of Chrystes chyrche, in the interpretacion of Chrystes worde/ and that they medle to se any good rule/ and that they vowe chastyte/ and for that they teche not the people that fayth alone is suffycyent, but that folke be bounden to do good wurkes and penaunce for theyr euyll yf they wyll be saued/ and bycause they lette not heretykes alone but per- secute them/ & bycause they be not persecuted them selfe. For these causes lo he sayth they be as farre vnlyke vnto the chyrche, as god is to the deuyll. But he forgeteth in the meane whyle, how many good vertuouse prestes and relygyouse peple be put out of theyr places and spoyled of theyr lyuyng, and beten and sent out a beggynge, whyle here- tykes and apostatas wyth theyr wedded harlottes in stede of theyr vowed chastyte, kepe theyr open auowde whoredome, and mayn- teyne theyr incestuose lechery, wyth the lyuynge that holy folke haue dedycate vnto god, for sustenaunce of suche as sholde serue god in spyrytuall clennesse & vowed chastyte. He knoweth wel inough I warraunt you that the clergy can neuer lacke persecucyon, where heretykes maye grow/ nor soone after the temporaltye neyther, as it hath hytherto proued in euery suche countrey yet. How be it as for hys tauntes, hys mockes, hys mowys, hys iestynge, and hys raylynge/ I shall passe ouer & cumber you not mych ther- wyth, syth ys suche as delyte therin and loue to fede them selfe ther- upon, be not of so great honesty that I greately longe to content them / and those that are good and vertuouse can take no great pleasure I suppose, to here a rybawdouse raylynge of a lewde sedycyouse heretyke, vppon all the clergye of chrystendome that wyll be none heretykes, and call them bullys, apys, and assys, and abomyn- able harlottes and deuyls/ namely syth no good man dowteth, but though there be many amonge the clergye full badde, as hard it were to haue it otherwyse among so mayne a multytude, whyle Chrystes owne onely twelue were not wythout a traytour/ yet are there agayne therin many ryght vertuouse folke, and suche as the whole world bysyde fareth the better for theyr holy lyuynge and theyr deuoute prayour. [Kkiv] And one thynge am I sure also, that among those with whom this man is moost angry, and for whome the more angry wyth all the remanaunt, that is to wyt those before whome he was abiured of his heresyes, and is now periured by relapse into them all agayne / whyche when he wold here haue defended synnys that tyme, before one of ys same iudges, hauynge lycence at lybertye wythout perell to saye what he wolde, was therin confuted so clerely & so playnly, that all hys euangelycall bretherne of hys hundred sectes, wolde haue ben ashamed to se it amonge those hys iudges: I saye that there were some suche, as yf Barns sholde in specyall laye to theyr charge, the vicyouse lyuynge that he layeth to them in hys blasphemouse booke amonge all the clergye in generall/ all honest englishmen that know them wold answere hartely for them, and tell hym that he falsely bylyeth them. And I veryly thynke, that some one of them hath more honesty and clennesse of lyuyng, and more very vertue in hym / then haue all the heretykes from the hyther ende of Englande to the ferther ende of Almayne. And therfore syth it is no newe thynge a madde wylde bull to runne out at rouers, and push at euery man that he meteth/ nor a rude asse to make hys rude roryng/ nor a fond ape to make mockes and mowys/ nor an abomynable hore to brawle, chyde, and scolde/ nor no neweltye the deuyll nor the deuyls lymme to be false and lye:. I wyll as I say leue of thys felowes folyshe apyshnesse, and all his asseheded exclamacyons, and all hys bysy bullynge, and all hys abominable harlotrye, and all hys deuelysshe lyes whych he spetteth and speweth out vppon honeste men/ and I shall go to the mater selfe/ and concernynge the purpose, I shall fyrst rcherse you good reders hys owne very wordes, by whych ye shall se what he calleth the chyrche/ & after shall I shewe you how falsely and how folysshely both he handeleth hym selfe therin. Lo good readers these are hys owne wordes. Barons. Thys worde ecclesia, bothe in the new testament and the olde, is taken oftentymes for the hole congregacyon, and the hole multytude of the people bothe good and bad/ as it is in the boke of Numeri: why haue you broughte the congregacyon or chyrche of god into wyldernes? Also in another place: The kynge turned hys face and blessed the hole congregacyon or chyrche of Israell, and all the chyrche of Israell stode. Lykewyse in the new testament saynt Paule to the Corinthians: I haue sente vnto you Tymothe, the which [Kki] shall lerne you my wayes that be in Chryste Iesu, as I do lerne euery where in all congregacyons. Also in a nother place: Do you dyspyse the congregacyon of god, and shame theym that haue noy? In all these places and in many mo, is yt open that this greke worde ecclesia is taken for the hole congregacyon both of good and bad. Wherfore this ys not the chyrche that we wyll greatly speke of. More. But this is the chyrche good reders, that he must speke of For this is in erthe ys very chyrch of god, though it haue bad folke in yt among the good / as testyfye not onely the paraboles of Chryste, where he lykeneth the kyngdome of god vnto the net, that oute of the see gathereth & bryngeth to lande both good fyshe and badde, as the chyrch here out this whole worlde gathered fyrste, and yet doth good men and badde both, and shall whyle yt lasteth in erth, but also by the selfe same place that frere Barons bryngeth in here hym selfe, in whych the Apostle writyng to the Corinthies, calleth the chyrche in whyche were in dede and so frere Barons confesseth both good people and badde, saynte Poule I saye calleth the chyrche of god / sayeng, despyse you the chyrche of god, and make theym ashamed that haue not of theyr own? And therfore then shold frere Barons bere hym selfe so hygh, that he shold for them that are badde despyse this chyrche, in whyche ther be bysyde the badde many men very good, and whych chyrche saynt Poule therfore despysed not, but called yt the chyrche of god, and rebuked such as dyd despyse yt as frere Barons doth here, that setteth it a syde for nought as the chyrche that he wyll not he sayeth greatly vouchsaufe to speke of And wherefore good syr I pray you? To this questyon Barons answereth and sayth. Barons. For in thys chyrche are there Iewes and Sarasenys, murtherers and theuys, baudes and harlottes, though we knowe them not. More. As for Iewes and Sarasenys, there in frere Barons ouer seeth hym selfe shamefully/ and sheweth hym selfe not to perceyue and vnder- stande the selfe same places of scrypture, that hym selfe bryngeth forth for his purpose. For neyther in the place of Numery were the paynyms any parte of the chyrche whyche the kynge there blessed/ but as the very playne texte there telleth, whyche Barons hath hym self rehersed, onely the chyrche of Israell/ nor also the chyrche [Kkiv] whyche saynte Poule wrote vnto, amonge the Corynthies was not the paynyms, wherof was plenty in ys towne / nor the Iews neyther, wherof there were happely some at that tyme in that cytye/ but the Crysten people onely, that were in that parte gathered to gether into one chyrch, a member and parte of the whole catholyke chyrche gathered in lyke wyse in dyuerse other places of the worlde. For them onely doth saynt Poule there call the chyrch. For hym selfe sayth, Of those that be out of the chyrch what haue we to do? And therfore this is false, ys this word <2ecclesia>2 that is to say chirch in englysh, doth as frere Barons sayth signifye in those places of scryp- ture whych hym self alledgeth, the congregacyon and flokke of as well paynyms as Israelytes, & of Iewes and Sarasenes, as crysten folke. But yet wyll frere Barons say, that though Iewes and Sarasenis be not of this chyrch/ yet in this chirch are there murderers & theues, & whores, and baudes, though they be not knowen. And therfore this is not the chyrch that he wyll greatly vouchesaufe to speke of 0 holy pharasye, in whose proude harte the pore publycanes be so great abomynacyon, that he not onely lysteth not any thynge to regarde theym, but also for theyr sakes setteth at nought the whole company where many vertues people are among them/ and fareth by the chyrche of Cryst as dyd hys felowes the olde pharysees wyth our sauyoure hym selfe, whome they blas- Math. phemed and sayde, why eateth he wyth publycanes and synners? But yet muste this great godly man, this hygh and holy heretyque, holde hym self content to knowledge at length this same comen knowen catholyque chyrch to be the very chyrch when he hath all done/ whyle as hym self hath here rehersed you, this comen chyrche of good and badde is the chyrche that saynte Poule hym selfe calleth the chyrche of god. Whyche one place of saynte Poule of Barons owne bryngynge forth, destroyeth vtterly Barons whole purpose, but yf the chyrch of god be not the chyrch of Cryste, and excepte Cryste be not god. It is also to me great meruyle, wherfore frere Barons sholde so hyghly dysdayne the knowen catholyque chyrch, bycause there be murderers and theuys, and whores and baudes therin, whych he sayth men know not/ whyle there is neyther Luthers chyrche, nor Huyskyns chyrche, nor [Kki] Swynglius chyrch, but that they haue of all these people plentye, suche as be knowen well inough. And yet those chyrches he neyther iesteth nor rayleth vpon, as he doth vppon the catholyke chyrche/ out of whych all these chyrches are departed and caste oute/ into some of whyche chyrches Barons is hym selfe come now. And as for whores and baudes/ all the worlde knoweth I suppose that the hed maysters the archeheretykes of all theyr sectes, are the chyefe whore maysters beynge prestes, munkes, and freres, that haue professed chastyte/ and yet make harlottes of professed nunnes vnder the name of wyues, and auow theyr lechery boldely, and haue whole townes open baudes vnto theyr bestely lechery. And syth frere Barons dysdayneth not those chyrches, but rather dothe hym selfe alow theyr whoredome and bauderye: I se not why the good man shold so solemnely loke ouer the catholike chyrch, and set yt at so lyghte for any whores and baudes that be therin. Of all whome, but yf they be bysyde theyre whoredome and baudry bycomen euangely- call systers of these heretycall sectys/ there is I truste not one, but they knowledge theyre suche lyuynge for synfull, & often haue remorse therof and many of them amende/ where as those arche- heretyques frere Luther, and frere Huyskyn, wyth whose whore- dome & baudry frere Barons fyndeth no faute, do not onely nothynge repente yt, but also lyke abomynable bestes boste yt. How be yt I am gladde that frere Barons is waxen so holy now, that he can not abyde yt to haue the knowen catholyque chyrche called holy chyrch, bycause there be not only good folke in yt, but also euyll folke to/ and that he wyll therfore fynde vs oute a nother chyrche here in erthe, that shall be onely good folke/ and proue vs that that is the very chyrche, and that the knowen catholyque chyrche is not the very chyrche, nor worthy that he sholde speke of Marke well good reders this poynte, that the chyrche whyche Barons muste brynge vs, muste be a chyrche that hath there in neyther murderer nor thefe, nor whore, nor baude/ and kepe this poynte well in remembraunce for the whyle, and then shall ye se afterwarde at length howe well he wyll kepe his promyse, whereof he wyll for a while make vs a proude face. For lo thus he des chyrche. [Kkiv] But there is a nother chyrche of the whyche saynte paule speketh, you men loue your wyues as Cryste hath loued the chyrche, and hath gyuen hym self for her that he myght santyfye her, and clense her in the founteyne of water thorow the worde of lyfe to make her to hym selfe a gloryouse chyrche wyth out spotte or wrynkyll or any suche thynge, but that she myght be holy and wythout blame. Here haue you tlle very trew cllyrche of Crysye, that is so pure and so clene wythout spot. But where by is she pure and clene? not by her owne merytes, nor by her owne myght, not by exteryour araye, not by golde nor syluer nor yet by precyouse stones, neyther by myters nor crossestaues, nor by Pyllers nor Polaxes / but where by then ? by Chryste onely whych hath geuen hym self for that entent that he wolde make her clene. And therfore sayth saynt Paule: He gaue hym selfe that he myght santyfye her, that he myght clense her and make her to hym selfe a gloryouse chyrche. Also in a nother place: you are washed, you are sanctyfyed, you are iustyfyed in the name of Iesus Crysye and in the spyryt of god. Se my lordes how the chyrche is washed by Cryste and by his holy spyryte/ and not by your blessynges, noy by your spyrytuall ornamentes, nor by your spyryyuall holy. water/ for these thynges can not helpe the holy chyrche/ for she is holy in spyryte and not in outwarde hypocrysye/ she is also clensed by Crystes blessed blood, and not by outewarde dysgysynges. This doth saynte Austayne well proue sayenge: Of Crysye is the chyrche made fayre/ fyrste was she fylthy in synnes/ after warde by pardon and by grace was she made fayre &c. Here saynt Austayn sayth that Cryste hath made his chyrch fayre, and that by his grace and his pardon / and not by your pardons, nor by your grace/ for this chyrche standeth by Crystes eleccyon and not by youres. And yf Cryste haue not washed you and chosen you, then be you none of this chyrche, though you ryde wyth a thousande spyrytuall horses, and haue all the spyrytuall tokens in erth. For and yf the sonne of god haue delyuered you, then are you trewly delyuered / ye can not make by all your powre and holynes, that we shall always fynde good ale or wyne where there hangeth out a grene sygne. And will you with your spyrytuall sygnes and tokens, make the chyrch of god to folowe you/ or by them assygne oute where the chyrche shalbe? nay nay my lordes yt wyll not be: but they that byleue that Crist hath washed them from theyr synnes, and styk faste vnto his merytes and to the promyse made to them in hym only/ they be the chyrch of god, and so pure and so clene that it shall not be lawfull, no not for peter to saye that they be vnclene: but where they be Iew or greke, kynge or subiecte, carter or cardynall, bucher or byshoppe, tancardberer or cannelraker, fre or bounde, fryer or fydler, munke or myller, yf they byleue in Crystes worde, and styke faste to hys blessed promyses, and truste only in the merytes of his blessed blood, they be the holy chyrche of god, ye and the very trew chyrche afore god/ and you wyth all your spyrytuall tokens, [Lli] and wyth all your exteryour clennesse, remayne in your fylthynes of synne / from the whyche all your blessynges, all your holynesse, can not clense you nor brynge you into thys chyrche: boste, crake, blaste, blesse, curse tyll your holy eyes starte out of your hed, it wyll not helpe you/ for Chryste chouseth hys chyrche at his iudgement and not at yours. The holy goste is free, and inspyreth where he wyll. He wyll neyther be bounden to pope nor cardynall, archbyshoppe nor byshoppe, abbot nor pryour, deken nor archdeken, parson nor vyckar, to nunne nor frere. Breuely come all the hole rabbyll of you together that call your self the holy chyrche (and exclude all other) ye and take sonne, mone, and starrys to helpe you, wyth all the frendes you haue in heuen and erth / and yet shall you not be of holy chyrche, excepte that you haue the spyryte of Cryste, and be washed in his blessed blowde. For the holy chyrche of Cryste is nothynge ellys, but that congregacyon that is sanctifyed in spyryte, redemyd with Crystes bloude, and stycketh faste and sure alonely to the promysses that be made therin. More. Lo good chrysten readers, here haue ye redde his whole processe to gether, wherin he dyffyneth and descrybeth hys chyrche, wyth all hys iestynge corolaryes intermedeled bytwene. In whyche when he hath all done, except such thynges as the doctryne of the catholyke chyrche teacheth hym, he hath not of hys owne one trewe worde. And the tother are brought in to no purpose, but onely to plante in coueretely some heresyes bytwene. And as for the places of scrypture that he bryngeth forthe, and of saynte Austayne also/ there is not of them all any one that doth any thyng proue hys purpose, that is to saye that onely suche clene pure people as he speketh of be the very chyrche here in erth/ but the same places of scrypture and of saynt Austayne as ye shall se playnely proued, do make playne agaynste hym/ and clerely do they declare that the very chyrche of Cryste here in erthe, is the knowen catholyke chyrche of good and badde bothe to gyther. For fyrste as towchynge hys goodly doctryne interlaced here and there by the waye, that all maner of people be he pope or pedeler, kynge or cobler, carter or cardynall, bucher or bysshop, munke or myller, frere or fydeler, or any of the remanaunt that thys fonde frere fydeleth forth here by letters, after the rude rymelesse runnyng of a scottyshe ieste, be wesshed and made clene of theyr synnys by god, & hys grace, & hys perdon, and hys precyouse bloude, and not by theyr owne merytes, nor theyr owne myghte, nor by [Lliv] exteryour araye, nor by gold and syluer, nor by myters nor crosse staues, nor 2o by bysshoppes blessynges, nor by theyr spyrytuall ornamentes, nor by theyr spyrituall holy water: to what purpose concernynge the mater serueth all thys processe? but to shewe hys ryall rethoryke/ and to contende wyth Tyndale in wytlesse eloquence, that hath a lyke lewd ieste or twayne in hys bokes lasshed out by letter, whyche frere Barons here fondely foloweth and enforceth hym self to excede. For ellys hym selfe knoweth well that the catholyke chyrche whose doctryne he nowe depraueth, taughte hym that lesson as myche as is trewe therof, though they gaue it hym not in a scottyshe ieste by letter. For that no man can be clensed of hys synnes but by ys myghty mercy of god, and by the merytes of Crystes blessed passyon: thys poynt thys frere lerned of the knowen catholyke chyrche whyche he nowe despyseth. But the heresyes whyche he couertly ioyneth here therwyth/ those lyes lo hath he lerned of the deuyll synnys he ranne oute of the chyrche. For he wolde make as though the fre wyll of man whyche he meneth here vnder the name of mannes owne myghte, dyd neuer no thynge wurke at all towarde the obtaynynge of perdon and remyssyon of synne. And that he thus meneth / appereth playnely by the heresye of his mayster Marten Luther, and by hys owne frantyke processe also made agaynst fre wyll. And that ye deuyll hath taught hym thys lye appereth playnely by many a playne place of scrypture. As where our lorde sayeth by the mouth of hys holy prophete Esaye: Be ye wesshed, be clene, and take a waye out of my syghte the euyll of your thoughtes. And by the mouth also of the prophete Ezechyell: Caste of frome you all your synnes in whyche ye haue transgressed, and make you a new harte and a new spyryte/ and why wylte thou dye o thou howse of Israell? For I wyll not haue the death of hym that dyeth sayth your lorde god, but returne ye and lyue. Lykewyse sayth the prophete Dauyd in the.xxxiii. psalme: Declyne frome euyll and do good. And agayne in the same psalme: Kepe thy tounge frome euyll speche, and lette thy lyppes speke no gyle. And Sachary the prophete sayeth thus: Turne to me sayth the lord god of hoostes, and I wyll turne to you sayeth the lorde god of hoostes. It is wryten also in an other place: How greate is the [Lli] mercy of our lorde, and how great is hys pardon towarde those that turne them selfe to hym. More ouer god sayth by the mouth of saynte Peter: God hath fyrste vnto you raysed vp hys sonne, and hath sent hym to blesse you that euery man sholde turne hym selfe backe from his wyckednesse. Saynt Poule wryteth also to the Colosseyes in this wyse:. Mortefye and slee your membres whych are on the erth. And to the Phylippyans: wyth feare and tremblyng worke your owne saluacyon. And tha- postle saynt Iamys sayth: Drawe ye nere to god and he wyll drawe nere to you / make clene your handes o ye synners, & pourge your hartes o ye that are double of mynde. More ouer where he sayth men be not wesshed by theyr owne merytes / the knowen catholyke chyrche taught hym all truely taken and well vnderstanden, that is to saye that no man can meryte the fyrste grace. For towarde heuyn man can do no thynge but yf he be preuented by grace. For as Chryste sayeth: no man cometh to me but yf my father drawe hym / nor no meryte of man can be suffycyent to deserue heuen, but the greatenesse of that rewarde cometh of goddes mere lyberall goodnes, that lyst to gyue so great a pryce for so symple a thyng. For as saynt Poule sayth, the passyons of thys lyfe be not wurthy the glory that is to come that shalbe shewed in vs. And the catholyke chyrche techeth that men sholde therfore putte no proude truste in theyr merytes, but stande in fere oftheyr vnperfyte wurkynge, mengled alwaye for the more parte wyth vnperfeccyon and spottes/ syth that all ys iustyce of man is as the scrypture sayth lyke a fowle spotted clowte, and that the sterrys are not clene in the syghte of god. And therfore the chyrche techeth euery man to say as Chryst sayth in the gospell, that do we neuer so well, we haue done but oure dutye/ and so gyue the thanke of all the rewarde vnto goddes mere lyberall goodnesse/ of whose gyfte & grace we haue taken all the thynges that we wurke any good wythall, myghte, wytte, faculte, fre wyll, body, soule, and all. For as saynt Poule sayth, what haste thou that thou haste not receyued? And then yf thou haste receyued/ what gloryest thou as though thou haddeste not receyued it? These thynges lo doth the knowen catholyke chyrche teche, and in thys wyse do they interprete and declare the [Lliv] scryptures. And therfore yf frere Barons hadde here ment none other thynge / he myghte very well haue spared mych of hys gaye golden processe, beynge as it is impertynente to the pryncypall purpose. But he meneth therin that man maye towarde remyssyon meryte no thynge at all/ nor that no merytes of man shall haue any rewarde in heuen, but that all to gether standeth in fayth alone/ whyche lyes he hath as I sayed lerned of the deuyll alone. And that he thus meaneth hym selfe well declareth by his madde poysened processe, that all onely fayth iustifyeth before god. And that the deuyll hath taught it hym appereth playnely, by that the spyryte of god hath inspyred the con- trary doctryne into hys holy apostle Paule, whyche wryteth vnto the Romaynes, Not the herers of the lawe are iuste before god, but the doers of the lawe shallbe iustyfyed. And our sauyour hym self sayth in ys gospell of saynt Luke: Happy be they that here the worde of god and kepe it. And agayne also by the mouth of the hol and blessed a ostle sa nte Iamys: be ye doers of the worde, and not hearers onely deceauyng your selfe. Now where he sayth that all the blessynges and all the holy water, can not clense a man nor gyue hym remyssyon: thys lerned he of the knowen catholyke chyrche, as farre forth as it is trewe. For none of all these neyther the men nor the thynges can do any good of them selfe as of them selfe. For so sayth saynt Poule: we be not suffycient of our selfe as of oure selfe. For theffecte and effycacy of all these thynges, cometh of god. But frere Barons meneth that there is in all the blessynges, and all the holy water, & holy brede, and so forth in all the ceremonyes, and almoste all ys sacramentes vsed in the knowen catholyke chyrche, none effycacye at all. Whych lye the deuyll and the deuyls lymmes haue taught hym. For that he so meneth we knowe by hys maysters and hys felowes both, the archeretykes and bretherne of hys many sundry sectes, whyche call the sacramentes but onely bare sygnes and tokens / and by many places also of hys owne peuysshe pro- cesses, in whyche he maketh mockes and mowes at the holy rytes and cerymonies, and many of the sacramentes vsed in the catholyke chyrche. And that the deuyll and the deuyls lymmes haue taught it hym appereth bothe by the catholyke fayth of all chrysten peple thys.xv.C. yere, & by ys playn wordes of holy scripture also. [Lli] For/ that holy brede is farre a nother maner thynge then Barons taketh yt for, appereth very well by the wordes of saynte Paule, where he sayth, euery creature of god is good/ and nothynge ought to be reiected and refused, that is receyued wyth thankes geuyn. For yt is sanctyfyed by the worde of god and prayour. And as concernynge the holy sacramentes/ of anelyng thus writeth the blessed apostle saint Iames in his epistle: Is there any man sycke amonge you? let hym sende for the prestes of the chyrche, and let theym pray for hym, and lete them anoynt hym wyth the oyle in the name of our lorde/ & the prayour of faith shall saue the syk person, & our lord shall rayse hym vp/ & yf he be in synnys they shall be forgeuen hym. And of confessyon he writeth in the same pystle immediatly after in this wise: Confesse ye your sinnes one to a nother, and pray ye one for a nother that ye may be healed. For myche is the feruent prayour worth of a ryghteouse man. For the sacrament of confyrmacyon, yt is wryten in the Actes of thapostles: then they, that is to wyt saynt Peter and saynt Iohan, layed theyr handes vppon them, and they receyued the holy goost. Moreouer for the sacrament of matrymony, we haue the playne and open wordes of saynte Poule to the Ephesies: This is a gret sacrament/ but I say in Cryste and in the chyrch And as for holy orders, that at the geuynge of them grace is infounded into the persones that receyue them/ the fyrst pystle to Timothe and ys second both, do playnely proue. In the fyrste pystle, saynte Poule sayth thus: dyspyse not the grace which is in the, that was geuen vnto the by prophecye, wyth the layeng of the handes of presthed vppon the. And in the seconde pystle affyrmynge the same/ he sayth in this wyse: I Warne the to resuscytate and sterre vppe the grace, that is in the by the laynge of my handes vppon the. Now that I haue good readers opened vnto you the couert purpose of Barons deuelyshe doctryne, planted in amonge his mokkes and his iestes/ & that there is nothyng well and trewly sayd in all his pro- cesse, but that he hath lerned of the playn comen teachyng of the knowen catholyke chyrche: let vs examyne and consydre now the chyrche that he dyffyneth vs/ and then se whyther the authoritees that he alledgeth here of saynt Poule and saynte Austayne do proue vs the chyrche that he promyseth. [Lliv] The very trew chyrche is sayth he, pure and clene with out spot or wryncle. Also the very chyrche is of goddes eleccyon. Also they that byleue that Chryste hath weshed theym from theyr synnes, and stykke faste vnto his merytes and to the promyses made to theym in hym/ onely they be the chyrche of god, and so pure and so clene, that it shall not be lawfull, no not for saynt Peter to say that they be vnclene. Also the holy chyrche of Cryste is nothynge elles, but that congregacyon that is sanctyfyed in spyryte, redemyd with Crystes blood, and stykketh faste and sure all onely to the promyses that be made therin. Now se ye well good reders, that the chyrch whych Barons here assygneth, is all pure and clene/ and not onely hath no theues nor murderers, nor whores nor bawdes therin/ but is also so pure that not saynte Peter hym selfe may be so bolde to fynde any faute in any man of this congregacyon. But the causes why/ be bycause they be all of goddes eleccyon, and all washed and made fayre by god, and sanctyfyed in spyryt, and redemed with Cristes blood, and stykke all faste onely to the promyses. Remember now good reders, that yf frere Barons abyde by his descrypcyon: then is there no man in the very chyrche but onely at suche tyme as he is so clene and pure wythout spot or wrynkell, that saynte Peter may fynde no faute in hym. And then be there in dede very few of yt and very seld. And yf any man be of yt/ one selfe man is peraduenture of the chyrche and not of the chyrche seuen tymes in a day. For as the scrypture sayth, Seuen tymes falleth the ryghtuouse man and shall aryse agayne. And therfore this chyrche can no man know to lerne any thynge of her whyche he may reken hym selfe the surer of, bycause thys holy chyrche teacheth yt hym. But therto answereth Barons and sayth, <2This chyrche is a spyrytuall>2 <2thynge and no exteryour thynge, but inuysyblefro carnallyies asfayth is/ and>2 <2her clennesse and purenesse is afore Cryste onely, and not afore the worlde/ for>2 <2the worlde hath no iudgement nor knowledge of her.>2 This is somwhat straunge, that this chyrche sholde be inuysyble, when yt is made all of men and women, of whyche euery one is vysyble. But therto answereth also frere Barons and sayth, <2I say>2 <2not that they be inuisyble that be of the chyrch, but that holy chyrche is her selfe>2 <2inuysyble.>2 [Lli] Then aske we hym what is holy chyrche her selfe/ and to that answereth he nothynge, but that holy chyrche her selfe is a congre- gacyon of good crysten men and good crysten women, of whyche euery one is vysyble, but the congregacyon of them is inuysyble. Very well declared, as though he wold tell vs that there were a woman that went inuysyble, and that he ment not that her handes, or her fete, or her hed, or any parte of her were inuysyble/ but all her partes beynge vysyble, her self were yet inuysyble. And as he myght tell vs, that of Poules chyrch we may well se the stones, but we can not se the chyrche. And then we may well tell hym agayne, that he can not se the wood for the trees. To say that the whole thynge is inuysyble, wherof he sayth we may se euery part, is a thyng aboue me pore wyt/ and I suppose aboue his to, to make his saynge trew. But peraduenture he meaneth yf he coulde speke, that though we may se yt, we can not know yt, bycause he sayth yt is spyrytuall. For I may se a man that is spyrytuall, & yet not know hym for spyrytuall, as a man myghte haue sene frere Barons when he came laste into the lande by the kynges lycence, and yet myght happely not haue knowen hym, all though he had knowen hym byfore, but haue taken hym for a monstre/ he hadde so monstrousely dressed hym selfbycause he wold be wondred on. And yet when he waxed after a shamed of him self, bycause he could no better answer for his heresyes, and that his false folyshe hope had fayled hym: he shaued his berd and went lyke a merchaunt of elys skynnys. And then a man myght haue met hym, and upon his name rehersed, myght haue knowen hym for Robert Barons, and yet not know hym for a frere. But yf he had ones knowen hym for a frere, he myght then vpon the syght haue knowen hym for an apostata. But as farre forth as concerneth syght/ a spyrytuall man is no more inuysyble in this worlde, then is a carnall/ and therfore the spyrytuall chyrche may be sene, though the spyrytualyte therof be not sene, nor yt vppon the bare syghte perceyued and knowen for suche. But I wyll not stryue myche wyth frere Barons for a worde. The man is so sore bysyed aboute his rethoryque, that yt is no meruayle though he can not entende to speke reason nor trew english neither/ as appereth where he trans[Lliv]lateth lernynge for teachynge, in his fyrste declaracyon of this worde <2ecclesia,>2 rehersynge the wordes of saynte Poule to the Corynthies thus: I haue sent vnto you Tymothe, the whych shall lerne you my ways that be in Cryste Iesu, as I do lerne euery where in all congregacyons. As though saynt Poule had lerned in euery congregacyon where he came, and euery man taught hym and not he theym. And though that some vnlerned vse this worde lerne for thys worde teache, wyth his accusatyue case set out, as Rychard lerneth Robert: yet saith no man but Barons, Rychard lerneth at Oxforde, for Rycharde teacheth at Oxford. But this is specyally to be noted that he sayth after, that this chirch/ can not erre/ she cleueth so fast to ys word of god that is the veryte. And for this cause he sayeth that saynte Poule calleth her the pyller and ground of trouth/ not that she is so sure of and in her own strenght, but that she stykketh so faste to the lyuynge god and to his blessed word. Now good reder consyder that no man sayeth that the chyrche hath his suerty of yt self/ but of god and of his spyryte euer abydyng in yt, accordynge to the manyfolde promyse of Cryste/ and therfore we nede not frere Barons to tell vs this tale. But consyder now well agayn, that Barns here grauntynge that the very chyrche can not erre, but is as saynte Poule sayth the pyler and grounde or fote of the pylare of trouth because it cleueth to god/ ought here to ponder that this worde, the pyler, and this worde the grounde, or the fote of the pyler, do not barely signyfye strength in the standynge by them selfe/ but they sygnyfy therwyth the beryng vppe of some other thynge, and that they be sure thynges for some other thynges to reste and lene vppon/ as the rofe of a chyrche is borne vppe from ruyne and fallynge, by the pylers vppon whych yt resteth. And ther- fore these wordes of saynt Poule sygnyfye not onely that the chyrche can not in yt selfe fall into the ruyne of dampnable errour, but also that lyke as the pyler is a sure thynge for an house to rest and the grounde or fote of the pyler called in laten <2basis,>2 whyche is the thynge that Barons mysse translateth here the grounde, is the thynge wheruppon the pyller standeth sure/ so is the chyrche the pyller and the fote or ground of trouth, vppon whose doctryne euery man may reste and stande sure. And for this cause doth the holy doctours vse [Mmi] and alledge those wordes, to proue therby not onely that the chyrche can not damnably erre in yt selfe, but also that therfore euery man surely may and of dutye must, geue credence to the chyrche and byleue yt, and lene therunto as vnto a sure pyller, arid stande fast theruppon as vppon a sure fote of a pyller that can not fayle. Now good readers, yf the very chyrche whych can not erre, be a congregacyon inuysyble, and a company vnknowen/ though euery one of them haue the very treuth in him self: yet yf I can not know that chyrche, I can not lene to that chyrche as to a sure pyller of trouth, syth I can not knowe it for the very chyrche though I sholde happen on it. And thus ye se good reders that frere Barns vnknowen chyrche, can not be the pyler nor the grounde of trouth for any man to reste vppon/ but that the chyrche whyche saynt Poule as Barns hym selfe reherseth calleth the pyler and grounde of trouth, must be a knowen chyrche. And therfore thys texte of saynt Poule that he bryngeth, playnely proueth agaynste hym. Now consyder also good reders, that frere Barns in all thys hys descrypcyon and dyffynycyon of the chyrche of Cristes electes, putteth onely these propretees. Fyrst ys they be goddes electes/ secundely that they be wasshed of god from theyr synnys/ and thyrdely that they be redemed by Chrystes bloude/ fourthely that they stycke faste vnto hys merytes onely / fyfethly that they stycke onely to goddes promyses made in Chrystes bloude/ syxtely that they be sanctyfyed in spyryte/ and fynally for the seuenth, that they be clene and pure wythout spotte or wryncle, so farre forth that saynt Peter hym self may fynde no fawte wyth them. Now fyrste as for the eleccyon/ frere Barns playeth as Tyndale doth, walketh in the darke bycause he wold not be caught. For he telleth not whych eleccyon he speketh of / whyther the eternall eleccyon by whyche god in his eternall ence foreseynge the ende of euery thynge before the worlde was wroughte, elected theym for suche causes as hys owne infinite wysdome sawe conuenyent, vnto fynall saluacyon & endeles felycyte/ or els the eleccyon by whyche Cryst elected & chose them into his chyrch here in this world, into whych he chose & toke bothe fynall electes & fynall reprobates. For yf he had expressed which eleccion he ment/ he was aferde of the reprofe of some false folyes that wolde haue folowed therof [Mmiv] As for the seconde poynte is veryfyed in euery man of the comon knowen catholyke chyrche, that came duely to chrystendome. For euery suche man is by the spyryt of god wasshed clene in baptysme. And consyderynge that almost all be chrystened shortely vppon theyr byrthe/ they be in effecte all wasshed clene by god wyth the water & the worde. And as towchynge the thyrde / all we that be of the comon knowen chyrche are redemed in Christes bloude both good and badde. For Cryste hath by hys deth payed euery mannes raunsome, & hath delyu- ered vs yf we wyll, though many men there be that wyl not take the benefyte therof/ but some wyll nedes lye styll in pryson, & some wyll nedes thyder agayne, as no man canne kepe some theuys oute of Newgate/ but let them be perdoned, and theyr fees payed, and them selfe sette on free fote and delyuered out: yet wyll they there for good company tary lose wyth theyr felowes a whyle, and byfore the nexte sessyons come sytte as faste there agayne as euer they sat before. Nowe where he sayeth fourthely that all that are of the chyrch of Cryste, do put theyr trust in the merytes of Cryste onely: yf he mene that they do reken that all theyr owne merytes can not brynge them to heuyn wythout the merytes of Cryste, nor that they coulde nothynge meryte at all wythout the grace of god, nor do put no bold trust in theyr owne merytes, but of humylyte lytell esteme theyr owne workes that they haue done be they neuer so good: that lesson hath he lerned of the knowen catholyke chyrche. And yf he mene that no man is of the chyrche nor maye be saued, that hath any truste of rewarde in Neuyn for hys owne merytes and his workes wrought with helpe of goddes grace, then meneth he falsely, and putteth saynt Poule out of the chyrche of Cryste. For he sayd: I haue fought a good batayle, and I haue fulfylled my course, and I haue kept my fayth, and now remayneth there and is layde vp for me a crowne of iustyce, which our lorde ys is a ryghteouse iudge, shall yelde me in that day. By whych wordys it appereth, that he had good truste in the merytes of the batayle that he hadde foughte, and the course that he had ronne / when he rekened of iustyce to be rewarded and crowned therefore. Nowe yf he mene ferther as his rnayster Luther and his felowe Tyndale do, that no man is of the very chyrche of Cryste, that wyll wyth helpe of grace go about to adde [Mmi] any merytes of hys owne vnto the merytes of Cryst: then meneth he very myscheuously to the mynysshynge of chrysten mennys myndes, towarde the doyng of good workes/ and that lesson hath he lerned of the deuyll contrary to the contynuall techynge of god, exhortyng euery man to good workes wyth promyse of rewarde in heuyn therfore. For Cryste sayth in the gospell of saynt Mathew, If thou wylt entre into the euerlastynge lyfe, kepe the commaundementes. And agayne in the gospell of saynt Luke: Make you frendes wyth the wycked mammon, that when ye shall haue nede they maye receyue you into the euerlastynge tabernacles. More ouer saynt Poule wryt- eth vnto the Corinthies in thys wyse: Euery man shall receyue hys rewarde accordynge to his laboure. And to the Ephesyes thus he sayth: what good dede so euer any man do, that same shall he receyue of our lorde be he bounde or free. The same thynge confyrmeth he also in an other place in hys epystle to the Galathyes, thus sayenge: what so euer a man soweth, ys same shall he repe. For he that soweth in hys flesshe, shall of the flesshe repe corrupcyon. But who so soweth in the spyryte, shall of the spyryte repe euerlastynge lyfe. Let vs do good and faynte not/ for when the tyme shall be come, we shall repe wythout fayntynge. In the Apocalyps thus sayeth god by the mouth of saynt Iohan. I wyll gyue vnto euery one of you accordynge to your dedes. And agayne in the .xxii. chapyter: Marke I come shortely, and my rewarde is wyth me to rewarde euery man after hys dedes. Now to the fyfthe poynt, where he sayth that they that are of the very chyrch, do stycke to the promyses onely: me thynke they that so do be straunge faythfull folke. For yf he wolde saye that euery faythfull person sholde stycke to the promyses of Cryste: I wolde well holde wyth hym/ for that lesson he lerned of the knowen catholyke chyrche. But to saye that ys no man is of the very chyrch of Chryste, that stycketh faste vnto any thynge bysyde the promyses / is a lesson lerned of the deuyll. For so sholde we stycke to promyses onely, and not onely fall from all good workes, for whyche many promyses of god are made/ but ouer that sholde our fayth fayle vs, and fall awaye frome all other poyntes that be no promyses, and yet muste be byleued of them that wyll be saued. For the equalyte & vnyte of godhed in the thre eternall and almyghty persons, is no pro[Mmiv]- myse/ and yet we muste yf we wyll be saued, stycke faste vnto the bylyefe therof Ye and hell is also no promyse of saluacyon, and yet muste we stycke fastely to Chryste in the bylyefe of hys worde, wherwyth he tolde vs there is one, but yf a man lyste for lacke of byleuynge that there is one, fynd it out by the felynge whan he falleth in it. Now towchynge the poynt that he sayth euery man of the very chyrche is sanctyfyed in spyryte/ that is veryfyed onys in euery man of the knowen catholyke chyrch that is chrystened in hys chyldehed. But Barons semeth to mene that they be no lenger of ys chyrche, then whyle they be holy in spyryte/ and ys so holy, so clene, & so pure, without spotte or wryncle, as appereth by the laste poynte, that saynt Peter hym selfe coulde fynde no faute in them. But truely as all the other poyntes requysyte vnto the very chyrche, be veryfyed vppon euery man of the knowen catholyke chyrche: so the contynuall beynge sanctyfyed is not veryfyed in euery man. And the precyse clennes and puryte wythout spotte or wryncle, is here in erthe I wene at full age not fully veryfyed in any man. Now se ye well good reders, that yf none be of the very chyrche, but they that haue these two latter poyntes/ that is to saye ys be so sanctifyed in spyryte, that they be so clene and pure without spotte and wryncle, that saynt Peter can fynde no fawte in them: th fyrste frere Luther oute of the chyrche/ and frere Huyskyn bothe for brekyng of theyr vowes wyth incestuouse weddynge/ and frere Barns also for his periury fallynge in relapse of heresye, and now runnynge at rouers in apostasye. But now good reders let vs resorte vnto the authorytees of the scrypture and of saynt Austayne, whyche frere Barns bryngeth forth/ and consyder whyther that any of them all proue any suche chyrch at all here in erth, as frere Barns appoynteth vs, so sanctyfyed in spyryte that it hath neyther spotte nor wryncle. The fyrste texte is the wordes of saynt Paule in the secunde chapy- ter of hys pystle to the Ephesyes, where he sayth <2you men loue your>2 <2wyues as Cryste hath loued the chyrch, and hath gyuen hym selfefor her that he>2 <2myghte sanctyfye her and clense her in thefounteyne of water thorow the worde>2 <2of lyfe, to make her to hym selfe a gloryouse chyrche with out spotte or wryncle,>2 <2or any suche thynge, but that she myghte be holy and wyth out blame.>2 [Mmi] What thynge fyndeth frere Barons for hys purpose in these wordes? saint Poule here exhorteth men to loue theyr wyu so tenderly that they sholde be of the mynde, that to brynge them to heuyn they coulde tynde in theyr hartes to dye for them, as Cryste hath dyed for the Crysten people to brynge them to heuen/ & that men, to that entent that they maye brynge theyr wyues to the gloryouse blysse of heuyn, sholde here brynge theym well vppe in fayth, in hope, and charyte, and in good workes, lyke as god hath washed his chyrche of all chrysten people, and hath clensed theym by the water in the worde of lyfe, that is to wyt by the sacrament of baptysme. Thus hath god geuen hym self to the deth for his chirch of all Crysten people, to thentent that the sacrament of baptysme myght weshe them all and clense them from all theyr synnes. For wythout his deth the sacrament shold not haue hadde any effycacye to clense them. But why hath he by the sacrament of baptisme, clensed his chyrch of all cristen people/ and by the infusion of his grace in fayth, hope, and charyte, sanctyfyed them in spyryte? surely (as saynte Poule sayth) to thentent that he myghte make her to hym selfe a gloryouse chyrche wythout spot or wryncle/ that is to wyt, that they myght and sholde perseuer in vertue, and yf they fall then ryse agayne by penaunce/ and thus in good workes of charyte and worthy frutes of penaunce, so lyue here wyth his grace, that he myghte after this worlde brynge them to his glory, and there haue them a gloryouse chyrch fyrst in soule and after in body to/ where they shall neyther haue spot nor wryncle neyther of synne gret nor smale, nor spot of corrupcyon in the body, nor wryncle of dyspleasure in the soule, but the tone incorruptyble, the tother impassyble, bothe twayne in ioy and gloryouse blysse wyth god eternall. And this ment there sent Poule/ not that the chyrch shal here in this worlde endure and contynue wythoute spot or wryncle of synne, so clene and pure that saynt Peter could fynde no faut therin/ and that as sone as a man had eyther spot or wryncle, he were by and by none of the chyrche of Cryste in erth. For this I wote well, that saynt Poule hym selfe called the congregacyons to whyche he wrote the chyrches of Cryste, and calleth them sanctyfyed in spyryte/ and yet maketh them not sure that they shall contynue holy/ nor [Mmiv] rekcneth them not so clene & pure, but that he fereth for them and byddeth them beware of waxynge worse, and teacheth them the wayes wherby they may waxe better/ and in many of them fyndeth many fautes to, and byddeth theym amende them, and fyndeth spottes and wryncles, and wold haue them washed and smothed oute. Wyll ye se good reders that this is trew? Consyder well the fyrst pystle of saynt Poule vnto the Corynthies, out of the syxte chapyter, of whyche epystle frere Barons alledgeth here these wordes: <2ye be>2 <2washed,ye be sanctyfyed,ye be iustyfyed in the name of our lord Iesu Criste, and>2 <2in the spirite of our god.>2 Doth the apostle though he call them and sanctytyed and iustyfyed in the spyryte of god, and though he call theym the chyrch of god as he calleth them in the begynnynge of the pystle: doth he meane that by reason of the ablucyon and iusty- fycacyon, wyth whych eche of them was ones washed from his synnes, and iustyfyed in his spyryte by the spyryt of god, infoundynge the grace of fayth, hope, and charyte, wyth the sacrament of baptysme, and where by they were sanctyfyed as persones specyally dedycated vnto goddes holy seruyce, & wyth the indelyble caracter & badge of baptysme receyued into his lyuerey and his holy houshold the chyrche: doth saynte Poule I say meane therfore, that as they were all styll of the chyrche, and by that respecte styll sanctyfyed and by profession dedicate vnto god, as the scrypture calleth the preste sanctyfyed vnto god by his dedycacyon and specyall appoyntement vnto his holy mynystracyon in the temple wyth the holy oyle vppon hym, though the man were not alwaye holy and vertuouse in hys owne herte: dyd I say saynt Poule meane therfore that all those whole Crysten pe in dede of the chyrche, by theyr contynued professyon of the crysten fayth, were also iuste and relygyouse all the whole company in hert, and styll contynued in goddes fermer fauour by very trew crysten lyuynge/ and that so pure and so clene wythout spotte or wryncle, that saynte Peter myghte fynde no faute amonge them? I can not tell you what saynt Peter myght haue done. But well I wote saynte Poule dyd fynde mo fautes then one amonge theym, and great spottes & wryncles, as hym selfe wryteth at length thorow almoste euery chapyter of that pystle, and the secunde pystle to. In whyche pystles [Mmi] as he commendeth them for many thynges/ so doth he for many thynges dysprayse them and reproue theym. And as he sayth there to the chyrche of god, that is to wytte to the crysten people of Corynthies: <2ye be washed, andye be clensed,and ye be>2 <2sanctyfyed and holy, andye be ryche in Iesu Cryste, in all thynges, in euery>2 <2worde, and in all knowledge, as the wyttenes of Cryste is confermed in you,>2 <2so that ye myght lakke nothynge in any grace abydynge or lokynge for the>2 <2reuelacyon of our lorde Iesu Cryste, whyche shall conferme you vnto the ende>2 <2wyth out cryme in the daye of the commynge of our lorde Iesu Cryste.>2 Nowe lyke as he sayth there vnto ys chyrch, ye be such/ so sayth he euen there also to the same chyrche: ye be fallen into dyuysyon, and ye be in debate and dyscorde, in stryfe and in contencyon, and ye do nought and sew one a nother byfore paynym iudges, and ye do one a nother wronge, fraude, and iniury, and you vse fornycacyon amonge you, and some of you such as is not herd of among ys paynyms, and other of you regarde it not nor nothyng do for the reformacyon and amendement therof/ and when ye come to gether to your housell, ye kepe not a reuerent order, nor abyde tyll you come all to gether, nor the ryche is not content to syt and eate wyth the pore and put theyr disshes to gether in comen, but the rych man wyll eate of his owne/ thus ye dyspyse the chyrche of god, and shame the pore folke that haue not of theyr own/ and wyth such proude vncharytable maner and suche vnreuerent fashyon, vsyng your selfe at your assembly to goddes borde, ye shew your self not to regarde the body of our lorde, no more in a maner then ye do the comen materyall meate/ for whych cause god taketh vengeaunce vpon you/ for many of you fall syke therfore, & many of you dye also. Lo good reders these thynges both of the tone sorte and of the tother, dothe saynte Poule wryte vnto the chyrche, in the seffe same pystles out of whych frere Barons here bryngeth forth his authorytees. And then when he wryteth vnto one selfe chyrche and one selfe congregacyon, ye be very good and ye be very nought: what meaneth he but that of the same one chyrche and one company, some be good and some be nought/ though the whole chyrche and congregacyon be called good and holy, bycause there is none holy company in erthe but yt, & also for the holynes of the good folke that are there in/ though there be badde among them/ as Chrystes company was a good company, and yet was there a traytour amonge them, and therfore hym selfe sayd [Mmiv] to his apostles: Now be you clene/ but yet all you be not clene. And specyally is yt holy bycause of the holy hed therof our holy sauyour hym selfe, whose mystycall body is the whole knowen catholyke chyrche/ in whych for all the cure done vppon yt in the baptysme, yet are there many sykke members by many great new synnes and many olde many tymes cured agayne by penaunce in theyr lyues/ and of such as eyther perceyuer in the grace of theyr baptisme vndefoyled, and not reiected by aany dedely synne, or after dedely synnes commytted, be fynally restored vnto grace agayne by the blessed sacrament of penaunce/ of those sortes ordynaryly doth and shall our sauyour (the sore cancred members that wyll not in conclusyon be cured, left vnto the rotte and shaken into the fyre) yt to his father bryghte and smothe, wythoute any spot or wryncle to lyue and endure in heuen/ but neuer shall his chyrche be clerely wytbout spot or wryncle, whyle yt wandereth in this wreched worlde. And the chyrche in erth here muste frere Barons speke of ye wote well. And therfore good crysten reders, here may ye playnly se that saynt Poule in the places that frere Barons hath brought vs forthe, meaneth no suche chyrche as frere Barons wolde here make vs wene to begyle vs wyth/ but callynge them both good and badde, and nneanynge some of them good and some bad, & yet none without spot or wryncle, ment none other chyrche of any other maner, then only the comen knowen catholyque chyrch/ of whych those chyrches to whome saynt Poule wrote were very trew partes, and of the nature d>s and maner of the whole chyrche. For as those partyculare chyrches were knowen chyrches: euen so is the whole chyrche a knowen chyrche. And as they were congregacyons, not of onely good folke but of bothe good and bad to gether: so is the whole catholyke chyrche a congregacyon, not of onely good but of good and badde to gether/ for whyche whole catholyque chyrch god hath & euer shall according to his manyfold promises, so prouyde that the doctryne therof shall neuer be any dampnable errour/ but as Cryste came hym selfe to begynne yt, and sent his apostles dyuerse in dyuerse partes to instructe yt, and they set other vnder them, as saynt Poule set Timothe: so god hath from age to age sent into euery good crysten coun[Nni]trey good & holy vertuouse men, as hath appered by theyr godly lyuynge and holy wrytynge and manyfolde myracles, whyche god hath wrought and wurketh by them/ and wyth whiche wonderfull myracles god bereth wytnesse for them/ and wyth hys owne grace and assystence whyche he promysed sholde euer abyde, wurketh wyth the towarde wylles of the people of hys knowen catholyke chyrche, to the consentyng and agrement of the same doctryne/ so that the catholyke chyrche is the house of god, and the pyller & sure grounde of trouth, that euery syngulare person in the clerynge of all dowtes concernyng the sure auoydynge of all dampnable errours, maye stande and lene vnto. And yf any person departe from the fayth of thys chyrche, or that any pertyculare chyrche fall fro the doctryne of the whole catholyke chyrche, and so departe therfro: yet remayneth the remanaunt styll the very full catholyke chyrch, and is the same howse of god, the same pyller, and the same grounde of trouth, that itwas before whyle the tother was a parte therof/ lyke as yf a man dyd cut of a roten ioynt of hys body, ye and many rotten ioyntes, yet were the re- manaunt the selfe same man styll, and the self same soule shold styll remayne whole in the remanaunt. Nor not euery man that is in dedely synne is therby forthwyth out of the chyrche of Cryst in erth, tyll he eyther departe out or be put out/ no more then a secrete traytoure in a kynges housholde is by hys secrete treason strayghte out of hys checker roule/ nor Iudas hym selfe after hys conceyued treason though he were out of Crystes fauour, was not yet out of hys housholde, tyll hys mayster checked hym and bode hym walke lyke a traytour about hys treason & so dyd put hym out, as the catholyke chyrche of Criste putteth out suche heretykes and suche Iudases now. And thus good chrysten readers here haue ye playnely sene, that all the scryptures that frere Barons bryngeth, make euyn playne agaynste hym, and playnely proue the knowen catholyke chyrche to be the very chyrche of Cryst, and in thys worlde none holy chyrche besyde. Now good chrysten reders, where as frere Barns alledgeth vs dyuers places of saynt Austayne and some other doctours for thys purpose: thoughe I lette theym passe by the waye, and answere theym not forthwyth/ yet shall they not passe vnanswered ere we parte. But for as mych as he [Nniv] laboreth wyth interlacynge of hys heresyes and hys raylynge, to make such confusyon in the mater, that men shold not by hys wyll well perceyue the poynte: I shall therfore soyle you those allegacyons in suche conuenyent place, as maye geue the mater moste lyght. And fyrste ye shall consyder that he wyll nowe tell you where thys chyrche is that he assygneth, of onely so pure & clene persons wythout spotte or wryncle that saynt Peter maye fynde no faute wyth them. Lo thus he sayth. Barons. Thys is the very trewe chyrche that is scatred thorow all the worlde/ and is neyther bounde to person by reason of dygnyte nor yet to any place by the reason of fayned holynesse/ but she is a fre thynge thorow all the worlde as S. Austayne doth wytnesse in these wordes, The holy chyrche are we but I do not say we as one sholde say we that be here alone that here me nowe, but as many as be here fayth- full chrystened men in thys chyrche, that is to saye, in thys cytye, as many as be in this regyon, as many as be beyonde the see, as many as be in all the hole whorlde (for from the rysynge of the sonne tyll the goynge downe is the name of god praysed) so is the holy chirche oure mother &c. Here haue you playnely/ that the holy chyrche is the congregacion of faythfull men where so euer they be in the worlde. And neyther the pope nor yet his cardynallys be more thys chyrche or of this chyrche than the poreste man in erthe/ for thys chyrche stondeth alonely in the spyryyuall fayth of Cryste Iesus, and not in dygnytees nor honours of the worlde/ as Liranus doth declare in these wordes. The chyrche doth not stonde in men by reason of the spyrytuall power or secular dygnyte. For many prynces and many popes and other inferyor persons, haue sweruyd from yhe fayth. Wherfore that chirche doth stonde in those persons in whome is the trewe knowledge and confessyon of fayth and of veryte &c. 0 my lordes what wyll you say to Lira? I haue great mervayle that you burne hym not. It is hye tyme to condempne hym for an heretyke/ for he speketh agaynst your lawe.xxiiij. q. I. Quodcumque, where as your glose declareth, that god suffereth not the romechyrche for to erre/ and Lira sayth playne that many popes haue erred. And also that the chyrche standeth not in dygnyte, but in confessyon of Chryste and of hys blessed veryte. More. In all thys longe tale good readers frere Barns telleth vs no more but the chyrche is fre, bycause hym selfe loueth lybertye/ and the chyrch is bounde to no man bycause hym selfe wolde be bounde to no pryours/ nor the chyrch is bounde to no place bycause suche apostatas wolde be bounde to no cloyster but haue all the worlde to royle in. [Nni] Then sayth he by the authoryte of saynt Austayne that the chyrche is not the chrysten people of any one countrey alone, and who sayd it was? Then he sheweth that Liranus sayth the chyrche standeth not in spyrytuall power or secular dygnyte, but in confessyon of Cryste and hys blessed veryte / and no man fyndeth fawte wyth Lyre for so sayenge/ but we fynde fawte wyth frere Barons for teachynge false heresyes in stede of Chrystes blessed veryte. Now in tellyng vs where the chyrche is/ he telleth vs it is in the worlde/ and trewth it is the very chyrche is in the world but he proueth vs not yet that hys owne chyrche is in the worlde for he proueth no suche chyrche at all. For consyder good readers, that yet for hys purpose is there neuer one worde broughte oute. For yet hathe he brought vs no profe of any chyrche here in erthe, wherof the people lyuynge here in erthe and beynge the membres and partes therof, be so pure and so clene without spotte or wryncle, that saynt Peter may fynde no fawte wyth them. For thys poynt hath he yet brought vs no profe/ but of all that he hath yet brought, parte proueth nothynge for hym, and the more parte proueth clere agaynste hym. And now shall ye se by hys owne wordes folowynge, that as gaye a face as he made before wyth the scrypturs that he brought forth: yet hym self perceyued all the whyle well inough, that all that he hath hytherto sayed proueth in that poynte wheruppon all dependeth, no thynge at all for hys purpose. For lo now thus goth he forward and fyndeth that fawte wyth hym selfe. Barons. But now here wylbe obiected, that I fayne suche a chyrche as our Logicyens do intentionem secundam/ that is a thynge that is no where. Where shall a man fynd a chirch that is so pure and so clene, that hath neyther spotte nor wrynkle in her, and that is without all synne, seynge that all men must of trueth saye, forgyue vs our trespas? And yf any man saye (be he neuer so ryghtuouse) that he hath no synne, than is he a lyar and there is no veryte in hym. More. Lo good readers, here maye ye clerely se, that hym selfe perceyueth all that he hath sayed hytherto able to serue of nought/ but that for all the scryptures that he hath layed [Nniv] to proue that there is suche a chyrche/ and for all the wordes of saynt Austayne, by whych he wold haue semed both to proue that there is such a fayre pure chyrch and a clene, and also that saynt Austayne telleth vs where it is/ that is to wytte not all in any one place, but spredde abrode in all places of the world, where faythfull people are enhabyted: yet for all thys frere Barns here confesseth now that all this serueth of no thynge, but hys purpose that there is in crthe any suche chyrche, remayneth styll so farforth vnproued, that he seeth well hym selfe that men may yet obiecte vnto hym that there is no suche pure and clene chyrche in erthe/ but that for any thyng that he hath brought forth to proue it, he semeth of hys owne brayne to fayne it, as logi- ciens fayne (sayth he) the secunde intencyon. Whyche is he sayth no where. And therfore good reders, cuttynge of now for nowght all that he hath sayd before, as he taketh it for nought hym selfe: lette vs se what he wyll now saye better vppon thys better auysement. For now wyll he not fayle of lykelyhed to proue vs playnely some people some where so pure and so clene wythout spotte or wryncle of synne, that saynt Peter can fynde no fawte in them. Lo thus good reders he proueth it. Barons. To thys I answere that thys holy chyrche hath synne in her, and yet is she pure and clene. Marke saynt Poulys wordes. Chryste hath gyuen hym selfe for her that he myghte make her gloryouse/ so that the clennesse of this holy chyrch is the mercy of god towarde hyr thorow Chryste, for whose sake he layeth nothynge to her charge/ ye and yf any other person wolde/ he is reddy to gyue her hys clennes, and to let her by fayth clayme of ryghte hys puernesse for hyr owne. For bytwene them all is commen, as bytwene man and wyfe. So that yf the chyrche loke on her owne merytes and of hyr own workes/ she is full of synne and must nedes say, dimitte mihi debita. The whiche she nedyd not to saye yf she had none. But yf she referre hyr selfe vnto the merytes of her blessed husbonde Chryste Iesus, and to the clennes that she hath in his bloude/ than is she wythout spotte. For by the reason that she stycketh by fayth so faste vnto hyr husbande Chryste, and doth abyde in confessyon of hyr synne, and requyreth mercy for theym/ therfore is there no thynge layed to hyr charge/ but all thynge is forgyuen hyr. And therfore sayth saynt Poule, there is no dampnacyon vnto them that be in Chryste Iesu. And that thys maye be the playner: wyll brynge you saynt Austayns wordes the whyche was vexed of the Donatystes with thys same rea[Nni]son that is layde agaynste me. Hys wordes be these. The hole chyrche sayth, forgeue vs our synnes, wherfore she hath spottes and wrincles. But by knowledging of theym, her wryncles be extended and stretched oute/ by know- ledgynge, her spottes are washed away. The chyrch abydeth in prayour thay she myght be clensed by knowledgynge of her synnes. As longe as we lyue here, so standeth yt/ and when we shall departe oute of this bodye, all suche thynges be forgeuen to euery man/ wherfore by this meane the chyrche of god is in the treasours of god wythout spot and wryncles. And therfore here do we noy lyue wythout synne/ but we shall passe from hens wythout synne &c. Here haue you clerely that the chyrch of god is clensed and puryfyed by Crist for knowledging of her synnes/ and not by her owne pure- nes. Wherfore suche a chyrche there muste nedes be, though that the carnall yie can not se her, nor fleshely reason can iudge of her. Wherfore we beleue this artycle by fayth, that ho communyon or felyshyppe of holy men / and know yt not by seyeng or felynge, as we do the fellyshyppe of drapers or mercers/ for then were yt none artycle of the fayth. And yt is playne that all your exteryour sygnes, wyth all your holy ornamentes, as your holy myters, your holy crosse staues, your holy pyllers and pollaxes, your holy red gloues, your holy ouches, and your holy ringes, your holy anointed fingers, your holy vestimentes, your holy chalices, holy golden showes, ye take also to helpe you saynte Thomas of Canterberis holy showe, with all the holy botys of holy munkes/ and all these to gether can not make one crumme of holynes in you, nor helpe you one prycke forward, that you may be within this chyrche. For yf these thynges could helpe, then were yt no mastery to make an asse to be of the chirch of god. But our holy mother the chyrche hath a nother holynes, that commeth from god the fader thorow the sweat blood of his blessed son Iesu Cryste, in whom is all her con- fydens and truste. Vnto whom she styckeyh only by stedfaste fayth/ by whose purenes she is also pure, in that that she doth confesse her vnclenes/ for she byleueth stedfastly that she hath an aduocate for her syn to the father of heuen whyche is Cryste Iesus. And he is the satysfaccyon for her synnes. And he of his mercy and not of her merytes, hath chosen her for to be his. And bycause she is hys, therfore must she be clene so longe as she abydeth in hym. Thys is wyll declared in saynte Iohan where our mayster Cryste is compared to the vyne, and all the members of holy chyrche to the branches / that as the branches can brynge forth no fruye of them selfe/ so can holy chyrche of her selfe brynge forth no goodnes ex- cepte she remayne in Cryste by perfyte fayth. Thys is well proued by your owne law whose wordes be these/ therfore ys the chyrche holy/ bycause she byleueth ryght wisely in god &c. Here you not the cause wherfore the chyrche is holy? bycause she beleueth ryht wysely in god/ that is she byleueth in nothynge but in hym/ and she byleueth nor hereyh no worde but his/ as our maysyer Criste bereth wytnes: my shepe heare my voyce, and a nother mannys voyce do they not knowe/ also in a nother place/ he that is of god, hereth the [Nniv] wordes of god: how commeth thys that the chyrche of god hath so sure a iudgement, that she knoweth the voyce of Cryste from other voyces? and can not erre in her iudgement? Bycause that Cryste hath chosen her/ and bycause she is lerned of god as our mayster Cryste sayth/ and by cause she hath (as saynt Iohan sayth) the inwarde oyntement of god, that teacheth his all maner of veryte so that she can not erre. But why can she not erre? because she may do what she will? Bycause that all thyng that she doth is well done? bycause she may make newe rules and new lawes at her pleasure? Bycause she may inuent a newe seruyce of god that is not in scrypture at her wyll? Nay nay my lordes. For she is but a woman and muste be ruled by her husbande/ ye she is but a shepe and muste heare the voyce of her shepeherd. And so longe as she doth, so longe can she not erre, by cause the voyce of her shepeherd can not be false, This may be proued by your owne lawe, whose wordes be these/ the whole chyrche can not erre. Also in a nother place/ the con- gregacyon of faythfull men muste nedes be whyche also can not erre &c. These wordes be playne, what chyrche yt is that can not erre, that is the congregacyon of faythfull men that be gadered in Cristes name, which haue Cristis spryt, whyche haue the holy oyntement of god, whyche abyde faste by Crystes worde, and heare none other mannys voyce but hys. More. Here haue I good reders rehersed you the full declaracyon of his purpose to gether/ whych as yt were well done that no man sholde vouchsaufe to rede ouer ones, so were yt good that who so wolde nedes rede yt ones, sholde indyfferently wythout parcyalyte rede yt and aduyse yt often. For in good fayth I doute yt not but he that so wolde, had he no lernynge at all, and were wytted but ryght meanly: yet yf he loke not all to the scoffynge, and suffer hym selfto be caryed awaye wyth the felowes fonde raylyng from the consyderacion of the mater/ he could not but perceyue such foly and suche falsehed, and such repugnaunce and contradyccyon in yt selfe, that he sholde neuer after nede any man ellys to answere hym but hym selfe. But then yf the reader be lerned, and loke well farther vppon the authorytees that thys man layeth vs forthe for his purpose: he shall fynde them handeled in such wyse, that he shall thynke yt more then pyty that eyther holy scripture or any good boke ellys sholde euer come in suche a false folys handes. For lettyng the authorytees stande for the whyle / what [Nni] hath he tolde vs in all this longe tale? His purpose was ye wote well, to proue vs that here in erth there is and muste nedes be a chyrche and a congregacyon of people, so clene and so pure wythoute any spotte or wryncle of synne, that saynte Peter may fynde no faute in any of them. And how hath he now proued yt? Take fyrste out of his tale his plesaunt scoffynge vppon myters, and crosse staues, pyllers, pollaxes, and rede gloues, ouches, and rynges, and then his raylynge vppon the holy oyntemenvsed in the consecracyon of anoynted persons, and vpon vestymentes/ and chalyces, and mok- kynge of saynte Thomas wyth iestynge vppon his showe, whose showe was I am sure neuer halfe so blacke as is frere Barons soule in synne, but yfyt be by penaunce washed any whyter synnes he made his boke: take oute I saye of his tale all this goodly garnyshynge, and howe hath he proued vs besyde that there is and muste nedes be in erthe a chyrche and congregacyon of people, so pure and so clene wyth- oute spotte or wryncle of synne, that saynte Peter may fynde no faute in any of theym / dothe he proue yt by any other then by rydeles that he hadde redde in Tyndales boke, of synnynge and yet not synnynge, and errynge and yet not errynge? And yet hath he not the wytte when he sawe the mater in the tother mannys boke byfore hym/ yet hadde he not I say the wytte well to perceyue yt, and to do so mych as to put some distinccyon betwene dedely synne and venyall as Tyndale doth, and betwene damnable errour and errour that letteth not from saluacion as Tyndale doth also. In whyche thynges though Tyndale hath shamefully ouerseen hym self, and dedely synned and damnably erred / albe yt he so farre mysseth the marke that he marreth all his mater: yet at the leste wyse he shewed hym selfe that he saw yt/ where as Barons hadde not as it semeth so myche wyt as to perceyue yt, when Tyndale had in his boke shewed yt hym. How be yt peraduenture I blame his wytte causelesse. For I wene the man perceyued those poyntes well inough. But for bycause he sawe that Tyndale when he broughte them in, dyd therby so intryke hym selfe in the mater, and meshed hym selfe in the net of his owne foly, that he coulde neuer well wynde out: frere Barons thought yt best therfore to take a surer way, and rydde hym self with only Tyndales rydelles of synnynge and yet not synnynge, and er[Nniv]- rynge and yet not errynge, and leue oute those other poyntes/ and walke so myche more in the darke then Tyndale doth, though Tyn- dale kepe hym selfe in the darke more then metely well. For now to proue vs all his whole purpose, that there is in erth here a chyrche and a company that be clene wythout any spot or wryncle of synne, & that so clene that saynte Peter may fynde no faute/ obiectynge agaynste hym selfe the thynge that he seeth well euery man wolde, that ys to wyt that both by comen experyence of the peple, and by the playne worde of god the contrary of his posycyon and purpose appereth euidently trew: he answereth in conclusyon therunto, that the congregacyon whych he calleth the chyrch euer hath spottes and wryncles of synne, and that yet yt is for all that very pure and clene, bycause that for her abydynge in the knowledgynge of her spottes and wryncles of her synnes, and askynge mercy for theym, god layeth nothynge of them to her charge. Consyder now for goddes sake good reders, how perfytly frere Barons hath answered you, and howe perfytely he hath proued his purpose. He promysed vs you wote well to proue vs a chyrche pure and clene wythout spot or wryncle / and now he bryngeth vs a chyrch pure and clene as he sayth wyth spottes and wryncles both. Is there any man so bare wytted, that can so be satysfyed and thynke hym selfe suffycyently answered thus? I hadde as lyue he told vs that yf there were a woman with a croked nose, as longe as no man tell her of it so long her nose stode ryght. For by hym though god lay neuer her spottes nor her wryncles to her charge, but is alway wasshynge her spottes, and alwaye stretchynge out her wryncle: yet he confesseth that for all the wash- ynge and all the stretchynge, as longe as she lyueth she is neuer wyth- oute them. And his promyse ye wote well was, to proue vs a chyrche not pure and clene wyth them, but pure and clene wythoute them. Now where he sayde the chyrche is so wythoute spotte, that saynte Peter myght fynde no faute in her, he begyled me. For I hadde went she sholde haue had none for saynte Peter to spye. And I meruayle What he ment by ys word, yt shall not be laufull for saint Peter to fynd any faut in her. For I thought that yt wolde alway be lawfull for saynt Peter [Ooi] to saye trewe, and to call a spotte a spotte, and a wryncle a wryncle in her all the whyle she hadde any/ and that is as Barns now confesseth in conclusyon all the whyle she is here. But now ment Barns all thys whyle as it appereth farre of another fasshyon, that is to wyt that she shold euer haue spottes and wryncles whyle she lyueth in erth/ but ys saynt Peter maye not be suffered to tell her so/ for yf any man wolde laye her spottes and her wryncles to her charge then is Cryst sayth frere Barns redy to gyue her hys clennesse, and to lette her by fayth clame of ryght hys purynesse for her owne/ and whyche fayth meneth he? fayth alone of lykelyhed for all onely fayth iustyfyeth he sayth. But yet good readers ye wote well for all thys tyll she come there as she shall be gloryouse, whyche is in heuyn & not here/ and vnto whyche though the chyrche shall in conclusyon come/ yet shall not euery man come that is at any tyme parcell or member of the chyrche, no more then though the chyldren of Israell came in conclusyon to the lande of byhest/ and were dyuers tymes delyuered agayne oute of thraldome / that it therfore folowed that all came thyder, but many dyed in desert: yet in the meane whyle I say tyll god hath so fully gyuen her his clennesse and his purynes, that he hath fully wesshed out all her spottes and strecched out all her wryncles & made her gloriouse in heuen/ where as saynt Poule sayth, who shall accuse the chosen of god / as who say no man can / ellys whyle she is yet here in erth not gloryfyed, nor her spottes fully wesshed out/ but be in wesshynge, nor her wryncles fully strecched out/ but be in strecch- ynge / and whyle as faste as her husbande wassheth she spotteth, and as faste as he streccheth she wryncleth: I can not in good fayth se why saynt Peter sholde be aferd/ or by what lawe it were vnlawe- full for hym to saye for the tyme the thynge that for the tyme is trouth, that is to wyt that she is not yet pure & clene wythout spotte or wryncle. And thus good reders yet ye se onys agayne that frere Barons proueth nothynge the chyrche that he promysed but when in stede of one pure and clene wythoute spotte or wryncle he bryngeth one, not so clene but that she is spotted and wryncled/ he wolde wynne the felde wyth a face, & make saynt Peter aferde, to call her spottes spottes, or her wryncles wryncles. But it wyll not be Barns, it wyll not be. For though saynt Peter whyle hym selfe was of ys very chyrch here in erth/ and therfore yet wryncled and spotted, [Ooiv] and so sore fered reprofe, that at the worde of a woman he was aferd, to loke a gyrle in the face/ yet now that he is gloryfyed in the chyrche in heuyn/ and all hys spottes wasshed clene out, and all his wryncles clene streched out/ he is now so farre out of all fere of reprofe, that the thonder of youre greate worde can not lette hym to saye trewe, for any fere of your gargyle face, that ye came dysguysed wyth, at your laste resortynge hyther. But now let vs consyder sumwhat of frere Barns holy prechynge by the waye, whyther it be so holy as he wolde haue it seme. The cause he sayth why thys chyrche is here so holy, pure, and clene, wythout spotte or wryncle / and yet hath he sayth euer spottes and wryncles, whyle it is in this worlde/ is he sayth bycause god hath chosen it wythout any merytes of her, and bycause she knowledgeth her fautes. Here muste we consyder alway good reders, that he putteth the chyrch to be all of good folke and none euyll, nor dedely synners therin/ for that is ye remember well the dyfference bytwene the comon knowen catholyke chyrche and hys/ that the catholyke chyrche of Cryste here in erth, hath in it bothe good and bad/ and frere Barons chyrche hath none in it, but so good, so clene, and so pure, that there is not an euyll man therin/ but though they neuer lacke spottes nor wryncles, yet theyr spottes be no spottes, nor theyr wryncles be no wryncles, or at the leste wyse though they be/ yet saynt Peter maye not be so bolde to call them so/ bycause them selfe knowledge them to be so. Now as for that he speketh of eleccion and merytes/ we wyll not mych medle wyth hym. For we agre that god cheseth by preuencyon of grace, euery man ys he taketh to hym before the man maye any thynge meryte, whyche can wyth out grace nothynge meryte. But after may man by fre wyll wurke wyth grace and helpe, to meryte rewarde in heuyn by good wurkes wrought in fayth and cheryte and not in fayth alone, what so euer frere Barns agaynst fre wyll and good wurkes bable to the contrary. But now concernynge that he speketh of satysfaccyon, and that Cryste is our satysfaccyon / the wordes are good and trewe: for Chrystes deth is able and suffycyent, and so is the leste drope of hys bloude for the satysfaccyon of the synnys of all the whole worlde, and many be wythout any [Ooi] other satysfaccyon saued, as be all the chyldren that after baptysme dye in theyr cradels. But go hath not so ordered yet / that euery man which hath age & dyscrecyon shold so trust vnto that satysfaccyon by whyche Cryste wyth his passyon satysfyed for all mennes synnes at onys/ that he sholde for hys owne synnes by the frutefull wurkes of penaunce make no satysfaccyon hym selfe, no more then he wold though Cryst be our aduocate & pray for vs, that we shold therfore be the more slacke & remysse in prayenge also dylygentely for our selfe. For he byddeth & teacheth vs also to praye, & that without ceacyng & fayntyng. Nor he taketh it not for foly nor for synne ys for the honour we bere to god, we honour and praye to the sayntes also that are hys frendes, to be intercessours for vs/ agaynste whyche frere Barons hath made as very a folysshe processe as euer dyd here- tyke that spake on that parte, syth that heresye fyrste beganne/ and no lesse folysshely speketh he in many places agaynst satysfaccyon & agaynst all the sacrament of penaunce. And therfore where he sayeth that the chyrche is made clene and pure, by knowledgynge her synnys: it appereth well that though he speke the same wordes, that saynt Austayne spake / yet he meneth not as saynt Austayne ment. For saynt Austayne in dyuerse other places declareth, that a synner sholde knowledge hys dedely synnys, by shryfte and confessyon and do satysfaccion and penaunce / appoynted hym by the preste, as he doth both in dyuers other placys/ and also at great length in hys boke de <2vera & falsa penitentia,>2 where he sayth in thys wyse, Therfore he that repenteth lette hym vtterly repente / lette hym shewe hys sorow wyth tearys/ let hym represente and declare his lyfe vnto god by the preste/ lette hym preuent the iudgement of god, by shryft. For our lorde commaunded those that were made clene of theyr leprosy, that they shold shewe them self to the prestes/ therby teachynge that the synys muste be confessed by bodely presence, and not be shewed by a messenger, nor by writynge. And after in the .xv. vtterly in the power of the iudge in the iudgement of ys preste/ let hym reserue vnto hym selfe no power of hym selfe, but that he be redy at the prestes commaundement, to do for the repayrynge of the lyfe of hys soule all thynges that euer he wolde do for to fle the deth of hys body, and ys wyth desyre to/ for bycause he getteth agayne infynite lyfe. [Ooiv] And thus it appereth as ye se good reders, in what wyse saynt Austayne wolde a synner sholde knowledge hys dedely synnys, that is to wytte by shryfte, contrycyon, and satysfaccyon / not onely voluntary bysyde, but also suche as sholde be enioyned by the preste. And whyle frere Barons doth but mocke the sacrament of penaunce/ and bycause Cryste is our satysfaccyon, wyll that men shall do none for them selfe: it appereth well I saye therfore that though he speke in thys place as saynt Austayn doth in one place, yet meneth he not as saynt Austayne ment in that place. And therfore by frere Barns menynge, a man nedeth no more but knowlege hym self a synner and all is saufe. And then maye the chyrche be sone a greate flocke. For there be folke inough able to make a great flocke, that wylbe content to knowlege theyr synne yf that may serue alone, and they wythout perell suffred to synne on styll. And yet though there were no more requyred but euyn a bare knowlegyng of theyr synne: yet wolde neyther Barons, nor Tindale, nor Luther, nor Lambert, nor Huyskyn do so myche for goddes sake as to knowlege theyr synne/ but they wyll rather runne to the deuell in hell, then wynne heuen wyth the bare knowlegynge that theyr poysened heresyes and the abomynable sacryledge of freres & nonnes maryage, is any synne at all. And marke well thys by the waye good reader, that by Barons in suche tymes as men haue bytwene the begynnynge of theyr dedely synnes & the knowledgynge of theyr synnys, whyche tymes be in many one manne many tymes in hys dayes: in all those tymes they be not of the chyrch/ and agayne in all the tymes in whyche they knowledge, they be forthwyth of the chyrche. So that by Barns, one selfe manne is of the chyrche & not of the chyrch, not onely many tymes in his lyfe/ but also some one is peraduenture of the chyrche and not of the chyrche dyuers tymes in one daye. And thys is playne agaynste Tyndals chyrche. For he putteth the chyrche to be a cumpany of onely suche as neuer synne dedely, and therfore be neuer out of the chyrche/ how be it he calleth theym all waye repentauntes and yet sheweth that somtyme they repente not, but be caryed forth in theyr synne long ere they repent / and so neyther agreeth he wyth Barns nor wyth hym selfe neyther. [Ooi] But there in doth Barons quyte hym as well agayne/ for no more doth he neyther. For some tyme he sayth that yt muste nedes be that there muste be suche a chyrche, that by the fayth and the knowleg- ynge of her synnes, and the herynge of Crystes voyce and cleuynge to his word/ and bycause he hath chosen her, is clense clene and can not erre. And then agayne he speketh in some place of that fashyon, as though yt myght be that there were some tyme no suche chyrche at all. For he sayth she is clene so longe as she abydeth in hym and no lenger/ sygnyfyenge that she myght peraduenture departe oute of hym, & then be no chyrch of his. And therfore he saith ys she can not erre, bycause she hereth the voyce of her shep- pard, and bycause she hath the inward oyntement of god/ as saynt Iohan sayth, that teacheth her all maner of trouthe, so that she can not erre. But then to shew vs that we shold not reken our self sure of her doctryne, wenynge that she sholde be at all tymes in suche case and so taughte of god wyth his inwarde oyntement that we might be sure that she wold teche vs nothing but suche as god inwardely taught her: he telleth vs how longe we may truste her, and sayth she is but a woman, and muste be ruled by her husbande/ and she is but a shepe, and muste heare the voyce of her shepeherd. And so long as she so doth/ so longe can she not erre: as though he wolde say, some tyme peraduenture she dothe not, and then dothe she erre, and therfore then byleue her not. And to proue that she may some tyme leue her husband and go from hym, and not be ruled by hym, and so be ful of synne and erroure: he bryngeth in the parable of Chryste, where he sayde, I am the very vyne, and ye be the braunches. And lyke as the braunches can brynge forth no frute but yf yt abyde in the vyne/ no more sayde our sauyour can ye do but yf ye abyde in me. And in this meaneth Barons metely well in part, and better then Tyndale. For by these wordes yt well appereth, that those whyche are good folke in dede, and at one tyme very braunches of that very vine/ may by the deuyls meanes and theyr owne folyshe neglygence and frowardnes, fall of fro the vyne and so brynge forth no good frute, but wyther away and serue but for the fyre/ as dyd that scysmatike traytoure Iudas, whych was at the tyme of these wordes spoken one of the braunches of [Ooiv] that vyne. And thus meaneth Barns, that he whych is at one tyme good and of yt, may be a nother tyme nought and fall from yt, and then is foule and vnclene and full of errours. But in this is Tyndale agaynste Barons. For Tyndale sayth he whyche is ones good and a braunche of that vyne, can neuer synne dedely after/ bycause he can not come into it to be a lyuely braunche of that very vyne, but by goddes eleccyon and a felynge fayth, that can as Tindale sayth neuer fayle nor departe out or fall of. But therin doth Barons not erre so farre out as Tyndale doth/ but taketh yt accordynge to Crystes meanyng, that by this parable geueth euery man warnyng that they may fall of, and byddeth them be ware they do not. But then in a nother poynt Barons semeth to runne out at rouers as farre beyonde Tyndale. For where as Tyndale falsely telleth vs, that neuer one membre of the chyrch may fall fro Cryste at any tyme:. frere Barons telleth vs here, that the whole chyrche may fall from hym dyuerse tymes, and that therfore she may diuerse times erre, and that therfore her doctryne is not alwaye sure, nor maye not alway be lened vnto nor surely be byleued/ but ys euery man muste nedes vppon parell of his owne soule examyne and iudge her doctryne, and so receyue or reiecte her doctryne by the worde of god. And this muste euery man do vppon the payne of dampnacyon, whyther he haue wyt and lernynge mete therfore or not. And now syth yt is so that Barons putteth in this case not euery syngular member of the chyrche, of whome some may fall of at one tyme, some at a nother, and some come in agayn, and some per- aduenture neuer/ and yet all ys whyle the body neuer gone, nor the hed lefte wythout members, nor the vyne left wythoute braunches: syth Barons I saye repugnaunt not onely to Tyndales tale, but also to some other partes of his owne, telleth vs that she that is to saye the whole intier chyrche, maye so departe and fall of from god, that we can haue no suertye of her perseueraunce, but that she may leue hym and so fall in errour. Whych he saith to make vs thynke that we may therfore mysse trust her doctryne, and truste yt no lenger then as long as she abydeth in god. And bycause we can not well know when she is with hym and when from hym: therfore he wolde that we shold [Ooi] alway mysse trust her, and euer make an assay and a tryall of her, euery man for hys owne parte vppon the parell of his owne soule, examynynge hym selfe her doctryne by the scrypture, as well man as woman, whether he or she can skyll therof or no. Syth frere Barons I saye telleth vs in effecte this tale contrary to some other partes of his owne tale: I well may and wyll cut of all his bybell babyll that he maketh in tellyng vs that the generall counsayles may erre, bycause yt may be he sayth that they haue not the spyryte of god wyth theym. For what wolde yt auayle for me to defende the credence of the generall counsayles vnto frere Barons, when he so handeleth the mater that he wolde make vs wene that not onely the generall counsayles whyche represent the whole chyrch may erre, but also that the whole chyrche whiche he putteth hym selfe, of people so clene and pure wythout spot or wryncle, that saynt Peter may fynde no faute in them/ though she can not erre whyle she cleueth to god and heareth his word, and therfore therby is suche, yet she may fall fro god he sayth & leue the lenyng vnto his worde, and so wax foule and fylthy, and so fall in errours. I wyll therefore peraduenture at some other conuenyent tyme, entreate the mater of the generall counsayles wyth frere Barons / in whyche treatye I truste to make almoste euery chylde perceyue, that frere Barons all that he babeleth here of the counsayles, yf he hadde asked and folowed any wyse mannes counsayle, but yf he coulde haue treated yt more wysely, sholde wysely haue left yt out. And so doth appere all redy. For he hath not in all ys he sayth, proued no generall counsayle fallen in any dampnable errour / whyche kynde of errour is the erroure that we speke of But now syth he sayth as ye haue herd, and for as myche also as whether a pope or generall counsayle eyther maye dampnable be deceyued and erre, is not nowe oure mater / but whyther the catholyque knowen chyrche be the very chyrche, and then whether the whole chyrch may erre/ and syth the poyntes of the catholyque fayth wherin frere Barons and we vary, and wherin wyllyam Tyndale and we varye, and wherin frere Luther and we vary, and wherin frere Huyskyn and we vary, and wherin we vary wyth all the other hundred sectes of heretyques, and wherin eche of theym varyeth wyth other as well as wyth vs, except only [Ooiv] one thyng the weddynge of freres and nunnes/ for in that these new heretykes be all most all agreed, whych tyll wyth in this twenty yere neuer one of the olde heretyques wolde for very shame haue graunted/ but now syth as I saye the poyntes of the fayth that they and we varye for, be for oure parte not onely determyned by counsayles, but also receyued and approued as parte of the comen catholyke fayth, by the faythfull consent and bylyef of all crysten nacyons/ and the contrary parte not onely condemned and abhorred by holy generall counsayles, but also by ys sentence of all old holy sayntes wrytynges and by the cath- olyque consent of all crysten people, byfore that these heretyques that nowe reuyue theym, departed oute ofthe catholyque chyrche for them/ some secte of whyche, bothe Tyndale and Barons wolde were taken for the chyrche/ and neyther of both can tell whyche, and therfore dare not name whyche, but sayth yt is vnknowen whyche: I shall therfore passe ouer as I sayd for this tyme frere Barons bybyll babyll agaynst the generall counsayles, and shall yet also tyll I come farther in this mater, dyffer the touchynge of the textes ys he bryngeth forth of saynte Austayne and other holy doctours for the profe of his pur- pose/ and I wyll fyrst touche the poynt by whyche Barons wyll make vs to know his vnknowen chyrche, yf we happen to come where yt is. For where we shold seke her ys he telleth vs not/ as though it made no mater though we neuer founde her, so that we know her yf we happe to fynde her. And yet yt appereth ys he thynketh it necessary to seke her and fynde her/ for elles wherfore geueth he any tokens at all? But this poynt Barons lerned of Luther / and yet fyndeth he Luther so folyshe, ys he is ashamed to tell all his tale, as I shall after shew you. But first let vs heare what a wyse tale Barons wyll in this mater tell vs. Barns. Now must we declare by what signes and tokyns that we may know, that in thys place or that place there be certayne membres of thys wholy chirch. For though she be in her selfe spyryyuall, not be perfaytly knowen by our exteriour senses: yet neuertheles we may haue certayn tokens of her spiritual presens, wherby we may rekyn that in thys place and in that place be certayn of her membres. As by a naturall exsample, though the soule of man in her selfe be spirytuall and inuysyble, yet may we haue sure tokens of her presence, as hearing, mouynge, spekynge, smellynge, wyth such oyher. So lyke wyse where the word of god is trewly and perfyyely preached, out the damnable dremes of men, [Ppi] and where it is well of the hearers receyued, and also where we se good workes thay do openly agre wyth the doctryne of the gospell/ these be good and sure tokens wherby that we maye iudge that there be some men of holy chyrche. As to the fyrste, where as the gospell is trewly preached, it muste nedes lyghte in some mennes hartes, as the prophete wytnessyth: My worde shall not returne agayne to me frustrate/ but it shall do all thynge that I wyll/ and iy shall prospere in those thynges vnto whyche I dyd sende it. Also saynt Poule saytll, fayth commeth by hearynge, and hearynge commeth by the worde of god / and therefore it is open in holy scrypture, that whan Peter spake the wordes of god, the holy goste fell downe on them all. Wherfore it is open that goddes worde can neuer be preached in vayne, but some men must nedes reseiue it, & therby be made of holy chyrch, though that men do not know yhem neyther by theyr names nor yet by theyr faces/ for this word is receiued into theyr hartes. The second token is, that the receyuers of this word do worke well there afyer, as S. Paule declareth of his hearers, whan you reseued of vs the worde wherwyth god was preached/ you reseued yt not as the worde of men, but euyn (as yt was in dede) the worde of god whyche worketh in you that byleue. So that yf men do worke after the worde of god/ yt ys a good token that there be men of the chyrche, though that we (hypocrysye ys so subtylle and so secrete) maye be oftentymes dysceyued by these outwarde workes. But neuer the lesse cheryte iudgeth well of all thynges that haue a good outwarde sygne, and be not openly agaynste the worde of god. But yt ys no ieopardye though chyryte be dysceyued, for he is open to all ieopardyes/ but fayth is neuer deceyued. Now to our purpose, that where the worde of god is preached truely, yt ys a good and a perfyt token that there be some men of Chrysyes chyrche / thys may be proued by Chrysostimus wordes, They that be in Iudea, lette them fle vp in to the mountaynes /that is to saye, they that be in chrystendome, lette theym gyue them selfe to scrypturs. Wherfore commaundeth he that all chrystened men in that tyme, shulde flye vnto scrypturs? For in that tyme in the whyche heresies haue optayned in to the chyrch/ there can be no trewe probacyon of chrystendome, nor no nother refuge vnto chrysten men, wyllynge to know the veryte of fayth, but the scrypturs of god. Afore by many wayes was it shewed which was the chyrche of Cryste, and whiche was the congregacyon of gentyles. But now there is none other waye to knowe vnto them that wyll knowe whiche is the very trew chyrche of Chryste, but alonely by scrypture. By workes fyrste was the chyrche of Cryst knowen whan the conuersacyon of chrysten men other of all or of many were holy/ the whiche holines had not the wycked men, but now chrysten men be as euyll or worse than heretykes or gentylys/ ye and greater continencye is founde amonge them than amonge chrysten men. Wherfore he that wyll knowe whiche is the very chyrch of Cryste/ how shall he know but by scripturs onely? Wherfore our lorde consyderynge that so great confusyon of thynges, shulde come in this latter dayes / therfore commaundeth he that chrysten [ppiv] men whyche be in chrysten- dome wyllynge to reserue the stedfastnesse of trewe fayth shulde flye vnto none other thynge but vnto scryptures / for yf they haue respecte vnto other thynges they shall be slaundered and shall peryshe/ not vnderstondynge whiche is the trewe chyrche. &c. These wordes nede no exposycion they be playne inough they do also exclude all maner of lernynge sauynge holy scrypture/ wherfore se how you can with honesty saue your holy lawes/ and defende them agaynst Chrysostome. More ouer yf Chrysostom complayne of the incontynency that was in hys dayes/ how wold he complayne yf he now lyued, and sawe the baudry and fornycacyon that is in the chyrche? Also he sendyth men to scryptures that wyll know chyrch/ & not vnto the holy chyrch for in the chyrch were heresyes but not in scripture. Also saynt Paule wytnessyth the same sayenge / you are bylte vppon the fundacyon of the apostels and prophetes/ here haue you playnely that the very trew chyrche is grounded ye and foundyd of holy scrypture/ and therfore where so euer that the worde of god is preched/ that is a good token that there be some men of Christes chyrche. But now as to the frutes and workes of this chyrche/ she doth alonely fetche out hyr maner of lyuynge/ and all her good workes out of the holy word of god/ and she fayneth not nor dremyth any other newe holynesse or newe inuented workes that be not in scryp- ture, but she is content with Chrystes lernynge and beleueth that Chryst hath sufficiently taught hyr all maner of good workes that be to the honour of our heuenly father. Therfore inuenteth she none other waye to heuen but foloweth Chryste onely / in sufferynge oppressyons and persecucyons, blasphemynges and all other thynpes that may be layde vnto hyr/ whyche as saynt Augustayne sayth she lerned of oure mayster Chryste. Our holy mother the chyrche thorow out all the world scatered far and longe/ in hyr trew hed Cryste Iesus taught / hath lerned not to fere the contumelys of the crosse nor yet of deth, but more and more is she strengthed, not in resystynge but in sufferynge. More. Here haue ye herde good reders a fayre tale wyth a proper en- sample of the soule/ and then two tokens after/ by whyche ye maye knowe in whyche company there be some of the chyrche, though ye can not know whych the persons be that be of the chyrche. And in both these poyntes ye haue herde hys whole tale no worde in the waye lefte out/ nor one worde hath he not after for any forther profe/ but spendynge a lefe & an halfe in raylynge vppon the clergye, and seremonyes and sacramentes of the chyrch, therewyth he fynyssheth and endeth all hys processe. [Ppi] And therfore as touchyng the mater, ye haue herde all his whole tale garnysshed and made fayre wyth the sample of the soule, and the two tokens of the chyrche. But now is thys tale fayre as longe as it is in tellynge, an-d goth fayre and smothe by a mannes eare, as the water goth ouer the goosys backe / for ellys yf it tary styll tyll it wete well to the skynne, and be well felte and consydered, then it leseth all ys grace and wyll appere so folysshe, ys the reader wyll thynke that thys tale hath mo tokens then twayne to make hym knowe that the wryter had almoste no more wyt in his hed then one that had no soule in hys body. I lette passe that he noteth in the mergyne these wordes, how a man maye knowe the chyrch/ and then he telleth vs in hys texte not hoW a man maye knowe it, nor any pyece of it/ but how a man may knoW in what place it is/ and yet not so myche neyther: For he telleth vs not, go to suche a place, and there thou shalt fynde it, or some membres of it/ but he byddeth vs go and telleth vs not whyther/ and sendeth vs to seke, & telleth vs not where/ but telleth vs onely by what token we shall knowe whyther in the place where we happen to seke, there be any such person or no. But now lette vs suppose that he tolde vs the fyrst tale, whyche were yet more to the purpose then the tale that he telleth vs now. And yet bycause he maketh vs hys tale so playne by the sample of the soule/ let vs putte hym agayne for our parte some sample of some symple soule/ some good merchaunt that were fallen in company wyth frere Barns in the house of hys secret hostes at the sygne of the botell at Botolfes wharfe, and fyndynge hym walkynge in a mert, chauntes gowne wyth a redde Myllayne bonet, and not knowyng that he were ronne out of relygyon/ but wenyng that he were an honeste man tolde hym that he were goyng toward Excester/ and for as mych as he muste cary money wyth hym, he wolde fayne fynde some good company that were goynge thyther/ by whome he myghte be bothe conuayed the ryght waye & also go the more sure: For he hadde herde that there were in many innes many loyterynge felowes, that were false shrewes & yet semed as honeste & as trew as he/ whych fals shrewes wold fayne them selfe to be merchauntes & saye they were goynge thyderwarde to/ but when they were goten in credence & taken into company then vsed to lede men out of ye way & robbe them & kyll them to. [Ppiv] Now yf frere Barns wold say to thys man, ye be happy that ye haue met wyth me/ for I wyll sende you to an inne, where ye shall be sure and neuer fayle to fynde some honest trew merchauntes that are thyderwarde/ and than wolde sende hym to a certayne place whyche he wolde name hym. If thys merchaunt whan he had hartely thanked Barns and were goyng very glad of hys chaunce in metyng with thys good man, by whose sendynge he sholde now be sure of good com- panye in hys iourney, sholde happen yet to remember hym selfe a lytell ferther as soone as he came oute at dore/ and theruppon steppe in agayne & saye: But mayster merchaunt I praye you tell me yet one thynge, that I had lyke a fole forgoten before to aske you. In the inne ys ye sende me to where I shall be sure to fynde these honest trewe men that are goynge towarde Excester, are there not also somtyme some suche false shrewes as I tolde you of/ that make as though they were honest trewe merchauntes and goynge thyder/ tyll they may make men byleue them/ and whan they be onys goten in company then lede theym wronge and robbe them, and kyll them? To thys questyon yf Barns tolde hym there as he telleth vs here, and sayde, yes mary syr that there be, not onely somtyme, but alwaye not a fewe suche loyterynge in the same inne, that lye in awayte to trayne men to them, and after bytraye them and destroye theym/ than wolde the man saye mary syr than I praye you tell me how I maye knowe the tone sorte fro the tother. Wherunto yf Barns sholde tell hym as he now telleth vs: Nay brother I can tell the no ferther/ but thys I wyll warraunt the, that though there are as alwaye there are in the place that I send the to, many such false theuys/ and but very few of those trew men that I tolde the of/ yet some such trewe men are there alwaye there/ but how thou shalt knowe whych they be, & dyscerne them fro the theuys, that can I not tell the/ but that thou mayest as wel be there deceyued in the mysse takynge of them, as thou haste nowe be deceyued in the mysse takynge of me/ whome thou takeste for a merchaunt, and yet am I a frere. When Barns had onys tolde the man thys tale, wolde not the man tell hym agayne/ mary than god amercy for ryghte noughte. For now am I neuer the nere/ but thou leueste me as wyse as thou foundeste me/ and so shall I the to. And therupon wold he take his leue honestely & byd Barns fare well fole. [Ppi] Now the tale that he telleth vs, is yet myche more false and myche more vncertayne. For he telleth not vs so mych as the name of the place, wherin we shall be sure to fynde any of the chyrch/ but byd- deth vs go take ys scrypture wyth vs and therwith wandre about and aduenture, tyll we happen vppon some place, in whyche we fynde some man that doth preache vs the worde of god / that is to say declare vs that same scrypture trewly, for well ye wote he wyll agree none other thynge to be the worde of god, sauynge the scrypture onely/ and then where so euer we happen to fynde any man that expowneth it and declareth it trewly wythout any dampnable dremes of men/ and where we se that yt ys well of the hearers recey- ued, & also where we se good workes that do openly agre wyth the doctryne of the gospell, these be good and sure tokens, wherby that we may iudge that there be some men of holy chyrche there. Fyrste wolde I wytte what he meaneth by sure tokens, whether he meane only tokens & sygnes wherby we may coniecture that some of the chyrche be there though we knowe not whyche they be as we maye by a sygne of a grene garlande, perceyue that there is wyne in the house though we knowe not where aboute the celler is, or ellys that we may so surely knowe yt, that we can not be deceyued therin/ as we be sure by the smoke and the sparcles that there is fyre in the chymeney. If he meane of the fyrste fashyon of sure tokenynge, then is yt no sure sygne and token but an unsure gesse, and coniecture, for there is peraduenture no wyne in that house at all/ but the wyne dronken vppe, and the garland hange styll, and then hadde the wine or the ale by the grene garland or an ale pole haue ben for frere Barons a better sample and more mete for his mater, then the sample of the soule knowen to be in the body by the sygnes and tokens of herynge, spekyng, syght, and smellyng, and such thynges as the body can not do but when the soule is in yt. And also what am I then the nere yf I may wene there be in that company some of the chyrch, and yet peraduenture there be none, nor myche the nere neyther by Barns chyrch though there be some of theym there in dede as ye sliall se sone after. Now yf he meane on the seconde maner that by these tokens that we here the worde of god well and truely taught by the preacher, and se yt well receyued of the hearers, [Ppiv] and good gospell workes wrought among people/ we may be very sure that there be some of the chyrche in that company, why shold Barons say as he sayth here, that we can not be sure whyche they be? For yf yt may be surely knowen by those tokens, that some of theym be there/ then muste of reason those tokens make vs moste sure of those persons, in whome we se them. And yf they can not make vs sure of them, in whom we se them, they can not make vs sure as it semeth of them in whome we se theym not. For when oure sauyour sayde of hypo- cryte heretyques ye shall know them by theyr frutes, he ment that ye sholde perceyue the same persons for heretyques and hypocrytes by the euyll fruts of theyr false doctrine, that vnder a cloke of vertuouse lyuynge and clennesse they shold secretly sow and set forth false heresyes contrary to the knowen doctryne that hym selfe hadde taught his catholyke chyrch, and that they sholde also be perceyued by the frute of euyll workes, wyth whych he wold, yf men toke hede & wached them we them do) cause them to be deprehended and taken, and theyr maskers taken of and theyr hypocrisye to be discouered. But Cryste ment not that the tokens founde in one person shold leue vs vnsure of hym, and only make vs sure that some herytyque and hypocryte were there a Barons here sayth by his tokens we shall be sure that som chyrche be there, but I can not be sure whyche person is any of them. Now yf he sayde this onely in whole great regyons his reason myghte haue som place, for of a great multytude semynge good men, I maye well reken that though some be hypocrytes, all be not so. But whyle Barons sayth where so euer I fynde these tokens, there I maye be sure ys some of his chyrch wythout spot or wryncle are amonge theym, the place may be so smale, and the companye so few that I could not be sure, but myght well fere ys though I se suche good tokens in some of theym, yet of that clene and pure chyrch of frere Barons there were neuer one among them. Yet aske I frere Barons farther, howe proueth he that where so euer we fynde these tokens, we shall be sure that though we can not tell whyche they be, yet sure we may be that of his holy chyrche some in that company there be? In the answere vnto this, he putteth a dyfference in dede betwene the token of the good workes, and the token of the [Ppi] trew preach- ynge. For as for the workes though they be very trew gospell workes, they be he sayth no perfyte sure sygnes but onely tokens wherby we may coniecture & deme well but not be sure, bycause they may be fayned by hypocrysye/ but the tother token of the preachynge, that token is he sayeth a perfyte token, so that in that companye where so euer we se that happen, we haue a perfayt token that there be in that company some men of Chrystes holy chyrche. And this he proueth as ye haue herd by the authoryte of the prophete Esaie and of saynte Poule, and by the sample of saynte Peter in the tenth of the Actes, where at the preachynge of saynte Peter the holy goost fell downe on them all. But as for that ensample proueth not Barns purpose. For yt proueth no farther, but that some tyme yt dothe so, where the hearers be suche as so do receyue yt/ but Barns muste proue vs that yt is euer so. But this is frere Barons logyque, and Tyndales, and Luthers also, and so is yt of theym all, vppon a particulare they boldely conclude an vnyuersall. Nowe as touchynge the wordes spoken of god by the mouth of the prophete Esaie, <2My worde shall not retourne agayne to mefrustrate, butyt>2 <2shall do all thynge that I wyll, andyt shall prosper in those thynges vnto the>2 <2whyche I dyd send yt:.>2 What do the wordes proue for Barons purpose? If he proue vs his purpose by these wordes, he muste proue vs fyrst that the word of god, wherof the prophete Esaie there speketh, is none other worde but onely the preachynge of the scrypture. For that is the worde whyche frere Barons here speketh of And therfore in the prophet Esaie the word may sygnyfye that worde of god, of whyche worde saynte  Iohan sayth, In the begynnynge was the worde, that is to wyt the onely begoten son of god, as yt there sygnyfyeth in dede, & not the word wryten in scrypture, though ys of that word be mych wryten in scrypture. Then seeth euery lerned man that those wordes of Esaie nothynge proue the purpose of frere Barons, though yt myght there sygnyfye also the worde wryten in scrypture. For yt proueth ye wote wyll not for the preachynge of the worde of god wryten in scrypture, yf yt be full and not euydent, whyther the prophete spake of the scrypture or not. [Ppiv] But now who so euer loke vppon the place in the byble he shall se that Lyre, and the ordynary glose, and the interlynyare glose also, do declare that though the wordes maye be expowned of the scryp- ture: the prophete speketh these wordes properly of the worde of god, that is goddes onely bygoten sone. And the very texte playnely sheweth vppon all the cyrcumstaunces, that the prophete there prophecyeth in the persone of the father after this maner. As though he wolde say, My worde, that is to wyt my son whom I haue sent into the worlde for the redempcyon of man, shall not retourne agayne to me voyde or empty. For he shall bryng wyth hym the fathers oute of Lymbus. But he shall do all thynge that I wyfl. For he shall teache both by wordes ensample and myracles, both the Iewes and the Paynyms, and make one chyrche of both, and shall in fulfyllynge of my wyll, humble hym selfe vnto the deth, euen the deth of the crosse. And he shall prosper in those thynges vnto the whyche I sent hym. For hym self shall gloryousely ryse agayne fro deth, and ascende vppe to me, and here sytte in eternall glory on my ryght hande, one egall god wyth the holy goste and me, and shall bryng hyther also a gloryouse chyrche out of erthe, to reygne wyth vs here in heuen. Of this word therfore spake the prophete, that is to say of the sonne of god, and of his retournynge agayne to hys father/ of whose goynge forthe fro the father and retournynge agayne to the father, wryteth the prophete Dauid. His goyng forth is from the hygh heuen, and his meatyng is vnto the height thereof/ and is not properly ment by the preachynge of the worde wryten in scrypture. And therfore as I tolde you yt nothynge proueth the purpose of frere Barons. And yet ouer all this, yf the prophete spake there of the worde wryten in scrypture, and of none other: yet wolde it not proue that in euery place where yt were preached, yt sholde nedes take suche holde / in some folke, that yt sholde of necessyte make in euery suche place some very members of the chyrch pure and clene wyth- oute spot or wrincle. For god hath none other wyll for any thynge by Barns proued yet, ys his word shold take such holde in euery place then in euery man/ but lyke as his word doth his wyll & retourned not agayne to god voyd, yf yt take hold in some men that heare yt, though yt take not hold in euery man that hereth [Qqi] yt/ so doth yt his wyll and retourneth not to hym voyde, yf yt take holde in some place where yt is preached, though yt take not holde in euery place. And that it shold not in euery place take hold/ appereth by the wordes of our sauyour, where he sayth to hys dyscyples whom he he, In to what house so euer ye entre, fyrste saye ye peace be to thys house. And then yf the sonne of peace be there / your peace shall reste vppon hym, or ellys your peace shall retourne agayne vnto your selfe. In whyche oure sauyour sheweth vs, that yf a good man preche well, though there were not one in all hys audyence that wold be ys better for it/ yet shold it not be voyde/ for the meryte sholde at the leste rebounde backe vppon hym selfe, but not of necessyte take holde in euery audyence, so farre forth that it myghte be preched vnto an hole cyty, and take none holde but be reiected. For whyche cause our sauyour sayed also to those whome he sent to preche: yf any cytye refuse you and wyll not receyue your doctryne, wype of the duste of your fete at your partynge in wytnesse agaynste them/ & I tell you trouth, the cytyes Sodome & Gomorre shal in the day of dome, be more easyly handeled then they. And thus good readers ye se that these wordes of ys prophete Esaye wyll in no wyse auayle frere Barns/ but vtterly they leue hys purpose all vnproued. Now hath he than but one ancre more vnto that shippe & that is the wordes of saynt Poule, where he sayth, Fayth cometh by & herynge cometh by the worde of god. But surely thys ancre lyeth to farre aloufe fro thys shyppe and hath neuer a cable to fasten her to it. For neuer herd I yet two thynges so losely knyt to gyther. What maner an argument doth frere Barons call thys? Fayth cometh by herynge, and heryng cometh by the word of god/ ergo in euery place where the worde of god is herd, must nedes be some faythfull men. Though there were neuer man faythfull wythout herynge of the worde of god, as in dede there is not ordynaryly in actuall fayth/ maye it not be for all that that there maye be many that here it to gyther in one place, of all whome neuer one wyll be faythfull, but haue the fayth in derysyon? Thys argument is so folysshe that I meruayle frere Barons wolde be so fonde to brynge it forth. [Qqiv] And thus good chrysten readers here ye se now to what poynt frere Barons is brought, with his sygnes & tokens, wherwyth he promysed vs to make vs knowe where were some membres of hys holy pure clene chyrch, wherin he confesseth hym selfe that some of his sygnes and tokens be but faynt and vnsuffycyent. And than that one whych he sayth is perfayte, ye se so vnperfytely proued, that of all the scripturs that he bryngeth, there is not one syllable serueth him. And yet haue I shewed you also, that yf he proued all ys he sayth/ yet were all hys techyng of knowlege where some of the chyrch be, wythout the knowlege who they be, a very frutelesse knowlege, wherof the knower coulde neuer take spyrytuall profyte. But now good chrysten readers, to the entent that the foly of frere Barons inuencyon may the more clerely appere concernyng his tokens with whiche he techeth vs to know his vnknowen chyrch/ let vs yet a lytell consyder hys lesson better. Let vs suppose that some good honest merchauntes wyfe, a woman honest of her conuersacyon, beynge by some shrewed gosseppes of hers brought in aquayntaunce wyth some false wyly heretike, had bygonne to fall in some dowte and fere, leste the fayth that she had before lerned of the chyrche, concernyng the seuen sacramentes, & prayeng to sayntes, and pray- eng for soules, and many thynges mo, were vntrew and daungerouse to lyue and dye in/ and that she were not yet so farre fallen to the wronge syde, but that she stode styll in a dowte and in a mamerynge whyche way she myghte take, and fayne wold take the beste. And beyng thus brought into thys doute, had by some proctour of the euangelycall fraternyte, secretely broughte vnto her frere Barons boke. After whych secretely redde ouer by her self in a corner, for many thynges that she partely lyked, partely mysse lyked in the redynge, perceyuynge that he was than vppon hys passage ouer the se agayne, longed sore to speke wyth hym selfe ere he wente/ and theruppon beynge by some good brother and syster broughte to gyther where there were none present but suche as were towarde the fraternyte, after solempne salutacyons and gostely gretynges of the congregacyon <2in osculo charitatis,>2 she wolde breke her mynde vnto hym, & shew hym that by the good gracyouse mocyone of such a man or suche a woman, she had bygonne to entre in to the con- syderacyon of her soule helthe/ [Qqi] and not to be so neglygent as she had before ben, to byleue euery prestes tale that standeth vp in a pulpet, but to seke some sure way how she may surely be taught the treuth & not deceiued. And for bycause she had redde his boke, wher in she founde dyuers doutes, of whyche she wolde fayne yf he myght haue taryed be sumwhat satisfyed, and also haue vsed hys gostely counsayle for her ferther instruccyon and sure settyng forth in the waye of the treuth/ syth god had so dysposed that he sholde so soone depart that she coulde not haue that full frute and comforte of hys persone, she wolde not for the shorte tyme of that theyr present assemble cumber hym wyth her questyons, whyche were lyke to be but fryuolouse & womannysshe, nor be a let and impedyment vnto the feruent desyres of the other bretherne & systers of the congregacyon, wherof euery one longed to be comforted with his gostely communycacyon at that tyme specyally, whyche was as it semed the laste in whyche they were lykely to be fedde wyth the plesaunt conuersacyon of his bodyly presence. And therfore she wold no more desyre of hym for the tyme, but that he wold as our sauyour when hym self wente hys way, dyd sende his holy spyryt to teche his apostles, & hys apostles to teche the wyde wyld ignoraunt world/ so maye it please you good father Barns whyle ye depart hense, to assygne some meane & shew me some way, by whych I maye be sure all way to haue some good gracious spyrituall man, some trew member of the very chirch, of whom I may be sure to lerne the very trew fayth, that our sauyour fyrste by hyrn selfe, & after by his holy spyryt taught his blessed apostles, & by them the world that wold lerne/ & yet by ys same spyryt techeth his very holy chyrch styll, as ye shew to my symple mynde full well & clerkely in your goodly processe, wherin ye declare whych is the very chyrch. I beseche you therfore do no more for me for thys onys, but leste I be when ye be gone deceyued by some false techer, set me now before your goynge in some way, wherby I may be sure euer of a trew. To thys wold frere Barns of lykelyhed make her great congratula- cyon, & tell all the congregacyon that they haue all greate cause to ioy and reioyce in the lorde/ whose hygh mercy hath so goodly bygon to pour in the lyuely lycoure of hys grace into the dyenge harte of that good syster, and hathe thereby so reuyued it wyth the warme breth of hys holy spyryte, that he maketh yt begynne to quycken & loke [Qqiv] vp, and to longe to byholde and se the bryght sonne of hys veryte wryten in the holy scrypture of god, & to rubbe her eyen and shake of the false ymagynacyons of all the dampnable dremys of menne/ and that hym self is very sory that he can not accordyng to his hope that brought hym hyther haue hys euangelycall doctryne accepted of the kynge and openly receyued in the realme, whyche he so sore hath trauayled to regender agayne vnto god in the trew fayth/ but is by the menes of the false scrybes and pharaseys reiected and rebuked, and sauynge for the kynges saufe conducte, sholde haue standen in parell to be burned and hys bokes wyth hym. Whyche saufe conducte bycause it was graunted but for.vi. weekes now more thenne almost passed, for whyche cause he chaunged hys notable monstrouse apparayle that he came in wyth, and shoue hys berde and wente lyke a merchaunt, that he myghte be the lesse merked ln taryenge after the saufe conducte and vysytynge the congregacyon, wythout whose lyberall ayde and almoise he shold neyther haue ben able to sustayne and bere, nor to recouer and gete agayne the money that he spent about hys prentynge of hys booke and hys comynge hyther and goynge ouer agayne. Wherfore syth he maye not saufely tary here, but muste excepte he wolde be burned go gete hym ouer agayne/ both that good syster and all the holy congregacyon, and hym selfe also whyche is as sory to parte from theym as they from hym, muste conforme theyr wylles on all sydes vnto the wyll of god/ and as for the absence bodyly, he wold recompense vppon hys part, wyth beynge myndefull of them in hys prayour to the lorde, and trusted they wolde in lyke wyse do/ and so wolde he praye theym to do, praye to the lorde for hym/ & so sholde eyther parte by theyr prayeng eche for other, accordyng to the counsayle of saynt Iamys, myche more eche profyt other, then yf our lady & all the sayntes in heuyn yfthere be any there, wolde praye for them bothe, bycause the sayntes be all departed hense & dede and be no lenger of our funccyon. And yet wolde he for hys parte to theyr ferther consolacyon, make and sende them ouer some new bokes of the euangelycall doctryne in theyr mother tonge, for the better edyfyenge of theyr sely symple soules. And thys wolde he saye for the comforte of the hole fraternyte and sororyte in generall. And then for answere to ys good syster in specyall, he wold peraduenture [Qqi] aduyse her to take the new testament of Tyndales translacyon, and other bokes of his, and of his owne, and of George Ioy/ and therin sholde she fynde the trouth. Wherunto yf she sayde that she might not for fere of her husbandes losse and her own parell, aduenture to kepe these bokes by cause of the kynges proclamacyon/ he wolde tell her and persuade her playnely, that the bokes of the scrypture she must nedes kepe spyght of all the prynces proclamacion to dye therfore. (For that he wryteth playnely all redy, but as for ye tother bokes, he layeth not expressely so sore a charge vppon them) wherfore he wold enioyne her at the lest wise to kepe the scrypture in englysh, and tell her that therin she sholde lerne all trouth. But then is yt lykely that she myght say, that the scrypture is hard for her to vnderstand/ & therfore shew him ys the thyng whyche she desyreth of hym, is to know of hym (syth hym self goth away) how she myght be sure to haue a good trew teacher, that myght in euery necessarye poynte of bylyefe, expowne the scrypture and teache yt her trewly. Then wolde he peraduenture assygne her some specyall spedde man in the sectes, and tell her she may lerne of hym. But then were she lykely to say that he myght happely be dreuen awaye for fere of persecucyon/ ye or peraduenture dye byfore she shold be fully lerned and instructed in the necessarye trouthes by the scrypture - whyche she coulde not thynke her selfe to be, tyll she dy suche trouth vnderstande all the places of scryptures that eyther made for yt or semed to saye agaynste. And therfore wolde she fayne know nowe of hym, by what meane she myghte alwaye be sure of a trew teacher. Then wolde he peraduenture tell her, that who so euer pre truely the worde of god, accordynge to that scrypture/ she myght be sure that he were a trew preacher, and of hym she myght surely lerne. But vnto that she were lykely to say: Father Barons, this same scrypture is very hard/ and in the moste necessary poyntes dyuerse preachers expowne yt diuersly, some for the sacramentes, & some agaynste theym, some for the vowe of chastyte and some agaynste yt, some for good workes, and some for fayth alone, some for purgatorye & some agaynste yt, and so in suche other thynges/ so that excepte I may be sure of the trew teacher, vnto whose credence I [Qqiv] may truste in the construccyon, I shall alway remayn styll in lyke doute, and not vnderstande the scrypture. And therfore shall I not be able by the scrypture to trye the trew prechour, but must by ys knowledge of the trew preachour trye whyche is the vnderstandynge of the scrypture. And therfore I wolde haue the trew preachour to teache me truely to vnderstande the same scrypture. And for that intente wold I know hym, to thend that I myght by that I know hym for a trew preacher, be sure that by his teachyng I do not damnably mysse vnderstand the scrypture, but am truely taught yt. And now you tell me that who so teche the scripture trewly is a teacher. And then muste I by this tale of yours, brynge wyth me to hym or ellys I can not knowe hym, the thyng ys I can not gete but yf I know hym fyrst. What were frere Barns here lykely to say to this woman that myghte resonably satysfye her? In good fayth I can not say, takyng an vnknowen chyrch as he doth. For yf he wolde saye, good doughter the goodnes of god shall euer suffycyently prouyde you a trewe teacher, as he prouyded saynte Peter for Centurio: she myght tell hym that Cen- turio was warned by god that he was a trew precher / and yf I hadde suche warnynge of any that shall come, then were I satysfyed. If Frere Barons wolde saye, when so euer the trewe preacher com- meth, ye shall knowe hym and perceyue hys doctryne to be trewe, by the inwarde vnccyon of the holy goste, that shall teache you inwardly as sayth saynt Iohan/ for as oure lorde sayeth: They that are myne heare my voyce, and heare not the voyce of a straunger / and I knowe myne and myne knowe me / and of this haue we a sample of Eunuchus, whyche as he was redynge in the scrypture and coulde not vnderstande yt by hym selfe, god prouyded that saynte Philyppe shold go by hym and teche hym, and a non Eunuchus byleued hym and was crystened/ & howe dyd Eunuchus knowe that Philyppe was a trew preacher, but by the inwarde vnccyon and inspyracyon of god? and so good syster shall you be moued inwardely to perceyue the trew scrypture: surely me thynketh that vnto this the woman were well lykely to answere hym, that one ensample at one tyme of one mannys dede, as Eunuchus was, geueth vs not for euery man in euery time a generall rule. For though he were therin not deceyued then/ yet some other that wold so [Qqi] redly now take for ys trew preachour, euery man ys cam fyrst to hand, myght be sore deceyued therin, and wene that god gaue hym the mocyon when yt came of the suggestyon of his enymy. For at that tyme yt was well lykely, that Eunuchus hadde herd of Cryste, and of his lyuynge, and of his myracles, and of his deth, and of his resurreccyon to lyfe, and such thynges as were then done and passed byfore the metynge hadde betwene saynt Philyp and hym. And theri was that prophecye wyth dyuerse other, whych Phylyppe there expowned vnto hym, so playne and open with his doctryne, his deth, his rysyng agayne, and his myracles, and his other conuersacyon in his lyfe, so clere to make yt open that Cryste was he that was comen to saue the worlde and teache the trouth and sholde and ought to be byleued that god inwardely workynge wyth those good outwarde occasyons he reioyced hyghly the metynge wyth Crystes dyscyple that hadde so well knowen hym, and ben so conuersaunt wyth hym. But nowe hath god establyshed his fayth and his doctryne by the space of.xv. hundred yere, and sendeth not lyghtely any suche one man to preache and teache as was saynte Phylippe, that can in teachyng make the scrypture so playne and open to me, as saynt Philyppe dyd vnto Eunuchus/ nor that hath lerned yt so fully and so surely, as the postles hadde of the mouth of the great mayster Cryste. And therfore shold I not haue so great occasion to byleue and to take for the trewe teacher any one man that wolde constre me the scrypture nowe, namely constrewynge yt in such wyse many of owne felowes, professyng the fayth of Cryste as he doth, wyll say that he constreweth yt false/ whyche happed not in the construccyons that saynte Phylyppe made Eunuchus. And therfore though our sauyour say, that such as are his do heare his voyce, and not the voyce of straungers: he semeth to meane there in to geue vs warnynge to do so, that is to wyt, that we shold heare and obay hym, and not other agaynste hym. For who so wyll heare heretyques and not hym, be none of his. And that the vnccyon and inwarde inspyracion of god, techeth vs and maketh vs perceyue, that is very trew. For god inwardly worketh with the will of man walkyng with god, in well vsynge and applyenge conuenyent occasyons [Qqiv] towarde yt outwardely geuen by god. But yt meaneth not that by and by vppon euery thynge that we heare, we shold wythout consyderacyon geue our selfe to the consent of the tone syde or the tother, in mater of eternall deth or euerlastynge lyfe/ and thynke that what so euer we forthwyth vnaduysely lyste to bylyefe is the vnccyon of the spyryt and inspyracyon of god. For god byddeth vs that we shold not be lyght of bylyefe, nor by and by byleue euery spyryte/ but proue the spyrytes whether they be of god. And then yf we be not only symple as douys, but also prudent and wyse as serpentes / his inwarde vnccyon wyll worke wyth our dylygence / but not yf we be slouthfull, or wyll be willyngely begyled, and suffer the deuyll make vs madde folys. And therfore he sayth not byleue at aduenture / but byddeth vs take hede and be well ware, that we be not begyled by false prophetes, ys wyll come to vs in such wyse that outwardly they shall seme shepe, and inwardely be rauenouse wolues. To this wold frere Barns say. For soth dere doughter in the lorde, those wolues be these monkes, and freres, and prestes that be the comen preachers of this carnall chyrch, that they falsely call the catholyque chyrch, whych do teche bysyde the scrypture dampnable dremes of men, and make men byleue that dome sacramentes, and ceremonyes, and good workes, sholde do good to the soule: whych false prechers wyth all theyr carnall chyrch that hath now ben this .viii. hundred yere ledde out of the ryght way, we new preachers of the very trew chyrche whych is spyrytuall, do now by the worde of god wryten in holy scrypture conuycte and reproue. To this were she well lykely to say agayne/ veryly father Barns here ye bryng me now euen to the very poynt. For syth that the apostles of Cryste be gonne that lerned of his owne mouth, & no one man lefte now nor neuer synnes theyr tyme, whome men myght so surely take for an vndouted teacher as them: yt semeth that god hath lefte the sure credence of doctryne in no one man, but in his whole chyrch. And therfore that man whych agreeth in doctryne with the very chyrche, I maye reken sure that his doctryne is very trew in the necessary exposycyon of scrypture/ not for hys owne authoryte or suerty of his person, nor for the suertye that I can haue that his doctryne agreeth well wyth scrypture/ for I can not know that but by that I know hym for [Rri] a trew techer: but for ys surty that I haue that the doctryne of the hole catholyke very trew chyrch, wyth whiche hys techyng agreeth, can not be false. For yf it myght, then were there no sure trewe chyrch at all/ & that must there nedes be as all sortes of sectes agre as I here saye. And therfore this trew chyrche beyng knowen, yf you shew me how I may get a techer whose techyng agreeth wyth that/ then dare I byleue hym well/ & els it wyll be harde for any suche as I am, to thynke with reason that she sholde gyue sure credence to any man, or that she can be by the scripture sure of so many sectes of contrary consterers, which one constreweth trewly when all the tother say nay and be all redy to swere that he constreweth false. And therfore good father Barns wyll she say, I lyke it well that ye declare so well at length which is the very chyrch, bycause we shold not be deceyued with the false prophetes of the fals chyrch, of whom Cryst bode vs take hede & beware. For the very trew chyrche onys knowen/ we shall as our sauyour sayth yf we take good hede, know these false prophetes by theyr frutes. For loke they neuer so symplely & speke they neuer so sayntely/ yet yf theyr lyuynge or theyr techyng be contrary to the doctryne of the very trew holy chyrch, it is than very trew that theyr frute is rott false, and them selfe false prophetes of some false chyrch / & for all theyr shepyshe semblaunce outwardly, ryght rauenouse woluys are they witbin. And therfore good father Barns I wolde haue wyshed that ye had taken a lytell more payne in declaryng and makyng open by what meanes the very trew holy chyrch whiche ye do assygne, myghte be perceyued and knowen/ to the entent that by the knowlege of her & of her prechers whych must nedes haue credence and be knowen for trew techers, bycause they be membres of her that is trew, and theyr doctryne agreeth with hers, whom god wyll not suffer to saye dampnably false, we may perceyue & reproue the false prechers of all other chyrches. For I am sure good father Barons, ys whan ye went about to gyue vs tokens wherby we myght haue some knowledge of this chyrche, ye perceyued well that of necessyte it is a thyng ys nede were to be knowen for the good that maye folow yf it be knowen, & the harme that wolde ensew yf it remayned vnknowen. For ellys ye wolde haue taken no labour about it, to seke vs out suche tokens by whyche we myghte haue knowledge of it. And surely me thynketh that the chyefe commodyte [Rriv] that I can haue of the knowledge of it is thys, that I may when I knowe her, be lerned and instructed by her, & be surely nuryshed by her in the spyrytuall fode. For holy chyrch is our mother, as ye call her your self / and ther- fore is it she whych engendreth vs to god, & which both with mylke and strenger mete, must fede vs & foster vs vp/ & none other nuryce is ther by whom we can be truely & faythfully brought vp. And ther- fore yf we myghte not knowe her/ we were in daynger eyther to be hunger storuen, or ellys in stede of holsome fode to be fed wyth poysen. But now peraduenture frere Barons wold answere to thys, that it maketh no mater thoughe we knowe not her. It is inough that she knowe vs, & come & geue vs good & faythfull fode, and preche truely to vs, though we knowe not that it is she. But vnto this the woman wold I wene neuer stycke for an answere, but wolde shortely tell hym ys he sayed soth, yf euery man were as a yonge babe ys lyeth swadeled in a cradle, to whom onely ys mother myght haue recourse to fede her owne chylde. But now be we (wolde she saye) suche as be thus farre well warned, ys not onely our mother holy chyrch is onely she that can & wyll fede vs well, & wyll gladly offer to geue vs good holsom fode/ but that also there be a great mayny of other wycked women whyche go about to poysen vs / & whych bycause they know that we be well aduertysed that they so entend, & that onely our mother wyll fede vs well, ech of them laboreth by all the meanys that theyr wyly malyce can deuyse, to make vs mysse take our mother, & ech of them calleth her selfe our mother, and laboreth to be byleued/ & out of one selfe good ground of holy scrypture, both our very mother bryngeth & offreth vs holsome frute, and these false fayned mothers out of the selfe same grounde of scrypture, by theyr false handelynge brynge vs & offer vs poysened frute/ & yet so subtylly handeled that it is harde for vs to perceyue eyther by syghte or taste whyche is the good fode and whyche is the poysened, tyll he that taketh it come to hys deth by the infeccyon. But now yf we maye onys knowe whyche of all these is our very mother, then are we saufe and sure. For thanne are we sure that as all the remanaunt wyl gyue vs no meate but nought/ so wyll she gyue vs none but good. And therfore who so loue hys lyfe, wyll take all that she offreth vs/ all though it be bytter and soure in taste and not very se[Rri]mely in syghte/ and refuse all that the tother offer vs, be it neuer so pleasaunt to the eye, nor neuer so delycyous to the mouthe. And I verely thynke that the thynge standynge in such case, our father in heuyn so myghty, so mercyfull, and so wyse as he is and so tenderly louynge hys chyldren as he doth, perceyuynge the perell that myghte and muste nedys falle vppon them by the mysse takynge of some suche false malycyouse woman in stede of our very mother, wyll not leue vs in suche case, but that he wyll cause oure very mother to be well knowen frome all the false counterfetes, to suche as lyste to loke and attende well therto, bothe by tokens of her and also tokens of them. And veryly good father Barons, it semeth that ye sawe thys your selfe full well. For it appereth vppon your wordes, that there is no trew prechour but there as is the very chyrche. For ye shew for a perfayt token of the trew chyrch, that there as is the trewe prechynge there be alwaye some of the trew chyrch. And ye wryte that thys token is perfayt. Now than/ yf where so euer is trewe preachynge, there is alwaye some of the very chyrche/ it muste nedes folowe to my pore wytte that am but a woman, that where so euer be none of the very chyrche, there is no trewe prechynge. And then yf there be no trew prechyng but where there are some of the very chyrch / ye se what nede it is that the very chirch be knowen, to the entent we may be sure where to haue the trewe prechynge/ wythout whyche we can neuer ye wote well lerne the trew fayth, nor truely to be taught to vnderstand the scrypture. Whyche tyll we do/ we be neuer able to iudge whyche precher of so many contraryouse expowneth and declareth it ryght. Now wold frere Barns peraduenture answere her and saye: Therfore haue I shewed you lo by what tokens ye maye perceyue where some of the very chyrche be. But vnto that were she lykely to saye agayne: ye veryly father Barons well fauoredly, for so farre as ye go. But I wolde as I sayde haue wysshed you to haue goone therin somwhat ferther/ whyche I thynke veryly ye wolde haue done yf your laysoure wolde haue serued you. For now of your two tokens, ye tone your self confesseth to be but faynt & insuffycyent, ys is to scrypture / bycause ys though it be well done in euery dowt to [Rriv] deme the beste, yet hypocrysye maye deceyue vs, & make vs take for a good man & a member of the very holy chirch, some false faynynge hypochryte that is a very dede mem- ber of some false chyrche, and a lymme of the very deuyll in dede. And yet ouer thys as well that same vnperfyte token wherby I sholde haue knowledge of the very chyrche, that is to wytte wurkes accordynge to scrypture, as also the tother token that ye call the perfayt token, that is to wyt that in what company so euer I here the worde of god truely preched, that is to wytte the scrypture truely declared wyth out any dampnable dremys of men, there I maye be sure that in that congregacyon be some of the very holy chyrch: bothe these tokens serue but for cunnynge folke that are suffycyently lerned in the vnderstandynge of the scrypture all redy/ and these be they that haue lest nede to knowe the very chyrche. But none of these tokens can serue suche begynners as I am, that haue nede to know the very chyrch, to lerne of her the ryght vnderstandynge of the scryp- ture, bycause she is our very mother as your selfe calleth her. And therfore we haue the nede to knowe her, that we may be bolde to take the fode of doctryne at her hande, bycause we wote wel our very moder wyl gyue vs but good/ where we stande ellys in perell of poysenynge, yf by mysse takyng our mother we take the meate of doctryne at the hande of any of those venemouse harlottes, that conterfete ther contenaunce and wolde we sholde take one of theym for oure mother. And also though the tokens bothe twayne were sure & perfayt for so farre as they go, that is to wytte though that I were sure in dede that in suche a company be some of the very trewe chyrche:. yet syth I can not knowe by them whiche persons of that company they be as ye confesse I can not/ what sholde thys knowledge auayle me? It may peraduenture hynder and hurte me. For yf I dowted lest there were happely no suche trewe membres of the very chyrche in that company/ I wolde be the more ware of any thynge that they sholde teche me. But now whyle though I know not who, yet I wene my self that I know well some of them be trewe/ I maye percase the more boldely and wyth ys lesse fere, take that the false shall offer me for the hope I maye haue, that I haue peraduenture by happe for- tuned vppon that person that is one of the trewe. For why, to vse dyly[Rri]gence and forbere haste, and be ware and byleue not tyll I surely fynde and know the trew/ that were by your wordes vtterly vayne. For ye say I shall neuer know them, nor neuer know farther, but that there be some of them. Now good readers what hath Barons holdyng his heresy of his vnknowen chyrche, what hath he to say more to this woman? In good fayth nothyng that wyll be worth a flye. But the woman may sone fynd more yet to say to hym. For she may saye to hym ferther: yet I remember me now father Barons a nother thyng. Ye wyll that I shall know ys chyrch by the trew declaracyon of scrip- ture. But how shall I be sure whyche be the very bokes of scrypture? For you say playnely that the pystle of saynt Iames is not holy scrypture, and other men say yes. And ye say that ye can proue that pystle false by wordes of saynt Poule/ and then were ye lykele to make me to doute as well of saynt Poule as of saynt Iames. For why shold I better byleue the tone then the tother, whyle they were both Crystes approued apostles? For though ye saye that yt was of old douted by some folke whyther that pystle were wryten of saynte Iames or not:. yet after that doute moued, the whole chyrche hath fermely byleued yt to be his, without any doute of any man in a thousande yere to gether, tyll wythin this.xx. yere. And then as ye say now by that peyce, so may there a nother come and saye by a nother peyce/ and so go aboute to proue euery peyce false by other, where so euer any seme to say any thyng which the wordes of some other part semeth contrary. And then when they shall in this wyse contende & stryue theruppon/ where as ye say I shall by the trew construccyon of the scrypture perceyue where be some of the very trew chyrche: how wyll ye fyrste make me know whych of theym all assygneth me the very trew scrypture? To this when frere Barons wolde answere and falsely bere her in hande that the pystle of saynte Iames hath ben alway douted of And that such bokes as haue ben alway by the whole chyrch taken and accepted for holy scrypture, of those may she be sure that they be holy scrypture/ for god geueth his chyrche that gyfte, that yt can trewely dyscerne the wordes of god the wordes of man: this wyll I wote well frere Barons saye. For this sayth not onely hys olde mayster saynte Austayne, oute of whose rule and relygyon frere Barons is ronne away/ but his new mayster al[Rriv]so frere Luther, after whom he runneth out of relygyon and out of rule now. But when Barns wolde answere her so: then wold she sone brynge hym to the bay, and tell hym that the chyrche by whyche she knoweth whych is the scrypture, is not any vnknowen chyrch/ but the knowen catholyque chyrche of all crysten nacyons remaynyng in the comen well knowen fayth. And then syth she may boldely byleue that chyrch in ys gret point, and lerneth that lessen of none other chyrch but that, whyche is the fyrste lesson of all the fayth, and wheruppon as frere Barons agreeth all the whole remanaunt dependeth, syth that by hym there is nothynge any sure trewth but yfyt be wryten in scrypture: she maye therfore wolde she saye take that chyrche for the teacher of all the remanaunt/ and hym for a trew techer, whose fayth agreeth wyth that chyrche/ and those folke whose fayth is contrary to that chyrche, whych shall sone be knowen, for they be forthwith accused and reproued vppon theyr false preachinges herd, them she may and wyll take for the false techers and false expowners of scrypture, tyll father Barons can geue her better knoweledge of his holy trewe chyrche vnknowen, wherof she is neuer the nere yet:. Lo thus myght a wyse woman that coulde no more but rede englyshe, rebuke and confounde frere Barons vppon the syght of his owne ryall processe, in whych he wold now teache vs to know whyche is the very chyrche. How be yt to confounde hym, we shall not greatly nede to seke one that can rede. For what hath he to say to a pore woman that coulde- not rede? If his owne secrete hostesse the good wyfe of the botell of Botolphs warfe, that but yf she be better amended halteth both in body and soule, were in the congregacyon present at this commenyng/ and then wold hympe forth among them and say, by saynt Malkyn father Barons all your tokens of the very trew chyrch wyll not stand me in the stede of a tauern token nor of a mustarde token neyther. For I may for the tone be sure of a new baken bune, and for the tother I maye be sure of a pot of mustarde/ but for your two tokens of youre holy chyrche, I can not be sure of one ferthyng worth of trew doctrine for them both. For how shall I perceyue that any trew members of your holy chyrche in [Rri] onely whom ye say is the trew fayth be present in company, when your tokens be the trew prechyng of scripture, and the good leuyng after the scrypture/ how can I gete any good by those two tokens when I can not rede at all: what could frere Barons say to his hostesse here? Surely nothynge hath he/ but sholde in the ende be fayne to fall to the desteny of goddes eleccyon, and say as he sygnyfyeth and somwhat mutereth in his boke/ but then sholde he be fayne to speke yt out and sa when they come to the prechyng, all those that are electe of god shall be secretely moued and taught inwardely, and shall by the instyncte of the spyryt of god though they know not whether the person be good or no that preacheth, perceyue yet the trewe worde of god vppon the herynge / and shall vnderstande yt as Tyndale sayth that the egle perceyued her pray. And the tother sorte whome god hath not chosen, though they heare yt shall not vnderstand yt/ but whether the preacher be good or badde, they shallbe neuer the better, nor shall not dyscerne the trew preacher fro the false, but be deceyued by the false and not perceyue the trew for any thynge that they can do. And therfore euery man wyll Barons say that shall be saued, shall attayne the saluacion by the only eleccyon of the lord, wythout any parte of theyr owne deuoyre any thynge doynge therto, lyue they neuer so long. For though that all be called/ yet onely those that god hath elected shall be saued/ and shall as our sauyour sayth be but a very few. And any thynge that the tone sorte or the tother shall or can worke, shall neyther helpe towarde nor froward/ but eleccyon and desteny shall do all to gether. And here this ancre in conclusyon shall he be fayn to caste out/ wyth whych when he wold wene to stay the shepe, he draweth it quyte vnder the water. For I wene his hostesse wolde sone haue sayde somewhat therto. For I wote well she is nat tong tayed, I haue herd her talke my selfe. She wolde I wene therfore haue sayde vnto hym thus mych at the leste wyse: why father Barns, when god calleth vppon vs all, and we come to gether at his callyng, & my neyghbour & I come both to chyrch with one purpose to lerne the right way to heuen/ wold ye make me wene that god were so parcyall, that wythout any dyfference of cause bytwene her and me, I beynge as well wyllenge to lerne to please him as she, that when I haue at his callynge folowed hym so farre as well as she, & wyth some [Rriv] what more payne to, for I halt ye wote well/ he wyll for all that I halt make her perceyue ys trouth and go forth farther wyth hym, tyll he brynge her to heuen/ & leue me styll in darkenesse and ignoraunce, and let me fall into hell, for none other cause but onely for he lyste to chose her, and leue me vnchosen? If he gaue her more then me for his onely pleasure, I could fynde no faut. But mary syr ys he wold geue her all & me not onely nothynge, but also condempne me to perpetuall fyre bycause hym selfe wold not cause me to perceyue the trouth/ and no cause why he wolde not, but bycause he wolde not chose me, and no cause why he wolde not chose me, but onely bycause he wolde not: in good fayth I take god for so good that I can neuer byleue you therin. Yet me thynketh that these comen preachers whom you dysprayse, say better. For the tell vs that it is in scri ture that god wolde all folke sholde be saued and come to the knowledge of the trouth yf they wyll them self/ & that therfore by one meane or other he calleth all. But he choseth only those that will come and here and lerne and do therafter/ and who wolde so do, he sawe ere he made them, and therfore euen then chose them. But for bycause they be but few in respecte of them that wyll not, therfore there are few chosen though many be called / and not bycause god wyll call all, and then of those that come & are wyllynge to lerne, Wyll cause some to be taught and some not, wythoute other cause or dyfference, but bycause hym selfe lyste to chese the tone and refuse the tother/ as though yt were an euyll mayster that wolde call many chyldren to scole, and when he hadde them there, then sette diuerse huyshers vnder hym to teche them, and wold make some whome he fauored causeles / to be taught ryghte, and suffer some whom he hated as causeles to be taught wrong/ and after come and here all theyr lessons him self, and those that haue ben taught ryght make myche of theym and cheryshe them bycause they say ryght, and those that haue ben wronge taught, all to chyde theym and bete theym bycause they say wronge. In good fayth father Barns I take god for so good, tliat I can not byleue that he wyll so do/ but rather as these comen preachers say, that god hath prouyded suffycyent lernynge for all sortes, of whyche they may be sure yf they wyll come to yt/ and also that of suche as come [Ssi] and lerne well in dede, yet all do not wel in dede/ but by the trew techyng byleue and per- ceyue the thynges that they shold do, and yet do it not, but do many thyngcs euyn clene the contrary. And therfore I haue herde them preche, that it is in scrypture that the bonde seruaunt whych knoweth not the wyll of hys lord and do it not, shalbe beten bycause of hys negly- gence/ but excepte he wyll not knowe it of purpose els he shalbe beten but a lytell. But he which knoweth the wyll of hys lorde and than do it not, shalbe sore beten. And when I herde thys preched, me thoughte it went sore agaynst the doctryne of our brother Tyndale, that sayeth as our owne bretherne reporte in hys answere to syr Thomas More/ that whan the wytte perceyueth a thynge, the wyll can not chose but folowe. For that is playne false, yf ys scrypture be trew that saith that a man may know the wyll of hys lorde and yet leue it vndone. And me semeth also ys the same scrypture maketh mych agaynst our brother Tyndale and our brother Fryth, and agaynst the prech- ynge of all our euangelycall bretherne concernyng purgatory. For I dowte not but that many which haue knowen the wyll of the lorde and lefte it vndone, and yet were neuer sore beten therfore in thys lyfe/ do yet ere they dye so repente that they escape from hell/ and therfore do receyue ys betynge no where but yf there be a purgatory. Nor it wyll not helpe that I herde onys one of our bretherne answere and saye, that whan he repenteth than he doth the wyll of hys lorde/ and therfore shall not be beten at all. For yf that scrypture be as they prech it/ than though he shall not be beten for that tyme whan he dyd hys lordes wyll/ he shall yet be beten for the tother tymes in whych he lefte hys lordes wyll vndone. But surely father Barns as I tolde you, me thynketh that these comon prechers say well in that poynt, that they saye that god hath prouyded suretye of doctryne, that is to saye of trew prechynge the worde of god/ and makynge it to be so vnderstanden, as men may be sure that they may voide all dampnable errour yf they wyll, or ellys they were not to be blamed for fallynge in therto. And they that tell vs that we shalbe dampned but yf we byleue ryght, and than tell vs that we can not knowe that but by the scryp- ture, and than the scrypture can not be so lerned but of a trew techer, and they tell vs we can not be [Ssiv] sure of a trew techer, and so can not be sure to vnderstande it ryght/ and yet saye that god wyll dampne vs for vnderstandynge it wrong or not vnderstandyng at all: they that thus tell vs, put me in mynde of a tale that they tell of M. Henry Patenson, a man of nowen wysdome in London and almost euery where ellys, which when he wayted onys on hys mayster in the emperours courte at Brugges, and was there sone perceyued vppon the syghte for a man of specyall wytte by hym selfe and vnlyke the comon sorte/ they caught a sporte in angryng of hym/ and out of dyuers corners hurled at hym suche thynges as angred hym, and hurte hym not. Theruppon he gathered vp good stonys/ not gun- stonys, but as harde as they/ and those he putte a pace into hys bosome, and then stode hym vp vpon a bench and made a proclama- cyon alowde that euery man myghte here hym/ in whyche he commaunded euery man vppon theyr owne parellys, to departe except onely those that horled at hym, to thentent that he myghte knowe theym and horle at them agayne and hurte none other body but hys enemyes. For who so euer taryed after hys proclamacyon made/ he wolde take hym for one of the horlers or ellys for one of theyr consaylers/ and than haue at theyr hedes who so euer they were that wolde abyde. Now was hys proclamacyon in englysshe and the company that herd hym were suche as vnderstode none/ but stode styll and gaped vppon hym and lawghed at hym. And by & by one horled at hym agayne. And anone as he saw that/ what horsons quod he ye stande styll euerychone I wene, and not one of you wyll remoue a fote for all my proclamacyon/ and therby I se well ye be horlers or of counsayle with the horlers all the whole maynye of you/ and therfore haue at you all agayne. And wyth the worde he hurled a great stone oute at aduenture amonge them/ he neyther wyste nor rought at whome/ beyng knowen, yf you shew me how I may techyng agreeth wyth that/ then dare I byleue hym well/ & els it wyll be harde for any suche as I am, to thynke with reason that she sholde gyue sure credence to any man, or that she can be by the scripture sure of so many sectes of contrary consterers, which one constreweth trewly when all the tother say nay and be all redy to swere that he constreweth false. And therfore good fathe she say, I lyke it well that ye declare so well at length which is the very chyrch, bycause we shold not be deceyued with the false prophetes of the fals chyrch, of whom Cryst bode vs take hede & beware. For the very trew chyrche onys knowen/ we shall as our sauyour sayth yf we take good hede, know these false prophetes by theyr frutes.et yf loke they neuer so symplely & speke they neuer so sayntely theyr lyuynge or theyr techyng be contrary to the doctryne of the very trew holy chyrch, it is than very trew that theyr frute is rotten & false, and them selfe false prophetes of some false chyrch/ & for all theyr shepyshe semblaunce outwardly, ryght rauenouse woluys are they within. And therfore good father Barns I wolde haue wyshed that ye had taken a lytell more payne in declaryng and makyng open by what meanes the very trew holy chyrch whiche ye do assygne, myghte be perceyued and knowen/ to the entent that by the knowlege of her & of her prechers whych must nedes haue credence and be knowen for trew techers, bycause they be membres of her that is trew, and theyr doctryne agreeth with hers, whom god wyll not suffer to saye dampnably false, we may perceyue & reproue the false prechers of all other chyrches. For I am sure good father Barons, ys whan ye went about to gyue vs tokens wherby we myght haue some knowledge of this chyrche, ye perceyued well that of necessyte it is a thyng ys nede were to be knowen for the good that maye folow yf it be knowen, & the harme that wolde ensew yf it remayned vnknowen. For ellys ye wolde haue taken no labour about it, to seke vs out suche tokens by whyche we myghte haue knowledge of it. And surely me thynketh that the chyefe commodyte [Rriv] that I can haue of the knowledge of it is thys, that I may when I knowe her, be lerned and instructed by her, & be surely nuryshed by her in the spyrytuall fode. For holy chyrch is our mother, as ye call her your self / and ther- fore is it she whych engendreth vs to god, & which both with mylke and strenger mete, must fede vs & foster vs vp/ & none other nuryce is ther by whom we can be truely & faythfully brought vp. And ther- fore yf we myghte not knowe her/ we were in daynger eyther to be hunger storuen, or ellys in stede of holsome fode to be fed wyth poysen. But now peraduenture frere Barons wold answere to thys, that it maketh no mater thoughe we knowe not her. It is inough that she knowe vs, & come & geue vs good & faythfull fode, and preche truely to vs, though we knowe not that it is she. But vnto this the woman wold I wene neuer stycke for an answere, but wolde shortely tell hym ys he sayed soth, yf euery man were as a yonge babe ys lyeth swadeled in a cradle, to whom onely ye mother myght haue recourse to fede her owne chylde. But now be we (wolde she saye) suche as be thus farre well warned, ys not onely our mother holy chyrch is onely she that can & wyll fede vs well, & wyll gladly offer to geue vs good holsom fode/ but that also there be a great mayny of other wycked women whyche go about to poysen vs / & whych bycause they know that we be well aduertysed that they so entend, & that onely our mother wyll fede vs well, ech of them laboreth by all the meanys that theyr wyly malyce can deuyse, to make vs mysse take our mother, & ech of them calleth her selfe our mother, and laboreth to be byleued/ & out of one selfe good ground of holy scrypture, both our very mother bryngeth & offreth vs holsome frute, and these false fayned mothers out of the selfe same grounde of scrypture, by theyr false handelynge brynge vs & offer vs poysened frute/ & yet so subtylly handeled that it is harde for vs to perceyue eyther by syghte or taste whyche is the good fode and whyche is the poysened, tyll he that taketh it come to hys deth by the infeccyon. But now yf we maye onys knowe whyche of all these is our very mother, then are we saufe and sure. For thanne are we sure that as all the remanaunt wyl gyue vs no meate but nought/ so wyll she gyue vs none but good. And therfore who so loue hys lyfe, wyll take all that she offreth vs/ all though it be bytter and soure in taste and not very se[Rri]mely in syghte/ and refuse all that the tother offer vs, be it neuer so pleasaunt to the eye, nor neuer so delycyous to the mouthe. And I verly thynke that the thynge standynge in such case, our father in heuyn so myghty, so mercyfull, and so wyse as he is, and so tenderly louynge hys chyldren as he doth, perceyuynge the perell that myghte and muste nedys falle vppon them by the mysse takynge of some suche false malycyouse woman in stede of our very mother, wyll not leue vs in suche case, but that he wyll cause oure very mother to be well knowen frome all the false counterfetes, to suclle as lyste to loke and attende well therto, bothe by tokens of her and also tokens of them. And veryly good father Barons, it semeth that ye sawe thys your selfe full well. For it appereth vppon your wordes, that there is no trew prechour but there as is the very chyrche. For ye shew for a perfayt token of the trew chyrch, that there as is the trewe prechynge there be alwaye some of the trew chyrch. And ye wryte that thys token is perfayt. Now than/ yf where so euer is trewe preachynge, there is alwaye some ofthe very chyrche/ it muste nedes folowe to my pore wytte that am but a woman, that where so euer be none of the very chyrche, there is no trewe prechynge. And then yf there be no trew prechyng but where there are some of the very chyrch/ ye se what nede it is that the very chirch be knowen, to the entent we may be sure where to haue the trewe prechynge/ wythout whyche we can neuer ye wote well lerne the trew fayth, nor truely to be taught to vnderstand the scrypture. Whyche tyll we do/ we be neuer able to iudge whyche precher of so many contraryouse expowneth and declareth it ryght. Now wold frere Barns peraduenture answere her and saye: Therfore haue I shewed you lo by what tokens ye maye perceyue where some of the very chyrche be. But vnto that were she lykely to saye agayne: ye veryly father Barons well fauoredly, for so farre as ye go. But I wolde as I sayde haue wysshed you to haue goone therin somwhat ferther/ whyche I thynke veryly ye wolde haue done yf your laysoure wolde haue serued you. For now of your two tokens, ye tone your self confesseth to be but faynt & insuffycyent, ys is to wyt good wurkes ys are commended in scrypture / bycause ys though it be well done in euery dowt to [Rriv] deme the beste, yet hypocrysye maye deceyue vs, & make vs take for a good man & a member of the very holy chirch, some false faynynge hypochryte that is a very dede mem- ber of some false chyrche, and a lymme of the very deuyll in dede. And yet ouer thys as well that same vnperfyte token wherby I sholde haue knowledge of the very chyrche, that is to wytte wurkes accordynge to scrypture, as also the tother token that ye call the perfayt token, that is to wyt that in what company so euer I here the worde of god truely preched, that is to wytte the scrypture truely declared wyth out any dampnable dremys of men, there I maye be sure that in that congregacyon be some of the very holy chyrch: bothe these tokens serue but for cunnynge folke that are suffycyently lerned in the vnderstandynge of the scrypture all redy/ and these be they that haue lest nede to knowe the very chyrche. But none of these tokens can serue suche begynners as I am, that haue nede to know the very chyrch, to lerne of her the ryght vnderstandynge of the scryp- ture, bycause she is our very mother as your selfe calleth her. And therfore we haue the nede to knowe her, that we may be bolde to take the fode of doctryne at her hande, bycause we wote wel our very moder wyl gyue vs but good/ where we stande ellys in perell of poysenynge, yf by mysse takyng our mother we take the meate of doctryne at the hande of any of those venemouse harlottes, that conterfete ther contenaunce and wolde we sholde take one of theym for oure mother. And also though the tokens bothe twayne were sure & perfayt for so farre as they go, that is to wytte though that I were sure in dede that in suche a company be some of the very trewe chyrche: yet syth I can not knowe by them whiche persons of that company they be as ye confesse I can not/ what sholde thys knowledge auayle me? It may peraduenture hynder and hurte me. For yf I dowted lest there were happely no suche trewe membres of the very chyrche in that company/ I wolde be the more ware of any thynge that they sholde teche me. But now whyle though I know not who, yet I wene my self that I know well some of them be trewe/ I maye percase the more boldely and wyth ye lesse fere, take that the false shall offer me for the hope I maye haue, that I haue peraduenture by happe for- tuned vppon that person that is one of the trewe. For why, to vse dyly[Rri]gence and forbere haste, and be ware and byleue not tyll I surely fynde and know the trew/ thatwere by your wordes vtterly vayne. For ye say I shall neuer know them, nor neuer know farther, but that there be some of them. Now good readers what hath Barons holdyng his heresy of his vnknowen chyrche, what hath he to say more to this woman? ln good fayth nothyng that wyll be worth a flye. But the woman may sone fynd more yet to say to hym. For she may saye to hym ferther: yet I remember me now father Barons a nother thyng. Ye wyll that I shall know ys chyrch by the trew declaracyon of scrip- ture. But how shall I be sure whyche be the very bokes of scrypture? For you say playnely that the pystle of saynt Iames is not holy scrypture, and other men say yes. And ye say that ye can proue that pystle false by wordes of saynt Poule/ and then were ye lykele to make me to doute as well of saynt Poule as of saynt Iames. For why shold I better byleue the tone then the tother, whyle they were both Crystes approued apostles? For though ye saye that yt was of old douted by some folke whyther that pystle were wryten of saynte Iames or not: yet after that doute moued, the whole chyrche hath fermely byleued yt to be his, without any doute of any man in a thousande yere to gether, tyll wythin this.xx. yere. And then as ye say now by that peyce, so may there a nother come and saye by a nother peyce/ and so go aboute to proue euery peyce false by other, where so euer any seme to say any thyng which the wordes of some other part semeth contrary. And then when they shall in this wyse contende & stryue theruppon/ where as ye say I shall by the trew construccyon of the scrypture perceyue where be some of the very trew chyrche: how wyll ye fyrste make me know whych of theym all assygneth me the very trew scrypture? To this when frere Barons wolde answere and falsely bere her in hande that the pystle of saynte Iames hath ben alway douted of And that such bokes as haue ben alway by the whole chyrch taken and accepted for holy scrypture, of those may she be sure that they be holy scrypture/ for god geueth liis chyrche that gyfte, that yt can trewely dyscerne the wordes of god from the wordes of man: this wyll I wote well frere Barons saye. For this sayth not onely hys olde mayster saynte Austayne, oute of whose rule and relygyon frere Barons is ronne away/ but his new mayster al[Rriv]so frere Luther, after whom he runneth out of relygyon and out of rule now. But when Barns wolde answere her so: then wold she sone brynge hym to the bay, and tell hym that the chyrche by whyche she knoweth whych is the scrypture, is not any vnknowen chyrch/ but the knowen catholyque chyrche of all crysten nacyons remaynyng in the comen well knowen fayth. And then syth she may boldely byleue that chyrch in ys gret oint, and lerneth that lessen of none other chyrch but that, whyche is the fyrste lesson of all the fayth, and wheruppon as frere Barons agreeth all the whole remanaunt dependeth, syth that by hym there is nothynge any sure trewth but yfyt be wryten in scrypture: she maye therfore wolde she saye take that chyrche for the teacher of all the remanaunt/ and hym for a trew techer, whose fayth agreeth wyth that chyrche/ and those folke whose fayth is contrary to that chyrche, whych shall sone be knowen, for they be forthwith accused and reproued vppon theyr false preachinges herd, them she may and wyll take for the false techers and false expowners of scrypture, tyll father Barons can geue her better knoweledge of his holy trewe chyrche vnknowen, wherof she is neuer the nere yet: Lo thus myght a wyse woman that coulde no more but rede englyshe, rebuke and confounde frere Barons vppon the syght of his owne ryall processe, in whych he wold now teache vs to know whyche is the very chyrche. How be yt to confounde hym, we shall not greatly nede to seke one that can rede. For what hath he to say to a pore woman that coulde not rede? If his owne secrete hostesse the good wyfe of the botell of Botolphs warfe, that but yf she be better amended halteth both in body and soule, were in the congregacyon present at this commenyng/ and then wold hympe forth among them and say, by saynt Malkyn father Barons all your tokens of the very trew chyrch wyll not stand me in the stede of a tauern token nor of a mustarde token neyther. For I may for the tone be sure of a new baken bune, and for the tother I maye be sure of a pot of mustarde/ but for your two tokens of youre holy chyrche, I can not be sure of one ferthyng worth of trew doctrine for them both. For how shall I perceyue that any trew members of your holy chyrche in [Rri] onely whom ye say is the trew fayth be present in company, when your tokens be the trew prechyng of scripture, and the good leuyng after the scrypture/ how can I gete any good by those two tokens when I can not rede at all: what could frere Barons say to his hostesse here? Surely nothynge hath he/ but sholde in the ende be fayne to fall to the desteny of goddes eleccyon, and say as he sygnyfyeth and somwhat mutereth in his boke/ but then sholde he be fayne to speke yt out and say, that when they come to the prechyng, all those that are electe of god shall be secretely moued and taught inwardely, and shall by the instyncte of the spyryt of god though they know not whether the person be good or no that preacheth, perceyue yet the trewe worde of god vppon the herynge / and shall vnderstande yt as Tyndale sayth that the egle perceyued her pray. And the tother sorte whome god hath not chosen, though they heare yt shall not vnderstand yt/ but whether the preacher be good or badde, they shallbe neuer the better, nor shall not dyscerne the trew preacher fro the false, but be deceyued by the false and not perceyue the trew for any thynge that they can do. And therfore euery man wyll Barons say that shall be saued, shall attayne the saluacion by the only eleccyon of the lord, wythout any parte of theyr owne deuoyre any thynge doynge therto, lyue they neuer so long. For though that all be called/ yet onely those that god hath elected shall be saued/ and shall as our sauyour say but a very few. And any thynge that the tone sorte or the tother shall or can worke, shall neyther helpe towarde nor froward/ but eleccyon and desteny shall do all to gether. And here this ancre in conclusyon shall he be fayn to caste out/ wyth whych when he wold wene to stay the shepe, he draweth it quyte vnder the water. For I wene his hostesse wolde sone haue sayde somewhat therto. For I wote well she is nat tong tayed, I haue herd her talke my selfe. She wolde I wene therfore haue sayde vnto hym thus mych at the leste wyse: why father Barns, when god calleth vppon vs all, and we come to gether at his callyng, & my neyghbour & I come both to chyrch with one purpose to lerne the right way to heuen/ wold ye make me wene that god were so parcyall, that wythout any dyfference of cause bytwene her and me, I beynge as well wyllenge to lerne to please him as she, that when I haue at his callynge folowed hym so farre as well as she, & wyth some [Rriv] what more payne to, for I halt ye wote well/ he wyll for all that I halt make her perceyue ye trouth and go forth farther wyth hym, tyll he brynge her to heuen/ & leue me styll in darkenesse and ignoraunce, and let me fall into hell, for none other cause but onely for he lyste to chose her, and leue me vnchosen? If he gaue her more then me for his onely pleasure, I could fynde no faut. But mary syr ys he wold geue her all & me not onely nothynge, but also condempne me to perpetuall fyre bycause hym selfe wold not cause me to perceyue the trouth/ and no cause why he wolde not, but bycause he wolde not chose me, and no cause why he wolde not chose me, but onely bycause he wolde not: in good fayth I take god for so good that I can neuer byleue you therin. Yet me thynketh that these comen preachers whom you dysprayse, say better. For they tell vs that it is in scripture, that god wolde all folke sholde be saued and come to the knowledge of the trouth yf they wyll them self/ & that therfore by one meane or other he calleth all. But he choseth only those that will come and here and lerne and do therafter/ and who wolde so do, he sawe ere he made them, and therfore euen then chose them. But for bycause they be but few in respecte of them that wyll not, therfore there are few chosen though many be called / and not bycause god wyll call all, and then of those that come & are wyllynge to lerne, wyll cause some to be taught and some not, wythoute other cause or dyfference, but bycause hym selfe lyste to chese the tone and refuse the tother / as though yt were an euyll mayster that wolde call many chyldren to scole, and when he hadde them there, then sette diuerse huyshers vnder hym to teche them, and wold make some whome he fauored causeles / to be taught ryghte, and suffer some whom he hated as causeles to be taught wrong/ and after come and here all theyr lessons him self, and those that haue ben taught ryght make myche of theym and cheryshe them bycause they say ryght, and those that haue ben wronge taught, all to chyde theym and bete theym bycause they say wronge. In good fayth father Barns I take god for so good, that I can not byleue that he wyll so do / but rather as these comen preachers say, that god hath prouyded suffycyent lernynge for all sortes, of whyche they may be sure yf they wyll come to yt/ and also that of suche as come [Ssi] and lerne well in dede, yet all do not wel in dede/ but by the trew techyng byleue and per- ceyue the thynges that they shold do, and yet do it not, but do many thynges euyn clene the contrary. And therfor preche, that it is in scrypture that the bonde seruaunt whych knoweth not the wyll of hys lord and do it not, shalbe beten bycause of hys negly- gence/ but excepte he wyll not knowe it of purpose els he shalbe beten but a lytell. But he which knoweth the wyll of hys lorde and than do it not, shalbe sore beten. And when I herde thys preched, me thoughte it went sore agaynst the doctryne of our brother Tyndale, that sayeth as our owne bretherne reporte in hys answere to syr Thomas More/ that whan the wytte perceyueth a thynge, the wyll can not chose but folowe. For that is playne false, yf ys scrypture be trew that saith that a man may know the wyll of hys lorde and yet leue it vndone. And me semeth also ys the same scrypture maketh mych agaynst our brother Tyndale and our brother Fryth, and agaynst the prech- ynge of all our euangelycall bretherne concernyng purgatory. For I dowte not but that many which haue knowen the wyll of the lorde and lefte it vndone, and yet were neuer sore beten therfore in thys lyfe/ do yet ere they dye so repente that they escape from hell/ and therfore do receyue ys betynge no where but yf there be a purgatory. Nor it wyll not helpe that I herde onys one of our bretherne answere and saye, that wllan he repenteth than he doth the wyll of hys lorde/ and therfore shall not be beten at all. For yf that scrypture be as they prech it/ than though he shall not be beten for that tyme whan he dyd hys lordes wyll/ he shall yet be beten for the tother tymes in whych he lefte hys lordes wyll vndone. But surely father Barns as I tolde you, me thynketh that these comon prechers say well in that poynt, that they saye that god hath prouyded suretye of doctryne, that is to saye of trew prechynge the worde of god/ and makynge it to be so vnderstanden, as men may be sure that they may voide all dampnable errour yf they wyll, or ellys they were not to be blamed for fallynge in therto. And they that tell vs that we shalbe dampned but yf we byleue ryght, and than tell vs that we can not knowe that but by the scryp- ture, and than the scrypture can not be so lerned but of a trew techer, and they tell vs we can not be [Ssiv] sure of a trew techer, and so can not be sure to vnderstande it ryght/ and yet saye that god wyll dampne vs for vnderstandynge it wrong or not vnderstandyng at all: they that thus tell vs, put me in mynde of a tale that they tell of M. Henry Patenson, a man of knowen wysdome in London and almost euery where ellys, which when he wayted onys on hys mayster in the emperours courte at Brugges, and was there sone perceyued vppon the syghte for a man of specyall wytte by hym selfe and vnlyke the comon sorte/ they caught a sporte in angryng of hym/ and out of dyuers corners hurled at hym suche thynges as angred hym, and hurte hym not. Theruppon he gathered vp good stonys/ not gun- stonys, but as harde as they/ and those he putte a pace into hys bosome, and then stode hym vp vpon a bench and made a proclama- cyon alowde that euery man myghte here hym / in whyche he commaunded euery man vppon theyr owne parellys, to departe except onely those that horled at hym, to thentent that he myghte knowe theym and horle at them agayne and hurte none other body but hys enemyes. For who so euer taryed after hys proclamacyon made/ he wolde take hym for one of the horlers or ellys for one of theyr consaylers/ and than haue at theyr hedes who so euer they were that wolde abyde. Now was hys proclamacyon in englysshe and the company that herd hym were suche as vnderstode none/ but stode styll and gaped vppon hym and lawghed at hym. And by & by one horled at hym agayne. And anone as he saw that/ what horsons quod he ye stande styll euerychone I wene, and not one of you wyll remoue a fote for all my proclamacyon/ and therby I se well ye be horlers or of counsayle with the horlers all the whole maynye of you/ and therfore haue at you all agayne. And wyth the worde he hurled a great stone oute at aduenture amonge them/ he neyther wyste nor rought at whome/ but lyghted vppon a burgonyons hed and brake hys pate that the bloude ranne about hys earys, and mayster Henry bad hym stande to hys harmys hardely/ for why wolde he not beware than and gete hym thense bytyme, whan he gaue hym before so fayre courteyse warnynge. Now good father Barns wolde his haltynge hostesse saye, ye seme now by your tale to make as though god almyghty wold vse of a straunge affeccyon the same fashyon that M. Henry vsed offoly/ that is to wyt to make vs a pro[Ssi]clamacyon in suche wyse endyghted, as we can not vnderstande it wythout we maye be sure of a trew interpretour / and than gyue some of vs suche as hym lysteth, a secrete priuy knowlege of such one/ and all the remanaunt ys fayne wolde and can not fynde out and know the trew expouner of his proclamacion, for lacke of that token which he kepeth from them, horle stonys at theyr hedes bycause thei fulfyll it not. In good fayth father Barns me thynketh therfore ys this lesson ys ye tech vs herin is a very perilouse blasphemy. And yet abyde I remember me lo father Barns vppon an other thynge wolde she say, that yf ye brynge all to this poynt in conclu- syon, that there is no more but euery man go where he wyll, and here whom he lyste/ & alwaye he that is electe shall by the inwarde inspyracion happen vpon the trewe precher, and the trew prechyng, and the trew knowledge of the very worde of god, and the trewe vnderstandyng therof, and onely therby gete heuyn / and all the remanaunt for the onely lacke of goddys eleccyon (to the getyng wherof them selfe ye saye can nothyng do) shall fayle of all these thynges and fall in contynuall errour, out of whyche they can haue no mene possyble to escape, but therby muste nedes fall into eternall fyre: yf it thus be, ye maye put vp agayn both your tokens into your purse, for any nede that any man hath of them. For they that be sure by the secrete inspyracyon, that they be truely taught, and therby knowe them self for electes, and so be sure they shalbe saued: what nede they to care whyther any of the very chyrch be in that congregacyon or not? and on the tother syde, those whose desteny shalbe for lacke of eleccyon to be dampned, and therfore shall not lerne the trouth in the congregacyon be there neuer so many of the very chyrche therin/ they lo, to knowe whyther there be any therin or no, can stande theym in no stede at all. And thus father Barns takyng your secrete vnknowen spyrytuall chyrche/ ye myghte spare all the labour that ye haue hytherto taken in gyuyng vs tokens to know it by, for any stede that your tokens can stande vs in. And therfore yf euer any chyrche here in erthe shall stande vs in any stede towarde any suretye of trew doctryne, as in dede it must yf any man may tell an other how he may be surely taught the trouth: it must nedes be in any wyse some such chyrch as nedes must be knowen for such, that a man may be sure to lerne therof [Ssiv] What wold frere Barns haue answered vnto his hostesse, yf she had tolde hym this/ and that he than hadde sene the tother good wyfe her neyghbour begyn to gape agayn, as she that were yet redy to brynge in some other fawte yet founden ferther in hys tale, as there myghte in good fayth me semeth many be founden, not onely by lerned men but euyn by vnlerned women to, suche fawtes as neyther frere Barons nor all the lerned heretykes of all theyr hundred sectys sholde be well able to voyde/ so stronge a thynge is trouth, and so feble a thynge is falsshed, and so hard to be borne out and defended. But than wold frere Barns haue waxed a lytell warme, and byd them syt styll and holde theyr bable, and tell them that saynt Poule wyst full well what he dyd whan he wold not suffer women to take vppon theym to preche and teche in the chyrche, nor so mych as aske a questyon amonge the congregacyon/ but yf they dowted of any thynge that they wolde lerne, lette them aske it of theyr owne husbandes at home. And so wolde frere Barns byd those wyues do wyth sorow. For yf they myghte be suffered to begyn onys in the congregacyon to fall in dysputynge, those aspen leuys of theyrs wolde neuer leue waggynge. But thenne wolde the wyfe of the botell haue answered hym agayne quyckely, and tell hym that she had alwaye taken hym for wyser, and wolde haue went he coulde haue taught better. And some sorow wolde she saye haue I had for the fauour of the sectes/ and so hath my husband hadde to. And my lorde chauncellour tolde me that I was lytell better than a bawde, bycause I receyued tWo nonnes in by nyght, ys Iohan Byrt brought me, otherwyse called Adryan, specyally bycause I kepte theym close in an hygh garet in myne house, and suffered two men to resorte vp thyther to them. How be it in good fayth I had prouyded, that yf they lyste to slepe/ the two men myght yf they wold ly to gyther by them selfe, and lette the nonnes alone. For there were.ii. beddes in the garet. But yet as folke be redy to deme the worst, I was wyth some folke taken for halfe a bawde there and all for the furtheraunce of loue bytwene the bretherne and the systerne of theuangelycall secte, me thoughte they were in so good a waye. How be it synne I se now that you father Barns that were onys a doctour can saye no better for it/ by our lady I bygyn so to mystrust all the mater, that [Ssi] saue for sellynge of myn ale and vtterynge of my chafer to gete a peny by them, I rought nere though there came neuer none of theym any more wythin my dore. Now wolde wyth this the tother good honest wyfe of lykelyhed haue resorted agayne vnto her ensample of her very mother and of these false wyches / of whyche euery one wolde be taken for her mother to grow fyrste in truste wyth her, and then after poysen her. And then wolde she conclude: yf yt be father Barons suche an vn- knowen thynge whych chyrche is my mother holy chyrche, and then one there is with whome I was cristened and hytherto brought vp/ and though I se many thynges in her whych I wold wysh were amended: yet for all ys she counsayleth me to be good, and she telleth what I muste do yf I wyll be good. How be yt therin of trouthe all you other chyrches vary wyth her, and tell me she teacheth me wronge. But then so do you al so eche of you wyth other, and eche of you telleth me that other teacheth wronge. And she telleth me the scripture proueth for her parte / and eche of you sayth that the scrypture proueth for your owne part, and that she lyeth/ and eche of you sayth also that other lyeth/ and she sayth that ye lye euery- chone. And whyche of you declare the scrypture truely & which vntruely, passeth my capacyte to perceyue. But then I se that the scrypture whyche eche of you wold seme to constre truely, & yet eche contrary to other/ you do not so mych as know whyche yt is but by the meane of her. And I se al so that all you were ones wyth her, and be fallen at varyaunce wyth her, and so be comen from her for angre. And I se that though she be not so good as I wold she were/ yet for angre and enuy synnes ye be come from her, ye mysse reporte her in many thynges, & wold make her appere myche worse. And I se also that suche vyces as are well knowen for vyce, whyche ye fynde and rebuke in her, be ryfe & well knowen in your selfes. And I se also that many suche holy men haue ben brought vppe wyth her, as your self confesse for sayntes / and amonge all your chyrches I neuer herde of any one. And I se also ys some thynges ye teche among you, all most euery one, such as all those holy saintes abhorred & had in abominacyon/ as for ensample the weddyng of freres & nunnes. And I se also ys in our chyrch as bad as we be, yet god contynueth his myracles/ and amonge all your chyrches that be gone from oures, he worketh neuer one. [Ssiv] And I se also that eche of your chyrches wold fayne seme to be the trewe chyrche/ for eche of youres affermeth that onely it selfe hath the trouth, and the trew chyrch is yt whiche onely chyrche hath the trouthe. And then agayne eche of you seeth his owne parte so feble and so farre vnable to be defended in that poynt, that syth no one chyrch of all yours may be matche to our chyrche out of which ye all came, and then that eche chyrche of yours or all your chyrches to geder beynge eche to other so contraryouse and repugnaunt, shold be the trew chirch, were ye wote well your selfe a thynge more then impossyble: ye be fayne for thys cause to sende vs to an vnknowen chyrche. By whych sendynge, whyle ye wolde wythdrawe me from ours/ yet ye confesse the contrary of all that ye go about. For ye wold seme eche of you to haue the very trouth/ and then were you the trew chyrche and the sure teachers. But nowe syth ye saye the trew chyrche is vnknowen, and eche of your chyrches is knowen/ it appereth by your own tale ys none of all your chyrches is the trew chyrch. And yf it be not the trew chyrch then hath yt not the trew doctryne whych yt pretendeth/ but is one of ye false chyrches & hath ys false doctryne. And therfore yf yt so were in dede, that our chyrch were not the trew chyrche, nor were not my ryghte mother in dede/ but that the very chyrche and my very mother were onely some one suche as ye wolde sende me to seke, that is to say some vnknowen chyrche: yet father Barons by your owne tale yt were none of all your chyrches. And therfore I were but a fole to leue the knowen catholyque chyrche, whom I haue hytherto taken for my very mother, and come from her to yours, whych as your selfe confesseth is not the trew chyrch, and therfore not my very mother/ but that my very mother were one whome ye neyther tell me where I may fynd her, sauynge that ye byd me go seke her/ and ye say she is some where abrode in the wylde worlde, whych world is a place to wyde ye wote well for a woman to ouer walke well (and at that worde wolde hympe halt his hostes hoppe forth agayne, and say mary syr that yt were in dede for me) and al so yf I wolde wander all aboute to loke her, yet yf I happed to come in her company, ye tell me no sure marke wherby I might well know her, but onely that I shold perceyue her to be there/ but I sholde not yet wyt whyche were she, and then were she for me/ almoste as good be thense. And [Ssi] therfore father Barons, in good fayth tyll ye can tell me a wyser tale of my new mother/ I myght thynke my selfe a fole, yf for suche a tale as you tell I wold leue of myne old. And thus are we now good reders wyth these onely women vsynge no reason but suche as a woman myght fynd, and yet suche as no man maye soyle, comen to a poynte of frere Barns vnperfayt tokens, by whych we may so knowe his chyrche, as we be neuer the nerer for the knowledge of yt, for any knowledge that he geueth vs of But nowe yf he haue not proued vs his chyrche at all/ then is he ye wote well myche ferther of from makynge vs haue any knowledge of her. For he muste make vs fyrste know that suche one there is, byfore he make vs know in what company some of her partes be. Now wote ye well that the chyrche whyche he toke vppon hym to proue, muste be a chyrche so clene and so pure wythout spotte or wryncle, that saynt Peter may fynde no faute in her. Nowe where as he goth aboute to proue yt by two meanes/ one by the scrypture, and a nother by the doctours of the chyrche: I haue all redy proued you that all the places of scripture that he hath brought in for that purpose, he hath in suche wyse handeled, that whyle he lyueth he may be a shamed therof For they not onely proue nothynge for hym/ but also proue clere agaynste hym. And all his places of the doctours of the chyrch that he bringeth in for the proue of that purpose, I haue purposely differred, bycause I wold answere them to gether laste of all. For syth he taketh in ys poynt a nother way then Tyndale doth, or Fryth, or lightly any other heretike of them all, in layenge forth for his part holy doctours of ys chyrch, to make it seme that the olde holy sayntes say for hys parte:. I haue thought yt therfore good to examyne them orderly eche after other/ wherby ye shall shortely perceyue that the wordis of those holy doctours do no more proue his purpose, then do the textes that he brought of the scryptures, whyche as I haue proued you clerely proue agaynst hym. His fyrste authoryte be these wordes of saynte Austayn in his fyftieth sermone, made vpon the wordes of our lord, sayenge, Of Cryste is ys chyrch made fayre. Fyrste was she fylthy in synnes, afterward by pardon & grace made fayre. Vppon these wordes saynt Austayne none other meaneth, but that all the beauty of any that is in the chyrche and in [Ssiv] any man of the chyrche commeth of god / and that euery man that is of the chyrche was borne in synne/ and that all they whyche fro the Iewes or Gentyles turned to god and cam to the chyrche, hadde byfore lyued in synne, and were therfore fylthy, tyll by the sacrament of baptysme at theyr entre into the chyrche they were purged & clensed from theyr synne by the grace and pardon of god and the sacrament of baptysme, and after when they be defoyled agayne by synne, they be agayne clensed, purged, and made fayre, by grace and perdon of god and the sacra- ment of penaunce, and other holy sacramentes takynge theyr effecte, strength, and vertue of Crystes passyon. But he fyndeth not in all that sermon any worde, wherin saynt Austayne sayth, that who so euer is onys clensed and made fayre ys neuer after foule/ nor that as sone as he is by any dedely synne foule, he is by and by no arte of holy chyrche. For holy chyrche is therof is holy otherwyse then the holynes of theyr professyon, but because of that holynesse that is in yt besyde/ nor is not called fayre bycause euery parte is fayre, but bycause of such fayrenes as is in it besyde/ as there may be some weke parte in a strong bodye, and some sore part in a hole body, ye & some dede parte in a quicke body, & some foule part in a fayre body, & some whit parte in a blakke body/ & in a good company some naughtye folke. And in such maner spake our sauyoure to his apostles, where he sayd, you be clene/ not ys they were al clene/ for he forth wyth added vnto yt, but ye be not all clene / meanynge by Iudas the traytoure that was one of them / and though he was a traytour ln his herte, was yet a foule vnholy member of that fayre holy chyrche. Lyke as yf a good kynge had in his chekker roule attendyng dayly vppon hym in his housholde dyuerse & many false traytours that went about secretly to betraye hym, all the whyle they be suffered there tyll they be taken for ther treason and put out/ they be styll of the courte and of the kynges houshold. And the houshold, all be yt that some wyll say there was a shrewed housholde, bycause yt had suche shrewes in yt/ yet was yt for all that a good housholde, bycause yt had good besyde. And lykewyse as in the whole world, the varyete of good partes & bad, geueth a beauty to ye whole/ so in the chyrche of Cryste hym selfe seeth how the foule partes do sette oute [Tti] the fayre, & rather bewtyfye then blemmyshe the goodlynes of the whole. And though the chyrche be of some foulke called fowle, for those persons that are by dedely synne fowle therin / as the euangelyste sayde that the dyscyples murmured at the losse of the oyntement wherat none of them murmured but one: so is she fayre for all that in dede by the fayre- nesse that is in her, bothe by reason of Chryst her gloryouse hed, and of many other fayre membres that are euer in her, and by reason of the goodly composycyon and cumly temperature of the whole body. For whyche cause the chyrche maye well saye of it selfe, the wordes that she speketh in the cantycles: I am blacke, but yet am I bewty- full. Ye and though there be mo fowle than fayre therin, by reason wherof alter the comon vse it myghte be called fowle and not fayre/ as a man of Inde is called blacke for all hys whyte tethe: yet is it otherwyse here, for the tother special causes. The tone for that be it neuer so unholy in lyuynge, it is called holy for that it hath holy professyon, wherby it is dedycated vnto Chryst. The secunde, that there is in thys world none holy that goth to any other chyrche out of it, or that wyll not be of it. The thyrde cause is, for that the holynesse that is in it be there neuer so few holy therin, is farre fayrer and holyer, and more plesaunt in the syght of god, than the fowlenesse and vn- holynesse of all that are fowle & vnholy therin/ specyally for the bewtye and holynesse of the very cheyfe & pryncypall hed therof our sauyour Cryst hym self And therfore as I saye, these wordes of saynt Austayne menyng none other wyse by them than saynt Austayn ment in them, make no thynge in thys worlde for frere Barons chyrch that is as he sayth so fayre that it hath neyther spot therin nor wryncle/ for that sayth not saynt Austayne. And therfore thys place of saynte Austayne no thynge helpeth hym/ but by other places of saynt Austayne whych I shall brynge you forth after, ye shall se the mynde of saynte Austayne so playnely declared in thys poynt agaynste frere Barns, ys frere Barns shall be as wery of saynte Austayns wordes, as euer he was wery of saynte Austayns wurkes / for werynes wherof he ronne out of saynte Austayns rule. But fyrste shall I peruse those other places of saynt Austayne whych frere Barns bryngeth in hym selfe. The next place of saynt Austayne that he bryngeth in is thys. Barons. The holy chyrche are we/ but I do not saye we as one sholde saye we that [Ttiv] be here alonely that heare me now, but as many as be here faythfull chrystened men in thys chyrche, that is to saye in this citye, as many as be in thys regyon, as many as be beyonde the see, as many as be in all the whole worlde (for from the rysynge of the sonne tyll the goynge downe is the name of god praysed) so is the holy chyrche our mother. More. Now good readers, thys texte of saynt Austayne hath frere Barns alledged to be in his sermone.99. that he made <2de tempore>2 / in whyche sermon I fynde it not. And leste there myghte haue ben some ouersyghte, eyther in hym self or in the prenter, by mysse wrytynge or by mysse prentyng those fygurs of algorysme, bycause the fygure of.9. & the fygure of.6. be all in maner one yf they be contrary turned: I assayed them therfore eulery way/ and sought & red ouer not one1y.99. sermon whyche he assygneth, but a1so.96. 69. and .66./ and I fynde his texte in none of all those places/ and than to go seke those wordes thorowout all saynt Austayns wurkes, were a great longe besynesse. For surely it semeth that the man hath alledged hys texte in a wronge place, of purpose bycause he wolde not haue it founden, for some thynge that hym self seeth of lykelyhed in the same sermon that wolde marre all hys mater. Wherfore tyll it happen me to fynde the place by chaunce in redynge of saynte Austayns wurkes/ we wyll take the wordes onely whych hym selfe reherseth/ & than proue they no pyece of hys purpose agaynst the knowen catholyke chyrche. For saynt Austayn doth in those wordes no thyng ellys, but shew ys the chyrch is not restrayned vnto any one countre, as those heretykes held whyche were called the Donatystes, whyche sayde the very chyrche was onely in Affryque, & was by god prouyded to rest there & sprede no ferther abrode/ & for the defence of theyr frantyke heresye, dyd as frere Barns & these other heretykes do now, bryng forth certayn wordes of scripture constrewed after theyr owne folysh fantasye. But saynt Austayne as I say sheweth in those wordes, that the chyrch is the catholyke chyrch, ys is to say the vniuersall multytude of all trew chrysten people & all faythfull chrysten nacyons where so euer they be thorow the worlde. Now good reder what maketh thys for frere Barons purpose in profe of hys vnknowen chyrche, agaynste the knowen catholyque chyrche? well he woteth hym selfe that the knowen catholyke chyrch, doth not say ys the chirch is nor can be but in one cuntrey/ but he well knoweth that by the knowen catholyke [Tti] chyrche, that false heresye of the Donatystes is as fully condempned as are these other false heresyes of hys. Yes sayth Barns/ for here ye maye se lo, ys neyther pope nor cardy- nall be no more of thys chyrche than the poreste man in erth. Why who sayed hym euer naye therof? But what is that to the purpose? for as a pore man is as well of the chyrche as is the pope/ so is a cordener as well an englysshe man or a frenche man, as is the kynge of eyther other cuntre. But yet lyke as reason wyl not agre, that the cordener in hys cuntre bere as myche rule as the kynge: so wyll it not agre wyth reason, that euery man in the chyrche bere as mych rule as the pope/ whom frere Barons dothe hym self here in this same processe of the chirch knowledge and confesse for Chrystes vicar in the chyrche. And therfore it is all besyde the purpose that he runneth forth styll in thys purpose, and alledgeth these wordes of Lyranus. <2The>2 <2chyrche doth not stande in men by the reason of spyrytuall power or secular>2 <2dygnyte/ for many prynces and many popys and other inferior persons haue>2 <2swarued fro the fayth. Wherfore that chyrche doth stande in those persons,>2 <2in whom is the trewe knowledge and confessyon offayth and veryte.>2 These wordes of Lyre hath Barns alledged to be wryten in his exposycyon vpon ye .xix. chapiter of saynt Mathew. But I haue loked ouer Lyre vppon all that chapyter/ and there fynde I no suche sayenge. And therfore of lykelyhed Barns playeth here wyth Lyre, as he playeth wyth saynte Austayn in the place that he alledged before/ that is to wyt alledgeth it in a wronge place, bycause he wolde not haue it founde for fere of some thynge that wolde appere vppon the place redde and consydered. But vppon these wordes of Lyre, he maketh a greate exclamacyon and cryeth out: <2Oh my lordes what wyll ye say to tyra? I haue great>2 <2meruayle thatyou burne hym not. It is hyghe tyme to condempne hymfor an>2 <2heretyke. For he speketh agaynsteyour 1aw.24. Quaestione prima Quodcum->2 <2que, where as your glose declareth that god suffereth not the Rome chirche to>2 <2erre/ and tyra sayth playne that many popys haue erred, and also that the>2 <2chirch standeth not in dygnite but in confessyon of Cryst & of his blessed verite.>2 Barns wold here seme lo to haue founden a great thyng in Lyre his worde. But in good fayth I fynde nothynge here in Barons owne wordes but hys owne dowble foly. Fyrste he sayeth Lyre condemp- neth the lawe/ and than he sheweth that he speketh not agaynste the lawe but agaynst a glose. Is not that worde wysely proued? [Ttiv] Then se yet how wysely he proueth that Lyre reproueth the glose, he sayth that ys glose sayth that god suffereth not the chyrche of Rome to erre, and Lyre sayeth playne that many popes haue erred. And what than? Lyre sayth not ys the chyrch of Rome hath erred, nor Lyre sayth not that the pope of Rome is the whole chyrche of Rome/ no more than the bysshoppe of London is the whole chyrche of London, or the archebysshoppe of Canterbery the whole chyrche of the prouynce. Now where Lyra sayth that the chyrche standeth not in the dygnyte, but in the confessyon of Cryste and hys blessed veryte: what sayth he other then all the hole catholyke chyrche agreeth/ not onely the good folke but the noughty to, as many as any wytte haue to perceyue the thing? Lyke as a cytye and a realme standeth not so mych by the dygnytye of the rulers, as it standeth by wysdome, good order, true dealynge, and iustyce. But yet as these thynges wold fayle in a cytye and in a realme, yf there were no rulers to se them kepte/ ye and the rulers beynge of a ryghte seconde sorte, yet wolde the people be myche worse yf they were all wythout. And the people is therfore bounden to obay them, and not euery lewde felow to ieste and rayle vppon them: so is it in the whole chyrche also. And therfore no man fyndeth any fawte wyth Lyra, neyther to burne hym nor to be angry wyth hym/ but euery good man hathe good cause bothe to be angry and to burne vppe to, suche pestylent sedycyouse persons as not onely by iestynge, raylynge, and bylinge all those that are in dygnyte, prouoke to rebellyon the people that sholde obaye them/ but also vnder pretexte of techynge the trewe fayth, laboure to destroye the trewe fayth, and infecte good chrysten peple wyth false poysened heresyes. And amonge all those, one of the very wurst sort, and wheruppon all the remanaunt are in a maner byelded, wolde vnder colour of berynge fauour to the good vertuouse people that are in the chyrche, make men byleue that the whole chyrche wherof those good men be part, were not the chyrche in dede, bycause they wolde haue it vnknowen that men myghte haue no suretye of any trewe doctryne, but that heresyes myghte passe vncontrolled, whyle euery lewd felow myght constre the scrypture as hym selfe lyste, & no chyrche prouyded of god, to controlle hym and iudge who constrewed wronge, & by whyche chyrche men myghte [Tti] be sure of the necessary trouth. And yet to make yt the more vncertayne and the more vnsure/ Barons bryngeth the chyrch here in erthe to that kynde of goodnes, that except suche as be new crystened or very yonge, and yet scante they eyther, whyche be not yet ye wote well very mete to be made preachers: ellys saynte Austayne whome Barons bryngeth for hym, sayth playne agaynste hym, that there is in erthe no suche/ as I shall a none by his playne wordes proue you. But fyrst for the place of saynte Austayne whych of Barons bryngyng in I laste rehersed you/ ye se that saynt Austayne sayth in them no more, but that the chyrche was not onely the crysten people present at his sermone, nor onely those crysten peple that were in that citye, nor onely those that were in Afryke, but also all the faythfull crysten people that were in the worlde besyde. In whyche wordes he sayth so litle for frere Barns purpose, that I which dispute agaynst hym, say the same thynge my selfe, that all crysten nacyons professyng the trew fayth of Cryst, that is to say the comen catholyke fayth wherin the knowen catholyque chyrch agreeth, be the very holy chyrche of Cryste here in erth, and make amonge them the comen knowen catholique chyrch/ of whyche the very good men are parte, and are all called the faythfull people of Cryste, bycause of the vnyte of the trew fayth of Cryste. In whyche as for the necessary poyntes this whole corps agreeth wythout contradyccyon and repugnaunce bothe good people and badde. And therfore are they called all by that name, to make a distynccyon and seueraunce betwene that one catholyque chyrche of one bylyefe and fayth on the tone parte, and all myscreaunt paynyms, all false Iewes, all false heretyques, and all sedycyouse scysmatyques vppon the tother parte: of all whych as no secte agreeth wyth other/ so do they all impugne the trew fayth of the knowen catholyque chyrch/ in whych and of whyche be also all the vnknowen good vertuouse people, that haue trew cheryte With theyr fayth. But saynt Austayne meaneth not, that lyke as all the chyrch be faythfull, that is to say agreynge to gether in the trew bylyef, so they be all the mayny vertuouse in all poyntes bysyde/ and specyally so fully vertuouse and holy, as holy frere Barons appoynteth pure and clene wythout spot or wryncle. For lettynge other places of saynte Austayne alone for [Ttiv] the whyle/ loke but vppon this place onely that we be in hand wyth all/ whyche yf I myghte fynde ones in his proper place, I sholde I wene se farther thynges therin. But now consider no more for our purpose agaynst Barns, but euyn the begynnynge of saynte Austaynes wordes as Barons bryngeth them in hym selfe. Lo thus he begynneth. <2The>2 <2holy chyrche are we/ but I do not say we as one sholde say we that be here all>2 <2onely, but as many as befaythfull Chrysten men in this chyrche &c.>2 How thynke you good reders? Dothe saynt Austayne here meane by faythfull Crysten, no mo but onely suche as this faythlesse frere assygneth/ that is onely those that are not onely faythfull in the byleuynge the necessarye poyntes of the crysten fayth, but that were in theyr soule also bysyde so thorowly pure and clene, that they hadd myche as eyther spot or wryncle in theym? As though saynte Aus- tayne wolde say to his audience in his sermon in this wyse: wyll ye know good crysten people who be trewe members of holy chyrche? That shall I shortely shew you lo. Not euery body that byleueth ryght/ but we, that is to say you and I that not onely byleue ryght, but also be holy pure & clene wythoute eyther spot or wryncle. But yet when I say we be the chyrch: I meane not you & I only, as though there were no mo of the chyrch but my selfe and such other of you, as beynge at my sermon be such holy men as I am/ but also all suche other as be so pure and clene wythout spot or wryncle, as you & I be, where so euer they be, eyther in this towne or in this countrey, or elles where in all this wyde worlde. Lo good reders/ yf saynt Austayne ment as Barns maketh, that in this worde faythfull crysten folke makynge the whole chyrche, he ment not all crysten people that agre in professyon of fayth wyth the Whole corps of crystendom, but onely suche as besydes the profession of the trew fayth, were also so holy, pure, and clene, that they ney- ther haue spot nor wryncle: then were this tale in effecte as I haue rehersed you, that he called hym seffe suche a perfyte holy man/ whych worde I wene neuer man herde of his mouth. For there is no crysten man, but he may and muste professe of hym selfe, that he byleueth ryght and hath the trew fayth. But there be not I suppose many good holy men, that wyll say of them selfe, that they be holy, pure, & clene, and specyally wythout wyncle. And therfore yt ap[Tti]pereth well, that this worde fayth- full crysten folke, is not alway taken and ment by hym that speketh yt, for onely pure and clene holy men. And so those wordes of saynt Austayne nothynge make for frere Barons. And therfore ye maye se that in lykewyse doth Barons mysse take the glose that he alledgeth dis. 24. A recta/ which sayth that the chyrch whych can not erre, is ecclesia omnium fidelium, that is to say the chyrche of all faythfull folke. Whyche wordes frere Barons taketh, as though the wryter there by these wordes (all faythfull men) hadde ment no mo but all suche as were not onely trew byleuers, but also suche as were so pure and clene that they neyther had spot nor wryncle. But the wryter of that glose meneth nothyng so/ but meaneth as saynt Austayne ment in his wordes byfore rehersed, callynge all faythfull folke all cristen people, all the crysten nacyons/ all the whole corps and body ofthe catholyque chyrche, that agaynste paynyms, Iewes, heretyques, and scysmatykes, agree in the profes- syon of the comen crysten fayth, both in the poyntes of bylyef/ and in the rules of lyuynge/ though theyr lyuyng haue in dede many spottes, and many blottes, and many wrythen wryncles agaynste the rules whyche they professe, and whyche they knowledge and con- fesse them selfe bounden to kepe. And that the glose there meaneth of our knowen catholike chyrch as I saye, and not of any vnknowen chyrche as Barons wolde haue yt seme: euery man may perceue that can and wyll consyder well the place. For in that glose his purpose is no more, but to shew that there is more suerty of doctrine in the consent of the whole chyrch, that is to wyt the whole corps of crystendome to gether, then in the chyrch of Rome alone. And therfore that glose can nothyng serue frere Barons/ but yt vtterly destroyeth frere Barons false glosyng of saynte Austaynes wordes, & openeth well vnto vs what thynge saynte Austayne ment in this worde, all faythfull men. For surely neyther saynte Austayne nor that glose, ment by these wordes omnium fidelium, men clene and pure wythout any spotte or wryncles, no more then doth euery man that prayeth pro omnibus fidelibus, that god maye make theym all good men/ or pro animabus oninium fidelium defunctorum, that yt may please god to bryng them to heuen all such as are in the payn- full way thether warde/ men do not meane in the prayours onely such faythfull folke as [Ttiv] neyther haue spotte nor wryncle of synne. Now where that the glose sayth, there muste nedes be suche a chyrch: so say I to. For I say playnly that ye chyrch muste nedes be. For all the deuylles in hell, nor all theyr instrumentes vpon erth, shall neuer be able to destroy yt, but pull they neuer so many from yt, & leue they the remanaunt neuer so few: yet shall the remanaunt alway be the chyrch, and a well knowen chyrche, so byelded vppon that hygh mountayne, that is to wyt vppon Cryst, that yt shall alway be syghtely & can not be hydde. For as our sauyour sayth: The cytye that is set vppon a mountayne can not be hyd/ meanynge that his chyrche shold be well sene, and his trew ayth well knowen / and not that his chyrche in whych hys fayth sholde contynue, and in whyche & of whyche yt shold be lerned, sholde be suche an vnknowen thynge as they that wolde lerne: coulde neyther wote where to fynde yt nor of whome to aske for yt, nor so myche as know yt yf yt fortuned them to fall vppon yt by happe, as frere Barons wolde here brynge yt to. Also the tother glose that Barons bryngeth forth, De pene dis. 2. Si, that sayth, The whole chyrche can not erre: what maketh that glose for Barons? He speketh agaynste Barons. For Barons sayth that his owne chyrche whyche hym selfe assygneth, though she can not erre whyle she cleueth to her spouse/ yet she may leue hym and fall from him, and then erre. And so this glose that Barns bryngeth, saith clere agaynst hym/ how be yt no more then he semeth to do hym selfe. For yf yt be trew that he sayth of his chyrch that she may fall from god and not heare her husband, and then therby erre: then is yt false that he sayth in a nother place, that there muste nedes be suche a chyrche as can not erre/ whyche thynge he wolde proue by this glose of the lawe that saith, The whole chyrch can not erre. And yet ye se wel that this glose takyng yt after the beste fashyon for it, saith not as Barons sayeth, that the very chyrche is no mo but that very secrete sorte of faythfull folke that be wythout any errour, and ys be pure & clene wythoute spot or wryncle/ but he sayth that the whole chyrch that is to wit the knowen catholyque chyrche, can not all erre/ but that though that god wold suffer some partis or mem- bers of his chyrch to erre, yet he will not suffer the whole corps or body of hys chyrch to erre. This maketh playne agaynste Barons, that bryn[Vvi]geth it forth. For it affermeth that the trewth alwaye remayneth in the knowen catholyke chyrche / for of ys knowen chyrche he speketh there. I can not therfore meruayle inough of Barns in bryngyng forth these gloses for him, that make so clere agaynst hym/ and than to se him so boldely say therupon, <2These wordes be playne what chyrche>2 <2it is that can not erre.>2 As though these gloses had sayd as he sayth, ys the chyrch which can not erre is onely the vnknowen chyrch of folke pure & clene without any spot or wryncle/ of which thynges neyther nother glose speketh one worde. And yet where Barns sayth: These wordes of these gloses be playne: as playne as he maketh them of them selfe/ yet hath hym selfe made a playne chaunge of one worde in the tone of them, to make it seme the more playne for hym. For where he reherseth the glose by these wordes: The hole chyrch can not erre/ this worde erre is not there/ but the very wordes be, The whole chyrche can not fayle. Than be not ye wote well those wordes erre & fayle, precysely & playnely both one, neyther in wrytyng nor in voyce, nor yet in sygnyfycacyon/ no more than the two laten wordes <2errat>2 and <2deficit.>2 For a man may fayle & yet not erre. As he that doth auowtry & woteth wel he doth nought/ he fayleth and falleth from god, & yet erreth he not in fayth. A man maye also erre & yet not fayle nor fall awaye fro god/ syth euery errour is not dampnable. As a man myght erre and not fayle nor fall fro god therby nor be dampned therfore/ as Iacob dyd in wenyng that Lya had bene Rachell/ or as hys father Isaac dyd in wenynge that Iacob had ben Esau. But I say not thys, for that I care mych for his chaunge. But I mene that I wolde not haue hym come forth and make such great bostes of the playnesse of the wordes, whan he hath hym selfe made a chaunge in them, to make theym seme the more playne for hym/ and whan the wordes for all hys playne chaunge, make yet so playne agaynste hym. But veryly me thynketh that in one thynge he vseth no good honeste fashyon, in that he sayth fyrste: <2Thys maye be proued by your>2 <2owne lawe, whose wordes be these.: the whole chyrche can not erre. Also in an>2 <2other place. The congregacyon offaythfullfolke muste nedes be which also can>2 <2not erre.>2 All they that rede these wordes of Barns in englysshe, he maketh theym wene that the wordes whyche he reher[Vviv]seth for hys purpose, were the wordes of the very lawe it selfe, but then are they in dede no wordes of the lawe, but of certayne gloses that other men haue made vppon the law. And thys hym selfe confesseth in the mergent of hys boke. But that he doth in laten/ lettynge them that vnderstande no laten wene styll that it were the very lawes. Why doth he boste that he wyll preue it by the very lawes/ & than in stede of the lawes, brynge vs forth but gloses? Hys quotacyon is in the mergyn in thys maner. <2De pene. dis. 2. Si>2 <2in glossa.>2 For these wordes, <2The whole chyrche can not erre.>2 And than for the tother wordes, that is, <2The congregacyon offaythfull men must nedes be,>2 <2whych also can not erre/>2 his quotacyon is in the mergent thus.24. <2que.>2 <2I. A recta et in glossa.>2 So that he wold we shold wene that at the leste wyse those wordes were bothe in the texte and in the glose. But now who so loke vpon these two lawys, shall soone se that the cause why he dyd not, was bycause he durste not. For the 1aw.24. que. I. A recta, speketh clere agaynste hym. For that law sayth no thynge ellys, but that the very trew fayth wythout errour, hath bene euer preserued in the see apostolyke / and as the lawe calleth it 2o there, the mother of all chyrches the chyrche of Rome. And therfore thys lawe ye se wel was not for hys purpose to brynge in/ but in stede of the law he layeth vs forth a pache of the glose. Now the tother law de pene. dis. 2. Si/ that law durst he not brynge forth for fere of angeryng hys euangelycall brother Tyndale. For that lawe is the wordes of holy saynte Hierom/ wherin he con- futeth at great length, those heretykes that than helde the selfe same heresyes that Tyndale holdeth now, that they which be onys borne of god can neuer after synne. And the tother, that he which after his baptysme doth onys any dedely synne, shall neuer gete forgyuenes after. These two deuelysshe heresyes which Tyndale hath now begon agayn in hys false exposycyon of the fyrst pystle of saynt Iohan which false exposy- cyon of hys I haue before confuted in my fourth boke: holy saynt Hierom doth at good length openly confute, in the wordes whiche are there by Graciane incorporate in the decrees. Whiche wordes yf my selfe hadde remembred in tyme/ I wolde haue broughte theym in, in the stede of myne owne, and wolde peraduenture haue lefte myhe owne out for theym. For there sayeth saynte Hierome the selfe same thynges [Vvi] agaynst those other heretykes of old, ys I say there agaynst thys new/ and (as he better coulde) sayth them farre better than euer I shalbe able / as I wold make you sone perceyue yf I coulde in translatynge hys wordes into our englyshe tong, gyue it the quyknesse and strength that he gyueth it in the laten. But as I sayd, thys lawe durste not frere Barns bryng in for fere of Tyndale, whyche wolde for hurtynge of hys heresyes haue founden hym braulynge inough for all hys lyfe after. But Barns wyll I war- raunt you gyue hym no suche occasyon of dyspleasure. Now yf Barons answere me, that he hadde no cause to bryng in any of both those lawes, syth they made no thyng for hys purpose but the gloses onely: I shall tell hym agayne, that than he sholde not haue sayed it that he wolde proue hys purpose by the lawes, but by the gloses onely. And I say also that than he shold haue lefte out the gloses to. For as the lawes proue not hys purpose, no more do the gloses neyther, as I haue clerely declared you. And yet whan he hath handeled hym self so falsely, and yet so folyshly therwyth in the alledgynge of these lawes, that yf he hadde any sparke of shame lefte in hys body, he myghte not well loke any man in the face for fere that these hys false folyes were espyed: it is now a worlde to se wyth what a corage and boldenesse he bosteth and reioyceth, and what a ioye he maketh, as he were euyn made a kynge by the fyndynge of a bene in a chrystmas cake. For now he calleth hys lordes about hym and sayth, Now my lordes gather you all to gyther wyth all the lawes that ye can make, and all the holynesse that you can deuyse, and crye, the chyrche, the chyrche, and the counsels, the counsels that were law- fully gathered in the power of the holy goste (all thys may you saye and yet lye) And yf you haue not in dede the holy goste within you, and yf you do heare any other voyce than Chrystes/ than are you not of the chyrche but of the deuyll, and theuys and murtherers as Chryste sayth. For you come afore hym/ that is you come into the foulde of Chryst wythout hym. You brynge not his voyce/ but you come with your owne voyce, with youre owne statutes, wyth your owne worde, and with your owne mandamus, mandamus, praeci- pimus, praecipimus, excommunicamus, excommunicamus. These be the voyces of murtherers and theuys and not of Chryste. Therfore you can not but erre. For you be not taught of god/ you haue not the holy oyntemente, you haue not the worde of god for you/ you here not the voyce of the trewe sheaperd. Therfore must you nedes erre in all your counselles. [Vviv] What grounde or colour of grounde hath he to reigne so lordely and rayle so ryally vppon all the lawes? May he so boldely sette them all at nought, bycause hym selfe hath so falsely bylyed twayne, and so folyshely handeled theyr gloses? No Sowdan in a stage play may make mo braggyng bostys, nor ronne out in mo frantike ragys, than may frere frantyke Barns yf he take thys for reason. For here speking of lawes, and layeng but the gloses/ and the lawes agaynst hym, and hys gloses nothynge for hym: yet as though all the worlde were hys, he falleth forth in a rage agaynste all lawys, and all generall counsayles / and sayth, <2They haue not the voyce of god with>2 <2them>2 / <2but they muste nedes erre in all theyr counsayles, by cause they say>2 <2mandamus, mandamus, praecipimus, praecipimus, excommunicamus, ex->2 <2communicamus.>2 For he sayth that these wordes be the voyces of murtherers and theuys and not of Cryste. Thys felow cometh forth wyth a prowde face vpon all the worlde, whan he wolde by his pryncely authoryte more than an imperyall maiestye, proclayme afl men for murderers and theuys, that dare be so bolde as to vse any of these wordes mandamus, precipimus, or ex- communicamus. These wordes I se not sent out by murtherers nor theuys, but by prynces and rulers agaynst murderers and theuys and agaynst all other vycyouse and mysse ruled persons, and amonge other agaynste vngraciouse heretykes, which is all thys mannys gryefe. And that these wordes of commaundynge haue bene vsed by folke somwhat better then theuys and murderers, may appere by the scryp- ture it selfe. For the holy euangelyste saynt Marke sayeth of our sauyour thus: He commaunded hys apostles that they shold cary no thynge wyth them as they went by the waye. And saynt Poule wryteth vnto the Thessalonyes in thys wyse: O my bretherne, I truste in god of yow that ye kepe and wyll kepe all thynges that I haue commaunded you. And agayne to Timothe thus he sayth: I commaunde the before god &c. And thus frere Barns maye se, that the wordes of commaundynge, be not alwaye the voyce of murderers and theuys. But all the greate gryefe of thys mater is in excommunicamus. For that worde wolde frere Barns haue dampned. But yet muste he consyder that saynt Poule hym selfe vsed eyther that same worde or some other in the language that [Vvi] he spake, when he dyd excommunycate and accurse Hymineus and Alexander, and bytoke them to the deuyll to teche them to Ieue theyr blasphemy, suche as these heretyques vse now, and yet peraduenture lesse/ for greater yt coulde not be. Saynte Poule also commaunded the Corynthies, that they shold excommuni- cate and accurse oute of theyr company, that incestuouse lecherour that had abused his own faders wyfe. For thus he sayth in the fyrst pystle to the Corynthies: Trewly I beynge absent in body but yet present in spyryt, haue all redy determined as though I were present, of him that hath thus done, when you are gathered to gether and my spyryte in the name of our lorde Iesu Cryste, in vertue of oure lorde Iesu, delyuere hym to the deuyll for the punyshement of the fleshe, that the spyryt may be saued in the day of our lorde Iesu Cryste. God also dyd accurse and excommunycate Lucyfer and all his proude felowes out of heuen. But bycause there neded no voyce in that/ therfore wyll frere Barons saye that there was none excom- municamus. But yet at the daye of iugement, our sauyour shall say to them that wyll do no good workes, but wene by frere Barns doc- trine that onely fayth sholde saue them/ to them shall he say: Go ye cursed wreches into euerlastynge fyre, whyche is prepared for the deuyll and his angelis. Here shall our sauyour hym selfe vse an excommunicamus/ from whyche I pray god for hys mercy so mende frere Barons and me bothe, that we fall not in it. For that is a sorer excommunicamus then any man vseth now/ wherwyth many shalbe murdered in soule, not by any crueltye vpon his parte, but by iustice thorow theyr own dedes. And therfore excommunicamus is not the voyce of onely murderers and theuys, as frere Barns maketh it. But surely good reders ye must pardon hym. For yt appereth that the man was in a sore fyt of a fury, when he fellin to this rage/ the fumes wherof ascended so hote vp to hys hed, that he raued and wyste nere what he sayde. And in that dysease he can not tell how myche harme he doth hym selfe, wyth lettynge his crowne grow so. For his heere kepeth his hed to hote. It were more nede in suche a fyt of fury, for fere of bredynge some impostume in his brayne, to poll his hed of euery whyt, and let yt lye bare, and lay there to refrigerans Galeni, tende yt well wyth oxirodanon. [Vviv] Here ye se that in this hete he sayeth all the counsayles muste erre. How be yt in a nother place at such tyme as his fyt was not so sore vpon hym, he sayth no more but that all the counsayleS may err e / bycause that though there be some good men in yt, yet the whole assemble doth but represent the chyrche, and all the whole catholyke chyrch is not there in dede. For thus he sayth, <2Gather allyour coun->2 <2sayles to gether, andyet of them canye not make holy chyrche. But peraduenture>2 <2there may be many inyour counsayles good andperfyte men and of holy chyrche.>2 <2But they andyou to gether make not the vnyuersall holy chyrche that can not>2 <2erre.>2 And in a nother place Barns sayth, <2It can not helpe to say that the>2 <2counsayll can not erre, bycause that Cryst dyd pray for his chyrch that her>2 <2fayth shold notfayle. For I answere to this, that though the generall counsayle>2 <2do represent the hole vnyuersall chyrch, neuerthelesse in very dede there is not>2 <2the very vnyuersall chyrch but representatiue. For the vnyuersall chyrch standeth>2 <2in the eleccion of allfaithfull men. And allfaithfull men of the worl>2 <2the vnyuersall chirch, whose hed and spouse is Cryste Iesus. And the pope is but>2 <2the vycare of Chryste, and not the very hed of the chyrche. Thys is the chyrche>2 <2that can not erre &c.>2 By these wordes of his ye maye good reders perceyue two thynges. One that there shall neuer generall counsayll (be yt neuer so great and be yt neuer so full) haue any full credence or any great authoryte wyth frere Barons, in any thynge that shalbe there concluded, yf any one man, ye or woman eyther, of all the whole catholyque chyrche though the chyrch were now all the whole world, were absent from the treatynge therof Now this poynte ye wote well wolde sone be eased/ no more but the counsayle house yf yt be happely somwhat to lytle, let make yt in goddes name so mych the larger. For other let I can se none. For as for commynge to gether from all countreys to ys generall counsayle, frere Barns seeth well that may be done well inough. For why not as well as freres from all places to a generall chapyter? And as for robbynge of any mannys house whyle he were from home, were a thynge out of fere. For whyle they must come all the mayny man, woman, & chyld/ who shall tary behynde to robbe his neyghbours house? And to put doutes that some shall peraduenture be syke and may not come/ this were but fyndynge of a knotte in a ryshe. For come they muste whyther they may or no. For ellis is there not ys counsaile of the whole chyrch, and then may yt erre, and therfore wyll not Barns byleue yt. [Vv,i] Now as for vyctuales/ they may prouyde at home and brynge wyth them in bagges and botelles, euery man for thre dayes at the leste, as the scottes do for a skyrmyshe. The tother poynt is, that ye may se by these wordis, that yf all the whole chyrche were at the counsayle/ then wolde frere Barons agre that yt coulde not erre/ and so wolde he therfore geue vndouted credence therunto, and byleue that suche a generall counsayle coulde not be damnably deceyued in the construccyon of scrypture. Now thynke I that though frere Barons wyll not byleue any generall counsayle, but yf the whole chyrch be there: yet he loketh not that in any counsayle euery thynge shold stay, and nothyng passe tyll all the whole assemble were agreed so fully vppon one syde, that there were not so mych as any one man there of the contrary mynde. For though some one man myght in some one mater be of a better mynd at the fyrste then the multytude/ yet in a counsayle of wyse men when it were purposed, yt were lykely to be perceyued and alowed. And in a counsayle of crysten men the spyryt of god in- clyneth euery good man to declare hys mynde, and inclyneth the congregacion to consente and agree vppon that that shall be the beste, eyther precysely the beste, or the beste at the leste wyse for the season: whyche when so euer yt shall be better at any other tyme to chaunge, the same spyryte of god inclyneth his chyrche eyther at a new counsayle, or by as full and whole consent as any counsayle can haue, to abrogate the fyrste & turne yt into the better. But when the counsayle and the congregacion agreeth and consenteth vppon a poynt/ yf a few wylfull folke, farre the lest both in nomber, wyt, lernynge, and honest lyuynge, wolde reclayme and say that them selfe wolde not agre, yet were theyr frowardnes no let vnto the determynacyon or to the makyng of the law/ but that it must stando tyll yt be by a nother lyke authoryte chaunged. But these chaunges that I speke of, I meane in thynges to be done & not in trouthes to be byleued. For in dyuerse tymes, dyuerse thynges may be conuenyent/ and dyuerse maners of doynge. But in maters of bylyefe & fayth, whyche be trouthes reueled & declared by god vnto man/ though that in dyuerse times there may be mo thinges farther and farther reueled, and other then were desclosed at the fyrst: yet can there neuer any thynge be by god reueled after, that [Vviv] can be contrary to any thynge reueled by hym selfe byfore. And therfore in thynges to be done, frere Barns may fynd that dyuerse counsayles haue in dyuerse artycles of fayth, as necessary artycles to be byleued/ frere Barons shall neuer fynde whyle he lyueth, that any one generall counsayle orderly called to gether, impugned and reproued a nother/ that grace our lord be thanked hath he geuen his knowen catholyque chyrche euer hytherto, what so euer frere Barons bable. And when god shall geue me a nother leysour, after such other thynges done as I haue entended fyrste: I purpose to make this poynte appere well & playne, by the selfe same counsayles that frere Barns hath brought in for the profe of the contrary. And that shall I then make playne & open to men vnlerned. For as for suche as are lerned in the mater/ may now all redy perceyue that this that I haue euen nowe all redy sayde, soyleth concernynge the counsayles, all that euer frere Barons hath sayde in all hys processe. But now bycause frere Barns saith ys the cause why the counsayles may erre, is bycause they be not the whole catholyque chyrche, but onely by way of representacyon / and sayth that the whole vnyuersall chyrch standeth in the eleccyon of all faythfull men/ and that all faythfull men of the worlde make the vnyuersall chyrche, whose hed and spouse is Cryste Iesus, and the pope vycare vnder Cryste, and confesseth and saith that this chyrch can not erre: lettyng now passe therfore for the whyle that he semeth byfore to say the contrary, where he sayth of this same chyrche, that by fallynge from her spouse she may erre, let vs now for Barons pleasure imagyne that this same chyrch that he speketh of, that is to wyt all the faythfull people from all partes of the worlde/ and bycause we wolde be sure there sholde be none of them all thense, let vs take it that all the crysten nacyons were from all places vpon one fayre day comen into some one fayre playne feld, wherof I know none fayrer then the playne of Salys- bury/ prouydynge that for feare of a rayn the whole playne haue a fayre roufe sette vppon it/ for lesse I wene then the whole playne were to lytle/ for we muste putte that there were not onely all the men, but also all the women to, for they be parte of this vnyuersall chyrche/ and we wyll not onely take in here all the crysten nacyons, but also who so euer crysten man or woman were in any na[Xxi]- cyon yet vncrystened, or who so euer in any suche place had a chrysten purpose, & fauored the name and fayth of Cryste wyth entent to be chrystened. And yet bycause I wolde be out of all brabelynge wyth Barns, we wolde take in to the nomber, not onely all false secrete heretykes openly professynge the chrysten fayth and secretely muterynge the contrary, of whyche wreches there be some in the knowen catholyke chyrche all waye/ but also all false open here- tykes, and scismatykes, whych by playne professyon of theyr scismes and heresyes, are gone out or cast out of the knowen catholyke chyrche, & are knowen for her mortall enemyes. Leste Barns wold as I say pretende that all they or some of them, were of the very chyrche/ we wyll take in them to. And nowe I trowe we haue a full assembly of the whole chyrche, and rather mo to, than lefte any one out. But yet thys generall counsayle wolde I not haue holden at thys daye. For all though I mysse truste not, but that god wolde wurke all well inough by the meane of the good menne though there were many badde therin: yet to thentent that frere Barons sholde the more fully be satysfyed and put the lesse dowte therin, I wold the coun- sayle were in some tyme, before the tyme that these folke saye the chyrche was ledde in to errour. And syth they call that tyme the tyme of thys.viii. hundred yeres last passed: lette vs take the tyme in whyche saynt Gregory was pope/ for that is now more than.ix. hundred yere a go. And saynte Gregory was a good man and a good pope, and so good that I thynke none heretyke dare for shame saye the contrarye. Now let vs than suppose also that there had in the same tyme ben a fonde frantyke frere, and that hys name hadde ben Luther/ and that there had than also bene a noughty nonne, and that her name had ben Cate/ & that thys fonde frantyke frere hadde wedded thys noughty nonne / and that there hadde ben than one wyllyam Tyndale, that had bene so madde as to saye they dyd well, bycause the frere hym selfe for the defence of hys owne lechery, had told hym that by the scrypture he myghte lawfully do it/ and that there had bene than also an other frere called Robert Barons, that mysse lyked it not/ but was hym seffe also ronne out of relygyon, abiured of heresy, and periured by relapse, [Xxiv] and royled aboute lyke a laye man, raylynge agaynste relygyon and all the knowen catholyke chyrche, in contempt of hys vowe and hys othe to/ and of all good chrysten people vppon erth, and wythdrawynge theyr honour from all the sayntes in heuyn. Suppose me now that in thys full generall counsayle of the whole vnyuersall chyrch assembled, thys mater were proponed, and there the same frere Frappe and Kytte Cate hys make, and those other that wolde aflowe theym were brought forth to be herde/ beyng at that tyme but these persons that I haue rehersed you, what they wolde say therto. And therupon Luther hym selfe hauyng the wordes wherof he Wolde neuer lacke plenty (tyll fransye lacke foly) wold there not onely defende, but also boste hys bestely maryage and saye that vowys of chastyte coude bynde no man, for no man oughte to make theym/ but it were synne and presumpcyon for any man to make them, but yf he hadde that gyfte gyuen hym of god, for it is a thynge whyche euery man can not do, and a gyfte whyche no man can gyue hym selfe, but yf it be gyuen hym of god. And therfore who so maketh any suche vowe, wenynge that he haue the gyfte bycause he feleth no contrary grudge at that tyme/ yet whan so euer he feleth after any flesshely mocyon in hys frayle membres, he maye thanne perceyue well and be very sure, that he hath not the gyfte/ and that therfore he was deceyued by the deuyll, whan he made hym self a frere. And that he maye now therfore ronne out of his relygyon, and folow the flesshe. And whan he fyndeth a nonne that feleth the lyke, and that eche of theym fele other, and lyke well eche other for theyr felynge fayth/ than maye they bothe be sure that they maye boldely breke both theyr vowes, and wedde theym selfe to gyther. And therby shall they fele by theyr flesshely felyng fayth, that they two be two specyall electes predestynate by god byfore the worlde was wrought to go to gether in this world and brynge forth holy frute to serue the deuyll at hys dyner. What wolde the generall counsayle of the whole chyrch haue sayd vnto that frere, and what vnto flekke hys make, and what vnto that deuelysh doctryne? There wold saynt Gregory haue vsed those wordes that he wryteth of Ananyas and Saphyra, sayenge: Ananias vowed hys money [Xxi] vnto god, whyche money afterwarde he beynge ouercome by the perswasyon of the deuyll kepte backe, ye know with what maner deth he was ponysshed. Wherfore syth he was deth worthy that wythdrewe from god the money whyche hym selfe had gyuen to god: consyder how greate ieopardy thou shalt be worthy at the dyuyne iudgement, that wythdrawest not money, but thy selfe from almyghty god/ vnto whom thou hast vowed thy self vnder a relygyous habyte. And I dare boldely say that all that whole generall counsayle of all the whole catholike chyrch of all faythfull folke wyth all the secrete vnfaythfull folke ys than were lurkynge in it, and all the faythlesse heretykes that were at that tyme gone from it or accursed out of it, excepte the frere and hys nonne and hys few folysshe adherentes/ wolde wyth one voyce, with mandamus, mandamus, precipimus, precipimus, excommunicamus, excommunicamus, haue condempned that abomynable heresye to the very deuyll of hell. And I am sure that so wolde it haue ben, yf any man durste there haue holden any one of many other heresyes, that these felowes holde now. Than what myghte Luther and Barns haue sayed to that generall counsayle? For that were the counsayle that coulde not erre. For there were the wole catholyke chyrch in whyche nomber were bothe the chyrch of all electe repentaunt synners that Tyndale deuyseth, and the chyrche of all faythfull people that Barns deuyseth/ sauyng for lacke of all spottes and wryncles, for that lacketh no man in this worlde. How be it yf there were at that tyme any suche as Barns sayth there must nedes be/ than in that counsayle they muste nedes be. For therto haue we brought all both the good and the badde. Now yf frere Barns, & frere Luther, and wyllyam Tindale, wolde than haue sayed that the very chyrche dyd not condempne them/ for the very chyrche was not that greate multytude that there condempned them of heresye/ but the very chyrche was them selfe that there were condempned and persecuted for the truth, and such other good faythfull folke as were vnknowen amonge that company, and secretely agreed wyth them in faythe, that no vowe of chastyte shold let them, but that freres and nonnes myght lawfully wedde whan they lyste: To thys wold saynt Gregory sone haue answered & sayd: syrs they ys are ye good faythful folke [Xxiv] that ye speke of/ whych onely folke for fayth and goodnesse ye call the chyrch, can not be dyssemblers of theyr fayth but professours of theyr fayth. But now excepte your selfe/ all thys people condempne your fayth for heresye. Wherfore it appereth that eyther they be good men and saye as they thynke, and than be you condempned by good men/ or els yf they saye as they thynke, and the thyng that they thynke is nought/ than are they euyll men/ and than are they not your secrete chyrche of good men. Or ellys they saye one thynge and thynke the contrary/ and than are they euyll men also/ and so none of your secrete chyrche of good men are they neyther. Or fynally they saye trewe and be euyll folke for other synnys/ and than be they yet none of your secrete chyrche of good men, and also do ryghtfully con- dempne you in that they saye trewe. And therfore eyther we that here excommunycate you frome vs be the very chyrche, or some parte of vs is the chyrche/ and whyther of the two so euer it be, ye be than condempned by the whole chyrch which ye confesse can not erre: or ellys is there none other shyfte, but sith ye haue here no mo felowes, ye must nedes afferme that ye your owne selfe be the very chyrche, and no mo persons but your selfe. To thys must it nedes haue comen ye se well good readers, there were none other remedy. And whan it were onys comen vnto that/ than were it no dowte but that Luther, Barns, & Tyndale, wolde not haue letted to say/ Mary we with Luthers wyfe the nonne be the whole chyrche. For we haue the ryght faith, & ye be all in the wronge. For we haue the scrypturs for vs/ by whyche we wyll proue the vowe of chastyte vnlawfull, & our weddynge lawfull/ and so forth in suche other artycles, as farre out of colour as that. And syth the scrypture is on our parte/ we be the very chyrche. Saynte Gregory wolde haue lacked none answere to this / but wold haue sayed: whan all we thynke that ye vnderstande the scryp- ture wronge/ and not onely we, but all lerned men before vs hyther- to: why sholde we byleue that you few se ferther in the scrypturre than all they to whome it belongeth as well as to you fewe, & whyche haue studyed it as well as you, and haue had both as mych wytte as you and also myche more grace than you, as appereth well by the wrytynges of holy doctours & sayntes that constrewed the scrypture agaynste your heresyes before all our dayes? [Xxi] If Barons wolde then haue sayde as he sayth here, whyther you that are this counsayle that here condempne vs be the very chyrche or no it muste be tryed by the scripture/ for that is the thynge by which we must know the very chyrch, whych may be proued by the wordes of saynt Chrysostome whyche be these. Barns. They that be in Iudea, lette them fle vp in to the mountaynes/ that is to saye, they that be in chrystendome, lette theym gyue them selfe to scryptures. Wherfore commaundeth he that all chrystened men in that tyme, shulde flye vnto scrypturs? For in that tyme in the whyche heresies haue optayned in to the chyrch/ there can be no trewe probacyon of chrystendome, nor no nother refuge vnto chrysten men, wyllynge to knowe the veryte of fayth, but the scryp- turs of god. Afore by many wayes was it shewed which was the chyrche of Cryste, and whiche was the congregacyon of gentyles. But now there is none other waye to knowe vnto them that wyll knowe whiche is the very trew chyrche of Chryste, but alonely by scryptures. By workes fyrste was the chyrche of Cryst knowen whan the conuersacyon of chrysten men other of all or of many were the whiche holines had not the wycked men, but now chrysten men be as euyll or worse than heretykes or gentylys/ ye and greater con- tinencye is founde amonge them than amonge chrysten men. Wher- fore he that wyll knowe whiche is the very chyrch of Cryste/ how shall he know but by scripturs onely? Wherfore our lorde con- syderynge that so great confusyon of thynges, shulde come in the latter dayes/ therfore commaundeth he that chrysten men whyche be in chrystendome wyllynge to reserue the stedfastnesse of trewe fayth shulde flye vnto none other thynge but vnto scryptures/ for yf they haue respecte vnto other thynges they shall be slaundered and shall peryshe/ not vnderstandynge whyche is the trewe chyrche &c. These wordes nede no exposycion, they be playne inough, they do also exclude all maner of lernynge sauynge holy scrypture/ wherfore se how you can wyth honesty saue your holy lawes/ and defende them agaynst Chrysostome. More ouer yf Chrysostome complayne of the incontynency that was in his dayes/ how wold he complayne yf he now lyued, and sawe the baudry and fornycacyon that is in the chyrch? Also he sendeth men to scriptures that will know the holy chyrch / and not vnto the holy chyrch, for in the chyrch were heresyes but not in scrypture. Also saynt Paule wytnesseth the same sayenge / you are bylte vppon the foundacyon of the apostles and prophetes/ here haue you playnely that the very trew chyrche is grounded ye and founded of holy scrypture/ and therfore where so euer that the worde of god is preched/ that is a good token that there be some men of Christes chyrche. But now as to the frutes and workes of this chyrche, she dothe alonely fetche out her maner of lyuynge/ and all her good workes out of the holy worde of god / and she fayneth not nor dremeth any other new holynesse or newe [Xxiv] inuented workes that be not in scrypture, but she is content wyth Chrystes lernynge, and byleueth that Chryst hath suffycyently taught her all maner of good workes that be to the honour of our heuenly father. Therfore inuenteth she none other waye to heuen but foloweth Chryste onely/ in sufferynge oppressyons and persecucyons, blasphemynges, and all other thynges that may be layed vnto hyr/ whyche as saynt Austayne sayth she lerned of our mayster Cryste. Our holy mother the chyrche thorow out all the worlde scatered farre and longe/ in her trew hedde Chryste Iesus taught/ hath lerned not to fere the contumelys of the crosse nor yet of deth, but more and more ys she strengthed, not in resystynge but in sufferynge. Now my lordes compare your selfe to thys rule of saynt Austayne/ and let vs se how you can brynge your selfe into the chyrche? or elles to proue your self to be holy? The chyrche sufferth persecucyons (for as saynte paule sayth/ they that wyll lyue deuoutly in Chryste muste suffer persecucyon) and you wythstande all thynges and suffer nothynge/ you oppresse euery man, and you wyll be oppressed of no man/ you persecute euery man, and no man may speke a word agaynst you, no though yt be neuer so trewe/ you caste euery man in pryson, and no man may touche you but he shall be cursed/ you compell euery man to say as you saye, and you wyll not onys say as Cryst sayth/ and as for your holynes all the world knoweth what yt is, for yt standeth in clothynge and in deckynge, in watchyng and slepynge, in eatynge and in drynkynge this meate or that meate, this drynke or that drynke/ in patteryng and mumblyng these psalmis or that psalmis with out deuocyon. Breuely all your holynes is in bokes, belles, candelles, chalyces, oyle, creame, water, horses, houndes, pallycis, and all that is myghty and gloryouse in the worlde there on hange you, there in glorye you/ there on crake you/ there on boste you/ theruppon byelde you. Is thys the natures of the chyrche? ys this holynes? of whome haue you lerned this maners? More. If frere Barons hadde alledged all this in that generall counsayle/ saynt Gregory coulde haue tolde hym, that as touchynge saynte Poule, he spake not in that place precysely of the scrypture, as though he wolde haue sayd that the crysten people were edyfyed and byelded onely vppon the wrytynges that the prophetes and apostles hadde wryten. For many thynges haue made and yet make vnto the edyfycacion of Cristen people, that were by the apostles delyuered wythout wrytynge, as is playne by other wordes of saynte Poule hym  selfe, where he byddeth the Thessalonyans kepe the tradycyons whyche ye haue lerned, eyther by preachynge or by our pystle. And in many places edyfyed he myche peple, where we fynde not that he gaue them any writyng at all. And the Ephesians them selfe to whom [Xxi] in those wordes he writeth that they were edyfyed and byelded vppon the foundacyon of the apostles and prophetes, what prophetes wrytynges that they hadde then redde, I can not tell, but as for wrytynges of apostles or euangelystes yt is well lykely that they hadde yet at that tyme redde neuer one. And saynte Gregory wolde peraduenture haue meruayled, yf saynte Poule wolde haue sayde as frere Barons bereth vs in hande he sayd, that crystendome were onely byelded vppon the apostles and prophetes/ for yt is moste specyally byelded vppon our sauyoure hym selfe, and so myghte saynte Poule in those wordes very well and properly meane sayeng/ ye be byelded vppon the foundacyon of the apostles and prophetes/ that is to say, ye be byelded vppon the same foundacyon that they be byelded on, that is to wyt Cryste, that is and was the very foundacyon as well of them, as of you, though they were layed on byfore and you after/ yet the very foundacyon vppon Whyche ye be byelded and they bothe, is that corner stone that is layed in the hed of the angle that ioyneth both the sydes in one. And this exposycyon of saynt Poules wordes to the Ephesyans, wyll well agree wyth his other wordes writen vnto the Corynthians, where he sayth, no man can laye any other foundacyon then that that is all redy layed, that is to wyt Iesus Cryste hym selfe. Where as frere Barons so taketh saynt Poules wordes there vnto the Ephesyans/ as though saynte Poule had sayde vnto them, The foundacyon that ye be byelded vppon, is the wrytynge that the prophetes & the apostles haue wryten for your edyfycacyon/ and therfore must you se that you byleue nothyng, nor do nothyng but suche as you fynd wryten in the wrytynges of the prophetes and the apostles/ then yf they had neuer a boke wryten of the apostles that were at that tyme comen to theyr handes, as yt was lykely there was not/ howe wold then those wordes frame? And also yf he ment but so/ then toke he away the authoryte from all the scrypture besyde/ except onely the writyng of the apostles and prophetes, and from all that hym selfe tolde them bysyde by mouth. But yet yf frere Barons wolde there haue sayde vnto saynte Gregory all those wordes wyth whyche in his boke here he rayleth on by and by agaynste the thynges vsed in [Xxiv] the knowen catholyque chyrch, belles, bokes, candelles, vestymentes, chalyces, holy crysme, oyle, and holy water, and watchyng, forberynge fleshe, drynkynge of water, fastyng, and prayenge, which Barns calleth paterynge, & mumblyng of these psalmes and those psalmys wythout deuocyon/ as though hym selfe hadde an yie and an eare in euery mannys herte: saynte Gregory wolde sone fynde hym good places inough in scrypture for these kyndes of workes plentuously and full. And as for such workis as be vycyouse in dede, whyche Barons planteth in amonge these as though all were of one sort/ saynt Gregory wold agre them for nought/ and so do they to that vse them. But yet wolde saynte Gregory tell hym that yf he were honeste or trew, he sholde not lay the fautes of the noughtye partes to the blame of the whole body/ in whych be many full good. And specyally yf he wold dysprayse the euyll workes, he sholde not yet as he doth disprayse & call euyll the thynges that are very good, and whyche deuoutely done (as wyth many they be) are greatly plesaunt to god/ and specyally he shold not among other thynges dispyse and reproue belles for callyng folke to goddes seruyce/ nor vestymentes, candelles, bokes, and chalyces, wythout which or at the leste wyse wythout some of whyche neyther masse may be sayde, nor the blessed sacrament in the masse conse- crated and receyued/ but yf he wold haue euery prest haue al by hert, & the blessed blood of Crist wythout chalyce layed and lycked vp vpon the auter cloth. But then wolde saynte Gregorye haue sayde farther to frere Barons and to frere Luther to/ that syth they were so precyse, that they wolde haue no workes wrought, but onely such as they founde in scrypture: he wolde aske theym why they be runne both oute of relygyon/ and the tone wedded a nunne, and both broken theyr holy sacred vowis / and stubernly defende that worke whyche they fynde so fully condempned and abhorred in scrypture. To the wordes of saynte Chrysostome saynte Gregorye wolde I trow haue answered frere Barns/ that they were none of his. For yt is well perceyued and knowen that the worke whych is called <2Opus>2 <2imperfectum,>2 the imperfayt worke vppon the gospell of saynte Mathew, whych was fyrste by the erroure and ouersyght of Some wryters intyteled vnto saynt Chrysostome, and the same tytle so suffred synnes to stande/ was neuer his worke in dede, nor neuer translated [AAi] out of the greke but made by some laten man, as frere Barons hath all redy had suffycyent warnynge by mo thanne one, that can a lytell better skyll therof then I and he both/ and I veryly byleue that agaynst hys owne conscyence he ascrybeth that wurke to saynt Chrysostom. For all be it the man was cunnyng, well spoken, & in many thynges wrytetll very well/ yet yf frere Barns haue redde that worke (except he vnderstand hym not, or els be him selfe bysyde his other heresyes an Arrian to) ellys muste he nedes perceyue that the man was infected with that faute/ and therfore was it no meruayle though he wold as fayne brynge the very chyrche in questyon, & oute of knowledge as now frere Barns wold hym selfe. But saynt Chrysostom hym self in his own sermon vpon the self same wordes of the gospell, They that be in Iudea let them fle into the mountayns, whych is his.76. sermon vpon saint Mathew, hath not such a word. But he whom frere Barns here bryngeth, whose wurke was as I haue sayd by errour & ouersyght entiteled in the name of saynt Chrysos- tom: for as mych as by the authoryte of the chyrche, his heresye agaynst the godhed of Chryst was condempned, dyd as euer more such men haue done, that is to wytte, labored fyrst to haue yf it could haue ben, theyr own secte taken for the very chyrche. For so wolde the Arryans haue semed to be, & the catholykes they called heretykes. And whan that thyng wold not be obtayned, than labored they that at the lest the very catholyke chyrch myght seme vncertayn, & be taken for a chyrche vnknowen/ and hange vpon euery mannes dysputacyon, so that they myght ys better brynge theyr heresye forth styll in questyon, and begyle here & there some vn- lerned & newfangled people wyth the colour of theyr false expown- ynge of holy scrypture, whyle there shold be no certayn knowen chyrch, by whiche the trew exposycyon and the false sholde be dyscerned & iudged. And therfore that man albe it he was as it semeth in the tyme whan that heresye of the Arrians was almoste ouerwhelmed, & therfore durste not playnely speke myche of it/ yet coulde he not hold but somwhat shew hym selfe in that worke in his.xix. sermon that he wryteth vpon these wordes, <2Attendite a falsis prophetis,>2 wherin he not onely laboreth sore to mynyshe as mych as he maye the credence of the catholyke chyrch both concerning ys vertuose workes whych were vsed therin, & the myracles which were dayly done therin, Which two thynges he perceyued to stand sore in his lyght for the [AAiv] knowlege of ys catholike chyrch/ but also inueheth agaynst it and findeth a specyall hyghe faute with it, for bycause it taught to byleue the egall godhed of the.iii. persons of the trinite. And therfore wolde saynt Gregory haue tolde frere Barns that it was not saynt Chrysostome, but some man that was to be redde warely and wyth good iudgement, & in thys mater hys wordes worthy no credence. And yet yf frere Barns wold haue stycken styll as styffely for ys wurke, as he doth agaynst the pystle of saint Iamys/ & wolde nedes haue it taken for saynt Chrysostoms: than wold saynt Gregory haue told hym that the wordes which hym selfe bryngeth out of ys worke, be playne agaynst frere Barns hym self For well ye wote that frere Barns techeth that the very catholyke chyrche is in this worlde a chyrche euer vnknowen. And he that wrote the wordes whiche Barons bryngeth forth (whom he calleth saynt Chrysostome) sayth no more but that in some tymes the chyrche maye by reason of so great or so many sectes of heretykes arysen & sprongen vp therin, be brought in dowt & questyon whych of so many sectes or of some few so great were the very chyrche/ & yet in all this meneth he, which knowen chyrch of the great, or of the many were the trew/ & not as Barns wolde haue it that it were some few scatered persons vnknowen/ here one and there one/ eyther of them all or of diuers of them or of none of theym, but peraduenture men of some other kynde of fayth agreynge wyth none of them all. More ouer these wordes of saynt Chrysostome yf they were his do confesse that the very chyrch was onys knowen/ and therfore wolde saynt Gregory tell frere Barns, ys they do vtterly confounde frere Barns heresye. For hys heresye is, that the chyrche is such a spyrytuall thyng that neyther it self or any member or part therof at any tyme can be knowen. Forthermore where in those wordes saynt Chrysostome (yf those wordes & that worke were hys) sayth that to know whych is ye chyrch we must flye to the scrypture, saynt Gregory wold tell frere Barns that syth saynt Chrysostom sendeth vs to the scrypture to know therby whych of all those dyuers chyrches/ beyng to gyther all at one tyme/ is ys very chirch/ he meneth ys by the scrypture ys same chyrche may be knowen: wherof it foloweth agayn agaynste frere Barns that the selfe same wordes by whych he wold proue vs that the chyrch can not be knowen, do playnely confounde frere Barns/ and saye that the chyrche may be knowen. And saynt Gregory could I wote well haue gyuen him [AAi] tokens inough open playne & euydent wryten in the playn scrypture, of whyche I haue my selfe shewed some all redy and mo shall I in the laste boke of thys worke, by whyche euery man may playnely per- ceyue, that this knowen catholyke chyrche is the very trewe chyrche of Cryste. Also saynt Gregory wolde haue tolde frere Barns, that whan saynt Chrysostome (yf those wordes were hys) dothe sende vs to seke the chyrche by the scrypture, he thought it necessary that the chyrche were founden. For els he myght haue sent theym onely to the scryp- ture, to lerne the trewe fayth and good lyuynge euery man by hym Selfe, and leue the chyrche vnsought. But it appereth synnys he sendeth them to seke it there/ he meaneth not onely that they there maye fynde the meanes to fynde it and know it, as I sayd before/ but also that to fynde it & know it, is a thyng so necessary that nedys it ought to be had/ bycause of the trewe doctryne to be taught them by the same chyrche, as well in any other thyng that god hath by hys holy spyryte taught the same chyrche, as also in thynges neces- sary to saluacyon the trewe vnderstandynge of the same scrypture/ and than syth he wolde that the readers of tlie scrypture shold fynd out the trew chyrch to lerne of it the trew exposycyon of the scrip- ture, and of an vnknowen chyrch no man can lerne by gyuynge it credence as to the trew chyrch/ theruppon wold saynt Gregory yet agayne conclude, that these wordes of saynt Chrysostome yf they were hys/ do clerely confounde frere Barns. And therfore wolde he fynally put frere Barons in choice, whyther he wyl haue those wordes taken for saynt Chrysostoms or no. If he wold not haue them taken for his/ than wolde saynt Gregory byd hym go scrape that authoryte out of his boke agayne, & say no ferther but that one man wryteth thus but I wote nere who, sauynge that an Arrian he was. Now yf he wyll haue theym saynte Chrysostoms wordes, than appereth it playne wolde saynt Gregory say, by ys same wordes ys saynt Chrysostom in the selfe same few wordes whiche Barons bryngeth forth for hym, doth.iiii. or.v. tymes clerely & playnely confounde hym. Now yf these folke wolde yet haue stycked styll, and say the decre of that counsayle made agaynst them was nought, for they them selfe onely be the very trewe chyrch of Cryst: than wolde saynte Gregory haue sayed at laste: why syrs how can that be? For ye wote well that of knowen chyrches there was neuer none that durste professe them selfe for the [AAiv] very chyrche, but euer they founde theym selfe so farre in that poynt to weyke, that they were fayne in conclusyon to say that the very chyrche was a secrete chyrche vn- knowen, wherof some of them selfe myghte at the leste wyse be some parte. And thys do all you your own selfe so fully afferme, that neuer heretykes affermed it more styffely. Go to therfore wolde saynte Gregory saye to some offycer there present, and telle these felowes wyth a stycke, and let vs haue the nomber and the names. Now whan thys offycer hadde comen wyth hys stycke and patted them vppon the pates, and the cryour wyth hym/ and as he hyt them, reherse them thus: frere Luther one, Cate hys nonne twayne, Tyndale thre, frere Barons foure: when here were all, than wolde saynt Gregory haue sayed/ what here be but foure of you, and here be your names rehersed and your persons present and you be all knowen, and your false fayth and abomynable bestely sectes by youre owne bestely professyon, all to gyther knowen, and therfore you can not be the chyrche of trewe good men vnknowen. For though an ipocryte maye be vnknowen for naught, yet he that by his open euyll and abomynable dedys doynge, and open professyon of false abomynable heresyes sheweth hym selfe naughte, can not be for that tyme secretely a good man. And so be you whan ye haue all babled, well and iustely condempned by the whole catholyke chyrche/ whyche is also well knowen, and whyche by your owne reasons, and by Barns expresse wordes, is here well proued to be the chyrche that can not erre/ and therfore it is well proued that all you do playnely and dampnably erre. And ferthermore, syth they were than proued to be not the very chyrche after theyr owne doctryne, bycause they were than made open/ syth of trouth they beyng open or secrete, is not the thynge that maketh it the trew chyrche, nor is the substaunce of the mater but an accydent therunto/ it appereth playne that they whyche by beynge made open, be proued after theyr doctryne not to be the trewe chyrche, were alwaye a false chyrche before the open. But now suppose me farther that forth wyth after this/ some man wolde amonge theym say vnto saynt Gregorye and to that whole assemble, that they were comen thyther to gether from all partes of the worlde, wyth theyr meruaylouse labour and theyr importable payne/ and that nowe [AAi] theyr thre days vitayle that they brought from home is more then halfe spent, & shall be great diffyculty for Some of them that dwell farthest of, to gete home agayne wyth the remanaunt. And that therfore yf yt myghte so be thought good to the whole counsayle, whyle they were all the whole flok of all crysten people to gether vppon that fayre playne, yt were well done to take an order and make a lawe amonge them there, that for any nede that sholde at any tyme after happen, there sholde neuer more all tlle whole people be called agayne to gether/ but oute of euery parte some conuenyent number conuenyently called to gether. And that such an assemble so gadered to gether, shold represent ys whole peple, and sholde haue the selfe same authoryte full and whole, in all lawes after to be made, and all doutes of scrypture or questyons of the catholyque fayth to be declared, that the very whole crysten people sholde haue yf they were all present there man, woman, and chylde / syth it were very lykely that the necessyte of a generall counsayle sholde often happen/ and not well possyble that all the whole people beyng so mayne a multytude & dwellynge so farre a sonder, shold so often though yt happed so this onys, from all partes of the world come whole alway to gether to the generall counsayle/ and syth yt were not to be douted, but that Chryste whyche promysed and performed the sendynge of his owne holy spyryte vnto his chyrche, to teache yt and lede yt into euery trouth, and that he wolde neuer leue them comfortelesse, nor lyke chyldren faderlesse, but wolde hym seffe be wyth yt all the dayes vnto the ende of the worlde, so farre forth that where so euer were so mych as two or thre of that chyrche not scatered out therof as saynte Cypryane sayeth, but beynge in yt and of yt gathered to gether in his name, he was and wolde be hym selfe in the very myddes among them, wolde not fayle to assyste them wyth his holy spyryt when they were as- sembled so many in suche maner, where as eyther theyr dede and declaracyon muste nedes stande and be ferme, or ellys all runne at rouers and nothyng be certayn or sure: I doute nothynge but that yf this had be thus proponed, yt wolde haue ben there in that full counsayle agreed and ordered and decreed, that the generall counsayles shold be after, not of the whole nomber of all crysten people, but of some suche conuenyent nomber as conuenyently myghte assemble / and the same though yt were not the whole catho[AAiv]lyke chyrch in dede, but as frere Barns saith only repre- sentatyue, sholde yet haue the same authoryte and the same full credence geuen vnto yt, as though there were at yt all the whole crysten people. And thus ye se now that both in Luthers heresyes & Tyndales to & Barns also, touchyng the weddyng of freres & nonnes, and the autho- ryte of generall counsaylys, and the profe of the knowen catholyke chyrche, and the reprofe of theyr catholyke chyrch vnknowen / I haue euyn wyth this one example of all the whole chrysten people assembled at a generall counsayle, playnely confuted them all. But now yf frere Barns wyl here say, that wyth all this ymagyna- cyon of suche an whole assemble at a generall counsayle I can nothyng proue, bycause yt is but an imagynacyon that neuer coulde come to passe: I answere hym that yf he so say, he shall speke very vnlernedly. For be the thynge neuer so false and impossyble to/ yet may it be putte and admytted, to consyder therby what wold folow or not folow. theruppon, yf yt were both possyble and trew/ or els made that great wyse and well lerned man Boetius a very symple and an vnwyse argument, what time to proue that the fredome of mannes wyll is nothing restrayned, nor the fynall effecte of thynges here contingent or happenyng, any thynge precysely bounden to ye tone parte or to the tother by the prescyence and forsyght of god, he dyd put the case that god hadde not of any suche thynge to come any forsyght at all. And then dyd theruppon argue thus in effecte, that all were it so ys god dyd not foresee whether such a man shold in such a moment or vndyuisyble tyme, syt or not syt/ yet shold that man in that moment do but the tone of those twayne, whyther of the twayne hym selfe then wolde, and shold not in that on vndyuysyble do the both twayn both syt & not syt, wherof the tone were contradyctory & playne repugnaunt to the tother. And that therby may euery man playnly perceyue, at the prescyence of god putteth no necessyte in thynges of theyr nature conuenyent vnto fre wyll of man. Who so consyder well this argument of his and many suche other lyke made by many ryght excellent wys eyther esteme them all for folys/ or ellys confesse that vppon frere Barons reason, grounded vppon the dyfference betwene the whole catholyke chyrch in dede, [AAi] and the generall counsayle that is not the whole chyrche but by way of representacyon, I may well and orderly put the case, and suppose that the whole people were at the generall counsayle. And then in case yt so were/ yf then my purpose wolde folowe/ and frere Barons purpose fayle as ye se playnely yt Wolde: then is my parte as well proued, and his as well confuted, as yf the matter were not onely for argument supposed, but were so comen to passe & so done in very dede. And so this ensample of myne may for all the impossybilyte therof, be a good grounde of profe agaynst all these felowes in theyr false and faynt framed maters, concernynge the mayntenaunce of theyr false heresyes, agaynste all the knowen catholyke chyrche, by theyr owne ymagynacyon of a secrete scatered vnknowen chyrche, and yet eche of them a dyuerse chyrche not one agreynge wyth a nother. Now hath frere Barons therfore none other shyft that I can se, but to say that in that generall counsayle whyche I haue put and supposed in saynt Gregoryes dayes, the heresyes that I haue spoken of, of Luther, Tyndale, & hym selfe, wolde not haue ben condemp- ned, but rather approued and allowed for good thynges and trew/ nor that generall counsayle then beynge suche as I haue put, wolde neuer haue ordeyned that there sholde be any generall counsayle after of any fewer then all the whole chrysten people/ or yf there sholde, yet wolde they not haue determyned that euer any suche generall counsayle gathered of any fewer then all to gether, shold haue the same authoryte or credence that yt sholde haue yf the counsayle were assembled of all. If frere Barons or any of all his felowes be so bold as to tell vs this./ then may they boldely bere vs in hand what so euer they wyll in this worlde. For this maye euery man well wyt, that they wold determine when they were comen to gether, as they all knew to be good and trew whyle they were a sundre. But then are we very sure, wherof I thynke neyther Barns, nor Tyndale nor Luther neyther, can for sham say the contrary/ but ys vntyll wythin this twenty yere passed laste, all the worlde good and badde, crysten and hethen, wold haue had in abomynacyon that any man vowynge chastyte sholde haue wedded a nunne when he lyste, & vpon his owne sensuall frantyque fantesy, breke his promyse made vnto god. And therfore I dare be bold/ and as I truste with the consent and agrement of euery good man[AAiv]nys conscyence, to afferme in this mater a great deale farther agaynste them then I sayde byfore. For I dare well saye, not onely that they shold haue ben condemned by that one generall counsayle that I haue put, as gethered in some one yere of saynt Gregoryes papacy/ but also yf there had bene the lyke gadered in euery yere of his tyme, and in euery yere synnes his tyme tyll wythin this twenty yere last passed, and in euery yere before vnto the very apostles tyme, and euery yere in theyr tyme to, and in euery yere synnes Cryst was borne, and euery yere synne the world was fyrst replenyshed well wyth peple/ that same shamefull sensuall bestely secte wolde haue ben condemned for abomynable. And also that the dew assemble of certayne partes representynge the whole body, sholde haue the full authoryte of the whole body/ is a thynge by the comen assent and experyence of the whole worlde crysten and hethen so fully seen and perceyued, that no man can doute but that it wold haue be so there determyned, for the power and authoryte of euery generall counsayle of crystendome lawfully called and assembled to gether, ys though they were not as they could not well be after crystendome so greatly encreased the congregacyon of all the whole crysten people, yet sholde theyr determinacyon and decre be of lyke strength and power as yf they hadde ben all assembled there to gether on a grene. And well ye wote that in the fyrste counsa le that the a ostles kepte at Hierusalem, they called not all the whole congregacyon of crysten peple to yt, and yet all crysten people obayed yt. And where frere Barons sayth that the generall counsayles be but embassyatours & therfore can not do so mych as ys prynces may them self that send them/ I say that prynces geue theyr embassia- tours full authoryte in suche thynges as they sende them for to do, as myche as they myghte them self, yf they were there present in theyr owne persons/ for elles yf they sent them very farre for maters that requyred spede, they myght as well kepe them at home. And where he sayth that men must examine the generall coun- sayles by the scrypture, to se whyther they do well or wronge: I say that the counsayle in the makynge so muste do, and so do in dede, and that the spyryte of god guydeth them therin & ledeth them lnto all necessary trouth of fayth. And that when they haue done: theyr determinacyon is not [BBi] than to be examined by frere Barns, or suche other as lyste to mysse constre the scrypture to the contrary to defend theyr false heresyes. Now shall I ferther saye, that what so euer all chrysten people wolde determyne yf they came to one assembly togyther/ loke what strength it sholde haue yf they so dyd, the same strength hath it yf they be all of ys same mynde, though they make no decre therof, nor come not togyther therfore. For whan all chrysten people be by the same spyryte of god brought into a full agreement and consent, that the vowe of chastyte may not be by hys pleasure that made it broken and set at nought, but that who so doth breke it commytteth an horryble synne/ and that who so holdeth the contrary of thys is an heretyke: than is that bylyefe as sure a trouth as though they had all the whole company comen to a counsayle to gyther to determyne it. And whan thys is a trewth onys so reueled by god for a perpetuall necessary treuth, and the contrary therof for a peryllouse perpetuall falsshed, and the textys of holy scrypture touchynge that poynte by the holy men so taken and taught, and thorow chrystendome with all men so byleued/ than what tyme so euer two or thre begyn vpon theyr own heddys to vary from all the remanaunt, and agaynste all the remanaunt do styffely holde the contrary, they holde a playne false heresye, and afier that as many as fall to theyr opynyon and take theyr parte, be in the lyke perell and in lyke dampnable heresy, waxe theyr nomber neuer so great. For euer shall they leue the treW knowen chyrche byhynde/ whyche wax it neuer so small a flocke shall yet neuer fayle / but contynue, and as it styll contynueth and alwaye contynue shall in the olde approued trouth, so is it alwaye styll, and alwaye styll shall be the very trewe chyrche of Cryste/ and where so euer the same knowen chyrch remayne euery person in euery other parte of the worlde that is chrystened or longeth to be chrystened & consenteth with that chyrche in fayth is a member of the same / and thys is what so euer Barns bable the very trewe chyrch, wyth whych the spyryt of god is assystent and wyll not suffer it to fall in to dampnable errour. And that it so is haue I all redy proued in mo places than one, both of thys wurke and myne other, & by mo places than one of open playne scrypture to. [BBiv] And thus ye se playnely that frere Barons hath vtterly fayled of prouynge hys owne secrete chyrche/ and therfore he goth about as Tyndale doth/ to dysproue the catholyke knowen chyrclie to. But of so many meanys as I haue proued it by/ he dyssymuleth all the remanaunt, and bryngeth forth onely this one <2dic ecclesiae/>2 by which our sauyour commaundeth that who so fynde hym selfe offended, except the party by whom he is offended wyll amende by hys owne secrete monicyon or ellys at hys aduertysement gyuen hym before wytnesses one or two, he shall complayne vppon hym to the chyrche, and the chyrche shall order hym/ & than yf he wyll not obaye the chyrche, he shall be taken as a publycane or a very paynym. Thys place frere Barns bryngeth forth and soyleth in thys fasshyon. Barons. But now wyll there be obiected that our mayster Chryste com- maundeth yf my brother offende me that I sholde complayne to the chyrche, now is this chyrche that I haue sette out spyrytuall, and no man knoweth her but god onely/ she is also scatered thorowout the world / wherfore how can a man complayn to that chyrche? I answere our mayster Cryste doth playnely speke of a man that hath wronge the whyche must nedes be a partyculare and a certayne man. And therfore lyke wyse he byddeth hym complayne not to the vniuersall chyrch but to the partyculare chirch, now this particular chirch yf she be of god and a trew member of the vniuersal chirch she wyll iuge ryghteousely after Christes word & after the probacions brought afore her / neuertheles oftentymes cometh it that this partycular chyrche doth fully and holy erre and iudgeth vnryght and excommunicateth hym that is blessed of god, as it is open in your owne lawe whose wordes be these. Oftentymes he that is caste out is within, and he that is without is kepte within &c. Here haue ye playnely that the partycular chyrche maye erre / wherfore that chyrche that can not erre is alonely the vnyuersall chyrche whiche is called the communion and the felowshyppe of sayntes, the whyche addycyon was made by holy fathers (for in saynt Cypryans tyme was there no mencyon of it) by all lykelyhed to declare the presumpcyon of certayne men and of certayne congregacyons that rekened them selfe to be the holy chyrche. More. Here sayth frere Barns.iiii. thynges in thys answere. The fyrst is that Cryst doth there playnely speke of a man that hath wronge. The seconde that bycause he that hath wronge muste nedes be a pertycular and a certayne man, therfore god byddeth hym in lyke wyse go complayne not to the vnyuersall chyrche but to the party- culare chyrche. [BBi] The thyrde is that thys partycular chyrch yf she be of god and a trewe member of the vnyuersall chyrch, than she wyll iudge ryghtuousely after Christes worde, and after the proba- cyons brought afore her. The fourth is that thys partycular chyrche doth somtyme whole erre. Now as touchynge the fyrste poynt/ frere Barons here sayth that Cryst spake there of hym that hath wrong done to hym sylfe, as thoughe Cryste ment of no mo, but wolde onely sende hym that had wronge to complayne to the chyrche for his recompense. But me thynketh surely that yf Barons take it thus, he taketh it wronge. For I say ys though Cryste doth not so forbyd the man that is wronged to complayne, that it were alwaye dedely synne for hym to com- playne: yet he rather counsayleth hym to bere that wrong and pacyentely suffer it than to complayne vppon hys brother for it. And therfore I say that Cryst here playnely speketh of euery man that secretely fyndeth hys brother, that is to wytte any other man in any dedely poynt of false bylyefe or synfull lyuyng, though the party that fyndeth hym therwyth haue neyther harme therby in body nor goodes nor good name/ ye & though he myghte by the man whome he so fyndeth in suche a faute haue great aduauntage tem- porall, to do no more but wynke therat and fynde no faute therin. Thys man I say, yf he be good, is for all that offended by hym that suche euyll dothe or sayth/ in that for the vnyte of cheryte bytwene all chrysten brothern he can not but be greued wyth hys chrysten brothers euyll. For as saynt Poule sayth, If one member taketh hurte all the members be greued therwyth. And therfore in euery suche case dothe Cryste there sende hym that wythoute any worldely wronge done to hym selfe is in suche wyse offended by the faute and synne that he seeth in hys neyghbour/ hym I say sendeth Cryst vnto the chyrche to complayne, and not hym specyally from whom hys neyghbour hath any thynge taken, whyche thynge well appereth by the wordes of Cryste where he sayeth If he here the, than haste thou wonne agayne thy brother, he sayeth not, than haste thou gotten agayne thy good. Now frere Barns in one of the artycles whyche was layed agaynste hym at hys abiuracyon, had preched suche wordes, that the thynge whyche he sayeth here that Cryste playnely ment/ he semeth there to take for dedely synne not [BBiv] in hym onely that seweth whan he is wronged/ but ouer that in the lawyers that were of hys coun- sayle, and the iudges to, and in the makers of the lawes also. For there as hym selfe reherseth hys artycle, these were hys wordes, <2Alt>2 <2these lawes, and all these lawyers, and all these iusticiarys that say a man>2 <2May lawfully aske hys owne good afore a iudge, and contende in iudgement>2 <2haue destroyed all pacyence, deuocyon, andfayth in chrysten people.>2 Surely yf Barns wordes were trewe than do all these folke an hygh dedely synne, and such a synne as there can of none other come any more hurte I trow. But I am sure hys artycle as wyll neuer be defended wyth all that euer he bryngeth for it, nor all ys euer he maye brynge forth bysyde. But lettyng the remanaunt passe tyll some other tyme/ hym selfe there reherseth amonge other thynges that mayster doctour wulman layed agaynst hym these ,o wordes that we be in hand wyth here. If thy brother offende the, complayne vnto the chyrche. And therto sayth Barns, <2I answere that>2 <2this place made notfor sewynge at the law alledgyng saynt Austayne for me,>2 <2for it speketh of the crymes that sholde be reproued by the congregacyon and not>2 <2of the correccyon of the temporall sworde. For itfoloweth yf he here not the>2 <2chyrche take hym as an hethen or a publycane. This is the vttermost payne>2 <2that our mayster Cryste assygneth there, the whyche is no payne ofthe temporall>2 <2law.>2 Now good reders consyder well that answere that hym selfe sayth he there made vnto mayster wulman concernyng those wordes of the gospell, If thy brother offende the complayne vnto the chyrche/ and than consyder therwyth thys exposycyon of hys, with whych he wold glose the same wordes here to auoyde that the very catholyke chyrche shollde be no vnknowen chyrche. Fyrst it is not vnknowen that frere Barons hath in mo places than one declared hys opynyoii playnely by whyche he wolde that the chyrche as he meneth here whyle he maketh a dystinccyon bytwene it and the temporall court, shold haue no iurysdyccyon at all. And now he is content that they must haue a court for the reprouynge of certayne crymys, excepte he be so madde as to mene here that tlle partye wronged shold no thyng ellys but make some wonderyng vpon hys aduersary in the market place without any court or iudge. Now in this hys exposycyon here/ he restrayneth it onely to the complaynt of hym that is wronged/ and so wyll that [BBi] no man shall any thynge complayne vnto the chyrche, but onely of his owri wronges done vnto hym selfe/ where as the order of charyte wolde rather, that a man shall neglecte his owne wronges in the complaynte wherof may be suspycyon of angre or auaryce/ and complayne to the chyrche vppon other mennis wronges, wherunto he were lykely to be moued onely of charyte. Also what crymes be there wherewyth a man maye be wronged, that the chyrche of god doth not reproue? More ouer yf Cryste here speke specyally of hym that is wronged, and specyally byddeth hym go complayne to the chyrche / he semeth to sende hym for the redresse and recompence of his wronges. And therfore when all his whole tale of his exposycyon here, and his answere there is set to gether yt amounteth vnto no more, but that who so euer is wronged by a nother he may lawfully complayne to the spyrituall court, but not to the temporall courte/ and why so now? mary sayth Barons bycause that in the spyrytuall courte the partye that offendeth, shall but haue his cryme reproued/ but in the temporall courte, he shale fall vnder the temporall sword. Frere Barons meaneth not here I trow, that vppon euery complaynt made and proued in the temporal court, the party that hath wronged his neyghbour, shall haue his hedde stryken of Nowe the reprouynge that the chyrche reproueth yf the party that haue done the wronge, when he is reproued therof, sette not therby, is ye wote well in conclusyon to be excommunycate out of the chrysten company, and taken aS a noughty wreche and a very paynym, whyche payne is amonge good crysten people more daungerouse and ferefull, then to be compelled to make the party greued a ryghte great amendes/ namely syth oure lorde sayth forthwyth theruppon, that the sentence of the chyrche in erth shalbe confermed in heuen. And therfore what so euer Barons say/ yf any man sew a nother vppon any gredy couetyce of worldely goodes, though yt be the getynge agayne of his owne / or of any anger, or other corrupt effeccyon, whether he sew in spyrituall courte or temporall/ in his owne mater, or any mannys elles, he dothe offende god and synne more or lesse after the qualytes and cyrcumstaunces of his owne mynde/ and of the tyme, and the place, and the mater. And who so euer on [BBiv] the tother syde complayn and sew of good mynde and effeccion for the amendement of his neyghbour, thateyther hath offended and wronged hym selfe, or a nother, or onely done harme to hvm selfe, who so as I say of good effeccyon complayn and sew for his amendement in any courte of chrysten people, be yt spyrytuall or be yt temporall, competent for the mater accordyng to the lawes and lawfull vsages of the countrey where he complayneth/ offendeth not god therin, no not though he conse- quently recouer his owne good agayne by the mene or his recompence for his wrong & harme, so that there be none euyll cyrcum- staunces therin, that engender occasyon of slaunder / as was in sewynge openly among infydeles and specyally byfore paynym iudges, whyche thynge saynt Poule specyally therfore reproued. And therfore frere Barns in his answere made to mayster wulman auoydyng this place of the gospell with such a distynccyon betwene the temporall court and the spyrytuall court, made a very sleuelesse answere. And the scoffe wyth the prouerbe of Apelles, <2Ne sutor vltra crepidam,>2 hadde no very proper place/ as though mayster doctour wulman beyng doctour of the law, myght no more medle in that mater and questyon of sewyng at the law, then a cordener might in makyng of a hose. Was yt not well resembled? And where he writeth of mayster wulman these wordes: It is not yet an hundred yere a go, synnes that same mayster doctour was butler in the same house, whereof I was mayster and pryour: when one of late tolde mayster wolman of those wordes, he sayd yf yt so were as Barns wrote, yet had there ben with in ys same hundred yere as great chaunges as that, & not fully so good in that same mayster doctour Barns as in ys same mayster doctour wulman. For yt was he sayde somwhat a better chaunge to se a butler chaunged into a doctour, then a pryour into an apostata and a doctour into an heretyke. But now to our purpose, yf frere Barns restrayne those wordes of Cryste: If thy brother offende the and wyll not amende neyther at thy secrete warnynge nor at thy warnynge wyth one or two wyt- nessys, then fynally complayn vnto the chyrche: yf he restrayne theym thus as he semeth here to do, to such folke onely as haue wronges done vnto them selfe: he doth expowne the place playn wronge, both for the causes afore remembred, and also for that it appereth by the texte that Cryste byddeth hym at the seconde [BBi] monycyon yf the fyrste auayle not, he shall take to hym one or two wytnesses/ meanynge therby that he sholde take no mo theri very necessite requyreth for the profe of the mater, yf the wylful- nesse of the party that offendeth do dreue the mater into the open courte. And than was by the law two competent wytnesses suffycyent for a profe and no fewer. Now when Cryste wolde he sholde take vnto hym as few as he myght, bycause he sholde not vtter his brothers faute vnto any one mo then very nede sholde requyre: yf Cryste hadde spoken those wordis vnto none other but onely hym that were wronged hym selfe, he wolde neuer haue sayde/ take vnto the one wytnesse or twayne, but take vnto the twayne alway at the leste. For ellys takyng to hym but one, there sholde haue lakked halfe the profe. For he that dyd the wronge/ wold not wytnesse agaynst hym selfe, and he ys toke the wrong, could not be taken a wytnes for hym self And so yf Cryst hadde ment no more then Barns sayth here he dyd/ Crystes counsayle hadde ben vnsuffycyent for the mater. For his prouysyon myght haue ben obserued & the mater yet reste vnre- proued. But of trouthe our sauyoure lyke as he spake and ment suffycyentely/ so his counsayle prouyded suffycyently. For when he bode hym take one witnesse or twayn, and yet ment that he shold take no mo then there neded: the man ys wolde obserue yt to the very poynt, yf the wronge were done properly to hym selfe, he sholde take twayne, lest his complaynt shold be frustrate for lacke of suffycyent profe. And yf the mater pertayned not properly to hym selfe/ he shulde take but one, bycause hym selfe myght in that case be the tother. And thus good reders as for the fyrste poynte of frere BaronS answere, concernynge the vnderstandynge of those wordes of Cryste:. If thy brother offende the &c. complayn to the chyrche: ye se that frere Barons hath not handeled yt very well. Let vs now to the seconde. The seconde poynt is ye wote well, that bycause he that hath wronge muste nedes be a partyculare and a certayne man/ therfore god byddeth hym in lyke wyse go and complayne not vnto the vnyuersall chyrche, but to the partyculare chyrche. By this yt appereth, that Barns meaneth ys he that is not wronged, is not sent to the partyculare chyrch. Let vs now suppose that a man wolde in a corner go teache a no[BBiv]ther man heresy, and labour to make hym byleue that neyther thefte nor aduoutry were any Synne at all/ and that a thyrde man herynge hym and secretly reprouyng hym, and therby fyndynge none amendement, nor by the wytnesses at ys second time beyng called therto, wold fayn folow ys counsayle of Criste, and therfore asketh Barns whyther he shall for his brothers amendement though hym self be notwronged, complayne to the chyrch or not: yt wyll be harde to say nay. Then to whyche chyrche wyll Barns bydde hym go? whyther to the partyculare chyrche or to the vnyuersale? If this man be a partyculare man as well as he that were wronged, and therfore muste complayne to a partyculare chyrche as well as he that were wronged: whereto dothe Barons saye that Cryste speketh playnely of hym that is wronged/ as though he spake of none other, nor as though there were no partyculare man but he that is wronged/ but that euery other man not wronged, were an vnyuersall man, and must therfore yf he haue any cause of complaynt, go complayne hym selfe to the vnyuersall chyrche that Barns descrybeth vs, and telleth vs that we can neuer know her nor any member of her. The thyrde poynt is very subtyll / and a thynge that yf frere Barons had not sayd yt, I wold neuer haue thought yt possyble/ that is that the partyculare chyrch, yf she be of god and a trew member of the vnyuersall chyrche that Barons assygneth, ys is to wyt of onely men pure & clene with out spot or wryncle of synne / she wyll iudge ryghtuousely after the worde of god, and after the probacyons broughte afore her, who wolde haue went that good men wold haue iudged well and trew men truely? The fourth poynt is, that thys partycular chyrch may all wholy erre. This is lo so lytle meruayle, and ouer that so lytle to the purpose, that I wyll graunte yt frere Barons frely, and a great dele more to. For I wyll graunte hym also the thynge that hym selfe sayeth nay to, and yet is yt trewe/ that is to wyt that so may the whole vnyuer- sall chyrch do to, in such wyse as the law meaneth by whyche Barons proueth that the partyculare chyrche may erre. And I speke here of hys owne vnyuersall chyrche of all holy vertuouse men, clene wythout spot or wryncle, if they were all sodaynly knowen by reuelacyon, and were as many of them as euer was at [CCi] any tyme peple good & bad both lyuynge to gyther in thys world, and all assembled to gyther, yet myght they in iudgement erre and be decey- ued all the meyny at onys, byleuing many fals recordys & many fals lykelyheddes, in a priuate mater agaynst a secrete & an vnproued treuth/ whych is ye errour ys the law meneth, which law frere Barns alledgeth. And therfore ye may se good reders where about Barns goth, whan he putteth you here a dyfference bytwene the partycular chyrche and the vniuersall chyrche, in that the tone maye erre and he tother can not/ and than bryngeth vs in those lawes for the profe, whych lawes do speke of that kynde of errour, in whyche kynde of errour they maye erre partycular and vniuersall bothe. Ye may playnely perceyue here ys Barns doth but tryfle in thys great erenest mater and goth about to blere the readers eye with errour happenyng in the examynacyon of an outwarde acte/ wherin is to hym that erreth no parell of soule/ where hym selfe knoweth well that the errour where vpon all this mater goth is dampnable errour in doctrine of thynges pertaynynge to the necessary poyntes of fayth, or vertuouse lyuynge. Now where Cryste dyd byd hym that was offended by his brother complayne to the chyrch, frere Barns sayth, that was a partyculare chyrche/ who wolde haue went that lo? yf Barns had not tolde vs so, we wolde haue went that Cryste had bode hym complayne to no partyculare chyrch/ but go seke ys vnyuersall chyrch whych he could not know though he found her/ or els tary tyl he could gete all ye knowen catholyke chyrch to ether vpon a grene. But I aske frere Barns whyther Cryste dyd there byd the man so offended complayne to an vnknowen partycular chyrch or to any other particular chyrch than vnto such a partycular chyrche as were a parte of the whole knowen catholyke chyrch? lette frere Barns answere this. Chryste neyther bode hym seke an vnknowen chyrche, nor an vnknowen parte of a chyrche, nor a knowen parte of an vnknowen chyrch/ but bode hym well and playnely go com- playne to the chyrch/ as a thyng that was ethe to perceyue wythout any sophysme or sotletye/ for euery man myghte well knowe that he myghte nother complayne to a chyrche vnknowen, nor to all the whole chyrche at onys. But bycause Chryst wold prouyde that all the hole chyrch shold haue one fayth and one trewth of doctryne in rulys of lyuynge & necessary vnderstandyng ofthe scrypture concer[CCiv]- nynge all such poyntes/ therfore our sauyour bode hym go to the chyrche/ wherof euery knowen part that he shold so complayne vnto/ he shold not fayle to fynd in ys necessary treuth of doctryne to agre with the hole vniuersall chyrche, both ys knowen chyrch of good & bad, & with the secrete unknowen chyrch of onely good men/ for in the tone be all the tother/ & therfore that chyrch that he shold go to, shold be able after the facte & the dede truely knowen, to iudge, reproue and redresse that wrong & that offence with which the com- playnaunt was wronged or offended. And yf one were of good zele offended with hym that dyd exhorte hym to heresye tellynge hym that it were trew fayth & doctryne ys fornycacyon, aduowtry, runnynge out of relygyon in apostacy, brekyng of vowys weddyng nonnys, & periury were no synne at all/ a nlan could not fayle in any partycular chyrch part of the knowen catholyke chyrche to haue all thys doctryne iuged & condempned for heresy. How be it yf he shold complayn to some of those knowen particular chyrches that are in some partes of Almayne sectes dysseuered & departed frome the knowen catholyke chyrch: there shold he haue some of these heresyes iudged for trew catholike faith. And therfore is it playn ys Cryst sendyng hym so planely to complayn to ye chyrche, & menyng no false chyrch but his owne trew chyrche / & than makyng no dowtes of the fynding therof entended to make his trewe pertycular chyrches, ys is to wyt ys partes of his trew catholyke chyrch well & openly knowen & perceyued, as well from all ye chyrches of here- tykes, as from all ys chyrches of paynyms. For Cryst wold not sende hym where he sholde be bygyled in doctryne to ys dampnacyon of his soule. And than yf Crystes partycular chyrches to which he sendeth the man to complayne that is offended by false doctryne be chyrches knowen/ than it foloweth that Crystes hole chyrche wherof all the knowen particular chyrches of Cryst be knowen partes, is & must nedes be a knowen chyrch to/ but yf Barns be so madde as to say that of an hole tre growing togyther all the pecys of it as it standeth maye be seen and knowen/ but the hole tre standeth it selfe inuy- syble for all that and can in no wyse be knowen. And thus good christen reders it is more than shame to se how Barns answereth those wordes of Cryste, whyche playnely proue the very chyrche of Cryste to be a knowen chyrche. In auoydynge wherof Barns tryfleth in suche [CCi] fasshyon so boldely and so carelesse/ that he semeth to reken all that euer shall rede it, no wyser almoste then euyn very wylde geese. For yf euer he thoughte that any man sholde rede it that shold haue any wytte at all in hys hed, the man wolde I wene haue bene full sore ashamed to handle thys mater of Chrystes owne holy wordes in suche a tryflynge maner as he doth. Yet sayth Barns that thys knowen catholyke chyrche can not be the very chyrch bycause it is not persecuted. For <2the very chyrch>2 (sayth Barns) <2inuenteth none other way to heuen but foloweth Chryste>2 <2onely>2 / <2in sufferynge oppressyons and persecucyons, blasphemynges, and all>2 <2other thynges that may be layed vnto hyr/ whyche as saynte Austayne sayth>2 <2she lerned of our mayster Cryste. Our holy mother the chyrche thorow out all>2 <2the worlde scateredfarre and longe, in her trew hedde Chryste Iesus taught/>2 <2hath lerned not to fere the contumelys of the crosse nor yet of deth, but more>2 <2and more ys she strengthed, not in resystynge but in sufferynge.>2 These wordes euery man seeth well touch not the clergye onely, and yet maketh Barns as he ment no mo but them/ but he meneth that hym selfe and hys holy felowes be the chyrch bycause they be runne awaye for fere of persecucyon. But saynt Austayne sayth not that the chyrche is strengthed in sufferynge of persecucyon for holdynge fals heresyes, for techynge that men be not bounden to faste the lente/ but maye eate flesshe on good frydaye/ and that the people be no more bounden to come to goddes seruyce on whyt- sondaye than vpon shroue tuysdaye/ on whyche daye though they be bounden to leue vndone some thinges that many men vse to do / yet are they not so specyally bounden to spende ys day in the dyuyne seruyse as they be the tother for afl Barns bablyng vpon his abiur- acyon. Nor the chyrche dyd not suffer persecucyon for techyng that frerys may wedde nones, and breke theyr vowys, & runne in apostasy, and set nought by periury, and rayle agaynst all orders of holy relygyouse lyuyng. For in all these thynges is saynte Austayne whom he bryngeth for hym very full and whole agaynste them. And as for persecucyon to be suffered by the catholyke chyrche, it suffyseth that men be of the mynde gladly to suffer whan necessyte of sufferaunce shall happen by paynyms & infydeles/ & not that they ceace to be Crystes chyrche, but yf they suffer heretykes aryse and remayne amonge them selfe, fyrste wyth false doctryne to contende and inquyete them / and after wyth rebelly robbe, spoyle, and kyll [CCiv] them. For saynt Poule sayth, Put away the euyll man from amonge your selfe. For saynt Austayne whom he bryngeth for hym dyd after good and longe delyberacyon playnely wryte in thys poynt agaynst hym, as apperetll expressely in many of hys pystles wryten bothe vnto the secular powers whom he exhorted agaynste heretykes to represse theym & amende them by force/ and also to dyuerse of those heretykes them selfe, wherin he declareth wherfore. And yet besyde all thys the chyrche doth in dede abyde & endure the shamefull contumelyes of these wreched heretykes/ nor is not ashamed of the contumelyes of the crosse / though these blasphemouse wreches rayle agaynst ye crosse & call it idolatrye to crepe and kysse the crosse/ and in some place forbere not to caste the very fylthy myre vppon the crosse. And yet ferther in some partes of Almayne thys knowen chyrche of Cryste hath many tymes suffered and yet suffereth no lytell per- secucyon and very martyrdome/ bothe in theyr goodes and landes and in theyr bodyes to. But yet sayth Barns that thys knowen chyrche can in no wyse be the very chyrche of Cryste/ bycause it persecuteth heretykes/ & for the profe therof he alledgeth the wordes of saynt Hylary wryten agaynst the Arryans, whyche are these. Barons. The chyrche doth threten wyth banyshementes and presonmentes, and she compelleth men to byleue her whyche was exiled and caste in preson, nowe hangeth she on the dygnyte of her felowshyppe the whyche was consecrated by the thretenynges of persecuters, she causeth prestes to flye that was encreaced by the chasyng away of prestes, she gloryeth that she is loued of the world the whyche coulde neuer be Chrystes excepte the worlde dyd hate her &c. How thynke you my lordes? do not you all these thynges that be layed to the Arryans charge/ your owne frendes, ye your owne con- scyence muste nedes accuse you of all these thynges and yet wyll you be called Chrystes children/ I laye nothynge to you but that holy doctours laye vnto you. More. Who so consyder well saynt Hylaryes wordes shall fynd therin the sorest thynge ys lyghtely could haue ben brought forth agaynst frere Barons. For in these wordes appereth that the catholyke chyrche dyd neuer persecute heretykes by any temporall payne or any secular power vntyll the heretykes began suche vyolence them selfe. For yet in saynte Hylaryes dayes the trewe catholyke chyrche dyd it not. [CCi] But the Arrianes that were heretikes as ye perceyue here by saynte Hillaries wordes/ when they hadde corrupted & goten into theyr secte great prynces, vsed theyr authoryte agaynst the catholikes in bannishementes and prysonament, and myche other cruell handelynge/ all whych the good catholyque people suffred & vsed none other defence/ sauyng the sworde of the word of god, and the censuris of the chirch whyche that holy clergy pronounced and declared agaynste Arrius and all his adherentes in that holy counsayl holden at Nece. But afterwarde when that secte was by the goodnes of god abated and the right fayth well and fully restored, and concorde, reste, and quyete, growen amonge chrysten people, and that yet agayne after that some heretikes beganne to rayse a new brabelynge / good prynces remembryng the great harme and vnrestefulnesse that had growne by such heretykes, as had brought vppe sectes and scysmes in the chyrch of Cryste byfore/ dyd of theyr own good myndes for the preseruacyon of the peace, prohybyte and forbyd those heresyes vpon certayne paynes and in lyke wyse commaunded the bokes of those heretyques to be burned. And all be it that some very good Ten & holy doctours wold haue ben very gladde to treate and vse hose heretyques so tenderly that they sholde haue hadde no bodely harme, in so myche that holy saint Austayne was fyrst of the same mynde hym selfe/ yet afterwarde consyderynge the mater better, he perceyued the contrary to be so mych better, and so mych harme growynge to good men & dyspleasure to god, yf yt so shold contynue, that he letted not in writyng to confesse his own ouersyght, and reuoke his fyrst opynyon, and was not onely contente that suche obstynate heretykes as to the trouble of good quyete people/ and dysturbynge of the catholyque fayth wyth the parell of many pore symple soules, wolde styrre suche scysmes and heresyes, sholde be by fere refrayned, & by force repressed, and by payne punyshed: but also requyred by his owne wrytyng the seculare powers ther to/ and he thought it a benefyt to the heretyques them selfs to be reduced from theyr errours into the ryght fayth/ rather for feare and payn here temporall, then to perseuere in theyr heresies & fall into ys fyre perpetuall. For many which by fere & force begynne a good thynge in trouble and aduersyte, fall after by grace encreased, into the loue of ys good[CCiv]nes whyche in theyr wanton welth they hated / for vexacyon geueth vnderstand- ynge/ and the begynnynge of wysedome is the feare of god: for whyche he bode his apostles fere hym, that myght not onely kyll ys bodye, but caste also the soule into hell. Saynte Austayne in this poynte de- clareth his mynde playnly concernynge the repressynge of heretyques by temporall punishement, both by his pystles adressed vnto such noble seculare men as he requyred therto / & also by his wrytynges wherin he playnely declareth vnto the heretyques them selfes, the causes wherfore yt is well done: whych saue for the length I wolde here set you in. But saynte Austayne was not in this mynde alone, but so was saynt Hierome and many other holy men also. And vnto the same haue by the spyryte of god, for the weale of crystendome, all crysten nacyons full and whole agreed / and haue ben by the importune malyce of heretyques raysynge rebellyons in dyuerse regyons dreuen of necessyte to set in sundry tymes, sorer and sorer punyshement therunto. And yet as ye se so strong is the deuyll in theyr obstynate hartes that scantely can all suffyse. But yet layeth Barns a nother reason, to proue that the very chyrche of Cryste can not be a knowen chyrche in no wyse. For he sayth that we byleue the very chyrch of Cryst by fayth, and yt is an artycle of oure fayth/ and therfore yt is no knowen chyrche, nor can be no knowen chyrche. But that yt muste nedes be a chyrche vnknowen of onely holy people, pure and clene wythout spotte or wryncle/ and that the very chyrche muste nedes be suche an holy company so pure and so clene without spot or wrincle: he proueth thus. Barns. Marke saynt Paules wordes. Crist hath geuen hym self for her, that he might make her gloryouse. So that the clennesse of thys holy chyrche is the mercy of god towarde her thorow Chryste, for whose sake he layeth nothynge to her charge. Ye and yf any other person wold, he is redy to geue her his clennesse, and to lette her by fayth clayme of ryght hys purenesse for her owne/ for betweyne theym all is comen as betweyne man and wyfe. So that yf the chyrche loke on her owne merytes of her own workes, she is full of synne, and muste nedes saye, Dimitte mihi debita, the whyche she neded not to saye yf she hadde none. But yf she referre her selfe vnto the merytes of her blessed husbande Cryste Iesus, and to the clennesse that she hath in his blood / then is she wythout spot. For by the reason that she stycketh by fayth so faste vnto her [CCi] husbande Chryste, and doth abyde in confessyon of her synne, and requyreth mercy for theym/ therfore is there nothynge layed to her charge, but all thynge ys forgeuen her. And therfore sayeth saynt Paule, there ys no dam- nacyon vnto them that be in Cryste Iesu. More. I haue good reders somwhat touched the wordes byfore. ye se that he sayth that this chyrche hath al way synne in her and so alway spottes and wryncles. But yet bycause she stykketh faste vnto her husbande Chryste in fayth, and abydeth in confessyon of her synne, and requyreth mercy for them/ therfore is there nothynge layed vnto her charge, but all that thynge is forgeuen her, & that therfore she hath neyther spot nor wryncle lefte in her. And proueth as ye se by saynte Paule sayenge, There is no dampnacyon vnto them that be in Cryste Iesu. I haue sayde vnto Barns byfore and yet I say agayn, ys though Crist hath as saynt Paule saith vnto the Ephesies, gyuen hym self for her, that he myght make her gloryouse: yet ment not saynt Poule that euery man for whom Criste hath geuen hym selfe to mak gloryouse, shall in dede be gloryouse: for some wyll frowardel refuse to be made gloryouse. And that company ys shalbe gloryouse, shall yet not be gloryouse here in this world/ but sllall be here in this world gracyouse, that they may in a nother worlde be gloryouse. And yet not at euery tyme gracyouse in this world neyther/ but some tyme fall frowardely or neglygently from grace, and so stande longe in suche vngracyouse state/ and yet thorow goddes callyng on th tourne agayne wyllyngly by grace vnto grace/ and so passe at the laste thorowe grace into glory. But he may be of Crystes chyrch here many yeres in erth, and happely neyther gracyouse nor gloryouse/ and yet he may knowledge his synyes and aske mercy, and byleue euery artycle of the ryght fayth, and trust to be saued to/ and yet by wylfull purpose of contynuynge in some horrible synnes, stand styll in a dampnable state. And as yt may be that some shall amende and be saued/ so may yt be that some wyll neuer amende, but shall therfore be fynally dampned. And yet though he was not one of Cristes electes / yet was he a member of his mystycall body, his catholyque chyrche here in erth, and may byleue in hym, and truste in hym, and knowledge his synne, and aske mercye, and for lacke of good purpose may mysse of mercy to. [CCiv] But Barons to make men wene that onely fayth were suffycyent for saluacyon, accordynge to his pestylent heresy, whych he dyd ones forswere/ and now forsweryng hym selfe, holdeth and defendeth agayne: telleth vs a gay tale of a gloryouse chyrch that hath all her synnes forgeuen her, by styckynge to her spouse by onely fayth, wyth knowledgynge her synnes and askynge mercy for them/ and that a man may be bolde yf he thus do, synne he neuer so fast, nor purpose he neuer so litle to amende. He layeth vs falsely forth saynt Poule, and telleth vs that saynt Poule sayth there is no damnacyon to them that be in Criste Iesu. But by holy saynt Paule and holy Chryste Iesu to, yt is good crysten reders a ryght heuy herynge, that euer suche a man as this is, shold be herde speke among cryste peple / when he so holyly bryngeth in the wordes of the blesse apostle, as though he ment to make men loue Cryst Iesu, and the malycyousely pulleth away the very wordis wherin all the weyght hangeth, to make men wene that to stycke to god by fayth alone wyth a false hope of saluacyon, for onely knowledgyng of theyr synne and askynge of mercye, were suffycyent to saue theyr soules so that so doyng, they could neuer be dampned though they dyd no more, howe so euer they purpose to perseuer in theyr synne besyde But saynte Poule to reproue Barons false doctryne, sayth not as he reherseth hym, that there is no damnacyon to them that are in Cryste Iesu/ but he sayth there is no damnacyon to them that are in Cryste Iesu, that walke not after the eshe / declarynge playnely that though they be in Cryste Iesu, after suche a maner of beynge in hym a Barons descrybeth vs, yet yf he walke after the fleshe he shall be damned. For saynt Poule sayth playnly yf ye lyue after the fleshe, ye shall dye. And after the fleshe may a man walke, & after the fleshe may he lyue, & yet do all that frere Barns here sayth in these wordes that the chyrche doth. For he speketh in all these holy wordes of his, nothynge of leuynge the synnefull wayes of the fleshe, or of any such purpose eyther/ but to make men wene that no suche thynge neded, but onely byleue, and trust, and knowledge our synne, and aske mercy, and byleue onely, and truste surely, & lyue styll as we lyste. For by faith alone we sticke to Crist, as Barns wold haue it seme. And then how synfull so euer we be/ yet be we wythout synne clene and pure/ for then Cristes pure[DDi]nesse is ours he sayth, as all thynges be commune he sayth among frendes/ and therfore no dampnacyon can there be to them that are in such wyse in Cryst Iesu, how so euer they lyue or what so euer they do. And thus may ye se good chrysten people how shamefully thys euyll chrysten man falsefyeth Saynt Poules wordes, to ys deceyte of vnlerned folke, and dampnacyon of good symple soulys. But now is it a worlde to se how he laboreth to cary the reder away from the perceyuynge therof. And yet hath god made Barns hym self so blynd, that ye more blynd he goth about to make the reder, the more he stumbleth vnware vppon the trouth, and taketh it vp & bryngeth it so forth, and also sheweth it to hys owne shame, the most folysshely that I neuer saw the lyke in all my lyfe. For lo these are his wordes forth wyth vppon the tother. Barns. And that thys may be the playner, I wyll brynge you saynt Austayns wordes, the whych was vexed of the Donatystes wyth this same reason that is layd agaynst me. His wordes be these. The whole chirch sayth forgyue vs our synnes/ wherfore she hath spottes and wryncles. But by knowledgynge, her spottes are weshed awaye. The chyrche abydeth in prayour, that she myghte be clensed by know- ledgynge of her synnes. As longe as we lyue here, so standeth it/ and when we shall departe out of this body, all such thynges be forgyuen to euery man. Wherfore by thys meane the chyrche of god is in the treasures of god withoute spotte and wryncles/ and therfore here do we not lyue without synne, but we shal passe from hence without synne. &c. More. Now good chrysten readers, here haue you herde frere Barns saye that he wolde reherse you saynt Austayns wordes, to thentent that he wold make you the mater the more playne for hys purpose. But of trouth he hath played in the rehersyng of theym, as he played in the rehersynge of saynte Poules wordes/ that is as ye haue herde, rehersed them falsely wyth pullyng the chyefe parte away, to make them seme the playner for hys purpose. And therfore to the entent that I may make hys false handelyng of saynt Austayn & his fals entent therin appere, as playnely vnto you as I haue all redy made appere vnto you, his lyke handelynge & hys lyke entent in handelynge of saynte Poule: I shall reherse you saint Austayns wordes a lytell more fully & truely than frere Barons hath done/ begynnynge where Barns begynneth, but not endyng where he endeth. For he endeth I wote nere where / but maketh two lynys of hys owne, and than endeth wyth &c. as though hys owne wordes were saint Austayns. But thus saith saint Austayn lo. [DDiv] The whole chyrche lo sayeth, Forgyue vs our synnes / ergo she hath spottes and wryncles: but by confessyon of them the wryncle is streched out, & by confessyon the spotte is wyshed out. The chyrch contynueth in prayour to be clensed thorow confessyon/ and as longe as we here lyue so she contynueth styll, and euery man when he departeth out of hys body, is forgeuen of hys synnys/ euery man I saye of suche maner of synnys as he than had that were venyall. For they be forgyuen also by dayly prayours / and he departeth hense clensed, and the chyrche is layd vp pure golde in to the treasures of our lorde. And by thys meane the chyrche is in the treasures of our lorde wythout spot and wryncle. And than yf the place where she is without spot or wryncle be there/ what thyng shall we pray for whyle we be here? That we may obtayne perdon of our synnys. What good doth the perdon? it taketh out ys spot, and he that forgiueth stretcheth out the wryncle. And where is our wryncle stretched out as it were in the presse or tenter hokes of a stronge fullar? vpon the crosse of Cryst. For euyn vpon the crosse, ys is to wytte vpon that streccher or tenter hokys, he shed out hys bloud for vs. And ye o faythfull people, knowe what wytnesse ye beare vnto the bloud whych ye haue receyued. For of a trueth ye saye Amen. Ye knowe what thynge the bloud is which was shed out for many in remission of synnys. Marke lo how the chyrche is made wythout spotte or wryncle. She is streched out in the strecher or tenter hokys of the crosse, as a chyrch well wesshed & clensed. Now here may euer thys thynge be in doynge. But our lorde doth exhybyte and present vnto hym selfe, a gloryouse chyrch with out spotte or wryncle there. He goth aboute thys thynge and is in doyng of it euyn here, but he exhybyteth her such there. For man sayth, let vs haue neyther spot nor wryncle. Great is he that goth about it/ and he goth aboute it well, and is the cunnyngest wurke man that can be. He strecheth vs out vpon the crosse, and maketh vs smoth wythout any wryncle, whom he had weshed & made clene without spotte. He ys came wythout spot & wrincle, was stretched out vpon the strecher or ys tenter hokys. But ys was for our sakes not for hym self, but to make vs wythout any spot or wryncle. Let vs therfore pray him to make vs such/ & wllen he hath so done, than to bryng vs to ys shoppys & there lay vs vp where shalbe no pressyng nor strecchyng. Now thou that spakest thus, art thou without spot or wrincle? what dost thou then [DDi] here in the chyrche, whyche sayth, Forgyue vs our synnys? She confesseth that she hath styll synnys to be forgyuen. They that con- fesse not the same, it foloweth not therfore that they haue no synnes. But bycause they confesse them not/ theyr synnys therfore shall not be forgyuen them. Confessyon healeth vs, and a well ware lyuyng, & an humble lyfe, and prayour also wyth fayth & contrycyon of hart, and vnfayned tearys flowyng out of the harte veyne, that the synriys wythout whych we can not be, maye be forgyuen vs. Confessyon I saye maketh vs hole, as the apostle Iohan sayth: yf we confesse our synnys, god is faythfull & iuste, and wyll perdon vs our synnys, and clense vs frome all wyckednesse. But now though I saye we can not here be wythout synne/ we may not commytte manslaughter or do adultery therfore, or such other dedely synnes as at one stroke sle the soule. For such deades doth not a chrysten man ys hath a good fayth & a good hope/ but those synnys onely whych are wyth ys pencell of dayly prayour ouerwyped. Now good chrysten readers ye shall fyrste vnderstande, ys where as frere Barns maketh as though saynt Austayn had spoken those Wordes agaynst the Donatystys, whych vexed (sayth he) saynt Austayne wyth the same reason that is now layd agaynst hym: he maketh vs two lyes at onys. For neyther dyd the Donatystes vexe saynt Austayn with that reason that is layed agaynst hym, nor saynt Austayne made not that sermon agaynst them. Fyrst as for them, they vexed saynt Austayn wyth this heresy, that they affermed ye very chyrche to be onely in Affryque/ and none to be of the very chyrch but yf he were of the secte of the Donatystes. And now ye wote well no man vexeth frere Barons wyth that heresye. For we saye that the chyrch is the whole nombre of all chrysten nacyons, not beynge by newe heresyes dyuyded from the olde stocke, in what places of the world so euer those people be, and be they neuer so many cuntreys, or be they neuer so few that remayne in the same knowen chyrche, that hath ben by a well knowen successyon preserued and contynued from Chrystes dayes vnto our own, and in the profession of the same fayth whyche is called the catholyke fayth, bycause it is the faith of the same whole catholyke chyrche. And therfore thys thynge wyth whyche frere Barons is vexed now is not the same wyth whych the Donatystes dyd vexe saynt Austayne. [DDiv] Now yf Barns wyll say, that though it be not the same/ it is yet lyke the same, bycause we assygne the chyrche to be in these onely cuntreys in whych it now remayneth/ what can we other saye than that for the tyme in whyche it strecheth no ferther, it is but in these cuntreys? But we deny not but yf there be dwellynge amonge Turkes or Sarasyns any chrysten, or men that longe to be chrysten, whych agre with the knowen chyrche of these chrysten contynued nacyons in fayth/ all those folke are of thys knowen chyrche also. And ouer that whan so euer the same contreys that are vn- chrystened nowe, shall here after as I truste onys they shall, bycome chrystened agayne, and be byleuers of the comon catholyke fayth, and so become membres of the comon knowen catholyke chyrch/ than say we that there shall the chyrche be to. But the Donatystes sayd and wold haue semed to proue it by the very scrypture to, that the chyrche sholde not remayne but iii Affryque. And therfore the Donatystes vexed not saynte Austayne wyth the same thynge wyth whyche we vexe frere Barns. Yet yf frere Barns wyll saye that it is lyke, in that that lyke as those heretykes were called Donatystes, so these heretykes call the catholyke chrysten people papystes: yet can it not be lyke for that. For saynt Austayn called the successoure of saynt Peter the chyefe hed in erth of the hole catholyke chyrche, as well as any man doth now. And also frere Barns can not alledge that poynt agaynste vs. For hym selfe ye wote well confesseth that the pope ls the vicare of Cryste here vppon erth. Fynally the questyon that is bytwene frere Barns and vs, is not the ame that was bytwene the Donatystes and saynt Austayn. For bytwene Barns and vs, the questyon is whyther the very chyrch be a knowen chyrch of chrysten people good and badde bothe, or an vnknowen chyrche of onely good holy vertuouse people, pure and clene wythout eyther spot or wryncle. And in thys poynt were both saynte Austayne and the Donatystys agreed, that the very chyrche was a chyrche knowen. And thus good reders ye may se that frere Barns sayth vntrewe in thys poynt, where he sayth that saynt Austayn was vexed by the Donatystes, wyth the selfe same reason that hym selfe is now vexed wyth vs. But thys he fayneth, [DDi] to make it seme that the knowen catholyque chyrch were now of the same opynyon that those here- tyques the Donatistes were then/ and that saynt Austayne were of the mynde that hym selfe is now, that the very catholyque chyrche were an vnknowen chyrch, of onely good folke pure and clene with out eyther spotte or wryncle of any maner synne. And he wolde make vs wene, that saynte Austayne therfore wrote those wordes agaynst ys Donatistes, to proue agaynst them that the very chyrche here in erth were an vnknowen chyrche of onely suche holy sayntes as were wythoute any synne. But now to proue you that frere Barns maketh vs a ly in that poynt/ ye shall vnderstande good reders, that saynt Austayne spake those wordes not agaynst the Donatistes, but agaynste other sectes of heretyques called the Pelagyanys and the Celestyans. And to proue you farther, that frere Barns maketh you therin not onely a lye, but also a very folyshe lye/ ye shall se hym conuycted in this poynte, by the very wordes of saynt Austayne hym selfe in the selfe same sermon. For in all that whole sermon is there not onely no worde spoken of Donatystes/ but that also he declareth hym selfe by playne and open wordes, to speke those wordes agaynst the pelagyans & the Celestyans, as I sayde byfore. For lo in the very wordes next byfore those, wyth whych frere Barns begynneth/ saynt Austayne sayth thus: <2Vbi es tu heretice Pelagiane uel Caelestiane,>2 where arte thou heretyque pelagyane or celestyane? And thus ye se clerely, that saynte Austayne wrote not those wordes agaynste the Donatistes as Barons belyeth hym/ but agaynst the Pelagyans and the celestians, as his owne expresse wordes do declare you. But now ye wyll peraduenture meruayle, for what entent frere Barons hath made this false folyshe chaunge, in whyche he may be so playnely reproued. Ye shall vnderstande good readers, that he dyd yt not for nought, but of a great wylynesse wyth a very lytle wyt. For ye shall vnderstande that those two sectes, betwene them broughte vppe and held the same heresye that Barons bryngeth forth now/ that ys to say that the chyrche in this world is a company of onely good folke, and so good that none of them haue either spot or wryncle of synne. Fyrste Pelagyans sayde, that euery man myght by his onely naturall strength make hym selfe [DDiv] suche one yf he wyll. And then Celestius added vnto yt, that there is no man a good man but he that so doth in dede/ and that the very chyrche hath none but onely suche good men in yt, whych muste nedes ye wote well be an vnknowen chyrche. And that theyr heresye was this / appereth playne both in the begynnyng of this sermon, and also in the ende of saynte Austaynes worke wryten to Quod vult deus. And therfore agaynste that heresy of theyres whyche heresy now frere Barns holdeth styffely for a very trewth/ doth saynte Austayne wryte those wordes, whych Barns hym selfe here bryngeth for hym selfe, labout, ynge to proue hys heresye trew by the authoryte of saynt Austayne, with the self same wordes by which saynt Austayne playnly proueth yt false. I can not in good fayth well deuyse whyther this pageaunt be played by frere Barns, more falsely or more folyshely. For where as those heretykes sayd, that the very chyrch hadde none in yt but such as were so clene and so pure that they neyther had spot nor wryncle/ saynt Austayne sayeth as ye haue herde, that not onely the meane sorte of the very chyrche, but also all the whole chyrch no nomber therof except, no not the very beste, prayeth in the Pater noster god, to forgeue theym theyr synnes. And therfore sayth he that those heretyques lye, that saye the whole very chyrche here in erthe hath none therof, but onely suche as haue neyther spot nor wryncle of synne. And then goeth saynt Austayne farther and sayth that suche as be in the chyrche, and therfore lyue not wythoute synne, gete for- geuenes by knoweledgynge of theyr synne, and askynge mercy, and by prayour, and with fayth and contry- cyon of hert, and vnfayned terys flowynge from the vayn of the herte, and wyth a ware lyuynge/ wyth all these ways he sayth that the synnes be forgeuen, to hym that vseth these ways to gete forgeuenes wyth. For then he sayeth that as god hath washed away our spottes wyth the water of baptysme/ so he stretcheth out our wryncles vppon his owne crosse. And yet he sayth for all this, that no man lyueth here so clene, but that as long as he lyueth here, he so spotteth hym selfe agayn, and so caccheth euer some wryncles, that he lyueth neuer wythout, nor longe can not, not for necessyte of our nature peraduenture, but thorow our wylfull fraylty and neglygence. And then sheweth he farther yet, that in [DDi] those synnes wythout whyche no man lyueth/ he meaneth not abomynable dedely synnes, as manslaughter, or aduoutry, or suche other horryble dedely synnes, as sle the soule at one stroke. For suche synnes crysten men, he sayth, that haue a good fayth and a good hope, wyll not coramytte. Wherby saynte Austayne teacheth vs agaynst the doctryne of those heretyques and these to, that a man may be a crysten man, and of the very same chyrclle to, whyche Cryste hath geuen hym self for to make her fayre & gloryouse/ and may haue also a trew fayth, that is to wyt a full bylyefe of euery necessarye trouth, and a full hope, that is to wytte, a great stronge trustc in Cryste to be saued by Criste / and yet not a good fayth able to make the man good, bycause yt is but Barns fayth, that is to witte onely fayth without well workynge charyte/ nor a good hope, bycause it is a presumptuouse hope, lokynge to be saued wyth dampnable deuelyshe leuynge. And for these causes may the member of the very chyrche here, when he dyeth in such mynde, for all his knowledgynge and askynge mercy to, go from Crystes very chyrche in erthe to the deuyls very chyrche in hell. For saynt Austayn sayth here as ye haue herd, that they whyche haue suche synnes as at the tyme of deth sholde be remytted/ that is to say that hath not then such as be at his dyenge dedely both for theyr owne nature and for lacke of trew repentaunce, wyth purpose of amendement & well vsyng of the sacramentes, shall be fully forgeuen/ that is to wyt yf he haue for attaynynge therof, vsed hym selfe suffycyently in suche wyse as saynt Austayne here declareth/ that ys to say in confessyon & knowledgyng of his synnes, wyth contrycyon and prayour, with good fayth, and good hope, and a ware lyuynge, vsynge dylygence to wythstande synne/ then he shall be sayth saynt Austayne forgyuen. And when he is so at his deth fully forgeuen/ then shall he be layed vp for pure golde in the treasurs of god. But saynt Austayne meaneth not, that euery man that is of the very chyrche, nor that euery man that dyeth out of dedely synne, and knowledgeth his synne when he dyeth, & asketh mercy, shall be forthwyth so fully forgeuen, that he shall go hense so clene and so pure wythout spotte or wryncle, that he shall be by and by layed vppe for pure golde in the treasours of god/ but yf he long byfore with such other cyrcumstaunces as I haue byfore of saynt Austaynes own [DDiv] wordes rehersed you, well and dewly ben accustumed long tyme to pray byfore, that god wolde make hym wythoute spot or wryncle, by weshynge his spottes wyth the blessed sacramentes, and stretchynge out his wryncles wyth the stretchynge them vppon the stretcher or tenter hokes of the crosse. And then when god hath in suche wyse washed oute his spottes/ and in suche wyse washed out his wryncles at the very laste ende, after whyche he can neyther gether spot nor wryncle more/ that then yt may please god to brynge hym into the shoppes, and there lay hym where shall neuer be pressynge nor stretchynge more. But yf he by long tyme byfore his deth pray duely thus/ ellys shall he not at hys deth be by and by layed vppe for pure gold in goddes treasours, as frere Barons maketh yt here seme, by mysse rehersyng of saint Austayns wordes/ but he shal fyrst be well purged / and all the spottes & wryncles that then remayn, shall be clene burned oute by the hote fyre of purgatorye/ or by other mennes prayours and almoise dede, and other suffrages of the chyrche done for hym, be depured and clensed byfore that he shall be layed vppe for pure golde in the treasours of god. And that saynt Austayne meaneth here none otherwyse then I do declare hym: ye may well perceyue yf ye well aduyse his wordes whych I haue truely translated. And yet by cause ye shall the lesse doute therof/ saint Austayn shall him self declare ys I truely declare you this place, by his own very playn wordes in a nother place. For in ye.xxxii. sermon of the wordes of ye apostle, lo thus he sayth. No man ought to doute, but that wyth prayours of the chyrch and wyth the holsome sacryfyce, and wyth almoyse that is geuen for the soules of them that are departed, they are holpen to be more mercyfully delt wyth of our lorde, then theyr synnes haue deserued. For this thynge by the tradycyon of the olde fathers, the whole catholyque chyrche obserueth / that ys to wyt, that what tyme they that deceaced in the communyon and blood of Cryste, at the tyme of the sacryfyce in theyre place and order, remembraunce made of them, prayour shold be made for them/ and not that onely, but also that specyall rehersall shold then be made, that the same sacryfyce is offerd vp for them to. Now when workes of mercy are done in commendacyon and fauoure of theym/ who can doute, but that they are holpen therwyth, syth prayour made for [EEi] them vnto god is not frutelesse? It is not in any wyse to be dowted, but that these thynges succour & releue them that are deceaced. How be it onely suche men I saye as haue so lyued before theyr deth, that these thynges maye do theym good after theyr deth. For in relyefe of them that be departed out of the body wythout fayth workynge wyth cheryte, and wythout the sacramentes of the same/ suche deades of deuocyon are in vayne vsed, the pledge or erneste peny of whyche deuocyon they lacked whyle they lyued here, ether bycause they wold not receyue the grace of god, or bycause they receyued it in vayne, treasurynge and layenge vp for them selues not mercy but wrath. Wherfore when any good worke is done for them that are deceaced by theyr louers and frendes, they meryte not of newe/ but these thynges are gyuen in rewarde, as thynges consequent and well folowynge vppon theyr merytes whyche they deserued before whyle they lyued. For it is not sayd that these thynges shold helpe them onely whyle they here lyue, and not when they are deade. And therfore euery man when he endeth thys lyfe, can no thynge receyue, but that onely whyche he hath deserued beynge here a lyue. And in another place he sayth thus. What thyng so euer of venyall synnys is not redemed of vs / lt must be purged wyth that fyre, of whyche the apostle sayth, that the worke shall appere by the fyre/ and yf any mannes wurke burne, he shall suffer the losse. For eyther whyle we lyue in thys worlde, we labour our selfe wyth penaunce/ or ellys truely bycause god so wyll or suffereth it, we are punysshed wyth many trybulacyons for these synnys. And then yf we gyue thankes vnto god, we be delyuered. Whyche thynge is a thys wyse/ yf oure husbande, or oure wyfe, or oure sonne dye, or yf our substaunce whyche we loue more then we shold do, be taken from vs. For though we loue Chryste aboue that substaunce, so that yf nede were, we wolde rather lese that substaunce than denye Chryste: yet bycause as I haue afore sayd, yf we loue that sub- staunce more than we shold, and can not whyle we lyue or when we dye lese it wythout greate sorowe, and yet for all that yf when we lese it, we gyue thankes as good chyldren vnto god, whych as a mercyfull father suffereth our substaunce to be taken from vs/ & yf [EEiv] we wyth very humylyte confesse that we suffer lesse punyshment than we haue deserued: the synnys be in suche wyse purged in thys worlde, that in the worlde to come the fyre of purgatory can fynde eyther no thynge or ryght lytell to burne. But then yf we neyther thanke god in our trybulacyon, nor bye out our synnys with good workes/ we shal so longe abyde in that fyre of purgatory, tyll the venyall synnys aboue named be consumed vp as wode, hey, and stubblys. But some man wyll saye, I force not how longe I there abyde, so that I maye at the last go to the euerlastyng lyfe. Let no man say thus my moste welbeloued bretherne / for the fyre of purgatory is more sharpe then any payne ys in thys worlde can be sene, or thought or felt. &c. Lo good chrysten reders ye maye clerely se by saynt Austayns wordes here, that he mente not to deny purgatory there / but affermeth it playnely, syth he sayeth there is no dowt but that prayour and almoyse dede, and the oblacyon of that holy sacryfyce offred for them in the masse, maketh the soulys that are departed to be the more mercyfully delt wythall, and theyr paynes to be releued. In whyche fewe wordes, saynt Austayn wytnesseth agaynst mo of theyr heresyes than one. For he not onely affermeth purgatory agaynst yong father Fryth, and affermeth also that almoyse dede and prayour maye releue the soulys therin/ but ouer that he techeth vs agaynst all these newe sectes, that good wurkes be mery- toryouse, not onely for hym selfe that doth them, but also to other folke. And yet ouer that he techeth vs, that we maye here meryte & deserue in thys lyfe ys other folkes good dedes may meryte for vs and serue vs whan we be dede. It folowetli also ys syth we maye praye for the soules that haue nede, they maye also praye for vs whyche haue yet more nede than they/ not for our present peyne temporall, but for auoydynge of perpetuall syth saynt amys sayth, <2Orate pro inuicem vt saluemini.>2 Saynte Austayne affermeth here also, that the blessed body and bloude of Cryste in the masse, is a sacryfyce and an oblacyon to god agaynst Luther & all hys adherentes. Fynally he techeth vs here, that the tradycyon of the fathers, and the comune obseruaunce and custume of the catholyke chyrche, is for the certyfycacyon of a trouth a sure vndowted authoryte. Now good chrysten reders, yf ye lyke to take so myche [EEi] labour, as to rede saynt Austayns wordes agayne, in such wyse as Barns reherseth them in hys boke/ and than to compare them wyth hys very wordes in dede as I haue trewly translated them: ye shall merueyle mych to se what wylynesse he hath vsed therin, & yet what lacke of wyt therwith. For Barns hath as ye maye se, taken pecys of saynt Austayne, & pached theym to gyther wyth a worde or twayne of hys owne some where bytwene, as thoughe the wordes laye so to gyther in the text as he reherseth them/ where as he leueth out by the waye the very chyefe poynte of all, by whyche saynt Austayne excepteth them from forgyuenesse at theyr deth that than haue dedely synne/ that is to saye them ys do dye therin. And Barns leueth of before he come to the poynt, lest we sholde se that they whyche be forgyuen so clene at theyr deth, muste vse suche wayes therto, as not euery man so suffycyently vseth to be so soone so clene forgyuen, that yet dyeth in the state of grace, and shall be layd vp at last for pure gold in the treasures of god, but he shall in the furnace of the fyre of purgatory be purely fyned fyrst. Also where as saynt Austayne hauynge hys whole wordes well vnderstanden, sayth no more but that euery suche man of the chyrche as dyeth out of dedely synne, and wyth helpe of god in the vertue of Crystes passyon, by faythfull prayour contrycyon and great heuy- nesse of harte, wyth dylygence vsed in auoydynge synne and doynge good vertuouse workes in hys lyfe before, shall at hys deth be fully lorgyuen and layed vp pure golde in the treasures of god: Frere Barns reherseth his wordes in such wise, as though saynt Austayne had sayed that euery man ofthe very chyrche wythout any excepcyon, sholde passe hense pure & clene and forthwyth go to god as though no man of thys chyrch coulde dye in dedely synne/ wherof saynt Austayne in these wordes, <2quae talia habebat vt dimiterentur,>2 declareth playnely the contrary. Barns also concludeth, <2wherfore by thys meane the chyrche of god is in>2 the treasures of god without spotte or wryncle.>2 Whyche wordes whan I redde sowned vnto myne vnderstandyng, & so haue they to many that I know haue redde them, that the chyrche is in the treasures of goddes foreknowledge and predestynacyon alwaye pure and clene, where as saynte Austayne sayth nor meneth no more, but that as many of the chyrch as be forgyuen, thoughe many be not forgyuen bycause [EEiv] they be the lette of theyr forgyuenesse them self for lacke of dew desyrynge, yet they that be, shall whan they be, be layed vp pure golde in goddes treasory in one or other of those good shoppys, where shall neuer be more tryall, pressynge, nor strechynge put vnto them. Barns leueth out also these wordes of saynte Austayne, that god is the moste cunnynge wurkeman, & goth aboute the clensynge of our spottes, & stretchyng out of our wryncles dylygently/ but yet in thys world in the course of oure lyfe, he is alwaye in doynge of it, and hath not fully done it tyll we parte hense by deth. These wordes of saynt Austayne whyche Barons here leueth out, or purposely leueth of ere he come at theym/ do playne & full agre wyth that exposycyon that I gaue you here in thys boke agaynst Barns of saynt Poulys wordes that Barns rought in for hym: you men loue your Wiues as Cryste loued the chyrche, and hath gyuen hym selfe for her that he myghte sanctyfye her and clense her in the fountayne of water thorow the word of lyfe, to make her to hym selfe wythout spotte or wryncle or any such thyng, but that she myghte be h and wythout blame. Vppon whyche wordes Barns there sayth, <2here>2 <2haue you lo the very trewe chyrche of Cryst that is so pure and clene that she>2 <2neyther hath spotte nor wryncle.>2 Which wordes of saynt Poule as I partely told hym there, proue no thynge hys purpose. For saynt Poule sayeth there, but that Cryste gaue hym selfe to make her suschue/ and sayth not that he shall make euery parte of her s in heuen all that he hath sanctyfyed in baptysme. But lyke wyse as though god wolde euery man were saued, whych is to wyt yf euery man / so wolde hym selfe. Yet bycause many men of theyr owne frowardnesse wyll walke to dampnacyon, whom god wyll not wrestle wyth to saue them spyght of theyr teth bycause he consydereth that he is of hym selfe able to lyue wythout them/ so though he haue gyuen hym selfe for hys chyrch to make her gloryouse wythout spotte or wryncle, & wolde haue euery man come and be part of hys chyrch and in her to be saued, and of her by hym to lerne the trouth/ for he wolde sayth thapostle euery man sholde be saued & come to the knowledge of the trouth: yet as many men wyll neuer come into her, as Iewys, Turkes, and Sarasyns, and many ys haue comen in to her haue agayne gone from her, as haue Luther, Huyskyn, & Suinglius, Lambert, Huchyn, [EEi] and Barons, and many great heretyques mo/ so many a man that abydeth in her tyll his dyenge day, and byleueth her trewe doctryne: yet bycause he wyll but byleue yt, and not in well workynge folowe yt, but wyll wythout dew repentaunce dye in dedely synne, he departeth from her at his deth as an vncurable roten member caste out in conclusyon vppon the dyuyls dounghyll in hell. And those members of the chyrche that wyll worke well and not remayne wyth frere Barons in fayth alone/ god shall make theym gloryouse wythoute spot or wryncle. But as saynte Austayne sayth here, though at theyr instante prayour he goth styll aboute yt here/ & alway when they pray therfore he is in doyng of yt alway washyng and alway stretchyng: yet parte for intermyssyon of theyr prayeng part for theyre contynuall new bespottynge and wrynclynge, he neuer endeth yt here byfore theyr dyeng day/ so that the very chyrch is here in erth, not euen in the very beste men therof, pure & clene alway wythout eyther spotte or wryncle/ as agaynste saynte Aus- taynes wordes here Barns bosteth hym selfe, to proue by those wordes of the apostle, and as though he had clerely proued yt, sayth, <2Here>2 <2haueyou lo the very trew chyrch of Crist, that is so pure and so clene thatyt>2 <2neyther hath spot nor wryncle.>2 But now is yt a world to se how Barns after this boste in that place, endeth now saynte Austaynes wordes wyth the clene contrary sentence/ agaynste his owne parte/ and concludeth all the whole mater quyte agaynst hym selfe, & vtterly destroyeth his owne chyrche / and wenynge that pullynge downe were settynge vp, bosteth as myche therof to. For in the ende lo thus he sayth, <2And therfore here do we not lyue>2 <2wythout synne/ but we shall passefrom hense wythout synne &c.>2 Lo these wordes are Barons owne, so wryten as thoughe they were saynt Austaynes own wyth &c. And then he bryngeth in vppon them after his owne &c. these wordes folowyng, <2Here haue you clerely that the>2 <2chyrche of god is clensed and puryfyed by Crystefor knowledgyng of her synnes.>2 But lettynge passe that saynte Austayne sayth not that the whole chyrche of Cryste here passeth hense withoute synne, nor that euery man that ones is of his chyrch here, shall after be of his chyrche in heuen: let vs take frere Barons owne wordes, as though they were as he wolde haue them seme, the very wordes of saynt Austayne hym selfe/ and that they were none other wyse ment neyther by saynt Austayne, then Barns wolde haue theym [EEiv] taken, let vs now se then fyrste, what sayth here frere Barons, and then what sayth saynt frere Austayne Barns. Fyrst frere Barons bosteth and sayth, <2Here haue you clerely that the>2 <2chyrche of god is clensed and puryfyed by Cryste, for knowledgynge of his>2 <2synnes.>2 But then aske we frere Barns, of whych chyrch is our questyon? Of the chyrch of Cryst here in erth, or of the chyrche of Cryste in heuen? To this frere Barns muste nedes graunte, that all our mater of the chyrch betwene hym and vs, is of the chyrche of Criste here in erthe. Then wyll we aske hym, whyther our mater be of men lyuynge or of men dyenge? And syth we speke of the chyrch for the doctryne of the chyrche/ I suppose that frere Barns wyll graunt that he speketh of the chyrch as the men be lyuyng, quycke and quethynge, whyle they may speke and talke, and confesse what they byleue / and meaneth not to speke of theym, onely whyle they lye a dyenge spechelesse, and geuynge vp the goost. Well then ye perceyue nowe what frere Barons sayth and of whyche chyrche he bosteth when he sayth, <2Here you se clerely that god clenseth and purifyeth his chyrch for>2 <2knowledging of her synnes.>2 And whyche chyrche yt is that he sayth is clene and pure wythout spot or wryncle/ you se that he meaneth the very chyrch here in erth lyuynge and in good helth, of whyche men haue the trew doctryne, bycause that ys very chyrch is yt he sayth that can not erre. Now syth we se what sayth frere Barns: let vs now se what sayth frere saynt Austayne Barns. He sayth ye wote wel, that ys chyrch shal passe hense wythout synne, and that yt is in the treasours of god wyth out spot or wryncle/ but he sayth ys yt lyueth not here wyth oute synne. Lo good crysten reders, where sawe you euer any man geue him self so fowle a fal as frere Barns hath here done/ whyche goynge about to proue vs that the chyrch of Cryst lyuynge here in erth, is a company all holy, pure, and clene without spot or wryncle of synne, bryngeth in for him saint Austayne/ whose wordes altered and framed by frere Barons after his owne fashyon, playnely declare & shew that the chyrch of Cryst whyle yt lyueth in erth, lyueth not with oute synne, and therfore is neuer pure and clene wythoute spottes or wryncles of synne. And thus were as Barns sayd in ys begynnyng, that he wold bryng in saynt Austayne to proue his purpose playn: he semeth rather to brynge saynte Austayne in/ wyth playn [EEi] wordes to proue frere Barns a fole/ specyally syth he seeth not yet, what a fowle fall he hath/ but whyle he lyeth in the myre all to tumbled in dyrte, holdeth vppe his fowle sleue and bosteth what a clenly cote he hath, so pure and so clene wythout spot or wryncle, that saynte Peter could not fynd one droppe of durte theron. But now that he hath so shamfully loste his own chyrch of onely good holy people vnknowen, clene and pure wyth out spot or wryncle: yet that the very chyrche muste nedes be an vnknowen chyrche ofonely good holy men at the leste, though somwhat wryncled and not all vtterly spottelesse, and that it can in no wyse be any knowen chyrch / this wyll frere Barns as he weneth well & sub- stancially proue, so that though he proue not his owne that he promyseth, yet wyll he proue that yt can not be oures, but some other that neyther he nor we be ware of And therfore he sayth. Barns. Suche a chyrch muste there nedes be, though that the carnall yie can not se her, nor the fleshely reason can iudge of her. Wherfore we byleue this artycle by fayth, that holy chyrche is a communyon or felyshyppe of holy men. And we knowe yt not by seynge or felynge, as we do the felyshyppe of drapers or mercers/ for then were yt none artycle of the fayth. More. Nowe let vs argue lyke. A false Iew myght haue sayd in Crystes dayes whyle he preached in Hierusalem: To byleue Cryste must be a artycle of the fayth / ergo Cryste must be a person vnknowen, and not be perceyued by the carnall yie, but onely byleued by fayth, and not by seyng or felyng, as men know a draper or a mercer. Thus myghte in those dayes a false Iew haue argued, that Cryste hadde not ben very Cryste, bycause he was a knowen person. And this argument in a maner made the false Iewes in dede, when they sayde: we knowe this man whense he is/ but when Cryste cometh no man shall know whense he is. But as yt myght haue be answered them, that as Criste was both by fayth byleued, and yet was also by syght and felyng knowen, as well as was in such wyse knowen any draper or mercer eyther/ for the false Iewes knew hym by the tone meane onely, & his trew dis- cyples knew hym by both / and saynt Thomas of Inde after he hadde both sene hym and felt hym, dyd by syght and felynge know his manhed, and therewyth by fayth byleued his godhed: euen so we [EEiv] know the chyrche by syghte, herynge, and felynge, as we know drapers & mercers. And we byleue the spyryt of god abydynge therwyth and ledynge yt into all trouthe, and Cryste the chyefe hedde therof assyst- yng yt and preseruyng yt from faylynge agaynste all the gates of hell. And we byleue tllat yt is but one chyrche by professyon of baptysme, holyly dedecated vnto god, and seuered and openly knowen from all the manyfold open sectes of heretyques/ as the comen crede sayth that is dayly songen at the masse, we byleue one holy & apostolyke chyrche. Whyche worde apostolyque wherfore yt was putte in, frere Barons wyll hym selfe as yt semeth not lette to confesse, though Tyndale wyll not agree yt. And we byleue that the communyon and felyshyp of all suche folke, so halowed and dedycated vnto god, where so euer they be in the worlde, agreynge to gether in the knowen catholyque bylyefe/ is the bothe knowen and beleued holy catholyque chyrche of Cryste. Also we byleue the communyon of sayntes in a nother maner besydes that / that is to wyt, we byleue that such as lyue here in this chyrche, and in this chyrch also dye in the catholyque fayth and in the state of grace, shall after tllys lyfe haue the communyon and felyshyp of the sayntes that are byfore departed into heuen, and that lyued some tyme in this same knowen catholyque chyrche, and dyed in the same knowen catholyque fayth. Now yf frere Barons aske me how I proue that these wordes of the crede, <2sanctam ecclesiam catholicam,>2 be vnderstanden of the knowen catllolyque chyrche: I wyll proue yt by the wordes of saynt Austayne hym selfe, bycause frere Barons beynge professed frere of saint Austaynes order, wold seme to sette mych by hym. Lo these be therfore the wordes of saynte Austayne. Ye must knowe that we ought to byleue the chyrch, and not byleue in the chyrche / for the chyrche is not god, but the house of god. The catholyque chyrch the crede calleth the chyrch that iS spred abrode thorowe out the hole worlde. For the chyrches of here- tyques whych be dyuerse, are not called catholyke or vnyuersall chyrches. For they be conteyned euery secte in some proper place, & in his owne prouynce. But this catholyque chyrche is spred abrode wyth the shynyng lyght of one fayth, from the rysynge vppe of the sonne to [FFi] the goyng downe. There is no greater rychesse, no greater treasures, no greater honours, nor no greater substaunce of thys world, than is the catholyke fayth, whych saueth synfull men, and gyueth to the blynde theyr syght agayne, and healeth the syke, whych also chrysteneth those that are new come to chrysten relygyon and iusty- fyeth the faythfull, repayreth penitentes, increaceth the ryghteouse folke, crowneth martyrs, giueth orders to ye clergy, consecrateth prestes, prepareth vs to the kyngdome of heuyn, & maketh vs felowes & coparteners with the holy angels in the euerlastynge inhery- taunce. Who so euer he be, & what maner of man so euer he be/ he is no chrysten man ys is not in the chyrche of Cryst. For truely she is that onely chyrch, of whyche our lord gladly receyueth sacryfyce/ and which onely maye wythout any dystrust to be herd, make inter- cessyon for those that are wandered out of the way. For whyche cause also our lorde commaunded of the sacryfyce of the pascall lambe sayeng, ye shall eate it in one house onely, and ye shall beare no part of that flesshe forth a dores. The lambe is eaten in one house bycause the very trew hoost of our redemar is offred vp in the one catholyke chyrch onely. Of whose flesh god commaunded & forbade, that no part shold be borne out of ys dores. For he forbydeth vs to gyue any holy thyng to dogges. In thys chyrch onely is a good worke frutefully done/ & therfore none receyued the reward of the peny, but they onely ys labored within the vyne yerde. It is she onely that kepeth them with a strong bonde of cheryte, that kepe them selfe within her. And for thys cause truely the water of Noyes flode caryed the arke vp to ys hyghar places/ but she destroyed as many as she found wythout the arke. She is onely that chyrch, in whych we maye veryly byholde the heuenly mysteryes. And therfore sayth our lord to Moyses, I haue a place & thou shalt stand vpon a rocke. And soone after, I shall take away my hand, & then thou shalt se me on the backe halfe. For bycause the trewth is perceyued & sene onely out of the catholyke chyrch/ therfore sayth our lorde that he hath a place from which he may be sene. Moyses is set vpon a rocke to byholde goddes fygure. For except a man holde & kepe the sure faste grounde of the fayth/ he can not dyscerne and knowe the dyuyne presence. Dysseuer sayth saynt Cypryan the sonne beame frome the whole body of the sonne/ the vnyte of the lyghte receyueth no dyuysyon. Breke of a braunche from a tree/ and as [FFiv] soone as it is ones broken of, it can not any more budde. Cut awaye a ryuer from the heed and anone it dryeth vp. By these wordes of Cypryan we perceyue, that ye lyght receyueth no dyuisyon in the holy men that are predestynate vnto the kyng- dome of god, whyche can in no maner wyse be dyuyded from the chyrch. And that the braunche broken of from the tree can no Ienger budde/ we vnderstande it of the buddyng of the euerlastynge lyfe. And the dryeng vp of the ryuer that is cut of from the cundytte heed, in this wyse vnderstand we, that they are voyde and empty of the holy goste that are deuyded from the vnyte. The felowshyp of the sayntes, that is to say let vs holde our selfe in the communyon & felowshyp of hope, wyth those sayntes whych are deceaced in thys fayth whyche we haue receyued. Therfore yf we wyll haue felowshyppe wyth the sayntes in the euerlastyng lyfe/ let vs thynke vpon the folowyng of them. For they must recognyse & fynde in vs some what of theyr vertues, to thentent they may vouche- saufe to pray for vs vnto our lord. For yf we can not beare the tor- mentes whyche the sayntes suffred euyn to the death: yet at the leste wyse lette vs by theyr prayour and intercessyons fyghte agaynst concupyscences. For neyther Abraam, nor Isaac, nor Iacob, were put to death / and yet by the merites of fayth and iustyce, they deserued to be chyefly honoured amonge the patryarkes. To whose feast is gathered euery man that is founde faythfull, ryghteouse, & laudable. And therfore my derest bretherne, all though we suffer no suche thynge, no bondes, no strypes, no presonment, none other bodyly tormentes, nor no persecucyon of men for ryghteousnes sake:. yet we maye be able to obteyne the felowshyp of the sayntes, yf we labour to chastyce our body & make it subiect, yf we accustome our seluys to pray vnto our lord with an humb1e spyryte and a contryte soule, yf we endeuour our selfe to take wyth a peaceable mynde the spyghtes that are done vnto vs by our neygh, bour, yf we contende and stryue wyth our selfe to loue those that hate vs and do vs wrong, & to do them good and to pray gladly for theyr lyfe & well fare, and to be wyth the vertue of pacyence, and the frutes of good workes, garnysshed & made gaye. For yf our conuer- sacyon be such/ & yf we also accordyng to the sayeng of ys apostle, exhibyte our bodyes a lyuely hoost, holy & pleasaunt vnto god / we shal be gyfted wyth ye heuenly honour that we [FFi] may be in one glory rewarded wyth them, ys for our lordes sake gaue theyr membres to the deth. For lyke wyse as theyr deth is precyouse in the syghte of our lorde, so let our lyfe be to/ & than shall we be worthy also to entre into the place of the cytye aboue / and amonge the companyes of the blessed martyrs, to render vnto oure redemer the vowys of thankes. Lo here haue ye herde good chrysten reders how saynte Austayn vnderstandeth and expowneth both <2sanctam ecclaesiam catholicam>2 the holy catholyke chyrche, and also <2sanctorum communionem>2 the com- munyon or felesshyppe of sayntes. Wherby frere Barns maye se, that yf he byleue saynt Austayn as he wold seme to do, than is his owne fonde imagynacyon quayled, by whyche he diuyneth after hys dyvynite, that these wordes <2sanctorum communionem>2 do sharpely prycke ys clergye, as he sayth after in an other place in thys maner. Barns. That chyrche that can not erre, is all onely the vniuersall chyrche, whych is called the communyon and felyshyppe of sayntes / the whyche addycyon was made by holy fathers (for in saynt Cyprianes tyme was there no mencyon of it) by all lykelyhed to declare the presumpcyon of certayne men and of certayne congregacyons, that rekened them selfe to be holy chyrch. Wherfore my lordes se well to, leste the holy goste haue prycked you with thys addycyon. For you haue alwayes made your selfe the holy chyrche, ye and that without any holynesse. More. If there hath neuer bene any holynesse at all in all the whole spyrytualtye/ than were those holy fathers ys Barns sayth added in the crede sanctorum communionem, some holy carnall fathers. Well be it so than for Barons sake. But I dare saye they were none suche fathers as father frere Luther is, & as father frere Huyskyn is, that byget chyldren by nonnes. But thys suffyseth here agaynst frere Barns, that ye perceyue by saynt Austayn here, that frere Barns fonde inuencyon is fayled. By these wordes of saynt Austayne, ye se also that frere Barns in hys gay bable, wherwyth he wolde make men byleue that the chyrche can not be the chyrche but yf it suffre persecucyon, and that no man myghte come to heuen nor be a trewe chrysten man, but yf he were persecuted: here lo good reders, besydes that it is a greate persecu- cyon vnto the chyrche, and a ryghte greate gryefe and heuynesse, to se so many of her membres waxe so roten and fall away from [FFiv] her body, by the incurable canker of these false festered heresyes/ and that it is also sore persecuted bothe in body and goodes by these false heretyques, in dyuers partes of Almayne/ yet se you ferther here in the fore rehersed wordes, the thynge that I tolde you before/ that as for persecucyon it suffyseth to suffre it whan it is of necessyte put vnto them/ and men neyther bounden to go seke it, nor so to suffer euyl folke amonge them selfe, that the contagyon of a few maye cor- rupte a great many. Whyche growen onys in great nomber, may fall vnto rebellyon and persecute all the cuntrey. For saynt Austayn slleweth here well and clerely, that with out persecucyon, yf we llaue as wolde god we had, so plentuousely as our parte were to haue, such good cherytable wurkes wyth the catholyke fayth, as hym selfe reherseth/ we may be good chrysten men and membres/ not onely of the very chyrche here in erth (whyche we maye be by communyon of fayth though good wurkes want) but also of ye very chyrche in heuen. More ouer good chrysten readers, ye se at saynt Austayne in these wordes, doth playnely shew that the sayntes whyche are all redy in heuen, do praye for vs that are here in erthe/ whyche thynge these heretyques wyll in no wyse agre. Here se you also that these wordes <2sanctam ecclaesiam catholicam,>2 by whyche frere Barns wolde make vs wene that the holy catholyke chyrche were a secrete vnknowen chyrche scatered about the worlde/ saynt Austayn well and playnely declareth yf we consyder well hys wordes, that it must nedes be thys comune knowen catholyke chyrche. But now that I haue playnely confuted frere Barons by saynte Austayne hym selfe, whose order and rule frere Barns professed, and whose wordes he so often alledgeth for hys purpose alwaye prouynge agaynste hys purpose: I wyll now for frere Barns ferther wurshyp, confute hym by the selfe same place of saynt Austayne, whyche hym selfe bryngeth here forth for hys specyall profe of hys vnknowen holy chyrch, to proue it a company of vnknowen faythfull folke beynge holy by theyr onely fayth/ wherof these are frere Barns wordes. Barns. Thys is well preued by your owne law De con. di. 4. c. prima igitur whose wordes be these. Therfore is the chyrche holy, bycause she byleueth ryghtuousely [FFi] in god. And then frere Barns goth forth with his own glose vpon these wordes and sayth/ Heare you not the cause wherfore the chyrche is holy? bycause she byleueth ryghtuousely in god/ that is, she byleueth nothynge but in hym, and she byleueth nor heareth no worde but hys/ as our mayster Cryste bereth wytnesse: My shepe heare my voyce, and a nother mannys voyce do they not knowe. More. Barons here holdeth on his olde crafte, in furnyshyng his owne gloses wyth falsefyenge the scrypture of god. For ye shall vnder- stande good crysten reders, that saynt Iohan the euangelyste, oute of whose gospell Barons hath taken the wordes of our sauyoure Cryste, reherseth theym not in suche wyse as Barns doth/ that is to wyt, that the shepe of Cryste do not know the voyce of any other man. But he sayth that  ys shepe of Cryst do not folow any straunger, but do fle fro bycause they know not the voyce of straungers. And now com th Barons and telleth vs, that Cryst sayde that his shepe do not knowe the voyce of any other man/ as though the chyrch sholde refuse all other wordes then onely those that Criste spake in his owne person. But Cryste sayde not they sholde here none other, but that they sholde not heare straungers. For by other men whome he sendeth, his flocke hereth his own wordes. And therfore he sayth hym selfe to his trewe catholyque preachers/ he that heareth you heareth me. But by straungers that is to wyt by heretyques, whyche be straungers from the housholde of Crystes catholyque chyrche, and whyche do straungely reherse and straungly declare Crystes catholyke scripture, agaynste the knowen catholyke doctryne of Crystes knowen catho- lyque chyrche, by the voyce of such straungers, that is to wyt by the voyce of suche heretyques, Chrystes shepe can not heare theyre owne shepeherde Cryste. And therfore they fle from euery suche straunger, accordynge as saynte Poule whose voyce Cristes shepe do heare, bycause he was a nother and not a straunger, sayth vnto Crystes flocke, That man that is a heretyque after the fyrste or the seconde warnynge estewe and fle from. And thus ye se good readers, how frere Barns here falsefyeth and wronge interpreteth the wordes of Cryste in the gospell of saynte Iohan. But now let vs retourne to consyder the wordes of that lawe that Barons hath here rehersed you/ from whyche I [FFiv] haue ben as ye se a lytle letted by this other false poynte of his in false rehersynge the scrypture. But now concernynge that law good reders/ you shall vnderstande that the wordes of that law be taken out of a sermone of sayn Austayne, whyche he made vnto certayn persons forth theyr baptysme. In whyche sermone amonge many other thynges that he preached vnto them, both in the same and other two sermons that he had made them byfore/ he sayth vnto them thus: where as we haue asked eche of you, Byleuest thou in holy chyrche, remyssyon of synnes, and resurreccyon of the flesh: we asked you not after that maner, that you sholde euen in the same maner as you byleue in god, byleue in the catholyque holy chyrche/ whyche chyrche is therfore holy and catholyque, bycause yt byleueth ryght in god. And therfore we sayde it not, to thentent that ye sholde byleue in the chyrche as ye sholde byleue in god/ but vnderstand you that we byd you and dyd bydde you, that beynge conuersaunt in the holy catholyque chyrche, you sholde byleue in god, and that you sholde byleue also the resur- reccyon of the fleshe that ys to come. Lo good crysten reders, here haue you herde that in the selfe place where as saynt Austayne sayth that the chyrche is holy and catho- lyque, bycause yt byleueth ryghte in god, bycause none of all the sectes of heretyques can be holy nor catholyque, that is to saye vnyuersall/ syth very holynesse can none be out of the ryght chyrch, nor god shall suffer no secte of heresye to sprede ouer all the worlde so as he sprede the vnyuersall chyrche: in the selfe same place I say saynte Austayne declareth, that by these wordes, I byleue in the holy catholyque chyrche, is not ment that we shall byleue therin as we byleue in god/ but that that we must byleuing one holy catho- lyque chyrche, abyde and be couersaunt in the same one holy catho- lyque chyrche/ and byleuynge in god, contynue in that one holy catholyque chyrche, and not go out therof into any of so manyfolde dyuerse sectes of heretyques. By whyche ye may playnely perceyue that saynt Austayn ther declareth the holy catholyque chyrche of the ryght bylyefe, to be ys comen one vnyuersall knowen chyrch dys- tyncte and dyuyded from all the knowen chyrches of heretyques. For yf yt were vnknowen, how shold he byd them by that exposycion of that artycle, abyde and be conuersaunt [FFi] in yt? or how could he as he sayth also a litle byfore in the same sermon, as is also re- hersed in the same law, say that the ceremonyes vsed in the bap- tisme were instituted by the same catholyque chyrche? For yf yt were vnknowen, how could yt any thyng instytute or ordayne? And fynally to put out of all doute & question, that saynt Austayn abhorreth from frere Barns heresy, that argueth vppon that artycle of the crede, that the chyrche sholde be an vnknowen chyrche / saynte Austayne sayeth playnely as I shewed you byfore agaynst Tyndale, that lykewise as he were accursed that wolde saye that Cryste was not a man knowen, so accursed be he that sayeth the chyrche of Cryste is not a chyrche knowen. Lo thus are we now good cristen reders comen vnto an ende of frere Barons chyrche, in whych ye playnely se that he can neyther agre wyth Tyndales vnknowen chyrche of repentaunte synners, nor impugne the comen knowen catholyke chyrch of Cryste, nor proue his own secrete chyrch of onely sayntes vnknowen. Nor he hath not alledged as ye se well also, neyther any one texte of holy scrypture, nor any sentence of holy doctour/ aut falsefyenge them and framynge thern a freshe after his owne fashyon / yet haue they not onely dothynge proued for hym, but in conclusyon clerely proued agaynst hym. And therfore wyll I (to ende where Barns endeth hym selfe) let you som what se how he handeleth saynt Bernard, and there wythall fynyshe this boke. Barns. But let vs se what saynte Bernarde sayth on you. They call theym selfe the mynysters of Cryste, but they serue Antechryste/ they go gorgyousely arayed of our lordes goodes, vnto whome they geue none honoure. And of these goodes cometh the harlottes deckyng that thou seest dayly, the game players dysgysynge, and kynges apperrell. Of this cometh golde in theyr brydelles, in their sadelles, and in theyr spurres/ so that theyr spurres be brighter then the aulters. Of this commeth theyr plentuous wyne presses and their full sellers, bolkynge from this vnto that. Of this commeth theyr tonnes of swete wynes. Of this be theyr baggys so fylled/ for suche thynges as these be, wyll they be rulers of the chyrch/ as dekens, archdekens, byshoppes and archbishoppes &c. My lordes, I hadde thoughte to haue added cardynalles and legates, abbottes and pryours, to haue made the company more holy. But I durst not. How thynke you? Of whom doth he speke when he sayth byshoppes and archbyshoppes? What holynes doth he reproue, when he speketh of gorgyouse aray, [FFiv] of harlottes deckynge, of game players dysgysynge, of golden spurres, sadylles and brydelles? yf there were an hundred that dyd vse yt more then you/ yet muste you nedes graunte that he speketh of you. He passeth me sore in condemnynge of your holy ornamentes. For he calleth you the seruauntes of Antichryste / and your holy ornamentes harlottes deckynge, and game players dysgysynge/ and he sayth that you are neyther the chyrch nor of the chyrch, but the seruauntes of Anti- chryste. How thynke you by saynt Bernarde, yt is time to condemne hym/ for he speketh agaynst holy chyrch, and all holy ornamentes. This dare I well say, that yf the beste crysten man wythin the realm shulde preache these wordes of saynte Bernarde / you wolde not stykke to condemne hym for an heretique. But you were wonte to call hym swete Rernard. But my thynketh that he is soure inough in this thynge. Wherfore dyspute the mater wyth hym that you may come into the chyrch, and not wyth me? <2Finis.>2 More. Now good reders here is an ende of frere Barons processe con, cernynge the chyrche/ whyche processe he hath ended wyth saynt Bernarde. By whose wordes Barns wold yt sholde seme, that saynt Bernarde were of his opynyon/ that is to wyt that suche as are euyll are not of the chyrch. And then were the chyrche an vnknowen chyrch of onely good folke alone/ how be yt not yet precysely his chyrche / for his chyrche is ye wote well a chyrche of folke not meanely good, but of folke so good so pure and so clene, that ther be not among them all so myche as eyther spot or wryncle. How be yt though saynt Bernarde shold not proue Barons chyrche/ yet wolde frere Barons that saynt Bernard shold seme to proue the chyrch to be at the lest an vnknowen chyrch of onely good folke/ and so to proue that the knowen catholyque chyrche were not the chyrch. For as for Barns of trouthe and all his felowes to, so they myghte dysproue and destroy this chyrche that is/ they care not greatly for the makynge of a nother. Yet wolde frere Barons farther, that saynte Bernarde sholde seme to dyspyse and set at nought all holy ornamentes, and call them harlottes deckyng/ and then by the same meanes dyspyse all other holy ceremonyes of the chyrche. But I shall shew you good reders, fyrst that saynt Bernarde proueth nothynge for frere Barns, nor agaynste the knowen catho- lyque chyrche, though his wordes were but as frere Barns reherseth them. Seecondly shall I shew you that frere Barns playth with [GGi] saynt Bernard here, as ye haue sene hym before play wyth saynt Austayn, & wyth saynt Poule, & with saynt Iohan the euangelyst/ that is to wytte reherse hym false and chaunge some wordes, & kepe some wordes away to make his mater seme swete. Fynally shall I shew you ys saynt Bernarde not in thys heresy onely concernynge the questyon whych is the chyrche, but also in all frere Barns other heresyes was his very specyall enemy and then wyll I For the fyrste poynt, yf saynt Bernarde sayd here all as frere Barns reherseth hym/ yet what had he sayde for frere Barns con- cernynge the chyrch? do all those wordes amount to any more, then that there are in euery kynd of mynistres of the chyrch, some that are nought? And who denieth that? And then he sayth also, that all suche as so be / do serue Antichryste and not Chryste. And who sayth nay? who sayth the euyll folke serue god well/ dothe not euery tnan agre, that euyll chrysten peple do by theyr dedely synnes serue the deuyll? If frere Barons wyll any thynge proue vs by saynte Bernarde, he muste shewe where saynte Bernarde sayth, that suche as are euyll are not of the chyrche. He sheweth vs no suche worde. And yet myghte saynte Ber- narde, and many an other holy man saye such a word/ and yet meane no suche thynge therby. For he that wolde saye in a sermon, that a monke that breketh hys obedyence or any of hys other vowes, is neyther monke nor chrysten man, but mych wurse than a Iew/ meaneth not therby that he is no lenger a monke in dede nor a member of his owne monastery. Nor he that wolde saye that a woman that breketh her obedyence to her husband were not a wyfe/ meneth not that her husband were therfore dyscharged of her, and may take an other wyfe. Nor he that sayth a dronken wyfe is no woman but a sowe/ meaneth not therby perde that all her chyldren shalbe pyggys. The prophete speketh in the person of our sauyour hym selfe: I am a wurme and not a man/ & yet ment not therby to deny that he was a very man in dede/ but that he shold be in so vyle maner handeled at his passyon, as though he were no man but a very vile wurme. A man may haue a seruaunt whom he giueth meate, drynke, & waggys, that shall yet by stelth do to some other more seruyce than to his owne mayster/ ye and secretely somtyme agaynst hys own mayster to. And therfore our sauyour sayd not, no man can haue two maysters, but he sayd no man can serue two maysters, for [GGiv] yf he haue twayne, whyle he serueth the tone, he shall leue the tother vnserued. And therfore though saynt Bernarde saye that they serue Antechryste, and that they serue the deuyll yf he had sayed also, and therfore they be no seruauntes of Cryste, nor be no chrysten menne but Chrystes enemyes & very antechrystes: yet had he not ment in all thys, ys they were for all thys oute of the chyrche, and none of it whyle they were such, and than of it agayn whan they were amended, and out of it agayn as soone as they synned agayne / & thus playe in and out, lyke in docke, out netle, that no man sholde wyt whan they were in and whan they were out, nor knowe whych were the chyrche. Thus haue I shewed you good reders, that all though saynt Bernard had sayd in dede as Barns falsely reherseth him, ye & som what more to/ yet had it not proued for Barns. Now for the secunde poynt, ye shall vnderstand that Barons hath vntruely translated you saynt Bernardes wordes. For lettynge passe some peces that he hath lefte out in the myddes, for no cause that I can se but yf it were for lacke of lernynge, and lettynge passe some suche also as he hath mysse translated of ignoraunce: I wyll shewe you but one place or twayne, whyche he hath wyth one word or twayne so chaunged of malyce, that he hath turned the sentence for hys purpose clene agaynste the mynde of saynte Bernarde that wrote it. For euyn in the very fyrst begynnynge where saynt Bernarde sayth thus: <2Ministri Christi sunt & seruiunt Antichristo/>2 that is, They be the mynystres of Cryste & they serue Antichryst: Barns hath trans, lated it thus, <2They call them selfe the mynistres of Cryst, but they serue>2 <2Antichrist.>2 So that where saynte Bernard sayth, that though they serue Antichryste yet they be the mynystres of Cryst in hys chyrche here/ frere Barns turneth that an other way, & maketh as though saynt Bernarde sayd not that they be so, but sayd onely thatthey call them selfe so. And in lyke wyse after in the ende, where as saint Bernard sayth, <2pro huiusmodi volunt esse, & sunt ecclesiarumpraepositi/>2 that is, For such thynges as these be wyll they be rulers of chyrches, and so they be, as deanys, archdekyns &c. Barns hath translated it thus, <2For such thinges as these be, wyll they be rulers of the chyrch, dekyns, arch->2 <2dekyns &c.>2 And these wordes, so they be/ he leueth out, as though saint Bernard sayd not ys they were any rulers in the chyrch, but onely sayth ys they wold be so. And than whan he hath in suche wyse falsely translated saynt Bernarde to make hym seme to saye so/ than he lyeth [GGi] out alowd, & sayth vnto them hym selfe, <2to saynt Bernarde saith thatyou >2 <2be neyther the chyrche nor of the chyrch.>2 Wherof as ye se saynt Bernarde sayeth by playne wordes the contrary / whych playne wordes of saynt Bernarde frere Barns hath as ye playnely se, of playne & pure malyce manyfestely & falsely chaunged. And who so euer ys is lerned & rede ys same sermon of saynt Bernard, shall there euydentely se that saynt Bernarde calleth the very chyrche of Cryst, the comune knowen catholyke chyrche, and none vnknowen chyrche. For he lamenteth there the estate of the chyrche, whyche he calleth also there the body of Cryste/ wherby ye maye se that he speketh of the very chyrche of Cryste in erthe. Now than sheweth he there that thys chyrche hath bene in dyuerse tymes dyuersely vexed/ fyrste by paynyms that were neuer of it/ secundely by heretykes whyche were of it and went out of it/ and thyrdely by noughty folke and euyl rulers that be of it styll and go not out, of whome he sayth those wordes that Barons hathe falsely translated / and fourthly by very good men therof also, whyche abydynge therin and beynge also styll therof, be yet somtyme begyled by the subtyll slayght of ys most wyly deuyll, vnder colour of goynge about some farre better thynge. And thys processe of those .ii1.i. vexacyons of the chyrche, saynt Bernarde there bryngeth in vppon these wordes of the prophete. <2imore nocturno, a sagitta volante in die, a>2 <2negocio perambulante in tenebris, ab incursu et demonio meridiano/>2 assygnynge to euery one of those.iiii. vexacyons one of those foure kyndes of deuyls. By all whyche whole processe together, who so be lerned and rede it shall se Barns heresye concernynge the very chyrch, very full and playne ouerthrowen. For there shall he playnely se, that saynt Bernarde whom Barns here bryngeth in to proue that euyll folke be none of the very chyrche of Cryst, but onely good holy folke/ declare there expressely, that the very chyrche of Cryste whyche he calleth there the body of Cryste/ is the whole nomber of both good and bad, dyuers of lyuynge and yet one in bylyefe/ out of whych one chyrch all the chyrches of heretykes be departed. Now where as Barns also sayth, that saynt Bernarde calleth all the holy ornamentes harlattes deckyng, & game players dysguysynge, as though saynt Barnarde dyd as hym selfe doth, mocke and scorne all halowynge of copys, vestymentes and chalyces, and such other ornamentes as are vsed in ys chyrch about the dyuyne seruyce/ whych kynd [GGiv] of halowed thynges frere Barns in mockage and scorne accompteth amonge other prophane thynges, and ioyneth to gyther in the lefe of hys boke nexte before, bokes, bellys, candels, chalyces, oyle, crysme, and holy water, wyth horses, howndes, and such other goodly gere: to here hym now make as though saynt Bernarde sayd ys same, it is a thyng to abomynable. For whych cause to thentent ye maye the more clerely know how farre saynt Bernard was from the fauorynge of frere Barons heresyes, I shall gyue you a playne sample or twayne. Saynt Bernard lykeneth apostatas vnto the traytour Iudas. I wolde frere Barons had spyed and brought vs forthe that/ for in that place he lykeneth vnto Iudas, not onely those apostatas that cast oftheyr habytes and ronne out at rouers, as frere Barns doth, & as Iudas dyd after ye maundy/ but also those relygiouse folke ys are apostatas in theyr mynde, and yet byde styll in theyr habyte and in theyr cloyster, bycause they can not runne out of theyr cloyster & cast of theyr habyte for fere of worldly shame. By whyche wordes of saynt Bernard ye maye good reders perceyue, that suche apostasy as is in our wrechyd dayes wyth mych people lytell estemed, was llad in saynt Bernardes tyme amonge all chrysten people for a thynge so shamefull, and abomynable, that those whyche els wolde fayne haue runne out of relygyon, and thought them selfe in the fyre almoste all ye whyle they were therin, yet durste not for all that runne out for the very shame that they sholde haue hadde to loke any man in the face. Saynt Bernarde also detestynge suche apostasy, and the pestylent heresyes into whyche suche apostatas comenly do falle,wsyteth vnto Hildefonsus the erle one Henry an apostata, runne out of relygyon, and corruptynge the cuntrey wyth many suche poysened heresyes as these apostatas do now. And to thentent that ye may the better and the more fully perceyue the goodnes of saint Bernarde in thys mater, and hys frutefull labour & payne taken to the honour of god and profyte of chrysten people, and by god agaynewarde wyth many great open myracles alowed and approued agaynst the sayd Henry frere Barns double brother, that is to wytte as well in heresye as in apostasy: I shall reherse you somwhat of the mater out of the story, that was by a very vertuouse holy man, in the same tyme that the thynge was done, wryten in the lyfe of saynt [GGi] Bernard. In the partes of Tolouse, one whose name was Henry, some tyme a monke, and after that a lewd apostata, of a very vngracious lyuynge, and pernycyouse doctryne, by his persuasyble wordes hadde tourned the wauerynge people of that countrey/ and as thapostell foresayde of certayne folke, he lyued in hypocrysye, and lyed, and made merchaundyse of them by false fayned wordes. For he was a manyfeste enymy of the chyrche, derogatynge vnreuerently bothe the holy sacramentes and mynysters of the same. And he hadde now preuayled very myche in his malyce. For as our reuerent father saint Bernard wrytyng of hym to the prynce of Tolouse, amonges other thynges sayeth: euery where almoste where he went, men myght fynde the chyrches wythout people, people wythout prestes, prestes wythoute dewe reuerence, & fynally chrysten men wythout Cryste. The lyfe of Cryst was shyt from the babys of crysten folke, whyle the grace of baptysme was denyed. Prayours were mockte at, and the oblacyons for mennys soules, prayenge to sayntes, the sentence of excommunycacyon, the pylgrimage of faythfull folke, the byeldynge of chyrches, the sparynge from bodely worke on the holy dayes, the consecratynge of the holy creme & oyle, and fynally all maner ordinaunces of the chyrche, were set at nought. In this necessyte this holy man often therunto instantely requyred by the crysten folke of that countrey, at the laste toke his iournay/ persuaded and brought therunto, by the most reuerente father in god Albericus byshoppe of Hostyens, and legate of the see apostolyque. And when he came thyther, he was receyued of the people there wyth an incredyble deuocyon, as though an angell had comen downe vnto theym frorn heuen. Nor longe myght he not tary wyth them, for that no man was able to kepe bakke the thronge of the people from hym/ so great was the multytude of theym that came to hym dayly and nyghtly, callyng vppon hym for his blessynge and his helpe. Yet preached he certayne dayes in the cytye of Tolouse, and in all suche other places as that wreche most had haunted and moste greuousely hadde infected many a symple soule in the fayth, in those places saynte Bernarde instructed and strengthed them that were wauerynge, reuokynge theym that erred, settynge vppe agayne those that were ouerthrowen, ouerthrowynge and kepynge vnder by [GGiv] his authoryte, the subuerters, and all those that were obstynate / all whome he ouerthrewe and repressed in suche wyse, that they neyther durste resyste, nor so myche as appere and shewe them selfe. How be yt though that heretyke was then fled, and hadde hyd hym selfe / yet were his ways in suche wyse stopped, and his patthes so byset, that scante he coulde after lurke sure in any place/ and was at the last taken and faste bounde and brought to the byshoppe. In this iourney of saynt Bernarde, god was in his said seruaunt gloryfyed by many myracles, whyle he called bak the hartes of some from theyr wycked errours, and some al so cured from dyuerse diseases of theyr bodyes. There is a place in the same countrey, called Sarlate, where after his sermon fynyshed, they brought many louis of brede to the seruaunt of god (as the custome was euery where) to be halowed/ whyche louys of brede he lyft vppe his hande, and in the name of god blessed theym wyth the sygne of the crosse, and sayde vnto the people: by this shall ye knowe that the thynges whych we tell you be trew, and the thynges whyche these heretyques tell you be false/ yf ye se that your syke folke after that thei haue tasted of this brede be cured. Then the reuerent father the byshoppe of Carnotenses, that great famouse man byshoppe Galfryde (for he was ther present and nexte the man of god) somwhat ferenge leste that myracle of curynge shold not fall vpon euery syke man that sholde eate of that brede, sayde vnto the peple: Those syke folke shall fynde helpe that eate of this brede with a good fayth. But then saint Bernard nothyng doutynge of the powre of our lorde, answered, That is not the thynge that I wolde haue sayde/ but that veryly who so euer taste therof shall be cured, to thentent they may ther by know that we be trewe, and the very trewe messangers of god. So great a nomber of syke people, by the tastynge of that same brede recouered, that the tydynges thereof was publyshed through out all the prouynce / so that that holy man retournynge by the places nere there aboute, was for the intolerable concurse of people fayne to turne out of his waye, and fered to go thyther. Now good crysten reders, here may ye perceue that holy saynte Bernarde, wyth whose wordes frere Barons as though saynt Bernard were his specyall patrone, so proud[GGi]ly maketh an ende of all his peuyshe processe, is so full, so open and so playne agaynst hym in all his whole heresyes, that a man wolde meruayle where frere Barns wytte was when he brought hym in. For fyrste we haue sene that the very wordes of saynt Bernarde whyche Barns bryngeth, newe framed by hym selfe, and falsely forged for his owne auauntage, do playnly make agaynst his purpose that he bryngeth them for. And now ye se farther here, that saynt Bernarde also was very enymy to Barons all other heresyes/ and not onely dyd preache agaynst the selfe same heresyes that Barons nowe setteth forth, but dyd also proue them false, and the fayth of the catholyque chyrch trew, by manyfolde open myracles. And fynally where Barons reproueth the chyrch for persecutyng of heretykes: ye se that holy saynt Bernar whome Barns so specyally bryngeth in for his parte, dyd playnely pursew theym, and laboured for theyr punyshement hym selfe. And farther haue I shewed you, that saynt Bernard in the selfe same processe out of whych frere Barns hath pycked and falsefyeth those few wordes that he bryngeth/ doth playnely to frere Barons confusyon in his pryncypall purpose of the chyrche, declare & make open that the very trew chyrche of Cryste his mystycall bodye here in erth, is no secrete vnknowen chyrche, as frere Barons goth aboute to make yt seme/ but is oute of all questyon, this one comen well knowen catholyke chyrche of all crysten nacyons, as I byfore haue specyfyed, left to gether in the stocke of vnite of the knowen catho- lyque fayth, dystyncte and dyuyded from all the manyfolde wythered braunches of so many soundry scysmys and sectes, as from the begynnyng vnto these wreched dayes haue wyth obstynate malyce wylfully fallen therfro. And in this wyse good crysten reders here ende I thys boke agaynste frere Barons euyll and vncrysten processe/ wherwyth agaynste the promyse of Cryste, the deuyll and he labour in vayne to pull downe Crystes chyrche. Thus endeth the.viii. boke. The .ix. booke Which is a recapitulacion & Summary profe that the comon knowen catho- lyke churche is the verye true Churche of Christ. Ye haue good christen reders by my seuen bokes before herd at great lengthe the secret vnknowen churche deuised bi William Tindal. And in ys eight haue ye herd ys secret vnknowen church framed & set vp by frere Barns. Of which two churches ye shall if ye consider well the dyscripcions and the differences, beside that neither nother of them proueth hys owne church, yet ye shal I say see that neither of their churches can stande and agree wyth other. Now if I should farther shew you as I gladly would, sauinge that it woulde aske more tyme and laboure then were wel done to leese: els would I gladly as I sayde haue shewed you both Luthers church, and Husses church, & Huskyns church, and yet some other churches of mo mennes making to, euery one of all which hathe buylded theym selfe an vnknowen church, in the deuising wherof they haue gone so farre beyonde theyr owne wyttes, and set vp their churches so farre aboue ys sunne, that who so rede them and consider them wel, wil surely thinke in hym self that when they sate & mused vppon that matter, they were so farre inspired with the spirit of the buttery that the goose was ouer the mone. For besyde al theyr other folies to frantike for anye man, neyther in the people of theyr church, nor in the signes and tokens wherby theyr church shuld be knowen (for knowen wil eche of them haue his church, and yet they wyl al haue all their churches vnknowen) not one of them agreeth wyth a nother, sauynge that as eche of them would haue his churche by some signes and tokens knowen, so wil thei al haue al their churches vnknowen. And in conclusion so thei be in dede, and to no man more vnknowen then euerye mans owne to himselfe. And yet al their owne sygnes and tokens if they wold folow them, wold lead them plaine vnto our owne comon knowen catholike churche. For there is not a signe or token that ought is, that anye of them al haue deuised to know ys church by, but it is (as ye shal after se) playnely founden in this knowen catholike church. But while thei be not content to knowledge this knowen church for the verye churche, not withstanding that they see therin the very markes and tokens of the verye churche that they deuyse for sure markes them selfe, but wyll for all that go runne out of this knowen church, in which they finde their markes, to seeke a church vnknowen, whiche neither by those markes nor anye other they shall neuer finde while they lyue, nor if there wer any such, and that they should happen on it at aduenture, yet bi those markes nor none other they coulde neuer [Fi] know, and of a very trouth, very church such as any of them al deuise is there no where none: fare they nottherfore al the whole mainy like a mad sort of dronken sottes, that when they were syttynge by the fyre to warme them, were sodaynly fallen in such a frantike folye, that wening the very fyre were not that they syt by, would runne out rashly in a sodaine rage euery man a sondry way to seeke a very fyre somwher without in the frost. Surely good christen readers, ther is a plaine figure of these false foolish brutish beastly folke in holy scripture in the.xix. chapter of Genesis. For like as ther the beastlye Sodomites were so stryken blynde by the stroke of God, that they fumbled about and coulde not fynde the doore, to enter into Loth his holi house, which they went about wyth theyr abominable beastlines to polute and defile: so these beastly people these abominable heretikes, whiche nothyng so greedelye go about, as to polute the sanctuarye of God, and shame theyr owne mother holy church, where as if they taryed wyth her, thei might bi the motherly cure and diligent helpe of her, attaine remedye of their other sicknesses, they runne out in a mad rage, and yet hauynge an imagynacion of som truth remaining in their mad heades, that is to wytte that out of the churche there can none helth be had, they wander about seekyng the churche eche a sundry way, and eche alway leauing the churche vpon his backe as they went out at seuerall doores, the farther euer that eche of theym gothe foreward, the farther euer eche of them goth from her. And they be not onelye fallen in thys fransye that they go farther and farther from her to seeke her, but whyche is the most madnesse that can fall in a frantik head, they confesse euerychone that they go seeke her, whom if they might hap to fynde, they coulde not yet tell whyther they had founde her or not. For they confesse al the mainy that the church which they seeke is and alwaye shal be, vnknowen. And yet do they for all that of their farther folye, deuise eche of them tokens whereby she myght be knowen, and say stil for all that that She can neuer be but secrete in this world wher thei seke her, and euer more stil vnknowen. Wherfore good christen readers, lettyng those fonde felowes alone, and leauyng them seekyng the churche, whych whyle they go fromwarde, til thei turne backe againe they shall neuer fynde: we shal for an ende of all this whole matter nowe in this last booke, shortely gather together and in a briefe summe, ponder & consider the substaunce of such things as haue at length ben sayd in these eight bookes of this whole woorke before. Of al which I wyl in thys one booke bryng you foorth, but the truthes touching the proofe of the comen knowen catholyke church to be the very churche of Christe in earth, that in such wyse hath and euer more shal haue the true doctrine in her, that she shal neuer be suffered of God to fal in any dampnable errour. These proues wyl I shortly gather you to- gether, ws very litle reasoning therupon, except the fewer thinges, for as much as ys most part shall be suche things as already be de- bated, argued & proued in mine eight former bookes of this woorke, Where in I haue confuted the contrarye folies of Tindall and frere Barns, which bokes if they can betwene them bothe well answere and auoyde, than that thing ones done, they shal haue answered the great part of ys I shal shewe you here. How be it some thinges yet shal I shew you good readers in thys laste booke besyde, that shal haue such vygour and strength therin, that though they had (which I wotte well they neuer shal) wel and sufficiently auoyded al that I haue answered them in al my former eighte bookes, yet shall the rest of those reasons and authorities that I shall in thys last boke bryng you, clearelye confute al that euer they haue wrytten in the matter for theyr partes both, and clerely proue you mine. Fyrste good readers it shall be necessarye for the better perceiuing, that we consider by what meane and what wise we come to this question of the church. For when ye see for what cause these here- tikes bryng in question and in doute, thys questionlesse and cleare vndowted churche, than shall ye thereby see a special lyght to put awaie the darknesse ws, in whych they would fayne walke, and to perceiue theyr leygier demaine, wyth which they would iugle forth their falshood and shift the trouth asyde. Ye wotte well fyrste (good readers,) that all the varyaunce be- twene theym and vs, ryseth vpon the suretye of suche thinges as are to be belieued vppon the losse of saluacion. In these thinges both they and we be wel agreed, that reason hath no ful and perfitte instruccion wythout help of re[Fiv]uelacion. For not onely in thinges onelye to be belieued, but in many thynges also that are to bee done or lefte vndone, for anye thing that reason can tell either them or vs, wee be fayne to seeke the certaintie of reuela- cion. Now they and we be bothe I suppose agreed, that reuelacion is in generall, the shewing of a thing by God vnto hys creature, eyther immediatelye or by a meane, in some such wyse that the same creature by his onely naturall powers, should either not at all, or not so fullye wyth- out that shewyng haue attayned the perceiuing therof But now begynne they and we to varye vpon the meanes of reuelacion. For we saye that God hath made his reuelacions to hys churche, partelye by wryting, partely wythout, and that in those twoo maners the reuelacions of God styl abyde and continue in his churche, in scrypture and tradicions delyuered by theuangelistes and apostles of Christ vnto the churche, and that ouer that, Christe hymselfe and hys holye spyryte, do stil by secrete inspiracion, reuele & open vnto his churche, euerye necessarye truth, that he wyl haue his churche farther know and bounden to belieue. But of thys saye they the contrarye. For they saye that God albeit that vnto the church of Christ he dyd geue all hys reuelacions without wrytinge, and not one by writing (for the true exposicions of the olde scripture by him taughte and before not perceiued, he gaue his church in the beginning without writinge) yet they sai that the euaungelistes and apostles did wryte all those thinges, as farforthe as shoulde be necessary for saluacion, so that the corps of scripture being fynished in the apostles daies, our Lord neuer gaue anye necessarye reuelacyon synce, nor neuer wyl agayne whyle the world shall stand. And this they saye ws out any proofe, and byd vs be bold vpon their bare worde to belieue theym. But God they wyll in no wise that any man shall belieue wythout wrytinge. But this foly of theyrs I haue fullye confuted, bothe in diuers other partes of this worke, and specially in the laste chapiter of my third booke. But than go we farther wyth them, and sythe they wyl belieue but the scripture, we tell them that there arise many doutes vpon the scripture. And we aske them how we shal be sure of the true vnder- standing of the scripture, concerning such doutes as ryse vpon any necessary pointes. For of such pointes great doutes there aryse many. In this question they be loth to come nere the poynt. For first they tel vs that there bee no suche doutes, but that all thynge is in the scripture as playne as a packe staffe. For they saye that t e s no diffycultye nor hardnesse appearing thereuppon, but that by conferring and comparinge one place wyth an other, euery manne maye fynde out the trouthe well inoughe. Than tell we theym that though they sayde trouthe that euerye man myghte by suche collacion of euerye place wyth other fynde out the trouthe, yet were it not plaine for euery man, nor yet plaine for any man, but for him that coulde so do. And yet not for him neither fullye so playne as a packe staffe, sythe it wyll make some mannes handes rough with tourning the booke so often to and fro, before he trye oute euerye suche trouthe on that fashion. Also we shewe theym, that whan of euery man that haue so turned the booke to seeke for it, some haue taken & vnderstanden the scrip- ture one way, and som tourning the same booke and searching therefore also, haue taken and vnderstanden it an other waye. Nowe ryseth the dout for him that hath not turned it hymselfe, nor can not so good skil thereof, by what meane he maye be sure that he mysse take not the trouth, yea and also by what meane eche of the tother also that hath so tourned the booke hymself, maye be sure that him- selfe be not deceyued, as well as he weneth the tother is that taketh it contrarye to hys mynde, namelye whyle he seeth that among the other that thinke him deceiued, ther are men that haue witte and learning as he hath, and haue taken labour about it as hymselfe hathe done. Then adde we to thys, that the booke of scripture hath such things in it written by Saynte Paule, as be confessed harde by Saynte Peter, and therefore harde woulde it bee to make therein all maner thynge so lighte. We laye also that the scrypture is in Apocalyppes called the booke clapsed with seuen clapses, which the lambe shetteth, and then dothe no man open it, and the lambe openeth it, and then doth no man shytte it. But when we tel them this, then glad be they. For then they thinke them selfe [Fi] at home, and say that we say truth therin, and that of trouth no man can teach it but God himselfe. And then they help vs forth therwith, rehersing the prophecy of Esay recited by our sauiour in the gospel of Iohn, that al men shalbe taught of God, and that therfore to whom soeuer God wil open the scripture, he shal vnderstand it, and they that he wyll not open it to, they shall reade it and vnderstand it not, but hearing it, thei shal not heare it. And of these two sortes the tone is (saye they) the nomber of hys electes, and the tother ye nomber of reprobates. For hys electes he wyll teache they say, because he hathe chosen theym, and the tother he wyll not, because he woulde not choose them. Nowe when they tel vs this tale, and that wee see that it were a longe tale, a straunge, and a darke, to fall in dispicions vpon Gods eleccion, prescience, predestinacion, and eternall sentence of repro- bacion: we spare and forbeare those matters, and bring them a litle into the light out of that depe darkenes in which they woulde faine walke. And wee aske them therfore whither not withstandyng all this teaching that God teacheth hys electes himselfe, whither he do not I say commaund al folke elect or not elect, to come to baptisme and to belief, & learne the same, either by declaracion of scripture or other wise of mens mouthes, such as himself by a certaine order & fourme fro time to time appointeth for to teach them? For did he not send his apostles & his disciples to teache and preache? And dyd he not bid saint Peter fede his shepe? And did he not saye he that heareth you heareth me, & he that despiseth you, despiseth me? To this though they be loth, yet be they fayne to come & agree. Well say we then, whosoeuer so doth & lyueth well therewith, shal for al this bablyng be saued, and shalbe an elect but if hymselfe be the lette. For no man shall be reprobate and dampned without his own defaut what so euer they say. Then aske we them farther, whyther Christ ment al this, but for the apostles time alone, or elles to endure after for euer, that men should beside the inwarde teachynge of God, be taughte euer out- wardly one man of a nother. This conclusion they graunt also, not onely for ye necessity that reason & scripture driueth & forceth them so to doe, but also for that they must els graunt that there were no cause why they should preach themselfe, & preach they wil themseffe to dy therfore. Then aske we them, whyther that company which come together to learn and to teache the right faithe, and to liue in baptisme after the profession of Christes faith & doctrine of liuing truely taught and lerned, haue the assistence of Christ and his holy spirit therein or not, & whither of that companye, or at the leaste of some part of that company, these words of Christ be alway verified: I wyll not leaue you fatherlesse but I wil send you an other comforter that shal teache you al thing, and lead you into al truth, and I my selfe am with you all dayes vnto the ende of the world. To this in conclusion they consent also. Then say we farther, that for as muche as they with whom Christe is perpetually assistent, and whom lie leadeth into al truth, be they that haue the surety of doctrine, therfore of them it is surety to learne, as wel the necessary vnderstanding of scripture as al other necessarye lessons besyde, if any thing be necessary beside scripture. To this they be also as farre as I perceiue driuen in conclusion to condescende. Then say we farther, that it foloweth al so thereupon that of them also that haue that perpetual assistence of Christe and his holy spirite, we must learne thys also, and haue this dout of them soyled, & belieue them therin, that is to wit, whither there be besyde the scrypture anye necessary thinge to be learned. For they wyth whom Christ and his holy spirit is euer more assistent to leade them into euery necessary truth, they I say can not dampnably erre in that point, but it must nedes be that if thei think ther be things necessary to be belieued beside the scripture, then so there be in dede. And in thys poynte oure aduersaries wyll agree with vs I thinke. For yet in al thys way they may wene they walke saufe inough. Then discend we somewhat lower, and aske them whither thei with whom Christ hath promised to be assistent here in earth vnto the worldes ende, & with his holy spirit to lead them into al truth, be any one particular person alone, or a congregacion & company. To thys yet because Christe abydeth here in earth with no one man perpetuallye tyll the worldes ende, because no man abideth here so long himselfe, our aduersaries will agree that he speaketh it of a congregacion. And finally they wyl agree that the same congre- gacion in [Fiv] which that assistence is, and by that assistence, that faithful true perfit doctrine by the inspiracion of the spirit, is the very church of Christ, and that al the particuler partes thereof as wel men & women as the particular companies, make one whole vni- uersal churche of Christe thorow the whole world. This wyl thei not let to agree, for yet they maye wade on well inoughe. But then in this we vari with al our aduersaries, that all they saye that thys church is a companye of men & women vnknowen, which vnknowen church diuers of them frameth of diuers fashions, some making it of metely good, some of very good, some of so good as ther be no suche, and some of such as be (they saye) both good and bad al at ones. And some one man maketh it of mo fashions then one, as Tindal doth and Barns bothe. But in that one pointe for al that agree they al together, that they would euerychone proue the true church vnknowen. For if the churche be knowen, then bee these folke knowen al for heretikes. And we on the tother syde sai, that the very true church is knowen, and that it is finally without any farther sutteltye this comon knowen catholike church of al christen people, abiding in the olde so long continuing stocke, agreeing together in faith & doctrine, al be it ye liuyng of the greate multitude be farre vnlyke the perfeccion of their profession. Nowe good christen readers in conclusion it appeareth plainelye betwene them and vs, that a very church of Christ there is, and euer must be in earthe, tyll Christ come againe vnto iudgement and ende al this worlde. And it is plaine also, that the churche which thei & we both do seke in this question, is not the church in heauen toward which we be walking, but the church in earth in which we be walking. And this is a clere thing also, that albeit men may speake of diuers churches, as of a church of good men, a churche of euyl men, a church of both, a churche of electes into baptisme, a churche of eternal electes, a church of repentauntes, a churche of impenytentes, a churche of those that stand for the while in the state of grace, a churche of those that are predestinate vnto eternal glory, yet bi how manye maner of meanes so euer a man may vse that word churcll, plaine it is ys the church which is the very churche of Christ here in earthe, is for all ys but one church, though the same haue as in dede it hath, many particular partes, whereof for the conuenyence and agreement with the whole church, euerye one company is called a churche. But the whole very church which is therfore called the catholike church, that is to wyt the vniuersal church, this can be but one. Finally it appeareth plain also, that the cause for whiche they and wee bothe seeke out the very church, is because we might attaine thereby the suretye of the very truth in doctrine, be it onely bi the true vnderstandinge of the scripture, or by ys scripture & other reuelacions beside. Now these thinges thus betwene them and vs agreed, as I thynke they needes must, and in effect they do consent and agree with vs, let vs go farther and consider the point that standeth betwene vs in variaunce, whych is in effect but whyther the verye church of Christe that we both seeke for, be this common knowen catholike church of ours, or som vnknowen church of theirs. In which thing I wyl shew you first that it must nedes be a knowen churche and none vnknowen. Which one point proued alone, quyte ouerthroweth al them. Secondlye I wyll proue you, that the very churche is thys knowen catholike church of ours. Thyrdly wyll I shewe you, that yf it be an vnknowen church, yet is it a part of this knowen church, and none vnknowen church of any of al theirs. Fourthly wyl I shewe you, by what markes and tokens parte of theyr owne deuising, part other beside, that euerye man may plainely perceiue & se, that the very church of Christ here in earth, neither is nor can bee no maner churche of theirs, nor fynallye none other but this comon knowen catholyke church, whiche all they refuse. Let vs go now to the first poynt, that is to proue you that the very churche of Christ in earth, is & must nedes be a knowen church, and no church vnknowen. churche should be knowen, God which can make a churche as wel as anye of you, hathe of lykelyhood made hys very churche, a churche alreadye knowen. And yf it bee not good nor necessarye that hys verye churche should be knowen, but that god hath hymselfe for that cause made it vnknowen, and such also as al you sai that it can not be knowen: wherefore are all you so mad to breake your fonde feable braines about it, against your own purpose, to make it apere & be knowen? what shal they say to this trowe we? In good [Fiv] faithe I can not tell, sauing that to saue them self, thei wil I wene assay to steale away in the darke, with som such ridels as Tindal doth, and like as he wyndeth out with sinning and yet not sinnyng, & errour and yet none errour, so wyl they come at laste with knowen and yet not knowen, and church and yet not church, and Christ and yet not Christ, and God and yet not God to. An other reason is this, the comon articles of the faithe be re- quisite to be had of euery man, before he meddle with the reading of the scripture. For if he shall without knowledge had of them before, and without firme credence giuen to them before, go seke them out in the scripture, he shal both be long ere he get them, and shal also stand in great peryl to fal into the contrary heresies, as other heretiks haue done before. But than those articles must som man teach them, or giue them the Crede wherin they be contriued. Which who so do, if they belieue him as a priuate persone, they can giue him but slyghte credence. Wherfore his credence dependeth vpon that that he is one of the church, and teacheth and giueth that the whole churche hath receiued of God, and beleueth and deliuereth to be beliued. But he that teacheth these artycles, or delyuereth thys Creede, can not be knowen as a member, or a minister of a church vnknowen, nor they that referre all vnto the scripture, can not say that any man can before the scripture wel knowen and vnderstanden by him, know what the churche vnknowen belieueth, ergo the credence of him that shuld teach those articles or deliuer the Creede, dependeth vppon a knowen churche. And no churche can haue credence in matters of true faythe, but the veri true church, ergo a knowen church is the very true churche, and than is the very true church a knowen church. Moreouer it is now agreed at the last by Tindal, and none of al these heretiks do denye it, but that the perpetuall vyrginitie of oure Ladye is an vndoutable truth, & to be belieued when it is taught though he mighte be saued by the beliefe of other articles if he had neuer happed to heare woorde of thys. This doe these folke agree, which yet say the veri churche is vnknowen. But than I aske them wherfore they thinke them selfe bounden to belieue, he can not saye by the scrypture. For ys scripture doth not proue it. And that is so farforth true, that saynte Hierom, which for that article argueth against Heluidius the heretik, doth not proue, nor so muche as goeth aboute to proue it by any one worde of scripture, but onelye proueth Heluidius a lyar, in that he sayde that the scripture sayd the contrarye. Nowe sythe they belieue that article not for ys scripture: wherfore thinke thei them selfe bounden to beleue it? Not for any one mans woorde I suppose, specially sithe no one man that sayth it, speaketh of any reuelacion that himself hath had of it. Ther is no dout, but the cause of the bonde thei must lay to be the bond whereby we be bounden to giue credence to the whole church. And this church can be none vnknowen church. For we can not know what the vnknowen churche belieueth, ergo the churche that they belieue therein, and which they thinke them selfe bounden to belyeue therein, is a knowen churche. But they wyll thinke themselfe bounden to belieue no church but the verye true churche, ergo by their owne reason, the very true churche is a knowen churche. If they wyl answer and saye, that by the scripture they knowe what the vnknowen church beleueth, for thei know that they belieue al the same things that they see them selfe be by the scrip- ture to be belieued. To this answer ye wot wel, that this obieccion of the perpetual vyrginitie of our blessed Lady, is a playne stoppe, sythe they can not be sure by the scripture, that the vnknowen church belyueth that article that they fynde not surely taught in the scrip- ture. Also yfit were so, that they niight here after finde in ys scripture such things as may clerelye proue the article, as peraduenture they may, for many misteries are there in the scrypture mo then are yet peraduenture vnderstanden, and also me seemeth that it may be metely well proued by the plaine scripture in dede, by suche a meane as these men I wene wyll not speake it, for it appeareth as I haue declared in my dialogue, ys our Lady had vowed perpetual chastitye, and then considerynge that she dyd neuer actuallye synne, which she should haue done if she hadde broken her vowe, whereof wee fynde no dyspensacion nor no sufficient proofe of the breach therof, these things set together seme to proue meetelye well the perpetuitie of her virginitie. But yet sythe no proofe of scrypture can serue them by Luthers rule, but very [Fi] plaine, open, and euydent, they wyll neuer proue this point by scripture, & also not so muche as speake thereof, because freres that breake their vowes and wed nunnes, haue no list to be acknowen that our Lady did vowe chastity. And of very trouth, both in this point & many other necessary truthes, though they be spoken of in scripture, and some insinuacion made of them, & some lyght geuen towarde them: yet many circum- staunces considered, it shal wel appeare that the fulnesse of the per- suasyon and sure beliefe groweth, by the secrete reuelacion inspyred by the spirite of God into his whole church, and wyth credence gyuinge thereto, inspyred after into euerye manne that commeth thereto and learneth thereof, and that of none but of a knowen churche. But as nowe I was about to saye, yf these folke wil (as I wote Wel they wyll not) saye hereafter in time to come, that this article is proued by scripture, and therefore they perceiue by the scripture what theyr vnknowen church belieueth therein: this wil nothing hurt myne argument. For yet shal they be driuen for al that, to graunt that they could not before lay that cause of theyr beliefe, al the while that themself perceiued it not proued by scripture, which hath bene yet euer hitherto, as ye plainely perceiue by them. And so shal they be faine at the least wise hitherto though they woulde after chaunge, to confesse yet for al this while that they haue in thys article belieued some knowen church, and consequently shal they therby be driuen to graunt that the very church of Christ hathe hitherto bene openly knowen. Another reason that the very church must be a knowen churche is thys. God hath euer from the begynnyng had hys churche a knowen churche, in the place where he woulde haue it. For fyrste the churche was increate, that is to wyt the church or congregacion of the thre eternal persons, of which eche knew other. Second was his churche of the whole nomber of angels, a knowen church eche to other, al good at the firste. And when Lucifer wyth hys felowes offended so highly in pryde, that they woulde out of that church, as Luther and his felowes by pride are gone out of this church: yet after their sinne conceiued till the vengeaunce taken, they wer stil in one church were the time longe or shorte. And then was ther as it semeth in heauen, one knowen churche for the while of both good and bad together, as ther is now in this church. But as soone as God had expelled those heretikes and scismatikes out of heauen, as the churche hathe expelled these heretikes and scisma- tikes here, as it alway doth expel and put out all such other, when their obstinate & vncurable malice is perceiued: then remained ther in heauen a knowen churche of onelye good, and wyth Luclfer in hel a knowen onely churche of onely nought, and eche of these churches for euer. Now if any man wil here obiect and argue that the euil angels taried not in heauen at al, but that in the turnyng to them selfe or to Lucifer, was in it selfe a tourning from God, and a leesinge of their state, and no time of taryenge betwene their synne and their exposi- cion, but that as receiuing of synne is expelling of grace, so was in them the conceiuing of pride the losse of heauen: I wyll not at thys tyme prolonge thys matter with that dispicions, whiche if euer we fal to, thei shal peraduenture then finde that I might defende this wel inoughe. And if I coulde not, they shall peraduenture finde farther, not so great chaunge in the matter for my principal purpose, that I should greatly neede. And therfore for the while without anye more reasoning, I saye yet agayne, that sythe it appeareth by scripture, that they were expelled and putte out of heauen and throwen down thence, and not but for theyr synne, and therfore not before their synne but after: they taryed there tyll they were putte thence, and so were there that hyle bothe good and badde together. Moreouer, God beganne his church of mankinde, a knowen churche in paradise. And when man and woman had offended both, both I saye in breache of Gods commaundement, but not both against faith and beliefe of Gods words, for Adam was not deceiued as Saynte Paule saith: God punished it & draue it thence into earth, and there made it and kept it a knowen church of folke, some time good and sometime some good and some bad. For out of this churche when God expelled Cain & his generacion, yet kept he the knowen church of the good & faithful generacions knowen. And after when he washed away ys whole people of the earth, he reserued in the ship of Noe the knowen church of a fewe folke, & yet among these few not alway good. [Fiv] After kept he and contynued his knowen churche of faythefull generacyons to Abraham, and in Abraham & hys succession & after called that knowen church in Egipt, though it were then waxen very weake in faith wyth the felowship of idolaters and subieccion vnto faithlesse folke. And that knowen churche he called and brought thence into deserte vnder Moises and Aaron, & in deserte kept it a knowen church. And when thei waxed idolaters, heretikes, and scismatykes, he punished them and deuided comonly the fauty from the flocke, and either killed them, or bi the death of part of them, chaunged and amended the remanaunt. After that he continued his knowen church vnder iudges, priests, prophets, and kings, in the twelue tribes of Israel, til the dayes of Roboam the sonne of kynge Salamon. After that, when the ten trybes for anger swarued and departed from theyr owne naturall lyege Lorde vnto Heroboam: then re- mayned as saynte Cypriane saythe, the verye churche in Iudea, and in these two knowen tribes he kept his knowen churche. Very trouth it is, that lytle and lytle the same knowen churche decaied, and waxed weake in faith, and new noughtye doctrine against Christes comynge was sprongen vp therin, and the weede beganne to ouer grow the corne. But yet for al that vntil his owne comynge, there he kepte hys knowen churche that was then called the synagoge of Moyses, and so was that his knowen church his churche, and the trouth of doctryne so preserued therein, that in it was the trouthe, and many good faythfull folke therein, and onelye in it was the trouth as manye false as were therein, as oure sauioure wytnesseth hymselfe vnto the woman of Samarye, sayeng: you worshyppe ye wotte nere what, but we worshyppe that wee knowe, for healthe is of Iudea. Now when that in the synagoge the knowen church of God, there was growen so greate confusyon, ys al be it ther were many good faithfull folke therin, yet by the meane of many euyll maisters abydyng styll amonge the good, manye lighte people beganne to be mysse ledde: God of his goodnes not wylling to suffer the people to fall in perplexitye, but that they should easely and readelye bee sure of the true doctrine, came hymselfe downe, the second person of the trinytye egal wyth either of the twayne, and by the sending of the father, and the working of the holye ghoste, and yet as well the sending as the working, the deede of all three, became incarnate, and tooke fleshe in the pure wombe of oure blessed lady, & being in her holy bely very flesh, very soule, and very God, in one perfite person of our sauiour Christe God and man together, was of her born in Bethlem without paine, as he was begotten withoute fleshlye pleasure. And after he gathereth his apostles and his other disciples, and began his owne new church of Iewes and Gentyls bothe, and was hymselfe the heade corner stone whyche the Iewes reproued and reiected, and woulde not be buylded vpon it, and yet was he layed for al that for he very angle & corner stone, vpon which bothe the side walles of the Iewes and of the Painims were ioyned in one together, as it was by Dauid prophecyed. The stone which they ys wer in building haue reproued, here is it made for ys hed of ys angle. Here began he his churche a knowen church, and a notable and well knowen. Also of that same knowen church so begon, ther hath bi succession continued a church this.xv. hundred yere wel knowen. Finallye after all this worlde ended, when Christ shall deliuer the kyngdom to his father, than shall God haue his vniuersal church a knowen church for euer. Wherfore syth God hath had from the beginning, and from before al beginninge, and shall haue in the ende also to last withoute end, his church euer knowen in heauen, and hath hymselfe both at the first making and at eueri chaunge synce, made his church in earth a churche well knowen also: what cause haue these folke now to say that he wyl haue his church in earth vnknowen. Moreouer, the head of the church is, & from ys beginning hath ben a knowen head. And as ys man hath ben somtime a good man & sometyme an euyl, & yet for al that as wel the bad as the good, hath stil ben head of the church and a knowen heade: what cause haue they to say that any of the members maye not be a member of the churche, thoughe he be an euil man? but woulde make as though God hadde sette a knowen heade vnto an vnknowen bodye, and made a shepeherd vpon suche a flocke of sheepe, as he could not wytte which they were. To this argument they wil giue two solucions. One, by denyenge that God [Fi] hathe made ouer hys church euer more a knowen head. And an other aunswer wyll be, that the knowen head is heade, but vpon the knowen churche, and that the vnknowen church which is the very church, hath an vnknowen head, which is they wilsay none but Christ. To their first answer, when we repli that passing ouer al the tyme from Adam to Christ, Christ was himselfe a knowen head vpon his church of his twelue apostles, and vppon all his disciples that he tooke into him both the good and ys bad, and than he appointed sainte Peter for his successour, and head and chiefe shepherde to feede and gouerne hys whole flocke after his death, and so foorthe the successors of him euer after: to this they wyl graunt that Christ was head of his very church, that is to wyt wyl they say of the vnknowen churche, and yet hys knowen churche, that is to wytte, the churche that was knowen to hym, for he alwaye knewe who were his. And of the same vnknowen church he is ye head styl. And here wyll they fall from reasoning into preachinge, and wyth a gaye glorious processe wyll they describe vs the holynesse of that both knowen & vnknowen head, and the holynes of ys both knowen and vnknowen body, the heade knowen to the body by hys voyce, and ys body knowen to that head by his fayth. And than as they wyl first fal from prouing to preaching, so wyl they soone after fal fro preaching into theyr vnreasonable raylyng, againste all the knowen church and al the knowen heades thereof from Christes dayes to theyr owne. And in all that railing wil they forget ye rybauldous heades of theyr owne churches, the freres that runne in apostasy & make whores of nunnes, and runne wil they forth al against ours. And first wyl they fal from saint Peter, & refuse hym for head of the church, & so forthe downe all the re- manaunt of his successours by rowe. But we shal not neede to dispute thys poynt with them for thus farre forth as yet. For if Christ dyd not appoint saynt Peter for the chiefe shepherd ouer al his flocke, yet can they not say nay, but that yet at the least he appointed saint Peter with other, and that they were all knowen heades. And they dyd also substytute other whyche were knowen heades also. And euer after by succession knowen heades to succede, of suche as bi the blessed sacrament of holye orders were by special consecracion, as by a certain spirituall genera- cion borne enherytable to those roumes. Thys poynte (make these heretikes at the sacrament of order neuer so manye mockes, for hatred that they beare to all good order, and the great hunger ys they haue to brynge all out of order) yet that thys is the verye order, the plaine scrypture proueth them. And that thys hathe euer synce Christes owne daye bene the contynuall vsed order, as shamelesse as they be they can not for shame say naye. Than conclude I yet again as I beganne, that sythe God dydde ordayne knowen shepheardes vppon hys flocke, that is to wytte vppon his churche, hys flocke muste bee a knowen flocke and a knowen churche. For he would as well that the shepehearde shoulde knowe hys flocke, as that the flocke shoulde knowe theyr shepe- hearde. Now after theyr fyrst answer thus auoyded, they wyll come in wyth the seconde, and saye that Christe dydde ordayne those knowen shepeheardes for the knowen flocke, that is to wytte the knowen churche whiche they denye not to be a churche. But they denye it to bee the church, that is to wyt the very churche. For that is (wyll they say) the secret vnknowen church, wherof only Christ is head, and no man vnder him but himselfe, and whych churche is therefore fre & subiect vnto none other, neytller lawe nor creature, neither in earthe, hell, nor heauen, but they be Gods good holy children liuing in the lawe of the spirit and theuangelical freedome to do what they lyst, for they can list no thing but as the spirit leadeth them. And therefore hathe not al the world any power to ake ani law to stop them of theyr holy high wai, no not so muche as the breadthe of one here. To this aunswer wyll we aske them, whether the flocke of sheepe whereupon Christe dydde sette the knowen shepeheardes, was hys flocke and hys church or not. This can they not denye. For he did not sette shepeheardes vppon the dyuels flocke, but would hys shepeherdes should get them from the infydels that wer the diuels flocke, and helpe to make them ones of hys flocke, and then feede them and gouern them, and leade them foorth wyth faithe and good workes in the waye of life, with the foode of Gods worde suche as the spirite hadde taught them, were it in writinge or vnwritten. [Fiv] For as for such as would not come into that flocke, saint Paul said, of these that be without what haue wee to doe what sinful life they liue. So that these men ye see maye not denye, but that the flocke whereupon our sauiour did set the knowen shepheardes were his flocke. For if they wil sticke vpon the denieng therof, and wil not care for saint Paul: than shal at the lestwise our sauiour him selfe ouerthrow such Antichristes wyth the spirite of his own holy mouth, with which he said vnto saint Peter, Peter if thou loue me feede thou my sheepe. Lo Christ called the flocke vpon whyche he made sainte Peter shepeherde, not the shepe of any other but his owne. Now sithe it can not than be deuysed by these folke, but that the churche, that is to say the flocke vpon which our sauiour did set those knowen shepherds, was his flocke that is to say his churche: we must aske these folke that are heretykes and enemies to the knowen church whether Christ haue of his ani mo churches in earth, then one? If they saye ye, than go they further then euer they went before. For euer hytherto they haue sayde that this word church is diuersely taken, and that the name of churche is vsed in scripture, sometime for the comon knowen multitude of good and bad both to gether, as it is sometime for the house to which they resort, and as it is sometime for euery particular church of the same. Yet haue they euer sayde that Christes very churche, neyther is nor neuer was at anye tyme nor at any tyme should be but one, whyche was they alwaye sayde the secrete vnknowen sorte of onely holye menne. In thys they all haue euer hytherto agreed, though they all haue eche varyed from other in the farther vnderstandyng of those holy folke, sithe some call theym onely electes and some oneli such as are good at the time, and so forth some other in theyr other fashion. Also for this haue they layed euer against vs, ys the church of Christ coulde not be knowen, but must onelye be beleued, and haue alwai laied for their part the wordes of the Crede, <2sanctam ecclesiam >2 <2catholicam,>2 of which we sing at the masse also <2vnam sanctam & aposto->2 <2licam ecclesiam,>2 so that except these geese go from theyr olde flock and giue ouer all theyr olde gagelynge, yea and all the truthe to, they must needes agree that Christe neither hathe nor neuer hadde nor shall haue, but one churche in earthe. Then if they wil confesse as of truthe they must, that Christes churche can be but one, and I haue alredy proued you, that the knowen flocke ouer whyche he ordained knowen shepherdes be his churche: it foloweth of necessitye not onelye that his churche in earthe is a knowen church, but also sithe he hath in earth no mo churches but one, it foloweth I saye farther that hys churche canne be none vnknowen. Now if they would auoyde this conclusion with some fond shyft, and saye ys Christ hath in earth mo churches of his owne than one, but he hath in earthe no mo very churches of his owne but one, & say therfore that the knowen catholyke church is hys church, but yet for al that it is not hys very churche, for hys verye churche that is but one, is onelye his secrete church vnknowen: whan thei shal come to this shyft betwene hys churche and his very church, as though all were not one an horse, and a verye horse, nor an asse and a very asse, we shall tell hym playne againe that he that would shake the Water from hys fether wyth suche a shift, were euen a goose & a verye goose. For if they wyl say that Christ hathe here two or three catholyke or vniuersal churches of his owne (for of hys vniuersal church speake we ye wote well, & not of any particular church, but as a member of the whole) the verye name of vnyuersall, must needes proue hym a foole. For out of his vniuersall churche what churche of hys can there be? And yet if we woulde wynke at that, and suffer theym to say that Christ hath two catholyke churches, that is to wyt twoo vniuersall churches, the tone holye, the tother vnholye, and that of those twoo bothe be hys, but the holye catholyke churche is hys verye churche vnknowen, and the vnholye catholyque churche is hys churche also, but not his verye churche, and therefore it is knowen, and that the woordes of the Crede one holye catholyque churche, speaketh of the verye churche of Christe, that is holye and vnknowen, and that is onelye the churche of Christ that can not erre. Remember by the waye (good readers) that agaynste thys follye standeth styll the fyrste reason that I began wyth, of the surety of doctryne, whyche of thys holy catholyke vnknowen churche can not be had. But now agaynst that vnreasonable [Fi] reason of theyrs, of theyr two catholyke churches of Christ, the tone holy, the tother vnholy, & the holy is the very churche and vnknowen: I lay them Saynte Paule, which writeth to knowen churches, and calleth them holy and faith- ful and callers vppon the name of God, as he doth the church of the Romaines and the Corinthies, the Galathiens, the Ephesians, the Collocenses, and yet in the same sanctified holy faithful churches, hndeth he manye vnsaintlye vices, as I haue partlye before declared in the confutacion of frere Barns vnknowen holy church, whereby it appeareth ys knowen particular churches, the partes of the catholyke or vniuersal knowen churche, be those that are holy, and theri foloweth it that the whole knowen catholik or vniuersall churche ys is made of those partes, is the church that is holi, though there be members vnholy therin, as ther must needes be when there be members vnholye in the particular churches that are the partes thereof, and yet doe those vnholy members no more let the whole vniuersal church to be called holy, then the vnholy members being in that part thereof that was the churche of the Romaines, or the Corinthies, or the Galathies, or the Ephesians, or the Thessalonicen- ses, letted saint Paule to call these particular churches holy. Moreouer good christen readers, ye perceiue veri wel, that al thei do affirme that the catholike holy churche, whyche onely church they say is Christes verye church, is such a spirituall thing of hyS nature, that neither that church nor ani member thereof, can while it is in thys world be knowen to any other member of the same churche. Thys saythe frere Barns, this saith Tyndall, thys saythe frere Huskyn, and this saithe leude Luther to, so farforth that he saithe that yf saint Peter were a lyue againe, no man could know whither he wer of ys church or not, because that thoughe it were so that we coulde know that he wer good, yet wee shoulde not for all that knowe whyther he shoulde perseuer and abyde styll good or no. Now say I that of the very church of Christ in earth, all the partes must be of one nature, and that as all the partes & members therof must be by these men holy, so must by these men al the partes and members therof, be euer in thys worlde vnknowen to euery other member ys is in earth a liuing member of ys same church, & then that ofthe parts and members, the head is not onelye among all other one, but also aboue al other the chiefe. Thys knoweth eueri man. Wherupon it foloweth I say, that either had our sauioure Christ none holy church in earthe here in his owne time while he liued here, or els that hymselfe was neyther head nor member therof, or that the leste wyse he was to none of hys verye churche eyther head or member knowen. Now that Christ in his tyme had no church in earth, wer a mad thing to sai. And that himselfe was not heade of hys owne church, were more then madde to say. And that he was vnknowen, what that were to say I shall not neede to tell them, but let sainte Austyne say. For he saith, that al that so say be accursed, and then saith a lytle farther beside that concludeth al this whole matter. For thys is hys sayenge lo, that lyke as he is accursed that saithe Christe was not knowen, so is he accursed that saythe the church is not knowen. And this haue I good readers proued againe, ys the veri catholike true church of Christ here in earth, must be a church knowen and no churche vnknowen. Consider now good reders, that they haue no colour to beare theyr wyly foolishe inuencion in diuysing the churche to be vnknowen, lest the authoriti of the knowen church should dampne theyr heresies, sauing that they take a colour, bi reason that euyl men may seme to be excluded from God, and to be no parte of his mistical bodi. And then if that wer so, the onely good men must be the church, and sith we can not know which be thei, the church must nedes be vn- knowen. But now good readers, if it appeare plaine vnto you by the very scripture it selfe, that the church of Christ is ys number of both good and bad together, and that euyl men thoughe they be euyll, be yet stil in the catholike church, as longe as they abide in the catholyke churche, not being put out for any obstinate malice: if thys I say by plaine scripture appeare, then is al the wylye folye of these heretikes auoyded. Nowe is thys poynte suche, as there is nothynge in the scrypture neyther more often nor more euydent, then that the churche is here in earth the number not of onelye good, but of good and bad together, If we should begynne in the old testament ws the arke of Noe & the sinagoge, [Fiv] which was the figure of Christes churche: euery man knoweth that looketh in the scripture, that neither they that wer in Noes ship, nor they that god gaue the law vnto, and to whom he made his promises and gaue his assistence, were all continually good, but were both good & badde together. And yet continuallye to Christes tyme, he gaue hys continuall assistence vnto them, as appeareth by al the whole corps of scripture, wherin we see the myracles that God wrought for theym, and the prophetes that he sent to them. And finally vnto them did he kepe the great promise, of the sendyng of our sauiour Christ, of whom Moyses prophecied, saieng: a prophet of your nacion & of your brethren like vnto me, shal your Lord god suscitate and reyse vp for you, hym shal you heare. &c. But I neither wil for so plain a matter ouerburdein the reader in this boke, with the more manyfold then necessary rehersyng of euerye place, that thorowe the olde testament proueth thys matter, nor also of the newe testament neyther, but rather for a sample, wil of some few put you in remembraunce. What meaneth our Lord by hys parable of the .x. virgins, fyue fooles, and fyue wyse, abiding and lookyng for the spouse that should come to the mariage? Ment he not plainely the whole company present here in thys world, of whych though al bring the lampes of fayth, yet some for slouth lacke ys oile of good workes, for which their faith alone lacking the light of grace, shall finde the gate of glory shit againste them, when the spouse with the wise virgins shal be gone in? What meaneth our Lord in the selfe same chapyter of saint Mathew, by him that hyd hys talent in the ground? Meaneth he not of hym that imployeth not wel the gyftes that he geueth hym here in hys churche? Where our sauiour saithe, that at the day of iudgement he shal lay to the dampned soules the lacke of good woorkes of mercye, is it not playne that he meaneth there of them which while thei liued were of hys churche here? For of those that be not of his church but be infidels, they ws out any such discussing of their workes be dampned for their infidelity. When saynte Paule sayde vnto the orinthies, I haue wrytten vnto you in a pistell, that ye should keepe no companye wyth fornycatours, but I ment not the fornicatours of the world or couetous menne, or rauenours, or idolaters. For then (if ye should meddle wyth none of those) ye muste haue bene fayne fyrst to haue gone out of the world. But nowe haue I wrytten vnto you, that ye shal haue no medling with any suche. If he that is named a brother among you, be a fornica- tour, or couetouse, or an idolater, or euyl tounged, or dronkelew, or rauenous, wyth suche folke doe not so muche as eate. But as for theym that be without, what haue we to iudge? Be ye the iudges of them that bee wythin, for as for those that by wythout, God shall iudge. Take you awaye the euyll man from among your selfe. Here ye see playnely that saint Paule maketh a cleare dyfference betwene the fornicatours, the couetous men, rauenours, and idola- tours that be abrod in the world among Iewes and Painims and that be of the church of Christ and yet fal to the same vices stil. And when saint Paul wrytyng to the Corinthies, sheweth them of theyr euyl behauour vsed at theyr housell, in the receiuing of the blessed bodye and bloude of Christe, for whyche he sheweth them that bi the merei- ful punishment of god, many fell sycke and many dyed among them to teach them to amend their fauts, to whom did saint Paule write this? was not this wrytten vnto them that wer of the church? which albeit that they were not good nor without great euyl, yet for the whyle that they lyued here, were by communion of faith and sacra- mentes, members of Christes mistical body the churche, in whych body euery part beareth other, and the stronge supporteth and strenghteth the feabler, and ys hole the sycke, accordyng to the counsayle of saint Paule, we that are stronger must beare and sustain the infirmitie of them that are feable and sycke. Our sauiour also saith: if thy brother offende thee, thou shouldest fyrst warne hym secretely. And if that can not serue than afore wytnesse. And if he mende not therby neither, then sayth our sauioure tell the church. And if he wyll not heare the churche, than lette hym be taken as a Paynym and a Publycane. And by and by our Lorde saith, I tell you truth what so euer thing ye binde vpon earth, shall be bound in heauens, and what so euer ye loose in earth, shal bee loosed in heauens. Nowe good readers, here ye see that there be euyl men in the church, that do [Gi] such thynges as if they mende not be to be put out ofthe churche, and to bee accompted as Paynims. For here coulde be no bynding nor losing in the church, if there wer no sinne in the church. For the binding & losing is of such thinges, as our sauiour saith in the.xx. chapiter of saint Iohn: Of whome that ye shall remit, the sinnes be remitted them, and of whom ye shall retaine, the sinnes bee retayned. So that ye may se, that in the church are sinnes remitted, which could not be if there were no sinners in it. Now if these slipper serpentes wyll saye (as Tindall all ready sayth) ys thys is ment but at the first comming in of the church by penaunce and baptisme, and that after the first receyuing into ys church, they that deadly sinne againe, be not of the church till they be good agayne (as Barns sayth) or that thei neuer were of the churche, for if they had bene, they could not fall to deadly sinne (as Tindall sayth) we lay agaynst these foolishe errours the holy prophete Dauid an electe of God, and that yet after deadely sinned & yet returned to Godde agayne. We lay Manasses, which after hys great abhominable dedes, dyd penaunce and attained mercy. Thirdly we lay the blessed apostle & prince of apostles saynt Peter, whiche deadly denied his maister, at his bytter weping had hys synne forgyuen him. And as we may lay of the ensamples a great heape of them, that in Goddes church haue greuousely sinned, both in ye sinagoge and in the church of Chryst since: so may we lay you a great heape of aucthorities and playne textes of the scripture, by whych euery man may see that ys church is a congregacion of both good and bad togyther. But here wote I wel that these heretikes perceiue thys poynt so well themselfe for true, that they can not but confesse it. But what say they than thereto, wee deny not (say they) but there is a church of good and badde togither. Thys saith Tindall thys sayeth Barns, thys saye they all. Thys is so plaine that they bee all fayne to tell the same tale theymselfe. But howe doe they aunswere it thanne? They aunswere it thus. They say that this is not the church that they speake of But than we aske theim agayne the churche that they speake of or must speake of, is it any other but the church of Christ here in earth, and hath Christ any more churches here in earth than one? If he haue no more but one, as in deede he hath not, and then that ys church of good and badde togither bee Chrystes churche, than is it the church that they must speake of, or elles muste they holde their tounges. Nowe that the company of good and badde togyther is Chrystes church, appereth by all the places of scrypture alledged before, as ye may clerely perceiue if ye wel consider them and the circum- staunces. Ye shall also well see it by thys, that in manye of those places in which either our sauiour himself, or hys apostles, or the olde prophetes in the olde testament, doe speake of ys same company in which be both the good and badde, doe not let for all the badde folke that be in it, to call that same company and congregacion good and holy. For the sinagoge, our lorde him- selfe by the mouth of Moyses called holy, saying: Thou arte a people holy vnto thy lorde god. And as for the church of Christ being mengled of both good and bad, in al the parable in which he speketh of that mengling, calleth it either his flowre as S. Iohn ys Baptist calleth it in ys thirde chapter of Mathew, where saynt Iohn speaketh of Christ, saying that he hath his fanne in his hande, and shall make clene his flowre and the whete he shall gather into the garners, and the chaffe and straw he shall burne up with in- extinguible fyre. Here ye maye see good christen readers, that saint Iohn calleth ys churche that is here in earth Christes flowre, for only in the church is ys whete mengled with the strawe, and out of the churche is there no whete but strawe onely. Now in the parable of the.x. virgins ue wise and fiue folishe, and also in the parable of our sauiour in the.xiij. chapiter of saynct Mathew, where our sauiour likeneth the church vnto a net cast into the sea, that gathered both good fishe and badde, and also in the tother parable in which our sauiour lykeneth his church vnto a fielde, in which hymselfe sowed good corne and maketh good men, and the deuill doth after sow cockle or darnell and maketh euil men, as our sauiour his owne mouthe expowneth it: in al these parables our sauiour calleth his church mengled of good and badde, the kingdome of heauen, and by what more holy name can he call it? [Giv] So that thus ye may se good christen reders, that the churche mengled of both good and bad, is the holy church, except Christes church in his own dayes was not holy because of one Iudas. And surely when the church of our sauiours owne.xi]. apostles was not all good, but had a false traitour in it: that man may seme starke madde, that affirmeth now ys Christes church of so many a thousand thousand, must nedes be al pure & good. And therefore as I saye, in Christes flowre there shall euer be in thys world both corne, and chaffe, and strawe, and in Christes net in the sea of thys world there shall neuer lacke bad fishe among the good, and in Chrystes fielde here vpon earth, there shall neuer lacke cockle among the corne. And yet shal it styl be Christes holy church, & his holy fielde, so holy, that he calleth it the kingdome of heauen. For be there neuer so muche cockle in that fielde, yet doth God continually out of ys fielde with hys fanne, clense from the cockle good corne, and sendeth it pure and cleane vnto heauen, and in that fielde lyke as the deuill turneth the corne into cockle, so God turneth again much cockle into corne. And thys meruailouse straunge turning, neuer ceaseth nor neuer shall whyle thys world endureth. And therfore as holy S. Cyprian sayth, if we see cockle in the church, yet should neyther our faith nor our charytye bee letted or hyndred therby, so that because we se cockle in ys church, we would our selfe therfore go from the church. Let vs no more but labour that we may be corne our self, that whan the corne shall be layed vp in the garners of God, we may of our workes and labour receiue the frute. The apostle sayth in his pistle, ys in a great house there are not onely vessels of golde and siluer, but there are vessels also of wood of tree, and of earth, and some bee occupied in honorable businesse, and some in dishonest and vile. Let vs therefore endeuour our self, and labour in al that we may, that we may be made a vessel of golde or siluer. And so good christen readers ye see, that the church of Christ is a company mixed of good and badde, and that mixed company these heretiques cannot saye but ys it is a knowen churche. And therefore whatsoeuer they bable, it playne appereth that the churche of Chryst is a church knowen. Moreouer when thapostle wrote to put that incestuouse parson oute ofthe church, which defyled hys own fathers bed, as did uben and Absolon: oute of what church did thapostle bid them put him? was it not oute of the churche of Christ: what were he the worse els for ye putting out, and was it oute of an vnknowen church? And whan he commaunded to receiue the man after his penaunce into the church again, in to what churche commaunded he to receiue him? Was it notinto the church ofChrist? What were hee the better els for the reciuing? And was it an vn- knowen church that he was receiued into? If these folke wyll say that he was put oute of an vnknowen churche, and receiued into an vnknowen churche againe: than shall they fare muche like, as if they woulde set vp a gate in the middes of new market heath, and than go through to & fro, and say they goe in and oute, where no man could tell whan they were within & whan they were without, but if ys dore were deuised for them with three trees for the nones of a playn homely fashion, and wyth a strynge by the halfe keepe them plume right vnder, the hawnse tayed strayght vp for swaruing. Saint Paule sayeth, that God hath ordeyned in hys church diuers maner of orders, firste apostles, secondlye pro- phetes, thirdely doctours, and then powers, and then ys giftes of healing, help and reliefe, gouernaunces, the diuerse kindes of languages, and interpretacions of the scripture. Nowe seeth euerye man well ynough, that these orders bee not in vnknowen churches, for these be thinges wel knowen and these persons wel knowen by theim, and God by this order of these great giftes, specially setteth theim out to the shew. Wherupon it foloweth that the church of Chryste must be a knowen church. S. Paule sayth also, let twoo or three of the pro- hetes speke, & let the remnaunt iudge. Now these remenaunt that shal iudge, shal thei be knowen folke or vnknowen? And he also ys speaketh, of whose word they shall iudge, shall he be knowen or vnknowen? If both he that speketh and al the remenaunt that iudge vpon hym muste needes be knowen, and no man doubteth but that thapostle there speaketh of ye church of Christ: what question is there then but that S. Paule sheweth vs well, that the church of Chryst must be a church knowen? When saint Paule also biddeth the Corinthians, that rather then they [Gi] should sew afore Painim iudges, they should appoint for iudges of their own, euen such as were contemptible in the church: he ment not yt an vnknowen company should appoint vnknowen iudges. And therefore it appereth plaine, that S. Paules minde was farre from these mennes imaginacion, which now would haue the church of Christ vnknowen. When saint Paule also sayth vnto ye orinthies, do ye contempne the churche of God, and make them ashamed ys haue not of their own: no man doubteth but that he there calleth the church the whole knowen company. Also where he gyueth certain orders to be obserued in the church, speciallye at the diuine seruice, as that men should be bare hedded and women couer theyr heddes, and some suche other thinges, ys blessed apostle well foresaw that there would contencious heretykes arrise, & bring al such good ceremonies in debate & question, & laboure to haue them sette at light. And therefore to put all suche heretikes to silence, as would wyth babeling put downe the good vertuous ceremonies of the church, he sayd, If any man wyll be contencious, we haue no such custome nor the church of God. Now is it playn here by S. Paule, ys he meaneth not an vnknowen church. If they regarde not S. Paule, yet at the lest wyse let them conslder then, when our sauiour commaunded himself, that vpon him that would neyther amende by secret warning, nor by warning before two or three wytnesses, we shoulde finally complaine vnto the churche: he ment not perde that they shoulde complaine vnto an vnknowen church, but either he ment that men shoulde goe to an open knowen church to complaine, a church that they might sone find and haue recourse vnto, or elles he mocked his hearers, if for their vttermost remedy he would sende them to a church vnknowen, such one as they should neuer finde, or if they hitted it by hap, coulde not yet wyt whither it were it or no. What wretch coulde thus thinke of Christ, which is the very way & trouth? For by that meanes the way of Christ, yea ys way that is very Christ himselfe, shoulde not set vs in the right way, but leade vs oute ofthe waye, and make vs walke about in a mase, wher we should neuer finde the way oute, if he woulde bid vs seke out ye church of electes, or ys church of onely good folke. For thys lyeth hid in the hart, and as our lord sayd to Samuel man seeth those thinges that appere, but God it is that loketh into ye harte. And also no man knoweth whyther he be worthy loue or hatered. Saint Paule also sayth: I know nothing in my conscience, but yet by that am I not iustified. Nowe if no man knoweth thys of himselfe, whither he be good or no: muche lesse knoweth hee this of a nother man, of whome in such secret thinges we must nedes leaue the iudgement vnto god, as S. Paule in ye same place warneth vs and sayth. Doe not ye therfore iudge afore the time, vntyl our lord come which shall illumine the hyd thinges of the darknesse, & shall make open the counsayles of ys hartes. And therfore good readers, a man to affirme that we should go seke ye secrete vnknowen church of electes, to complain vnto vpon hym that had wronged vs & woulde not amende, were no lesse then playnely to deny the ghospell, and blasphemousely to impute and ascribe vnto Christ, ys he would illude, & deceiue his disciples. But then vnto many of these places of scripture afore remembred, wil frere Barns & those felowes aunswere, as he aunswereth afore to those wordes of Christ: <2dic ecclesie,>2 that is to wit that al these be but particuler churches. Whereunto I haue aunswered frere Barns afore, albeit ys it is as euery man may se, an inuencion so fonde of it self, that it requireth no aunswere. For wel ye wote syth the vniuersall church is one whole church gathered and made of the particuler churches, as of his membres: howe were it possible that euerye particuler church were a church knowen, and the whole vniuersal church being made of particuler knowen churches, should be a churche vnknowen? And yet because frere Barns maketh, as thoughe such woordes were ment but of particuler churches, he may see ys our sauiour him self said vnto his apostles, he that wyll be chiefe amonge you, let him be as the minister. He spake not this specially of any particuler church of anye one place, but he spake it of his whole church, and for his chief shepherd of his whole flok, for him ys should be the chief of his apostles. For among them began to ryse ys question & contencion, which of them should be ye chief And it clereli appereth, ys sith he ther declared ys there shoulde be one chief, he ment therby ys it should be a knowen church, for of an vnknowen company [Giv] can there be none chiefe. And then sith hee woulde the chiefe ruler or minister should be knowen, how could it be that the churche, ouer whych he shoulde be chiefe, and vnto which he should be minister, should be vnknowen? Moreourer saynt Paule saith, ys workes of the fleshe bee manifest and open, which are these, adultery, fornicacion, vnclen- nesse, wantones, idolatry, wichcraft, enmighty, lawyng, emulacion, and strife, wrath, contencions, sedycyons, heresyes, enuy, man- slaughter, dronkenes, banketynges. Lo saynt Paule good christen reders saith that heresyes, be such open knowen thinges, as is adultery, fornicacion or idolatry. And wherby be the heresies so open: not alway by playne open scripture, for by the scripture diuerse of the great false errours, thoughe the trouth be by the scripture, when it is throughly considered the stronger, yet is it at the lestewise in the meane whyle dysputable and semeth doutefull. How bee then the heresyes so manifestly knowen for false as manslaughter is knowen for sinne? Surely because eche of those heresies is a point holden againste the comen knowen catholike fayth, ys is to wyt agaynst the faith of the comen knowen catholike church. For euer more from the beginning as sone as any man began to holde an oppinion agaynst any thing that the whole knowen catholike church belieued, forthwith it was therby perceiued, knowen, and reproued for an heresye. And he that first brought it vp, and those that after fell to him, wer if they mended not vpon charit- able warning, put out of the catholike churche, as Lucifer and his partakers were put out of heauen, according to the counsaile of S. Paule, that sayeth that man that is an heretike, after ones or twise warning eschew him, knowing surely that the man is paruerted. And as he sayeth also in a nother place, put away ys euill man from you. And when he is put away by anye particuler churche, he is put quite out of all the whole catholyke or vniuersall church. For not only euery particuler congregacion or company, but also euery particuler person of the catholike church, is called catholike because all the particuler membres togither, make but one catholyke or vnyuersall church. And therfore, like as he ys is accursed lawfulli out of a particuler church, is accursed out of ys whole catholike church, because that same particuler churche doth it as a part and as ys minister of the whole catholike churche in that it lawfully doth: so the man ys is offended by his brothers false doctrine or other euill behauiour, & is for his obstinate heart driuen according to the bidding of Chryst to complayne to the church, and thatif he then doe not heare and obay the church, he shal be taken not as a Paynim only, but also as a very publican, ys is to say he shall be put out of the church as one of ye worst kind of Paynims, for some Paynim ys lacketh the ryght fayth, hath yet honest worldly condicions, but he that wil not be reformed by the church, Christ byddeth that he shalbe voided the church, & repu- ted and taken of the church, not onli as a faythlesse felow, but also as a very false cankered knaue, that would breke not only al religion, but also al honest order, as do these freres that wed nunnes: this man I saye that so complaineth to the perticuler church, complayneth to the catholike churche. For the oflicers of the particuler church be officers of ys catholike church, sith euery particuler churche & euerye particuler person also of the catholique churche, is as I haue told you, for the entyre vnity of ys whole catholique church, called catholike. And therefore frere Barns solucion gyuen vnto that place of the ghospell, whiche I haue before in myne eyghte booke aunswered & auoided, is not worth a rushe. Nowe that euery particuler faithfull person of the catholike church, though this worde catholike signi- fieth vniuersall, is yet called catholike, ye perceiue by the very comon maner of euery mannes talking, wherin euery man sayth of an here- tike, This man is no catholike man. And of him in whom they perceiue by his faithful communicacion or his good verteouse christen workes, a good zele to the catholike fayth and doctrine, thei say, This is a good catholike man. But yet because ye shal ye more surely see, that this maner of speakyng is neyther of late newly begon nor yet arisen of nought, but risen vpon ye entire vnity of the whole catholik church, and that al those that are accursed lawfully out of any church, are accursed out of ys whole catholike church, & that ye maye also perceiue, ys the very catholike church hath euer ben a true knowen church against al heretikes, as all the sectes of here- tyques haue bene euer knowen [Gi] false churches, departed and put out of it & makyng themself partyes agaynst it: all the olde holy writers in euery age doe full and playne declare it. For saint Austine saith in hys booke agaynst the Manicheis, that the thinge which among other thinges helde hym in the comen knowen churche from all the sectes of heretiques was euen ye very name of catholike, by whych name the very ryght faythful christen church was vniuersally knowen from all the false professed fayth of faythlesse christened heretikes. We may perceiue also by old autentike writers, that at such time as some heresyes were so stronge and mighty ys they had gotten into their secte the strength of greate princes of christendome, and cor- rupted also no little parte of the clergy, & therwith were waxen so firce and so maliciouse, that they caused euil peruerted prynces to dryue the good faithfull bishoppes out of theyr bishoprickes, and the false heretyques intruded by force and violence into theyr places, and many vertuouse people ofys right fayth, were by the heretikes meanes put to great trouble, and by all the meanes that possible coulde bee deuised was it labored to suppresse ye very faith, and bringe vp ys false heresyes in stede: yet could they neuer whan they had all done, finde the meane, but ys euer more this word catholike was the comen knowen worde running in euerye mannes mouthe, that made the difference betwene the true church and theirs, and betwene euery perso true churche and euery person of their vngracyouse secte, in so far- forth that a good holy vertuouse man of the true catholique church, if he mette with an other christen man whom he had not lately seene, lest he might happe vnware to meddle with ani heretike of those, whose whole secte was accursed, would ere he medeled wyth hym demaunde and aske hym firste, arte thou a catholyque man? By which confessed, was included the detesting of all maner kyndes of heresye. And this question whither he were catholike, woulde a very holye vertuouse man not let to aske, of him whome he had harde or knowen before such heresyes begon, to haue ben emprisoned by Painims, and to haue suffred much martirdome for Christes sake. For yet if he should for al that haue stiffely swarued from any pointe of the catholike fayth, that the catholike churche belieued, he would haue estemed al his martirdome so little, that he would according to the counsail of S. Iohn, not so much as haue vouchsafed to bid him ones good morow. Now whan ys one holy man asked an other, art thou catholike, what ment he by ys question? dyd he (trow you) meane to haue him tell him, whither he were one of Gods eternall electes certainely predestinate to glory, which onely sort is sayth Tindall, the catholike church, or whyther he were a good holye verteouse man, so pure and cleane withoute spotte or wrincle, that S. Peter myght finde no faute in him, which onely sort is sayth Barns the catholike churche? I suppose nay neither nother. For if he had asked hym these twoo questions, he would haue aunswered vnto the firste, that he hoped ye. But whither he so wer or not, god coulde tell and not he. And vnto the second I dare well say he would not haue failed ful shortly to say nay. But whan that vnto the question asked him, whither he wer catholike or not, he would aunswere so boldly ye: he wist well that by that woorde was no more ment, but whither he were of the catholyke church, not fallen therefro, nor put out therof for ani notable crime or ani maner scisme or heresy. For whither he were in liuing a good man or an euil, ys tother had not such cause to be by & by so curious & inquisytiue, as at the firste meeting to de- maunde him forthwith the question. But whan the heresies were so rife, lest he shoulde negligently fall in felouship of some man that were excommunicate, hee thought hymselfe bounden in that point to be circumspect, so that ye maye good christen readers well and clerely see, that though the catholike church be holy, yet neuer holye man toke it as these heretikes take it, ys euery catholike man or woman, that is to wit euery membre of the catholyque churche, is holy in holy liuing, so that for lacke of knoledge who be they, the catholike church shoulde bee a churche vnknowen. For wheras all ys olde holy doctours & saintes of euery age, write so full & so whole, & so consonantly togither against al kindes of scismes & heresies & clerely declare ys thei which in such wise depart out of the holy catholike church, can neuer haue remision of theire sinnes, nor neuer can be saued, but if thei retourne vnto ye catholike church again: euery child [Giv] may sone see that all those holy saintes call ys holy catholyke church of Chryst, in onely whiche the truthe of doctryne and holinesse of grace is had, no nother church but the comen knowen catholike church, out of which all the knowen seuerall scatered sectes of heretikes and scismatikes doe depart. Wherfore syth I haue good chrysten readers, wel and playnely proued you, by reason, by scripture, and by olde holi saintes inter- pretours of the scripture, that the very catholike church of Christ is and must nedes be a knowen church, and cannot be hid nor vnknowen, if our sauiour say truth him- self, which is him self the truth, and therfore cannot saye but truth, and he sayth as ye wote well of his owne very church, That cytie can not be yd that is set vpon an hill, meaning that his own citie the church first and principallye sette vppon him- selfe, can not be but knowen: I wil with this finishe the first part, & nowe make you playne the second, that is to wit ys none other church in earth is Christes churche, but only thys commen knowen catholike church of ours. The proofe of which second part not onely foloweth, but also confirmeth ye wote well the first, syth euery thing ys proueth Christes churche to be this knowen churche, proueth it also to be a knowen churche. For tllough it might be a knowen church and yet not this knowen churche, but some other knowen church then thys: yet canne it by no meane bee thys knowen church but lf it be a knowen church. The seconde poynt, that is to wit, that the very Church of Christe here in earth, is this comen knowen churche of ours. the first proofe of this, wil I first presuppose ys thinge that is in dede true, that is to wit ys I haue allredy proued that the very church is a church knowen. And than wyll I ioyne therto the con- fession of our aduersaries the heretikes, which affirming ys the very church cannot bee knowen, do therby ye wote wel aflirme, that none of all their knowen churches is the veri church, nor none other be ours. For whan thei deny our knowen church and all other they deny ye wote wel al other. Than say I to them thus. The very church is a knowen churche. But ye confesse your own selfe it is none of all your knowen churches, nor anye other knowen church ys might be assygned: ergo but if ye voide well that it is a knowen church (which is impossible for you) ye be dryuen either to confesse that the very church is this knowen church of ours, or els to confesse at the lestwise that standing stil in your olde froward heresye, ye goe clerelye aboute to leaue Christe here in earth no very church at al. Wherin ye be than conuicted of ys very worst errour, and the most froward foly that any frantike heretike coulde bee brought vnto. For this were bothe agaynste the playne open scrypture and agaynst your owne reason, and against your owne clere agrement euer more graunted before. But nowe for the proofe that this commen knowen catholike church is the very church, whyche proueth as I say the first poynte also, ys the very church is a knowen church: I shall here agayne summaryly resume those twoo reasons, which I haue alredy so defended agaynste Tindall, that euery childe may perceiue them for clere. Of which twoo the first is an argument often made by saint Ciprian, the effect whereof is this. The very churche of Christ must needes be that church that had his beginning with Christ and his apostles, and hath ben kepte and contynued by continual succession from that beginning before all heresies, & whych church is the tree & the very stocke, oute of whych and from which all the sectes of heresies be sprongen, and as withered blasted braunches be fallen of But the church continued from the beginning, out of which all sectes of heretiques bee comen, and from which they be fallen, is the comen knowen catholike church: ergo the comen knowen catholike church is the very true church of Chryst. Thys argument hath Tindall sore labored to soyle, as I haue shewed you in my syxt booke. Whereby ye may perceiue, that the effect of all hys solucyon shortly standeth in this, that where as I say that the church that was before al the sectes of heretikes, and out of which all they be comen, is the very church, he denieth not that directely, nor he denyeth not but expressely confesseth, ys thys comen knowen catholyke church is by continuall succession the same church, ys was begun by Christ & by his apostles, nor he denieth not, ys al ys sectes of here[Gi]tikes haue gone out of the same church but he denieth that all that goe out of ys same church be heretikes. For he sayth that there may goe oute of ys same church, not only false heretikes for heresye, but also true faithfull folke for the true fayth. But againste thys solucion of Tindall standeth not onely S. Ciprian, but also all the holy doctours & sayntes both new & olde vnto our owne daies, and thei lay against Tindafl ys wordes of S. Iohn, that saith of ys heretikes departing out of the churche. They bee gone out ofvs but they were not of vs. For if they had bene of vs, they woulde haue abyden with vs. By which wordes saint Iohn sheweth, not only ys heretikes go out of the church (which thing Tindal confesseth) but also that all they which go out of the church, be not of the church, which thing Tindal denieth. But now as for S. Ciprian and al ys remenaunt, saint Iohn ys euaungelist & al, Tindall weneth to shake of ws a proper inuencion as it semeth to himself, of a similitude betwene the sinagoge of the Iewes and the church of Christ. For he sayth that like as Christe and hys apostles departed out of the church of ys Iewes, because the doctrine thereof was then corrupted and waxen false, & therefore by theyr departing out therof were not heretikes, but were themselfe become the very church, so sayeth Tindall, syth thys comen knowen vniuersall church of Christ hath ben this .viij. hundred yaere cho rupted, and the doctrine thereof all this while fals, we (sayth he) that in the time of such corrupcion and falshed do depart out therof, be not heretikes, but we be ys very church, because we go fro the church of them that now be heretikes. Nowe good readers, in what wise I haue auoyded at length, & refuted clerely this proper feate inuension & euasion of Tindall, ye may see before in my sixt booke. But thys shall I shortlye saye besyde for this present, ys by thys maner of aunswere Tindall maketh God a breker of the promises, which he hath made vnto his church in scrypture, to be therwith al dayes vnto the ende of ys worlde assistent himself & with himself his holy spirite sent by him- self to teach his churche & to leade it into euery trouth. This promise had he by Tindalles tale broken if he had suffered this eyghte hundred yere, ys doctrine of his church to be false, & fallen into so many dampnable errours, as Tindall layeth to our charge. And therefore I weene that euery wise man wil thinke, ys it were no dampnable errour to belieue, ys rather Tindall lyeth, then ys our sauiour would so farre breke his promise ys he hath so faithfully made. Moreouer sith euery thyng muste nedes haue a begynning, & that Tindall cannot (I trow) to thys say nay himself, but ys though the Iewes did vse to suffre al their dissonaunt & contrary belieuing sectes to dwell & abide togither, yet the guise of Christes church hath euer ben from the beginning to this present tyme, to suffer therin no such confusion of contrary beliefes in the necessary pointes of doctrine to the distruccion of soules, but euermore those that first began them, the church hath put them oute shortly, & they haue gotten themselfe oute of the church & departed, hauing no power to abide therein, but as sone as the deuyll had ones entred into them by theire heresies, they ranne out openly from the church of Christ into the church of hell, as the hogges after ys legion of deuilles entred ones in vnto them, had none hold of themself, but ranne hedling into the sea: now being the perpetual custome of the catholike churche from the begynning, according to ys bidding of S. Paule let there be no scismes among you, but all you say one thinge, and also if there be an heretike, then after ones or twise warning estew marke that S. Paule sayth not dispute with him, but warne him and after eschew him if hee leaue not hys heresye, for that euer man should be able to gyue a reason of hys fayth and hope vnto euerye man that would aske him, and that ys curate shoulde be ready to teach the ignoraunt ys is yet vntaught: yet those that would agaynst ye wel knowen comon belieued pointes of the church begyn a contrary doctrine, he would thei should be reproued in the matter, and theyre folye and falshed by al maner meanes openly declared and proued in their faces to their rebuke and shame, but not in such wise reasoned and disputed wyth them, as ys it shoulde bee graunted to bee a thynge doubtefull and debatable, and yet vncertayne tyll it bee better consydered, but that in such thinges they shoulde be warned and reproued and auoyded, and no man after vouchsafe but if they mended to bidde them ones God spede: therfore as I began to saye, this being from the begynnyng of the churche [Giv] the perpetual guise & custome, and that custome grounded vppon the scripture of god, ye see well good readers that the church could not this eight hundred yere togither be fallen into such dampnable heresyes. For you perceiue wel ys euery thing must nedes haue a beginning, and this thing could haue none. For if these thinges which ys church now belieueth, and as Tyndal sayth this eyght hundred yere hath belieued, concerning purgatory and holy dayes, and fasting daies, and praying to saintes, and going in pilgrimages, and belieuing in ys sacrament of the aulter, and beleuing that it were not lawefull for munckes & freres and nunnes ones vowing chastitie afterwarde to wed togither: & many such other like: if these heretikes thinges I saye be heresyes, and all they that haue belieued thus all this.viij. hundred yere, than not onely they that firste beganne them, and thei that after folowed theim therin, would haue departed out of the church, as all other heretikes euer dyd, and as these heretikes do now, but also ye church that was good and true before these heresies began, would ye wote wel haue condempned and auoided for heretikes.viij.C. yere ago, those persons that began them first, and so forth euer after al such as would rayse them againe, as they did and euer haue done, the Arrians and euery other sect of heretikes synce. And so could ye wote wel ys heretyques neuer haue obteined ouer ys good church so farre, as to be the church or to be taken for the church, and.viij.C. yere togyther continually to succede the church and the verye churche that was before suffered to vanishe away, as it were if Tindall told vs true. For other succession hath it not then onely thys church, but if all the sectes togyther doe succede and continue it which be gone out therof, of all which sectes eche contrarieth other. For no one secte of them all doe these folke assigne the successour of that olde church. Also these sectes resuscitate and reise vp againe diuerse of the same heresyes, which the olde church of.ix. hundred yere a go & of a thousand yere ago condempned. And therefore they can not be the successour of ys olde church, but be gone as wel oute of that as out of the church of this.viij. hundred yere last passed, out of which they confesse themselfe gone. Finally all the whole churche from the beginning this.xv.C. yere hath belieued ys good workes wrought in faith, hope, and charity, shall be rewarded in heauen, and that it is well done to go in pil- grimages, and to pray done to saintes and to pray for all christen soules, and that the prayour and almoyse deede of good christen folke here, doth helpe to relieue the soules in the paynes of purgatory, & that the very blessed body and blood of Christ is in the sacrament of the aulter, and that therfore it is ther to be honoured, and that no person professing and vowing chastitie, may for hyS pleasure lawefully breake his vow and wedde, and so forth of mani such other thinges like. These thinges hath (I saye) There can be no more found of this.ix. booke wrytten by Syr Thomas More.